Hi

Starting a new space marine army, but need help on units.

Please post tactics/units which are good/bad

Ten Commandments of Codex Space Marines:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.



Tell us what you like or think is "cool" about the marines, and we can tell you where to go from there.

Extra commandment

11. Usually when taking Landspeeders it's better to use them as separate choises instead having them as squadron.

Mahu wrote:Ten Commandments of Codex Space Marines:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.



Tell us what you like or think is "cool" about the marines, and we can tell you where to go from there.

For a 10 point general list, this is pretty solid.

Mahu wrote:Ten Commandments of Codex Space Marines:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.



Tell us what you like or think is "cool" about the marines, and we can tell you where to go from there.

Only one I disagree with is number 7. 5 points for a plasmacannon is a great buy when combined with a plasma rifle.

Always put your librarian with your veterens. If I'm playing offensive, I put him with vanguard vets, no jumppacks, using the powers Quickening and Might of the Ancients. Or if I'm being defensive, put him with my sternguar vets and use Machine Curse and Smite.

honestly, a librarian can work well in several ways... here are some of the ways i've used one successfully -

*librarian + 5 man tac squad in a razorback
normally used with null zone + avenger, he can make a cheap squad a threat, while providing null zone to nearby units that make better use of it.

*librarian + 10 man assault squad w/ flamers
again with null zone + avenger, he makes the squad a real threat against any unit. cheaper than vangaurd, they still throw out 3 templates per turn, 1 of which is ap3, and put out 8 power sword attacks on the charge, nothing to scoff at. you can mix it up with might of the ancients if you want, but avenger rocks.

*librarian + 10 shooty terminators
equipped with terminator armor and a stormshield, he's most durable here. give him null zone + vortex of doom, and he will just walk up the field with the squad pumping out bullets. you can also give him gate + null zone if you want, but make sure you take null zone... it rocks.

*librarian + command squad or honor guard
either on bikes or off, the librarian gets the added perk of feel no pain here, making him more durable. He's going into close combat here, so the best way to kit him would be as an epistolary with force dome + either null zone, avenger, or might of the ancients, depending on the situation. If you take stormshields, forget the epistolary upgrade, its not needed.





this is not an exhaustive list, but anywhere else and I feel the librarian isn't best used. don't put him with assault terminators... he really shouldn't be used in such an offensive roll unless he is needed for force dome. the whole librarian + sternguard thing is kinda OTT points wise for my taste... a kitted out sternguard squad is approaching the cost of a 10 man shooty terminator squad, and i'd rather have the terminators.

Mahu wrote:Ten Commandments of Codex Space Marines:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.

Tell us what you like or think is "cool" about the marines, and we can tell you where to go from there.

I disagree with 7 and 10 - If you are definatly going to combat squad, there is no reason you shouldn't pay points for a Heavy Weapon. Also, if you running a flamer/fist or melta/combi melta combat squad, how can you not be agressive with them?

Also, point 1 depends on your local metagame. If no-one plays a Inv save heavy army, its kind of a waste. (for example, only one person at my local ever has more than 1 model with a inv save (as chaos player who often runs a squad of 1ksons). I think something like Machine Curse and The Avenger/Smite work far better.

I agree with Horsts' uses for the librarian. However I believe the best would be using him in a 5 man tac with a TW lascannon razorback or as a terminator with an assault termie squad in a land raider. Powers would be nullzone on both instances, with Avenger for the standard libby, and Might with the termie libby.

Ignore weapons with a libby and give him sheild so he lasts longer. And if you can afford the points, make him an epistolary.

Just my 3 cents.

jimbob2002 wrote:Hi
Starting a new space marine army, but need help on units.
Please post tactics/units which are good/bad

* Special Characters will usually give you better value for points than building your own Captain or Chapter Master.
* Librarians with TDA & Storm Shield are very good if you do not want a Special Character or as a second HQ.
* Land Speeders & Attack Bikes are good delivery platforms for Multi-Meltas
* Assault Terminators in a Land Raider are very effective in combat.

I've been writing what I'm thinking about each space marine unit, I'll keep adding once a day or so (unless I get extremely busy)

So if you want to know what I think then you can go and read it here

Are jump pack vanguards really worth the points?

Depends...but most will say no.
They require a list built around them to make the most out of them.

Much of the points you pay for them is the ability to charge after deepstriking...which means the risk/resources are high to get it to work, while the rewards are not exactly consistantly high.

I disagree with #7. Plasma Cannons are a great deal in a Tactical Squad. So much so that even if you don't fire them, it's not much of a waste. Any Heavy weapon that can wipe out half a MEQ squad in one good shot is a good option to have in my book.

Vanguard with packs are generally not worth the points. But like everything else in the SM codex, it's how you use it, and how it works in your army.

Synergy and gameplan are everything to a Space Marine army. Without cohesion, your force will seem weak and underpowered and overcosted. With cohesion, you can compete with anyone anywhere.

True, if you look at all the unit options, they are essentially all support units.
Even the 'rank and file' tacticals are really just support units to the support units.

So are Sternguard a much more viable option

Yes.

They have their faults but are alot easier to apply than vanguard.
And open a can of whoop-ass at range.

Thanks for the help

I have heard many people refer to bikers as 'hammer' units. What does this mean exactly

Well, they are fast delivery systems for Biker ICs, Special weapons, and alot of dakka and damage in the short term, with a hvy weapon to boot.

They can drive up fast, get within charge distance open fire with:
Hvy bolter or Multi-melta,
2 Special weapons.
And then roughly 7 TL bolters in rapid fire range.
What's left (that hasn't run away or taken wounds from front enough to deny a charge) is charged with a further handful of attacks and maybe an IC and fists in there.

So, they are relatively durable, do shooting well, combat not so much but doable, very fast, carry weapons to deal with anything in 40K

Should they need to they don't need to approach and stay at arms length.
Then there's the base abuse issues.

They have their cons though:
-Largefootprints are double edged swords.
-No going up second floor
-Low model count
-Overestimating durability
-Not really a combat unit
-Pricey points and money wise.
-Requires more thought in usage and deployment than other units to get the most out of.

And yes, I do love bikers...

Thanks for the help.

just been putting a list together, but stumped on Elites. Whats best, termies, Dreadnoughts, or Sternguard?

Sternguard. No termis. No dreadnoughts.

Depends on what your list is like. If you're heavy on MM attack bikes or speeders you won't need sternguard with combimeltas or dreads with MM. Dreads can be fielded with two tl autocannons for anti transport duty which is covered by few SM units. Assaulttermis (TH/SS) are one of the hardest cc units ever. standard termis can be equipped with nice shooting (HF cheap antihorde, AC little pricey but versatile and Cyclone ML for anti vehicle or antihorde) and still be a bitch in hth.
Elite choices can fill in any gap your army might have (with pedro your Sternguard can even be scoring) or set up a core you might build around.

I got 10 assault termies, and 10 Normal. I've got many multi meltas, so not really worth the dreads.

I've got a full unit of Sternguard, but I was thinking of making 2 with heavy flamers, for anti-horde, as my army lacks this. What you think

That is a unique choice.
Decent I would say, but what is the delivery.

I would want to say a rhino cause you can focus on tank shocking to bunch up the enemy.

Great idea Sanctjud, I'll try it out next game.

Is Pedro worth taking, so that these guys can be scoring units

Well... how many stern are you taking?
How many squads?
Do you really need the +1A Aura?
Would you rather have Stubborn or Combat Tactics?

Answer some of those and you'll answer your own question.

Anyway, Pedro is a decent character, nothing too flashy. Though I and others do like scoring units, it's not the end all and be all of things.

Sanctjud wrote:
I would want to say a rhino cause you can focus on tank shocking to bunch up the enemy.

IMO 250ish points of sterngaurd are quite expensive to trust in a 35pt rhino.
I would gate Libby with a pod rather?

I'd trust them to a rhino before putting them with the librarian.

"lets teleport, and then bunch up into a template shape!"

god, i've never seen that end well. sure, they teleport and get their rapid fire off, but then they are vaporized.

@adielubbe:
Well, one doesn't HAVE to purchase 10 Sternguard.
Wouldn't a gate libby/pod be more dangerous than a rhino?

They are exposed for at least a turn when they arrive and can die to poor scatterings (off the board is still possible if you have to get 'that' close for flamers), in addition to that the power itself could kill a guy and then after they arrive through gate, they are in wonderful pie plate formation.

Also, what happens if the opponent doesn't set up any exposed infantry, that means you need to spend more points to get another pod to hold them in reserve to come in later...which can be better or worse if they come in later...

/shrug. Both have pros and cons. I like the pod for the alpha strike, but there are far too many mech armies (at least in my area) to warrent their immediate arrival.

Mech rhinos is a pretty standard thing. Rhino-fying sterns adds another rhino to saturation and the stern can perform 'counter-shoot' role...

Just a different approach to them.
Podding Sterns can work well...

adielubbe wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:
I would want to say a rhino cause you can focus on tank shocking to bunch up the enemy.

IMO 250ish points of sterngaurd are quite expensive to trust in a 35pt rhino.
I would gate Libby with a pod rather?

And make them targetable?
9 Sternguard + GoI libby in rhino (in case it blows up) is better than the pod variant. If you want to survive that is.

Sure you can hurt a lot in the first turn getting out of the pod. But if your in flamer range, then they will kill or assault you in their turn.
And many people claim you cannot use GoI when stuck in melee.

Seriously thought, every time I've drop podded sternguard, they haven't survived past turn 1.

Guess the enemy just sees my lists and piles up a bit, or stays in reserve in DoW missions. Drop podding down when theres no enemies around, or when all enemies are at one place will make your sternguard do nothing or die.

IMO ;P

Guess I'll use a rhino

What heavy support is best. I'm using CC termies, so edging towards land raider, but what else should I take. It's a heavily shooty army.

what is the rest of your army lacking? If you want heavy anti-infantry heavy support, i'd say take 2x dakka preds(heavy bolter + autocannon) + a thunderfire.

if you want heavy anti-tank, 3x autocannon+lascannon predators are a bargain for the firepower they put out.

in either case, use the land raider as a dedicated transport to free up all your heavy slots.

Well...termies can get their own dedicated LR.
As to Hvy Support, almost all of them are shooty. And (unlike me to say this but) ALL are useful and have a place.

Dakka Preds are a great deal for points.
Devs get you many hvy weapons consolidated into one unit.
Thunderfires are a utility anti-infantry platform.
WW see some usage, best against Flak armor units behind cover or GEQ in cover.
Vindis are Vindis...
LR varients are LR varients...though I would not suggest LR's for new people unless they really like the model. They are not a no-brainer unit and need to be babied as AV14 (though max) has glaring limits.

What about this list?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5ewxRbexaU

It has basically:

Pedro
Cassius
Assault termies
LR
20 Tacs (2x10)
2 Razorbacks
14 Sterngaurd (2x7)
2 Drop pods

1850pts

?
This is what i was thinking with regards to the drop pods.
I have not played with them.
How about running something similar, but with an ironclad instead of one Sterngaurd Squad?

Wow, I love Mahu's list...

Pretty good stuff.

I'll chime in and say that you can buy whatever you want for a tac squad heavy weapon if your plan is to "usually" combat squad. I run 2x10 tacs with razorbacks a lot. I am almost always combat squadding, so i don't hesitate to spring for a lascannon if its clear I need to punch up my anti-transport/gunship kill.

I also want to make clear that you will never out-shoot everyone, and you will never out-chop everyone, no matter how you build your list. However, in every game you play you will either out-shoot or out-chop your opponent.

In basic terms. Take a good spread of these things...

long range anti-light armor (lascannons, missile launchers of all types, autocannons, conversion beamer) This is vital equipment. Transports, especially fast moving ones, need to be taken down in the early game. The more maneuvering your opponent can do while transported, the better his chances of a win are. Also, there is a short but dangerous list of lightly armored vehicles that carry a substantial amount of firepower. Things like land speeder typhoons, vendetta gunships, ravagers, fire prisms. they don't have to stop to shoot, they won't let you get close to them to kill them, and they tend to hunt your mobility and tank kill first. They are high priority targets.

short range anti-heavy tank (meltaguns, multi-meltas, demolisher cannons) You need some of this, but the danger is to fall into the trap of taking too much of this. This is really for land raiders, ironclads and soul grinders.

short range anti-heavy infantry (plasma guns, plasma cannons, demolisher cannons) My imperial guard army needs a lot more of this than space marines do, primarily because you have assault terminator counter-charge option. This is there to help you beat back bloodcrushers, nob bikers, thunderwolf cavalry, demon princes, and terminators.

mid-range anti-light infantry (heavy bolters, bolters, assault cannons, missile launchers of all types, whirlwind missile launchers) Space marines get a lot of this for free with their BS4 bolters, so it isn't too much of a concern. If hordes of gaunts, orks or guardsmen are giving you fits, you may want to increase your output here.

counter-assault (assault terminators) Remember when everyone said you can't really make a completely shooty army. Its just not a capability the codex has. You are given a choice between many different 'toolbox' units, none of which can just line up and slug it out with dedicated shooters. This means that you don't have the volume of fire necessary to bring down the tough aggressive infantry units and monstrous creatures that will be attacking you. Nothing fixes this problem better than a unit of assault terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields. They are purpose built to tackle hard hitting, armor ignoring monstrous creatures/infantry units. A perfect stop-gap for the vulnerabilities of space marines. A land raider of any variety housing this unit is a great starting point for any first time marine player. You can use the land raider to protect your terminators from any support fire while also using it as a main battle tank when facing armies that will be the aggressor to you, and you can use the land raider as the spear tip of your assault when facing armies that choose to react to you.

Hope that was a good primer of where to start. The ultimate list you construct can be many and various, as long as you've covered the bases you need to cover. It'll be a cocktail of your own design, and constantly adjusted as you get more and more games under your belt.

Shep and Mahu sum it up pretty well

I agree especially with Shep about the Land Raider Termie soncept.

Seriously consider picking up a Bike "commander" to be able to take bikes as troops.


It reduces your numbers but overall they are fantastic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanguard:

Make a really great countercharge unit when you use them in conjunction with a Drop List add in pedro and you have something like 8 powerfists coming from a 210 point 5 man squad w/ 2 powerfists.

They are just so fragile tho :( and difficult to use.

Hollismason wrote:Seriously consider picking up a Bike "commander" to be able to take bikes as troops.


It reduces your numbers but overall they are fantastic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanguard:

Make a really great countercharge unit when you use them in conjunction with a Drop List add in pedro and you have something like 8 powerfists coming from a 210 point 5 man squad w/ 2 powerfists.

They are just so fragile tho :( and difficult to use.

Disagree here. The Bike Captain is mandatory if you want to build a bike heavy list, but is normally a waste of points in a shooting focused army. Unless you are trying to take extra FA units, you are better off keeping the HQs as cheap as possible. Either a Chaplain or Libby will work fine to support a counter assault unit like Terminators.

As for heavy support, in a shooting heavy SM force I strongly suggest always taking a WW or a Thunderfire. The ability to drop ranged templates that ignore cover saves is huge. My current favorite is the Thunderfire because of its longer range and the Techmarine's ancilliary abilities (i.e. bolster ruins) that can be used to benefit other parts of your army.

Well...bikers are a shooty focused unit.
Not all shooty lists have to be static.

Biker troops are a flexible option for a shooty army...mobile squads with triple melta action is very nice...backed up by respectable TL bolters.

Sanctjud wrote:Well...bikers are a shooty focused unit.
Not all shooty lists have to be static.

Biker troops are a flexible option for a shooty army...mobile squads with triple melta action is very nice...backed up by respectable TL bolters.

I agree that bikers are a good shooting unit. But the Captain with Bike is not a good buy if you plan on only using one squad and do not plan on maxing out fast attack. Otherwise, a bike squadron plus a landspeeder squadron and an attack bike squadron are good FA choices to round out the list and you can buy a cheaper HQ to support any of those.

A biker captain hovers around 165 to 180.
It's a fairly balanced price for something that's a Daemon Prince that is faster and retains the IC status, coupled with a better INV save.

One pays more to get more. If you can function without the scoring bikes, then by all means don't get him, but I would highly suggest getting a bike captain, I feel everyone should experience the wonderful feeling of going THAT fast...and still be playing a 'real' MEQ army.

/shrug.

Scoring bikers, even with one squad, are pretty clutch unit in objective games when supported well.
A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

Sanctjud wrote:

A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

QFT.
Also considering Kantor gives +1 attack to all friendly within 12"
(which in itself is enough reason to take him, especially in large and/or doubles games)
A bike HQ is just a good unit. period

Sanctjud wrote:A biker captain hovers around 165 to 180.
It's a fairly balanced price for something that's a Daemon Prince that is faster and retains the IC status, coupled with a better INV save.

One pays more to get more. If you can function without the scoring bikes, then by all means don't get him, but I would highly suggest getting a bike captain, I feel everyone should experience the wonderful feeling of going THAT fast...and still be playing a 'real' MEQ army.

/shrug.

Scoring bikers, even with one squad, are pretty clutch unit in objective games when supported well.
A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I usually invest the 65 to 80 points I save on a HQ choice back into another unit. You're only 5 points away from a Dakka Pred or a WW after all. A bike captain with a good size bike unit (even just one) is a fairly considerable investment in points. Maybe I'm just a MSU hold over guy from previous editions. I do like the pros, but usually fill similiar roles with a fourth tactical squad.

True. Different things float our boats.
I can see the appeal of the dakka preds, but I just don't like preds in general, for non-game reasons...including the WW, actually all the hvy support are not that interesting to me...though I use some of it.

As for the biker captain... I run an all biker list, so I actually don't have a choice in the matter, so that definetly skews my point of view on the Captain.

I for one do not like MSU, in any additions, but that's mainly due to asthetics and my liking larger beefy squads as I generally prefer bodies over special weapons in an insane world of mass special weapons, for better or for worse.

I generally don't know what to do if I had 65-80 points remaining... nothing I'd want to take fits that point range...throwing a Dakka Pred in IMO doesn't immediately help the list...as it would be the only armored target in my list........ nor would it 'fit'... esp. with soft scores and army comp (if people still use those)...

if you run full size biker squads, you have the option for going MSU with combat squads. its allllll good!!!

What wepeons should I equip my tactical squads with. I need anti tank, so thinking Meltas, Lascannons etc...

jimbob2002 wrote:What wepeons should I equip my tactical squads with. I need anti tank, so thinking Meltas, Lascannons etc...

Depends on what you want them to do. Common builds are:

Meltagun/Multi-Melta for close range fire fights

Plasmagun/Plasma Cannon for holding objectives and anti-TEQ

Missile Launcher/Flamer to keep them cheap and versatile

I often combat squad and use a lascannon and either a meltagun or plasma rifle. The lascannon + 4 bolters sits back and shoots while the Sergeant, Meltagun and 3 bolters move up to engage/take objectives. Sarge usually gets a powerfist or powerweapon + melta bombs.

I agree with all of Shep's analysis, except have one thing to add. Assault terminators aren't the only viable countercharge unit for an otherwise-shooty army. I'm getting good results with dreadnoughts in that role.

As long as they have dccws, dreads can bog and grind away nearly anything in close combat. A lot of things can't even hurt them. Plus, unlike assault termies, dreads can shoot while they're standing around waiting to countercharge. You can get two MM/DCCW dreads for about the same cost as a unit of assault termies, and they don't need transport.

The one thing they're vulnerable to in assault is monstrous creatures. But if you have a shooty army otherwise, monstrous creatures don't make it into your lines that often.

Two minimum in an army, three is better.

Hmm, funny, I don't think I've ever used a Tactical squad...Bikers FTW IMO.

But I've seen the plasma squad used alot...quite decent for points.

Just finished a game (I won!!! ) and used 2 scoring units of bikers, and a tactical squad. The bikes were really good at holding objectives, and the tactical squad suprisingly held their own (I thought they crumple instantly).

I also had a full unit of MM attack bikes, which took down 2 wave serpents, and and a fire prism.

Thank you for the compliment Shep. I agree mostly with your post, but my disagreements are mostly minor, and it could be the result of my local meta.

I will explain my ten commandments fully:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

The Librarian is the most cost effective HQ in the codex, hands down, and goes with almost any list. Null Zone is key because it gives us an answer to Deamon armies and other armies bigger assault units. 9 times out of 10 competitive armies you will face, you will need to Hood something (PBS, Lash< JoWW) or Null Zone something (Ork Nobs, Lone Wolves, Deamons). That is why it is an essential choice for a competitive SM list.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

Most of our units are better shooters then assaulters. We have only a few units that are pure assault (Assault Terminators, Vanguard), that's why when building lists, we have to answer what we are going to do in the shooting phase. My Vulkan lists are trending more towards maximizing the amount of MM I have in the list (my last 2000 point army list had 9). Our assault elements are supposed to be targeting units of opportunity and striking with the right timing, we don't have the assault capability to do a hammer army so why bother. The fact that other armies can be a hammer better then ours should prove this point to you.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

This is an old 4th edition playstyle that has lost alot of it's effectiveness due to the Drop Pod Assault rules and the simple fact that you opponent can hold their whole army in reserve and just react to you with impunity. I also advise against anything in Power Armor in a Drop Pod. The first time you face against the template spam of IG, you will know why.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

This should be a no brainer, but always take into consideration what you want to land on the first turn. The general rule of thumb it that Dreadnoughts are the best candidates to land on the first turn, with your other units showing up later.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

Land Raiders are the best they have ever been and are never a bad investment. There is also no army build that can't use one. All variants are equally effective just are better at different things.

Standard Raider is a good support unit to other shooting in your army and is best when holding a scoring unit near a back field objective. The range it provides can really be helpful against certain armies.

The Crusader it the best assault variant, namely because it's one of the few tanks in the game that can move and fire all it's weapons.

The Redeemer it the best Mid-field variant. Because it is most effective if not moving, but requires things to get close to it.

Always consider the Land Raider Variant's shooting when you are trying to determine it's role in your list. A Land Raider that spend every turn firing, is a Land Raider being used effectively. They can be played aggressively, but tend to fall to the amount of units that can fry it up close. It's better to be cautios and have the opponent come to you.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

To me, this is the biggest thing about the Marines.

The Marines to me are a "reactionary" army, I.E. you look at what your opponent is doing and react to that. We have the flexibility in our units and lists to adapt to changing conditions.

That's why I am not a fan of "you know ahead of time when you are combat squading", I.E. a ten man Tactical Squad with a Razorback, etc. I always go with either ten in a Rhino, or 5-6 in a Razorback.

The reason why is that with changing conditions and the amount of different types forces you will face, may give your opponents a few extra kill points for easy to target combat squads. My rule of thumb, and this is just me, is that I build my list so that if I have to be fully within tanks because of the shooty my opponent has, then I have that option. If KP is not an issue and I can combat squad considering my opponent I will, but having the flexibility to adapt to your opponent and the mission you are playing is our primary advantage in game, and an advantage I try to maximize when I build my lists.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

From what I have found, is that all the heavy weapon choices are about equal. Plasma Cannons are good but wasted on heavy mech armies, and Lascannons don't have the stopping power on high armored targets like they used to, but are still good at light transport killing. So why should I have to pay extra for them, if I get the same type of investment from a ML or MM.

Don't get me wrong, I still field lascannons in my Tactical Squads when I play more shooty lists, but on the competitive level, there really is no reason to invest in them.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

Since a lot of our special characters fundamentally change how most of our units opporate, knowing which one you are going to use is key to building the rest of your army. We are fortunate to have very few "bad" character choices.

You also don't need a special character in a list as well, but that still dictates what you are going to support them with.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

I have found Combat Tactics to be lackluster, because you are still required to loose the combat. In an elite army like ours we can't suffer casulties well. So just be very careful when you choose (and you should be the one to choose) which of your units are going to be charged or will charge what. Another downside to Combat Tactics is that you can still fall off the board if you are escorted, and loosing critical turns to move towards objectives is a bad thing.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.

This is a key strategy. They are not particularly good at something like other armies troops squads. They rely on surgical strikes and landing on objectives at the right time. Heavy Weapons in an Access point vehicle is your friend.



I hope that explains my reasoning a little more, and there are more "commandants" that can be generated, but these are probably the more important things I have picked up in playtesting the codex for the past 6 months.

I forget who is the big proponent of long range antitank ; but he is right its someone on here.


People will go on and on and on about Multimeltas and they are excelent but seriously consider a 10 man unit in a rhino w/ a lascannon.


edit:

A 5 Man Bike squad w/ 2 special weapons and powerfist is a excellet retinue for a Captain on a Bike.

Captain on bike w/ Relic blade 165
5 Man w/ 2 Plasmas or meltas whatever floats your boat
Powerfist

Add in a Librarian w/ Nullzone and Vortex

You now have a fantastic unit that scores ; it doesnt get feel no pain but whateva

Hollismason wrote:I forget who is the big proponent of long range antitank ; but he is right its someone on here.


People will go on and on and on about Multimeltas and they are excelent but seriously consider a 10 man unit in a rhino w/ a lascannon.


edit:

A 5 Man Bike squad w/ 2 special weapons and powerfist is a excellet retinue for a Captain on a Bike.

Captain on bike w/ Relic blade 165
5 Man w/ 2 Plasmas or meltas whatever floats your boat
Powerfist

Add in a Librarian w/ Nullzone and Vortex

You now have a fantastic unit that scores ; it doesnt get feel no pain but whateva

I'm one of the biggest proponents of long range firepower. I think that Marines can really shape the fight by using the 25" to 48" range fight to take out or cripple key pieces in the opponents army and then close to inside 24" to finish the fight with bolters and rapid fire weapons. I don't like having the bulk of my firepower effective only inside 24" as I think it plays into the strength of assault armies too much.

well if you mount them on bikes your normally OK. not much has a 24" charge range, and with a 12" move, you can normally kite them. I'd rather fire a multimelta than a lascannon, even at ranges of over 12". the 1 less STR is compensated by the +1 damage from AP1.

Horst wrote:well if you mount them on bikes your normally OK. not much has a 24" charge range, and with a 12" move, you can normally kite them. I'd rather fire a multimelta than a lascannon, even at ranges of over 12". the 1 less STR is compensated by the +1 damage from AP1.

Yes, but a lascannon also has double the range. There are alot of games where the extra range has been able to translate into an extra turn of shooting for me because I can deploy with additional depth.

meh, a multimelta on a bike is only 12" shorter ranged than a lascannon effectively, because you can move 12" and fire.

Yes, but you don't benefit from the additional range if you are trying to trade space for time and gain additional turns of shooting since you are backing up from the enemy.

Well yeah, but aren't you moving 12" closer to your enemy and kind of missing the point of out ranging him?

My current 2k team (That so far suprisingly hasn't failed)

HQ
TDA libby with storm shield
Captain on bike with relic blade

Elites
5 TH/SS termies with LR
6 Sternguard w/x2 HF 'n Rhino

Troops
10 man Tactical, PF, MM, meltagun, Rhino
10 man tactical, MM, meltagun, Rhino
5 man scouts, snipers 'n camo cloaks
5 bikers, x2 meltaguns

FA
3 attack bikes, 3 MM
2 landspeeders, 1 typhoon, 1 tornado w/a HF, MM

Can anyone advise me on any changes/ tactics I could use.

jimbob2002 wrote:My current 2k team (That so far suprisingly hasn't failed)

HQ
TDA libby with storm shield
Captain on bike with relic blade

Elites
5 TH/SS termies with LR
6 Sternguard w/x2 HF 'n Rhino

Troops
10 man Tactical, PF, MM, meltagun, Rhino
10 man tactical, MM, meltagun, Rhino
5 man scouts, snipers 'n camo cloaks
5 bikers, x2 meltaguns

FA
3 attack bikes, 3 MM
2 landspeeders, 1 typhoon, 1 tornado w/a HF, MM

Can anyone advise me on any changes/ tactics I could use.

Pretty solid list. The Terminators provide good counter charge. The Sternguard are a nice counter-punch piece (counter attack by fire if you want to be doctrinally correct ) The tactical squads and bikes are solid units and the scouts are a cheap and surprisingly durable scoring unit when in cover. The LR itself provides a modicum of ranged firepower. I would probably make the second land speeder a typhoon just to get a third platform with range 24"+ since you have enough melta and flame templates elsewhere in the list.

Cheers Panzer, will try that out. Does anyone reckon I need more Mech/Devastators (An oppenent said I did, he held me to a draw.)

I'll say this once I started using them I absolutely love the Landspeeder Typhoon.

Lots of people are for the multimelta ; h. flamer and its a fantastic choice.

You can't bet 2 STR 8 shots or 2 ST4 Blasts and 3 ST5 shots tho.

I think the range is what I like the most.

Mahu's is quite right in most points. I'll add .

11. Always take multiples for everything.

12a. Your units should have duality (have multiple purposes)

12b. Your units should still have a dedicated purpose (if they are trying to do multiple things it will fail, but be prepared for anything)

13. You should be mechanized. (consider this my golden rule)

14. Melta is the most valuable weapon.

15. Speed kills.

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

EzeKK wrote:Mahu's is quite right in most points. I'll add .

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

Disagree here. Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds are VERY good units for a low point cost and the only units that SM have that fling ranged templates that ignore cover saves. The Techmarine also brings very good synergy to a shooty marine list with his abilities in addition to the heavy 4 blast cannon he totes along.

Well, they are all useful, but they have a pretty narrow application.

That, to some, is a sign of weakness.

I would say that they are units to try and used to support the army.
I would NOT suggest them to be the main assets of a list.

Scout Bikers are deceptively powerful.

In regards to sternguard, I have a suggestion on how to use them. I have only seen them used this way, haven't used them myself.

Libby with gate, nullzone (Or tigurius)

Sternguard w/2 heavy flamers, powerfist, combi-meltas to taste in a drop pod.

You have several options here. You have achieved generalization because you are a threat to all units with either anti-infantry with multiple template, anti tank with multiple meltas, and decent assault.

Should you chose the drop, you can get out and hammer a unit, and gate away the next turn to do it again. If you find yourself facing Pie plate IG, you can hold these guys back and gate around with your libby (or steal a transport). The drop pod now adds +1 to your numbers for drop pod assault. If you had 2 dread dropping, you can drop them both now on turn 1.

Tigurius can add some nasty utility - nullzone, avenger, forcedome on the drop is nothing to sneeze at. Plus he can boost your reserve rolls.

Every time I use my sternguard like this, they got shot to pieces on the next turn

I just stick them in a rhino

Or take one hammer unit with 5 combimeltas and 5 combi flamers drop in and take pot shots at targets of oppurtuniy.

Also, Scout bikers are deceptively powerful unit. Do not knock a 20 point toughness 5 model I dont care if it cannot score.


Also,
Sternguard with Pedro but in a Rhino with 2 lascannons or Plasma Cannons is a great unit to objective sit.

Rhino > than drop pod on sternguard most of the time imo

Overall i would say:
Rhino > Drop Pod Nearly all the time

Ironclad and such are obviously a differant case though

Obviously because they can't surf rhinos?

Sanctjud wrote:Obviously because they can't surf rhinos?

Pissed off Rhino agrees, can't surf rhinos!

11. Always take multiples for everything.

Not necessarily true. Certain units can be used in a single model / unit compacity, such as Thunderfire Cannons and Assault Terminators. It's a trap to think you have to absolutely take multiples of everything because you can end up wasting points. It's more important to know what the units in your army are going to do first.

12a. Your units should have duality (have multiple purposes)

12b. Your units should still have a dedicated purpose (if they are trying to do multiple things it will fail, but be prepared for anything)

Your units should be good at something but tactically flexible to handle multiple situations, which is the key to good Marine Strategy. That's why I take Vortex of Doom on my Librarian that rides with the Assault Terminators, if absolutely pressed I have something that can pop a tank, so I can get the charge off.

13. You should be mechanized. (consider this my golden rule)

I agree, Mech Marines are the best Marines.

14. Melta is the most valuable weapon.

But not the only weapon, I have shot myself in the foot before by not having things to deal with Hordes.

15. Speed kills.

More cautious and reactionary moves over aggressive ones.

16. Vanguard, Honor Guard, Scout Bikers, Thunderfire Cannon, and Whirlwinds are units you stay away from.

Vanguard and Honor Guard are over priced, but extremely effective if they hit their target, Thunderfire Cannons are made of pure win, Whirlwinds are a nice cheap alternative to Predators, Scout Bikers have their place.


List building is more knowing what you are doing with what then maximizing on a few good units and taking multiples.

I can field a Thunderfire Cannon in a Vulkan List because I know I can pop transports and mop up the guys in side by pure weight of wounds. Synergy of units, battle plan, and anticipation of your enemy are key points of any strategy. For Marines, they excel at reactionary moves, mid field domination, and surgical striking. Synergy of units doesn't necessarily mean multiples of the same unit.

Thunderfire Cannons are incredible.

they have good range, and can do something every turn.

even if you are facing land raider spam, you can put difficult terrain under the land raiders and hope they roll 1's on their tests next turn.

one game my opponent killed 6 TH/SS terminators in one round of shooting from just the thunderfire, (bad consolodation after an assault, left a placement where a "hit" gave him 5 termies, all 4 shots hit, str 6 shot, pulled out 19 wounds, 6 failed saves.

another game the difficult terrain shot immobilized 2 land raiders on turn 1, (one shot scattered onto a second land raider, both of them rolled 1's)

there are a tricks to using them,

Put them in a ruin, and Bolster that ruin. 3+ cover saves are your friend.

If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

@Thunderfirecannons:
Not mobile is the killer for me.
It's a utility piece, but not everyone's cup of tea.

Sanctjud wrote:@Thunderfirecannons:
Not mobile is the killer for me.
It's a utility piece, but not everyone's cup of tea.

DoW kills it IMO. If you can't deploy it in terrain, you run a risk of losing it to a DT test if you try and move into cover. That and it has problems against Mechanized armies. Don't get me wrong, when it works it works BIG, but when it doesn't (and depending on your meta, that could be quite often) it's a waste of 100 points.

I would also put whirlwinds in the category of things that are worth considering if you already have two predators/raiders and are looking for an efficient third heavy.

By forcing opponents with 4+ or worse saves to spread out--even if there's cover--they force your enemy to play to a particular weakness even before the whirlwind actually shoots.

But indirect fire allows them to do things that even thunderfires can't do. That unit of kroot dug in on an objective completely out of sight behind the wreck? Unit of genestealers trying to sneak up on your guys by going behind that LoS-blocking mountain? One incendiary barrage hit can take em out.

Just get some tactical squads and whatever else you want, infantry is the backbone of any Space Marine army.

The biggest thing to remember with the Thunderfire is it's 60" range. So it doesn't need mobility, just a decent place on the board.

Dawn of War isn't that big of a deal either because, you just move on turn one and fire every other turn.

Long range + true line of sight + a cover save ignoring shell = effectiveness.

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true? Can you make it imposaible to assault the unit?

What if the theme is mobility?
What if having a static piece works against the list.
Like I said, it's a taste issue.

It's nice to have the cool rounds, but I don't regard it very highly. In addition, it just don't look very 'Space Marine'.

If your theme is mobility then it doesn't work.

But my argument wasn't theme but effectiveness in a competitive environment.

Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Commandment 4 is always true, see above

Thunderfire cannons are very useful in appoclypse, but in smaller games they die very quickly

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true?

Grey Templar wrote:Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Not deploying anything at the start of the game is specialization?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jimbob2002 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:If it is a multiple-level ruin, with small-ish platforms, put the techmarine on the top level, with the gun directly underneith him. When assaulting a thunderfire you ignore the gun and must reach the techmarine, but the unit must stay out of the 1" bubble before the assault phase, so with the size of the gun you can prevent the enemy from assaulting at all unless they roll a 6. (or make it impossible to assault at all, if the gun takes up the entire platform)

Is this true?

It's technically true according to the rules, that if you can't get into btb contact because a model takes up the whole surface of an elevated platform and doesn't allow anything else up there, no assault can happen.

But most people I know would never play it that way. The most common way to handle it in practice is if they roll high enough on the terrain roll, assume the models are in base-to-base even though there's no physical room to position it up there.

KK, thanks flavius

@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

If he doesn't see your list, he'll see your army on it's carry tray and know you have DPs in which case he'll know unless you keep them sealed in a case. Plus, that kind of a d-bag thing to do.

Grey Templar wrote:@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

Well, tournaments vary, although I can say that in 10 years I've never played at a tournament or store that wasn't open-list, and either way, I've never played at a tournament where I didn't know what everybody had brought after the first round (the lunchtime gossip).

But I suppose if you were playing in the first round of a hidden-list tournament *and* kept your models in the bag *and* got second turn, you could pull the drop pod surprise assault.

Still seems like too rare a possibility to build a list around, though.

Grey Templar wrote:Commandment 3 is wrong

Why?
take 3 tac squads in pods with locator beacons for troops. have two dreds(any kind) in pods. have the dreds and one squad come in on turn one via DP assault. have assault marines(with a Jpack chappie) and terminators in reserve.
Deep strike in subsequent turns on target 100% of the time
weapons options depend on situation
no heavy weapons on tacs

Hint; this can be countered, but it takes some specilization on the part of the opponent

Commandment 4 is always true, see above

Thunderfire cannons are very useful in appoclypse, but in smaller games they die very quickly

Tac squads cannot take locator beacons. They can tale teleport homers, and Pods cannot teleport.

Grey Templar wrote:@flavius

In a tournament you don't have to show your list, and in friendly games either for that matter.

if your opponent dosn't know you have DPs he will have a more difficult time countering.

Your area may be drastically different, but from my experience, its standard for tournaments to require you to show your list ahead of time. This means that winning is more about being a good player, and less about having dirty tricks.

i specifically said the pods have the beacons

were i play we arn't required to show your list. normally we have a disinterested third party examine lists for leagality(normally whoever is standing at the table next to you)

and even if your opponent knows you have pods, he has already made a list in a tourny and can't change. True he can hold things in reserve, but that will only get him so far.

On DP assault are you required to have half come down right away? or is this optional? i always come down because it normally suits me, but in certain situations (like everything opposing in reserve) you might not want to.

My mistake.

And yes, on DP assault, its always half rounded up on turn 1, no choice.

Grey Templar wrote:
and even if your opponent knows you have pods, he has already made a list in a tourny and can't change. True he can hold things in reserve, but that will only get him so far.

This is basic drop pod defense version 1, Grey. If your opponent has a lot of pods, (1) try to make him go first and (2) don't deploy anything. So he's dropping half his pods (rounded up) on an empty table without knowing where the fight is going to be, then when your units come in he's stranded and you have the initiative. You get the first shot, can melta the dreads and stand off or assault or whatever your army's advantage is, and it doesn't matter if the opponent's later drops or teleports come in within 6" of the pods that are there with no scatter because you already control mobility on the table. Any list can do it, but versus any mech list--especially Eldar, but also marines, chaos marines and Tau--all podding is lose because the pods strand their transported units without knowing where the enemy will be.

Version 2 of drop pod defense is the one with cheap bubble-wrap units that make the pods land outside of melta range from the more valuable stuff. That one is for specialized armies.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and even if your opponent knows you have pods, he has already made a list in a tourny and can't change. True he can hold things in reserve, but that will only get him so far.

This is basic drop pod defense version 1, Grey. If your opponent has a lot of pods, (1) try to make him go first and (2) don't deploy anything. So he's dropping half his pods (rounded up) on an empty table without knowing where the fight is going to be, then when your units come in he's stranded and you have the initiative. You get the first shot, can melta the dreads and stand off or assault or whatever your army's advantage is, and it doesn't matter if the opponent's later drops or teleports come in within 6" of the pods that are there with no scatter because you already control mobility on the table. Any list can do it, but versus any mech list--especially Eldar, but also marines, chaos marines and Tau--all podding is lose because the pods strand their transported units without knowing where the enemy will be.

Version 2 of drop pod defense is the one with cheap bubble-wrap units that make the pods land outside of melta range from the more valuable stuff. That one is for specialized armies.

Yep, that exact technique is how pure drop pod armies tend to fall off the top tables...

There is an answer, and its not perfect, but you can run pure pods if you do it right.

Basically, you need an equal number of "duds" as you have 'striker' pods. If your opponent plays the reserve game, then you send in your duds. with the strikers still in position in reserve to get their first hit. My favorite duds have long range heavy weapons, or are deisigned to be empty pods, you land and get into position to fire when they arrive.

Here is an example list of a 'safer' iron hands list. Optimized so that you can stand a chance against a reserver.

Master of the forge with conversion beamer

ironclad w/ drop pod

ironclad w/ drop pod

ironclad w/ drop pod

10x tactical squad missile launcher meltagun w/ drop pod

10x tactical squad missile launcher meltagun w/ drop pod

ironclad w/ drop pod

thunderfire cannon w/ drop pod

thunderfire cannon w/ drop pod


The idea is if they has tons of move or fire, he'll have to deploy on table, or if he doesn't trust his reserves he'll start on table, you'll know that before you have to pick which pods assault. I would always deploy my thunderfire cannons and probably one tac squad with the master of the forge in fortified ruins if i could get them, then if my opponent was deployed on table i'd call down 4 ironclads. If he was reserved then I'd call down my other tac squad in pod. and combat squad near an objective, drop the empty tac squad and thunderfire drop pods right on top of objectives, and hold all of my ironclads back. This way the have a much higher likelihood of arriving when there is something on the table to hurt.

If you don't use this method, and load 200 points of hurt into each of your drop pods, you are going to get dismantled by an reservers (most mech armies or relentless heavy weapon armies can and will reserve)

I agree 100% with Shep and Flavius Infernus. Reserves and Drop Pod assault really knocked pure drop armies down a peg, because pure Drop Pods require the ability to react to your opponent to be effective (because once they land you are stuck).

Since it is so easy for your opponent to react to you, and since Drop Pods offer very little protection for the guys inside, that is why #3 exists.

If you want a lot of Pods, the magic number is three, and two of those carry dreadnoughts.

Only times i run "pure pods" regularly is in appoclypse.

One tactic for regular games for pods, when my opponent plays the reserve game I "Castle up"

Drop pods with non mobile ranged units first(Devs, Tacsquads, Las/missile dreds, Tfire cannons) in the center using pods for cover.

he comes in piece meal(unless he rolls awsome for reserves)

Hammer units(ironclads, assault squads, Termies) come in on target closer to him. they can move and hang out near his board edge and take him out as he comes on.

In most games I don't run all pods but i do it occasionally like this.

I kept winning till the only opponent willing to play me was a flying circus Eldar army. (who always wins ) now i switch around styles

The trick to the awesomeness of the Thunderfire is in the Drop pod for it, that way even in DOW you can get it in a good position.

my friend uses drop pods mostly for lane blockage, placing them in empty in key spots to block in vehicle movement. this gives your opponents light anti-tank weapons target saturation, shoot the things blocking my land raider filled with assault terminators, or shoot the thunderfire....

No one has mentioned jump pack assault marines. What's your take on them?

Is 'no' enough?
Well, they are decent at what they do, but what they do is pretty lacklustre, and there is competition in the FA slots (Attack Bikes, Speeders).

I don't like assault marines, they are not that flexible and are not that great in combat, which is what they are kitted for.

Maybe with Shrike they are more useful, but even then...they still end up as a disruption unit.

Assault marines are better if you get rid of the packs, and put them in a rhino.
If you take 5 marines you in theory get a rhino for about 10 points. And they have an advantage over tac squads in that even that 5 man squad can get a flamer

This is fantastic if you play blood angels, as assault squads are Troops for them.
That is a whole lot of cheap armour.

Most people use assault marines incorrectly!

The seven commandments of assault marines.

1: thou shall never deep strike without a locator beacon

2: thou shall take plasma against MEQs, and flamers against hordes

3: If thou gives thine sergeant a Fist thou shall give him a storm shield

4: thou shall ALWAYS hide behind cover on the advance

5: thou shall never assault terminators or any similer units

6: thou shall remember the mission(This applies to all games )

7: if playing objectives thou shall use assault marines as meat shields

OK. I've got a full 10 men assault squad with power fist and storm shield on the Sargent, along with a chaplain with jump pack. The whole thing comes to 345 points. What would be a better alternative?

The rest of the list is posted in the army list section here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267071.page

That is a great unit, just like mine.

Naturally avoid things with high initive and power weapons(banshies), or things with with MEQ saves

The storm shield comes into its own when the squad has been whiped out.

Against T'au i run this unit and never fail, only 2 or three assault marines make it through the barrage.

But thats ok, because thats all you need.

had my sergeant and one marine chew through a Shas'o, 2 bodyguard, 12 firewarriors and 3 stealth suits

never used it against orks, but flamers should work good and always, Always get the charge.

Flamers on orks and getting the charge don't always go hand in hand.

...there is a down side to being 'too good' at taking out a portion of an enemy unit.

Most people use assault marines incorrectly!

The seven commandments of assault marines.

1: thou shall never deep strike without a locator beacon

Sometimes you have to, however I often opt not to deepstrike at all, as they are sitting ducks on the turn they drop down.

2: thou shall take plasma against MEQs, and flamers against hordes

And what if you don't know which army you go up against? Flamers are better in general versus 'anything that might come'

3: If thou gives thine sergeant a Fist thou shall give him a storm shield

I'm just gonna go and say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo-ooooo on this one.
They can't pick your sergeant out in shooting or close combat (except some rare units).
I think its always better putting armor ignoring attacks on a random marine instead. Yes he will die, but thats just a normal guy, why risk your best model in the squad on a 3+ dice? And even lose more points if he dies?
If you get so many armor ignoring attacks that you HAVE to put it on your sergeant, something has gone dead wrong and you're screwed no matter what shield you bring.

4: thou shall ALWAYS hide behind cover on the advance

Yep, but remember to move and not just hide

5: thou shall never assault terminators or any similer units

Yeah, you'll want to assault the weaker assault units, as they are in no way as elite as they'd need to be to go after nobz or terminators etc.

6: thou shall remember the mission(This applies to all games )

Yup, sadly many players forget this.

7: if playing objectives thou shall use assault marines as meat shields

I'd use my marines to speed over and contest/harass the opponents objective.
Marines generally don't need "meatshields" as you need to block los totally to make the enemy unable to fire on the squad. And the cover save is only useful against ap 3 or other weapons like that.
I think you're wasting a lot of points to use them as meatshields.


These are all just my opinions!

SupierioR said this about the sergeant

I'm just gonna go and say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo-ooooo on this one.
They can't pick your sergeant out in shooting or close combat (except some rare units).
I think its always better putting armor ignoring attacks on a random marine instead. Yes he will die, but thats just a normal guy, why risk your best model in the squad on a 3+ dice? And even lose more points if he dies?
If you get so many armor ignoring attacks that you HAVE to put it on your sergeant, something has gone dead wrong and you're screwed no matter what shield you bring.

Did you see my last post?

I said why i take the SS.

it is for when the sergeant is inevitiably by himself.

You could take a power weapon instead of a fist, but since i play against eldar alot initive dosen't matter

I never put power wounds on him unless i have to

It allows him to keep killing things, with a decent chance of surviving.


AND by meat shields i meant exactly what you said.

other players seem to have an irrational fear of assault marines.

Fear is a weapon wise generals use well.

they will kill assault marines when they could have killed the terminators advancing on the right.

if they kill the termies the assault marines will kill them

Nope missed your last post, my bad

Still don't think its worth the high price just in those cases where he would be the last man alive and still would do some good.

And if thats what you meant by the meat shield part Nice then we're in agreement

One of the best parts of this game is people playing differently, if everyone would run the same lists and tactics it would get extremely boring fast

Good thread. What about armies with drop pods and rhinos/razorbacks, a mix?

A mix is good, it balances out each others pros and cons.
Basically pods make a 'beachhead', rhinos move in to support the pods, (optional) razors in slower speed longer ranged support.

Will wrote:OK. I've got a full 10 men assault squad with power fist and storm shield on the Sargent, along with a chaplain with jump pack. The whole thing comes to 345 points. What would be a better alternative?

The rest of the list is posted in the army list section here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267071.page

How about 8 assault termies?

345 points? You cannot be serious...

Another topic worth discussion are wether SM are an easy army to play.

I feel you have to determine what is meant by 'play'.
SM are easy to do reasonably well in, the codex can be quite safe.
Yet SM are harder to do very well in. I think there are two main reasons for this: firstly all units can do many things, but should really only do one thing well, and beginner players usually struggle with this concept, thus they tend to just throw the closest unit at the target, which can work with SM, but very often doesnt. Secondly, most metagames around the world are highly inclusive of SM, and most enemies know how to face them, and their list likely contains mechanisms of dealing with the MEQ.
If a marine player can overcome these two main set-backs, a truly strong force can be produced -As the
SM codex literally has so many options.

Thats just what i feel anyway.

Adielubbe hits i right on the button

SMs are really easy to play, but there is a major temptation for players to have a diverse force that can play any armie but not trounce anything. Jack o all trades master of none.

This is the army most space marine players play and consequently all players know how to beat.


This also means when a space marine player specilizes the opposing player may not know what to do.

SMs when played to the Max are an extreamly tough army to beat.

its when a Gunline army spends points on some bikes for the bikes sake that SMs fail to win.

SMs can specilize in any field. we must remember and do that to the situation

imweasel wrote:

Will wrote:OK. I've got a full 10 men assault squad with power fist and storm shield on the Sargent, along with a chaplain with jump pack. The whole thing comes to 345 points. What would be a better alternative?

The rest of the list is posted in the army list section here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267071.page

How about 8 assault termies?

345 points? You cannot be serious...

Chaplin with jump pack is 115, 10 assault marine is 190, Sarge has power fist, 25, storm shield 15, so yeah the whole thing is 345. You can argue that the shield is a waste of points, so instead I can take a flamer for 10, and a melta bomb for 5, so it is still 345 for 11 models.

An alternative I'm considering is a captain with bike and relic blade for and five bikers with 2 melta guns. It's about the same points, but gives me another scoring unit...

How about:
5 Assualt Termies
1 Libby in TDA with SS, with Null zone and anything (preferably GOI or VOD)
-340 points

I would choose that over the squads you mentioned any day of the week...

Will wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Will wrote:OK. I've got a full 10 men assault squad with power fist and storm shield on the Sargent, along with a chaplain with jump pack. The whole thing comes to 345 points. What would be a better alternative?

The rest of the list is posted in the army list section here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267071.page

How about 8 assault termies?

345 points? You cannot be serious...

Chaplin with jump pack is 115, 10 assault marine is 190, Sarge has power fist, 25, storm shield 15, so yeah the whole thing is 345. You can argue that the shield is a waste of points, so instead I can take a flamer for 10, and a melta bomb for 5, so it is still 345 for 11 models.

An alternative I'm considering is a captain with bike and relic blade for and five bikers with 2 melta guns. It's about the same points, but gives me another scoring unit...

You don't spend 345pts on 11 guys in power armor. Period. Anything is probably a better alternative than this, including not spending the 345pts and playing at a lower point level.

A pred maybe? They can do lots ofdamage depending on what you give them, just don't mix and match.

Predators are a great buy.

You can take out infantry and light vehicles with a Destructor.

The Annilator can pop tanks more reliably than a devestator squad.

Never mix and match sponsons

Assault marines can be fun, especially if you're the type to rotate units just for the fun of it (which IMHO is what Warhammer is about). It can't be just create a crazy killing machine designed to win tournaments. If the terrain will allow it, they can last enough for you to do something useful with them.

In my opinion though, In a competitive setting though they just sink too many points for something that can be done better by something else, be it anti-horde, anti-mech, or assault. 345pts is just too much for for something with a 3+ save even with a Chaplain. That's like the entire points total of a heavy or specialized slot. I sold my marines a few months ago but back then I would usually use them for casual games or for teaching newbies just so they have an idea of what a jump infantry is. But whatever the race, whatever the army, if they want to compete, I would usually tell them that 3+ just doesn't cut it with the amount of shooting nowadays (in the 90s or early 2k maybe). I told chaos players from my area to drop the lash-prince and go for the lash-sorcerer on a rhino (now they lasts till end game), told Tyranid players with heavy fexes not to leave home with their 2+ save, I even gunned down 2 Wraithlords with devourers just to show em what I mean... There just too much shooting going on.

@dpaul: I assume you mean Vanguard Marines and not Assault marines when you are talking about points. No AM squad is 345, while Vanguard definitely can be. Either that or your codex was all sorts of messed up...

JEB_Stuart wrote:@dpaul: I assume you mean Vanguard Marines and not Assault marines when you are talking about points. No AM squad is 345, while Vanguard definitely can be. Either that or your codex was all sorts of messed up...

I'm just going with what they said (check up top). It includes a chaplain but still 3+ save (edited previous post accordingly). Sorry for not clarifying. Still wouldn't use it in a tournament though but that's just my take.

I wonder if anyone has found a use for the Land Speeder storm, and the jamming beacon that goes with it, I'd think if space marines were truly a shooty army you'd see more of these.

LSSs are fun and i use them in a 1500 point list of mine.

Every thing in that list can deep strike.

5 scouts in a LSS

2 tac squads with DPs

1 IC dred in DP

1 assault squad and a Jpack chaplain

1 terminator squad

I use the LSS to deliver the Assault(CCWs and BPs) scout squad. A nice relatively cheap platform for what it does.

Only problem is it uses a FA slot. I only run Assault marines and VERY rarely a bike squad so it doesn't affect me as much.

Would i use it in tourney. maybe. if i took 3 and each had a assault scout squad in them.

Other then its transport capacity and the fact that its Open-topped. It is another LS.