Now that it's stickied . . .
PLEASE POST YOUR QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT THE WORLD OF WARMACHINE AND HORDES HERE
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I thought this board could use a thread on the background of the fictional world in which WM/H takes place. This thread is about game fluff and aesthetic design of the PP models and art.

As an opening question, I just recently received the WM Prime MkII rulebook in the mail. For whatever reason, I had not noticed from browsing the models online that Protectorate characters and troops tend to wear masks. Why is this? Is it related to their faith?

(edit) ~3333th post!

http://privateerpress.com/iron-kingdoms/introduction-to-the-iron-kingdoms/deities-of-the-iron-kingdoms

Man's Ancient Patron, Menoth

Symbol of MenothSymbol of MenothThe worship of Menoth (lawful neutral) is ancient, predating the Church of Morrow by millennia. Menoth is a strict, vengeful deity, credited by most humans (even those who follow the Twins) with the creation of the world and mankind. It's unquestionable that Menoth exists, for his priests were once the powerful ruling class of the land. Alas for Menoth, the more uplifting and tolerant message of Morrow began to take hold with the people, and today the worship of Menoth is a minority faith everywhere except the Protectorate. Outside of the Protectorate, the largest minority serving Menoth is among the "Old Faith" of Khador, where many citizens cling tenaciously to the worship of their ancient creator.

Menoth is usually depicted as a masked giant, towering over his frightened worshippers. He demands adherence to a strict code of conduct – part of which is providing constant tribute to Menoth and his priests. The notion that a man may "ascend," so central to the worship of Morrow and Thamar, is blasphemy in the church of Menoth. To Menoth, man's place is to serve his creator, and his reward is to pass quietly into oblivion.

Domains for Menoth's Clerics

Menoth's clerics have access to the domains of Knowledge, Law, Strength and War. Some evil high-level clerics become Scrutators, the feared temple police and policy-makers. Powerful Scrutators can even gain access to the domains of Evil and Destruction.

Cleric Weapon of Choice for Menoth: Flail

So, I take it you answer is "because Menoth is depicted as being masked." This is the only asnwer that I can find, as well. But Menoth is pictured (or statues of him, to be more precise--in the Iron Kingdom Character's Guide) as having a mask of human likeness. Given that he is the principal god of humans, this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why his followers--and Feora is a partial exception here--wear masks which obscure their humanity.

That's a mask on Feora, actually.

Another flip answer: they live in a desert.

Yeah, I know about Feora--I said partially because the lower half is in the likeness of a face.

The desert explains the ninja-type masks but I'm still at a loss on the others. Terrifying the faithful maybe? Then again, you can see more of the Reclaimers than the Scrutators.

So who believes Vinter is truly Reborn? Makeda supporters? Herxis supporters? I wonder if Herxis's conversations with his ancestor aren't just reinforcing his innate will to power. I'm not sure what those conversations might even be like. Are there examples in the fluff?

I don't think Vinter is the reborn. I'm pretty sure he's just a really tough opportunist.

He must be ridiculously tough. His absolute dominance over a culture that revolves around killing your way to the top kind of makes me wonder how he managed to get overthrown in Cygnar.

I think it'd be cooler if was the Reborn. It makes me wonder which Ancestor he is or claims/is acclaimed to be.

Manchu wrote:He must be ridiculously tough. His absolute dominance over a culture that revolves around killing your way to the top kind of makes me wonder how he managed to get overthrown in Cygnar.

I think it'd be cooler if was the Reborn. It makes me wonder which Ancestor he is or claims/is acclaimed to be.

In the background, he's overthrown through the intervention of Morrow. I believe
it's implied that a priest helped Leto overthrow his brother.

In his little history of the Iron Kingdoms at the beginning of Primal, Magnus says the primarch of Morrow helped Leto out. That gets to the core of my remark: some Cygnarans are more politically subtle and ingenious than the Skorne, who eat plots and gak schemes?

Manchu wrote:In his little history of the Iron Kingdoms at the beginning of Primal, Magnus says the primarch of Morrow helped Leto out. That gets to the core of my remark: some Cygnarans are more politically subtle and ingenious than the Skorne, who eat plots and gak schemes?

They basically say that in the Cygnar fluff section of MKII. The Skorne really do love killing. It reminds me of a certain Chaos God who also hates scheming and loves blood .
Personally I would like to know more about the Dragons. We get of lot of fluff about Lord Toruk in MKII but I really would like to know more about Everblight and I'm too cheap to get the original Primal book (Trying to save up for my Cryx force).

What would you like to know? (I've got Primal in front of me right now, browsing through.)

Manchu wrote:What would you like to know? (I've got Primal in front of me right now, browsing through.)

pretty much everything. If that isn't to much . Although specifically his plans about the other dragons, and his selection of his generals.

Toruk or Everblight? AFIK, Toruk wants all His Progeny dead.

Everblight

Everblight laired in Ios to escape Toruk and found the elves whose gods had left were easily swayed into worshiping him. The Elves eventually slew him after Scyrah's return but did not destroy his athanc. He (in athanc form) eventually was moved close by to the Nyss, who he enslaved. Vayl joined of her own free will, however.

Everblight is supposedly the smallest and most cunning of Toruk's children, from what I
remember.

What makes him unique is the ability to control the expression of his blight. After being de-carnated, he found he could plant pieces of his athanc into other beings to mutate them (through his blight) into monsters. He can perceive through these creatures and shares their minds.

A bit about Everblight in Ios from the retribution book:
he was hiding under the empty shrine of their missing goddess of the night for some time before he was discovered. when the Iosan army came after him he went on a rampage and destroyed the city Issyrah before they "killed" him reducing him to basically a glowing bowling ball of evil.
To prevent him from regenerating they placed him on top of the highest, coldest mountain(apperently exreme cold prevents dragons from regenerating), not knowing their cousins the Nyss were nearby, and he laid dormant for 214 years until Thagrosh dug him up. it has only been about 5 years since he was recovered by Thagrosh.
thats all ive got, i just thought hordes players might not have the details from the ret book.

All of that is basically included in Primal, told in the first person by Everblight. According to Primal, he never goes dormant but it is a struggle.

Why was Everblight in Ios though? It doesn't make much sense as to why he was there.

He was hiding out after losing a fight to Toruk. The only reason he survived was that he led Toruk to another dragon and slipped away while those 2 fought. He found an underground lake and lay in it to recover.

Unfortunately for the Iosans, it was under Issyrah and he pretty much figured out how to use his blight to manipulate lesser beings by practicing on the Iosans. At least until they flushed him out and dismembered him.

Does anybody have the Iron Kingdoms RPG books, and the time and skill to create an article for Dakka?

I am thinking of one that is independant of Malfred's excellent summaries.(Hurry up and get to Cryx!)

This is something that it would be cool if PP did on their site,
but I would rather they use their time to work on minis and rules.

So, as I'm certainly interested in Warmachine's fluff, what's up with Magnus and the whole traitor to Cygnar thing?

All I know is that there was some kind of coup and Magnus was on the losing side.

skrulnik wrote:Does anybody have the Iron Kingdoms RPG books, and the time and skill to create an article for Dakka?

I am thinking of one that is independant of Malfred's excellent summaries.(Hurry up and get to Cryx!)

This is something that it would be cool if PP did on their site,
but I would rather they use their time to work on minis and rules.

Um, sorry, but Cryx is a long ways off. I'm on Khador now, and Protectorate next.

I'm trying to have the groundwork in place for when the Force Books drop so that there's
as little agitation as possible.

(At least you're not waiting on mercs...)

@skrulnik: If you have a particular question, I won't mind looking through the books and trying to answer it--that's exactly what this thread is for. (I don't like the idea of fluff articles because fluff should be discussed. Good fluff is open to multiple interpretations.)

@Cryonicleech: Most simply put, Cygnar under Vinter Raelthorne IV was becoming an authoritarian police state. His younger brother, Leto, allied with the Church of Morrow (the good deity of Cygnar) to orchestrate a coup, which was successful. Vinter IV fled into the east. Officers who fought for Vinter against Leto were offered pardons--even those like Asherth Magnus, who had led guerrilla campaigns against the new King. Magus was duly pardoned and reassigned to the northern borders, where he ruthlessly prosecuted Cygnar's fight against Khador. When Magnus tortured Khadoran prisoners to obtain intelligence, one of his subordinates (Coleman Stryker) reported him and he was imprisoned for some time. After his return to duty (having been demoted), Magnus gathered Cygnaran soldiers hostile to Leto's rule and deserted. He is now a wandering mercenary. Magnus is perhaps the staunchest Vinter IV loyalist alive. He is critical of Leto and other Cygnaran kings who have allowed Cygnar to decline through, he believes, weak-willed observance of the Corvis treaties that created the Iron Kingdoms. He lauds Vinter's legendary martial skill and merciless approach to politics.

And now Magnus... well. You need Hordes: Evolution and Hordes: Metamorphosis to find out I suppose...

Are you referring to his reunification with the Conquerer?

Perhaps. Or AM I?

puahahaha...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's actually a fight scene with Vinter in it in Metamorphosis.

malfred wrote:There's actually a fight scene with Vinter in it in Metamorphosis.

That's not a fight, it's an execution!

Whatever it was, it was awesome.

Skorne had the best fights in Metamorphosis, come to think of it.

Could you elaborate?

Due to the unique nature of this thread within the forum I've stickied it.

Cheers, W_G.

Still waiting on Mal or George to elaborate on what happens with Magnus in Metamorphosis.

He gets captured and tortured and people's ideas change.

I'm having trouble finding information on this.

Problem is, I'd have to read it carefully again. I don't have the books with me at the
moment, and I won't be home until later.

Ah. I skimmed through Metamorphasis (pdf--my IRL copies of this and Evolution are in the mail from ye olde thewarstore.com) and didn't see anything about Magnus other than Orrik looking into him. My attention was admittedly distracted by the jaw-dropping Skorne stuff. Why did Makeda do it? What convinced her?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I see that all these things are in Evolution.

Ah. Hehe, I forget that it was Evolution. My bad.

i have a question since i never found out where this story was located; what happened to vlad in that forest to injure him and get the old witch to make him go epic? i dont even know the slightest bit of that story.
also, were there any notable stories from the leagues or campaigns? i cant find out how to view the dispatches and such since i cant sign up for any event with no lgs.

Vlad got critically injured in a fight to stop some cryxian ritual. It was a side-mission in one of the campaigns of Escalation. A lot of the setup for casters going epic in Apotheosis is done in those missions, like Stryker trying to save a churchful of civillians in the middle of a fight between Khadoran and Protectorate forces...

who was Denegrha's sister?

it IS Cygnar's caster Haley.

as bonus fluff: Haley actually killed denny using her own jack against her. That jacks has been modified and is now nightmare.. I do not know which book this was in, but it is from MKI, presumably the one which features E-haley and e-denny.

whose side is Magnus now in?

That's a very good question. The answer still seems to be Vinter.

current Vinter is now somekind of a god king right?

how would cygnar develop if Vinter is never you know....get deposed

I have or have access to many of the books, but I have no idea what order to look at them in. I desperately want to know the fluffy goodness behind Warmachine - is there a list anywhere that puts this stuff in order?

Retrias wrote:current Vinter is now somekind of a god king right?

how would cygnar develop if Vinter is never you know....get deposed

Vinter, until very recently, was viewed as the Reborn, a reincarnated Skorne warlord, which is a big deal because Skorne souls that aren't Exalted get cast into the Void where they either cease to be or eventually become the stuff of Banes. Of course, when he ended up betraying the Skorne, Makeda ended up declaring herself Supreme Arch Domina and took over the Skorne Empire herself. Vinter's current whereabouts are unknown, especially given Morghoul's revelation to Magnus that Vinter betrayed him as well.

As for what would have happened to Cygnar if Vinter had won? Similar to what it is now, except Renegades and Manglers would be standard issue, Stryker would be dead, and they'd be using human wave tactics to make a Khadoran blush.

Is there a list of how many lich lords toruk keeps in service?
What they look like? A discription perhaps?
As they must all be different as Asphexious is to Terminious.
An elaboration on terminous's exploits? casters he has knocked horns with from a fluff point of view.
Where do the lich lords lurk, do they come together to vote on probable avenues of war or do they distrust/dislike one another, it seems imposable anything save a god could win a debate against Lord terminious. So i dont imageine them comeing together often fear of being killed, are they all warcasters? If so it dose not suprise me I have a much stronger backround in 40k fluff where hero's/primarchs exist, yet do not have the courage/ ability to be played useing the games machanks.


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I would also like to mention, that while I inturpret the curent fluff behind Magnus to be that he is still loyal to vinter, I would like to think he wages war against a entire country in hopes of forging HIS OWN empire. That would be sick, he is the true army of one and as long as he has those ridiculous renagades he stands a chance.

Magnus is kind of a neat character, given that during Vinter's reign he seemed to be a self-promoting opportunist who amorally carried out Vinter's atrocities just to get ahead. And yet he's remained fanatically loyal even after the rebellion, even (in my view) after being totured by the Skorne. Maybe he just can't cope with living in a society where atrocity is superficially unacceptable. There could be some interesting comparisons to unrepentant Nazis. In any case, I doubt that anything he does is directed at forging his own kingdom/state/empire--not as long as Vinter is alive, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shane wrote:I have or have access to many of the books, but I have no idea what order to look at them in. I desperately want to know the fluffy goodness behind Warmachine - is there a list anywhere that puts this stuff in order?

Warmachine releases advance the plot. The chronology therefore follows the order of publication. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmachine#Releases

Kapton Morgunz wrote:Is there a list of how many lich lords toruk keeps in service?
What they look like? A discription perhaps?
As they must all be different as Asphexious is to Terminious.
An elaboration on terminous's exploits? casters he has knocked horns with from a fluff point of view.
Where do the lich lords lurk, do they come together to vote on probable avenues of war or do they distrust/dislike one another, it seems imposable anything save a god could win a debate against Lord terminious. So i dont imageine them comeing together often fear of being killed, are they all warcasters? If so it dose not suprise me I have a much stronger backround in 40k fluff where hero's/primarchs exist, yet do not have the courage/ ability to be played useing the games machanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to mention, that while I inturpret the curent fluff behind Magnus to be that he is still loyal to vinter, I would like to think he wages war against a entire country in hopes of forging HIS OWN empire. That would be sick, he is the true army of one and as long as he has those ridiculous renagades he stands a chance.

I think only 7 have been named or pieced together according to the Cryx book and other sources. Well technically 6 since Haley whacked one in the front of the Cygnar book. I still expect Denny to replace that one once they get around to double epic / legendary / insert noun here for the next version of the casters.

Most of your other questions would be answered as best as possible in the Cryx Forces book.

Terminus
Gaspy (he killed Daeamortus)
Venethrax
M-....head of information gathering the guy in the fluff of the Cryx forces book.

Umm, no more off the top of my head.

LL Thalassina - Foreign Affairs
LL Corripio - Archive of Skell
LL Malathrax - Intelligence
LL Fuimenus - Necromantic Research
LL Tenebrus - Esoteric Research
LL Venethrax - Draconic Lore
LL Morbus - War Industry
LL Divinitus - Church or Lord Toruk
LL Angorus - Treasury
LL Terminus - Mainland Army
LL Asphyxious
LL Scopulous - Cryxian Reserves

Thx a bunch, that is awesome.
Foreign Affairs...lol.
As lol as Reznik being public relations.

lol all you want. I believe that's what it says in the Cryx book.

is there any mention, that they all are casters?
The foreign Affairs is funny, what could he possiably do
-reply to hate mail all day?
-Maintain the work relationship with kell Boomhowler and gormen?

And I have to say id really like to see the church of cryx, That just sounds sickkk!

I also really like the archive/ lich lord librarian
"silence! or I'll cull your soul"

So then they hate/attempt to kill each other? Im thinking not

Huge thanks to you all.

In my mind this is what she does all day:

*knocks on door. Sleepy Peasant answers*

Thalassina: "Hello! Have you accepted Toruk as your lord and savior?"

She then starts handing out "Your first re-animation is free" cards because people will be needing them "eventually". Especially since the next person knocking on the peasant's door is a Menite representative.

Is there any intresting fluff on Ashlyn The revolutionary?

Perhaps exploits, victoryies, Defeats, Hated/favored opponents.

theres fluff on her uneasy allegiance with the POM and Severius...pretty tense!

wait what alliance?

and from what i understand magnus no longer works for / with vinter after the torture

Does MK II of Warmachine (and I guess of Hordes too) continue the storyline started in the MK I books?

Yes.

Both Prime and Primal summarize the major events of the Warmachine
and Hordes books. It's not as cool as the stories themselves, but the plot
does continue from where it left off.

dragons,

how many are there and there status?

Toruk is the only one you need to know .

We know of one hiding in the Wrymwall south of Cygnar. There is the preserved Anthrac of one in Khador. And a few others that are confirmed hiding or eaten.

Everblight is the only one that is currently active and scheming.

We know of one hiding in the Wrymwall south of Cygnar. There is the preserved Anthrac of one in Khador. And a few others that are confirmed hiding or eaten.

IIRC, the Athanc in Khador was Everblight. The Nyss territories are technically part of the Empire, although not many people head that far north.

Blighterghast is lurking in the Wyrmwall Mountains, watching for Toruk to make a move. Likely to change soon, of course, given that they've all declared war on Everblight for eating Pyromalfic. Not too sure where Scaefang is at the moment, although she did a fly-over the Castle of the Keys to confirm Pyromalfic's death (killing quite a few Skorne on the way). Halfaug is somewhere in the Shard Spires, making her Ethrunbal's neighbor. There's another dragon by the name of Chimera that's currently lurking in the Great Rift. It's quite insane, as it was nearby when the elves went boom. Another two dragons (Ashnephos and Charsaug) live Skorne-ward, being the result of the dragon Edross' Athanc being dismembered by the giants (did not turn out well for them).

Pretty much all of them (possibly excepting Chimera, due to its insanity) recieved Blighterghast's call to war against Ethrunbal, including Toruk, and their pact against Toruk pretty much requires them to respond (or be eaten by Blighterghast). While dragons are immortal and their plans rather labrynthine, the Iron Kingdoms are likely to see another full-on draconic war soon.

Laughing Man wrote:

We know of one hiding in the Wrymwall south of Cygnar. There is the preserved Anthrac of one in Khador. And a few others that are confirmed hiding or eaten.

IIRC, the Athanc in Khador was Everblight. The Nyss territories are technically part of the Empire, although not many people head that far north.

There is another...

The fluff in the Forces of Cryx book has a scene where the Old Witch actually makes a deal with Denny to get the Athanc back to Toruk and away from one of the more ambitious Lich Lords. This results in Venethrax raiding a temple and finding a massive and ancient complex designed to keep the Athanc frozen so as not to regenerate.

It's a cool story and also sets Cryx on a collision course with the cult of Cysus as they're probably the ones who built it.

there's a supposed "good " dragon im not sure who it is it could be blightergast but i believe it hides / masquerades as a human or something

@Gr3y:
Is that the same Cult that Mortinebra came from? Could be one of those additional reasons why Morti is on the mainland and not just a forward push onto the mainland.

Santjud: It is. It's also the most (un)perfect matchup for Cryx as that cult tends to build stuff like Iron Maidens and other advanced mechanika that would deny the Cryxians souls for their magics and flesh for their thralls.

Wouldn't be too surprised if we see a Cysuian mercenary in the next few books as they're not currently represented (the Squire doesn't count).

Morti is on the mainland for a lot of reasons. Most likely is that she may be the new Lich Lord if Gaspy gets his way. She's loyal to him, and already oversees a huge chunk of operations. Plus, I'd need to check the book, but I think her responsibilities overlap with Daeamortus', who Gaspy had assassinated for... some reason or another.

Gr3y wrote: Plus, I'd need to check the book, but I think her responsibilities overlap with Daeamortus', who Gaspy had assassinated for... some reason or another.

dude cheated at cards, he had it coming

Not really, Gaspy really just wanted his eye as bling bling for his walking stick...and needed to accessorize eDenny with Daeamortus' walking stick.

Where is the Denny vs Haley showdown detailed out?

Escalation then concluded in NQ1 i think

Bakerofish wrote:Escalation then concluded in NQ1 i think

Thanks you, been looking for the full details on the confrontation. Been finding bits and pieces and references but wanted the whole story.

i think the conclusion was in the PP website as well? I found something when i typed in their names on google but work blocks the site so cant confirm

I'm wanting to get into Hordes, playing Circle. Is there any fluff focusing on Baldur I can read to make me like the character more than the model? Preferably something reasonably easy to get a hold of.

All three Hordes books (Primal, Evolution, and Metamorphosis) have Baldur fluff. He doesn't really appear in the Circle book, IIRC, given he got shot to hell by Lylyth and is currently being sat upon by Megalith. Think there's a Gavin Kyle file on him in one of the newer NQs as well.

Is it just me, or is King Leto an abject failure? Pretty much everything that he touches in the fluff kind of blows up in his face.

keezus wrote:Is it just me, or is King Leto an abject failure? Pretty much everything that he touches in the fluff kind of blows up in his face.

Maybe thats just the set up for Vinter's (sp?) Return???

Leto is not a bad king, as even effin' MAGNUS admits, but often hurts his supporters to try futilely to curry favor with people who will hate and work to destroy him literally no matter what he does. This is the long and short of most of the Cygnaran throne's "dirty deeds."

Otherwise, lots of the nobles, particularly in the Fourth Army's country, are a buncha jerks, muttering about how much better things were under Vinter and working to bring him back by killing trolls and destabilizing that situation even worse, funding mercs to assassinate sufficiently competent army officers to create an appetite for militaristic fascism, and just generally being nebulously evil in an effort to get rewarded by a guy who subscribes to the Jaffarian, "your eternal reward" school of gift-giving.

And then poopoo'in ol' Leto when he bends over backwards to try, and I cannot stress this enough, futilely to smear some ointment on the bug they've got up their collective rectums.

Remember too, for every Lord Laddermore, killing trolls to destabilize the northland, there's a Jeremiah Kraye working to try to get them to coexist by helping them out at the expense of things that really deserve it, like the Skorne.

Speaking of ol' Captain Kraye, I really like his appearances in the faction book and the Trollblood faction book my friend let me read. I'd like to know where I should look to try to find more stories about him, whether old rulebooks or issues of NQ. Did he get his own introductory story? What has he done besides kinda be there helping other people out when the s*** gets real?

SpectralTime wrote:Leto is not a bad king, as even effin' MAGNUS admits, but often hurts his supporters to try futilely to curry favor with people who will hate and work to destroy him literally no matter what he does. This is the long and short of most of the Cygnaran throne's "dirty deeds."

Heh. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Nobody disputes that Leto's INTENTIONS are good... but the guy should really learn to not over-reach his ability. He's a naive idealist with no sense of practicality. In that respect, he's the complete opposite of Vinter, who shows ruthless practicality.

Lion's Coup
Ideal: Liberate the people from Vinter's Tyranny.
Plan: Defeat and exile Vinter.
What actually happened: Underestimated, and almost got his ass killed by Vinter. Got saved at the last minute. Exiled Vinter
Why this is stupid: Apart from the almost getting killed part, considering his first hand experience of Vinter's toughness, exile isn't going to hinder Vinter in the slightest.
What he should have done: Brought appropriate force into play against Vinter and then EXECUTED him.
Result: War vs. Skorne, Vinter's Loyalist Insurgency

Trollbloods
Idea: Right injustices inflicted on the Kriels
Plan: Honor the treaties with the Kriels.
What actually happened: If he did as he promised, he wouldn't be King for very much longer.
Why this is stupid: Either he has no idea what his promise entailed, or he vastly underestimated the political clout of the guys he would be offending.
What he should have done: Clarity of thought before rashess of action.
Result: War vs. Kriels

Magnus
Ideal: War with honor.
Plan: Enforce his ideal.
What actually happened: Gets rid of Magnus for being "unethical".
Why this is stupid: He disgraces Magnus for doing stuff that needs to be done, and when he realizes it, makes Stryker into a new Magnus so that those things get done.
What he should have done: Promoted Magnus to Commander of Secret Service.
Result: Insurgency. Direct threat to the throne.

This whole gak about Leto bending over backwards for the Vinter loyalists is stupid in the extreme as well. You state in your own post that his attempts to appease the nobles IS FUTILE. Vinter would have killed them for such talk of rebellion. While Leto is not Vinter, a less violent method of pacifying these guys is to redistribute their lands. This would decrease their holdings while simultaneously raising support for the crown in other sectors. Trouble is, with all this other gak happening with Khador (unavoidable), Skorne (partially Leto's fault), Trolls (partially Leto's fault), Protectorate (partially Leto's fault - threat could be reduced by alowing at least equal recognition to Church of Morrow) and Cryx (business as usual), Cygnar is fighting a 5 front war by itself instead of fighting a two front war with a neutral Troll buffer - and he NEEDS the help of those nobles to hold the country together against his enemies.

You only need to look as far as Khador to see what a ruler with common sense looks like. If Leto ruled Khador, they'd be sitting behind their border fortresses instead of expanding. The Butcher would have been imprisoned for being the Butcher, Berserker warjacks and Doom Reavers would be retired, there would be a war on the Kayazy and Irusk would be busy pacifying a revolt from the Menites.

anyone know where I can find fluff on Protectorate, and Gator-men? Rather new to the game and I really don't know where to find some fluff for anything really.

Technically, Vinter wasn't exiled. He staged one hell of a jailbreak, escaping on Cygnar's only airship prototype with the new queen (who is now presumed dead) as a hostage.

It's worth mentioning that Empress Ayn Vanar stands head and shoulders above her predecessors as a successful politician. She's an incredibly shrewd woman.

Gatorman fluff you can mostly find in their Forces book ( Forces of Hordes: Minions ) although there is a little bit in Domination. Protectorate fluff goes all the way back through the Mk1 books.

keezus wrote:

SpectralTime wrote:Leto is not a bad king, as even effin' MAGNUS admits, but often hurts his supporters to try futilely to curry favor with people who will hate and work to destroy him literally no matter what he does. This is the long and short of most of the Cygnaran throne's "dirty deeds."

Heh. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Nobody disputes that Leto's INTENTIONS are good... but the guy should really learn to not over-reach his ability. He's a naive idealist with no sense of practicality. In that respect, he's the complete opposite of Vinter, who shows ruthless practicality.

That's his reputation, yes. In reality, he was trying to kill or imprison all magic users in Cygnar. ALL of them. Think the nation would be better off without a single warcaster?

Lion's Coup
Ideal: Liberate the people from Vinter's Tyranny.
Plan: Defeat and exile Vinter.
What actually happened: Underestimated, and almost got his ass killed by Vinter. Got saved at the last minute. Exiled Vinter
Why this is stupid: Apart from the almost getting killed part, considering his first hand experience of Vinter's toughness, exile isn't going to hinder Vinter in the slightest.
What he should have done: Brought appropriate force into play against Vinter and then EXECUTED him.
Result: War vs. Skorne, Vinter's Loyalist Insurgency

Not true in the least. He DID bring a massive force of men to capture Vinter, who carved through them all like a min-maxer on steroids. Leo only had to fight Vinter in the first place because Vinter single-handedly killed dozens of Leto's loyalist guards in the process. Again: he didn't EXILE Vinter, and, as he tried to TRY Vinter THEN execute him, to show that HIS Cygnar would be a place ruled by law, not the whims of a tyrant, the Inquisition kidnapped his wife and forced him to release Vinter. Then Vinter, who is a peerless dick, killed her anyway and escaped in a flying machine no one thought would work, into a place no one thought life could exist, where no one could follow him.

What SHOULD he have done that he didn't do? Say, "feth it, sure, kill my wife, I don't care"?

Trollbloods
Idea: Right injustices inflicted on the Kriels
Plan: Honor the treaties with the Kriels.
What actually happened: If he did as he promised, he wouldn't be King for very much longer.
Why this is stupid: Either he has no idea what his promise entailed, or he vastly underestimated the political clout of the guys he would be offending.
What he should have done: Clarity of thought before rashess of action.
Result: War vs. Kriels

A gross oversimplification. Leto and Ironhide are friends and bloodbrothers, and the kriels would have been in trouble from the war with the Khadorians, especially with all the racist Menites and body-hungry Cryxians running around in Khador-occupied Thornwood. He ARMED the kriels to act as a military buffer against the Khadorians, and it worked fine. The problem came when the skorne, who, I cannot stress enough, NO ONE knew about, came out of a place NO ONE thought life could exist, and started killing them too.

The war with the kriels came when a) Madrak tried to ask for more land and, instead of immediately decapitating Lord Laddermore and giving all that traitors lands to him, Leto tried to curry favors and ask for more time and b) that old racist bastard Doomshaper saved Madrak's life from the blackclad assassins and got too much clout over the kriels in the process.

Leto's faults lie in trying to curry favor with greedy Vinter loyalists who will NEVER support him, not in failing to aid the kriels.

Magnus
Ideal: War with honor.
Plan: Enforce his ideal.
What actually happened: Gets rid of Magnus for being "unethical".
Why this is stupid: He disgraces Magnus for doing stuff that needs to be done, and when he realizes it, makes Stryker into a new Magnus so that those things get done.
What he should have done: Promoted Magnus to Commander of Secret Service.
Result: Insurgency. Direct threat to the throne.

Magnus was offered a PARDON for his crimes and REFUSED IT to wander as a disreputable mercenary in Vinter's service. Since the impetus is all Magnus's, what more could he have done? Magnus CHOSE not to work for him.

This whole gak about Leto bending over backwards for the Vinter loyalists is stupid in the extreme as well. You state in your own post that his attempts to appease the nobles IS FUTILE. Vinter would have killed them for such talk of rebellion. While Leto is not Vinter, a less violent method of pacifying these guys is to redistribute their lands. This would decrease their holdings while simultaneously raising support for the crown in other sectors. Trouble is, with all this other gak happening with Khador (unavoidable), Skorne (partially Leto's fault), Trolls (partially Leto's fault), Protectorate (partially Leto's fault - threat could be reduced by alowing at least equal recognition to Church of Morrow) and Cryx (business as usual), Cygnar is fighting a 5 front war by itself instead of fighting a two front war with a neutral Troll buffer - and he NEEDS the help of those nobles to hold the country together against his enemies.

You only need to look as far as Khador to see what a ruler with common sense looks like. If Leto ruled Khador, they'd be sitting behind their border fortresses instead of expanding. The Butcher would have been imprisoned for being the Butcher, Berserker warjacks and Doom Reavers would be retired, there would be a war on the Kayazy and Irusk would be busy pacifying a revolt from the Menites.

No, because the Vinter-loyalist nobles (and they're ALL nobles and upper-class elitists, the common people hated Vinter) ARE the Kayazy in this situation. Lazy, entitled bastards who grow fat on the lands they never earned. The Empress Herself thinks so, and the only reason she gets anywhere is by moving over their heads. Leto, stuck in a five-way war, has to work with the economy he's got and Leto is (as MAGNUS HIMSELF claims) a shrewd economic ruler. Unfortunately, unlike the Khadorians, the Cygnaran throne has historically not had a strong central army, and building one as part of his New Cygnar has been a drain on the nation's coffers. He can't just drop the nobles overnight, because he needs their military support til he can finish his own.

As to the Protectorate... dude. That one's ALL Vinter. It was only HIS cruel oppression that led to them arming up in earnest.

And... well, Vlad, Irusk, and the rest of High Kommand are all in favor of doing just that to the Butcher and his Murder Playhouse Pals: killing or imprisoning them all. They're only good at MURDERING, not taking and holding territory.

The problem is that you are taking situations that fething NO ONE would be equipped to handle well, and then say Leto sucks for not handling them well. He'd doing the best he can in an absolutely terrible situation, and, really, I can't blame him for that.

Honestly? I'm sorry if I sound mad here, but I've had this argument a million times, and I feel the main point against Leto is not the thing's he's done wrong, but that he's not Vinter, some misguided idea that being a badarse automatically makes you a good king. And, sorry, but that's a load of troll dung.

Vinter will always be the better king.

He gave us Magnus, and Magnus is a hundred times cooler than Stryker, who Leto gave us.


It's an amusing point to note that outside of LOLZGODMODE ( as verified by Seacat ) Vinter would remain king until like, he died of old age or something. Leto and all his compatriots would have been killed and its safe to say anyone else uprising would die over time.


As far a mages go, only certain types of magic were barred by the Inquisition. Vinter had warcasters in his service, such as Magnus himself. These warcasters were used quite extensively through his rule. There were also divine casters like the priests of Morrow.

Most of the "bad" magic people they were hunting down were Thamarites and Cryiss cultists.

Like Lord Hinjo, a fellow beneficiary of divine action, I can only say that it appears not everyone in the Iron Kingdoms agrees with your analysis.

I think its pretty fair to say half my post was just personal opinion, and that personal opinion will vary. People on the right who like Vinter's style of rulership are probably always going to prefer him, while more liberal people probably see Leto as the only sane option. They both operate very differently which kind of polarizes people on the subject.


It's really awesome though, to me, that Vinter has these grand schemes where everything beneath him is 100% disposable. Schemes that are virtually guaranteed to work except when "weakness" infests his ranks. As evidenced in Magnus' first major command Vinter considered the loss of 99% of the forces therein destroyed to be a successful mission just because they destroyed their target. For any other commander staggering losses like that would be a total failure, but for Vinter the death of men is meaningless.

He's rather detached from them like pIrusk. Probably views them as a raw resource or just numbers on an Excel spreadsheet. LOL.



The factual aspect ( to the fluff ) is that the only reason Leto & co are alive is because of a single round of Quickened and such spells. The Primarch ( or w/e ) just dropped a flashbang grenade followed by a full heal on Leto and that's what turned it around. Without that spell intervention no one would ever feasibly beat Vinter. At least not in the realm of swordplay.

So in honorable duel-based combat Vinter would probably never die, and remain king for as long as he lived. Only dishonorable methods have any chance of success, such as intervention, poison, overwhelming numbers, and that kind of thing.



I mean I think we can all personally relate to a time in our life where we see two people want to slug it out to resolve something, and then as soon as the one buddy starts losing his friend jumps in and goes for a sucker punch. That's the kind of visceral disgust the fluff generates in Vinter fans towards Leto. ( and I guess to Leto fans to a point )

Oh, Morrow, don't get me wrong. Vinter climbed out of the wreckage of a flying machine in the middle of a barren, empty speck of nothing and immediately punched people in the face until he became an emperor. Most of the time, when you say someone "single-handedly" conquered an empire, you mean his army did it without support.

Vinter Raelthorne IV SINGLEHANDEDLY conquered an empire.

I may not like him, but that's just plain awesome. My argument's that Cygnar would NOT necessarily be in a better position now if he were in charge. And, considering Morrow appears to agree, eh. Kinda... It's ambiguous, I thought, but don't the Primarch's haters say he did what you described, and his apologists say Morrow himself reached down and reversed their positions?

If the former, I can KINDA see where you're coming from, but, if the latter... well, when the friend in question is Iron Kingdoms Jesus, I think I'll keep from arguing with the guy.

I was always under the impression Morrow personally oversaw the transition from Vinter to Leto, but Doug Seacat made it clear in the PP forums that he didn't personally intervene. The head priest of the Morrowan faith acted of his own accord in using his magic might to resolve the confrontation.

It was actually kind of depressing to read because it pointed out more clearly that the Primarch acted partly because of political concerns. Seems kind of shabby but it is what it is I guess. I suppose you could say that if Morrow disagreed he'd not lend the spell, but, I don't think he really watches over that kind of thing that closely.


It is worth mentioning in Leto's defense however that he didn't expressly ASK for the aid. I mean obviously he had his troops there to ensure things went peacefully, but he didn't really tell the Primarch to step in. That's just something the priest did - which seemed kind of ridiculous. Obviously though he arrested his brother and wasn't going to just flop on the floor like "oh no man it's ok, you got me."

I really wish Leto was written with less naivety though. I think that's what makes people think he's all soft and lame. He's an accomplished general and an obvious combatant, but the fluff makes him seem kind of dumb. Like the fact that even his closest allies are lying to him and he doesn't know it. ( The warmaster or whatever is sending Caine to try and kill Julius behind Leto's back )

Props to Leto for doing the right thing though. I'm sure if he knew Julius was in danger from his own loyalist troops he'd be like "uh, hell no."

It's the curse of the Cygnaran throne. Whosoever sits in it suddenly becomes much more susceptible to poor decision making habits and baffling decisions that prolong the conflict of the setting and allow drama to unfold!

This is the fate that awaits Vinter as well!

It was probably secretly cursed by Cryx hundreds of years ago, and no one has noticed yet.

Watch someone will knock it over and there will be a bunch of infernal runes on the bottom or something. XP

Ya know, I never did hear where I could go to find more stories about Captain Kraye...

Can someone please list all books for hordes (MK1 and MK2) in chronological order they where first printet?

Thanks

Prime
Escalation
Apotheosis
Primal
Superiority
Evolution
Legends
Prime 1.5 (here, I think, but it's outside of the main story so doesn't really matter)
Pirates of the Broken Coast (here, again, not sure/doesn't matter)
Metamorphosis

Retribution
Prime 2
Cygnar
Khador
Prot
Cryx
Mercs
Primal 2
not sure the order after this, sorry

Skorne
Trolls
Legion
Circle
Minions
Wrath
Domination
Colossal (June 2012)

It's been quiet in this thread for a while, but I would've opened my own if it wasn't for this one. I just love the Warmahordes fluff. I'm currently reading up on the Hordes stuff in the Mk2 books and I like it a lot. Especially the Gatormen, who have like the coolest faction fluff EVAR.

So, Bloody Barnabas is old, like, older than any Gatorman before him. And they don't die of old age, but usually from being viciously murdered by something. And now he sees only one solution: become a GOD! How friggin' cool is that? And his second in command, Caliban, he's just hanging around, because however Barnabas' plan to lead the Gatormen into the biggest battle ever so he can ascend will end, he'll be the one left in charge. Also pretty cool. But the cherry on top is my favourite new character/model ever, the Zombiegator Maelok. He's under Caliban's control, but as Wrong Eye told him, there's always a way to break a spell. I think Magnus is the only Mercenary Warcaster so far who got an epic version. But Gork damnit, I want Epic versions of all the Gatormen Warlocks, just to see where they're going!


I only really started reading the fluff with the Mk2 books, so if you could be so kind and answer me a few questions:

1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

2. Do we know anything about Vinter after he he left the Skorne? Do you think we'll see him again sometime soon?

3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

5. How powerful are the dragons anyway? The elves of Ios destroyed Everblight's body, but couldn't destroy his essence. Could Toruk actually defeated through the military might of Khador or Cygnar?

SpectralTime wrote:Ya know, I never did hear where I could go to find more stories about Captain Kraye...

NQ 41 has one.

Anung Un Rama wrote:
1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

2. Do we know anything about Vinter after he he left the Skorne? Do you think we'll see him again sometime soon?

3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

5. How powerful are the dragons anyway? The elves of Ios destroyed Everblight's body, but couldn't destroy his essence. Could Toruk actually defeated through the military might of Khador or Cygnar?

1. that if she'd go where she wasnt supposed to, she'd get killed. unfortunately, in trying to save her, baldur set in motion a chain of events that put her in that exact place. and it turns out her "murder" was what was needed to complete the ritual. keep an eye out on venethrax and his buddies trying to get the athanc from hellspass back to cryx.

2. yup,. he turned up in the protectorate, stared down feora and a whole bunch of exemplars ("Surrender your sword". "i surrender nothing". great scene) and promised them if theyd aid him, he'd tear out Morrows worship from Cygnar and reinstate the worship of Menoth as a state religion.

3. Magnus turned his back on him and is guiding VInter's bastard son. as to the mercenaries - well, skorne like their slaves...

4. tldr version is they all turn up, have a big scrap, the legion doods send some folks into the catacombs beneath the castle of the keeps, they annoy pyromalfic enough that he bursts forth and proceeds to do a reasonable chuck norris impression on all factions present. all legion doods and beasts gang up on him though and kill him (death of a thousand cuts). afterwards, thagosh grabs the athanc and eats it. im sure all that fighting made him hungry. nommy dragon!

5. disgustingly, incredibly powerful. you can defeat dragons but it involves huge sacrifice. as the elves found out. check out the IK Monsternomicon. they have stats for three of the smaller dragons - halfaung, blightergast, and others. even being within a mile's distance from one is enough to blight any human beyond the point of death. so yeah, they're incredibly powerful. could toruk destroy all of cygnar? depends. if he goes after one long gunner at a time? sure. against all of cygnar at once? probably not. the second he'd move, the dragon alliance would kick in, and they're at a stalemate. mexican stand off.

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Prime
Escalation
Apotheosis
Primal
Superiority
Evolution
Legends
Prime 1.5 (here, I think, but it's outside of the main story so doesn't really matter)
Pirates of the Broken Coast (here, again, not sure/doesn't matter)
Metamorphosis

Retribution
Prime 2
Cygnar
Khador
Prot
Cryx
Mercs
Primal 2
not sure the order after this, sorry

Does a lot of the 'inbetween' fluff happen in the No Quarter magazines? Cause I took my time and read through all the fluffparts in the old books, and it looks like there are gaps here and there.
One event, the Fight between Legion of Everblight & Pyromalfic, do they, PP, leave this to our imagination or is it actually written somewhere? Also, when did Goreshade manage to steal Nyssor's sword? etc.

And with the constant jumping between characters, it's kinda hard to know where everyone is.

Does anyone if PP is releasing/has released any iron kingdom novels? Also, it would be interesting to read the story of either Eiryss or Sylys. Killing different people across immoren with Eiryss or discovering hints and clues to heal Scyrah/find all the Iosan gods.

no books yet that i'm aware of, though i would certainly like some.
pretty much stuck with old/new rulebooks and issues of no quarter for fluff (i've enjoyed the background info they've covered in several no quarters)

I was going to pack all my old NoQuarters in a box and put them in the basement, because I don't need the Mk1 rules anymore. Then I noticed they're still full of fluff I haven't read.

The problem with novels would likely be that they would be from the perspective of one or two factions, making the other factions antagonists, and thus probably losers (happened to BattleTech a lot).

To get a novel or even a series going that has protagonists from all factions, they'd need George R.R. Martin. But then again, if he were to write the IK novel series, by the 3rd book half the warcasters and characters of the setting would have died very brutal and sudden deaths.

Skylifter wrote:The problem with novels would likely be that they would be from the perspective of one or two factions, making the other factions antagonists, and thus probably losers (happened to BattleTech a lot).

To get a novel or even a series going that has protagonists from all factions, they'd need George R.R. Martin. But then again, if he were to write the IK novel series, by the 3rd book half the warcasters and characters of the setting would have died very brutal and sudden deaths.

lol this. However i do think R.A. Salvatore could pump out some awesome IK novels.

Did anyone figure out in which compartment the guns are housed in House Shyeel myrmidons? I always think they shoot from the middle button just below their heads, shooting like this, euh i mean "venasaur":

I'm currently reading Wrath. Is there a reason why Vinter is the most powerful swordsman ever? Does he have any special powers or something like that?

Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm currently reading Wrath. Is there a reason why Vinter is the most powerful swordsman ever? Does he have any special powers or something like that?

Partially an artifact-level magic sword (not mechanikal!), artifact-level magic armor (again, not mechanika!) and the fact that he's a horrifyingly skilled swordsman. He lead from the front during the invasion of the Scharde Isles, and single handedly beat the feth out of the entire Skorne Empire.

Oh, and Avro: It's a product of the force field. It's not actually mounted on the warjack, barring the Vyre myrmidons.

 Laughing Man wrote:


Oh, and Avro: It's a product of the force field. It's not actually mounted on the warjack, barring the Vyre myrmidons.

Mind blowned

That's something I didn't consider.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:

1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

It was one of the things Baldur foresaw when he was sort-of-dead, but she pointed out that no prophecy was infalliable. In the event, she was right, as she was badly injured fighting Xerxis, but not killed.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:
3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

With Saxon Orrik, it's mentioned that he's maintained his business relationship with the skorne despite the rather silly things his master did--business is business, and they can't really turn down experts on the brutal desert they have to move their troops across. With Magnus or Midwinter....I suppose it's easy enough to say that any game where they're fighting with the skorne is simply a historical one.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:
4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

Thagrosh mutated into his epic version after consuming the athanc, and the Legion warlocks as a whole became more powerful (enough to make things like the Thrones), but Everblight still remains disembodied.

Did I mention I like Barnabas? Because I like Barnabas. The latest NQ had fluff about him in the Gavin Kyle files. I hope he's going epic soon.

 Elemental wrote:


With Saxon Orrik, it's mentioned that he's maintained his business relationship with the skorne despite the rather silly things his master did--business is business, and they can't really turn down experts on the brutal desert they have to move their troops across. With Magnus or Midwinter....I suppose it's easy enough to say that any game where they're fighting with the skorne is simply a historical one.

May want to read the end of Wrath. Magnus explicitly states that the Skorne are still a viable possibility of employment/alliance. In fact, when Morghoul released Magnus from torture after revealing and discovering the truth about Vinter, he half-jokingly speculated that they'd be friends in the near future. I doubt Magnus is done with the Skorne.

Remember, Magnus hates Vinter now just as much(if not more so) than the Skorne.

...Here's a silly question. What's Grissel like? 'Cause in parts of the fluff about Fell Callers, they're all crazy frat-boy horndogs (even the women!) sowing their wild oats all willy-nilly and living in hedonism, etc.

But, from her backstory, Grissel just... seems like a normal troll girl who happens to be a fell caller. She had a normal husband, and seems to live a fairly normal, non-crazy life. Is that whole thing just a stupid stereotype, or do I just not have a good handle on her character? I've only ever read Primal and the Trollbloods faction book, on loan from a friend.

...Well, considering I just got a message that posting will only irritate everyone, I hope it doesn't.

No worries about the thread necromancy. Questions like this is what this thread is for.

Can't help you with your question though.

Yeah, sorry about the dead-thread thing, but I'm interested in Warmahordes, but coming from other wargames *cough* 40k *cough* it's hard to move into such a smaller universe. Having good fluff helps with that but I really just haven't found much that gets me spun up about the Iron Kingdoms. So a few quick questions and I'll be out of your hair

First: Who are all the Gods (real ones, fakes are cool too, but I'm really just interested in the pantheon that actually affects the game so to speak) and what do they represent and where do they gain their power?

Second: I figured out that Cygnar is kind of the cobbled together empire that tries to be mostly good, Khador is the conquering spartan nation that isn't necessarily bad, Cryx is THE PENULTIMATE EVIL, that's really just bent on eradicating opposition and consuming them, Retribution is taking vengeance for their dying God, Protectorate is kind of the defiant zealot who won't give up their faith even though they're under someone else's thumb. Trollbloods fight cause fightins gud. Circle Orboros are the nature hippies who want balance at the cost of everyone elses' lives. Skorne are the blood-crazies I guess? They have violence-carnivals and carve others and themselves up for fun? Cause it feels good? And Legion is a bunch of zombies following the will of their cunning master-dragon. Minions and Mercs are fillers if I'm not mistaken, that don't really fight for a cause. The question in all of this is (besides the obvious did I get it right) who are the Convergence? Where did they come from? What are they like?

Third: Fluff is really more important to me than the actual game, after all if you don't enjoy crushing your enemies as them, what's the point? But as it stands in other wargames, one of the best ways to choose an army is by looks. If you don't enjoy looking at them, no reason to spend money on them. Is that a pretty good catch-all for Warmahordes as well?

 bocatt wrote:
First: Who are all the Gods (real ones, fakes are cool too, but I'm really just interested in the pantheon that actually affects the game so to speak) and what do they represent and where do they gain their power?

All gods are considered real. The two big deities are Menoth and Morrow, the first being Lawful Neutral or Evil and the second being Lawful Good. There's also Thamar, the 'satan' equivalent, which happens to be Morrow's twin sister. Basically, Menoth is the creator god of humanity, while Morrow and Thamar are humans who became gods through exaltation. Menites and Morrowans are generally at odds, since Menoth considers that all humanity is bound to his worship by contract, but Morrow is more popular because he is much less demanding than Menoth.

Other than that, there's Dhunia, a 'Gaia' equivalent the non-humans races like trollkin and boggers worship. There's the Devourer, a predator god that is banished in the afterlife and which with the other gods must constantly fight.

The human gods are basically the beings that will shelter you in the afterlife and protect you from the Devourer's minions. The more they have followers, the more they have an army to protect their territory and to attack the Devourer. This only applies to the Human gods, the Elvish ones are more complex (and mostly dead anyway).

It's really not a good idea to be an atheist in the Iron Kingdom.

Oh and there's Toruk, the Cryxian Dragonfather, who enforces his worship. While not considered a god by most in the IK, he does gift his priests with divine magic.

Second: I figured out that Cygnar is kind of the cobbled together empire that tries to be mostly good, Khador is the conquering spartan nation that isn't necessarily bad, Cryx is THE PENULTIMATE EVIL, that's really just bent on eradicating opposition and consuming them, Retribution is taking vengeance for their dying God, Protectorate is kind of the defiant zealot who won't give up their faith even though they're under someone else's thumb. Trollbloods fight cause fightins gud. Circle Orboros are the nature hippies who want balance at the cost of everyone elses' lives. Skorne are the blood-crazies I guess? They have violence-carnivals and carve others and themselves up for fun? Cause it feels good? And Legion is a bunch of zombies following the will of their cunning master-dragon. Minions and Mercs are fillers if I'm not mistaken, that don't really fight for a cause. The question in all of this is (besides the obvious did I get it right) who are the Convergence? Where did they come from? What are they like?

Mostly right, except Trollbloods fight for their homeland and for land that was promised to them by Cygnar's king, and also because some of them had the brilliant idea to attack a Cygnaran hospital train wagon. And Skorne fight to conquer, they have an enormous empire stuck in the worst environment possible. The reason why they cut themselves is because they don't have gods, so they do not have the gift of magic. They rely instead on blood and pain magic of some sort. Convergence is a new religion that was until now really on the fringe, worshippers of Cyriss, goddess of science and mathematics.

Third: Fluff is really more important to me than the actual game, after all if you don't enjoy crushing your enemies as them, what's the point? But as it stands in other wargames, one of the best ways to choose an army is by looks. If you don't enjoy looking at them, no reason to spend money on them. Is that a pretty good catch-all for Warmahordes as well?

Some things about the fluff are annoying. They have yet to kill a named character and not find a way to ressurect it. The quality of the writing in the yearly books isn't over the top, but it's usually not terrible either. In a way, I always thought the best way to describe Warmahorde's fluff writing was to say that it was Warhammer Fantasy mixed with Marvel. If that sounds like something you would enjoy, well...

1) The human gods are primarily Menoth, Morrow, Thamar, Cyriss, and the Devourer Wurm. Menoth is the Creator, who created humankind. He's the god of Law, of the Wall, and cities, and constantly hunts the Devourer Wurm throughout Urcaen. He emphasizes strict obedience to law, and harsh punishment for breaking it, no matter the reason. When his worshippers die, they go to the City of Man in Urcaen, where their souls help fortify it and man its armies. He's primarily worshipped in the Protectorate of Menoth (go figure) and Khador, where his worship is referred to as the Old Faith.

Morrow and Thamar are both formerly human, twins who discovered a way to become divine. Morrow is probably the most widely worshipped god in the Iron Kingdoms, and is pretty much the god of good, and emphasizes personal choice and good deeds towards ones fellow man. He's also something of a war god (having been a soldier and philosopher in life) and wrote a code of conduct for soldiers in order to preserve honor and protect the helpless in war. The leaders of all the nations barring Cryx (duh) and the Protectorate (also duh) are Morrowan, and the Church of Morrow is often the state religion. He has a group of faithful who have risen to semi-divine status known as the Ascendants, who epitomize certain aspects of his creed.

Thamar, the Dark Twin, is the goddess of magic and knowledge. She is solely responsible for the Gift, the source from which all non-divine magic springs. She emphasizes knowledge and power through transgression, and Thamarites are fairly amoral people, taking part in human sacrifice and Infernalism, with her advocates also typically being fairly adept necromancers. On the other hand, she's also something of a champion of the underdog, also being the goddess of freedom and self expression, with some champions actually widely viewed as heroes. She does not, however, endorse selfishness for its own sake, but rather the triumph of individuality over the many, self accomplishment rather than selfishness. Her own semi-divine followers are known as the Scions.

The Cult of Cyriss is somewhat more esoteric. Cyrissis is the Maiden of Gears, a fairly mysterious goddess who was only recently discovered. She seems to have an actual physical presence on Caen, in the form of the rogue planet that bears her name. Cyrissists are masters of mechanika, and their higher ranked priests even possess the ability to transfer their souls into clockwork bodies.

Finally, the Devourer Wurm, Orboros: The Beast of All Shapes is not a particular kind god, and likely predates even Menoth. Most worship of it revolves around placating it, and keeping its attention away from Caen and towards its hunting grounds in the Wilds of Urcaen, where it eats unclaimed souls. If it were ever to turn its attention towards Urcaen, the world would be devoured. It's mostly worshipped by barbarians and the Blackclad Druids of the Circle Orboros.

2) The Kingdom of Cygnar isn't precisely cobbled together: It's one of the oldest powers in the Iron Kingdoms (essentially tied with the Khadoran Empire in that respect), both having coalesced during the Orgoth Rebellions. Given its central position, temperate climate, and fertile lands, it's rather rich and has access to large amounts of resources and technology, probably being the most advanced of all the human nations. They suffered rather horribly under their last few kings, with Vinter Raelthorn ruling as an oppressive tyrant until he was overthrown by his brother, Leto, in what was known as the Lion's Coup. This cemented the Morrowan Church as the state religion thanks to their role in the conflict. Leto rules with a much softer hand, but recent conflicts are quickly eroding his support, and the emergence of Vinter's bastard son has the potential to end his reign.

The Khadoran Empire, ruled by Empress Ayn Vanar, is the largest of the Iron Kingdoms, although most of it is frozen or untamed wilderness. It possesses great amounts of natural resources, but fairly poor farmland and poor amounts of the trace materials needed to create advanced mechanika such as cortexes. The past few monarchs have rapidly turned Khador into a major industrial power, and the merchant aristocracy (the Kayazy) have profited extremely from these reforms. The common people, on the other hand, are fairly brutally oppressed, with the secret police of the Greylord Covenant keeping a close eye on dissenters. Of course, the citizenry is by nature highly patriotic, and the fact that the Old Faith is only a minority by the barest of margins means that obedience to one's superiors is a divine mandate for many.

Cryx actually isn't as OMGEVIL as one might think. Sure, the Dragon Father views the living as raw materials (and eventually fuel in the form of necrotite) for his armies, but He doesn't really care much about the existence of humanity. Indeed, the motivation behind EVERYTHING that the Nightmare Empire does revolves around one single goal: The reabsorbtion of all other dragons' athancs by Toruk. Once He's eaten all of them, he doesn't really have a reason to maintain his empire. He probably WILL, and will continue to conquer things, but it loses a lot of its urgency. After all, everyone joins the Nightmare Empire in the end.

The Protectorate isn't really under anyone's thumb, and hasn't been for a while now: They'd won the right to self rule from Cygnar a while back, and is ruled entirely by the Scrutators, under the Hierarch (currently Severius, until recently Voyle, who got himself killed). Their goal is the conversion or death of every living soul on Caen, this crusade having been sparked by the coming of the Harbinger of Menoth, whose every word is literally Menoth's divine will on Caen.

The Retribution is a minority fringe cult in Ios, although it's been gaining a lot of political traction lately. Their goal is the death of all human magic users, as the Retribution believes that the Gift is what's killing their gods (mostly Scyrah, because barring Nyssor she's the only one left).

The Trollbloods are pretty much the buttmonkeys of the Iron Kingdoms, having been collectively shat upon by human empire after human empire. They're currently in the process of being shafted by Cygnar, who the Kriels are fighting an insurgency against in order to preserve their ancestral lands.

The Skorne are one of the more interesting Empires, with the vast bulk of their lands being across the Bloodstone Marches, the Storm Lands (formerly Iosan homeland until it went boom), and the Great Abyss (the former Iosan capital). A martial people, they were conquered one at a time by Vinter Raelthorne, deposed king of Cygnar (who they view as the self-reincarnation of their never-Exalted first philosopher king), who then proceeded to use them as his own personal army. The Skorne have recently decided that he's something of a douche after discovering that he's treating them as expendable meatshields in his conquest of his homeland.

The Skorne are atheists, which in the world of Caen means that their souls do not enter the afterlife and are instead plunged into the Void, a rather terrible place of nonexistence and torture (possibly where Infernals dwell and most certainly where the monstrous former souls that Cryxian Bane Thralls are animated by come from). In order to avoid this, the Skorne Extoller Caste entomb the souls of the greatest warriors in sacral stones, which preserve them on Caen for all eternity, and give them the chance to walk again in the form of Ancestral Guardians. This process, known as Exaltation, is the primary driving force of Skorne society.

The Skorne use pain as a tool, using it on their beasts in order to train them and bend them to their will, and on themselves as a teaching method: Pain is a means, not the end goal. They believe suffering makes one stronger, and hones both the mind and body. A few cults, such as the Nihilators, take this to extremes, torturing themselves in order to gain enlightenment. Most, however, merely settle for the scars of battle.

Skorne society is broken into Houses, each lead by a Dominar, which until the coming of Vinter warred amongst each other constantly, both for resources and to prove themselves worthy of Exaltation. Now, the Houses are united under Archdomina Makeda, who is struggling to recover from Vinter's betrayal and turn the Skorne's long westward march into a net gain for the Empire.

Can someone please list all the dragons currently alive and those that have died excluding Everblight and Toruk and their dominant characteristics, I was sort of blindsided by the fact that Cryx just found an athanac without having to redo the whole Pyromalfic scene again.

Just have a quick question. Do they re-print No Quarter?
For example, if I wanted issue 1. Will that be available down the line?

Nope. There's a few available electronically, however.

 Nakiro wrote:
Just have a quick question. Do they re-print No Quarter?
For example, if I wanted issue 1. Will that be available down the line?

They have most of the NQ back issues availiable in their store for $1 each, except those that have completely sold out. Those that are completely gone have mostly been rereleased digitally, though sadly at full price: http://www.wargamevault.com/index.php?cPath=347&affiliate_id=197650

You can get issue 1 in that link. I don't know if there are any which aren't available at either place, but you can start off your journey there.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Nakiro wrote:
Just have a quick question. Do they re-print No Quarter?
For example, if I wanted issue 1. Will that be available down the line?

They have most of the NQ back issues availiable in their store for $1 each, except those that have completely sold out. Those that are completely gone have mostly been rereleased digitally, though sadly at full price: http://www.wargamevault.com/index.php?cPath=347&affiliate_id=197650

You can get issue 1 in that link. I don't know if there are any which aren't available at either place, but you can start off your journey there.

I was going to get those until the shipping price was $40.

This is something I wondered, I was reading zercovas BG, she has the god nyssor in her mits. How does one capture a god?

Nyssor sealed himself in a block of ice to prevent his inevitable death from whatever it is that's killing the Iosan gods. The Nyss refuges brought him with them when they fled from Everblight, and Goreshade tried to unfreeze and kill him. He failed (although he got a shiny sword and a curse in the process), alerting the local Winterguard garrison, and they handed over the frozen godsicle to the Prikaz Chancellery. Zerkova was studying him (lacking the magic torch to unfreeze and dissect him), he got shipped across country, and the Retribution recaptured him after a nice three way fight between them, Goreshade, and the Khadorans.

Sure, they recaptured him.


Because Goreshade wanted them to have him.

So th gods physically live on immoran?

Nope, only the elven gods. The Elven pantheon was brought through from the Veld a while back. This caused a giant explosion that obliterated the Elvish nation, created the Abyss, as well as the giant desert separating the Skorne Empire from Western Immoren. The surviving Elvish hicks formed the nation of Ios. Later on, after nearly all the other Elvish gods died, Nyssor and the remaining gods (besides Scyrah) left Ios to find a cure for their condition. Nyssor was the only one who ever returned, and his followers formed the Nyss shards.

So scyrah is the only god left?

Scyrah and Nyssor, yes. He's frozen, but very much alive and now held safely by the Iosans. They might even thaw him out at some point.

Ok, How intelligent are warjacks?
They seem capable of acting without a warcaster. Drago for example. Beast 09 disobeyed orders so they seem intelligent.
What exactly is their intelligence level? Like the conquest saluted the empress

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, How intelligent are warjacks?
They seem capable of acting without a warcaster. Drago for example. Beast 09 disobeyed orders so they seem intelligent.
What exactly is their intelligence level? Like the conquest saluted the empress

it depends is the honest answer. drago is a homicidal maniac because 200 years of tzepiscis have ordered it to charge into melee and chop things up. Beast 09 could have been held in a bodyguard role long enough that that imprinted itself on its cortex. and the conquest would have been commanded by a warcaster

a lot has to do with the grade of cortex being used. the most basic cortex grades allow for the most basic functioning (typically one command at a time you could tell the warjack to move those crates here to that space over there) and it would do it, but it would hover about and loiter afterwards, doing nothing whilst it waits for commands. higher cortex grades allow for more "intelligence" (take those crates in the hold up the ship, take them up the lift, across the street, and stack them on the ground floor of the shed, with the biggest crates on the left) and allow for more complex tasks. that said, in the absense of commands it will still sit there and do nothing, quietly happy to watch the world go by. Military jacks are the best, and most intelligent of the jacks, but again, they require input to do anything. generally, id put the intelligence of military grade jacks as being equivelant to a smart dog (ol rowdy being a labrador).

warcasters are different. because they interact through the cortex, some of their personality gets ingrained on the warjacks they use. the ones used by the butcher would be more aggressive, and more prone to charge into combat unheeded (and a jack that is unpredictable like this is often seen as a liability). How it gets used like this will affect a warjack, giving it a personality of sorts, but its not "real", if that makes sense. warjacks dont think - they follow arcane programming. Nor is it intelligence, more of a quirk of the process of controlling it.

But what about the avatar of menoth. He seems highly intelligent.

The Avatar is directly controlled by a god, and has no cortex.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, How intelligent are warjacks?
They seem capable of acting without a warcaster. Drago for example. Beast 09 disobeyed orders so they seem intelligent.
What exactly is their intelligence level? Like the conquest saluted the empress

I've usually seen their intelligence level compared to that of a dog. Anywhere between a particularly smart dog, or a particularity stupid dog depending on the grade of the cortex. As such teaching a Warjack to salute is probably not a bigger deal than teaching a dog to "Shake". Similarly it can go through simple routines and perform certain tasks either on command, or in reaction to specific circumstances.

However a warjack will probably never do complex problem solving, or pick up real langauge skills for example.

Drago is also a special case. No matter what they do, his personality returns the same(most personalities can be undone through a Cortex wipe/reset) and he somehow has developed the ability to start his own heartfire. He's also shown greater emotion than any other known warjack, being very tied to his appearance and body(he's killed workers for replacing his faceplate and they have to construct new parts just for him to keep his body, as he'd reject a new one).

If the Cortex is a simple AI, Drago has somehow become the ghost in the machine(perhaps literally, as some posit that Drago is possessed by the spirit of the original owning family member rather than a special cortex).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chongara wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, How intelligent are warjacks?
They seem capable of acting without a warcaster. Drago for example. Beast 09 disobeyed orders so they seem intelligent.
What exactly is their intelligence level? Like the conquest saluted the empress

I've usually seen their intelligence level compared to that of a dog. Anywhere between a particularly smart dog, or a particularity stupid dog depending on the grade of the cortex. As such teaching a Warjack to salute is probably not a bigger deal than teaching a dog to "Shake". Similarly it can go through simple routines and perform certain tasks either on command, or in reaction to specific circumstances.

However a warjack will probably never do complex problem solving, or pick up real langauge skills for example.

The comparison is apt. Some warjacks act like impatient children in some stories, but being that dogs(on average) are thought to share the same intelligence level as the average 3 year old, that would fit right in to the Warjacks at dog level.

So if warjacks are dogs, does that make beserkers rottweilers?

 Platuan4th wrote:
Drago is also a special case. No matter what they do, his personality returns the same(most personalities can be undone through a Cortex wipe/reset) and he somehow has developed the ability to start his own heartfire. He's also shown greater emotion than any other known warjack, being very tied to his appearance and body(he's killed workers for replacing his faceplate and they have to construct new parts just for him to keep his body, as he'd reject a new one).

If the Cortex is a simple AI, Drago has somehow become the ghost in the machine(perhaps literally, as some posit that Drago is possessed by the spirit of the original owning family member rather than a special cortex).

Mostly correct, but one quick correction: Berserkers use an older, experimental cortex model that can't be wiped, so Drago has over two hundred years of accumulated bonding to the Tzepesci family (and his namesake in particular, who he inherited most of his bloodlust from), a long memory of killing things, and the usual cortex degredation of the Berserkers causing it to foam at the mouth.

Doug Seacat, writer of a lot of the IK fluff, stated that a casio is better at doing calculations and math than a jack, but a jack is better and slaughter people.

Not a direct quote, but the general idea.

Ok, Who exactly is the harbinger of menoth? Like what is her story?

Have you considered reading her entry on the website?

In the Cygnar army book, it mentions Kara Sloan is involved with a subordinate officer. Is this expanded on anywhere else? I kind of liked it, it seemed a very fallible and human thing.

ComTrav wrote:
In the Cygnar army book, it mentions Kara Sloan is involved with a subordinate officer. Is this expanded on anywhere else? I kind of liked it, it seemed a very fallible and human thing.

In one of the books it cuts between her assaulting a position and him going all stabby stabby on the Khadoran mortar crews involved in the same fight. Maybe the Cygnar Faction book?

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, Who exactly is the harbinger of menoth? Like what is her story?

She just kind of turned up at 14, blindfolded and floating, saying she was the Harbinger of Menoth, and that she was sent visions by him (she needed the blindfold to use menoths . She was brought to the then Heirach Voyle, who realised she wasn't faffing about, and bent a knee to her and asked her to be his spiritual adviser. Later on she took herself to battle (in Apothesis), where she died saving the souls of many, but was revived by the Testament of Menoth. She's basically seen as a living symbol of Menoth, is given visions and guidance by him, and is a focus point for the Menite faith in the protectorate.

Was their a story event for Grissel to "go epic" and start blasting people with her voice rather then handing out buffs with it?

(It's pretty clear why she ended up faction leader, between Madrak going insane and Doomshaper not really being a 'people person', except Dire Trolls).