Some information has come to my attention which I have been debating what to do with.


While I won’t disclose names of sources, this information comes from Rackham Sentinels and their conversations with Jean Bey and Paolo Parente from GenCon this year. Considering the nature of the sources I find the information credible, mostly because I cannot fathom why they would want to make stuff like this up and then give it to ME of all people. The best explanation I can come up with other than it being the truth is that it is some kind of insane strategy to get me to talk up sales for the game somehow. That doesn’t seem likely.

The reason the Sentinels have not distributed the information is because they fear repercussion upon the probable sources in the eyes of Rackham Entertainment…which would most certainly seem like a reasonable fear if the information got thrown up on the official RE AT-43 forums…but I’m not so sure that anyone in officialdom from RE other than perhaps Martin Terrier is paying any attention to Dakka Dakka, and I don’t think it would be in Martin’s interests to go tattling off to his bosses that this discussion is being had out in the open on the intrawebs…

In any case, I won't be distributing this to any other websites, for instance Warseer. The information will be here on the forum I helped get changed to AT-43 due to my spurring everyone into action posting...and I hope to spur you all to action again, albiet in the real world this time and not here in virtua-land.


I had been looking very closely at the upcoming Oni faction since I got my first look at the Army Box contents. I scored a copy of the Oni Army Book from one of my Sentinel connections and have been enjoying reading it this past weekend. I got to figuring out how much money I would have to be spending, even at discounted internet prices, to run full Oni armies and it would run into the hundreds of dollars, most likely.

Then I got the news I received late last week, and my impetus to ever purchase anything AT-43 related again took a big blow. What occurs to me is that I would not be the only person who would feel the same way, and so I almost feel like disclosing this information is in the best interests of the consumer – and while I also understand why the Sentinels don’t want to disclose any of this it really kills me to see people discussing the future of AT-43 and seeing the Sentinels watch quietly without giving people any inkling as to what’s going on.

I also think the Sentinels may be miscalculating, for if this information is true it means that AT-43 fans need to put their efforts to spread the game and increase sales in high gear because it matters more than ever.

So – here’s what I have to share with everyone. Again, this information comes from Rackham Sentinels reporting conversations with Jean Bey and Paolo Parente at GenCon this year, and this posting was written with the editing assistance of Rackham Sentinels in the interest of making it as tone-neutral as possible. I guess I can be the mouthpiece they cannot for fear of losing thier positions.

I can only report what I have been told from multiple sources which confirm each others' accounts - I cannot say that any of this is the truth for certain. I say that mostly for my own protection - but I will add that I wouldn't post this if it didn't sound credible to me, again considering where it is coming from.


Apparently when the venture capitalists who purchased Rackham and saved them from potential bankruptcy did so, they didn’t understand what, precisely, Rackham did as a company. They thought it was a toy company (which is ironic considering some of the conversations I’ve had with people about how to classify AT-43 minis), and now they don’t want to own a game company.

The plan is to release everything AT-43 which is already finished, which is to say everything that was developed prior to the buyout specifically the remaining Cogs units, Oni, and the Krygs, but then that’s it – and they will then change Rackham Entertainment over to an actual toy company.

This is why plans for an 8th race in AT-43 were canceled (as no sculpting had taken place yet) and why the Rackham Legends line was canceled and why any plans for unpainted mini lines have been dropped.

Jean Bey is apparently the only reason why Rackham Entertainment is continuing to do anything it’s doing, and he’s been locked out of most business decisions. It’s already known that Paolo Parente left the company, and apparently if AT-43 wasn’t so big in the United States the game might have been canceled already.



Okay, I can see why most of the Sentinels would want to suppress this information. On the surface, it doesn’t sound good; but I think suppressing this is not seeing the forest for the trees. There’s good with the bad, namely:

AT-43 is generating a profit in the United States. It’s just not enough to sway the corporate owners of Rackham Entertainment yet.

This is all about money, of course. If AT-43 sells, the game won’t die. Rackham Entertainment will keep supporting it – or someone may pony up the money to purchase the rights to AT-43 from them and keep the game going themselves.

It’s really important that all you AT-43 fans, if you had any inclinations to do demos, to try and organize tournaments, or do anything else which may lead to increased sales for AT-43, that you do so now. In my experience businesspeople are often stubborn, pig-headed, and once they form an opinion on something they can only be swayed through dollar signs.

If they’ve decided that they’re not going to support AT-43 past what’s already been produced, meaning no 2nd Edition rulebook, no new campaigns like Frostbite, no new ANYTHING past what already exists, and ostensibly very limited restocking, the only thing that’s going to change their minds is if they see profit margins on AT-43 standing out from those financial reports.

IMHO, the AT-43 community needs to step up tournaments at FLGS. Get those Army Boxes up on shelves. That’s something that the RE corporate masters should notice. Get the product stocked in stores. I’ve only seen them once in my FLGS, and they didn’t get shown off to anyone, they were just used over in the corner and no one paid much attention to them.

The status quo is not enough to convince Rackham Entertainment that they should continue supporting AT-43. Forewarned, you are now armed with the knowledge that your efforts to promote AT-43 and increase sales really DO matter in the grand scheme of things, not just within your local neighborhoods and groups of game players.

Do not be satisfied that things are fine just as they are and that AT-43 is doing well as it stands. If you want to have a living game past 2010 in terms of continuing to see new units, new rules supplements, and company support, the game needs to grow more than it has been doing so up until this point.

To wit, what I wrote earlier this year in terms of the fate of AT-43 depending on the Army Boxes seems to be more true than even I had thought. Luckily, it looks like the Oni Army Box may be something that AT-43 fans can promote well. It's a tool you are being given to help sell the game. While being a salesperson was never my bag of tricks, and the other big reason why I left the Sentinel program, if you think it might be yours now would be a good time to find out.

Cairnius wrote:
Apparently when the venture capitalists who purchased Rackham and saved them from potential bankruptcy did so, they didn’t understand what, precisely, Rackham did as a company. They thought it was a toy company (which is ironic considering some of the conversations I’ve had with people about how to classify AT-43 minis), and now they don’t want to own a game company.

I forsaw this, but not in this way. It beggers belief that financial backers would buy up a company and not know what it does. It more likely in fact that they knew what Rackham did, but want to do something else anyway. If this is the case AT-43 is likely doomed, with Confrontation leading the way off the cliff.

Cairnius wrote:
The plan is to release everything AT-43 which is already finished, which is to say everything that was developed prior to the buyout specifically the remaining Cogs units, Oni, and the Krygs, but then that’s it – and they will then change Rackham Entertainment over to an actual toy company.

This logically means a cancellation of race 8.

Cairnius wrote:
This is why plans for an 8th race in AT-43 were canceled (as no sculpting had taken place yet)

As happening, though with the race not being currently mentioned it makes sense to drop it whole cloth even if AT-43 was saved. Confrontation also needs to lose at least half its factions.

Cairnius wrote:
and why the Rackham Legends line was canceled and why any plans for unpainted mini lines have been dropped.

The mistake. Rackham has lost on Legends sales except for the Grim Golem Overseer fro what I have heard. What does this mean: drop the Confrontation Legends carry on with AT-43 Legends. Well not exactly the best way forward is to double the range of vehicles, yes double, if not more. Simply by selling resin weapons and the force card seperately.

So for example a new Fire Toad variant we will call the Incinerator equipped with two flamers. Adding a new Fire Toad adds a lot to the UNA line, but all you need to sell are two resin flamers with plug in connectors and two cards. I can guarantee the vehicle variant packs would sell. Especially once you get resin alternate weaponry for *** vehicles, I know I would buy, wouldn't you?

Next you can add a number of special characters, about two or three for each line in metal or resin. Again there is no reason they wont sell and make money, yes they are not prepaint, but the base line, if you want to double your vehicle range and special character allocation you need to get painting. I dont think that is a hard pill to swallow the ranges are pretty well covered otherwise, transports excepting.

Cairnius wrote:
Okay, I can see why most of the Sentinels would want to suppress this information. On the surface, it doesn’t sound good; but I think suppressing this is not seeing the forest for the trees. There’s good with the bad, namely:

Remember most Sentinels are dancing to the tune, you know this more than anyone else, with me second.

Cairnius wrote:
While I won’t disclose names of sources, this information comes from Rackham Sentinels and their conversations with Jean Bey and Paolo Parente from GenCon this year. Considering the nature of the sources I find the information credible, mostly because I cannot fathom why they would want to make stuff like this up and then give it to ME of all people.

This is why the info was given to you, assuming its not an enormous tail pull, you are already a heretic Cairnius and thus are a good dissemination route. There is no internal peer pressure to silence you, because you are not on the inside. Allowing for how critics are handled I can see other Sentinels not wanting to make waves, but you have nothing more to lose by talking.
also it has to be some form of Sentinel because Rackham is small enough that as a general rumour its largely worthless. AT-fortywho? Its not Warmachine, Warhammer or Battletech, most nerds wont rage if this one goes down.

Cairnius wrote:
AT-43 is generating a profit in the United States. It’s just not enough to sway the corporate owners of Rackham Entertainment yet.

Rackham is selling in the US because of lower prices which in turn stem from the firesales. The dollar price is the pound or euro price, which is not good, and online discounts of a further 20-40% seal the deal. Rackham has priced the game out of the European market, because they are still thinking of 2000AP armies costing a gamers budget. Sorry that wont compete with the big boys. When you see an overpackaged open front box on the shelf in the UK you see how little you are getting for your lot of money.

UK price for an infantry boxset usually 18.00GBP, and this is from Maelstrom which has a good low pricing as H.B.M.C. will attest. This calculates as 29.55USD by todays exchange rates.

US price for an infantry boxset usually 18.99USD to 23.99USD, from Warstore, 22.50USD from Miniatures Market, ignoring firesale items.

Rackham prices are evn more assinine, 30.00EUR for a standard infantry boxset, equivalent to 44.15USD either directly or converted twice via GBP rates. Thats a stupid stupid price, European members on the Rackham forums often talk about how they are getting their stuff from the USA. UK traders I have met have reacted to news that potential customers are buying from the US with chagrin. Talk about getting your Warmachine items from the US, not a problem, talk about getting At-43 and its all talk of customs charges, missing international post et al. To them the lost sales on the range is a BIG issue, I suspect they feel market starved.

Cairnius wrote:
This is all about money, of course. If AT-43 sells, the game won’t die. Rackham Entertainment will keep supporting it – or someone may pony up the money to purchase the rights to AT-43 from them and keep the game going themselves.

In other words Mongoose? It might happen.

Cairnius wrote:
It’s really important that all you AT-43 fans, if you had any inclinations to do demos, to try and organize tournaments, or do anything else which may lead to increased sales for AT-43, that you do so now. In my experience businesspeople are often stubborn, pig-headed, and once they form an opinion on something they can only be swayed through dollar signs.

From my perspective this is where AT-44 comes in, if they wont fix the system fix it without them.

Cairnius wrote:
If they’ve decided that they’re not going to support AT-43 past what’s already been produced, meaning no 2nd Edition rulebook, no new campaigns like Frostbite, no new ANYTHING past what already exists, and ostensibly very limited restocking, the only thing that’s going to change their minds is if they see profit margins on AT-43 standing out from those financial reports.

That makes my job easier.

Cairnius wrote:
IMHO, the AT-43 community needs to step up tournaments at FLGS. Get those Army Boxes up on shelves.

Nope, Rackham is sticking the finger to its resellers like Rackham of old did. the ONUI Toad Pandemonium has been canceled, have Rackham bothered to tell retailers so they can remove the pre-order listings and not piss off the customers, no they havent. You can still pre-order the non-existent vehicle. People will be angry, because they will lose money on the pre-orders if there was a dollar translation, and if not they will be disappointed. Retailers will also be angry.

While on this note you could have an ONI Toad Pandemonium easily enough, you cast the resin guns, print the cards and get people to convert their own. Then you wont look at this as a short changed codex option, but look at it as a freebee extension.

Cairnius wrote:
The status quo is not enough to convince Rackham Entertainment that they should continue supporting AT-43. Forewarned, you are now armed with the knowledge that your efforts to promote AT-43 and increase sales really DO matter in the grand scheme of things, not just within your local neighborhoods and groups of game players.

As we have seen the stagnant mindset infects the Sentinels and company alike, it could be avoided with a little bit of attention. But thats the original unresolved problem, lets focus on the new one for this thread.

Cairnius wrote:
Do not be satisfied that things are fine just as they are and that AT-43 is doing well as it stands. If you want to have a living game past 2010 in terms of continuing to see new units, new rules supplements, and company support, the game needs to grow more than it has been doing so up until this point.

Do our own if they don't, make the game for 5000AP armies, add the new units for us to scratchbuild if Rackham Legends wont carry the concept. We can succeed with this on our own as gamers, its how 40K firast did vehicles after all, and many others besdies. Its whether it will be left to us to that is the issue.

Cairnius wrote:
To wit, what I wrote earlier this year in terms of the fate of AT-43 depending on the Army Boxes seems to be more true than even I had thought. Luckily, it looks like the Oni Army Box may be something that AT-43 fans can promote well. It's a tool you are being given to help sell the game. While being a salesperson was never my bag of tricks, and the other big reason why I left the Sentinel program, if you think it might be yours now would be a good time to find out.

I concur, and have been watching this initiative, but Army boxes are flash sales, unit boxes and a decent sized range are for the retention. Prepaint is great, but you do not get the full game immersion without the game making side of the hobby. Painting an army is a pain, but painting a single special character or the new gun variant is more fun and still totally avoidable if the core PPP range is big enough for each list, which it is for the first four armies at least.
This again is where Legends can help by adding a slow flow of add ons to every list.



Now some thoughts on the integrity of the information. While not fully indicative I can see patterns which support Cairnius' information.

First we have the logo change.



The old dragon logo was a games company logo, the new logo is a toy company logo. Anyone else notice this?

Second the cancellation of the ONI Toad Pandemonium, this was described in the early fluff for ONI so it was something they were clearly core to the army theme. Purchased or looted UNA vehicle hardware with IIRC zombie and hallucogenic armament rather than direct fire weaponry. Clearly a twisted fire Toad for a twisted megacorporation. Gone.

Third the poverty of the ranges for Confrontation other than Wolfen Dirz and Temple. Not much new for lions is coming out yet Ram is well on the way to release with half the items shown. from what I can gather the armies subsequent to the first three appear to be no more than 70% of the size of the original range. Collapsing the range by cancelling some armies makes sense, Confrontation is overstretched, but each army made should have a decent range of minitures. I don't see Rackham coming up with the goods on army range here.

Fourth, no sign of moves on the AT-43 transports. Though I am not one for definitive answers on that, pin someone else, Blokhead possibly.

Thanks for the info. I'm not really sure how anything I do will change a bean counter's mind. Whether I buy 5K's worth of AT-43 armies or own 5K's worth of GW xenos armies I'm still not having any influence over what does or does not get produced.

I just started re-reading Atlas Shrugged. How oddly similar.

It takes way more money and resources to change Rackham from a gaming to a toy company. No business sense executive will do that. Peope who read this discussion should simply move on to other areas of their interest. I hope that the thread stops here.

Orlanth, I found out more about the Pandemonium.

The problem is actually on Alliance's side, not RE's. The code being used is for the Light Enforcer(iirc), but Alliance didn't change the name on their lists from the Pandemonium(the code's original product) to the Light Enforcer(the code's ACTUAL product) name. European Distributors have the correct name on the code.

wildger wrote:It takes way more money and resources to change Rackham from a gaming to a toy company. No business sense executive will do that. Peope who read this discussion should simply move on to other areas of their interest. I hope that the thread stops here.

Interesting opinion, if you have anything to back it up. Show us your reasoning please, blank dismissals are worthless, especially if they call for a thread end. You cant have the last word if you have nothing to say, yes?




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Platuan4th wrote:Orlanth, I found out more about the Pandemonium.

The problem is actually on Alliance's side, not RE's. The code being used is for the Light Enforcer(iirc), but Alliance didn't change the name on their lists from the Pandemonium(the code's original product) to the Light Enforcer(the code's ACTUAL product) name. European Distributors have the correct name on the code.

Thanks for that news. At least it confirms that the Pandemonium has been canceled, if anyone in the Sentinel cadre can get hold of the concept rules and points values we can convert our own from Damocles Fire Toads and bitz.

In any event if a distributor messes up its likely because they haven't been informed properly, if I can find something is wrong with the ordering as a potential customer who has made no pre-orders, how much sooner should Rackham have noticed and sent out word. Besides some of the pre-order sites I linked to in the other thread were European based sellers, so not everyone over here has got the message yet either.

Well, between this and the price-raise clusterfeth that is Games Workshop, it seems that some desperate actions are going to be required to save the future of miniature gaming. I know that my FLGS discounted all of their stuff for the Starship Troopers game 50% off and it didn't sell.

wildger wrote:It takes way more money and resources to change Rackham from a gaming to a toy company.

It doesn't, actually. The main thing is the ownership of production facilities, which Rackham Entertainment already has. Someone said they bought a factory for themselves. If that's not true, they certainly have deals with factories and have all the infrastructure laid to produce toys.

There's very little difference between AT-43 miniatures and Star Wars toys produced by Hasbro. All Rackham Entertainment needs to do is to develop new products, advertise them, and sell them. They already make toys. They're just toys connected to a game.

It would actually be amazingly easy to make this switch.

Cairnius wrote: The main thing is the ownership of production facilities, which Rackham Entertainment already has. Someone said they bought a factory for themselves. If that's not true, they certainly have deals with factories and have all the infrastructure laid to produce toys.

I don't think they own their own factories considering there was a group of Chinese businessmen with us at GenCon that were introduced to us as "the factory owners". Of course, they could also be partner owners with Rackham, I don't know how Chinese law works regarding such things.

Interesting and, if true, a bit unfortunate.

As long as I get an ONI army, I won't be too disappointed though.

Platuan4th wrote:I don't think they own their own factories considering there was a group of Chinese businessmen with us at GenCon that were introduced to us as "the factory owners". Of course, they could also be partner owners with Rackham, I don't know how Chinese law works regarding such things.

Well, it did seem odd to me that a Sentinel once told me that Rackham "owned" a factory. It's really neither here nor there, though. The point stands that switching over to a toy company really isn't a big deal to get done.

I thought about an Oni army too, Strahd, but I just can't justify spending $400 on an army for game that's slated to die as of right now. If the AT-43 community can turn things around and I see it getting played around here I would change my mind.

The truth is, I'm kind of bummed out about this news. I'm really tired of painting miniatures. I just want to play games. AT-43 had a shot at success, but the business side of things was so mis-managed that the game, and the company, killed itself.

I've heard tale that Jean Bey used to send entire shipments of minis back to the factories because he wasn't pleased with the quality, and that this had a whole lot to do with the stock shortages people had to deal with, for example.

Replies to bilesuck are not necessary. I'm just leaving this as a pleasing reminder that people do in fact get banned.

Bilesuck is just an angry ex-Confrontation player who got screwed by Rackham when they cancelled the metal minis and transformed the game into a PPP system that mirrors AT-43. Yet he spends an inordinate amount of time helping Rackham out by doing free work for AT-43.

They won't ban him from the official AT-43 forums because they need all the help they can get over there. My Sentinel contacts tell me that a bunch of Sentinels have quit over Rackham Entertainment's new direction and the shoddy communication they get with the company. I guess they can't afford to lose Bilesuck even if he's been so rude over there so as to run new posters to their boards off.

P.R. isn't Rackham's strongest suit.

A moderator said:

Okay, let's remember that we don't comment on ex-users who are not here to defend themselves.

Also let's not malign Rackham or other companies by hearsay and rumour.

Please keep comments polite and objective.


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Taking off moderator hat...

If Rackham were to close doors it would be a pity. On the plus side, there would be a fire sale of all AT43 stuff for people who are interested, but you would need to grab everything you could as quickly as possible.

I've never believed that a game dies because the company that published it has gone. The AT43 boxed sets seem like nearly a complete game in a box like Space Hulk.

Cairnius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:I don't think they own their own factories considering there was a group of Chinese businessmen with us at GenCon that were introduced to us as "the factory owners". Of course, they could also be partner owners with Rackham, I don't know how Chinese law works regarding such things.

Well, it did seem odd to me that a Sentinel once told me that Rackham "owned" a factory.

No, Rackham-Entertainment has a Chinese manufacturer for their plastic products. Rackham used to own a foundry, but that was sold when Rackham was purchased and turned into Rackham-Entertainment (heralding the death of the metal miniatures).

I've heard tale that Jean Bey used to send entire shipments of minis back to the factories because he wasn't pleased with the quality, and that this had a whole lot to do with the stock shortages people had to deal with, for example.

It is a tale, hearsay, and conjecture.

As to your OP, most of that is WAY off base. I was at GenCon, I was there during the "conversations", and I will admit some of what you wrote has merit, but putting makeup on a pig still leaves you with a pig when all is said and done.

The tale of Jean Bey sending back minis came from a FLGS owner. I called it a "tale" on purpose because I don't know if it's true or not...but it's one explanation for product shortages so seemed worth considering...


If you can correct the record, Blokhead, please do! Let us know what, in your opinion, is true. I'd prefer the truth be out there rather than anything off base.

Like I said, all I know is what Sentinels told me, and they being the hardest of the hardcore fans of AT-43 I couldn't see why they'd lie to me. They also specifically talked about getting all this from Jean Bey one night at GenCon after the exhibitions had ended and Paolo left...if they hadn't told me it came straight from JB, I wouldn't have paid much heed to it. This didn't strike me as "rumor" but "reporting."


We had the "live or dead" conversation in another thread, Kill...basically I proffered the idea that it had nothing to do with how many people played a game but whether or not the game was in active production from a company and still seeing new units, new rules supplements, and restocking on store shelves.

I suppose I'm going off the idea that a "living" thing is something which is still growing. Once a company stops producing product, the game isn't growing anymore, hence "dead" from my perspective.

I just hope that this isn't Rackham Entertainment's way of scaring people into stripping the shelves of their products to boost sales.

I'll be honest with you - part of why I posted this, I think, was so that someone could tell me none of it was true. I am STILL thinking about Oni, even after being told all of this. I bought a bunch of stuff during the firesale, had full UNA, Red Blok, and Therian armies 7,500 AP+. I had to get rid of two of them but kept UNA, and I wouldn't mind having another army so that I could teach people the game with two armies.

Hell, I still think about purchasing all the Army Books because I really, really like the AT-43 fluff. I could see owning one Army Box from each army just so I had like a historical record of the game if and when it goes away.

If it can be proven that AT-43 is going to be alive, well, and growing for the next 5 years, I'd want to know. Then I could purchase Oni with confidence...but I can't see dropping $150 on everything coming out in November and then like $250 more on all the other units when they come out if the game isn't going to be around past 2010. :(

Cairnius wrote:Bilesuck is just an angry ex-Confrontation player who got screwed by Rackham when they cancelled the metal minis and transformed the game into a PPP system that mirrors AT-43.

They won't ban him from the official AT-43 forums because they need all the help they can get over there.

Hey, that sounds a bit like me!

Though I did get banned from the official Confrontation forums for my critical view of their switch over.

They eventually let me back in, but all that was left were tumbleweeds and a cavernous echo anytime someone (very) occasionally had anything to say...

warpcrafter wrote:I just hope that this isn't Rackham Entertainment's way of scaring people into stripping the shelves of their products to boost sales.

It wouldn't surprise me...

I had heard as much as Cairnus, though the timeline I heard was much sooner. This got me very bummed out. I would not want to continue investing time and money into a game that could potentially be canceled next year. Hopefully this is not true. I want AT-3 to be around for a long time because I really do enjoy it. (With a few OP/UP unit aggravations)

Actually over at the AT-43 Forums one of the RE spokesman responded to all of this. unfortunately it is all in the sentinels only section so I am not sure if I can post it here. It seemed to indicate that RE was going to continue on with AT-43 and is still making and designing new units and armies for it...

For me, AT-43 is an awesome, awesome game. I love not having to paint the figures and the ppp jobs are pretty decent all around (wolfen army box being the sad exception) for tabletop wargaming standards. Something about having a fully painted army is great. Also them being plastic makes them much lighter to carry around and you can store them in a box since they are more durable than fancy painted metal. I have my whole armies in plastic ziplock bags grouped by squads, and stored in a big cardboard box. No foam needed, and no need to remember the exact spots that the minis go into the foam either. If something falls off a dab of superglue fixes it right up.

Also, AT-43 is a hobby for me. This means that I want to continue buying NEW units and learning NEW strategies. Sure, I could continue to play a game that is no longer supported (ie: dead) and I could even make up my own new units for it to keep it "alive". However, this feels more like holding onto something that is long gone just because I remember how cool it used to be. I don't want to play "old" games that don't have new things to buy and learn. It's a hobby for me and that means I get new things from the company that made the game, and I get to look forward to those things each month (or every few months). While I can make my own excitement, I'd rather get it from the company making my favorite game.

I understand the idea of a game being dead.

The alternative perspective is that if the models are good, the rules are good, and you have two good sized armies, you don't need constant changes and new releases to continue to play and enjoy the game.

From my viewpoint, Classic Battletech was spoiled by the continual releasing of more and more mechs and rules. It's something that annoys me about 40K too.

Some of the AT43 stuff will work with other models. For example, you could use the Cogs or Therians as smaller size enemy models against a platoon of Halo Clix figures, which are cheap but oversized compared to regular 28mm figures.

I'm not saying I wish Rackham would die, just that if they did go under, your armies are still completely useable.

Kilkrazy makes a good point.

I'd like to see ONI and Cogs fully released.

I completely agree with KillKrazy.

Being slightly facetious, but when a company stops production, the miniatures and rules you own do not spontaneously melt into unusable slag. I will still be playing the game for quite a while yet, irrespective of whether Rackham are still producing it or not.

I’m not saying anything as Willy Wonka-esque as “A game is only as dead as your imagination,” but the physical models can still be used for whatever suitable gaming purposes one wants. Orlanth suggested using them as Imperial Guard before, and I have used Grim Golems with my old 1st Edition Space Hulk before. They fit the squares exactly and in my mind heavily armed and armoured human troopers versus killer robots works rather nicely. Grim Golems are perfect “counts as genestealers.”

One way or another I would not lay down my euros for anything that I had the slightest doubt about being able to find a use for, and so ONI are still on my “to buy list,” for AT-43 and other things.

Pre-painted zom-bombs and the soon-to-be-printed version of Incursion anyone?

Strahd wrote: Orlanth suggested using them as Imperial Guard before, and I have used Grim Golems with my old 1st Edition Space Hulk before. They fit the squares exactly and in my mind heavily armed and armoured human troopers versus killer robots works rather nicely. Grim Golems are perfect “counts as genestealers.”

Or Legions of Steel!



I came into AT-43 knowing at any point it could fail. Hell, I thought it was failing when I bought into it during the first fire sale.

I am used to playing games that go unsupported, support is based in another country, or die off. Legions of Steel, Space Hulk, Charlie Company, B5 Wars, Heavy Gear, and many more.

I do not sit around and cry or post continuously like a vulture waiting for any of them to die off. Nor do I make predictions on how long the company will last. I buy what I need and play.

My advice for anyone getting into ANY game is make sure you have people around you who are interested in playing or have a couple armies so you can give someone an army to play. Otherwise, you are just wasting your money.

Anyway, I have my game crew, I have a couple armies, and there is a game store within an hour drive that has AT-43 game days. I am happy and not worried.

Killcrazy has it right.

Alpha Forge's Star Mogul is dead.... literally, the designer sold the business and then had an injury so no more models, the company that now has the rights doesn't produce anything.... Great system and you can proxy...... Proxy, Proxy. Sure no tourney's etc.. but it's not being supported anyway so no tourney's.

I'll be buying up everything I can for AT-43. The game rocks and even if the paint job sucks, I can always repaint.

I didn't come into AT-43 knowing it could fail. If I thought it was a company on the outs I never would have bought in. I thought AT-43 was an established player in the industry...I listened to the fans too much. Fool me once, shame on you...which is why I ask a LOT of questions now about this game, especially if I'm having ANY interest in getting any more of it like I am with Oni.

It would be nice if I could find some other use for AT-43 minis, but no dice. The only 40K army I could see proxying UNA for would be IG, but I'm not very into the Guard, and I couldn't use them in tourneys so I'd rather spend my 40K time mastering armies I can actually use in the friendly and very active local tournament circle, if I feel inclined to play 40K at all (which I do less and less).

It was suggested I could use UNA minis for Necromunda somehow, but I've never had much interest in that game...

I suppose I could repaint them as I'm an excellent painter, but I have a huge backlog of 40K stuff to paint, and a FoW army to finish transfers and flocking on, so my modeling/painting time needs to go elsewhere.


I care about how long the company will last because there's always the time factor. The longer a company is around, the more legit they can seem to other gamers who are usually, and understandably, reticent to try new games due to the cost involved. Even with $61 shipped Army Boxes now if the perception is out there that a game is on the way out many gamers, whose priority is ease of finding games, will not buy in. I'd say the majority of my gaming friends are married such that we get one night a week to game, so if the game isn't played at our club, we're not playing it.

If Rackham was going to be around for a while I could see getting an Oni army and then idly teaching a few friends of mine to play AT-43 using the pair of armies, and then perhaps someone, finally, at my club would bite and we'd get a small nucleus of weekly gamers working AT-43 into the rotation. That would be awesome...but once bitten, twice shy.

So, it's worth it to me to be a vulture and pass on news about RE's future to see if anyone has any information to prove what the Sentinels told me is wrong...and so far, nothing concrete has been said. Someone needs to break the veil of silence around Rackham Entertainment that's been plaguing them since they were old Rackham. They need to start talking.

OK all you Negative Nancy's & Doubting Donna's Im going out on a limb here I really hope I dont get into much trouble for posting this .
It seems they do read this forum if your wondering....

Well, for those of you who were at GenCon, care to share what you do know? names deleted? (you seem to be a happy poster at DakkaDakka)? Perhaps even Martin?


Sure thing.

First, let me tell you I can only concur with what Cairnius says over there. Excellent advice. All of you who joined the Sentinel program did so because you were eager to support the game (or else something's wrong, but I don't see any of you joining for another reason) and the way to do so is to be as active as possible on a local level. I don't think either Cairnius or myself are really teaching you anything new there though

As for the rest of his little (well, in a manner of speaking I guess) speech, I have to disagree though...
AT-43 profitability has waned in the last two years because of numerous problems we all know of, the first of which was a near-stop to news releases. There was still a great potential to the game though and the company that bought Rackham from Jean did so because they believed in this potential he was telling them about. Had it not been the case, the cost-effective thing to do would have been to let Rackham just die and then hire the creative staff to work on other projects.

Want proof of this? I think army boxes are a pretty good one. They're an attempt to solve the big problem the game faced, that limited its number of players: complicated entry into the game (both the amount of money and boxes you need to start an army). Changing all production plans to releases these boxes rather than unit and hero boxes sure wasn't simple nor free, but it was worth it because it allows the player base to grow. And it's working: the boxes have already sold far more than the smaller boxes we were releasing in previous months. We're just waiting to see to what extent they will work. Would the company have done the extra efforts if it just wanted to sweep the game under the rug?
As a side note, the "the 8th race got cancelled because nothing was sculpted so far" doesn't hold anything. Know why? Because nothing's sculpted for Krygs either - they're just getting into actual designing phase. Paolo's supposed to start working on them tomorrow, in fact But would we start this 7th race if there was no intention to carry on?
(Besides, if it was all about no additional costs, you would never have seen the Cogs or ONI for that matter. Miniatures may be scuplted all you want, the real moment you start shedding cash is when you order production, which is still happening every month. I think 4 new armies launched into production in the second half of 2009 is no alarming record, on the contrary).

I'm definitely not claiming everything's doing perfect. There are indeed lots of things that need to be improved and some of them are already in the works - I'm thinking of the new website for example, that will have a regularly updated blog for the studio to keep the information flowing about what's going on. You can't imagine how much I want that site to go live... Which hopefully will happen in December.

With all that said - the game is on the upswing right now thanks to new products. It needs your help more than ever. It amuses me to no end that Cairnius "inside information" could be so wrong and his conclusions so right
_________________
Martin TERRIER - Rackham Entertainment community manager

Thank you very much for posting that, Saint. I still have questions, of course.

Why does Martin say that Paolo is supposed to start working on the Krygs when he left Rackham Entertainment already? Is everyone who said Paolo has left the company lying? I've even seen people talking about Paolo having left on the AT-43 forums and no one's corrected them...

As for the rest of what he said...talking about why the venture capitalists bought Rackham Entertainment doesn't speak to their reported desire to turn Rackham E. into a toy company. What they bought the company for in the past has no bearing on what they plan to do with it in the future.

If what Jean Bey said about their looking to turn RE into a toy company is false, I want to hear it from them. The Army Boxes aren't proof that this isn't true, and if what Jean Bey said about being locked out of business decisions is true then what belief they put into the potential of the game based on what HE told them doesn't really matter much anymore. I want to hear that he's still involved in these business decisions.

Martin's also doing a little bit of a straw man dance here...the Sentinels didn't say that the venture capitalists wanted to sweep AT-43 under the rug when they first bought the company. The decision to produce the Army Boxes would have been made like a year or so ago, right? In order to change over the production lines and do all that prep work? Again, that was then and this is now...according to Martin even RE doesn't know if the Army Box initiative is working yet, so that just seems to lend credence to what Jean Bey told the Sentinels.

From my understanding of business, the decision to launch 4 armies into production was made a while ago. What Jean Bey was talking about was the future, and attitudes within the company. Martin seems like he's doing a little bait-and-switch here and speaking to the past, not the present.

Also, if Martin is paying attention - you may want to get your Sentinel house in order. You have Sentinels feeding me information that you claim is false but they swear is stuff they heard from Jean Bey himself at GenCon. You can't both be right...and you obviously want to put the best light on the company that issues your paycheck. Can't blame you for it, but perhaps you can answer some of these other, obvious questions I've mentioned.

Especially about Paolo. I don't see how he's working on the Krygs when he's left the company.

ON EDIT:

Also, Martin - if AT-43 is really generating a profit in the United States, tell us! At least confirm some news I got that I thought was GOOD. I know you probably have to speak for the company's entire market, and may not want to focus on one region over another, but it seems like everyone already knows that AT-43 isn't selling as well in Europe because the American prices are just SO much better.

If Americans have the ability to keep AT-43 going strong by boosting sales here and proving that we're a strong market for the game, let us know!

Would it be to much to ask you to not reply on a first name basis. I know you know who i know and you know who I know that you know....lol

No, it would not. Sorry, you scolded me once on NEAT for not using names so I always want to use yours.

Post edited. Will not happen again.

Thanks
So I cant say youll get more info other than that things have been a bit hush hush, I went out on a limb posting that with the intend to dismay some of the negativeness often found on this site for a lot of fans of At-43 and to some degree gaming, this isnt the most friendly site.... please dont shoot the message guy..lol
Ive been a fan of the site back when Mr R. Wakelin first started it and its a very differant place now. I dont like to post here cause the debates get too "over the top" and takes to much time from things that often dont matter in the grand scheme of things. Im just looking to have fun and play games debates like those found on a lot of forums today that go over the top are not fun for me . When we gather to chat and game, sites like the TGN & Boardgeek are talked about and offer more of what makes me feel good about gaming. Dakka is offten talked about with caution and concern that its hostile at times and for those seeking info to venture lighlty! sad really cause I know the founders didnt want that to happen... I bring this up with a smile and my only intentent is to make folks think and try harder to just be a bit more fun..... go in peace : )

Im planning to do a lot with AT-43 I hope to incourage players and yet to be players /fans to try and stay possitive and play games. And if you have the game try promoting it by simply playing it at your fav store.

I know you went out on a limb, and I am sure I am not the only person who really appreciates it. Rackham has such a rep for not communicating with its consumers...it probably shouldn't be the Sentinels' place to be speaking for the company so much but that's what we're left with. At least you're trying.

Nor did I intend to shoot the messenger...I tried to address my comments to Martin, if he's paying attention. I know he's posted here before.

It seems like I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to explain my actions sometimes because not everyone gets that some people consider critical thought and pursuit of the truth valuable for their own sakes and they don't like upsetting apple carts...not that those are always good things and they're difficult to do with tact due to the nature of what you're doing...but in this case I'm honestly asking because I'm interested in purchasing AT-43 product again and don't want to get burned. At least one other poster in here is in precisely the same position, and I'm sure there are more than two of us.

Yeah, I have gaming friends who avoid DD like the plague. Warseer is just as bad...I think that whenever you get a gaggle of socially maladjusted nerds, grown up or otherwise, gathered in the same place that negativity, over-criticalism, and general disagreeableness are always going to dominate the conversation after a while. This is why I avoided them like the plague when I was in school at all levels. Nerds, I mean.

Geeks aren't as bad, but we're geeks because we have nerdly tendencies...

I also hear you about getting into stuff that doesn't matter much in the scheme of things...I lost someone very dear to me on Oct. 9th very suddenly and no foreknowledge it was coming, and had spent part of what would turn into the final hours I would have with her in the Off-Topic forum here having a stupid argument about nothing that mattered. I haven't been back there since.

some people consider critical thought and pursuit of the truth valuable for their own sakes and they don't like upsetting apple carts...

There is a difference between "critical thought" and over-thinking, thinking for, thinking beyond

There is a difference between "pursuit of truth" and posting incorrect information waiting for someone to disbunk it and then claiming that no one answered so it must be true.

I'm honestly asking because I'm interested in purchasing AT-43 product again and don't want to get burned.

Let's assume the game ended after they released their products currently listed for next year? Would you be burned? Why?

If you are banking your CURRENT enjoyment only on product that has not been released yet and probably will not be released for 2 or more years, do you think that is a good plan?

I have been burned before with other games. I bought many booster cases of Mechwarrior DA only to see them retire entire sets from competitive play (which it mostly was for me). Then when the rules of the game changed half-way through it and ultimately died I had huge boxes of stuff that I could not even sell for peanuts. It ended up being a huge dumpster run and it really hit home for me that I had wasted all that money. So if RE does in fact, stop all wargaming lines in less than 6 months, then it will be a huge waste of money to buy anything further than what I have now.

As it is, only myself and one other guy play anymore and I was going to try and get more guys into it. However, if the game is going to die in less than 6 months I am going to have a HUGE battle trying to get people to buy any of it.

Also, I only really play at-43 and infinity right now (Tho warcanto is looking pretty cool) so there isn't really any re-use of the models for me. If Re dies, I would pick my favorite few models and vehicles and take them to work as desk ornaments, but the rest will be useless to me and probably end up in the trash. I looked on ebay to see if people are buying used at-43 army lots and the answer is no. Again, I would be left with a huge pile of minis that I can do nothing with, and that would be more effort than return to try and sell at a pitiful price. It would be dumpster run time again, which is extremely disheartening.

As for the back and forth between Martin and Jean's opinions on how things are going, I want to believe Martin. It is possible however, that they have access to different levels of information.

As I said, I really want AT-43 to continue on and grow, but I also understand the concept of cutting your losses and moving on. It is a tough decision and only having one guy who is interested to play the game with doesn't help. If it is time to move onto another game, I'd rather know that now and make the switch. I don't have as much time to play several simultaneous games as I used to. We shall see.

I've seen all these mentions about an eighth race, and the Kryg being the seventh race, but now I'm confused. I know about the U.N.A, the Therians, the Red Blok, the Karmans and the Oni, which is five armies, so even with the Kryg being the seventh, that still leaves the sixth. Who are they?

Cogs. Just released. Giant genetically engineered Aliens who are super elite and have ridiculously accurate weapons. (and can summon up free vehicles too) They are pretty awesome!

Let's not discuss definitions of critical thought and pursuit of truth, Haywire. There are no objective standards and I suspect our private definitions are vastly different.


Wolflord gets it perfectly. I mean, perfectly. I agree with every word he said, and he said it much better than I seemed to be able to.

I got burned with Star Wars Pocketmodels. Friend got me into it, I dropped money to get started, turned out the company got bought out a MONTH later and I had to sell it all on FeeBay for a substantial loss. I was...displeased...


I'm not sure whether I'm glad or not that Sentinels contacted me with all of this information. I was really thinking about getting into Oni so that I had a pair of armies for demos and teaching people in case anyone comes around in the future and the Army Boxes convince them to give it a try.

I suppose I could accomplish the same task with 7,500 AP of UNA, but I was looking forward to zombies...but it's already difficult to find games and it's just going to get worse if the game ends in a year.

(I hope you can respect that I'm under time constraints you might not have, Haywire. Driving to the place you and I can both play AT-43 one weekend a month is not an option for me. The wife already expressed "displeasure" considering I head out once a week as it is, and when we have kids soon it's only going to get worse. If I'm going to play AT-43 it has to be in Boston)


Part of what generates the excitement about these games is "new stuff." GW's new Codex and model releases cause as much anguish as joy, but it keeps people talking, keeps them trying new armies. If I dropped $450 on an Oni army and then the game ended a year later and it just turned into an exercise in nostalgia and "what once was," yeah I'd feel burned.

I guess, actually, I'd be more upset than anything. I'd love to be able to find games using a sci-fi system where I didn't have to PAINT anything. I'd like to believe it could still become a long-term presence in gaming...so when I get news like I got, I want someone to disprove it.

So far, it sounds like the information is more on-target than not, because the best I'm getting out of people is acknowledgment that some of it is right but no specificity as to which parts are right and which are wrong (which is evasive and worrisome), and statements about the past but nothing about the future, and both from the most official sources we've heard speak up on the matter. :(

wolflord_ian wrote:Cogs. Just released. Giant genetically engineered Aliens who are super elite and have ridiculously accurate weapons. (and can summon up free vehicles too) They are pretty awesome!

Yep, I forgot about the Cogs. Ugliest dudes in the game, especially the walkers. Thanks, Wolflord. So, any info on what the Krygs look like?

Krygs sculpts haven't been done yet according to the powers that be. We'll see.

No info on them other than what's in Army Book Oni.

AT-43 cannot completely die because there is enough of a range out there and being pre-paint its an easy pick up game. Some games died and came back, Battletech is a good example, to survive you need a good fanbase for the game background, not the rules or minitures, the 'fluff'. So far Rackham got this mostly right, ridiculously outscaled in parts but agreeable and enjoyable nonetheless.

As for whether it is safe to spend money on AT-43, definately. My own armies are growing steadily, I have reached my target 8000AP Therian, UNA and Red Blok and am starting on my Karmans this month. As I mentioned before and was quoted here, if all else fails they are Necrons and guardsmen. They may still be, from time to time, but that would be double duty. I bought AT-43 to stay, hence the number and size of my armies, I am hosting games and providing all the miniatures for the playgroup (excepting the Cogs another of the group has just started). Meanwhile Low walls and crates are great for so many games, being very handy and real looking terrain pieces. My supply of low walls, which is getting quite large now with the Army and Damocles boxsets I have being buying, makes for better Planetstrike fortifications than the GW low walls, they are sturdy, look real and faction generic.

I have already bought some unit boxes purely for conversion, Kolossi to Meganobz come to mind. Others stare out for the potential, but are for armies I dont collect or am already well stocked with. Tiamat would make a far better Necron Lord than any GW miniature I have seen. Cog vehicles are Tau vehicles right down to the colour palette, and we already have a Tau Hammerhead-suit in the Vandal.

Meanwhile games like Secrets of the Third Reich tournaments go as far as to encourage use of Red Blok vehicles, and I have loaned my UNA army to be used for Star Wars miniatures.

The product line is very active, and potentially collectible if worst comes to worst, but when all is said and done my armies are back home and used above all else for games of AT-43, in one fashion or another, and I have no intention to stop either.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cairnius wrote:Krygs sculpts haven't been done yet according to the powers that be. We'll see.

No info on them other than what's in Army Book Oni.

Do we even know what Krygs are yet? We have rival humans, we have high tech aliens, we have robots, we have zombies, I am expecting another anthropomophic terran animal and am thinking along the lines of reptilians. But this is an unsubstantiated guess.

Well I don't think this news puts me off either way, as long as the army boxes are available next spring time I'll be getting into the game for sure.

From the Karman army book, the Kyrgs are another alien race who are lower tech, but very aggressive. (I am thinking they will be like the orks; strong melee and damage on weapons with lots of troops, but poor aim and not many spiffy tricks. Supposedly, the Therians had the Karmans pretty much kill off the entire race. The Karmans still consider this to be one of their biggest sins and there are rumors of Kyrgs still being alive in small pockets here and there.

I don't think it mentions what they look like at all, but there was a fuzzy illustration in one of the book from a long time ago. (if i recall correctly).

I hope you can respect that I'm under time constraints you might not have, Haywire. Driving to the place you and I can both play AT-43 one weekend a month is not an option for me. The wife already expressed "displeasure" considering I head out once a week as it is, and when we have kids soon it's only going to get worse. If I'm going to play AT-43 it has to be in Boston

The point I am trying to make to you Cairnius is that you have been displeased with the rules, the company, the lack of Boston players, and the support since day one.

If you cannot enjoy the game NOW, then do not assume it will magically become enjoyable 6 months down the line.

Basically, I am telling you to stop anquishing and get off the pot (toilet not drugs).

Ah, I understand.

Truth be told Haywire, is that I've actually mellowed quite a bit on AT-43. I acknowledge that it was my choice to buy in so heavy, and that had I done this more gradually I might not have had such a virulent reaction to learning about things like rules inconsistencies, the quality of the rulebooks in terms of syntax and organization, realizing that the quality of the prepaints was vastly different than as advertised, and depending on posters and gaming tiles for all the designed, official missions.

All things that I wish someone like me had been around to tell me about so that I had gone in with eyes wide open. I've said it a zillion times - I've done everything I've done in terms of the reviews, the posting, to be the person I wished had been there for me when I first got started. I know I've opened the eyes of people who STILL bought into AT-43 and spared them the reactions that I had. There's value in what I do.

Something people don't always get...critics aren't critics because they DON'T care. Suffice it to say I saw AT-43 not taking off where I honestly thought, and might still think, that it definitely could. I don't think I'd be so frustrated with Rackham and now Rackham Entertainment if I didn't think that, to a point, they were crapping on their own chances at success.

One of my hopes is that the company will finally understand that, as Franco-centric as they may want to be, that the money to be made is HERE, in the United States, and they'll start handling AT-43 like an American piece of media. When in Rome and all that.

It's difficult for me not to be concerned with missed opportunities, stunted growth, and underperformance when something has SO much potential as AT-43 does, Haywire. I'm a communications man with experience in media. I can see the advertising possibilities so readily for AT-43 that it kills me no one is leaping on them. LOL, give me a modest budget, a team of hungry comic book artists, a month to research and six months to call the shots on an ad campaign and I'll double the AT-43 player base in the United States. *grin*

I could find AT-43 enjoyable right now, Haywire. I just need people to play it with. If I had more faith in the company and people took it more seriously, I could have remained a Sentinel, and a rather productive one...I think my Mission Generator is quite good for what it does and considering it's only an Alpha. I hope people start using it such that I can improve it for everyone. I'd like to make some tokens and other gaming aids to add as Appendix II but I lack the graphic design skills. I should recruit my wife...

Cairnus, your ideas sound much better than what RE have been doing. GW should have stuck with their comics.

There's a lot that people could be doing to promote the game and make it better. There are four Sentinels I can think of who've produced quality P.R. content. It's not distributed off the AT-43 forums, however, which is part of the problem. It wasn't until I came here and to Warseer that you started to see Sentinels come out of their AT-43 forum cocoon. To a point, I did my job - I got them out into the greater internet gaming community. The best they had before this was Tabletop Wargaming News and Zac doesn't tolerate any critical industry talk over there so it's difficult to maintain an energetic conversation that goes beyond fanboyism.

Intrigue! Suspense! Walls of text!

I'm hoping AT-43 keeps on trucking . I don't know what rumors (or facts) or out there to the contrary, but it seems like they're pushing to make it work, and in many ways, it is working! So I'll wait to hear something more official before running for the hills . It seems like they've got a good thing going, and have lots of opportunity to continue if it makes good business sense (always the determining factor, of course!).

FYI, Paolo Parente posted the following on the AT-43 forums...

Hello ,
Paolo here ,
I usually do not make interventions directly on the forum , but I think that this time I need to :
-I AM STILL EMPLOYEE AT RACKHAM ENT.
- AT-43 ? I am currently finalising the design on the Kyegs !! YEAH !
- DUST has been my hobby and dream for a very long time and now is a 1/35 scale range of model kits (too big for gaming...) you can see them at : www.dust-models.com ....And that makes me already happy
I want to thank you for all your kind words
enjoy your game !
P.

Link: http://en-forum.at-43.com/viewtopic.php?t=4142&start=200

Wow, loads of text to read......and at the base of it all, I found one ideal from the OP to be interesting and slightly disappointing.

If the company is, now run by "bean counters"....then it would be a massive mistake by the community to try to BUY the continuation of the game....do we want to create another GW?

Now, please don't get me wrong, I'm all for supporting a good gaming system, and a company that produces said gaming system, but its clear that the company has no love or appreciation for their product, so throwing money at them will not inspire a better product....just its continuation....and eventual stagnation!

I say let the NEW Rackham have a bash at making their "toys", if thats what they think will bring in more money....its always a shame when a system dies, especially for those that have invested in it.

I think we're getting a bit glib here. To be honest this could be a good thing.

Hasbro is a toy company and they have a miniatures game. Heroscape.

I mean let's face it and I'm sure I'll take flack for this but yes AT-43......and yes warhammer are toys. They're simply toys with rules. You can call warhammer a hobby all you want just because you have to paint and assemble them....but the same could be same about old school GI Joe vehicals from hasbro and they were toys...and yes you had to apply decals......kinda like the water ones in warhammer.

These are all toys. And how do you sell toys? That's right...you make a cartoon. If I had my way they'll make it racy and adult to appeal to more "adult" gamers. But realistically thy could just make it detailed kids toys and we could ignour the kiddish cartoon. All they'd have to do is publish rules to keep us happy...and then our kids need to have these models/toys could give us the excuse to get more goodies that we can "borrow" to game with or even have something in commom with our kids...assuming I ever have any....

So to sum up.

Toys good. With luck the quality will go up and not down.

But it really is time for a company to give us pre-assembled pre-painted minis for those who love to game but actually have lives.

At worse. I think in a few years you'll see some one following Rackhams lead. As manufactoring tecnology get's better we'll see companies able to just say screw it.... give them painted minis ready to go.

That's cool that Paolo posted over on the forums...it's always cool when you shake one of the top guys out of the woodwork.

I did notice that Jean Bey's name doesn't appear on the Oni Army Book credits, though...so perhaps the info on him is accurate...I think what I've taken away from all this is that the Sentinels do not have their house in order any more than when I used to be one. Probably no one should have been talking.

AT-43 is def. toys. They're pretty much the Star Wars toys I collect. Warhammer stuff is def. models because they're pretty much the car models I used to make with my Dad when I was a kid. You can say that painted, finished 40K stuff are "toys" but that's really disrespecting the work that a really good modeler puts into it (considering conversions mark the best 40K models) not to mention the skill of a really good painter. Modeling + painting = hobby.

Some people just collect AT-43 toys like some people just collect 40K models...but what was ostensibly distressing about the "news" was that RE would not make games anymore but just toys, not "AT-43" toys, not with rules, but who knows.

In the end time will tell, and what really matters, I guess, is whether people are playing AT-43. That is what is really going to decide whether anyone purchases their stuff or not.

As a person who was an avid AT-43 fanboy, I will say that I nor anyone else locally has played AT-43 in over a year and a half publicly at our FLGS.

That said, I still feel that for all the crap that surrounds Rackham and AT-43, it is still far and away a much more superior game than 40K, by quite a large margin. If it wasnt for the awesome models that 40K has, we would all be playing the more sublime AT-43 as we speak. I am digressing from my point, but it is a good thing to remember that one of the main reasons why AT-43 isn't as popular as it should or could be is due to the models.

Even though I have not played in forever, and paid full price for my two 5K+ AA armies before all this sweet fire sale nonsense, I wouldnt sell them ever. I havent played 40K for nearly the same length of time and would prefer to throw away my lovingly modelled 40K stuff long before thinking of selling my AT-43.

The reason is the quality of the rules. I enjoy the game far more than most other squad based games currently on the market with the exception of WotR.

Locally, I know I am not alone in my sentiments. if the local thought pattern is any indication of the larger sentiments shared by the gaming cells of people who play or own AT-43, then the game isnt dead by a long stretch. Let Rackham do what it wishes. It could drop AT-43 tomorrow and I wouldn't care.

The game should have stopped after the first 3 factions anyways. The only reason why we have space monkeys is because they refused to drop the work already done by parente when AT-43 stood for "Alternate Timeline- 1943" and changed to "After/Trauma-43" when thoe karmens used to be genetically altered gorillas made by the nazis when they discovered lost alien archeotech in Antarctica.

The game stands well enough without being diluted further by even more extraneous factions. Sorry /karmen/cog/kryg/oni lovers. You weren't part of the original plan, and thus, are more difficult to fit in not only with the background but more importantly, into the game mechanics as well.

Further digression: I find it laughable when AT-43 rules are criticized. While you have every right to criticize them as a paying consumer of the product, in direct relation to its sci-fi competitors there is simply no comparison. What are you going to play? 40K? Knock yourself out. Again, the only thing 40K does better is models.

So the game isn't a blockbuster success as was originally anticipated? Big deal, at least there are people playing it on occasion. I see more people playing AT-43 than I do see playing supposedly more popular games such as battletech.

To sum up my rather scattered post, the game isnt for everyone and it shows. Either because of Rackhams mistakes in various ways (many of which are their own fault, others in how they predicted the consumers would react) or because of the current sentiment towards other games. If you are very heavy into, say for instance, GW games or FOW, then your less inclined to start up yet another game, even if all the work has been done already for you.

If Rackham does go full blown toy company that just produces toys with no regard to a centralized and organized way to enjoy them (ala 'rules'), then so be it. It doesnt lessen how good AT-43 actually is by a long shot.

Hellfury: My group played AT-43 most of last year. I think you played with one of them as well, but the release schedule for Cogs really changed my mind on the game.

I agree that the rules are better (at least more fun to play IMO) than the other game, but that isn't enough for me to keep buying. I do have a large, if incomplete, UNA army and I suspect I'll play again in the future, but at this point I don't care what Rackham (or that other company) does at this point. I have enough to enjoy the game with my friends.

As this thread more than adequately demonstrated, I'm not sure anyone knows what's going on at Rackham. Even stuff Jean Bey is telling us gets contradicted, so who knows anymore. Furthermore, who cares anymore.

AT-43 had much more potential than it realized...I think most people who know the game would consider that a reasonable statement. It's always been that potential which I am enamored with, and which has kept me interested all this time.

Now, the idea of AT-43 coming to an end has me actually buying stuff instead of selling what I have...it's an archival interest at this point more than anything. I'm actually asking for AT-43 stuff for Christmas, building a smaller version of my formerly huge AT-43 collection. I've got my 8k of U.N.A. I kept intact from the firesale madness, I've got about 5K of Red Blok coming, 3K of Therians, and 3K of Cogs. I'll be getting Oni when they come out, will probably pick up a Karman army box just to have some in the collection, and we'll see about Krygs.

I've got plenty of friends I can have over just to play AT-43. If I have most of the armies for the game that'll keep things interesting for a long time. I also think of my kids when I think of AT-43. It's a simple minis game with prepaints. Perfect way for my kids to cut their teeth, should they ever want to, on minis games before stepping into the more complex and potentially more mature tabletop games on the market.


It was Oni which got me interested in the game again, so I personally disagree with the idea of calling them "extraneous," and I honestly don't know how much anyone really knows about what "the plan" was. Several people have talked about how Paolo Parente developed this "Alternate Timeline 1943" idea which then transmografied into AT-43 the sci-fi game...I've never seen published interviews with Paolo or anyone at Rackham about this, and while I do see Paolo's DUST game, that's not proof in and of itself.

I'm generally willing to believe that this was the case, but I don't think that necessarily means that the Karmans, Cogs, Oni and Krygs were all "never part of the plan." Cogs and Karmans were always part of the plan based on their mentions in the U.N.A. and Therian Army Books, Krygs have always been part of the mythology. I think Oni is the most "new" of the factions.

Hellfury wrote:As a person who was an avid AT-43 fanboy, I will say that I nor anyone else locally has played AT-43 in over a year and a half publicly at our FLGS.

My FLGS is seriously considering adding an AT-43 game night. They've just expanded their AT-43 section, taking down all of the unsellable Starship Troopers stuff.

That said, I still feel that for all the crap that surrounds Rackham and AT-43, it is still far and away a much more superior game than 40K, by quite a large margin. If it wasnt for the awesome models that 40K has, we would all be playing the more sublime AT-43 as we speak. I am digressing from my point, but it is a good thing to remember that one of the main reasons why AT-43 isn't as popular as it should or could be is due to the models.

Even though I have not played in forever, and paid full price for my two 5K+ AA armies before all this sweet fire sale nonsense, I wouldnt sell them ever. I havent played 40K for nearly the same length of time and would prefer to throw away my lovingly modelled 40K stuff long before thinking of selling my AT-43.

The reason is the quality of the rules. I enjoy the game far more than most other squad based games currently on the market with the exception of WotR.

Locally, I know I am not alone in my sentiments. if the local thought pattern is any indication of the larger sentiments shared by the gaming cells of people who play or own AT-43, then the game isnt dead by a long stretch. Let Rackham do what it wishes. It could drop AT-43 tomorrow and I wouldn't care.

The game should have stopped after the first 3 factions anyways. The only reason why we have space monkeys is because they refused to drop the work already done by parente when AT-43 stood for "Alternate Timeline- 1943" and changed to "After/Trauma-43" when thoe karmens used to be genetically altered gorillas made by the nazis when they discovered lost alien archeotech in Antarctica.

The game stands well enough without being diluted further by even more extraneous factions. Sorry /karmen/cog/kryg/oni lovers. You weren't part of the original plan, and thus, are more difficult to fit in not only with the background but more importantly, into the game mechanics as well.

Really? Why do you think that? It would get sort of stale after awhile with so few army choices. After all, the more different choices there are, the more different people would be attracted to it. But that's just my opinion.

Further digression: I find it laughable when AT-43 rules are criticized. While you have every right to criticize them as a paying consumer of the product, in direct relation to its sci-fi competitors there is simply no comparison. What are you going to play? 40K? Knock yourself out. Again, the only thing 40K does better is models.

So the game isn't a blockbuster success as was originally anticipated? Big deal, at least there are people playing it on occasion. I see more people playing AT-43 than I do see playing supposedly more popular games such as battletech.

To sum up my rather scattered post, the game isnt for everyone and it shows. Either because of Rackhams mistakes in various ways (many of which are their own fault, others in how they predicted the consumers would react) or because of the current sentiment towards other games. If you are very heavy into, say for instance, GW games or FOW, then your less inclined to start up yet another game, even if all the work has been done already for you.

If Rackham does go full blown toy company that just produces toys with no regard to a centralized and organized way to enjoy them (ala 'rules'), then so be it. It doesnt lessen how good AT-43 actually is by a long shot.

If they do stop making AT-43, let's hope they get plenty of product out so that the remaining players are well supported as far as it goes.

Do the new factions break the game that badly?

Not as far as I know...I never see enthusiasts complaining online anyway...then again, we're only talking about Cogs right now. No idea what Oni is going to do. I have a feeling that zombie guns may imbalance things - you know, kill an enemy, replace the mini with an exploding zombie bomb that you need to spend 1 LP to shoot next turn...now imagine seeding zombies through an enemy army.

I think that's going to be an interesting strategy - rather than trying to wipe out whole infantry units with concentrated salvos you take as many zombie guns as you can and just pick one or two people off from every infantry unit to spread zombies all around and get right into the enemy lines a.s.a.p. It could be quite frustrating for opponents, methinks...

All you have to do to beat Cogs is keep knocking them down. It really is a boring game.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:All you have to do to beat Cogs is keep knocking them down. It really is a boring game.

For that matter.... you can do pretty much the same with all infantry except tac arms...therians cannot ground ...easily...and Karmans only have one unit with mortars.... and are as delicate or more as the cogs...

una have only i type of AFV that can ground... REd blok has more chance but Cogs can equal them with pillagers or vandals

and if you plan to ground with flamers... well... if you as cog commander let them get that close you deserve to be smashed

My main opponents are Red Blok (3 players) and it is Manon and Dotch Yoga all the time. The Vandal simply cannot stand up to UNA, Red Blok and Therian *** vehicles because it's only doing half the damage.

I know about UNA as the Cobra variant with the mortar is the only one to take. Otherwise I cannot kill Kollsus suits because I don't have any Fire Toads or troopers with las guns, only rocket launchers.

But this is all off topic.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:My main opponents are Red Blok (3 players) and it is Manon and Dotch Yoga all the time. The Vandal simply cannot stand up to UNA, Red Blok and Therian *** vehicles because it's only doing half the damage.

I know about UNA as the Cobra variant with the mortar is the only one to take. Otherwise I cannot kill Kollsus suits because I don't have any Fire Toads or troopers with las guns, only rocket launchers.

But this is all off topic.

cogs can have enough jammers to blow Odin and Manon + Dotch yaga all the way back to hades, you can also proxy the Pillager (or maybe is the Marauder, do not remember) the type 1 with jammer and CAnnon, a unit of 3 cost the same as 1 vandal...

Remember you have range... keep them at range--- i know I play both RB and Cogs and Therians

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Hellfury: My group played AT-43 most of last year. I think you played with one of them as well, but the release schedule for Cogs really changed my mind on the game.

Its quite possible, either Scott or Nick. I do know that Nick and Jason play semi-frequently at their homes though, similar to Scott.

I haven't played since flying back and forth to Montana to playtest Frostbite rules with a buddy there though. Its been quite awhile.

As for the new factions breaking the game at all, I don't think it does. While increased variety should provide more interesting tactics, etc. on the table, a lot of what I see in them offer little in actual innovative and original usage as an army. In a word, extraneous.

As little interest as I have in every faction beyond the original 3 or 4, I do hope that R decides to completely release everything needed to competently complete all of the planned armies before the game is potentially dropped. R owes their consumers that much at least.

Yeah, it is Scott. You're welcome anytime H.

I have no experience with/against Karmans but Cogs are very different to the Red Block infantry hordes I usually have to play against. Their small numbers really hurt if you can't roll average/above average for a turn or two.

Wolfen: Yeah, I've taken two support squads of Jammers and they just get knocked over along with the Hunters. Vehicles with an engie or that can heal damage tends to overcome the jammers. Like I said, it gets boring really quick.

The indirect fire rules are my only real issue with the game. They are WAY too powerful. Knockdown is essentially a Pinning move without any kind of save allowed. In 40K you make a Morale check. In FoW you get auto-pinned if you are hit with artillery, but it doesn't screw you the way AT-43 screws you when an infantry unit gets knocked down below half.

I don't mind a brutal game, but the knockdown rules are cheap. They make it WAY too easy to remove entire infantry units from the game without actually killing any of them.

Hellfury wrote:

As little interest as I have in every faction beyond the original 3 or 4, I do hope that R decides to completely release everything needed to competently complete all of the planned armies before the game is potentially dropped. R owes their consumers that much at least.

I hope so too, but really, "R" has shown exactly what they think of their fanbase and what they think they owe them...

Which is different from GW how?

Cairnius wrote:Which is different from GW how?

In the way that when Rackham made mistakes and upset the players most of them dropped the company and its games. When GW does that most of the players write an angry topic on the web and then go back to buying more Wood Elves.

Why did you resign as a sentinel again? Because I don't have any real sales pressure; we are just required to behave and act appropriately with the information we are given.

AT-43.CO.UK wrote:

Cairnius wrote:Which is different from GW how?

In the way that when Rackham made mistakes and upset the players most of them dropped the company and its games. When GW does that most of the players write an angry topic on the web and then go back to buying more Wood Elves.

Nahhh SPeshhh Maareeens

Shrapnelsmile wrote:Why did you resign as a sentinel again? Because I don't have any real sales pressure; we are just required to behave and act appropriately with the information we are given.

Err...say what?

Alpharius wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

As little interest as I have in every faction beyond the original 3 or 4, I do hope that R decides to completely release everything needed to competently complete all of the planned armies before the game is potentially dropped. R owes their consumers that much at least.

I hope so too, but really, "R" has shown exactly what they think of their fanbase and what they think they owe them...

Cairnius wrote:Which is different from GW how?

I dont thin either statement is fair from my experience. I have had quite a bit of contact with Jean Bey personally. Something that the Ivory towers at GW are not likely to do, either because of the "pan-fo" factor or because they literally live in an ivory tower of ignorance.
Bey was always amicable and was even generous enough to make the operation damocles book after I constantly pestered him due to their magazine going out of print. He even sent me a bunch of free jink when I expressed interest in certain portions of R's products.

Not to mention their attentive remarks to feedback concerning playtesting operation frostbite rules. Of which gaming companies do not normally allow an open beta for, especially in the case of GW.

As much criticism as Rackham deserves for many things, I do not beleive this is a case where they deserve such vitriol.

In terms of rules mechanics, AT-43 mops the floor with 40k (as does most TTW rules nowadays). 40k will win out on production values and the hobby aspect which I think makes or breaks most "gamers" anyway.

With the exception of the Cog Vandal, Indirect Fire/Grounding isn't dominant like it used to be before certain erratas were established. Copperhead used to be king back in the early days of the game. It's still formidable but not as game breaking as some will claim.

And I'm happy as hell that R went beyond the initial 3 factions. If all I had to choose from was two polarized human and one android/human army, I would've taken my dice elsewhere no matter how good the rules. Now we have that plus a dirty neutral human corp, psuedo-xenos from the same family of primates (which I shamelessly admit drew me into the game), and a true xenos. And they all play very differently on the tabletop. Any discussions on dilution, look at 40k.

As for R's communication: It does suck. Horribly. However, keep in mind that due to corporate restructuring there could be legal restrictions on the kind of information that can be released publicly. But that doesn't excuse everything.

Hellfury wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

As little interest as I have in every faction beyond the original 3 or 4, I do hope that R decides to completely release everything needed to competently complete all of the planned armies before the game is potentially dropped. R owes their consumers that much at least.

I hope so too, but really, "R" has shown exactly what they think of their fanbase and what they think they owe them...

Cairnius wrote:Which is different from GW how?

I dont thin either statement is fair from my experience. I have had quite a bit of contact with Jean Bey personally. Something that the Ivory towers at GW are not likely to do, either because of the "pan-fo" factor or because they literally live in an ivory tower of ignorance.
Bey was always amicable and was even generous enough to make the operation damocles book after I constantly pestered him due to their magazine going out of print. He even sent me a bunch of free jink when I expressed interest in certain portions of R's products.

Not to mention their attentive remarks to feedback concerning playtesting operation frostbite rules. Of which gaming companies do not normally allow an open beta for, especially in the case of GW.

As much criticism as Rackham deserves for many things, I do not beleive this is a case where they deserve such vitriol.

All good points, but the 'bait and switch' R did when they were transitioning from C3 to (allegedly) C4 and Rag'narok to (allegedly) Rag'narok 2 is what really did the most damage back then.

Well, that and the whole pre-painted miniatures thing.

That history, coupled with the recent "toy company" expectations? It doesn't look good...

The Sentinel question was for me...I resigned because to really be a Sentinel you have to be a fanboy. The more I learned about Rackham and how they handle things like rules questions (Cypher Creation rule re-write - I will never, ever believe anyone who says that the rule is currently being used the way Rackham originally intended it to be used, they just bowed in the face of player whining) and product distribution (Steel Trooper Attachment boxes, anyone? Most basic unit in the entire UNA army in a pre-paints game and you have to convert to field them properly?) I couldn't attach myself to the company anymore as an unpaid spokesperson. I'd rather be free and able to have the sorts of conversations I've had than swallow my tongue and listen to a lot of b.s. We in the gaming community savage Games Workshop when they deserve it, so Rackham should get precisely the same, equal treatment if they want to be in the same industry.

I think the vitriol, Hellfury, was specifically in reference to the Confrontation fiasco. I think Rackham does deserve every ounce of that from fans of the old metals game who got screwed. That's just not cool what Rackham did. At least be honest and say you're changing over to a new game and take the sales hit rather than lead people on to keep sales going.

Saint, you and I have talked about this in person but hey I never get to speak to you on forums...I don't think AT-43 mops the floor with 40K when it comes to rules at all. Lack of a proper pick-up play system, unsubstantial terrain support, horrible rules syntax, the way they handle rules questions which often results in contradicting themselves and just confusing the hell out of players...

If you look at the basic rulesets of 40K 5th and AT-43 1st, 40K is a much more playable game "right out of the book" without having to do online research. I can't tell you how many times during my first games of AT-43 you would tell me "No, the rule isn't actually what's in the book, it got corrected in a F.A.Q." I never, ever had that experience with 40K when I started playing in 4th ed.

That AT-43 is in its first edition is irrelevant - if we're having an honest conversation about rules quality from the perspective of playability, 40K wins hands down.

If you want to talk about rules quality in terms of basic conception, I think AT-43 has a lot on 40K. Alternating unit activation is better IMHO. The reserve rules are better IMHO. Leadership points are a mechanic I'm lukewarm on, but I don't hate it. The Assault/Reinforcement mechanic with the importance of RP is frakking brilliant. Not starting units on the table far more often than not is fantastic for me as I hate deployment and starting a game with a static situation. I prefer everything fluid and in motion fron the get-go.

There's no shame in loving space monkeys by the way, Saint. I look forward to turning some of yours into zombies in the near future...

Cairnius wrote:Some information has come to my attention which I have been debating what to do with.

Well known AT-43 and Rackham troll Cairnus is once again at work.

Why does Martin say that Paolo is supposed to start working on the Krygs when he left Rackham Entertainment already?

Don't tell Paolo he left then as he posted on the AT-43 forum himself. Sorry to defuse your rant but at least try to stay current with the game you appear to hate so much

Things have been quieter of late, but not everyone has got the message yet apparently. If you are going to necro a thread on this page try the one that explains quite firmly with support by the Mods that ad hominem attacks on critics of Rackham are not to be tolerated.

On Dakka we speak our minds, we are gamer grognards, and we grumble about game companies, starting with GW but not necessarily ending there. If the Sentinels and other Rackham fanbois dont like that THEY CAN GO ELSEWHERE.

If you disgree post something positive about Rackham, not negative about critics of Rackham. I am not going to let this one go until people learn.

Seeing as how Jean Bey just left Rackham, it looks like Cairnius the Bastard was partially right. Again.

You do realize that if RE was more forthcoming in their information it wouldn't take someone like me to get Paolo Parente to let out that he was working on the Krygs...perhaps RE would have been well-served to have released some concept sketches or teaser information on the Krygs since Oni came out. They really need to get some solid marketing teams on their payroll.

In the meantime, they have me. I'm still taking credit for this forum getting named for AT-43 after all the crap I stirred up and tripled the AT-43 traffic over here...so there's a certain irony to any AT-43 fanboys bitching about me while taking advantage of the opportunity I carved for them on Dakka Dakka.

P.S. Mods, let me have my illusions. It makes me smile. *grin*

Cairnius wrote:I'm still taking credit for this forum getting named for AT-43 after all the crap I stirred up and tripled the AT-43 traffic over here...so there's a certain irony to any AT-43 fanboys bitching about me while taking advantage of the opportunity I carved for them on Dakka Dakka.

I credit Lunahound for giving AT-43 a presence here. You help by starting debate, Luna and I at the time did not know enough about the game to kickstart tactics threads, or army list threads or company policy threads. The best she, or I could do was post release rumours and ask advice on basic game purchase orders.

If you go back, people were discussing AT-43 on here long before you, I, or Luna, Orlanth, so none of us get credit for giving AT-43 a presence here. It already had one.

*sniffs and looks back at his old, old posts*

Well it was therre in the same way I-Kore/Urban Mammoth turns up every year or so.

Until some of us started noting the fieresales and putting the money down did the threads roll.

If you write down enough things in your post then at some point at least some of it will be true. That does not make you the bees knees of AT-43.

Otherwise:
There will be a box released with some AT-43 models.

And here is one for GW:
There will be a Codex about Space Marines.

Now all I have to do and sit back, wait for my "predictions" to come true and I will be considered Gods Gift to wargaming.

Or perhaps I'm only a little fish in a big pond called the internet rumour mill. I don't mind being a little fish, what I do mind is other little fish taking a leak in the pond and then think the rest of us should hail them for it.

Orlanth wrote:Things have been quieter of late, but not everyone has got the message yet apparently. If you are going to necro a thread on this page try the one that explains quite firmly with support by the Mods that ad hominem attacks on critics of Rackham are not to be tolerated.

On Dakka we speak our minds, we are gamer grognards, and we grumble about game companies, starting with GW but not necessarily ending there. If the Sentinels and other Rackham fanbois dont like that THEY CAN GO ELSEWHERE.

If you disgree post something positive about Rackham, not negative about critics of Rackham. I am not going to let this one go until people learn.

AT-43.CO.UK wrote:If you write down enough things in your post then at some point at least some of it will be true. That does not make you the bees knees of AT-43.

Otherwise:
There will be a box released with some AT-43 models.

And here is one for GW:
There will be a Codex about Space Marines.

Now all I have to do and sit back, wait for my "predictions" to come true and I will be considered Gods Gift to wargaming.

Or perhaps I'm only a little fish in a big pond called the internet rumour mill. I don't mind being a little fish, what I do mind is other little fish taking a leak in the pond and then think the rest of us should hail them for it.

I just thought that you two should meet.

By the way, Cairnius, I'll have to disagree with you on that comment about 40K being more playable right out of the box. There are plenty of elements of fifth edition that still have me suspecting that they fired all of their actual staff and replaced them with monkeys and typewriters. TLOS? Wounds allocation? The crowd at my FLGS doesn't even use whole sections of those rules and we get along just fine, where as AT-43 in my opinion is not perfect, but I didn't sit there with my jaw in my lap and WTF!!!WTF!!!WTF!!! constantly running through my brain before I grasped the rules. No game is perfect, but in my opinion AT-43 is pretty close. I just wish they would gak or get off the pot.

I started playing 40K in 4th Ed. so it's kind of unfair to express any opinion on 5th Ed. "right out of the box," but I can say that I never, not once, had the sorts of rules queries issues with 40K in four years than I had with AT-43 at the beginning many times over.

The order of the main rulebook was all sorts of annoying (shouldn't the terrain section go into, or right after, the movement section, not at the very end?) and the little thing that will always stick with me is the notion of "contact," probably the most important thing to nail down if you want to conduct close combat in AT-43, is defined not within the Combat section where it needs to be but once at the very beginning of the rules and then again at the very end of the rules in the glossary.

When you can't use a rulebook to just flip to the appropriate section and find everything you need right away (like I can with the 40K 5th ed mini rulebook) then the rulebook is of limited value at the table, where one tends to need it most.

In the end, AT-43 is first edition, so they have to be given a pass, in the end, IMHO - but RE really does need to compile some of the Q&A sessions from their forums into a new FAQ or Errata. And they really, really, need to stop changing the game through answers to forum questions. If a rule is changing, get it out there in an official format that anyone can print out and bring with them - not huge fan-FAQs or just going through all the posts in the right place to get all the new rules.

- God's Gift to Wargaming

Cairnius wrote:
- God's Gift to Wargaming

Sorry, I claimed that title two posts before you did.

No, you just mentioned it. I claimed it.

Let's be honest at least - I've never been one to just randomly write gak about RE to see what was true or not. Anything I've ever said about the company has either come off the AT-43 forums, Sentinel or otherwise, from Sentinels personally, or is just so patently obvious to any observant person that there's no debate.

This latest deal was passing on information from a Sentinel, some of which turned out to be true, some of which turned out to be false. Everything he told me about Jean Bey was 100% true, probably because it came straight from the horse's mouth and he was talking about himself. The stuff about Paolo leaving, maybe that was mis-reported information from the Sentinel. Perhaps JB was referring more to the content of private conversations between him and Paolo, per Paolo wanting to leave or planning on doing so once he was finished with his sculpting work. I don't know, I'm not Jean Bey nor am I the Sentinel who had the conversation with him, but that would be my best guess. Either that, or JB was just really frustrated and talking gak. It must be difficult to lose control over your "baby," if JB really does deserve the lion's share of the credit for AT-43.

In the end, I just want to know what's going on with the company because I purchase their products. Paolo came out of the woodwork to say he is working on the Krygs, and they're on the 2010 production schedule, so that's all I care about. I don't care about the employee comings and goings at RE, I care about my minis getting produced along with some new rules/campaign content. As long as that keeps happening, and the product doesn't suck, I don't care who's responsible for making it happen.

Seemed better to add this here than start new thread.

So, here's something that's been circulating around the web for a little bit:

---
Mathieu Thérézien has sent along a translation of the post made by Rackham employee Nicolas Raoult on the French AT-43 forum regarding the company, its goals and its current scheduling and development priorities.

Q - The question that comes to my mind now is “without [Jean Bey], will the new direction have the same motivation to keep going when difficulties will present themselves (insufficient profitability,…)?

A - Jean Bey is gone, but Rackham-E is far from knocked down.

Six years ago, the business manager of Rackham at the time asked me: “what’s the objective of Rackham?” and I replied: “to make pretty miniatures." I had it all wrong, and he immediately told it to me, quoting: “No, the objective of Rackham is to make money”. The conversation lasted 5 seconds and was enough to change my view on things.

Nobody serious would start working on a project that wouldn’t provide him enough to live, especially if that’s the only project they work on. This kind of reasoning is the same for investors. The objective of Rackham is the same as for any other business: make a profit.

The new management of the company, embodied by Nathalie Lamri, is completely realistic about the profitability goals of Rackham-E, but also about the value of its two main universes: AT-43 and Aarklash. For those of you wondering about her, I can assure you that Nathalie Lamri is motivated, and that’s an euphemism. I wish you to meet her some day. That’s worth it

Back on topic, Rackham-E works on several projects while keeping on developing AT-43 and Confrontation. Allow me to elaborate on these two points.

You may have noticed that the most recently released armies (Cogs and ONI) are developed with a better visibility of the range. One maximal size ONI kopeks unit is composed of two unit boxes, and that’s it.

The release schedule and the new editorial model (Army boxes and Unit boxes) were designed depending on the number of employees, the resources, and the objectives of the company. There are less of us than there used to be, but we try to edit products with an optimal game/marketing/production ratio. Putting together a correct schedule according to these three criteria is an interesting challenge, and a very valuable professional experience ^_^.

The release schedule that Martin Terrier gave you was created in a committee with people from management, marketing, sculpting, production in China, and writers. We put our skills together to get “the best possible deal” to quote Paolo Parente. We’ll see if that long thought out edition model reveals profitable. If the customers are there, there’s no reason for it to fail!

Let me insist on one point: all the actors of Rackham-E are aware of the value of the historical universes of the company. In the worst case scenario, the Confrontation game could disappear (note the conditional mood) in its current form, but not Aarklash. And the same thing goes with AT-43.

As I mentioned earlier, we’ve also been wring for several months on new universes, with new games for all kinds of audiences. This new direction began with the change of name and of logo of the company.

The guiding principle of this approach is not to abandon AT-43 and Confrontation, but to give the company new opportunities for development and profitability.

If all goes as we hope and if our work bears fruit, Rackham-E will be less dependent on the market changes. It’ll be more diversified, and therefore stronger and better able to please everyone: bosses, employees, stores and gamers.

But hey, that’s the next step… For now we are doing our best, the only thing left to do is to knock on wood.

Today, it’s not Rackham anymore but Rackham Entertainment. Same artists, new bosses, new goals.
----



This article is being met with derision by a lot of people. Why??? This is confidence-inspiring to me. It sounds like Rackham is getting its financial head on straight, which is a bad thing?

Someone explain the negative reactions to me?

Cairnius wrote:“No, the objective of Rackham is to make money”.

I am sure that nobody will deny this.

However, how cutthroat will Rackham be? This is a dangerously loaded quote that can be misconstrued in it's nuances.

There is:
1) making money while keeping your veteran customer base (mostly) happy, while making the entry barrier for new customers high.
2) making money while alienating your veteran customer base in lieu of attracting new customers.
3) making money while miraculously attracting new customers and keeping your veteran customer base (mostly) happy.

Which is it?

I'd love for 3 to happen, but I would settle for 1. 2 is what is causing me to look at other companies besides GW, and would cause me to stop spending my money with RE, as well.

Cairnius wrote:The new management of the company, embodied by Nathalie Lamri, is completely realistic about the profitability goals of Rackham-E, but also about the value of its two main universes: AT-43 and Aarklash.

See. When GW was run by gamers, White Dwarf was worth reading and there were passionate ideas that were realized as Specialist Games. Jean Bey's vision is what brought me to RE in the first place, same with Rick Priestly's for 40K. Is Nathalie Lamri a designer, too? Or is she another Tom Kirby?

Cairnius wrote:If the customers are there, there’s no reason for it to fail!

Nevermind the customers. The products aren't there. I can't even find the Damocles Reversible Tiles from a U.S. retailer! And let's not go into the UNA Steel Troopers Attachment Boxes...

Cairnius wrote:Let me insist on one point: all the actors of Rackham-E are aware of the value of the historical universes of the company. In the worst case scenario, the Confrontation game could disappear (note the conditional mood) in its current form, but not Aarklash. And the same thing goes with AT-43.

I have no idea what this means.

I have no idea what Aarklash is. All I want to know is if AT-43 will continue to receive the full support of RE.

Cairnius wrote:As I mentioned earlier, we’ve also been wring for several months on new universes, with new games for all kinds of audiences. This new direction began with the change of name and of logo of the company.

Wait. Before RE starts writing new universes, could I please get my Reversible Gaming Tiles and ST Attachment Boxes? I'd like you to fully support your existing products before you expand and diversify and head in a new direction, please. And I'm still wondering what happened to my local Sentinel...

Cairnius wrote:If all goes as we hope and if our work bears fruit, Rackham-E will be less dependent on the market changes. It’ll be more diversified, and therefore stronger and better able to please everyone: bosses, employees, stores and gamers.

Again, I'd love to see the vision of their designers, especially what they have up their sleeves. But I'd still like them to make sure I can buy their current products before they start another project.

I'm cautious, because what I've read seems like a lot of hand waving. Okay, Jean Bey's gone, and we got this Nathalie person. But he doesn't explain why we should be happy with her other than the fact that she's enthusiastic. And then, he goes on to talk about how they are going to maintain their universes, but doesn't state if they will continue to support their games. And finally, he describes how they are diversifying their products...but the problem is that I can't even buy the current products they have! Hello, more Bunkers, please.

That's my problem with his letter.

pombe wrote:

Cairnius wrote:“No, the objective of Rackham is to make money”.

I am sure that nobody will deny this.

However, how cutthroat will Rackham be? This is a dangerously loaded quote that can be misconstrued in it's nuances.

There is:
1) making money while keeping your veteran customer base (mostly) happy, while making the entry barrier for new customers high.
2) making money while alienating your veteran customer base in lieu of attracting new customers.
3) making money while miraculously attracting new customers and keeping your veteran customer base (mostly) happy.

Which is it?

Nearly all companies exist to make money, the odd few that dont are rarely true examples of companies. There is nothing wrong in itself in wanting profit, but there are different ways of going about it. I am suprised Cairnius was foolish enough to have his original opinion at all, that Rackham existed for artistic purposes, but to some extent this can be forgiven as while companies exist for profit some means of making a living are more enjoyable than others.

Whether motivated purely by profit or by profit and art it behooves Rackham to get their work right. It doesn't integrally cost anything to get the rules right, it can cost to get them wrong. Rackham needs to learn this lesson, though not as much as GW needs to. Release schedules are more tricky because there is a material cost involved, and medium term planning is required; in this Rackham needs to learn from GW and/or Privateer who by and large get it right.
Finally pricing needs to be adressed, while the cashflow is not anything like as idiotic as that of GW, Rackham have a lot to learn. At-43 is selling in the US because it is reasonably priced, its not selling in Europe to the same degree because it is not reasonably priced. 30 euro for a boxset is too much, and is not tempting enough players away from spase mahrines. This and the head inthe sand attitude to rules and balance errors are the two sticking points that prevent Rackham from rocketing. Both are easily and cheaply solvable, but may go against entrenched thinking - a force more danagerous than any fiscal threat.

Orlanth wrote:There is nothing wrong in itself in wanting profit, but there are different ways of going about it. I am suprised Cairnius was foolish enough to have his original opinion at all, that Rackham existed for artistic purposes, but to some extent this can be forgiven as while companies exist for profit some means of making a living are more enjoyable than others.

Very much agreed.

While making a profit is the goal of most companies, one can do it without selling one's soul, so to speak.

Orlanth wrote:It doesn't integrally cost anything to get the rules right, it can cost to get them wrong. Rackham needs to learn this lesson, though not as much as GW needs to.

This needs to be planned carefully, as you need to set a rules system that can be easily bought into by the uninitiated, while getting the veterans to continue to support your product on a heavy basis (as opposed to simply picking up a unit or two whenever an army is updated).

Magic the Gathering gets around this with set retirement, which results in a constant level playing for beginners to join in while getting veterans to continuously buy product. However, fans of miniature wargames will not stand for set retirement. We've seen what happens to Wizkids when all the fans buy in, but then stop once they have everything they need. There is only a set pool of customers that would be interested in this product, and once they've bought in, you have to somehow keep them buying to support the system. And the Battletech products, while lovingly crafted, written, and balanced, are supported primarily by a small hardcore following, since the rules are so well-balanced that they really need no updating...(ie, no new editions, no new codices, no new etc etc.) the only thing left for Catalyst to do is to move the time line along since the game system itself is so well put together.

I have no easy solution here. How does one design a balanced and well-greased rules system:
1) without resulting in an arms race between the various game factions (codex creep) as you release new editions of the game
2) without resulting in an arms race between the customers based on who can spend the most to be more competitive
3) that is easy and affordable to buy into and be immediately competitive
4) that is expandable for those who enjoy the product
5) that is somehow able to continue to generate a steady stream of purchases from those who already have everything
6) that has no set retirement
?

Orlanth wrote:Release schedules are more tricky because there is a material cost involved, and medium term planning is required; in this Rackham needs to learn from GW and/or Privateer who by and large get it right.

This is obviously my main current gripe. I can't support what I cannot buy.

Orlanth wrote:Finally pricing needs to be adressed, while the cashflow is not anything like as idiotic as that of GW, Rackham have a lot to learn. At-43 is selling in the US because it is reasonably priced, its not selling in Europe to the same degree because it is not reasonably priced. 30 euro for a boxset is too much, and is not tempting enough players away from spase mahrines.

The internet has actually made this problem difficult, I think. Depending on the strength of various currencies, customers may actually find it more affordable to buy from other countries online. This can be disastrous to the local FLGS community. To be honest, I am still curious as to how GW survives in Australia. Seriously. I once stopped in the Games Workshop store on Queen Street in Brisbane. I thought maybe I'd buy something GW related as a souvenir of my travels. I saw the prices and walked out before the Red Shirt could even ask me a question. I think it will be very hard to compete in the local market and the internet market at the same time depending on where the FLGS is. Maybe there's something I don't see?

Orlanth wrote:I am suprised Cairnius was foolish enough to have his original opinion at all, that Rackham existed for artistic purposes

Whoa whoa WHOA whoa whoa whoa whoa.

When the F did I say that Rackham existed for artistic purposes? I get in enough trouble for the opinions that are mine, without you getting me in trouble by putting blatantly false ones in my mouth, Orlanth.

I've never said anything even REMOTELY akin to that once. Ever. If anything I've criticized Rackham in the past for NOT doing everything they can to make money, like good marketing and p.r. practices. I want them to make as much money as possible so that the game sticks around.

Honestly, Orlanth, I've made my peace with the rules. I house-rule anything I don't like, and it's not really the actual rules I ever had a problem with but their syntax and how they are laid out in rulebooks which can make them difficult to learn when you are first learning the game and the way in which the rulebooks are often no real help in solving questions at the table. I really think with a few tweaks they can solidify the rules well, but quite honestly I'm bored with discussing what those rules could be.

Rackham Entertainment is going to do what it is going to do. I never wrote anything I wrote with any illusions of effecting company policy. So I am just going to sit back and watch, and purchase the new minis as they come out and finish my existing collections until I have at least one of everything.

To that end, I want them profitable so they can eventually, maybe, someday, get to producing the transports.

Cairnius wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I am suprised Cairnius was foolish enough to have his original opinion at all, that Rackham existed for artistic purposes

Whoa whoa WHOA whoa whoa whoa whoa.

When the F did I say that Rackham existed for artistic purposes? I get in enough trouble for the opinions that are mine, without you getting me in trouble by putting blatantly false ones in my mouth, Orlanth.

Ok, I can accept that I misrepresented your opinions, as we have never met.

Cairnius wrote:
Six years ago, the business manager of Rackham at the time asked me: “what’s the objective of Rackham?” and I replied: “to make pretty miniatures." I had it all wrong, and he immediately told it to me, quoting: “No, the objective of Rackham is to make money”. The conversation lasted 5 seconds and was enough to change my view on things.

However I based my interpretation fairly upon the above comment.

Cairnius wrote:
Honestly, Orlanth, I've made my peace with the rules.

The rest of the post was nothing about you Cairnius, I have my own disagreements with how Rackham does things and was speaking my own mind. To me the release schedules need reorganising notably to focus on covering existing lines rather than create new ones and by collapsing many of the rqaces for Confrontation, 15+ factions is too many. Warhammer doesnt have that many full factions and is far better established. Rackham is trying too much, I weould currently delay Krygs until 2011 also, instead adding a new supplement and fresh units for each of the six extant armies if anything at all. This is after maintaining coverage of existing lines, and the transports promised. Secondly the rules need a thorough fixing. I did mention that the later was of no cost to the company, this is true if 2nd edition rules are available are released on the internets - at least on a provisional basis.




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pombe wrote:
The internet has actually made this problem difficult, I think. Depending on the strength of various currencies, customers may actually find it more affordable to buy from other countries online. This can be disastrous to the local FLGS community. To be honest, I am still curious as to how GW survives in Australia. Seriously. I once stopped in the Games Workshop store on Queen Street in Brisbane. I thought maybe I'd buy something GW related as a souvenir of my travels. I saw the prices and walked out before the Red Shirt could even ask me a question. I think it will be very hard to compete in the local market and the internet market at the same time depending on where the FLGS is. Maybe there's something I don't see?

Aussies are shafted because of long range shipping and poor exchange rates. While expensive (this is not the place for yet another GW pricing thread) the base UK price is understandable to some degree. The base price for AT-43 is in Euros, and it is most expensive in that form. The product gets shipped to France who ship to the USA where it is sold cheaper, while this sort of shenanigans is common with the Uk auto parts trade it doesn't do for a toy company. Like with the Uk price for GW it should be logically cheapest in France. It isn't because Rackham bean counters don't know how not to suck.

Orlanth wrote:

Cairnius wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I am suprised Cairnius was foolish enough to have his original opinion at all, that Rackham existed for artistic purposes

Whoa whoa WHOA whoa whoa whoa whoa.

When the F did I say that Rackham existed for artistic purposes? I get in enough trouble for the opinions that are mine, without you getting me in trouble by putting blatantly false ones in my mouth, Orlanth.

Ok, I can accept that I misrepresented your opinions, as we have never met.

Cairnius wrote:
Six years ago, the business manager of Rackham at the time asked me: “what’s the objective of Rackham?” and I replied: “to make pretty miniatures." I had it all wrong, and he immediately told it to me, quoting: “No, the objective of Rackham is to make money”. The conversation lasted 5 seconds and was enough to change my view on things.

However I based my interpretation fairly upon the above comment.

For the record that quote was not by Cairnius. In his post he starts by stating that there is a text floating on the web translated from French. He then pastes that translation into his post. You (Orlanth) then quoted from that part of the post thinking it was something that Cairnius had said.

Yeah, what he said. That was all from Nicolas Raoult, as it says in the first post where I quoted him.

Don't know who he is other than someone who works for Rackham Entertainment...