Evening gents,

This may be a hold over from prior editions for me, but it came up in the last GT I attended, and again last night in a game I played. The crux of the question revolves around assaulting a unit that is not 'in' cover, but is 'behind' cover.

Here is my poor attempt at a diagram. Neither model is in cover:

.........A
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
........B

A is the assaulting unit. B is the target unit. X is difficult terrain.

Here are the relevant rules from the 5th edition rulebook:

Pg 34 Moving Assaulting Models
"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model must be the closest to the enemy..."

"Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route."

"Roll for difficult terrain or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed..."

Pg 36 Assaulting Through Cover
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see pg 34), any models in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must make the relevant terrain test before moving."

So, here is the question:

If I charge model B with model A, and model A has enough movement to move around the terrain, may I do that without a terrain test? Or do the above referenced rules mean I must make a difficult/dangerous terrain test, as crossing the terrain is the "shortest possible route"?

Does the phrase "if necessary" when describing difficult/dangerous terrain rolls indicate that it is only "necessary" for me to go through the terrain, if I can't make it around the terrain? Does the phrase "will have to go through" on page 36 (as opposed to "must") have an impact?

Thanks

*edited for clarity

If the shortest possible route is through cover, roll for movement.

That move is not optional.

The REST can go around, if that helps.

Yes the first model must go through, so the unit takes the test. If the shortest route for the closest model was not through cover, the rest of the unit could move around it - assuming they had enough movement to do this AND get into B2B.

^^^
+1 to both above

To clarify your confusion the "if necessary" is there to say "if the model moving the shortest route had to go through cover he needs to make a terrain test" It does not allow you to avoid the previous part of the rule, where you have to move via the shortest route (in your example's case - through the cover).

in the rulebook it states that you move the shortest route possible. And if any of the assaulting unit, would have to take terrain to get to any of the defenders then a test is taken. So even if squad X has some guys in front of the sandbags (-) then squad Y will have to take terrain if any of Y could potentially reach any of X that were begind the terrain (-) example:

XXX
-------
XX

YYY


Cheers!

Iago is correct.

The first assaulting model must move along the shortest possible route. Shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Further, all models must attempt to reach base contact if possible. Thus if a 6" move would allow one of the other assalting models to reach base contact, but ONLY if he went through difficult terrain to get there, you still have to test.

I disagree with Iago and Mannahnin. As long as the first model may move into BtB via the shortest route possible, and that route is not through difficult terrain, then you can choose whether or not you want to roll difficult terrain.

If you choose not to roll difficult terrain, then it's not possible to move through the difficult terrain, so you don't need to reach base contact with the models behind the terrain.

However, like in the example above, the closest model's shortest route is through difficult terrain, then you must make the difficult terrain roll.

The assault rules state that all assaulting models must attempt to get into base contact if possible.

Depending on the positioning of the models relative to difficult terrain, this very well may force a difficult terrain roll, even apart from the straight line move of the first model.

No, if you don't make the difficult terrain roll, then it's not possible to make BtB with models behind terrain, so you don't have to attempt it.

I see nothing in the assault rules indicating such an option.

You must move the first model directly into the closest enemy model by the shortest route.

You must attempt to move as many models into base contact you possibly can. While doing this, you must preferentially engage as many unengaged enemy models as possible.

You must move any remaining models within 2" of those in base contact if possible.

Those first two required steps can both potentially result in the unit moving into difficult, triggering a test.

But the rules for movement, which the rules for assaulting follow, with some extra steps/requirements also say that if the unit wishes to enter difficult terrain, you make a roll. If the unit does not wish to enter difficult terrain, you don't make the roll, but you also can't enter the terrain.

Therefore the "if possible" part of the assault rules. If you choose not to make the difficult terrain roll, it is not possible to reach base to base with the models in difficult terrain, therefore you don't have to try.

I understand where you’re coming from. But I believe the assault requirements (must attempt to get into base contact with as many models as possible) are more specific, and thus deny that option.

In fairness, I believe this was a different pole a while back, and only partly related to the question - as I read it.

Mannahnin has it correct. Besides, you don't know if it's possible or not until you actually roll the diffiecult terrain test.

willydstyle wrote:
Therefore the "if possible" part of the assault rules. If you choose not to make the difficult terrain roll, it is not possible to reach base to base with the models in difficult terrain, therefore you don't have to try.

The "if possible" refers to the model moving into base contact with a model it can reach that's not already in base contact with an assaulting model. If there are no enemy models in reach, it must move into base contact with one of your own units in base contact.

So if in this case;
XXX
-------
XX

YYY

Unit Y wants to assault Unit X, the first 2 Y units assault the 2 nearest X units. The 3rd Y unit must assault one of the group of 3 X units behind the cover if in reach (within 6"). If this 6" move would require moving through the cover, the entire unit must make a difficult terrain test. If this roll means the first 2 units cannot now reach the enemy unit, the assault does not happen. This is covered in the assaulting through cover section on the top right of page 36.

time wizard has it spot on.

No, time wizard has it wrong, because if you simply choose not to move through difficult terrain, because the closest model does not have to move through difficult terrain to satisfy the "shortest distance" requirement to get to the closest enemy model, then the models who are in the terrain simply can't be reached, so aren't taken into account for the procedure for moving assaulting models.

Page 34: "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models."

Page 14:"If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to [emphasis mine]the unit moves as normal [or in this case as normal for assaulting units] but may not enter difficult terrain."

Therefore you can definitely choose whether or not you want to enter the difficult terrain, as long as the closest enemy model is not in the terrain.

You are omitting the relevant passages of the assault rules, which require the assaulting player to attempt to get the maximum number of assaulting models into base contact.

This specific commandment pertaining to assault moves overrides the more general movement rule allowing the moving player to choose not to enter difficult terrain.

Based on the quotes you provided above, you could argue just as forcefully that there is no need for the first model to move by the most direct path.

Actually, you'll find that that's not a "commandment" but the rulebook actually says "If you follow this sequence you will end up with all the models in the assaulting unit in unit coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible."

Also, the 'assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible [emphasis mine in both cases]." phrase at the beginning of the section includes the phrase "if possible" as does language throughout the section.

So it is actually a summary of the movement assault rules.

Look at the paragraph above the bullet points, it specifies that a difficult terrain roll is part of the initial model's movement. It says, as part of describing the first mode's movement "roll for difficult terrain if necessary." This is not a check to see if any model in the unit require the test, it is a check only for the first model.

Then the use of "if possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

It then goes on to tell you what to do if it is not possible to fulfill that requirement.

So, the difficult terrain test is part of the first model's movement. If the first model did not need a difficult terrain test (and you chose not to take one) then when the following models cannot enter the difficult terrain, you both have rules for how to move them, and you have satisfied the "as many models as possible" description because it simply wasn't possible to reach those models in terrain.

willydstyle wrote: So, the difficult terrain test is part of the first model's movement. If the first model did not need a difficult terrain test (and you chose not to take one) then when the following models cannot enter the difficult terrain, you both have rules for how to move them, and you have satisfied the "as many models as possible" description because it simply wasn't possible to reach those models in terrain.

Look at page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover' - "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}
You must follow the rules for assaulting models,
1-closest model must move in base contact with nearest enemy
2-each model must end in coherency with a model that already moved
3-if possible the model must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model
4-if not, move into base contact with already engaged model
5-if not, move within 2" of a friendly engaged model
6-if not, stay in coherency

So following the assault rules, you must move all of your models into contact if possible. This is not an optional rule. That was why I said what I did about the earlier diagram. If I have 8 models assaulting your 8 models, the closest has to move into base contact with the closest. I can then move the rest in any order I wish. But I have to move into base contact with as many of your models as possible (remember, no holding back) and if any of the models would have to move into or over difficult terrain, a difficult terrain test must be taken for the entire unit.

You don't have an option of saying you aren't going to move a model into base contact because it would have to move through difficult terrain. If it is possible for the model to assault, even through the terrain, it has to.

I hope I explained it clearly, sometimes when I re-read it, it comes out confusing.

You're forgetting a few big "if possibles" and "will have to"s.

If you don't make the difficult terrain test as part of moving the first mini, then none of the other models will have to go through difficult terrain.

Honestly, I think that page 36 contradicts the rules written on page 34.

Willydstyle therein lies the problem with your interpretation. If you find there is one interpretation that causes rules to conflict, and another that does not, a good rule of thumb is to go with the one that causes no conflict.

Except the rules don't give us any mechanism for determining whether or not a model will need to move through cover except for the first model moved.

willydstyle wrote: You're forgetting a few big "if possibles" and "will have to"s.

If you don't make the difficult terrain test as part of moving the first mini, then none of the other models will have to go through difficult terrain.

No, look at the diagram I referred to.

XXX
-------
XX

YYY

Unit Y wants to assault Unit X, the first 2 Y units assault the 2 nearest X units. The 3rd Y unit must assault one of the group of 3 X units behind the cover if in reach (within 6") because the rules say that each model must assault an unengaged enemy model if in reach. If this 6" move would require moving through the cover, the entire unit must make a difficult terrain test.

THe rules on page 36 says that if any model goes through difficult terrain, then the entire unit needs to take a difficult terrain test. Read the rest of the rule because it then goes on to give the disadvantages of having to do this.

willydstyle wrote: Honestly, I think that page 36 contradicts the rules written on page 34.

No, it actually supports them. The rules balance out assaults. I assault you, I get +1 attacks on the charge. I assault you through terrain, I still get +1 on the charge, but you strike first because my initiative is reduced to 1.

The reason the test is made when any model in the unit hasg to cross difficult terrain is to prevent assaulting units from trying to make an "end run" around cover to negate the benefit of cover. This also clarified the assauting through cover dilemma in 4th edition.

Yes it does. As stated above, you need to try and get them all in b2b with as many unengaged models as possible. There are so many different possible placements of models that it is impossible to delineate each possible scenario, so it does not give us a direct mechanism other than to measure and see where the models can go. If they can make it by not going through DT, then fine. But if they would not otherwise reach b2b without going then you need to make the check - imo.

willydstyle wrote:Except the rules don't give us any mechanism for determining whether or not a model will need to move through cover except for the first model moved.

Yes they do. Again, page 36, top of the page, right hand column, under ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER , "If, following the rules for MOVING assaulting models (SEE PAGE 34) any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain...." doesn't get much clearer than that.
Doesn't say if, etc, the first model, it says any.

But if the first model doesn't roll difficult terrain, than "any" model doesn't have to, and in fact cannot.

You do not roll DT tests for models, only units.

If one model would have to go through DT in order to satisfy the assaulting rules, than the unit does.

willydstyle wrote:But if the first model doesn't roll difficult terrain, than "any" model doesn't have to, and in fact cannot.

I'm afraid you're not following the rules on page 34. I've listed them a few times.

X X X X X enemy unit
******** wall
X additional enemy model part of unit

Y Y friendly unit (assaulting and 3" away from red X)

Step 1 - Blue Y moves into base contact with red X (Page 34, 2nd paragraph under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS')
Step 2 - Yellow Y has to move into base contact with X model, but not the red one. (page 34 bullet point 2)
To do so, it must move over the wall. To do that, it must make a difficult terrain test. Therefore the unit makes a difficult terrain test. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER' )
If they roll a 3, then blue Y can still assult, but yellow Y will now have to assault red X because the yellow X models are no longer in reach. (page 34 2nd bullet point)
If they roll a 1, then blue Y can't reach red X so the assault does not take place. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER', "...such test might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy.")

I really don't see how I can explain it any clearer than this. Maybe someone else can explain it better?

I think you have done a perfect job of explaining it. If that does not convince someone, I doubt they can be convinced.

Thanks Dracos!

Exactly. Well explained.

I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

willydstyle wrote:I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

Okay, we can agree to disagree!
Just curious if you disagree with my logic or with the rules?
If you disagree with the rules, you can just houserule whatever you wish.
However, you would have to houserule a manner of assaulting that is in conflict with the rules.

The part that bothers me is you have to start moving the models, or at least measuring the distances, before you can know if you need to roll a difficult terrain test.

I can see a scenario where not until you have moved all but one of your units it becomes clear you need a difficult terrain test for the last guy, only to roll not a 6 and move them all back?

The rules imply that by following them you should be able to tell if a difficult terrain test is needed before moving a single model.

With any model triggering difficult terrain tests this sounds impossible for certain scenarios. (Unless you can visualize every move in your head along with how your bases will line up changing the move for the next model etc etc).

time wizard wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

Okay, we can agree to disagree!
Just curious if you disagree with my logic or with the rules?
If you disagree with the rules, you can just houserule whatever you wish.
However, you would have to houserule a manner of assaulting that is in conflict with the rules.

I don't disagree with the rules. I think the rules support my interpretation better.

scarab5 wrote:The part that bothers me is you have to start moving the models, or at least measuring the distances, before you can know if you need to roll a difficult terrain test.

I can see a scenario where not until you have moved all but one of your units it becomes clear you need a difficult terrain test for the last guy, only to roll not a 6 and move them all back?

The rules imply that by following them you should be able to tell if a difficult terrain test is needed before moving a single model.

With any model triggering difficult terrain tests this sounds impossible for certain scenarios. (Unless you can visualize every move in your head along with how your bases will line up changing the move for the next model etc etc).

Which is why you are told to choose whether or not to roll difficult terrain by the movement rules, with a restriction based on the assault rules that if the first model must go through difficult terrain you have to roll.

willydstyle wrote: Which is why you are told to choose whether or not to roll difficult terrain by the movement rules, with a restriction based on the assault rules that if the first model must go through difficult terrain you have to roll.

Yes which is covered by the rules on page 34. You are still not following the rules on page 36, which again are;
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}

You are selectively trying to use 1 or 2 relevant rules while ignoring this last one.
I'll leave it at this. I don't believe anything I post at this point is going to change your mind.

I have to say Willydstyle is right on this one. Most of you guys have the sequencing way off.

Step one: you move the first model up to the enemy unit in a straight line. If this would bring you through difficult terrain, you have to test. If it would not bring you through difficult terrain, you may test, but no rule requires you to do this.

Step two: another model follows the first one into the charge. If this would bring the model through difficult terrain, it would require a difficult terrain test for the unit to move. The problem here is that it is too late to make a new test.

What you guys are arguing is that you need to pre-measure to see if you need to make a difficult terrain test before you start moving your models. This is expressly forbidden by the rules, as nothing told you to make any measurement until you actually start moving, which is after the test.

It's that "if" that's the key for my following it the way that Willydstyle is laying it out.

A non-tested move has been made, therefore it is not possible to test for the potential of moving into the terrain. That being the case, move on to what how you can move models that can't enter the terrain.

thebetter1 wrote: I have to say Willydstyle is right on this one. Most of you guys have the sequencing way off.

Step one: you move the first model up to the enemy unit in a straight line. If this would bring you through difficult terrain, you have to test. If it would not bring you through difficult terrain, you may test, but no rule requires you to do this.

What? If you are not moving through difficult terrain, why would you take a difficult terrain test?

thebetter1 wrote:Step two: another model follows the first one into the charge. If this would bring the model through difficult terrain, it would require a difficult terrain test for the unit to move. The problem here is that it is too late to make a new test.

No it's not. Look at page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover' - "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}

thebetter1 wrote:What you guys are arguing is that you need to pre-measure to see if you need to make a difficult terrain test before you start moving your models. This is expressly forbidden by the rules, as nothing told you to make any measurement until you actually start moving, which is after the test.

First, you measure before moving any model. If you aren't in assault range, you don't assault. Last sentence under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS', "If the closest models is found not to be within move distance to the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved." This is not pre-measuring, this is measuring for the assault. Once you declare an assault, you can measure for each model in the assaulting unit. How else can you tell which is the closest?

Here is the sequence for moving assaulting units, again;

1-closest model must move in base contact with nearest enemy
2-each model must end in coherency with a model that already moved
3-if possible the model must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model
4-if not, move into base contact with already engaged model
5-if not, move within 2" of a friendly engaged model
6-if not, stay in coherency

So following the assault rules, you must move all of your models into contact if possible. This is not an optional rule. That was why I said what I did about the earlier diagram. If I have 8 models assaulting your 8 models, the closest has to move into base contact with the closest. I can then move the rest in any order I wish. But I have to move into base contact with as many of your models as possible (remember, no holding back) and if any of the models would have to move into or over difficult terrain, a difficult terrain test must be taken for the entire unit.

You must follow the rules for assaulting models,
You don't have an option of saying you aren't going to move a model into base contact because it would have to move through difficult terrain. If it is possible for the model to assault, even through the terrain, it has to.

You don't have to premeasure any more than you have to pre-measure to determine if the first model is in range.

Here's out to easily do it.

Step 1: Declare the assault, without pre-measuring.
Step 2: Measure the first model's straight line path. Is it within 6"? Okay, the assault is possible. Will he be forced to move through difficult? If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it. If no, move on to...
Step 3: Eyeball or measure whether any of the other models are going to be forced into difficult terrain. If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it.

Easy.

Mannahnin wrote:You don't have to premeasure any more than you have to pre-measure to determine if the first model is in range.

Here's out to easily do it.

Step 1: Declare the assault, without pre-measuring.
Step 2: Measure the first model's straight line path. Is it within 6"? Okay, the assault is possible. Will he be forced to move through difficult? If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it. If no, move on to...
Step 3: Eyeball or measure whether any of the other models are going to be forced into difficult terrain. If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it.

Easy.

Except that's not how the book tells us to do it.

Willy, I just described the physical way you execute the actual rule procedure.

Time wizard laid it out explicitly. Your interpretation requires us to ignore the following rule:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."

Actually, I've explained over and over again how it does not ignore that rule.

If you choose not to make a difficult terrain roll, then no model will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain.

So unless the first model has to make the roll, no model will be able to enter the terrain. But you have to decide at the first model, otherwise you could have a situation where the first model is in range, you move it, but then due to a difficult terrain roll you have to move it back. That doesn't jive with the procedure for moving assaulting models.

time wizard wrote:

X X X X X enemy unit
******** wall
X additional enemy model part of unit

Y Y friendly unit (assaulting and 3" away from red X)

Step 1 - Blue Y moves into base contact with red X (Page 34, 2nd paragraph under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS')
Step 2 - Yellow Y has to move into base contact with X model, but not the red one. (page 34 bullet point 2)
To do so, it must move over the wall. To do that, it must make a difficult terrain test. Therefore the unit makes a difficult terrain test. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER' )
If they roll a 3, then blue Y can still assult, but yellow Y will now have to assault red X because the yellow X models are no longer in reach. (page 34 2nd bullet point)
If they roll a 1, then blue Y can't reach red X so the assault does not take place. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER', "...such test might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy.")

I really don't see how I can explain it any clearer than this. Maybe someone else can explain it better?

@ Time wizard: That is a very good summary of the rules

willydstyle wrote:Actually, I've explained over and over again how it does not ignore that rule.

Except that your explanation disregards the phrase "any model" and act as if that clause said "the first moving model" instead.

No, I'm explaining how whether or not "any model" will have to move through the terrain is dependent on the first model.

Given your argument, next to Time Wizard's diagram (which Wyoming Fox just quoted), I think TW has the answer which more closely adheres to the RAW and my view of the RAI.

willydstyle wrote:No, I'm explaining how whether or not "any model" will have to move through the terrain is dependent on the first model.

Okay, then please cite the rule that states that, I don't see it in the rulebook.

Page 14. If you want to move through difficult terrain you have to choose whether your will or not.

The only part of an assault where a model must move through difficult terrain is if the shortest distance between the closest models is through the terrain.

After that, the rest of the models follow the rules for assaulting models.

If they are prevented from entering difficult terrain because you did not need to for the first model, then if the following models do not enter difficult terrain, they have followed the rule for engaging base to base "if possible" because it was not possible to engage those models.

All that would make it not possible for a model to assault is if it would have to move through friendly or enemy models, through a gap narrower than its base, or into base contact with a model from a unit it is not assaulting.
If any model in the unit, after the first one moves into base contact, can assault an ungaged enemy model, it must do so "if possible" and the above sentence lists what would maek it not possible.
If any model has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain to assault, the unit must make the relevant test.

If it is possible to move a model into base with an unengaged enemy model, it must be done.
If a difficult terrain check has not been made, a model may not move through difficult terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think this is about a different poll, though.

kirsanth wrote:If it is possible to move a model into base with an unengaged enemy model, it must be done.
If a difficult terrain check has not been made, a model may not move through difficult terrain.

Please re-read the rule on page 36, top right hand side of the page.

Please re-read the rules on page 14, the bottom left hand side of the page.

kirsanth wrote:Please re-read the rules on page 14, the bottom left hand side of the page.

I did. Those rules refer to moving your models. That action is taken during the Movement phase.
The rules I cited and quoted referred to moving assaulting models and assaulting through cover which are actions taken during the Assault phase.

And in the movement phase, if even 1 model in a unit is moving through the difficult terrain, the unit takes a difficult terrain test.

If any of the models have to move through difficult to make the shortest possible path, then the unit has to take the difficult test.

Rulebook Pg 36.

Shortest possible path is only needed for the first model.

I can't believe this has gone on for so long.

After you move the first model without making the test, it is ILLEGAL to make a difficult terrain test. Some of you have suggested "eyeballing" it to see whether a model will have to move through difficult terrain before the first model is moved. The rules do not support this. In fact, the information about whether a model is going to enter difficult terrain is simply not available until after you start moving the unit, at which point it is too late to take the test, which makes the difficult terrain impassible to the unit.

Not the case.

Look at Time Wizard's diagram again. Imagine that first model is 2" away from the assaulting unit, the wall is right behind it, and the rest of the unit is less than 4" from the assaulting unit.

You can see perfectly well that your assaulting models are capable of making base contact with the rear models if they take the difficult terrain test and score a 4+. Page 36 requires you to try.

Mannahnin wrote:Not the case.

Look at Time Wizard's diagram again. Imagine that first model is 2" away from the assaulting unit, the wall is right behind it, and the rest of the unit is less than 4" from the assaulting unit.

You can see perfectly well that your assaulting models are capable of making base contact with the rear models if they take the difficult terrain test and score a 4+. Page 36 requires you to try.

That is all fine and dandy when the models are set up in such an obvious way. What about a horde of 30 Orks assaulting a line of Necrons. Can you be sure they will have to take a difficult terrain test with that many models? Can you visualize the space each Ork takes up after his move making the next move require a slightly different path?

Do the rules expect us to be able to do this? What happens when 20 of the boyz move before realizing the 21st forces a test causing them all to be moved back to their original spots?

Actually I think that actually solves this rule issue, there is no way to take back a move in 40k. You either can make the move or you can not. How can you be sure you put them all back in the same spots they started in?

scarab5 wrote:That is all fine and dandy when the models are set up in such an obvious way. What about a horde of 30 Orks assaulting a line of Necrons. Can you be sure they will have to take a difficult terrain test with that many models? Can you visualize the space each Ork takes up after his move making the next move require a slightly different path?

Funny thing is.. that actually makes it easier to tell. The rules tell us a couple things:

1. You cannot hold back. If a model can possibly make base to base, it must try.
2. If just one model in the unit will have to take a difficult test to get into B2B then the unit tests as a whole.

It's pretty safe to say with a mob of 30 boys that at least one of them will have to cross difficult in that scenario thus forcing the test.

The Green Git wrote:

scarab5 wrote:That is all fine and dandy when the models are set up in such an obvious way. What about a horde of 30 Orks assaulting a line of Necrons. Can you be sure they will have to take a difficult terrain test with that many models? Can you visualize the space each Ork takes up after his move making the next move require a slightly different path?

Funny thing is.. that actually makes it easier to tell. The rules tell us a couple things:

1. You cannot hold back. If a model can possibly make base to base, it must try.
2. If just one model in the unit will have to take a difficult test to get into B2B then the unit tests as a whole.

It's pretty safe to say with a mob of 30 boys that at least one of them will have to cross difficult in that scenario thus forcing the test.

Ah sorry, I meant to say the difficult terrain is off to the sides, and would only be hit if an Ork had to run around another Ork that assaulted just before him. So unless you know how far to the sides your blob of Orks will get, you don't know until you have placed several of them.

Are your suggesting to eyeball it and make the call based on that? Not all difficult terrain tests are forced because you are assaulting units behind the terrain, it could be off to the sides that you bump into avoiding your already placed models.


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Also just thought about the nightmare of trying to determine form the blob of Orks which will go to which Necron base? The first move is not very hard, second is pretty straight forward, 15th get a bit more complicated...

*Chants* Wizard, wizard, wizard!! *chants*

There are many bounties to using cover. And one of them has been detailed above. The rules explain it, and they have been quoted over and over again... well.

If you do not wish to use these rules... then don't. All the power to you. It does not change what is written in the rulebook. We can all agree it is written there... as there are letters that have been arranged together to form sentences, and paragraphs...

Grrr, this has gone on for too long.

Iago wrote:Grrr, this has gone on for too long.

QFT!

I'm going with Wizard on this one; and I don't quite understand the other side's argument.

See, here's the key. FIRST, you declare the assault. THEN, you GET TO MEASURE.

That isn't pre-measuring, it's measuring the assault distance to see if you're in range, and you can do it for all your models. That makes it perfectly easy to tell if anyone has to go through DT. Then, at that point, BEFORE you actually move anybody, you take the DT test if you have to, based not on where the first model goes but on where everybody goes.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I'm going with Wizard on this one; and I don't quite understand the other side's argument.

See, here's the key. FIRST, you declare the assault. THEN, you GET TO MEASURE.

That isn't pre-measuring, it's measuring the assault distance to see if you're in range, and you can do it for all your models. That makes it perfectly easy to tell if anyone has to go through DT. Then, at that point, BEFORE you actually move anybody, you take the DT test if you have to, based not on where the first model goes but on where everybody goes.

And how exactly are you supposed to know how your models are going to be moving in the future? There are many different ways to make the assault move, and the rules do not even suggest that you are supposed to "look ahead" and see if you have to test before moving even 1 model.

thebetter1 wrote:And how exactly are you supposed to know how your models are going to be moving in the future? There are many different ways to make the assault move, and the rules do not even suggest that you are supposed to "look ahead" and see if you have to test before moving even 1 model.

How is this any different than having special deployment rules and requiring players to figure out a sequence of events in which all of the rules work?

solkan wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:And how exactly are you supposed to know how your models are going to be moving in the future? There are many different ways to make the assault move, and the rules do not even suggest that you are supposed to "look ahead" and see if you have to test before moving even 1 model.

How is this any different than having special deployment rules and requiring players to figure out a sequence of events in which all of the rules work?

Such as...

IMO:

The rules on Pg 34 seem to indicate that only the first model must take the shortest route, and only this model MUST test for difficult terrain if taking this shortest route.

There are obviously possibilities where some assaulting models must move through difficult terrain even though the first is not required to (for example, if the first model is out of terrain and the rest of the assaulting squad is inside) which could explain pg36.

Still, following the rules on pg34 and pg14, I feel that if a player does not declare that a model is moving through difficult terrain, it may not move through difficult terrain. As declaring movement through difficult terrain is not a compulsory part of the movement for any model other than the first, you are not forced to do it. So, it is thus not possible to move into base contact with an enemy that may be within 6 inches (or even within 1 inch) if you don't declare; and so, you can move all your models into assault with enemy units not in terrain and it still be a legal move.

IMO.
(Tau player, i don't do assault, thats just my reading of the rules)

Trasvi wrote: IMO:

The rules on Pg 34 seem to indicate that only the first model must take the shortest route, and only this model MUST test for difficult terrain if taking this shortest route.

Partially correct. Only the first model must take the shortest route, but any model moving through difficult terrain must take the test.

Trasvi wrote:There are obviously possibilities where some assaulting models must move through difficult terrain even though the first is not required to (for example, if the first model is out of terrain and the rest of the assaulting squad is inside) which could explain pg36.

Yes, true.

Trasvi wrote:Still, following the rules on pg34 and pg14, I feel that if a player does not declare that a model is moving through difficult terrain, it may not move through difficult terrain. As declaring movement through difficult terrain is not a compulsory part of the movement for any model other than the first, you are not forced to do it. So, it is thus not possible to move into base contact with an enemy that may be within 6 inches (or even within 1 inch) if you don't declare; and so, you can move all your models into assault with enemy units not in terrain and it still be a legal move.

IMO.
(Tau player, i don't do assault, thats just my reading of the rules)

The compulsory part is that after moving the first model into base contact, subsequent models must move into base contact with unengaged models if possible and if in so doing move through difficult or dangerous terrain, the entire unit must take the relevant test.

time wizard wrote:
The compulsory part is that after moving the first model into base contact, subsequent models must move into base contact with unengaged models if possible and if in so doing move through difficult or dangerous terrain, the entire unit must take the relevant test.

and hence the disagreement.
I believe the rules indicate that, unless you have chosen to (or been forced to) roll a difficult terrain test, you may not move into difficult terrain (pg14).
Thus "and if in so doing move through difficult or dangerous terrain," is a situation that can never happen. It is not possible for the assaulters to move into base contact with unengaged models if they cannot enter difficult terrain.

Pg 34 even gives an importance order of the assault movement conditions, and getting all models into btb with an unengaged model is the LEAST important. seeing as we can't fulfill the least important rule, we move to a more important one and every model just attempts to make it into Btb with an already engaged model / engaged member of their squad.

In time wizards brilliant diagram, if with the models that may have to go over the wall, you can make a 6 inch assault move that gets you into an unengaged enemy by going around the wall, then yes, because you don't need to take the shortest route, you could go around it, however, if there is no such go around the wall, you still need to assault the part of the unit behind the wall that is unengaged, and hence would have to make a difficult terrain test.
EX: Y ----- Y Y X X X X
Lets say its 6 inches for the right most member of unit X to the member of unit Y behind the wall , then after the shortest to shortest, you could choose to move the right most member around the wall to engage the enemy behind the wall, then the rest of the unit could engage around the enemy in front of the wall as long as you can keep coherency and don't need to take a test. however, if the wall is longer, or if there are other members of the unit behind the wall that you cannot reach, you will have to go over the wall to engage the most enemy models and hence, force a difficult terrain test.

Assault moves are not movement moves, and hence, you do not 'declare' you are moving through cover, either you are forced to move through cover or you are not, if you are forced to move through cover you must make a roll. it doesn't matter which member of the unit is forced to move though cover as part of the assault, if any member is so forced, you must make the roll for the whole unit. those are the rules, disregard them if you like, but know you are disregarding the rules.

Before this goes any further, it may be useful to note the previous two threads about assaulting into difficult terrain, and where those threads ended up.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244474.page "How do you play it: assaulting a unit partially in cover", and
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205011.page "Assaulting through difficult terrain, or not!".

There's one camp which says that after the assault has been declared, before the first model has moved the assaulting player may have a choice whether or not to make a difficult terrain test if the first model doesn't have to move through difficult terrain. If no difficult terrain test is made, then the unit cannot move through difficult terrain for that assault movement.

There's another camp which says that after the assault is declared, the player has to measure out all of the assault moves to determine whether a difficult terrain test is necessary, and then the assault moves are subject to that roll if needed. Measurement in this case would be done to avoid the messy situation of conducting some of the assault moves and discovering that the assault had been made in error and trying to figure out where the models originated.

There are some variations in the middle, but that's pretty much what the conclusions were. It comes down to whether or not you interpret the secondary assault movements as compelling the movement through difficult terrain or not.

Fizzywig wrote:
Assault moves are not movement moves, and hence, you do not 'declare' you are moving through cover, either you are forced to move through cover or you are not, if you are forced to move through cover you must make a roll. it doesn't matter which member of the unit is forced to move though cover as part of the assault, if any member is so forced, you must make the roll for the whole unit. those are the rules, disregard them if you like, but know you are disregarding the rules.

As you have not supplied any rules reference to support this, I will not consider it valid. Models do not make difficult terrain tests. The unit does before any models are moved.

solkan wrote:
There's another camp which says that after the assault is declared, the player has to measure out all of the assault moves to determine whether a difficult terrain test is necessary, and then the assault moves are subject to that roll if needed. Measurement in this case would be done to avoid the messy situation of conducting some of the assault moves and discovering that the assault had been made in error and trying to figure out where the models originated.

I see two major problems with this camp. Firstly, it requires predicting the future. You would have to look ahead and see which decisions you are going to make before you are required to make them.

Secondly, the rules do not require planning on getting as many models as possible into combat before the charge begins. They lay out a very specific set of rules about how to move each individual model, and then says that the sequence should have resulted in as many models as possible being in contact. This leads me to believe that it really is impossible to move through difficult terrain unless you tested first, as the unit would have ended up with more models in contact otherwise. Also, if you really were required to plan ahead to get as many models as possible in, wouldn't this also force you to move closer in the movement phase if you are able? What about being forced to run if you have fleet?

What happens if you try to assault a squad that's in area terrain if a model's only like an inch inside it? Do you still need for difficult terrain if you're within 6"?

you can move your models in any way you want them to...there's no restrictions and anyone who thinks I'm wrong plays spayz puppiez


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how fukn hot is it today zoot...i'm like melting here in me room


Automatically Appended Next Post:
how fukn hot is it today zoot...i'm like melting here in me room

Yes.

thebetter1 wrote:

Fizzywig wrote:
Assault moves are not movement moves, and hence, you do not 'declare' you are moving through cover, either you are forced to move through cover or you are not, if you are forced to move through cover you must make a roll. it doesn't matter which member of the unit is forced to move though cover as part of the assault, if any member is so forced, you must make the roll for the whole unit. those are the rules, disregard them if you like, but know you are disregarding the rules.

As you have not supplied any rules reference to support this, I will not consider it valid. Models do not make difficult terrain tests. The unit does before any models are moved.

Well, I have provided the rules in a few previous posts. BRB, page 36, right hand column under "ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER". I'm not going to quote the rule again, I've done that a few times also. Just look at the rule, it tells you who test, when they test and even why they test.
It really doesn't get any clearer than this.

solkan wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:And how exactly are you supposed to know how your models are going to be moving in the future? There are many different ways to make the assault move, and the rules do not even suggest that you are supposed to "look ahead" and see if you have to test before moving even 1 model.

How is this any different than having special deployment rules and requiring players to figure out a sequence of events in which all of the rules work?

Quite easy actually, you use that thinking machine atop your neck. If you're grasp of spatial mechanics is insufficient to do so, well, I dunno what to say.

time wizard wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:

Fizzywig wrote:
Assault moves are not movement moves, and hence, you do not 'declare' you are moving through cover, either you are forced to move through cover or you are not, if you are forced to move through cover you must make a roll. it doesn't matter which member of the unit is forced to move though cover as part of the assault, if any member is so forced, you must make the roll for the whole unit. those are the rules, disregard them if you like, but know you are disregarding the rules.

As you have not supplied any rules reference to support this, I will not consider it valid. Models do not make difficult terrain tests. The unit does before any models are moved.

Well, I have provided the rules in a few previous posts. BRB, page 36, right hand column under "ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER". I'm not going to quote the rule again, I've done that a few times also. Just look at the rule, it tells you who test, when they test and even why they test.
It really doesn't get any clearer than this.

And I have provided the rules from page 34, which say that an assault move is done like a normal move with extra rules, the rules on page 14 that tells the player to choose whether or not he wants to go through difficult terrain, and the fact that many of the assault rules use the language "as possible" or "if possible" meaning that just because there are times where it might not be possible to follow that rule does not mean that the assault move is invalidated.

willydstyle wrote:And I have provided the rules from page 34, which say that an assault move is done like a normal move with extra rules, the rules on page 14 that tells the player to choose whether or not he wants to go through difficult terrain, and the fact that many of the assault rules use the language "as possible" or "if possible" meaning that just because there are times where it might not be possible to follow that rule does not mean that the assault move is invalidated.

The rules on page 34 start by saying that you move like a normal move except that you may move within 1" of an enemy unit. The next sentence lists all of the conditions that would make an assault move impossible.

The next paragraph starts with, "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back!" This means that if it is possible for a model to get into base contact with an unengaged enemy model, it must do so! If this means that the model has to move through difficult terrain it must do so! This means the unit must take a difficult terrain test.

You don't have the option of saying that you are not going to move a model into base contact with an unengaged enemy model because to do so it has to move through difficult terrain. The rules for moving assaulting models are very clear on this. If you follow the rules bullet point by bullet point you see that this is the way you conduct an assault move.

Page 34 starts by saying to move the first closest friendly model into contact with the closest enemy model by the shortest distance. Page 36 gives the rules for assaulting through cover, which the rules on page 34 do not address. You could no more follow the rules on moving assaulting models on page 34, while ignoring those about assaulting through cover on page 36 as you could follow the rules for shooting while ignoring the rules for cover saves.

You can't say that moving an assaulting model through cover is optional when the rules on page 34 clearly spell out when it is mandatory.

And it is still not possible to move a unit into cover if no terrain check is made.

That check is optional - other than the first model.

The part that says "if possible" allows for it not being possible.

/shrug

It seems this will never be resolved. Oh well.

I thought we figured that out two threads ago?

That said, the OP question was answered on page 1 and I think we all agree on that answer.

kirsanth wrote:I thought we figured that out two threads ago?

That said, the OP question was answered on page 1 and I think we all agree on that answer.

As did GW, in a previous FAQ:

Q. If a unit charges an enemy unit that is partially in
cover (i.e. some of its models are in cover whilst others
aren’t), does it have to make a difficult terrain test, or can
it choose to just engage the models outside the cover?
A. The assault move should be resolved following the
normal rules for moving charging models, against all of
the models in the enemy unit (the chargers cannot
decide to assault only the enemies outside the cover). If
this means that any of the charging models has to enter
difficult terrain to engage an enemy, the entire unit must
take a difficult terrain test before the first charging model
is moved (so the entire unit could fail to reach
altogether!).

don_mondo wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I thought we figured that out two threads ago?

That said, the OP question was answered on page 1 and I think we all agree on that answer.

As did GW, in a previous FAQ:

Q. If a unit charges an enemy unit that is partially in
cover (i.e. some of its models are in cover whilst others
aren’t), does it have to make a difficult terrain test, or can
it choose to just engage the models outside the cover?
A. The assault move should be resolved following the
normal rules for moving charging models, against all of
the models in the enemy unit (the chargers cannot
decide to assault only the enemies outside the cover). If
this means that any of the charging models has to enter
difficult terrain to engage an enemy, the entire unit must
take a difficult terrain test before the first charging model
is moved (so the entire unit could fail to reach
altogether!).

Wonderful . . . one problem this is no longer a current FAQ, and so is no long a valid house rule.

The argument that you must test for the possibility of moving through difficult terrain is very flawed. However, I will accept it if somebody is able to write a specific set of rules listing the exact conditions required for a test to be mandatory. If you can do this in a way that the rules support, without saying anything vague like "just eyeball it" or anything else like that, then that would be sufficient for your argument.

*beats dead horse*

thebetter1 wrote:The argument that you must test for the possibility of moving through difficult terrain is very flawed. However, I will accept it if somebody is able to write a specific set of rules listing the exact conditions required for a test to be mandatory. If you can do this in a way that the rules support, without saying anything vague like "just eyeball it" or anything else like that, then that would be sufficient for your argument.

*sigh* this;

I'm afraid you're not following the rules on page 34. I've listed them a few times.

X X X X X enemy unit
******** wall
X additional enemy model part of unit

Y Y friendly unit (assaulting and 3" away from red X, exactly 6" away from yellow Y)

Step 1 - Blue Y moves into base contact with red X (Page 34, 2nd paragraph under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS')
Step 2 - Yellow Y has to move into base contact with X model, but not the red one. (page 34 bullet point 2)
To do so, it must move over the wall. To do that, it must make a difficult terrain test. Therefore the unit makes a difficult terrain test. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER' )
If they roll a 3, then blue Y can still assult, but yellow Y will now have to assault red X because the yellow X models are no longer in reach. (page 34 2nd bullet point)
If they roll a 1, then blue Y can't reach red X so the assault does not take place. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER', "...such test might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy.")

....and this;

Look at page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover' - "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}
You must follow the rules for assaulting models,
1-closest model must move in base contact with nearest enemy
2-each model must end in coherency with a model that already moved
3-if possible the model must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model
4-if not, move into base contact with already engaged model
5-if not, move within 2" of a friendly engaged model
6-if not, stay in coherency

So following the assault rules, you must move all of your models into contact if possible. This is not an optional rule. That was why I said what I did about the earlier diagram. If I have 8 models assaulting your 8 models, the closest has to move into base contact with the closest. I can then move the rest in any order I wish. But I have to move into base contact with as many of your models as possible (remember, no holding back) and if any of the models would have to move into or over difficult terrain, a difficult terrain test must be taken for the entire unit.

You don't have an option of saying you aren't going to move a model into base contact because it would have to move through difficult terrain. If it is possible for the model to assault, even through the terrain, it has to.

You do however have the option of not taking the difficult terrain test and thus making it not possible to move them as such.

*flogs away*


EDIT: MODQUISITION LORD MANNAHIN'S POST BOUGHT THE FARM. THREAD CLOSED AS THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AND GETTING FLAMY

kirsanth wrote:You do however have the option of not taking the difficult terrain test and thus making it not possible to move them as such.

*flogs away*

Of course, because you always have the option of not assaulting!

This thread still?

It's simple. You measure to find the shortest distance between units. The charging model that is closest must move first. Don't move any yet. Knowing you must engage unengaged models in the charged unit if possible, measure distances between each charging model and the charged model(s) in cover. If any of them can be reached i.e. are within 6" then you have to try to reach them. That means have to move through difficult. That means the unit takes the test. If none of the charging models are within 6" of the models in difficult then you don't have to take the test. It's really that easy.




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This thread still?

It's simple. You measure to find the shortest distance between units. The charging model that is closest must move first. Don't move any yet. Knowing you must engage unengaged models in the charged unit if possible, measure distances between each charging model and the charged model(s) in cover. If any of them can be reached i.e. are within 6" then you have to try to reach them. That means have to move through difficult. That means the unit takes the test.

If none of the charging models are within 6" of the models in difficult or can reach an unengaged, alternate model that is not in difficult then you don't have to take the test.

It's really that easy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread still?

It's simple. You measure to find the shortest distance between units. The charging model that is closest must move first. Don't move any yet. Knowing you must engage unengaged models in the charged unit if possible, measure distances between each charging model and the charged model(s) in cover. If any of them can be reached i.e. are within 6" then you have to try to reach them. That means have to move through difficult. That means the unit takes the test.

If none of the charging models are within 6" of the models in difficult or can reach an unengaged, alternate model that is not in difficult then you don't have to take the test.

It's really that easy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread still?

It's simple. You measure to find the shortest distance between units. The charging model that is closest must move first. Don't move any yet. Knowing you must engage unengaged models in the charged unit if possible, measure distances between each charging model and the charged model(s) in cover. If any of them can be reached i.e. are within 6" then you have to try to reach them. That means have to move through difficult. That means the unit takes the test.

If none of the charging models are within 6" of the models in difficult or can reach an unengaged, alternate model that is not in difficult then you don't have to take the test.

It's really that easy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread still?

It's simple. You measure to find the shortest distance between units. The charging model that is closest must move first. Don't move any yet. Knowing you must engage unengaged models in the charged unit if possible, measure distances between each charging model and the charged model(s) in cover. If any of them can be reached i.e. are within 6" then you have to try to reach them. That means have to move through difficult. That means the unit takes the test.

If none of the charging models are within 6" of the models in difficult or can reach an unengaged, alternate model that is not in difficult then you don't have to take the test.

It's really that easy.

You also have the option of not assaulting in the first place.

As noted, the discussion is just going in circles at this point. Closing.