On assault terminators, wich work better, and against what kind of enemy (TEQ, MEQ. GEQ)

Well, all my Assault Termies have the th/ss combo;
storm shields soak up wounds so that the squad stays intact before it strikes back.

The ones I play against usually have a mix. LCs to thin the ranks, TH/SS to finish them off. The wound distribution depends on initiative order, what remains needing to be killed, and strength of the attack.

What Skarboy said. I hate seeing a mix across the table. If they are only TH/SS a dedicated assualt unit can usually kill a few before they swing and lop 6-9 attacks off their total. If they are all dual LC some plasma lovin is comin their way. A mix ... neither works well as the TH soak up the ap2 hits and theLC thin the ranks becasue if you go before init 5 TH/SS are taking the wounds, and if you go at init 4 or less you are in for a seriuos hurting at both init 4 and init 1. Untis of 7 + character(vulcan, cassius, etc) seem to rock face and take names. If they get to the middle of the board ... it takes your whole army to knock them out, if you have a whole army left by that point that is...

I tend to run all SS/TH, but I play against a lot of Eldar, which means the I is rarely an issue for me anyway.

I have a huge unit of 10, 5x with TH/SS and 5x w/LCs. When they combat squad, they are always mixed. Generally, if I was to use a 5 man group, I would usually take 3 TH/SS and 2 2xLCs.

I usually do a six man squad 3 with lighten claws and 3with hammer and SS, its give me balance on what i want to do and also provided me with some ap 2 protections on the way there....lo.l

I was just pondering this. I have a box of Assault Termies sitting in my hobby drawer waiting to be built right now. I am going to magnetize those suckers up so I can do either, but my initial inclination was to use 4x LC and 1x TH/SS.

Isn't it much better to do 3 TH/SS and 2 LC?

Maybe. I guess i'll find out soon.

True. i don't have any exp. about them anyway, i just have the rulebook and codex, so you're quite possibly right

definitely 3x hammer 2x claw.

A mix, leaning heavily on the TH/SS side (so like 4/3 or 5/2, etc) is pretty good with any of the new marine codicies.

If you're running old marines like DA or BT, then take more LCs. 4+ Invul in CC only is kind of laughable compared to the perma 3+ invul. Though still nice I suppose.

3+ is awesome. especially with an enemy with lots of ap 2+ it makes taking a beating from heavy weapons much esier to survive

My default load is 3 TH/SS and 2 LC. Keeps options open and gives a chance to play with wound allocation. Full "hammer time" comes into question when facing an enemy with lots of available AP 1 or 2 weapons ( IG guns and Tyranid monsters ).

TH/SS

What are LC's primarily good against? Light infantry. What else is good against light infantry? Oh, right, all those frikkin' bolters you brought with you.

The point of terminators isnt' their damage output (as you could put out a lot more damage for the same amount of points by taking other things in your list), it is that they're neigh-on indestructible. They deepstrike on an objective and then laugh as your opponents attempt to dislodge them. What helps with this? Storm Shields.

With LCs you're taking your best objective camping units and forcing them to run around and chase bolter fodder. With the TH/SS they are more durable and able to handle the things that bolters can't.

In recent battles against I'v had against terminator heavy lists is that the landraider dwelling terminators usually have more LC's and the foot sloggers have More TH/SS

The landraider LC terminators can ride up to a big unit of troops and intercept them without suffering their charge and then after causing carnage can hop back into the LR and repeat. The foot slogging TH/SS cn saunter through enemy fire and cause anarchy with there tanks and elite infantry.

I like LC's but I run with a Preist for FC, and run them in a Landraider so the Plasma does nothing to me.

TH/SS Termies

Have a read of this battle report http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292407.page

Extract below

The Imperial Terminator saving rolls really were outstanding, shrugging off multiple Lascannon, Demon Weapon and Noise Marine weapon hits turn after turn. At a quick count, the 5 man Assault Terminator squad + Terminator Librarian faced down:

3 force weapon wounds
6 normal close combat wounds
1 power weapon wound
4 lascannon wounds
4 plasma cannon wounds
1 blastmaster wound
4 sonic blaster wounds (one fail)
2 demon weapon wounds (Librarian fails his 5+)

For the loss of 1 Marine and the Librarian. Lesson here is take the Storm Shield for the Librarian!

My favourite is TH and SS, but I someitmes include Lightning claws.

I have a heavy weapon in all of my squads though

In my experience mix squads benefit from the space marine's ultimate ability, being able to do multiple jobs. Ya so what if you have a 3+ invo, fodder fire makes you take saves just like any other terminator, and if the people I play with see 3+ invo they just use mass fire to kill, therefore ignoring any bonus of the SS.

Plus I do have a tendency to put them in a crusader (for the frag bonus), so there is not much of a need for SS there.

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned here is that LC terminators are terribly inefficient at what they do. I mean, how many grots do you need to kill to make their points back?

Add to this the fact that LCs are redundant given all those bolters, and the killing power of LCs look rather unimpressive. As such, if you're spending all those points for something that is very hard to kill, but doesn't do that much damage, why not make it even HARDER to kill and let the damage to hordes be handled elsewhere?

Under the same circumstances, how many grots do TH/SS guys have to kill? And even better, how long do THEY stay locked in that combat?

LCs do very well if you take into account that they do re-roll failed wounds in CC, and can there-fore actually hurt the MCs. Yes, I know they can't hurt C'Tan/Wraithlords/Dreads, but that is why you mix, so that you dont get bogged by hordes, nor do you get overpowered by the big stuff.

Like I mentioned earlier, balancing is key, you cant kill a green tide with just lascannons can you, nor can you kill land raider spam with just heavy bolters either. So in the end I'm not saying either one is better than the other, just that combined they are better than they are seperate.

When you don't know what your facing I use a 3 TH/SS 2 LC combo. Nothing worse taking all TH's and getting tarpitted in a mob of Ork boyz. Also don't forget those LC's are power weapons that get to re-roll to wound they are perfect for cutting down MEQ.

braindeadmonkey wrote:Under the same circumstances, how many grots do TH/SS guys have to kill?

Yes, they're both bad against hordes. The difference is that THSS isn't SUPPOSED to be good against hordes, while LC's are. In the end, LCs sacrifice survivability and the ability to kill vehicles just so that they can be less worse at a job that they're still bad at (pointswise).

General_Chaos wrote:Nothing worse taking all TH's and getting tarpitted in a mob of Ork boyz.

braindeadmonkey wrote:And even better, how long do THEY stay locked in that combat?

Right, but if you're tarpitted on an objective, then why does it matter? The whole point was to camp on an objective anyways, why is mobility important? Plus, given their ability to deepstrike or ride in a raider, terminators shouldn't be getting into close combat until they WANT to get into close combat.

Ailaros wrote:blah blah blah

if all TH/SS works for you then, Rock on little soldier.

Okay, so fine, lets survive (not trying to be rude here).

Being curious though Ailaros, if gaunts with furious charge, 4+ poisoned weapons charged you after you got hit with paroxysm, how would you survive? They hit on 3+, re-roll 4+ wounds, and dont ignore your armor, negating the benefit of the shield. (Sorry OP for jacking the post.)

Against Nids TH/SS is clearly the better choice. Every Nid unit gets wounded on 2s, and Warriors get insta-deathed while Lash Whips have no effect.

Little bugs will kill Terms through wound saturation, but that's just as true of the LC or SB/PF varieties as TH/SS; the difference is that they are 2x as survivable against the ones that do ignore armor and far more potent offensively.

Why are we talking about Terminators charging freakin' GROTS of all things? If ANY SM player does that he deserves an almight slap.

Anyway.

A mixture of 2 LC to 3 TH/SS is the ideal compilation. This grants you the flexiblity (which is what Marines are all about) to deal with numerous potential threats that your opponent may present.

Ailaros; LC are NOT bolters. Why you are comparing the two is utterly baffling.

And just for the record, LC aren't supposed to be good against hordes. They're supposed to be used against MEQ, which is something that they are good at.

L. Wrex

But they aren't that much better than the TH. Remamber, you only need to kill one more than the other guy does to make a sweeping advance and the easiest race to dothat with are orcs (not necessarily grots) because of their craptastic I and Ld.

Termis and sweeping advance?

TH/SS with FnP i use in my Blood Angels List. They are incredibly powerful and hard to kill with a 2+ Armour Save, 3+ Invulnerable Save and Feel no pain

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Why are we talking about Terminators charging freakin' GROTS of all things? If ANY SM player does that he deserves an almight slap.

L. Wrex

Hehe, thing is I once charged some (10) so as to get the massacre roll to help get up a building to capture a point fast.

Thing is though if we are talking specific armies (idget) then in the dark angels the only way to go is to mix (their SS suck!!).

TH/SS is statistically the superior choice. If you take a unit of 5, you will nearly always be better off. LC's are not bad, simply not as good in as many situations.

LC's are most effective when used with a squad that can give them furious assault, such as attaching Khan to them, or with BA or BT.

Um yeah, last I knew nothing in terminator armor is allowed to sweeping advance.

Here is my uber BA terminator unit loadout:

4x pair of lightning claws, thunderhammer & stormshield
Recluisarch
Corbulo
LRC/extra armor & MM

This is a monster unit, furious charge plus rerolling hits on the charge plus striking at initiative due to frag launchers is brutal. The TH/SS is there simply to soak up wounds. So it is possible to go heavy with lightning claws if you have the right army.

G

I'd go with the hammer/storm shield combo. I've faced this on many an occasion and find it hard to defeat.

Black Blow Fly has it. That unit is excellent because it murders most other units with ease, but the 1 SS/TH allows them to not worry about getting tarpitted and they are able to destroy vehicles.

With vanilla Marines I usually run all TH/SS guys with maybe 1 LC in there depending on if I'm playing MEQs. Same points value.

When I play using the Blood Angels dex, I use a lot more lightning claws because A) TH/SS is +5 points, and B) you want to take advantage of Furious Charge with a Sanguinary Priest.


It really depends.

InventionThirteen wrote:I'd go with the hammer/storm shield combo. I've faced this on many an occasion and find it hard to defeat.

I once took down 3 TH/SS termis, termi chaplin, and cassius using Belial (sword), 3 TLC (one had the banner), 1 TH/SS, and 1 SB/CF on the charge. I had only lost the TH/SS and the chainfist BECAUSE of the large amount of lightning claw attacks (5 per=15!), also please note though that my SS are only 4+ invo in CC ONLY.

I definitely suggest a mix if you are running them in an LRC. If they are gating around with a Librarian than all TH/SS is the only way to go to avoid being plasma gunned into oblivion. I am currently working on some LC equipped Assault Terminators for my Salamanders. I know it isn't fluffy but now that I have started running them in a LRR or LRC I am realizing the squad lacks some before or at initiative punch.

TH/SS or LC.

Depends what you're designing them to go against.

Anti infantry LC rule

Anti armour take TH/SS

That's not to say that they can't both be used for those roles, but with LC you get rerolled failures to hit (good for hoardes) and with TH/SS you get to have a 3+ inv save (good for when a Land Raider targets you) and a Str 9 Thunder Hammer strike (am I right that Terminators get a +1 to their str?)

I dont think so, but i am not sure either.

Corennus wrote: but with LC you get rerolled failures to hit (good for hoardes) and with TH/SS you get to have a 3+ inv save (good for when a Land Raider targets you) and a Str 9 Thunder Hammer strike (am I right that Terminators get a +1 to their str?)

Do you even play SM?

um yeah chaos. Lightning claws allow you to reroll failed rolls to hit. Storm Shields have a 3+ inv save, and i'm not sure if terminators get an extra strength point for wearing terminator armour but they should.


And yes I play SM. I haven't got so much expereince with Terminators as others, but i've tried both combos of CC weapons and my pref is TH/SS.

Corennus wrote:Lightning claws allow you to reroll failed rolls to hit.

Nope, they allow a re-roll to wound, not to hit.

Corennus wrote:and i'm not sure if terminators get an extra strength point for wearing terminator armour but they should.

They have never, ever got a point of S for wearing Terminator armour. They get a 2+/5++ save, and extra ATTACK for the Terminator honours (included in their profile) and access to special wargear. The only Terminators with +1 S I think were the Khorne Cult ones waaaaaaay back in the day.

L. Wrex

Ok like I said i'm a newbie. And rerolls to wound......ok i'll take those.....

It's weird though they should be at strength 5 IMO. oh well, if they were no-one would fight terminators.

Im starting to like LCs more and more. They get 2 more atacks, and rerolls for wounding, + they're power weapons (not shure about it, but i imagine they should be). and with my common enemies being nids, they work miracles

Lightning Claws ARE power weapons, so no armour saves allowed on wounds from them.

And yeah against small tyranids they should work wonders. Just be careful against larger stuff i think (as a newbie) since nids have some nasty thick carapaces.

What fun debate...

I will through my two yen in CLs look cooler IMHO and are therefore better.... I like them in tournaments because you can find MEQ in large supply I also think that if you can put a Chaplin in there with them you could potentially cut down even the Biggest MCs in the Nid dex. if you can add a few more THSSs in to bring your total up to 7 Terminators I think they will fit in a LRCrusader juts fine LC will make sure you cut down most of the THSS you face... I like 5 LC and 2 THSS in a LRC or 4LC 1THSS in a LRRedeemer if you can take a Chaplin with a Jump pack and have him follow the LR until you are ready to Charge... then have him join the unit as it pops out... HOORAA Marines rock...

TH/SS is the most blanced build as it can hold against most things thrown at it.

LCs are best against enemies that can't bring alot of power weapons or massed AP2. Guard and orks are great examples(watchout for burnas though)

LC on a sergeant in a marine assault squad on the charge is just nasty. Especially if you've got a Chaplain re-rolling failed hits.

TH/SS however is nice for those times you have to crack open a Trukk or Battlewagon

Corennus wrote:Lightning Claws ARE power weapons, so no armour saves allowed on wounds from them.

And yeah against small tyranids they should work wonders. Just be careful against larger stuff i think (as a newbie) since nids have some nasty thick carapaces.

Don't worry against big nids the re-roll to wound is a huge benefit, and they still don't benefit from higher armor saves.

i have a LC on my captain, and he's once managed to kill a trygon prime, and than inflict a wound on a carnifex before being killed, just because of the re-rolls

Against the things you should be taking them for, TH/SH are the better option. LC would be better if they had Initiative 5. I would say LC are worth it in BA, since they can get FC, but do BA really need them?

When you face massed armor ignoring weapons, having a mix doesn't really help you survive.

Assault termies are meant to kill things you can't handle with shooting, so things like nobs, nid warriors (multiwound infantry are annoying to kill), MCs, dreds, CC characters, etc. Taking them to clear out rank and file is just silly, when you can take flamers and units that have dakka to kill them in a much safer fashion.

yes, but you can kill more whatevers with LCs

Only way Lightning Claws really make up for lack of a 3++ inv save is if you add a chaplain to the mix and go taking out squads of 20+ infantry.

Rerolled hits AND rerolled wounds = a lot of casualties.

BUT, by the same token a force of TH/SS with Null Zone is perfect for taking out high toughness creatures like Daemon Princes.

you are aware that you will rarely have to make an inv. throw with a 2+ save?

Have you never gone against power weapons? or lascannons? or melta? or plasma?

Well, for my chaos marines, I can either take a power fist or two lightning claws, they're the same cost. I usually take double claws though. I don't really care if I don't have a shotting attack. If I really want to, I'll throw a Heavy flamer in with them so they get an attack.

I don't even know what SS/TH's are. What do storm shields do?

waasssdddd wrote:you are aware that you will rarely have to make an inv. throw with a 2+ save?

...really? What armies do you fight? Most armies will be packing plenty of AP2, 1, and power weapons. Lascannons, plasma guns, plasma cannons, meltaguns, brightlances (ap2, right?)...there's a lot out there.

I run 1xLC and 4x TH/SS (storm shield gives the 3++ invuln @ above poster). A libby with avenger/nullzone rolls with them in their LRC. that way, i get 3 PW attacks and 4 LC attacks at I4 on the assault, and still have 12 TH attacks coming at I1. This unit is great for destroying Nobs (which I see alot of), opposing terminators, MCs. It is even decent against light/medium infantry as I can use avenger to thin their numbers if needed - provided I wont be removing the target from assault range of course.

I personally go 3 Twin LC and 2 TH/SS. This gives me defencive power against lascannons and plasma guns while also giving me that awesome chopping power of LC. Add in a Chaplain and you're ready to go!

I personally use 3 LC and 3 TH/SS plus a Termie Chaplain in a LRC. This is pretty much boss against anything you go up against. I like the Libby as an HQ choice also, I have never tried it though. I really like my termies kitted this way. They tear through a horde like no other, and have plenty of attacks to kill off MCs and vehicles, and other things like that. Not to mention the 3 SS really gives them survivability also. This unit is meant to assault the strongest part of an opponents force and tear it down. If you decapitate the beast, the rest of the army will fall apart!

TH/SS in conjunction with Null Zone and (if you're feeling expensive) Liturgies of Battle is the bees knees.

Overall TH/SS is more durable and flexible, while LC are really anti mass infantry only IMO

Why would you use termies for anti infatry? Im not sure about you but I have bolters and flamers in my army that can deal with GEQ. Terminators should be used against MC and other types of death stars. Against those targets the LC termies doesnt hold a candle to TH/SS termies.

Then the question becomes "why take Lightning Claws at all" if you aren't sending Terminators against infantry.

If you're going against hoardes then i'd probably suggest Lightning Claws for the following reasons:
Terminators get to hit first instead of having to weather being attacked first.
They get to reroll wounds so more casualties inflicted (hopefully) in a single round of cc.
More attacks because of using twin weapons.

Corennus wrote:Then the question becomes "why take Lightning Claws at all" if you aren't sending Terminators against infantry.

If you're going against hoardes then i'd probably suggest Lightning Claws for the following reasons:
Terminators get to hit first instead of having to weather being attacked first.
They get to reroll wounds so more casualties inflicted (hopefully) in a single round of cc.
More attacks because of using twin weapons.

And the answer to that is that "you shouldnt be taking LCs at all". If you are taking assault terminators for the purpose of taking out GEQ than you are doing something terribly wrong.

*Disclamer* This is for Vanilla Marines

Not everyone in my neck of the woods is running Nob Bikers, Eldar Seer consuls, Thunderwolf Cav, or whatever is the new internet deathstar flavor of the month is. So yes there are times when my Assault Terminators are just attacking MEQ, GEQ, or Hordes. In those cases a couple pair of Lightning claws can win you a combat that would normally drag you down and tie you up. Just because something doesn't work for you in your metagame doesn't mean it's a bad tactic, list, or strategy.

Hell I use Assault Marines you know the ones with the Jumppacks (gasp) and they rock in my FLGS

Assault marines in enough quantities can seriously rock. Especially with chaplains (if your points are high enough to take 2)

If i'm running an assault squad best combo I find is:
Sergeant w/ Twin LCs
x 2 Flamers

230 points

Add a chaplain with digi weapons and jump pack (125 points) and you're REALLY cooking.

And two squads of that is REALLY nasty.
for just 710 points lol.

Best for 2000 + point games

but all TH/SS lacks the attacks to kill any squad larger than 5 models.

waasssdddd wrote:but all TH/SS lacks the attacks to kill any squad larger than 5 models.

with 15 attacks on the charge they can most certainly kill more than 5 models...a LC squad would have 20. vs MEQ 5 TH/SS termies would on average kill 6 ish MEQs (taking into account that you strike at i1) on the charge where as LC termies would kill 7,5. The MEQs would then break from combat and your LC termies would most likely recieve some hot and heavy plasma loving...
Id much rather kill one less mech and ID the crap out of Nobz, wound MCs on twos and have a 3++ save vs any scary opponent than kill an extra 1.5 or so MEQ for the times when my opponent doesnt field any scary units. Not to mention I can actually treathen armour with TH/SS termies. Never take more than 1 LC termie.

i'd go 3 TH/SS 2 LC.

The generic combo.

You could do two squads with 3 TH/SS & 2 LC for high toughness character hunting, and 3 LC/2 TH/SS for infantry/elite hunting.

yeah, i get it now...ish. the assaulties are ment for instakillin' da tuff stuff

I run 5X hammers in a LRR but that is because I have Vulkan as HQ so the claws don't benefit from any rerolls to hit unless I also take a chappy, which I don't have pts for in my competitive salamanders list.

When I run a chappy I like to go 4X LC's and 3X Hammers in a LRC for some serious killing power.

That's a good set up.
Ultimate still is Chaplain, Librarian and 6 Terminators in a Crusader with TH/SS

I definately don't agree that the only way to build these guys is all TH/SS. The LCs are there to get I4 attacks and clean out some numbers so you don't have to weather lots of attacks, and have to make numerous saves. That is the weakness of terminators. Loads of saves. They are easier with the 3++ with the SS, but why not cut the number you have to take in half(at least) and go from there. A couple of LCs really help you to keep from gettin tar pitted, and can still put woulds on bigger stuff cause you getta reroll the wounds.

I used to run 2x LC and 3x TH/SS, but I found against MCs you were lucky to get 1 wound through with lightning claws. Thats why I changed to 4TH + 1 LC. Still get attacks at I4 and can give extra saves to the LC model to try and prevent losses of your I1 striking models before you get there. I really like the 4:1 ratio when you include an IC for some additional higher I attacks.

That seems like it would work. Especially with an IC. I just really don't like putting all eggs in the TH/SS basket.

Vulkan usually can get enough kills to keep some attacks off the termies before they strike.

Unless he's assaulted by an Emperor's Champion which has same Initiative as him and he fails all his Inv Saves......

LOL, it does happen, but for what I do Vulkan can get the job done before my termies strike. Not to mention it will be pretty hard for vulkan to fail all his invulns thanks to a nice 3+.

I have never used Vulkan, seems like it would be pretty hot, though. U can use him with Power Fist, or Relic Blade, right?

nope only Thunder Hammers become Master Crafted.

Nope, his wargear is as follows: Master Crafted relic blade, arm mounted heavy flamer (that is TL because of his army changing rule!), digital weapons, some named cloak that gives him a 3+ invuln, and artificer armor. Just him and the wargear by itself is worth his points. Throw in that he TL's all meltas, MM's, flamers, HF's, and master crafts thunder hammers, I would say he is a great deal!

Speaking of Vulkan, I need to upload my new pics of him. I just repainted him! He looks better than the paintjob in my avatar.

Any captain can stand as a proxy for Vulkan, even with different armament.
But if you take Vulkan then in your list his armament is as Pdawg described above.

For sheer giving your Terminators an edge and your tactical squads a chance he is the best HQ.
Just make sure you're lucky on your invulnerables. 3 wounds can disappear in no time if you're up against an opponent dishing out a lot of power weapon attacks

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Why are we talking about Terminators charging freakin' GROTS of all things? If ANY SM player does that he deserves an almight slap.

Anyway.

A mixture of 2 LC to 3 TH/SS is the ideal compilation. This grants you the flexiblity (which is what Marines are all about) to deal with numerous potential threats that your opponent may present.

Ailaros; LC are NOT bolters. Why you are comparing the two is utterly baffling.

And just for the record, LC aren't supposed to be good against hordes. They're supposed to be used against MEQ, which is something that they are good at.

L. Wrex

I agree that a couple LC's keep a player from thinking that maybe a few "free hits" may be worth it for killing a few expensive TH/SS before they can hit back. I use this combo only if I walk these guys in to lend some heavy support/defense. The meat and potatoes of the group is the hammers to blow the heck out of the really hard to kill stuff bolters just can't touch.

If I throw them into a Land Raider I go all hammers since as stated earlier: I can pick and choose my combats (usually). Some leader would be attached to them normally and with their high initiative, why waste it with a hammer or power fist, really?

If I beam them in (pucker up boys) a little more flexibility is needed since they are stuck there for the duration (can they really catch anyone? really?, I beam-in and do nothing, this is your cue to run and get your guns fired up) and make a fine target to shoot at. I really see no use for AT's then but normal termies have the right tools for the job; beam in, shoot a hail of shots, hang-out, shoot again and start advancing causing everyone to get nervous.

oooohhh, I was thinking that the gauntlet was also a power fist.My bad

I can at least tell you this much. If you are running vanilla codex, then do not go all LC's. You need at least a few 3++ saves for those AP1,2, and PW attacks. All LC's is something made for the BA codex with Sanguinary Priests.

I am pretty sure no one has advocated going all LC other than with BA. We have had lots of advocates for all TH/SS though.

I run a 5 man squad,all TH/SS.I just cannot get away from that nice 3+ invulnerable,no matter the opponent.

I believe in mixing them up with a preponderance of lightning claws. the storm shield is the better half of the th/ss combination imo... the 3++ is basically defensive since rerolling 4+ to wounds (70-80% of the time) is only slightly worse than wounding on 2's and it's at init 4 which means you're more likely to get the swing with them than the init 1 thunder hammers. If you're fighting a wraith lord or whatever you still have a few cracks with the thunder hammers. I just dont like swinging last on principle.

So my opinion more lc than th/ss but def have some th/ss guys in there.
AF

as pointed out earlier. When fighting anything though, which is what you should be using your termies against, the LC is totally crap. Against Nobs the will alcolate the wounds so it doesnt make a difference. Against MCs you will be wounding on 5 or 6s and not seldom strike after the MC even with a LC.

yes but str 8 at init 1 doesnt matter if you get wiped out at init 4. Lightning Claws fix that. AF

if you get wiped out at init 4 you must have REALLY bad saving throws

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes but str 8 at init 1 doesnt matter if you get wiped out at init 4. Lightning Claws fix that. AF

yeah, thats a totally realistic scenarion mind giving me an example of a situation where that is likely?

Only time it happened to me was when I got charged by a ten man squad of Black Templar Terminators.

They couldn't pass over 20 invulnerable saves.

but the BTs have furious charge so they would strike at I5 so would strik before the LC termies anyway. So while you stand a small chance of not getting roflstomped by such a unit a LC squad will most certainly not stand a chance

when in doubt take storm shields for the saves!

The only time I've been wiped at I 4 with my TH/SH termies is when GKT charged me. 15 WS 5 S6 power weapons do a number, and I got unlucky with the invul saves. Meh, it happens. LC guys would have been better in that situation (still would have died, but inflicted return damage), but wouldn't have done anything against the dreds I had gotten done killing.

I still think the mix is best. Even if you only use 1LC with an IC in the squad, it seems worth it to me to have it in there. That way you can cut down on the attacks that are coming your way when you are down on the initiative. Not to mention that my main enemies are orks, chaos marines and tau. The I4 has really been nice for me.

Nantukoshade wrote:I still think the mix is best. Even if you only use 1LC with an IC in the squad, it seems worth it to me to have it in there. That way you can cut down on the attacks that are coming your way when you are down on the initiative. Not to mention that my main enemies are orks, chaos marines and tau. The I4 has really been nice for me.

Again, the mix is only good if you plan on using your assault terminators on a very large group of "normal" troops then I agree they would be a must, but I would say that would be a poor use for them.

If you think you will get jumped by some garbage (or at least toughness 6 or less models) maybe after you are part way chewing through your main target (say a dreadnuaght, but you would need to kill at least a couple) but I would be killing the LC's before the TH's and you would probably still be in rough shape when you get jumped during/after you kill the big tough target. Some drop pod options are available ("open top" so no assault issues but you hoof it after that) or "walking" them next to troops but it would be iffy they would pay for themselves but LC's would most likely be needed due to anything can get you after the initial assault.

Use hero's attached to the terminator unit to do that, typically a WS=5 I=5 S=4 A=4+ (Usually 4+ Inv save, depending on kit) with a power weapon OR give him a pair of lightening claws (hurts not to use the BS=5) should do a great job thinning the garbage AND usually first strike while a full squad of TH can hurt the tough stuff that sticks around.

Beaming is a bad choice to engage; you cannot assault after and makes big fat shooting target and good luck catching anything. Normal terminators are in their glory by this method because they can shoot as soon as they beam in.

The Land Raider "should" let you choose your battles and could help block/intercept any cheap stuff that wants to jump your terminators. I have found this the ideal option for assault terminators and precious little use elsewhere.

Does this make sense? I really have tried other methods as you described and was disappointed. Some description of methods where you really toasted their points worth would be good to hear but all that dice on first or simultaneous attack with wound re-rolls sounds like fun but hard to pull off. A Captain with lightening claws or the two handed sword and storm shield makes fun combo's (waste of cost with the shield but hard to say no to an extra +1 inv save).

tedur. sure. fighting blood letters. Even with a 3++ save your guys arent as safe as you think.
High intiative saves more lives than good invuln saves. they cant hurt you if theyre dead.
AF

except I4 isn't high. Against other Meqs you go at the same time, and some units are faster (like units with furious charge, or eldar or better Initiative). Blood angels? Sure, give those termies LC and furious charge and have some fun (though BA can assault more efficiently elsewhere in the codex) Regular termies? meh. You shouldn't be using them to go after troops, or high I guys. You have shooting and/or other assault units for the troops, and shooting for the high I guys (most units with I5 or higher have crap saves)

well imo terminators are the go to guys for assault. given the right gear they should be able to do any job. yeah terminators with lightning claws and furious charge rock. I just dont like the defensive mindset of relying on a 3++ saves. Yes 3++ saves keep your guys from dying like 2/3 of the time. Killing the badguys also keeps your guys from dying 3/3 of the time. Go aggressive. Slay them all.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:tedur. sure. fighting blood letters. Even with a 3++ save your guys arent as safe as you think.
High intiative saves more lives than good invuln saves. they cant hurt you if theyre dead.
AF

So your telling me that you usually assault blood letters with your LC termies? In order to strike simultaneously you have to assault them. That sounds like a horrible tactic. A unit which has a 12 in threath range in an army with poor ranged AV there is no need to have your Terminators a fight with Blodletters its just plain stupid.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:well imo terminators are the go to guys for assault. given the right gear they should be able to do any job. yeah terminators with lightning claws and furious charge rock. I just dont like the defensive mindset of relying on a 3++ saves. Yes 3++ saves keep your guys from dying like 2/3 of the time. Killing the badguys also keeps your guys from dying 3/3 of the time. Go aggressive. Slay them all.
AF

Yes and with LCs you wont be doing much slaying at all. Walkers will tarpit you, Nobz will beat the crap out of you, MC will strike before you and youll wound on 5s or 6s ect ect

terdur.
I didnt say go all lightning claws.
the comparison was between lc and th/ss against blood letters. lc are better in that situation.
read.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:terdur.
I didnt say go all lightning claws.
the comparison was between lc and th/ss against blood letters. lc are better in that situation.
read.
AF

why am I wasting my time
I just pointed out that there are very few (if any) instances where LCs are better than TH&SS vs bloodletters...the only situation where a LC is VERY marginaly better is when they charge you and you are in cover. Quite obviously that very special situation does not warrant any inclusion of LC termies.

in a take all comers, i suppose a combo leaning slightly on the TH's side would be best (as in 3TH 2LC). but what about a unit in a landraider (prefferably crusader)?

going against models with power weapons and initiative 2 3 or 4 is a special situation.....? huh?
I want to play against the noobz you play ted

It must be nice playing where there are no.... guard officers, commisars, assault terminators, command squads, chaplains, captains, chapter masters, librarians, vulkan, lysander, khan, shrike, calgar, cato, terminators, wolf guard, logan, ragnar, azael, belial, deathwing terminators, death company, chosen, lords, sorcerer, blood crushers, blood letters, blood thirster, great unclean one, lord of change, burna boyz, canonness, arco flagelants, grey knight terminators, demon hosts, inquisitors......

now that's a mouthfull

Well, I take Assault Termies with th/ss, no lightning claws at all.
I won several RTTs with my vanilla SM including such a unit
and it always performed great.

is that with LR or without?

I am very experienced with these, and in a 5 man squad, there is no better way than 3x TH/SS & 2x LC

Meh I like 4x Th/SS and 1x LC better when there is an IC in there with I4+ attacks.

You don't need that many Lightning claws against the targets you are really worried about.

agree. mix is best.

But what about in a LR when you can pick you'r fights?

Personally I don't think you can beat 5 TH/SS charging out of a land raider.

Sure you might lose one terminator to a lucky hit, but otherwise you're guaranteed to slaughter the opponent.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:going against models with power weapons and initiative 2 3 or 4 is a special situation.....? huh?
I want to play against the noobz you play ted

It must be nice playing where there are no.... guard officers, commisars, assault terminators, command squads, chaplains, captains, chapter masters, librarians, vulkan, lysander, khan, shrike, calgar, cato, terminators, wolf guard, logan, ragnar, azael, belial, deathwing terminators, death company, chosen, lords, sorcerer, blood crushers, blood letters, blood thirster, great unclean one, lord of change, burna boyz, canonness, arco flagelants, grey knight terminators, demon hosts, inquisitors......

Yes, because with a few LCs you will munch trough enough basic guards men in order to get to the officers and commisars?
Most of the other stuff you have posted there is I5 or more which was my point. There are a few instances where the LC is better but they are not numerous enough to warant the loss of efficiency vs the vast majority of targets.

1 LC might sometimes be helpful, anything more than that and you are wasting terminators

You know, termies are ment for elite killing not munching trough guardsmen. you can tank shock right trough'em and assault the command instantly

TH/SS terminators arn't meant for munching through IG.

LC terminators are.

5 TH terminators get 15 attacks on the charge.

5 LC terminators get 20 attacks on the charge.


LCs have better chance of killing IG. rerollable 3s is better then 2+ to wound.

now if there are power weapons in the squad then a couple of THs will be valuable as you will want that 3++.


if there is a chaplain with the LC terminators thn the guard better have more then 20 men in their unit because rerolling hits AND wounds is brutal.

5 LC terminators will, statistically, kill 2 Carnifexs on the charge.

Depends on the enemy Templar.

Against Tyranids i'd suggest TH/SS

Eldar.....(unless it's banshees) LC

IG should be LC

SM & CSM TH/SS

Tau......TH/SS

Necrons......TH/SS

@ Grey Templar:

Terminators on Fex:

20 * (4/6) * (1/6 +( 5/6 * 1/6)) = 80/6*(11/36) =880/216 ~4 wounds.

LC terminators will average just over 4 wounds when assaulting a carnifex. Since a carnifex has 4 wounds, that is an average of 1 carnifex kill on the assault. That is half the value you stated.

TH math on carnifex:

16 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 320 / 36 ~ 9 wounds.

Its the thunder hammers that will average 2 carnifex kills.

I've been running 4x LC 1x TH/SS for some while now, and they absolutely slaughter. I play as BT though, so my SS sucks, and I get FC AND preferred enemy. S5 I5 reroll everything? Yes please.

see, TH/SS are best at more armies (only one is clearly ment for LC). And IG can be all-but wiped-out with a couple of well placed pie-plates by a pussy whirlwind crew hiding behind a building.

ted...

I listed things that had initiative 4 or less and power weapons. If you look only at things that have initiative 4 or less it's the vast majority of models in the game, so again, we are not dealing with an abnormal, special, or in any way unusual situation. A terminator striking at initiative 1 has a chance, however small, of getting wiped out before swinging; a terminator at initiative 4 will almost always swing, whether he lives or dies. The lightning claw is about as effective as the thundher hammer against toughness 4 and more effective against toughness 3, and these are, again, the vast majority of models in the game. The lightning claw guy is more aggressive and has better damage potential for these reasons, leaving the 3++ as the only selling point of the thunderhammer terminator. It's good so I advocate taking some of these guys, but killing the enemy is a more effective way of preventing wounds than 2+/3++ saves, hence the lightning claw guys are in.

Some init 5 models got into my list. My mistake. I took those things out here's the revised list. Like I said if I just make it initiative 4 or less it's almost every unit in the game.

guard officers, commisars, assault terminators, command squads, librarians, lysander, terminators, wolf guard, logan, belial, deathwing terminators, death company, chosen, lords, sorcerer, blood crushers, blood letters, blood thirster, great unclean one, lord of change, burna boyz, canonness, arco flagelants, grey knight terminators, demon hosts, inquisitors......
AF

Lol abaddon. I saw that.

lol. shhhhhh

Both calgar and Cato are I5. Cato has only a power weapon, so is always I5 and calgar has both fist and sword, so can strike at I5 or I1.

uuuuuhhh. Cagar's Pimp gloves strike at I5

ok. fixed. it's still alot of frikkin models that's my point.


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including, importantly, terminators, which are by no means a rare sight in this game....

Half of your "revised" list still has I5 or atleast FC...the other half is either TEQ or pretty much useless in CC...

well ted, is fighting terminators a special situation?

Grey Templar wrote:uuuuuhhh. Cagar's Pimp gloves strike at I5

No they don't. They strike at I1. He also carries a power sword so can use it to hit at I5 if he wants, but otherwise he has no special rule allowing him to hit at I5 with his pimp gloves.

@ Abaddon: When you give examples to prove a point, make sure your examples are accurate. Otherwise it just looks like you don't know what you're talking about.

Although you are correct, a mix is best for multiple reasons. The primary one is the thin numbers. The 2nd is so that you can allocate non-power weapon attacks onto the lightning claw. Since it already struck, you are trying to reduce the chance you get any dead TH models before they strike so that you get all the attacks you can out of your squad.

edit: In some situations you might even want to allocate power weapon attacks to the LC model, depending on how many wounds you need to allocate. If you are going to have to put 1 on the LC model anyways, you might as well stack as many as you can on him.

I would say that Vanilla Termies with LCs are quite rare. BA and BT termies have FC so will rape Vanilla LC termies either way (and kill each other if the vanilla marines charge and the BA/BT termies happen to be out of cover)

tedurur wrote:I would say that Vanilla Termies with LCs are quite rare. BA and BT termies have FC so will rape Vanilla LC termies either way (and kill each other if the vanilla marines charge and the BA/BT termies happen to be out of cover)

Why does cover matter? Aren't your terminators charging from an LRC, thus having frag grenades?


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Vanilla marines favor TH/SS, but still should put in 1 LC in a 5 man unit with IC attached.

If C:SM takes Vulkan, then all TH/SS.

As I said before, 1 LC might be a good idea simply for the wound allocation shenaningans


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Dracos wrote:

tedurur wrote:I would say that Vanilla Termies with LCs are quite rare. BA and BT termies have FC so will rape Vanilla LC termies either way (and kill each other if the vanilla marines charge and the BA/BT termies happen to be out of cover)

Why does cover matter? Aren't your terminators charging from an LRC, thus having frag grenades?


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Vanilla marines favor TH/SS, but still should put in 1 LC in a 5 man unit with IC attached.

If C:SM takes Vulkan, then all TH/SS.

They are indeed hopefully doing so

i use a ten man squad in large games and use half and half its really good!

wuestenfux wrote:Well, all my Assault Termies have the th/ss combo;
storm shields soak up wounds so that the squad stays intact before it strikes back.

Yep that's what I usually do as well.

I usually run 3 LC and 2 TH/SS. They accompany Lysander in a Redeemer or vanilla Land Raider. It is really like 3 TH/SS and 3 LC. 9 out of 10 times, anything that squad touches dies horribly.

That said, mixed is best. Thunderhammers are great for killing big things and soaking up armor-ignoring shots, while lightning claws mulch infantry. Run with Vulkan, Lysander or Pedro Kantor, and you see them go through the roof in how powerful they can be.

I run 2 claws and 3 TH/SS

That is the generic combo. but i would like you to write an explanation next to your combo, otherwise you're no help whatsoever (that goes for everyone).

I know I got some Templar brothers in here who can vouch for the weak SS that our Termies are running with, so that being the case I just load up on those LC and run them around in the LRC having all sorts of fun.

I currently have eight Dark Angels Deathwing Termnator Squads, with two of them built for close combat/assault.

Assault #1 has the Sgt with a power sword and Storm Bolter, a PF/Heavy Flamer, 1 TH/SS, and 2 LC.

Assault #2 has 3 TH/SS with one of them the Sgt., 1 LC, and a PF/Heavy Flamer.

From using them, I like the TH/SS better then the LC since I have faced Tyranids more then any other faction.

How about if my Terminators come with Shrike, LC or TH/SS or what mix?

You would waste a perfectly good jump pack, plus, joining non termie units with termies seems kinda dumb