I have a buddy who plays Tau (and does a good job at it too), but he thinks all Tau should be BS 4. What do you guys think?

Um...no. There's markerlights for that.

Fluff-wise, there's something about them living short lifespans and having bad vision.

I agree that crisis and broadsides should be BS 4, but nothing else.

I would agree, with Tau being an arguably underpowered army these days, BS 4 might put them back into balance.

Check out this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267034.page

Discussed this issue to literal death!

Boiled down to this, I believe:

I WANT TAU TO HAVE BS4 SO I AM UBER! (I kid); Tau having BS4 has some fluff support.

BS4 would solve some of Tau's problems.

BS4 would not really solve any of Tau's problems.

Tau having BS4 has very little fluff support.

Tau not having BS4 has some fluff support.

Do Guardsmen have BS 4? No? Are Tau Fire Caste Warriors not simply Guardsmen of their race? Okay, this point is moot. I mean really, with a lifespan ranging at 40 years, unless you've got plot armor, you're not going to be trained to perfection. Space Marines train for thirty years or more as scouts before they even get their 'BS4' since they need experience. So no, I find this idea absurd and not fluff-based. Now, I do think they need to improve Markerlights, such as cost, but hey, that's been pointed out quite a bit.

I think Tau shas'ui should get +1 BS instead of +1 attack. Suits should be at least BS4. But your average Fire Warrior absolutely not, that's what markerlights are for.

lets just give them all BS2 and remove their helmets.

that would be fluff based.

why is everything a blur? o.o'

Nice one...
"Woah man, it's hard to believe in the greater good when s*** is flying everywhere at subsonic speeds!"

Anyways, I think that they should only have BS3. With BS4, then they'll kill around 1/6 more guys than normal, which isn't good.

This has been discussed to death. I don't think basic FWs should get Bs4 as standard but Tau do need an over haul and do need a huge boost they are by far the weakest army in 40K as it stands and Aun Va is the worst unit by miles and miles I literally woudln;t take him if he cost MINUS 100 points that's how bad he is!

Captain Solon wrote:lets just give them all BS2 and remove their helmets.

that would be fluff based.

why is everything a blur? o.o'

No it's not. From Lexicanum on Tau:
"Their eyes can see into the infrared and ultraviolet. Tau eyesight is good, but they focus on distant objects slower than humans." - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau
Everything is not a blur to them, it just takes slightly longer to focus on it, what the difference in time between a human & Tau would be idk.

FlingitNow wrote:This has been discussed to death. I don't think basic FWs should get Bs4 as standard but Tau do need an over haul and do need a huge boost they are by far the weakest army in 40K as it stands and Aun Va is the worst unit by miles and miles I literally woudln;t take him if he cost MINUS 100 points that's how bad he is!

Take Farsight with minsquad FWs and full retinue... Profit... Tau have alot of cheese lists atm.. but like Dark Eldar, they need an overhaul to be more versitile (aka able to use 75% of the list instead of 20%) A good tau player running cookiecutter lists will be a more then formidable opponent, but then again, I've always wanted to see Kroot and Stealthsuits preform even HALF as good as their DOW counterparts.....

As far as Warriors with BS 4... Ha! (Echoing) That's what markerlights are for. Suits can get it with upgrades (unless you think they should be BS 5 with upgrades...) but then again assuming they get a 5th edition codex broadsides will probably be Base BS 10 and Crisis (now troops) will come with Powerfists (to keep up with the trend of other 5th edition updates) ......

Farsight bomb has been largely curtailed by 5th Ed as have the "cookiecutter" fireknife and deathrain lists. In a game where the opponent can charge you on turn one and they win as soon as that happens Tau are always going to struggle.

Boring castling every time isn't even the answer to a proper alphastrike marine list and neither is the Ninja piecemeal my army for easy destruction option. Whilst both those options work well against an unprepared or unskilled opponent they fail to a decent opponent who knows what he's doing.

BS4 on FW?

No

Black Antelope wrote:BS4 on FW?

No

Have to agree with this. I can see it on other things already suggested here, but not on the basic warrior.

They definately make up for the difference with markerlights and one of the most effective squad-wide weapons in the game: the pulse rifle.
S5, AP5 and 30 inch range= the bain of Guardsmen everywhere

JSK-Fox wrote:Anyways, I think that they should only have BS3. With BS4, then they'll kill around 1/6 more guys than normal, which isn't good.

1/3 more stuff. You divide by the expected hits at BS3, not the total dice rolled.



But yeah, Tau don't need BS4. While they are presently a weak list BS4 is a boring fix. The potential is there for markerlights and other weapons to make them a really unique army. They need some different points values and a stronger markerlight system, not a stat boost.

They definately make up for the difference with markerlights and one of the most effective squad-wide weapons in the game: the pulse rifle.
S5, AP5 and 30 inch range= the bain of Guardsmen everywhere

Lets go points for points 20 Guardsmen with first ranmk fire second rank fire against 10 Tau. FWs go first as they have longer range we'll assume both units are in cover:

10 FWs
10 Pulse rifles shots, 5 hits, 4.167 wounds, 4.167 dead - round to 4 Dead

16 Guard
32 Shots, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead...

6 FWs
6 Shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.5 dead - 3 dead

13 Guard
26 shots, 13 hits, 7.5 wounds, 3.75 dead - 3 dead

3 FWs
3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds - 2 dead

11 Guard
22 shots, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 2.75 dead - 3 dead...

That's in the open with massive round error in the Tau favour. Lets assume that they are in cover as normally happens:

10 FWs
10 Pulse rifles shots, 5 hits, 4.167 wounds, 4.167 dead - round to 2 Dead

18 Guard
36 Shots, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead, 4 dead...

It just gets worse and worse for the Tau.

I would hardly say you made a fair comparison. Guard have a 30pt upgrade and you compared both to in cover, where Tau would not have the advantage of their armor (both of your situations were in cover). Not only that, but you're not considering that just for Guardsmen to get close enough to shoot, if you play Tau correctly against Guardsmen, they will have to sustain a round of shooting from Tau with no rebuttle, as Pulse Rifles have a longer range. Heck, Guard can remain stationary, Tau pull up in their pimp-fish 30" away, and the Guard are out of range and can make no return fire! Lastly, FRFSRF requires the passing of Leadership Tests at Ld8, which will fail roughly half the time (Ld7 being exactly 50-50 chance), unless you take Leadership upgrades like Commissars, but there is still a failure rate you are not considering.

Basically, you left a lot out and assumed the worst case scenario for the Tau player, and Tau didn't do horrendously bad (as in, they are getting beaten up, but not wiped off the field). So in a worse case scenario, where everything is going well for a superior value of Guardsmen, Tau get beat up pretty well, but they aren't getting annihilated......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guard and Tau in the open (yes it can happen) in Turn 1, Guard 29" away from Tau. Tau will get first turn. 20 Guardsmen v. 10 Fire Warriors

Turn 1
Tau-10
10 shots, 5 hits, 4.17 wound, (no armor saves, as Pulse Rifles are AP5), 4.17 dead.

Guard-15.83 : Must move to be within range of Fire Warriors.
0 shots, 0 hits, 0 wound, 0 saves, 0 dead

Turn 2
Tau-10
10 shots, 5 hit, 4.17 wound, (still no armor saves), 4.17 dead.

Guard-11.7
11.7 shots, 5.83 hit, 2.917 wound, 1.4583 saved, 1.4583 dead.

Turn 3
Tau-8.5417
8.5417 shots, 4.271 hit, 3.559 wound, 0 saved, 3.559 dead.

Guard-8.1076
8.1076 shots, 4.0538 hit, 2.0269 wound, 1.0135 saved, 1.0135 dead.

Turn 4...... Well, we see where this is going. As ranges close, currently Rapid Fire would occur at the same ranges, as per RAW, but the majority of people I know would agree that Rapid Fire should occur at R/2 rather than 12", so if that is ever fixed, Tau will have another advantage. But the increased number of shots will just have a similar ratio. In cover, Guard will fair better, but I hypothesize they will still lose over time. That extra turn of shooting Tau get, plus always wounding Guardsmen on 2+ is just a lot to over come since Guard has a shorter range and will only wound on a 4+.

I would hardly say you made a fair comparison. Guard have a 30pt upgrade and you compared both to in cover, where Tau would not have the advantage of their armor (both of your situations were in cover). Not only that, but you're not considering that just for Guardsmen to get close enough to shoot, if you play Tau correctly against Guardsmen, they will have to sustain a round of shooting from Tau with no rebuttle, as Pulse Rifles have a longer range. Heck, Guard can remain stationary, Tau pull up in their pimp-fish 30" away, and the Guard are out of range and can make no return fire! Lastly, FRFSRF requires the passing of Leadership Tests at Ld8, which will fail roughly half the time (Ld7 being exactly 50-50 chance), unless you take Leadership upgrades like Commissars, but there is still a failure rate you are not considering.

Actually the first example isn't in cover notice how the Guard aren't getting any save. The FWs go first to represent that free round of shooting, remember the FWs have to be stationary to shoot 30" so your idea of pulling up in the fish 30" away and shooting couldn't actually happen.

Chance of success of aleadership at LD 7 = 58%, LD8 = 72% with vox caster re-roll 92%. With Commisar = 99%.

You say not wiped out but they were wiped out with 11 guardsmen left even when the Guardsmen were out in the open (which would never happen).

We can give the Tau BS4 from MLs (say they have 2 ML drones for 60 points) if you like and still out in the open (remember MLs are far more variable than the almost certain orders):

10 FWs
10 Pulse rifles shots, 7 hits, 5.5 wounds, 5.55 dead - round to 6 Dead

14 Guard
28 Shots, 14 hits, 7.5 wounds, 3.5 dead - 4 dead

6 FWs
6 Shots, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, 3.33 dead - 3 dead

11 Guard
22 shots, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 2.25 dead - 2 dead

4 FWs
4 shots, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds - 3 dead

8 Guard
16 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead - 2 dead...

2 FWs
2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.1 wounds, 1.1 dead - 1 dead

7 Guard
14, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 1.75 dead - game over

Put the cover we all know that the guard would actually be in and it is a non-contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the Tau were going first why would the IG player set up his guys within 30"? He set them up 31"+ away the Tau player woudl have to move into 30" range (could not shoot that turn) the IG could then move to within 24" meaning the Tau would get first round of shooting n. To claim they'd get 2 rounds of shooting in to just bizarre and it is the orders that make IG work and they are a pretty much guaranteed thing rather than the very up and down MLs.

FlingitNow wrote:Lets go points for points 20 Guardsmen with first ranmk fire second rank fire against 10 Tau. FWs go first as they have longer range we'll assume both units are in cover:...

But in your math, you are correct, Guardsmen did not receive saves.

I'm pretty sure statistically you have approximately a 50-50 chance at Ld7. As a matter of fact, I'm completely sure. It is why the game of craps is so popular. Maybe "simple" math your numbers are correct, but run a statistical analysis (way to complicated to right out using forum posting, as it requires integration, n/r rule, ! rule, and an expected variable z chart), and it comes out to approximately 50-50. So yes, if you buy a Platoon Command Squad (30pts) and a vox-caster for both units (5pts and 5pts, total 10pts) and a Commissar (35pts), a successful test at Ld9 is pretty certain, but that's..... 75pts worth of stuff that the Tau player isn't buying.... huh, funny how that works.... math I mean. After all that, you get four more Lasguns at BS3 though, and two poor CC units with Las and Bolt Pistols, neither are 24" range, however.

If we assume the Tau roll up to 31", and the Guard move up 6" (so 25" away), then Tau still get an extra round of shooting. So yes, it does work, you just have to use tactics (which is what most Tau players fail to recognize). If the Guardsmen don't move, then neither side does any damage, but nothing gets done. So it is boring and means nothing. If Tau move into their own range, Guard are still out of Tau range, and have to move in their turn, still. So Tau might have one turn less, but that doesn't show how their extra range can play into their hands. If a Tau player can not do this, they are not doing it right, which is hardly the army's fault. If Guard spends all their points on Ogryns, Ratlings, and Storm Troopers, it is not the army's fault if the player fails against orks, it was a poor choice of the player's to buy those units. If Space Marines spend all their points on Devastators, only to have them walking about the entire time, again, not the army or the unit's fault, but the player's.

Tossing an idea in that would "kinda" give tau BS4 (but probably won't happen till they get a 5th dex) would be something similar in essance to bladestorm but instead of forgoing firing the in next turn they take a turn in which they cannot move or shoot to 'activate' "Kauyon" which would increase their BS by 1 on their next firing (not being able to move inbetween and not stacking, so for instance, a Firewarrior squad activates Kauyon in the movement phase and cannot move or shoot, the following turn, or any number of turns they continue to wait ((not moving or shooting)) they would recieve +1 bs on their shots for that turn.) This could be for any tau model such as Firewarrior, Stealthsuits, Pathfinders, Crisis Suits, Broadsides. Not for Drones/Vehicles.
(Patient Hunter... "Aiming"

Vehicles(Hammerhead, Skyray), Crisis suits and Broadsides could also have "Mont'Ka", no moving for the turn activated, but you must fire, and you may fire all weapons at any number of targets (reguardless of wargear) twice (similar to bladestorm) however by doing this you may not assault/move/shoot/go to ground(unless pinned) for the following two turns (You may still run on those turns however if you see fit) Skyrays would be limited by their ammo of course.

But then again, the above probably deserve their own thread, just so ideas that would make tau a bit more interesting (without shifting too much balance)

As far as statistics

Potential Dice results
1-1 <7
1-2 <7
1-3 <7
1-4 <7
1-5 <7
1-6 7
2-1 <7
2-2 <7
2-3 <7
2-4 <7
2-5 7
2-6
3-1 <7
3-2 <7
3-3 <7
3-4 7
3-5
3-6
4-1 <7
4-2 <7
4-3 7
4-4
4-5
4-6
5-1 <7
5-2 7
5-3
5-4
5-5
5-6
6-1 7
6-2
6-3
6-4
6-5
6-6

36 results 21 <7
58.3% Chance to get <7

at LD 8 26 <8
72.2% chance to get <7

with an ~3% chance to get 1-1 (an extra order, making your enemy reroll coversaves for instance)

Craps has nothing to do with 50% chance to get a 7 even if you went with the other breakdown

1-1 <7
1-2 <7
1-3 <7
1-4 <7
1-5 <7
1-6 7
2-2 <7
2-3 <7
2-4 <7
2-5 7
2-6
3-3 <7
3-4 7
3-5
3-6
4-4
4-5
4-6
5-5
5-6
6-6

(No repeats)

21 possibilities 3@ 7. 12 <7
Chance of 7 =~14.3%
Chance of <7 =~57.1

@ld 8 chance of passing = ~71.4%

Chance of 1-1= ~5%

The odds are definately in your favor in terms of Leadership tests... and thats not considering taking Kell or someone with a similar rule...

@ DAR : You're running a strict analysis of dice, not a statistical analysis. Without doing all the math right now, I remember getting a 7 or below is approximately 51.8% or something like that. It doesn't seem like it should make sense, but once you learn how it all works, it does.

Kell is ridiculously expensive to take for Orders (or anything else, for that matter). Orders are, at best, an interesting bit of fluff. In my practical experience with orders, they are unreliable and their impact is generally negligible. I would not suggest they be gotten rid of, because they can help, but in all honesty, the only two really worth taking is "Get Back in the Fight!" and FRFSRF. But at I said, for practical analysis, they aren't applying here as they are not being point costed as part of the units, nor is their success/failure rate being factored in as well. You don't round your number until the very end, so technically you could mathematically account for all of this and get a good comparison.

If I were a Tau commander, facing FRFSRF, it would behoove me to move my units to within Rapid Fire range, as the FRFSRF effect is far less effective (Tau get 2 shots, Guard get 3, a 50% boost over Tau compared to a 100% boost at range), if I couldn't get a first round of shooting in, and being assaulted wasn't an issue, or negligible/to my favor/etc... I would be interested in seeing that math.

Skinnattittar wrote:@ DAR : You're running a strict analysis of dice, not a statistical analysis. Without doing all the math right now, I remember getting a 7 or below is approximately 51.8% or something like that. It doesn't seem like it should make sense, but once you learn how it all works, it does.

Without proof, thats not saying anything. Effectively you are saying "Well, while you say 2 + 2 = 4, in my opinion I recall 2 + 2 = 17, I dont remember exactally how, but I know I got that result, if you learn how the math works, you'd see it that way as well". Condescension does not a well argument make.

www.random.org (I just did the dice roller 10 times and got <7, 7 of the times, thats a truely random method of obtaining the statistical information, however if you use actual math, and any of the tools in Excel, you will get the results I posted previously)

Skinnattittar wrote:
Kell is ridiculously expensive to take for Orders (or anything else, for that matter). Orders are, at best, an interesting bit of fluff. In my practical experience with orders, they are unreliable and their impact is generally negligible. I would not suggest they be gotten rid of, because they can help, but in all honesty, the only two really worth taking is "Get Back in the Fight!" and FRFSRF. But at I said, for practical analysis, they aren't applying here as they are not being point costed as part of the units, nor is their success/failure rate being factored in as well. You don't round your number until the very end, so technically you could mathematically account for all of this and get a good comparison.

Orders are incredible, not taking them is merely nerfing your list (which I guess adds some balance as IG is currently one of the strongest lists in 5th Edition atm...).

Skinnattittar wrote:
If I were a Tau commander, facing FRFSRF, it would behoove me to move my units to within Rapid Fire range, as the FRFSRF effect is far less effective (Tau get 2 shots, Guard get 3, a 50% boost over Tau compared to a 100% boost at range), if I couldn't get a first round of shooting in, and being assaulted wasn't an issue, or negligible/to my favor/etc... I would be interested in seeing that math.

When you have the ability to fly valks/vendettas (Easily the most op transport in the game right now) 24" and grav-shoot troops, it should not be too difficult to have the guard in RF range. Also, you mentioned that Tau are getting first turn... this means that IG have the advantage of deployment, which typically mean the Tau are gonna lose.

I'm surprised that Fling has not brought up the idea of just taking 20 veterans with cloaks meshed walking across the field. This would confer a 3+ save at all times and a 2+ if you decide to go to ground (thus making you more surviable to a Vindicator shell then a full strength Termi squad) and your Veterans are BS4 base....

I would hardly say IG are the strongest army. Tournament results are enough to speak for that. Without getting majorly off topic, I will simply say; The IG codex is new, and has dramatically changed how IG work, most people are still in system shock, but once they figure out the new Guard, they will see they are just much more flexible than they used to be.

On topic, there are an infinite number of variations and comparisons against Fire Warriors and anything, many of which can show Fire Warriors alone are at a disadvantage. That is not our purpose here. We are not trying to show how Fire Warriors are inferior to any given unit. Why? Well because to any given unit in the game, there are units that they are inferior to. Aggregate units, like Guardsmen and Fire Warriors are what need to be used for this sort of comparison.

Normally, actually, I compare a given unit to Space Marines (at 16ppm), rather than against Guardsmen. I like the idea of a Space Marine being the "base" unit in the game, the most basic comparison unit. Why? Well, they are the most common and their relatively high point value and basic attributes make adding and subtracting from their base cost easier. Guardsmen are very low in points, so adding or subtracting from them would be difficult (as the ratios become much more extreme as you approach 0pts).

Not to mention heavy weapons teams in cover FTW. 60 points for 3 heavy weapons? 1 crisis suit costs that much.

@ Ren, yeah veterans are BS4 and still cheaper and have better options than FWs. Just take two autocannons and you outrange the FWs and kill them and the unit would still be cheaper than a FW squad.

agnosto wrote:Not to mention heavy weapons teams in cover FTW. 60 points for 3 heavy weapons? 1 crisis suit costs that much.

@ Ren, yeah veterans are BS4 and still cheaper and have better options than FWs. Just take two autocannons and you outrange the FWs and kill them and the unit would still be cheaper than a FW squad.

And if I take an equal value number of Harlequins I can butcher BOTH forces with relative ease. Assuming I can cover the distance without getting shot up (ridiculously easy on the majority of tables). Or! An equal unit of Plague Marines! Or a Land Raider! If neither force has a Meltagun or Lascannon, it will make short work of everyone! Ah! How about Assault Terminators! Or what about x and what about y? Maybe even a, b, c, d, and m! Man.... Guardsmen and Fire Warriors both are such HORRIBLE unit choices! They should bother be free!



In all honesty... I'm going to retire from this thread. This has all been gone over to death! I posted the link earlier, if you want to check that out and find something new, go ahead and try. What I will agree on is that Tau need a new codex and Fire Warriors need a face lift. However, BS4 is not the solution and is not a proper fit for the army.

Now you're just being ridiculous.
I'm comparing troop choices here, which IG veterans are (correct me if I'm wrong). I use IG because the theme of the army is somewhat similar (mechanized) and the statlines are similar.
What's to stop an IG player from taking an entire veteran army? Along with cheap sources of heavy weapons and endless variety in tanks and so forth.

I propose something like this:
Firewarrior Squad………………………………………………………… 110 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Fire Warrior 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 8 4+
Shas’ui 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 9 4+
Heavy Team 2 3 3 3 2 2 2 8 4+

Composition:
1 Shas’ui
9 Firewarriors
Wargear:
Armor
Pulse rifle
Bonding knife
Photon and EMP grenades

Unit Type:
Infantry

Options:
The Shas’ui may take one wargear item from the armory.

Transport:
The squad may take
a devilfish as a dedicated
transport.

Any firewarrior may replace his pulse rifle with a pulse carbine……….free

Replace two firewarriors with a firewarrior Heavy weapons team armed with one of the following:
Missile Pod………….. 10 points
Plasma Rifle…………. 20 points
Burst Cannon………. 8 points

agnosto wrote:
I propose something like this:
Firewarrior Squad………………………………………………………… 110 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Fire Warrior 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 8 4+
Shas’ui 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 9 4+
Heavy Team 2 3 3 3 2 2 2 8 4+

Composition:
1 Shas’ui
9 Firewarriors
Wargear:
Armor
Pulse rifle
Bonding knife
Photon and EMP grenades

Unit Type:
Infantry

Options:
The Shas’ui may take one wargear item from the armory.

Transport:
The squad may take
a devilfish as a dedicated
transport.

Any firewarrior may replace his pulse rifle with a pulse carbine……….free

Replace two firewarriors with a firewarrior Heavy weapons team armed with one of the following:
Missile Pod………….. 10 points
Plasma Rifle…………. 20 points
Burst Cannon………. 8 points

Still sounds pretty terrible. Assuming the HWT cannot move and shoot, I don't see many Tau players ever taking this option (let alone wanting it). Giving the Shazoooie a single piece of wargear is also somewhat strange unless you are limiting his options from the armory as well.

if you are going to go to the trouble of making a new troops choice for Tau I would see something more fair being more along the lines of THIS:

~Firewarrior Shas'vre~
These firewarriors are towards the end first cycle of military service, soon to be placed in the admiriable XV8 or XV88 Battle Suit, sometimes lead by senior members whom have already been granted this honor.

Firewarrior Shas'vre Squad………………………………………………………… 180 points (0-2)
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Fire Warrior 2 4 3 3 1 2 1 8 4+
Crisis Shas’el 3 4 5 4 3 3 3 9 3+
Broadside Shas'el 3 4 5 4 3 3 2 9 2+

Composition:
12 Firewarriors

Wargear:
Armor
Pulse rifle
Pulse Pistol
Bonding knife
Photon and EMP grenades
Unit Type:
Infantry

Options:
One Firewarror Shas'vre may replace all of his wargear to be upgraded to either a Crisis Shas'el or Broadside Shas'el for 50 points and may be given any options normally allowed by the chosen Shas'el.*

*A Broadside Shas'el has the same wargear options as a Broadside Shas'vre

Transport:
Unless a Shas'el is taken, the squad may take
a devilfish as a dedicated transport.

Any firewarrior may replace his pulse rifle with a pulse carbine……….free

Up to three firewarriors may replace their Pulse Rifle with either a
Flamer - 5pts each
Fusion Blaster - 10pts each
Plasma Rifle - 15pts each
Rail Rifle - 15pts each

Just as an idea?

My idea was more a troop choice while yours seems more like an elite with them being a 'vre squad.

Admittedly, my concept could stand some more thought but I, personally, like the idea of heavy weapons teams.

As for the ability to move and shoot, all those weapons are assault or rapid fire so I don't see why they couldn't.

I just used the term "heavy" as the weapons are suit weapons manned by a two-man team. My thinking was along the lines of modern heavy weapons teams in the military, a team of 2 to carry and operate the mobile weapon system.

Maybe changing the burst cannon to a long barrel burst cannon makes more sense considering the range.

I don't think any of the heavy options are OP considering you're actually losing shots (in rapid fire range) since it takes 2 FWs to man the weapons.

FlingitNow wrote:Lets go points for points 20 Guardsmen with first ranmk fire second rank fire against 10 Tau. FWs go first as they have longer range we'll assume both units are in cover:

There is little is proven by straight comparison of the two units. Unless armies of pure fire warriors were regularly taken and pitted against armies of naked guardsmen, then it's all a lot more complicated than that.

But I do agree that Firewarriors could come down in points, or be given access to greater tricks - more markerlights and more effective markerlights would probably go a long way.

I really don't think that we'll see Crisis/BSides in a FW unit.

I would say:
Fire Warrior Squad - 50 points
Shas'la - 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 7 4+
Shas'ui - 2 3 3 3 1 2 2 8 4+

Composition:
5 Shas'la and 1 Shas'ui

Wargear:
Pulse Rifle
Photon Grenades
Bonding Knife (Shas'ui only)
Pulse Pistol (Shas'ui only)

Options:
Up to 6 more Shas'la may be added for 8 points each.

Any Fire Warrior may replace their Pulse Rifle with a Pulse Carbine for no extra cost.

The entire squad may take EMP grenades for 20 points.

May take a Devilfish as a dedicated transport for X points.

The Shas'ui may take any of the following, at the cost listed:
*Inbuilt Networked Markerlight (may fire in addition to his normal weapon) - 10
*Targetting Array (+1BS) - 5
*EMP grenades - 3
*Target Lock - 5
*Drone Controller - Free - Must take 1-2 of the following:
***Gun Drone - X
***Shield Drone - X
***Marker Drone - X
***Medical Assaistance Drone (gives FNP to squad) - 40
***Heavy Gun Drone (as Forge World) - X

Black Antelope min squad size for Tau is 6 tey are a 6-12 army so should stay that way.

You've given then photon grenades but no way to get rid of them? That would completely screw the unit over why force them to take a peice of wargear that weakens them so greatly?

Oh and squad leaders are Shas'ui not Shas'vre.

Consider the squad size and leader name corrected.

Why are defensive grenades BAD?

Flingit doesn't like his firewarriors to live once assaulted and defensive grenades negate the +1 attack from assault so betters the chances of an assaulted FW squad's survival.

Me? I'm all for the tarpit. I don't leave units unsupported so if one unit is assaulted, I walk the supporting unit backwards a bit, fire at something else if I'm able, and wait for the tarpit to die before rapid firing the assaulters.

Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

agnosto wrote:My idea was more a troop choice while yours seems more like an elite with them being a 'vre squad.

Shas'vre merely translates from Tau to "Fire Caste Hero" and Shas'el to "Fire caste Knight"

While Shazoooie would be a more DIRECT translation to Firewarrior veteran (as 'Ui means Veteran in "Firecastian") I went with Vre as they are heroes of the Tau Empire but as the Tau Empire follows its strict rules, they have not yet served long enough to be given the honors of a XV8/88 Battle-suit, and they were not trained to use XV2 suits, thus the lack of stealth-suits in my example.

That being said, what I listed would be a troops choice in the same sense that Veteran Guardsmen are considered troops. The are just about to become Elites/Heavy support/HQs but a majority of the squad just isnt there yet.

I did forget to add the option of Rail Rifles. Ill be adding that in a moment. I also intend on showing this to our Tau player and letting him play test this unit, my only "second thoughts" would be that the Firewarrior Shas'vre would not count towards the 1+ Firewarrior requirement and the squad itself would probably be a 0-1 (possibly 0-2) availability. If anyones interested I will probably make a thread about how it worked out in a few months of testing. (I also intend on having the dude test out the Kauyon/Mont'Ka rules)

On that Shas'vre: Definitely a Tau Elites choice. Or at very least a 0-1 Troops choice. Even by the description of them, they would be relatively rare, being neither normal Firewarriors nor Crisis/Stealth Suit pilots. As for mixing the unit with Suits, that seems awkward and ungainly. Tactically your squad would become limited. You are neither infantry nor light vehicle. Your infantry is hindered by the ungainly size of the suits and your suits are hindered by the light service of your infantry. And in general I think this is just a round about way of getting the same unit with BS4 and additional gear. Pointed correctly, no-one will take Firewarriors with a unit like this as the same unit option.

If it is a Troop (even 0-1) it will always be taken. If it is Elites, the minimum number of FW troops will be taken and as many of these taken instead (I can already see the half dozen threads Captain Solon would make to trade Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support, and even a the extra HQ so Tau can take more of these Shas'vre). Putting them in Elites would at least force players to make decisions; do I want Shas'vre or do I want X instead? But I think a 0-1 limit is a bare minimum both ways.

~

I will have our tau guy play test them at 0-1 and 0-2. Tested as troops. The suit limits the ability to take a transport, its also very expensive (as is the squad, you are spending 50% more the typical model cost for +1 BS +1LD optional weapons.) If 0-1 makes them too useless, then 0-2 will be tried, if 0-2 is overpowered, then 0-1 will be reassessed. Either way you still require at least 1 normal firewarrior squad as per normal Tau rules.

We will see if its good/bad/an interesting addition. I'll give a full report.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will have our tau guy play test them at 0-1 and 0-2. Tested as troops. The suit limits the ability to take a transport, its also very expensive (as is the squad, you are spending 50% more the typical model cost for +1 BS +1LD optional weapons.) If 0-1 makes them too useless, then 0-2 will be tried, if 0-2 is overpowered, then 0-1 will be reassessed. Either way you still require at least 1 normal firewarrior squad as per normal Tau rules.

We will see if its good/bad/an interesting addition. I'll give a full report.

Throw in a little sept diversity in regards to FW.

Farsight Enclave: Farsight FW can be upgrade to veterans at a cost of 2 pts per model. Veteran Farsight FWs get +1 to WS. They can also purchase close combat weapons at an additional X points per model.

Vior'la: Vior'la FW can be upgraded can be upgraded to veterans at a cost 2 pts per model. Veteran Vior'la FWs get +1 to BS.

Sa'cea: Sa'cea FW can gain furious charge for an extra X pts. per squad.

Just throwing that in there...

Skinnattittar wrote:Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

I thought you left the thread?

On the RAFP, nice concept but I think it's a bit busy for a one item upgrade and the RAFP won't appeal to the 12 year olds that GW caters to because it requires them to think and count (no offense to any 12yos in the audience). Possibly instead of RAFP allow the successful marker drone to allow rapid fire to maximum range for that turn or weapons get pinning that turn, even to units that are normally immune to pinning (since many are).

I agree that a veteran unit sounds like an elite or limited troop choice (0-1) but the elite choices we currently have are sparse, what type of suit do you want?

@tiberius,
sept specific rules would be cool, maybe have them linked to specific HQ choices like the marines and other armies; however, close combat rules are a waste on FWs because....well, they suck in close combat, so much so to the point where those USRs or equipment would be a waste.

I would like to see a Kroot special character; now that would be cool.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

I thought you left the thread?

On the RAFP, nice concept but I think it's a bit busy for a one item upgrade and the RAFP won't appeal to the 12 year olds that GW caters to because it requires them to think and count (no offense to any 12yos in the audience). Possibly instead of RAFP allow the successful marker drone to allow rapid fire to maximum range for that turn or weapons get pinning that turn, even to units that are normally immune to pinning (since many are).

I was struck by inspiration.

I decided that Pinning, in general, was a poor choice (in all seriousness, a single guy with a rifle on a battle field full of death and woe, bombs, bullets, and all other manner of fire, that single shot, to the head or otherwise, would probably go completely unnoticed the majority of the time), basically because I didn't want a last standing Firewarrior with a drone to be able to freeze a hypothetical mob of one million Fearless monsters of whom-ever (Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar, etc...), like so many broken rules GW has. So I invented a rather simple rule in practice.

Basically;
(Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

Roll 2D6, if 2D6 > N, unit may not move (volume of fire it too great). If 2D6 </= nothing happens, the unit is not pressured by the volume of fire. The minimum of 7 could be replaced with the unit's LD instead.

Fluff reasoning? coordinates the unit to fire a seemingly endless stream of firepower on a unit, either via a "talking guns" effect, or just a well organized barrage. It would be specific to Pulse Rifles due to the number of fire points a squad of Firewarriors creates.>

Flingit doesn't like his firewarriors to live once assaulted and defensive grenades negate the +1 attack from assault so betters the chances of an assaulted FW squad's survival.

Me? I'm all for the tarpit. I don't leave units unsupported so if one unit is assaulted, I walk the supporting unit backwards a bit, fire at something else if I'm able, and wait for the tarpit to die before rapid firing the assaulters.

Not that I want my FWs dead but I want to shoot at the assaulters. 12 FWs even with defensive grenades aren't going to tarpit anything and aren't going to survive more than 2 rounds of combat. All they'll do is maybe not break in the first round of combat (they'll still break most of the time thankfully) and then definitely break in the 2nd round (if not get totally wiped out after pile-ins) meaning your enemy if free to assault another unit and you've missed you chance you shoot them.

So the defensive grenades will at best do nothing at worse turn your firewarriors into a nice pillow for your enemies assault troops to hug during your shooting phase!!!

If you've ever played Tau you know defensive grenades are the worst thing that could possibly happen to your firewarriors except making them stubborn (yes Aun'Va I'm looking at you)!

As for the Shas'vre squad I don't think it is near OP and I doubt too many Tau players would be interested in eth squad as it stands. BS4 Firewarriors won't win you the game and you'd never take a unit if they were competing with Crisis teams for slots. As is they seem a lot of points for not alot of fire power unless you start mixing weapons in your squad which goes against Tau doctrine. And they have photon grenades too which is reason enough not to take them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
{quote](Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

No, the number of wounds is the sum of the wounds in the victim unit, not the number of wounds inflicted. So a five model unit of 2 Wound Nobs has 10 Wounds. Three Fire Warriors shoot at it, 3 shots. 10-3=7. In that case, 7 is the solution. However; 10 model unit of Ogryns, which have 3 Wounds each. 3(10)=30 Wounds. Twelve Fire Warriors shoot at the unit. 30-12=18. The large, beefy, and stern Ogryns are unperturbed and ignore the flurry of puny Fire Warrior light thingies. The Guard player will still lose the game, as they took a full squad of Ogryns.

The Guard player will still lose the game, as they took a full squad of Ogryns.

Not if the Tau player took Aun'Va!

Right now I get you when is the caculation made for numbers of wounds before or after the Tau shooting?

Skinnattittar wrote:
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

....

Basically;
(Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

Roll 2D6, if 2D6 > N, unit may not move (volume of fire it too great). If 2D6 </= nothing happens, the unit is not pressured by the volume of fire. The minimum of 7 could be replaced with the unit's LD instead.

Fluff reasoning? coordinates the unit to fire a seemingly endless stream of firepower on a unit, either via a "talking guns" effect, or just a well organized barrage. It would be specific to Pulse Rifles due to the number of fire points a squad of Firewarriors creates.>

So effectively, a squad of 12 firewarriors could permenantly keep an independant character/monsterous creature on its own (as I don't know any with 12+ wounds) stunlocked the entire game?

also

Skinnattittar wrote:
I decided that Pinning, in general, was a poor choice (in all seriousness, a single guy with a rifle on a battle field full of death and woe, bombs, bullets, and all other manner of fire, that single shot, to the head or otherwise, would probably go completely unnoticed the majority of the time)

Tell that to your typical infantry squad being pinned down by a single sniper even in such a confined area as a city street, let alone a wide open desert... Pinning is one of the VERY few rules that parallels a real world scenario. But as far as for this specific ruling is concerned(RAFP) pinning may not be an appropriate rule (Pulse carbines should not have pinning IMO... 'Chewbacca on Endor' logic )

@flingit, I like the discussion you're having regarding defensive grenades in the other thread. I've never taken them and probably never will, myself I was just trying to poke a little gentle fun at you with the "arr all my firewarriors must die!" comment.

Seriously though, and I know someone's mentioned this before; the easiest way to "fix" firewarriors is to make markerlights cheaper then being BS 4 becomes easier to obtain within existing rules.

Yeah I right off my FWs once someone assaults them at that point you just want the combat over in their turn so you can shoot the enemy. If yopu could take units of 30 FWs then you could tarpit but that's not really the Tau way.

If you could get them out of combat (as per the other threads ideas) that would be a serious boon. I think FWs need more core firepower or better range with their core fire power. Hence the ideas around extending he rapidfire range to 15" (and making Crabines assault 2 15").

Making markerlights move and fire would also help by giving you mobile markerlights you'd have more freedom to use them in more places whichout making your line static.

How about markerlights as a vehicle wargear and not just for the skyray anymore? I'm not sure but wouldn't it count as a defensive weapon so you could move and fire it?

@ FlingitNow : No, Ogryns are worse, and at the beginning of the shooting phase or turn of shooting (just like calculating casualties over a phase for Moral tests).

@ DAR : Well, being a soldier, I will have to disagree. If a unit is on patrol and there is only a sniper to deal with, yes, on such a small scale a sniper can pin a unit. But if you're in a battle, a single shot is barely noticed through the shear volume of fire that is occuring. Sniper-Pinning is one of the worst reflected things in 40k. Consider; one million Heavy Bolters firing on a unit of one billion what-evers, the result is just casualties. But if at some point a single sniper takes a shot at that unit.... In reality, with the million Heavy Bolters going off, nobody would effectively notice that single sniper. Even on smaller scales of a few HBs, your not going to go flat for security from the sniper, the HBs will be your bigger concern.

As for the Pulse-Rifles holding single models in stun lock? Yes, if the Character fails what is essentially a Leadership Test at 7 or their own Ld (depending on how it is written). I don't want a Leadership Test because, well, they're useless these days considering that almost everyone has an easy way around them; Space Mariners with "No Fear," Guard with Orders and Commissars, Orks with mobs, Chaos with Fearless, etc.... I have Sniper Rifles in all my squads these days and I'll get lucky to pin one unit a game for a single turn.

Consider if you suddenly find yourself under a massive volley of high-power rounds being flung at you at a constant, organized rate. You might consider finding something to hide behind or drop flat to. I know I would.

Yeah that would also help but we don't want the entire army to be ML toting! They are an essential boon but the army should do other stuff as well.

How about Devilfish becomes fast. Multitrakers count you as having moved 6" less for firing (rather than just fire as fast). For Skyrays and Hammerheads S5 becomes defensive but not for 'fish.

Pathfinders don't take Devilfish but Catfish (I don't think it makes sense for the catfish to have seeker missiles it should be calling them in from elsewhere):

Catfish 80 points
Front 12 Side 11 Rear 10 Bs4

Type: Tank, skimmer, fast

Equipement: Burst cannon, pair of Gun drones and a stealth field generator, Marker beacon, targeting array

Special rules: Infiltrate, Polyglass

Options: Catfish may take:
Multitraker - 10 pts
Disruption Pod - 15 pts
Flechette discharger - 10pts
Blacksun filter - 5pts
Decoy launchers - 5pts
Sensor Spines - 10pts

The catfish may exchange it gune drones for:
2 Burst cannons - Free
Smart Missile system - 10pts

Transports: 10 models.

Fire points: None however due to Polyglass vision slits on vehicle 4 models may fire marker lights out of the vehicle (usual restrictions apply).

Let us not turn this into a "How would you fix Tau" thread. Let's stay on the subject of just improving things closely related to the OP, okay, FlingitNow? We've argued this many a time before: Tau are cool, but they're not Gods. Let's dial it back, okay?

You think the transport is OP? Doesn't really do anything but transport pathfinders and allow them to shoot their MLs (on the other therad I was suggesting dorpping MLs to range 18" but making them assault which would work hand in hand with this vehicle).

Plus Ogryns are far better than Aun'Va. If you could take a squad of Ogryns for free would you?

I wouldn't take Aun'Va if he cost minus 100 points literally. Whilst Orgyns are not points effective they don't damage your army whilst they are alive and don't make your army run away when they die. Aun'Va does both to a Tau army and cost 205 points and won't kill anything all game...

I would prefer a erturn to eth days when leadership had an effect on the game though as Tau are the only army that seem to have to worry about leadership anymore (except Eldar who are Ld9 anyway).

As to the OP as was discussed at great length before I don't think an across the board BS bump is particularly fitting fo rthe Tau. Won't solve their problems and doesn;t really fit in with the fluff.

@ FlingitNow : I never said that explicitly, but I do not want to get into that discussion on this thread. I would love to work on the next Tau Codex, to be honest, even though I do not play Tau nor have I ever seriously played them (though I have played against many Tau armies, seen ever greater Tau battles, and heard Tau aftermath).

If we are to get off-topic, I would have no problem discussing things with you, FlingitNow (FiN). I have bumped heads with you many a time on the forums, and I consider you at very least not unreasonable.

If you just give everything a leadership bump I will be happy...
Seriously a group of Raging Fanatics ready to give their lives for "The Greater Good" are the worst leadership army other than IG(who get Commissars to bump up leadership) I mean seriously Ethereals don't do enough(Especially Aun'Va) Really I dont think Tau Fire Warriors need a BS bump but everything needs a leadership bump.

I consider you at very least not unreasonable.

Shucks you'll make me blush...

But I do think we agree an across the board BS bump isn't really fitting with eth Tau nor really addressing their issues.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:If you just give everything a leadership bump I will be happy...
Seriously a group of Raging Fanatics ready to give their lives for "The Greater Good" are the worst leadership army other than IG(who get Commissars to bump up leadership) I mean seriously Ethereals don't do enough(Especially Aun'Va) Really I dont think Tau Fire Warriors need a BS bump but everything needs a leadership bump.

I don't think a FW leadership bump would be good, it seems most Tau players who play Tau well (ie I don't consistently massacred them) want their FW to break and run in cc if by some miracle they aren't wiped. I know as an Ork player I love to get locked in in cc with Tau for a turn.

I don't think a FW leadership bump would be good, it seems most Tau players who play Tau well (ie I don't consistently massacred them) want their FW to break and run in cc if by some miracle they aren't wiped. I know as an Ork player I love to get locked in in cc with Tau for a turn.

Yeah and this is why we don't want defensive grenades either.

A voluntary re-roll is far better we don't want to berak from shooting damage but man do we want to break from CC!! Something that helps us avoid or run away from combat (even at the risk of being swept) is what we want.

Read the fluff. The Tau are not natural warriors, they are just a stoic race that tries really hard.

That being said BS3 is the achilles heel of the Tau army. The solution is simple, improve pathfinders.

Give pathfinders 2 options for 2 types of tactics

Option #1: No devilfish, but they have infiltrate and stealth universal special rules.

Option #2: They come with a devilfish, and gain the scouts and stealth universal special rules.

Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

schadenfreude wrote:
Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

That makes PF worse, though, as they go from 50% to hit per model, to 75% per 2 models - a decrease of 14.5% in markerlight hits per models.


(I'd say option 1, and allow them to buy a DF if they want to)

BS 4 will make them overpowered. simply improve markerlights!

schadenfreude wrote:Read the fluff. The Tau are not natural warriors, they are just a stoic race that tries really hard.

That being said BS3 is the achilles heel of the Tau army. The solution is simple, improve pathfinders.

Give pathfinders 2 options for 2 types of tactics

Option #1: No devilfish, but they have infiltrate and stealth universal special rules.

Option #2: They come with a devilfish, and gain the scouts and stealth universal special rules.

Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

I must admit it does work well with the Fluff. All i have to say is that Crisis suits need improved BS, how can a mech manned by a veteran soldier not have better aim than the new guy thats not in a mech suit? -_-

How about a new turret for the skyray that provides the benefit of a targeting array to friendly Tau units within 12"?

Not crazy about the PFs having a heavy team as they're supposed to be ninja-like in their ability to stalk prey; not clumping around carrying tons of gear.

I'm all for more/better markerlights even though it's always irked me a bit that the entire army is dependant upon hitting something on a 4+ with an item that does no damage in and of itself.

Blind wrote:I must admit it does work well with the Fluff. All i have to say is that Crisis suits need improved BS, how can a mech manned by a veteran soldier not have better aim than the new guy thats not in a mech suit? -_-

Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Skinnattittar wrote:Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Fluffwise? Page 34 in the codex, "They are experienced fighters who have fought the deadliest foes and triumphed. Their loyalty and skill is beyond question..."

I don't know about you but I would expect the best of the best to be better at just about everything than your regular PFC; realworld comparison of Navy Seals or Delta to ground pounding army grunts (not that they don't have their place). Now, take that comparison and then look at their stats; remove the crisis suit and the only bonus they get for being the best of the best is a 1 point leadership bump.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Fluffwise? Page 34 in the codex, "They are experienced fighters who have fought the deadliest foes and triumphed. Their loyalty and skill is beyond question..."

I don't know about you but I would expect the best of the best to be better at just about everything than your regular PFC; realworld comparison of Navy Seals or Delta to ground pounding army grunts (not that they don't have their place). Now, take that comparison and then look at their stats; remove the crisis suit and the only bonus they get for being the best of the best is a 1 point leadership bump.

When did Delta Force become the best shooters in the galaxy? I'm a regular ground pounder and I score very well on the range, and I know some Spec. For. that can't shoot nearly as well as some POGs.

That aside, skill is relative to an attribute. It doesn't say. Now we can assume they are superior in shooting, but enough to make it to BS4? We can try and compare it to Guard Vets, but Guard doesn't have anything like Crisis Suit units in stats or fluff. Sentinels make a close approach, and they are only BS3 (they too, are often described as being elite Guardsmen, though the IG doesn't select Sentinel Crew from the ranks of marching boots).

For one its a suit, last i checked, robotics worked with hydraulics and gears, those can lock in place and take much more abuse than a tender fish arm can. The driver knows how to aim but the suit does it for them. As for hopping around, they can fire while in air as depicted in all pictures regarding them, along side the sensored helmets and small sights placed on guns, I'd imagine that they are robotics assisted in aiming, the only reason they aren't bs4 at the moment ( or was in 4th atleast) is to even the playing field so crisis suit dont totally own, not an issue of driver inexperience....

ooh new thought lol:
Space marines, for the most part are genetically designed, their full potential is basically already known and calculated. Tau are not, and so certain individuals can rise above the rest, skill for Marines is irrelevant as its pre-determined, for Tau, it is not. And to say skill has no bearing is just ridiculous, skill may be just a summation for better understanding or better reflexes but either way its an advantage on others in certain things

Blind wrote:For one its a suit, last i checked, robotics worked with hydraulics and gears, those can lock in place and take much more abuse than a tender fish arm can. The driver knows how to aim but the suit does it for them. As for hopping around, they can fire while in air as depicted in all pictures regarding them, along side the sensored helmets and small sights placed on guns, I'd imagine that they are robotics assisted in aiming, the only reason they aren't bs4 at the moment ( or was in 4th atleast) is to even the playing field so crisis suit dont totally own, not an issue of driver inexperience....

Ah, I see. So with all that high tech gear, it doesn't really matter who is behind the trigger? Or does experience with the equipment have to matter? Either it does or it doesn't, and from all the fluff I have seen posted here, Tau are taking experienced boots (which are not reflected as having BS4, unless I'm missing something?) out of their familiar environments and putting them into something completely new to their experience? Sounds like they're taking an old hat and turning it green all over again..... I'm not saying Tau are inept or anything, but if GW didn't think "hey, these guys are the vets, shouldn't they have BS4?" then that means they thought of a reason not to. Considering some reasonable logical deductions (earlier in my post), maybe that is also what they had in mind.

Now, I'm not saying BS4 Crisis Suits isn't unreasonable. But don't flambe pollock and tell me it's salmon (damn Germans!).

Skinnattittar wrote:.

That aside, skill is relative to an attribute. It doesn't say. Now we can assume they are superior in shooting, but enough to make it to BS4? We can try and compare it to Guard Vets, but Guard doesn't have anything like Crisis Suit units in stats or fluff. Sentinels make a close approach, and they are only BS3 (they too, are often described as being elite Guardsmen, though the IG doesn't select Sentinel Crew from the ranks of marching boots).

We all can't be Gunny Hathcock can we? I do love my 30-06.

They should be better than the other ground pounders being an elite slot and all.
I dunno, the IG codex doesn't say anything about the pilots being anything special (page 45 in the IG codex); the only thing I saw was something about them being considered to be "hotshot mavericks". Is there any fluff elsewhere that would collaborate your statement? The closest unit that could find similar wording for was under veterans. Crisis suits pilots are proven veterans of several campaigns.

I agree that firewarriors shouldn't have a BS4 but there is definitely an argument for the outright elite force of an army to be better at their job than green grunts that just made it through boot. I guess I just let my personal experice color things a bit because to me Shas'uis are similar to gunny sergeants to me and a hard-bitten gunny is worth 10 recruits (to hear them talk they're worth 100).

It's nice to postulate on this stuff but I'm genuinely curious what changes GW will make. I enjoy seeing all the codexes and the updates are exciting, even for armies I don't play.

I just said that crisis suits aren't bs 4 for balance purposes.....

Im talking fluff here, and I also stated that it does in fact take an experienced gunman, the suit simple holds it for them, providing steady aim! oh like whats useful when "bunny" hopping around. While myself and others are making sense here, your jumping from one extreme to the next. Now not that either of use have controlled a mech suit before (unless your that experienced around here) we have no idea how its controlled, being as advanced as they are, I imagine that its just like moving your regular body so the movements are fluid and natural. Again, being a vet they can handle thier gun and know the moves, since thats second nature they can move on to more advanced things like a suit, so its just one thing to focus on. Not like pulling a trigger has changed any
oh, and if you burn the fish enough, you cant tell the difference, enjoy your salmon sir.

Edit: sorry trying to fix spelling issues, im typing with a broken pinkie lol

Blind wrote:I just said that crisis suits aren't bs 4 for balance purposes.....

Im talking fluff here, and I also stated that it does in fact take an experienced gunman, the suit simple holds it for them, providing steady aim! oh like whats useful when "bunny" hopping around. While myself and others are making sense here, your jumping from one extreme to the next. Now not that either of use have controlled a mech suit before (unless your that experienced around here) we have no idea how its controlled, being as advanced as they are, I imagine that its just like moving your regular body so the movements are fluid and natural. Again, being a vet they can handle thier gun and know the moves, since thats second nature they can move on to more advanced things like a suit, so its just one thing to focus on. Not like pulling a trigger has changed any
oh, and if you burn the fish enough, you cant tell the difference, enjoy your salmon sir.

Edit: sorry trying to fix spelling issues, im typing with a broken pinkie lol

Well then by those assumptions, they should be BS10. I mean, I've only piloted a handful of Crisis suits, and considering that I'm not a Tau, my experience couldn't be of too much use. But I distinctly remember the whole thing was controlled by bubblegum chewing and errant body projections. There actually wasn't any tech on the inside, mostly just a lot of buff and polish to make people think it was advanced. Turns out, Crisis suits operate on dumb luck!

Stupidity aside, making one assumption or the other actually does nothing when you know just as much. You say they're super advanced and BS4+, I say Tau are so blind and over confident they're BS1. Since neither is held up by actual fluff or fact, we have to run with what we do know.

In the realm of logical examination, where we don't make wild assumptions to support our hypothesis (what we consider to be true), we can compare how technology assists crews. In WWII Sherman Tanks and Airial Bombers had gyroscopic sighting systems. When sitting still, they did nothing much to improve the accuracy of the crews over regular scope sights, but when on the move, they greatly increased the accuracy of the user. We still use similar technology today (while where then it was mostly analog, today we use mostly digital). Taking that example and imposing it on a fictional universe, we can make an inference (rather than an assumption) that their tech does something similar. Since we "know" that by some fluff your unassisted Firewarrior has inferior ballistic abilities than your typical Guardsmen, their scopes and sights are what put them on even ground. Now put those Firewarriors in high tech suits, from a stationary position, yes, that extra bit of tech could boost their shooting abilities. But now get them hopping around as they do.... well even technology can't make you a sure shot (or else they would be BS10 as the fluff goes, as would Space Marines and perhaps even Guardsmen with more advanced equipment).

Further fluff reasons for why suits should have BS 4: pg 33, Ethereal--Veteran Honour Guard

"...may be accompanied by an Honour Guard of Veteran Fire Warriors who have chosen to forgo the normal progression to battlesuit pilot and then Commander."

They get BS 4.

Combined with the fluff already mentioned on pg 34, I see no reason why suits should not have BS 4 standard, since apparently the Veteran Honour Guard FWs are pretty much the same guys, but with no suits.

Actually the fluff does support that they are technologically advanced and unafraid of it unlike the imperium, it also says that although they take longer to focus at greater distances than humans, they have great vision.
Your just factoring scopes here though, the Tau suits aren't seeing with tau eyes through a scope, the head of the suit is not where the driver is, sensors and cameras see for them, I'd INFER by todays tech, a good example being the cameras mounted on autonomous drones and aircraft of today, that a Tau suit , which is in fact advanced, can easily track and shoot in mid-air and handle movement very well. Otherwise the GW art itself is lying and we might as well mount crisis suit guns on a devilfish and get better results
As stated before, once again, I said the experienced driver does the shooting, the suit simply holds the gun steady.....
And also again, from one extreme to the next, first the tau arent supported by fluff to do it then it should be bs 10 if it is?
Space marines have power armour, so they are stronger and quicker, they dont have whats considered highly advanced tech in it as I'm aware due to the technology stigma that is throughout the Imperium. The Tau do not hold this stigma and why should they? We dont want another imperium in the game, theres enough human runoffs as is. Although, why should a sm get a bs upgrade? they are already one of the most powerful troop options to begin with, with boosted bs for vets, you might as well quit and call it Warhammer Imperium....

Black Antelope wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

That makes PF worse, though, as they go from 50% to hit per model, to 75% per 2 models - a decrease of 14.5% in markerlight hits per models.


(I'd say option 1, and allow them to buy a DF if they want to)

It depends on cost. If the cost of each team was 16 points per team of 2 the cost per markerlight hit would be the same. Squad size could then be increased to 6 teams/12 pathfinders.

Actually if you read the fluff, Fire Warriors are natural warriors, bred for war during generations of savage internecine conflict. They are by core nature far more warlike and predatory than any other faction.

SMs get it by brainwashing.
Chaos ditto.
Tyranids revert to instinctive behaviour when let off the leash.
Orks were made for fightan and the flawed design process reduced a lot of their other characteristics such as tactical awareness.
Eldar take it up as a hobby.

Tau Fire Warriors are unique as an intelligent class which has been evolved physically, mentally and socially to wage war as their primary function.

Just a point of view, of course.

@ Killkrazy : Compare them to the average human; sociopath hairless apes. The Imperium of Man exists in 40k solely because it has been pushed to the edge of destruction via war countless times, tested again and again not just from enemies without, but also within. So perhaps by Tau standards, Firewarriors are bio-engineered warriors, but humanity has earned its position by the unforgiving bastard that is Charles Darwin (with a fair degree of bio-engineering as well). So while a Space Marine is also physically and mentally engineered as a perfect warrior, they come from the best warrior stock of a warrior race in a species of warriors.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tau are warriors in the same way that the Japanese were warriors: idealistic.

tiberius183 wrote:
"...may be accompanied by an Honour Guard of Veteran Fire Warriors who have chosen to forgo the normal progression to battlesuit pilot and then Commander."

They get BS 4.

I think they key word there may be commander. Commander battlesuits do have BS 4 (and then 5). Personally I agree with the idea that Crisis suits should have BS 4 standard though.

For clarification, sm are not perfect soldiers, they are big meat sacks carrying bigger guns and swords that vibrate, not perfect, otherwise they wouldnt need SOOO many freakin sm to do the job

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Killkrazy : Compare them to the average human; sociopath hairless apes. The Imperium of Man exists in 40k solely because it has been pushed to the edge of destruction via war countless times, tested again and again not just from enemies without, but also within. So perhaps by Tau standards, Firewarriors are bio-engineered warriors, but humanity has earned its position by the unforgiving bastard that is Charles Darwin (with a fair degree of bio-engineering as well). So while a Space Marine is also physically and mentally engineered as a perfect warrior, they come from the best warrior stock of a warrior race in a species of warriors.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tau are warriors in the same way that the Japanese were warriors: idealistic.

Not at all. Humans are nearly all non-warriors who survived by a great deal of different non-military techniques.

The Fire Caste are not bio-engineered, they are evolved as warriors though thousands of years of hunting and conflict.

I think the codex should stay the same entirely....

and the fact that you people were arguing over BS4 earlier makes no sense. That's what marker lights are for, do you people not read unit entrys? Plus there would be no Fire warriors with BS4 because fire warriors are the lowest of the warriors int he army. They're like imperial guardsmen but with better weapons and therefore no need for a heavy bolter (their pulse rifles have as much strength as heavy bolters anyway) or autocannon or whatever you want. That's what the battlesuits are for which are veteran fire warriors. You could argue that they have BS 3 because they are only starting to use their suits anyways, and if you wanted to give them BS4 then give them the targetting array. Even then they could still have their multi-tracker and a few other options from the hard-wired equipment which you can take as much of those as you like.

If you want firewarriors with a good BS you could buy them a sergeant. Give the sergeant a markerlight and the hard-wired drone controller. Give them a marker drone like you're supposed to to give them BS 4/5 and then if the unit stays still like a firewarrior unit usually would unless you have a mechanized rush list going then it would get 3 markerlight shots down on an enemy. Albeit the fact that this is expensive, that is how it is supposed to be.

grayspark wrote:I think the codex should stay the same entirely....

and the fact that you people were arguing over BS4 earlier makes no sense. That's what marker lights are for, do you people not read unit entrys? Plus there would be no Fire warriors with BS4 because fire warriors are the lowest of the warriors int he army. They're like imperial guardsmen but with better weapons and therefore no need for a heavy bolter (their pulse rifles have as much strength as heavy bolters anyway) or autocannon or whatever you want. That's what the battlesuits are for which are veteran fire warriors. You could argue that they have BS 3 because they are only starting to use their suits anyways, and if you wanted to give them BS4 then give them the targetting array. Even then they could still have their multi-tracker and a few other options from the hard-wired equipment which you can take as much of those as you like.

If you want firewarriors with a good BS you could buy them a sergeant. Give the sergeant a markerlight and the hard-wired drone controller. Give them a marker drone like you're supposed to to give them BS 4/5 and then if the unit stays still like a firewarrior unit usually would unless you have a mechanized rush list going then it would get 3 markerlight shots down on an enemy. Albeit the fact that this is expensive, that is how it is supposed to be.

Other then the fact that we moved on from FW having bs 4, which they shouldnt; your going to say that all veterans are new to thier suit? really? The tau are new but they have expanded into space, albeit a small region, but far from possible for all suits to be new guys, something that generalized can be used on Sm, oh they are just getting used to the new power Armour and new brain. The thing is, for a veteran unit such as the crisis suit, you shouldnt need to pump in another 10 points to get a boosted BS, whats the point of a shooty army thats elites arent even better shots? more survivable definitely but in melee armies, veterans are better at melee, why cant the Tau get better? Tau is really the middle priced army, not too expensive not too cheap, they are not a high priced army and so high priced units wont work very well unless they DO come with better BS

So you like having worthless HQ choices like BS3 bodyguard and Ehterals and worthless fast attack like Vespid. Ok, by all means continue to play with the 4E book when the new one comes out.

Personally, if you had read the entire thread, I feel that most of us are fine with the run of the mill FW having a BS of 3. It's the elite choices that need to be better IMHO.

Even orks have better dependability than the entire shooting segment depending on how many 4+ markerlight hits you get. That's my grief with markerlights.

Other then the fact that we moved on from FW having bs 4, which they shouldnt; your going to say that all veterans are new to thier suit? really? The tau are new but they have expanded into space, albeit a small region, but far from possible for all suits to be new guys, something that generalized can be used on Sm, oh they are just getting used to the new power Armour and new brain. The thing is, for a veteran unit such as the crisis suit, you shouldnt need to pump in another 10 points to get a boosted BS, whats the point of a shooty army thats elites arent even better shots? more survivable definitely but in melee armies, veterans are better at melee, why cant the Tau get better? Tau is really the middle priced army, not too expensive not too cheap, they are not a high priced army and so high priced units wont work very well unless they DO come with better BS

sorry about the fact that we apparently moved on from it, I just clicked on the thing and didn't go to page 2 or 3...

and the "veterans" for the battlesuits are the bodyguard for the Shas'o/el and I'm pretty sure they have BS4

Also most lists don't have veterans that are better at shooting.
let's list em out
Orks/Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines/Tau/Necrons

basically all of them. it's for balance purposes. I don't see why everybody is whining about it going on about how unfair/unbalanced it is (earlier in the article, afraid I haven't read further than the first page and I thought the first page was the only page).

All of their weapons besides the Kroot rifles are already STR 5, what more do you want? They're already friggin strong.

I have a Tau army and I've played Tau armies and let me say, if you use them correctly you'll do great. even if you spend that extra "10 points" you're crying about they aren't an expensive army. That 10 points right there just makes them a lot more versatile for only 10 points. It's like having an Imperial Guard special weapons Team that is BS4 (with array), can move 12" a turn, or even jump back into cover, has 2 weapons each, and can fire them both.
I've even done it before where I make both weapons twin-linked and then give them a shield generator and that works fantastic too.

overall people shouldn't cry about it


EDIT: actually the only thing I would complain about would be the Pathfinders having only BS3. They're supposed to be using precision targeting equipment and yet they only have BS3? But when they pick up the ever-useless railrifle they get BS 4? Then again it isn't a Codex if some parts of it are weak...

A strong gun is only good if it hits.... and who's crying? if defending my belief is crying then this forums a flood gate of tears. Crisis suits are great, i think we all understand this, from a totally removed view on balance though, wouldn't you think that a veteran manned suit would have better aim than the run of the mill soldier? Just odd, that and crisis suits are the only consistently good elite option imo.

I agree about the pf though, does seem odd that the group designed to improve accuracy cant shoot well on its own.

and the "veterans" for the battlesuits are the bodyguard for the Shas'o/el and I'm pretty sure they have BS4

No BS3

Also most lists don't have veterans that are better at shooting.
let's list em out
Orks/Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

All these are CC focused armies and their veterans are better in CC.

All of their weapons besides the Kroot rifles are already STR 5, what more do you want? They're already friggin strong.

We want them to hit, we want eth army to be balanced with the other armies in the game. IG out shoot us and out assault us. SM can match our shooting and out assault us. Sisters (a really old codex) can out shoot and out assault us!!

We are the only army totally dependant on never reaching combat (IG can tarpit or even win wars of attrition in CC, all other armies can assault well) yet we aren't even the best shots or even the most mobile shots (IG now match our mobility).

That 10 points right there just makes them a lot more versatile for only 10 points. It's like having an Imperial Guard special weapons Team that is BS4 (with array), can move 12" a turn, or even jump back into cover, has 2 weapons each, and can fire them both.

Not erally that much mroe vesatile just slightly less dependant on the unreliable MLs. And if you're taking a TA you can't fire 2 weapons as only team leaders can take hardwired stuff.

I've even done it before where I make both weapons twin-linked and then give them a shield generator and that works fantastic too.

Expensive 1 gun platform that is still not that survivable.

overall people shouldn't cry about it

Not crying just pointing out with eth possible exception of the Necrons the Tau are by far the weakest army out there. An army totally dependant on avoiding combat in a game where most people can assault you on turn 1 just doesn;t work unless their shooting is devastating (which would just make the game boring) or they gain new tactics and methods to avoid combat.

FlingitNow wrote:Not crying just pointing out with eth possible exception of the Necrons the Tau are by far the weakest army out there. An army totally dependant on avoiding combat in a game where most people can assault you on turn 1...

Which happened when I went up against new codex BA (and 2/3 of my stuff got slaughtered by the end of turn 2)...

New Codices barely count for such purposes. A lot of people are still crying the new IG codex is cheese. People just haven't adjusted to it yet. Those that have (and there are a great many) find them just as vulnerable as they were before, just more mobile and actually competitive due to their new volume.

No the codex didnt kill us, the new rules, added chargin abilities and sprinting (or running w/e its called) is whats doing it, the new codicies are just tailored to best fit the new rules.

Kill Tau? The Tau aren't dead.... yeah, they now have the honor of holding the "Most Skilled" army, but that hardly means they're "broken" or "dead." Imperial Guard held that honor for damn near fifteen years! People kept buying and playing them though.

Kill being a figure of speech, as in whats bothering us most, not that its dead. Im still playing aren't I? yup. Tau will be updated by 2013 im sure

Blind wrote:Kill being a figure of speech, as in whats bothering us most, not that its dead. Im still playing aren't I? yup. Tau will be updated by 2013 im sure

Quit being so optimistic and get with reality. 2525, if mankind is still alive.

MY fix for firewarriors?

no, not bs4.

rather, let them get rending (for shooting only) for one shooting phase if you expend 2 markerlights on them, to represent enemy weak points lighting up on their HUDS and being sniped at for massive damage.

oh, and make the carbine assault 2 18'' or something so people actually take it. make it cost a couple points or something to take.

rending? that's kind of overpowered...

and the carbine seems fine to me. It does pin afterall.

Fantastic in cities of death or if you're ultra rushing with tanks.

and the carbine seems fine to me. It does pin afterall.

And what is actually effected by pinning? No one ever takes the carbine for a reason.

Pinning can be effective against low LD armies like orks. Its a good way to slow Nobz down.

Pinning can be effective against low LD armies like orks.

Yes pinning is very effective againt fearless armies like Orks... Sorry what?!?!

Its a good way to slow Nobz down.

In my experience Nobz come in 3 flavours - in a transport in mega-armour (or both) or on a bike none of which are particularly worried about pulse carbines all of which are lead by a Warboos with Ld9.

Pinning is next to useless against Orks. It only really effects other Tau and IG neither of which are that worried about pinning.

Especially since Guard have orders which give you a second chance to Get Back in the Fight! Every now and again you can get Space Marines to take cover....

Every now and again you can get Space Marines to take cover....

Yeah until they choose to fail their break test and then auto-rally... Plus with Ld9 and 3+ save it will not exactly be a regular occurance.

Whilst pinning is not entirely useless it isn't much of an advantage and certainly doesn't make the Carbines even worth considering.

The next Tau codex will be out from one to two years before the 6th edition comes out and invalidates it.

@ Killkrazy,
Too true. It's GW's way of telling us to have more than one army.

pinning is useless as many armies are sm or fearless or have some funky special rule like the guard. The only army pinning is effective against is eldar in my opinion, or sisters of battle.

Well, look, here's my thing. Grots get BS3. GROTS! Do you really think Firewarriors should be equal in skill to GROTS?

That's all from me.

Solorg, BS4

You see, Solorg, you're now going to get a bunch of messages about how poor Tau vision is and how they can't react to movement...blah blah blah.

Solorg wrote:Well, look, here's my thing. Grots get BS3. GROTS! Do you really think Firewarriors should be equal in skill to GROTS?

That's all from me.

Solorg, BS4

Increase them to BS4 and people will be complaining they are as good as SMs.

agnosto wrote:You see, Solorg, you're now going to get a bunch of messages about how poor Tau vision is and how they can't react to movement...blah blah blah.

Or about how Guardsmen are also BS3, and Eldar Guardians (who's technology is superior to the Tau), and Space Marine Scouts, and.... the list goes on. Unfortunately, Grots are more likely the exception than the rule. And what would be the argument against Grots having BS3 when Boyz have BS2? It's more fluffy and fun that Grots are better shots! There was once a bit of fluff about how Grots are actually the superiors to Orks in all ways by physically, and were intended to be the leaders of Orks (and that Thraka actually had a "pet" Grot that he got all his good ideas from), but Orks were like "bah, liddle blabber mowf's dunt no wats gurt for dem. Weez da big 'uns, weez tell 'em wats ta du!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:

Every now and again you can get Space Marines to take cover....

Yeah until they choose to fail their break test and then auto-rally... Plus with Ld9 and 3+ save it will not exactly be a regular occurance.
Whilst pinning is not entirely useless it isn't much of an advantage and certainly doesn't make the Carbines even worth considering.

Why such a jumpy negative Nancy, FlingitNow? I say "Every now and again..." I didn't mean, "Space Marines are constantly getting totally pwned by Pinning Checks, Tau are totally fine without anything in their next Codex!" Just dial it back a bit, man.

Solorg wrote:Well, look, here's my thing. Grots get BS3. GROTS! Do you really think Firewarriors should be equal in skill to GROTS?

That's all from me.

Solorg, BS4

I thought you were joking but other people seem to be taking you seriously - were you joking?

Because a grot can fire one round out to 12", a firewarrior can fire twice out to the range. So the firewarrior is twice as skilled, before you account for his ability to fire out to a full 30", 2.5 times as far as a grot.

Why such a jumpy negative Nancy, FlingitNow? I say "Every now and again..." I didn't mean, "Space Marines are constantly getting totally pwned by Pinning Checks, Tau are totally fine without anything in their next Codex!" Just dial it back a bit, man.

Fair enough I'd been responding to someone who thought pinning was good and made Carbines fine and that Tau don't need new stuff in their codex.

Didn't mean to jump down your throught

Kilkrazy wrote:

Solorg wrote:Well, look, here's my thing. Grots get BS3. GROTS! Do you really think Firewarriors should be equal in skill to GROTS?

That's all from me.

Solorg, BS4

Increase them to BS4 and people will be complaining they are as good as SMs.

Sounds to me like they should just make a sort of middle ground. BS3.5 (For eldar guardians, Tau, Baneblades (and other IG tanks that are BS3) scouts etc... this would show that while other things out there with BS 3 are better then Grots (because CLEARLY grots are just like, the worst shots ever) and this could be represented in rules that would say, when firing at Half Range, the squad is BS 4. Any more then half range, bs 3.... this would totally make more sense then dropping grotts to BS2...

Keep them BS3 and improve some other stuff within the existing framework of core rules.

For instance, allow any model with a drone controller to take any type of drone.

Make all drones count as jump infantry jetpack so they get Relentless. That let's any unit move and shoot markerlight drones. (Alternatively, make markerlights Assault.)

Invent a couple of new drones, such as a close defence drone which fires Flechettes and optical grenades at anyone assaulting the owning unit.

That way any Fire Warrior unit has the options to get better at shooting or better at resisting assaults or a bit of both.

unless I'm incredibly misinformed... aren't drones already jetpack and therefore relentless?

Mr 4 Strings wrote:unless I'm incredibly misinformed... aren't drones already jetpack and therefore relentless?

Drone are the same unit type as the unit their attached to (IIRC), so FW squads w/ Marker Drones cannot move and shoot them.

Black Antelope wrote:

Mr 4 Strings wrote:unless I'm incredibly misinformed... aren't drones already jetpack and therefore relentless?

Drone are the same unit type as the unit their attached to (IIRC), so FW squads w/ Marker Drones cannot move and shoot them.

Page 31 of Tau Codex

Drones:

[blah blah blah]

Unit Type:
As Owner

FlingitNow wrote:

Pinning can be effective against low LD armies like orks.

Yes pinning is very effective againt fearless armies like Orks... Sorry what?!?!

Its a good way to slow Nobz down.

In my experience Nobz come in 3 flavours - in a transport in mega-armour (or both) or on a bike none of which are particularly worried about pulse carbines all of which are lead by a Warboos with Ld9.

Pinning is next to useless against Orks. It only really effects other Tau and IG neither of which are that worried about pinning.

Not every ork unit is fearless. Its expensive to make nobz fearless, and a warboss easily can cost you 100pt. And five biker nobz can cost you twice what a squad of fire warriors will. I would argue that it is easier to make 9 nobz fail a LD check then to kill 9 Nobz before they get to you; especially bikers. I'm not saying that it makes fire warriors with carbines good, it makes pinning not useless.

18" is past my comfort zone though, so many units have ridiculous charge and assault options it seems, I just feel the risks out weigh the pros and I dont want to build a carbine armed squad

I would argue that it is easier to make 9 nobz fail a LD check then to kill 9 Nobz before they get to you

True but you get 1 turn of shooting with eth carbines befoer they get to you with the rulse rifle you could get 2-3 and one of those in double tap range mean 4-5 shots compared to 1. So you're morelikely to stop them with 4-5 shots than make them fail an LD test (which will only give you 1 extra shot to stop them so you're still 2-3 shots) with 1 shot...

Not saying pinning is entirely useless just not a huge benefit, Nobz are massive overkill against FWs anyway to be honest the large Boyz mobs that can multi-assault large chunks of my army are a more pressing concern.

I am a Tau player who started under 4th edition RB and it is unfortunate that 5th edtion RB and Codex's are causing difficulty to army lists and somethings are broken.

I believe the BS of 4 for all Tau Race is undoubtedly Over Powered.
I propose the Idea of giving veterns what they earned through Trial by Fire.

EX. If I have firewarriors or pathfinders and upgrade the Unit with a Shas'ui Team Leader I believe as some people have mentioned that he should gain +1 to BS. Gaining a +1 to Attacks does nothing when your already the worst assault unit in the game. Keep the Shas'la firewarriors at 3 BS because they are new recruits and not as seasoned as other warriors.

EX. If I have Battlesuits (XV8, XV88, XV23, XV15)the Shas'ui battlesuit should remain BS 3 because they are new to the path as battlesuit pilots and not as skilled in piloting, however Shas'vre are more veteran suits and should be at BS 4.

That makes the team leaders more accurate and makes markerlights more attractive to Tau players

Seems like to many people want tau to be IG.

But I would like their suits to get BS4 I mean surely a high technology suit can aim a little better with all that equipment then just the normal eye.

Solorg wrote:Well, look, here's my thing. Grots get BS3. GROTS! Do you really think Firewarriors should be equal in skill to GROTS?

That's all from me.

Solorg, BS4

Because Grots actually care to aim. Orks are BS2 because they don't try to aim. Tau are BS2 because they can't aim.

Old thread is old.