Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN
Lanrak.

One thing, popularity.

I would love to play other games with my friends and collect miniatures for them. I love some of the Infinity range and also Warmachine/hordes and some others. But all my friends already own GW figs, we built armies a long time ago. It's a question of how much time and financial commitment has already been sunk into the 'GW' hobby and their reluctance to break from that.

One could argue that there wouldn't even be a ttmg, or much of one, without GW.

They've been around a long time, have opened doors for gamers, hobbyists, and other companies alike.

They have a huge fanbase which is widespread allowing easy contact with other gamers, as well as a larger range than any other company covering the two primary genres.

How's that for a start?

Wayfarer wrote:One could argue that there wouldn't even be a ttmg, or much of one, without GW.

They've been around a long time, have opened doors for gamers, hobbyists, and other companies alike.

They have a huge fanbase which is widespread allowing easy contact with other gamers, as well as a larger range than any other company covering the two primary genres.

How's that for a start?

TTMG was around long before GW and will probably be around long after GW have ceased to exist...

Some people say that GW introduce new youngsters into TTMG but in my experience very few of them branch off from GW (if they carry the hobby on at all). I would have to admit that there are a lot more fantasy and sci-fi games and figures out there due to the popularity of GW but fantasy and sci-fi is just a part of TTMG.

Mick

I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

You can walk into a GW shop as a complete n00b, slap your credit card on the counter and walk out with absolutely everything you need to build armies, terrain, rules, 'how to' guides, tools, paints and so on.

The staff will teach you how to play and paint, and you can even play games at the shop.

@Wayfarer, I would argue that without TTMG there wouldn't be much of a GW. They totally grew out of the already vibrant, decades old hobby of TTMG, and RPGs.

That's not to say GW haven't done a lot for wargaming, because they have.

Your depiction of fantasy and SF as the two primary genres does not recognise the enormous world of historicals, especially Ancients and Napoleonic.

You only need to go to a show like Salute or Adepticon to see that GW is a small part of the wargames world.

Wayfarer wrote:I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

If you get a chance chat to some historical gamers near where you live and possibly join in with a historical game.
All the historical gamers I know play them as 'what if?' games not 'right we have to move this unit here at this stage of the battle' games. Yes they research the armies they collect but dont you with your 40k or fantasy armies? I cant say I've ever seen an Ultramarine army in red or a followers of Khorne army devoid of red...
Mick

I'd love to meet more historical gamers but they tend to be an elusive and seclusive bunch. Much harder to find than your average GW gamer.

Wayfarer wrote:I'd love to meet more historical gamers but they tend to be an elusive and seclusive bunch. Much harder to find than your average GW gamer.

As Killcrazy said, attend a wargaming show near you or find out if there is a local independant gaming club in your area. I must warn you though if your young and mention you play GW games some may blank you (you get anal retentives in all aspects of this hobby...).

I've been gaming both historical and sci-fi/fantasy for over 30 years now and enjoy all aspects of both.

Mick

Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price, and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.
Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

My point is that most 'long term hobbeists are quite happy putting the effort in.The more effort you put in the table top minature hobby the more you get out of it!

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

I suppose GW depends on customer apathy to stop them trying out alternative rule sets?

Just some thoughts...

TTFN
lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price, and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.
Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

My point is that most 'long term hobbeists are quite happy putting the effort in.The more effort you put in the table top minature hobby the more you get out of it!

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

I suppose GW depends on customer apathy to stop them trying out alternative rule sets?

Just some thoughts...

TTFN
lanrak.

as a teen i feel insulted.

cause i have such a short attention span that i know what this months (november) standard bearer article wasn't at all anything to do with jervis bitching about new technology.

GW spoon feeds me so much that i have to put together and paint my own models ,right?

GW stores offer a good environment that can be competetive, after reading the model molester and worst sportsmanship examples threads i'm glad my local store isn't full of people who pick up models without asking or kids that chuck models at me because their 'uber' model died, we laugh and joke at our misfortune "haha i cant believe my vanguard veterans got killed by your assualt marines hahaha."

sure i could go other places and i like the look of other games but (though i am starting warmachine/hordes) i dont go to other places because 1) i dont feel like it and 2) GW stores have a better vibe to them.

Good man, twistinthunder. You just summed up my thoughts. Games Workshop seems to have a better vibe, and I love the fluff much, much more than alot of other stuff like Wm. Gw relies on the fluff to rope in/keep people imo.

Wow, this is practically trolling.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW is popular because it spoon feeds young gamers with convenient, if over priced, GW brand hobby supplies, minatures and books?
GWs sucsess boils down to better market exposure and the apparent apathy of youth then?

Historicals don't even get to pick their own colour scheme. Who's being spoonfed here?

I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

and down load free rules I can modify to my own playing prefrence.

And then play a game with someone who you've just met? At a tournament? I think not.

Hobby supplies from paints and glues to 'green stuff' scenery etc, are available at massive discounts compared to the prices charged in a GW shop!

True.

Then I still get the creativity of painting and converting , and the great social interaction of playing games.
Without the hefty GW price tag, and awful game play support!

So you get to pick a colour scheme from a history book, convert metal models, and play with NO support. Yay.

But I would need to put a lot more effort into my hobby , than just 'slapping down a credit card at a GW shop...'

The effort being, hunting down all the models you need from a dozen different manufacturers cause none of them do a complete range, then poring over a dozen different rulesets and hoping your friends will like the same one you do...

The 'GW hobby' seems to be cash dependant, and the short attension span -apathy of teens fits its marketing mode quite well.

Too slowed to be worth countering.

However, why dont older gamers move away from the GW hobby?Or do most older gamers move away from GW ,and use thier exisiting minatures in more interesting ways?

Probably cause GW ways of using miniatures is pretty interesting already. And cause we like being able to play with strangers. And go to tournaments. And probably most of all, because GW gives us a cool universe for our models to play in.

GW Hobby advantages, specifically 40k in no real order:

1. Best IP around, no universe is cooler than 40k not even reality's

2. Best miniatures

3. Actually has a longstanding history

4. Cultural impact on other geeky ways of life such as influencing the ultra-successful Blizzard Entertainment (Starcraft)

5. Video games, movie on the horizon, a library of fluff to geek away at

6. Huge network

7. Fun and easily learned rules although this could be a trait for most table top games

GW has made it easy for my two sons to get involved with TTMG. Thanks to AoBR both have a core army to play with and they can swap with each other. their saved pocket money is spent at my local GW store where I can chat with the staff about rule queries opinions on new and existing rule sets and to generally have a chit chat with staff and the gamers there. My kids get to run around plucking boxes off the shelves and harasing the red shirts asking them such questions as can space marines have Carnifexes' and "Wow! I'm going to play Ents against your Orks!".

Inevitably I have to calm them down and explain that £10 is not going to buy a land raider, land speeder, Deff Dread or Nobz box set. The staff usually give my boys good advice, the gamers give even better advice and with a couple of the older gamers and the teens settle on a miniature or box set that has weapons that could really mangle my Guard!

I can then go home look at the rules set for 40K strip out some of the boring technical aspects of the rules and while a away an hour rolling dice as both the little snots gang up on me and try to take me down!

GW make it easy for me to do these things, whilst they may have their faults the fact that my kids can get something out of the hobby, earlier than I started to, is great.

i just realise

gw is a TTMG hobby so your topic is pointless and makes no sense.

Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started? Sorry to the OP if I''m misinterpreting the tone, but it seems like you're one of the guys that was terrible at 40K fantasy, so you quit intead of trying to improve, and picked up some other game system that was so simple even an ape could win, and have now come back to troll the game you were so bad at by asking why other people enjoy it when (in your opinion) you couldn't win so clearly it sucked. I base this on the fact that your original post was made in the form of an inquiry, but then you just reverted to "GW sucks this and that, and is only made for little kids".

Again, if this isn't how it was supposed to be interpreted, my apologies. But from looking at your posts, that's the game you're playing.

Cane wrote:GW Hobby advantages, specifically 40k in no real order:

1. Best IP around, no universe is cooler than 40k not even reality's

This is true. You can literally pour over the history and background of the 40K universe for a year and not manage to read through all of it. It really is just absolutely massive, and can be compared to real historical literature in terms of quality and overall length.

2. Best miniatures

Save for the problem of bubbles and holes with the Forgeworld Resin minis, I'd have to agree to this too. As far as wargames go, the detail put into a lot of the minis is just insane. The great majority of games are more of a "That looks good enough" style. GW's sculpting team actually does extremely well. Sure, there're better looking display kits from non-wargaming companies like Tamiya, but as far as wargames minis go, GW has some of the best.

3. Actually has a longstanding history

Fantasy has been around since the mid-70's. A lot of today's Historical, Sci Fi, and Fantasy wargames are relatively new on the other hand. These new rulesets aren't as tried and true as the GW method. That's one thing I like. Sure, GW might have some problems with balancing, but as far as the overall game system goes, it's very. very solid. The idea of modifying Fantasy rules to work with a Sci Fi game helped to make it rapidly adaptable, and many Fantasy Players are able to hop seamlessly between the two games with little adjustment.

4. Cultural impact on other geeky ways of life such as influencing the ultra-successful Blizzard Entertainment (Starcraft)

+1 This as well. How many endless Memes have popped up thanks to 40K? Warcraft and Starcraft were BOTH meant to be made for Fantasy and 40K respectively, but GW didn't like the games due to their almost Goto-like adhereance (or lack thereof) to the established fluff. Not to mention that a massive amount of these new Table Top games were birthed by ex-GW employees.

5. Video games, movie on the horizon, a library of fluff to geek away at

As well as some of the largest, most widely attended single-company Games-Days in existance.

6. Huge network

That has unfortunately become bloated and rather ineffective. This seems to be a recurring trait for many large companies, some worse than others. I'd consider GW in the middle. I don't support their choice to increase costs while decreasing pk qty of their goods, but hopefully if they take anything out of this recession it'll be an understanding that they need to rethink their structuring system and come up with something more cost-effective, both for them and their customers.

7. Fun and easily learned rules although this could be a trait for most table top games

For the basic turns and rolls, yes. GW's systems are very easy to grasp. "Movement->Shooting->Assault" is a pretty solid system. Teaching my Girlfriend to play a basic turn took about 2 or 3 minutes. The Cover system is quite solid as well, and everything is classified easily in the 3+ to 6+ table. Some aspects are confusing and may take time to grasp, but overall a small minimal FOC game takes about half an hour, which to me is just the perfect amount of time to help someone get a grip on the game.

You did however leave out massive customization. By no means are you bound to GW-only models for your army. You can use entirely different minis or come up with new races, and no one will really say "Hey, that's unfluffy!" (Unless of course it clearly is - ie Femme-Marines). But for those set on GW minis, you could, for example, take Lizardmen and build chest harnesses of them and then model them walking on all fours and you've got the Loxatl as one example. Another would be that you could use Vampire Counts and make a Human-form Thexian Army (Being that they're shapeshifters, you can just take any mini from any 28mm range and add fangs - doesn't have to be GW or Human!)

And you can always invent your own race and use them as a "Counts as" army. There is just so much customization with 40K that you don't get with historical systems or other Sci-Fi games that it's very worth buying into. Don't like GW's minis or prices, but enjoy the game system? As long as you're not playing at any GW stores, your mini range doesn't have to be GW - you just need your Codex-of-Choice. The vast majority of FLGS are happy to include balanced "Counts As" armies. Or, if you've got a good sense of game and army balance, you can try writing your own Dex. A guy at my pref. FLGS wrote his own dex for a custom race and it's quite balanced. Some really weak and OP areas, but overall he did a GW quality job.

Overall, it's like any other wargame. If you love it you love it, and if you don't, that's fine. But if you choose to listen to the replies being posted to your original inquiry, then there're some good reasons that people enjoy the system that make it better than Warmachine and FoW. Not that those are bad systems in themselves, but a lot of people, myself included, find the GW game system to just be more solid and well-rooted.

metallifan wrote:Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started?

Nope, fourth or fifth. Lanrak has a bone to pick with GW.

And the mods don't just lock his threads of this type immediately, why?



Like I said, you don't have to like GW or it's products, but that doesn't give you the right to hop on Dakka and intentionally start a thread with the sole purpose of flaming and trolling GW players while trying to disguise it as an honest question when really, you're taking the childish 'Plug your ears and yell "LALALALALA" as loud as you can' approach. If you'd actually like answers, ask away. But if you're just looking to make yourself feel better about some qualm you had with GW or the fact that you were terrible at 40K/Fantasy, or whatever the problem is, then don't bother posting. This isn't the site to do it on. I hear Warseer is nice this time of year though.

Probably because nobody alerts them. Mods, while all-wise and all-powerful, aren't all-seeing. If they're not made aware, they can't act on something.

I believe that Dakka Mods have a beneficent approach and tend not to preemptively lock when they don't have to. That is, they appear to let things develop a bit. Also, as above, it takes time for someone to alert, and then time for a Mod to see the alert, and then time to review, etc.

Warseer is a very different animal. I'm sure the OP would have been banned there by now.

There was nothing wrong with the original post.

It asked fair questions.

But you, Metallifan, seem to be goading this guy for daring to question GW. As I have said in other threads, we have the right as consumers of a product or indeed as potential consumers, to question and criticise. The relationship between GW and the rest of the TTMG world is a subject worthy of discussion and so far, nothing in it was rude or unpleasant, it has become so now that you've appeared to defend poor old GW from the nasty OP...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Sometimes an inflammatory thread prompts good discussion. I like that this one allowed multiple people to post about all the thngs we really like about wargaming and GW games and figures specifically.

Exactly. It clarified what the OP really wanted ITT.

lord_blackfang wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Meh, I've certainly read and possibly posted worse rants at GW than that. Heck even yakface turned his nose up at their commentary in the last financial report and he's cleaner that John the Baptist.

Hey, you only know the parts that John made public.

When you're best buds with Jesus on a "forgiveness" schtick, you can get away with some seriously filthy gak...

Lanrak wrote:

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

The fluff and the miniatures that's it. If you're in it for anything else you missed the target a bit.

I like grand tournaments, and fairly regular local tournaments and leagues, in which I can expect to play against new opponents and armies with some regularity. GW games feature those things.

I never said I based things on his original post. Indeed I stated that his original post was made as a fair and goo-natured inquiry, but was soured by his further posts displaying a "GW Sucks cuz' I said so" attitude. It did ask seemingly fair questions, but the future posts that pretty much shoot down the supportive answers he was given reveals this for the trolling thread it actually is.

There's a difference between questioning and criticism, and refusing to listen to anything others tell you. I've made that point already. I'm all for discussion on the topic of GW in relation to the rest of the Wargames market, and I've clearly said that I don't support their prices in relation to low pack quantities, pointing out non GW products as viable alternatives, but when the OP refuses to consider anything other than his own opinion, that's not really much of a discussion at all.

His first post was fine. The subsequent ones are those that would be trolling.

The fluff is good but it does annoy me when they change it to suit the latest codex or characters...
Mick

JohnHwangDD wrote:Probably because nobody alerts them. Mods, while all-wise and all-powerful, aren't all-seeing. If they're not made aware, they can't act on something.

I believe that Dakka Mods have a beneficent approach and tend not to preemptively lock when they don't have to. That is, they appear to let things develop a bit. Also, as above, it takes time for someone to alert, and then time for a Mod to see the alert, and then time to review, etc.

Warseer is a very different animal. I'm sure the OP would have been banned there by now.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

It asked fair questions.

But you, Metallifan, seem to be goading this guy for daring to question GW. As I have said in other threads, we have the right as consumers of a product or indeed as potential consumers, to question and criticise. The relationship between GW and the rest of the TTMG world is a subject worthy of discussion and so far, nothing in it was rude or unpleasant, it has become so now that you've appeared to defend poor old GW from the nasty OP...

QFT

johnhwang is right in that the OP would have been banned by this point if the rest of his topics are like this one(attacking gw) for attacking gw.

metallifan would also have been banned for goading and trolling because thats what he is (in essence) doing( if you dont understand: he's trolling because he's attacking someones views on something whilst trying to make out that he's defending his ideas.0

twistinthunder wrote:
QFT

johnhwang is right in that the OP would have been banned by this point if the rest of his topics are like this one(attacking gw) for attacking gw.

metallifan would also have been banned for goading and trolling because thats what he is (in essence) doing( if you dont understand: he's trolling because he's attacking someones views on something whilst trying to make out that he's defending his ideas.0

Oh hey wait! What's this little gem?

twistinthunder wrote:i just realise

gw is a TTMG hobby so your topic is pointless and makes no sense.

Thanks for your time though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

metallifan wrote:Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started?

Nope, fourth or fifth. Lanrak has a bone to pick with GW.

I was reading some of his posts and wondering why this guy has almost 400 posts on basically a 40k forum if he hates GW so much. Certainly this troll's time would be better spent elsewhere.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There was nothing wrong with the original post.

No, but everything was wrong with his second one.

Meh, I've certainly read and possibly posted worse rants at GW than that. Heck even yakface turned his nose up at their commentary in the last financial report and he's cleaner that John the Baptist.

Oh, I don't mind rants against GW at all
I just didn't like the part where he implies that you have to be emotionally flawed to like GW product.

I don't get why people ask for threads to be locked, unless there's some sort of legal problem that could cause trouble for the site owner.

As to what does GW give over and above other parts of the hobby?
Well, I like the miniatures quite a lot, and especially how many of them are plastic. I like the fact that it's so accessible and easy to find someone to play with.
Another thing I really like is the way that GW lets me do several wargaming modes within the same world- skirmish, big battle, epic, battlefleet gothic, space hulk all in the same universe. I can't think of another company that offers that level of diversity. That said, I think I'm fairly far from a GW fanboy, and I do enjoy other games too.

Honestly GWS and most of the 40k gamers are a lot more welcoming bunch than your historical TTWG ers. I'm an old timer, and I've been around both of them, and I can tell you that on the average (there being TFG's in both groups) the 40k/fantasy guys are usually more excited to bring a new gamer into the system than the Historical guys are, and are usually much much more forgiving (again both sides have outliers) when it comes to noobish knowlege mess ups.

Da Boss wrote:I don't get why people ask for threads to be locked, unless there's some sort of legal problem that could cause trouble for the site owner.

As to what does GW give over and above other parts of the hobby?
Well, I like the miniatures quite a lot, and especially how many of them are plastic. I like the fact that it's so accessible and easy to find someone to play with.
Another thing I really like is the way that GW lets me do several wargaming modes within the same world- skirmish, big battle, epic, battlefleet gothic, space hulk all in the same universe. I can't think of another company that offers that level of diversity. That said, I think I'm fairly far from a GW fanboy, and I do enjoy other games too.

people ask for threads to get locked because they get out of control or they need to be for the sake of peace on the forum.

How does text on a webpage EVER get out of control? It's not like it can set your computer on fire. If it's bugging you that much, don't read it.
As for peace on the forum, any animosity will simply be picked up in a different thread. If it's breaking forum rules or getting to the point where there is a potential legal issue, fine, but that is really really rare.

Dakka's mods are generally very relaxed. The only thing they seem to get twitchy about is thread necro, multiple and protracted personal attacks and duplicate threads. OT is a bit wierder, because the scope for discussion is wider.

While GW has it's faults it does the following things really well:

Great models
- From top to bottom they have the best minis.
- They reinvest alot of money into KAD and have some of the top sculpters in the biz.

Recruit new hobbyist
- They have great starters for new hobbyist.
- They make an big effort to get new hobbyist.
- They put themselves in high traffic consumer areas(ie malls)
- Their product is every where

Story/IP
- The background is the best out there.

The problem is other companies rely on their gamers to expand their games. The problem is most of those gamers don't want to. GW is proactive in getting their products out to the masses. Other Companies that have had some sucess in the last couple of years have followed the GW model(ie. Battlefront and PP).

I hope you were try to ask q's and get real feedback and not just having an axe to grind. Hope this helps!

Cheers

its CAD not KAD

and people generally dont start a new thread if it gets closed because the mods will just get the banhammer out.

The discussions will be continued in other threads whether people start new ones or not. And I have never seen someone get banned from dakka for something as trivial as starting a new thread to continue discussing something from a locked thread.

The wider relation between TTMG and GW is like this: It's called "Follow the Leader".

Why do you think most other companies charge prices similar to GW now?

Why do you think alot of other games have absolute garbage for rules?

Why do you think other companies subscribed to "codex creep" to sell the new stuff as "must have"?

Because they watch GW get away with it.

The biggest issue with the GW hobby is the constant us vs them arguments and name-calling that spring up (And are encouraged by the company) because people play differently.

Da Boss wrote:How does text on a webpage EVER get out of control? It's not like it can set your computer on fire. If it's bugging you that much, don't read it.

Dude that is easy for you to say. You weren't here in '34 when some loser posted some text he didn't understand from 1st edition Rogue Trader. Turned out to a Khornish summoning spell. Three hundred people had to be mind-wiped. Don't read it? Ha! Tell that to the lesser demon who is emerging from you monitor like it's some tainted womb.

Like i've stated on other threads -


A lot of us internet 40k gamers are only a small part of the game.


The casual gamer in a GW or LGS store would say the contrary - in that - GW DOES have a store dedicated to the hobby.

The fact that they run events, MAN their own stores, they DO in fact support the hobby much greater than PP or other people do.


Right?

lol.


I know what oyu mean - but there is always a reason for everything.


Just because the internet is flak and saying F' GW and alike.


You, me, and a lot of us STILL BUY GW, regardless.


And if you don't then you are just an internet junkie who likes hanging around GW sites, yet hates GW?.

hehe.

HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

GW keep giving lip service to the 'hobby'.But they seem to just be using it as leverage for profiteering.
Pre PLC days GW used to show you HOW the table top gaming hobby is a fun and creative pastime.
Post PLC days they just push product under the 'GW hobby' banner. IMO.

I appologise again for my poorly worded second post.

If you are aware of ALL the alternatives out there, and are making an informed chioce to willingly pay the price for the 'GW Hobby' .Then fair enough.

However, if you think 'GW Hobby' is the be all and end all, I urge you to look further.
If you cant be bothered , then it rather confirms my cinical outlook.

Happy gaming
Lanrak.

Hmmm. Poor support huh?

Compared to whom exactly? Privateer 'Giz your cash, take your models and knob off' Press? Rackham, who do the same, Historical Companies, who do the same.

GW run their own stores, and all are welcome in them to either start the Hobby, improve their skills, or play games.

There is a Schools League, run by GW Stores, which helps the various younger gamers to meet and play against new people. As far as I am aware, no other Games Company does this.

Has any other company supplied trained Hobbiests to show people how to play, paint, convert?

If someone is not defining their own Hobby, the fault lies with them, NOT Games Workshop. GW always have been exponents of doing your own thing. Feel a Codex is a bit too much in one area? Then tinker. Perhaps you feel the Daemonic Ward Save is a bit harsh in Fantasy, then why not allow Magical Attacks to treat Ward Saves as normal armour, thus able to reduce it? If someone is being spoonfed, it is because they are lazy.

There is very much a 'GW Hobby' because as already illustrated, the company offers everything you need for the Games, including Fiction, Tables, Skills Teaching. And this Hobby, is part of the wider Wargames Hobby. The distinction is yours, and it is bogus.

Fan expanded GW couldn't be all that tbh, at least dex's would get done

I think the way forward for GW to become a loved company instead of a grudgingly bought from as so many appear to see it as would be if they DID listen to the consumers and did better playtesting so all units in an army were considered in a list.

I see this kind of post a lot, but nobody ever seems to provide any links to these mysterious super cheap models that are as good as GW's, or to the superb rulesets that go with them.

I've also never seen anyone booted from a game, store or tournament because his models weren't stuck together with GW brand glue, so that argument doesn't hold water, either.

Vermillion wrote:Fan expanded GW couldn't be all that tbh, at least dex's would get done

I think the way forward for GW to become a loved company instead of a grudgingly bought from as so many appear to see it as would be if they DID listen to the consumers and did better playtesting so all units in an army were considered in a list.

They did listen in the past, and the result was the 3rd Edition Codecies. The ones sans background, as per the majority of the requests. You know, the one the community cried blue murder over due to the lack of background in them?

I skipped that travesty of a ruleset. Only got talked back into 40k at 4th edition which was vaguely tolerable. Still think current nerfing of characters is a good thing compared to 2nd ed but vehicles have suffered a fair bit and save modifiers is still the way I think it should have stayed :(.
Free PDF's for dex's would be the ideal, especially upon the release of a new edition. Even if it's along the lines of the army book in the 2nd ed box set, just so no army is left in too much limbo with rules changes.
As for lack of background in the dex's in 3rd ed probaby an excuse to use less pages and charge the same amount of money

THe books went from £12 each to £8 each, as per customer requests.

Essentially, when you have a large slice of the market, customer demands soon become impossible to meet. For instance, I really enjoy my casual gaming, and like to play for the spectacle. To this end, I find the allocating of attacks in Fantasy to be a bit gamey. If you want to slap my general, issue a challenge you wuss. So if I had my way, we'd have a new Challenge System which prevents attack allocation, and the answering of challenges with an expednable unit champion, leaving your nutshard dude to mash my regiment. Others wouldn't like this, and might prefer to see it made easier to allocate attacks. GW would have to make one of three decisions.

1. My Way
2. Other persons way
3. Leave it as is.

See the problem?

MDG: Privateer Press do regular FAQs and errata, listen to customers and don't dismiss any section of their playerbase. They don't have games shops, because the american model doesn't support single brand games shops, and they're an american company. Any time I've had a problem with PP models (which was rare enough) they've been exactly as good as GW.

Other ways in which their support is good is that factions do not get left for 10+ years without an update- all factions get updated at the same time. Which is far better than GW's method of leaving people hanging for years. Or how about proper playtesting? Or releasing rules for free online?
Overall, I'd rate PP's support as better than GW's, but only slightly, because the support provided by the GW shop chain is pretty good. I'll point out though- Ireland only has 2, and they're both in Dublin, so if I was living rurally, as I was when I got into wargaming, the shops would mean nothing to me.

Privateer does have the Press Gangers around, to help out, and Rackam has Sentinels. So yeah, the other companies do encourage people to learn from experienced gamers.

So, basically, I think your points against the other companies are mostly rubbish. You'd look a lot less indoctrinated if you didn't make broad, sweeping and untrue statements like that so often.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm. Poor support huh?

Compared to whom exactly?

As far as I know, both Rackham and PP have official forums where the designers post regularly to answer questions and such.

And the new version of warmachine rules was, so I understand, released to the public for playtesting and feedback for months prior to it's creation?

Seems a highly inclusive and open way to do things to me.

And a convenient and cheap way to get your playtesting done.
As opposed to, you know, not playtesting.

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

GW keep giving lip service to the 'hobby'.But they seem to just be using it as leverage for profiteering.
Pre PLC days GW used to show you HOW the table top gaming hobby is a fun and creative pastime.
Post PLC days they just push product under the 'GW hobby' banner. IMO.

I appologise again for my poorly worded second post.

If you are aware of ALL the alternatives out there, and are making an informed chioce to willingly pay the price for the 'GW Hobby' .Then fair enough.

However, if you think 'GW Hobby' is the be all and end all, I urge you to look further.
If you cant be bothered , then it rather confirms my cinical outlook.

Happy gaming
Lanrak.

If you want to talk about the "GW Hobby", there are lots of things that go into that. The hobby is different things to different people. I like to paint the models or you might like to just read the BL books or another person may not like to paint but loves to play the game. That is what makes it awesome is that there is so many layers to the "GW Hobby".

I have been playing miniature games for over 20 years and GW is my favorite. I have seen alot of companies come and go or boom then bust. GW has always been the constant. Your post should have been "Others games than GW" and you could of made a list of games you like.

As far as the price, you can buy a bunch of cheap stuff and have no one to play(waste of money in my mind) or you pay more and you have a ton of people to play against.

Cheers

GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:THe books went from £12 each to £8 each, as per customer requests.

Essentially, when you have a large slice of the market, customer demands soon become impossible to meet. For instance, I really enjoy my casual gaming, and like to play for the spectacle. To this end, I find the allocating of attacks in Fantasy to be a bit gamey. If you want to slap my general, issue a challenge you wuss. So if I had my way, we'd have a new Challenge System which prevents attack allocation, and the answering of challenges with an expednable unit champion, leaving your nutshard dude to mash my regiment. Others wouldn't like this, and might prefer to see it made easier to allocate attacks. GW would have to make one of three decisions.

1. My Way
2. Other persons way
3. Leave it as is.

See the problem?

Why there should be more playtesting see what works best overall at each type of play, from WAAC to casual drink a beer and drunkenly issue commands expecting the models to do them .

A simple process of taking on board fan suggestions could be: Team scouring through suggestion either communicated directly or through forums, devs playtest the stuff that makes sense to death eg: someone rewrites a codex for an update, balance it out. They get the playability appeal in they'll sell armies

Lanrak wrote:


the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.

yep because the fact that the gw stores have a better atmosphere has nothing to do with hobby.besides product are part of hobby.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

That I don't know. However, there is a world of difference between criticism, and constructive critcism. Rather than just telling that in your opinion they suck, it's far more valuable to the company to be told why they suck in your opinion.

As I've raised several times, posting anonymous whinges online achieves nothing beyond raised blood pressure on the poster. Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it? Sure it would be nice, but to say the lack of it shows a lack of care for contact is untrue.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

I now have an image in my head of the board meeting for this, complete with overhead projected Powerpoint presentation and graphs.

Great now youve got me think their board meeting are:

"guys they think we suck"

"fine we'll just update space marines again! hahahahahaha!"

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it?

May I ask, with all due respect, what the you are talking about? I've emailed them a half-dozen times about questions ranging from rules to tournaments and NEVER received a response. Are you talking about the little peon that returns email rules questions that no one cares about?

I believe they say they will always read 'snail' mail. However it should be noted that many other companies use this as a means of discouraging communication, I should imagine GW is no different.

George Spiggott wrote:I believe they say they will always read 'snail' mail. However it should be noted that many other companies use this as a means of discouraging communication, I should imagine GW is no different.

Well I sent them a Christmas list a few years ago and haven't heard gak from them...

All this gw hate is boring and getting pathetic now.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

Doc- I agree GW are very good when it comes to getting kids involved through schools and in the shops as well as other new people, and further support instore, but let's be honest, its certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts which you seem to be trying to make out (if your not I apologise now), its just another way to generate more income (It wasn't that long ago that they had the scheme for kids to win higher 'promotions' by introducing more and more kids to the hobby...).

They are a very good business company, so please don't try to put across the 'friendly, we're doing it for you' angle. The share holders and profits will always come before us...

Mick

What is snail mail? I'd rather like to debate why Chaos Legions were taken out, and try to get my point across to them.

"Regular" mail, with stamps and envelopes

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

That I don't know. However, there is a world of difference between criticism, and constructive critcism. Rather than just telling that in your opinion they suck, it's far more valuable to the company to be told why they suck in your opinion.

As I've raised several times, posting anonymous whinges online achieves nothing beyond raised blood pressure on the poster. Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail. I believe we can contact the Design Team freely. With this level of access (and I believe they respond to everyone) do we really need a public forum for it? Sure it would be nice, but to say the lack of it shows a lack of care for contact is untrue.

I remember the GW forums. They were TERRIBLE. They were, I am not kidding here, akin to the Warcraft official forums. Full of people calling others nerds, losers, scrubs, etc. Those forums were the reason that I ended up finding Dakka however--so they're not ALL bad.

Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

olympia wrote:Are you talking about the little peon that returns email rules questions that no one cares about?

What did John Spencer ever do to you?

Lanrak wrote:

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

As much as some people moan about it and whine- GW does kinda have a large chain of stores that kinda offer direct suport for gamers and game play- I can't think of any other company where you can walk into their store and get help with planning an army, getting it assembled, getting it painted and either playing their or hooking you up with other players- you can't do that with any other company because no other compnay does that at all.

Now I know that there isn't the same saturation of stores in the states, and I know some people throw so lovely horror stories out there about GW staff- but they aren't all that bad- in fact some of them are quite good- especially at the helping out and supporting the gamers in their area.

Da Boss wrote:Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

The UK forum was well moderated.

TheFirstBorn wrote:All this gw hate is boring and getting pathetic now.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

Not just me thinking this then? Sadly anyone holding such a view though usually gets boo'ed off for not joining the vocal "GW sucks" crowd

Da Boss wrote:Sounds like they were poorly moderated then?

That's the thing. They did, just like Blizzard does, their best. There's only so much you can do with a specific base of moderators in certain timezones. Look at Dakka. We do fairly well shutting down threads when they need it--but some DO slip through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

Oh definitely. I loved whenever info about Recon armor came up--it was the biggest bunch of hooligans you'll ever see then.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Have you seen the Bungie forums, Kanluwen? I haven't been there for a couple of years, but it was awful. There was simply too much flaming and whining for the mods to handle, poor blokes...

So it sounds just like playing Halo3 online then?

That's just juvenile halo players. Which admittedly does account for 80% of them. No, I don't like most teen online players.

To answer Lanrak's post:

I see the "GW hobby" as an entrance tool. It works to get kids into gaming.
It does, however, seem that many kids do it ONLY because their friends do, and that when their friends stop, they also drop out.
Those of them that stay (after their friends have stopped) often open their eyes to the wider world of TTMG, existing beyond mere 40k/fantasy.

Some of us older people remember the hobby before GW 'co-opted' it into "their" hobby.
We used other systems as bootstraps to get to 40k/fantasy. I started with napoleonics. Now, as anal-retentive as some of those players are, 40k has its own share of them. Don't believe me? Try playing your chaos legion as Space Wolves and see how much flak you cop.

Yes, GW is a 'one stop shop' - but they aren't the only place. I could probably get a lot of stuff that I need from Wal-Mart, doesn't mean I won't shop around.

I know I don't have to buy flock, glue, tools and paint from GW as the guys who got me into TTMG were model railroaders. I knew that there were other (cheaper) sources for these before 40k existed.

The GW forum claimed to be an area where customers could make their views known to the company. In particular the White Dwarf section was used to specifically ask for feedback by the then editor. Well some responses were unhelpful, but many were long, detailed, moderate in demands and importantly polite. Claims were made that it was all being taken on board and that within 3 months changes would be seen, as WH has a 3 month lead on publishing. Well 6 months later there was no change and the editor was no longer coming onto the forum. People cottoned on and got upset. So upset in fact, that the closed the White Dwarf section down altogether. I guess in the end the whole place became such a horrible mess, they thought it was a stain on their clean corporate website so executed exterminatus on the whole forum.

yep because the fact that the gw stores have a better atmosphere has nothing to do with hobby.besides product are part of hobby.

Better atmosphere?! All I ever hear about GW stores is how fething awful they are, both to play and shop in.

Personally I wouldn't know, GW abandoned my state a year or two ago, but from the sound of things we're better off anyway. I'd rather spend my time in an indie retailer and not have to be constantly pressured into buying certain models...or rung up for gak at the register that I didn't intend on purchasing anyway. Or given bad advice/outright lied to in order to make a sale. Etc.

Too few people contact GW directly, either through E-Mail or Snail Mail.

Because it's a waste of time, GW doesn't read that gak. I'll bet you anything snail mail goes straight to the trash and if they even still answer e-mails anymore it's probably the company standard "We didn't really read your letter" response.

I believe we can contact the Design Team freely.

Only if you have their personal phone numbers, I would imagine, since I haven't seen anything on the website or elsewhere that gives me the option of contacting someone like Jervis directly.

I believe they respond to everyone

Not what I've heard. And there's someone claiming the contrary in this very thread, no less.

dont like them? then by all means dont buy the models and bugger off.

1. I'm already not buying the models.

2. No, you bugger off.

What is snail mail? I'd rather like to debate why Chaos Legions were taken out, and try to get my point across to them.

Good luck with that. If they don't just ignore you outright then I imagine you'd get a similar response to what Gav posted on his blog. Lots of dodged questions and strawmen.

What did John Spencer ever do to you?

No one connected to GW is innocent!

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
Well you have a load of DIY to do, and you rush a post ...and when you come back you reaise people have interprited your poory worded post as a irrational and spitful attack on them.

I see what you did there

Lanrak wrote:
My second post lead with 2 questions that was an attempt at summerising what I thoulght the core points of some of the previous posts.(Very badly phrased , on reflection.)

I also mis-phrased the bit about GW , teenagers and possible assumed apathy and attension span .Sorry for any offense caused.
I mean to post 'I belive the way GW markets to its core demoghraphic (teens) , implys GW percives them to have apathetic out look and short attension spans?
'New shiney things ...woot!' 'But we would have to learn new rules...oh-noes!'

I don't like your views of teenagers, as one myself, and knowing somewhere in the 1000's of them, the "New shiny things" types are busy with infact, new shiny things. The teenagers that play TTMG aren't like that.

But that's ok, I'll get off your lawn.

Lanrak wrote:
And the ONLY GW positives so far, are product related, not HOBBY related.
The IP is product related and so is the minatures and kits.(I have no problems with the GW backgrounds , or the Citadel minature quality.)

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

I dare you to do any hobby without the related products. The hobby aspect is one with the product aspect, especially in any TTMG. Tried building a ship in a bottle with out a bottle or a ship in which to construct inside?

Lanrak wrote:
GW range of products fit in the table top gaming hobby.
But the 'GW hobby' , is very restrictive compared to the wider variety of companies and products available in the wider table top minature game hobby.

The table top minature game hobby lets you define YOUR OWN hobby.
The GW HOBBY is never truley yours, it belongs to GW!(So you have to buy stuff from GW ONLY!)

Depends on how you chose to do things. You can choose how you do things as much as anything else. There is no right way of doing things, there is no "ONE WAY ONLY" to anything except time, life, and one way streets.

Lanrak wrote:
And to the point of how often do I win at 40k , if you think winning at 40k is important, then you probably miss the whole point of the hobby!
In my hobby PLAYING is the enjoyable experice,(converting , painting,etc is the means to an end.)
If a game is so vapid winning becomes the only point , I refuse to play!

See my previous point. If you really, REALLY, can't find someone who isn't "WIN WIN WIN" then find someone else or don't play.

Lanrak wrote:

Therfore I prefer to use rule sets written by games companies , not minature companies.(I have a wide chioce available. )
And most rule sets can be learned in less than 1/2 an hour,as they are well defined and comprehensive to allow maximum game play , with the minimum amount of rules.
40k seems to reverse this, very simple gameplay but loads of extra rules to help market new releases!

This is both good and bad, depends on who you are.

I like the extra rules, because it give more individuality.

In fact the direction of pre-made terrain , etc could be seen as detractring from the one of the core aspect of the 'creative hobby'.

Woah, I missed that. I disagree entirely, the terrain kits are a boon, there's so much you can do with them, and they're one of the only reasonably-priced things you can get from GW.

Ahhhhh! So many acronyms... I don't even know what TTMG means. Table-top Miniature Games?

You say you don't know what the acronyms are, then with a wild stab at Jervis, you manage to nail it.

Yes, that is exactly what TTMG means.

Mick A wrote:Doc- I agree GW are very good when it comes to getting kids involved through schools and in the shops as well as other new people, and further support instore, but let's be honest, its certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts which you seem to be trying to make out (if your not I apologise now), its just another way to generate more income (It wasn't that long ago that they had the scheme for kids to win higher 'promotions' by introducing more and more kids to the hobby...).

They are a very good business company, so please don't try to put across the 'friendly, we're doing it for you' angle. The share holders and profits will always come before us...

Mick

Indeed. Not since Fondles the Clown or Joe Camel have I seen such solicitude for our children.

Terrain kits are a long-standing product in non-GW wargaming -- buildings, trees, cliff sections and so on.

There's nothing wrong with ready made terrain bits.

Modellers can still express their creativity by making original pieces.

I would like GW to produce some Tau and Eldar terrain pieces.

I would like your avatar to stop staring at me like that.

I wish that cork bark was easy to get a hold of. The only place I can find it is on eBay.

I thought the GW forums were removed when people like me politely asked where threads containing criticism went. The forums were so well moderated nothing but praise was left there, at least blizzard leave the threads of people getting angry and ranting about servers being down up. And those threads were always funny to read

@Sidstyler: Cork bark is hard to get because the tree ONLY grows in certain parts of the world (cork oak).

I know that, I'm just saying...

GW only positives are for me,

1/ High street presence. No other miniatures company has a chain of stores. The stores provide a not only a place to easily get hold of your miniatures, but a place to meet fellow gamers, pick up painting and modeling advice but also to see new products "in the flesh" before deciding to buy them or not.

2/ Product support. As far as I am aware GW still have a number you can ring to check rules and get advice. Also whilst the quality of their product can be hit and miss from time to time there customer service and problem resolution is excelant

3/ New gamer support. I know that the fact the company focuses on the new gamer is a bugbear with a lot of us vets, but without new blood coming in thhen the hobby would die. Most gamers first contact with the TTMG market is via GW, without them serving as an entry point many of the smaller manufacturers would cease to exist.

4/ Background. GW invests a massive amount of time and resources in creating interesting background material, from the history of the special charachters through to the stunning artwork which is present in almost all of their products. I feel that a lot of the time this is taken for granted.

5/ All under one roof. GW stores provide a one stop shop for picking up pretty much everything you need to play, I appreciate that this can be achieved on the internet, but in terms of someone new wandering into a store and wanting to get started, its all there. Miniatures, rules, paints, glue scenery and even the board itself.

GW is by no means perfect but then again neither are many brand leaders such as Tesco etal. However they are a vital part of the TTMG industry and it would be a blow to all manufacturers and retailers if they were not about.

squilverine wrote:GW only positives are for me,

1/ High street presence. No other miniatures company has a chain of stores. The stores provide a not only a place to easily get hold of your miniatures, but a place to meet fellow gamers, pick up painting and modeling advice but also to see new products "in the flesh" before deciding to buy them or not.

2/ Product support. As far as I am aware GW still have a number you can ring to check rules and get advice. Also whilst the quality of their product can be hit and miss from time to time there customer service and problem resolution is excelant

3/ New gamer support. I know that the fact the company focuses on the new gamer is a bugbear with a lot of us vets, but without new blood coming in thhen the hobby would die. Most gamers first contact with the TTMG market is via GW, without them serving as an entry point many of the smaller manufacturers would cease to exist.

4/ Background. GW invests a massive amount of time and resources in creating interesting background material, from the history of the special charachters through to the stunning artwork which is present in almost all of their products. I feel that a lot of the time this is taken for granted.

5/ All under one roof. GW stores provide a one stop shop for picking up pretty much everything you need to play, I appreciate that this can be achieved on the internet, but in terms of someone new wandering into a store and wanting to get started, its all there. Miniatures, rules, paints, glue scenery and even the board itself.

GW is by no means perfect but then again neither are many brand leaders such as Tesco etal. However they are a vital part of the TTMG industry and it would be a blow to all manufacturers and retailers if they were not about.

1/ Can't disagree there

2/ Soon to disappear plus not the best place to get rules advice as I, and others, have found out...

3/ New 'customer' support. See what happens if you go into one of their shops and say you are interested in starting to play their games but cant afford to actually buy any of it...

4/ The fluff is excellent but can be annoying when bits are changed to suit the latest codex/army book.

5/ yes you can get everything you need but a lot of the periphary stuff is available else where in the high street for a lower price.

It would be interesting to see the percentage of new people who are introduced into TTMG through GW over one year who continue and are still doing it five years later (normally after they have started, or want to start, dating...)

Mick

For the first time in a long time I had a good look round the local GW the other day. I was quite surprised by how cultish the whole place feels. The total dedication to a single product (the stiring music, the wall banners and so on) is quite overwhelming and a bit disturbing. GW stores are not great places for the uninitiated.

First of all, it's a fallacy that Dakka is exclusively a 40k forum. Indeed, the news forum is always full of new product announcements from companies like MaxMini, Privateer, WGF and what have you. There's even a dedicated Warmachine subforum, for crying out loud! As for the OP's dichotomy, I think simplifications like that are odious and result in quite a bit of bickering, of the sort we've an ample supply in this thread.

GW's failings, such as they are, have stopped me from buying their product for the time being, but beyond that, I'm not sure if I'd treat them, on the whole, with half the vitriol several of my fellow posters do. The perfect wargaming company doesn't exist. The closest I've gotten in terms of minis companies is Heresy, if only for the fact they send me free candy when I order their stuff.

George Spiggott wrote:For the first time in a long time I had a good look round the local GW the other day. I was quite surprised by how cultish the whole place feels. The total dedication to a single product (the stiring music, the wall banners and so on) is quite overwhelming and a bit disturbing. GW stores are not great places for the uninitiated.

I wouldn't describe them as being great places to go. I usually feel a bit more uncomfortable spending time in them as I get older. I usually make it a point to visit new one if I'm on holiday in an area, I've been to about a third on the ones in the UK now I think. First you always get pounced at the door with someone trying to sell you the latest thing but they always ignore my wife if she is with me, even though she is also interested in miniatures. "So, what does your boyfriend like to model, then?" was one greeting upon entering a store once on her own, and later patronised "have you ever used a modelling knife before, it's very sharp".

I'm only in my 20s and feel like I've wandered into a playgroup at times. All I want to do it look at the stuff on the rails for sale and have a gander at their store display cabinet. It's a bit off putting what with the stale smell of body odour and over excited shouts of "WAAARGH" and "BOOOOM!!" which both reach eye-watering proportions in the school holidays. Sometimes once they know you're a long term gamer/collector the conversation steers away from "buy buy buy" to one of genuine hobby talk, other times they just lose interest. Usually it depends on how busy the store is. Their customer service in answering sales queries, finding stock not on the shelves and resolving disputes is all top notch, but that's not contributing towards the "atmosphere" of the shops we are discussion so don't mistake the point I'm making. I think the most offputting part is the frequent embarassing adolescence of the shops. I even felt this when I was a teenager, albeit a quiet retreating one, now as an adult I find it utterly cringeworthy. So much so that I don't even consider going into their crowded shops during school holidays.

I remember the GW forums. They were TERRIBLE. They were, I am not kidding here, akin to the Warcraft official forums. Full of people calling others nerds, losers, scrubs, etc. Those forums were the reason that I ended up finding Dakka however--so they're not ALL bad.

People who play with small toy soldiers call other people who play with small toy soldiers nerds?

As a company GW have matured into the behemoth it is today and I think the mature approach would be to accept its role in the ever evolving TTMG hobby gamers will never be totally satisfied with products services and pricing that are offered. GW are the victims of their own success they have stake and share holders to answer to, they have to aggressively pursue profit, doing this by promoting their own product, their aspect of the hobby has evolved. They are right as a business to push their own products, they are branded as GW and as a business they are under no obligation, neither should they be of promoting aspects of TTMG other than their own as a business people playing with 'toy soldiers' should be buying their products. Its the same with GW as it is with tescos, VW, Sony, Apple, HP, Heinz beans, Cadburys and my business.

Are their changes that need to be made? quite possibly, whilst my kids like their stores as an older gamer I find I am losing touch, which is what gaming clubs are about i suppose. Soem of the staff and kids at their stores are so indoctrinated that 'counts as' is a really big issue, more intelligent managers and staff are a way round this problem but thsi is a flaw exposed not just at GW but at other gaming groups with other game systems, try converting dreads and sentinels to use in a warmachine tourney and see what I mean.

GW has flaws but with TTMG as a wholes they really are no different to others they are just a bigger target - a sign of success.

GW positives:

1. Raising the quality: if you look at a lot of older figs (though there are some real gems out there from Bob Olley, the Perrys, Ral Partha in general, etc.), especially historical figs, they're pretty 'meh'. Ye Olde bag of Old Glory was more often than not a flash-and-often-mangled sack of lead. Plastics meant soft-plastic 1/72 scale airfix kits or the like. Today, you can go and get high quality, well designed metal and hard plastic miniatures for multiple (popular) eras, produced by a variety of companies, many of whom employ sculptors or designers who once worked at GW.

2. Simplification of Rules: without fantasy and 40k, you wouldn't have had Warhammer Ancients, which changed historical rules for the better for everyone. Playing historicals no longer means giving up 12 hours of your life to fuss over chits, charts and writing algorithms on your ti-85 to work out all of the modifiers. Historical games--from Flames of War to Sharpe Practice to the WAB line to everything in between are now fast and fun. Are there more balance issues than there might have been at one point? Probably. Are many of these rules written better than GW's flagship games? Often. But GW's games helped create an expectation that rules be fun and fast, rather than an AP math exam. And this doesn't even include the pulp, sci-fi, fantasy and other games that have shown up in the last 10 years. It may have all started with Gary Gygax' "Chainmail", and there may have been contemporaries who did the same thing (Warzone and Battletech come to mind), but WHFB and 40k set the bar for what was to come: fast-paced games with a rich storyline and a lot of customization within the game.

3. Paint matters: say what you will about the 'eavy Metal team and their style of painting, but it raised the expectations for everyone. You don't see many people using testors glossy oils to paint their figures anymore, and that's a good thing. I think there's more of an expectation that your army will be painted (and should look at least decent) as well. You can't say that Golden Daemon Awards, White Dwarf Magazines (pre-2004, say) and 'Eavy Metal books didn't help move the hobby forward,, especially pre-internet at least as much as Wargames Illustrated and IPMS.

4. Creativity is a good thing: "You mean I can cut the bow off this elf and give it guns? Brilliant!" Yes, they were always your figs to do what you wanted (again, see Airfix) but with GW, conversion became an obsession. Does anyone just paint the figs as-is anymore, especially the plastics? It seems like everyone's always adding or changing some bits or bobs to their models. And this is true for other games' figures as well.

Was GW the originator of these things? Nope, but they were able to do them more so than their competitors, transforming the hobby. Sure, you'll find plenty of grognards clinging to their Red Box edition of D&D or playing DBM (and even getting some youngsters into it), but there are plenty more with a copy of 2nd ed. 40k or 4th ed. Fantasy in a closet somewhere who's expectations were shaped by those games, and GW in general.

Well, personally, without GW I would own a comic book shop that sold some card games.

With GW, I have a shop with 8 gaming tables that customers can use for any game, and a room of scenery in various scales. I sell lots of historical boardgames, Flames of War, Warmachine, Field of Glory, lots of scenery and scenery supplies, foam cutting tools, Osprey books, historical minitures from half a dozen companies, modeling tools, and many varied products that support 'Gaming', and not necessarily GW.

GW helps pay the rent, and makes the rest of the gaming possible.

And don't forget, GW gives many GW haters something to post about! Face it, without GW, you'd have no hate for GW. Your life would be empty of meaning.)

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I would argue that DBA and Fire & Fury were more influential in historicals than WAB.

I agree with your other points.

mikhaila wrote:


And don't forget, GW gives many GW haters something to post about! Face it, without GW, you'd have no hate for GW. Your life would be empty of meaning.)

Well done- you made me spit my tea out from laughing

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

GW models are incredibly detailed, no denying that.
However, if you had any semblance of experience with military model kits, you wouldn't have made this comment. Military models are KNOWN for their detail and historical accuracy. Research some Tamiya kits. Or airplane kits. Or, even more so, scale warship kits. Then you can take into consideration all the after-market photo-etched brass kits that add levels of detail that GW could only dream of. Kits that can transform the cockpit of your 1:48 IL-2 Sturmovik from a stock kit into an almost perfect scale replica right down to the gauges, seatbelt buckles, and lever handles. Heaven forbid, should you look into the Age of Sail wood kits with all the rigging and what-not.

Even the less detailed 1:72-1:76 kits are pretty highly detailed. Look at some Hasegawa tank and infantry kits. They make kits for all sorts of variations where maybe only the suspension changed a little bit or slightly different materials were used on the real thing (like Zimmerit or side skirts). They even make such detail changes as the Sherman's welded hull vs. the stamped hull.

If you want to compare detail, then you MUST also include scale. Historical model kits are scale models. That means they accurately represent the scales of their kits right down to the inch. Even between kits, like tanks and vehicles in scale with infantry or planes. How does GW rate on that aspect? GW's tanks to their infantry? Laughable, that's where. They have no concept of scale in their model designs. Even infantry to infantry is not in scale with their own fluff.

Before you compare detail between GW and historical kits, make sure you do your research. Try actually building some WWII Tamiya or Dragon 1:35 kits. Get yourself an Age of Sail ship-of-the-line and then tell me that GW is more detailed. Hell, since you won't put your money where your mouth is, just google scale military models. We'll await your retraction of the above-quoted comment.





Just for the record, here's some pics of DETAILED models:

Not even close to GW's level of detail, huh...


IJN Akagi:


Nowhere near as detailed as a Rhino...


This T-34/76 can't touch a Russ.


1:35 resin WWII German infantry




GW's best detail is in their infantry, in my opinion. Their new infantry is high-class, I'll give them that.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I can buy good quality minatures from many sources at a fraction of the GW price,

I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

I think there is a slight difference- as most of the examples you gave there Ghidorah are display pieces more than gaming pieces... and I got the feeling it was minatures for games, not just to look pretty, that were being called into question.

Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

Bignutter wrote:I think there is a slight difference- as most of the examples you gave there Ghidorah are display pieces more than gaming pieces...

Yes and no, really. The completed models I posted pics of are display/competition/diorama pieces, yes, but that's not ALL they are for. There are many wargames out there that use these very same kits. I play Battleground WWII using the 1/72 scale rules. We use the Hasegawa, Revell, Italieri, etc. model kits for our wargames. That's all there is to use. This particular ruleset also has conversions for 28mm minis and, when Easy Eights Productions made minis in addition to the rules, they were 'Heroic 28mm' so many of the Tamiya kits worked. So, everything I mentioned above iwould be considered 'gaming kits' as well as 'disply/diorama kits'.

There are no GAME companies that make 1/72 kits strictly for wargaming, ala GW. So, you use what there is. Just as a 13 year old kid might build a model tank because he already built his Corvette kit, so the modeler builds the kit for display or competition, so does the wargamer build the kit for his upcoming Ardennes Offensive game. Does that make sense? I hope so...

Either way you slice it, my point was that those commercially available kits by those companies I mentioned (and many more that I didn't) are every bit as detailed as GW's kits, thus providing contradiction to the person's statement that I quoted. I would argue that the majority of them are more detailed...



Ghidorah

Bignutter wrote:
Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

(Warning: any historical references here is for comparison purposes rather than game equivalencies. YMMV)

Nor a Russ and slap it on a Falcon, so it doesn't mesh quite as well as a comparison. I'm sure that there are a lot of Sherman commanders that would have loved to have 88s! Farseers and battlecannons not so much.

This much stuff would make GW cry. It also tends to make me cry. Individual links suck to assemble.
GW products are targeted at a different audience than 1/35 models. Although I'd *love* to get a field gun and a crew of 9 for $22! I'd also be expecting rules for shooting scaled distances since an 88 would still be able to shoot 38 feet...and my neighbor might be upset if I had to shell their kitchen appliances! Also there's the rivet counting historical accuracy that comes to mind. WYSIWYG gets strange here.

In your defense there are a number of tread heads who do add nearly the same level of detail to their GW armor as they can. *I* don't because I suck.

I think the major problem *I* have with GW is their supported venom about being the only one. Warmachine has its own flaws ('page 5' being the steroidal rant that got misinterpreted) and more than a few other games could use some love...but only GW claims to be "the one true hobby. Its like religion - and the crazy religious folks tend to push people away with the 'one true path' spiel.

Ghidorah wrote:I would argue that the majority of them are more detailed...

I would argue this is an understatement.

metallifan wrote:
This is true. You can literally pour over the history and background of the 40K universe for a year and not manage to read through all of it. It really is just absolutely massive, and can be compared to real historical literature in terms of quality and overall length.

A good rebuttal, with some decent points. However, I'm not sure what point you're making here - what do you mean by "real historical literature"? Personally, I generally find Games Workshop background to be poorly written, relying far too much on stock phrases/wording (people are always "musing", and weapons always "cleave" the air, for example). On the other hand, the meta-concepts and premises are usually interesting, although I feel like they want to have their cake and eat it - they've created a galaxy holding "untold billions" of populated planets, upon which anything can and does happen. Therefore why should we care when a world is wiped out? GW has made very few significant advancements/changes in their backgrounds; as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

(Incidentally, can I just add that it's "pore" over something - a book, photograph, magazine etc - rather than "pour"? I see this all the time on here and it's incredibly annoying.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:GW had Forums, which were eventually closed thanks to the feedback being predominantly 'you suck, LOL' rather than anything dimly creative.

What changes did PP make to Version 2 following the release of the draft?

GW's problem with External Playtesting is similarly blighted. Rather than truly constructive feedback, all they got was 'give it this that and the other, lower the points, and make it more killy'. So now it's done in house.

If everyone was posting 'you suck' on the GW forum, did they stop to consider the terrible possibility that they had, in fact, drifted into suckage territory?

Real talk.

Peekay wrote:...as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

Well said. Surely the male and female Guardians have had ample downtime to "take the log to the beaver" and repopulate a bit...



Ghidorah

There are four companies making historicals in 28mm plastic.

Victrix
Wargames Factory
Perry Brothers
Warlord Games

There are several others making them in 1/72 scale.

Hmm, Warmachine is playtested? For what, fairness? LOL.

WM sounds cool but to me there need not be playtesting unless it's to see who can figure out the most broken combo.

That seems to be WM's premise. See who can create the dirtiest combo and run with it. Like MTG but in miniature war gaming form. So, is it safe to assume they playtest to make sure nothing FAIR gets into the rules?

Mini's are tight though. I love the Cryx 'jacks.

Fateweaver wrote:Hmm, Warmachine is playtested? For what, fairness? LOL.

WM sounds cool but to me there need not be playtesting unless it's to see who can figure out the most broken combo.

That seems to be WM's premise. See who can create the dirtiest combo and run with it. Like MTG but in miniature war gaming form. So, is it safe to assume they playtest to make sure nothing FAIR gets into the rules?

Mini's are tight though. I love the Cryx 'jacks.

From my understanding of the mantra of 'play it like you've got a pair', it's designed around the concept that you do look for power builds designed to take down the opponent. It was designed with tourney play in mind.

Ghidorah wrote:

Peekay wrote:...as far as I can tell, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were when I began buying miniatures in about 1990 (with the Emperor precariously hanging on, the Tyranids threatening to overrun everything, and the Eldar nearing extinction).

Well said. Surely the male and female Guardians have had ample downtime to "take the log to the beaver" and repopulate a bit...



Ghidorah

No-one knows how many Exodites there are. Could be billions. All the focus is on the Craftworld Eldar.

Well, that's what I was talking about. In all this time since Slannesh was created and most of the Eldar were swallowed, I somehow think they've found a little time for sharing their dirty bits.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:Spoken like a person who doesn't know jack about historical models.

Right, I was just talking about gaming pieces (the plastic infantry manufacturers Killkrazy listed). Of course model vehicles are more detailed and there's about a billion different ones in any model shop. I was into WW2 tank kits before I found Warhammer.

Bignutter wrote:Sure there might be some very nice scale models out there- but how modular are they? You can't easily take the turret off a tiger and stick it on a sherman can you?

Why would you want to? There's a load of things you can do to modify a Tiger of a Sherman to make it different without resorting to the absurd. And as pointed out you can't really take a Leman Russ Turret and stick it on a Falcon, both from a practical standpoint and a fluff one, so that argument doesn't hold. But within the bounds of reality, there is huge scope for conversion and modification. Certain vehicles have huge room for development, there's a guy that does some shows in the UK who only models 1:72 Shermans. He has a whole table of them , probably 50+ and every one is a different variant. Some are small variants, others are big ones that represent particularly unusual and unique vehicles. Pick up any military modelling magazine and you'll see people making small conversions on vehicles to completely rebuilding them as something else. If you go to a model show there's a fair chance you'll not see two vehicles that are alike, most kits are not built straight from the box unless they are a new release that everyone in rushing to complete. It's usually possible to totally change a vehicle by buying a different crew for it, make a few small modifications and you have something that can be in an entirely different paint scheme to serve in another army. In that sense the kits are modular for someone collecting along the lines of a particular theme. Some vehicles are so widely used around the world that they can be included in almost any amed forces meaning it's possible to build up a diverse collection for any place or time. Also you can go into a model shop and look at their whole range because anything could potentially be of interest. Many people who game with GW models are mainly interested in only their own stuff, unless you're an Ork player looking to loot some IG vehicles, you'll have a passing interest in the bulk of the range available. That's not the case with historical modellers, they may normally collect to various themes, but their overall interests are much wider in scope.

And the argument that GW kits are more detailed than historical kits? Piffle. Scale model kits are sculpted to be miniature replicas of the real thing, admittedly there are some real turds out there but most of them are old kits, the bulk of modern kits have superb and very fine detail. GW "detail" is large and chunky because they make tabletop playing pieces not scale models, the two aren't supposed to be compared in the way they are here because the models serve entirely different purposes. It's a load of nonsense anyway. How can anyone boast about the quality of the "detail" on a fictional kit?

Hi again,
Well a good range of replies so far.
And as its sort of drifted off topic a bit, may I intervene?

GW PLC keep saying the 'GW HOBBY'.
It is GW PLC, NOT ME that wants to make the distinction between the 'GW Hobby' and the wider table top minature game hobby.

I am happy to except many simply use Citadel products bought in a GW store for convienience, they may be happy to pay for the conveniece.

GW PLC have a strong IP and some quality hobby related products.

GW used a retail chain in the late 1980s to establish a strong high street precence in the UK.This put them in a strong position to lead the revival in TTMG.

Pre PLC days GW was run by enthusiastic hobbiests, and it showed IMO.
GW sold stuff by inspiring creativity in others.(The GW studio and store staff still try to do this IMO.Which is a very good thing!)

I belive the problem was when GW PLC switched target demographic from 'gamers-hobbiests' to 'easiest to please'.
This is a corperate mind set, dont improve your product ,if you can just swich to less demanding customers!

If you are writing a rule set for experianced gamers , it much harder to please them than new players who have nothing to compare your rules to.
And if the 'rule of cool' becomes enough to sustain your new demographic demand for product, actual rules development and game support can be cut ....

GW PLC infer that 'GW hobby' is the only hobby worth bothering with, and other games are too complicated-/-boreing-/-dont exist!

And after a person has invested so much time and effort into building up a army for 40k/WH, they often feel they HAVE to wait for the game to improve over time.
As they dont think there are any alternatives available.

As there are rule sets that a FREE to down load, why not give them a try with your mates?(Using the minature you already have?)
Cost = a few pence/cents.Time takes less than an hour to print and learn.

According to JJ.
The GW hobby is all about.
1/ Collecting a huge amount of Citadel minatures.
2/Reading about the background to inspire you collection.
3/ Painting and converting Citadel minatures with GW HOBBY supplies and paint.
4/Forming you minatures in to usable armies with GW codexes & army books.
5/ Playing games using GW rule books.

'' ..the games are just the icing on the cake..''

I understand many are happy with the non game related parts of the hobby.
But as GW PLC,place cash values on models based on 'in game performance',perhaps collector only hobbiests are not getting VFM?

GW PLC appears to treat the social interaction/ gameing part of the hobby ,as a neccisary evil-optional extra!(Not bothered about resolving game play issues, anti- tournament players ?)

Games Workshop is not the best place to get games from, IMO!

As reguard to the GW branding of everything,and here is all you need approach for the newbs.
I belive this stifles creativity as EVERY example shown by GW uses its own branded products, ( for obvious reasons.)
And so the level of creativity available to be shown by GW staff is getting more limited ...

This is why JJ is limited to talking about 'the hobby' in standard bearer, rather than SHOWING the hobby in multiple WD articles.

The TTMG hobby lets you use whatever rules and products you like ,in the way you want to.
The GW hobby lets you use GW Branded products in the way GW propose.

Enticing you customers to become reliant on you brand, then moaning about why the customers dont work things out them selves is hypocritical IMO.
(GW core games are all thats worth playing, How dare you ask for FAQs and clarifications?)

The social interaction and creativity of the TTMG can be used with the GW RANGE OF PRODUCTS.
This doesnt make a seperate hobby IMO.(Just a restricted one!)

Why do I moan about poor gamer support -rules development -buisness practices at GW?

Because the ONLY thing that would make GW change direction, is loss of turn over.
So if enough gamers switched to alternative rules that didnt need new Citadel minatures every few years,maybe GW would put game play as top priority?

Any rule set that lists the many simple resolution methods available using D6s, to solve complex interactions on page 2.
Then totaly ignores them and uses umpteen seperate rules in the rest of the rule book , is indicative of the lazy exploitive attitude!
Also state on page 2 , the obvious 'The Most Important Rule.'(Dont be a '****'.)
Then write a get out clause for poor rules writeing,hiden in with common sense practicality.
(Yes its 40k.)

I belive GW is using the notion of the 'GW hobby' for profiteeering , and the detriment of the actual 'TTMG hobby.'

Yes other companies use rules to sell minatures.BUT use unified game play improvments,NOT extra 'spezhul rulz, woot!' that mess the gameplay up!

But rules companies that DONT have minture ranges to sell, and minature companies that dont have thier own rules to exploit.Tend to offer better VFM!

CLARIFICATION, GW PLC has a low opinion of its customers, (read the 'little red book', )NOT me!
Moderators, Please delete above line if required,(I know its a sensitive issue),many thanks,Lanrak.

TTFN
Lanrak.

lord_blackfang wrote:Right, I was just talking about gaming pieces (the plastic infantry manufacturers Killkrazy listed). Of course model vehicles are more detailed and there's about a billion different ones in any model shop. I was into WW2 tank kits before I found Warhammer.

Fair enough. GW's detail strength is, in my opinion, in their infantry models. At the same token, though, many of the historical manufacturers make just as detailed infantry in their own right (barring that 1:72 Revell crap. Eww...). I think the big difference, which is to GW's benefit, is that 40k minis are not "real", so they can add all sorts of doo-dads and bits and let imaginations really run wild. Historical models are bound by history and the scrutiny of the 'historical modelers' so they aren't really afforded the opportunity to add stuff outside the sphere of actual gear/uniforms/etc.

lord_blackfang wrote:I can count on my fingers the number of multipart historical kits that come close in modularity and level of detail to the average GW sprue.

You can see where this looks VERY different than what you just said in your most recent reply, right? I'm not crazy, right?
Because I'm an historical model/wargame fanboy, I have to sing the praise of Hasegawa 1/72 infantry kits. They're pretty detailed plastic. For metal minis in 20mm, SHQ is hands-down the best. Detail, accuracy, and proportion to the nines, both companies.


Y'know? since we're talking about GW and detail, I just realized something that really backs up your original statement about GW's detail:

Epic 40k.

When it comes to 1:285-1:300 nobody, I mean NOBODY details like GW. Not even close. Heroics & Ross and GHQ were pretty much the be-all end-all of that scale for WWII minis and, honestly, they can't come anywhere NEAR the levels of detail that GW did with the Epic 40,000 (3rd ed.) re-scuplts. So, we can just pretend that that's what you were talking about all along and we'll have no choice but to agree with you.


Ghidorah

The closest I've gotten in terms of minis companies is Heresy, if only for the fact they send me free candy when I order their stuff.

Sweets? My preciousss!

People who play with small toy soldiers call other people who play with small toy soldiers nerds?

This isn't a new phenomenon. It's even more funny/sad when you're playing online, and someone in the game calls you a nerd with no life for playing the game.

Scrubs I can see, though. There are scrubs all over the place. I used to be one.

I haven't seen any of the Epic models.

I would be surprised and impressed if they were more detailed than GHQ who are regarded as the gold standard for micro-armour.

Sorry Ghidorah, have to disagree re GW Epic vs GHQ (although I agree with you 100% on the other stuff). Forge World Epic is on par with GHQ but not the normal metal stuff although it is nice.
I'm in the middle of moving so everything packed away otherwise I would do a comparison photo (I have GHQ WWII Amrican and GW Space Marine armies).
Mick

Ghidorah wrote:
Y'know? since we're talking about GW and detail, I just realized something that really backs up your original statement about GW's detail:

Epic 40k.

When it comes to 1:285-1:300 nobody, I mean NOBODY details like GW. Not even close. Heroics & Ross and GHQ were pretty much the be-all end-all of that scale for WWII minis and, honestly, they can't come anywhere NEAR the levels of detail that GW did with the Epic 40,000 (3rd ed.) re-scuplts. So, we can just pretend that that's what you were talking about all along and we'll have no choice but to agree with you.

Fair enough
I've actually been looking around for a new 6mm game recently and kinda got accustomed to the usual level of detail in that scale (Brigade Models, GZG and such)... then I stumbles upon some of the current Epic Falcons and was totally blown away.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi again,
Well a good range of replies so far.
And as its sort of drifted off topic a bit, may I intervene?

GW PLC keep saying the 'GW HOBBY'.
It is GW PLC, NOT ME that wants to make the distinction between the 'GW Hobby' and the wider table top minature game hobby.

I am happy to except many simply use Citadel products bought in a GW store for convienience, they may be happy to pay for the conveniece.

GW PLC have a strong IP and some quality hobby related products.

GW used a retail chain in the late 1980s to establish a strong high street precence in the UK.This put them in a strong position to lead the revival in TTMG.

Pre PLC days GW was run by enthusiastic hobbiests, and it showed IMO.
GW sold stuff by inspiring creativity in others.(The GW studio and store staff still try to do this IMO.Which is a very good thing!)

I belive the problem was when GW PLC switched target demographic from 'gamers-hobbiests' to 'easiest to please'.
This is a corperate mind set, dont improve your product ,if you can just swich to less demanding customers!

If you are writing a rule set for experianced gamers , it much harder to please them than new players who have nothing to compare your rules to.
And if the 'rule of cool' becomes enough to sustain your new demographic demand for product, actual rules development and game support can be cut ....

GW PLC infer that 'GW hobby' is the only hobby worth bothering with, and other games are too complicated-/-boreing-/-dont exist!

And after a person has invested so much time and effort into building up a army for 40k/WH, they often feel they HAVE to wait for the game to improve over time.
As they dont think there are any alternatives available.

As there are rule sets that a FREE to down load, why not give them a try with your mates?(Using the minature you already have?)
Cost = a few pence/cents.Time takes less than an hour to print and learn.

According to JJ.
The GW hobby is all about.
1/ Collecting a huge amount of Citadel minatures.
2/Reading about the background to inspire you collection.
3/ Painting and converting Citadel minatures with GW HOBBY supplies and paint.
4/Forming you minatures in to usable armies with GW codexes & army books.
5/ Playing games using GW rule books.

'' ..the games are just the icing on the cake..''

I understand many are happy with the non game related parts of the hobby.
But as GW PLC,place cash values on models based on 'in game performance',perhaps collector only hobbiests are not getting VFM?

GW PLC appears to treat the social interaction/ gameing part of the hobby ,as a neccisary evil-optional extra!(Not bothered about resolving game play issues, anti- tournament players ?)

Games Workshop is not the best place to get games from, IMO!

As reguard to the GW branding of everything,and here is all you need approach for the newbs.
I belive this stifles creativity as EVERY example shown by GW uses its own branded products, ( for obvious reasons.)
And so the level of creativity available to be shown by GW staff is getting more limited ...

This is why JJ is limited to talking about 'the hobby' in standard bearer, rather than SHOWING the hobby in multiple WD articles.

The TTMG hobby lets you use whatever rules and products you like ,in the way you want to.
The GW hobby lets you use GW Branded products in the way GW propose.

Enticing you customers to become reliant on you brand, then moaning about why the customers dont work things out them selves is hypocritical IMO.
(GW core games are all thats worth playing, How dare you ask for FAQs and clarifications?)

The social interaction and creativity of the TTMG can be used with the GW RANGE OF PRODUCTS.
This doesnt make a seperate hobby IMO.(Just a restricted one!)

Why do I moan about poor gamer support -rules development -buisness practices at GW?

Because the ONLY thing that would make GW change direction, is loss of turn over.
So if enough gamers switched to alternative rules that didnt need new Citadel minatures every few years,maybe GW would put game play as top priority?

Any rule set that lists the many simple resolution methods available using D6s, to solve complex interactions on page 2.
Then totaly ignores them and uses umpteen seperate rules in the rest of the rule book , is indicative of the lazy exploitive attitude!
Also state on page 2 , the obvious 'The Most Important Rule.'(Dont be a '****'.)
Then write a get out clause for poor rules writeing,hiden in with common sense practicality.
(Yes its 40k.)

I belive GW is using the notion of the 'GW hobby' for profiteeering , and the detriment of the actual 'TTMG hobby.'

Yes other companies use rules to sell minatures.BUT use unified game play improvments,NOT extra 'spezhul rulz, woot!' that mess the gameplay up!

But rules companies that DONT have minture ranges to sell, and minature companies that dont have thier own rules to exploit.Tend to offer better VFM!

CLARIFICATION, GW PLC has a low opinion of its customers, (read the 'little red book', )NOT me!
Moderators, Please delete above line if required,(I know its a sensitive issue),many thanks,Lanrak.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Gadzooks. Breathe man, breathe.

GW is a gateway drug. It's easily accessable. Other games have better rules, better models, better support, better fluff... but GW done the best job over 25 years of consolidating everything into one package, and has the marketing to get known outside the hobby industry. Even people who've never rolled a die to make an armour save in their life are often familiar with WH.

I've left several times, and it's always easy to hop back in, because the models are extremely easy to find. Pick Rackham or Infiniti, which are far superior in several areas, and you'll be lucky to find anything at your local FLGS, let alone a full range of models and accessories. I've been in the hobby for almost 30 years, and I'm thrilled that people can go to one place for everything; models, rules, paint... everything. True, they can get better stuff elsewhere, but they'll learn that when they're ready to take the next step.

You really dislike the way they promote their hobby, but honestly, why should it affect you? You can purchase what you need without entering their stores, you don't need to pick up any propaganda in the form of WD or their website or their salespeople. You can frequent the internet, where you may be in direct contact people who actually, gasp, like GW, but you certainly don't need to.

If you really dislike their marketing, ignore it. Take what you like from the game, and let the rest rot. Paint the models you like. Get as creative as you like. Pick up a Tamiya or Revel Sherman and add it to your games. When you get bored with 40k, pick up another game. GW won't mind. They won't call and leave threatening messages. They'll just annoy someone else. People who want to enjoy the hobby will. If they're having fun building DIY they'll move on.

It just seems really odd that you've divided the hobby into GW and Everybody Else. That's a convenient way to pick the best of Everybody Else to make an unbeatable straw man in your mind, but if you take Everybody Else as separate entities as they should be, they are all flawed. Complaining that GW has managed to be successful enough to not just survive but even thrive after 25 years is rather petty. Their success is the reason that other TTMG have a market ready and willing to give them a chance.

If you really want to see a change, it's up to you to convince your friends to pick up a new game. There's plenty of reasons to slag GW, but you'll have more success promoting the benfits of a specific game rather than trying to convince people they're fools for enjoying their current hobby.

It depends what you want to see from a wargames company.

I've been wargaming for nearly 35 years, and I've never felt the need for one company to provide me with everything.

A high street shop that could provide me with everything would be nice, but unrealistic when there is so much choice available.

The restriction of GW is that, "It's our way or the highway."

On the plus side that forces the keener newbies to learn about alternatives. The rest of them are probably summer soldiers who would never have progressed anyway.

Vermillion wrote:casual drink a beer and drunkenly issue commands expecting the models to do them .

You, sir, are an absolute genius and have been spending too much time viewing the spy cameras in my garage. However much spying you've done, you failed to notice that I drink quite a bit more than "a" beer before spewing insensate commands at my firewarriors usually something like "why don't you kill something, anything, before you die!?!?!"

You should get into Napoleonics and play as Kutusov.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The restriction of GW is that, "It's our way or the highway."

I think that's a little harsh in terms of description, but not inaccurate in sentiment.

GW are like any other company in this regard. They don't really want you to be seen endorsing a competitors goods on their turf. It can be a little too much depending on your local stores staff, but in my experience, it's less heavy handed from HQ. A good comparisson would be buying a McDonalds, and eating it in a Burger King. You would understand the staff/manager getting narky and asking you to desist.

I mean, if you're in a GW run Tournament, event, store, whatever then it's not an unreasonable statute that you stick to predominantly their gubbins.

Conversions involving other companies models should be okay, as long as it looks mainly GW (so they would refuse a Warjack used as a Dreadnought, but not a Dreadnought incorporating Warjack parts, if that makes sense).

As for not using GW Paints and Glues, I have never heard of someone being booted out of a shop for this. They'd prefer you to use their products, sure, and might ask you to do so in future, but you wouldn't get kicked out or banned unless the Staff member is a complete knob.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW are like any other company in this regard. They don't really want you to be seen endorsing a competitors goods on their turf. It can be a little too much depending on your local stores staff, but in my experience, it's less heavy handed from HQ. A good comparisson would be buying a McDonalds, and eating it in a Burger King. You would understand the staff/manager getting narky and asking you to desist.

Conversions involving other companies models should be okay, as long as it looks mainly GW (so they would refuse a Warjack used as a Dreadnought, but not a Dreadnought incorporating Warjack parts, if that makes sense).

As for not using GW Paints and Glues, I have never heard of someone being booted out of a shop for this. They'd prefer you to use their products, sure, and might ask you to do so in future, but you wouldn't get kicked out or banned unless the Staff member is a complete knob.

I know this was in another thread but it just popped into my mind as I read your post.

I think that GW has seen the beenfits of licensing their IP with the Dawn of War franchise; it would be a small step to take this further and license out the writing of codex and rule books so that they could focus on their bread and butter, the models. Some book company could write everything and split the proceeds with GW.

Damn, I'm a genius; I should be running GW, not some slob with a gizillion years worth of business epxerience.

Might be possible in the future.

Aside from Dawn Of War, a better precedent has been set with the Fantasy Flight Games license, whereby they can produce lots of lovely boardgames, including classics based on GW's IP.

However, the rule writing and model design seem to be fairly well integrated, so how this would affect outsourcing I dunno!

Not a bad idea like, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

Mick A wrote:Sorry Ghidorah, have to disagree re GW Epic vs GHQ (although I agree with you 100% on the other stuff). Forge World Epic is on par with GHQ but not the normal metal stuff although it is nice.

Kilkrazy wrote:I haven't seen any of the Epic models.

I would be surprised and impressed if they were more detailed than GHQ who are regarded as the gold standard for micro-armour.

GHQ was certainly the gold standard, to be sure. Not only was the detailing nice, but the accuracy for something soooo small was very good, too. Again, though, GW gets a leg up for the fact that their catalog of minis is based in a non-reality so they can just go hog-wild with crazy, imaginative stuff on their models.

... and they did.


Here's a little comparison. In typical GW style, the scale is a little off between the two; GHQ being actual, W being exaggerated.





The accuracy of GHQ is not in question. It's the level of detail on the models. Like mentioned above, the Epic Falcon is a marvel. I just don't have any open packs of the new casts. Look art all the sandbags, stowage, etc. There's even teeny shells on the back of the Bassy and pintle-mounted Storm Bolters...




Ghidorah

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The restriction of GW is that, "It's our way or the highway."

I think that's a little harsh in terms of description, but not inaccurate in sentiment.

GW are like any other company in this regard. They don't really want you to be seen endorsing a competitors goods on their turf. It can be a little too much depending on your local stores staff, but in my experience, it's less heavy handed from HQ. A good comparisson would be buying a McDonalds, and eating it in a Burger King. You would understand the staff/manager getting narky and asking you to desist.

I mean, if you're in a GW run Tournament, event, store, whatever then it's not an unreasonable statute that you stick to predominantly their gubbins.

Conversions involving other companies models should be okay, as long as it looks mainly GW (so they would refuse a Warjack used as a Dreadnought, but not a Dreadnought incorporating Warjack parts, if that makes sense).

As for not using GW Paints and Glues, I have never heard of someone being booted out of a shop for this. They'd prefer you to use their products, sure, and might ask you to do so in future, but you wouldn't get kicked out or banned unless the Staff member is a complete knob.

You're quite right. Whether it's necessary or even a sign of strength or weakness is another thing.

You may be too young to remember Games Day in the mid to late 80s. It used to be a multi-denominational event; all kinds of games and publishers were on show.

Nowadays, Salute, Armageddon, Adepticon, Colours and so on are still multi-denominational and seem to be getting bigger every year. Games Day seems to be getting weaker. The US cancelled a lot of theirs.

Veterans know all this. GW are only trying to bamboozle the n00bs. I think it's because churning n00bs is their core target market.

The sad thing is plenty of vets play the GW core games and a number of the specialist games have a following -- WHAB, Warmaster, Trafalgar -- these are often seen at independent shows. I think GW are a bit paranoid about it and don't need to be. Their games can hold their head up in public.

I don't think they are trying to bamboozle people as such.

Hobby Gaming, whichever system you play, tends to be a very social and community based affair. GW being the main entry point, like to look after their interests by not promoting other systems, as sooner or later (especially with the Interwebs) the gamers will come into contact with them, and go from there.

As for the Specialist Games, I think it's a similar deal to the above. They tend to require smaller forces, thus have a lower expected sale level. And like other systems and settings, they are something the community tends to drive and promote. They are very interested in recruitment, and retention.

I hate to sound like a knobend, but the Veteran Community should be able to look after itself, and this seems to be where GW have slipped up (in so far as they laid it all on a bit thick, stifling the naturally creative edge of the overall Hobby). Getting better, but it's a long road.

I only recall seeing GW have a table once at an independent wargames show. They ran speed painting competition with the new plastic skinks (yes, this was just after 5th edition) and gave away various prizes to winners like badges and t-shirts.

Maybe now they don't think there's any point in engaging with the wider hobby. Everyone in the wider hobby has heard of them so there no real need to advertise to these people. And when it's on their turf (shops, tournaments and games days), they keep the competition out and hope that by supplying all the tools and paint they can keep noobs intirely in-house. It wouldn't suprise me if there are quite a number of GW players, especially younger ones, who don't know that there are alternative wargames companies. And that's a bit sad really because it's a rich and diverse hobby.

Games Day has gone *really* expensive in recent years too. I recall thinking I would get around to going once and being put off by the fact the ticket was £6. The model show I was going to that same weekend, not that far from the NEC incidentally, cost £1 to enter.

Last year that same show cost £2.50, though many other shows still cost less. It was £25 for a Games Day ticket last I looked!! Seems like the only advantage to Games Day is the chance to get all those exclusive figures, which you still have to pay top whack for. Big whooopee.

let the bamboozling commence. GW is like my crazy family; I love 'em to death but they annoy the living hell out of me.

I'd play other games but nobody around here plays anything else so I'm stuck with 40k to feed my hobby addiction and it's GW that's the pusher.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I only recall seeing GW have a table once at an independent wargames show. They ran speed painting competition with the new plastic skinks (yes, this was just after 5th edition) and gave away various prizes to winners like badges and t-shirts.

Maybe now they don't think there's any point in engaging with the wider hobby. Everyone in the wider hobby has heard of them so there no real need to advertise to these people. And when it's on their turf (shops, tournaments and games days), they keep the competition out and hope that by supplying all the tools and paint they can keep noobs intirely in-house. It wouldn't suprise me if there are quite a number of GW players, especially younger ones, who don't know that there are alternative wargames companies. And that's a bit sad really because it's a rich and diverse hobby.

Games Day has gone *really* expensive in recent years too. I recall thinking I would get around to going once and being put off by the fact the ticket was £6. The model show I was going to that same weekend, not that far from the NEC incidentally, cost £1 to enter.

Last year that same show cost £2.50, though many other shows still cost less. It was £25 for a Games Day ticket last I looked!! Seems like the only advantage to Games Day is the chance to get all those exclusive figures, which you still have to pay top whack for. Big whooopee.

GW used to have their own booth at GenCon. One of the draws was that they'd bring the
bitz Battlewagon in and you could get or order Forgeworld stuff with none of the international
shipping costs.

Yep. another example of GW's negativity. A few years ago, when 4th was coming out, my friend and I hosted a GW sponsored 40k tourney. They provided many prizes, including a pre-release 4th ed. rulebook. We had about 80 players and they (GW) brought enough terrain to cover the majority of the tables. They even gave me a big ol' boxfull of those foam ruins and barricades after the event.

That's a classic example of good GW.



Ghidorah

Lanrak wrote:

Enticing you customers to become reliant on you brand, then moaning about why the customers dont work things out them selves is hypocritical IMO.

Absolutely. Superb crystallisation of GW's attitude to customers.

When I started buying miniatures 20 years ago Grenadier and Ral Partha were the most popular manufacturers and GW was just coming up. Well, GW crushed both of those competitors, removing them as any form of serious competition. Ironically, mostly all of GW's current competitors were largely created by GW. Battlefront (Flames of War, GF9), Privateer Press, etc. employ former GW employees and in some cases a huge part of their development team or founding members are composed of former GW employees. The GW employees creating new companies or migrating with their expertise to existing ones has provided most of the serious competition for GW.

Personally, I like GW's models better than anyone else's and the hobby is all about the models for me. Like many other people who bought Grenadier and Ral Partha models years ago I gradually moved all of my model buying to GW and have had little interest in the models of newer competitors that have sprung up in recent years. But, it's a matter of personal taste and everyone is entitled to buy what they like best from the companies they like best.

GW singling out TalkBloodBowl for legal threats and intimidation is certainly another fine chapter in the history of the company.

Agamemnon2 wrote:GW singling out TalkBloodBowl for legal threats and intimidation is certainly another fine chapter in the history of the company.

Unfortunately for the site owner it's the name that caused issues. TalkBB would be safe, TalkBloodBowl is not.

Sad, yes, but could be resolved for $9.99 and a trip to GoDaddy.com.

Agamemnon2 wrote:GW singling out TalkBloodBowl for legal threats and intimidation is certainly another fine chapter in the history of the company.

And it seems another example of people viewing GW as evil for doing something that any other sensible company would do (protecting its IP... which considering IP laws is a very good idea)

They could have done it nicely by sending a non-legal letter asking the owner to change the name to something which doesn't infringe their copyright.

It's not like GW couldn't use as much support for Blood Bowl as they can get, unless of course they are planning to drop the whole line.

but a non-legal letter is exactly that, non-legal, so has no real standing in the realms of them protecting their IP- which is the reason in the end up for sending said letter

Don't I remember reading that you work for GW Bignutter?

Bignutter wrote:but a non-legal letter is exactly that, non-legal, so has no real standing in the realms of them protecting their IP- which is the reason in the end up for sending said letter

Not that it matters but you can send a nice letter (registered of course) asking the entity to ameliorate the problem before resorting to legal threats, there is precedent for it and many companies do it to this day; usually a nice, informal letter asking them to stop their activity followed by a legal cease and desist letter later. It's nicer and cheaper because you don't have to pay an overpriced attorney to pay and underpaid paralegal to write a legal letter. Guess which one I was for a goodly while.

It doesn't matter because it's already spilt milk. GW acted with a heavy hand and the end result is at least one less customer (as I'm sure the site owner at the very least will no longer purchase their products).

Bignutter wrote:but a non-legal letter is exactly that, non-legal, so has no real standing in the realms of them protecting their IP- which is the reason in the end up for sending said letter

There is a difference between a solicitor's letter threatening to bring suit, and a polite letter saying that GW wish the name to be changed because it infringes on their IP.

The second letter has just as much bearing on protection of the IP as the first, it is much nicer -- hopefully retaining the good will of the web site owner and users (if they care) -- and if it did not have the desired effect a proper solicitor's letter could be sent next.

What GW have achieved with their heavy handed threat is to provoke a crapstorm of argument and haet around the internet.

Bignutter wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:GW singling out TalkBloodBowl for legal threats and intimidation is certainly another fine chapter in the history of the company.

And it seems another example of people viewing GW as evil for doing something that any other sensible company would do (protecting its IP... which considering IP laws is a very good idea)

This is true to an extent, but why is Warhammer-Empire.com not affected? Or 40kRadio? or Bolter & Chainsword?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Bignutter wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:GW singling out TalkBloodBowl for legal threats and intimidation is certainly another fine chapter in the history of the company.

And it seems another example of people viewing GW as evil for doing something that any other sensible company would do (protecting its IP... which considering IP laws is a very good idea)

This is true to an extent, but why is Warhammer-Empire.com not affected? Or 40kRadio? or Bolter & Chainsword?

Because they are GW founded. Or so some Dakkites would have you believe.

Besides who knows if they are affected or not. Maybe they reached a compramise

Also Gw has the best FLuff out there. show me somebody who has more?

Maybe they will be next.

Maybe GW really are trying to close down BloodBowl for good -- I mean the game.

I think GW benefit a lot from the free amateur coverage they get, which if they wanted to generate by spamming adverts onto websites and Google would cost them a lot.

The downside is they get criticism and complaint as well. People complain about stuff they care about, so all complaint isn't bad, only GW don't respond to it.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Maybe GW really are trying to close down BloodBowl for good -- I mean the game.

I can't see that happening- based on the fact that its just specialist games models

I suspect that it's due to the recent computer game being made. Something about that reinvigorating the IP and causing GW legal to leap out and defend against the terrifying threat of hobbyist fansites!!

And yeah, I do remember that you work for GW now Bignutter.

Why does it matter if I do or have worked for GW exactly?

Personal bias.

Ghidorah wrote:[
IJN Akagi:

Why do I have the sudden desire to do a 70 degree dive, hit the release and shout "scratch one flattop!" Ah the memories of youth...

metallifan wrote:Is this the second or third thread that this OP has started? Sorry to the OP if I''m misinterpreting the tone, but it seems like you're one of the guys that was terrible at 40K fantasy, so you quit intead of trying to improve, and picked up some other game system that was so simple even an ape could win, and have now come back to troll the game you were so bad at by asking why other people enjoy it when (in your opinion) you couldn't win so clearly it sucked.

Don't insult apes, theyre quite clever.
I have no experience of TTMG but yeah everyone knows gw is overpriced but I like being able to play in-store.
The staff are (mostly) nice.
Based on my experience 'gw gaming' is not that bad.

Sidstyler wrote:Personal bias.

He could be biased either for or against, or not biased at all.

He could be either as you say. And maybe bribery's bad reputation is unjustified.

There's a whole branch of attachment theory (usually applied to mothers and babies) dealing with employers/employees. One day some psychologist is going to become rich and famous writing about GW.

Frazzled wrote:Why do I have the sudden desire to do a 70 degree dive, hit the release and shout "scratch one flattop!" Ah the memories of youth...

Mmmmmm... Dauntless-y goodness.



Ghidorah

Bignutter wrote:Why does it matter if I do or have worked for GW exactly?

Bacause you have posted in a very pro GW way in many threads and it's worthwhile noting that whilst this is your personal opinion and that's entirely fair and just, GW are paying your wages.

That it's a convenient way of ignoring an opinion generally better informed about certains intents than, oh, I dunno. An Interwebs Whinger?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That it's a convenient way of ignoring an opinion generally better informed about certains intents than, oh, I dunno. An Interwebs Whinger?

It could, in fact, be both biased and well-informed.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That it's a convenient way of ignoring an opinion generally better informed about certains intents than, oh, I dunno. An Interwebs Whinger?

Ah, the other minion shows up to play tag.

"GW are burning babies!!!1!" - internet whinger...

"But Jervis is feeling the cold in his old age and besides, have you seen how cool Greatswords are? Perhaps you'd like to buy a great battleboard to use them on and also let that nice Mr Kirby apply his fist to your arse in the vain hope it will shake more money out of your wallet whilst you're paying?" - internet GW apologist...and employee...

Keep fighting the good fight Doc.

No personal attacks!

She's hot. Do you think she plays Warhams?

Killkrazy you find all the best pics. That's going on my desk at work next to Victoria Pendleton (exceptionally gorgeous Olympic gold medal winning cyclist)

Ahem, back on topic...

EDIT - I should point out that Victoria Pendleton does not sit on my desk at work on account of having better things to do like training and stuff. I was of course refering to a picture that I really should be replace with a photo of my wife.

Ah that pic made me all natsukashi, she looks like a lot of my students. You know it's hard to teach at a Japanese high-school without feeling like a dirty old man.

Anywho.
Yeah, down with GW!!!! heh.

I recently started playing 40K, though for a long time I refused to play any TTMG, from my own observations of some of the players. I would see grown men, with massive armies of beautifully painted minis, go berserk and wreck their armies because of bad dice rolls. When I first had interest in 40K, I went to a shop and was patronized by players who felt that as a girl, I wouldn't have serious interest in the game.
There are bad players of all types, not just exclusive to 40K. As far as products go, while a bit pricey, the paints and models are of excellent quality, in my humble opinion. Not all pieces are perfect, that is the downfall of mass production,but it's nothing that some patience and craftiness can't cure. I have friends that play Warmachine, and they experience many of the same problems that GW players experience.
As for the GW stores, the nearest one to me isn't the best. It isn't very big, and some of the staff are elitist jerks. It's quite demoralizing to go to this store with some painted models, only to have the staff rip on your technique, especially when their critique is unsolicited. Of course, I'm sure that this store does not set the standard of all GW store, as I have heard great reviews of other locations. As for the players, my boyfriend and most of our friends play, and I enjoy meeting new players and discussing tactics and painting tips.
I have attended some wargaming conventions and find that a good number of wargamers play 40K/Fantasy in addition to the more historical games. When I asked them why, majority of them cited the fluff. I love the history of the 40K universe, and I think that draws as many newcomers in as any other aspect of the game.
As a military history buff, I do plan on investing in a historical army, but finding other players can be challenging. One of the great points of Warhammer is the ease of finding new players. I recently moved to a town where I know almost no one, and it was comforting to be able to go to a game shop and connect with other games in the area.
All in all, GW has both it's pros and cons, but so does every other game. It all boils down to these factors: time, money and player base. The priority of the factors ultimately help determine what game is best for what player. Really, it's all about having fun, and that's what really matters.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it.

Yomama, it's a well known fact that women make terrible 40k players; it may be from a lacking in the necessary nerd gene which seems tied somehow to the Y chromosome...

Now now, there's no need for violence, please put down the nice, big, shiney cleaver you're holding... erk.

agnosto wrote:Yomama, it's a well known fact that women make terrible 40k players; it may be from a lacking in the necessary nerd gene which seems tied somehow to the Y chromosome...

Now now, there's no need for violence, please put down the nice, big, shiney cleaver you're holding... erk.

Good work agnosto, I hope that was ironic sexism.

EDIT - And for what it's worth yomamamancer, a very considered post.

Flashman wrote:

agnosto wrote:Yomama, it's a well known fact that women make terrible 40k players; it may be from a lacking in the necessary nerd gene which seems tied somehow to the Y chromosome...

Now now, there's no need for violence, please put down the nice, big, shiney cleaver you're holding... erk.

Good work agnosto, I hope that was ironic sexism.

Yeah, missed the irony button on the keyboard while I was typing that.
No offense intended.

Cool

We probably do need a "I'm being ironic" Orkmoticon

No offense taken, I know that female gamers are a rare breed... And by the way, I prefer axes to cleavers.

agnosto wrote:Yomama, it's a well known fact that women make terrible 40k players; it may be from a lacking in the necessary nerd gene which seems tied somehow to the Y chromosome...

Wait thats not accurate?

HI all.
Perhaps I am bieng mis-understood?

The Table top minatures game hobby ;-
Allows you to collect -paint-convert ANY minatures you want to , from ANY company.
You can use ANY hobby tools and hobby meduim from whatever source you prefer.
It allows you to use ANY rule sets YOU and YOUR gaming buddies like the best, from ANY company.
Alows you to play at whatever level of detail simulation or competitivness that suits YOU!.

The GW hobby, involves buying minatures from GW.
Using GWs hobby tools and materials, to paint- convert the GW minatures within defined guidelines.
Using GW rules and codexes-army books that set the level of detail and competitivness.
(And as GW doesnt think game play is that important GW wants YOU to sort out rules issues amonst yourselves!)

The creativity and social interaction is THE TTMG hobby.
The restrictions and extra expence appear to be the 'GW HOBBY'.

GW is 'convienient' but prices its products to cover this convinence.(At least double the RRP of products available elsewhere.)
The TTMG hobby INCOURAGES independant thought and creativity.IMO.
The 'GW hobby' just incourages purchasing a partucular brand . IMO.

I hope this makes my point a bit clearer.

Yomamancer.
If you are interested in Historical gaming , see if you can find a mature gaming group to introduce you to the hobby.Or if you are interested in a particualr period, perhaps I could help by suggesting some rule sets?

Happy Gaming
Lanrak.

HI all.
Perhaps I am bieng mis-understood?

Possibly. Let me respond to your points and try and explain my issues with your complaints.

The Table top minatures game hobby ;-
Allows you to collect -paint-convert ANY minatures you want to , from ANY company.
You can use ANY hobby tools and hobby meduim from whatever source you prefer.
It allows you to use ANY rule sets YOU and YOUR gaming buddies like the best, from ANY company.
Alows you to play at whatever level of detail simulation or competitivness that suits YOU!.

You've consolidated every other company out there into a single entity to compare GW to. "It allows you to use any other..." Really? Who's "IT"? If I show up at a Hordes tournament and put my Confrontation minis on the table and tell them I'm using Heroclix rules, does this mean my opponent isn't allowed to beat me to death with a red whippy stick? 'cause even if "IT" supports this, I'm thinking my opponent might be a bit put off.

The GW hobby, involves buying minatures from GW.
Using GWs hobby tools and materials, to paint- convert the GW minatures within defined guidelines.
Using GW rules and codexes-army books that set the level of detail and competitivness.
(And as GW doesnt think game play is that important GW wants YOU to sort out rules issues amonst yourselves!)

GW has never asked me to remove the Vallejo paints from my minis. I even won a pretty big painting competition once, and they didn't even ask about the paints I used. Ignorant fools...

I've also played several 40k games with unoffical minis. In one, I used a cell-phone as a Rhino. I expected GW Special Forces to burst though my window at any second to confiscate my gear, but to this day I've never even received a formal admonishment. Wierd, no?

And I think you'll find players set the level of competitiveness of games, not rules. You've got rules-nazis and paint-fascists on this very board.

You are correct that GW is very stringent when it comes to tournaments, but I'm willing to forego my cel-phone rhino for WYSIWYG to make everyone's life a bit easier.

The creativity and social interaction is THE TTMG hobby.
The restrictions and extra expence appear to be the 'GW HOBBY'.

Really? I've seen Flintstone-themed marines in WH40k, but I'm sure a "Hello-Kitty" themed Wehrmacht army would be frowned upon in Flames of War.

And I've met a hell of a lot more people through GW games than Confrontation. ("...Confrontation? What the hell's that?)

GW is 'convienient' but prices its products to cover this convinence.(At least double the RRP of products available elsewhere.)
The TTMG hobby INCOURAGES independant thought and creativity.IMO.
The 'GW hobby' just incourages purchasing a partucular brand . IMO.

Why is convenience a bad thing? Anything that gets new blood involved in the hobby gets a big thumbs-up in my book. Personally I get my art supplies at an art store, but that's not always possible for new-comers who don't even have a driver's licence.

Plus I think you'll find a lot of that "encouragement" from smaller companies is to fill voids in their own product lineup, rather than an altruistic recommendation to buy their competitor's products.

I hope this makes my point a bit clearer.
...
Happy Gaming
Lanrak.

I can see you're very dissatisfied with GW, which is your right. But I think your argument that GW is diametrically opposed to every other TTMG out there is a bit of a stretch.

Hi Mastiff.
Nope you still are missing the point.
The hobby is the Table top minature gameing hobby.

GWPLC insist on calling it the 'GW hobby' to promote insular marketing for thier own products.

This is what I object to.

All the positive creativity and interaction is the TTMG hobby.

GW just restrict the focus to GW product and pretend its all there is!
And many new customers belive this.
And you do pay more for convineince at GW stores .(Most convenience stores put on 25 to 50 % mark up, not 200% to 1800%!)

My beef is with the fat and lazy corperate managment at GW towers.
Can not compete in an open market, then create an artificialy closed one!(The GW hobby.)
Customers demanding better games, find less demanding customers!(Focus on new customers only.)

No other company producing product for the TTMG pretend to be the entire hobby.
And if the 3 core GW games dont suit you , you may leave GW thinking the TTMG hobby is not for you, and miss out on ALL the other options!

Is this clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Mastiff.
Nope you still are missing the point.
The hobby is the Table top minature gameing hobby.

GWPLC insist on calling it the 'GW hobby' to promote insular marketing for thier own products.

This is what I object to.

All the positive creativity and interaction is the TTMG hobby.

GW just restrict the focus to GW product and pretend its all there is!
And many new customers belive this.
And you do pay more for convineince at GW stores .(Most convenience stores put on 25 to 50 % mark up, not 200% to 1800%!)

My beef is with the fat and lazy corperate managment at GW towers.
Can not compete in an open market, then create an artificialy closed one!(The GW hobby.)
Customers demanding better games, find less demanding customers!(Focus on new customers only.)

No other company producing product for the TTMG pretend to be the entire hobby.
And if the 3 core GW games dont suit you , you may leave GW thinking the TTMG hobby is not for you, and miss out on ALL the other options!

Is this clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

So you have beef with the idea that GW are setting themselves up to basically be a one-stop shop for everything you need to get the models, modeling supplies, terrain and rules to play their games? That is the goal at the end of the day- to allow people to walk into a GW store and get EVERYTHING they need (Even down to waterpots and gamingtables) Surely it would be stupid to push and promote alternatives when they stock a given item. Can anyone actually give a reason why any company would turn round and say "Yeah you don't need to buy our glue, you can get it next door for a pound less"

Also claiming the focus is completely on new customers seems strange because surely its the established customer base that drive the demand for new models, armies, rules, expansions, terrain etc...

Bignutter wrote:
Also claiming the focus is completely on new customers seems strange because surely its the established customer base that drive the demand for new models, armies, rules, expansions, terrain etc...

Actually, as someone that spends 2-3 days a week working on models in a local GW store, I get to watch alot of the "staff training" and in fact the manager regularly tells his red shirts that the goal is "recruitment recruitment recruitment" and "for every 3 starter sets we sell, we should be selling at least 2 Academy classes".

While us smart people know that it's the established niche fanbase that drives the game. GW doesn't really care about us because for the most part, we'll still spend the money. So it's "recruitment recruitment recruitment".

Howlingmoon wrote:

Bignutter wrote:
Also claiming the focus is completely on new customers seems strange because surely its the established customer base that drive the demand for new models, armies, rules, expansions, terrain etc...

Actually, as someone that spends 2-3 days a week working on models in a local GW store, I get to watch alot of the "staff training" and in fact the manager regularly tells his red shirts that the goal is "recruitment recruitment recruitment" and "for every 3 starter sets we sell, we should be selling at least 2 Academy classes".

While us smart people know that it's the established niche fanbase that drives the game. GW doesn't really care about us because for the most part, we'll still spend the money. So it's "recruitment recruitment recruitment".

And that may well be what the focus is for the retail staff- and the stores in general, that doesn't mean the vets are ignored- heck who do you think the staff chat to, help out with projects and generally interact with when they aren't recruiting new players?

It does make good sense that they should concentrate their efforts on talking to those new people and showing them what its all about- but that doesn't mean that they should or do flat out ignore and not bother with the vets.


My point does also still stand though- because the realms of what goes on in stores is very different from the wider world- as can be seen by the vast majority of people who don't game at their local store, or indeed do not have a local GW

Lanrak wrote:Hi Mastiff.
Nope you still are missing the point.
The hobby is the Table top minature gameing hobby.

GWPLC insist on calling it the 'GW hobby' to promote insular marketing for thier own products.

This is what I object to.

All the positive creativity and interaction is the TTMG hobby.

GW just restrict the focus to GW product and pretend its all there is!
And many new customers belive this.
And you do pay more for convineince at GW stores .(Most convenience stores put on 25 to 50 % mark up, not 200% to 1800%!)

My beef is with the fat and lazy corperate managment at GW towers.
Can not compete in an open market, then create an artificialy closed one!(The GW hobby.)
Customers demanding better games, find less demanding customers!(Focus on new customers only.)

No other company producing product for the TTMG pretend to be the entire hobby.
And if the 3 core GW games dont suit you , you may leave GW thinking the TTMG hobby is not for you, and miss out on ALL the other options!

Is this clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Much clearer, thanks.

I got sidetracked disputing your points, (sorry about that) but what I wanted to say was this; take a break if it bothers you this much.

I'm not saying "STFU and GTFO" but honestly, take six months off from the hobby and see if you miss it. You've had so many posts that make your frustration and dissatisfaction clear. How much fun are you still getting out of the game? Why do you stay?

Life's waaay to short to let any business rob of you of your joy in life. This is supposed to be fun. Whenever this stops being fun I leave the game. Sometimes I'll take up a new game, like Confrontation for a few years. Other times I just quit gaming altogether and find completely different hobbies. I take only what I need from GW, and ignore the rest. Their success in marketing means that they'll still be in business if and when I decide to return. That's incredibly rare in this industry. Think of comparable properties like Battletech and Dungeons & Dragons. They keep dying and needing resurrection over and over again. The "convenience" factor of GW has been effective in keeping the company alive for an unprecedented 25 years. Yeah, they can be obnoxious, but if they're selling they're still breathing. And I don't have to listen.

But obviously I don't really know you, just the frustration I see in your posts. Good luck with the game, I hope you you're still getting some fun out of it, enough to justify putting up with all the crap.

GW do what any company would do. Promote their products, and their products alone.

It's the customer who finds out about alternatives.

I still fail to see the great evil at work here?

Hi MDG.
I have no problem with folks going into a Sony shop and buying Sony product,McDonanlds and buying McDonalds product. OR going into a GW shop and buying GW (Citadel) product.

Simply having your own brand shop for your own brand product is NOT the issue.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.

How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

(I have moved on , and found alternative products that suit me better. )

But reading these boards, SO MANY other gamers feel compelled to stay with GW products even thought they are not that happy with them.(Rules especialy...)
Are they all aware of the alternatives?

How many posts ask 'can I use this substitute-conversion in a game..'

Its YOUR hobby, not GWs!

As the newbs are told its 'GW hobby' therfore they feel they need permission from GW to adapt it to suit them perhaps?

The 'GW hobby' is a creation of the corperate management to inflict an 'insular marketing dynamic' on a 'vunerable demoghraphic'.

All the great stuff, the creativity and the social interaction happens when you take part in the Table Top Minature Gaming Hobby.
If you limit yourself to using a particular brand of product it doesnt change the name of the hobby, just restricts your options!

Is this any clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

You know, i have a love hate relationship with GW, no other company i know of in the mini industry has managed to draw such Fanatical fans or such hate, and i think thats because other games at least listen to the fan base, where as GW clearly doesnt listen to anyone except themselves. look at every release in the past 5 years and its all the tired 'were excited' line. But thats how they do business. it suxs that no one is called in to give an honest assessment of some of the crap they put out.

On the other hand, and i know its already been said, i strongly belive that GW is a large part of why the hobby exists as it does today, without them TTG would be a smaller less happy place. so love em or hate em, both points of view are valid.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.
How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

Lanrak, do you really believe newcomers are unaware of other mini games out there? This board constantly posts minis from other games. And you won't find a town that can support a GW shop, but isn't already supporting an independent hobby shop. It's safe to say that if a person can find Dakka, they can find alternatives to GW. That they choose to stick with one game isn't due to a conspiracy.

Sony and McDonalds would be ecstatic if people believed that there were no alternatives. But sticking with GW, they do what they do. They sell their own product. Dakka does a great job of exposing people to alternatives. Look what we've got in just the last day or two:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265161.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258011.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265026.page

Informing so-called "newbs" is OUR responsibility, not any company's. If you feel other TTMGs are under-represented, then post more options, post more pics, post more product reviews. Do the same in real life. Repeatedly complaining that a company isn't spending enough money promoting their competitor's wares? That's just silly.

Wayfarer wrote:I just don't think of civil war miniatures collectors as participating much in the gaming portion of TTMG. To them it seems it's more about collecting a historically accurate force and then admiring the attention to detail.

And recreating a battle down to its exacting minutia isn't much of a game either wouldn't you say?

Satisfying to some I'm sure but not really gaming.

Wow, way to understand TTG. It has a much longer and richer histroy than GW's roughly 20 years or so.

Its actually alot more than that, N00b.

Modquisition on.

OK Ok lets keep it polite here or this thread will be closed blah blah.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does...

Absolutely. It's almost as bad as when one hobbyist decides that his personal opinion of the hobby is correct, and everyone else is either wrong or evil, and rants about it forever and ever ...oh, wait

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Lanrak wrote:How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

How on earth is this relevant to well... anything?

Lanrak wrote:Hi MDG.
I have no problem with folks going into a Sony shop and buying Sony product,McDonanlds and buying McDonalds product. OR going into a GW shop and buying GW (Citadel) product.

Simply having your own brand shop for your own brand product is NOT the issue.

But if you infer your product range is ALL their is ,as the 'GW hobby' does.

How many GW newbs are aware of the wider TTMG hobby?

(I have moved on , and found alternative products that suit me better. )

But reading these boards, SO MANY other gamers feel compelled to stay with GW products even thought they are not that happy with them.(Rules especialy...)
Are they all aware of the alternatives?

How many posts ask 'can I use this substitute-conversion in a game..'

Its YOUR hobby, not GWs!

As the newbs are told its 'GW hobby' therfore they feel they need permission from GW to adapt it to suit them perhaps?

The 'GW hobby' is a creation of the corperate management to inflict an 'insular marketing dynamic' on a 'vunerable demoghraphic'.

All the great stuff, the creativity and the social interaction happens when you take part in the Table Top Minature Gaming Hobby.
If you limit yourself to using a particular brand of product it doesnt change the name of the hobby, just restricts your options!

Is this any clearer?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Righty dokey skip. Before I go much further, I will point out I've had a few pints tonight, so bare with.

How many NooBs know about non-GW games? Very few, to none. Why? Because GW, apart from all other hobby wargame manufacturers, have High Street Presence. They bother to invest time and money setting up Hobby Stores. Stores where you can go in completely clueless, and leave with everything you could ever possibly need to start up. Board? Check. Rules? Check. Background stuff? Check. Paints? Check. Tools? Checks. Brushes? Check.

They are a complete hobby unto themselves, within the wider TTWG hobby. Newbs are unaware of the wider hobby, because they are newbs. No other company has bothered to reach out and make their presence felt to them. I started off with Heroquest, then a friend picked up a random copy of White Dwarf (Blood Angels cover, first instance of Captain Tycho) and my fate was sealed. All your vaunted rivals...what effort do they put in?

As for creativty etc coming in when you break from GW is bollocks, and you know it. The game system is a giant sandbox. Want to play a 'What If?' scenario? Do it. Want to refight the pivotal battles of the Heresy? Do it. The only thing limiting a gamer is themselves. NOT a company.

You hate GW. We get this, and fair enough. But if all you can do is present one dimensional arguments, I will worry about you.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I have often seen people quote the creativity and social interactions of 'the hobby' are its strenghts.
Which is very true, but these apply to the wider 'table top minature gaming' hobby.

They are not just applicable to the 'GW branded' version of it.(The GW hobby.)

In fact the 'GW hobby' just appears to have far more negatives than the wider table top minature gaming hobby.

More restrictions and expence,with less direct suport for gamers and game play.

Can anyone point out the real bonuses of the 'GW hobby' over the more generic 'table top minature gameing ' hobby?

I am hoping to get a debate on how the 'GW hobby' compares to the TTMG hobby in general.

TTFN

I play GW 40k, and Fantasy. I also play Flames of War. I will say my flames crowd is a better treat, but they don't come out but once a week to my local club. GW is far far more organized. White Dwarf is great, and Citidal minis are the best in the biz. If you live in a big city with one, the GW stores are also a great resource.
Lanrak.

HI again.
MDG.
I dont 'HATE GW '.
But wish to question the validity of the buisness decisions and the wider impact on the consumer that they have.

GW have a product range you can use to start a TTMG hobby with.This doesnt mean it it a seperate hobby , even though GW want to try to promote this distinction.

GW run a chain of shops to sell this stock.(As they thought the internet was a passing fad! .)This costs A LOT of money to do, so they choose to maximise returns off new customers.

This means 'educating' the new customers to think GW is the ONLY source of TTMG product.

I didnt say you could not be creative with the range of GW products.
Just the inferance of the 'GW Hobby' often leads to people 'asking permission' to move away from the GW examples!

GW try to instill GW brand dependancy in its customers , to maximise returns, yet feel no compulsion to support customers who have game play issues.
They infer...'You must ONLY use GW hobby product other wise you are not doing it right..'
Then when it comes to rules...'we have not got a clue how to write a well defined and comprehensive rule set, so just make it up your self..'
This disjiont in cusomer directives causes some problems , IMO.

My point was the TTMG hobby is the creative and socialy interactive hobby we ALL enjoy.
The 'GW hobby' is a misnomer , dreamed up by corperate managment to maintian brand loyalty through inforced insular marketing structure.

GW are in the buisness of selling minatures.
But pretend to care about game play and game development.(To promote new minature releases.)
And supply a lot of rebranded product at atificialy inflated prices.
And then claim to be a seperate hobby.

I personaly think this is not the most efficient way of conducting buisness.(And not ethicaly right.)

To clarify ,I did not mean to infer GW non rules product were inferior quality , or you couldnt enjoy using GW product.

TTFN
Lanrak.

As they thought the internet was a passing fad!

I think they still do.

There is a world of difference between not mentioning the existence of something, and denying it's existence.

But why would anyone expect to go into a GW store thinking the store is going to promote and sell Warmachine or Infinity or whatever.

Nobody goes into a Ford dealer expecting to see Chevy's on display and have the Ford salesman pitch a talk about how good Chevy's are.

So I'm confused as to why it's wrong that GW promotes ONLY their product in their stores and ONLY tries to get customers to buy THEIR product. As far as I know no other corporation in the world promotes other companies/corporations products and nobody I know gets upset over that.

Weird.

I've also looked into other rules sets and I just don't get the same vibe I do with 40k. I see no faction in Warmachine that jumps out at me or is even close to similiar to the armies I play in 40k ('Nids and Daemons) and as much as I like WW2 I won't get into FoW as nobody else around here even has an interest in it and if I want my WW2 fix I'll just play CoD or watch some ww2 movies.

So while their might be better rules sets out there none of them offer me the same army/force choices and feel that my Tyranids give me or that Daemons give me; not to mention most miniature ranges outside of GW are crap (PP comes close as well but hard to "counts as" a 'Nid army with WM figs, not to mention PP is now not much cheaper than GW when it comes to mini pricing).

Hi Fateweaver.
I am ONLY objecting to the misnomer. the 'GW HOBBY'.

GW have a selection of shops selling product that can be used in the TTMG hobby.

But the term 'GW hobby' infers 'this is all there is' , and that the 'hobby' belongs to GW!

This is what I am objecting to.

(PS. Have you looked at 'No limits', or 'Xenocide Firefight' ? If you can use your current 40k minatures with alternative rule sets that are free to down load, most gamers will give them a go!)

MDG. I dont expect GW stores to tell thier customers to by hobby products in other stores at a fraction of the price.(Even though I know of a few good GW staff that do. )

But just stop using the term the 'GW hobby'.As it just re-enforces restrictive ideas.

If no-one else belives that its that important, then simply refering to 'the hobby ' in stead of the 'GW hobby', wont be a big problem for GW PLC, will it?
May be you could be kind enough to suggest this to your bosses MDG?

Happy gameing
Lanrak.

Hi Lanrak,

Are you arguing semantics now? To me the 'GW Hobby' is 'inclusive of GW products' I dont see how that can cause any ire or anger or warrant any.

To be redundant GW do not have to acknowledge the hobby outside of their own interests, they are not trying to own the hobby, miniature gaming, or whatever but as a business they are trying to make their hobby THE hobby.

Is it really the wording or the ideal? if it is the ideal then are you only complaining for complaining sake? because its GW? If this truly bothers you I would have thought that other major companies and industries manufacturing and supplying products for consumption would be targets for you as well? Microsoft, Sony? Apple, Tesco? Vauxhall? they want your money and are not going to tell you to go elsewhere? implied with a piece of text or not.

I'm just trying to understand why this is such a big deal.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Fateweaver.
I am ONLY objecting to the misnomer. the 'GW HOBBY'.

GW have a selection of shops selling product that can be used in the TTMG hobby.

But the term 'GW hobby' infers 'this is all there is' , and that the 'hobby' belongs to GW!

This is what I am objecting to.

(PS. Have you looked at 'No limits', or 'Xenocide Firefight' ? If you can use your current 40k minatures with alternative rule sets that are free to down load, most gamers will give them a go!)

MDG. I dont expect GW stores to tell thier customers to by hobby products in other stores at a fraction of the price.(Even though I know of a few good GW staff that do. )

But just stop using the term the 'GW hobby'.As it just re-enforces restrictive ideas.

If no-one else belives that its that important, then simply refering to 'the hobby ' in stead of the 'GW hobby', wont be a big problem for GW PLC, will it?
May be you could be kind enough to suggest this to your bosses MDG?

Happy gameing
Lanrak.

You're contradicting yourself. You don't like GW "infering" that their version of the hobby is the only one out there. But you don't want them to differentiate their version of the hobby from the overall TTMG experience by calling it "GW hobby" vs a more general "the hobby". Yet you make it very clear you do think there is a difference between the two...

Would you feel better if they changed their phrasing to "the hobby" and claimed to speak for the entire Tabletop Miniature Gaming experience?. They're making it clear that they're only pushing their own version of the hobby.

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Cool, but guess what? Without GW, you wouldn't have Flames of War.

Flames was designed as a system that could be played in 2-3 hours, and could support tournaments. No coincidence at all that there is heavy GW influence on some of the game design, the packaging, marketing, etc. 90% of the head guys are all ex-GW people, from John-Paul, all the way down to 75% of the people at the US warehouse. And don't forget Dave Taylor over at Wargames Illustrated.

There has always been a lot of WWII miniature games available to play, so why is it that FOW have brought in so many new players?)

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

This I would guess is all based on your personal experience?

Over the years, GW have carved out their niche in an already nice market, expanded it, and arguably revitalised the Hobby overall. Every single gamer I know got into the Hobby via GW. Every last one of them. Indeed, it's only been the past what, 6 years that possible rivals in the shape of PP and FoW have got their toe in the door, and even then they can currently only dream of GW's level of sales and gamers.

And correct me if I wrong (I might well be) but FoW is a pre-painted system is it not? Don't know a great deal about it. But if it is, then sadly it's less of a Hobby Game, and more of a Wargame. In order to qualify as a Hobby, it needs to go beyond the gaming board (painting, modelling, conversions). Whilst there is nothing stopping this happening on a gamer to game basis, the system itself is not designed with it in mind.

mikhaila wrote:

Empchild wrote:

mikhaila wrote:[i]

You don't like GW, ignore them.

In my opinion, GW have done far more for miniature gaming of any type, than any other company. Their games have made the difference in many stores staying open, and they give very good support to those stores. Those stores in turn can support other games.

Actually flames of war has brought more gamers in in shorter time span then GW. And has shown a newer generation of gamming the joy of the hobby. I love GW models dont get me wrong, but I have meet more people who know of flames of war then GW. When I tell people I play warhammer they say oo what level toon do you have......

Cool, but guess what? Without GW, you wouldn't have Flames of War.

Flames was designed as a system that could be played in 2-3 hours, and could support tournaments. No coincidence at all that there is heavy GW influence on some of the game design, the packaging, marketing, etc. 90% of the head guys are all ex-GW people, from John-Paul, all the way down to 75% of the people at the US warehouse. And don't forget Dave Taylor over at Wargames Illustrated.

There has always been a lot of WWII miniature games available to play, so why is it that FOW have brought in so many new players?)

There haven't always been a lot of WW2 games available. In the 80s there were only a few rulebooks on the market and they generally dealt with microarmour scales.

It isn't a new idea to make a game playable in 2-3 hours and tournament friendly. WRG and DBA did it long before GW.

The clever thing about FoW is to have designed a system which works well with a company level skirmish, allowing the use of 15mm figures which combine visual appeal and good palyable size on the table. The presentation is good and the rules are accessible to newcomers.

Packaging and presentation qualities were already being found in wargame rules of the 80s such as GDW's Striker.

I'm not saying anything against GW -- they've done a lot for wargaming -- it just annoys me to hear people seem to say that GW invented or reinvented the TTWG hobby. What happened is they rode the crest of a wave of change that was already moving.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This I would guess is all based on your personal experience?

Over the years, GW have carved out their niche in an already nice market, expanded it, and arguably revitalised the Hobby overall. Every single gamer I know got into the Hobby via GW. Every last one of them. Indeed, it's only been the past what, 6 years that possible rivals in the shape of PP and FoW have got their toe in the door, and even then they can currently only dream of GW's level of sales and gamers.

And correct me if I wrong (I might well be) but FoW is a pre-painted system is it not? Don't know a great deal about it. But if it is, then sadly it's less of a Hobby Game, and more of a Wargame. In order to qualify as a Hobby, it needs to go beyond the gaming board (painting, modelling, conversions). Whilst there is nothing stopping this happening on a gamer to game basis, the system itself is not designed with it in mind.

A: GW in the way of years yes has an amazing foundation so of coarse overall they are going to be stronger. If you compare it to a fact of numbers/sales per year per capita and such. I.E I sell this much to indy retailers this year and match it with other companies. Then GW is well in the tank comparitivly speaking to Battlefront, and Privateer Press. profits wise these companies are actually generating money and being smart with their expansions as oppossed to GW which int he past 5 years has been unable to show a solid gain at their annual stock holders meetings. Now GW did start in the UK and from what I have heard it is run much more efficently then the division here in the US. That said it can be based on personal experience to a degree.

B: Please do some form of mild research before you go into a paragraph of explanation on weather or not somethings a hobby as FOW is unpainted tried and true and the buyer is required to paint(well sorta) the models for game play. A hobby is defined by websters dictionary as "An activity that one enjoys doing in one's spare time" . This by no means implies that if i can't convert something or paint it it is a game and not a hobby.

Couldn't give a Rats what the definition of 'Hobby' is in a Dictionary.

A Wargame is a hobby.

A Hobby Game is a game involving lots of activites beyond just the gaming side.

Now as I said, is your original statement based only on your opinion and experience, or on something tangible and measurable?

As for the companies generating money...without them being PLC (and thus having to show their results) how can you be sure?

...... do people actually read full post or just sumerize? I answered all your questions in the post but since you didnt seem to understand what I wrote here it is.

YES IT IS A MATTER OF WHAT COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN SO YES PERSONAL/TANGIBLE OPINON.

and hobbies arent just games they can be collecting stamps sowing, writing, or in this case debating.

Mad DoK-

You might be thinking of the Axis and Allies pre-painted game from Wotc/Hasbro.

Flames of War is a 15mm WWII wargame, and comes unpainted in a very similar way to GW. You purchase it in blisters and boxes, glue the resin/pewter bitz together, primer and paint. And make scenery, objective markers, etc. Has a lot in common with GW style wargames, but also draws heavily from traditional historical wargames.

I tend to use a lot more train scenery materials when I make FOW scenery for our tables. FOW gamers (usually) are in it at least in part because of the history, and tend to try to paint their models, (on average) a bit more than a beginning GW gamer. They also take a bit more interest in the scenery used in games.

I'd say probably 95% of my FOW gamers have at some time played GW games. There's also a steady flow into Warhammer Ancients at this point.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not saying anything against GW -- they've done a lot for wargaming -- it just annoys me to hear people seem to say that GW invented or reinvented the TTWG hobby. What happened is they rode the crest of a wave of change that was already moving.

This statement fascinates me. They rode the crest of change? Horsepucky. 25 years ago they weren't any other companies offering organized miniature fantasy wargaming. Ral Partha was producing nice minis, but no rules. TSR was the major force in driving RPGs, but no minis (except as placeholders and game aids). Later came Battletech and Car Wars, but still not minature wargaming, they were cardboard. There were historical games available, but very obscure poorly supported. Most wargames used chits, not minis, except for home-grown rules for 1:72 plastics.

Warhammer was the first TTMG to start advertising in Dragon magazine, and get a toehold in North America. There really wasn't any TTMG competition until the mid 90s, when GW was releasing 3rd ed. Warhammer and 2nd ed. 40k.

So I'm not sure what crest they rode. I'm pretty confident they were the crest that made VOR and Void and Hordes and Confrontation and Infiniti worth investing in by hobby shops.

honestly the wargamming hobby has been around a very long time. Hell the germans in ww2 often played wargames, and we have evidence of the romans even doing such things. Any true gamer though can not argue that the forefathers of Modern gamming should all relate to Brig. Peter Young(I think ti was peter). All the publications he produced in the 70's really helped pave the way into wargamming hobby as we know it. That said GW has had a magor influence on a lot of fantasy wargamming, but they are by no accounts the end all be all. They are a super power in the hobby world that is for sure, especially with their accuasition of Wargames Foundry, but they wouldnt even be anywhere if it wasnt for some of the greatest mini sculptors of our generation. The perry brothers are really the true diamon in the rouf for any company.

They bought Wargames Foundry? When? Never heard of that happening.

Sorry if this sounds accusatory, but it's news to me and is meant to be a genuine sound of 'huh?'

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They bought Wargames Foundry? When? Never heard of that happening.

Sorry if this sounds accusatory, but it's news to me and is meant to be a genuine sound of 'huh?'

years ago honestly I believe it was in the earlier part of the decade. That was why the perry's formed perry miniatures since the holdings they held in foundry were sold. I know if you work for gw you get a killer discount with foundry. I used it a few times was like 65% I think. I havent worked for GW since 2006 so im not totally sure on what it was.

Hold on. Is Foundry different from Wargames Foundry?

I though Fat Bloke set up Wargames Foundry? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

GW is very important now as it was in the past... although the idea that GW somehow created this hobby is somewhat... err how should I put this in a polite way... naive?
Wargaming with miniatures goes way, way back so back we probably dont know for a fact when all this started... chess is a popular way to dig into the past because as we know its one of the wargaming starters...

Also miniatures goes back to primitive man...

I dont know, but it seems way to much credits, on our rich/old games history, for just a 25 year reality.

As for more ontopic opinion, I understand what OP is trying to say, its like the tacticas of brainwashing GW employs may not be in the best interest of us as hobby persons... In some way the futurologies some of us make with arguments like " If it wasnt for GW we would not have this"... how do you know these things for sure? Maybe we would have just the same things in diferent moulds, I dont know ( and dont think anyone can know that), kind of gives the OP a good point on how bombarded and assimilated we are about the brainwashes...

I think there are diferent levels of hobby persons, some are happy with just GW, others try diferent things etc what I do know is that GW hobby as we know it, is just a parcel of the hobby as hole... both in past and in the present...

Of course GW didn't create wargaming. What they did was make it accessable, internationally available with real support and logistics to back it up. They encouraged miniature painting and converting by producing magazines, books and international contests. They created a fictional universe to encourage artisits and gamers' imaginations. Before GW you had to work pretty hard to even discover the existence of wargaming. Shipbuilding and chess may have been around for centuries, but GW made the wargaming hobby mainstream.

Mastiff wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not saying anything against GW -- they've done a lot for wargaming -- it just annoys me to hear people seem to say that GW invented or reinvented the TTWG hobby. What happened is they rode the crest of a wave of change that was already moving.

This statement fascinates me. They rode the crest of change? Horsepucky. 25 years ago they weren't any other companies offering organized miniature fantasy wargaming.

Ral Partha was producing nice minis, but no rules. TSR was the major force in driving RPGs, but no minis (except as placeholders and game aids). Later came Battletech and Car Wars, but still not minature wargaming, they were cardboard. There were historical games available, but very obscure poorly supported. Most wargames used chits, not minis, except for home-grown rules for 1:72 plastics.

Warhammer was the first TTMG to start advertising in Dragon magazine, and get a toehold in North America. There really wasn't any TTMG competition until the mid 90s, when GW was releasing 3rd ed. Warhammer and 2nd ed. 40k.

So I'm not sure what crest they rode. I'm pretty confident they were the crest that made VOR and Void and Hordes and Confrontation and Infiniti worth investing in by hobby shops.

Clearly you weren't around in the 1970s and you've never heard of Jack Scruby, Empire Of The Petal Throne, WRG, and many other examples which refute your argument.

Clearly you weren't around in the 1970s and you've never heard of Jack Scruby, Empire Of The Petal Throne, WRG, and many other examples which refute your argument.

Hell, I've never heard of most of those, and I've run a games store for 22 years.)
EotPT was this really cool game I'd see up at Clash of Arms whenever I swung by to see my friend Paul. It never, ever, ever sold in my stores, think it was past it's prime by the time I opened. Jack Scruby i've never heard of, and while WRG sounds familiar, that might just be because those are 3 of my favorite consonants.)

GW, Magic, and D and D, all have something in common. Their success made possible the success of many games that followed. And, they still survive when many of the things that followed them in their respective niches have died off.

GW's not the entire hobby. Silly idea. One trip to historicon or similar gaming convention can abuse you of that notion pretty quick. At the same time, all the gnashing of teeth and cursing them isn't that necessary, and looks just as silly.

Of course GW isn't the entire Hobby, but they do have a legitimate claim to being a Hobby unto themselves, as they sell everything you could possibly need to play their games.

Quite why Lanrak has a bee in his bonnett about this I'm not sure. How can being able to source all your materials in a single place be bad?

Were it not for GW's hordes of customers, the Hobby overall would be a much smaller and niche affair. They blew it wide open, and have held it open. PP, Rackham et al all seem to admit they exist thanks to GW, so surely GW are only a good thing for the wider hobby?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Were it not for GW's hordes of customers, the Hobby overall would be a much smaller and niche affair. They blew it wide open, and have held it open. PP, Rackham et al all seem to admit they exist thanks to GW, so surely GW are only a good thing for the wider hobby?

Agreed. Imo GW's has been the best thing for tabletop wargaming since...well, ever and no one comes close to the impact they've had in this niche hobby. GW also has had a lot of impact in other industries and geek ways of life like video games as seen in the incredibly successful Blizzard Entertainment. It'd be a much less fun world for me if GW wasn't around as sad as that might sound!

However like Microsoft, GW is somewhat of a monopoly and perhaps solely for being the uncontested top dog they're bad guys to many and will always have a target painted on their back.

Mastiff wrote:Of course GW didn't create wargaming. What they did was make it accessable, internationally available with real support and logistics to back it up. They encouraged miniature painting and converting by producing magazines, books and international contests.

Hardly, it was quite common for armies to be fully painted long before GW appeared. In fact among many historical wargamers, it's simply not the done things not to paint, if anything GW has encouraged the acceptability of not painting your armies. And international painting contests have also existed before GW and entirely independently of them. Lets not get ahead of ourselves, GW aren't breaking new ground with the concept of painting your stuff.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Clearly you weren't around in the 1970s and you've never heard of Jack Scruby, Empire Of The Petal Throne, WRG, and many other examples which refute your argument.

Jack Scruby gave miniature wargaming a boost based on historicals, but Chainmail didn't really get too far. EofPT was an RPG that died out because it was impossible to relate to (great artwork though). WRG is also historical. The reason no one's heard of those examples is because they were already obscure when Warhammer was first published.

Yes, they deserve credit. No, they don't diminish GW's success in pushing the TTMG hobby into the mainstream.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Of course GW didn't create wargaming. What they did was make it accessable, internationally available with real support and logistics to back it up. They encouraged miniature painting and converting by producing magazines, books and international contests.

Hardly, it was quite common for armies to be fully painted long before GW appeared. In fact among many historical wargamers, it's simply not the done things not to paint, if anything GW has encouraged the acceptability of not painting your armies. And international painting contests have also existed before GW and entirely independently of them. Lets not get ahead of ourselves, GW aren't breaking new ground with the concept of painting your stuff.

Yes, historical wargaming existed before GW. Yes, painting contests existed before. And the hobby was devoted to historically-accurate detailing and strategic recreations. I think Warhammer's quite a different animal in that it allowed and encouraged more personal creativity, and got a new generation of hobbyists involved that wasn't inspired by history books and museums, but rather Tolkein and Gygax. Personally I'm inspired by both groups, and am completely jealous of most historical modellers, but again, I think they are separate markets with some overlap.

I want a 15mm GW product.

Going sideways a bit...

The thing I remember about going into Clash of Arms warehouse was huge shelves full of Empire of the Petal Throne games. Bright, lovely colors. Cool boxes. You literally ached to take them home and start up a group. If I hadn't already done that with a dozen other games at that time, and never played them, I would probably have a set on my shelf right now, mostly in yellowing shrinkwrap. CoA was located in the same warehouse at the time that my game distributor was there. I'd pick up an order, and once in a while walk in with a friend. Probably 20 years ago.

Back on topic -
I think it's quite obvious that many people have pointed out positives about GW. So the answer to the OP's question is: "No, GW isn't just negatives". Equally obvious should be the related answer of "No, TTMG is not all positives". Easily proven on day 3 of any wargaming convention, when you realize a few too many of the guys are thinking of showers as something optional.

GW Hobby doesn't mean they are implying they are the ONLY TTMG out there. They are using the term in sort of a fethed up first person.

I honestly don't see how anyone can read "GW Hobby" and assume GW means they are the only hobby/gaming source in the world. Either people read too much into stuff or need to go back to school and learn reading comprehension.

Let’s just say there are two opposing views of the history of wargaming.

In the first one, GW explodes on the scene in the early 80s and singlehandedly creates the modern hobby.

In the second one, wargaming develops over a period of 150 years from basic toy soldiers, through Kriegspiel, Little Wars etc. the explosion of historicals in the 50s, and the introduction of SF and Fantasy in the 70s. RPGs start to bring skirmish level gaming to a new audience. By the early 80s, the scene is set, many systems and ranges of figures are available in historical periods and some in SF/F. GW, impelled by its history as an RPG and figures publisher, seizes the day and launches WHFB, followed by 40K.

Which view people adopt tends to depend on whether they are relatively young and were brought into wargaming through GW games, or whether they were brought into wargaming by other games.

Although GW has a lot to offer, there is lots more available by looking outside its fairly narrow focus.