*updated army list*


Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list. I've preached so hard for their effectiveness though that its a common theme here now, which makes not posting my own list for critique of questionable use.

The only reason I post this now is because a discussion in another thread has me second-guessing myself, and with the biggest tournament I've ever been to coming up, I'd be interested in some feedback.


Total Points: 1,849

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka + Ammo Runt
HQ: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field

Troop1: 18 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw
Troop2: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop3: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop4: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop5: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha

Elite1: Snikrot + 3 Kommandos + 2 Kommando Burna Boyz
Elite2: 15 Burna Boyz

Fast Attack1: Deffkopta with twin-linked rokkits and buzzsaw
Fast Attack2: 2x Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits

Heavy1: Battlewagon/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Planks/Grabbin' Klaw/Big Shoota
Heavy2: Battlewagon/Reforced Ram/Grabbin' Klaw/Big Shoota


Ghazghkull + Troop1 go into Heavy1.
KFF+Burna Boyz go into Heavy2.
Deffkopta scouts/outflanks depending on who goes first.

Couple of notes:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

2. This list is simple and works well together. I haven't been to any GTs yet (first one is coming up) but this list has won dozens of tournaments around the east coast. In fact, pretty much every game I've played in the last year.

3. I usually take big shootas on the trukks (minimalist view), but was reading a thread about rokkits on trukks...and I think random rokkits and extra potential anti-tank is critical in such a heavily mechanized meta-game. I haven't played with rokkits instead of big shootas yet, but I think the idea definitely has merit, which is why I stuck them into this list.

4. My anti-tank is the occasional rokkit, but in reality, my vehicles are delivery mechanisms for powerklaws across boarding planks. I have Ghazghkull for heavy-lifting and land-raiders, grabbin' klaws in case the job doesn't get done the first time, and a slew of trukks with boarding planks. Most common tactic against mechanized lists is to cross the table at full speed (losing a couple vehicles usually despite the KFF) and line my vehicles up against theirs for boarding plank attacks - whatever spills out doesn't get to counter-assault my boyz because they're still embarked, and if they assault my vehicles, I moved 7+ inches so they need 6+ to hit.

5. My battlewagons go side-by-side. If I lose one, the HQ from the lost wagon jumps into the other wagon and the boyz keep trundling forward. People usually go after my KFF first (smart) so I end up losing a few burnas in the process - while I love the burnas in normal games where I can use them, they're really my trump card against tyranid MCs and genestealers. Then again, there's a new codex out and this Saturday is dedicated to learning tyranids before the GT; I've got a friend headed to my house for a full day of food, booze, and hopefully showing me where my weaknesses are against new tyranids.

6. I've been using red paint job since always. I decided to take it out this time. Ghazghkull Thraka in a battlewagon has a 29" charge range potential on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! Slow and purposeful can effect that, but regular boyz have a 27" guaranteed charge range. Red paint gives that +1". Since the Waaaugh! is turn2+, a 12" deployment, 12" turn 1 move, there's only 24" left of the board to cover, which is inside that 27" without red paint. If I deploy first and my opponent deploys in the opposite corner....well, an extra 1" won't give me a charge, its going to be a turn3 charge anyway. Out of all the games I've played, I can't really recall many instances where 1" made a difference. I'm usually trundling up right next to the enemy, deploying out, using the Waaaugh! movement to position for optimal assault / multi-assault, then letting fly.

7. I have Deffrollas, and use them when allowed. They won't be for the venue that this list is for - the TO believes the rules allow for it, as do I...but he doesn't want to bog down the GT with people whining that it isn't fair. I can take it or leave it just as easily (think I've only ever killed a vehicle once with a deff-rolla); I'd only be irritated if I didn't know before hand, and made a list using them when it wouldn't be allowed.

All in all, I'm aiming for sleek, efficient, killy, and survivable. Despite having a mobile 4+ save (and when I lose vehicles, the subsequent craters/wreckage are 4+ saves, I still grimace about low-terrain boards because losing vehicles on the way up is inevitable, and moving boyz across the board on foot without cover is an abomination to Gork and Mork, who sacrifice warbosses as squigmeat when it happens.

My obvious weaknesses are heavily mechanized lists and land-raiders. I've taken all the precautions against both that I can think of, with the exception of subbing out snikrot or my burnas to give me tank-bustas...and I'm not convinced about that one in 1850. In 2k, I probably have tankbustas. In 2500, I absolutely have tank-bustas.

Comments, criticisms, and suggestions welcome.

You ask for comments, criticism, and suggestions... I didn't see where you asked for condemnation, but would that be OK, too? For instance, could I start off my review with, "I think the only thing I like in the entire post is 'hey, folks!' Outside of that, you have nothing that you can expect to use with any effectiveness in the entire list!"

Or should I just post your Yugioh card, Puss'n'hat? Seeing you doubt your list given the torrent of advice you give to others reminds me of the first time that I saw a 'softer side of Sears' commercial.

I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.

See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.

I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible.

I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

1 deff kopter?

As regards to dethrollas, I've had the same thoughts myself. I could save myself 40 points and invest in something else.

Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

DooDoo wrote:Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

I played against this in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. Spearhead deployment, with a frikkin' river between us and a bridge over it. 9 lascannon shots turns into 5-6 hits. 12 ML shots turns into 7-8 hits. KFF turns those lascannon shots into 2-3 hits, and the ML shots into 3-4 hits. Then we deal with whether they're shooting at trukks or battlewagons. Historically they go for trukks because they're an easier target, and I lose 2-3 of them (at least, that's what happens so far). If they go for battlewagons, AV14 with a 4+ save does its own thing.

I'm not saying that I have a magic bullet; my games against Space Wolves (and the guy I play is a pretty exceptional player) are very difficult, but I haven't yet been simply disembarked army-wide before piling into the enemy.

DooDoo wrote:Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

Nothing is ever certain, but the odds aren't bad for crossing the field. A lascannon has very little chance of destroying a battle wagon, and only marginally better for immobilizing. For that list, I'm assuming they are all shooting with a 3 ballistic skill:

9 lascannons

4.5 hits

0.75 penetrates, and 0.75 glances

Half will be blocked by 4+ cover save

Penetrates yield 0.25 immobilizes or higher, and glances yield 0.125 immobilizes or higher.

So the odds are that he will lose nothing from lascannon fire unless they targetted trukks instead, and the rest will plow in. I don't have stats on hand for the ML to run the numbers on what effect they would have. Given that most wise opponents would try to take out the KFF, presenting better targetting opportunities for post T1, there's a fair assumption that he will lose nothing prior to unloading the boyz.

mercer wrote:I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.
See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.
In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible

Yes, he has a bosspole; its largely irrelevant though. My army is fearless when it counts...which is why the nobs don't have bosspoles. If I'm in close combat and I lose, leadership is the least of my worries with a 12 man unit. Ghazghkull rarely assaults with the boyz; he breaks off and does his own thing, preferably against terminators, big MCs, ICs + retinues....

mercer wrote:I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

My army hinges around NOT moving only 6" per turn. I *need* to be in close combat on turn 2; turn3 at the latest if I end up at the opposite corner as my opponent. Yes...the orks really need that +1 attack. My playstyle and KoS style don't allow for lollygagging in the middle of the field tossing STR4 AP6 shots at stuff as killing power. If I want to shoot at a unit, I'll roll a battlewagon full of burnas up to it and drop 15 templates on them - other than that, I'm busting my butt to get close as fast as possible.

As for why getting out of my tank and putting myself at risk - trukks aren't well armored, and battlewagons aren't either once you're crossing the field and side armor is available. I *presume* I'm getting out one way or the other, and I prefer to do it voluntarily whilst screaming into the enemy than to get my ride shot out from under me.

mercer wrote:I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

Snikrot hits rear armor just fine, boyz can glance it with a plethora of attacks, and their *REAL* purpose is to present a threat against the rear table edge. I know you've seen the threads about Snikrot's utility and the countless arguments both ways.

mercer wrote:lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

*shrugs* Maybe its your thread I'm referring to? I dunno. I think your analogy about the pot and kettle is misplaced though; wrong context. =p

mercer wrote:1 deff kopter?

That's right. If I go first, that's a first turn assault on a vindicator, or a longfang squad, or a loota squad, or whatever is going to grief me as I try crossing the table. If I don't go first, its an outflanking tool to assist me in dealing with something.

mercer wrote:Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

I pretty much have two speeds. 18" or 12". On turn2+ when I'm piling out to assault, its generally 8-12". In terms of assaulting my vehicles, this is an issue for when my vehicles are stacked up against enemy vehicles and I'm trying to blow up their vehicles with boarding planks. Pretty much certain that its a 12" move. If the enemy is crossing the table to ME, and I don't need 12" to get in...all the better. Assaulting my vehicles is fine - even if they kill it; it means that my boyz are safe and have a counter-assault next turn.

Carnuss wrote:
Nothing is ever certain, but the odds aren't bad for crossing the field. A lascannon has very little chance of destroying a battle wagon, and only marginally better for immobilizing. For that list, I'm assuming they are all shooting with a 3 ballistic skill:

9 lascannons

4.5 hits

0.75 penetrates, and 0.75 glances

Half will be blocked by 4+ cover save

Penetrates yield 0.25 immobilizes or higher, and glances yield 0.125 immobilizes or higher.

So the odds are that he will lose nothing from lascannon fire unless they targetted trukks instead, and the rest will plow in. I don't have stats on hand for the ML to run the numbers on what effect they would have. Given that most wise opponents would try to take out the KFF, presenting better targetting opportunities for post T1, there's a fair assumption that he will lose nothing prior to unloading the boyz.

Wolves, like marines, are BS 4.

DooDoo wrote:Wolves, like marines, are BS 4.

That's fine. It's still only clocking in at a 56.25% chance of taking the wagon out from under his KFF, which isn't great odds, and doesn't actually stop the bulk of his force from moving forward. Are the missle launchers also strength 8 and fired at BS4? If so, I'd assume they would be pegging trukks instead of wagons given that they can't do much to AV 14.

12 shots

8 hits

5.333 penetrates, 1.333 glances

2.666 penetrates pass cover, 0.666 glances pass cover

1.777 penetrates score immobilize or higher, 0.222 glances score immobilize or higher.

Those numbers start to tear down his numbers a bit, but he does still have 1 or 2 wagons and 3 trukks hitting the front line on turn 2, assuming he went first. The numbers get quite a bit worse if he's going turn 2 with only 1 wagon and 1 trukk hitting the front, with the rest of the boyz only coming in if they managed to crash within move+assault+Waaagh! range. Those numbers are further thinned by possible pinning and break checks caused by the explosion and fire leveled on units that fell out of their trukks...

Dashofpepper wrote:

mercer wrote:I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.
See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.
In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible

Yes, he has a bosspole; its largely irrelevant though. My army is fearless when it counts...which is why the nobs don't have bosspoles. If I'm in close combat and I lose, leadership is the least of my worries with a 12 man unit. Ghazghkull rarely assaults with the boyz; he breaks off and does his own thing, preferably against terminators, big MCs, ICs + retinues....

mercer wrote:I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

My army hinges around NOT moving only 6" per turn. I *need* to be in close combat on turn 2; turn3 at the latest if I end up at the opposite corner as my opponent. Yes...the orks really need that +1 attack. My playstyle and KoS style don't allow for lollygagging in the middle of the field tossing STR4 AP6 shots at stuff as killing power. If I want to shoot at a unit, I'll roll a battlewagon full of burnas up to it and drop 15 templates on them - other than that, I'm busting my butt to get close as fast as possible.

As for why getting out of my tank and putting myself at risk - trukks aren't well armored, and battlewagons aren't either once you're crossing the field and side armor is available. I *presume* I'm getting out one way or the other, and I prefer to do it voluntarily whilst screaming into the enemy than to get my ride shot out from under me.

mercer wrote:I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

Snikrot hits rear armor just fine, boyz can glance it with a plethora of attacks, and their *REAL* purpose is to present a threat against the rear table edge. I know you've seen the threads about Snikrot's utility and the countless arguments both ways.

mercer wrote:lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

*shrugs* Maybe its your thread I'm referring to? I dunno. I think your analogy about the pot and kettle is misplaced though; wrong context. =p

mercer wrote:1 deff kopter?

That's right. If I go first, that's a first turn assault on a vindicator, or a longfang squad, or a loota squad, or whatever is going to grief me as I try crossing the table. If I don't go first, its an outflanking tool to assist me in dealing with something.

mercer wrote:Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

I pretty much have two speeds. 18" or 12". On turn2+ when I'm piling out to assault, its generally 8-12". In terms of assaulting my vehicles, this is an issue for when my vehicles are stacked up against enemy vehicles and I'm trying to blow up their vehicles with boarding planks. Pretty much certain that its a 12" move. If the enemy is crossing the table to ME, and I don't need 12" to get in...all the better. Assaulting my vehicles is fine - even if they kill it; it means that my boyz are safe and have a counter-assault next turn.

I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

A I.C on his own? Tactic will only last so long. Works to a degree, depends on luck I guess. Though assault terminators and retinues with one I.C is gonna end badly :(

I know that. But the added fire power does help, you pop a transport with your nob because of the boarding plank. You don't get shot of of your transport next turn, so you can gun them down with twice the shots instead of sluggas. Or if things are too dangerous to get out and no armour you only have infantry, you need to be within 12" to shoot them, with shootas you get a extra 6" range. Against the opponents I play against I sometimes have to get out and not due to my own choice! :(

Snitrot still needs a 4+ to glance and presuming 4+ to hit. Not a great tank killer. I have read about kommandos, I still don't think they're impressive.

Nope. I've often suggested taking rokkits to other people about there lists and you've often shot it down, so perhaps not pot calls the kettle black more more contradicting as you said don't take rokkits but now you..anyway doesn't matter about those. I presume you found a use for them anyway?

1 deff kopter doesn't threaten anybody. Your banking on doing damage with S7, sure got more strength than snitrot but its not something you can count on. You'll be lucky to pop anything with the rokkit, but better chances in assault against a vehicle, but still not 100% guranteed to wreck it. In assault against a unit the deffkopter more than likely die. Literally a suicide unit, I would take 3 of these in seperate slots, at least you know have triple chance and can target three seperate units - bonus is these take a lot of fire power to get rid off mainly because they either take anti tank to instant death or rob fire power from another unit which is just too much. Highly annoying, but take in multiples.

If your piling out the trukk to assault then why would anyone want to assault a empty lowly trukk for? The way you said it was if you moved 6" from my understanding.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list.

Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

Dash,

What is your response when someone uses skimmers to block your vehicles from getting through? Do you try to ram or go around?

I might be able to understand a 1 deffkopta distraction...but it's 70 frikkn points man! as far as distractions go, that's expensive! Alone, it's not quite as killy as it could be. even with a single wingman he'd be more threatening.

Otherwise, solid list it looks like, it should be able to charge across the table and smash things without too many problems.

mercer wrote:I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

Keep in mind that by the time his boyz are available to be shot at, they are in the opponent's grill. Moreover, they are fearless for the first turn that they are there. Since the klaw is the dangerous part of the unit, as long as his nob and a handful of boyz are remaining, he's moving into his next combat unhindered. From my experience playing with this playstyle, the turns subsequent to your initial assault are just a rolling assault phase that moves from one group of units to another.

61 boyz and 6 klaws smacking into a frontline will typically

1) win combat (meaning their unit size doesn't matter)
2) destroy whatever they come into contact with within 2 assault phases

That means regardless of what the unit size is, unless enough firepower is poured onto a unit to eliminate it and it's klaw, more likely than not the unit will be moving on and continuing to dish out pain.

While that only amounts to two groups of boyz with bonus klaws, they aren't alone, and have fire support from the burnas and back end support from the kommandos helping to eliminate any credible threat of counter assault or heavy anti-infantry fire.

If the opponent was heavy on artillery, then they will have eliminated a portion of his troops prior to arrival, and will be limited on responses once the orks are stuck in.

Alternatively, if the opponent had ineffective artillery or very little of it, but had more anti-infantry options, then it depends what kind of anti-infantry options they present. Heavy CC options can prove problematic, since he has no options for out-shooting the opponent. But with shooting anti-infantry, he should fair well.

I stand by my statement from previous threads that the number 1 threat to a list of this kind is plentiful anti-vehicle shots mixed with credible CC threats prepared for counter assault. That presents a mixture of threats that are difficult to answer with a KoS list regardless of how you try to field it. There are some issues with pinning down agile vehicles, as well, but not nearly as much difficulty introduced as outclassing you at your own game, which is close combat.

A good assault can easily claim 500 points of exposed enemies in a single turn with this list, and should result in a hobbled enemy. If Snikrot arrives on the same turn, even moreso. I would go with the list, and it should fair well against most opponents.

If anything, I might suggest dropping the kopta altogether and one trukk, then switching out for an additional wagon with a few extra boyz crowded into it. It makes your targets a slight bit harder, and therefore more resilient to the artillery doomsday scenario described with Wolves.

olympia wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list.

Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

Reading comprehension ftw...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mercer, to address your concerns...

I don't need my army to be permanently fearless. I only need them fearless on the turn that I charge, and the following turn while we resolve combat; that's what Ghazghkull is for.

I.C on his own? This isn't an I.C, this is GHAZGHKULL THRAKA! G.H.A.Z.H.K.U.L.L T.H.R.A.K.A. Those are initials for something unholy and terrifying I'm sure. STR10, 7 attacks, 2++ save....I'm not afraid to throw him at anything by himself except for IG hordes, C'Tan weapons, and that's about it. When possible, I'll toss him into the other side of an assault as some of my boyz to make my opponent choose which to attack, and most of the time, Ghazghkull holds out just fine for a turn by himself, then I pile a victorious boyz unit into the back of whatever he's locked with, to make my opponent choose an even more difficult choice: Attack Ghazghkull who's now lost his 2++, or attack the tiny boyz unit that's bringing another powerklaw to the fight.

Ghazghkull isn't afraid of assault terminators or ICs with retinues. Except for Eldrad with a seer council doing the whole 3++/4++ rerollable thing, and similar units (relentless guardsmen, or whichever ones ignore combat resolution) - he won't get tangled up in that voluntarily. That's what burnas are for.

In terms of Snikrot against vehicles: You're right. He's not optimally designed to kill vehicles. Using him against rear armor is a last resort thing when he has no other target on the whole table. Like I said; his *real* utility isn't what he does on the table, its how my opponents react to his presence. That's why I bring him.

That lone deffkopta is a force multiplier. It doesn't win battles, and its probably not going to live through the whole battle...but I don't have the available points to take three fast attacks of them. If I were, what do you think I should drop to make room for them? My deffkopta is for tying up a Longfang squad in close combat until my army crosses the board. For assaulting a predator before it can shoot at me. For tieing up a heavy weapons team. A squad of Lootas.

Like I said; I'm open to input about what to change....you're criticizing, but not offering suggestions for change. How would you do it differently?

Dash, couple of things.

Armor Plates. I find them pretty much mandatory with a list like this. I *need* to keep moving every turn. A "Stunned" result means either a dead trukk next turn or more fire into the rest of the band.

Rokkits on trukks. I've thought long about this, but have decided against it (though I want to play test a little more). My trukks are always on the move, either to deliver the boyz or tank shocking with the ram after dropping them off. Or the trukks are dead. Either way, the gun is there just to soak up a "weapon destroyed" result. I would love to take the potshot at a fast enemy transport for sure, but the chance is so rare that I just live with out. Plus, not paying for the RL offsets some of the Armor Plates cost.

Kommandos. I love 'em, but have you played around with dropping the Kommando squad size down to closer to minimum? Basically, the way they've worked for me is that if my target's a vehicle, it's mostly about what Snikrot and his 6 re-rollable S6 attacks can do, and if it's an assault against anti-tank troops, it's about the burna templates and then Snikrot to buy a round or two. My boyz rarely contribute much unless I get into a more conventional assault which, to me, is a lesser use of the kommando. Yeah, I don't get to multicharge much, but even with auto-hits S4 doesn't often add up to much.

Plus, if you cut that unit down to 5 plus Snikrot and 2 burnas and it's 165 pts. Yes, it's a surefire suicide unit at this point, but it's a suicide unit more often than not anyway. This frees up 90 points which darn near gets you to upgrade a trukk mob to be 20 in a battlewagon. You can tweak the points or units, I'm sure.

Anyway, YMMV, but it's been the variant that I've been running more often. Snikky's still in there, you still have to watch for him, but it gives me that one more BW full of goons with a better shot of reaching the enemy.

Good luck in your tourney.

Dashofpepper wrote:

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka
HQ: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field

Best two HQ's in the codex. So far so good.

Troop1: 18 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw

Bosspole? Sure. Why not shoota boyz? Shooting 36 shots out of a battlewagon is win.

Troop2: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop3: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop4: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop5: 11 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha

Yuk

Elite1: Snikrot + 14 Kommandos/2 Burna Boyz

I don't know what your metagame is like but if you expect vehicles Snikrot is usually terrible.

Elite2: 15 Burna Boyz

They are fine but probably overkill. If I run them I'd maybe run them smaller and put points elsewhere.

If your putting the KFF with them you're going to have a Wagon without a Klaw in it which is a missed opportunity. Maybe swap the Big Mek with Ghaz.

Fast Attack1: Deffkopta with twin-linked rokkits and buzzsaw

Yup I'd run at least one more of these to lower the odds of getting screwed on reserve rolls

Heavy1: Battlewagon/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Planks/Grabbin' Klaw/Kannon
Heavy2: Battlewagon/Reforced Ram/Grabbin' Klaw/Kannon

I'd add more rockitts since you have so little ranged firepower.

Couple of notes:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

Your list has zero fire support which in my metagame means I lose the game on turn 1 or 2 when I have to eat shooting from 2 Manticores, 3 Hydras and 3 Vendettas with no means of killing any of them short a scouted deffkopta. KFF or not half my army is usually running off the table under this scenario and I have to counter it with something immediately.

2. This list is simple and works well together. I haven't been to any GTs yet (first one is coming up) but this list has won dozens of tournaments around the east coast. In fact, pretty much every game I've played in the last year.

I still think you're either grossly outplaying your opponents and/or play in a metagame where top tier lists don't exist. I can't imagine how your list stands up to a quality IG list or shooty WH or Marines.

3. I usually take big shootas on the trukks (minimalist view), but was reading a thread about rokkits on trukks...and I think random rokkits and extra potential anti-tank is critical in such a heavily mechanized meta-game. I haven't played with rokkits instead of big shootas yet, but I think the idea definitely has merit, which is why I stuck them into this list.

A lone bs 2 rockitt shot on such a fragile platform probably isn't worth sacrificing 6 inches of movement but I suppose it might be worth trying.

4. My anti-tank is the occasional rokkit, but in reality, my vehicles are delivery mechanisms for powerklaws across boarding planks. I have Ghazghkull for heavy-lifting and land-raiders, grabbin' klaws in case the job doesn't get done the first time, and a slew of trukks with boarding planks. Most common tactic against mechanized lists is to cross the table at full speed (losing a couple vehicles usually despite the KFF) and line my vehicles up against theirs for boarding plank attacks - whatever spills out doesn't get to counter-assault my boyz because they're still embarked, and if they assault my vehicles, I moved 7+ inches so they need 6+ to hit.

Boarding planks are great but I don't see how you can deliver that much damage if you aren't stopping your opponents fire support.

5. My battlewagons go side-by-side. If I lose one, the HQ from the lost wagon jumps into the other wagon and the boyz keep trundling forward. People usually go after my KFF first (smart) so I end up losing a few burnas in the process - while I love the burnas in normal games where I can use them, they're really my trump card against tyranid MCs and genestealers. Then again, there's a new codex out and this Saturday is dedicated to learning tyranids before the GT; I've got a friend headed to my house for a full day of food, booze, and hopefully showing me where my weaknesses are against new tyranids.

I considered running burnas in my most recent list as anti-nid tech but dumped them at the last minute for more troops. I still think I'll try to wedge them in to a larger list somewhere.

6. I've been using red paint job since always. I decided to take it out this time. Ghazghkull Thraka in a battlewagon has a 29" charge range potential on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! Slow and purposeful can effect that, but regular boyz have a 27" guaranteed charge range. Red paint gives that +1". Since the Waaaugh! is turn2+, a 12" deployment, 12" turn 1 move, there's only 24" left of the board to cover, which is inside that 27" without red paint. If I deploy first and my opponent deploys in the opposite corner....well, an extra 1" won't give me a charge, its going to be a turn3 charge anyway. Out of all the games I've played, I can't really recall many instances where 1" made a difference. I'm usually trundling up right next to the enemy, deploying out, using the Waaaugh! movement to position for optimal assault / multi-assault, then letting fly.


7. I have Deffrollas, and use them when allowed. They won't be for the venue that this list is for - the TO believes the rules allow for it, as do I...but he doesn't want to bog down the GT with people whining that it isn't fair. I can take it or leave it just as easily (think I've only ever killed a vehicle once with a deff-rolla); I'd only be irritated if I didn't know before hand, and made a list using them when it wouldn't be allowed.

We use INAT FAQ and in that ruleset deffrollas don't work on vehicles so I don't run them.

All in all, I'm aiming for sleek, efficient, killy, and survivable. Despite having a mobile 4+ save (and when I lose vehicles, the subsequent craters/wreckage are 4+ saves, I still grimace about low-terrain boards because losing vehicles on the way up is inevitable, and moving boyz across the board on foot without cover is an abomination to Gork and Mork, who sacrifice warbosses as squigmeat when it happens.

My obvious weaknesses are heavily mechanized lists and land-raiders. I've taken all the precautions against both that I can think of, with the exception of subbing out snikrot or my burnas to give me tank-bustas...and I'm not convinced about that one in 1850. In 2k, I probably have tankbustas. In 2500, I absolutely have tank-bustas.

Comments, criticisms, and suggestions welcome.

The best way to deal with mech spam is not tankbustas it is long range fire support: Lootas work wonders here.

LeperMessiah wrote:

Kommandos. I love 'em, but have you played around with dropping the Kommando squad size down to closer to minimum? Basically, the way they've worked for me is that if my target's a vehicle, it's mostly about what Snikrot and his 6 re-rollable S6 attacks can do, and if it's an assault against anti-tank troops, it's about the burna templates and then Snikrot to buy a round or two. My boyz rarely contribute much unless I get into a more conventional assault which, to me, is a lesser use of the kommando. Yeah, I don't get to multicharge much, but even with auto-hits S4 doesn't often add up to much.

Plus, if you cut that unit down to 5 plus Snikrot and 2 burnas and it's 165 pts. Yes, it's a surefire suicide unit at this point, but it's a suicide unit more often than not anyway. This frees up 90 points which darn near gets you to upgrade a trukk mob to be 20 in a battlewagon. You can tweak the points or units, I'm sure.

Anyway, YMMV, but it's been the variant that I've been running more often. Snikky's still in there, you still have to watch for him, but it gives me that one more BW full of goons with a better shot of reaching the enemy.

Good luck in your tourney.

Interesting concept. My fear here would be piling him into assault and not enough living to let the burnas get their shots in. Seems like my boyz are around to absorb two rounds of wounds so that Snikrot and the burnas can deliver their payload...

Dashofpepper wrote:Interesting concept. My fear here would be piling him into assault and not enough living to let the burnas get their shots in. Seems like my boyz are around to absorb two rounds of wounds so that Snikrot and the burnas can deliver their payload...

A fair point, which is one reason this small squad tends to focus on artillery and vehicles rather than infantry assault. Still, mathhammer a charge against a Tac squad or Devastators and you'll see you only lose a couple boyz on average. If you're worried, just bump it up a couple and you'll get your burna plus Snikrot charge.

Well, for me, Snik's job depends on which turn he enters. Turn two, nix anti-tank with extreme prejudice. Turn three, probably the turn my mechanized hammer strikes, he needs to eliminate/tie up anything that can hurt me AFTER assault: counter-attack units or anti-troop guns that might pound me if I'm standing in the open after the wreckage of 40-50 boyz plus characters doing their thing. Turn four or later, I've been ****ed by reserve rolls, so he tries to contribute where needed: mop up, tag a lone vehicle near a table edge, charge to contest an objective. The burnas are there just to give me options: torch something with low armor or hiding in cover (like a Loota squad) or use as power weapons against something like Devastators. I don't depend on them; Snikrot's the star.

To that end, he rarely uses his ambush on large melee units and I expect him to hit one target and probably die, which is ok because that means they've had to shoot/assault his tiny band of kommandos instead the large threat racing up the board. Distraction accomplished. If they ignore him to fight the larger menace, well, I've got Snikrot, two burnas, and nothing better to do. It's that whole "threat, but not too large of a threat" thing within the meta-game.

Like you've said, his other job, just by taking him in the list, is the psych factor of having to risk his assault if they set up within 12" of a table edge. A small unit of kommandos might not be taken seriously and give him a wealth of targets which I believe he can handle. The other part is that a small band of kommandos helps offset those couple of games where's there's not much he can contribute, such as against daemons that don't usually have anything lurking, don't have armor saves, and don't have any vehicles I want Snik to face.

Again, YMMV, but you might want to try it out. You already know what he can do with numbers, maybe he can still do it with less manpower.

Dashofpepper wrote:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

Like you said you are not only gunna be in close combat turn 2 you pretty much HAVE to be. And you are gunna be tying up as much as possible I would assume. Now with a DeffKoptas leading the charge or outflanking he has the option of shooting but will most likely be assaulting something. If you run Lootas they are gunna be sitting on your backline getting LOS blocked by transports and/or trying to fire at the unit or two not in combat with your Boyz. If you taught me anything about Orks it's was synergy.

I personally dont like running just one Deffkopta but I understand it's effectiveness

i my self find bosspolls very very useful but as you stated before your not a fan of them.

dont see the rokkits or kannons being very useful traveling at max speed most of the time. lol i could see you getting use out of them after dropping off the boyz but i am going to try testing out deff rollas for that.(would really like to know your reasons for spending the points on them lol i may just lean something)

i am still trying to decide if i like Snikrot or not. yes every game i have used him did a good bit of damage but never makes it past the next shooting phase.

Deffkopta are another unit i am still unsure about. yeah they make good tank hunters but i just dont like giving away kill points.

sickening wrote:i am still trying to decide if i like Snikrot or not. yes every game i have used him did a good bit of damage but never makes it past the next shooting phase.

I'm not sure why everyone says that, but it seems to be a common theme. I one time killed 2 groups of genestealers and almost killed a carnifex with his group running solo in the back of the board in the same game. I would have gotten that big bug, too, if my opponent hadn't surrendered before he went down. Snikrot is as successful as you allow him to be. Particularly when he arrives on turn 3, he tends to just be an extension of your boyz, and functions in a completely useful way so long as you don't sacrifice him.

There are those games where it is better to sacrifice the Snik to save the whole, but it's not like that's his only use in the game.

Hrm....having realized that battlewagons aren't fast, I remember why I put big shootas on the battlewagons in the first place...simply as a place-holder to suffer a weapon-destroyed result. The kannons are going to have to come off; completely forgot about that one (can't shoot at 12"). I've been playing DE for a couple months now. In fact, I'd take DE to this GT, but I can't because they aren't finished painting / basing by a LONG shot. Not even all the vehicles are done.

I'm thinking about reducing Snikrot's squad in favor of another deffkopta too....

I don't really want to give up a unit of boyz and a deffkopta to simply bump a trukk into a battlewagon and increase the model count inside; I'd be giving up two rokkits and two powerklaws to get a harder transport? I'd rather have more killyness. The two battlewagons are only because I *need* Ghazghkull and the KFF mek up front, and there's two instead of one because all my eggs in one basket would be bad news.

Carnuss wrote:

mercer wrote:I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

Keep in mind that by the time his boyz are available to be shot at, they are in the opponent's grill. Moreover, they are fearless for the first turn that they are there. Since the klaw is the dangerous part of the unit, as long as his nob and a handful of boyz are remaining, he's moving into his next combat unhindered. From my experience playing with this playstyle, the turns subsequent to your initial assault are just a rolling assault phase that moves from one group of units to another.

Your presuming that those transports will make it across the board in one piece, they will not. Once the orks are out they will get shot and that will happen before they make it into the opponents face. You can do math hammer all day long, the game is still about dice rolls. Orks will take wounds and will run off, they need boss poles. My point is they're fearless only for a certain amount of time, ghaz's waaagh! is for one turn, thats it you won't be fearless army wide after that. You start losing boyz and you not fearless. Those transports will get popped and those boyz units will get chipped down.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mercer, to address your concerns...

I don't need my army to be permanently fearless. I only need them fearless on the turn that I charge, and the following turn while we resolve combat; that's what Ghazghkull is for.

I.C on his own? This isn't an I.C, this is GHAZGHKULL THRAKA! G.H.A.Z.H.K.U.L.L T.H.R.A.K.A. Those are initials for something unholy and terrifying I'm sure. STR10, 7 attacks, 2++ save....I'm not afraid to throw him at anything by himself except for IG hordes, C'Tan weapons, and that's about it. When possible, I'll toss him into the other side of an assault as some of my boyz to make my opponent choose which to attack, and most of the time, Ghazghkull holds out just fine for a turn by himself, then I pile a victorious boyz unit into the back of whatever he's locked with, to make my opponent choose an even more difficult choice: Attack Ghazghkull who's now lost his 2++, or attack the tiny boyz unit that's bringing another powerklaw to the fight.

Ghazghkull isn't afraid of assault terminators or ICs with retinues. Except for Eldrad with a seer council doing the whole 3++/4++ rerollable thing, and similar units (relentless guardsmen, or whichever ones ignore combat resolution) - he won't get tangled up in that voluntarily. That's what burnas are for.

In terms of Snikrot against vehicles: You're right. He's not optimally designed to kill vehicles. Using him against rear armor is a last resort thing when he has no other target on the whole table. Like I said; his *real* utility isn't what he does on the table, its how my opponents react to his presence. That's why I bring him.

That lone deffkopta is a force multiplier. It doesn't win battles, and its probably not going to live through the whole battle...but I don't have the available points to take three fast attacks of them. If I were, what do you think I should drop to make room for them? My deffkopta is for tying up a Longfang squad in close combat until my army crosses the board. For assaulting a predator before it can shoot at me. For tieing up a heavy weapons team. A squad of Lootas.

Like I said; I'm open to input about what to change....you're criticizing, but not offering suggestions for change. How would you do it differently?

Thats my point about the boss poles. Ghaz's waaagh! is only for one turn, once its gone its gone. If those boyz take wounds they won't be fearless for long, they will flee, gurantee. Pop the transport and hose down the orks with mass flamer templates, I have lost 2 20 man ork units in one turn down to mass flamer templates from veteran guardsmen, chimeras and hellhounds - if I had bosspoles they wouldn't have fleed. Bosspoles are very useful and your orks are not indestructable. For 5 points they can save that unit for fleeing.

lol have you met a librarian with nullzone? Ok will you've got 2+ invulnerable, but only for one turn, again. After that he has no invulnerable save and can be instant killed with a demolisher template because he's running around on his own. I have 2 terminator squads in my 2k list with dual land raiders, can ghaz take them both? I think not because he has a invulnerable save for one turn only. So ghaz is afriad of terminators, just on on the first time he waaagh's. I think your making ghaz out to be more of a beast than he actually is, his problem is he lacks a invulnerable save full time.

Your deffkopter won't tie up a long fang squad, and if it does it would be for one turn. They only have 2 wounds and 4+ save, and who says your always going to be playing against space wolves to tie up long fang squads? Lootas should be in min units of 10, a deffkopter wouldn't tie any of those up apart from its own assault phase.

I've offered suggestions and they've fallen on deaf ears or I come up against a defensive wall. Also I thought my point about the deffkopter wouldn't need any explanation.

I've already suggested about shootas, reason more shots and further range so you don't need to get out and assault the enemy, or have them taken some damage. Also good for shooting from objectives, of course depends on objective locations. Even with 3 attacks on the charges thats a considerable amount, you'll probably get about 10 - 15 boyz in combat, depending on what your assaulting of course.

I've suggested about boss poles and given reasons why, though you seem really defensive about it. I cannot stress how much you need these. Your orks are not fearless full time, and will only regroup after ghaz has called his waaagh.

Another problem with this is list is it will suffer against a mech list. My guard army has 12 vehicles with 5 large blast templates and buckets of flamer templates. You don't have a lot at range which can bust my tanks, but I can take you out with multi lasers at range, demolisher shells and battle cannon shells for the hordes and mass flamer templates on all my vehicles and two squads of flamer veterans - ghaz would suffer against my dual CCS with plasma guns, no invulnerable save for the best (except waaagh!) means he will die pretty easily with ap2 plasma fire.

You definately need at least one deffkopter in there, however I would really got with 3.

Just FYI -

mercer wrote:Ok will you've got 2+ invulnerable, but only for one turn, again. After that he has no invulnerable save and can be instant killed with a demolisher template because he's running around on his own.

Not to nitpick, but he has eternal warrior. He won't be insta-gibbed by a single template of any kind, though the group of terminators would ruin his day as you said.

mercer wrote:Your orks are not fearless full time, and will only regroup after ghaz has called his waaagh.

Also, you are giving Ghaz's Waaagh! too much credit with this statement. His Waaagh! only effects units that are not currently fleeing.

Mercer, your ideas aren't falling on deaf ears. However, you're suggesting radical changes to my list and playstyle, when I'm looking for tweaks for efficiency. My style is to roll 12-18" across the field as fast as possible and get into close combat with assaulty orks. Yours is to roll 6" across the field and shoot, using the vehicles as protection platforms for your orks. Completely different playstyles.

Like the kannons on my battlewagons - wasted points. Dropping the kommando squad to make room for more other things - never thought of that before; its always been max size or nothing.

A note on Ghazghkull; I presume you've never used him before because you keep making mistaken guesses about what wargear he has, what he can or can't do...

Ghazghkull is T5. He normally has a 5+ invulnerable save, and he has an adamantium skull that ignores instant death. A battlecannon can't do more than wound him. I am *very* careful about what I throw Ghazghkull into, and I've made it very clear exactly how I use him and with what support - I don't fling him out there to die on his own, he's the most valuable model in my army. Remember, I've been at this pretty much same list for a year+, and have played it against pretty much every brand of army type - tomorrow is dedicated completely to a friend of mine with the new tyranids.

I won't throw Ghazghkull into a unit of genestealers, or anything that can throw ridiculous numbers of hits at me and overcome a 2++ by sheer weight of numbers, but he will single-handedly mince a terminator squad with lightning claws, or plague marines, or blood claws, or khorne berzerkers, or defilers, soul grinders, dreadnoughts, things that eat my boys up badly.

Originally, I ran Ghazghkull + a unit of 10 diversified nobs with 3 powerklaws. Over time, I realized that the two together were overkill in a combat, and I started disembarking them on opposite sides of their vehicle to go after different targets. Over time, I realized that the hevay-lifting that I really wanted from the nobs I was afraid to do with them because of the prevalence of power weapons and FNP ignoring stuff, so I removed them completely and used those points to pick up a second battlewagon, 18 boyz for Ghazghkull, and another squad of trukk boyz.

That's where I've evolved to now. I'm just trying to tweak now, just change my entire game.

I run a similar style of mech orks and that is why i asked my question about fast moving skimmers blocking my rush. I havent really figured out a way that it wont cost me a turn as none of my ork vehicles (trukks and bws) have a reliable way to take them down. I worry that the same thing can be done with cheap rhinos while long range fire power tears me apart. Isnt this the biggest weakness of this list? Not getting into assault quickly. I know it has been my biggest pain.

DooDoo wrote:I run a similar style of mech orks and that is why i asked my question about fast moving skimmers blocking my rush. I havent really figured out a way that it wont cost me a turn as none of my ork vehicles (trukks and bws) have a reliable way to take them down. I worry that the same thing can be done with cheap rhinos while long range fire power tears me apart. Isnt this the biggest weakness of this list? Not getting into assault quickly. I know it has been my biggest pain.

Boarding planks and grabbin' klaws. Skimmers can dodge out of the way of a ram with a 3+, and you can't board them if they moved more than 12"....but this would pretty much have to be a turn1 move, since I can cross the board by turn2. If someone jets all their skimmers up to block my progress on turn1...rejoice! Those lances aren't shooting at me, and LoS blocking is going to help my vehicles tremendously.

Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mercer, your ideas aren't falling on deaf ears. However, you're suggesting radical changes to my list and playstyle, when I'm looking for tweaks for efficiency. My style is to roll 12-18" across the field as fast as possible and get into close combat with assaulty orks. Yours is to roll 6" across the field and shoot, using the vehicles as protection platforms for your orks. Completely different playstyles.

Like the kannons on my battlewagons - wasted points. Dropping the kommando squad to make room for more other things - never thought of that before; its always been max size or nothing.

A note on Ghazghkull; I presume you've never used him before because you keep making mistaken guesses about what wargear he has, what he can or can't do...

Ghazghkull is T5. He normally has a 5+ invulnerable save, and he has an adamantium skull that ignores instant death. A battlecannon can't do more than wound him. I am *very* careful about what I throw Ghazghkull into, and I've made it very clear exactly how I use him and with what support - I don't fling him out there to die on his own, he's the most valuable model in my army. Remember, I've been at this pretty much same list for a year+, and have played it against pretty much every brand of army type - tomorrow is dedicated completely to a friend of mine with the new tyranids.

I won't throw Ghazghkull into a unit of genestealers, or anything that can throw ridiculous numbers of hits at me and overcome a 2++ by sheer weight of numbers, but he will single-handedly mince a terminator squad with lightning claws, or plague marines, or blood claws, or khorne berzerkers, or defilers, soul grinders, dreadnoughts, things that eat my boys up badly.

Originally, I ran Ghazghkull + a unit of 10 diversified nobs with 3 powerklaws. Over time, I realized that the two together were overkill in a combat, and I started disembarking them on opposite sides of their vehicle to go after different targets. Over time, I realized that the hevay-lifting that I really wanted from the nobs I was afraid to do with them because of the prevalence of power weapons and FNP ignoring stuff, so I removed them completely and used those points to pick up a second battlewagon, 18 boyz for Ghazghkull, and another squad of trukk boyz.

That's where I've evolved to now. I'm just trying to tweak now, just change my entire game.

Bosspoles are not radical changes. Fair enough on the shootas though, each on to their own. Taking more than one deffkopter is just common sense

My isn't exactly like that either

Kannons are wasted points on your battlewagons, shame on you!

No, I haven't used ghaz before and looking in the codex only. I didn't realise he was immune to instant death. Though I cannot see any where that he has 5+ invulnerable, unless I am missing something?

The majority of things you listed, yes. Though second time charge he will not get that invulnerable. I wouldn't take all lightning claw terminators anyway, and using nullzone with a librarian will force re-roll on that invulnerable, ok its a 2+ so its still mighty fine.

Cybork bodies on the nobz work wonders....feel no pain is good against small arms fire power.

So, thats my point about deaf ears because you still have no bosspoles added and still have a lowly deffkopter. TBH I don't think those rams on the trukks are that good as well. Trukks are weak and won't generate that good strength hit, if I'm correct they will get a S7 hit, 5 for the 18" move and +2 for reinforced ram. You will end up doing a S5 hit to yourself, not massive damage but on a already weak trukk could be threatening. I'd keep those trukks as cheap as, perhaps add red paint job in your case as its more viable wargear for your tactics and method of play. To make that S7 work you've got to make sure you hit other tanks on either the side armour, though more than likely the rear armour - not always possible.

It's under Wargear: "Ghazgkull has an adamantium skull, a bosspole, a cybork body, mega armour..."

Gotta have rams for trukks man, they can't tankshock without them and you get to re-roll difficult terrain and as an added bonus you become AV12 when resolving death or glory. By the way you can't ram with or without them.

mercer wrote:TBH I don't think those rams on the trukks are that good as well. Trukks are weak and won't generate that good strength hit, if I'm correct they will get a S7 hit, 5 for the 18" move and +2 for reinforced ram. You will end up doing a S5 hit to yourself, not massive damage but on a already weak trukk could be threatening. I'd keep those trukks as cheap as, perhaps add red paint job in your case as its more viable wargear for your tactics and method of play. To make that S7 work you've got to make sure you hit other tanks on either the side armour, though more than likely the rear armour - not always possible.

This isn't really good advice. Rams are the only method orks have to reroll failed dangerous terrain checks with their trukks, and it's the most efficient method they have to reroll checks for their wagons. You may be reading "ram" thinking that he's going to run into other vehicles with it, but that certainly isn't what he stated. The vehicles convey troops, and to convey troops effectively, it is worth the 5 points to go from a 1/6 chance of immobilization everytime you clip terrain to a 1/36.

Dropping rams is only feasible if you are playing on a soccer field.

Yeah, have a look what save cybork body gives. Please point out to me where it says 5+ invulnerable save.

mercer wrote:Yeah, have a look what save cybork body gives. Please point out to me where it says 5+ invulnerable save.

In the equipment listing under "Cybork body". Should I ask at this point whether you have ever played as or against orks? Some of these features you are bashing and questioning are pretty basic Orky stuff, and I would assume you would be familiar with what orks do before you try to fix someone's list.

I've got a undefeated 2,000 points Ork army thanks bud, well lost one game, but that was 2 on 1 and I lost by one kill point...

Ah sorry, I thinking about mega armour which doesn't have invulnerable save - what a gakker! lol.

I'm only human, like yourself, and make mistakes just like everyone else. So please don't talk down to me and question whether or not I've played orks and presume I haven't.

number9dream wrote:Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Exactly. I am talking about gakky landspeeders and throwaway rhinos make a series of road blocks to allow your opponent to get another round of shooting in. This is what that SW list can do because no individual unit is expensive. I just dont know what the counter is.

mercer wrote:I'm only human, like yourself, and make mistakes just like everyone else. So please don't talk down to me and question whether or not I've played orks and presume I haven't.

I would point out that Americans don't talk down to the British. As John Oliver states, we are culturally still convinced that the British are inherently superior to us in every way, and that probably explains why I won't buy anything expensive unless the marketing campaigns include a calm British (not Cockney) accent explaining the luxury of the product. So in fact, I'm bowing to you acknowledging your awesomeness, and no doubt you have a 99.9999997% win ratio.

I was just pointing out that you were misrepresenting the usefulness of several items in the codex. Thraka's Waaagh!, adamantium skull, standard equipment listings, and rams... they aren't unknown elements of some obscure army build.

You don't want to buy anything from cockneys

Like I said, I'm human and make mistakes like yourself or the next guy. For some reason I was just looking under mega armour all the time, god knows why??

I know how rams work. You get a point for every 3" you've moved, so if you've moved 18" thats 6 points and then a point for every armour over 10, so another 8, so a S8 hit. I think I said S7 so only one out. Still not good if your bouncing off armour 12. Though the trukk would suffer a S8 hit as well if armour 12, perhaps S9 as other things are a tank.

mercer wrote:I know how rams work. You get a point for every 3" you've moved, so if you've moved 18" thats 6 points and then a point for every armour over 10, so another 8, so a S8 hit. I think I said S7 so only one out. Still not good if your bouncing off armour 12. Though the trukk would suffer a S8 hit as well if armour 12, perhaps S9 as other things are a tank.

I think you missed my point about reinforced rams.

First, you don't take a ram so that you can ram vehicles. It can be argued that they can't ram to begin with, since they aren't tanks. While they are granted tank shock via the ram, it doesn't explicitly provide the ability to ram, and you could (and likely would) get into arguments about it depending on who you play.

Second, the primary value of the ram is to make sure that your troops get where they are going. Without rams running 7 vehicles across terrain, you are more likely than not going to immobilize one vehicle, because you have a 16.666% chance of failing your dangerous terrain check. You should lose 1.16666 vehicles as you roll through. Add rams, and you now have a 0.195 casualtry rate rolling over that terrain, meaning you'd need to roll over terrain for 6 consecutive turns to equal the probability of losing a trukk thanks to the reroll. Rams add more value than their 5 points costs you, and should never be left off a trukk unless you play games exclusively with no terrain. Even then, it could easily be argued that the 5 points is worth it for tank shock.

Yep - as far as I'm concerned, reinforced rams and boarding planks are required wargear on every ork trukk. Red paint and rokkit upgrades are optional, and the rest is mostly a waste of points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated my list as follows:

-Subtracted 10 kommandos
-Subtracted 2x Kannons on the battlewagons, added big shootas
-Added a unit of 5 Lootas.
-Struggled with doubt and self-loathing.
-Removed the unit of 5 Lootas.
-Added a second unit of deff-koptas (x2 with twin-linked rokkits).
-Brought troop choice #5 to 12 boyz from 11.

That brought my list to 1846. Not much to do with 4 points. Could drop a boy from troop 5 again to give me 10 points...but nothing to spend it on. Gave Ghazghkull an ammo runt, brought me to 1,849.

Once again Dash, your ork codex talk confuses me. You say rams and planks are required gear, but you only have rams on your trukks.

Glad you got some more deffkopters in, the other one should last longer and do its job better.

You still need bosspoles though. You need 20 points to get those - drop a burna boy?

Dashofpepper wrote:Added a unit of 5 Lootas.

I think you forgot to type those into the list. The points may be spent, but they aren't on your army list on the first page.

Carnuss, read on...

*edit*

Mercer, that was a typo, I apologize.

I've had and always had boarding planks on my trukk - didn't realize I forgot to type them out.

Dashofpepper wrote:Carnuss, read on...

Your power of hiding answers in plain sight is quite amazing.

The lootas have no cover save against self-loathing.

I'll be interested to hear how that small kommando band works for you. Every gaming pond is different and they've been effective for me, but I don't know the playstyles you will face. My guess is that Snikrot's suicide charge will still be fearsome and that 2 more turboboosting, twin-linked rokkits will help pick off the odd landspeeder, Chimera, etc.

Dashofpepper wrote:

I've had and always had boarding planks on my trukk - didn't realize I forgot to type them out.

Xeno trickery! . All you need to do is put bosspoles on and your sorted.

mercer wrote:Xeno trickery! .

Trickery? We call it "da kunnin' plan"!

DooDoo wrote:

number9dream wrote:Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Exactly. I am talking about gakky landspeeders and throwaway rhinos make a series of road blocks to allow your opponent to get another round of shooting in. This is what that SW list can do because no individual unit is expensive. I just dont know what the counter is.

Can someone explain to me how mech orks counter this?

I'd personally homogenize the kopta squads and take 2 single kopta klaw squads, but that's more of a playstyle decision.
Does get you a few points to play with though, if you wanted something else. A few kommandos? 5 is quite small... I'd have cut to 10, myself.

DooDoo wrote:

DooDoo wrote:

number9dream wrote:Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Exactly. I am talking about gakky landspeeders and throwaway rhinos make a series of road blocks to allow your opponent to get another round of shooting in. This is what that SW list can do because no individual unit is expensive. I just dont know what the counter is.

Can someone explain to me how mech orks counter this?

They don't.

At least using the definition of "mech orks" used around here.

DooDoo wrote:

DooDoo wrote:

number9dream wrote:Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Exactly. I am talking about gakky landspeeders and throwaway rhinos make a series of road blocks to allow your opponent to get another round of shooting in. This is what that SW list can do because no individual unit is expensive. I just dont know what the counter is.

Can someone explain to me how mech orks counter this?

Take a shooty element (lootas, kannons) and/or slap rokkits on everything and get a bunch of warbuggies are the two options I've seen suggested.

I'm gonna test the latter, as being able to run a purely KoS list would be fun, if not I'll give up and get lootas I guess.

i have been thinking about Rokkit Launcha on the trukk and well... i think i may just try it out my self. having 3 trukks with a give me about 1 S8 hit each turn. it dose not sounds like much but some long range shots could really help with out having to pay for a unit of lootas.

Kevin Nash wrote: They don't.

At least using the definition of "mech orks" used around here.

Then doesnt this mean that the list should be changed.

DooDoo wrote:

DooDoo wrote:

number9dream wrote:Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Exactly. I am talking about gakky landspeeders and throwaway rhinos make a series of road blocks to allow your opponent to get another round of shooting in. This is what that SW list can do because no individual unit is expensive. I just dont know what the counter is.

Can someone explain to me how mech orks counter this?

It varies by player, but there certainly are solutions. My particular solution revolves around ramming them with deff rollas, of which I carry 3 in my list. Since skimmers dodge 2/3 of ramming attempts, it means I will sometimes need to lose one turn of assaults to the wall, and wait for the next turn, when combined with the grabbin' klaws that are now parked next to their skimmers. While I may not get them all, I'll definitely open a hole within the next turn.

Skimmers dodging rams is problematic, but the other walls formed just don't stand up to D6 S10 hits. They fold, and let me in, which is exactly what I want them to do, and I rarely even bring cookies as a housewarming gift as I run in the front door.

That said, a lot of groups won't allow you to ram with a deff rolla, so that solution doesn't convey well. Dash's method, per his previous threads, is to use boarding planks, which I use as well because they do indeed cut through the nonsense and get vehicles out of your way. You may be hitting on 4s or 6s depending on how far they moved, but he has 7 power klaws assaulting the vehicles. That's 31 klaw attacks, which even when hitting on 6s will still make quite a few vehicles drive off to Valhalla.

Doesnt using a plank to destroy a skimmer cost you a movement phase? If so, hasnt the delaying tactic been successful? As I said, the road blocks are expendable as are their contents.

Yes, they have delayed you 1 turn. However, in a mech heavy environment, that's not uncommon anyway you slice it. I mean, your boyz wouldn't get out to assault a bunch of rhinoes that had guys in them, as they'd just be set up to get counter assaulted. Regardless of whether there are peeps lined up behind vehicles, inside vehicles, or under vehicles, you've got to deal with the vehicles on an opposing mech list. Them's the facts.

Mech orks excel at handing hordes of weaklings shuffling about with nothing blocking the assault. These guys really don't have a good answer to mech orks other than shoot and pray that vehicles disappear before they fulfill their role as 'power klaw conveyance mechanisms'.

Mech orks do very well at eliminating other mechanized armies, though they lose a turn to vehicle demolition.

for heavy lifting or anti armor, i go with nob bikers and powerclaws. currently i run 6 bikers (3 pk, 3bc) with a warboss kitted with bosspole, atk squig pk. add a painboy and cybork bodys, and youve now got a fast moving 4+ cover/armor, with fnp and 2 wounds each, AND 5+ invuns. its a pricey unit, but ive seen it absoarb dual landraider fire, as well as massed bolter rounds and just about anything else. if they hit a vehicle, its dead....no if ands or buts about it. (12 str 9 powerclaws, and 6 str 10 powerclaws hitting rear armor) they dont fare too well against massed infantry, but thats what the boyz are for anyway. should the enemy tanks move flatout away from you, thats fine cause then they dont shoot.... in anycase, here is my 1850 pt tourney list that ive used to great sucsess.

warboss w/ cybork, eavy armor, atk squig, bosspole, twin linked shoota, powerclaw.

warboss w/bike, cybork body, powerclaw, atk squig, bosspole

troops:
10 nobs 1/powerclaw, 4 w/ big choppas, 1 painboy. 1 w/ waggh banner

7 nobs on bikes, 3 with powerclaws, 3 with big choppas 1 painboy. 1 w/ waggh banner

4x 12x boys, nob w/powerclaw bosspole in trukk w/ grot riggers, rams and plates

1 trukk with grot riggers, plates and ram.

the warboss and nobs on foot go in last trukk. send all trukks up the gut, and the bikers up the flank. charge on turn 2 - maybe 3.bikers hit enemy armor, warboss on foot hits whatever hq/ beefy unit the enemy has, boyz suport and mob everything else. trukks have rams to negate terrain, and riggers to fix immobilized, and plates to help reduce stunned shots. failing a good shot, and a crappy ramshackle roll, your trukks will be moving to within charge range turn 2, and the only way to stop it is by wrecking them. (and rolling 1-2 on ramshackle) other point, is that EVERYTHING except the warbosses are troops choices, so can claim/contest. be prepared for the "cheese! crys" though.

Oh, and Dash - I notice one blaring error. Please change your location on your profile from "in 'ur list picking it apart" to "in my list picking it apart"

The vehicle roadblock/speed bump is a viable tactic for slowing down the ork sledgehammer. As already discussed there are a few ways to counter, each with its own chances and odds. Not going to lie; it can be a longshot to break, which is why it's a viable tactic.

I'm assuming that in this scenario you can't just GO AROUND the vehicle for some reason (impassible terrain, etc.) and have to burst through a choke point. Ideally, you will not allow yourself to hit a choke point, but some tables inevitably create one and if you run into a player with an expendable rhino or speeder, it could be annoying. But if you can go around (and remember, you should have rams/deffrollas to reroll difficult terrain, so going right through terrain should not be much of a concern), do so and ignore the problem.

Deffrolla
If your group allows, deffrollas eliminate most non-skimmer threats with ease. Skimmers, with the damn 3+ dodge, can get weedy and thus you can count on this.

Ramming
If you can get some momentum, a S5 + distance bonus ram can also be a viable solution. Again, skimmers can annoy with the dodge.

Tankbustas
Enough assault S8 guns firing out of a battlewagon can clear out most targets short of a landraider. I usually have a unit in a BW for higher point games. Glory Hogs rarely means anything as they are there to shoot vehicles.

Killakannon
Large blast overcomes bad ballistic skill. I often have the tankbusta battlewagon sport the killakannon, as 12 tankbustas is still enough. KK is ordinance, so even though it is only S7, you get to roll 2d6 and pick the highest for armor penetration, so odds are with you.

Deffkoptas
I usually have at least 2 deffkoptas (usually at least one with buzzsaw) running around with TL rokkits to pick off/assault vehicle targets. Anything you can do to eliminate vehicles in turns 1-2 help prevent the roadblock.

Warbuggies
A 3-buggy unit with TL Rokkits costs only 105 points and makes a decent sidecar to the convoy. If enemy wants to shoot them, takes fire off BW and trukks, which is ok, and if they don't you have 3 TL rokkit shots as you approach.

Lootas/Big Guns
If you have Loota support, they can clear the way. Most pure mech lists don't have lootas, but it's worth mentioning, if only for experimentation. A good-sized loota unit will shred any transport but a landraider in a single salvo. Same goes for big guns support, but even less likely to see these than lootas.

Dakkaguns
If you're running bikers, 3 twin-linked big shoota shots per bike can wipe out smaller skimmers. Wazzdakka's S8 Assault 4 version can even shoot while turboboosting.

Flash Gitz
S6, Assault 2 guns can lay the hurt on light vehicles, but you will rarely find a reason to take flash gitz.

Zogwort/Warphead
Two chances at either Frazzle or Zzap, both of which autohit at S6 or S10 (Melta) can help.

Snikrot's Kommandos
This is a bit of a stretch, but if you have Snikrot, sometimes he arrives in time to distract the enemy and maybe kill a vehicle that could roadblock. Don't count on it or buy him with this intent; it's just (rarely) useful in this regard.

Burnas/Skorchas
A possible, though desperate, solution against the light skimmer (landspeeder) threat. Burna templates always hit, ignore cover. Toss 15 over the side and try to glance the thing on 6s. An immobilized result at least doesn't let it dodge AND lets you auto-hit with PKs. Against the Storm (open-topped) you can destroy it outright. Alternatively, if you have some kombi-skorchas in a nob unit, you might try them here with S5 increasing your chances at a glance/pen.

If all else fails... PK the S.O.B.
This is why you have boarding planks, grabbin' klaws, and Power Klaws (or Tankhammers). Absorb the round of shooting, but the threat should be gone.

So, lots of "options," but most not as practical as simply having the PKs on the ready and taking the round of shooting. At least if you have deffkoptas/Snikrot/other running about, you can pick off some things in the periphery and maybe alleviate some of the damage you will take. Or just hope to get lucky with KFF and/or armor penetration rolls.

Personally, I haven't run into the roadblock much. Much more common is facing another tight mechanized column and having to crack the nut, usually with a skilled player only giving me shots at AV14 or AV13. In those cases, I tend to ignore the landraider and pick off his buddies as quickly as possible. And for this reason, I've been running the killakannon a little more often, as a clustered armor column is juicy pickings for a large blast to crack 2-3 rhinos/razorbacks in a single go.

If Snikrot with only 5 kommandoes works, and i'd imagine it would against gunlines, where hes most useful anyway will still go down( Guard?) But test it first because most people use 10-15 to be effective i've never seen or used 5.

If hes good enough, great. Deffcopts can do suicide runs to possibly kill a tank or two early on. I ran off a guard squad on the first turn the other day with one.

LeperMessiah wrote:a clustered armor column is juicy pickings for a large blast to crack 2-3 rhinos/razorbacks in a single go.

Erm...how do you do that?

The killakanna is STR7, and when a blast lands...if it hits a vehicle that the hole isn't centered over, it does half damage (rounded down). That gives you a STR3 hit against anything that the hole didn't center over, or at best, a single STR7 hit.

Are you driving up to media PA for this GT on the 27th?

Indeed I am.

Already reserved my spot and got a hotel room, and took Friday off.

gonna sign up so ill see ya there!

Out of interest, what kind of top tier armies have you fought and beaten in the past?

You go to a lot of tournaments so i'd imagine you've fought some very powerful lists.

Even though this is the biggest tournament you've been to, you could probably decide what you can beat there.

Well, I'd like to think that I can beat them all. =p We'll find out.

I've played against Chimera spam and a leafblower variant (both a minor victory involving a unit of orks with only one model left that persevered), dual-lash, Space Wolf rhino/razorback spam, the triple land raider list...

I suffer trouble from the same things you'd expect me to - long range anti-tank and heavily mechanized lists. My games against IG have been at the 2500 point level, and I had Tankbustas that I don't have here.

*shrugs* I'm going to play very carefully, ask a lot of questions (I don't know every other army and its capabilities nearly well enough), and bring a binder with codex references / cheat sheets in it so that I can help determine threats on the battlefield.

I don't believe this is the most powerful ork list in creation, but it is well-rounded, has multiplicity, is simple, and I've long experience using it. My hope is that combining my familiarity with my list along with my tactical abilities will be enough to seize victory.

Well the GT lists won't be worse than ard' boys, thats for sure. So i'd imagine you'll be fine then.

Yeah, if you can beat mech guard you can handle everyone.(kinda)

Funny, I always thought pure BW spam orks was the best Ork list. Have you ever used that? I figured Mechanised Orks would have at least 3 wagons with some trukks.

Anyway, Deffkoptas+Snikrot can really disrupt people early on, test them against gunlines, they're quite useful.

I think the army suffers from over-simplification. It does something very well, drive across the table and punch stuff in the face. Unfortunately that is literally all that it can do, nothing else. My mech eldar army has zero to fear from your shooting. And my 1850 wolf list could take this for a ride. Gobs of missiles WILL stop trukks. I dont care about the wagon, let the boyz take out a squad of grey hunters, they get shot next turn. But the trukks, all I need is to keep them from moving. If you dont have extra armor you are fethed, since any list with decent shooting can easily keep half your army from going anywhere in vehicles. And squads of 12 orks on foot are dead orks. They are only slightly harder to kill then guardsmen.

I would seriously watch out for guard, space wolves, shooty marines, mechdar and dark eldar played by good players. Your list is designed to inflict a massive turn 2 charge, sweeping your opponent. Problem is it doesnt have much staying power. Charge 10 grey hunters with one wulfen, with 12 boyz. God knowd you arent killing any of them with shooting. They swing first and kill 7 boyz. You get 4 boyz going back, which means a mere 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, oh noes 1 dead marine. Klaw kills 2 more. So you are at minus 4 to leadership and get ran off. Add in the firepower and you arent getting the maximum charges.

I refer to armies like this n00bchecks or n00bcrushers. They are very good at doing one thing to the exception of all else. People either know how to beat it or they dont. If you are winning as much as you say you are I fully recommend finding some big events and playing some very good players, it probably means your locals arent too great either.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:

I would seriously watch out for guard, space wolves, shooty marines, mechdar and dark eldar played by good players. Your list is designed to inflict a massive turn 2 charge, sweeping your opponent. Problem is it doesnt have much staying power. Charge 10 grey hunters with one wulfen, with 12 boyz. God knowd you arent killing any of them with shooting. They swing first and kill 7 boyz. You get 4 boyz going back, which means a mere 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, oh noes 1 dead marine. Klaw kills 2 more. So you are at minus 4 to leadership and get ran off. Add in the firepower and you arent getting the maximum charges.

If you are winning as much as you say you are I fully recommend finding some big events and playing some very good players, it probably means your locals arent too great either.

Yes, because despite playing an army that relies on numerical superiority with cheap models, I regularly charge equal numbers of 6 point orks into equal numbers of 20 point(?) space marines. *rolls eyes*

And in case you missed the title...this is a GT list. I'm going to a GT, which is the biggest venue that I can think of to compete against 50-80 other players and see how good I am.

"But the trukks, all I need is to keep them from moving. If you dont have extra armor you are fethed, since any list with decent shooting can easily keep half your army from going anywhere in vehicles"

OH look, suddenly your army isnt hitting all at once


Automatically Appended Next Post:

But the trukks, all I need is to keep them from moving. If you dont have extra armor you are fethed, since any list with decent shooting can easily keep half your army from going anywhere in vehicles

OH look, suddenly your army isnt hitting all at once

My point was this, perhaps I didnt spell it out. Your army relies on hitting everything at once. But an army with good counter attack and shooting can make a mess of you, as it slows you down enough to prevent this from happening. You are then outmatched with your first wave, and your second can eat all kinds of shots.

Do you face many demolishers, manticores or vendetta's in your local IG armour metagame? I would approve of smaller snikrot squads, from the response I've read, I agree he should enable the haymaker punch of a charge whilst using the least amount of points to do so and as it stands, he could do it with less.

6 kommando's, 2 with burna's and snikrot should kill about 4 marines. Now this is great if your taking down a longfangs or small dev squad and its pretty good against a full tactical squad. Although I would of course suggest you use the burners as flamers on any squad where you can get 5-6+ models under the templates as you will kill more models and take less in return overall. Burnas are undeniably useful vs things like broadsides.

Razerous wrote:Do you face many demolishers, manticores or vendetta's in your local IG armour metagame? I would approve of smaller snikrot squads, from the response I've read, I agree he should enable the haymaker punch of a charge whilst using the least amount of points to do so and as it stands, he could do it with less.

6 kommando's, 2 with burna's and snikrot should kill about 4 marines. Now this is great if your taking down a longfangs or small dev squad and its pretty good against a full tactical squad. Although I would of course suggest you use the burners as flamers on any squad where you can get 5-6+ models under the templates as you will kill more models and take less in return overall. Burnas are undeniably useful vs things like broadsides.

Demolishers don't scare me simply because of their 24" range. With a 27-28" charge range, I try *very* hard to start out of range of a demolisher, and end in base contact. In fact, against a space marine list, you can bet that my deffkoptas are turbo-boosting up the the table and trying to end the demolisher(s) on turn1.

Manticores and Vendettas: Both of these are scary in their own right: Which has the cover ignoring shot? I rely heavily on the KFF to get me across the field, and there's a couple of nasty things that I really hate there. My local meta has a few IG players, only one of which is good. And he's very good. The others I trounce on (mechanized or not), but the other....I don't know the IG codex well enough, but there's a lot of death in our games.

Dashofpepper wrote:

LeperMessiah wrote:a clustered armor column is juicy pickings for a large blast to crack 2-3 rhinos/razorbacks in a single go.

Erm...how do you do that?

The killakanna is STR7, and when a blast lands...if it hits a vehicle that the hole isn't centered over, it does half damage (rounded down). That gives you a STR3 hit against anything that the hole didn't center over, or at best, a single STR7 hit.

I mistyped it, I meant that I get a crack at ANY of 2-3 rhinos or razorbacks since they are in a tight cluster to offset my crap BS2. I try to kill the center one of the convoy because occasionally it's deployed so that the unit inside can't disembark, either destroying them (if there's no spot within 2" of the hull) or at least force an emergency disembark so they sit idle for a turn, clustered for another killkannon shot.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Razerous wrote:Do you face many demolishers, manticores or vendetta's in your local IG armour metagame? I would approve of smaller snikrot squads, from the response I've read, I agree he should enable the haymaker punch of a charge whilst using the least amount of points to do so and as it stands, he could do it with less.

6 kommando's, 2 with burna's and snikrot should kill about 4 marines. Now this is great if your taking down a longfangs or small dev squad and its pretty good against a full tactical squad. Although I would of course suggest you use the burners as flamers on any squad where you can get 5-6+ models under the templates as you will kill more models and take less in return overall. Burnas are undeniably useful vs things like broadsides.

Demolishers don't scare me simply because of their 24" range. With a 27-28" charge range, I try *very* hard to start out of range of a demolisher, and end in base contact. In fact, against a space marine list, you can bet that my deffkoptas are turbo-boosting up the the table and trying to end the demolisher(s) on turn1.

Manticores and Vendettas: Both of these are scary in their own right: Which has the cover ignoring shot? I rely heavily on the KFF to get me across the field, and there's a couple of nasty things that I really hate there. My local meta has a few IG players, only one of which is good. And he's very good. The others I trounce on (mechanized or not), but the other....I don't know the IG codex well enough, but there's a lot of death in our games.

Manticores ignore cover, and get multiple shots. I'd watch out for them, there probably the wost thing for your army considering everything else I thought was a threat you have given strategy against.

You should learn the IG better, they're definately the worst matchup for you with all there cover ignoring ordenance weapons.

I've found ways to beat almost any army with Mech Orks, with the right strategy, but IG are the only army I can't get around.

Oh well, the game isn't perfectly balanced I guess.

Technically, only the deathstrike and colossus "ignore" cover. The manticore ignores intervening cover because it is indirect barrage, but area cover and KFFs should still work.

Not that D3 str 10 AP4 large blasts are much less effective with a 5+ KFF save...

Grimaldi wrote:Not that D3 str 10 AP4 large blasts are much less effective with a 5+ KFF save...

You know, I'm not even going to start.

Me neither. Some people just don't like the rules.

Snikkyd wrote:

I've found ways to beat almost any army with Mech Orks, with the right strategy, but IG are the only army I can't get around.

Oh well, the game isn't perfectly balanced I guess.

It's balanced if you use the tools provided. Either that or just concede certain match-ups and pray you don't pull them in a tournament.

You can't just ignore all the Ork fire-support in the codex and then get frustrated when you lose to IG. That's your fault and a result of poor/unbalanced list construction, at least for that and similar matchups (dark eldar mech spam, mechdar, shooty marines, shooty inquisition)

Is ork fire support a liability in some matchups? Sure. But against a typical GT metagame you're better off balancing your list with it. That might mean you don't curb-stomp some opponents with crappy lists on turn 2 or 3 anymore. But you'll have a good chance of beating everyone on turn 5.

That's one of the reason I dumped nob bikers. They are great until your opponent starts dropping str 8+ pies on your unit and then uses weaken resolve to make 700 points of them run off the table.

What would you prefer? A list that gives you a 40-70% chance to beat everyone in a tournament or a list that has an 85% chance to table bad lists/opponents in 3 turns and only a 25% chance to beat good one's?

So if I understand correctly, your saying to make balanced lists. That makes sense, and its not to hard to grasp, but from what I hear all competitive Ork lists are unbalanced.

Maybe someone should try to make a balanced list sometime. 45 Lootas and 150 boys will take down a lot of foes, mechanised or not.


Ah I see. Unbalanced lists smash people until there counter shows up, after all everything has a counter, but with balanced lists, theres no pefect counter. Yeah, splitting your forces might sound bad, but lootas will take alot of heat off the reat of your army.

Kevin Nash wrote:What would you prefer? A list that gives you a 40-70% chance to beat everyone in a tournament or a list that has an 85% chance to table bad lists/opponents in 3 turns and only a 25% chance to beat good one's?

Trick question! You've created a false dilemma. What if I were to want to play a list that wins 50 - 80% or 100% of the time? You've presented two options that don't technically have anything to do with the list winning with statistics that vary as much on player skill, dice rolls, and rule sets used in the playing environment as they do on the army selection.

And if there is one thing we all know, it's that anyone on Dakka Dakka will tell you that their win ration is in the 99% or higher range. After all, how else are you supposed to use the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy in every post if you don't claim that you have a nigh flawless winning record?

Carnuss wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:What would you prefer? A list that gives you a 40-70% chance to beat everyone in a tournament or a list that has an 85% chance to table bad lists/opponents in 3 turns and only a 25% chance to beat good one's?

Trick question! You've created a false dilemma. What if I were to want to play a list that wins 50 - 80% or 100% of the time? You've presented two options that don't technically have anything to do with the list winning with statistics that vary as much on player skill, dice rolls, and rule sets used in the playing environment as they do on the army selection.

And if there is one thing we all know, it's that anyone on Dakka Dakka will tell you that their win ration is in the 99% or higher range. After all, how else are you supposed to use the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy in every post if you don't claim that you have a nigh flawless winning record?

We can't really control who we play against, the missions we draw or how the dice are rolled. All we can prepare for is our own generalship, list construction, and to a lesser degree mission preparation (assuming we know ahead of time).

My goal is to make lists that perform overall over 50% against the field using standard missions from the book and assuming both generals play mistake free.

If I draw a bad matchup or the mission is some wacky brain-child of an over-zealous TO or my opponent strictly outplays me so be it.

Well....I'll say this.

I think that I'm a phenomenal 40k player. I have limited experience to base it on. I'm going to FOUR Grand Tournaments this year. I don't know if that's a lot or not for the average person, but I'm going to hit four of them. I *really* want to know if I'm as good as I think I am.

If I get monkey-stomped and have to eat humble pie - so be it. I'm planning on running mechanized orks. If they get monkey stomped repeatedly and I discover how flawed they are, and how I need to lose my army synergy and start using other units too....I'll consider it then. The entire idea behind mechanized orks was "less models, less dice, less time-consuming." It wasn't a power build or anything crazy, but I've fine-tuned the concept very well in the last year, and its now a popular ork build around dakka - I've spent 2,000 posts or trying to convince people why mechanized orks are awesome.

Honestly, I'd rather play Dark Eldar, but they're barely assembled and primed, and only a few vehicles are painted. The GT requirements were clear: Unpainted models are not allowed, you will not get to participate, no refunds.

All in all, this will be a learning experience. One of three things will happen.

1. I will win the GT, and come back proclaiming how awesome mechanized orks are (some more). And in the future, when people tell me that my mech orks only win because of big fish, small pond, sucky opponent syndrome, I will gleefully rub a GT win in their face.

2. I will not win the GT - I will have won all or most of my games, but a combination of painting and composition and other soft scores make me not take Best overall. This actually happened to me once; 24 point massacred three of three opponents, and a guy with 1 major win, 1 minor win, 1 draw won best overall. If this happens, I will come back proclaiming how awesome mechanized orks are (some more). And in the future, when people tell me that my mech orks only win because of big fish, small pond, sucky opponent syndrome, I will gleefully rub a GT game record in their face. Also, I will whine to start touching up stuff via the paint pots.

3. I will not win the GT - I will have gotten out-listed, out-generaled, and put into bad scenarios or matchups. I will come back proclaiming how awesome it was to meet some truly gifted players, and that I'm glad to have had the opportunity to play them - I'll write extensive battle reports, ask for advice on what I should have done differently, and start planning my next GT.

Dashofpepper wrote:3. I will not win the GT - I will have gotten out-listed, out-generaled, and put into bad scenarios or matchups. I will come back proclaiming how awesome it was to meet some truly gifted players, and that I'm glad to have had the opportunity to play them - I'll write extensive battle reports, ask for advice on what I should have done differently, and start planning my next GT.

Nobody knows who you are. Just claim you won the tournament, and go with option 1 or 2 instead. Losing is much easier to handle when you are in denial about it. If you lose badly, tell everyone you are Yakface, and nobody will be the wiser.

4 GTs? At least if you get smacked hard, you'll have no problems fixing your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carnuss wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:3. I will not win the GT - I will have gotten out-listed, out-generaled, and put into bad scenarios or matchups. I will come back proclaiming how awesome it was to meet some truly gifted players, and that I'm glad to have had the opportunity to play them - I'll write extensive battle reports, ask for advice on what I should have done differently, and start planning my next GT.

Nobody knows who you are. Just claim you won the tournament, and go with option 1 or 2 instead. Losing is much easier to handle when you are in denial about it. If you lose badly, tell everyone you are Yakface, and nobody will be the wiser.

? Your kidding. Why would he lie about that? It's pretty obvious he's willing to tell the truth.

Besides, tournament results for GTs will be posted on the internet. As long as they know where he went, they might just look it up.

Denying loss isn't going to make you any better, instead you have to see where you went wrong, if at all, and how you can make the most of it by coming out better from it, a learning experience if you will. And i'm pretty sure thats Dash's goal with these GTs, to see how he can make him and his lists better. He's not posting all this to tell how awesome he is or anything.....

Unless of course your joking.

Carnuss wrote: Nobody knows who you are. Just claim you won the tournament, and go with option 1 or 2 instead. Losing is much easier to handle when you are in denial about it. If you lose badly, tell everyone you are Yakface, and nobody will be the wiser.

LMAO! I tried to convince a friend who's going to Adepticon to put the "YTTH Wrecking Crew" or something to that effect on their team shirts and pretend to be Stelek(s). (Not making any judgements on YTTH... just saying that he's a polarizing figure and would probably provide epic lulz)

Gornall wrote:

Carnuss wrote: Nobody knows who you are. Just claim you won the tournament, and go with option 1 or 2 instead. Losing is much easier to handle when you are in denial about it. If you lose badly, tell everyone you are Yakface, and nobody will be the wiser.

LMAO! I tried to convince a friend who's going to Adepticon to put the "YTTH Wrecking Crew" or something to that effect on their team shirts and pretend to be Stelek(s). (Not making any judgements on YTTH... just saying that he's a polarizing figure and would probably provide epic lulz)

So people would laugh at him for being from YTTH?

What's YTTH?

YTTH (www.yesthetruthhurts.com) is a blog run by a former Dakkaite (before my time) named Stelek who got banned from here. Depending on who you ask, he's either an idiot or a 40k master. I'll leave it at that in order to prevent this thread from crashing into the abyss. The idea was that because he's such a polarizing and fairly well-known (online) 40k figure, someone could have fun impersonating him at Adepticon.

Gornall wrote:YTTH (www.yesthetruthhurts.com) is a blog run by a former Dakkaite (before my time) named Stelek who got banned from here. Depending on who you ask, he's either an idiot or a 40k master. I'll leave it at that in order to prevent this thread from crashing into the abyss. The idea was that because he's such a polarizing and fairly well-known (online) 40k figure, someone could have fun impersonating him at Adepticon.

In a way, he's both.

Yes, along with my pink bathrobe to wear alongside while stomping heads with my pink eldar in the gladiator.

Alas, adepticon is too expensive.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Yes, along with my pink bathrobe to wear alongside while stomping heads with my pink eldar in the gladiator.

If you play Dash's pink orks, the Hello Kitty gods would be pleased.

The Hello Kitty Gods are always pleased, to the eternal dismay of the Outer Gods. But then, everyone already knew that.

*Edit*
Hmmm... Guess the moderators didn't like the picture I used. Oh well.

Snikkyd wrote: Ah I see. Unbalanced lists smash people until there counter shows up, after all everything has a counter, but with balanced lists, theres no pefect counter. Yeah, splitting your forces might sound bad, but lootas will take alot of heat off the reat of your army.

Were I taking a survey I would have to bubble in the STRONGLY AGREE space.

Lootas are the most important part of my Mech Ork list. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART People say you can't do a balanced Mech Ork list and thats garbage. Take out a BW of boyz or whatever and you have two strong squads of withering anti-tranport fire. Worried about Chim spam? Two squads of 15 lootas will help you there for sure.

Having read your posts I understand what the idea of your army is, and as is its a fine list that should do well. I think the stronger list overall has to include lootas, were I you I'd consider removing a squad of trukk boyz and shaving some burnas to get a decent squad of lootas. Maybe remove Snikrot for another.

Speaking of Snikrot. He's fun, and in situations he can be devastating. I don't see him working well with this list. As you have him kitted out he's a bare bones distraction for the enemy. But being as the rest of the list aims to assault on turn 2, how effective will he really be? By turn 2, even if he did come in off reserves, you're main force is already there. Whats the point of having 5 boyz and Snikrot sneak in from the back when you've got a green swarm already hitting the front? Thats just me, and maybe he'll be invaluable but as I sit here theorizing, I don't seem him meshing well.

indigo_jones wrote:Speaking of Snikrot. He's fun, and in situations he can be devastating. I don't see him working well with this list. As you have him kitted out he's a bare bones distraction for the enemy. But being as the rest of the list aims to assault on turn 2, how effective will he really be? By turn 2, even if he did come in off reserves, you're main force is already there. Whats the point of having 5 boyz and Snikrot sneak in from the back when you've got a green swarm already hitting the front? Thats just me, and maybe he'll be invaluable but as I sit here theorizing, I don't seem him meshing well.

The general value of Snikrot in these lists is more the psychological factor (making the enemy worry about him) and the effect he can have on set up (if they are on table edge, Snikrot has his choice of targets; if they set up further in, they are closer to your assault range). A less than full Snikrot squad can still do what he needs to do (Snikrot and/or the burnas do the heavy lifting anyway; the kommandos are just extra wounds) and frees up points for other stuff. So, the "Snikrot Effect" is usually more about what he does for the rest of your army; what he actually destroys is gravy. It's really a matter of taste/confidence in what size he's in and what you can afford. I never take the full squad, usually around 7-9 in total size to give me a little margin for error. If Snikrot could bring tankbusta bombz, a nob with a PK, or IC with him (not going to get into that debate here, the INAT faq says you can't even if there's a semi-decent argument that you can), he would be devastating, but as it is, he's still a great addition to many ork lists.

These debts are pretty intense. I wish you good luck at the GT.

My buddy forecast that you'll have a rough time playing kill point missions with that list. He points out that KFF is great for protection, but not unbreakable; plus the fragile trucks will be your downfall in kill point missions. Regardless what he said, I figure that only 1/3 of the missions is kill point, plus 2/3 are not dawn of war, plus your confidence and super secret tech: I bet him lunch that you'll do well at GT. If you place 1st or 2nd, I get a free lunch. That cunning jerk is counting on you lose a kill point mission so you miss your chance getting 1st or 2nd.

Don't let me go hungry

I decided to go with this because of the 1/3 and 2/3 rule - it also helps that the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre won't be using killpoints. IF that was all that stood in the way of my victory, free lunch will be yours. =p

indigo_jones wrote:

Snikkyd wrote: Ah I see. Unbalanced lists smash people until there counter shows up, after all everything has a counter, but with balanced lists, theres no pefect counter. Yeah, splitting your forces might sound bad, but lootas will take alot of heat off the reat of your army.

Were I taking a survey I would have to bubble in the STRONGLY AGREE space.

Lootas are the most important part of my Mech Ork list. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART People say you can't do a balanced Mech Ork list and thats garbage. Take out a BW of boyz or whatever and you have two strong squads of withering anti-tranport fire. Worried about Chim spam? Two squads of 15 lootas will help you there for sure.

Having read your posts I understand what the idea of your army is, and as is its a fine list that should do well. I think the stronger list overall has to include lootas, were I you I'd consider removing a squad of trukk boyz and shaving some burnas to get a decent squad of lootas. Maybe remove Snikrot for another.

Speaking of Snikrot. He's fun, and in situations he can be devastating. I don't see him working well with this list. As you have him kitted out he's a bare bones distraction for the enemy. But being as the rest of the list aims to assault on turn 2, how effective will he really be? By turn 2, even if he did come in off reserves, you're main force is already there. Whats the point of having 5 boyz and Snikrot sneak in from the back when you've got a green swarm already hitting the front? Thats just me, and maybe he'll be invaluable but as I sit here theorizing, I don't seem him meshing well.

Yeah, Lootas help a lot. They give you some much needed anti-transport. Popping a few tanks before hitting the foe make the boardin planks job much easier.

Personally, I'd drop a trukk squad, snikrot, and the deffkoptas to get 2 squads of 15 Lootas, but thats just me.

Dashofpepper wrote:

olympia wrote:Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

I think ork mechanized lists were around even before you realized how to use them efficiently. Your comment "after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here" definitely set me wondering ... ...

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

olympia wrote:Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

I think ork mechanized lists were around even before you realized how to use them efficiently. Your comment "after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here" definitely set me wondering ... ...

especially since people were playing full mech KoS lists in 3rd edition...

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

olympia wrote:Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

I think ork mechanized lists were around even before you realized how to use them efficiently. Your comment "after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here" definitely set me wondering ... ...

In all fairness, you have his message record to go through if you doubt what he's saying. I can say with confidence that I didn't read anywhere in his post that he "invented the trukk" or that he wrote the codex or anything else out of line given his record of input on this forum. I know that in the two months since I first got my green tide army wiped out in a way that I had absolutely no answer to and came back crying to the boards like a girl with a skin't knee, I've seen him tear apart lists and rebuild them with people moreso than any other person on this forum. His input is consistent to the list you see on page 1 of this thread, and I haven't seen anyone at the last 2 RTTs fielding the exact makeup of this list.

You can clearly point to the entry in the codex and identify that Dashofpepper didn't invent the trukk boy, and it's also safe to say that he was not the first person to ever put boyz in trukks. However, I think he can get some credit for the majority of mech ork lists on this site getting more or less the same feedback repeatedly on this website, as there aren't that many threads that he didn't directly work with since February 2009 when he first started his love affair with mech orks.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229284.page#549708

When I saw that thread, I couldn't help but think that that early first venture into the world of mechanized move'n'shoot questions must seem as embarrassing to him as a baby picture. But embarrassing or not, that thread pretty much marks the beginning of him injecting his mech list into everyone's mech list that listened to his feedback, myself included.

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

olympia wrote:Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

I think ork mechanized lists were around even before you realized how to use them efficiently. Your comment "after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here" definitely set me wondering ... ...

Carnuss, thanks for the kind words. =p

Davicus...you've got 83 posts on the forums. Obviously, you have a life and more interesting things to do. But after a literal year dropping extensive feedback into pretty much every ork list that graces this forum, I've seen a definitive shift in list types towards the suggestions that I give; slowly but surely. I didn't create it, and my influence doesn't extend poast dakka, but a year ago....even up to 6 months ago; there were really no Meched orks on the boards. And now? Every 3rd list.

No mech ork lists? I think that's because you haven't seen much besides anything in your local gaming group. Honestly, go check out the various large tournaments that have been held for the past 1 year or more.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've seen a definitive shift in list types towards the suggestions that I give; slowly but surely.

With regards to this, well whatever makes you feel great :-). I, for one, knew what a mech ork list is even before I came to know about your nick. And I am pretty sure there are many others who were ahead of me.

I remember mech ork lists from when I started playing, like over 8 years ago in 3rd edition.

And changes in meta can always be attributed to a number of things. Such as the fact that IG can dump SO MANY templates and SO MANY flamers/multi shot weapons that running horde orks against them is suicide

*shrugs* Not sure why you feel the need to post just to be disagreeable, but if it floats your boat.

Anyway; I've had a chance to take this against the new tyranids a couple of times now compliments of Vassal40k.

If there's any naysayers out there...feel free to assemble a list and meet me online.

Dashofpepper wrote:*shrugs* Not sure why you feel the need to post just to explain the fact, but if it floats your boat.

I help edit your post for FREE.

I'll ignore the little "first!" debate going on and get right to my list-related question:

Dash, have you ever seen any point in playing with wound allocation with the deffkoptas? My experience is that 1. Their squads are too small to benefit and 2. They'll draw massive amounts of fire anyway so it doesn't make a difference.

But theoretically, what if your opponent actually treats the deffkoptas as what they are - a distraction unit? And doesn't get distracted, but instead keeps on pouring fire into the BWs? I mean, with my orks I'm willing to ignore a land raider if the situation dictates it.

With the big guns going for the boyz, the opponent would be left with flamers / bolters / lasguns whatever for the koptas, and maybe then wound allocation could help...

Still lacking bosspoles...

Buzzsaw deffkopter should be mixed with another deffkopter to use wound allocation better

Dashofpepper wrote:*shrugs* Not sure why you feel the need to post just to be disagreeable, but if it floats your boat.

Anyway; I've had a chance to take this against the new tyranids a couple of times now compliments of Vassal40k.

If there's any naysayers out there...feel free to assemble a list and meet me online.

New Nids are probably the least of your worries. Not that they don't have the proper tools, it's just that in general they aren't as powerful as the old Nidzilla.

I learned respect for the Doom of Malan'tai yesterday. ><

I'd also be concerned with Venomthropes for their defensive grenades/dangerous terrain.

If I was nids, those Burnas would be enemy number one.

Dashofpepper wrote:I learned respect for the Doom of Malan'tai yesterday. ><

Yeah I was about to mention him

Probably the worst thing for you.

Well it depends if it's ruled that he can affect units in vehicles or not =]

So I just played Hulksmash - he had a nasty Space Wolf list. Spearhead and Killpoints, and I got monkey stomped. =p

Here's his list.

HQ

Rune Priest-105
Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Melta Bomb

Rune Priest-100
Living Lightning, JotWW

Elite

Lone Wolf-85
Termi-Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Lone Wolf-85
Termi-Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Wolf Guard-235
1xWG in PA w/Fist, Combi-Melta
1xWG in PA w/Fist, Combi-Flamer
3xWG w/Combi-Meltas
Drop Pod

Troop

8 Grey Hunters-175
MotW, Melta, Rhino


8 Grey Hunters-175
MotW, Melta, Rhino

5 Grey Hunters-120
Melta, Razorback


5 Grey Hunters-115
Flamer, Razorback

Heavy Support

6 Long Fangs-215
5xMissile Launchers, Razorback w/ Assault Cannon

6 Long Fangs-215
5xMissile Launchers, Razorback w/Assault Cannon

6 Long Fangs-215
5xMissile Launchers, Razorback w/Assault Cannon

1xWG Terminator w/Combi Melta and Chainfist (in with other wolfguard)



It illustrated a couple weaknesses in my list. I need to drop a boy from Ghazghkull's wagon to stick the KFF into if he gets disembarked. Also, I'm beginning to think more and more that I need some Lootas or tankbustas in there.

Thread now being locked on OP's request.