What with all the talk about Tervigons and their interactions with Termagants I thought it would be interesting to brainstorm some ideas about how to hasten Tervigoni to their graves.

So far the best ideas I can come up with are:

1. Equipping a model bearing an Instant Death weapon with a Jump Pack and jumping over a Termagant screen and trusting to luck.

2. Using a clean and sweep tactic by which a unit armed with template weapons clears the Termagant screen to allow a unit to shoot or assault the Tervigon.

3. Disgusting amounts of direct firepower, like a Loota squad, Devastator squad, Havoc Squad, or Long Fangs. Maybe Scouts (Eldar or Space Marines), Sternguard, or Chosen.

Marker lights to negate cover save, massed tau firepower to seal the deal. Use excess marketlight hits for seeker missles.

JoTWW or Eldar Mind War == dead. Just pull up in a transport and nuke itt.

Vendettas seem like they'd do the job nicely.

I don't think a Mind War is going to be terribly effective against a T6 W6 Ld10 creature (someone correct these numbers if I'm wrong).

Jaws of the World Wolf? Yeah, that one's a bit obvious, but not really a tactic so much as a strategy to be discussed in the army list forum. Directing disgusting amounts of firepower counts as a tactic because its a matter of target-priority, concentrating firepower rather than trying to spread it around, rather than the particular kind of firepower.

Strategy: What you have available in terms of resources.
Tactics: What you can do with those resources.

Multi-assaulting the Gaunts and the Tervigon.
Dumping the attacks on the Gaunts only (or as much as possible) to kill the Tervigon with no retreat wounds.

It seems like the most effective assault method against high toughness multi-wound fearless models.
(I learned that the hard way involving scarabs and a C'tan)

Belphegor:

That's the obvious one, but how do you assault both if the Termagants are screening the Tervigon? You'd need to go over the Termagants, with Jump Packs or Wings.

Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

to Nurglitch:

You wouldn't necessary need to go over the Gaunts, going through them is an option too.
Of coarse you would need to utilize a vehicle that you can assault from, or have an separate assault unit that can keep up with one.

Getting those 18 wounds would be easier the more Gaunts the Tyranid played has surrounding the Tervigon, and all you need is to get one model into contact.
Which could be from a small jump, bike or outflanking squad, so that one member is in contact with the Tervigon and one with the Gaunts.
The body of the wounds to the Gaunts can come from a different unit once that link is created.

Also it will be difficult to keep a Tervigon completely surrounded by a single squad of Gaunts, since as different units they complete their movements at a separate timing.
If the player attempts to surround it with multiple units then that leaves these other units vulnerable to the multi-charge as well.

Tervigons on the field seem like they would be vulnerable to flanking because to the amount of space their required support take up.
So pac-manning from the sides seems like the general assault approach to take.

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

In other words, about 40 attacks by WS4/Str4 models allocated on the gants. So 10 charging ork boyz, 15 assault marines, space wolves or chaos marines. Or about 8 charging khorne berzerkers. Not counting nobs/fists or characters. Doesn't sound so hard.

Psyker battle squad reduces it's LD to 2.

Callidus Assassin hits it with Neural Shredder, causing insta-death wound on 2+.



(Seriously, I want to do this to a Carnifex brood one of these days)

Nurglitch wrote:Belphegor:

That's the obvious one, but how do you assault both if the Termagants are screening the Tervigon? You'd need to go over the Termagants, with Jump Packs or Wings.

Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

I'm going to agree with the Vendetta comment above. Long-range good-AP weapons are essential. If you're space wolves, you can probably get away with using Missile Launchers by using your nasty little runic weapons to prevent Catalyst; for everyone else, bring more lascannons.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus you'd need to win the combat by an average of 18 in order to dispose of the Tervigon quickly so you can move onto the next one.

In other words, about 40 attacks by WS4/Str4 models allocated on the gants. So 10 charging ork boyz, 15 assault marines, space wolves or chaos marines. Or about 8 charging khorne berzerkers. Not counting nobs/fists or characters. Doesn't sound so hard.

You forgot the wounds the gants/Tervigon do to you. They're not negligible, and the 'gants go before MEQs/orks.

Janthkin wrote:
Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

Can they be poisoned? I don't have the codex in-hand, but I thought I remembered it saying that the gants produced by a Tervigon are the basic Str3, WS3 version with no upgrades allowed. And aren't they I4 or am I misremembering that too? And doesn't the Tervigon go after at I2 or something? I guess I really should get the codex.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
Plus the gants are non-trivial, if you're fighting them that close to the Tervigon. Not sure of any single assault unit that would care to engage 20+ poisoned, furious-charging, counter-attacking 'gants, in addition to their Tervigon mother....

Can they be poisoned? I don't have the codex in-hand, but I thought I remembered it saying that the gants produced by a Tervigon are the basic Str3, WS3 version with no upgrades allowed. And aren't they I4 or am I misremembering that too? And doesn't the Tervigon go after at I2 or something? I guess I really should get the codex.

All 'gant units within 6" pick up the upgrades of the Tervigon (Toxin sacs (Poison) + Adrenal glands (Furious Charge)), plus get Counter-attack. Add in the SW FAQ with it's "counter-attacking units can use Furious Charge" ruling, and it get a little ugly to multicharge in there.

Yes, the Tervigon itself is very low init, which is why they should take Crushing Claws all the time.

The SW FAQ rule applying to every army in the game is a little questionable, but I wouldn't object to it being played that way. It does make Termagants a lot harder to assault though. Maybe too much so, considering they cost 5 points each and the Tervigon only 'costs' 100 points once its spawned 20 Termagants.

By the way are you all assuming the Tervigon gets a cover save from the Termagants? It really needs one from somewhere or it will simply get shot to bits by turn 2, but I don't think Gaunts are big enough at all.

Um.. Hive Guard. A mirror match there, but its not impossible to consider.

Therion wrote:The SW FAQ rule applying to every army in the game is a little questionable, but I wouldn't object to it being played that way. It does make Termagants a lot harder to assault though. Maybe too much so, considering they cost 5 points each and the Tervigon only 'costs' 100 points once its spawned 20 Termagants.

On the "bright" side, at least counter-attacking 'gants won't gain the benefits of Defensive Grenades from the Venomthrope standing just over yonder.

And to think we thought that ruling was silly! Instead, they were just looking forward for once....

Belphegor wrote:Multi-assaulting the Gaunts and the Tervigon.
Dumping the attacks on the Gaunts only (or as much as possible) to kill the Tervigon with no retreat wounds.

It seems like the most effective assault method against high toughness multi-wound fearless models.
(I learned that the hard way involving scarabs and a C'tan)

Horrible idea against the new bugs. Those little Gaunts will be ST4, I5, poisoned 4+ with their daddy lurking around with them. Against even a small brood (say 10), the Gaunts will average 7.5 wounds before saves against anything T4 or below. And this does not include other buffs like having a Venomthrope or an Old Adversary Tyrant nearby. When combined with the Crushing Claw on the Tervigon, the Tyranid player averages 1.2 wounds from the Gaunts and 0.68 wounds from the Tervigon against TEQs. Anything less than a major close combat unit (7+ Assault Terminators, diversified Nobz/Thunderwolves, etc.) will have a tough time sticking around. MEQs will take 2.475 wounds from the Gaunts and 2.075 from the Tervigon. Even Berzerkers start thinking twice and remember, those numbers are from a very small Gaunt squad at 10 models.

Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Razerous wrote:Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Since GW ruled "Yes" in the Space Wolves FAQ, we've been playing it that way with the Termagaunts as well just to be safe.

Razerous wrote:Wait what.. does Counter Attack allow you to gain the benefit of the Furious Charge rule?

Since it describes an interaction of USRs, not SW-specific rules, it can be argued that FC now effects all counter-attacking units.

That's great, how about we leave that argument in YMDC and get on with discussing tactical solutions to the Tervigon?

Vendettas are EZ-Mode. 3 should have shooting left over, and their elevated model means they can ignore almost all screening units for cover purposes.

Edit: Actually Vendettas will come up just short. Still, the rest of the list can undoubtedly put a single wound on the sucker. It's still one of the best shooting efficiencies available, considering all options.

I think Tervigons are absolute poop. Oh cool, I can make more gaunts. I dont own the codex, but full out gaunt farm seems like asking to lose against any mech player.

One or two tervigons are a good choice though. As far as killing them I would either charge with multiple fists, or pew pew with high strength high ap guns.

Just dont get bent out of shape about them. Someone pumping all their fire into tervigons and ignoring the tyrannofexs/tyrants is asking to lose.

sourclams:

Actually you have a good point. Getting Heavy Weapons into an elevated position 3"-6" high is going to make it hard for a Tervigon to get cover saves. Employing Lascannons and other AP2 weapons will negate any Feel No Pain.

Speaking specifically to Vendettas, my experience with them is that they themselves tend not to get cover for return-fire, but it doesn't look like Tyranids have much in the way of firepower to knock down a squadron in less than two turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I grappled the shoggoth:

So if you were going to charge the Tervigons with Powerfists, how would you get past the Termagant screen? If you were going to shoot them with high Strength guns, what would you do about the Tyrannofices and Tyrants and whatever else?

I mean the whole point of this thread is about killing Tervigons - whether people want to or not is beside the point because we've already started with the assumption that we want to.

Straken and Guard blobs with fists might work.

Space marines could use a 2 tac squads with flamers and a razorback with plas/las. marines burn and shoot down the gaunt squad to open up the fire lanes for the razors to shoot the tervigon. Wolves could squeeze in a combi flamer and another fist into each unit incase they need to pick off the last wound off the terivgon.

Durandal:

How might Straken and blobbed platoons work?

The idea with the Space Marines sounds interesting, but don't Tervigons have something like W6 and the option of taking regenerate? That might work over three or four turns, whereas we're working on single-turn kills.

It would work by charging the termagants with equal amounts of guardsmen. Both would furious charge into each other. The guard would probably have the advantage with flamers as long as you didn't make yourself unable to assault.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

Actually you have a good point. Getting Heavy Weapons into an elevated position 3"-6" high is going to make it hard for a Tervigon to get cover saves. Employing Lascannons and other AP2 weapons will negate any Feel No Pain.

Speaking specifically to Vendettas, my experience with them is that they themselves tend not to get cover for return-fire, but it doesn't look like Tyranids have much in the way of firepower to knock down a squadron in less than two turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I grappled the shoggoth:

So if you were going to charge the Tervigons with Powerfists, how would you get past the Termagant screen? If you were going to shoot them with high Strength guns, what would you do about the Tyrannofices and Tyrants and whatever else?

I mean the whole point of this thread is about killing Tervigons - whether people want to or not is beside the point because we've already started with the assumption that we want to.

Me, personally, I wouldn't care that much about losing the Tervigons, especially since they're just Troop choices for me, pouring out other Troop choices. That, and with the same idea as your termagant screen, I'm also going to have 3 Venomthropes lovingly floating behind them, automatically giving them cover saves, whether they have a screen or not. That and 2-3 Tervigons giving 2-3 units of Termagants FNP helps too. (Course, I could put the Venomthropes between the Gaunts and Tervigons, giving everyone some cover love, but that might get a little tight from something like a Vindicator.)

Edit: Also, I equip my Tervigons with Regeneration. So, just as a for instance - you fire your 3 Vendettas at my Tervigon. That's 3 Twin-linked Lascannons from each bird. First three, you need 4's, so 9 lascannon shots at 50% = 4.5, 4.5 at 50% again = 2.25, 4.5 + 2.25 = 7 total.

Now, 2+ to wound. 2+ is 83%, so 83% of 7 is a little under 6. Let's say that 6 wound.

Now, I get a cover save. At 5+, my cover save is only 33%. 33% of 6 is 2. Therefore, I take 4 wounds.

My turn rolls around, I need to get back some wounds. Rolling a 6 alone is only a 16% chance, so 16% of 4 is 1. I am back up to 3 wounds. And now I'm a turn closer and I still have 2 unwounded Tervigons left.

Not saying they're the best unit in the game or anything, but they're not necessarily "EZ-mode" either.

So what you want is a unit that can kill off a tervigon in one turn, and do it without having to wade through 35325504672098672050571038571309571035 gaunts.

I recommend lascannons. Anything that has enough shots will take it down. Stern guard could do a number on one when hopping out of a pod

If you move 6' and disembark, the TW plasma will put 2 wounds, and an extra from the lascannons. For a total of 3. So it wouldn't be wiped out in one round of shooting, but I assume the nid player must now choose to either assault a unit with enough fists to do 3 wounds, or spew more gaunts that will only be shot to death next turn.

Unless it can spawn and still assault?

Durandal wrote:If you move 6' and disembark, the TW plasma will put 2 wounds, and an extra from the lascannons. For a total of 3. So it wouldn't be wiped out in one round of shooting, but I assume the nid player must now choose to either assault a unit with enough fists to do 3 wounds, or spew more gaunts that will only be shot to death next turn.

Unless it can spawn and still assault?

Yes, it spawns every movement phase - even if it's in close combat. And I don't think you're taking into account the cover save that potential venomthropes will be giving these big nasties.

"Yes, it CAN spawn in every Movement...*snip*" is the correct answer.

Not saying they're the best unit in the game or anything, but they're not necessarily "EZ-mode" either.

I would also like to remind everyone that a Tervigon with the necessary Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, and Toxin Sacs upgrades and the normal upgrades of Crushing Claws and Regeneration, costs 250 points total. A Land Raider doesn't die to the first one or two lascannons and plasma guns either. A LR has more than 4x better ranged weapons than the Tervigon, can tank shock, and synergises with other troops by granting one unit and possibly a character more than double movement speed and safety into assault range. Tervigon on the other hand buffs nearby Gaunts immensely, grants FNP with a psychic test, creates a fresh unit or two and with claws isn't bad at all in close combat.

I'm gonna give some orky tactics that could work

Big Mek with SAG and hope for a double six? (nothing like sucking a monstrous creature into the warp!)

Zogwort's curse?

If not a mob of burnas in trukk could be a serious threat, drive up just out of assault range, let loose the flamer templates of doom and get rid of gaunts, next turn even if trukk goes boom can assault with power weapons!

Another ork tactic would be a paired assault. Two trukk mobs get out on opposite sides of the Tervigon. The first one shoots at and then assaults the gaunts. The mandatory 6" counter-charge of the 'gaunts provides the necessary gap for the second trukk mob to assault the Tervigon. Rules questions: after the charge moves the ork player could choose to resolve the tervigon assault first right?

What kind of save does a tervigon have?

Zogwort won't work, unless the Tervigon is an Independent Character. You'd be better off swamping it with boys- as far as I know it can't spawn units when there isn't anywhere to put them. Block off its deployment zone with the weight of your thick orky skullz while you wait for the powerklaw nob to do his deadly work.

It isn't a ranged spawn, is it?

Each model has to be placed within 6" of the Tervigon, if I remember correctly.

olympia wrote:Another ork tactic would be a paired assault. Two trukk mobs get out on opposite sides of the Tervigon. The first one shoots at and then assaults the gaunts. The mandatory 6" counter-charge of the 'gaunts provides the necessary gap for the second trukk mob to assault the Tervigon. Rules questions: after the charge moves the ork player could choose to resolve the tervigon assault first right?

Nope, doesn't work. The mandatory counter-charge movement doesn't come until "after all assault moves have been made." In 40K you can't pull units out of the way with assaults in order to allow a second unit to make an assault the same turn.

I think you could tank-shock the two trukks (with the upgrade that makes them able to tank shock) first one into the gants, then the other side-by-side with a <2" gap between them--the gants can't move into the gap because it would leave them within 1" of your models--and use that alleyway you've created to disembark and assault. Should work for any transports that have access on the sides.

Thanks Flavius. Do you know the save on the Tervigon, because at T6 the regular boyz are not going to hurt it after the initial assault.

Burnas I suppose. You declare the tervigon the target and flame the screening 'gaunts into ash thus leaving it clear for the burnas to assault the beast and with luck dish out 6 wounds on the first turn.

Lootas. Always make sure you play with elevated terrain and put fifteen lootas up in a ruin and let them blast away.

Acardia wrote:Marker lights to negate cover save, massed tau firepower to seal the deal. Use excess marketlight hits for seeker missles.

I guess these bugs are so tall that a Gaunt screen cannot give a cover save.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

olympia wrote:Another ork tactic would be a paired assault. Two trukk mobs get out on opposite sides of the Tervigon. The first one shoots at and then assaults the gaunts. The mandatory 6" counter-charge of the 'gaunts provides the necessary gap for the second trukk mob to assault the Tervigon. Rules questions: after the charge moves the ork player could choose to resolve the tervigon assault first right?

Nope, doesn't work. The mandatory counter-charge movement doesn't come until "after all assault moves have been made." In 40K you can't pull units out of the way with assaults in order to allow a second unit to make an assault the same turn.

I think you could tank-shock the two trukks (with the upgrade that makes them able to tank shock) first one into the gants, then the other side-by-side with a <2" gap between them--the gants can't move into the gap because it would leave them within 1" of your models--and use that alleyway you've created to disembark and assault. Should work for any transports that have access on the sides.

Falvius: I like your line of thinking. I will have to do this with my land raiders now to crack the impending tervigon-spam at my FLGS

I was initially thinking about a falcon dashing over the gaunt-screen and then unloading his fire dragons. ~ 1,6 wounds by the falcon (assuming pulse laser, shuriken cannon and scatter laser) and ~4 wounds by the six fire dragons. Well, that doesn't necessarily kill that guy... So maybe it's not the best tactic but would pretty much circumvent a possible FNP.

Greets
Schepp himself

My problem with these stupid nids is that they can have 5 in a 15000 point army. Thats 15D6 new gaunts poping out every movement phase that are scoring units and DON'T count for victory points. Already fought them in the local tourney, needless to say it was a clean sweep for him all the way through.

Without an official model, you can bet that there will be those that model them low enough to the ground that gaunts will indeed provide cover saves. Even for a truely monstrous creature scale model, there is always the Venomthrope.

I would like to say this is a place for Tau to shine with railguns and markerlights, but the sad fact of the matter is it would two full pathfinder teams and three full squads of broadsides to pretty much guarantee killing a tervigon every round

Strimen wrote:My problem with these stupid nids is that they can have 5 in a 15000 point army. Thats 15D6 new gaunts poping out every movement phase that are scoring units and DON'T count for victory points. Already fought them in the local tourney, needless to say it was a clean sweep for him all the way through.

Well, yea but at 15,000 points you aught to be able to field more than enough lascannons to deal with things

Vehicles seem to have a strong advantage to dealing with the buggers. Any Leman Russ or even rhino chasis tank should have its turret a good bit higher than gaunt bodies, so at anything other than extreme range that MC won't be 50% covered. Personally, I think the LR Executioner will be the way to go even more vs nids than it already is against everything else, given that 3-5 plasma wounds on MCs is a really solid way to deal with them (Wound on 3+, no armor or FNP) as well as wrecking swarm units.

I had a great deal of luck with Exorcists last weekend vs nids, but then "Play Sisters" is hardly a strong tactical decision In general though using your flamers and bolters to clear the gaunts and then dropping a unit with fist equivalents seems to do the trick. They are not terribly scary in melee, and all the weapons you take to rock Carnies (fists, frost blades etc.) work just as well against them, though it might take a little longer.

I hope like crazy that you meant 5 in a 1500pt army. If they do that, they are going to be extremely hard pressed to kill vehicles of any kind really. It won't matter much about the Gants if you're meched up. Also Missile Launchers/Lascannons can push right through Tervigons if you focus your fire on them. I would be a lot less scared of a 5 Tervigon army than I would be of an army with a Tervigon or two and then the tools to counter the dangerous things you can put on the table (like Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Deathleaper, maybe Tyrannofexes, etc etc).

Head over here, guys: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275046.page#1268574

GW has ruled that Furious Charge no longer works with Counter-Charge, as it should be. So at least now there's a hope of plowing through the gant screen.

Kveldulv wrote:Head over here, guys: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275046.page#1268574

GW has ruled that Furious Charge no longer works with Counter-Charge, as it should be. So at least now there's a hope of plowing through the gant screen.

Yup, thats a huge change. Reducing the little guys to 1 I4 attack instead of 2 I5 attacks when you charge them is an amazing difference. Not getting the charge and trying to kill the Tervigon with fearless resolution is viable for the right units unless a Venomthrope is hanging out nearby.

Don't have the tyranid codex, but does the lost of furious charge on the counter-charge affect the gant poison? Somebody mentioned that further up...

Most certainly. They aren't Str 4 when charged without FC, so will not get re-rolls to wound against SM, Orks, and other T4+ armies

PanzerLeader wrote:

Kveldulv wrote:Head over here, guys: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275046.page#1268574

GW has ruled that Furious Charge no longer works with Counter-Charge, as it should be. So at least now there's a hope of plowing through the gant screen.

Yup, thats a huge change. Reducing the little guys to 1 I4 attack instead of 2 I5 attacks when you charge them is an amazing difference. Not getting the charge and trying to kill the Tervigon with fearless resolution is viable for the right units unless a Venomthrope is hanging out nearby.

It's still 2 attacks - counter-attack doesn't change. The init/strength change is significant, though, and you're right - this probably makes the Venomthrope a better deal for a Tervigon cluster; defensive grenades and dangerous terrain are handy.

Snipers can always work.

Also load of a valk/vend with either a CCS or a vet squad fly it over and rapid fire with plasma guns. If its a CCS or you are within range you can issue fire on my target to the unit. The vet squad should do about 4 wounds, while the CCS should do 5 if my math hammer is correct.

Grey knight Lord or brother captain Stern owns nid MCs now since they don't have EW anymore. STR 6 Force weapon

Lash him out of cover and shoot

Chaos lord with blissgiving in CC.

Janthkin wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Kveldulv wrote:Head over here, guys: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275046.page#1268574

GW has ruled that Furious Charge no longer works with Counter-Charge, as it should be. So at least now there's a hope of plowing through the gant screen.

Yup, thats a huge change. Reducing the little guys to 1 I4 attack instead of 2 I5 attacks when you charge them is an amazing difference. Not getting the charge and trying to kill the Tervigon with fearless resolution is viable for the right units unless a Venomthrope is hanging out nearby.

It's still 2 attacks - counter-attack doesn't change. The init/strength change is significant, though, and you're right - this probably makes the Venomthrope a better deal for a Tervigon cluster; defensive grenades and dangerous terrain are handy.

Yup, mistyped the number of attacks. My bad. But the loss of rerolls against T4 and the loss of I5 makes gaunts play a little more aggressive if they want to survive the counter attack.

Speaking of the Lash of Submission, a thought occurred to me about more ways in which Chaos can murder Tervigons:

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle, in a Land Raider. The Land Raider tank shocks past the Termagants, disgorging the Herald where he can charge the Tervigon. He automatically casts Nurgle's Rot, just to murder some Termagants, because a single Wind of Chaos isn't going to do much to the Tervigon (well, maybe it could, depending on the number of Wounds the Tervigon has left), and its unlikely to affect the Tervigon.

Then he charges the Tervigon and reaps it with the Manreaper, casting Force Weapon on a successful wound, which he might get with 1D6+4A wounding on 4+ and ignoring armour saves (sure, 17% chance of getting into an argument with his esteemed instrument, but you just can't hire good help in this dimension).

If he has a retinue of Plague Marines or Possessed, then they can help assault the Tervigon, multi-charge the Termagants, and heroically die in his stead if he gets caught up in a labour dispute.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of the Lash of Submission, a thought occurred to me about more ways in which Chaos can murder Tervigons:

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle, in a Land Raider. The Land Raider tank shocks past the Termagants, disgorging the Herald where he can charge the Tervigon. He automatically casts Nurgle's Rot, just to murder some Termagants, because a single Wind of Chaos isn't going to do much to the Tervigon (well, maybe it could, depending on the number of Wounds the Tervigon has left), and its unlikely to affect the Tervigon.

Then he charges the Tervigon and reaps it with the Manreaper, casting Force Weapon on a successful wound, which he might get with 1D6+4A wounding on 4+ and ignoring armour saves (sure, 17% chance of getting into an argument with his esteemed instrument, but you just can't hire good help in this dimension).

If he has a retinue of Plague Marines or Possessed, then they can help assault the Tervigon, multi-charge the Termagants, and heroically die in his stead if he gets caught up in a labour dispute.

Don't forget you'll be making that psychic test for the force weapon on 3d6 (and any other psychic power for that matter), unless he has something that prevents that.

Can't forget that, but he has an invulnerable save (not a good invulnerable save, but it helps) and W4. If the Tervigon was injured before he started, it's likely the Force Weapon won't be necessary.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of the Lash of Submission, a thought occurred to me about more ways in which Chaos can murder Tervigons:

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle, in a Land Raider. The Land Raider tank shocks past the Termagants, disgorging the Herald where he can charge the Tervigon. He automatically casts Nurgle's Rot, just to murder some Termagants, because a single Wind of Chaos isn't going to do much to the Tervigon (well, maybe it could, depending on the number of Wounds the Tervigon has left), and its unlikely to affect the Tervigon.

Then he charges the Tervigon and reaps it with the Manreaper, casting Force Weapon on a successful wound, which he might get with 1D6+4A wounding on 4+ and ignoring armour saves (sure, 17% chance of getting into an argument with his esteemed instrument, but you just can't hire good help in this dimension).

If he has a retinue of Plague Marines or Possessed, then they can help assault the Tervigon, multi-charge the Termagants, and heroically die in his stead if he gets caught up in a labour dispute.

You'll want to clear the 'gants first - a careful player won't give you any way to tank shock & disembark. Bonus points for finding a use for Typhus, though!

A number of things

Rending:

Auto-Wound AP 2 is pretty sure to knock off some wounds, I'd think.

High S Weapons:

Plasmas (To a degree) Las-Cannons, Meltas, etc. Should do a pretty good job of shaving off some wounds. Damn that T6 though.

Instant Death:

As far as I'm aware, I don't think Tervigons have access to Eternal Warrior, so any weapon which causes ID should kill it in one (literally) fatal swoop.

And finally: TH/SS Termies.

Cryonicleech:

Yeah, that's all strategy. This thread is about tactics.

Although the thought of floating a squadron of Land Speeders with Assault Cannons nearby to the Tervigon and cutting loose has occurred to me from a strategic perspective since the Land Speeders would avoid any cover save from intervening Termagants.

Force weapons is where Deathleaper helps out.

Seriously though, tactics wise, I don't plan on fielding my tervigons (I think my list has 2 right now, but I'm playing with 3) without Venomthropes right behind them.

Thunder Hammers. THey destroy all >_>

Nurglitch wrote:Although the thought of floating a squadron of Land Speeders with Assault Cannons nearby to the Tervigon and cutting loose has occurred to me from a strategic perspective since the Land Speeders would avoid any cover save from intervening Termagants.

Assault cannons arent necessary. Typhoon speeders with h.bolters would be ideally suited. Dual krak missiles from afar (Doesnt remove FNP, But that does require two tervigons to pull off!) with dual frag missiles & h.bolters moving at 12" for afters.

Vendettas will have a nice vantage point, will worry about those rupture cannons but otherwise should stay mobile. It might even see a resurgence of the usefulness of MRP's.

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Space Marine Librarian. So I will.

Space Marine Librarian (Epistolary) with Might of the Ancients and any other power in Terminator Armor w/ Storm Shield.

180 points.

Use any other tactic to clear a way to the Tervigon, charge him solo using Might of the Ancients (Str 6) to wound on 4+. Use second Psyker power to activate Force Weapon on wound.

Unless I've missed something, you'd be charging with 3 Attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+. With one wound through that, and a requisite two Psychic tests passed, dead Tervigon.

GeneralRetreat wrote:I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Space Marine Librarian. So I will.

Space Marine Librarian (Epistolary) with Might of the Ancients and any other power in Terminator Armor w/ Storm Shield.

180 points.

Use any other tactic to clear a way to the Tervigon, charge him solo using Might of the Ancients (Str 6) to wound on 4+. Use second Psyker power to activate Force Weapon on wound.

That relies on getting off 2 psychic powers on 3d6.

Yeah... if you want to FW it... just bust out a GKGM.

That's where a Chaos Sorcerer on a Disc of Tzeentch has an advantage over both a Librarian and a Grey Knight: He can cast Warptime while he's cheerfully 13" to 18" away from the Tervigon, and outside the range of the Shadow in the Warp. Activate that, jump over the Termagants and charge with six Warptimed Power Weapon attacks, and get 4+ (re-rolled) Invulnerable save against the impending Perils of the Warp when he uses his Force Weapon to Instant Death the Tervigon. He could even pop it one with a Plasma Pistol before charging, re-rolling any Gets Hot! and hitting at 2+.

Did I miss a memo or something? I know I looked at the gaunt entry and nothing about screamed "My opponent getting these units for free is a problem". They're still Gaunts and the Tervigon should run out after 2 truns producing 2 squads of between 10 and 11. It isn't infinite unit production unless he just doesn't roll doubles all game and the tervigon dying will drop half a squad-ish on average.

Also are we seriously talking about the shortest infantry model in the game next to a grot granting cover to a T6 W6 MC? If your opponent models a tervigon that can get cover from gaunts just bitch-slap him with the rulebook.

As far as anti-tervigon tactics, doesn't seem too complicated if you're marines just throw lysander/calgar/vulakn in a TH/SS squad in an LRC and dive in. The tervigons and gaunts wont even come close to taxing these units abilities to save damage and you certainly aren't FnPing TH wounds. For space wolves it gets even easier as a unit of TWC with 2x SS and a PF will easily walk through this wall. Most armies have a resilient and fighty unit that could go through multiple tervigons and a sea of gaunts with little issue and IG have vendettas that just murder the damn things.

Chaos sorceror seems like the best thing for killing it in one shot from full health.


as a grey knight player i would.

tank shock it with a GK LRC(getting past the gaunts) unload either a master or stern and a terminator squad.

shoot it with a the Hurricane bolters(what is the Tervigons armor?) and assault cannon if possible. shoot it with the terminators(psycannon or incinerator)

assault and use the terminators to soak wounds up and use the master/stern to hit on 3+(WS 5) and wound on 4+ and get instant death off with the force weapons.

the average on 3D6 is 10 so it is likely that a space marine will pass.


AND everyone(except matershake)please its GAUNT not gant

the average on 3D6 is 10 so it is likely that a space marine will pass.

Unless death leaper has lowered your leadership by D3 :p

Grey Templar wrote:

AND everyone(except matershake)please its GAUNT not gant

call me a pedant; but it's actually termigant units that gain benefits from tervigon not hormagaunt units.

so yes, the spelling changed. deal.

Remember, tervigon is synapse, shadow of the warp affects the force weapons. What about multiple assualt, if I assualt the Terv, and one if it's brood, with say asualt marines, or slugga boyz. ect, put all my attacks into the gaunts, the power fist or klaw or whatever into the tervigon, and then take out the tervigons remain wounds with fearless checks after you've wiped the gaunts? If you use the transport to tank shock properly you should be able to group the little buggers where you need them to pull it off. So after all that to paraphrase, multi assualt terv and gaunts, and use fearless saves to finish the terv.

doubled:

I think the problem is that Termagants aren't as squishy as they used to be, and that by exposing a squad to the Counter-Assault enabled Termagants (who may also have Poison and Feel No Pain from the Tervigon, and Preferred Enemy from a nearby Tyrant - or is it Swarmlord?). See here.

Tervigon also has Shadow. Also, because Termagants have I4, if you charge them and they get counter-charge off, they'll still maul you pretty good, reducing the number of fearless wounds... especially if Mama gets to fight back too.

Was looking at witch hunters and remembered something that somebody on Dakka (wish I could remember who) posted for TMCs a long time ago:

WH inquisitor with bolter-crossbow w/ 3 acolytes with bolter-crossbows. Throw in a couple of sages for additional accuracy, and that's 8 shots at 24" that wound on 2+ and no armor save allowed. It's only one shot, but they can all shoot simultaneously from the hatch of a chimera for extra safety.

Also, what's the range on Shadow? 12"? If so, then this anti-council tactic from Stelek will work on psychic TMCs too: WH psykers can stand off outside that range and cast first Purgatus (to lower the the Tervigon/TMC Ld to 7 permanently), then have all your inquisitors start casting Hammer of the Witches (unlimited range) to put perils auto-wounds on all the psychic TMCs on the table, no cover or armor saves allowed, must re-roll invulnerables.

You can't Purgatus any of the Tyranid psykers. Better luck next time.

Oh, right, because they're not ICs. Good point, I missed that.

So you'd have to use psyker battle squads to lower their leadership for Hammer, or a culexus assassin hiding behind something. Or just play the odds, spamming Hammer of the Witches from several inquisitors at once and putting maybe a couple of wounds per game on Ld10 bugs. Because the range is unlimited, you could have a couple of 40 point inquisitors standing off in some corners behind LoS-blocking terrain, cranking out the hammer every shooting phase. Add chiurgeons to prevent them taking perils wounds themselves. A Ld8 inquisitor only scores about .13 wounds per turn on a table with 6 or more Ld10 enemy psykers, but the annoyance factor is pretty fun.

I hate the thought of having to face a local's Guard army, where he takes two Psyker Battle Squads and a Caladus [sp] Assassin. Nothing like having your six wound monster Instant Deathed on a 2+ roll.

Except for watching the PBS blow their own heads up from Shadows.

Shadow in the Warp has a range of 12", and the squad has a range of 36". It's not hard for them to fire it off from outside the effects of Shadow in the Warp.

another thing that SMs could do is have 2 Epistolarys, each with Quickining and any other power. they both cast quickining outside of the range of SITW, fleet and then fleet-assault you with I10 powerweapons and both try and ID the TMC with force weapons

chances are one will get his power off even with a negative modifier to Ld

What have most nid players been running? Because if there is an absense of shadow in the warp then I would suggest a cheap Chaos Sorcerer with Warptime, any mark. The only problem is if there is something with that shadow in the warp power.

it isn't a power per say, but an area of effect that any tyranid beast with a psychic power has that is basically Runes of Warding for Nids

ghastli wrote:What have most nid players been running? Because if there is an absense of shadow in the warp then I would suggest a cheap Chaos Sorcerer with Warptime, any mark. The only problem is if there is something with that shadow in the warp power.

The Tervigon itself has Shadow in the Warp.

Ahh thanks for the heads up.. Ive only played against new nids like twice so I dont have all their rules down yet..

Every creature that has Synapse also has Shadow in the Warp.

Is killing Tervigons that important? Sure they are spawning gak loads of termigaunts but if you have more immediate threats then you had better deal with them first. Termigaunts are basically a really cheap bubble wrap for the new Nidz. Vendettas at best can do three wounds per skimmer per turn. Nidz can bust Vendettas with ease if they move slow enough to fire three shots. I am thinking fight fire with fire.

G

I think it kinda is important considering how good those wee little gaunts get when the Tervigon is still around. Tervigons' and Hive Tyrants' combined effects make gaunts pretty ridiculous

Best way to deal with it is to just play Eldar I think and shoot them with 500 S6 guns while you move back wards

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is killing Tervigons that important? Sure they are spawning gak loads of termigaunts but if you have more immediate threats then you had better deal with them first. Termigaunts are basically a really cheap bubble wrap for the new Nidz. Vendettas at best can do three wounds per skimmer per turn. Nidz can bust Vendettas with ease if they move slow enough to fire three shots. I am thinking fight fire with fire.

G

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say, but as for me im not particularly scared of tervigons. They are a cool buff unit, but wont kill much on their own.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is killing Tervigons that important? Sure they are spawning gak loads of termigaunts but if you have more immediate threats then you had better deal with them first. Termigaunts are basically a really cheap bubble wrap for the new Nidz. Vendettas at best can do three wounds per skimmer per turn. Nidz can bust Vendettas with ease if they move slow enough to fire three shots. I am thinking fight fire with fire.

G

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say, but as for me im not particularly scared of tervigons. They are a cool buff unit, but wont kill much on their own.

It's also a 6 wound scoring unit that spawns more scoring units.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is killing Tervigons that important? Sure they are spawning gak loads of termigaunts but if you have more immediate threats then you had better deal with them first. Termigaunts are basically a really cheap bubble wrap for the new Nidz. Vendettas at best can do three wounds per skimmer per turn. Nidz can bust Vendettas with ease if they move slow enough to fire three shots. I am thinking fight fire with fire.

G

I agree. T-fexes and Hive Guard go 1st, then I worry about Tervigons.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of the Lash of Submission, a thought occurred to me about more ways in which Chaos can murder Tervigons:

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle, in a Land Raider. The Land Raider tank shocks past the Termagants, disgorging the Herald where he can charge the Tervigon. He automatically casts Nurgle's Rot, just to murder some Termagants, because a single Wind of Chaos isn't going to do much to the Tervigon (well, maybe it could, depending on the number of Wounds the Tervigon has left), and its unlikely to affect the Tervigon.

Then he charges the Tervigon and reaps it with the Manreaper, casting Force Weapon on a successful wound, which he might get with 1D6+4A wounding on 4+ and ignoring armour saves (sure, 17% chance of getting into an argument with his esteemed instrument, but you just can't hire good help in this dimension).

If he has a retinue of Plague Marines or Possessed, then they can help assault the Tervigon, multi-charge the Termagants, and heroically die in his stead if he gets caught up in a labour dispute.

And with this, Typhus just got almost competitive, depending on your local meta.... Glad to see that codex creep can work in both directions.

But, really, Typhus is a pretty reasonable answer to most TMCs, provided he manages to hang out long enough to nail their hulking bug carcasses to a wall...

I've just put together some D-cannons and i roll a surprising amount of 6's to wound...
Failing that it will be massed firepower, force it to make enough saves and it will go down just like everything else, especially if its doomed.

but you won't roll 6s all the time and T6 will require most weapons to roll 6s to wound pieriod.

massed fire power would entail you making 10+ wounds to begin with and then hopeing it fails 6 armor saves, Doom is a good idea though

the problem is that weapons that will ignore its armor and wound it on a 4 or less will not be present in sufficient quantities to kill it AND all the other TMCs running around.

a scoring unit that spawns other scoring units for an unlimited number of times is way OP

Doesn't the Slaaneshi demon weapon instakill things it wounds without any sort of psychic test? I never thought I would see the day that became "good" but with so many multi wound models running around, it might become pretty handy.

With BolterStake Crossbows, I think the target still gets an armor save. You might be confusing it with the Power Stake, which wounds psykers on 2+ and is a power weapon, though two handed.

I do like the ideo of PBS with Hammer of Witches though. Next game I might put that on my firebase inquisitor and see how it works vs nids.

I'm pretty sure bolter-stake crossbows are Strength 3 AP 5 24" range Assault 2, but always wound on a 2+ and ignore armor when targeting psykers.

Psychers get no armor save from stake crossbows. Witch hunter I lords can be very dangerous to a single Nid MC.

Grey Templar wrote:but you won't roll 6s all the time and T6 will require most weapons to roll 6s to wound pieriod.

massed fire power would entail you making 10+ wounds to begin with and then hopeing it fails 6 armor saves, Doom is a good idea though

the problem is that weapons that will ignore its armor and wound it on a 4 or less will not be present in sufficient quantities to kill it AND all the other TMCs running around.

a scoring unit that spawns other scoring units for an unlimited number of times is way OP

Ahh but D-cannons always wound on a 2+ so i'll at least cause one wound. Failing that a wave serpent rush with guided wraithguard (also wounding on 2+ with 6 to insta-jib) would work just as well.

As for the wounding on a 4+ or less and ignoring saves and the lack thereof regarding quantity. *points at Eldar* if anything i'd say we had too much of those, considering how good out BS can be. The only thing i'm worried about it a swarm army, i wont hold up in CC so the more MC the better for me as they are faster to kill that their equivalent in gaunts and if they go swarm heavy the tervigon should be going rather quickly for lack of other things for my "tank-hunters" to kill.

I think I'd leave the D-Cannons to zot the little bugs, because although they aren't large blast, they will completely ignore any Toughness, Armour, or Feel No Pain that may be involved. The Wraithcannons seem better suited to zotting Monstrous Creatures, although considering the relationship between Tervigon and Termagant, it may be worthwhile just to fire into the crowd and see what happens.

The old "i can't miss" tactic, ill hit something at least.
Same for hawk grenade packs, not as effective but large blast has its advantages.

The problem is you better get in close fast, we did some counts as with a "Big Birthing Berthas' List , 5 tervigons averages out at 140 ish guants, our best in 5 turns was 238 extra guants. It's almost like taking a second army of straight gaunts. Concentrated fire seems the best bet, and if you have hi init models that can hurt it, rending, power claws, frost swords what have you, its you best chance, otherwise unless you can tank shock through the horde in front, you are never going to get close to do a thing to the terv.

doubled wrote:The problem is you better get in close fast, we did some counts as with a "Big Birthing Berthas' List , 5 tervigons averages out at 140 ish guants, our best in 5 turns was 238 extra guants. It's almost like taking a second army of straight gaunts. Concentrated fire seems the best bet, and if you have hi init models that can hurt it, rending, power claws, frost swords what have you, its you best chance, otherwise unless you can tank shock through the horde in front, you are never going to get close to do a thing to the terv.

But 5 tervigons can really do nothing to 5 (or even 3) fast-moving PotMS Land Raiders.

Oh.. and Monoliths with D6 str5 shots at every single unit within 12".. with the amount of squads (atleast 10) that generally want to stay close together.. so much damage will be dished out and there isn't much a tervigon can do to stop a monolith. Well, maybe some.

45 Lootas. Battlewagons with Deff Rollas carrying Burna squads. Nob Bikers or Trukkers with Big Choppas. Kannons! SAG Meks, Tankbustas, etc. As an Ork I'm not worried about Tervigons, because I have bajillions of effective counters, and my basic infantry can tear most Tyranids apart in CC. So the Boyz deal with the Gaunts, and the Nobz charge in to carve slices out of the big boyz. With 4 attacks at WS5, S7, hitting on I4, I'm fairly sure that even a small squad of Big Choppa Nobz can take out a Tervigon.

Say 5 Nobz and a Warboss in a trukk, WAC abused and all with Big Choppas; 25 attacks, 17 hits, 11 wounds, that's got a decent chance to put a Tervigon down in one round for well under 300 points.

A Deff Rolla BW carrying Burnas will probably put a wound on a Tervigon with a Tank Shock, and then you either drop 15 flamer templates or hop out and assault with 45 S4 PW attacks.

45 Lootas; 90 shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds, Tervigon bites the dust. Granted, they're expensive, but you can also split their fire and/or mop up smaller critters with them very easily.


2 SAG Meks will accomplish SOMETHING. They probably won't kill a Tervigon in one round, but they'll put wounds on it and scatter death amongst the gaunts surrounding it.

For a moment there I thought you were proposing all that as a single list

as for the warboss with BC nobz, I believe the Tervigon has a 3+ save, so it would only take an average of 3.6 wounds from the 25 attacks.

The only way the SAG would quickly kill a tervigon would be to get a hit with strength. Otherwise the blast template never causes more than a single wound on the Tervigon, it would take 3 rounds for 2 SAG Meks to kill a tervigon assuming they both hit and wound every round with no cover save.

They would work well against gants, at ap2 they will bypass the FNP. However they (along with lootas) are going to be prime targets for Mawlocs and Trygons.

one of the best ways to kill MCs i have found out is to tank shock them.

even if there is a penetrating hit there is a 40% chance that the MC will get flattened, 50% if the vehicle has extra armor. cheap ork trukks or rhinos can plough right through the TMCs

I tankshocked a Bio-titan once with a rhino, the titan over penetrated by 7 and ripped the storm bolter off It got squashed by a 35 pt transport EPIC FAIL

Um, why would any Tyranid player attempt Death or Glory when being tank-shocked? Fearless units simply don't need to be affected by tank shock.

I'd totally do a Death or Glory if they try and Tank Shock my Spore Pods.

Aduro:

Good point, but it isn't going to work with Tervigons.

Grey Templar wrote:
I tankshocked a Bio-titan once with a rhino, the titan over penetrated by 7 and ripped the storm bolter off It got squashed by a 35 pt transport EPIC FAIL

Now, when was our next Apocalypse match due? I have a Kunnin Plan...

3 groups of 8-9 fire dragons in wave serpents with eldrad catching a ride in 1 to doom 2 mcs and guide his group of dragons = 3 dead tervigons on your second shooting phase lol

mon-keigh slayer wrote:3 groups of 8-9 fire dragons in wave serpents with eldrad catching a ride in 1 to doom 2 mcs and guide his group of dragons = 3 dead tervigons on your second shooting phase lol

A 9-strong squad of fire-dragons who shoot at a doom'ed tervigon will take out about 3.8 wounds. Thats 7.7 wounds per two squads & if you include eldrads squad that bumps it up to a total of 12.8 wounds! But actually one should suffer about 5 wounds (from the doom'ed & guided squad) whilst the other will be over-killed by 1.7 wounds with the other two shooting. Still, thats neeearly dead tervigons.

Still, nearly 900pts of stuff to kill max 400pts of tervigon. And one should live! I'd also like to note, with that many firedragons and the likely number of gants on the field.. it may be tricky to get all within 12" range.

For those working out averages etc for wounding Tervigons, I would suggest assuming it's either in cover, or within 6" of a Venomthrope. Any I make would be

Just shoot a tervigon with heavy weapons. They are a great target for ac's.

It's a 3+ save. Throw in some ml's and it doesn't take much to kill a tervigon.

Now a tfex is a completely different story...

Autocannon Teams with Bring it Down Orders also multilasers work out decent too. Force the +3s and save the lascannons/meltas for the tyrants. Any smart player will make the tervigons run for cover. If he puts FNP on himself then hit him with meltas/lascannons and use the AC vs other MC.

Tau: Missile Pods and long range plasma
Dark Eldar: Darklances
Necrons: Destroyers
Sisters: Exorcists
DH: Allied guard, psycannons
Eldar: guided scatterlasers+doom = dead MC
Guard: mentioned above.
CSM: Oblits and Dakka Preadators
Marines: predators, rifleman dreads, landspeeders
Deamons: Bloodcrushers, flamers, skulltaker

Actually had my first experience playing against an army with a Tervigon this weekend.

When it spawned 11 gants in the first turn, I was kind of like "!"

But then two volleys of krak from a squadron of typhoons took it out before it could spawn any more, typhoons (like much Eldar shooting) having the advantage of being able to move 12" to shoot around the sides of what the Tervie had wanted to use as cover. Then a whirlwind shot took out most of the spawn that same turn, so overall pretty underwhelming.

I played a 2000 pt game against a Nid army last night that had a Tervigon in it. the tervigon spawned 15 gaunts, but was part of a doubles so that was the end of it.

I was playing a 3 LR grey knight list and the tervigon wasn't a threat. i was unable to kill it(regeneration), but it was only a minor anoyance.

the game was annilation and it was a tie with a slight VP favor toward the Nids.

I had previously thought, as a marine player, that Kor'sarro Khan was the most underappreciated special character, and the new Tyranid 'dex just furthers that thought.

Back-of-envelope calculation gives him about a 45% chance of killing a Tervigon in one round on the charge.

Edit:

It's a 44.5% chance of killing a Tervigon. Which is exactly the same chance he has of killing a Trygon, Trygon Prime, Mawloc, or Tyrannofex. He has a marginally better chance of killing a Carnifex, but the difference is too small to be worth figuring. He'll also swing before all of them, and if he fails has a really good shot of surviving a round of combat with any of them except the Carnifex.

The chance drops down to 35.3% against a Hive Tyrant, but he'll still strike first on the charge, and will probably survive unless the Tyrant has a form of Instant Death.

And it drops down to 19.2% against the Swarmlord, who will strike at the same time and probably kill him.

Hrm.

that could work very nicely.

and your calculation assumes he charges alone, and he will nearly 100% of the time have some bikers with him too.

The problem isn't with Khan, it's with getting him somewhere useful.

Either you're running a pretty considerable point investment in the bike command squad, or he's in a Land Raider (in which case his points in Terminators are more efficient in CC, and the Furious Charge buff is largely wasted).

Been wondering how to deal with the new 'Nids with my SoB. Taking 3 Exorcists looks to be the best way to smoosh their MC's but everyone cries cheese when i run that many.

I think i may have to ignore the crying from my bank account and put together the StJohn list (11 Immolators and silly amounts of melta). 'Gants should not be a problem with that many TL HF's driving around, and without their screen, Tervigons won't stand up to a few well placed melta blasts, not to mention the odd wound from a HF.

On a separate note, i do like how the new codex has made some 'untouchable' units worth considering again. I may even consider buying a Culexus for lulz

J.Black wrote:Been wondering how to deal with the new 'Nids with my SoB. Taking 3 Exorcists looks to be the best way to smoosh their MC's but everyone cries cheese when i run that many.

I think i may have to ignore the crying from my bank account and put together the StJohn list (11 Immolators and silly amounts of melta). 'Gants should not be a problem with that many TL HF's driving around, and without their screen, Tervigons won't stand up to a few well placed melta blasts, not to mention the odd wound from a HF.

On a separate note, i do like how the new codex has made some 'untouchable' units worth considering again. I may even consider buying a Culexus for lulz

Just play the exorcists.

imweasel wrote:
Just play the exorcists.

You're probably right. I do think however that the StJohn list has a bit more flexibiity, especially against horde/horde-producing armies. I'll have a flip through the WH codex later and see if i can't combine the two lists somehow It'll probably have to be cut down to 7/8xImmolator and 2xExorcist at 1750pts but given that 'Nids still don't exactly excel in the 'killing armour at range' category (at least compared to other armies) the loss of a couple of tanks shouldn't hurt the lists' effectiveness too much.

Shooting it seems to work just fine 0.o

Grey Templar wrote:and your calculation assumes he charges alone, and he will nearly 100% of the time have some bikers with him too.

sourclams wrote:The problem isn't with Khan, it's with getting him somewhere useful.

Either you're running a pretty considerable point investment in the bike command squad, or he's in a Land Raider (in which case his points in Terminators are more efficient in CC, and the Furious Charge buff is largely wasted).

You don't have to leave him in a bike or terminator squad all game every game. With proper MC management (as pointed out earlier, you can tank shock them with Rhinos -- Death or Glory isn't typically worth the risk to the Tyranid player due to the very reasonable chance of not stopping it with one attack, so you should be able to exert some control over where the big bugs are), you can threaten either a multiple assault or break off Khan and have him and his escort assault different bugs. For being relatively scary in assault, none of the W6 bugs are all that great against a WS6 4+I target.

That Khan can stand toe-to-toe with a Tervigon or Trygon alone if he wants, or lead a squad of something scarier than him to kill some other target gives him a lot of tactical flexibility.

The Furious Charge buff may be "wasted" in some games against Tyranids in cases where it would be more useful to split them up -- but if it is more useful to split them up, well, why not? It just gives you more viable options in the game.

Tank shocking can be deadly against hordes I just realized.

if a model/unit is tank shocked and passes the moral test and is unable to move out of the way it must, repeat MUST, do death or glory.

with the numbers of units in a Nid list it is possible to make MCs have to DoG your vehicles. If the little Gaunts are surrounding their mother(note: the IF)

a Tervigon is only Str 5. if tank shocked by a LR it will be highly unlikely to survive a tankshock IF it cannot physically be moved out of the way. a nid player would not do Death or glory with a Tervigon if given the option

units can be forced off the table by vehicles too. have 3 Lraiders and predators force nid units into a corner and shove them off the board.



This is simply a logical conclusion of my percieved interpertation of the rules. if i am wrong tell me why in a civil manner and cite your sources

Moderator note: To stay on Topic, you should change this post to "I think I found a way that the Tank Shock rules allow you to kill Tervigons surrounded by gaunts", then start a new thread in You Make the Call, then post the link to that thread in this post.

FYI, I don't think it works the way you hope. Much as I'd like it to.

Has anyone said vindicators yet cause strength 10, AP 2 weapons with large blast template should do something.

Yeah, it'll do one wound and the Tervigon will have between 1 and 5 left. You're better off shelling the Termagants around it.

The Masque + Skulltaker.

Move covering unit away move trevigon forward

Last one will likely miss so

and charge with skulltaker!

you better have a good way to kill gaunts though...cuz skulltaker will get assraped after claiming his prize.