This is something I've thought about for a long time and posted about in other threads. But I think it's about time that this became it's own discussion.

It seems to me that by the end of the Horus Heresy Rogal Dorn was fairly ripe for falling to Chaos. I honestly think that he was teetering pretty close to the edge when he nearly went to war over the Codex Astartes. Actually, I think that he broke down at that moment. The trauma of "losing" the Emperor must have been a terrible blow to the sanity of this ultra-loyalist. And that was merely the final blow of a long and ideal-shattering war against fully half of his own brother Primarchs. When Guilliman demanded that he surrender his Legion, the only tie he retained to the glorious dreams of the Great Crusade, he was willing for a time to stand against the remaining loyalists and tear the galaxy apart again--and this after he attempted to lead the Imperial Fists into a penitential suicide against the Iron Warriors. These events, had they transpired, may very well have been enough to finally undo the already crippled Imeprium. At the last moment, Dorn backed down and accepted Guilliman's Codex therey averting disaster. But what price did he pay?

In my view, the man who was Dorn died in that acquiescence. To be more precise, I think he divided his own personality up into the post-Second Founding chapters. For himself, he kept only his total and uncompromising loyalty to the Emperor, which remains the signal feature of the Imperial Fists. He funneled the aspirations he once held for the future of Mankind into the character of the noble Crimson Fists. But he poured the dark and raging aspect of himself, his burning hatred for the traitors and his icy resentment toward Guilliman, into the Black Templars. Of all the active Space Marine formations, the Black Templars most resemble a pre-heresy legion. Specifically, they most resemble what the Seventh Legion was like . . . except stripped of any hint of the optimism and idealism of the Great Crusade. Ironically, the Black Templars represent the antithesis of what the Emperor and his loyal servant Dorn set out to accomplish on the Great Crusade. They embody endless war waged with the zeal of religious fanaticism, the abandonment of all hope. I think the innermost source of their hatred is self-loathing born of the knowledge that their inception lies in the fall of their progenitor--the knowledge that Dorn was only able to save himself by sacrificing himself and splitting whatever they once were as a part of him out of his being. They are his best loved but most unlovely children, the ones who most resemble he who hates and fears himself. They are orphans of a father that abandoned them out of a love so intense that it became indistinguishable from hate, or perhaps vice versa, and in that same act abandoned himself.

How easily might the Templars fall to Chaos if they ever gave so much as an inch to the temptation of the Warp? I would bet it'd make the Word Bearers blush.

I dont see them fallin right in to choas cause they despise pykers so much that they kill them on sight if possible. With out pykers to open the warp and provide a way for deamons to get at the Templars minds i dont see them goin. Khrone would be the prime canidate to corupt them but they hate pykers so much i dont see it happening.

That's kind of my point, Orkfantic. The BT hate the psykers so much because they know they can't deal with the temptation in any way but by waging absolute war against them.

Honestly I could see them falling, all they'd need is a push in the right direction. I don't even think it would need to be that strong of a push, they are at the peak of zealousness, almost to the teetering point of breaking and going over the edge. How they'd act after the fall I don't know, I'm not sure they'd fall in with the other legions. Perhaps they'd just set out to end everything.

I agree entirely, Stynier. My first inclination is that they'd go all Word Bearer but nihilism would be the more likely outcome. These guys seem poised to set off the next heresy. After all, they're already totally insane.

Despite the fact that they're teetering, I don't think that anything internal would be quite enough to tip them over. It's almost as if their very fanaticism is what they are desperately clinging to as their life line. And they know it. Should they go over too far, I think the result would be tearing themselves apart, more of an implosion; they may take a few chapters and planets down with them, but it would not be a fall to true chaos as much as sheer annihilation. Any survivors would likely be emotionally crippled and either fight like wild beasts and be killed by brother astartes from other chapters, or so completely numb that they wouldn't resist as they were led off, likely by the =I= but possibly another chapter (they seem to have the whole 'better to be imprisoned by your brothers than end up in such a state' mentality, I've noticed).

It strikes me in a way similar to Batman; he knows that he's on the edge, and that he's only a step from falling. If he gives in and kills, he won't be able to stop himself.


As for what could trigger the collapse of the Black Templars... well, should the Emperor die they almost certainly would. If there is another civil war similar to the Horus Heresy they would possibly do so to, or otherwise fling themselves in the way in a suicide mission (ala the Iron Cage). If someone tried forcefully reigning them in, trying to curb their fanatic tendancies, that could work too. I suspect that if something managed to destroy their brother chapters (Crimson and Imperial Fists) they may end up on a roaring rampage of revenge, firmly believing that they are doing the right thing and completely uncaring of collateral damage (how did they react to the Crimson Fists nearly getting wiped out? Is it actually stated anywhere?) Actually... I think that 'we are doing the right thing and you should not get in our way or we will destroy you' attitude is key. If chaos can get them along a path where they are thinking that, with the result being destruction, they're doomed. Think the Maelstrom incident.

Good Batman analogy, M. I like your image of other Astartes needing to take them down. Who could do the job? Well, it'd take Superman to reign in Batman but I don't think the Ultramarines would be up to the task. Seems to me it'd be Space Wolves or no one. Especially now that we're finding out Empra set up the Wolves to hunt out renegade Astartes. No doubt, Fists would try.

I don't think the Emperor's death would be enough. Their fanaticism has sped up enough in the last ten thousand years to be moving on its own momentum by this point. Your other scenarios leave me similarly unmoved (although their reaction to the CFs' plight would be interesting--my bet is they didn't care). I think it would take an internal heresy, something like what the Inquisition has to deal with in their "radicals."

I doubt it.

Whilst your points make sense, I believe that the Black Templars hold their faith closer than anything else. So angry and broken by the loss of the Emperor are they that they hold on to the ideals of the crusade, in order to keep themselves from falling apart into raging mad lunatics.

You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

I dont think so either. I mean to be dumb enough to do the same thing for thousands of years after the HH when its the fashionable thing to sit in a fotress monastry and get shot at. Nah seriously though I'm certain they're faithful. I mean they dont have any gifts from chaos or anything. So despite your well thought out and interesting points, they are not chaos manipulated or anything

Seems we need to save mr Manchu from this chaos influence he was exposed to....


The Templars arent at the edge.
They are far from it. Their faith protects them. As was shown in the heresy, faith in the emperor may even allow a
normal human to repell demons.
Crusading " knights in space" will never fall.

Maybe one is jealous since this " wolf of fenris " incident?

Back on topic.
Dorn founded the templars from his most loyal warriors.
Did you read codex BT or are you just assuming from general fluff?

The BT still rampage through the galaxy, hunting down heretics and traitors, killing of the filthy xenos.
There is nothing in the Imperial hierarchy that controls them. Administratum doesnt even have their numbers.
So who should corrupt them? Officials? Psykers? None of them have anything to say......

Why should a Templar turn? Its already his job to fight and die. There is nothing to gain from the warp.
Still funny how some believe its a worthy goal to change sides.

The BT are fanatics. But nothing hints at them beiing dumb.
Pure hate
Pure rage
Faith in our glorious lord

and payloads of annihilated traitors , heretics and whitches plaster their path....

Sometimes even the most puritanical of Inquisitors falls into the folly of attempting to turn the power of the Archenemy against itself. As usual, 1hadhq, your faith makes you blind to the true dangers of Chaos and therefore all the more vulnerable . . . just as the Templars might also be if they ever slipped even but a little from their total prohibition of the use of psychic powers. One only need look to the organization of the Templars (yes, I have read their Codex) to notice their heterodox tendencies. Rather than submitting to the Codex, which has overhwelmingly preserved the loyalty of the Astartes for ten thousand years, the BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

Manchu wrote:You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

Certainly.

They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

1hadhq wrote:
The BT still rampage through the galaxy, hunting down heretics and traitors, killing of the filthy xenos.
There is nothing in the Imperial hierarchy that controls them. Administratum doesnt even have their numbers.
So who should corrupt them? Officials? Psykers? None of them have anything to say......

Funny, I thought that was exactly what the Great Crusade did... except there, at least, the Emperor could reign the Astartes in (mostly).

Manchu wrote:The BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

This is interesting. They are blatantly worshiping the Emperor, while most revere him as their ultimate father and the perfect warrior. Funny, the Word Bearers did the same thing...

Cryonicleech wrote:They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

I agree with this, for the most part. I don't think they'd go straight to chaos. I'm not entirely sure they'd end up going to chaos at all, at least not as a cohesive whole. Destroying anything and everything around them, including the chapters rushed there to stop them? Definitely. It would be suicide by cop, they'd be unable to destroy themselves, they'd force others to do it for them and possibly welcome the relief. Almost as a last act of penance.

@Morgrim & Cryonicleech: You don't have to embrace Chaos to fall to it (that seems to be my old nemesis 1hadhq's assumption). Consider, for example, the Thousand Sons, the Alpha Legion, or more recently the Soul Drinkers . . .

True, true.

But what the Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and to some extent Soul Drinkers did was go against the Emperor. Over time, they learned to embrace and accept Chaos.

But the Black Templar would not accept Chaos. They wouldn't even fall to it. Merely, the accumulated anger and grief of the chapter would force them to end their lives, so stricken with grief and rage that they would just kill themselves, no longer willing to bear the great duty and shame they do. They wouldn't fight for their own survival, in fact, they would actively go forth to end their existence.

The Templars are simply that- Templars. Their fanatacism and zeal, I deem, would simply cause a blue screen of death for them, should the 'accepted norm' of a galaxy of slaughter in the name of the Emperor stop, for any reason. Even if the Emperor himself sat back up, I reckon they would have immense trouble adapting their sheer bloodlust.

but that's my humble opinion. These are the guys who simply charge when they lose a squad member- not even Orks are quite that mad. These guys are only half a step away from being Khorne Berserkers, in that sense. Do keep in mind the Emperor never wanted to be deified, or really even revered, and only faith keeps them strong, and if that were removed....

Manchu wrote:Sometimes even the most puritanical of Inquisitors falls into the folly of attempting to turn the power of the Archenemy against itself. As usual, 1hadhq, your faith makes you blind to the true dangers of Chaos and therefore all the more vulnerable . . . just as the Templars might also be if they ever slipped even but a little from their total prohibition of the use of psychic powers. One only need look to the organization of the Templars (yes, I have read their Codex) to notice their heterodox tendencies. Rather than submitting to the Codex, which has overhwelmingly preserved the loyalty of the Astartes for ten thousand years, the BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

I am not blind ( but remember justitia ....) Instead walking in the emperors light spares you from stumbling and falling...
So no, they know the dangers of chaos since they have seen them at the palace gates of terra itself.
Sadly have to see you falling to the lies of the "twisted word bearers", a crusade has nothing to do with personal
redemption in case of the BT. They follow their orders, given by their primarch.
And the false assumption, codex gullymansis would save anyone, youre wrong on this. Most renegades are
former codexlovers... Will be funny when GW finally reveals the UM as the real enemy.

Where was I?
Oh, Dark angels. There common usage of robes may hint on some self-hate ( does this word exist?),
but they are still loyal ( a bit xenophobic too ) and will not fall because they know the face of the archenemy now.
Against the naive Lion, maybe a small chance to ruin the legion was there, but things have changed.

Again, the truth prevails over the lies of the twisted word bearers.

Plus when our ( yes, you cant leave his service Manchu.... ) emperor willl finally rise again ( read my sig )
those mislead to venerate him as a god still find his mercy and will be allowed to spent their lives in battle.

Manchu wrote:@Morgrim & Cryonicleech: You don't have to embrace Chaos to fall to it (that seems to be my old nemesis 1hadhq's assumption). Consider, for example, the Thousand Sons, the Alpha Legion, or more recently the Soul Drinkers . . .

old nemesis....what? I am not that old....

And I do not hunt you down ( as a Nemesis would ), just attempting to save your soul.
Where is EF to help me a bit here?

Choas needs your consent to get you. May be forgotten in the age of strife but still.. refute it and chaos has no power. Magnus did embrace choas, the alphas did never know whats going on and the soul drinkers were doomed
by their former librarian...no resistance equals commencing defeat.

Chaos certainly does not need your consent, only your weakness. That's why untrained psykers are so dangerous. They don't "let" the daemons through--the daemons rip through them without ever having to ask, if their minds are not strong enough.

AS for serving the Emperor, my heart first and foremost always belongs to His Divine Majesty, His beloved daughters, and the mighty Sky Warriors of Fenris. I actually despise Lorgar and the Word Bearers but I think you almost need to despise them to really get a good feeling for playing them enjoyably at the casual level. They're despicable bad guys after all. There's nothing to love about them, although plenty that's grotesquely facinating.

Back on-topic, my thesis regarding the Black Templars is that they are the darkest legacy of Rogal Dorn. They represent his struggle with his deepest and most dreadful temptations--the temptations that nearly led him to sacrifice his legion in suicidal penance and then to almost reignite civil war between the remaining loyalists. They remain loyal only inasmuch as they are fanatically faithful--but should that faith snap . . . they would fall upon the Imperium with all the terror of a Black Crusade. That's an ironic phrase when you think about it in this context, no? Like the Unforgiven (who remain unforgiven thanks to their own obsessive guilt, for which they are willing to disregard the needs of mankind), the Templars are keeping a nasty secret. Unlike the Dark Angels and their successors, however, not even the Templars seem aware of the secret they are keeping.

I fail to see the secret there.

The Templars are a bunch of stubborn crusaders.
( could be their heritage,or maybe the original inspiration GW has drawn from ).
They will obey every order of the emperor without any questions.
Stand firm where others falter in unswerving faith.

Only madmen snap. As said before, the zeal of the templars isn't insanity.
Would you claim the wulfen and their fury as mad enough to turn to chaos? NO?
Would you claim the blood rage of the sons of the angelic primarch as mad enough to turn? NO?
Would you claim the sisters acts of faith as madness? NO?
Sorry this "madness argument" epically fails.
Because BT aren't crazed berzerkers. They still feel the battle lust, which is inbreed into every astartes.

The geneseed effect your aiming at, is a self-sacrificial attitude.
If the impossible happens, those templars would do a fine "kamikaze" last stand.
But thats not different from a BA in the deathcompany, a SW finally turning into a wulfen completly or any other
marine moving over such point of no return line.

Again, no "ultrablack" crusade for you.

And if youre point is the emprah, something alonside "seppuku" wouldnt be hard to imagine too.

BT do not sacrifice others.

The secret is that Dorn very nearly went nuts, or actually did for a little while, and only managed to stave it off by exorcising the worst aspects of his own tortured and broken down psyche--which then became the motive force behind the Black Templars through the personalities of his most fanatically loyal and equally nutty lieutenants--preeminently Sigismund, their first High Marshal. You can't really compare Dorn's more fanatical sons to Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or even Sisters of Battle. None of these groups have ever walked the knife-edge of outright betrayal as the Imperial Fists did in the wake of the Heresy.

Sure?

Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...
Its clear that Sanguinius sons had enough braincells left to gather any troublemaker in the deathcompany..
Its a fact that no templar ever turned.....

But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

IMO, youre still wrong on the BT's motives......

Although it wasn't betrayal. It was his word against Gulliman's, and nothing there to indicate either was right. And the Imperial Fists were hardly the only ones to protest. Dorn backed down because he was still reeling from the fate of the Emperor and not being able to stop it, of not being able to help his brother Sanguinious, of not understanding just how his fallen brothers could do what they did. And possibly from having to first defile his work on the defenses of Terra and then watching them get torn down.

The Imperium was still in turmoil, and he backed down because he didn't want to make it worse and was doubting his own judgement. And then he went into a period of rather brutal self torture to lessen his feelings of guilt, and dragged the rest of his legion along with him. The founding members of the Black Templars had been through the siege of Terra, the self flagellation of the Iron Cage, and were openly admitted as being the most fanatical of the lot. It didn't have to be Dorn excising the darkest parts of his psyche. By then, the baton had already been passed, and there was little he could have done about it.

i would respectfully agree with 1hadhq. the black templars are so steadfast in their faith and the rightousness of threir cause that the would self destruct before succumbing to Chaos. a few notes:
1) the loyalty of the Alpha Legion is and unless GW Ends the 40k story arc, forever shall be up in the air.
2) Who the heck can claim what the Emperors ultimate goal was? he might have claimed to be unwilling to be deified, but i highly doubt he can complain. whos to say that wasn't all part of the plan?
back to the point: i honestly believe that in the end, the black Templars would be the last of the Astartes that would fall. they are too steadfast in their faith in the Emperor. now if His Holiness were to fall under the sway of the ruinous powers, yeah sure.

What if their fall wasn't something of their choosing, rather something forced upon them by the Inquisition, who lets be honest are more than willing to turn on the Black Templars in a heart beat. When they fall it may not be chaos worship that they fall into, but perhaps they would just become nihilistic renegades. The Imperium cares not whether you follow chaos or are just renegade they smack the same label on you.

1hadhq wrote:Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...

These are both misleading statements. The first underscores your misunderstanding of Chaos and the second . . . sometimes i don't know how you can describe yourself as a loyalist. :shakes head:

1hadhq wrote:But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

Not following the Codex is not itself a betrayal. Threatening to start a civil war in the wake of Horus Heresy over it and then deceiving others into thinking you accept it only to perpetuate the Legion system (modified to be even less controllable, of course) that was the main issue of the civil war . . . that's betrayal. That's the pride and arrogance of Rogal Dorn, embodied by the Black Templar--the chink in the armor of faith that the Ruinous Powers tirelessly seek out in the righteous. The only thing that stands between the Black Templar and their fall is their psychopathic "faith" (in what, pray tell?) that seems much, much more fragile to me than it seems to others. If Horus could fall . . . if even Dorn could nearly turn on his brothers, why do you think mere space marines--no matter what color their armor--are immune to the ravages of temptation?

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...

These are both misleading statements. The first underscores your misunderstanding of Chaos and the second . . . sometimes i don't know how you can describe yourself as a loyalist. :shakes head:

1hadhq wrote:But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

Not following the Codex is not itself a betrayal. Threatening to start a civil war in the wake of Horus Heresy over it and then deceiving others into thinking you accept it only to perpetuate the Legion system (modified to be even less controllable, of course) that was the main issue of the civil war . . . that's betrayal. That's the pride and arrogance of Rogal Dorn, embodied by the Black Templar--the chink in the armor of faith that the Ruinous Powers tirelessly seek out in the righteous. The only thing that stands between the Black Templar and their fall is their psychopathic "faith" (in what, pray tell?) that seems much, much more fragile to me than it seems to others. If Horus could fall . . . if even Dorn could nearly turn on his brothers, why do you think mere space marines--no matter what color their armor--are immune to the ravages of temptation?

Hell bent on insulting the templars much?

Lets remind our "ally" of the SW ( again, grimnar or blackheart is your liege?) that his primarch stood alongside dorn and vulkan in the debate. Dorn was a stubborn soldier, not a deceiver.
Makes me sad to watch your futile attempts to seed doubt between the loyal astartes on behalf of your insane masters from the warp.

The issue of chaos with me is, i know them. Remember, know thy enemy doesn't include join the side of the eternal loosers. Ruinous powers means just what it says, they ruin whoever joins them.

Seems i can accept the single sister that fell and also the fall of more sisters ( which i still doubt ),
and at the same time the betrayal of the space wolfs described in the choas dex, where a ship was lost
to the tyrant of badab isnt a personal offence to me even if i would deem it a lie.

OT:
I can field 800 marines at his command. And i can prove it too.
Where are all these self proclaimed loyal space wolves? Missing them in modelling&painting, super-survivor,
show off, and some other..threads.
Keep on doubting what I am....but this works both ways

BOT:
Find me a templar that turned against his brethren.

See?

A templar is a humble warrior, not a overconfident fool like horus.....
BTW, fascinating choice.

For one who fancies himself loyal you sure do take Chaos propaganda to heart. As I recall the capture of the Wolf of Fenris was entirely told from the perspective of Blackheart's men. Which would make it a one sided false truth, that a loyalist such as yourself should disregard. Maybe your jealousy of the Space Wolves accomplishments has blinded you?

BrotherStynier wrote:For one who fancies himself loyal you sure do take Chaos propaganda to heart. As I recall the capture of the Wolf of Fenris was entirely told from the perspective of Blackheart's men. Which would make it a one sided false truth, that a loyalist such as yourself should disregard. Maybe your jealousy of the Space Wolves accomplishments has blinded you?

Oh, i do accept codex fluff as canon.
Yes, the bad one too.

And which accomplishments of the hiding sons that ashame Russ should I be jealous of?

What I see here ( OP ) is a bunch of lies from a chaos follower in disguise as Space wolf.

Every loyal astartes should disregard the falsehoods of the sons of lorgar.

I take it as canon as well, yet it could still be seen as one sided propaganda.

Perhaps their part in the First War for Armageddon or the majorities, steadfast defense of humanity, particularly when others simply cast them aside.

I do not see a bunch of lies in the OP, simply known truths about Dorn and plausible speculation about his actions and what drove him after the heresy.

The Black Templars are an excessively fragile warrior-cult, and yes, if they were all isolated individually, all it would take is the proper push. But because that event is unlikely, they will tear themselves apart before that could happen. All of their misguided zeal, their loyalty, their sacrificial nature, if Tzeentch were to come along and merely push them into the belief that doing whatever he had planned would help the Emperor, Dorn, the Imperium, or the like, I have no doubt they would helplessly fall to it. Such extremes in thought brings fragility when persuaded by something you believe in. I could easily see them falling, but once they realize what has happened, they will destroy themselves. They will tear apart at the seams and fight until no one is left.

Ive always seen the Black Templar's as the space marine equivalent of flagellants. Driven by pure zeal and xenophobic rage to destroy any and everything that could be seen as a blasphemy to the emperors name. If anything were to some how gain a foothold of corruption I agree it would likely lead to infighting and a chapter civil war purge campaign. Those surviving becoming even more fanatical in their cause.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Perhaps their part in the First War for Armageddon or the majorities, steadfast defense of humanity, particularly when others simply cast them aside.

Others? The wannabe ultras ?

Armageddon? Could the first appearance of BT and sallies as standalone list at the 3rd war alongside the 13th co hint on chapters with a niche that doesn't even remotely interfere with the place of the Space wolves in 40k?

I am still disagreeing with the OP, cause the speculations contradict the fluff of the BT codex.
Reduces it to nice "what if" theories that need you to ignore canon.

1hadhq wrote:

Armageddon? Could the first appearance of BT and sallies as standalone list at the 3rd war alongside the 13th co hint on chapters with a niche that doesn't even remotely interfere with the place of the Space wolves in 40k?

I am still disagreeing with the OP, cause the speculations contradict the fluff of the BT codex.
Reduces it to nice "what if" theories that need you to ignore canon.

It may not interfere with the SW place in 40k, but perhaps there is a hint of jealousy in that they were the first to be recognized as true defenders of the people of the Imperium.

Ignore canon as GW seems to do regularly? Can't be that hard.

BrotherStynier wrote:.... true defenders of the people of the Imperium.

Isn't that title bound to the marines of ultra-ish ultra?

No those that are Ultra-ish of Ultra simply believe themselves to be the defenders of the Imperium and everything in it. To my knowledge the Wolves prefer the people to the current administration.

The difference between Dorn and Russ is that Russ never tried to plunge the Imperium into civil war when it was at its weakest. Yes, Russ rejected the Codex (and was ultimately proven correct given the instability of Canis Helix) but it never came to blows against brothers. Dorn was dangerously close to falling before he finally accepted the Codex. The Black Templars represent the part of Dorn that never accepted it, that would have torn the galaxy apart from a misguided and guilt-racked sense of "loyalty" to the Emperor. And that's what the Templars are currently doing--tearing the galaxy apart on their selfish quest to prove that they are not traitors and that no one except them is above suspicion. Sounds a bit like you, 1hadhq. The three chapters that have stayed the most loyal to the Emperor's Great Crusade vision are the Ultramarines, the Salamander, and the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves stand apart because the Emperor bred them to root out renegades among his other sons. Their loyalty is beyond question. By contrast, the question of loyalty is the sole motivation for the Black Templars. Their origin is Dorn's guilt-inspired inferiority complex and they have never shaken that off--hence the ten thousand year crusade. That wasn't ordered by the Emperor. In fact, the BT are a dangerous and unwieldy force of near-psychopaths. If they were to fall, which I think could easily happen if they ever had to deal with a Dark Angels-esque internal heresy (because they couldn't deal with it as well as the DA have--and that's pretty bad), they stand to be a greater threat than one of Abaddon's Black Crusades. You can claim that this is conjecture, and of course a lot of it is, but I think it's entirely logical.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Manchu wrote:You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

Certainly.

They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

Well, for those who may or may not remember, Horus thought he was helping the emperor (and was to such an extent that he had no idea he was using chaotic energies to do it) and before he realized it, he was bombing the gak out of terra. Their weakness comes from their strength. They are eternally bound to the emperor, and as long as they believe they are serving him, they will do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I must say that I completely agree with Manchu. Look at the crusades. The REAL ones. Pure faith in religion and 'unwavering loyalty' is what is causing people to destory their own homes TO THIS DAY from conflicts almost 1000 years old (and that's only if you're counting what's been historically proven). If you want to see a romanticized version of what happened, watch Kingdom of Heaven. The more zealous you are, the more likely you are to abuse it to get what you want. Absolute power+absolute faith= absolute corruption. The Black Templars have both.

Manchu wrote:The difference between Dorn and Russ is that Russ never tried to plunge the Imperium into civil war when it was at its weakest. Yes, Russ rejected the Codex (and was ultimately proven correct given the instability of Canis Helix) but it never came to blows against brothers.

Nice assumption but the sources arent clear what russ or vulcan did.

Manchu wrote:
Dorn was dangerously close to falling before he finally accepted the Codex. The Black Templars represent the part of Dorn that never accepted it, that would have torn the galaxy apart from a misguided and guilt-racked sense of "loyalty" to the Emperor.

Misguided loyality? Pardon me, but thats nonsense.

Manchu wrote:
And that's what the Templars are currently doing--tearing the galaxy apart on their selfish quest to prove that they are not traitors and that no one except them is above suspicion. Sounds a bit like you, 1hadhq.

You may have gotten away with some of this.

But your last line ruined it. No arguments, so start to offend?

Maybe it shall be this way.

I challenge thee to prove your loyality to the throne.
No more excuses.

Manchu wrote:
The three chapters that have stayed the most loyal to the Emperor's Great Crusade vision are the Ultramarines, the Salamander, and the Space Wolves.

First one maybe, second one surely, third one is questionable if i take our local SW actions into account.

Manchu wrote:.
The Space Wolves stand apart because the Emperor bred them to root out renegades among his other sons. Their loyalty is beyond question.

Hunting renegades? they didnt even recognize when horus turned....
Loyality is in question now. Was really fast when a dakkaite we know switched from SW to EC and then to WB....

Manchu wrote:
By contrast, the question of loyalty is the sole motivation for the Black Templars.

Once youre correct.
Its their job since Dorn ordered them to hunt down the hertic, witch and traitor.
You dont deny your Primarchs wishes.

Manchu wrote:
Their origin is Dorn's guilt-inspired inferiority complex and they have never shaken that off--hence the ten thousand year crusade. That wasn't ordered by the Emperor. In fact, the BT are a dangerous and unwieldy force of near-psychopaths. If they were to fall, which I think could easily happen if they ever had to deal with a Dark Angels-esque internal heresy (because they couldn't deal with it as well as the DA have--and that's pretty bad), they stand to be a greater threat than one of Abaddon's Black Crusades. You can claim that this is conjecture, and of course a lot of it is, but I think it's entirely logical.

Its entirely illogical.
NO heresy = no reason for internal fights.
Its more likely a SW great company mutinys and turns against the inquisition, ending the SW as "traitoris extremis"
in the eyes of the ordos. Next thing you see, is SOB, stormtroopers, IG and UM assaulting fenris....

So your next correct point is:
BT would outshine abby with ease. Thats not really a challenge to humble failbaddon and his minions.....

I kind of agree with Manchu. I could see the Black Templars causing a fight and seperating from the main imperial forces completely however I don't think they would join Chaos.

I think eventually the Templars are going to go to far. They may make the wrong decisions during a campaign that leads to huge losses or even try to attack another chapter of more likely a group of Inquisitors. They may get away with it at first as the imperium don't want to loose them but this will just make them feel like they are right so they continue until they go to far. I don't think the Black Templars will change their methods or backdown even when confronted by Imperial forces.

The thing seperating the Black Templars from other chapters is that they believe that it's their duty to the Emporer to hunt heretics and they are still on a mission set by their Primarch. While other chapters know the emporer and Primarchs want them to kill traitors and aliens none of them have such a task specifically set to them like the Templars do. These are the most zealous marines of a legion which have been a never ending job by their Primarch, they won't believe anyon has the authority to over rule the primarch so they will not listen to them.

They could easily turn on the imperium but they wouldn't view it as heresy more likely they would accuse everyone else of heresy for not doing everything in their power to kill the Traitor / Witch. Being so obsessed they wouldn't be bother hopw much damage they did as they are more interested in the idea of hunting heretics that whether it is actually helping.

@4M2A: You've hit the nail on the head.

The BT claim they answer to some higher principle of "crusading" in the name of the Emperor but their ideals do not match those of the Emperor's own Great Crusade. Whereas the Emperor strove to ensure humanity's rightful place as masters of the galaxy, the BT selfishly fight to reassure themselves that they are truly loyal. Of course, this means that they themselves recognize that their loyalty is or at least was at some point questionable. What was that point? As I have said time and again, it was the moment that Dorn could have fallen--or perhaps that moment when part of him did actually fall. The Primarch himself moved on, costing him his own original personality in my opinion and leaving him a shell of what he was before the Heresy, but in the process of saving himself he created the Black Templars. They are forever stuck in that moment, teetering on the knife-edge of corruption, and it terrifies them. Their entire existence is devoted to dealing with that fear by beating it into hatred and turning it against the galaxy.

So in fact they do not answer to any higher principles unless you count their own endless guilt as a higher principle. Much like the Dark Angels, they answer only to their own private sense of having lost their honor. And they will do anything to regain it/prove that they are loyal. Eventually, they will perceive the Imperium itself getting in the way of that--just as Dorn did when he nearly went to war with Guilliman--and each Templar will have to make his own decision--just as the Legionnaires did ten thousand years before. Will they ultimately find real redemption by sacrificing their fanatical pride for the sake of humanity or will they cling to their empty, self-serving "faith" and fall like Horrus and Magnus did . . . and as Dorn himself almost did? But remember, it was Lorgar who fell first--and it was his faith that corrupted him.

@1hadhq: In your arrogance, you dared to strike your brothers down. And so I showed you the power of Chaos that you might not underestimate it again. It seems you have learned nothing. Instead, your treacherous distortion of faith has fully ripened into blind corruption. What a pity you still have not realized that of all those who serve the Warp Gods, few even realize it and almost none do so willingly.

I'm not sure you're 100% spot on with this, of course it's not possible to be sure when you're working with such... I'll call it "interestingly diverse" material. However, the possibility that you might be right finally did something that nothing else in the history of 40k has been able to do - it made Black Templars somewhat interesting to me.

For that, Manchu, I thank you.

While I agree with Manchu's points, I'm begining to wonder if they aren't being stretched a little too far, as if there is some underlying motive...


One thing I have an issue with: why claim that it was Dorn purging his nature that led to the Black Templars acting as they do? He took the entire legion into an almost suicidal guilt wracked act of penance, the seeds would have been laid then. I'm also failing to see how he was about to put himself before the Imperium when he opposed Guilliman. On the contrary, he WAS thinking of the Imperium the whole time, he felt that the near death of the Emperor was his fault, that it was because he'd failed, and that even if they didn't say so all of the others blamed him too. So much so that he turned to harming himself in an attempt to atone. I think his moment of clarity was in backing down, because he realised that he couldn't win, the others (or at least Guilliman) wouldn't back down, and he couldn't bring himself to do anything that would harm the Imperium more than what had been done; whether it was out of a sense of duty (I am responsible for his fate, I must help hold his greatest work together) or out of a realisation that if he did cause the war to flare back up, he'd be as bad as his fallen brothers.

The moment of madness wasn't when he backed down, but in what he did afterwards. I honestly don't think he expected to survive the Iron Cage incident. I think he hoped to kill Perturbo and thus ease the burden of those that would have to fight against the fallen primachs, and perhaps felt it was a fair exchange of a life for a life. He wanted to die doing something of value, because he didn't think he'd earned the right to live.

I wonder what was said during or after to make him snap out of his suicidal tendencies. He certainly appeared to be much more stable when he was the only primach still active, although arguably still reckless.

@Shane: Thanks, I think.

OnT: I believe that the siege of the Iron Cage happened before the Codex controversy. Having been wracked with shame and guilt since the siege of Terra, Dorn started using the Pain Glove and was inspired by a "vision" (::cough cough:: Slaanesh anyone? ::cough:: ) induced by the sensations of terrific pain that he inflicted upon himself. The "vision" was that his "failure" had to be redeemed by visiting severe pain on himself and his Legion. So he trotted off to the Iron Cage and fought a single-minded campaign of attrition until the Ultramarines intervened and drove off the Iron Warriors. I'm not saying that Dorn and the Fists fought poorly in this case, only that they had ceased to care about their own casualties in a haze of madness.

Once the traitors had been driven off in to the Eye of Terror, Guilliman demanded that the surviving loyalists adopt the Codex to prevent another Horus Heresy. One can only wonder how what Gulliman witnessed at the Iron Cage influenced his insistence in this matter. In any case, Dorn--still awash in the epiphany of his penitential mission, his holy crusade of redemption--saw this in the only way that a man who believes himself dishonored sees anything: as a insult to his own character and loyalty. Gulliman was in fact saying that none of the Primarchs, even Rogal Dorn defender of Terra, could be trusted with a Legion any more. Dorn went into a frenzy, blind to the rationality of Gulliman's demands, blind to the fact that in his rage he was fulfilling Gulliman's worst fears and justifying the adoption of the Codex Astartes. In other words, he began to fall to Chaos just as the others had started to fall: believing that all they did was for the good of the Imperium, believing that others wanted to insult and destroy them out of jealousy and pride. Dorn was becoming a mirror image of Horus before the visions of Davin.

But before the Ruinous Powers could reach forth and pluck another prize of treachery, Dorn relented. It is not clear what made him change his mind. We could speculate at length, I'm sure. But what in fact happened was that Dorn's acquiescence was half-hollow. The Imperial Fists and the Crimson Fists became straight-laced Codex chapters, second only to the Ultramarines themselves in strict obedience to the dictates of the Codex. But the old guard of the VII Legion, headed by none other than Dorn's right hand man and personal protege Sigismund, formed the Black Templars. A better way to put this would be that what became the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists chapters were split off of the VII Legion. What was left over was thenceforth known as the Black Templars. The BT were not a new creation at all. They were the preservation of Dorn's madness even after he himself seemed to turn away from madness (he went with the Imperial Fists chapter). They continued and continue even today his fanatical quest of repentance, seeking redemption for the crimes he accused himself of and then accused others of also accusing him of (Gulliman, I mean).

Like I said, the BT are frozen in time. They never moved on from that moment when Dorn nearly fell. They did not make the choice, along with the man who had been their Primarch, to accept the Codex and back down from the reckless, selfish crusade. They are stuck on the precipice of their Primarch's near fall ten thousand years ago, still teetering. I am using the metaphor of schizophrenia--the divergence of Dorn's own personality--to describe what happened to him in the wake of the Heresy. It seems to me that he literally went insane. I don't know if he ever completely got over it but I am sure that the BT never have.

OffT: The "underlying motive" is non-existent. My thoughts on this matter go back for some time. You can read my first Dakka posts on this issue in this thread. The debate between 1hadhq and I goes back to his betrayal of the Space Wolves in this thread*, whereupon I unleashed the forces of Chaos to his enormous chagrin. I doubt he'll ever forgive me for summoning up the forces to wipe the floor with the remaining loyalist chapters. He also doesn't approve of me building a CSM army.

*See especially the bottom of page ten and, of course, the heretical glory of page fourteen.

Manchu wrote:
@1hadhq: In your arrogance, you dared to strike your brothers down. And so I showed you the power of Chaos that you might not underestimate it again. It seems you have learned nothing. Instead, your treacherous distortion of faith has fully ripened into blind corruption. What a pity you still have not realized that of all those who serve the Warp Gods, few even realize it and almost none do so willingly.

I'll no longer waste my time and comment on your erraneous ways to blackmail brother chapters in the name of your false gods.
Where Morgirm has it right, youre still confused with the lies of the word twisters (bearers).

And for the record, I didnt strike any brother down, instead fought your treachery.
Paint your armor grey as much as you like, i dont see a space wolf standing before me.

Manchu wrote:OffT: The "underlying motive" is non-existent. My thoughts on this matter go back for some time. You can read my first Dakka posts on this issue in this thread. The debate between 1hadhq and I goes back to his betrayal of the Space Wolves in this thread*, whereupon I unleashed the forces of Chaos to his enormous chagrin. I doubt he'll ever forgive me for summoning up the forces to wipe the floor with the remaining loyalist chapters. He also doesn't approve of me building a CSM army.

*See especially the bottom of page ten and, of course, the heretical glory of page fourteen.

Is that willingly stupid or do we need an exorcist to tear the demon out of your body?
No underlying motive?
Would laugh if it wasnt such shame for russ. Lost another son to the ruinous powers.
Your whole tactic in the mentioned thread consisted of backstabbing battlebrothers.
When i finally challenged you to show your colors, we all saw the slaneshi servant.
Whoever summons the warp, is lost to it.
Someone should have declared you "extremis diabolus", but it seems a inquisitor found a useful tool.....

PS:
When will we see those poor space wolves defend themselves? IIRC their brother space marines ( me too )
had to rescue them in the super-survivor thread several times, even filthy xenos jumped to their aid.

BOT:
Still completley wrong picture of the motives of the Imperial fists-soon to be Black Templars.
Its unknown how Dorn "snapped out of it" ?
Rather easy answer. He was never "in it". A rationale militarian like Dorn would wage the plans and make a decision.
His was against gully mans plans. He was also not alone on this. Instead of accepting the few known facts,
this thread is full of attempts to piss on the IF. Ok there already yellow, but it is still noticed.
Changing the background from stubborn marines with self-sacrificial tendencies to insane psychopaths? really?

Templars root out corruption.
A good reason for manchu to fear them........
But Templars would also kill themselves if they're the corrupted ones.
And the collateral damage they do, isn't greater than those of several other chapters.
Could be more dangerous to have the bloody angels at your side than the sons of Dorn.

There seems to be a bit of timeline confusion here.

Manchu's post implies he thinks the order was Iron Cage, Guilliman's demand, madness, relenting and splitting.

The timeline of such events was Guilliman's demand, Iron Cage (possible madness being before, after and/or during this event), relenting and splitting.

Dorn was admitted as not being quite in his right mind when he led the assault on the Iron Cage, especially since he was usually cautious and well prepared. Extensive abuse of a Pain Glove probably didn't help this. It was only after this that he split his legion. Fluff actually states that their organisation before this made splitting nearly impossible, and it was only because of the severe losses they took that this was possible. That in and of itself makes me wonder if at least part of Dorn had submitted before he publically agreed to follow the Codex Astartes. Another part may be that in his guilt, he finally came to doubt his own decisions.

The Imperial Fists are still known for being overzealous and self flagellating. It is less that they do not exhibit the same traits as the Black Templars and more that they do so to a lesser degree and will place other motivations ahead of it if the need arises.


And why am I defending the Imperium? And from Manchu no less?

As an old wolf player I still see the Black Templars as a retconned chapter created in the wake of 3rd edition to make Warhammer 40,000 more grimdark.

From what I understand behind the BT fluff, I think Manchu is on to something.

oh, and 1had, the lost companies of Space Wolves are not necesarily traitors, they are simply lost, either destroyed, stuck in the warp, or completing a quest/oath that prevents them from returning to the Fang. Temptation or desire is what leads many to chaos, and Space Wolves have everything they could ever want, a life of fighting in the heavens, walking amongst gods. How many other chapters have a company still fighting for their Primarch and the Emperor after 10,000 years in the eye of terror?

Manchu, trying to convince a Black Templar player that his army was created in the self-loathing image of a nearly traitorous Primarch is just about pointless.

Demogerg wrote:As an old wolf player I still see the Black Templars as a retconned chapter created in the wake of 3rd edition to make Warhammer 40,000 more grimdark.

OK

Possible. They started as cover of a rulebook and rised from codex armageddon and Index astartes to a
standalone force ( codex ).

Demogerg wrote:
From what I understand behind the BT fluff, I think Manchu is on to something.

He's sadly lost to the warp there....

Isn't it scary when the xeno ( Morgrim ) have the imperial fluff correct and your astartes battlebrothers not?

Demogerg wrote:
oh, and 1had, the lost companies of Space Wolves are not necessarily traitors, they are simply lost, either destroyed, stuck in the warp, or completing a quest/oath that prevents them from returning to the Fang. Temptation or desire is what leads many to chaos, and Space Wolves have everything they could ever want, a life of fighting in the heavens, walking amongst gods. How many other chapters have a company still fighting for their Primarch and the Emperor after 10,000 years in the eye of terror?

Didn't a former GW rulesdesigner ( one i dont miss ) dig at the wolves with a crappy piece of "renegade space wolves" fluff?
Is there any "renegade" BT ever?
Is there a "wolf brother" in dark sky black sun, refuting the chance to repent?


Most sons of russ may be loyal, my point is their interest at personal glory ( sagas ).
A templar doesnt care if he dies, or if someone notices it.
A space wolf would still want one to survive to tell his saga....

So the Templar has all he needs from the beginning.
The space wolf still needs success to create a saga.

Makes the difference. The total grimdark Templar, and the less grimdark space wolf.
One asking for total destruction of his enemys. The other on a quest to achieve destruction of his enemys alongside of his primary goal.

Both come from a different experience of the heresy.
The templar fought at the palace and faced off the traitors. Still didnt manage to protect the emprah ( but i doubt this was possible, if it was, his custodes would have achieved it ).
The space wolf fought at prospero and kicked magnus over to chaos.
Ran into the alphas next and didnt make it to the party in time.

Both primarchs hunted down traitors after the siege.

Russ didnt change his course and is still at it? Refuted the codex and still not called traitor?
Dorn did a full stop, sent part of his Legion to hunt the traitors whilst adopting to G-mans plans.

So i dont criticize the space wolves, but Manchu's double standards.

Either every primarch refuting G-man was deemed traitor or none of the 3 .

Plus, sending space marines on a crusade to repent isnt unheard of. Its part of the codex.
Even a great wolf could do this if some of his marines fail in their duty.

But Dorn didnt sent his men to repent. He ordered them to annihilate the traitor, heretic and mutant/psyker.

Not really different from SoB.... are they also on the edge?

Rather not. Cause faith protects.

Demogerg wrote:
Manchu, trying to convince a Black Templar player that his army was created in the self-loathing image of a nearly traitorous Primarch is just about pointless.

Most of the loyal primarchs had a lot to think of, but none fell.

Templars doesn't hate themself, their hate is exclusively spared for those opposing the Emperor.

Sadly, this makes them vulnerable to backstabbing from brother space marines ...

Interesting side note about Space Wolves... they can open fire on the Inquisition for being jackasses, and still not be labeled heretics because they are that badass.
/flex


welcome to Dakkadakka, where there are enough vehemit Space Wolf fanbois to turn any thread into a Space Wolf oriented one.

Sorry, the space wolves were my fault. May i redirect a thread to russ if i am not a fanboi too?

1hadhq wrote:
He's sadly lost to the warp there....

Isn't it scary when the xeno ( Morgrim ) have the imperial fluff correct and your astartes battlebrothers not?

Believe me, I know the irony. Can I chalk it up to knowing your enemy, or do I have to admit it's because I've run from enough Inquisitors, SM, SoB, commissars and general Imperium to have to learn fast to keep one step ahead? (Or at least one step to the side and knowing how to pick a lock before they get you to a proper jail cell.)


On a less joking around note, fluff is something I do find interesting, and I'll admit little to no interest in many of the HH books, I still enjoy the distilled information that has come out of them. I also like seeing just how far the fluff can be pushed and what interesting conclusions could be drawn, even if I know damn well that it is impossible or clearly didn't happen. I like 'what if' scenarios. <.< My friends and I had a highly entertaining 'what if' discussion about what may have happened on the battle barge between two brothers, and how interesting it was that they spent the whole time attempting to persuade the other; warriors of that caliber are unlike to meet, have a chance to strike a single blow, and then be dying/just dead when the Emperor appears, considering how long it appeared to take. It is incredibly well known what the final, broad strokes of such actions were (I'm hoping that the BL fills in the minor blanks at some point, there are some odd occurrences there), but still interesting to think about what may have happened if one weakened enough to at least partially agree with the other.

And now I'll stop derailing...

I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning. As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning. As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.

Manchu wrote:I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning.

Then start to admit youre wrong.
Cause all your evidence contradicts the Index astartes article about the imperial fists and their primarch.
IA II, page 12-17.

Timeline:

- siege of the imperial palace,
- Dorn follows the emprah at the final confrontation with horus but gets split from him. Returns emprah to terra.
- Dorn and other loyal primarchs hunt the fleeing traitors. Mercilessly slaughtering them and levelling their fortresses.
- Gullyman Rebuilds the imperium.
- Gully man calls Dorn back and informs him (and the other primarchs) about his plans to split the legios.
- Iron warriors challenge the imperial fists to storm their "iron cage".
- Dorns knows he got too many veterans that cannot accept the changes after heresy ( loss of the emprah,
splitting the legios) and decides to accept the challenge. Storms seeing the trap still the IW stronghold
to claim perturabos ass.
- Gullyman pulls Dorn out of the IW trap, since killing perturabo is less important than Dorns survival.
- The fists reorganise the next 20 years to become fully codex compliant.
- the crimson fists as relative new memebrs of the fists adopted the codex.
- the black templars, collected the veterans and kept on with the crusade.

Seems your argument falls apart here.

The fists also proved their faith in the time of the apostasy, when the sons of dorn were those marines who
relieved the solar system from the evil of vandire's rule. Alongside the sisters.

And additionally the BT entry:
IA page 45-51

The background article starts when the legios split. Its identical with the codex fluff.
So in the given timescale it represents the time after dorn hunted the traitors and after he marched with the whole legio against the IW.
Then, and yes not somewhere before did 3 primarchs refute to accept the codex.
We know that Dorn confronted the idea and was willing to stick with his opinion in the same stubborn way
he always was.
We dont know how russ or vulkan acted.
We do know, that Dorn changed his mind when a attack-cruiser was attacked from the imperial navy.

As a pure soldier, Dorn may have remembered how things can get out of hand.
There is nothing grimdark, when a stubborn person is able to let it go, others should laud his efforts to put
the imperium over his personal feelings.

Manchu wrote:

As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.

Treachery?
Against your warp spawned friends of the traitor legios?

Should i really quote the PM's here and ruin your false accusations....?

Plus, what i did here, was in his service, glory to the throne.

A BT thread needs a supporter of the BT POV.

Could go for at least 5 or 6 other chapter- "personalities" in fluff terms...

But youre correct, there is no point arguing fluff based on the lies of heretics against the imperial truth.

Cause truth prevails. As does the allfather.

If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars without having to give it even more than a seconds worth of consideration. They are the most righteous and zealous and frankly I think your base argument is flawed from the get go. I do not recall ever seeing anything that indicated that Dorn divided his psyche and or personality into thirds thereby creating the Crimson Fists, Templars and the remaining Imperial Fists. I believe those chapters were carefully created and that the marines chosen for each were chosen for their particular skills and outlook.

I could not disagree with your theory more Manchu and think you are really reaching with your hypothesis. In the actual fluff, this type of thinking gets you visited by the Inquisition unless of course a Black Templar, Imperial Fist or Crimson Fist heard even a whisper of your theory first in which case of Inquisition could visit and question the small stain on the wall the marines would leave of you.

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

WGXH wrote:

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

Since they have such a plethora of psychics I am no longer sure the Grey Knights will remain pure just based upon the events in their own series.

Hialmar wrote:

WGXH wrote:

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

Since they have such a plethora of psychics I am no longer sure the Grey Knights will remain pure just based upon the events in their own series.

Series are a fine place to ruin the fans imagination of his faction in 40k. Remember the happyness of the BA?

At least, codex templar marks the grey knights as acceptable psyker to us, so its rather the numbers that will
allow the BT to survive longer than the GK in the end.

There's zero chance the Black Templars would turn to Chaos. Sure they have characteristics that separate them from most (not all) codex chapters, namely their aggressive zeal and faith, but what they have in common are their principles.

When the big bad school yard bully starts kicking the weak around, the people sitting on the sides have a choice to make. They either make the easy one and side with the seemingly strong bully and join him in the kicking, or refuse to take sides and avoid confrontation altogether and leave the scene, or go in and defend the weaker party and immediately become the next guy to be bullied and smacked around. The opportunists take the first choice, the cowards the second, and the heroes the last one.

When Horus asked his brothers' legions to join him against the Emperor, the ones who accepted were the weak ones with no principles or morals. They saw that the big school yard bully was going to war and that the easiest way forward was to help him out or alternatively sit at the sidelines avoiding confrontation. Most of them would've sided with the Emperor but for the fact Emperor wasn't there when they were forced to decide. The traitors were opportunists and capitalists who would do anything in order to keep accumulating power. The ones who were asked but refused, like Iron Hands, showed that they would rather die than to do something they inherently felt was wrong and evil and completely against all the things they stood for. It was to go against the very reason of their existence. You don't need to know or be told something is wrong, because you can feel it in your gut.

Very few people in real life put their own neck, reputation and emotional well-being at risk simply to do what is right. The loyalist first founding legions did it and showed they were the ones who were truly created from the Emperor's image. They would do the right thing, no matter what.

I would agree with some other poster earlier that the Black Templars would suicide on their own guns before falling to Chaos. If every Space Marine chapter in the universe turned against the Emperor, the Black Templars would refuse and die in a glorious blaze of defiance. I believe it would be one of the better endings they could think of. The Black Templars values are so strong that they would go to war with their own command structure if they detected heresy within. In one particular Black Library short story the Black Templars are fighting Khornate cultists on a Chaos infested planet, and when their commander orders them to tactically retreat, the Templar grunts start to question the commander's loyalty and faith in the Emperor and even go so far as to refuse certain orders and go on record that they're reporting him once the mission is over. In my opinion the Black Templars overall are uncorruptible. They are a chapter in which every person is an Imperial Commissar watching out for their battle-brothers. When everyone else falls, they stand. They don't say the following for nothing: "Your honour is your life. Let none dispute it."

The problem with your arguement is that the Black Templars do not Crusade in an attempt to redeem themselves of a terrible Dorn related secret. There are several reasons the templars crusade as they do. 1.) Is to prove their loyalities to the Emperor, not, though due to a dark secret but rather due to the Ultramarines accusing them of heresy when Dorn refused(along with several other Primarchs mind you) to consent to the codex. 2.) Fluff tells us that Dorn upon finding the body of the Emperor, shattered his sword over his knee because he felt he had failed the Imperium and the Emperor because he was not there to protect him. The Templars then carry their Father's grief and see forgiveness in which they believe they can find through the deaths of all the Emperor's enemies. 3.) The sheer amount of faith and confidence they have in the Emperor is, I believe, beyond any other group in the Imperium and that to even question it is simply foolhardy. Their faith rivals that of the Grey Knights and Sisters themselves if not simply overpowering them.

On a side note. If we're going to accuse any Loyalist chapter of being capable of being Heretics here, I'd put my money on Space Wolves. Why? Well they fired on the Ecclesiarchy(sp) and had a minor war with them above Fenris itself. The only reason(I believe this was noted in the codex) that they haven't been accused of heretics is that they due to their feriocity and battle prowess the Inquisition wants to keep them as an ally and thinks they would make to great of an enemy.

Graham McNeill wrote:With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military organisation that would sread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a Legion again. For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes . . . (Codex Black Templars, pg6, my emphasis)

Matthew Ward wrote:Knowing of Guilliman's lethal efficiency in war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting far in the galactic south. As a result, the Ultramarines had come through the terrible wars largely unscathed. Yet even these mighty warriors were stretched to the limit in buying time for other loyalist forces to regroup and rearm. Legends tell that Guilliman was everywhere in these times . . . With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a might tome known as the Codex Astartes . . . Never again would one man be able to command the awesome, terrifying power of a Space Marine Legion. (Codex: Space Marine 5th ed., pg. 7, my emphasis)

Phil Kelly wrote:Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty Legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known, however, is that the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military traditions of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred to the teachings of Russ that are handed down from Wolf Priest to Blood Claw whelp even to this day. (Codex: Space Wolves 2nd ed. pg. 9)

Dan Abnett wrote:Space Marines are inherently tough but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. It begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another legion (my emphasis, source link provided below*)

A lot has been said about the loyalty of the Black Templars, about their unbreakable faith. But what exactly is the meaning of their zealotry? What is this "faith" that they fanatically defend? The point that all of you are missing is that the Black Templars represent the very opposite of what the Emperor wanted for the galaxy. As you can see from the above quotations, it was Guilliman rather than Dorn who saved the Imperium from destruction at the hands of the traitors (the erroneous assumption seems to be that the Heresy ended with Horus's death)--Dorn was too busy wallowing in self-pity, subjecting himself to Slaaneshi-like pain-induced visions, and (no matter what the specifics of the timeline) loosing his fething mind to lead the surviving loyalists. Yes, the Imperial Fists played the noblest role (Custodes aside) in the defense of Terra under Dorn. Yes, they most likely played a large part in driving the traitors into the Eye of Terror. They did this, however, at the direction of Roboute Guilliman. Guilliman even saved Dorn himself from the clutches of the Iron Hands. Guilliman, it would seem, better embodies the vision of the Emperor than Dorn. Ultramar is the only corner of the galaxy that even remotely resembles what the Emperor set out to accomplish on the Great Crusade. The Black Templars, by contrast, are a perversion--just as the Ecclesiarchy itself is a perversion, (from every indication in existing fluff) totally unintended by the Emperor and ironically the abortive brainchild of Lorgar. Like the Ultramarines--as opposed to the Black Templars--the Space Wolves have also stayed true to the Emperor's vision for them. Or do you think that the genetic instability of the Canis Helix is some sort of mistake on the part of the Emperor? I think not. The Emperor knew perfectly well what he was doing when he made Leman Russ: the Emperor didn't need yet another brilliant, brooding tactician; no, he needed a Primarch-killer. He needed a Legion-hunting Legion. The Inquisition, insofar as it is remotely informed as to the Emperor's true intentions, would not dare to challenge ANY of the chpaters--least of all the Space Wolves--on theological points. To the extent that the Inquisition was involved in the attempted Ecclesial interdict, it seems to have learned its lesson.

*Abnett quote

1) welcome back

2) youre still wrong about the motives of the templars

3) the space wolves are under suspicious investigation by the inquisition . You could find this in the SW-codex

4) the vision of the emperor wasn't accomplished, but the ultramarines didn't even touch this goal too.

5) instead of rebuilding the imperium, EVERY legion (except the ultras) was traitor hunting.

6) the timeline had mattered, but since youre bound to prove without proof we can drop this if it gets the thread forward.

7) no legion was free of problems, some had severe issues , others just light tendencies.

8) really nice quote from the coming double HH books, looking forward to read.
Could change some things....

9) as the main reason of the emperor to create 20 different legions may be unknown to us forever, it is a hint that
diversity could be one of his goals. Plus synergy of strengths.

10) the templars won the super survivor => so they will win the galaxy in his name..

(1) Thanks--belated Happy New Year to you!

(2) BT motive = make up for Dorn's, and thus their own, "failures"; what's wrong about that?

(3) meaningless; even the battle (I think) you're referring to shows how fractious and irrelevant the Inquisition is relative to itself concerning the question of loyalty

(4) Ultramar is evidence of Guilliman's loyalty to the Emperor's vision; the Black Templars are evidence that Dorn either misinterpreted or turned against that vision; you think I am saying the BT will turn but a better way of putting it is that they are a betrayal as they already are

(5) UMs also hunted traitors; Guilliman actually led the whole effort

(6) I thought it was (a) crazy Dorn nearly dies at the Iron Cage, (b) Guilliman saves Dorn, (c) Guilliman presents Codex Asatrtes, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war BUT, taking your word for it, Index Astartes has it as (a) Guilliman presents Codex Astartes, (b) crazy Dorn nearly dies at Iron Cage, (c) Guilliman saves Dorn, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war. Either way, my point about the BT (they are Dorn's crazy, unrepentant children) stands.

(7) Agreed. Dark Angels were and still are the worst. Well, BT may be worse than them because BT are delusional. At least the DA know that their own private vendetta means more to them than serving the Emperor. BT think their private vendetta = serving the Emperor.

(8) I hope they are great. Nervous about McNeil's book as Mechanicum was awful, IMO, especially when compared to Abnett's Titanicus. Also look forward to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's The First Heretic and James Swallow's Nemesis. I really hope Nemesis will feature Sisters of Silence and maybe even Garro.

(9) Right, we'll probably never know. But I don't think He made a mistake in doing so or that he was not aware of the problem of genetic instability. I think the "flaw" was probably built in so that the Legions could never self-perpetuate at their pre-Heresy strengths. If one or several turned, the geneseed would eventually erode past usefulness. Unfortunately, the gifts of Chaos turned out to be a perfect supplement to this corruption . . .

(10) No comment.

Manchu wrote:(1) Thanks--belated Happy New Year to you!

(2) BT motive = make up for Dorn's, and thus their own, "failures"; what's wrong about that?

(3) meaningless; even the battle (I think) you're referring to shows how fractious and irrelevant the Inquisition is relative to itself concerning the question of loyalty

(4) Ultramar is evidence of Guilliman's loyalty to the Emperor's vision; the Black Templars are evidence that Dorn either misinterpreted or turned against that vision; you think I am saying the BT will turn but a better way of putting it is that they are a betrayal as they already are

(5) UMs also hunted traitors; Guilliman actually led the whole effort

(6) I thought it was (a) crazy Dorn nearly dies at the Iron Cage, (b) Guilliman saves Dorn, (c) Guilliman presents Codex Asatrtes, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war BUT, taking your word for it, Index Astartes has it as (a) Guilliman presents Codex Astartes, (b) crazy Dorn nearly dies at Iron Cage, (c) Guilliman saves Dorn, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war. Either way, my point about the BT (they are Dorn's crazy, unrepentant children) stands.

(7) Agreed. Dark Angels were and still are the worst. Well, BT may be worse than them because BT are delusional. At least the DA know that their own private vendetta means more to them than serving the Emperor. BT think their private vendetta = serving the Emperor.

(8) I hope they are great. Nervous about McNeil's book as Mechanicum was awful, IMO, especially when compared to Abnett's Titanicus. Also look forward to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's The First Heretic and James Swallow's Nemesis. I really hope Nemesis will feature Sisters of Silence and maybe even Garro.

(9) Right, we'll probably never know. But I don't think He made a mistake in doing so or that he was not aware of the problem of genetic instability. I think the "flaw" was probably built in so that the Legions could never self-perpetuate at their pre-Heresy strengths. If one or several turned, the geneseed would eventually erode past usefulness. Unfortunately, the gifts of Chaos turned out to be a perfect supplement to this corruption . . .

(10) No comment.

2) they didn't "fail"...

3) dare to try it? Looking forward how far Manchu runs before they get you...

4) ultramar is testament of gully-mans organisation talent, but rather weak in showcasing the emperors vision.

5) g-man didn'T lead the primarchs went a bit on their own.

6) and still they don't feel unloved... Maybe only a templar understands a templar...wait. Sisters aren't that different.

Could it be...

..the wolfies jealous of the templar/sister joined forces..

7) So its now the DA? I see another thread..

The funny part is, there is no private vendatta cause templars have no privacy.

8) I think the wolves have some silent sisters around if I remember the cover correct.

Agreed we need more about the legions and less "fillers" like heroes of the space marines.

9) chaos is imperfection in itself. Only able to change, unable to create.

The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amoral) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

1hadhq wrote:The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

Sigged.

Manchu wrote:(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amoral) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

2)

3) ok, 40k cinematic needs the struggle IMO.

4) so is it true, everyone wants to be a smurf? Didn't expect that. When will fenris change to ultramar II?

5) Can't agree here, IIRC the primarchs ran their legions independantly from gully-man.

The ultras did the fighting to allow the other legios to rebuild. Doesn't imply that gully-man had any power over
the other legios. IMO rather a council with G-man as leader.

But I do agree that gully-man would be the better choice as warmaster from a rationale POV.
Horus was chosen as "most beloved son" and possibly as superior diplomat.
But G-man would have dealt with the bureaucrats easily and freed his brothers to do the fighting.
Bad mistake to have glory hog horus as warmaster.

6) 10k years may erase knowledge a bit.

7) but the DA have solved one of their problems already: different recrutement sources instead of clandestine rivalries. If we take the "wolf of fenris" ( part of chaos and sw dex ) as example,
how would grimnar react to treachery?
Calling a great hunt? Oh the similarities.....

But remember, ruleswise, the hunt is gone. As is Cypher and the fallen.

8) Liked the SoS from their first appearance in Visions of..., and I am also curious what happened.

Was their duty to man the black ships, later SoB took over. Maybe some left?

9) One can also be mislead to believe he served chaos when all is just a lie.

Very interesting.

I find it funny how Dorn and the Imperial Fists have spawned my favourite (Crimson Fists) and least favourite (Black Templar) 'loyal' Space Marine chapters.

I don't know if it was their sudden insertion in 3rd edition or what, but something has always bothered me about them.

Too me, they always just seemed two-dimensional. It's nice to see a different take that gives them a bit more depth.

Manchu wrote:(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amor
al) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

1hadhq wrote:The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

Sigged.

2. Wrong, crusading is the original mission of all spacemarines. The Templars still follow this ancient ideal, others dont. Everyone serves in his way. Your assumption that they do it out of some kind of guilt has no base, wether in the Codex nor in other, lesser fluffsources.

3. There is no "The Inquisition". Ask a Monodominant and he will definatly tell you that there IS good and evil. The Xhantite will probably have a different opinion.

4. Ultramar is comparativly nice, yes. But it is still far away from the kind of place that the Emperor wished. The people their still engage in religious activity and having Space Marines as rulers is most certainly not what the big E. had in mind for the entire galaxy, which is ultimatly one of the points which drove Horus over the edge.

5 So, papa smurf is now the better Emperor than the big E himself? Delicous heresy. But what kind of leadership did he provide? His splitting of the Legions, under what authority?. his own?, nearly caused a second civil war. You speak of how papa smurf "would" have done various things, but you lack any proof.

6. Why should they? Who says that the emperor is no god? Perhaps the eclesiarchy is right and he ascended on death? There is no definite proof that it didn't happen this way. Besides that, it could be argued that the templars do not worship the emperor as god but merely revere him, like other chapters do just in a slightly more extreme form.

7. And the Ultramarines prioritize their own little empire, inquisitor X prioritizes his own little agenda, everyone has his own priorities.

So, that is all for now

KingDeath wrote:2. Wrong, crusading is the original mission of all spacemarines. The Templars still follow this ancient ideal, others dont. Everyone serves in his way. Your assumption that they do it out of some kind of guilt has no base, wether in the Codex nor in other, lesser fluffsources.

3. There is no "The Inquisition". Ask a Monodominant and he will definatly tell you that there IS good and evil. The Xhantite will probably have a different opinion.

4. Ultramar is comparativly nice, yes. But it is still far away from the kind of place that the Emperor wished. The people their still engage in religious activity and having Space Marines as rulers is most certainly not what the big E. had in mind for the entire galaxy, which is ultimatly one of the points which drove Horus over the edge.

5 So, papa smurf is now the better Emperor than the big E himself? Delicous heresy. But what kind of leadership did he provide? His splitting of the Legions, under what authority?. his own?, nearly caused a second civil war. You speak of how papa smurf "would" have done various things, but you lack any proof.

6. Why should they? Who says that the emperor is no god? Perhaps the eclesiarchy is right and he ascended on death? There is no definite proof that it didn't happen this way. Besides that, it could be argued that the templars do not worship the emperor as god but merely revere him, like other chapters do just in a slightly more extreme form.

7. And the Ultramarines prioritize their own little empire, inquisitor X prioritizes his own little agenda, everyone has his own priorities.

So, that is all for now

Ha. Here we go:

(2) Your equivocation is noted and dismissed. Crusading as such was not the original mission of all Space Marines. Rather the general goal of the Great Crusade, to retake the holdings of the former Terran and Martian empires, was their original mission. The spirit of that mission was to stamp out the darkness of baseless superstitions. Black Templars represent the opposite of that spirit as they are more religiously inclined than any Marines (save the Word Bearers, their ironic cousins). As for why they do it, if you think that it's not based in Dorn's guilt, what can I say? You don't know the fluff very well. I would suggest reading (or re-reading) this thread.

(3) What's your point? Looks like you're simply restating mine.

(4) More equivocation. I think you misunderstand the difference between veneration and adoration.

(5) Guilliman stepped up to the plate after the Emperor mounted His Throne. He also gave up that authority when the Imperium began to run on its on. I've only spoken about what Guilliman did, as gleaned from canonical sources. If you don't have the SM or BT codices you can read the direct quotes I posted above. Many have decried the Codex Astartes as unnecessary and/or evidence of Guilliman's egomania--a rather idiotic position. Consider that there has been no second Horus Heresy in ten thousand years. Even the fall of an entire Chapter (e.g., Astral Claws) is a relatively minor problem comparatively.

(6) Of all the Chapters that should be dubious of the Ecclesiarchy, Dorn's sons stand in the forefront. After all, it was Dorn who strapped the Emperor into the Golden Throne. The BT, however, talk of trusting in the Emperor to intercede on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. This is totally counter factual but typical of Dorn's imbalanced emotional state at that time. Which is what this whole thread is about: the BT being a result of Dorn going off the deep end. Also, see point four above.

(7) And yet more equivocation. Ultramar is a theater of operations, not an internal obsession of the Ultramarines on par with the dereliction of the "Unforgiven"

Tbh, I think the Templars could fall to chaos, although not in the most obvious of ways. If we take as a real life example the Spanish Inquisition (they whom nobody expects), modern day terrorism or some of the actions perpertrated by the Real Life Crusaders, who all did (or do) some really nasty things, this is undeniable. However they all claim to be doing it in the name of thier faith, but can they truly be said to be Christian or Muslim? It is much the same with the Black Templars, although they have a lot of Religious Zeal, it is the methods they use that will eventually damn them, no matter how much religious fervour they have.
To sum it up, It should be said that 'The Road to Hell (or in this case, Chaos) is paved with good intentions.'

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

And the templar crusade is not a penitent one....

more a pursue the traitors.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

And the templar crusade is not a penitent one....

more a pursue the traitors.

Although this could be Interpreted as an Order of Penitence, if what Manchu is saying is correct, however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

Fair point about the order to crusade though.

1hadhq wrote:They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

Riiiiiiight. And why? Because he was feeling like a failure.

1hadhq wrote:And the templar crusade is not a penitent one.... more a pursue the traitors.

To use a SW saying, they're chasing their tails! jk, jk!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dastardly Dave wrote:however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

The sort of fluff arguments that have winners and losers are the worst and most boring kind.

Dastardly Dave wrote:
however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

The sort of fluff arguments that have winners and losers are the worst and most boring kind.

Yeah, I actually prefer arguments that can't be won or lost, they give far more scope for creative, reasoned and persuasive arguments, and make you think more about your points.

Its like trying to have an argument over who would win in a fight between 500 'nids and 1 tactical marine: Clearly, the nids are going to win, omnomnomnomnom...
But the current argument is based on points of view, with the main participants unwilling to back down and both utterly convinced they are right. = Infinite Argument

Now why can't you both set aside your differences and accept the greater good?

We'll definitely set aside our difference to gleefully slaughter some xenos scum, if that's what you mean by "greater good."

Sometimes 1hadhq and I tend to get a bit too deeply into character. But I think that shows the true depth of the 40k fluff. You can get sucked into these entirely fictional perspectives and then look at things from two totally opposite but equally valid points of view.

I would put forth that Dorn, being a stubborn to a fault wished to carry out the last orders of his beloved Emperor.

Thus, while the Imperial/Crimson Fists would embody the spirit of the Codex and stay in their respective areas, the Templars were created to continue the mission handed down by the Emperor.

Dorn's activities in the iron cage and the pain glove stem more from his guilt in his failure. He and his legion failed to stop Horus, but unlike the other primarchs He was in charge of Earth's safety and had designed its defenses. I believe his guilt prevented him from taking charge at the end of the Heresy and allowed Gulliman to take control.

Fluff wise the Fists have always equalled the Ultramarines, and so too did Dorn and Gulliman mirror each others accomplishments. There is no reason why Gulliman got top billing, other then Dorn was MIA. Russ and Corax had their own problems and few would follow them, but Dorn could have swayed the others if he wasn't distracted by his own grief. Thus his opposition when Guilliman first revealed his book.

However, he realized that humanity could not afford another schism, so he, Corax, and Khan relented. However he did not forget his oaths and the Templar are the result. They are a compromise that Guilliman never called Dorn on, never censured him for even though he had to have known what was going on.

Note that Russ was never censured either for essentially giving everyone the finger and returning to the Fang to do things his way.

Dorn, having met his obligations to Guilliman with the Fists chapters, felt free to set the Templars back on his own path. They are his vision, a return to a time before his greatest failure.

If you mean that after Horus and Sanguinius were dead, only Dorn and Guilliman had the right personalities to lead the Empire then I agree with you. I also agree that Dorn's grief is what kept him from playing a stronger role. But that is the key difference between Guilliman and Dorn. Dorn was passionate while Guilliman was sangfroid about everything. It does not appear that Dorn actually led the opposition to Codex Astartes. It does not appear that there was any organized opposition. Dorn simply refused and did so in a manner scandalous enough in troubled times to merit Guilliman's wrath while Khan and Russ did not. As for Russ, Guilliman must have been aware of what the SW were bred for (at least after Prospero) and so his indifference to Russ's cursory acknowledgement of the Codex (proven correct by the failure of the Wolf Brothers' geneseed) is understandable. The better question is why Guilliman showed restraint against the BT. There must have either been a compromise between himself and Dorn (perhaps Guilliman was placated that the BT would at least not be led by a Primarch, who would wield a Legion to incomparably greater ruin than any Space Marine--just think of Abbadon) or Dorn deceived him about the true shape and purpose of the BT. My bet is that it was a little of both.

Yes, BT are Dorn's vision. But I wonder if it is truly that of the time before his "failure". It seems to me that they are the embodiment of that failure (which was hardly a failure and if it was anyone's it was the Emperor's own, if there is such a thing) or rather the consequent guilt. The BT are the fruit of whatever vision Dorn experience while inside of the Pain Glove, the children of Dorn's madness at the Iron Cage. As such, I call them a dubious chapter.

I think Guilliman, deep down, must have truly pitied the Dark Angels. I think that's why he mostly left them to their own devices, although they did attempt to comply with the Codex by creating successor chapters. They suffered more than any other loyalist legion from the Heresy and Guilliman must have sensed that they would take the longest to recover the semblance of their former glory. If so, he was surely right.

Dorn, having met his obligations to Guilliman with the Fists chapters, felt free to set the Templars back on his own path. They are his vision, a return to a time before his greatest failure.

So you're saying that the Templars are merely a Sentimental reminder of the Great Crusade, rather than an attempt to redeem himself that resulted in a chapter that is eternally balanced on the edge of chaos?

Manchu wrote:To use a SW saying, they're chasing their tails! jk, jk!

Tails are mutations and mutants must be purged.

Its not my fault,
This righteous zeal kicks sometimes in, unwanted...

Manchu wrote:We'll definitely set aside our difference to gleefully slaughter some xenos scum, if that's what you mean by "greater good."

Fine.
Self sacrificing xenos.

The machinations of the Emperor bear fruit.
In the past, we had to chase them.
Now, they come on their own.



@ Durandal:

Good argument.
Can't resist to agree.

Manchu, Dorn and his troops bore the largest extent of the persecution by the Ultramarines and Imperial forces for not adhering to the codex. This indicates that Dorn and his forces were considered the biggest threat to the new order.

The Fluff is clear Dorn was absent from the war councils that grew into the new leadership of humanity. He, not the Ultramarines hunted down and destroyed the traitors forces in the scouring.
He returned at the head of his army only to find Robute Guilliman had restructured the Imperium, perhaps away from the Emperor's vision. As the only Primarch to routinely be on Earth during the Emperor's great works, and the only one to fully understand the Golden Throne due to the revelations of the Emperor, Dorn had a better idea of what the Emperor really was working on.

This had to have angered Dorn. It wasn't just being out of power. Power never mattered to him, as shown how the Fists never demanded tribute from planets. The only other thing he had going was the vision of the Emperor. Dorn had sworn to uphold that vision. You might be right that that vision drifted after the horror of the heresy, but the Templars have been described as a "Pre-Heresy" style marine army by GW. Fanatical, indoctrinated, but lets not forget that all marines are subject to psycho conditioning and know no fear. Dorn hand picked all the members of this new chapter and their leader for these traits. He could have diluted them with the Crimson Fists and his own Imperial Fists Ranks.

If we are to accept that he did so because he had been touched by chaos inspired visions and the result is a tainted chapter we ignore the Templar's sterling reputation in the battles for Armageddon, where their chapter master and their leaders clearly cared for the humans under their protection. Unlike the Flesh Tearers. By comparison they are a chapter "over the edge" that even the Rough and Ready Space Wolves have issues with. But that is beside the point. The actions of the Templars have been generally on the "good" side. A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

So the only other answer is that Dorn needed to continue the Emperor's plan, not for "Sentimental reasons" as Dasterdly Dave puts it, but because he understood to a great extent what the Emperor had planned for humanity and the Templars are needed to enact it. Kind of like the Slann in some respects.

But at this point he had already rocked the boat buy telling Guilliman to get bent. So he cut a deal. He and Vulkan would adhere to the codex, but he would send out a crusade force. Think of the PR deal here. Guilliman gets his codex approved and implemented plus a third (or fourth) of Dorn's forces leave Imperal space, if he turns a blind eye to how the fleet is organized. In exchange Dorn can have his own plan enacted outside the prying eyes of Guilliman's pet Inquisition.

That leaves the Space Wolves as the only non standard chapter, and Guilliman could live with one diminished legion vs a multitude of his chapters. Their unique geneseed issues were not known at the time, so that isn't a real factor in the decision. I see it more as a power thing. You don't mess with Fenris, but you can cut them out of the loop and leave them as a speed bump for anyone on the way to earth.

I agree completely that the fluff indicates Dorn was the biggest threat to galactic stability after the Heresy. After all, the Imperial Fists were the only ones anyone bothered firing upon. As I've already said, there's not much more that can be drawn from this that isn't mostly speculative.

As to the Ultramarines not hunting down traitors, I have already posted a direct quotations from the C:BT and C:SM 5th ed to the contrary. At this point, we don't know what Guilliman thought about the emergent Ecclesiarchy. It is entirely possible that he thought it was the necessary glue in holding the crumbling Imperium together and that Dorn took exception to that. The fluff seems to imply otherwise. For one thing, the contemporary Ecclesiarchy evolved from thousands of cults over the course of millennia rather than emerging all at once as a monolithic entity following the heresy. For another thing, the Black Templar seem far more embroiled with the Imperial Creed than other Space Marine Chapters (including the Imperial Fists). If the BT are true to Dorn's real post-Heresy vision, as I argue, then it stands to reason that Dorn would not have been very concerned about the negative effects of Emperor-worship and may even have encouraged it amongst those of his Marines more given to zealotry, like Sigismund.

The fluff (so far) also makes it clear that Dorn, as much as any other Primarch, was pretty much in the dark as to the Emperor's plans and motives as the Heresy got underway.

I agree that power never "mattered" to Dorn but I would argue that is because, like nearly all of his brother Primarchs, he simply took it for granted. At the same time, Dorn was unarguably totally loyal to the Emperor. That trait for fanaticism is expressed with most vitriol in the BT. I have never seen BT described as pre-Heresy by GW. I have described them, as far as their organization goes, that way myself. I do not think their religious fanaticism is a pre-Heresy trait, however, as it is wel established that the Emperor did not tolerate that sort of thinking among the Word Bearers. I would not disagree that Dorn hand-picked the first BT. I merely argue that he picked those who were least amenable to the Codex Astartes and most caught up in his own guilt complex, again like Sigismund.

Durandal wrote: A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

It's not only in their fluff, it's in their play style and the rules that establish it.

I also think Vulkan rejected the Codex for different reasons than Dorn. Dorn did not want to abandon the Legion system established by the Emperor. While he had taken losses, he saw that his Legion was largely in tact even after the Siege of Terra. Despite seeing the Emperor's wounding as his own and his Legion's "failure," he must have also concluded that only the strength of a Legion could counter the terrible armies of Horus. Vulkan, by contrast, had seen his own Legion shattered. How could he be expected to split it up what was left of his warrior family? The Wolves, as I have argued, stand apart by the design of the Emperor. I think Guilliman would not have failed to notice this after Prospero.

what about the Fall of the Soul drinkers? another Imp fist successor

we all know how pissed the crimson fists and the imps where about it but how the fanatical Black Templars reacted to that (for the whole if a fist successor fell from grace point of veiw)

(or the nicking of a sacred Rogal Dorn artifact (soul spear by the Ad Mech)

Manchu wrote:I agree completely that the fluff indicates Dorn was the biggest threat to galactic stability after the Heresy. After all, the Imperial Fists were the only ones anyone bothered firing upon. As I've already said, there's not much more that can be drawn from this that isn't mostly speculative.

As to the Ultramarines not hunting down traitors, I have already posted a direct quotations from the C:BT and C:SM 5th ed to the contrary. At this point, we don't know what Guilliman thought about the emergent Ecclesiarchy. It is entirely possible that he thought it was the necessary glue in holding the crumbling Imperium together and that Dorn took exception to that. The fluff seems to imply otherwise. For one thing, the contemporary Ecclesiarchy evolved from thousands of cults over the course of millennia rather than emerging all at once as a monolithic entity following the heresy. For another thing, the Black Templar seem far more embroiled with the Imperial Creed than other Space Marine Chapters (including the Imperial Fists). If the BT are true to Dorn's real post-Heresy vision, as I argue, then it stands to reason that Dorn would not have been very concerned about the negative effects of Emperor-worship and may even have encouraged it amongst those of his Marines more given to zealotry, like Sigismund.

The fluff (so far) also makes it clear that Dorn, as much as any other Primarch, was pretty much in the dark as to the Emperor's plans and motives as the Heresy got underway.

I agree that power never "mattered" to Dorn but I would argue that is because, like nearly all of his brother Primarchs, he simply took it for granted. At the same time, Dorn was unarguably totally loyal to the Emperor. That trait for fanaticism is expressed with most vitriol in the BT. I have never seen BT described as pre-Heresy by GW. I have described them, as far as their organization goes, that way myself. I do not think their religious fanaticism is a pre-Heresy trait, however, as it is wel established that the Emperor did not tolerate that sort of thinking among the Word Bearers. I would not disagree that Dorn hand-picked the first BT. I merely argue that he picked those who were least amenable to the Codex Astartes and most caught up in his own guilt complex, again like Sigismund.

Durandal wrote: A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

It's not only in their fluff, it's in their play style and the rules that establish it.

I also think Vulkan rejected the Codex for different reasons than Dorn. Dorn did not want to abandon the Legion system established by the Emperor. While he had taken losses, he saw that his Legion was largely in tact even after the Siege of Terra. Despite seeing the Emperor's wounding as his own and his Legion's "failure," he must have also concluded that only the strength of a Legion could counter the terrible armies of Horus. Vulkan, by contrast, had seen his own Legion shattered. How could he be expected to split it up what was left of his warrior family? The Wolves, as I have argued, stand apart by the design of the Emperor. I think Guilliman would not have failed to notice this after Prospero.

1) why fight in this "last stand" position? Can't see a good argument on your side. Seems you want this too much.
Durandal has really good points, why not accept them ALL and concur with the truth?

72) The chase for traitors WAS mostly done by other legions, the Ultras may have participated but as Codex supersmurfs says:
the UM are the bestest marines, therefore got a lot of fluff while the rest of the codex adherent legions were reduced to
"aspirants to smurfhood", it is still true that the UM got not much about their acts after the heresy and before the legions split.
One thing to add, most legions who split had 3-5 successors and compared to the UM 23x....rather obvious who had the numbers
on his side.

3) So the former "champion of the emperor" of the IF legion, sigismund, who bested more chaos champions than any other marine,
is a zealot? I don't get it. Why must kicking traitor asses include zealotry?
Wouldn't a focused mind allow to be victorious and stay alive? Zealots tend to be sometimes successful but most times dead.
A wulfen or any other berserker type warrior may dish out a lot, but still the chance for survival are low.
Different to this, an experienced warrior with some control of his "anger" is able to use it and switch back to calm.
So no, declaring a marine a zealot because he was good at his job doesn't make sense.

4) Dorn in the dark? You did remember that Dorn was in charge when the emperor was absent?
Dorn was the one who sent marines to Istvaan III. Dorn was the primarch who ordered the white scars back to terra.
Maybe thats your reason. He didn't allow the WS to help the SW, but insisted they return to terra.
Found it. "Bad" yellow fists didn't save woofies.
In general, all we have from the hierarchy when the emperor was at home, is that malcador was the second in command but
left the space marines to Dorn.
Again, it was Dorns effort that got enough defenders back to the palace.

5) Intact? Dorn reduced his legion in the iron cage to just enough to split into the usual 3 successors ( vs G-Mans 23x mind you ).
Dorn was a soldier, not a self proclaimed owner of star systems like some blue marines. I think we should return to existant fluff
and steer away from speculations.
The imperial fists have no interest in personal glory ( but some grey space marines do ) and duty is important to them.
Its a difference between the pure militarist ( dorn ) and some other primarchs ( theocrats, clandestine and many other organistional
structures ) like johnson ( knight order ), ferrus manus ( clans ), russ ( vikings in space ), khan ( nomads ), not only in behaviour
but also in interests. Should I mention the benefits of different characters?

6) most "renegades" are former UM or using UM geneseed. So who is on the edge ?
The BT? never lost a single one to chaos. The SW? lost already some to it. DA? BA? Any of the "codified legios"?
Point still stands, BT = 0, others = 1+X.

7) Since your main "point" is Dorns issues with the loss of his emperor:
- tell, which primarch would have taken the events at the siege without "issues" afterwards?

8) Soul drinkers? Can't be bothered to acknowledge their existence. But they proved the point of the BT about psykers...

(2) yep, when you can't agree with the canon better pretend it's not canon (same as your point eight)
(3) I thought you read the HH series?
(4) see above
(5) I said intact after the Heresy not after the suicidal madness of the Iron Cage--the event that proves everything I've been arguing
(6) that's because most marines are UM or using UM geneseed; this, in turn, is because other geneseed (including IF) is comparatively deficient
(7) Roboute Guilliman, in point of fact

Manchu wrote:(2) yep, when you can't agree with the canon better pretend it's not canon (same as your point eight)
(3) I thought you read the HH series?
(4) see above
(5) I said intact after the Heresy not after the suicidal madness of the Iron Cage--the event that proves everything I've been arguing
(6) that's because most marines are UM or using UM geneseed; this, in turn, is because other geneseed (including IF) is comparatively deficient
(7) Roboute Guilliman, in point of fact

3+4) oh, i never miss any of them. But still, sigismund got just one short appearance there ( meeting of dorn with horus ) and this piece didn't hint at zealousness. Rather the opposite with Dorns good advice to Loken. ( like that part, fine to make fun of failbaddon). Have to admit, I as german, get BL books later than others.
Doesn't stop me from reading fast to make up for the lost time...but i take notes if something good to know is to be found.

5) Heresy - 7 years - legios split. So level of power at 2nd founding is like i said.
So when exactly did you have a point? heresy ends = emperor strapped to GT? Sure? I doubt GW said so.
I am sorry to insist of it, but still the perturabo vs dorn incident proves you wrong.....
IF had heavy losses through the siege. Lost more at the crappy cage. It wasn't dorn + intact legio vs codex G-man.

6) you did notice this isn't compatible with the index astartes and several codices?
Ultras had the majority because of their numbers ( 23.000 ) and better recrutement system. Like codex SM told,
the ultras had to LOWER their recrutement greatly after 2nd founding.

7) expected another name, but fine.

8) soul drinkers is like wolf of fenris in that light....

(5) I think you're confused about what I'm trying to say. However many SM Dorn lost at the Iron Cage is unimportant. He had already disagreed with Guilliman over the Codex before that. It also doesn't matter how many IF were lost against Horus, Lorgar, etc on Terra. My point was--regarding this matter as opposed to the main topic of the thread--that Dorn would have been convinced that only a Legion could stand up to the real threats of the Imperium and that following the Codex would be suicide. The main point of the thread is that Dorn went nuts after Horus wounded the Emperor, as seen by his actions at the Cage, and that the BT are the legacy of Dorn's craziness.

(6) Re-read the SM codex. Majority of SM chapters are UM sucessors because of the stability of the UM geneseed. That is extremely well established.

(7) Russ? Russ was clearly effected. That's why he disappeared--as some say, into the very Eye of Terror.

Manchu wrote:(5) I think you're confused about what I'm trying to say. However many SM Dorn lost at the Iron Cage is unimportant. He had already disagreed with Guilliman over the Codex before that. It also doesn't matter how many IF were lost against Horus, Lorgar, etc on Terra. My point was--regarding this matter as opposed to the main topic of the thread--that Dorn would have been convinced that only a Legion could stand up to the real threats of the Imperium and that following the Codex would be suicide. The main point of the thread is that Dorn went nuts after Horus wounded the Emperor, as seen by his actions at the Cage, and that the BT are the legacy of Dorn's craziness.

(6) Re-read the SM codex. Majority of SM chapters are UM sucessors because of the stability of the UM geneseed. That is extremely well established.

5) Still glued to an imagined crazyness of Dorn? Maybe dex o' smurf page 27 can help.
You could call them all stubborn, or see it worse as self sacrifical, but this doesn't change the fact that
IF would chose the path of the samurai instead of the whiny chaos slave.


6) Dex'o smurf page 13 clearly states that about 50% of the space marines were UM after the heresy.
So not really surprising to keep that "influence".
Additionally ,Dex'o smurf page 14 "2nd founding". Nothing of this stability, cause that wasn't so rare. Multiple legions claim that.
But again the size of the legion mattered.

I doubt i need to reread it. Its right there. 50% of marines -> 50% of successor chapters.
And you can't compete with G-Mans organistory talent. No chance to outpace them on recrutement.
Some legions had hard times recruting and will not grow enough to split up new chapters.
If stability is an argument, where are the hordes of DA successors?

9) how about the new "sons of Dorn" book?

(5) Dorn went crazy. It's as simple as that. He was not faced with a choice between death and submission to Chaos. He could have approached the Iron Cage more sensibly--he was a Primarch general, wasn't he???--but his insanity got in the way.

(6) One objective of the Codex was to preserve integrity of geneseed. (C:SM5 p8) Guilliman basically was forcing everyone else to follow his slow recruitment policies in order to halt its degradation. The IF and their successors, for example, are zygote deficient. (The implication would seem to be that VII Legion recruited more quickly if less steadily than XIII Legion.) Even though the Ultramarines have directly and indirectly given rise to far more successor chapters than any other legion or chapter, their geneseed (barring spontaneous mutations, as in the 21st Founding) remains stable and complete.

While the codex does not explicitly state it, it is reasonable to guess that about 50% or slightly less of the Second Founding chapters were derived from Ultramarine stock. C:SM5 (p14) says that most chapters had less than five successors while the Ultramarines had twenty three. We know of that the Space Wolves only split into two chapters and the IF split into (at least) three. Assuming that the White Scars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels likely split into five or six chapters each and that the decimated Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders were only able to split into two chapters each, that puts the Ultramarine successors at 45 - 48% of all First and Second Founding chapters.

We do know that by M41, half of all subsequent foundings are descended directly or indirectly from Guilliman. This is in part because of the prevalance of Ultramarine successors from the Second Founding (C:SM5 p14) but more likely, given how many of the Primogenitors must have been destroyed before they could themselves split in subsequent foundings, because Adeptus Terra always favors UM geneseed when creating new chapters (C:SM5 p10). Now that I have reminded you of who actually makes the decision to found a new chapter and to do so from who's geneseed, you will be able to figure out why there are not more Unforgiven Chapters despite the stability of DA geneseed.

Given all of this, I don't understand your insinuations of Guilliman's "influence" being forced upon everyone else. He divided his Legion into Chapters before anyone else. And even after Dorn gave in, the BT would have significantly outnumbered any other chapter. BT were the entire VII Legion, post Iron Cage, minus two thousand marines after all. The only possibly larger chapter were the Space Wolves.

(9) Haven't picked it up. I thought the IF Scouts story in Heroes of the Space Marines was awful.

The funny thing about this whole thread is that IF were my favorite chapter when I first got into 40k. I used to think Dorn was awesome. The Black Templars, in combination with the overwhelming awesomeness of the Space Wolves, are what changed my mind. And, as I've gotten older, I've started to think of Guilliman as what Dorn should have been. If Guilliman had been at Terra, I wonder if Horus would even have gotten into the Solar System. Attacking when he and Russ were away was the most brilliant part of Horus's strategy.

Ultramarines were lucky in getting away mostly unmauled compared to the other legions, which did help. Yes, they fought the Word Bearers, but I've gotten the impression that they were smaller (a lot of their force seems to be split onto the planets they conquered, to convert the populous, and they had a decent chunk of leaders with Horus and the other fallen legions as being the closest to the chaos gods) and not as well adapted to the type of fighting that they engaged in. They were mostly a distraction, while the others sent to intercept were attempting to cripple the other legions before they arrived just as much as tie them up.

I didn't think that there were any successor chapters fragmenting from the Salamanders, because they were rendered below chapter numbers and just recruited to the new limit. Dark Angels lost half their legion straight up, then split into 3 or 4 confirmed by fluff, unknown if there were a few more. Space Wolves were more a token split to pacify than a numbers game. Iron Hands and Raven Guard... weren't they rendered into only a few hundred marines for one, and barely a hundred survivors for the other? No splitting possible. White Scars I'm not sure of how they came through, but if not too badly they probably split into quite a few. I think all the Astral Claws area was White Scar geneseed, but that was later on. Still suggests that if several chapters can be made from it at once (at least 3) then there is a decent stock of fairly reasonable quality, implying a reasonable number of successors. Blood Angels got a double hammer blow, first the ambush/attack on Signus Prime (getting tricked onto a newly fallen daemon world and ambushed, then having the entire legion go into the Black Rage when their primach is crippled and fighting so fiercely that Khorne daemons turn tail and run/are banished) which did a lot of damage. Then being on the front lines of the Battle of Terra and the holding of the Eternity Gate (even if in the end Sanguinius was the last one left holding it for several days). Again, fair bit of mangling and then splitting into half a dozen chapters, I think. Although with corrupted geneseed, which is why most of the BA geneseed chapters are quite old because using it on new ones has turned out to be a bad idea. Given the the Ultramarines were the largest legion at the time of the HH, it's not surprising they got the lions share of the successors.

I also don't think each was an immediate 1k marines. More like 800-900, so that they could actually start recruiting and training immediately instead of only starting later on. Which would stretch the geneseed further and exaggerate the differences. Finally, the more chapters you start with, the more you have to harvest geneseed from, the more you can make with it... Combined with the fact that some legion's seed can only be used sparingly because of mutations, it isn't really surprising at least half the current marines have descended from Gulliman.

UM were not "lucky"--Horus was the one who got lucky on that count. Like I said, this was one half of the best idea he ever had. But you're right about the Word Bearers on one count at least. Whatever number of them the UM were fighting it wasn't the full Legion because Erebus and Kor Phaeron were leading Word Bearers at the Siege of Terra.

Alright, lucky in the 'they didn't get mauled' context, because it turned out to be more effective leading them on a wild goose chase than attempting to fight them to a halt.

And lucky Horus for having allies that actually did manage to keep them on a wild goose chase for so long. With that many chasing them, the Word Bearers must have had quite some skill (and/or a decent whack of chaos god favour). Although it has been established that the UM did better in straight battle and not gurrilla warfare. Each legion seemed to end up with a specialty. UM apparently follow the 'all rounders, and many feet on the ground' tactic. Simple and reliable. And another reason that steady, constant recruitment would suit them and how they would build numbers more than their brother legions.

I'm not sure that the UM needed to hunt after the WB. Think WB just popped up and attacked them when the UM got to Calth.

If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra. I think there had to be a bit of 'chase us! Chase us away from Terra!' sort of going on.

... excuse me while I purge the hilarious image of Word Bearers going 'nwah nwah' and running...

Morgrim wrote:If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra.

inorite especially given that FORTY companies of WB were in the Solar System under Sor Talgron, according to Visions of Heresy . . . although it should be noted that this book has Erebus and Kor Phaeron at Ultramar when Anthony Reynolds says in Dark Apostle that they were both at the Siege . . . but the fight against the WB seems harder than you think

Here are some snippets:

Alan Merrett wrote:Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers. (Visions p162)

Alan Merrett wrote:However, Guilliman's first priority was to stabalise the Ultramarines' situation. It as very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihiliation. (Visions p164)

There is no further mention of the Ultramarines until, moments before the Emperor boards the Venegeful Spirit, Horus learns that the Ultramarines have left Calth. Although he is surprised at their victory, he assumes they must be the biggest Loyalist force remaining and is highly anxious to mop things up before they arrive. (By comparison, he is not at all worried about the rapidly approaching Wolves and Scars!) This news becomes a key factor in his decision to lower the barge shields as a direct challenge the Emperor. It would seem therefore that the Ultramarines fought a long war within the Calth system, spending much of it recovering from the initial surprise attack and then taking apart and driving off Lorgar.

Tellingly, most of the UM and Guilliman were at Saturn before Horus ordered them to Veridian.

Manchu wrote:(5) Dorn went crazy. It's as simple as that. He was not faced with a choice between death and submission to Chaos. He could have approached the Iron Cage more sensibly--he was a Primarch general, wasn't he???--but his insanity got in the way.

Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

Manchu wrote:
(6) One objective of the Codex was to preserve integrity of geneseed. (C:SM5 p8) Guilliman basically was forcing everyone else to follow his slow recruitment policies in order to halt its degradation. The IF and their successors, for example, are zygote deficient. (The implication would seem to be that VII Legion recruited more quickly if less steadily than XIII Legion.) Even though the Ultramarines have directly and indirectly given rise to far more successor chapters than any other legion or chapter, their geneseed (barring spontaneous mutations, as in the 21st Founding) remains stable and complete.

Did i say anything about IF's having a complete variant of genesed? Its rather well known they dont.

Manchu wrote:
While the codex does not explicitly state it, it is reasonable to guess that about 50% or slightly less of the Second Founding chapters were derived from Ultramarine stock. C:SM5 (p14) says that most chapters had less than five successors while the Ultramarines had twenty three. We know of that the Space Wolves only split into two chapters and the IF split into (at least) three. Assuming that the White Scars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels likely split into five or six chapters each and that the decimated Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders were only able to split into two chapters each, that puts the Ultramarine successors at 45 - 48% of all First and Second Founding chapters.

Why not use the nice chart GW put in every marine dex?
It wasn't changed over several editions, should be stable enough to pull from it.

Dark angels = 3 ( maybe another 3 in their own dex )
White scars = 4
Space wolves = 1
Imperial Fists = 2
Blood angels = 5
Iron Hands = 2
Ultramarines = 23 ( 8 named )
Salamanders = unknown
Raven Guard = 3

Assuming we count the non-smurfs, its 28 vs 23. But remember the old disclaimer, its a M33 tome so could be incomplete.

Manchu wrote:
We do know that by M41, half of all subsequent foundings are descended directly or indirectly from Guilliman. This is in part because of the prevalance of Ultramarine successors from the Second Founding (C:SM5 p14) but more likely, given how many of the Primogenitors must have been destroyed before they could themselves split in subsequent foundings, because Adeptus Terra always favors UM geneseed when creating new chapters (C:SM5 p10). Now that I have reminded you of who actually makes the decision to found a new chapter and to do so from who's geneseed, you will be able to figure out why there are not more Unforgiven Chapters despite the stability of DA geneseed.

Remind me? Was there need to?
But sure, the high lords dislike the disobedience of the non-smurfs. Plus the DA seem more careful who to recrut and also care
to cut any ties to anything except the DA.

Manchu wrote:
Given all of this, I don't understand your insinuations of Guilliman's "influence" being forced upon everyone else. He divided his Legion into Chapters before anyone else. And even after Dorn gave in, the BT would have significantly outnumbered any other chapter. BT were the entire VII Legion, post Iron Cage, minus two thousand marines after all. The only possibly larger chapter were the Space Wolves.

Rather the entire VII legion, post siege, post cage, minus 2k. Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.
Known is the minimum size of the BT right now.

Manchu wrote:
(9) Haven't picked it up. I thought the IF Scouts story in Heroes of the Space Marines was awful.

The funny thing about this whole thread is that IF were my favorite chapter when I first got into 40k. I used to think Dorn was awesome. The Black Templars, in combination with the overwhelming awesomeness of the Space Wolves, are what changed my mind. And, as I've gotten older, I've started to think of Guilliman as what Dorn should have been. If Guilliman had been at Terra, I wonder if Horus would even have gotten into the Solar System. Attacking when he and Russ were away was the most brilliant part of Horus's strategy.

So I wasn't wrong when i got the impression your way to defend your point would make you a fine Son of Dorn.

Maybe it was the emperors plan to have the defense specialists as "home guard". Wouldn't make sense to use the UM for that.
G-Man should have organized the crusade. This would ruin the WB treachery, cause chaos can't withstand the power of order.
So I disagree with UM as "HOME GUARD".
Dorn did not so bad IMO. Don't forget the machinations of the warp creatures to cut off coms and travel. Plus the betrayal of the mechanicum. Horus was successful until he met the emperor himself. Maybe the Emperor should have cared sooner.
The arch traitors strategy looks like ambush your brothers ( RG,IH,S ) and sent off UM,SW,DA. So only 3 legios could oppose him.
And funnily, this was enough. Very brilliant strategy. 9 vs 3 and the 3 manage to keep you out until reinforcement show up.

Manchu wrote:

Morgrim wrote:If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra.

inorite especially given that FORTY companies of WB were in the Solar System under Sor Talgron, according to Visions of Heresy . . . although it should be noted that this book has Erebus and Kor Phaeron at Ultramar when Anthony Reynolds says in Dark Apostle that they were both at the Siege . . . but the fight against the WB seems harder than you think

Here are some snippets:

Alan Merrett wrote:Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers. (Visions p162)

Alan Merrett wrote:However, Guilliman's first priority was to stabalise the Ultramarines' situation. It as very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihiliation. (Visions p164)

There is no further mention of the Ultramarines until, moments before the Emperor boards the Venegeful Spirit, Horus learns that the Ultramarines have left Calth. Although he is surprised at their victory, he assumes they must be the biggest Loyalist force remaining and is highly anxious to mop things up before they arrive. (By comparison, he is not at all worried about the rapidly approaching Wolves and Scars!) This news becomes a key factor in his decision to lower the barge shields as a direct challenge the Emperor. It would seem therefore that the Ultramarines fought a long war within the Calth system, spending much of it recovering from the initial surprise attack and then taking apart and driving off Lorgar.

Tellingly, most of the UM and Guilliman were at Saturn before Horus ordered them to Veridian.

Approaching scars?
Unlikely since they fought at the gates and reclaimed a spaceport.

Maybe say the words. Dark Angels. See?
Nothing bad happens.
Could be a nice what if.
What if the emperor didn't assault horus and the DA start to ruin the siege whilst russ goes berserk on the traitors...
With sanguinius alive and the UM closing daily, those traitors wouldn't retreat to the eye. The decision who wins would been made then and 40k would be different.

I think the WB threat was more a cultist meatshield problem. Just too many buggers swarming you to get easily rid off.

But we'll see when the UM get their book ( 2nd book ).

1hadhq wrote:Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It is rumored that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance . . . Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done Without the fire of battle to engage them Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink--the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered . . . For seven days [Dorn] resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor . . . Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove . . . While [the Iron Warrior] paused [in their fight against the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage], the Ultramrines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Pertaburo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn . . . (Index Astartes II p14, my emphases)

I think we have to keep in mind that the IA is not a very reliable source and tries to make the IF look good (which is hard under the circumstances, as you can tell from this passage) given that it does not mention Dorn's near-rebellion in the face of Codex Astartes at all.

1hadhq wrote:Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.

Alan Merrett wrote:When Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists had chanced upoin the becalmed frigate Eisenstein, and met with the loyal Capatin Garro of the Death Guard, he had ordered his warfleet to Isstvan . . . Dorn had personally escorted the loyal Garro to Terra, taking with him only his elite veteran companies. The rest of Dorn's Legion had made for Isstvan. It was a significant force of arms--over thirty thousand Space Marines aboard a fleet of seventeen battle barges and assorted cruisers, with a host of smaller supporting craft. (Visions p342)

You're right that we don't know the exact number. But even if the casualties were staggeringly high, say for the sake of argument approaching 40% or so on Terra and 60% at the Iron Cage, there would have remained a force of BT, once two thousand marines had been split from Legion VII to create the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Chapters, approaching nearly ten thousand Space Marines.

Regarding Second Founding percentages: Why bother to recount what I have already calculated when (1) you yourself know the data you're using is incomplete and (2) our approximations come out to the same number? Someone's just being difficult . . .

Remember that WB was not only in strength at Calth and not using millions of cultists (phrase used in Visions) but also was employing hordes of summoned daemons. It was a very tough war that STILL resulted in few UM casualties because of Guilliman's brilliance.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It is rumored that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance . . . Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done Without the fire of battle to engage them Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink--the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered . . . For seven days [Dorn] resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor . . . Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove . . . While [the Iron Warrior] paused [in their fight against the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage], the Ultramrines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Pertaburo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn . . . (Index Astartes II p14, my emphases)

I think we have to keep in mind that the IA is not a very reliable source and tries to make the IF look good (which is hard under the circumstances, as you can tell from this passage) given that it does not mention Dorn's near-rebellion in the face of Codex Astartes at all.

1hadhq wrote:Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.

Alan Merrett wrote:When Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists had chanced upoin the becalmed frigate Eisenstein, and met with the loyal Capatin Garro of the Death Guard, he had ordered his warfleet to Isstvan . . . Dorn had personally escorted the loyal Garro to Terra, taking with him only his elite veteran companies. The rest of Dorn's Legion had made for Isstvan. It was a significant force of arms--over thirty thousand Space Marines aboard a fleet of seventeen battle barges and assorted cruisers, with a host of smaller supporting craft. (Visions p342)

You're right that we don't know the exact number. But even if the casualties were staggeringly high, say for the sake of argument approaching 40% or so on Terra and 60% at the Iron Cage, there would have remained a force of BT, once two thousand marines had been split from Legion VII to create the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Chapters, approaching nearly ten thousand Space Marines.

Regarding Second Founding percentages: Why bother to recount what I have already calculated when (1) you yourself know the data you're using is incomplete and (2) our approximations come out to the same number? Someone's just being difficult . . .

Remember that WB was not only in strength at Calth and not using millions of cultists (phrase used in Visions) but also was employing hordes of summoned daemons. It was a very tough war that STILL resulted in few UM casualties because of Guilliman's brilliance.

Moved on from chaos straight to Ultras? Gullimans brilliance-coming from a SW...scary that.

Word bearers have some issues with the truth..maybe if we get the story from the UM POV told.

So i did recount? If you really bothered to read, the numbers of successors were clarified there.
Yes, the blurb of " what the apocrypha of skaros said " is some sort of disclaimer and I am aware of that, still this chart is
unchanged since 3 editions of wh 40k.

Ten thousand space marines arent that much. Actually codex BT hints on 7-8000 BT.
I for one, hope to see the HH series keeping its path and pouring out believable numbers for legions.
What i did hear ( Ravens flight audiobook ) in a dakka thread didn't sound good. Legions with 90k of marines? WTF.
So yes, i did read that "visions of ...stuff", but it seems to get replaced by the HH series and i would not put too much validity
into a source book for a card game.

Now Index astartes is somehow different, cause it was the collected articles of the WD printed in 4 books and providing
background for all legions.
The issue is still not there since the revelation of the loss of the brotherhood of space marines hit every single marine hard.
Wasn't IF specific. And many primarchs had a vision before they left: Corax, RUSS, vulkan....
There is exactly nothing too negative to find in the article, but this is the same for all of them.
Doesn't make it incorrect.
So the old wellknown self-sacrifical and stubborn tendencies of the IF are his issue in your book.
I am terribly sorry but i can't resist to
These traits weren't a secret.

Seems it can be read in different ways.

Does that proof the BT beeing at the edge of anything? No.
Does that proof the BT are a result of insanity? No.

So what? Dorn keeping his crusade going as trade off for codex compliance is not enough?
Must there be a "dark" secret? I know its all grimdark but even the DA secret turned out not so dark as many DA haters assumed.

The chart, though stable, represents a bare minimum of knowledge. What more is there to say?

Ten thousand Space Marines aren't that much? Tell that to Roboute Guilliman. Enjoy being purged for your heresy.

I, too, think "Raven's Flight" seems a flight of fancy when it comes to the numbers. Maybe just creative license?

IA articles are correct but missing important points. Nice attempt at evading the real problem, there.

Three words: HOVERING ON THE BRINK

BT's weirdness is no secret. They out-grimdark Chaos Marines. Congratualtions: you are finally understanding the point of this thread

Once again, little argument--lots and lots of equivocation and evasion, though!

Manchu wrote:

Ten thousand Space Marines aren't that much? Tell that to Roboute Guilliman. Enjoy being purged for your heresy.

IA articles are correct but missing important points. Nice attempt at evading the real problem, there.

Three words: HOVERING ON THE BRINK

BT's weirdness is no secret. They out-grimdark Chaos Marines. Congratualtions: you are finally understanding the point of this thread

Once again, little argument--lots and lots of equivocation and evasion, though!

To evade is your style, not mine.

1) Get me g-man 's e-mail address or phone nr and we talk. Oh wait, he can't move or speak... seems a bit one sided to me then.
2) IA is correct and not incomplete. Your points aren't there, because that would make IA incorrect.
3) hovering on the brink ..of what? Your three words lack something substantial.
4) out-grimdark chaos marines? I doubt this is possible but please tell this all those whiny bunch of chaos fans.
5) I did never miss the point, but still disagree. There is no base to claim IF could turn traitor.
6) we need more participants in this thread.

*yawn* You're not offering much sport.

1hadhq wrote:1) Get me g-man 's e-mail address or phone nr and we talk. Oh wait, he can't move or speak... seems a bit one sided to me then.
2) IA is correct and not incomplete. Your points aren't there, because that would make IA incorrect.
3) hovering on the brink ..of what? Your three words lack something substantial.
4) out-grimdark chaos marines? I doubt this is possible but please tell this all those whiny bunch of chaos fans.
5) I did never miss the point, but still disagree. There is no base to claim IF could turn traitor.
6) we need more participants in this thread.

(1) nonsequitor
(2) IA is incomplete. Already addressed that. You evaded the point.
(3) The go back up a few posts and re-read the direct quotes from Index Astartes.
(4) don't get it
(5) not arguing IF will turn trader; arguing that BT are IF twisted into Grimdark par excellence by heresy; as thread is titled "Black Templars: Legacy of Heresy"
(6) Let them come!

Manchu wrote:*yawn* You're not offering much sport.
(1) nonsequitor
(2) IA is incomplete. Already addressed that. You evaded the point.
(3) The go back up a few posts and re-read the direct quotes from Index Astartes.
(4) don't get it
(5) not arguing IF will turn trader; arguing that BT are IF twisted into Grimdark par excellence by heresy; as thread is titled "Black Templars: Legacy of Heresy"
(6) Let them come!

1 =
2 = says who? Keep on with those evasive maneuvers. Gets you nowhere.
3 = Rereading doesn't change anything. Multiple legions had to wait what their primarch comes up with.
4 = shrug
5 = trader? space marines becoming merchants?
But really. Stick with your point. Just for once. please.
6 = Hope so. OTOH, i could get you tired ( youre already at level ) and imagine a lot of unrelated stuff to post here.....

No. Have to leave myself. Breakfast in 5hours awaits....

Oh good grief, are you going to start the 'fall to chaos' argument again? I thought a vague consensus had been reached. They really do have too many similarity to the Word Bearers, and enough buttons to press and hooks to latch into that they could be manipulated into doing a few minor minor deeds for chaos, maybe bring them to the point that they can see the path sliding straight down into the Eye. It could even be argued that their mental state gives them just enough brittleness that they are a step closer to the edge than some of their brother chapters.

The huge, major gaping difference is how they'd react to this. They wouldn't fall. They wouldn't take that bait, they wouldn't follow the 'easy' path, they wouldn't be able to become servants of anything but the Emperor, it's too deeply entrenched in their very nature (and less 'what happened in the past' and more 'what happened in the past has influenced what we brainwash into our neophytes' since none of them were alive during the Iron Cage incident). Rather, if they got a hint of even a small degree of heresy in their own ranks they'd drop everything to make such a vicious internal purge that the more puritan of Inquisitors would be impressed, not caring if innocents were caught up because better to send a loyal brother to the Emperor's light than to risk a traitor lurking within. Anything greater - and I think the tipping point could be as few as a dozen or so marines - or the chapter itself having been tricked on mass (far more likely than any individual marines falling, in my opinion) and the entire chapter would implode in rather spectacular fashion. Sure, some many get caught in the resulting destruction, particularly any chapters sent to figure out what on earth happened, but it would be minor compared to what would happen internally. The Black Templars just couldn't cope.

I can see all the tattered remnants regrouping, from all spread forces, and in their pain and shame and rage trying to decide what to do. And most likely making a suicidal charge to destroy chaos, so likely pursuing a large chaos force even into the Eye of Terror in the hopes of destroying enough of the enemy, and the enemy's home bases, enough to redeem themselves. Sound familiar?

After all, blood washes away dishonour.

You're getting us back on-topic so kudos.

While I find your view pretty convincing, I do take exception to it. You talk about BT as servants of the Emperor but I'm wondering what exactly that means post-Golden Throne. It seems that the Imperium is a sprawling mess with little central authority. An astoundingly disparate mass of factions all claim to be loyal to the Emperor but practice divergent and sometimes opposing methods. (Without wanting to derail again, I'll cite the Inquisition for this point.) So we know not all can be objectively loyal to the Emperor. They're loyal to their idea of who the Emperor is, which is to say they practice a form of idolatry. The most egregious offender in this regard is the Ecclesiarchy. Anyway, you can see where I'm going here: the BT are loyal to themselves inasmuch as they're loyal to the "Emperor" that they've set up in their minds/Chapter religious traditions. So my argument is that they are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it. Wouldn't it be a very neat and tidy universe if Chaos needed your consent? Well, in the grimdark Chaos uses you whether you like it or not. This is actually why BT refuse to work with psykers at all. They're obviously very concerned about being tainted. But I think their self-righteous zeal is a potential blindspot in this regard. What more dangerous agent of Chaos could there be than one who outright refused to acknowledge his fall? Meanwhile, the blackest of Dorn's despair and rage over his "failure" at Terra will always be alive and well in the customs and practices of the Black Templars. In other words, the personality flaw of Dorn that nearly led to outright civil war, perhaps accomplishing what Horus had failed to do, is embodied by the Black Templars. The spirit of overcoming that self-pity and pride and looking with hope to the future seems to have been passed on to the Crimson Fists--just look at their valiant reaction to losing their home world. In summary, the BT are a disaster waiting to happen.

Manchu wrote:You're getting us back on-topic so kudos.

While I find your view pretty convincing, I do take exception to it. You talk about BT as servants of the Emperor but I'm wondering what exactly that means post-Golden Throne. It seems that the Imperium is a sprawling mess with little central authority. An astoundingly disparate mass of factions all claim to be loyal to the Emperor but practice divergent and sometimes opposing methods. (Without wanting to derail again, I'll cite the Inquisition for this point.) So we know not all can be objectively loyal to the Emperor. They're loyal to their idea of who the Emperor is, which is to say they practice a form of idolatry. The most egregious offender in this regard is the Ecclesiarchy. Anyway, you can see where I'm going here: the BT are loyal to themselves inasmuch as they're loyal to the "Emperor" that they've set up in their minds/Chapter religious traditions. So my argument is that they are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it. Wouldn't it be a very neat and tidy universe if Chaos needed your consent? Well, in the grimdark Chaos uses you whether you like it or not. This is actually why BT refuse to work with psykers at all. They're obviously very concerned about being tainted. But I think their self-righteous zeal is a potential blindspot in this regard. What more dangerous agent of Chaos could there be than one who outright refused to acknowledge his fall? Meanwhile, the blackest of Dorn's despair and rage over his "failure" at Terra will always be alive and well in the customs and practices of the Black Templars. In other words, the personality flaw of Dorn that nearly led to outright civil war, perhaps accomplishing what Horus had failed to do, is embodied by the Black Templars. The spirit of overcoming that self-pity and pride and looking with hope to the future seems to have been passed on to the Crimson Fists--just look at their valiant reaction to losing their home world. In summary, the BT are a disaster waiting to happen.

Pouring out such wall o text and still refusing to admit your claims of BT gone traitor?

Sorry, the only disaster is the catastrophe that befalls those who oppose the BT. But keep on.

Admit my claims of BT gone traitor? I'm confused. What do you mean?

Manchu wrote:Admit my claims of BT gone traitor? I'm confused. What do you mean?

How about this one:

"So my argument is that they are already fallen"
"are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it."

i see what you did there....

The differences between chapters in their POV about the Emperor makes all of them subjectivly loyal and I would go to the point
where i consider beeing objectively loyal as nigh impossible for humans and their descendants.
Do you really try to say any of the 9 legions were objectively loyal when they lacked an emperor walking amongst them?

What I'm saying is that the SW are loyal to what the Emperor wanted them to be--his wild attack dogs. UM are loyal to what E wanted all other SM to be like: trying to make galaxy a better place for humans (which SW also go out of their way to do). BT are loyal to redeeming and defending their own honor. If humans benefit, great. If humans get in the way, they die. DA, similarly, are loyal to keeping their secret and stamping out the Fallen. If it comes to a choice between this and helping humanity, they pick the former. Understand now?

So SW drink too much and have visions what the emperor wanted then...

We'll see what the double HH books make of your idea of the intend of the emperor with his long haired unwashed sons.

Since you know his intend, maybe tell us about the 2 lost legions then?

Ok, I'll play nice.

Who is more dangerous to a normal human:
- a BA
- a BT
- a DA
- a IH
- a SW
- a WS

Now? Any given order?

This is a bit off-topic, IMO. But I'll indulge.

From most to least dangerous:

- BT: every outsider is a potential victim
- DA: humans might get in the way of their internal problems and if they do that's it for them
- IH: sympathies with Mechanicum may mean they lack sympathy with humanity (have executed innocents before)
- BA: unfortunately, black rage can take one of them at any moment--otherwise, they're alright
- WS: not really a thread, but don't go out of their way to help, either
- SW: along with Salamanders, traditionally most compassionate Legion and Chapter

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:
6) we need more participants in this thread.

Alright, I'll bite. I've been following this very interesting thread from the start, and here are my two cents, for what little they're worth.

I've spent a good bit of time weighing the available material and the arguments for and against. A couple of thoughts, before my point.

1. Obviously, any examination of the fluff of the 40k universe can be complicated by conflicting claims in various pieces of fluff from different authors and eras, even when limiting oneself to only citing canonical sources. It's largely pointless to debate the relative merits of this or that piece of canon fluff, in my opinion. In the end, that argument can run on at length and likely never be settled. Rather, it is perhaps most worthwhile to construct an argument using any and all fluff available that supports your point.

2. The 40k universe is a work of fiction that is unique in its depth and character, and likely unique again in its interpretation by any given fan. Any interpretation of the flavor and themes, or even of the history, is likely to be very subjective.

For my part, I see the beauty of the 40k universe in its myriad shades of grey. I love the way there are no truly "good guys" the way there are in so many other, more simplistic works of science fiction (or indeed, even many very mature ones). I am enchanted by the way that nearly everything tends toward the black. Because of this (which is admittedly only the 40k-verse through my personal lens) I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Furthermore, it seems readily apparent that even the Templars themselves don't believe that (else why the extreme measures take to distance themselves from the mutant and the psyker?).

I can imagine a very similar argument if we were discussing Warhammer 30k, in some parallel world where no one knew how the events of the Horus Heresy would unfold. "If there's one chapter that will never fall, it's the Word Bearers. I mean come on, look how much they love the Emperor. They worship him as a god!"

So, for what it's worth, after days and days of mulling this over I suppose I come down on Manchu's side.

Edited twice, because I'm dumb at posting.

Shane wrote:I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Man, I wish you had posted this sooner as it is pretty brilliant and captures something that I've been wanting but failing to say effectively for a while now. TBH, however, if 1hadhq ever relented in this thread . . . a little bit of my love for 40k would probably die. He's a true Black Templar, through and through.

Hehehe. I've read enough to realize how foolish it would be to think I could sway 1hadhq. My intent was more to state my thoughts as well as I could, in part as a "thank you" to both of you, to let you know that I (and presumably others) appreciate seeing such a thorough, fiery, and overall relatively civil debate. And on the internet, of all places. Who'd have thunk it?

The Black Templar are loyal to their vision of the Emperor, yes. Is it identical to what the Emperor would be were he alive? No, he'd probably end up facepalming and then ordering all chapters to sit down, shut up, and telling them this is how he wants them to behave and what they should do while muttering to himself about flawed geneseed and overzealism and grudges ten thousand years old and that making a poison specifically so it is powerful enough to get past your anti-poison organ and then consuming it is kind of missing the point. And deciding that the Ecclesiarchy is way too close to comfort to the Word Bearers and attempting to nudge them slowly to something safer, while preparing to use the Space Marines as a stick if needed, cautiously so as not to ignite yet another civil war.

Alright, being sensible now.

They are loyal to their view of the Emperor, and their view seems to be that all xenos and all who stand against the Imperium are a threat to its security and must not be allowed to harm it. Therefore they will go to great lengths to exterminate these beings. If some innocent and loyal citizens happen to be caught in the crossfire, it is unfortunate and their sacrifice should be acknowledged, but it should never make one hesitate or falter. They die and pass to the Emperor's grace, and even the lives of an entire planet is but a drop in the ocean to the Imperium as a whole. It's the old 'the death of a few to save the lives of many' argument. In that way, yes they are worse for those around them and show little care; on a broader view, they see themselves as having to do what must be done, no matter the cost.

Now, as for the chaos acts: as I said before, I do think this means they could be tricked into doing some acts that serve chaos. But they also loathe chaos with every fiber of their being, because it was chaos that the Emperor was fighting against, it was chaos that scattered the primachs and damaged the Emperor's glorious vision and plans, and most cuttingly it was chaos that corrupted half the legions, at least one third of the space marines in total (I'm accounting for some legions being bigger than others and the fact that the fallen legions still had to purge loyalists from their ranks) and shattered the power of both the crusades and of the space marines themselves, and it was chaos that rendered their beloved Emperor a shell of his former self.

This is why I think that the very instant the Black Templars learnt they had been duped into aiding those they loathe above all, all of their rage and hatred is going to immediately turn inwards. It's not that they are immune to chaos, arguable nobody is. It's that they couldn't be considered effective pawns of it. They might be walking along the edge of a knife, and not be the only chapter to be doing so, but it doesn't matter which way they fall; it will be swift, it will be bloody, and it will be over. Total fallout a few chapters, a few planets, a decent whack of stores and ships and a nasty headache for the Inquisition. There are much, much ways such a thing could otherwise turn (imagine Huron with greater numbers, his allies, and a powerful loyalty to chaos. Not good at all).

This is my feeling, at least. Perhaps 'fall' is subjective. I'm not sure if the above is a fall or self immolation.

This thread is my favorite one ever on dakka, which I realize is a little arrogant, but I really haven't seen better discussion. I think it helps that 1hadhq and I are given to slipping into the fluff perspectives sometimes. I think we're about done with it, however, unless someone were to come along and throw us for a loop on some angle we've totally missed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before I give a detailed response, Morgrim, how would you respond to 1hadhq's danger rating challenge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgrim wrote:It's not that they are immune to chaos, arguable nobody is. It's that they couldn't be considered effective pawns of it.

If I were Teentch, BT would be my favorite pawns of all time. Where's the fun in being willingly obeyed when you're the god of deceit?

Most to least, then.

Dark Angels: The worst, without a doubt. If you have seen something you shouldn't have, they will kill you, and think nothing of it if it means concealing their secret shame or discovering one of the Fallen. There aren't many chapters willing to capture and torture someone for information (not 100% sure they do this to non-marines, but I can imagine them doing so) and to kill you if you happen to see them fighting a Fallen. Especially if that fallen is wearing iconography that identifies them as being from the Dark Angel legion and/or makes sneering comments about the same.

Blood Angels: They will do much to protect you, especially if you are in a hive city under attack. The main danger is if you happen to be near the front lines and the Death Company comes at you. The main danger from them is thus friendly fire. It just happens to be rather deadly, controlled, but common friendly fire. Remove the Death Co and they'd be down with the White Scars.

Black Templars: About on par with Blood Angels, I think. They are going to protect the people of the Imperium, but given their values it is a more abstract way than a specific group of people. Well, maybe if they were the Sisters of Silence (but they're not normal). If you're a psyker, you're dead, but also not normal. If they think you're a heretic... you're in trouble; again though, I'll argue that your everyday citizen is not going to be acting in such a way that they could be accused of heresy unless they happened to be in close proximaty to someone who was. So no more dangerous than the Inquisition. Your views on how dangerous the Inquisition are may vary.

Iron Hands: For the most part, same level as White Scars. Indeed, their ties to the Mechanium may make them more in touch with some humans, since they are interacting with non-genetically modified tech priests. This is probably cancelled out by significant use of servetors. I don't think they'd look down there nose at normal humans, just that they'd respect techpriests more. So equal fifth.

White Scars: Normal marines, quite neutral to humans. They will defend a hive because they are defending resources and defeating the enemy just as much as because they are defending humans. Actually, not quite true, but the humans that they are fighting for are slightly more abstract, less individual, and thus they wouldn't go out of their way for a normal, human, unimportant individual. Neither would they harm one. The other fifth.

Space Wolves: Tend to have a rather compasionate view of humans, are probably one of the chapters that actually keep the closest ties to their own humanity, along with Salamanders. Some second founding and below probably do to, but they rarely get raised in the fluff.


And yes, I can see Tzeentch having a field day with them. But he would have to be very careful, and very restrained. Doing something like he did to the Blood Angels wouldn't work, I don't think. Again, it would be a case of never letting them find you out or figure out what you were doing, because if they do the game is up. So less being used to attack the Imperium, and more nudging them towards targets you'd rather taken out, like warbands of rival gods or eldar sticking their noses where it doesn't belong yet haven't unravelled that you're doing anything their yet. Such acts would still have to be serving the Imperium, though, just doing double duty. That does give the option of setting them up for a fall at a later date, though, and arguably GW could do that tomorrow if they chose to. Not going to happen unless they're pulling the codex, though.

I'll echo enjoying these sort of threads. I'm fond of the dark eldar one previous.

Some interesting quotations.

[The Black Templars] will mercilessly wipe out populations of worlds to expunge the sin of heresy, while the mere presence of a witch on the battlefield drives them into a rage of hate and vengeful bloodletting. (Index Astartes II p47)

So DA kill a few witness, BA (who are out of their minds) kill the odd friendly in the cross fire, but Templars burn whole worlds. Yeah, I think they go at the top of the list. The only Imperial faction that goes ahead of them on that list is the Inquisition.
back on-topic, however.

Although his captains called for a breakout, Rogal Dorn would not give the order. He refused to believe the evidence of his eyes and continued to call for one last charge or for Perturabo to face him. Unable to abandon their Primarch, the Imperial Fists prepared to die with him . . . Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue . . . Rogal Dorn was a broken man. It was nineteen years before the Imperial Fists could once again go to war. They left over 400 Marines at the Eternal Fortress and every refugee carried horrific wounds. (Index Astartes I p36, my empahses)

There you have it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Iron Hands:

The anger and hatred the Iron Hands feel toward weakness grows daily. They are increasingly doubtful of the strength and worth of their brother Chapters, becoming resigned to the fact that they alone can stamp out the deficiencies that they see besetting humanity from all sides. (Index Astartes III p49)

And just in case you think this could be interpreted to be a good thing . . .

[After re conquering the planet Shardenus and then the rest of the Contqual system t]he Iron Hands executed one in every three citizens in an intensive mass cleansing, a punishment and a warning to remain ever vigilant against the inherent dangers of weakness. (Index Astartes III p50)

If SW had been there, they would have killed one in three Iron Hands as a punishment and warning not to be such giant dickheads to the people they were supposed to protect. I can't help but think of Logan at Armageddon 1 or Tu'Shan at Armageddon 3. But in the Grimdark, everyone loves to be hurt. This mass murder apparently resulted in praise for and devotion to the Iron Hands in the Contqual system. IRL, I believe this might be called some variation on Stockholm Syndrome.

Manchu wrote:This is a bit off-topic, IMO. But I'll indulge.

From most to least dangerous:

- BT: every outsider is a potential victim
- DA: humans might get in the way of their internal problems and if they do that's it for them
- IH: sympathies with Mechanicum may mean they lack sympathy with humanity (have executed innocents before)
- BA: unfortunately, black rage can take one of them at any moment--otherwise, they're alright
- WS: not really a thread, but don't go out of their way to help, either
- SW: along with Salamanders, traditionally most compassionate Legion and Chapter

Really?
It could depend on your person. Any non-psyker/mutant is as safe with templars as can be with most space marines.
If youre part of those 2 groups, then youre dead.
DA got a bit reduced in "the hunt" since it was dismissed in the codex. Could be dangerous to know too much. But the same goes for the inquisition. Still possible to listen to reasons ( SW+DA ) to focus on the real mission.
The hands suffer from beeing ignored in C:SM and their tiny fluff insists on "flesh is weak", so if youre not fighting against
the enemy then youre a viable target for violence.
BA- we'll see how the fluff flows when the new dex hits, but IMO it will keep the impression of accidents happening ( friendly HTH ?)
The scars may not really harm someone. Rather neutral but remember they live with nomads so some hardships may not be
such thing for them.Doesn't mean lack of compassion.
Oh his woofies. Normally i could agree but I think we should not forget the drawbacks of the "wulfen" (lack of control).
Maybe accidents aren't impossible.

Manchu wrote:

Shane wrote:I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Man, I wish you had posted this sooner as it is pretty brilliant and captures something that I've been wanting but failing to say effectively for a while now. TBH, however, if 1hadhq ever relented in this thread . . . a little bit of my love for 40k would probably die. He's a true Black Templar, through and through.

The argument has the merits of proved resistance vs chaos.
Maybe too much High fantasy in my non-40k life?
Would wholeheartly agree that the "good guys" sticker really hurt the T'au. Most "greater good " threads go down because this
incompatibility with the grimdark.

Shane wrote:Hehehe. I've read enough to realize how foolish it would be to think I could sway 1hadhq. My intent was more to state my thoughts as well as I could, in part as a "thank you" to both of you, to let you know that I (and presumably others) appreciate seeing such a thorough, fiery, and overall relatively civil debate. And on the internet, of all places. Who'd have thunk it?

youre welcome.

Morgrim wrote:Most to least, then.

Dark Angels: The worst, without a doubt. If you have seen something you shouldn't have, they will kill you, and think nothing of it if it means concealing their secret shame or discovering one of the Fallen. There aren't many chapters willing to capture and torture someone for information (not 100% sure they do this to non-marines, but I can imagine them doing so) and to kill you if you happen to see them fighting a Fallen. Especially if that fallen is wearing iconography that identifies them as being from the Dark Angel legion and/or makes sneering comments about the same.

Blood Angels: They will do much to protect you, especially if you are in a hive city under attack. The main danger is if you happen to be near the front lines and the Death Company comes at you. The main danger from them is thus friendly fire. It just happens to be rather deadly, controlled, but common friendly fire. Remove the Death Co and they'd be down with the White Scars.

Black Templars: About on par with Blood Angels, I think. They are going to protect the people of the Imperium, but given their values it is a more abstract way than a specific group of people. Well, maybe if they were the Sisters of Silence (but they're not normal). If you're a psyker, you're dead, but also not normal. If they think you're a heretic... you're in trouble; again though, I'll argue that your everyday citizen is not going to be acting in such a way that they could be accused of heresy unless they happened to be in close proximaty to someone who was. So no more dangerous than the Inquisition. Your views on how dangerous the Inquisition are may vary.

Iron Hands: For the most part, same level as White Scars. Indeed, their ties to the Mechanium may make them more in touch with some humans, since they are interacting with non-genetically modified tech priests. This is probably cancelled out by significant use of servetors. I don't think they'd look down there nose at normal humans, just that they'd respect techpriests more. So equal fifth.

White Scars: Normal marines, quite neutral to humans. They will defend a hive because they are defending resources and defeating the enemy just as much as because they are defending humans. Actually, not quite true, but the humans that they are fighting for are slightly more abstract, less individual, and thus they wouldn't go out of their way for a normal, human, unimportant individual. Neither would they harm one. The other fifth.

Space Wolves: Tend to have a rather compasionate view of humans, are probably one of the chapters that actually keep the closest ties to their own humanity, along with Salamanders. Some second founding and below probably do to, but they rarely get raised in the fluff.


And yes, I can see Tzeentch having a field day with them. But he would have to be very careful, and very restrained. Doing something like he did to the Blood Angels wouldn't work, I don't think. Again, it would be a case of never letting them find you out or figure out what you were doing, because if they do the game is up. So less being used to attack the Imperium, and more nudging them towards targets you'd rather taken out, like warbands of rival gods or eldar sticking their noses where it doesn't belong yet haven't unravelled that you're doing anything their yet. Such acts would still have to be serving the Imperium, though, just doing double duty. That does give the option of setting them up for a fall at a later date, though, and arguably GW could do that tomorrow if they chose to. Not going to happen unless they're pulling the codex, though.

I'll echo enjoying these sort of threads. I'm fond of the dark eldar one previous.

Interesting order of threats.

As posted before., BA are renown to have even space marines refuse to fight alongside.
Still some good points about the others.

From the alphabetical order to my list:

- BA ( black rage, red thirst, upcoming rage USR! )
- DA ( capturing , accidents )
- BT ( danger rather focused on 2 groups but colletaral damage could be martyrs )
- IH ( lack the compassion, focused on logic )
- SW ( wulfen )
- WS ( least dangerous )


The point with agents misguiding forces isn't BT specific and can hit any force. Serving 2 purposes at once means both benefit.
As long as the emperor and mankind benefit, any action could be sanctioned. Look at the HH series. Killing off whole empires if they
do not comply isn't news.

Added reply to Manchu:
Since we all know that space marines will burn whole worlds if they are beyond salvation, where is the point with BT?
Additionally, quoting only 50% tends to ignore the context. G-Man didn't want to risk Dorn to kill perturabo.
Yes IH got only those fluff bit. A case of lack of background.

Unlike BA in the Black Rage, SW have some control over the Wulfen state--both in terms of entering it and when they are in it. Also, most SW completely overcome the Curse and are never subject to it after initiation. Besides the Black Rage/Red Thirst problem, BA are not a bad chapter at all. Sanguinius was an awesome Primarch and is still revered around the Imperium as a saint. Unlike DA, Iron Hands, and BT, BA have no doctrine or agenda that would set them at odds with civilians. That is why I put BA below those Chapters.

Quoting out of context? That's outright dishonest and insulting after all the trouble I've gone to. The word-for-word quote is provided in context. I have assumed that you have not been quoting sources (despite constantly demanding that I should do so) because you did not want to be burdened with translating German into English and resulting arguments. But you ought to be a bit more respectful given how compliant I have been. I'm not actually making this stuff up. It's in canonical sources. You're counter-argument is growing weaker and weaker, I think.

The Iron Hand fluff is what it is. They're heartless inhuman bastards who think they're better than other Marines much less regular humans.

SM may burn a world "beyond salvation" but BT do it to "purge the sin of heresy." That's not the same thing as "beyond salvation"--that has the ring of punishment to it, especially in light of the rest of the quote (Herr Kontext!) about a "rage of hate and vengeful bloodletting."

Manchu wrote:

Quoting out of context? That's outright dishonest and insulting after all the trouble I've gone to. The word-for-word quote is provided in context.

The Iron Hand fluff is what it is. They're heartless inhuman bastards who think they're better than other Marines much less regular humans.

SM may burn a world "beyond salvation" but BT do it to "purge the sin of heresy." That's not the same thing as "beyond salvation"--that has the ring of punishment to it.

There was no offense meant, sorry. Did get the impression such marks => ..... show where cuts are and I don't think these cuts
are neccessary or supporting the point. My apologies to get it across as accusation of rewording.
Please mind that cuts tend to left something out.

Heartless inhuman => ad mech Close ties have their drawbacks.

Punishment is always part of the doctrine of the adeptus astartes.

Yes, the ellipses do indicate that I have left out parts, sometimes whole paragraphs on the same page, because I don't really feel like re-typing an entire codex or Astartes entry when those parts are not relevant to the quote. But you have the same sources so you can look up what I'm leaving out. Using ellipses is being honest, not misquoting, quoting out of context, or otherwise deceiving.

Heretics, traitors, mutants, witches, and aliens require punishment. Civilians that do not fall into those categories do not. Any other view is not from the Codex Astartes or even the Emperor but rather the particular neurosis of an unbalanced chapter.

Manchu wrote:Heretics, traitors, mutants, witches, and aliens require punishment.

Exactly the factions that receive it from BT. And only those.

Since you like to quote fluff so much, why not provide fluff where BT hurt innocents?

Already did. I even explained that the reason they're so dangerous is that they think no one is innocent ('cept themselves, of course) and so purging a whole planet is no big deal. "You allowed heresy on your planet! That's heresy!"

How about you quote some fluff with BT standing up for civilians?

No you didn't . Instead we hear about the grimdarkness of BT whilst ignoring the grimdark for everyone.
All or nothing. more grimdark for all of us

So I have to quote, because there is nothing to support your point?

Yes, I did.

Quote (or even provide a reference and page number if you don't want to translate) an instance of Salamanders, White Scars, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, or even Crimson/Imperial Fists murdering an entire planet's population "to purge the sin of heresy." I've done all the work in this thread so far.

Okay, Manchu and 1hadhq have proven I desperately need to brush up on my Space Marine fluff. Although I stand by the Black Rage being dangerous, but often exaggerated. It's the fact that it is recurring and predictable that brings as much suspicion as it does, I think. Most people would be highly edgy if they knew it was a near certainty their allies would be bringing enraged bersekers who couldn't tell friend from foe and would beat you with the arm you'd just blown off. That seems a rather good reason to be nervous, and the Inquisition may be wary of it because it is both traceable to chaos influences, although not caused by them but rather caused by the desire to destroy them, and because it does bear unfortunate similarities to the servants of khorne when they are in the grips of it even if it is brought about by different means and partially directable. They may feel that a better option would be to immediately imprison or execute those who have fallen to the black rage, rather than risk them turning on others. The Blood Angels will never do this of course, since they all desire to die in battle and take their foes with them instead of being locked away for the rest of their existence.

The suspicions of the Inquisition are hardly the measuring stick of what is good or bad for humanity and the Imperium, as I have said before.

Manchu wrote:

Quote (or even provide a reference and page number if you don't want to translate) an instance of Salamanders, White Scars, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, or even Crimson/Imperial Fists murdering an entire planet's population "to purge the sin of heresy." I've done all the work in this thread so far.

Huh?

Poor Manchu did all the work in HIS thread.

But IF youre really that into the fluff, then your request to quote an instance where Salamanders or white scars or crimson fists
did purge the whole population is just soo far from any reasonable response it leaves me with only one option:



Wouldn't be too sure about Blood Angels. Part of them are the flesh tearers and those had already some bloody accidents.....

So he thinks Ultras wouldn't purge for misreading their holy codicium gullymanensis?
Think about ventris and which "offence to the UM" got him exiled.

The space wolves purged Prospero for the sin of heresy.
But there was none. Read the comments for the coming BL books.


So this brings us to the real threat: the inquisition and its chambers militant. Usually, sisters would cleanse the polpulation of
planets. Space marines tend to care for the main threat and leave the rest to the imperial guard.
Now, the =I= may not trust SM or IG but will rely on the stromtroopers and sisters.

No heresy on Prospero? Really? You might as well just run up the white flag. This last post of yours was a total surrender. Well, it was good fight while it lasted.

Manchu wrote:No heresy on Prospero? Really? You might as well just run up the white flag. This last post of yours was a total surrender. Well, it was good fight while it lasted.

So YOU give up?

Fine.

Don't read those SW/TS books then.

didnt the iron hands do something similar where they killed 1 out of ten citizens after some heresy just to say dont do it again or well kill the rest of you that could be consider over the top by some ?? havent heard the bt doing that yet

On the topic of Prospero: Sorcery is heresy. That said, the pupehs weren't supposed to burn the planet.

On the topic of Ventris: Ventris got exiled for being stupid. "Hurr the Deathwatch is off to go do what they're specially trained and equipped to do. I'd better hop on top of their Rhinos cuz I'm a super muhren and once upon a time I fought some bugs. Oh wait, yer captain died? I'd better paint myself black and abandon my company to go gamboling about with you."

RustyKnight wrote:On the topic of Prospero: Sorcery is heresy. That said, the pupehs weren't supposed to burn the planet.

And thus, knowing of heresy does not entitle to ruin whole worlds.


So we have proof of SW "cleansing" a population.
Still waiting for any evidence of BT performing such "achievement".

The Spehss Puppehs only cleansed Prospero because Horus told them it was the Big E's wishes.

I think that act of the Space Marines fits firmly into the already established category 'tricked by chaos and Tzeentch in particular'. And did they attack all the civilians? I thought they were going for the Thousand Sons fortress monastery. Wasting time on civilians and giving your opponent time to organise a defence doesn't seem like a particularly good idea, and while Russ was impulsive he wasn't stupid.

Manchu wrote:Already did. I even explained that the reason they're so dangerous is that they think no one is innocent ('cept themselves, of course) and so purging a whole planet is no big deal. "You allowed heresy on your planet! That's heresy!"

How about you quote some fluff with BT standing up for civilians?

"Upon commencement of the Season of Fire, Grimaldus was honoured with the title 'Hero of Helsreach', the greatest honor its inhabitants could grant."

2nd Purging of Lastrai - "Marshal Gervhart ordered the planet cleansed of its degenerate inhabitants before continuing the crusade, while those deemed free from taint were allowed to live - an act of mercy that was to have repercussions for marshal Gervhart in later years"

"Helbrecht, like many descendants of Dorn, had always prided himself on his willingness to cooperate with other elements of the monolithic Imperial institutions, and his skill at negotiation and delegation proved pivotal."

These contradict your earlier statements Manchu. How can a fallen chapter be so reasonable in the unreasonable world of 40k?

crazykiwi wrote:didnt the iron hands do something similar where they killed 1 out of ten citizens after some heresy just to say dont do it again or well kill the rest of you that could be consider over the top by some ?? havent heard the bt doing that yet

One out of three, source already quoted above.

RustyKnight wrote:On the topic of Prospero: Sorcery is heresy. That said, the pupehs weren't supposed to burn the planet.

"Heresy" is not the right word in any case for that time period. The word is disobedience. The Emperor told Magnus in a face-to-face meeting with other Primarchs present to stop dabbling in magic. Magnus persisted and the Emperor commanded him brought to Terra. Horus passed on that command to Russ as "destroy Prospero." So the example is moot. Nice try, 1hadhq, but you fail again.

Durandal wrote:These contradict your earlier statements Manchu. How can a fallen chapter be so reasonable in the unreasonable world of 40k?

First of all, a source requires citation in the form of book title/edition and page number. Secondly, the first and third quotations prove nothing. The massacred inhabitants of the Contqual subsector thanked the Iron Hands for their punishment. Similarly, working with other parts of the Imperium does not necessarily mean you are compassionate. To the extent that the second quotation shows compassion--which I admit it does--it shows it as the exception to the rule and as a mistake. It's nowhere near enough to outweigh the rest of their reputation.

Manchu wrote:"Heresy" is not the right word in any case for that time period. The word is disobedience. The Emperor told Magnus in a face-to-face meeting with other Primarchs present to stop dabbling in magic. Magnus persisted and the Emperor commanded him brought to Terra. Horus passed on that command to Russ as "destroy Prospero." So the example is moot. Nice try, 1hadhq, but you fail again.

Try?

Granted your false claims the emperors mercy

Or, to simplify: ITs wellknown and undisputed that the SW utterly ruined prospero. Plus getting used by chaos.
Both points you've applied to BT, but can't prove. Instead got served. Accept it.

Manchu wrote:First of all, a source requires citation in the form of book title/edition and page number. Secondly, the first and third quotations prove nothing. The massacred inhabitants of the Contqual subsector thanked the Iron Hands for their punishment. Similarly, working with other parts of the Imperium does not necessarily mean you are compassionate. To the extent that the second quotation shows compassion--which I admit it does--it shows it as the exception to the rule and as a mistake. It's nowhere near enough to outweigh the rest of their reputation.

Which reputation do you imagine here?

Plus I find your demands highly questionable.

Maybe GM Helbrecht (at Gemenon majoris ) can enlighten you :

"Der wille des Imperators ruht auf uns, wenn wir die Lasterhaften und Unreinen vernichten um die Galaxis in seinem Namen
zurückerobern. Der Imperator führt die Galaxis zur Rechtschaffenheit, und so müssen wir sein Urteil über die schlechten erbitten..
denn es ist ein Urteil ohne Gnade."

Or chaplain Grimaldus:

"Der finsternis bringe ich Feuer. Dem Unwissenden bringe ich Glauben. Jene die diese Geschenke annehmen,
mögen leben - doch ich werde nichts als Tod und ewige Verdammnis über alle bringen, die sie zurückweisen."

Go fetch da quote, Manchu.

Hint: the marines on the cover wear black power armor...

1hadhq wrote:ITs wellknown and undisputed that the SW utterly ruined prospero. Plus getting used by chaos.

Your argument is an excellent example of what I mean by inadvertent traitor and servant of Chaos. Not Russ but you yourself.

obwohl mein Deutsch jetzt nur so so ist . ..

Helbrecht, p34: This is exactly what I've been talking about: "The Emperor's will is what we say."

Grimaldus, p18: And who decides who has refused?

My quotes are from the BT codex, ref Helbrecht and Grimaldus entries and the descriptions of the various crusades.

You cannot dismiss the quotes so easily. As I have said before the people of Armageddon see the BT as heros who have saved them from total destruction at the hands of the Orks. Grimaldus didn't get his award for purging humans.

Also, a warrior who prides himself on getting along well with other imperial institutions can hardly be a ball of grief and rage fallen to the dark whispers of chaos.

Your premise that the BT are consumed by hate and self loathing and therefore a fallen chapter is directly contradicted by examples of BT leaders showing compassion and reason. If the BT were created as evil fanatics then they would always be evil fanatics. Instead we have Marines who are amped up but still functional.

Durandal, dunno if you have read this whole thread or just forgotten what it's about BUT the point is not that BT are fallen to Chaos. Rather, they are fallen relative to the original intentions of the Emperor. Instead of bringing the light of reason to the galaxy, they bring the "light" (read: fires) of faith (read: superstition). Yes, they fight against Chaos and xenos. No argument from me (from the beginning) on that score. But I maintain that they do so primarily to vindicate their own honor because their origin lies in Dorn's guilt complex. If some regular humans are saved in the process, great. But should they be perceived as getting in the way, then they would be written off as heretics or (unwilling) martyrs and purged en masse--"let the Throne sort them out." If you're going to pretend that the BT are mostly portrayed as reasonable and compassionate, so be it. But that's not what GW has actually done with them.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:ITs wellknown and undisputed that the SW utterly ruined prospero. Plus getting used by chaos.

Your argument is an excellent example of what I mean by inadvertent traitor and servant of Chaos. Not Russ but you yourself.

obwohl mein Deutsch jetzt nur so so ist . ..

Helbrecht, p34: This is exactly what I've been talking about: "The Emperor's will is what we say."

Grimaldus, p18: And who decides who has refused?

Since you seem to find the page, why consider it not as useful to actually take the speeches as what they are?
They're not different from any other battle sermon.
The BT specific ones aren't more aggressive than SoB sermons. Think about it.

I think you got the 40k templars mixed with historic templars.

In 40k, a lot goes the cinematic road and cheering up the soldiery is done in length. Normally, space marines would just give short and precise orders, but that may not appeal to the fanbase. ( no offense to the fanbase ).

In historic crusades, the answer is always : Deus Vult.
Simple. Claim your actions are sanctioned and all is well.

My point still stands. BT got a payload of "11th AD crusades in space" to make them different enough for their own codex.
This does not warrant to paint them blacker as they are. And for BT, there is no source to prove genocide or treachery.
The BT did never relent in their duty to the Emperor.
Would you really make such lowly move to claim BT are unreasonable?
Sorry but that doesn't cut it.

The BT are relatively new, so yes its not so much there to draw quotes from.
( but its IMO one of the best codices from a technical POV. )
Still its a codex intended to cover a crusade.
Maybe page 14 second paragraph explains the crusade of the BT better than i seem to do.

Its surprising how one can assume a chapter does not follow the Vision of the E. but also ignore that the imperial truth
isn't used anymore since the ecclesiarchy is part of the hierachy of the adeptii of the imperium.
His vision was to relieve mankind from its oppressors. No longer possible now without a Empeor to lead directly.

So forth to your nonsense of me = servant of chaos.
Don't know if i should lol or sob.
Seriously, your oh so mighty favourite primarch was easily played by the traitors and his decisions benefitted horus , not the
allfather. Shouldn't it smell a bit when your dad sent you to fetch a brother you dislike? Really?

But again, we will see. The comments hint on loyal vs loyal. So Russ took the best librarians from the side of the Emperor.
Only hate for psykers? Sounds similar to templars.....

Hmm, Magnus really was a traitor. His fall was hastened by Russ's suspicions and Horus's treachery. But it was bound to happen sooner or later given his contempt for the Emperor's orders. Plus, E really did send Russ after Magnus. Horus did not make this part up. E wanted Magnus brought to Terra in chains. Horus wanted Russ distracted by fighting Magnus so he told Russ that E wanted Magnus dead and Prospero crushed. Russ was certainly game for that. (Wonder what Magnus thought about Horus's treachery when he found out if he ever did . . .)

I fully agree that BT and SoB are both corruptions of E's vision and are both highly dangerous forces. I think the some of the Chapters are the ONLY Imperial faction out there that are in any way true to the Emperor's vision. The pity is that the BT are not one of them. They're caught up in the Grimdark so badly they don't seem to remember what things were like during the Great Crusade. They seemed to have forgotten the real Emperor and to have replaced Him with their preferred idol, the God-Emperor. This is saddening and frightening. And I think it traces back to Dorn's grief/guilt/madness.

C:BT is no doubt an awesome codex.

I think Magnus wasn't lost before russ attacked him. Maybe another primarch could have ruined horus plans and get magnus back to the Emperor. Would be dangerous for Horus, Magnus could have known who turned and who stayed loyal.
But we'll see this year where BL moves the story. IMO this will warrant its own thread then.

I also think that most beeings in the Imperium do not follow his vision in the actual time of M42.
But, is it really a surprise when 10 millenia shift the views ?
Nearly lost memories are all that is left of the great crusade.

Still the fire is kept alive. And will shine again.

My point still stands. BT got a payload of "11th AD crusades in space" to make them different enough for their own codex.
This does not warrant to paint them blacker as they are. And for BT, there is no source to prove genocide or treachery.
The BT did never relent in their duty to the Emperor.
Would you really make such lowly move to claim BT are unreasonable?
Sorry but that doesn't cut it.

Unfortunately, this paragraph pretty much negates your entire argument, as you yourself have admitted them to be similar or based on the historic crusaders, however a lot of them (the historic crusaders) were self-centered so-and-so's who pretty much used the fact that they were crusading for God to commit some really barbaric acts, but you could never say that they were acting out God's plan for Humanity. This is pretty much BT style, I'm not saying they're self centered but they are still using the Emperor as an excuse to commit these mis-deeds and you certainatly couldn't say they were Enacting the Emperors will, which I think is what Manchu is trying to say.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

My point still stands. BT got a payload of "11th AD crusades in space" to make them different enough for their own codex.
This does not warrant to paint them blacker as they are. And for BT, there is no source to prove genocide or treachery.
The BT did never relent in their duty to the Emperor.
Would you really make such lowly move to claim BT are unreasonable?
Sorry but that doesn't cut it.

Unfortunately, this paragraph pretty much negates your entire argument, as you yourself have admitted them to be similar or based on the historic crusaders, however a lot of them (the historic crusaders) were self-centered so-and-so's who pretty much used the fact that they were crusading for God to commit some really barbaric acts, but you could never say that they were acting out God's plan for Humanity. This is pretty much BT style, I'm not saying they're self centered but they are still using the Emperor as an excuse to commit these mis-deeds and you certainatly couldn't say they were Enacting the Emperors will, which I think is what Manchu is trying to say.

Misreading much?

How should an argument be negated when the whole background of GW's products is copypasted history?
Because you could imagine what the 11th century crusades were? I doubt anyone of us was live there to watch.
So its highly impossible to claim any partially from history and other sources copypasted fluff for little plastic men
implies anything. Which was my point.

But if we assume there would be similarities, then we have also to accept that some behaviour was common practice in the
11th century and not especially done against certain groups.
This may fit with 40k. The common way to do things isn't that different between various factions of the Imperium.
Most of them will be uncaring and an example of "grimdark".

So is the fact that GW used the iconography and theme of the crusades a reason to say if the historic knights did not enact gods will,
then 40k knights in space did not enact the Emperors will?
I dont think so. Its the opposite.

Who can claim he knows Gods will?
vs
Who can claim he knows the Emperors will?

The former isn't possible. The latter is.
Because the BT follow the crusades primary target , defined by the Emperor himself.
Big difference.
No "vision" or other questionable source. Just the one person in charge, he who rightfully commands all astartes.

And thus, it is still necessary to find some viable fluff when accusations are thrown at the BT.
I doubt there are any.

Should also mention that I won't argue that the original purpose of the crusade and the imperial truth are no longer fulfilled by any
of the 1000 chapters. So if none gets to be the real enactor of his will, why should the BT not do what everyone else does and
claim to act in his name? How many organizations use the emperor as argument for their legality of actions?
All of them.

Do space marines only this > or do they use force ?
Unlikely to expect genenhanced Warroirs to stay put and also a bit unfair to say that a SM uses his name as excuse but a bureaucrat does not. No matter which faction of the Imperium is involved , they all act "in his name".
So tell me, when is the Emperor a excuse and when is he used correctly?

Magnus wasn't fallen to chaos at the time Russ was sent after him. He'd discovered/been informed of to tempt him of what some of his brothers had done, and in desperation to let the Emperor know used powers he had sworn not to. It was implied that he hadn't used them since his caution, or at least very seldom. It was when he was attacked by his brother, intent on destroying everything he had worked for, that he felt that the Emperor had forsaken or even abandoned him (which wouldn't help the situation when that was the same message Horus was preaching. A whole 'he was right' dilema and he possibly resisted as long as he did because of distrust for chaos itself). Only at the last moment, when he thought all was lost, did he surrender and offer himself to chaos.

Was that the right decision? Well, probably not, even though either way would have knocked him out of the HH itself and delayed the Space Wolves. Now, if Russ had gotten the correct orders to bring Magnus back to Terra in chains I do think he would have gone. Maybe not willingly, but if his legion tried to fight I think he would have told them to stand down. What would have been personal humiliation if it meant getting to Terra and being able to inform the Emperor just what was about to happen? Then their would have been a partial legion already at Terra (SW) and another that could have been hastily summoned (TS). It may have tipped the battle. Which is likely why Horus was going to do anything he could to prevent it and knock out two enemies at one time.

Magnus' reaction later? Well, Horus was dead, which made storming over and beating him up a touch impractical. I think the psychological reaction to that knowledge may only have chained Magnus tighter. He's now a daemon prince. It doesn't matter how reluctant his loyalty was to begin with, it is genuine now (unlike Fulgrim, who couldn't stomach what he'd done and let a daemon completely take him over so he wouldn't have to face it, and thus arguably came closest to repenting).

The idea I got from the fluff was that Dorn created the Templars as a big fu to Guilliman. This theory seems to be just that, a theory. I can't see how you can argue it based on implicit quotes.

@Morgrim: There is no indication that Magnus had stopped practicing sorcery between the Council of Nikaea and his webway-disrupting message to Terra. Magnus was already a rebel in his disobedience and felt persecuted when Russ arrived at Prospero. Perhaps he did not fully embrace Chaos until Prospero was all but destroyed but his fall started a long time before Russ broke him, The whole incident is a tragicomedy: If another Primarch had been sent--even on a mission to kill--Magnus might have been able to talk to him. But I'm sure that even if Magnus tried, Russ would hear none of it. For Russ, Magnus's intentions did not matter. Russ was already convinced that the Cyclops of Prospero was a traitor. I think that's why he could believe Horus when the Warmaster claimed the Emperor had ordered Magnus executed. Rogal Dorn or Guilliman would probably have questioned that.

@whatwhat: I really don't get your point. A theory can be argued based on data even if the data is spotty. I'm not saying that my theory is the canonical authority but rather that it has a pretty firm basis in the canon.

Magnus was not tainted by Chaos. Period. He broke the oath made to the Emperor not to use magic, to ADVISE him of Horus's betrayal.

A loyal son that informs the father of the great danger... but the Emperor did not belive him and sent the Space Wolves to bring the Thousand Sons to Terra for questioning. Russ then got tricked by Horus, one way or another, and decided that the Sons deserved full destruction.

Only then, when he saw his home planet destroyed, his Legion under annihilation and betrayed by his beloved father (apparently) he turned to Chaos... not before.

By all means, I see Russ as a no intelligent barbarian so playing with his brain must have been easy for Horus... Dorn is a headstrong (by all means) and Guilliman is perhaps one of the most intelligent SMs around... they would have never belived Horus and would have sticked to the mission given by their father.

For what regards the Black Templars, fluff if fluff. No BTs are idiots and fanatics, we are talking about Space Marines not Inquisition soldiers.

Dorn placed in the BT chapter all the legion members that were eager to fight, the most angry and 'rebellious' to the Codex Astartes. This does not mean that are a bunch of idiots wandering around killing everything. Fluff says this, but if this was true, they'd be on the hunt list of the Inqiusitors from a long time, instead they are just WATCHED from Adeptus Terra because their number is unknown, but well over the supposed 1000.

BTs do their jobs and in a case of a second Heresy of some sort, I think that they'd stay with the progenitor chapter (hoping that the IF would never make a new heresy obviously) even if I do have to force myself to see the BTs fighting with a honorable and well tested Codex Astartes chapter as the IF, second only to the smurfs.

Falling to Chaos doesn't require one's consent. Magnus was well on his way to daemonhood before he was broken by Russ. I don't know where this idea of Magnus not practicing sorcery bwteen Nikaea and his webway-wrecking message to Terra comes from. Magnus was disobedient unto his own fall.

Index Astartes where they are talking about the Thousand Sons if I remember correctly.

EDIT

and anyway Chaos "needs" your consent to make you fall. You are a Chaos follower when you embrace it. Sure, they can taint you but you're not chaothic until you openly embrace one of the cults or everyone.

I think the key transition point from 'tricked and tainted by chaos' to 'fallen to chaos' is when you start worshipping them, yes. Before that point, many tainted will protest and say they aren't, or be utterly distraught if it is shown to them that they have aided the ruinous powers. Convince them of their actions and make them see that they have been used and they'll return to the light or accept death (even if reluctantly). However difficult, however tormented, however reluctant and under duress, it is swearing yourself to chaos at least in your own mind that tips you over the edge.

I do side with the 'Magnus was loyal until that day' theory. His studies may have made him more susceptible and both he and Russ were played horribly, but I think he held his father in high enough esteem that he would not have fallen. To quote a movie, Magnus had his 'it just takes one bad day' moment. It may have been an over reaction and he may never have looked back once he swore himself and let chaos properly sink its claws in (as opposed to nibbling around the edges) but until Russ set foot on Prospero I don't think he'd seriously considered it.

Actually, that is not the case. Chaos can use unwilling vessels. Sometimes merely having latent psychic abilities is enough (hence one part of the necessity of the Black Ships), much less actively dabbling in sorcery. Magnus swore to obey the Edicts of of Nikaea to the Emperor's face--and yet he did not. I hear constant claims that Magnus did not disobey the Emperor's command until he sent his dire warning of Horus's treachery. This is patently false. Have you not asked yourself how Magnus knew of Horus's treachery in the first place? Perhaps a closer reading of Index Astartes is in order:

The Primarch [Magnus] had never accepted the Emperor's belief in the peril of sorcery, and had broken his oath to turn from the pursuit of such knowledge. In his precognitive vision of the coming war, and the warning it provided, Magnus was certain he had found proof of the value of his studies. (Index Astartes III, p.65)

As you can see, Magnus in his pride and arrogance had fallen long before he made any conscious bargain with Tzeetch to save his life from Russ. His great warning to Terra was to be his moment of triumph but it was just one further step along the path to daemonhood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Morgrim: If Magnus held his father in such high esteem, why pretend to know better than him? Why break an oath he made in the presence of the Emperor, face to face with his worthy father? If Magnus was truly loyal, why deceive the Emperor about his continued studies of sorcery? Magnus put his pursuit of witchcraft above loyalty. Sorcery was for him a higher priority than anything, including the Emperor.

well that paragraph might be interpreted also that his studies on sorcery were right, since he got a precognitive vision of the coming war between Horus and the Emperor. It should note also on the book that he broke the oath by reuniting some other psykers and send the message. I might be wrong though... I don't read that part of the IA from a bit.

He held the Emperor in high esteem and as a son that wants to proof his value and love, he tried to save the Emperor from Horus sending the message, breaking the oath. If we check a bit better, we just see that the Emperor was stupid, he pretended that Horus was the most loyal of the primarchs and hence... Magnus was trying to put in bad light his brother to continue his studies. I've read somewhere that there are differente versions and interpretations about the Prospero Mission... some say that the Emperor was so enraged that wanted Prospero burned. Others that Russ was fouled by Horus and instead of taking him back to Earth for interrogation, he was convinced to kill everyone.

Just wait untill A Thousand Sons comes out in march, then we will know for sure.

KOS, you're missing the point. Magnus broke the oath before sending the message.

Index Astartes (neither volume two or three) mentions Horus tricking Russ but both say the history of the burning of Prospero is conflicting. The Thousand Sons entry says that Russ was present on Terra with the Emperor when Magnus attempted to send the message.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@whatwhat: Abnett has said that he and McNeill write the books from different perspectives so that the ambiguity remains. We will never know exactly what happened at Prospero. What is clear is that Magnus was enraptured by Chaos before Russ attacked.

whatwhat wrote:Just wait untill A Thousand Sons comes out in march, then we will know for sure.

but can that be considered true canon ? Black Library is not Games Workshop and many things on the books do not work with the background of the 40k nor the equipment.

But anyway... I'm searching a way to get here in Italy the books of the Horus Heresy and start reading


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:KOS, you're missing the point. Magnus broke the oath before sending the message.

Index Astartes (neither volume two or three) mentions Horus tricking Russ but both say the history of the burning of Prospero is conflicting. The Thousand Sons entry says that Russ was present on Terra with the Emperor when Magnus attempted to send the message.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@whatwhat: Abnett has said that he and McNeill write the book from different perspectives so that the ambiguity remains. We will never know exactly what happened at Prospero. What is clear is that Magnus was enraptured by Chaos before Russ attacked.

so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

Black Library is a branch of GW. Yes, there have been many discrepancies between the game rules and the novels. The HH series, however, is canonical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KOS wrote:so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

I just gave you the direct quotation from Index Astartes III.

Manchu wrote:Black Library is a branch of GW. Yes, there have been many discrepancies between the game rules and the novels. The HH series, however, is canonical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KOS wrote:so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

I just gave you the direct quotation from Index Astartes III.

thanks for info, will definitly buy all the HH novels then.

I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

Still dabbling in sorcery against his oath? Possibly, although two other primaches had prophetic dreams about the Heresy and neither of them were dabbling beforehand, even if one did fall. Disobeying in certain amounts doesn't mean you hate your father. I can definitely see a 'well, he uses awesome psychic powers all the time, and these are just an offshoot of that. He's worried that they might be dangerous. I'll find proof that they aren't, even if I can't use them properly, then when I present it he might decide that they are okay when strictly controlled and used in moderation'.

Note, I've yet to see the distinction between sorcery and psychic powers; if they're the same thing, the Emperor is being a massive hypocrite and favouring Sanguinius since he was apparently given free reign to use his, ignoring the fact that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker the Imperial has ever seen.

Other primachs also disobeyed at times. Alpharius was criticised for taking too long planning and using 'dishonourable' forms of battle. Instead of changing his methods and fighting like he was supposed to, he turned around and did his tricks in a more complete way than before, following an excessively complex plan at the next battle to prove that he could pull it off and that it was highly effective when such as act worked.

Morgrim wrote:I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

It will be possible to add new fluff when "a thousand sons" is available.
Till then, it stands that Magnus and his legion were researchers.

So human curiosity was strong in this legion.
Doesn't mean they were careless.

Magnus tried to save Horus.
Magnus tried to warn the Emperor.
His sons did fight well against demons and IIRC part of this ability was they know the danger.

Would agree that most primarchs did as they please and followed their own path.
Some stumbled upon their flaws, some did not. But still Magnus is the one that may be cheated from his position on his fathers side
and I can't see any primarch except Dorn accepting his own execution.

Here's an interesting wee aside Ive been mulling over whilst reading this wonderful thread.

There does semm to be an great karma in the 40K Universe. Whether accidental or perpetrated by some God or Gods, it seems to strike at certain times.

One such time nivolves the good old Fists themselves - As Manchu correctly states, Dorn covertly went against the Codex Astartes by implementing the Black Templars. They have the feel and strength of a pre-heresy legion, and as such could realistically pose a threat to the Imperium (similiarly with the Space Wolves, but everyone's favourite furries are less likely to turn despite their obvious deviencies)

However, Karma dictates that a balance is required, so as the Black Templars grows in strength, Dorn's sons are punished with the decimataion of the Crimson Fists and Rynn's World, and the betrayal of the Soul Drinkers. So in actuality, a great number of former Fists have been decimated as the Black Templars grow in strength.

Not really an on-topic per'se, just somethnig interesting I thought

@Morgrim: I think you do a good job of showing the same kind of rationalization that Magnus must have went through as he fell to Chaos.

(1) You haven't seen proof of this? I think it's actually the case that you just don't want to see proof of this. The proof is that he swore an oath directly to the Emperor to cease his sorcery, trotted off to Prospero, and continued to master and use sorcery along with the rest of his Legion. He then sent a message through the warp to Terra (that tore a breach in the webway and allowed daemons to invade the Palace, by the way) just to prove to daddy that "see, I told you I was right." It doesn't matter that it wasn't his intention--he had a fair warning from his master and father to stop. He ignored it because he was already too deeply fascinated by the warp, i.e., had fallen to Chaos all but explicitly. Talk about backfiring and being used by Chaos. Such is the price that Chaos exacts of pride. By the time his back was broken over Russ's knee, the Cyclops was ripe as a rotten apple for swearing allegiance to Chaos.

(2) Haven't seen a distinction between psyker and sorcerers? You mean you don't know about the Council of Nikaea that we've been talking about--where it was ruled that psykers could be used (a.k.a., LIBRARIANS) but that sorcerery would be banned forever more as "unforgivable heresy against Mankind".

(3) Finally, Alpharius may have been criticized by his fellow Primarchs (just as Mortarion and Russ criticized Magnus) but he was never directly ordered by the Emperor to change his tactics.

@1hadhq: Why so quick to defend a traitor in this case? And yet willing to take any swipe at the Wolves? I smell Chaos . . .

@Sean: Interesting points. I think you may be the only person in this thread to directly acknowledge the canonical existence of the Soul Drinkers. We've been tiptoeing around them for ages. I don't know much about them, having not read Ben Counter's trilogy. I'm not sure that karma is Grimdark enough--there might be a hint of justice in there, after all.

Oh, and Sean, I guess you can see now why I think it's utterly impossible for Magnus to be redeemed.

Manchu wrote:
Haven't seen a distinction between psyker and sorcerers? You mean you don't know about the Council of Nikaea that we've been talking about--where it was ruled that psykers could be used (a.k.a., LIBRARIANS) but that sorcerery would be banned forever more as "unforgivable heresy against Mankind".

Sorcerery? New type of psi?
Look at the increasing amount of Psi in the Power-armored codices..
Is nothing of these "spells" a type of sorcery?

May I add the TS repelling demons again?
Seems every legio/chapter got its own Psi. Fire based for sallies, lighting based for woofies and blood based for the red marines.

Manchu wrote:
@1hadhq: Why so quick to defend a traitor in this case? And yet willing to take any swipe at the Wolves? I smell Chaos . . .

Quick?
I kept out to watch the Delf in space....

So sister manchu smells chaos, why can't brother SW manchu not smell chaos ? Acute senses lost ?
Or rather the return of accusations of treachery to evade answers.

Maybe even our wolfsister can see that Magnus is in general accepted as the one who fell but had not done so because of the
so called "power" of chaos but of the lack of trust and superstition of his "brother".

I am not defending Magnus from beeing an idiot to give in to a warp creature.
But I did not see any proof of him turning traitor before Russ assailed Prospero.
Remember that Horus didn't count on him as part of his plans but was surprised when Magnus "joined".

Just for the record.
Swipe at SW? How so?
Should I refrain from critizing a specific Primarch? Why? IMO all of them are viable subjects for critics.

PS: I am still waiting to be enlightened about the awesomeness the grey marine player claims for his liege.

I see a lot opinions and no support. It's much easier to demand evidence than to present it.

Manchu wrote:I see a lot opinions and no support. It's much easier to demand evidence than to present it.

Am referring to:

Morgrim wrote:I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

Morgrim wrote:Note, I've yet to see the distinction between sorcery and psychic powers

1hadhq wrote:It will be possible to add new fluff when "a thousand sons" is available. Till then, it stands that Magnus and his legion were researchers. So human curiosity was strong in this legion. Doesn't mean they were careless.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe even our wolfsister can see that Magnus is in general accepted as the one who fell but had not done so because of the so called "power" of chaos but of the lack of trust and superstition of his "brother".

etc.

Did assume you know the fluff and would not need me to restate the well known.

How many times must I say I'll wait with any definite statement about the TS until the new fluff is available?
Sorry, opinion and what we have yet is all you get , NOW.

But TS = research is part of IA. And the general consensus of pre-heresy TS shouldn't be too different on the other side of the pond.
So the first quote is easy to find in the IA ( you've cited it before so don't tell me you've not seen this. ) and the second quote
is an opinion ( evidence of an opinion? how? ).

TS = heretics is part of IA. Why do you fail to acknowledge that?

Manchu wrote:TS = heretics is part of IA. Why do you fail to acknowledge that?

Changed your point to heretics?
Hmm. Did say they were not traitors.
The heretic may be saved, the traitor will eternally suffer.

So Magnus and his legio didn't follow the Emperors orders to the word.
But they didn't side with Horus. ( before the accident ).

Seems big E wasn't the first father to have his sons ignoring some of his teachings...

Again,please read the comments on the BL site about the coming HH books ( a thousand sons/prospero burns ).
"loyalist vs loyalist" is all I say...

Traitors, heretics--in this context they are the same.

Magnus didn't follow the Emperor's orders "to the word"? He utterly broke his oath. He lied. His lies put him on Horus's side without either of them even knowing it (my whole point about how Chaos works in the first place) resulting in an internal invasion of the Palace that kept the Emperor preoccupied and resulted in the death of Malcador the Sigilite.

I have looked at BL's website many times. If you'll recall, I was the one who linked to the video about the books in the first place.

And you still try to ignore the " loyal vs loyal" bit there.....

Your chaos argument is just weak. If it would be that easy, chaos would have conquered the galaxy long time ago.
But these pitiful warp creatures needed to subjugate Primarchs of the imperium to wield any sort of power.

Do you think I'm saying the Thousand Sons thought they were disloyal? Of course they thought they were right. That is how Tzeentch laid them low.

You say my argument is weak and yet you have no counterargument whatsoever. As usual.

I don't need a "counterargument" against the lies of chaos. Its obvious that chaos isn't a reliable source.

You can throw as much accusations you like on the TS.
I am not planning to defend their "honor".
But, I will also not let your false claims of the disloyality of the TS stay there uncommented.
It doesn't matter what chaos believes.
The POV of any faction is always biased and you especially did nothing to find pro AND contra arguments.
Instead we got a lot of claims of marines beeing traitors and heretics.
But still the IA doesn't say the TS were "heretics" or "traitors" at the time were discussin here.
It does support they were disobiedient. And joined chaos when russ tried to kill them.
So were going in circles since our spacewolfsister cannot accept the imperfection of russ and also cannot wait to have the event fleshed out in some new books.
I do understand youre unhappy with the SW part beeing hold back for half a year.

Your problem is with the fluff. You can't find evidence for your opinions so you call them "the lies of Chaos."

Tell me what your criticism of Russ is? It seems to me that your only problem with him is that he outshines Dorn in every way.

I hold to my previous point that I don't know the difference between psychic powers and sorcery, and so can't comment on that angle or how susceptible it makes one to chaos. If someone can link me to some source that clearly defines the difference then I'l be able to contribute more on that topic.

Note, I didn't say that Magnus was in the right. When he sent that message he broke his oath. I'm just not entirely sure he broke it beforehand. Again, when the book comes out we'll either have more clues or an explicite answer.

I do think that at the time these events occurred, Magnus was not serving chaos. Even accidentally. Skating close to the line, possible, manipulated by it in the later stages definitely (but arguably no more than Russ was) but at the time the order was given not serving. He screwed up big time. That does not make one a heretic, it makes one an idiot. The Emperor wanted him dragged back to Terra to explain himself and probably receive some form of punishment, but if the Emperor thought he had fallen then the order would actually have been to kill him, so the Emperor didn't consider the breaching of such an oath to be an act of no redemption and no return. (Has there actually been a fluff case of the Emperor being furious at one of his sons? I'm curious how he'd have reacted. And how the primachs would have reacted.) The argument at this point seems to be that Magnus had fallen before the invasion of Prospero.

Now, I do have to wonder how Magnus knew of the Heresy. The fact he knew of it at all is telling; if he'd seen it in a vision, I would have thought that he'd have at least looked into it a bit first, sent a message back to Terra by more conventional means. Using his powers and breaking his oath in a blantent 'cannot deny I've done this' fashion suggests urgency. A situation where he did not have the time or ability to get a message through any other way. I can see two possible cases for this. One, he's found out just before the Istavaan massacre; about to loose several legions probably counts as an emergency. Two, he's actually been approached by the traitors and can't risk them intercepting or discovering he's sent a message. I'd have to dig deeper into the fluff to figure out which is more plausable, that whole area is pretty scant on details of exactly what happened.

The last bit I find telling. At the end, in desperation, he begs Tzeentch to save his legion and offers himself to chaos. Why? Not the well understood 'this is why he did it' but the 'this is how he knew he could do it and actually stand a chance of having it accepted'. This wasn't joining the other traitors and plotting with Horus, this was going straight to a god; from memory, only the Word Bearers did the same and they started the whole mess. It took Horus by surprise so he obviously thought that the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves were simply going to annihilate each other or at least cripple the survivor, getting two loyalists out of the way. I'm not sure if Magnus was approached by the others earlier and refused. It's possible, Ferrus Manus was. That would be a very good reason to have him killed to keep him quiet and the Emperor played right into Horus' plans. Said scenario would also work if he stumbled over the truth by accident (or sorcery, which would count as the same for the traitors) and they wanted to stop word getting out.

The other thought that comes to mind is that Magnus didn't know all the details, only knew that Horus has rebelled and not quite so much of the details and how closely chaos was wound into it. Then, during the battle of Prospero, he received whispers from Tzeentch or servants of the above god telling him he had been betrayed, and how his father had acted, and that he was going to be destroyed for doing what he had thought was the right thing. (More subtle versions could have been sparingly hinted at earlier, but Magnus was apparently able to resist well enough; if he'd doubts he wouldn't have sent the warning or sent it in the way he did. At that point I feel he was still firmly loyal.) He knew the offer had been made and at that last point accepted it.

I will agree that without a doubt, as soon as he said that he became a traitor. I'd argue that the transition occurred somewhat earlier around the time the SW began attacking. I just do not think it happened beforehand. And it seems that where a primach goes, the legion follows. Granted getting dragged through the warp probably helps since any still staunchly loyal can be left drifting somewhere in there or killed by daemons.

In summery: no, I do not think he was enraptured by chaos before this point. I also think that he was badly manipulated after having put himself in a position that he was deeply vulnerable to it. This is called making a series of dreadful mistakes, not doing it on purpose. I will also state that there is by now no hope of redemption for him, which is not going to stop me deeply enjoying Sauron's rendition of it in his Death of the Emperor story. That is what 'what if' scenarios are for. I've written several of my own. I also think that this argument is going to go nowhere until we get our hands on the two books specifically about what happened.

Manchu wrote:Your problem is with the fluff. You can't find evidence for your opinions so you call them "the lies of Chaos."

Tell me what your criticism of Russ is? It seems to me that your only problem with him is that he outshines Dorn in every way.

I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Critics of russ?
Maybe I don't put him on a pillar and claim he was flawless like some woofies do.

And it is nigh useless to care for who "outshines" whom. Because the fan will never accept an "inferiority" of his choice and
I won't misinterpret the HH to have Dorn shine in any way. But Maybe the boasting furry needs his selfglorification.
Dorn was a humble soldier. He was in charge of the defenses and led the legios in the emperors absence.
Seems russ did not shine enough to get this job. We can expand this thread to most shiny primarch if you want.

But again, i do prefer to keep this on track.

Responding in Parts

Morgrim wrote:I don't know the difference between psychic powers and sorcery

The nature of the difference is not important to this discussion. (It is later retconned in Visions that the Librarians would be disbanded entirely.) What Magnus did was sorcery and it was banned. So decreed the Emperor.

Morgrim wrote:When he sent that message he broke his oath. I'm just not entirely sure he broke it beforehand.

This is already settled: Magnus used sorcery to look into the Warp and foresee Horus's betrayal. (Can't you hear Tzeentch cackling "just as planned?" One son betrays the father to learn that another son will also.)

Morgrim wrote:I do think that at the time these events occurred, Magnus was not serving chaos. Even accidentally. Skating close to the line, possible, manipulated by it in the later stages definitely (but arguably no more than Russ was) but at the time the order was given not serving.

Magnus chose his investigation into the Warp via sorcery over loyalty to the Emperor. How was he not seduced by Chaos? His rationalizations that he remained loyal were by that point meaningless and only further served Chaos--as evidenced by the greatest folly of his pride, the message of warning that ended up allowing the Palace to be invaded by daemons. One might say that Magnus could not have foreseen this. This is absurd. The Emperor commanded him to cease because his sorceries were dangerous. Magnus was warned. By willfully proceeding in his crimes, Magnus formed constructive intent to harm the Imperium.

Morgrim wrote:He screwed up big time. That does not make one a heretic, it makes one an idiot.

No, it makes him a heretic as "conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind." (IA III p.65)

Morgrim wrote:The Emperor wanted him dragged back to Terra to explain himself and probably receive some form of punishment, but if the Emperor thought he had fallen then the order would actually have been to kill him, so the Emperor didn't consider the breaching of such an oath to be an act of no redemption and no return. (Has there actually been a fluff case of the Emperor being furious at one of his sons? I'm curious how he'd have reacted. And how the primachs would have reacted.)

At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Morgrim wrote:The argument at this point seems to be that Magnus had fallen before the invasion of Prospero.

Correct. And if you need more explicit proof:

None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp. (Visions of Heresy p97)

Morgrim wrote:Now, I do have to wonder how Magnus knew of the Heresy. The fact he knew of it at all is telling; if he'd seen it in a vision, I would have thought that he'd have at least looked into it a bit first, sent a message back to Terra by more conventional means. Using his powers and breaking his oath in a blantent 'cannot deny I've done this' fashion suggests urgency.

Might as well continue to let the fluff make my argument:

There are generals, tacticians, and great military minds who say that had Magnus acted upon his knowledge and taken his ship with his Thousand Sons he could have changed the course of the Heresy. Others point out that the Warp is an imprecise place, and Magnus could not be sure he would arrive in time to prevent Horus's treachery. Instead of direct intervention, Magnus embarked upon a more perilous path. The Primarch had never accepted the Emperor's belief in the peril of sorcery, and had broken his oath to turn from the pursuit of such knowledge. In his precognitive vision of the coming war, Magnus was certain he had found proof of the value of his studies. (IA III p65)

Magnus wanted vindication against the Emperor. His pride demanded it.Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgrim wrote:I also think that this argument is going to go nowhere until we get our hands on the two books specifically about what happened.

This argument will go nowhere as long as you ignore all existing fluff in favor of a potential retcon of which you have no evidence.

As to what Magnus knew, or thought he knew:

Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus's pledge of fealty to Chaos upon the feral fields of Davin. Horus's treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. Magnus saw the too-human foibles of Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children and Angron of the World Eaters played upon masterfully by Horus, and greater forces veiled by the Warp. He saw the terrible trap being laid for Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, Vulkan of the Salamanders, and cautious Corax of the Raven Guard on Istvaan V. He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold. Alone in the galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role but his own.(IA III p65)

Funny that the only thing that Magnus could not foresee was the Emperor's rage at his disobedience. Why do you think that is???


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Clearly not. This thread is full of canonical background that you blatantly disregard.

I hereby back down. The vast majority of the quotes posted are completely new to me (I've never been able to find a copy of the Index Astartes, although admittedly not looked very hard because loyalists had never truly interested me), so apparently I'm debating based on clearly inferior information.

I actually think it's these interesting debates on dakkadakka that have actually gotten me interesting in any aspect of the Imperium other than the Blood Angels. Even when I find I'm almost completely in the wrong. I still think that Magnus was hoping to gain his father's approval, but in doing so sort of ensured the opposite. Classic hubris.

It does make for interesting 'what if' scenarios though.

Magnus is a fascinating and deeply sympathetic figure, especially to us nerdy types. As I mentioned elsewhere, I feel that I myself most resemble either him or Fulgrim in terms of personality--which I admit is not what I would prefer. It's easy to want him to be innocent (see Sean's "Death of the Emperor") and if you insist Magnus's shallowest rationalizations as his true intentions, perhaps you could view him as innocent. Do not forget, however, that innocence proves nothing. And the idea that Magnus is innocent (up until his pact with Tzeentch) is absurd. The "reality" (if you will) of the 40k universe is that Chaos does not require the consent of its servants. In the end, Chaos has no willing servants--only slaves. Perhaps this fear of unconscious corruption is what drives the Black Templars to such exacting fanaticism.

Manchu wrote:the difference is not important to this discussion. (It is later retconned in Visions that the Librarians would be disbanded entirely.) What Magnus did was sorcery and it was banned.

The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Manchu wrote:
Magnus chose his investigation into the Warp via sorcery over loyalty to the Emperor. How was he not seduced by Chaos? His rationalizations that he remained loyal were by that point meaningless and only further served Chaos--as evidenced by the greatest folly of his pride, the message of warning that ended up allowing the Palace to be invaded by daemons. One might say that Magnus could not have foreseen this. This is absurd. The Emperor commanded him to cease because his sorceries were dangerous. Magnus was warned. By willfully proceeding in his crimes, Magnus formed constructive intent to harm the Imperium.

Really? Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.
There was no intend to harm the imperium and MAgnus won't foresee everything .
Proof of this is the simple fact that none of the primarchs with any visionary powers did forsee the whole thing,
like Sanguinius and Curze did never get the complete story to see.

Manchu wrote:At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Manchu wrote: And if you need more explicit proof:None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp. (Visions of Heresy p97)

Funny. again a page beyond the size of the book.

Manchu wrote:This argument will go nowhere as long as you ignore all existing fluff in favor of a potential retcon of which you have no evidence.

May i repeat the evidence another hundred times?
It seems one quotes not "Visions of heresy..." Could it be you should post the real title?

Manchu wrote:
As to what Magnus knew, or thought he knew:

Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus's pledge of fealty to Chaos upon the feral fields of Davin. Horus's treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. Magnus saw the too-human foibles of Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children and Angron of the World Eaters played upon masterfully by Horus, and greater forces veiled by the Warp. He saw the terrible trap being laid for Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, Vulkan of the Salamanders, and cautious Corax of the Raven Guard on Istvaan V. He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold. Alone in the galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role but his own.(IA III p65)

Funny that the only thing that Magnus could not foresee was the Emperor's rage at his disobedience. Why do you think that is???

and again IA III has 64 pages....

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Clearly not. This thread is full of canonical background that you blatantly disregard.

Is that so?
Isn't it interesting how few pre-heresy fluff is presented in codices. Even so, when copy-pasting fluff would be
not unusual for GW. Can't see a codex SW quote. Why?

1hadhq wrote:The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:and again IA III has 64 pages....

Wrong. This part I take back as I'm looking at WD pagination. (March 2002) WD p65 is the fourth page of the Thousand Sons entry. If it is printed identically as it was in WD, you will find the quotation in question starting at the bottom of the middle column and continuing about halfway down into the right column. WELL ACTUALLY you're still wrong as your point was to insinuate that I was making up fluff quotations.

Did you have a point that made sense?

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:and again IA III has 64 pages....

Wrong.

Did you have a point that made sense?

Shall I post a pic of the last pages of the four visions of heresy books and also the index astartes series I-IV?

Simply put, youre either willfully ignored the fact that vision of heresy has a series of 4 books and a collected visions edition
and also try to tell us the IA had more than 64 pages.

Seems you can't provide correct sources.

This is FACT.
So, where am I wrong?

Although I find it redundant to spell out, you are wrong on these points:

The difference between psychic power and sorcery is not material to this discussion. All fluff is published by GW, either under the name Games Workshop or the name Black Library. Both sources are canonical.

There was no speculation in my analysis of Magnus's motivation.

Collected Visions of Heresy has four volumes: Visions of War, Visions of Darkness, Visions of Treachery, and Visions of Death. The pagination is continuous throughout, exceeding 400 pages.

Manchu wrote:



Collected Visions of Heresy has four volumes: Visions of War, Visions of Darkness, Visions of Treachery, and Visions of Death. The pagination is continuous through, exceeding 400 pages.

And so it would not been beneficial to mark the quotes right as "collected visions" quotes?

Plus correct page numbers for IA was all I asked for.

But it seems i MUST be WRONG in your book.
Weird way to act.

Seems precise sources aren't welcome.

Just remember: IA and HH has WH40k printed on them, visions has not.

1hadhq wrote:And so it would not been beneficial to mark the quotes right as "collected visions" quotes?

I have used the term "Visions of Heresy" throughout this thread and you only have problems with it now? I also used WD pagination for the Thousand Sons entry of Index Astartes but you've never had a problem with it before? Why is that? Seems like a disingenous attempt to discredit my argument without having to take the time and effort to craft a cited counterargument.

1hadhq wrote:But it seems i MUST be WRONG in your book.

You do not have to be wrong. You can either agree with me or prove me wrong. That would involve citing sources. I've already told you I don't mind trying to work out the page numbers if you don't want to post translations. When you rudely posted German sources, I even played your weird little game and found them.

1hadhq wrote:Seems precise sources aren't welcome.

I'd have more sympathy with this claim if you bothered to raise a question about my sources earlier (when they first appeared) or bothered to list any properly cited sources for your own arguments.

1hadhq wrote:Just remember: IA and HH has WH40k printed on them, visions has not.

Just remember that BL is owned and operated by GW. Also, what little point you've made about Magnus hinges on a prospective BL publication and ignores Index Astartes.

To explain my thinning patience, I will repeat here what I have stated elsewhere. While it takes mere seconds for you to post whatever comes off the top of your head it takes me a considerable amount of time and effort to track down and type (painstakingly word for word) the canonical background material that supports my points. You can imagine my irritation to find you constantly questioning my honesty while providing nothing at all in the way of evidence for your points.

Fulgrim too could be argued as... well, definitely not innocent, but of being the one fallen primach that seemed to realise what he had done and actually regretted it. Of course then he made the foolish, easy and possibly cowardly choice of surrendering to the daemon just so that he wouldn't have to face it.

I think that's what I like about the primachs, and 40k characters in general. They aren't perfect figures, they are complex beings with their own personalities and motivations, ones that seem perfectly logical and rational from their point of view even if they are anything but from another's. Even those people or cultures we would consider undoubtedly evil do not thin of themselves as such (I don't think anyone thinks that they are evil and that that is a motivation in real life. Fiction is another story). It's very tempting to consider scenarios of what could have happened if something was slightly different, if situations or motivations were tweaked, if someone had more or less willpower than they did. And one can follow this to some very interesting conclusions. I have a friend and I playing with such a situation with Sanguinius even when we both know damned well that that would never have happened. Or at least very very clearly did not. Although a twitch of it may though very unlikely and wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Okay, now I'm rambling.

I think the Black Templars could be partially influenced by this fear, but I also don't feel that it is consciously. If it was they would be more... well, 'exact' doesn't seem the right word and neither does 'cautious', but probably taking a path more akin to that of the Grey Knights but without the psyker and daemon possession and expulsion bits. Likely to spend more time on practical defences of the sort that can't actually lead one into corruption (I don't think aegis runes can? Someone feel free to correct me on that). Instead they take a path that also skates close to the edge by their very fanaticism.

If you excuse the jumping to a completely different setting, it reminds me of something out of the novel for Revenge of the Sith. Said novel talks about various forms of lightsaber combat, how they each have different strengths and weaknesses, etc. And how Mace Windu uses a style he developed that is particularly dangerous, because it is described as 'passing through the penumbrae of the dark side'. He's the only one that has used it successfully, everyone else taught it seems to have become dark jedi, but he needs it because it allows him to tame the hint of darkness within that he can't quite tame and channel it to acceptable paths, ignoring the fact it involves bending some of the rules the jedi are taught. It is his own will and morals that lets him keep on his path.

I get a similar vibe from the Black Templars. They have that same hint of darkness in their approach, and beat it into something incredibly focused and devout so that it cannot harm them and are afraid of it turning to any other purpose, for that would deeply scar them. And other chapters may not succeed if they tried to walk the same path. And I'm sure I've just explained that horribly to boot.

Manchu wrote:

To explain my thinning patience, I will repeat here what I have stated elsewhere. While it takes mere seconds for you to post whatever comes off the top of your head it takes me a considerable amount of time and effort to track down and type (painstakingly word for word) the canonical background material that supports my points. You can imagine my irritation to find you constantly questioning my honesty while providing nothing at all in the way of evidence for your points.

You don't need patience, just read the other posts instead of mine.

But consider this:
Maybe i did not ask for corrections when i had to look for those quotes myself, but i do find it irritating when other posters (morgrim)
ask for sources where to find your quotes and your posted pages and books arent leading to it.

And this:
I do not post off the top of my head.

But it see you dislike to be pushed to get more info into your thread.

Before you start whining again, let me point at Index astartes 3, pages 43-45, there are the events of prospero and the fall of magnus is described. ( no more WD IA excuses ). Clearly states that the SW and TS sources contradict each other.
The answer to "ALSO:When Did Magnus Fall To Chaos " is right there.
Magnus pledged allegiance when his home was burnt to the ground and all his collected knowlegde with it.

Next point:
"false gods" (mc neill also wrote the Visions entry) page 314:
'Magnus', said Horus, 'is it really you?'
'Yes my brother it is', said Magnus, and the twowarriors embraced in a clatter of plate.
'How?' asked Horus, 'are you dying too?'
'No' said Magnus, ' Iam not.You must listen to me, my brother. It has taken me too long to reach you, and I do not have much time here. The spells and wards placed around you are powerful and every second I am here a dozen of my thralls die to keep them open.'


the warning in detail follows this. Magnus reveals erebus identity and the fight for horus attention starts.

"false gods"/page 323:
'Horus, my brother', said Magnus.'you must not believe whatever he has told you. Its lies, all of it. Lies that disguise his sinister purpose'.

'You dare speak of lies while you stand before us in the warp? How can this be without the use of sorcery?
Sorcery you were expressly forbidden to practise by the Emperor himself?' ( speech of erebus )

'Do not presume to judge me,whelp!' shouted Magnus, hurling a glittering ball of fire towards the first chaplain.

( remember the chaplain edict of malcador here, the idea of the WB should control psykers but instead the WB lowered defenses of the loyalists with the restricting of librarians and at the same time worked themselves in the warp )

Horus watched as the flame streaked towards Erebus and enveloped him, but as the fire died, he saw that erebus was unharmed,
his armor not so muich asscratched and his skin unblemished. Erebus laughed, 'youre too far away,Magnus. Your powers cannot reach me here'.
Horus watched as Magnus hurled bolt after bolt of lightning from his fingertips, amazed and horrified to see his brother employing such powers.Tough all the legions had once Librarius divisions that trained warriors to tap into the power of the warp, they had been
disbanded after the Emperors decree at the council of Nikaea.

( but almost every chapter has librarians now....)

Clearly, Magnus had paid this order no mind and such conceit staggered Horus.
'You see' said Erebus, turning to horus, ' he cannot be trusted'.
'Nor can you' said Horus. ........'If he is here by sorcery, then how else can you be here?'

( so Magnus and Lorgar/Erebus didn't pay attention when the Emperor made a decree )

'the future is not set, Horus.Erebus may have shown you A future, but that is only one possible future . It is not absolute.
Have faith in that'. ( Magnus attempt to sway horus )

'I can trust neither of you,' he said.' I am Horus and I make my own fate'.

( next step is erebus reveals lorgar's real loyalities. Magnus can't beleive it but in questioning them, he's losing Horus to erebus.
Jealousy and self aggrandization took the better of horus)

'Horus',said Magnus, 'I am running out of time. Please be strong ,my brother.Think of what this mongrel dog is aking you to do.
He would have you spit on your oaths of loyality . He is forcing you to betray the emperor and turn on your brother astartes!
You must trust the emperor to do what is right.'
'The emperor plays dice with the fate of the galaxy ', countered erebus,'and he throws them where they cannot be seen'.

(accusing big E to cheat in a tabletop???)

'Horus, please' cried Magnus, his voice taking on a ghostly quality as his image began to fade.'You must not do this or all WE have
fought for will be cast to ruin forever!You cannot do this terrible thing!'

( erebus again makes promises of power)

'Enough' roared Horus and the world was silence. 'I have made my choice'.

( i think we know his choice...)

"false gods"/page 367:
Fulgrim said, 'Indeed, my brother. Come, there is much for us to talk about, for these are strange times we live in.
It seems our brother Magnus has once again done something to upset the Emperor, and the wolf of Fenris has been unleashed to
ESCORT him back to terra.'
'Magnus?' asked Horus, suddenly sreious.'What has he done?'

( so the warmaster acts as surprised ....)


"false gods"/page 405:
'But what about Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently. 'What happens when leman russ returns him to terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm youreself , Mal.I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus
treacherous use of demonic spells and conjurations.He was,...suitably angry , and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to terra would be a waste of time and effort.'
Maloghurst returned Horus smile .'Magnus will not leave prospero alive.'
'No', agreed Horus'he will not.'

( the wolf fooled )


Enough keyboard action yet?
Proof of Magnus attempt to save Horus. Proof of Magnus loyality in the eyes of the archtraitor.

I temd to subscribe to the idea that the 40K universe (much like our own) is aplace of infinite possibility, so I can see your point of view on Magnus, although I disagree

Could also stem from our dispositions relating to the Primarchs as well - Magnus has always been my favourite Primarch, and the Sons my favourite Legion (pre-heresy, none of this rubric nonsense), wereas I know you favour Russ and his most hairy followers we will never see eye-to-eye on this matter much like Russ and Magnus themselves could never resolve their differences.

But again, another parallel. Both Magnus and Russ have felt the kiss of mutation and the deviancies that it has bestowed upon their legions. Both look back to a simpler era (Ancient Norse and Egypt) and draw thei iconography and beliefs from there, thay are almost one and the same, much like me and yourself (both strongly opinioned on the matter, but unable to give ground to the other one despite our similiarities). It's a cool thing to see

Random note: I've always been amused that of the three primachs with the most obvious mutations, two are the most potent psykers of the lot. And those two are the two that cannot conceal their mutations no matter what they do.

Dead interesting thread. I like the original premise, though I will say that the original intention behind the Templars does not mean they cannot be more than zealots. Individual Templars can rise above it.

I've always thought it was strange that the Templars are allowed to have such an abberant force structure. Same with the Wolves. If I was an inquisitor, I'd make it my business to try and do something about that...

1hadhq: The ignore button doesn't exist to allow you to be discourteous.

Da Boss wrote:
1hadhq: The ignore button doesn't exist to allow you to be discourteous.

discourteuos
Ok looked in my dictonary.

You think I did offend ?
Maybe its to easy to get me going.

Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.

The remaining question is why Magnus, if corrupted by the Warp before Horus's betrayal much less the destruction of Prospero, did not simply pledge himself to Chaos before those events. This is an area where we have to speculate. The only thing that is clear is that Magnus held his continued practice of sorcery in higher regard than the commands of his father. Obviously, this does not mean that he considered himself a traitor.

I would suggest that as Magnus delved deeper into sorcery after Nikaea he also sank deeper into denial. We know from the XV Legion's Index entry that Magnus had been in some sort of psychic contact with the Emperor through the Warp before the Emperor came to Prospero. There is also no reason to believe that Magnus had a strained relationship with the Emperor before Nikaea, although there is no reason to believe they had a particularly close relationship, either. (Although we do know that Russ, Mortarion, and Corax mistrusted him and his Legion.) In any case, Magnus eagerly joined the Crusade.

But after Nikaea, he found his loyalty tested and he chose disobedience. We do not know whether or how he struggled with his conscience over this decision except that he truly believed sorcery could be mastered and was no more inherently dangerous than technology. (There is a striking parallel here, however, between sorcery and artificial intelligence.) It seems to me that this was Magnus's rationalization of his betrayal: the Emperor erred to caution and must be educated. On the one hand, what staggering arrogance he showed in this attitude. On the other hand, he appears to have been a psyker of the same caliber as the Emperor or Eldrad Ulthran. In any case, Magnus seems to have justified his own treacherous curiosity by telling himself that his research would ultimately benefit mankind. Paradoxically, the more he betrayed the Emperor the more important his self-image of loyalty became to him.

In this way, the denial of Magnus was not simply passive. He did not merely absolve himself of the guilt of his betraying his oath but equated this betrayal with a higher form of loyalty. This was a master stroke of Chaos. For just as the Emperor became aware of the power of Magnus's mind through the Warp, Index Astartes tell us other forces became aware of him as well. It seems to me that those forces granted Magnus his vision of Horus's treachery in order to vindicate Magnus's false sense of loyalty, to make him believe that he had finally found proof that he was right to break his oath and continue his studies. As Index Astartes tells us, his sorcerous message of warning to Terra was to be his "moment of triumph." But these same powers, taking advantage of his willful blindness to his own treachery, obscured the role that he was himself to play. And Magnus, in his thralldom to the Warp through sorcery, did not guess that the very use of these powers allowed them to control him.


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Instead of saving Terra, this message was a blow to the Emperor. Magnus's spell was designed to penetrate the hexagrammic wards of the Palace and ultimately allowed for the invasion of Terra itself by armies of daemons. Although the timeline is not entirely clear, we know that Magnus also tried to intervene with Horus personally within the Warp at the moment of his fall. (This most likely will be shown to have occurred before the disastrous message to Terra.) But this plan, as 1hadhq (perhaps unintentionally) shows in the quotations from False Gods that he included above, also catastrophically backfired. Lorgar's attempts to corrupt Horus were clumsy. Horus was not a man to be led into any action.

But Magnus's intervention helped push Horus over the brink. Erebus failed to convince Horus in all aspects but one: he pointed out that Magnus was also treacherous. How hollow must Magnus's warning that Horus should trust the Emperor to know what is right have sounded to Horus, knowing that Magnus himself did not trust the Emperor in this way and had clearly violated their father's decrees at Nikaea? Suddenly terrified at the prospect of Horus's fall, Magnus was no doubt completely sincere in his attempt to prevent it. But by his own disloyalty he had forfeit any credibility with Horus. Magnus learned in anguish that betrayal and fidelity cannot coexist in a man. Perhaps this explains the urgency of Magnus's warning to Terra. Faced with impotence to save his brother, Magnus was also finally confronted with the reality of his own corruption. The use of sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's fall in fact (no longer a mere vision of the future) was Magnus's last chance to prove not only that sorcery could be used to the benefit of man but to also prove that his own "higher loyalty" should overcome his particular disobedience.


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There also remains the question of Russ. Was Russ sent to destroy Prospero or to merely chain Magnus? Despite claims to the contrary, I have already mentioned in this thread that both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons entries of the Index Astartes say that the truth of Prospero is clouded by perspective. (As I have also already mentioned, Abnett has said that this sense of mystery will not be resolved by A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.) Existing canon suggests that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and trusted Russ with the mission to Prospero for the very reason that Russ had always been suspicious of Magnus. I've also pointed out many times that Abnett claims the Space Wolves were bred for the purpose of taking out another Legion.

As 1hadhq shows above, however, Horus claims to Fulgrim that the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra. Is Horus trustworthy on this point? Maybe so. It would seem to make sense that the Emperor would rather deal with Magnus in person rather than (seemingly) hastily kill him. Also, Horus would have no reason to lie to Fulgrim--at least not this lie. Fulgrim's betrayal was always premised more on love for Horus than hate for their father. Finally, we know that a fleet of Black Ships accompanied Russ to Prospero "with orders to carry back to Terra any pskyers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with," along with Custodes ("a sure sign that the Primarch's mission had the full authority of the Emperor," Visions p.98) and Sisters of Silence (cover of Prospero Burns). (I think we can safely say that the Emperor expected Magnus to resist.)

But maybe we are misinterpreting what Horus is saying here. We tend to assume that Magnus was going to be brought back to Terra for some kind of trial but when we look at the evidence, that does not seem likely. Index Astartes says sorcery was made an unforgivable offense against humanity at Nikaea. It also related that the Emperor said to him: "If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time." (Visions p94) Again, the verdict at Nikaea was that "Magnus was to cease all sorcery and psychics on pain of death." (Visions p.97) In light of this, it becomes apparent that there would be no other reason to bring Magnus to Terra other than to be executed by the Emperor himself.

So in what way did Horus actually trick Russ? Did Horus subvert the Emperor's purpose? Considering that the Emperor's purpose was most likely to kill Magnus and destroy his Legion, no. Horus simply convinced Russ, by expanding upon the true depths of Magnus's use of sorcery, that Magnus's warning was completely false--which, according to Index Astartes, both Russ and the Emperor already believed anyway. He also advised Russ that Magnus, being a traitor, would most certainly resist so that he should not even give the Cyclops a chance to surrender. Instead, Russ should bombard the planet and then invade. Which eminently sensible military stratgey Russ did indeed pursue.

This is not the same thing as convincing Russ to kill Magnus outright, as Horus grandly claims. The Emperor and Russ were already convinced that (1) Magnus was a traitor, (2) Magnus would resist imprisonment, and (3) Magnus deserved death. Commencing a surprise attack on Prospero was not in violation of his orders to bring Magnus back to Terra. Indeed, Russ never did kill Magnus but simply completely disabled him by breaking his back (if the legends are true), which is likely the only way you could capture a Primarch who refused to surrender. So how exactly did Horus trick Russ? I think Horus's statement to Maloghurst quoted above turns out to be an example of Horus's very high opinion of himself and his schemes. If anything, Horus got lucky on this account. The Wolves were on Terra at this point. The Emperor sending Russ to Prospero (along with some Sisters of Silence and Custodes) would significantly weaken Terra's defenses. Horus does not seem to have done anything to actually distract Russ or make his campaign against Magnus run any longer than it actually would. So again, Horus seems to be implying that this is all a part of his plan when in reality the Warp Gods and Magnus's arrogance are actually at work.

And why did Magnus never attempt to surrender to Russ? Actually, I would bet he did try this and that we will see this in the upcoming books. That, in my opinion, is one of the mysteries of conflicting perspective that we will see tragically play out. Did Magnus finally completely realize his fall and repent? Or did he begin to do so and then, in anger and frustration, insist on the justice of his research into sorcery? Did the Curse of the Wulfen prevent Russ and his Legion from seeing reason and accepting a proposed surrender? We may find out more in the upcoming novels. Existing accounts testify to the intense fury of the Space Wolves. In the "Lament of Prospero" as "quoted" in Index Astartes, Space Wolves are described as losing their minds but fighting on anyway out of sheer bloodlust. ("Lament of Prospero" seems to be an account from the Space Wolves' point of view. It also claims Magnus made his bargain with Chaos before the personal combat with Russ.) The other mystery is how a world of precognitive sorcerers could not foresee the arrival and attack of Russ. Perhaps the Black Ships and Sisters of Silence played some role in this? Perhaps the Gods of Chaos blinded the Thousand Sons so that they would be at the brink of destruction and so finally give themselves to the Warp not as masters of sorcery but as slaves.

I'm not entirely sure that the Emperor would have killed Magnus; or at least not kill him outright. Evidence suggests that the Emperor could be very vindictive when he wanted to. Why else would the two missing legions have been destroyed, when it is suggested that they may never had even met their primach? And destroying the entire Thousand Sons... well, that could be justified in some respects if they thought all had fallen, but I recall that some loyalists from that legion were amongst those that fled to Terra as did others from those legions that fell. I know there is a theory that some members of the Thousand Sons were founding members of the Grey Knights (and in that context, I can certainly see why they would be tested in such a gruelling and exhaustive way).

The Emperor could well have intended to make an example of Magnus, possibly in execution. He was the only one capable of completely destroying Horus' warp presence which he may have deemed necessary in this case. He may have had a purpose for Magnus other than death, since he was such a skilled and powerful psyker, although I have a very strong feeling that it would be classed as 'incredibly unpleasant'. Or he could have vented his fury on Magnus, probably in a way that took him a few years to heal, and set him on some sort of task in penance but kept under an incredibly close watch by the Emperor himself. All of the above requiring him to be brought back alive and (relatively) intact.

The forces Russ took certainly indicated that they expected to have to fight Magnus, but I'd argue that they didn't mean they were to destroy him. If that was the case and his legion and any psykers were to be destroyed that would have just called exterminatus from orbit. Yes, I know that that is considered a last resort, but a nearly full legion of space marines with powerful psykers and suspected to be in league with chaos, within their own stronghold, seems like an occasion it would be warranted. Perhaps they lacked the ability to do that then. Horus suggesting the logical tactic of starting by attacking from orbit, though, could have tipped the tide further than you think. If the start of the setting had been a message from Magnus to Russ that they had this massive fleet and the Emperor had ordered Magnus dragged back in chains and to be taken in force if he refused, words about surrender would have been more likely. Because having a full legion plus Custodes is generally an indication that you are in a lot more trouble than you thought you had been. Offering a chance to surrender from orbit where you still have the ability to bombard them when they say no seems an even better idea tactically speaking. If they were worried about orbital defences then there is a bit of fluff contradiction going on here because people on Prospero would certainly have noticed them coming, so no element of surprise for them to ruin, and if they were going to blow the SW out of the sky they'd be doing so whether they were struck first or not.

Breaking a primachs back does seem to be the best way to physically incapacitate them, but also doesn't seem to be very permanent or even long lasting (Sanguinius recovered in time to fight at full strength during the Siege of Terra). So if it is a temporary thing, it also stands to reason that it is a very good tactic when you are trying to kill someone because then you aren't dealing with both physical and psykic attack. It is also implied in fluff that primachs are very very hard to kill. The few I can think of that are explicitly stated have either been decapitated or very close to it (a dagger through the throat that would have been lethal on its own, plus being poisoned, counts as close enough). And having a primach about to give you the coup de grace when you are helpless counts as pretty panic inducing; given that he only pledged at that moment, I wonder how much was 'I don't want my legion destroyed' and how much was 'I'm about to die!'. If he was just worried about his legion he would have done it the instant he thought all hope was lost. In this, a few words of Horus could have had a decent impact. Merely increasing the ferocity of the invasion, and he'd know the SW would be more likely to go into berserker rage and be even less reasonable if they thought the situation was even more dire, would still be acceptable because it would mean more SW casualities. But yes, it does sound like Horus was boasting and exaggerating a little.


The areas surrounding what occurred once the planet was attacked are certainly interesting. And again, Magnus suffered from classic hubrus; in greek mythology, it seems that one of the surest ways of bringing about a prophesy is to attempt to prevent it. I can only think of a single occasion where doing so actually worked.

The evidence clearly suggests that the Emperor was going to kill Magnus. Insisting otherwise is speculation (which can be interesting--like guessing that Magnus might be used in the Emperor's own projects) or wishful thinking (Sean's fan service). Visions suggests that the Thousand Sons were to be destroyed at Prospero (see the quote above dealing with capturing any psykers remaining after the XV Legion had been "dealt with").

The City of Light survived the orbital bombardment that destroyed the rest of the surface of Prospero thanks to the spells of the Thousand Sons. Exterminatus may not have been an option.

Whether Magnus or anyone else on Prospero was aware of Russ's approach or arrival is unknown. As I stated, paraphrasing Index Astartes, it is one of the great mysteries of the time.

Whether Magnus swore allegiance to Chaos in the midst of the attack on Prospero or at the moment Russ bested him in personal combat is also not truly known.

As for Russ's orbital bombardment, we can only assume that Chief Custodian Constantin Valdor and Janetia Krolle of the Sisters of Silence, who were both present as the Emperor's right and left hands, agreed with the tactic. I do not see how it could be at variance with the Emperor's orders.

Sorry Manchu, but you can't consider visions as connon. it's a great art book, but the fluff is just all over the place. The ammount of times it contradicts the very novel series it is supposed to accompany is mad. It also has pics in there of characters who are supposed to be loyalists, with chaos mutations all over them.

There are a lot of mistakes in Visions, it's true. There are a lot of fluff mistakes and contradictions throughout all of Games Workshop's publications. Index Astartes entries, for example, were written in the same time period by the same set of author and yet FREQUENTLY contradict one another and other sources. It should be noted, however, that Merrett was not he only author to work on Visions. There is a brief narrative about the final assault on Magnus's Athenaeum written by Graham McNeill, for example. If contradictions are the measuring stick by which we decide what is and is not canon, then nothing is canon.


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Also, whatwhat, I have attempted to use more than one source where possible and especially where I have found a discrepancy between sources.

Manchu wrote:If contradictions are the measuring stick by which we decide what is and is not canon, then nothing is canon.

So what is the measure then? Since you have managed to get through seven pages posting quotations here thare and everywhere. You must believe something in there is solid.

The measurement is first whether or not it was published by Games Workshop/Black Library and second whether or not it has been clearly superseded by later publications. (Something like Ian Watson's trilogy is tricky but it's fairly simple with the Horus Heresy.)

So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

In answer to the very first point posted, I must agree that the Templars are indeed a legacy of something long past. But, by looking at them as a whole, one must consider how close they are to the Templars of the Middle Ages. Look at them. The BT want to control the entire galaxy, the known inhabited area. Look at the Templars, wanting the control the world.

EX

whatwhat wrote:So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

I don't follow your logic.

Manchu wrote:

whatwhat wrote:So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

I don't follow your logic.

The first three HH novels has Tarik Torgadon as a loyalist who fights to the death on Istvaan III with Loken. In Collected Visions hes a mutated chaos heretic. Visions postdates the first three HH novels. And that's just one example of Vision's mistakes.

So do we ignore those novels by your logic that later publications supersede those before as canon?

No, we ignore obvious errors. There is also a picture of a green Blood Angel. I'm having trouble finding the picture of Tarik you've mentioned. (Not saying it doesn't exist, I'd just like to know where it is.)

Keep looking, it's there. Haven't got it to hand, don't know the page.

Collected visions is so full of obvious errors I'd be inclined to rule it out alltogether as an implicit summary of events. You shouldn't use it to draw anything key in my opinion. Which brings us back to your point on Magnus.

I disagree with your opinion. The flaw you've brought up (still looking for it) is an obvious one. Neither that or the green Blood Angel invalidate the whole series. Again, your standard rules out using most if not all GW material.

Additionally, if this picture of Tarik was published in anything but Visions of Death, it would have predated and been superseded by the first three HH novels. Actually, please note that it's a picture printed for a card game that predates the novels, as well.

Manchu wrote:The evidence clearly suggests that the Emperor was going to kill Magnus. Insisting otherwise is speculation (which can be interesting--like guessing that Magnus might be used in the Emperor's own projects) or wishful thinking (Sean's fan service). Visions suggests that the Thousand Sons were to be destroyed at Prospero (see the quote above dealing with capturing any psykers remaining after the XV Legion had been "dealt with").

I wasn't insisting, I did state I was speculating and trying to cover everything that could have happened, not merely focusing on what was likely to happen. Well, not everything that could have happened since it seems clear Magnus wouldn't be let off with a slap on the wrist, but things that could plausibly fit into the framework.

I love speculating and wondering if something could work a certain way. It makes for some interesting fluff.

I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt- especially the bits that refer to 40k. Liber Chaotica is much simpler to justify in that sense in that it was clearly written from the perspective of an unstable author. Xenology has the same situation of clear author bias, but in there the presentation of the dissections themselves are made in such a way that the hard facts seems reliable enough, but the conclusions drawn from this are uncertain. Should a codex contradict the conclusions drawn by a human biologist, the xeno source should be given priority since they'd know their own biology. In the same way I'd rate the novel over Visions, because it seems to me that within the context of the 40k world that much of the large artwork of the primachs done in that distinct stylised parchment style was done after the HH. And if an artist was told 'this person fell to chaos' then drawing them as a horribly mutated warp creature makes sense even if you've never seen them.

Although I'm not sure I'm making any sense either. I need to go look up what perspective the body of Visions is done in on Thursday to comment more.

Manchu wrote:I disagree with your opinion. The flaw you've brought up (still looking for it) is an obvious one. Neither that or the green Blood Angel invalidate the whole series. Again, your standard rules out using most if not all GW material.

Additionally, if this picture of Tarik was published in anything but Visions of Death, it would have predated and been superseded by the first three HH novels.

I'm happy to use your standard, I'm just not happy with Visons being canon. And that was just one small example. Visions also has an unprcidented number of captions wrong. With most of the characters ranks being wrong, Captain Fabius for example. It is evident that the writer didn't have much communication with the writers of the HH series.

Morgrim wrote:I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt-

I think this is a good way to look at it.

As noted, Merret was not the only writer of Visions. Some parts, including "The Kaban Project," and the aforementioned section on Prospero's fall were written by Graham McNeill--who wrote Mechanicus and A Thousand Sons. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.


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whatwhat wrote:

Morgrim wrote:I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt-

I think this is a good way to look at it.

Lol, of course you do--it's nearly the same thing as what you said!


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As to the picture of Tarik that whatwhat mentioned, doesn't someone have a dream of Tarik with a Chaos star reading Lorgar's book?

Manchu wrote:As noted, Merret was not the only writer of Visions. Some parts, including "The Kaban Project," and the aforementioned section on Prospero's fall were written by Graham McNeill--who wrote Mechanicus and A Thousand Sons. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.

@Morgrim: Good point about Liber Chaotica and Xenology being written from fictional perspectives that effect the narrative. Visions is not written this way but from a third-person omniscient, like history.


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whatwhat wrote:That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.

I get it that you think Alan Merrett is an unreliable writer. Fine. It's still canonical. Would you argue that the Index Astartes articles are non-canonical? Would you argue that the Ciaphas Cain novels are non-canonical? The presence of contradictions or their frequency is not enough to exempt Visions from canon.

Manchu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

whatwhat wrote:That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.

I get it that you think Alan Merrett is an unreliable writer. Fine. It's still canonical. Would you argue that the Index Astartes articles are non-canonical? Would you argue that the Ciaphas Cain novels are non-canonical? The presence of contradictions or their frequency is not enough to exempt Visions from canon.

No, I think the fluff writen in visions is unreliable, not Merrett. At the end of the day it's an art book which has the story of the heresy alongside it to fill pages and give some background to the pictures your seeing. It's blatently not been cross checked and looked over as much as the HH series or otherwise, evident from its many mistakes of which my Torgadon example was just a snipet. And therefore as Morgrim suggested, we should take what it says with a pinch of salt.

I understand your position, which is why I have included more than one source where possible, but I think your skepticism could apply as much to Visions as to a Codex. After all, a codex is just a rulebook with some story alongside to fill the pages. Any way you slice it, there is no official stance on what is not canon. Thus it is all canon until it is explicitly superseded. The picture of Tarik is no different from the green Blood Angel in this regard--namely, we can spot what is obviously incorrect while the rest must be accepted as canon.

Manchu wrote:The picture of Tarik is no different from the green Blood Angel in this regard--namely, we can spot what is obviously incorrect while the rest must be accepted as canon.

See I don't get that. If I was to say do an exam paper on something and I took a book to gain reference. If part of the book was littered with obvious mistakes, do i still trust the rest of it enough to include it in my exam paper? No. Same principle here. Visions has too many mistakes for us to uphold parts we are unsure of with any trust. You can't base a key point in your argument on Visions for that reason.

If I must write an exam paper on a subject for which every reference is riddled with mistakes do I just refuse to wrte the paper? No, I sort out what is common among the sources and point out where they disagree while ignoring the obvious errors. Which key point is based only on Visions anyway?

Manchu wrote:If I must write an exam paper on a subject for which every reference was riddled with mistakes do I just refuse to wrte the paper? No, I sort out what is common among the sources and point out where they disagree while ignoring the obvious errors.

And since you can't do the same here?

Manchu wrote:Which key point is based only on Visions anyway?

No other source you have quoted besides visions explicitly states what the emporer intended the space wolves to do when sent to prospero.

I have done that. What are you talking about?


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whatwhat wrote:No other source you have quoted besides visions explicitly states what the emporer intended the space wolves to do when sent to prospero.

No source whatsoever explicitly states what the Emperor intended the Space Wolves to do when sent to Prospero, although in False Gods Horus tells Fulgrim that Russ was to escort Magnus back to Terra. Visions has the Emperor say directly to Magnus at Nikaea that he will destroy him if he should continue practicing sorcery. This agrees with Index Astartes that the practice of sorcery was made an "unforgivable heresy against mankind" at Nikaea. Committing an unforgivable crime against mankind sounds like a capital offense to me.

What am i talking about? Well for example just there you have taken Visions as sacred and used a highly implicit IA example which doesn't even state a specific context to try and warrant its credibility.

Here's an earlier example of you placing so much faith in Collected Visions alone.

Manchu wrote:At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Also to go with the False Gods quote which has been given to you supporting the argument that the Empiorer sent Russ to bring Magnus back to terra. I am almost 99% certain it says the same thing in Fulgrim. I will get you a page number tonight.