Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was always under the impression Morrow personally oversaw the transition from Vinter to Leto, but Doug Seacat made it clear in the PP forums that he didn't personally intervene. The head priest of the Morrowan faith acted of his own accord in using his magic might to resolve the confrontation.

It was actually kind of depressing to read because it pointed out more clearly that the Primarch acted partly because of political concerns. Seems kind of shabby but it is what it is I guess. I suppose you could say that if Morrow disagreed he'd not lend the spell, but, I don't think he really watches over that kind of thing that closely.


It is worth mentioning in Leto's defense however that he didn't expressly ASK for the aid. I mean obviously he had his troops there to ensure things went peacefully, but he didn't really tell the Primarch to step in. That's just something the priest did - which seemed kind of ridiculous. Obviously though he arrested his brother and wasn't going to just flop on the floor like "oh no man it's ok, you got me."

I really wish Leto was written with less naivety though. I think that's what makes people think he's all soft and lame. He's an accomplished general and an obvious combatant, but the fluff makes him seem kind of dumb. Like the fact that even his closest allies are lying to him and he doesn't know it. ( The warmaster or whatever is sending Caine to try and kill Julius behind Leto's back )

Props to Leto for doing the right thing though. I'm sure if he knew Julius was in danger from his own loyalist troops he'd be like "uh, hell no."

It's the curse of the Cygnaran throne. Whosoever sits in it suddenly becomes much more susceptible to poor decision making habits and baffling decisions that prolong the conflict of the setting and allow drama to unfold!

This is the fate that awaits Vinter as well!

It was probably secretly cursed by Cryx hundreds of years ago, and no one has noticed yet.

Watch someone will knock it over and there will be a bunch of infernal runes on the bottom or something. XP

Ya know, I never did hear where I could go to find more stories about Captain Kraye...

Can someone please list all books for hordes (MK1 and MK2) in chronological order they where first printet?

Thanks

Prime
Escalation
Apotheosis
Primal
Superiority
Evolution
Legends
Prime 1.5 (here, I think, but it's outside of the main story so doesn't really matter)
Pirates of the Broken Coast (here, again, not sure/doesn't matter)
Metamorphosis

Retribution
Prime 2
Cygnar
Khador
Prot
Cryx
Mercs
Primal 2
not sure the order after this, sorry

Skorne
Trolls
Legion
Circle
Minions
Wrath
Domination
Colossal (June 2012)

It's been quiet in this thread for a while, but I would've opened my own if it wasn't for this one. I just love the Warmahordes fluff. I'm currently reading up on the Hordes stuff in the Mk2 books and I like it a lot. Especially the Gatormen, who have like the coolest faction fluff EVAR.

So, Bloody Barnabas is old, like, older than any Gatorman before him. And they don't die of old age, but usually from being viciously murdered by something. And now he sees only one solution: become a GOD! How friggin' cool is that? And his second in command, Caliban, he's just hanging around, because however Barnabas' plan to lead the Gatormen into the biggest battle ever so he can ascend will end, he'll be the one left in charge. Also pretty cool. But the cherry on top is my favourite new character/model ever, the Zombiegator Maelok. He's under Caliban's control, but as Wrong Eye told him, there's always a way to break a spell. I think Magnus is the only Mercenary Warcaster so far who got an epic version. But Gork damnit, I want Epic versions of all the Gatormen Warlocks, just to see where they're going!


I only really started reading the fluff with the Mk2 books, so if you could be so kind and answer me a few questions:

1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

2. Do we know anything about Vinter after he he left the Skorne? Do you think we'll see him again sometime soon?

3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

5. How powerful are the dragons anyway? The elves of Ios destroyed Everblight's body, but couldn't destroy his essence. Could Toruk actually defeated through the military might of Khador or Cygnar?

SpectralTime wrote:Ya know, I never did hear where I could go to find more stories about Captain Kraye...

NQ 41 has one.

Anung Un Rama wrote:
1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

2. Do we know anything about Vinter after he he left the Skorne? Do you think we'll see him again sometime soon?

3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

5. How powerful are the dragons anyway? The elves of Ios destroyed Everblight's body, but couldn't destroy his essence. Could Toruk actually defeated through the military might of Khador or Cygnar?

1. that if she'd go where she wasnt supposed to, she'd get killed. unfortunately, in trying to save her, baldur set in motion a chain of events that put her in that exact place. and it turns out her "murder" was what was needed to complete the ritual. keep an eye out on venethrax and his buddies trying to get the athanc from hellspass back to cryx.

2. yup,. he turned up in the protectorate, stared down feora and a whole bunch of exemplars ("Surrender your sword". "i surrender nothing". great scene) and promised them if theyd aid him, he'd tear out Morrows worship from Cygnar and reinstate the worship of Menoth as a state religion.

3. Magnus turned his back on him and is guiding VInter's bastard son. as to the mercenaries - well, skorne like their slaves...

4. tldr version is they all turn up, have a big scrap, the legion doods send some folks into the catacombs beneath the castle of the keeps, they annoy pyromalfic enough that he bursts forth and proceeds to do a reasonable chuck norris impression on all factions present. all legion doods and beasts gang up on him though and kill him (death of a thousand cuts). afterwards, thagosh grabs the athanc and eats it. im sure all that fighting made him hungry. nommy dragon!

5. disgustingly, incredibly powerful. you can defeat dragons but it involves huge sacrifice. as the elves found out. check out the IK Monsternomicon. they have stats for three of the smaller dragons - halfaung, blightergast, and others. even being within a mile's distance from one is enough to blight any human beyond the point of death. so yeah, they're incredibly powerful. could toruk destroy all of cygnar? depends. if he goes after one long gunner at a time? sure. against all of cygnar at once? probably not. the second he'd move, the dragon alliance would kick in, and they're at a stalemate. mexican stand off.

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Prime
Escalation
Apotheosis
Primal
Superiority
Evolution
Legends
Prime 1.5 (here, I think, but it's outside of the main story so doesn't really matter)
Pirates of the Broken Coast (here, again, not sure/doesn't matter)
Metamorphosis

Retribution
Prime 2
Cygnar
Khador
Prot
Cryx
Mercs
Primal 2
not sure the order after this, sorry

Does a lot of the 'inbetween' fluff happen in the No Quarter magazines? Cause I took my time and read through all the fluffparts in the old books, and it looks like there are gaps here and there.
One event, the Fight between Legion of Everblight & Pyromalfic, do they, PP, leave this to our imagination or is it actually written somewhere? Also, when did Goreshade manage to steal Nyssor's sword? etc.

And with the constant jumping between characters, it's kinda hard to know where everyone is.

Does anyone if PP is releasing/has released any iron kingdom novels? Also, it would be interesting to read the story of either Eiryss or Sylys. Killing different people across immoren with Eiryss or discovering hints and clues to heal Scyrah/find all the Iosan gods.

no books yet that i'm aware of, though i would certainly like some.
pretty much stuck with old/new rulebooks and issues of no quarter for fluff (i've enjoyed the background info they've covered in several no quarters)

I was going to pack all my old NoQuarters in a box and put them in the basement, because I don't need the Mk1 rules anymore. Then I noticed they're still full of fluff I haven't read.

The problem with novels would likely be that they would be from the perspective of one or two factions, making the other factions antagonists, and thus probably losers (happened to BattleTech a lot).

To get a novel or even a series going that has protagonists from all factions, they'd need George R.R. Martin. But then again, if he were to write the IK novel series, by the 3rd book half the warcasters and characters of the setting would have died very brutal and sudden deaths.

Skylifter wrote:The problem with novels would likely be that they would be from the perspective of one or two factions, making the other factions antagonists, and thus probably losers (happened to BattleTech a lot).

To get a novel or even a series going that has protagonists from all factions, they'd need George R.R. Martin. But then again, if he were to write the IK novel series, by the 3rd book half the warcasters and characters of the setting would have died very brutal and sudden deaths.

lol this. However i do think R.A. Salvatore could pump out some awesome IK novels.

Did anyone figure out in which compartment the guns are housed in House Shyeel myrmidons? I always think they shoot from the middle button just below their heads, shooting like this, euh i mean "venasaur":

I'm currently reading Wrath. Is there a reason why Vinter is the most powerful swordsman ever? Does he have any special powers or something like that?

Anung Un Rama wrote:I'm currently reading Wrath. Is there a reason why Vinter is the most powerful swordsman ever? Does he have any special powers or something like that?

Partially an artifact-level magic sword (not mechanikal!), artifact-level magic armor (again, not mechanika!) and the fact that he's a horrifyingly skilled swordsman. He lead from the front during the invasion of the Scharde Isles, and single handedly beat the feth out of the entire Skorne Empire.

Oh, and Avro: It's a product of the force field. It's not actually mounted on the warjack, barring the Vyre myrmidons.

 Laughing Man wrote:


Oh, and Avro: It's a product of the force field. It's not actually mounted on the warjack, barring the Vyre myrmidons.

Mind blowned

That's something I didn't consider.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:

1. What was that Oberos prophecy about Kaya getting killed?

It was one of the things Baldur foresaw when he was sort-of-dead, but she pointed out that no prophecy was infalliable. In the event, she was right, as she was badly injured fighting Xerxis, but not killed.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:
3. Now that Vinter now longer is with the Skorne, what does that mean for all the mercenaries who worked for them? PP probably won't take those rules away, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make much sense for Magnus, the Inquistor and that hunter guy to hang around with them anymore.

With Saxon Orrik, it's mentioned that he's maintained his business relationship with the skorne despite the rather silly things his master did--business is business, and they can't really turn down experts on the brutal desert they have to move their troops across. With Magnus or Midwinter....I suppose it's easy enough to say that any game where they're fighting with the skorne is simply a historical one.

 Anung Un Rama wrote:
4. Can someone give me a short version of that big battle with the dragon that happened in the last Hordes book? Before mk2 I mean. Thargrosh consumed that dragons heart, right? Dos this mena Everblight still hasn't regained a corporal form?

Thagrosh mutated into his epic version after consuming the athanc, and the Legion warlocks as a whole became more powerful (enough to make things like the Thrones), but Everblight still remains disembodied.

Did I mention I like Barnabas? Because I like Barnabas. The latest NQ had fluff about him in the Gavin Kyle files. I hope he's going epic soon.

 Elemental wrote:


With Saxon Orrik, it's mentioned that he's maintained his business relationship with the skorne despite the rather silly things his master did--business is business, and they can't really turn down experts on the brutal desert they have to move their troops across. With Magnus or Midwinter....I suppose it's easy enough to say that any game where they're fighting with the skorne is simply a historical one.

May want to read the end of Wrath. Magnus explicitly states that the Skorne are still a viable possibility of employment/alliance. In fact, when Morghoul released Magnus from torture after revealing and discovering the truth about Vinter, he half-jokingly speculated that they'd be friends in the near future. I doubt Magnus is done with the Skorne.

Remember, Magnus hates Vinter now just as much(if not more so) than the Skorne.

...Here's a silly question. What's Grissel like? 'Cause in parts of the fluff about Fell Callers, they're all crazy frat-boy horndogs (even the women!) sowing their wild oats all willy-nilly and living in hedonism, etc.

But, from her backstory, Grissel just... seems like a normal troll girl who happens to be a fell caller. She had a normal husband, and seems to live a fairly normal, non-crazy life. Is that whole thing just a stupid stereotype, or do I just not have a good handle on her character? I've only ever read Primal and the Trollbloods faction book, on loan from a friend.

...Well, considering I just got a message that posting will only irritate everyone, I hope it doesn't.

No worries about the thread necromancy. Questions like this is what this thread is for.

Can't help you with your question though.

Yeah, sorry about the dead-thread thing, but I'm interested in Warmahordes, but coming from other wargames *cough* 40k *cough* it's hard to move into such a smaller universe. Having good fluff helps with that but I really just haven't found much that gets me spun up about the Iron Kingdoms. So a few quick questions and I'll be out of your hair

First: Who are all the Gods (real ones, fakes are cool too, but I'm really just interested in the pantheon that actually affects the game so to speak) and what do they represent and where do they gain their power?

Second: I figured out that Cygnar is kind of the cobbled together empire that tries to be mostly good, Khador is the conquering spartan nation that isn't necessarily bad, Cryx is THE PENULTIMATE EVIL, that's really just bent on eradicating opposition and consuming them, Retribution is taking vengeance for their dying God, Protectorate is kind of the defiant zealot who won't give up their faith even though they're under someone else's thumb. Trollbloods fight cause fightins gud. Circle Orboros are the nature hippies who want balance at the cost of everyone elses' lives. Skorne are the blood-crazies I guess? They have violence-carnivals and carve others and themselves up for fun? Cause it feels good? And Legion is a bunch of zombies following the will of their cunning master-dragon. Minions and Mercs are fillers if I'm not mistaken, that don't really fight for a cause. The question in all of this is (besides the obvious did I get it right) who are the Convergence? Where did they come from? What are they like?

Third: Fluff is really more important to me than the actual game, after all if you don't enjoy crushing your enemies as them, what's the point? But as it stands in other wargames, one of the best ways to choose an army is by looks. If you don't enjoy looking at them, no reason to spend money on them. Is that a pretty good catch-all for Warmahordes as well?

 bocatt wrote:
First: Who are all the Gods (real ones, fakes are cool too, but I'm really just interested in the pantheon that actually affects the game so to speak) and what do they represent and where do they gain their power?

All gods are considered real. The two big deities are Menoth and Morrow, the first being Lawful Neutral or Evil and the second being Lawful Good. There's also Thamar, the 'satan' equivalent, which happens to be Morrow's twin sister. Basically, Menoth is the creator god of humanity, while Morrow and Thamar are humans who became gods through exaltation. Menites and Morrowans are generally at odds, since Menoth considers that all humanity is bound to his worship by contract, but Morrow is more popular because he is much less demanding than Menoth.

Other than that, there's Dhunia, a 'Gaia' equivalent the non-humans races like trollkin and boggers worship. There's the Devourer, a predator god that is banished in the afterlife and which with the other gods must constantly fight.

The human gods are basically the beings that will shelter you in the afterlife and protect you from the Devourer's minions. The more they have followers, the more they have an army to protect their territory and to attack the Devourer. This only applies to the Human gods, the Elvish ones are more complex (and mostly dead anyway).

It's really not a good idea to be an atheist in the Iron Kingdom.

Oh and there's Toruk, the Cryxian Dragonfather, who enforces his worship. While not considered a god by most in the IK, he does gift his priests with divine magic.

Second: I figured out that Cygnar is kind of the cobbled together empire that tries to be mostly good, Khador is the conquering spartan nation that isn't necessarily bad, Cryx is THE PENULTIMATE EVIL, that's really just bent on eradicating opposition and consuming them, Retribution is taking vengeance for their dying God, Protectorate is kind of the defiant zealot who won't give up their faith even though they're under someone else's thumb. Trollbloods fight cause fightins gud. Circle Orboros are the nature hippies who want balance at the cost of everyone elses' lives. Skorne are the blood-crazies I guess? They have violence-carnivals and carve others and themselves up for fun? Cause it feels good? And Legion is a bunch of zombies following the will of their cunning master-dragon. Minions and Mercs are fillers if I'm not mistaken, that don't really fight for a cause. The question in all of this is (besides the obvious did I get it right) who are the Convergence? Where did they come from? What are they like?

Mostly right, except Trollbloods fight for their homeland and for land that was promised to them by Cygnar's king, and also because some of them had the brilliant idea to attack a Cygnaran hospital train wagon. And Skorne fight to conquer, they have an enormous empire stuck in the worst environment possible. The reason why they cut themselves is because they don't have gods, so they do not have the gift of magic. They rely instead on blood and pain magic of some sort. Convergence is a new religion that was until now really on the fringe, worshippers of Cyriss, goddess of science and mathematics.

Third: Fluff is really more important to me than the actual game, after all if you don't enjoy crushing your enemies as them, what's the point? But as it stands in other wargames, one of the best ways to choose an army is by looks. If you don't enjoy looking at them, no reason to spend money on them. Is that a pretty good catch-all for Warmahordes as well?

Some things about the fluff are annoying. They have yet to kill a named character and not find a way to ressurect it. The quality of the writing in the yearly books isn't over the top, but it's usually not terrible either. In a way, I always thought the best way to describe Warmahorde's fluff writing was to say that it was Warhammer Fantasy mixed with Marvel. If that sounds like something you would enjoy, well...

1) The human gods are primarily Menoth, Morrow, Thamar, Cyriss, and the Devourer Wurm. Menoth is the Creator, who created humankind. He's the god of Law, of the Wall, and cities, and constantly hunts the Devourer Wurm throughout Urcaen. He emphasizes strict obedience to law, and harsh punishment for breaking it, no matter the reason. When his worshippers die, they go to the City of Man in Urcaen, where their souls help fortify it and man its armies. He's primarily worshipped in the Protectorate of Menoth (go figure) and Khador, where his worship is referred to as the Old Faith.

Morrow and Thamar are both formerly human, twins who discovered a way to become divine. Morrow is probably the most widely worshipped god in the Iron Kingdoms, and is pretty much the god of good, and emphasizes personal choice and good deeds towards ones fellow man. He's also something of a war god (having been a soldier and philosopher in life) and wrote a code of conduct for soldiers in order to preserve honor and protect the helpless in war. The leaders of all the nations barring Cryx (duh) and the Protectorate (also duh) are Morrowan, and the Church of Morrow is often the state religion. He has a group of faithful who have risen to semi-divine status known as the Ascendants, who epitomize certain aspects of his creed.

Thamar, the Dark Twin, is the goddess of magic and knowledge. She is solely responsible for the Gift, the source from which all non-divine magic springs. She emphasizes knowledge and power through transgression, and Thamarites are fairly amoral people, taking part in human sacrifice and Infernalism, with her advocates also typically being fairly adept necromancers. On the other hand, she's also something of a champion of the underdog, also being the goddess of freedom and self expression, with some champions actually widely viewed as heroes. She does not, however, endorse selfishness for its own sake, but rather the triumph of individuality over the many, self accomplishment rather than selfishness. Her own semi-divine followers are known as the Scions.

The Cult of Cyriss is somewhat more esoteric. Cyrissis is the Maiden of Gears, a fairly mysterious goddess who was only recently discovered. She seems to have an actual physical presence on Caen, in the form of the rogue planet that bears her name. Cyrissists are masters of mechanika, and their higher ranked priests even possess the ability to transfer their souls into clockwork bodies.

Finally, the Devourer Wurm, Orboros: The Beast of All Shapes is not a particular kind god, and likely predates even Menoth. Most worship of it revolves around placating it, and keeping its attention away from Caen and towards its hunting grounds in the Wilds of Urcaen, where it eats unclaimed souls. If it were ever to turn its attention towards Urcaen, the world would be devoured. It's mostly worshipped by barbarians and the Blackclad Druids of the Circle Orboros.

2) The Kingdom of Cygnar isn't precisely cobbled together: It's one of the oldest powers in the Iron Kingdoms (essentially tied with the Khadoran Empire in that respect), both having coalesced during the Orgoth Rebellions. Given its central position, temperate climate, and fertile lands, it's rather rich and has access to large amounts of resources and technology, probably being the most advanced of all the human nations. They suffered rather horribly under their last few kings, with Vinter Raelthorn ruling as an oppressive tyrant until he was overthrown by his brother, Leto, in what was known as the Lion's Coup. This cemented the Morrowan Church as the state religion thanks to their role in the conflict. Leto rules with a much softer hand, but recent conflicts are quickly eroding his support, and the emergence of Vinter's bastard son has the potential to end his reign.

The Khadoran Empire, ruled by Empress Ayn Vanar, is the largest of the Iron Kingdoms, although most of it is frozen or untamed wilderness. It possesses great amounts of natural resources, but fairly poor farmland and poor amounts of the trace materials needed to create advanced mechanika such as cortexes. The past few monarchs have rapidly turned Khador into a major industrial power, and the merchant aristocracy (the Kayazy) have profited extremely from these reforms. The common people, on the other hand, are fairly brutally oppressed, with the secret police of the Greylord Covenant keeping a close eye on dissenters. Of course, the citizenry is by nature highly patriotic, and the fact that the Old Faith is only a minority by the barest of margins means that obedience to one's superiors is a divine mandate for many.

Cryx actually isn't as OMGEVIL as one might think. Sure, the Dragon Father views the living as raw materials (and eventually fuel in the form of necrotite) for his armies, but He doesn't really care much about the existence of humanity. Indeed, the motivation behind EVERYTHING that the Nightmare Empire does revolves around one single goal: The reabsorbtion of all other dragons' athancs by Toruk. Once He's eaten all of them, he doesn't really have a reason to maintain his empire. He probably WILL, and will continue to conquer things, but it loses a lot of its urgency. After all, everyone joins the Nightmare Empire in the end.

The Protectorate isn't really under anyone's thumb, and hasn't been for a while now: They'd won the right to self rule from Cygnar a while back, and is ruled entirely by the Scrutators, under the Hierarch (currently Severius, until recently Voyle, who got himself killed). Their goal is the conversion or death of every living soul on Caen, this crusade having been sparked by the coming of the Harbinger of Menoth, whose every word is literally Menoth's divine will on Caen.

The Retribution is a minority fringe cult in Ios, although it's been gaining a lot of political traction lately. Their goal is the death of all human magic users, as the Retribution believes that the Gift is what's killing their gods (mostly Scyrah, because barring Nyssor she's the only one left).

The Trollbloods are pretty much the buttmonkeys of the Iron Kingdoms, having been collectively shat upon by human empire after human empire. They're currently in the process of being shafted by Cygnar, who the Kriels are fighting an insurgency against in order to preserve their ancestral lands.

The Skorne are one of the more interesting Empires, with the vast bulk of their lands being across the Bloodstone Marches, the Storm Lands (formerly Iosan homeland until it went boom), and the Great Abyss (the former Iosan capital). A martial people, they were conquered one at a time by Vinter Raelthorne, deposed king of Cygnar (who they view as the self-reincarnation of their never-Exalted first philosopher king), who then proceeded to use them as his own personal army. The Skorne have recently decided that he's something of a douche after discovering that he's treating them as expendable meatshields in his conquest of his homeland.

The Skorne are atheists, which in the world of Caen means that their souls do not enter the afterlife and are instead plunged into the Void, a rather terrible place of nonexistence and torture (possibly where Infernals dwell and most certainly where the monstrous former souls that Cryxian Bane Thralls are animated by come from). In order to avoid this, the Skorne Extoller Caste entomb the souls of the greatest warriors in sacral stones, which preserve them on Caen for all eternity, and give them the chance to walk again in the form of Ancestral Guardians. This process, known as Exaltation, is the primary driving force of Skorne society.

The Skorne use pain as a tool, using it on their beasts in order to train them and bend them to their will, and on themselves as a teaching method: Pain is a means, not the end goal. They believe suffering makes one stronger, and hones both the mind and body. A few cults, such as the Nihilators, take this to extremes, torturing themselves in order to gain enlightenment. Most, however, merely settle for the scars of battle.

Skorne society is broken into Houses, each lead by a Dominar, which until the coming of Vinter warred amongst each other constantly, both for resources and to prove themselves worthy of Exaltation. Now, the Houses are united under Archdomina Makeda, who is struggling to recover from Vinter's betrayal and turn the Skorne's long westward march into a net gain for the Empire.

Can someone please list all the dragons currently alive and those that have died excluding Everblight and Toruk and their dominant characteristics, I was sort of blindsided by the fact that Cryx just found an athanac without having to redo the whole Pyromalfic scene again.