Several legions turned traitor because their primarchs were pushed away/alienated by smurf prime, and into the sympathies of Horus. He was arrogant and belittling, and his work with codex astares had a mixed reception at best (with the surviving primarchs).
I fondly await fluff that states guilliman was a Tzeentch plot to boost the ranks of the Heresy to dangerous levels and weaken the subsequent Imperium by splitting its forces .
I was wondering if I am an odd loner in this opinion or if others agree with the principle (smurf prime is a bell).
PS. not that I overly care, never played marines
EDIT: Yes, I am joking here. Find the guy a git but don't think that he's about to be outed as a chaos +1
If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.
I personally dislike him for striking down Alpharius...besides that, i don't actually have a clear reason for hating the guy, but i still wholeheartedly do
Jimsolo wrote:If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.
But people have it both ways. They say Codex Astartes was a mistake but then also say they have no flaws. Can't be both.
ROFLboute Gassyman is definitely one of Primarchs whose flaws influenced and brought about the heresy. He was proud, rigid, controlling, and zealous in his beliefs; his actions helped lead to the corruption of Alpha Legion.
Jimsolo wrote:If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.
Well, I could see someone taking the Ultramarines and giving them flaws in a story. They tend to be rigid, controlling, proud, and zealous in their beliefs (Just like Girlyman). Plenty of material there.
I was actually thinking they'd make a fine Chaos legion; oppression leads to order, order is a good thing for them. Plus, that U is begging to be turned upside down into an omega symbol... The Omega Legion, to combat the loyal Imperium loving Alpha Legion?
Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.
The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.
However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.
Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)
Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.
The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.
However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.
Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)
Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.
Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.
Anyway, I've just started reading Warriors of Ultramar. The Ultramarines do show some intolerance of the practices of their fellow chapter, the Mortifactors. That certainly counts as a flaw.
I think the main people don't like the Ultramarines is simple overexposure. We all get sick of the boys in blue.
Firstly, read Codex: Space Marines. Marneus Calgar is proud, Cato Sicarius is headstrong and possibly over-confident, and there's worry about the line of succession because Sicarious is such a rising star that he threatens to displace Calgar's designated successor Agemman, the Captain of the 1st Company. Their Master of Sanctity Ortan Cassius is a Tyranid-obsessed zealot, while their Chief Librarian Varro Tigurius maybe be tainted by contact with the Hive Mind of the xenos Tyranids.
They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
So? Pride isn't a sin because it can turn into arrogance.
Speaking hypothetically, if anything it's Calgar's proud awareness of his own excellence that prevents him from falling into the exaggerated self-regard of arrogance. That said, it still earns him enemies; regarding yourself as better than others is unpopular whether or not it's true. It's certainly more insidious if it's true since pride is what brought down Horus, who believed that his greatness meant that he deserved to be remembered, and honoured. Horus didn't think he was greater than he was, just great enough.
Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.
The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.
However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.
Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)
Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.
Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.
except he tore horus's throat out so not totally a failure, and not really boring either if you read your pre heresy/heresy fluff
I've read some stuff on Sanguinius. And I find him boring. The most boring of the Primarchs.
And Nurglitch, while I agree (tentatively) with most of what you said, I can't back your statement that pride was what undid Horus. I have read the books in which his fall is detailed, and just can't agree that it was pride that undid him. If anything, naivete or stupidity. I don't want to be some kind of harsh internet troll who rails endlessly about how much he hates something, but I was seriously underwhelmed with the writing for most of the Horus Heresy. Particularly the temptation and fall of each of the Primarchs that I have read about thus far.
So, while pride may have been a contributing factor, I think Horus was really undone by sub-par writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to ammend my earlier statement, they don't have enough character flaws. Or at least enough relatable ones. I think that might be part of the problem. People are unwilling to identify with a character who has a character flaw in common with them when they themselves don't want to admit to said character flaw. (And, no, I am not pointing any fingers. To avoid a page and a half of diatribe, if you read this post, and assumed I was talking about you, then I wasn't.)
Also, Canuck, who said the Codex Astartes was a mistake? I mean, I know the Ultramarines' detractors have a problem with it, but who from their camp thought it was a mistake?
I dunno. I guess it is all an opinion issue, but I like Roboute Gulliman. And if I had to live as a regular person in the Imperium, I would pray that I could get to live on one of those worlds in the Ultramarines' sphere of influence.
Nurglitch wrote:They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
Bravo!
I love Guilliman. I love Lord Macragge. The Ultramarines are awesome. The fact that so many of the twelve year olds who supposedly love them grow up to be sixteen year olds that supposedly hate them makes me appreciate them even more.
I was actually thinking they'd make a fine Chaos legion; oppression leads to order, order is a good thing for them. Plus, that U is begging to be turned upside down into an omega symbol... The Omega Legion, to combat the loyal Imperium loving Alpha Legion?
Spoiler:
I think Dark Lord Seanron has you beat there. Some pretty wicked fan-fluff, by all accounts.
Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
but is it really Alpharius who was killed, ever consider it was just a member of the alpha legion who looked like him? or maybe it was Omegon who got struck down? that aside, Guilliman was just a bad primarch i mean he did get offed by Fulgrim and his codex essentially weakened the imperium as a whole
That's the point. No one's sure if it was Alpharius or not. Especially considering the Ultramarines don't have any records that state Guilliman struck down Alpharius.
dietrich wrote:Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
That is the first time an ultramarine supporter has convinced me of rowboat doing something good.
Even if he did take down Alpharius, that still leaves Omegon. Although simply killing one could have seriously damaged or outright killed the other, they do share a soul. That or it would compress them both back into one body.
dietrich wrote:Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
That is the first time an ultramarine supporter has convinced me of rowboat doing something good.
Agreed, i don't like Ultras, but i must say that the split of the legions was a really wise decision! (maybe the only one )
PD: someone can explain me what means "Rowboat"? Girlyman is obvious
Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.
The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.
However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.
Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)
Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.
Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.
except he tore horus's throat out so not totally a failure, and not really boring either if you read your pre heresy/heresy fluff
"Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour." This is about would be throat tearing, if I considered 1 casualty in a war of millions to be an epic victory. And yes, he is boring, to me. He's even more "perfect" than Rowboat, he's described as being incredibly beautiful, and revered by the entire imperium, he has literally, almost NO character flaws. And I say "almost" only because I can't think of any, if there wasn't any, then I wouldn't be surprised.
Also, the french aren't that bad in a war, they have something like 300 nuclear warheads and are 3rd in the world for military spending.
I'm actually an Closet Ultra Marines fan. There the guys you know you can call to get saved but you kinda don't want to lol. Cuz you know you'll hear about it.
Guardsmen- Wooo that was a tough battle we almost lost.
Ultramarine- Not while we're here, without us ya your fethed.
Guardsmen-...
Ultramarine- So who here wants to thank me first I'll start a line right....... here.
Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.
The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.
However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.
Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)
Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.
Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.
except he tore horus's throat out so not totally a failure, and not really boring either if you read your pre heresy/heresy fluff
"Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour." This is about would be throat tearing, if I considered 1 casualty in a war of millions to be an epic victory. And yes, he is boring, to me. He's even more "perfect" than Rowboat, he's described as being incredibly beautiful, and revered by the entire imperium, he has literally, almost NO character flaws. And I say "almost" only because I can't think of any, if there wasn't any, then I wouldn't be surprised.
Also, the french aren't that bad in a war, they have something like 300 nuclear warheads and are 3rd in the world for military spending.
someone didn't read the backstory of when captain Tycho was seeing Sanguinus death, for those unfamiliar it was in the last chapter approved and i believe a white dwarf artical during the third war for Armageddon. but back on topic of the ultra smurf, he is boring and he more or less caused a lot of the primarchs to turn to Horus' side Konrad and Perturabo aside. if i remember correctly from Horus Rising he was even disgruntled about Horus being named warmaster which in turn caused Horus stress, ergo the whole heresy could have indeed been The ultra smurf's fault
That's a pretty lame swipe at Guilliman. You could just as easily (and more plausibly) say that if the Emperor had made Guilliman Warmaster then there would never have been any heresy at all.
no there still would have been due to Logar, he'd have just found another pawn instead of Horus. my bet would be either the smurf or manus or the ever unlikely Sanguinius depending all on who could influence more of the primarchs to turn
I am not a g-man fan, but he would have organized everything almost perfectly. But still lacked the charisma to lead.
Lorgar has fallen pre-heresy, but the warpcreatures didn't actively plan with him.
N°1 target: Magnus (influence on psykers and research) As planned commander of the webway, he's not a bad choice.
N°2 target: Horus (diplomat and warmaster) fine to split the loyalists and try a military victory.
So who's N°3?
Or was there none?
Back to the Ultras.
IMO, these blue-clad space marines are the bureaucratic aspect of the Emperor.
Would be nice to know our Emperors plans for them.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:*shrug*
He's no Leman Russ, is he?
(personal prejudice alert)
Russ is a man's man. A manly man, not afraid to speak his mind in a coarse fashion, & send back improperly cooked food in restaurants.
Were Rub-out Girlyman confronted with a poorly cooked steak, I imagine he'd just eat it anyway to keep up appearances & then write a strongly worded letter when he got home.
Necroman wrote:ROFLboute Gassyman is definitely one of Primarchs whose flaws influenced and brought about the heresy. He was proud, rigid, controlling, and zealous in his beliefs
Ahh, you mean that he was indeed a Primarch then?
No offense meant- just pointing out that a primarch who CANNOT be described in those terms is the exception to the rule - certainly, those same words can be ascribed perfectly to their father, the Emperor of Mankind himself.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:*shrug*
He's no Leman Russ, is he?
(personal prejudice alert)
Russ is a man's man. A manly man, not afraid to speak his mind in a coarse fashion, & send back improperly cooked food in restaurants.
Were Rub-out Girlyman confronted with a poorly cooked steak, I imagine he'd just eat it anyway to keep up appearances & then write a strongly worded letter when he got home.
I suspect that Russ' actual actions would be to eat the steak, drink a barrel of mead and punch out the cook for not doing it right, before walking out carrying away the manager's wife.
dietrich wrote:Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
Well said... very well said. I totally agree with this.
Nurglitch wrote:They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
Bravo!
I love Guilliman. I love Lord Macragge. The Ultramarines are awesome. The fact that so many of the twelve year olds who supposedly love them grow up to be sixteen year olds that supposedly hate them makes me appreciate them even more.
Bravo sir. It's nice to hear from some non-haters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shaman wrote:
dietrich wrote:Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
That is the first time an ultramarine supporter has convinced me of rowboat doing something good.
Only thing I would argue with that is that the Ultramarines probably outnumbered the other Legions 1000:1 or more. Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders were almost completely extinct, the Legions at the Walls of Terra were decimated and even the Space Wolves just got through a big fight with the Thousand sons. Ultramarines spnet most of the Heresy trying to haul ass to earth. They shouldn't be critized for this as it was Horus's excellent planning that put the Largest Legion in remote corners of the Galaxy. Codex Asartes effected Guilliman a hundred times more than any other legion. This is evidenced that most Space Marines, over 60%, in the year 40,000 are in fact Ultramarines.
Guilliman held Humanity together in its darkest hour. He's the closest thing the Imperium has had to a 2nd Emperor and all he did with that Absolute Power is set up a system to protect Humanity from its Absolute Corruption.
I don't get what is so boring about the Ultramarines. It's pretty well established that they are not perfect. The only thing that I can think of that is boring about them is the lame plays on Guilliman's name. Oh, wait that's just what's boring about the internet. Seriously, Rowboat Girlyman? That's not clever at all. If I wanted to make fun of Dark Angels, I wouldn't call their Primarch "Lion Sans Johnson." I would talk about how they're more self-absorbed than teenage girls. If I wanted to make fun of the Space wolves, I wouldn't call their Primarch "Lemon Rust." I would . . . actually there's nothing but awesome when it comes to Space Wolves. Anyway, the point is that the only people who hate Ultramarines are kids who don't want to be confused with little kids. I've yet to hear a solid point about why there is so much anti-Ultramarines sentiment. And don't give me that "they get all the coverage" bs, either. We all know that you can build any other Codex SM army out of C:SM5th perfectly well with plenty of Chapter-specific fluffiness.
Nurglitch wrote:They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
Bravo!
I love Guilliman. I love Lord Macragge. The Ultramarines are awesome. The fact that so many of the twelve year olds who supposedly love them grow up to be sixteen year olds that supposedly hate them makes me appreciate them even more.
Bravo sir. It's nice to hear from some non-haters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shaman wrote:
dietrich wrote:Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.
The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.
And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.
Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.
That is the first time an ultramarine supporter has convinced me of rowboat doing something good.
Only thing I would argue with that is that the Ultramarines probably outnumbered the other Legions 1000:1 or more. Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders were almost completely extinct, the Legions at the Walls of Terra were decimated and even the Space Wolves just got through a big fight with the Thousand sons. Ultramarines spnet most of the Heresy trying to haul ass to earth. They shouldn't be critized for this as it was Horus's excellent planning that put the Largest Legion in remote corners of the Galaxy. Codex Asartes effected Guilliman a hundred times more than any other legion. This is evidenced that most Space Marines, over 60%, in the year 40,000 are in fact Ultramarines.
Guilliman held Humanity together in its darkest hour. He's the closest thing the Imperium has had to a 2nd Emperor and all he did with that Absolute Power is set up a system to protect Humanity from its Absolute Corruption.
actually the ultramarines were ambushed by the word bearers, so they kinda did something instead of nothing. I'm looking at you dark angels.... and please don't anyone say the whole caliban thing as that happened during the scouring not the heresy as stated in the index astartes article
Manchu wrote:I don't get what is so boring about the Ultramarines. It's pretty well established that they are not perfect. The only thing that I can think of that is boring about them is the lame plays on Guilliman's name. Oh, wait that's just what's boring about the internet. Seriously, Rowboat Girlyman? That's not clever at all. If I wanted to make fun of Dark Angels, I wouldn't call their Primarch "Lion Sans Johnson." I would talk about how they're more self-absorbed than teenage girls. If I wanted to make fun of the Space wolves, I wouldn't call their Primarch "Lemon Rust." I would . . . actually there's nothing but awesome when it comes to Space Wolves. Anyway, the point is that the only people who hate Ultramarines are kids who don't want to be confused with little kids. I've yet to hear a solid point about why there is so much anti-Ultramarines sentiment. And don't give me that "they get all the coverage" bs, either. We all know that you can build any other Codex SM army out of C:SM5th perfectly well with plenty of Chapter-specific fluffiness.
Ya I would say that SWs can often be the most boring. They always do the right and predictable thing. They're more like your stereotypical good guys. Although one time William King did a pretty good job in one of his books (can't remember which one) of fleshing out Ragnar. There was a part where he had to euthnize some mutated Navigators and while he was putting bolts in their head he couldn't help but smile. He liked killing mutants even when they were his allies. The prejudice is heavily ingrained in all Fenrisians and he liked giving into it.
I believe he was doing his best to reunite and redistribute the resources of the Imperium following the wars. He was responsible for the Codex Astartes which if anything, was a desperate attempt to reorganize things so it couldn't happen again. Of course there have been other black crusades and tyranid hive fleets and ork waaghs and so on to deal with, but what I think gives the chapter its character is their rigid adherence to a warrior code. That's what makes them cool. I got no beef with the guy for being 'boring' I always pictured him as a kind of 'philosopher-warrior' kind of guy. Tempered, thoughtful, still a badass because he's a primarch and all, but not so angry as Leman, not so self absorbed as Lion'el, not so 'holier than thou' as Sanguinius. I think his boring studious meticulousness makes him interesting, and when I play my offshoot chapter "Doom Eagles" I still want to obey the Codex Astartes to the letter, just because it's cool.
I agree. I think having your Primarch as the author of the most important piece of literature ever written is interesting. Some chapters take it so far the give it religious reverance. Guilliman would have hated that but that little wrinkle adds interest to the Ultramarine family mythos.
But that's what makes it cool. The Doom Eagles are so religious they are all depressed and convinced of their own fatalistic demise in the Emperor's service. That's just cool for story purpose. Why does such a doom-obsessed chapter exist (other than the easy paintjob) is to alude to the radical religious zeal that some have towards the Codex Astartes. Roboutte wrote what essentially became many chapters version of The Old Testament Moses laws of the 41st millenium. Shrouded in time, I'm sure it gets a bit misconstrued, religious zealousy being what it is. The chapters that straw from the codex or have flaws or don't exhibit rigid obedience are more popular with players because they get all the cool special rules and such, but I think the 'purist' mentality is cooler in story than just "BLAAAH I'm a viking! kill!" or "BLAAH I'm a vampire! BLOOD!" cliche one-sided stereotypes.
Just to end all this anti-French war remarks: 1. There modern military is well trained and very well-equipped. 2. If you lose lots of wars due to being unprepared it just shows you don't like war. Which is a GOOD thing.
'coughUSAcough' But turning up for no reason is enexcusable.
Is that why they're depressed? I find it kinda amusing that there are Chapters suffering from clinical depression.
There's a chapter called The Doom Warriors that have a mutation in their hibernation organ that has the effect of them not needing to sleep ever, but as a result they suffer from depression! Hilariously wierd.
I have a mild dislike of Ultramarines for their holier-than-thou attitude and because I don't like the way the greek aesthetic is done in some of the character models. I have a somewhat stronger dislike for Calgar because of his fluff (although I don't mind Telion's). But then I don't particularly like the Imperium in general and have the same mild dislike for most chapters. It would be quicker to list the chapters that I do like, and most of them are for equally flimsy reasons.
For the 'what other primachs could have been corrupted': I think Ferrus Manus could have been a reasonable, if unusual choice. The strong ties to the Mechanium were there, and they were known for being rather coldly ruthless. Even now they still blame the other loyalists just as much as the traitors for what happened. He'd also been previously exposed to the influence of something odd. I see such a style as being more a quiet undermining, not outright battle or espionage. Just gradually hardening hearts of all the legions to do what must be done, despite the cost, and prodding into more terrible acts until the Emperor started protesting (ala the World Eaters) at which point most of the primachs could be caught in the displeasure.
codex is by all means limiting though. though this could be another discussion i see this as one in the same, take a good look at codex marines. in forth edition we had options t make chapters as we wished, but now.... and i say this is the same argument simply because how can a book change from one moment to the next? in simplicity reconning the fluff. under 4th ed codex marines gulliman was actually okay, but now they've gone back to the whole "i'm a ridged hard obey me or be destroyed" BS. actually now that i think about it gulliman almost killed Dorn because he refused to follow the codex
He is the Jesus figure of the game, combined with angelic beauty and god's angry wrath how could they go wrong with a character like that? It's bible elemants all over. Guilleman would be more the Moses to sanguinous's Jesus... Stern, unrelenting, law above all else.
Guitardian wrote:He is the Jesus figure of the game, combined with angelic beauty and god's angry wrath how could they go wrong with a character like that? It's bible elemants all over. Guilleman would be more the Moses to sanguinous's Jesus... Stern, unrelenting, law above all else.
Hmm, I'd say Sanguinius is more of an Abel figure. Everyone knows Empra is Jesus. And it seems to me that Guilliman is the Paul to Dorn's Peter.
This is kind of off-topic, but have you ever noticed that Horus is more defined by how the other Primarchs are not like him rather than anything specific to his own personality? Using the example of Sanguinius: Horus murders Sanguinius, which is an act of rejecting the nobility of the Emperor's vision in favor of Chaos--i.e., Horus is not noble . . . unlike Sanguinius.
What i haven't seen stated around is this :
During the Great Crusade, there were 20 Legions, each 10.000 strong. That would make 200.000 Marines, plus the Guard accompanying the respective Legions and their expeditions. And those forces conquered thousands of planets.
Now, in the present 40k time, there are around 1000 Chapters, each with roughly 1000 Marines, making a total of 1.000.000(!!!) Astartes, plus the Guard. But, the splitting into Chapters has rendered this 5-times-bigger-than-the-Crusade-time number of Marines totally useless, making it impossible for any leader to attain power and use it wrongly, but also preventing them from uniting and starting another Great Crusade.
Furthermore, the Codex works only for the Astartes, and it was totally useless to prevent the rise of Vandire and his reign, while being even more useless in causing its downfall.
This is what the Codex actually did. While (arguably) preventing another (Astartes) Heresy, it also prevented the Imperium from starting campaigns of conquest of the magnitude of the Great Crusade
The smurfs are the poster boys so most everyone's gonna hate on them. The question is why do we hate Googlyman and his smurfs.
For me Rowboat is supposed to be this great administrator and yet technology falters into religous zealotry. He should of put a boot into Mars' behind to keep technology moving forward, not backwards. I guess his book didn't have enough room to write about a subsection on maintaining of all your gear instead of just your Bolter and Power Armour.
This is worse than Battletech. This is why I am a devout Xenos Scum. We at least do not worship Toasters.
I believe it was necessary to separate the Astartes from anything but their religious zealousy of their chapter. Mars would be included. What if a chapter of Marines pinpoint strike a Titan facility, and suddenly have all that power too? I think it was deliberate to keep them separated, which is why Techmarines (and techpriests) are kind of the intermediaries of two separate, important, yet not self sufficient entities. The division could go further down the ladder and you have a chapter who has their own Imperial Guard regiment at their disposal, their own titans, doesn't matter any more if there's only 1000 of them if theres a billion serving soldiers, tanks, titans, etc following their doctrine. That's why it was in his infinite wisdom to draw up a law by which Marines only tend to Marine matters (like tending the boltgun and the armor) and left other military matters to other branches.
Given the size and splendor of Ultramar, I would say he did pretty well for himself by restricting everyone else's ambitions... Regardless of gameplay worthiness, they are still the pinnacle and most well respected of all chapters (fluffwise) because they follow the rules to the letter. All chapters have a flaw. I think for the Ultramarines, it's OCD. Try telling someone with OCD that they have OCD, they will write up a meticulous list of exactly why that is not true, possibly complete with diagrams, charts, quotes, and um... a codex?
Manchu wrote:If I wanted to make fun of the Space wolves, I wouldn't call their Primarch "Lemon Rust." I would . . . actually there's nothing but awesome when it comes to Space Wolves.
And I don't like the Space Wolves. It's all a matter of perspective. There will always be at least as many opinions of the various canon Chapters, particularly those most directly descended from the original Legions, as there are Space Marine players. A universal consensus on the awesomeness of anyone (except maybe the Emperor) is unattainable.
As to the name-based puns, I think poor Girly... excuse me, Guilliman, bears the brunt of those because of how peculiar his name is in the first place. Until I encountered the "Rowboat" appellation I had no earthly idea how to even begin to pronounce "Roboute."
Manchu wrote:And don't give me that "they get all the coverage" bs, either. We all know that you can build any other Codex SM army out of C:SM5th perfectly well with plenty of Chapter-specific fluffiness.
...unless you play the Iron Hands. Or want more than one chapter-specific special character without being the Boys in Blue. I will admit, though, that Tigurius, Telion, and Chronus are generic enough rules-wise that their stats can be subbed for almost any uber-psyker, uber-scout, or impressive tank commander. So from a certain perspective, the azure ones only have three times the usual amount of unique characters instead of six times... still not that much nicer.
You can build some really nice, really fluffy non-Ultra armies out of the 5E Codex, but it's undeniable that the lion's share of the book goes to the Ultras (and we all know the Lion's share ought to go to a new Dark Angels Codex... ).
Morgrim wrote:I don't like the way the greek aesthetic is done in some of the character models.
It's interesting, I actually think I'd like the Ultras a lot more if they played the Greco-Roman aesthetic up more. It's the one thing they have going for them that really makes them stand out from the crowd, and yet since they've been chosen as the generic example template marines they're usually depicted with bog-standard equipment. Meh.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:actually now that i think about it gulliman almost killed Dorn because he refused to follow the codex
It's Guilliman's response to opposition to his Codex that bothers me more than anything else about him personally. I understand that tensions must have been running unbelievably high in the wake of the Heresy, but I think ol' Robby would have a good many more supporters both in-universe and in the real world if he hadn't chosen that moment to force his vision of the future on his fellow Primarchs rather than opening the matter up for discussion.
Ironically, for all the talk of the Ultras being unlikable for being flawless, it's their Primarch's one moment of overweening arrogance that has won them my enmity more than anything else.
Manchu wrote:This is kind of off-topic, but have you ever noticed that Horus is more defined by how the other Primarchs are not like him rather than anything specific to his own personality? Using the example of Sanguinius: Horus murders Sanguinius, which is an act of rejecting the nobility of the Emperor's vision in favor of Chaos--i.e., Horus is not noble . . . unlike Sanguinius.
That's an off-topic note I can get behind. I'll admit I've not read any of the HH books directly featuring Horus, but he never did seem to have much of a personality to me, blander than Guilliman, even.
aka_tizz wrote:What i haven't seen stated around is this :
During the Great Crusade, there were 20 Legions, each 10.000 strong. That would make 200.000 Marines, plus the Guard accompanying the respective Legions and their expeditions. And those forces conquered thousands of planets.
Now, in the present 40k time, there are around 1000 Chapters, each with roughly 1000 Marines, making a total of 1.000.000(!!!) Astartes, plus the Guard. But, the splitting into Chapters has rendered this 5-times-bigger-than-the-Crusade-time number of Marines totally useless, making it impossible for any leader to attain power and use it wrongly, but also preventing them from uniting and starting another Great Crusade.
Furthermore, the Codex works only for the Astartes, and it was totally useless to prevent the rise of Vandire and his reign, while being even more useless in causing its downfall.
This is what the Codex actually did. While (arguably) preventing another (Astartes) Heresy, it also prevented the Imperium from starting campaigns of conquest of the magnitude of the Great Crusade
'kay, I think I'm going to have to actually come to the defense of Guilliman's Codex here.
There can't be another Great Crusade because the enemies now arrayed against mankind are much stronger and better entrenched than during the original Crusade, and there are no figures as powerful and charismatic as the Emperor or his Primarchs around to lead it. The division of the Legions under the Codex Astartes is insignificant in the face of all the other factors preventing another Great Crusade, and I believe that if there were anyone around capable of leading such a campaign the disparate Chapters would unite under his/her banner just as easily as full Legions might have. It's just that there isn't that sort of leader anywhere in the Imperium. If anything, the Codex has greatly helped the Imperium survive as long as it has, the scattered deployment of the myriad Chapters allowing the Marines as a whole the tactical flexibility they desperately need in order to be present on even half the battlefields that demand their expertise.
UsdiThunder wrote:The smurfs are the poster boys so most everyone's gonna hate on them. The question is why do we hate Googlyman and his smurfs.
For me Rowboat is supposed to be this great administrator and yet technology falters into religous zealotry. He should of put a boot into Mars' behind to keep technology moving forward, not backwards. I guess his book didn't have enough room to write about a subsection on maintaining of all your gear instead of just your Bolter and Power Armour.
This is worse than Battletech. This is why I am a devout Xenos Scum. We at least do not worship Toasters.
Unlike the Ecclesiarchy, the Mechanicum was already entrenched prior to the heresy, and the state of human technology was already on perilous ground. Remember that the Crusade came at the end of the Age of Strife, and by that time many of the wonders of ancient times had already been lost. Humanity was only just beginning to wade forward again, technologically speaking, when the Heresy struck, and mankind could have lost what little grasp of the mysteries of the machine it now retains if Guilliman had tried to interfere in the internal affairs of the Adeptus Mechanicus at that time. In any case, we know he could organize armies and empires. We have no idea if his alleged administrative genius would have even been applicable to the workings of the Mechanicum.
Guitardian wrote:I believe it was necessary to separate the Astartes from anything but their religious zealousy of their chapter. Mars would be included. What if a chapter of Marines pinpoint strike a Titan facility, and suddenly have all that power too? I think it was deliberate to keep them separated, which is why Techmarines (and techpriests) are kind of the intermediaries of two separate, important, yet not self sufficient entities. The division could go further down the ladder and you have a chapter who has their own Imperial Guard regiment at their disposal, their own titans, doesn't matter any more if there's only 1000 of them if theres a billion serving soldiers, tanks, titans, etc following their doctrine. That's why it was in his infinite wisdom to draw up a law by which Marines only tend to Marine matters (like tending the boltgun and the armor) and left other military matters to other branches.
Given the size and splendor of Ultramar, I would say he did pretty well for himself by restricting everyone else's ambitions... Regardless of gameplay worthiness, they are still the pinnacle and most well respected of all chapters (fluffwise) because they follow the rules to the letter. All chapters have a flaw. I think for the Ultramarines, it's OCD. Try telling someone with OCD that they have OCD, they will write up a meticulous list of exactly why that is not true, possibly complete with diagrams, charts, quotes, and um... a codex?
On the other hand, though, I'm still not calling his wisdom infinite. While I think splitting the Legions was probably ultimately the right decision, even if I'm not fond of how G-man went about it, there should really be a closer cooperation between the various arms of the Imperial military, and seeing as how he himself maintained influence over his little corner of the Imperium, who's he to say there shouldn't be close ties between Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard Regiments and Titan Legions? The deployment of Imperial forces would be so much more easily orchestrated if they didn't all have their own independent chains of command.
And on an off-topic note, it's my understanding that the majority of people suffering from OCD, or at least OCD severe enough to be diagnosable, recognize they have a problem.
I think the biggest problem with Guilliman himself as a character is that his best traits were much subtler talents than those of his brother Primarchs. He's the epic accountant standing amidst epic warriors, and he missed out on his biggest chance to prove his valor through visible awesomeness when he failed to reach the Siege of Terra. His merits end up being harder to see, and when his chapter gets relentlessly promoted as being awesome anyway, it leads to resentment from all the other SM players who can point to more concrete evidence of their Primarchs being cool.
aka_tizz wrote:What i haven't seen stated around is this :
During the Great Crusade, there were 20 Legions, each 10.000 strong. That would make 200.000 Marines, plus the Guard accompanying the respective Legions and their expeditions. And those forces conquered thousands of planets.
Now, in the present 40k time, there are around 1000 Chapters, each with roughly 1000 Marines, making a total of 1.000.000(!!!) Astartes, plus the Guard. But, the splitting into Chapters has rendered this 5-times-bigger-than-the-Crusade-time number of Marines totally useless, making it impossible for any leader to attain power and use it wrongly, but also preventing them from uniting and starting another Great Crusade.
Furthermore, the Codex works only for the Astartes, and it was totally useless to prevent the rise of Vandire and his reign, while being even more useless in causing its downfall.
This is what the Codex actually did. While (arguably) preventing another (Astartes) Heresy, it also prevented the Imperium from starting campaigns of conquest of the magnitude of the Great Crusade
wrong, raven guard had atleast 80000 and they were one of the smaller legions
However, all of them combined never reached even close to 1 000 000, and even admitting that some Chapters have less than 1 000 this number would never be comparable to pre-heresy Space Marines.
And besides, where does it say they had 80 000? It's the first time i'm hearing about this
And what about the Thousand Sons part where Ahriman says that some 1200 and something Marines had escaped, "a tenth of the Legion". That makes the Thousand Sons 12 000 strong, not anywhere near 80 000. And they weren't the smallest
I think, much like the old testament bible, a lot of numbers are lost to the ages, and more mythological than factual. When someone says 'millions' it doesn't necessarily literally mean 'millions'. Given the modern U.S. military has about 50,000 deployed and that's just in a few areas of a single planet, I would think the Legion numbers for a whole galaxy being occupied would number a lot more. It's just good propeganda to fudge the numbers in the records ("We conquered the galaxy with only a few good men!") makes their mystique that much more chuck norris-ey.
aka_tizz wrote:However, all of them combined never reached even close to 1 000 000, and even admitting that some Chapters have less than 1 000 this number would never be comparable to pre-heresy Space Marines.
And besides, where does it say they had 80 000? It's the first time i'm hearing about this
The numbers you're quoting are way off.
The Raven Guard numbered around the 80-90K mark by Isstvaan V. The Ultramarines alone had over 250, 000 marines prior to the heresy. In the immediate aftermath of the HH when the chapters were split they still had enough to form at least 23 separate chapters.
The Chaos Codex has Angron leading 50,000 Khorne Berzerkers on a 200 hundred year invasion during the "Dominion pf Fire" period post heresy.
Where as the 1k Sons at full strength were around 10,000 strong, with.. amazingly enough..... about 1,000 of them left post their scrap with the Space Wolves.
Games Workshop does not have some kind of mythic bible at Nottingham HQ that lays down the exact facts and nature of the 40k universe, and people do not consult this non-existent tomb when writing new bits of 40k fluff.
Therefore the fluff contradicts all the time. The gist is often similar across bits of fluff, but major contradiction is common. We can explain this as the ancient history of the 40k universe being known very loosely (at present day) and the tales being corrupted over the centuries.... But honestly, it's just that new fluff is not cross checked across everything ever written previously.
I think that future quotes of numbers/facts should cite the source (eg. 4th Ed codex, HH book, etc...) to stop people flinging various numbers around as corrections to everyone else's numbers
Atre wrote:I would suggest that all the numbers are bs.
Games Workshop does not have some kind of mythic bible at Nottingham HQ that lays down the exact facts and nature of the 40k universe, and people do not consult this non-existent tomb when writing new bits of 40k fluff.
Therefore the fluff contradicts all the time. The gist is often similar across bits of fluff, but major contradiction is common. We can explain this as the ancient history of the 40k universe being known very loosely (at present day) and the tales being corrupted over the centuries.... But honestly, it's just that new fluff is not cross checked across everything ever written previously.
I think that future quotes of numbers/facts should cite the source (eg. 4th Ed codex, HH book, etc...) to stop people flinging various numbers around as corrections to everyone else's numbers
except you know the books and audio books are a good source of info. raven's flight stated the raven guard went to istavaan V with 80,000 marines and left with about 5 or 6 thousand
Jimsolo wrote:If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.
That perfection is what made me read all five of the Ultramarines novels!
And yes, he is a total jerk. I love the Ultramarines, but Guilliman is a jack-off.
It makes me lolz to think that slaanesh did something good for once by having fulgrim kill him.
Of all the primarchs, guilliman is probably the most boring to me. He seems like a "daddy's little girl" Type of character. He wrote a book.....and that's it. Oh,and he got killed by those filthy slaaneshimarines. Great. If slaaneshimarines can kill you, you should have died earlier.
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TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
aka_tizz wrote:What i haven't seen stated around is this :
During the Great Crusade, there were 20 Legions, each 10.000 strong. That would make 200.000 Marines, plus the Guard accompanying the respective Legions and their expeditions. And those forces conquered thousands of planets.
Now, in the present 40k time, there are around 1000 Chapters, each with roughly 1000 Marines, making a total of 1.000.000(!!!) Astartes, plus the Guard. But, the splitting into Chapters has rendered this 5-times-bigger-than-the-Crusade-time number of Marines totally useless, making it impossible for any leader to attain power and use it wrongly, but also preventing them from uniting and starting another Great Crusade.
Furthermore, the Codex works only for the Astartes, and it was totally useless to prevent the rise of Vandire and his reign, while being even more useless in causing its downfall.
This is what the Codex actually did. While (arguably) preventing another (Astartes) Heresy, it also prevented the Imperium from starting campaigns of conquest of the magnitude of the Great Crusade
wrong, raven guard had atleast 80000 and they were one of the smaller legions
Wrong, the thousand sons had less that 5,000 in the battle for prospero, and that was their "Ultramar"
except you know the books and audio books are a good source of info. raven's flight stated the raven guard went to istavaan V with 80,000 marines and left with about 5 or 6 thousand
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm not saying that they [the books] aren't.
To clarify, when I said all the numbers are bull, I meant that numbers chosen from the fluff about total no. of marines/chapters/etc... are largely irrelevant. Not that anyone on the thread was lying.
They are numbers selected by one GW staffer writing one particular piece at one particular time. This kind of information is not cross checked when future bits of fluff are written (although I suspect the novels will become more rigorous on data checking as they produce a lengthy history for themselves) so the numbers fluctuate a fair bit between various sources.
The GW universe is not like tolkien's middle earth - the nitty gritty work on nailing down the full history of the universe hasn't occurred (and it would be a waste of time to do so). If I asked a series of GW staff what the population/economy/maximum guard tithe for the whole of segmentum tempestus I would get very different answers.
I only suggest sources so that we can see where each person got their information from. Helps reduce pointless arguments
PS. post above proves the point . WHY are the numbers that someone else stated wrong? Say WHERE you have correct figures from that show the correction. Sorry to pick on a particular person, just a useful example.
Guitardian wrote:I think, much like the old testament bible, a lot of numbers are lost to the ages, and more mythological than factual. When someone says 'millions' it doesn't necessarily literally mean 'millions'. Given the modern U.S. military has about 50,000 deployed and that's just in a few areas of a single planet, I would think the Legion numbers for a whole galaxy being occupied would number a lot more. It's just good propeganda to fudge the numbers in the records ("We conquered the galaxy with only a few good men!") makes their mystique that much more chuck norris-ey.
You might want to check your figures during the second war for Iraq the US deployed over 150,000 troops they currently have upwards of 50,000 deployed in Afghanistan alone.
understood sir, the first number is what I was referring to, but it is all pretty obvious that men numbering in the thousands can't take a single country let alone a planet. That's what I was getting at, not the details of gulf war numbers.
guilliman may have been killed by fulgrim but hey at least he fought the word bearers durring the heresy.... actually come to think of it fulgrim has taken down more primarch's then any other deamon primarch
Guitardian wrote:understood sir, the first number is what I was referring to, but it is all pretty obvious that men numbering in the thousands can't take a single country let alone a planet. That's what I was getting at, not the details of gulf war numbers.
Well, thats normal humans vs Superhuman agumented super warriors that are 8ft tall.
Besides SMs don't fight insurgents, thats what Guard are for.
Space Marines are held by most of the Impierium's populace to be invincible angels of death.
most Planetary rebellions immediatly capitulate at the appearence of a Space Marine vessel, very few will actually be willing to fight Space Marines. If the SMs actually have to fight them then it is a quick battle and the SMs hang around untill a few Guard reguiments show up to actually hold the planet.
Marines use their reputation to full effect and will gladly prove it true if needed.
Besides, if the U.S army didn't go out of its way to avoid collateral Damage like the IG and SMs the war would be over very quickly as insurgents would run out of places to hide.
And that's why Marines aren't the army of the Impeirum, the Guard is. Marines also cannot defend the Imperium, either. What htey can do is devastate vital targets.
Guitardian wrote:understood sir, the first number is what I was referring to, but it is all pretty obvious that men numbering in the thousands can't take a single country let alone a planet. That's what I was getting at, not the details of gulf war numbers.
Well, thats normal humans vs Superhuman agumented super warriors that are 8ft tall.
Besides SMs don't fight insurgents, thats what Guard are for.
Space Marines are held by most of the Impierium's populace to be invincible angels of death.
most Planetary rebellions immediatly capitulate at the appearence of a Space Marine vessel, very few will actually be willing to fight Space Marines. If the SMs actually have to fight them then it is a quick battle and the SMs hang around untill a few Guard reguiments show up to actually hold the planet.
Marines use their reputation to full effect and will gladly prove it true if needed.
Besides, if the U.S army didn't go out of its way to avoid collateral Damage like the IG and SMs the war would be over very quickly as insurgents would run out of places to hide.
ironic isn't it that that reputation started with the night lord's legion. anyone who doesn't believe that read their index astartes artical
.
obey me or be destroyed" 
).
. WHY are the numbers that someone else stated wrong? Say WHERE you have correct figures from that show the correction. Sorry to pick on a particular person, just a useful example.