I was wondering, following on from the previous 'Night Spinners' thread, whether Wraithlord units are at all better in anyway than Fire Prisms or Spinners. imo although Monstrous Creatures allow you to move & shoot heavy weapons, Wraithsight and powerful weapons shooting it down i think are the two main drawbacks with having Wraithlords . Should i start buying more Wraithlords as backup (i only have the one at the moment!), tanks, or take some completely different approach (eg. Troops)?

YmeLocSquirrel256

I don't know why an all comers list would want anything else than Fire Prisms. Prism has large blast and heavy AT weapon and Spinner has only large blast and they both cost the same. Wraithlord is way slower and you can't have same kind of flexibility with it. Of course it can have different kind of weapons but prism cannon has better anti-infantry and anti-tank capabilities than any weapon or weapon combo Wraithlord can have.

Well, it depends on the army list.
In a mech army, I'd consider fast skimmers only and in larger lists take 2 Prisms and 1 Spinner.
In a foot slogging army, the WL has its place able to give fire support (brightlance and eml).

I would agree, Star Engines as you probably know, boost all Eldar skimmer tanks by 12", and as they are already fast skimmers, can top 48" flatout with this ability. I also researched the Fire Prism's cannon, the combined power of 6 tanks in apocalypse gives out one focused shot at AP1, Strength D, Apocalyptic Barrage 6, or one dispersed shot at AP1, Strength 10, Apocalyptic Barrage 6, lol. on the other hand, wouldn't it be better to just take several guardian units in wave serpents, backed up by farseer psychic abilities ? or do both .

YmeLocSquirrel256.

I guess you mean 36'' in toto.

on the other hand, wouldn't it be better to just take several guardian units in wave serpents, backed up by farseer psychic abilities ? or do both

Well, in a mech army, troop choices are rather limited to DA or Storm Guardians in Serpents.

Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

If the list already has fire prisms then it should stick with prisms.

A Wraithlord goes well with a Guardian squad with a spiritseer in cover holding an objective. The Guardian squad gives the wraith lord a spirit seer and holds the objective to win games, while the wraithlord threatens assault based units that can't handle a T8 MC.

If a list already has 2 wraithlords I don't see the need for a single fire prism.

War Walkers are also a viable option. Their firepower is staggering.

What about adding a unit of wraithguard? they can also be potentially deadly, and can also have a spiritseer to save those wraithsight rolls. imo i would rather have a unit of these with a spiritseer, and if you add a Farseer casting Fortune upon them, you do have one very tough unit. i haven't got any yet though, and its a shame you can't put them in falcons. War walkers, they're ok, yet like the Wraithlord, can be shot down quite quickly, and can usually be easily spotted when your opponent is checking LOS. The only advantages here are the Scouts rule and the cheap point price, but they aren't really much of an advantage, technically. imo i would think overall, that fire prisms would be better anyway. The vypers are alright i feel, they are pretty much cheap wave serpents without the troop transport and twin-linked powerful weapon bits.

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, Wraithguard are good in a Iyanden list.
Then I'd consider a unit of 10 Wraithguard led by a Spiritseer with conceal.
I'd add some Guardian units for giving fire support, two Wraithlords (BL, EML), 3 War Walkers with scatter lasers, and Harlies (with kisses) led by a Shadowseer for counter strike.

Depends on the points limit, imo I would really recommend a Farseer with Fortune and one or two Fire Prisms though, cause otherwise the army will start to fall apart.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault. Both Night Spinners and Fire Prisms would give me more pause. I'm not really a fan of needing two or more heavy support slots to accomplish one shot, but it is a nice option. I'd probably give two fire prisms and a night spinner a try if I were playing Eldar, but War Walkers are also great, if extremely fragile.

Kroot Loops wrote:It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault.

How?

I can't think of any way that could be possible, unless you are using Thraka and a squad of Nobs w/ PKs. If you could explain how a unit that strikes at Ini 1, with no more than 7 attacks, can demolish 6 T8 wounds, and 4 T6 wounds with a 4++ RR... Thraka can't assault more than one unit at a time, unless you are using a squad of something else to force fearless wounds, by winning the combat against all 3 units collectively.

I call hokey, but feel free to clarify how you actually accomplished this.

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Fast Skimmers can move 24" flat out. Star Engines add 12". Eldar Fast Skimmers can move a maximum of 36" in a single turn.

Sorry i must have mis-read the rulebook. thanks though!

YmeLocSquirrel256

Wrexasaur wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault.

How?

I can't think of any way that could be possible, unless you are using Thraka and a squad of Nobs w/ PKs. If you could explain how a unit that strikes at Ini 1, with no more than 7 attacks, can demolish 6 T8 wounds, and 4 T6 wounds with a 4++ RR... Thraka can't assault more than one unit at a time, unless you are using a squad of something else to force fearless wounds, by winning the combat against all 3 units collectively.

I call hokey, but feel free to clarify how you actually accomplished this.

Thraka has a 2+ invulnerable on the Waagh!, hits WL on 3's, wounds on 2's. models in b2b contact with multiple units at the start of an assault phase may split their attacks between them, declared before attacks are rolled. In the first combat phase with a 5/2 split on the WL, you usually kill one and wound the other (I've even killed both before with a 4/3 split and a lot of luck), usually taking no wounds and winning combat by 4-5, apply fearless wounds.

The 2+ invulnerable applies to the next player's turn as well, and with a 3/2 split on WL/Avatar, both are often dead at this point. If not, still typically won combat by 2-3, apply fearless wounds.

If the Avatar is still alive at this point, turn 3 is clean up. Thraka goes back to a 5+ invulnerable save at this point and will likely take some wounds, but the Avatar is highly unlikely to survive this many rounds. As to a 4++ re-roll, never seen it, either my opponent doesn'y use one of the Avatar's special rules, or you are assuming it will be fortuned.

One of the local Eldar players liked to run WL's and Avatar as an assault deterrent, when I first started playing Orks they blew through those MC with utter ease. I tend to keep the Nobz away from the WL since it causes instant death, but the Avatar is fair game for them if I want to split Thraka off to take the WL with a little less risk. However I am confident enough in Thraka that I usually don't bother.

Kroot Loops wrote:Thraka has a 2+ invulnerable on the Waagh!, hits WL on 3's, wounds on 2's. models in b2b contact with multiple units at the start of an assault phase may split their attacks between them, declared before attacks are rolled. In the first combat phase with a 5/2 split on the WL, you usually kill one and wound the other (I've even killed both before with a 4/3 split and a lot of luck), usually taking no wounds and winning combat by 4-5, apply fearless wounds.

Is there a rule that actually explains that? I can't find anything that confirms what you are saying. IC's have to move into assault before a squad they are with, and they can be targeted independently when in a squad. That seems to be the long and short of it, not sure what you are actually referencing.

The 2+ invulnerable applies to the next player's turn as well, and with a 3/2 split on WL/Avatar, both are often dead at this point. If not, still typically won combat by 2-3, apply fearless wounds.

Assuming that Thraka can somehow attack more than one model per assault phase, somehow...

First turn, you will need 6 attacks on the 2 WL, to average four wounds, as long as you get your 2+ to wound. That leaves one attack against the Avatar, which works out to .25 wounds per turn, without fortune; .125 with fortune. That puts Thraka well within being absolutely useless, the second turn; with nothing but a single dead WL to show for it.

If the Avatar is still alive at this point, turn 3 is clean up. Thraka goes back to a 5+ invulnerable save at this point and will likely take some wounds, but the Avatar is highly unlikely to survive this many rounds. As to a 4++ re-roll, never seen it, either my opponent doesn'y use one of the Avatar's special rules, or you are assuming it will be fortuned.

Now we can factor in the attacks from the WL + Avatar. WL with swords are 100 points, and a great way to fill up on cheap MC's; 4 with the Avatar, in total.

(Assault round 1, phase 1)
4 attacks from the WL w/ RR, 3 hits, 3 wounds, .5 wounds/turn. Nothing special.
4 attacks from the Avatar, 2.6 hits, 1.7 wounds, .29 wounds/turn. Again nothing special, but a decent chance overall to get a wound through that pesky 2++ save.
(Assault round 1, phase 2)
If you manage to kill a WL, then the chance to break the 2++ save, goes from about 79%, down to 54%. Still not bad if you ask me, two chances to get two wounds, means they can drop two wounds onto an IC, that is ridiculously hard to damage for one turn of the game. Not 5 or 6 turns... just one.

(Assault round 2, phase 1)
No more 2++ save...
We will assume that Thraka has killed both WL, which would actually make a lot of sense. He CAN last two phases of combat, and he can drop 2 WL w/o use of some assault rule that I haven't managed to find. Again point that out to me when you find it.

Avatar hits first, 4 attacks, 2.6 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.7 wounds.
At this point, Ghaz has taken about 3 wounds total (average). 2 WL are dead, and Ghaz has basically earned his points back; good job Ghaz. Unfortunately, the Avatar has taken something like 1 wound, and less than that with fortune. The Avatar has also done his job, and Ghaz was probably better off attacking something else. If Ghaz manages to lock the Avatar up for the whole game, that is what matters. I don't think there is any situation where Ghaz is great counter to an Avatar, simply because of the 4++ constant save. With fortune on the Avatar, Ghaz will fail terribly.

One of the local Eldar players liked to run WL's and Avatar as an assault deterrent, when I first started playing Orks they blew through those MC with utter ease. I tend to keep the Nobz away from the WL since it causes instant death, but the Avatar is fair game for them if I want to split Thraka off to take the WL with a little less risk. However I am confident enough in Thraka that I usually don't bother.

If you can somehow fight two WL, and avoid the Avatar, then Ghaz is going to be the star of the game, he is amazing against WL. How are you able to get 3 MCs into combat, with one model? I don't get that... even two MCs doesn't make any sense. If your opponent is throwing WL into combat with Ghaz, then they are basically throwing those units away. It appears that you are getting the charge though...

No experienced Eldar player would throw WL into combat with any Warboss, or even a squad of Boyz with a PK Nob (unless they have mind war to pop the PK Nob ). Speaking of which, sluggas with a PK nob are a better way to lock down and chomp up WL in general. Grots can simply tarpit MCs for the entire game, if they manage to do well on LD tests. Large squads of Boyz are fearless, and you can get a BP/PK Nob either way. WL are not great against infantry heavy armies, but they are really quite cheap, and they come with 2 flamers. One good shot with flamers, will make them well worth their points.

Roasty toasty Orks.

The rule you're looking for is on page 41 of the BRB, under attacking.

Why would I place an attack on the Avatar? The idea is to kill the stuff with no invulnerable and force the fearless wounds onto whatever is left standing.

I've given you the results of my experience, but now lets do the theoryhammer.

On average Thraka will cause four wounds and take one.

Fearless wounds (which you failed to factor in I believe) will cause a further .99 wounds to WL and 1.5 to Avatar (I've never had my opponent cast fortune on it. Not a bad idea, but hasn't happened yet).

At this point when phase 2 commences, one or both WL are dead (depending on if it was 3/1 for wounds or 2/2) and the avatar has a wound.

Now the Avatar causes .29 wounds, Thraka causes 1.05. The Avatar has two wounds.

Fearless saves: .5 wound to the Avatar

after this, on average, they are going to trade 1 wound each. The Avatar will run out of wounds while Thraka still has one left.

As for the how, I didn't say it was something that would normally happen, or that resulted from good tactics. Using the 27" Waagh Assault gets you there, and he tended to bunch them together in a shallow U shape at a choke point, with the idea that no one would want to assault all three. Thraka's base is large enough to get in there and touch all three bases in that particular scenario (and yes, he has learned not to do this anymore).

Kroot Loops wrote:The rule you're looking for is on page 41 of the BRB, under attacking.

Understood, never took the time to think about that one too much. My bad.

As for the how, I didn't say it was something that would normally happen, or that resulted from good tactics. Using the 27" Waagh Assault gets you there, and he tended to bunch them together in a shallow U shape at a choke point, with the idea that no one would want to assault all three. Thraka's base is large enough to get in there and touch all three bases in that particular scenario (and yes, he has learned not to do this anymore).

Makes sense.

Fearless wounds (which you failed to factor in I believe) will cause a further .99 wounds to WL and 1.5 to Avatar (I've never had my opponent cast fortune on it. Not a bad idea, but hasn't happened yet).

All MCs will get a 3+ save against that. That bit makes a pretty big difference, and it is hard to rely on such a minimal advantage. Head to head, and when Ghaz has no save, the Avatar will do more damage than Ghaz; as well as hitting first. If Ghaz can get into combat with an avatar w/o fortune, the first two round with his 2++ save along with the extra attacks, are all between him and losing to the Avatar. Ghaz annihilates tanks/infantry ICs, but he is not particularly good against the Avatar.

The .99 is after saves (3 woundsx.33), so each surviving MC, including the Avatar, takes a wound

Avatar gets 4 attacks, hits on 3's (2.64 hits), wounds on 3's (1.74 wounds) and Ghaz gets a 5++ (1.17 wounds)

Ghaz gets 5 attacks, hits on 4's (2.5 hits) Wounds on 2's (2.1 wounds) and the Avatar gets a 4++ (1.05 wounds).

As you can see, they do indeed trade one wound back and forth. The two phases with Ghaz's 2++ will set him up to win that fight on average.

Which is why I essentially agreed with you, but noted that with fortune, the Avatar will win that fight easily. All saves are RRs, so your reliance on fearless wounds is basically irrelevant. Ghaz really needs to make his bonus assault attacks count, beyond which he uses a one turn invuln as a crutch. He will fair decently against an un-fortuned Avatar, but do piss poor against a fortuned one.

This is assuming that you will tell your opponent to use fortune pretty much all game, on the avatar. It is the main reason why the Avatar is worth his points; because he benefits so greatly from fortune. Avatar with, and without fortune, are two entirely different ballgames.

You should mention that to your opponent.
I dare say that an Avatar w/ fortune, would absolutely LOVE to spoon with Ghaz, any day of the week.

Fire prisms are great, but belong more in a mech list.

As Wustenflux said, WL's are excellent in a foot slogging list. They provide counter assault, anti horde (with flamers) and anti tank with the EML/BL set up (which I think is the best way to run them).

I run three of them in my footdar list and they are a corner stone of th elist. They are excellent, IMO.

As with pretty much every unit in this game though, the more the merrier. If you go Prisms, take three. If you go WL's, take three. Redundancy and target saturation increases survivability and effectiveness of all units.

Wrexasaur wrote:Which is why I essentially agreed with you, but noted that with fortune, the Avatar will win that fight easily. All saves are RRs, so your reliance on fearless wounds is basically irrelevant. Ghaz really needs to make his bonus assault attacks count, beyond which he uses a one turn invuln as a crutch. He will fair decently against an un-fortuned Avatar, but do piss poor against a fortuned one.

This is assuming that you will tell your opponent to use fortune pretty much all game, on the avatar. It is the main reason why the Avatar is worth his points; because he benefits so greatly from fortune. Avatar with, and without fortune, are two entirely different ballgames.

You should mention that to your opponent.
I dare say that an Avatar w/ fortune, would absolutely LOVE to spoon with Ghaz, any day of the week.

lol, I'll tell him. Then I'll hit the Avatar with the entire nob squad or ignore it till I kill the farseer

Reecius wrote:Fire prisms are great, but belong more in a mech list.

As Wustenflux said, WL's are excellent in a foot slogging list. They provide counter assault, anti horde (with flamers) and anti tank with the EML/BL set up (which I think is the best way to run them).

I run three of them in my footdar list and they are a corner stone of th elist. They are excellent, IMO.

WL are pretty cool. Mine have been particularly unlucky.
Maybe I am asking for too much, but they seem to need an invulnerable save. T8 is awesome against low strength weaponry, but pretty meh against AT guns. Lascannons. Statistically they aren't bad against lascannons and such, considering the multiple wounds; but they crumple to PKs and the like. Access to a 5+ invuln shield to go with the sword, would be a great addition to a new codex IMO. Along with assault options for WG... ahem.

As with pretty much every unit in this game though, the more the merrier. If you go Prisms, take three. If you go WL's, take three. Redundancy and target saturation increases survivability and effectiveness of all units.

If you are using an Avatar, I would recommend 3 swordlords. If you are going more shooty, I would much prefer taking a squad of 3 WW, to a third WL. A BL/EML WL is not going to be great against transports, and their role will fall cleanly within taking out AV13-14 tanks; none of which are AV13+. I am pretty sure that WL perform best when shooting at AV13, not AV14 (EML is kinda wasted, really). With 24 s6 shots that you can outflank, is a great way to add anti-transport/anti-cover, to your force.

It sucks that WW are so expensive, but I like the models either way. WL are cool models too.

About the Nightspinner, I have absolutely no idea. I am not convinced by the doomsayers, but I don't really see a solid use for the weapon itself. It's redeeming value is rending/TERRAIN EXTRAVAGANZA! (it would be funny to use 3 NS, just to piss off swarm armies ). Rending isn't that great when units get a cover save in most situations. For that matter, prisms aren't great either, but they really do their jobs quite well. The ability to snipe out assault termie squads, with a hefty chance to simply pop a LR instead, is nothing to sniff at. Large S6 AP3 templates are serious business as well.

Nightspinners are interesting, if nothing else.

Kroot Loops wrote:lol, I'll tell him. Then I'll hit the Avatar with the entire nob squad or ignore it till I kill the farseer

Lmao.

Footslogging Eldar have it tough against mechanized Orks. True story.

I agree MC need something (both WL and TMC). If the nids are anything to go by the WL will probably get more wounds (although maybe a T reduction?) but they seem reluctant to hand out Invulnerable saves to them so far. On the one hand I can understand that as against regular strength shooting they can be very difficult to wound, but in todays lists crammed with anti-tank weapons, there is usually plenty of fire power to bring them down.

As to the Nightspinner, I really like the idea of the tank. I understand quite a few people don't like it, but it seems like it would be very handy, although actual table experience might sway that one way or the other.

WL don't need an invul at all, IMO. Although, the shield idea sounds pretty damn cool and it would look awesome, too.

I run the Avatar/Eldrad and 3 WL's with flamers, B.Lance and EML.

I always make sure the WL's have a cover save, which goes miles to keeping them alive. And, as for fists, PK's, use Eldrad to mind war them first, then charge the WL in and he now tarpits the entire unit.

I love mine, they shoot first, and are counter assault second. I also keep a unit of harlies lurking in the backfield to go where needed too, which certainly helps.

Wraithlords are also a pretty good deal for the points. While one of the few non-overcosted eldar units, they're still far cheaper than most things that can handle them.

Yes I agree, and the second best way to run them, IMO, is with just a wraith sword. At that set up, they are only 100 points. Take three with the Avatar, and run them up the board, that is a pain train that most armies will be hard pressed to stop.

I use two squadrons of three warwalkers in any event. They are too good to pass up, a staggering twenty-four strength six shots per squadron.

Don't be fooled, they can be durable, if you use a serpent as mobile cover, then you have three walkers with cover saves, killing whatever they point at. Outflanking is also an option, depending on the enemy...

Night Spinners exist to make things interesting (read: irritating) to your opponent. Eldar don't often get to use good-ranged indirect fire (I have seen few people field Eldar artillery pieces, even at low points levels, and the Farseer power Eldritch Storm leaves something to be desired due to its poor range). The 12-72" range is just wonderful, and it's handy that the gun is twin-linked. It's a vague threat to transports and certain vehicles with lower side armour values, but the threat is there- your points are not entirely wasted if you come up against a wall of Chimeras/Rhinos/Predators. Besides, you can call down a St6 blast roughly anywhere on the board with little fear of retaliation or granting cover saves, and armies like Guard/Tyranids/Chaos Daemons will hate you for this. You can move 12" and shoot, letting you evade pursuit (and letting you skimp on upgrades- why buy holo-fields if you'll barely be shot at?).

If anything the Night Spinner looks like it was meant to be used in tandem with a pair of Fire Prisms. The Prisms circle around the target transport, and either unleash The One True Shot or two templates, whatever, the transport has a good chance of popping. When it does, the Night Spinner is there, and it will make the cowardly infantry's life difficult (teehee). Is this a truly efficient use of the firepower available to you? Popping one transport and mangling its contents every couple turns (accounting for misses/cover saves/bad damage rolls)? Maybe not. But at least the gift of indirect fire lets you respond to new threats from Deep Striking/Outflanking/Reserved infantry without having to spend a turn maneuvering into position. How cool is THAT?

Also consider the evil uses of the Doomweaver's side effect, "Monofilament Web of Manglement" or whatever, the one that makes the victim suffer difficult/dangerous terrain next time it moves. Doing this has the obvious effect of forcing vehicles to risk immobilization. Which isn't likely. But! If you target bike squads, I'm fairly sure you can prevent them from turbo-boosting next turn, so they can't simply flee when your other units get near, they can't do last-minute objective denials as well, and they can't get a 3+ cover save against, oh, how about a pair of Fire Prism templates? Someone really oughtta check the BRB to be sure, but I think I remember bikes can't turbo-boost through difficult terrain...

Wrexasaur wrote:
If you are using an Avatar, I would recommend 3 swordlords. If you are going more shooty, I would much prefer taking a squad of 3 WW, to a third WL. A BL/EML WL is not going to be great against transports, and their role will fall cleanly within taking out AV13-14 tanks; none of which are AV13+. I am pretty sure that WL perform best when shooting at AV13, not AV14 (EML is kinda wasted, really). With 24 s6 shots that you can outflank, is a great way to add anti-transport/anti-cover, to your force.

I have one Wraithlord with wraithsword, and eldar missile launcher, is it worth getting another two with the same setup, and an avatar? Bear in mind they are great at taking out tanks and infantry alike, and they can still be fired while the wraithlord is walking. Really, though, the trouble with wraithlords is that they are slow, and when you deploy them at the front due to how slow these things are, LOS is almost easy, a twin-linked lascannon or two could easily blow up a couple of wraithlords. The Night Spinner, as far as I can see, is a sort of confused Fire Prism. sure the doomweaver is twin-linked, and its range as long as the Fire Prism's, but the strength isn't that great, and you can't combine them, although that's probably why the made it a rending weapon instead. In the end I would agree, that a couple of Fire Prisms, and a Night Spinner will provide a strong force in a 40K game. imo one Night Spinner is enough, even in an Apocalypse game. What do you people think about this?

YmeLocSquirrel256

. In the end I would agree, that a couple of Fire Prisms, and a Night Spinner will provide a strong force in a 40K game. imo one Night Spinner is enough, even in an Apocalypse game. What do you people think about this?

Well, I second this, one Night Spinner should be enough, fill the other 2 HS slots with Prisms.
In Apoc games, I really don't know as there are more options (squadrons) ...

I took a peek at an apocalypse rulebook, on a trip to warhammer world in nottingham, and the heavy support based squadrons mainly consist of 4 fire prisms and 1 command fire prism (usually at the pricing of all 5 fire prisms + 25pts), or something like that, but in apocalypse, you can create your own datasheets, as long as it is agreed with your opponent(s). no GW-made night spinner apocalypse datasheets as far as I can see. Possibly have 2 fire prism squadrons and 1 night spinner squadron, rather than 2 fire prisms and 1 night spinner in apoc . I haven't seen any for Wraith-related stuff either, although another model popular in Apocalypse is that Avatar again. One Apoc unit available is Avatar + All Phoenix Lords + Another small point price.

YmeLocSquirrel256

I would rather take 3 prisms than 2 prisms and a Nightspinner. I see nothing that a spinner would give me that Prism doesn't. You can argue that spinner might be good against footsloggers but I ain't seeing those much anyways and they aren't really a threat to a full mech fast skimmer army. Also nightspinners area denial is pretty moot point when prism can pop vehicles so easily. I would take a falcon rather than a spinner but as I said there aren't any foot armies around here.

Well, the other thread 'Night Spinner ?' shows that these tanks are eventually good vs. vehicle squadrons,
since if a tanks fails the dangerous terrain test, there is
half a chance to get a destroyed result (immobilized -> destroyed in squadrons).
Moreover, Bikes cannot turbo boost through dangerous terrain. Ouch!

Atherse wrote:
I would rather take 3 prisms than 2 prisms and a Nightspinner. I see nothing that a spinner would give me that Prism doesn't. You can argue that spinner might be good against footsloggers but I ain't seeing those much anyways and they aren't really a threat to a full mech fast skimmer army. Also nightspinners area denial is pretty moot point when prism can pop vehicles so easily. I would take a falcon rather than a spinner but as I said there aren't any foot armies around here.

I suppose in the end it's your choice. The armour is the same for all four tanks, they can all move just as fast, all have twin-linked shuriken pistols (upgradable to a single shuriken cannon), its only the main weapon, and the point price, based upon that.

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the other thread 'Night Spinner ?' shows that these tanks are eventually good vs. vehicle squadrons,
since if a tanks fails the dangerous terrain test, there is
half a chance to get a destroyed result (immobilized -> destroyed in squadrons).
Moreover, Bikes cannot turbo boost through dangerous terrain. Ouch!

But why would you need to take it? You shouldn't need to take one anyway (the monofilament cannon in the Night Spinner being an exception). Jetbikes, Skimmers, and Jump Infantry can fly over any difficult/dangerous terrain, as long as they don't land on it. If it isn't one of those, you would simply avoid it wouldn't you?

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, its meant the other way round.

Jetbikes, Skimmers, and Jump Infantry can fly over any difficult/dangerous terrain, as long as they don't land on it. If it isn't one of those, you would simply avoid it wouldn't you?

If a monofilament cannon hits such a unit it counts as being in difficult/dangerous terrain.

Well, yes.

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about any of the Aspect Warriors? Should any of them be included in some of my future army lists? The Striking Scorpions seem reasonably good, especially the Exarch's Scorpion's Claw. Thanks for all of the advice so far!

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Meched Fire Dragons are the best elite choice. Scorpions don't have power weapons on everyone and claw is only s6. Banshees are bit better but still only s3. Dire Avengers are ok meched troops. I'd avoid reapers, hawks, shining spears, scorpions and spiders. Banshees can't charge from serpent and if they just walk around they risk getting shot to dust. Fire Dragons at least shoot at their targets before they get wiped.

Ok... Are you basing this also against the facts that swooping hawks carry haywire grenades? 1 D6 for every Hawk that performs Deep Strike at any time. 2+ is a glancing hit, 6+ a penetrating hit. Like the Fire Dragons, they can be great at taking out tanks. And Striking Scorpions, i mean, surely mandiblasters and scorpion chainswords will made a difference to the model's attacks no doubt. 15 attacks is obviously better than 5! Honestly, who cares if they all have a power weapon or not?

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

YmeLocSquirrel256

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Ok... Are you basing this also against the facts that swooping hawks carry haywire grenades? 1 D6 for every Hawk that performs Deep Strike at any time. 2+ is a glancing hit, 6+ a penetrating hit. Like the Fire Dragons, they can be great at taking out tanks. And Striking Scorpions, i mean, surely mandiblasters and scorpion chainswords will made a difference to the model's attacks no doubt. 15 attacks is obviously better than 5! Honestly, who cares if they all have a power weapon or not?
Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

YmeLocSquirrel256

It is true that 5-10 haywire hits can do damage. But for over 20 points per model for 1 attack and grenades? No thanks. I'd start to fill the FA slot for very last after everything else is already bought. And then I would take vypers not hawks. And what would you assault with your scorpions? They can't really hurt heavy melee units like terminators and TWC. Also Fire Dragons with flamer exarch are cheaper and still can do their trick the turn they are disembarking (turn of FD shooting is going to hurt anyone). Scorpions would have to stand for a turn (pistol fire doesn't really count). Of course you can infiltrate them if you want to pay even more, but thet still aren't that killy, also one dread can ruin your whole squad.

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Add Terminators to that list, they show up far more than those units.

There are actually quite a few units in which all the model CAN have power weapons (or fists) but most of the time its overkill, your better off keeping a few ablative wounds and saving some points. In any case simply having a full squad of power weapons isn't very helpful when they struggle to get into combat in the first place (T3, 4+ and hard to assault out of a transport) and once they do they struggle to wound anything.

wuestenfux wrote:

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Also DE Incubi and Ork Nobz with all pk setup.

Aetherse wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Also DE Incubi and Ork Nobz with all pk setup.

Banshees. But back to the topic...

What about Rangers for capturing objectives? They aren't the best unit in the game by a mile, i admit, and their point price, like the Swooping Hawks, it is just as steep, yet the Pathfinders rule after adding 5pts for each model in the unit AFAIK allows them to improve their cover save by 2+, get the Scouts special rule, and ignore difficult terrain. Or is there some other unit worth considering and discussing we've missed?

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, if you want Rangers then upgrade them to Pathfinders.
Take a 5 men squad and deploy it on top of the objective.
If you have to move them you eventually did something wrong.

However, Pathfinders are threatened by outflankers and cover-save ignoring weapons.

True and true. Couldn't agree with you more.

YmeLocSquirrel256

You should rename this thread to war walkers.

They have more killing power then any of the other heavy support slots, they can outflank (a good trick to have, if seldom used)...

They can be nasty to get out if they have a cover save.

They are a bargain.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

You should rename this thread to war walkers.

They have more killing power then any of the other heavy support slots, they can outflank (a good trick to have, if seldom used)...

They can be nasty to get out if they have a cover save.

They are a bargain.

Woah, hang on a minute, they're easy to spot with LOS, only two weapons available, and movement isn't that great. Also, these can get shot down very quickly, as I said previously in this thread if i can recall correctly...

YmeLocSquirrel wrote:
War walkers, they're ok, yet like the Wraithlord, can be shot down quite quickly, and can usually be easily spotted when your opponent is checking LOS. The only advantages here are the Scouts rule and the cheap point price, but they aren't really much of an advantage, technically. imo i would think overall, that fire prisms would be better anyway.

I simply feel they are a waste of points imo.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

"Two weapons available"? The Fire Prism has two weapons available if you count the shuriken cannon. Ditto for the Night Spinner. A Falcon has three. Ditto for *snicker* artillery. A Wraithlord might have four weapons available to him in the middle of combat, but he won't have many shots per turn, unless your opponent throws flammable things in front of him. The unit of War Walkers, on the other hand, will have six weapons between them. If one gets wrecked, you still have four heavy weapons. If you want raw heavy weapon firepower, you can get six missile launchers at 210 points for the squadron, or six scatter lasers for 180 points. If you're a big enough smartass to have a Farseer sit there and guide + fortune the unit, those War Walkers will flatout kill stuff. Even without the Farseer, if you stick them in cover (trees, weird buildings, behind corners, etc), they will go far.

Outflanking doesn't do much for their survivability, true, but you DO have the option to ensure you will get triple the firepower of a Wraithlord for one turn into a target. Unless you're really cunning, it might be a waste of points if you choose that, though, so it's usually easier to just stick them in cover and A) Kill lots of stuff for a decent amount of time, or, if there's something blocking the line of sight for your War Walkers, B) Seriously threatening area denial. No opponent wants to go around a corner and face six EML shots or 24 scatter laser shots, even with a transport. The odds of a 'vehicle explodes' being rolled goes way up when it's a single unit getting in that many shots, and that means the risk of lots of dead guardsmen or a few Khorne Berserkers- either way it's a nasty threat.

Out of cover, War Walkers aren't so hot- they CAN be shot down pretty quickly. But...you're not going to use them the same as you would use Wraithlords, right?

Problem with WW is that they are really an one trick pony. They come in, shoot once and then take a beating they can't really take. Only thing you can do with WW is to shoot. With any tank you can shoot, tank shock and contest objectives (if they are still around in the end). If I want extra heavy weapons I kit my serpents instead of wasting my points to get a turn of shooting that might or might not be around when I need it.

Aetherse wrote:Problem with WW is that they are really an one trick pony. They come in, shoot once and then take a beating they can't really take. Only thing you can do with WW is to shoot. With any tank you can shoot, tank shock and contest objectives (if they are still around in the end). If I want extra heavy weapons I kit my serpents instead of wasting my points to get a turn of shooting that might or might not be around when I need it.

They can also assault as a follow-up with good results...

It is easy to get them a cover save, so you now have three walkers with a cover save, nothing with 36" range will easily take those out. Why do they have to "come in"? They can easily just start on the table.

Wasting points...? Serpent, one shot can kill, walkers, need alot more shots to kill.

If you're within rapid-fire range, you're doing something wrong.

@YmeLoc

Just because you disagree, my point is invalid?

They cannot be shot down easily, while they can be seen easily with LoS, they can easily be given a cover save. That would make them hard to kill.

Fire prisms can never put out as much hurt as the walkers, no matter how you spin it.

You may think they're a waste of points, though I have a tally of opponents who rightfully fear my walkers.

Con Carne wrote:
"Two weapons available"? The Fire Prism has two weapons available if you count the shuriken cannon.

With 'two weapons available, here I meant the War Walker, Con Carne!

Con Carne wrote:
Out of cover, War Walkers aren't so hot- they CAN be shot down pretty quickly. But...you're not going to use them the same as you would use Wraithlords, right?

Well, technically, because Wraithlords and War Walkers are just so slow, you can barely do anything with them, regardless of Strength, Toughness and Wounds stats, as they will get blown up by any powerful weaponry. If I can also recall correctly...

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Really, though, the trouble with wraithlords is that they are slow, and when you deploy them at the front due to how slow these things are, LOS is almost easy, a twin-linked lascannon or two could easily blow up a couple of wraithlords.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is that wraithlords and war walkers nearly always get killed in the first couple of turns and are a bit of a waste of points AFAIK.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

They can also assault as a follow-up with good results...

It is easy to get them a cover save, so you now have three walkers with a cover save, nothing with 36" range will easily take those out. Why do they have to "come in"? They can easily just start on the table.

Wasting points...? Serpent, one shot can kill, walkers, need alot more shots to kill.

If you're within rapid-fire range, you're doing something wrong.

Small arms are problem with outflanking, and don't get started with assaulting with that av and ws 3 (gutted fire warriors might lose but not anyone else). WW in cover isn't nearly as fragile but still ain't very tough. And they can still only shoot. 18 EML is nothing to laugh at but with bs 3 you miss half of the time and in few turns the enemy will be in your face. That 4+ cover save ain't gonna save you from heavy bolters and multilasers when you are only AV 10.
Also outflankers and deep strikers are neutralizing the whole squad when they touch it skimmer can at least can zoom away.

Yes walkers might get taken out during the first few turns, if you're unlucky, however they already would have killed whatever they needed to and then some.
I rarely go a game with my walkers getting destroyed...

Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

Wrexasaur wrote:Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

That basically sums things up.

They can always get cover if you have a wave serpent though!

Wraithguard can provide cover to both WL and WW, as well as being troops with access to a 5+ cover save of their own. I am not a huge fan of hybrid lists, as they always seem to be very tricky to use. If a tank is providing cover, then it isn't being a transport, which is the strong-suit of an expensive Eldar skimmer.

It is interesting to note that while S. laser WWs benefit substantially from guide, only EML WWs benefit from guide AND doom. EML kind of suck against units in cover, when you don't use doom. On the other hand, EML are much more flexible overall, given their range and ability to perform most AT/AI roles. S. lasers are still more cost effective against Meq units in general though. AP4 can be pretty substantial if you can get shots against units w/o cover, but there aren't a whole lot of units that suffer against AP4 weaponry.

Pinning is an afterthought... really. 6 EML on one squad is nothing to take serious note of.

You may think they're a waste of points, though I have a tally of opponents who rightfully fear my walkers.

They are not a waste of points. Especially if they are guided they can dish out serious damage.
And if they go down I really don't care. Its usually the most expendable unit in the list.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:
Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

That basically sums things up.

They can always get cover if you have a wave serpent though!

wuestenfux wrote:
They are not a waste of points. Especially if they are guided they can dish out serious damage.
And if they go down I really don't care. Its usually the most expendable unit in the list.

Well, I suppose a wave serpent would only compete if it was twice the weaponry for the same price. Tell you what, i'll meet you people half way, its not the one I'd go for in apoc, based on limited movement, and weaponry, but i would say it's good enough value for money in normal games of 40K, due to the cheapness of the model, and it's effect against normal 40K units.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Well, in 1500 pts I recently fielded a squadron of 3 War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Cheap and effective.

Looks like this is a useful unit for games of 40K then!

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also hadn't realized that War Walkers could have shuriken cannons, lol.

YmeLocSquirrel256.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing the subject, I forgot to mention, there is an apocalypse formation for the Night Spinner

Only Siam-Hann get a Fire Prism squadron though, but i'm sure a bit of 'counts as' will work fine!
Consider:


YmeLocSquirrel256.

The walkers get an apocalypse formation that lets them pop up and fire all their weapons twice, 48 shots from one squadron!

What about WW with Scatter Lasers and Bright Lance each? Thats 15 shots the wound most stuff on a 2+....not to bad VS troops, not to bad VS say Tyranid MC's, and good VS light armor......also with the 3 Bright Lances can still kill heavy armor. Both weapons are 36" not to bad range wise.....and outflank placement of models on board edge and 6" move..... Any thoughts?

You dont want to mix the weapons on a unit of war walkers, some of thier shots will tend to be wasted if you do.

A mix of BL and scatter lasers arent good against heavy armor...the scatter lasers are wasted. Against regular infantry the BL is a single BS 3 shot which will yield one dead basic infantry less than half the time.

If you want variable capabilites on the walkers take EML, can be used against anything and as a bonus give you another 12" of range.


Sliggoth

I prefer Eldar Missile launchers on my WLs and WWs (due to the fact you can choose between plasma and krak), the other weapon being a starcannon (on my WWs), and a wraithsword (on my WLs).

YmeLocSquirrel256.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, let's sum up the discussion so far. At the moment, based on what we have discussed, we think I should take, regardless of points cost:

HQ:

1 Farseer w/Fortune
1 Autarch? (Bear in mind I took 5 wounds off a Trygon Prime (6 wounds) in 1 turn with one of these and it's fusion gun. He was on a jetbike w/ a Laser lance as well (which I never use))

Elites:

5 Fire Dragons w/Exarch w/Firepike
5 Wraithguard w/Warlock w/Spiritseer upgrade
Harlequins? (as wuestenfux pointed out earlier, needs more discussion)


APCs:

1 Wave Serpent (imo w/ twin-linked Eldar ML, shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines)

Troops:

10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)
10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)

Fast Attack:

Vyper? (Definitely needs discussing)

Heavy Support

2 Fire Prisms w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.
1 Night Spinner w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.

Sorry if I have got anything wrong, so do correct me! Also, please post anything we've missed, or you think needs changing/removing. hth.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

So long as you can keep it somewhere safe, the Night Spinner really doesn't need upgrades...oh, what the hell, may as well keep the shuriken cannon in case you need to put an ounce more firepower into a squad of infantry. Keep in mind it's BS 3, and I don't think the shuricannon is twin-linked.

Do the Fire Dragons get the APC, or the Wraithguard?

If you're not going for any other units with Wraithsight, there's no need to get the Spiritseer upgrade. I'm pretty confident that the Wraithguard in the same unit as the Warlock will be within 6" him. And...if you're going to get 5 Wraithguard without a transport, why not upgrade to 10 of them to, you know, make them a Troops choice to complement the guardians? What do you plan to do with them?

Who's the Farseer Fortuning?

Your list is going to be mostly on foot? If so, and if you're taking a troops choice load of Wraithguard, Harlequins are your ideal counterassault unit, and be sure to add a Shadowseer to keep them safer.

Is it a hybrid list? What's your overall goal? Right now you have a lot of disparate elements. Once we have a plan, we can start talking about Vypers

What is the "imo"?

I played a tournament, and took first losing these war walkers:

Round 1, 3 WW's ate it, 2 of them during turn 6/6... fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 2, 1 WW died, after terminators deep struck and ripped it a new one. Fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 3, 3 WW's died, from mech IG, and frankly, they're what won me that game, nothing else would have fit the bill.

Good luck with those prisms!

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Please re-read the rulebook. A fast skimmer can cover 24" of ground if moving flat-out (unlike a non-skimmer fast vehicle which can only cover 18").

Warwalkers are really great with scatterlasers, especially if you throw Guide and/or Doom into the equation. That's a LOT of dakka.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:What is the "imo"?

I played a tournament, and took first losing these war walkers:

Round 1, 3 WW's ate it, 2 of them during turn 6/6... fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 2, 1 WW died, after terminators deep struck and ripped it a new one. Fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 3, 3 WW's died, from mech IG, and frankly, they're what won me that game, nothing else would have fit the bill.

Good luck with those prisms!

Not very informative. What kind of armament did your WWs have (so were they even filling the same role than prisms?). What kind of opponent did you have? What kind of scenario did you play? Did the walkers stand on the table or outflank?

On round 2 (only thing I can get any info) did the WW's die from melee? If so Prisms would have better changes of surviving (enemy deep strikes, you fly away), and if the walkers died of bolter fire then certainly prisms would have survived. And don't get me started on holofields and other upgrades that you should have on your prism.

I prefer prisms and falcons over walkers because their better survivability and ability to last turn contest. Of course 9 EML walkers will have huge damage output but the need for perfect firing position and weakness to low str weapons ticks me off. Also WW aren't that well suited for fighting against heavy saves because of their low bs already eating half of the shots.

Con Carne wrote:
Keep in mind it's BS 3, and I don't think the shuricannon is twin-linked.

No, it isn't twin-linked, Con Carne.

Con Carne wrote:
Do the Fire Dragons get the APC, or the Wraithguard?

AFAIK 5 Wraithguard can fit in a Wave Serpent maximum + up to 2 other additional Eldar infantry (eg. A spiritseer (upgraded Warlock)).
You can fit up to 12 infantry models (not incl. Wraithguard) into a Wave Serpent. You may want to add an additional 1 or 2 Wave Serpents to the list.

Con Carne wrote:
If you're not going for any other units with Wraithsight, there's no need to get the Spiritseer upgrade. I'm pretty confident that the Wraithguard in the same unit as the Warlock will be within 6" him. And...if you're going to get 5 Wraithguard without a transport, why not upgrade to 10 of them to, you know, make them a Troops choice to complement the guardians? What do you plan to do with them?

Who's the Farseer Fortuning?

You should agree, that if you roll for Wraithsight and get a 1, not being able to use 10 wraithguard with an AP2 Assault 1 weapon is quite a big drawback. Fortune these with your farseer. Also, do remember that Wraithguard always wound on 2+, glance vehicles on 3+, and penetrate vehicles on 5+. See http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=400035&pIndex=2&aId=4600008a&start=3.

Con Carne wrote:
Is it a hybrid list? What's your overall goal? Right now you have a lot of disparate elements. Once we have a plan, we can start talking about Vypers

I suppose so. You could add an extra Wave Serpent, and have 5 Wraithguard in each. Add more for other infantry units.

Terminus wrote:

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Please re-read the rulebook. A fast skimmer can cover 24" of ground if moving flat-out (unlike a non-skimmer fast vehicle which can only cover 18").

Sorry I messed up there, Airmaniac beat you to it though (on page 1) !

Airmaniac wrote:

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Fast Skimmers can move 24" flat out. Star Engines add 12". Eldar Fast Skimmers can move a maximum of 36" in a single turn.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
What is the "imo"?

In my opinion. Roll over just about any abbreviated phrases to see what they mean! Simples!
Sorry guys about the length of my post.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

@Aetherse

Well, how the games went, a batrep will be up soon, so you can see for yourselves, they don't do the walkers justice though!

I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Round 1, destroyers killed and WDed two different ones on turn two. Then wrecked two with the monolith's particle whip on turn 6...

Round 2, reaper autocannon, heavy flamer, and 6 storm bolters...

Round 3, Two from an outflanking leman russ demolisher, and Creed's chimera. The other from a battle tank.

Anything else? Con Carne mentioned Vypers, though imo Wave Serpents are more worth their points value, considering the fact that the Vyper isn't an APC, unlike the Wave Serpent, the Wave Serpent has a main, powerful twin linked weapon, and after all they can both travel just as fast in the movement phase. Sorry if i got anything wrong here again, a friend has borrowed my codex for the week, and I am having to think off the top of my head relevant wargear, and points costs etc.

I think I'm slowly turning insane reading this, but that's nothing new, so...onwards!

You should agree, that if you roll for Wraithsight and get a 1, not being able to use 10 wraithguard with an AP2 Assault 1 weapon is quite a big drawback.

No, THOU. The Wraithsight rule requires that you have a psyker within 6" of the Wraithguard unit. This can be a Warlock, doesn't have to be a Spiritseer. If the Warlock belongs to the Wraithguard's unit, then I have faith that a psyker will remain within 6" of the Wraithguard at all times.

If you really want a Spiritseer, take those five Wraithguard out of the Wave Serpent and make it a unit of ten. Then you can make it a Troops choice, and now you have a hybrid list, with Guardians and Wraithguard+Farseer on the ground, and...and Fire Dragons zipping around in transports, and two Fire Prisms and a Night Spinner? I'm still not sure what list you're shooting for. What flavor of Eldar are you trying to field, Squirrel? Maybe we need to go back to basics, and figure out what you want your army to do. Half of it is the tried-and-true Mechdar approach, and another half is yearning to be Iyanden.

Con Carne mentioned Vypers, though imo Wave Serpents are more worth their points value, considering the fact that

Imagine Ellen Foley yelling "Stop right there!" ('Paradise By the Dashboard Light', by Meat Loaf.)

Wave Serpents and Vypers have different roles on the battlefield. They can both travel the same distance in the movement phase, and the Wave Serpent shoots its gun better, but yet you don't use the WS to open up tanks from the side or rear armour. Before we go into comparing those two very different vehicles, stop. The Eldar's Fast Attack options are meant to fill a missing role in your army, but unless you're Saim-Hainn, you pick your Fast Attack slots last when you build your army. Right now we need to get your Troops, Heavy Support, and Elites, then HQ choices resolved. The troops you pick, and whether you field them with transports, helps us determine what the rest of your army's gonna look like. Then we worry about HQ, Elites, and Heavy Support to make your intended list a reality. What's the big idea, Squirrel?

Con Carne wrote:
No, THOU. The Wraithsight rule requires that you have a psyker within 6" of the Wraithguard unit. This can be a Warlock, doesn't have to be a Spiritseer. If the Warlock belongs to the Wraithguard's unit, then I have faith that a psyker will remain within 6" of the Wraithguard at all times.

Sorry, my bad. And to get the troops section over with, imo i would say 5 rangers, three jetbikes and 10 dire avengers (in WS)?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@Aetherse
I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Sorry that I didn't notice that. But you are really comparing apples to oranges with scatter lasers vs prism cannon. Also I got an impression from your post that you meant walkers died in conditions that Fire Prism wouldn't have survived. But looking at those situations I'd say that you had been better with a prism (str 6 isn't that hot against rerollable av 12). With 2 prisms you can pump twin-linked railgun shot at that monolith way out of it's range and what is str 6 going to do against russes?

Also full squad of walkers is almost always the same price or more expensive than a prism. I have nothing against WWs but when it is pitted against prism and falcon that give something as good as long range AT gun (and in Falcons case one of the best transports too) on a reasonably tough and very mobile platform I just can't see Walkers win that often, at least at the high point levels.

Aetherse wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@Aetherse
I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Sorry that I didn't notice that. But you are really comparing apples to oranges with scatter lasers vs prism cannon. Also I got an impression from your post that you meant walkers died in conditions that Fire Prism wouldn't have survived. But looking at those situations I'd say that you had been better with a prism (str 6 isn't that hot against rerollable av 12). With 2 prisms you can pump twin-linked railgun shot at that monolith way out of it's range and what is str 6 going to do against russes?

Also full squad of walkers is almost always the same price or more expensive than a prism. I have nothing against WWs but when it is pitted against prism and falcon that give something as good as long range AT gun (and in Falcons case one of the best transports too) on a reasonably tough and very mobile platform I just can't see Walkers win that often, at least at the high point levels.

In rounds two and three, the prisms would have bitten it early. Really early.

Round one, the prism would have been more durable.

This is the selling point:

In none of the games would the prisms have killed more.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
In rounds two and three, the prisms would have bitten it early. Really early.

Round one, the prism would have been more durable.

This is the selling point:

In none of the games would the prisms have killed more.

I hope I speak of right tourney report but I checked http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/298889.page . I fail to see how the CSM in round 2 would have been able to pop 2 prisms early with just 1 unit of 2 Obliterators and 1 blastmaster shot. Also in my opinion prism cannon blasts would have been way more effective at killing termies and so I can't really find support to your claims in scenario 2.

Scenario 3 isn't that unfriendly either because there is still only 1 valkyrie and 2 lascannons (now they are bs 3 too). I wouldn't really say that 12 bs 3 scatter lasers are more killy against semi blob IG than two bs 4 str 5 large blasts. Also those leman russes were probably a real pain to fight with just 2 lances? I would understand your claim if there were vendettas and more lascannons but against hybrid list without meltas and mainly flamers and str 6 fists? No really threathening.

I would probably alter that list and switch the vypers and one walker squad for 2 prisms and maybe give the scatter laser squad eml so they could do some damage on av 13 and 14 when outflanking (I'd really want to have more troops too but list critque isn't the point in this thread).

Yes, and I will ignore the fact that you have critiqued a list that I have won two different tournaments with, at different locations, against different people; first place never-the-less! (Out of two 1,500 tournaments...)

In round two I could have either lost:

1 warwalker

1 fire prism

I would not have killed more terminators, seeing as if I had any blast weapons, he would have spread out so I could only cover one with the template.

Ok, I could have either covered seven to eight with the large blast, with a S5 (Non-instant death attack) or a statistical 10 S6 (instant death) wounds, hmm?

So, I am going to go ahead and ignore the off-topic useless army list critique.

Back to the topic, what do you think about

5 rangers, three jetbikes and 10 dire avengers (in WS)?

To save time, should I just replace the two units of Guardians I originally suggested with these and end this thread?

HQ:

1 Farseer w/Fortune
1 Autarch? (Bear in mind I took 5 wounds off a Trygon Prime (6 wounds) in 1 turn with one of these and it's fusion gun. He was on a jetbike w/ a Laser lance as well (which I never use))

Elites:

5 Fire Dragons w/Exarch w/Firepike
5 Wraithguard w/Warlock w/Spiritseer upgrade
Harlequins? (as wuestenfux pointed out earlier, needs more discussion)


APCs:

1 Wave Serpent (imo w/ twin-linked Eldar ML, shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines)

Troops:

10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)
10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)

Fast Attack:

Vyper? (Definitely needs discussing)

Heavy Support

2 Fire Prisms w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.
1 Night Spinner w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.

Well, Prisms and Spinners should shoot all the time. For this, they should not move over 12''.
If so, vectored engines are redundant, dito for star engines.

Rangers should always be upgraded to Pathfinders.

In your list, I'd consider a full unit of WG counting as troops.

You were very lucky with your Autarch. I'd consider her only in a mech list, when she can bolster reserve rolls, or on a jetbike in a Saim Hann list.

Wuestenfex is right about the Prisms/Spinners, and the rangers.

Autarch is very vulnerable on his own - any S6 wound = ID. For example, when you assaulted a trygon (assuming it had a full 6 wounds left) you needed to hit/wound with the fusion gun (likely enough) then hit/wound with 5 of 6 attacks, 4+ and 4+, so you were insanely lucky. And being S6, if the trygon has 1W left it is very likely to squash the autarch. Obviously that's an extreme example, a trygon is a 200 pt unit. But if an autarch doesn't wipe his target out in 1 turn, he will lose.

I still wonder where the Jetarch's optimum placement is. Does he belong with Guardian Jetbikes, with a squad of Jetlocks, or with Shining Spears? I find it a giggle to put him with some Guardian Jetbikes, and on turn 5, have him race out and eat a SM combat squad or similar helpless infantry trying to claim an objective, or just go for a vehicle, while the other guys go to the same objective.

If he were with Shining Spears/Jet Council, naturally I'd want a Farseer on a bike in that same squad, with Fortune + Whatever. If you're investing that many points into St6 melee, may as well add a 200 point Farseer to protect it all

I'd personally argue jetarch's to be good with guardian jetbikes. He can provide some valuable hitting power to an otherwise weak unit. If you have some tank-popping, meq-killing lunatic in a unit then they can no-longer be ignored. However, I argue jetlocks and shining spears to be capable enough as it is, a star-lance exarch can fulfil the role of the autarch whilst jetlocks hardly struggle for hitting power.

I'd personally say that War Walkers, Wraithlords, Night Spinners and Fire Prisms are all good. I'd argue that over-all wraithlords and prisms are best, but Warwalkers and night spinners can also do very well but IMHO are more of a niche/specialist unit than lords/prisms. It's not to say that they're no good, but I'd give a wraithlord and fire prism priority first then add a war walker or night spinner on top of either 2x Wratihlord or 2x Fire Prism rather than rely solely on the war walker or night spinner.

In regards to the mention of vypers, I'd say that these are very poor. Being too expensive, fragile and lacking in BS to be worth taking, particularly with better units available elsewhere in the army.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Prisms and Spinners should shoot all the time. For this, they should not move over 12''.
If so, vectored engines are redundant, dito for star engines.

Rangers should always be upgraded to Pathfinders.

In your list, I'd consider a full unit of WG counting as troops.

You were very lucky with your Autarch. I'd consider her only in a mech list, when she can bolster reserve rolls, or on a jetbike in a Saim Hann list.

HAHA! The first post by Wuestenfux that I've ever seen without a '' at the end! RESULT! I have been looking for this for a while!

Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

MagicJuggler wrote:Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

Then he is not using them like he should!

Con Carne wrote:I still wonder where the Jetarch's optimum placement is. Does he belong with Guardian Jetbikes, with a squad of Jetlocks, or with Shining Spears? I find it a giggle to put him with some Guardian Jetbikes, and on turn 5, have him race out and eat a SM combat squad or similar helpless infantry trying to claim an objective, or just go for a vehicle, while the other guys go to the same objective.

If he were with Shining Spears/Jet Council, naturally I'd want a Farseer on a bike in that same squad, with Fortune + Whatever. If you're investing that many points into St6 melee, may as well add a 200 point Farseer to protect it all

Well, a Jetarch with reaper launcher attached to a GDJ squadron (with shuricannons) is a possible choice.
However, I'd opt for a more offensive setup attaching her to a unit of SS or Jetlocks fortuned by an accompanying Jetseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HAHA! The first post by Wuestenfux that I've ever seen without a '' at the end! RESULT! I have been looking for this for a while!

Damn.

MagicJuggler wrote:Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

What gear will make a squad of WW 240 points?

I run 3 WW w/ S. lasers as a staple of most of my foot-dar lists. 180 points for a unit that can drop 24 S6 shots, and outflank if needed. Every other important squad in my army, is probably going to cost just as much, if not more. If I want to secure the WWs place on the board, I can spend 30 more points, stick the WW in cover, and fortune them for a turn or two. Combined with Doom, that squad of EML WWs is going to cause serious damage to most infantry on the board.

The main problem with WW is not their fragility, so much as it is their use of a HS slot. They could be a fantastic unit if they were simply moved into the fast attack section. They aren't terrible now, you just need to be careful with them; same with pretty much any Eldar unit, nothing new here.

Well, in small point games, 1500 pts or less, I take 3 WW's with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Cheap and effective, and if it goes down, who cares.

If WW would be moved into fast attack it would make them far more useful. Right now the eldar HS chocies are THE hard part about building an army list, because there are too many good choices. While for fast attack its more a matter of do we bother to take something there?

And small fast light walkers as a FA choice, its not as if there isnt precedent for that if we look to the IG codex. With a new HS (nightspunner) it would make a LOT of sense to move the WW to FA.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:If WW would be moved into fast attack it would make them far more useful. Right now the eldar HS chocies are THE hard part about building an army list, because there are too many good choices. While for fast attack its more a matter of do we bother to take something there?

And small fast light walkers as a FA choice, its not as if there isnt precedent for that if we look to the IG codex. With a new HS (nightspunner) it would make a LOT of sense to move the WW to FA.



Sliggoth

Moving WW's to FA would actually be a good idea.
The current FA options are not really useful in competitive play, possibly Vypers in order to fill gaps in the gun line.

wuestenfux wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:If WW would be moved into fast attack it would make them far more useful. Right now the eldar HS chocies are THE hard part about building an army list, because there are too many good choices. While for fast attack its more a matter of do we bother to take something there?

And small fast light walkers as a FA choice, its not as if there isnt precedent for that if we look to the IG codex. With a new HS (nightspunner) it would make a LOT of sense to move the WW to FA.



Sliggoth

Moving WW's to FA would actually be a good idea.
The current FA options are not really useful in competitive play, possibly Vypers in order to fill gaps in the gun line.

I completely agree (although maybe a 5-10pts base point hike to compensate for the extra freedom), vypers would hopefully get improved anyway to make them also competitive. However, all this is relying on a new codex, which I can't imagine any time soon...

New codex in the next two years, that is my best guess.

Comparing WW to walkers from different armies, it is not unreasonable to simply move them into FA. If the cost of weapons are decreased, or new options are added, a minor cost increase would make sense. Eldar are simply outdated, and not able to effectively deal with most new armies. You will have to meta-game to specifically beat BA/IG, depending on how anti-eldar the lists are. AT weapons are overpriced in general, and in FNP/AV heavy gaming environments, that is really bad news for Eldar.

I can beat new armies, but I simply can't effectively compete in a serious tournament. There are too many things that can wreck any strategies I use, and tactics become way too complicated to be reliable.

At least my army looks awesome... it would probably help if I got around to painting it.

Wrexasaur wrote:
I can beat new armies, but I simply can't effectively compete in a serious tournament. There are too many things that can wreck any strategies I use, and tactics become way too complicated to be reliable.

In the end, I suppose I would agree , this 'units have to help other units otherwise you're literally doomed' approach of the Eldar gets quite complicated, as quite commonly I try to remember some important Exarch power I added to my army list, which sometimes makes me forget a different one, or even something as simple as a Wraithsight roll. Not that my Wraithlord has done anything throughout the course of the entire game , or that I'll be using him ever again because of what little they can do , despite their 3 Wounds, high Toughness, and high Strength. It's why I actually wanted to start Tau alongside my necrons , but my friend commonly plays them at my local club. He loves them, so it's unlikely he'll stop playing them anytime soon.