Just moving this to the right place. Reworked it as well, to fit what I think is more correct information. Again, I have never been a part of the US Army, and am going off of what I'm researching. If those who have been a part of the organization could assist with the platoon setup, I'd be much obliged.
Troops -- A US Army force may choose to take either a Platoon or a single Infantry Unit as a single Troops Choice.
Army Infantry Platoon
An Army Infantry Platoon consists of 1 Platoon Command Unit, and up to four other Units.
Army Platoon Command Unit
50 points
An Army Platoon Command Unit contains the following 1 Lieutenant
2 Radio-Telephone Operators
1 Platoon Forward Observer
1 Platoon Medic
-- All members may replace their M16A4 with a Mossberg 500 (counts as Shotgun) for free
Army Infantry Unit
50 points minimum
An Army Infantry Unit contains the following: Rifle Team: Sergeant, 4 Soldiers
Weapons Team: Corporal, 4 Soldiers
-- All members of both teams may replace their M16A4 with a Mossberg 500 (counts as Shotgun) for free
The Rifle Team and Weapons team may choose to deploy separately or as one squad.
The Weapons Team may upgrade each its soldiers to the following for +5 points each
-- Automatic Rifleman
-- Grenadier
-- Squad Designated Marksman
Statlines
Army Soldier WS3, BS3, S3, T3, I3, A1(2), Ld7, Sv6+, 4 pts
-- Body Armor (6+ save)
-- M16A4 (counts as lasgun)
-- M9 Pistol (counts as laspistol
-- Bayonet/Combat Knife (counts as 1 CCW)
-- Frag Grenades
Army Corporal WS3, BS3, S3, T3, I3, A2(3), Ld8, Sv6+, 9 pts
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment, and gains the following:
-- Radio system (counts as vox)
Army Sergeant WS3, BS3, S3, T3, I3, A2(3), Ld8, Sv6+, 9 pts
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment, and gains the following:
-- Radio system (counts as vox)
-- May give Orders like a Platoon Commander
Army Lieutenant WS3, BS4, S3, T3, I3, A2(3), Ld9, Sv6+
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment, and gains the following:
-- Radio system (counts as vox)
-- May give Orders like a Platoon Commander
Radio-Telephone Operators -- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- Radio-Telephone system (counts as vox, grants other benefits yet to be determined)
Platoon Forward Observer -- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- May count as Line of Sight for indirect fire weapons.
-- Artillery Strike: Range Unlimited, S9 AP2, Ordnance Barrage 1 Blast, Twin-Linked
Platoon Medic -- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- Medical Supplies: Grants Feel No Pain (for simplified rules)
Automatic Rifleman -- Uses Army Soldier's stats and equipment, and gains the following:
-- M249 SAWS (counts as heavy stubber)
Grenadier -- Uses Army Soldier's stats and equipment, and gains the following:
-- M320 Grenade Launcher (counts as grenade launcher)
---- Instead of firing, may use a Smoke Grenade to grant the squad the Stealth USR for one turn.
Squad Designated Marksman -- Uses Army Soldier's stats and equipment, and replaces the M16A4 with the following:
-- M16A4 SDM
---- Fire mode 1: R36", SX AP-, Heavy 1 Sniper
---- Fire mode 2: R24", S3 AP-, Rapid Fire
The "radio system" is basically the integrated communication systems used by modern squads-- what basically is the equivalent of 40k's commbeads.
Uh... What's the point? I mean, the U.S. has some of the finest soldiers out there, but other than the fact that the United States no longer exists in the 41st millennium, how different would it really play than Mechanized or Airborne IG? Hell, 90% of the stuff you listed up there is just "counts as" stuff from C:IG. By all means, make a U.S. Army "counts as" force using the IG codex, but this just seems redundant.
Nope. Even IF you can convince me it's as good as flak armor, it doesn't cover nearly as much of the body as Flak armor is and it's heavier than flak armor despite covering less.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, I'm guessing I should give the option for the Weapons Team to have one heavy weapon? I didn't really get a clear answer for that.
A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Dude we wear cloth CLOTH do you really think a las bolt won't go though it.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Dude we wear cloth CLOTH do you really think a las bolt won't go though it.
Try watching the news sometimes. US troops wear Kevlar. An extremly durable caramic that's used on vehicles and ships.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Dude we wear cloth CLOTH do you really think a las bolt won't go though it.
try watching the news sometimes. US troops wear Kevlar. An extremly durable caramic that's used on vehicles and ships. You know who else uses ceramic armour? Space Marines.
No space marines use plasteel wich is strouger than that worthless cloth
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Dude we wear cloth CLOTH do you really think a las bolt won't go though it.
try watching the news sometimes. US troops wear Kevlar. An extremly durable caramic that's used on vehicles and ships. You know who else uses ceramic armour? Space Marines.
No space marines use plasteel wich is strouger than that worthless cloth
Spellcheck my good sir. You are also wrong, by the way.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Dude we wear cloth CLOTH do you really think a las bolt won't go though it.
try watching the news sometimes. US troops wear Kevlar. An extremly durable caramic that's used on vehicles and ships. You know who else uses ceramic armour? Space Marines.
No space marines use plasteel wich is strouger than that worthless cloth
Spellcheck my good sir. You are also wrong, by the way.
Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13
Agreed.
Thinking about it I would honestly say that an Abrams would kick the snot out of a Leman Russ any day of the week. Mainly cause the Abrams can move and fire ALL its guns at max speed and that squadrens can split fire!! Rofl
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13
Agreed.
Thinking about it I would honestly say that an Abrams would kick the snot out of a Leman Russ any day of the week. Mainly cause the Abrams can move and fire ALL its guns at max speed and that squadrens can split fire!! Rofl
yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13
Agreed.
Thinking about it I would honestly say that an Abrams would kick the snot out of a Leman Russ any day of the week. Mainly cause the Abrams can move and fire ALL its guns at max speed and that squadrens can split fire!! Rofl
Now that is true, you make the M1 a fast in unit type.
Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.
I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.
The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.
Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.
In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.
What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
Tell me, do you wear kevlar boots? Kevlar gauntlets? Kevlar sleeves? A kevlar helmet? Kevlar shoulder pads?
No, until a couple of years ago, the standard US Infantryman's body armor protects ONLY the front chest and abdomen area. Meanwhile, the standard Imperial Guard Infantryman's body armor protects the feet, legs, hands, arms, head, back, shoulders, etc.
And furthermore, despite covering MORE area, Flak armor is LIGHTER than the body armor used by the US Army. Even the most recent version, the largest variant of the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, which DOES cover more (back, front, side, groin, and collar), doesn't cover as much as the Flak armor, and furthermore it weighs thirty five pounds. This does not include the helmet, boots, or other gear that must be carried.
Flak Armor-- an entire SUIT of Flak Armor including boots, greaves, front / back / side plates, pauldrons, gauntlets, AND helmet-- weighs 24 pounds. Which covers MORE of the body.
Flak Armor is actually quite advanced, made of layers of impact-absorbent ablative material that is especially useful against blasts and shrapnel.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.
I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.
The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.
Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.
In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.
What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?
You are equating life with the table-top game. The table-top game is constrained by a number of factors (for instance, table size and game balance), and is thus entirely unrepresentative of the fluff. If you equate 40k FLUFF with real-world counterparts, you quickly realize that modern units are entirely outclassed. Leman Russ tanks are moving across the battlefield at fairly high speeds, laying down firepower entirely capable of obliterating modern units without a pause, in all directions, carrying armour sufficient to shrug off anything we have today. Imperial Guard artillery is capable of striking on target from many, many miles away, and they also possess the absolutely unparalleled advantage of fire support from orbit, in the shape of multi-megaton nuclear, plasma or antimatter warheads, energy beams, and kinetic weaponry capable of devastating entire continents or merely several square miles, as they please. None of which they have any qualms about using.
To add to this, the Imperial Guard themselves are accustomed and trained to fight monstrosities our military would crap themselves in fear while running away from, and have the services of powerful psykers, not to mention the fact that the Imperial Guard contains many times as many soldiers are there are currently people on the planet.
To sum up; one-on-one IG soldiers would destroy modern soldiers, en masse the IG rolls over any modern military you care to name without pause, and when considering other support factors the only thing to do in an Earth vs. IG fight would be to commit suicide before the Inquisition kicked down the door.
"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"
NuggzTheNinja wrote:"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"
"Copy PBR Streetgang, package inbound, have a nice day"
16 155mm rounds later.
"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, problem solved, thanks"
I just stopped breathing I laughed so hard!!!! Awesome. Still, and no offense so Melissia whose fandexes are awesome, I think that making or even equating the modern army to anything 40000 years from now is insane. I equate the Imperial Guard to something of a super modern, backward (oxy-moron) army. It is so freaken huge that everything is expendable. The US army today on the other hand has been so obsessed with survivability that we are currently trying to replace soldiers with robots.
Not to seem heartless and extremely politically incorrect (I'm a amatuer historian so bare with me) but the Iraq and Afghan wars have not been very costly. More men and women were killed in one moth of fighting (June) in WWII than the 7 + years the US and allies have been in Iraq/Afghanistan. Unfortunately for the soldiers of the Imperial Guard, the commanders of the 40k universe are not as concerned with human life; far less than todays equivalants.
Cool idea Melissia, but unfortunately too many problems will arise between the strangeness of today's facts vs the fiction of 40k.
Happy Memorial Day everyone!
More likely, you'd find that Orks would suddenly strike from space without warning, dropping in shielded Roks onto population centers and military bases and devastating an entire continent in quick order with millions of Orks pouring into the planet unhindered due to our lack of space-based protection. And that's assuming they didn't have a teleporter with them, in which case we're totally screwed.
Everyone underestimates Orks it seems, and yet they are the most successful race in the galaxy. Huh.
There's a slight advantage to being able to being able to survive and thrive in a warzone, plus the fast reproduction helps. Oh, and Force Fields, every trooper toting a .50 calibre machine gun, and incredible morale.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"
I can lend some insight about mortar systems, being a former 11-C (indirect fire infantryman).
There are 3 main types of mortars that new 11-C recruits are initially trained on: the 60mm M224 (light mortar), the 81mm M252 (medium mortar), and the 107 M30 -120mm M120 (heavy mortars).
Light mortars can be fired by as few as a single soldier, though more often it is crewed by 3. It also is not necessary to use a sight and bipod configuration with the M224, as you can shoot it "handheld", using your thumb as a crude sighting device. It is the most easily transportable of the mortars, and is frequently assigned to Light Infantry or Airborne units.
Medium mortars necessitate a minimum crew of 3 personnel, though they are normally operated with at least 4, but more usually 5, soldiers. The mortar breaks down into 4 major pieces for transport: the baseplate, the cannon, the mount (bipod), and the sighting device. These can be divided up among the load-bearing gear of the mortar team for transport, and teams are trained to set up or tear down their mortars in under a minute under battlefield conditions. For these systems, a fire-control NCO gives out firing solutions based on coordinates from a grid map, usually determined my a Fire-Control computer. There are a multitude of different rounds mortars may use for various battlefield purposes, from high explosive to white phosphorous, to illuminating "STAR" rounds. Recently, due to advances in IR "Night-Vision" gear, it is a common fire mission to fire illuminating rounds that only are visible in the infra-red spectrum. The M252 is usually the heaviest mortar to be dropped with Airborne infantry units.
The heavy mortars are often mounted in vehicles, due to their heavy weight. The M30 can be ground-mounted, but it suffers from a lack of accuracy due to the shifting of the baseplate as recoil moves it from its original position. Same as the M252, the M30 used a five-man crew to fire the weapon. In a vehicle mount, it remains the same, although two of the crew are the vehicle's pilots.
That's as much as I can remember at the moment, here are a couple good reference pages for you to peruse for useful information on ranges and whatnot (its been too long for me to remember those now, but they all could reach in excess of 3000 meters):
So mortars would essentially require their own squad. Probably a mortar squad with sergeant and nine members, and three mortars in the squad... not perfect I imagine, but would that represent a mortar battery well enough?
I'm mostly concerned with how best to represent them in-game.
Mortars aren't organized into squads... they are more like artillery. They are organized into "Sections" of 2-5 teams or crews, like your concept of "battery", 2 or more sections per platoon. Sometimes if the mission requires it, a team can be attached to a normal infantry squad (which is why we had to be trained as normal infantry first, then we received an additional two weeks of mortar training before we were done with basic and moved on to our units).
It really depends on the type of mortar you are using. Light mortars would definitely work how you described, but the medium and heavy mortars would more likely consist of 5 man teams, 3-5 teams per section (battery). With the limit of 3 slots in a force org category, they would fit in the heavy support choice well, or in elites at least. You could either do them like the IG codex, as a multi-wound single model with a huge 60mm base, or use them as they used to be in the 4th ed codex and count it as an artillery gun. You could run it with 3-5 models. Adding extra models would help for wound allocation, but should cost a couple extra points each.
Platoon Forward Observer
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- May count as Line of Sight for indirect fire weapons.
-- Artillery Strike: Range Unlimited, S9 AP2, Ordnance Barrage 1 Blast, Twin-Linked
this unit should be change to Scout Unit/ Forward Observer, I was never called that. Scoutsout
I find it ironic that 38,000 years in the future the AA12 still hasn't been put into production. In 40k terms, it would be:
strength ap range Type
5 6 24" (200m) Assault 3
Yet the normal, relatively rare IG shotgun is only s3, has no ap, slow rate of fire, no range and is generally alot worse than a modern one.
Just like the mortar:
REAL mortar:
strength ap range type
6 6 72" hevy 1, blast, barrage
And our .50 cal mg:
strength ap range
5 5 96" (1500m)
vs the crappy heavy stubber it's clear we have the edge when it comes to common small arms weapons
If you're trying to compare the military capabilities of the 40K universe to the modern world you're doing it wrong. It is an explicitly fantastical setting, full of larger than life heroes and whole pile of stuff that is cool even if it makes no sense. It has no scale for measuring the strength of weapons and effectiveness of armour in the setting compared to modern equivalents, because it's not an issue the game worries about on any level. It worries about how cool it is when a guy in really big armour and a powerfist attacks a big daemon thingie.
At a games club I was at one, time a fellow asked if Napoleon's army might go against Sauron, after about five minutes of silliness the best answer I've ever heard in my life was given - 'the answer is don't ask silly questions'.
That said, I like the idea of US codex. But it shouldn't be geared to play against 40K armies, but it could be geared to fight other modern forces equivalents. That'd be an interesting project.
As for orks invading earth, the poor orks wouldnt stand a chance.
40k never use nukes to obliterate ork strongpoints and never, ever use technology and science to come up with immediate solutions to a problem.
Our scientists would tinker up an ork/algae nerv gas in one week (probably just modifying existing algae weed killers etc) and the orks would be a memory.
Heck even the necrons planned on making anti ork nerv agents in that xenology book from GW.
Mellissa:
As for the US army codex its a kickass idea but I would like to see an USMC codex more.
felixthecat345 wrote:I find it ironic that 38,000 years in the future the AA12 still hasn't been put into production. In 40k terms, it would be:
strength ap range Type
5 6 24" (200m) Assault 3
Yet the normal, relatively rare IG shotgun is only s3, has no ap, slow rate of fire, no range and is generally alot worse than a modern one.
Just like the mortar:
REAL mortar:
strength ap range type
6 6 72" hevy 1, blast, barrage
And our .50 cal mg:
strength ap range
5 5 96" (1500m)
vs the crappy heavy stubber it's clear we have the edge when it comes to common small arms weapons
...you almost had me there. You almost made me believe that your post was honest. I was just about to berate you for your idiocy, but your sarcasm came through in the end.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.
I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.
The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.
Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.
In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.
What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?
a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).
On Real Life - 40k :
The main problem is that things we have in the 21st century can't equate to what is present in the 41st Millennium (there isn't even a confirmed relation from our date system to there's, so 40k could be even further into the future!). Today, our uniforms are made of cloth, in some fluff (mostly in the older fluff), the uniforms of the Imperial Guard are made out of a resilient, battle worthy material that is treated solely as a 6+ save (so compared to Orks, as good as big chunks of metal strapped to the body). The "flak armor" is the heavier bits that cover the vital organs and head. Also, there is a distinct lack of congruity. Look at Steel Legion Troopers, which wear only heavy looking garments, and they are reflected as having a 5+ save as well.
An Abrams may seem superior to a Leman Russ, but you are forgetting scaling. The armor of a Russ is not the steel and composite materials we know today, but something entirely more rugged. An Abrams round could easily be said to simple pink off a Russ, while a Battle Cannon shot could tear clean through an Abrams. There just isn't a reasonable way to make an equation.
As for M16 to Lasgun, the fluff is pretty clear about the power of a lasgun. Lasguns are not only pretty powerful, but they cause great amounts of damage, causing limbs to be sheared off, chests to explode out, etc... The M16 and it's 5.56mm round don't cause such wounds, a lasgun sounds like it causes wounds similar to a .50cal round at least!
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
No, kevlar is made to slow down solid projectiles, nothing else, no heat dissipation or anything or the sort.
Orks tshirts give them a save because orks latent psychic field and their belief that it does.
Cadian/catachan flak/tank tops are made of 38k years from now super stc space material that makes our armor absolutely useless.
Also i would heavily doubt anything we have short of a tomahawk cruise missile would be on par with a krak missile. Even a javelin would probably only be str 4-5 in 40k terms. A rhino could get hammered by an abrams for hours with no ill effects.
Also, they should all be ws2, bs3 is ok, but us army is trained to NOT get into hand to hand, their CQC that they teach is mostly theatre, not very useful in an actual melee.
Also, Catachans are illogical to begin with. Cadian/Steel Legion armor is a better comparison . Flak armor is made of, to quote Dark Heresy: "Layers of impact-absorbent, ablative material". Ablative material is designed to absorb the energy of laser fire by burning away instead of being burned through-- IE, the top layer of the armor theoretically absorbs all of the laser/blast energy instead of letting part of it get through to burn the flesh.
a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).
On Real Life - 40k :
The main problem is that things we have in the 21st century can't equate to what is present in the 41st Millennium (there isn't even a confirmed relation from our date system to there's, so 40k could be even further into the future!). Today, our uniforms are made of cloth, in some fluff (mostly in the older fluff), the uniforms of the Imperial Guard are made out of a resilient, battle worthy material that is treated solely as a 6+ save (so compared to Orks, as good as big chunks of metal strapped to the body). The "flak armor" is the heavier bits that cover the vital organs and head. Also, there is a distinct lack of congruity. Look at Steel Legion Troopers, which wear only heavy looking garments, and they are reflected as having a 5+ save as well.
An Abrams may seem superior to a Leman Russ, but you are forgetting scaling. The armor of a Russ is not the steel and composite materials we know today, but something entirely more rugged. An Abrams round could easily be said to simple pink off a Russ, while a Battle Cannon shot could tear clean through an Abrams. There just isn't a reasonable way to make an equation.
As for M16 to Lasgun, the fluff is pretty clear about the power of a lasgun. Lasguns are not only pretty powerful, but they cause great amounts of damage, causing limbs to be sheared off, chests to explode out, etc... The M16 and it's 5.56mm round don't cause such wounds, a lasgun sounds like it causes wounds similar to a .50cal round at least!
The Vietnam War wasn't a war. Alright, then tell that to the guys who fought there. I'm done talking about this because the level of stupidy is just going to piss me off.
Maybe 24 or 30", tau pulse rifles are extremely long range and they are only 30".
A 40k autogun is basically a M4, but with space bullets made of space materials that are huge and do huge damage.
So str 2, 24" would probably be about right.
A highly trained modern soldier would be BS3, like a basic cadian troop who trains his entire life. A super elite dude would probably reach BS4, just like IG veterans.
Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.
Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.
Officer were ranked individually at Ld6 to Ld10 and averaged 7-8, all the nationalities could have any of the officer rankings.
It was a bit of a turn for a US games company to record US soldiers as having the worst morale.
I would have US soldiers as equivalent to guardsmen in all respects. Ld6 would be a bit unfair as the grading is more heavily bracketed in the game, after all Space Marines only rank Ld8.
Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.
And this is based on what???
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are COMPLETLY wrong here. (Unless you are trying to compare POGS)
If you want to see how well US Army Combat Soldiers act under fire, I have first hand video/pictures/experience that says otherwise to what you are saying.
Orlanth wrote:Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.
It modelled WWII, though, didn't it?
The US army at that point is not the US army you see in the field today.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skinnattittar wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Vietnam War.
a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).
1) That's silly. When you lose 50,000 troops and kill 3 to 4 million enemy citizens, you were in a war.
2) The AK-47 was there, though, and used to good effect. While the rife isn’t up to the standards of professional soldiery, it is a great weapon
3) The US began offensive land operations in 1965, and concluded peace talks in 1973. In this time they were not able to effectively stop the North Vietnamese ability to send new troops over the border. They failed to meet their political goals. That’s called losing.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.
No, kevlar is made to slow down solid projectiles, nothing else, no heat dissipation or anything or the sort.
Orks tshirts give them a save because orks latent psychic field and their belief that it does.
Cadian/catachan flak/tank tops are made of 38k years from now super stc space material that makes our armor absolutely useless.
Also i would heavily doubt anything we have short of a tomahawk cruise missile would be on par with a krak missile. Even a javelin would probably only be str 4-5 in 40k terms. A rhino could get hammered by an abrams for hours with no ill effects.
Also, they should all be ws2, bs3 is ok, but us army is trained to NOT get into hand to hand, their CQC that they teach is mostly theatre, not very useful in an actual melee.
Actually, woven kevlar is specifically heat resistant. Lots of garments made to be heat-resistant incorporate kevlar. Laminates like Goldflex and Spectra Shield are particularly vulnerable to heat.
Anybody who's anybody on the 40k battlefield doesn't wear a helmet. That shows you just about how long they'll last on a modern battlefield.
"Hey dude, there's this big angry bald guy in red and brass-colored armor giving orders."
2.5 seconds later, Chaos Lord hits the ground dead.
If you want to talk 40k weapons and effectiveness, let's look at the bolter. We already tried something like that. It was called the Gyrojet pistol and it sucked. The problem is, rocket-powered munitions actually GAIN speed with distance up to a certain point. These things are useless at close range because they need the distance to reach an acceptable velocity. Bolters suck. Ork shootaz, the idea of some gobbled together zip gun being better than a precision engineered weapon is simply ludicrous. Krak missiles: you hit an Ork Trukk (a crappy pickup truck) with a missile and it has a *chance* or surviving!? Yeah right, hit a pickup truck with an AT4 and see what happens to it. You'll have to walk around in concentric circles with a spatula to pick up all the pieces.
So did you intend a large blast with the HE round, or small blast?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:If you want to talk 40k weapons and effectiveness, let's look at the bolter. We already tried something like that. It was called the Gyrojet pistol and it sucked. The problem is, rocket-powered munitions actually GAIN speed with distance up to a certain point. These things are useless at close range because they need the distance to reach an acceptable velocity. Bolters suck. Ork shootaz, the idea of some gobbled together zip gun being better than a precision engineered weapon is simply ludicrous. Krak missiles: you hit an Ork Trukk (a crappy pickup truck) with a missile and it has a *chance* or surviving!? Yeah right, hit a pickup truck with an AT4 and see what happens to it. You'll have to walk around in concentric circles with a spatula to pick up all the pieces.
Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons.
Gyrojet weapons are caseless, as they are purely rocket. Bolters are not caseless, and are probably not purely rocket.
As far as I can tell, bolters fire in two stages. First, a traditional stage like a particularly massive bullet or shotgun slug, and then it ignites the rocket afterwards.
As for Ork sluggas/shootaz, those are so widely varied that trying to claim they're useless is like saying "I believe firearms are useless".
Indeed, and when we look at the blast marker rules, on p.30, The Rules Section: Weapons, the Rulebook, we see that "Blast" indicates 3" markers, while "Large Blast" indicates 5" markers. Otherwise, I would have written it like the Battlecannon, Earthshaker Cannon, Siege Cannon, Siege Mortar, and Heavy Mortar are written ("Ordnance 1, Large Blast").
Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...
As for your sniper shot, why does he need a helmet? he has the dark gods looking after him >.> that bullet just dinked off his head, go invulnerable saves!
They then all put on their helmets and have fun with the snipers.
Also, i have a hard time with any vehicles having more than armor 10, MABYE 11 if you added a few feet of steel to the front ... problem is steel is like butter in the 41st millennium.
Ld6 would be a bit unfair as the grading is more heavily bracketed in the game, after all Space Marines only rank Ld8.
The Ld8 of a marine cant be compared to a Ld8 of a normal human. The ATSKNF make marine Ld tests way better and more logical.
A human fleeing (Ld8) will run of the battlefield (routed). A space marine fleeing (Ld8) isnt fleeign at all, its called regrouping, they move backwards and automatically regroup at the earliest possibility. You cant rout a marine.
As far as I can tell, bolters fire in two stages. First, a traditional stage like a particularly massive bullet or shotgun slug, and then it ignites the rocket afterwards.
Thank god that someone finally gets it right! Bolters need the case propellant to make them lethal at point blank as well and not need 200 meters to attain the velocity needed to penetrate armour from the pulse jet alone.
OT:
Now I dread the part where I go over to the sisters codex and have a looksy, last time it ended in world war 3 (will I find S6 A4 power weapon sisters again?)
kill dem stunties wrote:Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...
Well since we don't have any lasguns lying around in the real world to test it, I suppose we don't know. But my point still stands: Kevlar is very heat resistant and it is used particularly in applications that require heat resistance.
My point is, the 40k universe was (thankfully!) created by English geeks who, to my knowledge, never served in any military, let alone in any kind of combat capacity. The tactics, weapons, and background are not derived from tried and true military truths, but from geekdom. Which is fantastic because it makes for a fun and interesting game, but it is just that: a game. A real tactician has to incorporate logistics and long-term goals into his plans, and nowadays commanders must integrate aspects of 4th generation warfare: the media, politics, religion, and culture. This is the difference between real life and a game.
How do you know that the 40k game designers have no hands-on experience with this stuff? A chainsword is a prime example. Anybody who has ever actually used a chainsaw will tell you that the idea of a chainsword is completely laughable.
But it looks cool, and it's grimdark, and so it finds its way into 40k. Fantastic, but not realistic.
xxmatt85 wrote:Very off topic, I still think a M4 would Str 2 Range 36 for fluff.
I don't have a link to the exact quote, but historically the lasgun was viewed as being equivalent to the modern assault rifle (or mayhaps the autogun was, which has the same stats as the lasgun). I'd keep them at BS3 and Str 3. BS3 represents marksmanship and current optics.
I'd switch the SAW type to a light stubber (S3) as its glorified assault rifle in this context.
I'd switch the 50 cal to a heavy stubber. They look identical and it feels right. I'd drop the heavy bolter from the profile.
I'd add a lasgun to the grenadier to give it a proper under slung feel to it.
The grenadier has all of the standard equipment of the Soldier, but has the grenade launcher along with it. Perhaps this is underslung, perhaps it's a separate launcher... in-game it's just represented by having the rifle, pistol, CCW, and grenade launcher, amongst other things.
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Platoon Forward Observer
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- May count as Line of Sight for indirect fire weapons.
-- Artillery Strike: Range Unlimited, S9 AP2, Ordnance Barrage 1 Blast, Twin-Linked
this unit should be change to Scout Unit/ Forward Observer, I was never called that. Scoutsout
I would proffer AP3. In general being superior to IG standards should only be done with strong supportive arguments. Basilisk just screams 155 now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fast Attack:
Humvee (vehicle)
Armor 10 (all around)
speed fast
comes with: heavy stubber. May upgrade to Javelin team/missile (however that discussion comes out) at +10 points.
That works. A TOW has the size to definitely be a good lascannon stand in. Its ability to penetrate FEET or armor should qualify (those of us who have the original Forgeworld book which showed steel equivalent thicknesses would reflect that the TOW is actually much more commensurate with a melta cannon in penetrative power).
I would compare Hummers to IG: Sentinel in terms of what role it would play.
SOG ATV for Sentinels....
Hummers for Armoured Sentinels...
M113 for Rhino...
Bradley/LAV25 for Chimera...
Abrams for LRBT...
Avenger AA for Hydra...
Stryker Mortar Carrier for Griffon...
Longbow Apache for Vendetta...
BlackHawk Gunship for Valks....
kill dem stunties wrote:Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...
Well since we don't have any lasguns lying around in the real world to test it, I suppose we don't know. But my point still stands: Kevlar is very heat resistant and it is used particularly in applications that require heat resistance.
My point is, the 40k universe was (thankfully!) created by English geeks who, to my knowledge, never served in any military, let alone in any kind of combat capacity. The tactics, weapons, and background are not derived from tried and true military truths, but from geekdom. Which is fantastic because it makes for a fun and interesting game, but it is just that: a game. A real tactician has to incorporate logistics and long-term goals into his plans, and nowadays commanders must integrate aspects of 4th generation warfare: the media, politics, religion, and culture. This is the difference between real life and a game.
How do you know that the 40k game designers have no hands-on experience with this stuff? A chainsword is a prime example. Anybody who has ever actually used a chainsaw will tell you that the idea of a chainsword is completely laughable.
But it looks cool, and it's grimdark, and so it finds its way into 40k. Fantastic, but not realistic.
Most of that doesnt seem to be very accurate.
Yes if we tryed to make a chainsword with todays materials and such it would jam and break so fast, fortunately, they live in an era of comparable super tech (even though theyre in theyre own techno dark age) everything they have is light years ahead our stuff.
Making the edges on the saw teeth monomolecular would probably aid in cutting through fibrous type materials with 0 resistance.
the general weakness of chainsaws.
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.
Not to mention the terror aspect, which is more frightenening, superhuman who hides behind cover and trades potshots with you, or one whose running waving a crazy sword vox amp screaming various litanys at you, while wading tdirectly into .50 cal fire laughing as it cant even chip the paint on his super future armor ...
mon-keigh slayer wrote:
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.
Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?
mon-keigh slayer wrote:
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.
Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?
The problem with these 'whats better, modern weapons or space weapons' debates is that people never seem to take into account the stat scaling inherent to a 10 point system.
Its all well & good saying 'Look how deadly this weapon the US army have is, it should be at least S6 AP3, ergo it must be better than a pathetic S3 AP - lasgun'
But when you only have 10 potential strengths of weapon, concessions have to be made. Weapons with a broadly similar deadliosity have to be bracketed together, even if in reality theyd behave differently, & one would perhaps be superior to the other.
To see what I mean, look at the difference between a marine's stats & a human's stats, theres fluff about space marines picking up cars, decapitating people with one punch, & being 8 feet tall. Plus theyre helped out by power armour. But compared to a regular human (albeit an exceptionally well trained & equipped one in the case of Cadians) they only have one extra point of strength.
If you were going to plot out statlines to compare to what it would be like if it was real youd need a less restrictive system.
mon-keigh slayer wrote: As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.
Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?
Rofl x10
Plus....
What exactly is an amrine?
Thanks ahaha
And I don't actually know what an amrine is, but they sound really OP.
For that matter, Alicia Dominica-- NOT a Space Marine-- was described as being hit by thousands of shots in a single battle before that one lethal one finally penetrated her armor. Mind you, she was a special character and probably wore artificer armor, but still.
Melissia wrote:For that matter, Alicia Dominica-- NOT a Space Marine-- was described as being hit by thousands of shots in a single battle before that one lethal one finally penetrated her armor. Mind you, she was a special character and probably wore artificer armor, but still.
I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...
Melissia wrote:I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...
You're right. Most isn't. But that PARTICULAR piece is just stupid. If it would've said "she withstood much more than a normal Sister of Battle could have until finally she was killed" then it sounds like a weird, crazy act. But when it's like "LOLIT TOOK LIKE 1000000 SHOTS TO DOWN THAT LADY BUT DEN SOME RANDOM SHOT HURT HER" it's just dumb.
Melissia wrote:I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...
Don't forget in Codex: Chaos Daemons they get wiped out by a Nurgle invasion!
I mean, look at Julius Caesar - 'According to Eutropius, around sixty or more men participated in the assassination. He was stabbed 23 times.[102] According to Suetonius, a physician later established that only one wound, the second one to his chest, had been lethal.'
Source, Wikipedia.
As for Sister Bashing.
In BL's audio-book 'Fire Born'
Spoiler:
an entire Shrine World worth of Sisters gets killed whilst fighting a chaos raiding force and a Living Saint has her divinity taken. A singular Daemon Engine did at least half of all killing alone.
Yep. Games Workshop in general and Black LIbrary in specific seem to hate Sisters. Apparently they only like things that have penises and are bald, muscular, and old.
Yes. The organization is the main issue. Also, I doubt that the Abrams is any more than AV12 front armor at most. I actually imagine bolter shells alone could mess that thing up.
Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.
We have plasma now. Its a neat torch, but its just a torch and takes a while.
You also have guys waving sharpened knives around. KNIVES! in the 40M Millennium.
Frazzled wrote:Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.
It'd go through that many inches of MODERN armor, yes.
Frazzled wrote:Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.
It'd go through that many inches of MODERN armor, yes.
The Leman Russ does not use modern armor.
You're revealing your age. When Moses calls you "gramps" like he calls me, you have access to most ancient logic stacks . In this instance the original (softcopy) FW Imperial book had steel inch equivalents for their armor. A Leman is tough, but its like German Tiger tough, not War of the Worlds Tripod tough. They could defintiely be cracked by modern earth militaries.
I'm not saying TOWs are better than IG equivalents. I'm saying they are comparable to certain equivalents and could use those stats (you know if you actually wanted to play this). You could even bifurcate. Javelins as IG missile launchers with eq. stats and TOWs representing lascannon heavy weapons. Tows could be limited to the humvees or transports (even count a TOW as a hunter killer)
Sure I can. I take Marines using swords quite seriously when those swords have power fields that disrupt matter on the molecular level allowing them to cut through any armor. Even chainswords make sense, if they're futuristic ones-- monomolecular edged teeth, much more powerful and efficient motors and battery packs, reversible teeth, etc. The ones in-universe are much thinner than the models, I should note. This combined with the insanely effective Astartes armor, it makes sense that they'd have swords, especially given how many enemies of the Imperium are capable of getting into hand to hand combat to begin with.
Melissia wrote:Sure I can. I take Marines using swords quite seriously when those swords have power fields that disrupt matter on the molecular level allowing them to cut through any armor. Even chainswords make sense, if they're futuristic ones-- monomolecular edged teeth, much more powerful and efficient motors and battery packs, reversible teeth, etc. The ones in-universe are much thinner than the models, I should note. This combined with the insanely effective Astartes armor, it makes sense that they'd have swords, especially given how many enemies of the Imperium are capable of getting into hand to hand combat to begin with.
Well as most don't have power weapons thats great but...not relevant. A gun is better. Heavily armored is heavily armoed but a gun is still better.
Chainswords are cool right up to the moment you use a chainsaw on anything. The kick back reaction makes it unsuitable.
Because I'm going off of what is standard equipment from what I can tell. The Guard may not give their common infantry laspistols as standard issue, but the US Army does give a sidearm. As for CCWs, AFAIK most army units do have knives/bayonets of some sort that can be used as a CCW. You'd have to ask those that were in the military to confirm it though.
SO! Current changes:
Armor save removed
Adjusting the LMG to R30", S3 AP- Assault 3
Adding Light Mortar Teams
Adding various vehicles (I'll have to add them in one at a time, working on internal balance as well as external)
Anything else I need to add in? I'm thinking USMC as elites choices.
True, but I can't make them too ill-equipped or they'd be overpriced and I'd have to give them even LESS than four points per model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I think the LMG should be R36" S3 AP6 Heavy 3, so that it's actually worth five points for upgrading... and it's not really described as a weapon you can use on the move.
Chainswords are not cheap enough to give one per guardsman. And yes, all Guardsmen have CCWs (they don't get a second attack because they don't have pistols).
Standard issue yes...to certain groups in the arm forces. Infantry privates are not worth the time, money, and training to give a sidearm to.
What would be the strategic value of it? The infanteer has run out of ammo, cant get any ammo from his dead buddies, so he whips out his pistol? If things are that bad a psitol aint gonna change anything.
You didint check the source. All the source does is link it to a wpns spec from the army website. Im not saying they dont issue pistols at all, im saying infantry do not get one issued to them, or are trained on them. It would serve no purpose.
And wiki is not a tool for research. Academia frowns upon it for anything.
The most common sidearm in the U.S. Army is the 9 mm M9 pistol which is issued to the majority of combat and support units.
This is sourced.
I'd like someone with service in the US Military to confirm or deny this.
Just because its the most common side arm, doesnt mean its issued to everyone.
Having done security work in the Sand Box, even for the guys that are issued handguns(which is not everyone)- most dont carry them into combat. The weight is better used for carrying more ammo for thier rifle.
Another factor- is handguns using our technology are significantly weaker than rifles. I wont drop statistics, but they only have about 25% of the muzzle energy of a combat rifle.
I also think you're too dismissive about the effectiveness of the current generation of body armor. The stuff is saving lives. Comparing armor in reality vs imaginary IG armor won't provide a very balanced benchmark.
Actually I was going off of the fact that IG Flak Armor is lighter and covers more of the body than current armor (using Cadian armor as a base, I don't count Catachan and in general I despise them). I still wanted to give it a 6+ save because it DOES work, but it doesn't protect as much of the body.
So a poll. Who thinks it should be kept as a 6+ save, who thinks it should be removed? I'm not increasing it to a 5+ save, it just does not protect as much of the body as Flak armor, and I don't think it's actually as effective as Flak Armor to begin with.
I'm not seeing the hands or arm armor. I see a plate like my old bike boots but not sure if thats meant to represent armor. I could see 6+ just to represent a more poor form of armor though.
No, this was specifically described as "Guard Flak Armor". Flak Armor apparently can be in cloth form, or even cloak form so their entire uniform could actually be flak armor, with the obvious plates merely being thicker/heavier layers.
Also, Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare worked on Dark Heresy; I still consider it as canon as (if not more than) any BL book.
Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.
And this is based on what???
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are COMPLETLY wrong here. (Unless you are trying to compare POGS)
If you want to see how well US Army Combat Soldiers act under fire, I have first hand video/pictures/experience that says otherwise to what you are saying.
Bubble not burst. Your videos would proove little, most current combat theatres can cause a few casualties but not sufficiently threaten any US force in the field. History shows when the odds are more even US forces bottle relatively quickly, Mogadishu being a good example.
40K is about roughly even sides, the US doesnt play that game in real life the closest to that happens is in exercises. There things start to look sorry, most European armies trounce US armed forces in exercises. Ld9 officers is the Hollywood version.
Ld9 is a lot, if we account for Ld10 being reserved for legendary figures and the hive mind. Who deserves Ld9? The Gurkhas perhaps. Ld8 for most elite and Ld7 for most rank and file worldwide. Deduct one for most third world countries and an additional one for conscripts.
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.
It modelled WWII, though, didn't it?
The US army at that point is not the US army you see in the field today.
That is true, but it was also compared against everyone elses WW2 also.
Orlanth wrote:That is true, but it was also compared against everyone elses WW2 also.
Sure but the US troops sent combat in WWII were drafted, and had grown dramatically in size in a couple of years, which limited officer training and quality markedly.
Regardless, I'm not giving them lower than seven. Ld6, in 40k, is representative of conscripts. No matter your opinion on the US Army, they do not use conscripts. They use trained, professional soldiers, and that is the end of THAT discussion.
One could convince me to move junior officers to eight perhaps.
Sure but I am not calling for Ld6 US like Squad Leader in the earlier post. Squad Leader morale was varied, 40k morale is not. If Space Marines only get +1 morale over standard humans and are super eilte it is likewise going to take a lot to drop morale -1 also.
What doesn't work is Ld9 US even as officers. Morale should be Ld7 for regulars, Ld8 for special forces with much rarified officer bonuses.
Ld9 is for wierd stuff, super-elite and heroes.
Melissia wrote:Regardless, I'm not giving them lower than seven. Ld6, in 40k, is representative of conscripts in 40k. No matter your opinion on the US Army, they do not use conscripts. They use trained, professional soldiers, and that is the end of THAT discussion.
One could convince me to move junior officers to eight perhaps.
Fixed for you, see the added bold.
Keep in mind that the average citizen of the Empire of Man is an oppressed person. The Empire is a dystopian, cyberpunk society. It's the survival of the fittest, not the most wealthy.
I wouldn't even give the toughest 'gangsta' from Compton 5 hours before going insane in a hive world.
No, you didn't. Not everyone who lives in 40k is the fittest. Some people are just plain lucky, and others come from more affluent worlds. Regardless, I don't necessarily care because I am NOT making the soldiers into Ld6. Ever. They're already overpriced as it is.
To elaborate a bit, perfect realism does not matter. What matters is a mix of realism and playability.40k does not use realism, and neither will this codex
Melissia wrote:No, you didn't. Not everyone who lives in 40k is the fittest. Some people are just plain lucky, and others come from more affluent worlds. Regardless, I don't necessarily care because I am NOT making the soldiers into Ld6. Ever. They're already overpriced as it is.
To elaborate a bit, perfect realism does not matter. What matters is a mix of realism and playability.40k does not use realism, and neither will this codex
Oh come on. Even the most affluent worlds are still oppressive, don't even try that. Some people are just plain lucky=they're probably psykers and are going to be hunted down. Overall the Empire is an oppressive regime and you're STILL oppressed even if you happen to have a lot of credits on you. (Wh40k uses credits, right? hahaha)
Perfect realism doesn't matter in 40k, sure, but if you're making the United States Military to fight against 40k then you might want to at least try and make them accurate.
Either way, I'm done as obviously Codex: US Army doesn't really know what it's supposed to be.
Orlanth wrote:Sure but I am not calling for Ld6 US like Squad Leader in the earlier post. Squad Leader morale was varied, 40k morale is not. If Space Marines only get +1 morale over standard humans and are super eilte it is likewise going to take a lot to drop morale -1 also.
What doesn't work is Ld9 US even as officers. Morale should be Ld7 for regulars, Ld8 for special forces with much rarified officer bonuses.
Ld9 is for wierd stuff, super-elite and heroes.
BeRzErKeR wrote:This thread makes me really want to write up some stats for Lt. Gen. Chesty Puller. . .
Heathen! LT Gen Puller was a US Marine, and you mentioned him in a US Army thread!! Thats like taking the name of Chesty Puller in vain!! Better not go outside....a Force recon team might already by scoping your place out for sniper range
Remember, the fluff and in-game stats are two completely different things. Realisticly, an Abrams would be, at the most, 11-11-10. Compared with a LRBT, the most eavily amored MBT in the galaxy, and it probably wouldn't even reach Front Armour 10
Automatically Appended Next Post: And an M16/M4 would be s2 approx. 3 shots to kill a regular human sounds about right to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a regular soldiers BS at a fair distance would be 2, while closer up would be 3. An Abrams is very accurate, though: BS2 in the MGs (there machine guns, not designed to be accurate) while the blast scatter would be reduced by BS6. But it would be a helluva lot faster than a LRBT. An LRBTs top speed is 28kph according to lexi. An Abrams can get a perfect hit, while travelling full speed, on rough terrain, in pitch darkness. So it would have fast USR
Samus_aran115 wrote:Omg,why is everyone such a gun-nut here? The entire first page is full of pictures of guns!
Because they're American. Just kidding!
BOT: Officer of US army: probably ld7, 8 at a push. Standard trooper would be ld6, remember Cadians are extremely well trained, better than a modern SAS operative, and have avg. ld of 7. Sergeants for US army would be same LD: remember, Cadians are uber-elite compared with modern soldiers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, Melissia, fair point, realisticly an M16 would usually cause a casualty, but remember everythings in game stats are a lot less powerful than in the fluff/life, eg a lasgun is supposedly able to take out a guardsmen instantly, ripping of limps, blowing insides out and causing heads to explode, and you must be exceedingly tough to survive a shot from it, yet in game they ave only 1/2 chance of causing a casualty. So an M16, which requires about2 shots to safely take someone in body armour out of the fight, is having its power reduced considerably less than a lasgun. Anyway, isn't it a little late for arguments over whether a US army soldier's standard rifle is equivelant in power to that of a standard-issue rifle of a fictional sci-fi soldier 38,000 years in the future?
I lol'd really hard when some idiot earlier said we pulled out of Mogadishu because US Armed forces have poor morale.
We pulled out of Somalia because the president realized the absurdity of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, which is something his successors forgot. American soldiers, typically have very good morale and "hooah." But of course, there are always exceptions to every rule.
Fool.
And Like Crash said, it's funny how the people who aren't in the Armed Forces are arguing with those who apparently know quite a bit more.
And the Imperial Guard use auspex (radar/thermal imaging) to locate targets, then point and shoot.
Mmhmm. That's why I want to have a balance between "realism" and having a fun codex. Which is also part of the reason why I'm not budging on the Ld7 issue. As I said, I might remove the Ld9 from officers, maybe, but Ld7 is here to stay. Working within the system, Ld7 is the standard for human leadership values. Indeed, Inquisitorial forces have Ld8 minimum, including non-combatants like Sages and Chirurgeons.
I believe the US Navy has railguns in testing now that are capable of delivering armour penetrating rounds at a speed of 5km per second at a range of over 350 kilometers (and accurate enough to hit a 5m target at that range).
I'm not really sure how that compares to Warhammer 40k armour... but that's more than enough kinetic energy to go straight through pretty much any current battle tank using a tungsten rod or such. Appparently these test shots are only rated at about 10 megajoules (which is a LOT of energy)... supposedly the gun is capable of delivering 32 megajoules.
Commander Endova wrote:Uh... What's the point? I mean, the U.S. has some of the finest soldiers out there, but other than the fact that the United States no longer exists in the 41st millennium, how different would it really play than Mechanized or Airborne IG? Hell, 90% of the stuff you listed up there is just "counts as" stuff from C:IG. By all means, make a U.S. Army "counts as" force using the IG codex, but this just seems redundant.
You would actually be wrong there. There is a army that fought in the Macharius Crusade that was called the Merican Fusiliers. This is the 41st Millenium version of The US Army (HOOAH!).
They were part of the 1st Army Group, therefore they were honored. In the BoLS rules, they are very well trained, and all use carapace armour.
I find it hard to believe that US troops would be any better or worse then IG infantry.
The M9 pistol is most certainly NOT issued to every grunt on the line.
As Frazz and others have said, the Imperial Guard doesn't really use all that much crazy super future tech, and any modern military can easily be represented by the IG codex with creative counts as.
To say that an Abrams doesn't have the same armor as a LRBT just because the LRBT is 40,000 years newer is absurd considering what we know about the LRBT from in game sources (GW's own fluff).
On a 10 point stat scale, there really isn't enough variation that you can use to differentiate between various human factions. For example, it's easy to assume that any trained regular soldier will have WS3 BS3, regardless of if they are Cadians, US Army, Mordian, Valhallan, Russian, or Korean, or what have you, especially when WS4 is represented by Space Marines, Orks, Necrons and other super human individuals.
Hell, an imperial guard platoon is set up pretty close to the way a US platoon is anyway, with the exception being that usually a US platoon is 3 squads of 12, organized into 4 man fire teams. Taking 3 IG line squads and a PCS is roughly the same number of men and in the purposes of a 40k type battlefield, the line squads would probably stick together anyway.
The only things that don't really have a good counterpart in the US forces are Tech Priests, Priests, and Comissars.
Sacred Chao wrote:I lol'd really hard when some idiot earlier said we pulled out of Mogadishu because US Armed forces have poor morale.
Actually the comment was regarding morale during the battle of Mogadishu. The pull out occured later, when Clinton failed his own seperate morale check.
Melissia wrote:Mmhmm. That's why I want to have a balance between "realism" and having a fun codex. Which is also part of the reason why I'm not budging on the Ld7 issue. As I said, I might remove the Ld9 from officers, maybe, but Ld7 is here to stay. Working within the system, Ld7 is the standard for human leadership values. Indeed, Inquisitorial forces have Ld8 minimum, including non-combatants like Sages and Chirurgeons.
OK, but keep ld7 on sergeants. Remember, US army doesn't get severely punished (eg executed) for retreating, so I'd recommend LD7 on all troopers & sergeants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
calgar 2.5 wrote:
Commander Endova wrote:Uh... What's the point? I mean, the U.S. has some of the finest soldiers out there, but other than the fact that the United States no longer exists in the 41st millennium, how different would it really play than Mechanized or Airborne IG? Hell, 90% of the stuff you listed up there is just "counts as" stuff from C:IG. By all means, make a U.S. Army "counts as" force using the IG codex, but this just seems redundant.
You would actually be wrong there. There is a army that fought in the Macharius Crusade that was called the Merican Fusiliers. This is the 41st Millenium version of The US Army (HOOAH!).
They were part of the 1st Army Group, therefore they were honored. In the BoLS rules, they are very well trained, and all use carapace armour.
That's an interesting fact you have there. According to Lexi, Merica is what imperial records say to be a large nation that prospered during the AoOE. (eg that is what they think America/USA was called). All very well trained? Yeah, pretty much US army. (but why no space-SAS?) Carapace armour? Well, not the modern one, obviously.
EDIT: Wait, there is space-SAS. They're called stormtroopers.
Air power. 40k airpower could kick the U.S Army's butt to hell and back. Let alone an orbital bombardment.
In addition, many of our weapons rely on programming. You really think that those 38,000 years in the future couldn't jam our modern equipment in a blink?
I've noticed a lot of army lovers, and "true patriot" types here...but let's be realistic.
On-Topic: I'd go for a cheaper, larger force, if possible. Keep models cheap, armor saves weak, and vehicle armor weak (in comparison to 40k standards). Try to play it a bit more conservatively than you have, and ignore those "true patriots" who seem to be offended that you dare declare the U.S. Army subpar (which it is, by standards of the far GrimDark future.)
Che-Vito wrote:The argument that nobody has brought up yet:
Air power. 40k airpower could kick the U.S Army's butt to hell and back. Let alone an orbital bombardment.
In addition, many of our weapons rely on programming. You really think that those 38,000 years in the future couldn't jam our modern equipment in a blink?
I've noticed a lot of army lovers, and "true patriot" types here...but let's be realistic.
On-Topic: I'd go for a cheaper, larger force, if possible. Keep models cheap, armor saves weak, and vehicle armor weak (in comparison to 40k standards). Try to play it a bit more conservatively than you have, and ignore those "true patriots" who seem to be offended that you dare declare the U.S. Army subpar (which it is, by standards of the far GrimDark future.)
I'd proffer this issue would be more appropriate in an EPIC level context. 40K effectively has no material air support other than very minor items.
(I'd also proffer 40K airpower would get stomped. Their stats in FW are good but not great. Orbital is completely different however)
In the far future of the 41st millennium, there is no such thing as NVGs.
Even my ratty conscript-based prior employer could afford to kit us out for nightlife. That Lior night scope gives you the ability to see targets out to several hundred meters, and identify targets at about 300. More with the help of an IR illuminator. Yet in the 41st millennium I have to roll a few dice to see if I can see across a 4 ft table.
Interesting conversation going on here. On the first page there are alot of pictures of modern weapons and suggestions as to what 40K counter parts maybe. I think that the idea of the m134 mini gun as a counter part for an auto cannon is a little off. I have always invisioned the modern counter part to an auto cannon is the M242 Bushmaster Chain gun. The two look similar.
How about adding ruless for a close air support attack from an A-10 Warthog? This might only workout for SpecOps teams, but that is what we'd use to fight aliens, right?
Oh, I like the idea of Valkyries as flyers, but by the rules they just seem to be able to swoop along, about ten feet above the ground, or land, either way, a two foot high gretchin can use his club to smack them!
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Thats like taking the name of Chesty Puller in vain!! Better not go outside....a Force recon team might already by scoping your place out for sniper range 
