in line with the quarterly IMP vs. UFP debate thread, here is a colateral thread that, to me is more comparable.

Who wins? Scenario: massed planetary engagements. Assume Gudalcanal situations. neither side controls spaceways effectively and convoys can ferry in troops/supplies (and occasionally blow the hell out of opposing forces). Battlefield is strictly biosphere level-air and land.

1. Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire (from Clone Wars to Jedi Returns for reference)
IM-Guard up to Legions with navy support (aircraft and landers). Marines on occasion.
GE-clone forces
This can be multiple planet or a single planet

How would they stack up?

2. Ork Empires vs. Galactic Empire.
GE-as above.
Orks-major waugh incursion into GE space.

Frazzled wrote:in line with the quarterly IMP vs. UFP debate thread, here is a colateral thread that, to me is more comparable.

Who wins? Scenario: massed planetary engagements. Assume Gudalcanal situations. neither side controls spaceways effectively and convoys can ferry in troops/supplies (and occasionally blow the hell out of opposing forces). Battlefield is strictly biosphere level-air and land.

1. Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire (from Clone Wars to Jedi Returns for reference)
IM-Guard up to Legions with navy support (aircraft and landers). Marines on occasion.
GE-clone forces
This can be multiple planet or a single planet

How would they stack up?

2. Ork Empires vs. Galactic Empire.
GE-as above.
Orks-major waugh incursion into GE space.

Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.
The only thing where the Galactic Empire could probably match up would be in Air Superiority, and even there they would be outgunned in the end.

IG all the way, they may not be able to shoot as well as say a space marine, but they can still shoot better then a Storm Trooper.

I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers.

Besides the Empire was defeated by rebels so they can't be that tough.

I was in the UFP corner in the first thread. I’m going with the Imperium in this one.

If you’re including Titan legions – the Imperium has it by a landslide.

If not, super heavy tanks still make short work of AT-AT’s in my anyway.

The Empire’s strategy for getting troops to the front is just plain stupid. Slow and lumbering AT-AT’s plod into battle under direct fire from the opposition. With the support of space marines, dealing with them would be easy work…

“Sir! We have an AT-AT approaching from the east. What should we do?”
“Ask Captain Generic Space Marine #5 to ram its legs with a Landriader. That should stop it… then, when it crashes to the ground the super human nigh-invulnerable god-warriors can poke flamers in the windows and have a Storm Trooper barbecue.”
“… it can’t be that simple sir. This will be a massacre!”
“I’m thinking about pairing up Chimera with long chains and having them drive all over the battlefield tripping AT ST’s. What do you think?”

Pretty much if you've mastered stone age technology and basic booby traps you're a match for Stormtroopers.

Conscripts could handle the Empire.

Hastus_Drake wrote:Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.

Not that I completely disagree - but what are you basing this analysis on? Considering that blaster type weaponry is a catch all term that encompasses everything from pistols to starship sized guns sharing type - I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are inferior in power to IoM weapons. Since IoM missile launchers can damage and destroy a Leman Russ, I don't follow your logic that a similar weapon carried by stormtroopers would be ineffective. On the flip side, playing devil's advocate, considering that AT-ATs have armour impervious to snowspeeder blasters and stationary blaster turrets - one might come to the conclusion that they are virtually invincible vs most tank class weaponry (as long as enemies are kept away from its weaker under armor) and require superheavy weaponry to deal with.

You are also discounting all the equipment that the Republic deployed in Attack of the Clones / Revenge of the Sith (specifically permitted in this fantasy matchup as its vintage is the beginning of the Clone Wars) - it would appear that it is not as lopsided as you might think. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery looks like it could match any IoM superheavy for firepower, as it mounts a captial ship sized primary weapon.

Yak9UT wrote:I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers. Besides the Empire was defeated by rebels so they can't be that tough.

LOL Whut????

The Rebels would have lost the war without EWOKs. Therefore, EWOKs are superior to both the IoM AND the Galactic Empire. (Curse you Lucas!)

Thor665 wrote:Pretty much if you've mastered stone age technology and basic booby traps you're a match for Stormtroopers.

Yub Yub!

OK, I think we have to drop out the Ewoks from the discussion. Frankly their cuteness factor is what did it and would have an even worse effect on IM troops ESPECIALLY Marines. Its like a nurgle plague-the sugar overload causes insulin shock...

I'd also give the GS troopers heavy weapon blasters (ESB); Superheavy walkers capable of shooting down space freighters (SWAC) and flyers (SWAC, SWRS).

i would say that infantry Blasters are the equivilant of Lasguns. Larger guns are Multi-lasers and Lascannons.

now this means that Storm Troopers only have a 6+ save.



AT-ATs would be resistant to any Energy based weapon(Las and Plasma weapons) the Impierium has as the primary weapon present in the Star Wars universe is an energy weapon, but it would be vulnerable to solid weapons like missiles, bombs and rokkits.
i think this is mentioned in Star Wars novels and is why the rebels used AP missiles as their primary AT as opposed to turbo-lasers.


naturally the Impierium has Star Wars beat in CC unless a Lightsabre gets involved. Storm Shields and Iron Halos would halt the Blade, but parrying would destroy any impierial CC weapon.


In space, one on one the 2 are about even, but the Impierium of man most likely has the Empire out numbered at least 10 to 1 in ship numbers. a Super Stardestroyer could go toe to toe with a Battlebarge, Emperor or any similer sized ship, but there would be more of them then there would be Super Stardestroyers.

normal Stardestroyers would be rough equivilants of Impierial Heavy Cruisers.
Impierial escorts are slightly better then Tartan patrol cruisers as they can have heavy weapons while the Tartan is limited to laser cannons.

Void Shields are probably better then Shield Generators, but not by much. although the fact that Shield generators are pretty common for Ground forces in the Star wars universe would be a considerable advantage.

Per wookiepedia blasters can be lasers/energized particles, or plasma weapons.

It might also note that blasters may be prevalent as stormtrooper armor may be more resilient to to kinetic attack, forcing the shift to that.

The armor issue is an interesting question. The coverage is carapace + level, so the effectiveness of the armor is important.

On wookiepedia, it says that the armor is effective enough to take about 3 las-blasts before the soldier goes down, so it is probably about as effective as carapace armor/flak.

However, it does say that the armor is easily penetrated by armor piercing slug throwers, so I'd say that any bolt weapon would be pretty lethal to stormtroopers.

If we ignore the battle of endor, I'd put regular stormtroopers on about the level of veteran guardsmen, with slightly better armor and about equivalent weaponry.

AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

AT-AT 22.5m tall
Reaver Battle Titan 26m tall, with way more weaponry

What kind of weaponry did the large walkers even field? Would they be equivalent to plasma cannons?

I can't particularly think of any situation where the armor appeared to prevent death in either the movies or the books.

Off the top of my head I recall the WEG Star Wars RPG having Stormtrooper armor as basically the best in the galaxy short of Mandalorian; though it was best for dealing with kinetic type attacks as Blasters mostly tore through it.

In CC I think a power weapon would beat a lightsaber: Power weapons have energy fields that cut through anything, lightsabers are just blades of heat. Also I don't know any land-based GE machine capable of taking down an imperator. And a shadowsword would easily take down an AT-AT. Walkers, as incarna said, are the GEs primary form of land vehicle and chimeras or rhinos would just knock there legs out from underneath them. Ground troops would be shredded by stormlords, hellhammers, baneblades, banewolfs-basicly any IG super heavy apart from shadowswords. Russes would be almost unstoppable against land forces and chimeras could just put dozers on and bulldoze infrantry down. On land, basicly, IG would both outnumber and outclass GE. In space, GE is a helluva lot more manouverable, but would be far outnumbered by IN, plus they don't have any real counter to nova cannons or large amounts of lance batteries.

this is a tough call. i'd say the imperium if marines were readily available but if it's just the guard i'm not so sure for one reason alone. Empire Dark Troopers. also everyone is forgetting about the AT PT and assuming it'd just be AT AT and AT ST's. an air war empire would most likely win for the same reason the imperium would win in a ground war with the UFP, numbers. the empire has the numbers and they care even less about the death of their own men then the imperium does

keezus wrote:

Hastus_Drake wrote:Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.

Not that I completely disagree - but what are you basing this analysis on? Considering that blaster type weaponry is a catch all term that encompasses everything from pistols to starship sized guns sharing type - I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are inferior in power to IoM weapons. Since IoM missile launchers can damage and destroy a Leman Russ, I don't follow your logic that a similar weapon carried by stormtroopers would be ineffective. On the flip side, playing devil's advocate, considering that AT-ATs have armour impervious to snowspeeder blasters and stationary blaster turrets - one might come to the conclusion that they are virtually invincible vs most tank class weaponry (as long as enemies are kept away from its weaker under armor) and require superheavy weaponry to deal with.

You are also discounting all the equipment that the Republic deployed in Attack of the Clones / Revenge of the Sith (specifically permitted in this fantasy matchup as its vintage is the beginning of the Clone Wars) - it would appear that it is not as lopsided as you might think. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery looks like it could match any IoM superheavy for firepower, as it mounts a captial ship sized primary weapon.

I base that on the simple basis that we have no way of comparing stuff like power output etc. directly. So we can just judge by empirical evidence (eg. see what a weapon does to its target in movies and fluff). From there I have to judge that standard SW Blaster Weaponry is not more powerful then Imerial Las Guns of any type are. Star Wars Stormtrooper Carapace is obviously worse then Guard Issue Carapace, as that can deflect Las Bolts at least on occasion, while stormtroopers keel over even from ricocheting blaster bolts. A Heavy Blaster, like that used by the Snowtroopers in Empire Strikes Back, obviously cannot even penetrate the armor of a pimped Trampfreighter (and yeah, we know its the most pimped Tramp freighter evah, but still it is designed to operate with strong shield all the time, no need to really armor it), how should it fare better against a dedicated Fighting Vehicle? I must admit watching the atrocities that pass themselfes as the prequel Trioligy only once each, so I might be wrong here, but the handheld weapons didn't strike me as particularily effective.
Anyway, what we don't see are dedicated Anti-Armor Teams, or anything else that would indicate a working and rounded doctrine for any real battles - all we see is more or less either "Two Hordes clash like ancient saxons but with Lasers and in Spaaace" or at best Squad level tactics.

Self propelled Heavy artillery looks like a decent Titan Killer, granted, but I think it would not get of many shots when it illuminates itself and a Battery of Earthshakers lays an anti artillery barrage over his position from far beyond Line of Sight (LOS Artillery is not really a sound concept outside Anti-Air or Anti-Orbit missions).

Grey Templar wrote:i would say that infantry Blasters are the equivilant of Lasguns. Larger guns are Multi-lasers and Lascannons.

now this means that Storm Troopers only have a 6+ save.



AT-ATs would be resistant to any Energy based weapon(Las and Plasma weapons) the Impierium has as the primary weapon present in the Star Wars universe is an energy weapon, but it would be vulnerable to solid weapons like missiles, bombs and rokkits.
i think this is mentioned in Star Wars novels and is why the rebels used AP missiles as their primary AT as opposed to turbo-lasers.


naturally the Impierium has Star Wars beat in CC unless a Lightsabre gets involved. Storm Shields and Iron Halos would halt the Blade, but parrying would destroy any impierial CC weapon.


In space, one on one the 2 are about even, but the Impierium of man most likely has the Empire out numbered at least 10 to 1 in ship numbers. a Super Stardestroyer could go toe to toe with a Battlebarge, Emperor or any similer sized ship, but there would be more of them then there would be Super Stardestroyers.

normal Stardestroyers would be rough equivilants of Impierial Heavy Cruisers.
Impierial escorts are slightly better then Tartan patrol cruisers as they can have heavy weapons while the Tartan is limited to laser cannons.

Void Shields are probably better then Shield Generators, but not by much. although the fact that Shield generators are pretty common for Ground forces in the Star wars universe would be a considerable advantage.

AT-Ats might be shielded, but Anti-Titan weapons are designed to either pierce or overload voidshields, so I guess even an energy based AT weapon would have a decent chance of doing damage against a Walker.

Space Combat was deliberatly left out by the OP. But for the Arguments sake: Star Wars Empire would beat the gak out of the IoM Navy, simple because SW Hyperdrive is so much more effective then Warptravel, that it becomes ridiculous. SW Imperial Navy can just amass its forces anywhere and beat the IoM Navy piecemeal, without much of a sweat.

And about Lightsabers owning everything else: I doubt that. Besides Stormshields and Halos, all Power Weapons would be able to parry them imo (SW Fluff itself has a kind of Powerweapons and others instances, where this happens). Besides, either Warp related rules would be applicable (they fight in 40K Galaxy), then Jedi would be consumed by the warp faster then you could say "This are not the servitors you are looking for" or they would not (fighting in the SW Galaxy), then Imperial Psykers and especially SM Librarians would be able to unleash Mega-Damage without flinching. That is of course a highly subjective opinion (even more then the rest), but I think, someone surviving at least partially sane in an environment that ludicrously hostile to any Force User, must be one hell of a Bad Ass when let loose in a Sandbox environment where he has not to concern himself with defending his sould all the time.

I've talked to my friend several times about lightsabers, and he is a pretty big star wars nut. I know the mandelorians have armor specially made to withstand lightsabers, shields as well.

I'd put my money on a TH/SS terminator vs a lightsaber wielding opponent.

Power weapon vs lightsaber, one would think the lightsaber would slice through a power weapon unless it was made of pretty heat resistant stuff, but who knows.

daedalus-templarius wrote:AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

People need to stop comparing AT-ATs to Titans and superheavy combat tanks. They don't share the same role. AT-ATs are Assault TRANSPORTS - hence the name All Terrain Armoured Transport. They occupy the same niche as a Gorgon/Stormlord, except with heavier guns.

Ground forces aside, whoever wins the air superiority will win this hypothetical matchup.

daedalus-templarius wrote:On wookiepedia, it says that the armor is effective enough to take about 3 las-blasts before the soldier goes down, so it is probably about as effective as carapace armor/flak.

However, it does say that the armor is easily penetrated by armor piercing slug throwers, so I'd say that any bolt weapon would be pretty lethal to stormtroopers.

If we ignore the battle of endor, I'd put regular stormtroopers on about the level of veteran guardsmen, with slightly better armor and about equivalent weaponry.

AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

AT-AT 22.5m tall
Reaver Battle Titan 26m tall, with way more weaponry

What kind of weaponry did the large walkers even field? Would they be equivalent to plasma cannons?

I'd go with that, although I might shift stats to regular guardsmen.

The difficulty on the IM side is that the AT-AT's, AT-STs and super shooters (I don't know what those were called) might be easier to take down, the GE appears capable of making buttloads of them. They use them more as common attack transports then titans. With their skimmer transport capacity I'd give them the edge in fast movement regiments and heavy assault backup.

On the flipside the IM has the proven ability to produce and transport absolute clouds of Leman tanks, and are Zhykovian in their love of massed artillery. Quantity has a quality all its own.

AT-ATs are only proof against energy weapons until the fall over (ESB) - so tripping it up seems a good way to go...

keezus wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

People need to stop comparing AT-ATs to Titans and superheavy combat tanks. They don't share the same role. AT-ATs are Assault TRANSPORTS - hence the name All Terrain Armoured Transport. They occupy the same niche as a Gorgon/Stormlord, except with heavier guns.

Ground forces aside, whoever wins the air superiority will win this hypothetical matchup.

This quote is directly from Wookiepedia

"Designed for the dual purpose of crushing and demoralizing enemy forces, and also serving as a transport for Imperial troops and light vehicles, the AT-AT was unsurpassed as the most awesome vehicle in the Imperial Army inventory."

I'd go with Titans are "the most awesome vehicle in the IoM army inventory"

So, if they aren't comparable to Baneblades or Titans, but are comparable to Landraiders(since they are assault transports after all), what is the GE going to put up vs titans and baneblades when they come knocking?

If we go with EPIC they'd just shoot the titans a lot. Same as Tau. Titans fluffwise are rare as heck (EPIC they're pretty damn common...), so it would only occasionally be an issue. But ayah I'd agree the titans would be the KingTigers of the battlefield unless the GS has something I am not aware of.

@Frazzled: Considering that the GE enjoyed almost complete space supremacy - and by extension, probably air superiority as well - I would expect that they would normally hit things hardened targets like Titans from orbit. Their stormtrooper forces seem to be used more often as a police/garrison force, a pacification tool or for psychological effect and sometimes, surgical strikes - not so much in open war.

Without GE navy support, Titans would probably win the day for the IoM

keezus wrote:@Frazzled: Considering that the GE enjoyed almost complete space supremacy - and by extension, probably air superiority as well - I would expect that they would normally hit things hardened targets like Titans from orbit. Their stormtrooper forces seem to be used more often as a police/garrison force, a pacification tool or for psychological effect and sometimes, surgical strikes - not so much in open war.

Without GE navy support, Titans would probably win the day for the IoM

Tau have no titans. Tau can hammer (pardon the pun) Titans pretty well. Massed lemans or (and here's the part I come) ticked off eldar firefighting can do similar. Titans are not invulnerable by a good bit. They are shielded but you can bring those shields down. Massed GE fire would do the trick in a very similar manner with their skimmers and ATs. Alternatively GE sniper tanks and mobile artillery should be quite effective.

On the flip side, I'd think marines would do quite well against the GE. Their strengths of shock trooping, heavy armor, and strong personal killy power one on one would make them quite powerful. Marine weaknesses in CC against better alien xenos are nullified. Targetting tactical commands (use of ATs as command vehicles), once discovered would be an excellent way for marines to create havoc. Jumpmarines coming in from a swooping thunderhawk would put paid to command Ats pretty easily, even those heavily escorted (drop out the back, land on AT, place melta charges,fly off, PROFIT!)

Aw comeone, did someone really put up Psykers? Really? Every single jedi and Sith is a Psyker too, some can move super human fast, leap higher, assault your brain, zap you with lightning, hurl the lightsabers ridiculous distances and have them return to their hand. The strength of the saber depends on the wielder and what they want to do with it, then can use it as a bat, or a gigantic cutting knife through the hull of a starship, to try and say power weapons are even remotely even is ridiculous. Mandalorian armor only stoof up to it for a limited number of hits, as the energy field protecting it was depleted with each swing. NOTHING has ever, or will ever, stop a lightsaber for more then several attempts then another lightsaber.

I might go with the GE as the carapace used by the stormtroopers is misleading in the movies. They have great anti energy armour, it's just that the rebels in the SW universe came up with higher power guns (Hans pistol is an example). And lets face it, if someone drops a rock on you, you may not get hurt but you will fall down; like American football.


My biggest defense is the opening credits...A long long time ago....

GE gak is all kinds of venerable

Frazzled wrote:On the flip side, I'd think marines would do quite well against the GE. Their strengths of shock trooping, heavy armor, and strong personal killy power one on one would make them quite powerful. Marine weaknesses in CC against better alien xenos are nullified. Targetting tactical commands (use of ATs as command vehicles), once discovered would be an excellent way for marines to create havoc. Jumpmarines coming in from a swooping thunderhawk would put paid to command Ats pretty easily, even those heavily escorted (drop out the back, land on AT, place melta charges,fly off, PROFIT!)

True dat... I can also see dreadnoughts walking through platoons of stormtroopers, roasting them with his heavy flamer... so marines are pretty awesome except for the Metal Bawkses TM part (Rhinos)

I'm almost more interested in how the Marines would fare against the Confederacy's shielded droidekas and super battledroid units - considering that these guys were messing up Jedi through strength of numbers and weakness of droid control centers aside.

the big weakness droids had(and it was only beginning to be rectified at the end of the clone war) was their poor reflexes(inability to dodge quickly) and their relatively weak armour.


Droideka's were much better having maneuravability and powerful weapons and shields, but the Shields would likely drop fairly quickly to massed lasgun fire and they could only be produced in quantity up to a point. Droidekas actually have much less physical protection then a Super battle droid. they would be very easy to kill once the shields dropped.


the way the droids overwhelmed enemies was through weight of fire, a jedi can only block so many shots at once. they are cheap to make too. however i would say the Impierium would have as many, if not more, guardsmen then the Confederacy would have Droids.

Droids easily fall to an enemy force of organics that is 1/2 the size of the droid numbers. what would happen if they were equaled or even surpassed in numbers by Humans wielding equilivant armour and backed up by hordes of Tanks that have guns that are armed with HE shells that just love rows and rows of targets.

The IoM likely has EMP weapons avaliable as well which would wreak havok on all Star wars equipment.



and Power weapons are not supierior to Lightsabres.

LS project a field of plasma.

power weapons are steel of ceramite blades(physical matter) that have a generator that projects an energy field that desabilizes matter that comes within the field.


the best case scenario would be the 2 weapons stopping each other, assuming the 2 energy fields would interact with eachother and exhert a force attempting to seperate the 2 fields.


most likely they would bypass each other and the Lightsabre would sever the PW with only minor resistance.

If expanded universe is included, even during the timeline provided. Hands down it is the GE.
IoM wouldn't stand even half a chance.

Even based on the canon movies. IoM would phail miserably, even moreso then they would phail vs the Federation/STu

Havoc13 wrote:If expanded universe is included, even during the timeline provided. Hands down it is the GE.
IoM wouldn't stand even half a chance.

Even based on the canon movies. IoM would phail miserably, even moreso then they would phail vs the Federation/STu

You must know things we all don't I guess.

a power weapons energy field would easily deflect a light saber, although the 8 ft tall superhuman wielding said weapon will just destroy the jedi.

The jedi afterall would lop an arm off with some insanely over complicated flourishing strike while spinning and striking a pose, thinking that marine is going to stop fighting because of an arm, except that marine caught his spinning arm and rammed it gauntlet first down the jedis throat ... lol

kill dem stunties wrote:a power weapons energy field would easily deflect a light saber, although the 8 ft tall superhuman wielding said weapon will just destroy the jedi.

The jedi afterall would lop an arm off with some insanely over complicated flourishing strike while spinning and striking a pose, thinking that marine is going to stop fighting because of an arm, except that marine caught his spinning arm and rammed it gauntlet first down the jedis throat ... lol

Or if he's a scout, just cut him in half with a shotgun round at 15 yards before the jedi got close. Stupid Jedi...

kill dem stunties wrote:a power weapons energy field would easily deflect a light saber, although the 8 ft tall superhuman wielding said weapon will just destroy the jedi.

The jedi afterall would lop an arm off with some insanely over complicated flourishing strike while spinning and striking a pose, thinking that marine is going to stop fighting because of an arm, except that marine caught his spinning arm and rammed it gauntlet first down the jedis throat ... lol

I dont know what your smoking but you really should share with the rest of the class....

Jedi fought things bigger then them all the time, stronger too. They are faster, more agile and smarter then the IoM soldiers could ever hope to be, that being said as much as I love me some Jedi, it would still come down to a numbers game, there just arent enough of them. I'd give the battle to the IoM, but the Jedi themselves would be more then a match for over a dozen of their soldiers at a time, but would fail due to the numbers arrayed against them.

Yak9UT wrote:I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers.

EPIC FAIL..... the Speed of light is damn fast the last time I checked.

To begin with the IoM would have the advantage, as their society is organised for war and has the benefit of numbers and heavier weapons.

However the galaxy is a large place, so the GE would be able to retreat while organising their own society for war, ramping up production, developing heavier weapons, and so on.

As we know, the IoM is a highly bureacratic society and dependent on lots of paperwork. The GE does not have any paper, though. As the IoM conquered more planets, their bureaucratic needs would increase greatly, probably to the point where all of their logistic capacity was tied up in bringing paper supplies from the IoM galaxy to the GE galaxy.

This would stall their advance and give the GE the breathing space needed to mount a successful counter-attack.

yeah, but the Empire is still a relativly beurocratic society and there would be elements that would oppose the Militarization of the entire empire.


the IoM also has MASSIVE armies. the Empire's army even at its height couldn't shake a stick at even a 10th of the IG and then there is the SMs, SoB,


the IoM may be slow and ponderous, but once it is moving it will crush any and every thing that stands in its way. it would be war on a scale that would make the Yhozon von look like a bunch of Panzies and the Ancient masters of the Galaxy seem like wimpy old ghezers.

the ancient Sith would take one look, have a sudden incountanance problem and run as fast as them possably could.

Kilkrazy wrote:To begin with the IoM would have the advantage, as their society is organised for war and has the benefit of numbers and heavier weapons.

However the galaxy is a large place, so the GE would be able to retreat while organising their own society for war, ramping up production, developing heavier weapons, and so on.

As we know, the IoM is a highly bureacratic society and dependent on lots of paperwork. The GE does not have any paper, though. As the IoM conquered more planets, their bureaucratic needs would increase greatly, probably to the point where all of their logistic capacity was tied up in bringing paper supplies from the IoM galaxy to the GE galaxy.

This would stall their advance and give the GE the breathing space needed to mount a successful counter-attack.

This bring a new definition to the term logistical train.

Tech sergeant Ralph: "Warmaster Bob, the supply convoy has arrived."
Admech message "Well we could either bring 8*10(42nd power) tons of foodstuff, ammo, and fuel, or this load of munitorum request forms. Sorry"
Warmaster facepalm.

Bah who you kidding, the Sith would find a way to infiltrate and take over. The sith can yell "for the emperor" just as easy...

Grey Templar wrote:


the IoM also has MASSIVE armies. the Empire's army even at its height couldn't shake a stick at even a 10th of the IG and then there is the SMs, SoB,


the IoM may be slow and ponderous, but once it is moving it will crush any and every thing that stands in its way. it would be war on a scale that would make the Yhozon von look like a bunch of Panzies and the Ancient masters of the Galaxy seem like wimpy old ghezers.

the ancient Sith would take one look, have a sudden incountanance problem and run as fast as them possably could.

Yup, there's about 500,000,000,000,000 guardsmen and changing all the time, bout 10,000,000,000,000 russes and a helluva lot of everything else. Plus, if the movies anything to go by, blasters fire a lot slower rounds than lasguns (not the speed of light, lasguns are plas weapons-they travel faster) so jedi would have a hard time blocking them, especially when ther'es millions of them. Also, IG has bout 5 trillion ordnance pieces, 500 million super heavies and 10 million titans. Someone tell me how GEs gonna deal with that.

There's a startling lack of 0's in your numbers above. You really should add a few...

Jedi's dont block when the round is fired, they block BEFORE it's fired, the force tells them where to block, so it doesnt matter how fast the round goes, it only matters how much spacing is between them, can he block/dodge enough to not be hit? Speed doesn't really factor in, unless you are counting the jedi's speed in moving and positioning, just a thought

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:Jedi's dont block when the round is fired, they block BEFORE it's fired, the force tells them where to block, so it doesnt matter how fast the round goes, it only matters how much spacing is between them, can he block/dodge enough to not be hit? Speed doesn't really factor in, unless you are counting the jedi's speed in moving and positioning, just a thought

How'd they get so owned by stormtroopers when the order to kill them all went out from Palpatine then?

1) jump the shark moment?
2) at their heart most jedi are lame.
or
3) it was all an eldar plot to pre-empt three more craptacular movies spoiling the greatness that was Star Wars?

Their arrogance consumed them, they felt that were completly in charge so when the feelings came most fell victim, but not yoda! Cause Yoda rocks, and he knew it was coming, thats why he chopped their damn heads off, had a space ship ready to launch and took off before the clones knew what happened.

again i bring up the point of bloody dark troopers.... how does everyone miss this point so badly?

If the Force Unleashed is a reliable source, then the GE has a fair number of Evo Troopers (Strom troopers & 5+ invuln. save) and Purge troopers (termies w/ no PF and shoulder-mounted plascannon). Nothing the IoM can't handle, though.


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And yup, dark troopers would be pretty badass. Just not enough to win a war

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:again i bring up the point of bloody dark troopers.... how does everyone miss this point so badly?

The reason Dark Troopers aren't noted is because they only really appear in the extended universe, and even then there are very few of them.

just putting my two cents.The IoM would win they would call exterminous.

jrmudo wrote:just putting my two cents.The IoM would win they would call exterminous.

Spelling fail. But yes, IoM would win.

Klawz wrote:

jrmudo wrote:just putting my two cents.The IoM would win they would call exterminous.

Spelling fail. But yes, IoM would win.

Bad spelling I know but hey at least I tried.

Well if the attack is on a IoM world.
A lot of imperial guard would be shipped there. If the threat would be to big exterminatus.
Also if Jedi powers would follow the laws of 40k while operating in the IoM. Then there would be a lot of possesed Jedi. It would be like throwing a poodle in a pool with sharks.

If the attack is on a GE world
GE wins with the state the IoM is now. The IoM can not wage a war against another superpower. Forces would have to be repositioned leaving weak places in the IoM's defense. This would lead to another Black Crusade, hive fleet punching trough etc etc.
But if Psycher powers follow GE laws while in the GE.... oh my Alpha level psychers could decimate entire sectors.

Lord Demon wrote:Well if the attack is on a IoM world.
A lot of imperial guard would be shipped there. If the threat would be to big exterminatus.
Also if Jedi powers would follow the laws of 40k while operating in the IoM. Then there would be a lot of possesed Jedi. It would be like throwing a poodle in a pool with sharks.

If the attack is on a GE world
GE wins with the state the IoM is now. The IoM can not wage a war against another superpower. Forces would have to be repositioned leaving weak places in the IoM's defense. This would lead to another Black Crusade, hive fleet punching trough etc etc.
But if Psycher powers follow GE laws while in the GE.... oh my Alpha level psychers could decimate entire sectors.

First, no, no exterminatus. That isn't an instant "I WIN" button for the imperium. Secondly, You have to assume the Imperium isn't dealing with other threats. Other than that, correct.

I'm going to have to throw my hat in with the GE.
Yes the IoM can bring an ungodly amount of troops to one position but how long would that take? The Imperial fleet can drop 25 000 Imperial I and II class star destroyers if they want to commit their entire fleet. For the ground war it would be a bloody mess. Lets say that the GE deploys four storm trooper legions with armor support. They'd also get support from Victory I class star destroyers which can provide close range fire support (The only "Star Destroyer" that can enter an atmosphere).
I'd say Storm Troopers are one a 1:1 ratio on armor and weapons. Storm Troopers may be better trained (Depending on the Legion and if they were "home grown" or not).
When it comes down to it, I'd say the Empire would win but not by much. This is just saying that they are fighting with just the Storm trooper legions, guard regiments and the respective Navies. The SO Brigade could be thrown in, as well as the Space Marines, SoB and anything else the IoM can throw at them. I'd love to see/read what would happen (The Naval battles would be intense to.)

The Empire fell to rebels!

Chaos is much better then rebels and the Imperuim Of Man still havn't completly lost to Chaos.

And yet these small group of rebels destroyed 2 deathstars and defeted the Empire.


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Anarchyman99 wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers.

EPIC FAIL..... the Speed of light is damn fast the last time I checked.

The Empire Laser Blasters dont go the speed of light! They don't even go as fast as the speed of sound.

I don't mean real lasers!

It's all about logistics - the empire hyper drive is quite a bit more reliable than the warp drive. That said, the Imperium has a pretty heavy religious aspect which would make it harder to actually conquer planets. I'd guesstimate the Empire would be better on the offense and the Imperium would be better on the D.

I'd go with the GE. I think their groundforces weapons and armor are superior to Guardsman. Next the AT-AT is more formidable than most people realise. It's shots were missing people and they were still blown away. The GE has shield technology located on almost every ground based armored vehicle, from the lumbering giants to the skimmer like ships in clone wars.

Jedi are not psykers. They manipulate the force, which is living things. Imperium psykers draw upon the warp and as such can be attacked by it. The two operate differently and as such the Imperium wouldn't be able to stop Jedi powers with anti-warp stuff like psychic hoods. If a Jedi had a unit of assault terminators bearing down on him he could just force push the Termies away, pick one up and start playing WII Bowling on the battlefield.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'd go with the GE. I think their groundforces weapons and armor are superior to Guardsman. Next the AT-AT is more formidable than most people realise. It's shots were missing people and they were still blown away. The GE has shield technology located on almost every ground based armored vehicle, from the lumbering giants to the skimmer like ships in clone wars.

Jedi are not psykers. They manipulate the force, which is living things. Imperium psykers draw upon the warp and as such can be attacked by it. The two operate differently and as such the Imperium wouldn't be able to stop Jedi powers with anti-warp stuff like psychic hoods. If a Jedi had a unit of assault terminators bearing down on him he could just force push the Termies away, pick one up and start playing WII Bowling on the battlefield.

Pretty sure Titan and even some Titan-killer shots would do the same. The shields would probably stop things like lasguns but a Baneblade or even a Leman Russ would likely destroy them (as previously mentioned solid shots tend to work on them well). And as to Jedi... after the "bowling session" (more likely before) an Imperial Psyker would make the Jedi's head explode.

CrazyThang wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I'd go with the GE. I think their groundforces weapons and armor are superior to Guardsman. Next the AT-AT is more formidable than most people realise. It's shots were missing people and they were still blown away. The GE has shield technology located on almost every ground based armored vehicle, from the lumbering giants to the skimmer like ships in clone wars.

Jedi are not psykers. They manipulate the force, which is living things. Imperium psykers draw upon the warp and as such can be attacked by it. The two operate differently and as such the Imperium wouldn't be able to stop Jedi powers with anti-warp stuff like psychic hoods. If a Jedi had a unit of assault terminators bearing down on him he could just force push the Termies away, pick one up and start playing WII Bowling on the battlefield.

Pretty sure Titan and even some Titan-killer shots would do the same. The shields would probably stop things like lasguns but a Baneblade or even a Leman Russ would likely destroy them (as previously mentioned solid shots tend to work on them well). And as to Jedi... after the "bowling session" (more likely before) an Imperial Psyker would make the Jedi's head explode.

and the sith behind him, (and yes i say sith as we are talking about the empire and not the republic) would kill said psyker in the same manner using the force or possibly in an even worse manner (life drain anyone?)

Im suprised no one has brought up the Mighty DeathStar. I mean the GE can I assume easily build another one or two and well goodbye anything the IoM can muster.

Oh i forgot screw the the Titans look up world devastators or speaking of artillery which IoM lovers are so proud of i challenge an entire planet covered in IG artillery versus the GE's Galaxy Gun now thats a artillery piece

I voted UFP last thread, but that was based solely on UFP naval control.

That said, here's a few things:

1. Numbers. I wholeheartedly believe that the Guard alone outnumber imperial troops.

2. Stormtroopers can't hit ANYTHING. It's in the movies. My god these guys were cloned from Helen Keller's genes, not a Fett.

3. Weaponry. As someone said before me, HW teams can easily control the field of battle amongst their lasgun toting buddies. AT-STs are now in season.

4. Space Marines vs Stormtroopers? Skip that. I wanna see a Space Marine take a Walker in close combat. We all know who'd win.

In short, IoM in a heartbeat.

While I'm a big fan of Star Wars, we've seen "elite" regimens of Storm Troopers get owned by a few dozen teddy bears. Space Marines > teddy bear midgets.

Even discounting Ewoks, Stormtroopers can't hit the broad side of a barn, and their armor has built-in energy magnets that draws all incoming fire towards their weak-points.

Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

HiddenPower wrote:Im suprised no one has brought up the Mighty DeathStar. I mean the GE can I assume easily build another one or two and well goodbye anything the IoM can muster.

Oh i forgot screw the the Titans look up world devastators or speaking of artillery which IoM lovers are so proud of i challenge an entire planet covered in IG artillery versus the GE's Galaxy Gun now thats a artillery piece

Note the title of the thread. Ground War Only.

In terms of a ground war?

Tricky.
It depends on who was fighting, and where. If it were an Empire invasion, say, of an Imperial planet, I'd say that The Empire would win, but it would be bloody for them. Same with the Rebellion, except that the rebellion may take less casualties due to their guerilla tactics.
However, if they took their time about it, the Imperium would win with a great degree of certainty, as eventually their reinforcements would arrive and, as we all know, it's nigh impossible to stop 6 million guardsmen from crushing you.
Similarly, if the Imperium was on the offensive, once it had some momentum going it would be a virtual juggernaut and extremely difficult to stop.

GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

In space, the Galactic Empire would win with all their crazy wunderwaffen toys. They also have better superiority fighters.

In pure ground warfare, I would give it to the Imperium. They simply have way more manpower, and Space Marines are an enormous tide-turner.

omgnowaiii wrote:GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

Yeah, if the Imperium had no anti-aircraft stuff. As it happens, they do, in the form of either Hydra Flak batteries or squadrons of Thunderbolt interceptors - maybe even both, depending on the scale of the operations.

Yeah, I agree with the expanded universe stuff, but even then, there's only so much you can do against near-endless numbers of infantry waves followed by big ol' tanks and titans.

omgnowaiii wrote:GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.TIE Bombers wouldn't even get mentioned as they could be shot out of the sky by a Marauder in passing before dropping its own payload. GE Figghter doctrine always was so silly, it hurts. Luv me my old Intercepter tho, ah good times.

Full speed to Killimar! anyone?


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One of you guys being still actively a fan of SW surely can dig up that info: How many Clone warriors did the Republic order? How does that compare to say, the billion men under arms used for the Sabbath Worlds Crusade alone? I think not very well, but I could be mistaken.

I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

Not necessarily - not when the battle is static and around one planet. I stated before that I think the one huge and showstopping advantage the GE has is their awsome Hyperspace Technology - traversing a galaxy in a few weeks is just mindboggingly beyond any other tech that it becomes ridiculous.

BUT. If, as this scenario seems to suggest, the battle is about one planet or even one system, that advantage suddenly becomes meaningless.
I don't think that either the IoM has worse ships or weapons when it comes to slugging it out on sublight speeds (to the contrary, ISDs would be considered Escorts or light cruisers by the IoM). So in system, they could force their way into orbit and drop their troops much more effectively then the GE (being more used to huge scale planetary landings under fire).

So, I think the scenario can still be valid, as long as you come up with a reason why it is restricted to one system (which could be done, for example by saying this is the only connection between the universes)

Hastus_Drake wrote:Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.

Survive lascannon shots? Really? With their tremendous AV values? Even THUNDERHAWKS only have AV12. Hydras are effective against them at only S7. What makes you think IoM fighters are suddenly super rugged? Plot armour?

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

No. Just... no.

Just because the GE has a lot of shiny toys does not mean that the Imperium would be helpless in a space battle. I'm not going to go into it in too much detail, as it's a little off-topic, but the average GE vessel is less than a kilometre long - an Imperial-II Class Star Destroyer is only just over 1.5 kilometres long, making it around eight times smaller than an IoM battleship. I doubt the turbolasers of a Star destroyer, fierce as they are, are much match for the kind of over-powered guns an IoM vessel carries.

keezus wrote:

Hastus_Drake wrote:Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.

Survive lascannon shots? Really? With their tremendous AV values? Even THUNDERHAWKS only have AV12. Hydras are effective against them at only S7. What makes you think IoM fighters are suddenly super rugged? Plot armour?

We are talking fluffy here, you can't attach tabletop values to the GE stuff anyway. Read Double Eagle for example, both Imperial and Chaos Flyers do often survive glancing hits from Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and even Lascannons. On the other hand, no TIE Fighter survived even being looked at squarely - ever. X-Wings would be an entirely different thing, but we are talking GE here.

I say Imperium of man HANDS DOWN. All the Imperium would have to do is blow up kamino (and whatever planets produce clones) by means of Exterminatus and just mop up the rest by using legions of IG and Space Marine Chapters. But if the Imperium fails.....send in Chaos! >


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Oops, forgot we were talking about the GE not clones...lol. my bad. I still say Imperium FTW!

Lord Demon wrote: It would be like throwing a poodle in a pool with sharks.

Oh, that's just sad

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

never read that anywhere, source?

looking at Lexicanum!


Edit: couldn't find it anywhere.

It seems to me that most of you are forgetting about the clones. Now, I used to be a huge fan of Star Wars (at one time I had read all of the books up the New Jedi Order series) and so I might have a little bit more insight than some of you. If any of you had read Karen Travis' books you would know that there are Clone SpecOps with armor that can survive direct impact from a missile type projectile (not to mention lasers). Also, notice how the clones killed the Jedi in the movies. Even though the Jedi could sense malicious thoughts, they still died to the clones. This is due to the clones having no sense of right or wrong so any commanding order would be present in their minds as a right thing to do (I only mention this due to the fact of psykers and wonder if this might affect them). The clones also have larger numbers. While humans reproduce it takes the children 17-18 years before they can fight, then there are birth deformations, plus training. Meanwhile the clones are grown in a couple months and fully trained in a year. I shall also say that Clones are experts in close combat and use vibro-blades that are kind of like power weapons. And last I would like to remind you all that the Clones have advanced technology in those suits of theirs that allows them to have a HUD like you see in video games that provides them with a map, night vision, heat vision, etc.

I left out the Storms as they are just Clones that made it through the Clone Wars and therefore have better tech than the Clones.

And Hastus_Drake I would like to say that Kamino alone produced some millions and near the end of the Clone War, there were many other facilities opened.

Grey - Eisenhorn, certainly

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Weapons - second paragraph down.

Grey Templar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

never read that anywhere, source?

looking at Lexicanum!


Edit: couldn't find it anywhere.

What he means is called Energy Sword or so I think. Its in some older sources and I think Dark Heresy or the new Rogue Trader has it somwhere. Thats Archeotech from the Dark Age of Technology. Without remebering the actual name though, I cannot give you any online sources.


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Whatsit Tooya wrote:It seems to me that most of you are forgetting about the clones. Now, I used to be a huge fan of Star Wars (at one time I had read all of the books up the New Jedi Order series) and so I might have a little bit more insight than some of you. If any of you had read Karen Travis' books you would know that there are Clone SpecOps with armor that can survive direct impact from a missile type projectile (not to mention lasers). Also, notice how the clones killed the Jedi in the movies. Even though the Jedi could sense malicious thoughts, they still died to the clones. This is due to the clones having no sense of right or wrong so any commanding order would be present in their minds as a right thing to do (I only mention this due to the fact of psykers and wonder if this might affect them). The clones also have larger numbers. While humans reproduce it takes the children 17-18 years before they can fight, then there are birth deformations, plus training. Meanwhile the clones are grown in a couple months and fully trained in a year. I shall also say that Clones are experts in close combat and use vibro-blades that are kind of like power weapons. And last I would like to remind you all that the Clones have advanced technology in those suits of theirs that allows them to have a HUD like you see in video games that provides them with a map, night vision, heat vision, etc.

I left out the Storms as they are just Clones that made it through the Clone Wars and therefore have better tech than the Clones.

All well and good (although even more shame on them to be regularily beaten by muppets and young farmboys). But even when every one of them is worth half a squad of Guardsmen, they still would be swamped. I couldn't find any numbers of how many clones where made, but let it be even 100 million, then they still would be at a 10:1 disadvantage against any serious Crusade Force. The Imperium of man: Throw Troops, Kit and random stuff at any problem until it either goes away or not hungry anymore.

it seems weapons like that would be way to rare to even consider in this discussion as a counter to lightsabres.

@Whatsit Tooya:

The IoM uses cloning, too. It is officially forbidden, but the Death Korps of Krieg uses artifical uteri and probably accelerates breeding, too. The IoM has quite similar tech regarding making new soldiers if necessary.

And I wouldn't agree that vibro blades are anywhere near power weapons. Vibro blades - as the name already tells us - are about a conventional blade vibrating at high speed, resulting in a high-frequency cutting motion that supports the wielder's effort of cutting into an enemy. If I'm not mistaken, that's about it - the blade may be monomolecular and razor-sharp, but that holds true for every normal Space Marine Combat Knife(TM).

A power weapon can cut Terminator armour in half. This stuff was made to withstand the powers inside a plasma reactor. Plasma fire of thousands of degrees of celsius (S7 AP2) is the only other thing that gets through this stuff on a regular basis. A vibro blade is not up to this challenge, I fear.

I'm surprised nobody's posted this yet:

http://www.merzo.net/index.html

Go there. An Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly the same size as a COBRA CLASS DESTROYER. Anyone who's played BFG knows this is about the smallest, crappiest starship the Imperium fields.


That being said, the Executor Super Star Destroyer is a little more than TWICE the size of a Retribution-class Battleship, so it might be a tough nut to crack.

Still though, I think that shows fairly well that the Imperium could definitely make it to the ground without much trouble, so a ground war could definitely be fought!

It's also worth noting that while the IoM used SHIELDS, the GE uses Deflector fields. Difference being IoM's function more like what you see in Star Trek, an invisible barrier that stops things dead-on, absorbing the energy until they can't take anymore and collapse. Anyone who saw Episode IV knows that most shots that were well-aimed kept killing all the fighters in one shot. I always wondered why all the talk of double-front deflector screens and such never made much difference - their fields are meant to DEFLECT a shot that's coming in at an angle or in other words shrug off a shot that, while not dead-on, could still cause significant damage. Any well-aimed shot that goes straight in, though, will punch out a GE fighter of almost any type in a single shot.

As for Marauders taking lascannon hits, I think he was referring to how the rules work. You can shake, stun, blow off a gun, or at the "worst" [chain reaction aside] blow off a structure point from a thunderhawk or Marauder, meaning they can take several hits before going down, theoretically. Most GE ships go down with a single shot unless they're capital ships [or crewed by a main character].

a Vibro blade would probably have, in the game, Rending OR a special rule saying it ignores armour saves of 5+ and 6+ in close combat.


i am not even sure if vibroblades are still even used during the time of the Galactic Empire. what with the rarity of Lightsabre wielders in that time a close combat weapon would be a little pointless. also the disappearance of Cortosis would make their ability to deflect a Lightsabres blade non existant.

@Witzkatz:

I must say that I am sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning the guard as I have had little interest in them though I plan to start Steel Legion soon and am reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

As for the vibroblade: the weapon's hilt or handle usually contained a compact ultrasonic generator, causing the blade to vibrate at an incredible speed, making even the slightest glancing blow become a gaping wound. It could be fitted with cortosis weave, allowing it to parry the blows of lightsabers and energy swords.

So these weapons are pretty strong since they can stop a lightsaber (which can cut through an iron bulkhead). I will agree that they are probably not as strong as a power weapon though.

Also:



nuff said


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Whatsit Tooya wrote:@Witzkatz:

I must say that I am sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning the guard as I have had little interest in them though I plan to start Steel Legion soon and am reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

As for the vibroblade: the weapon's hilt or handle usually contained a compact ultrasonic generator, causing the blade to vibrate at an incredible speed, making even the slightest glancing blow become a gaping wound. It could be fitted with cortosis weave, allowing it to parry the blows of lightsabers and energy swords.

So these weapons are pretty strong since they can stop a lightsaber (which can cut through an iron bulkhead). I will agree that they are probably not as strong as a power weapon though.

Agree. Don't know how often they where given out, but in all fairness one must say that sending out infantry without any kind of Melee Weapon or Bayonet / Tool would be stupid, so Clones/Stormies should have something like this equipped.

probably because a Power weapon and a Lightabre function differently.

a Lightsabre simply super heats the target, melting it away.


a Power weapon destabilizes the atomic structure before the actual blade slices through it(or crushes it in the case of a power fist) therefore a Cortosis weave blade would be cut in 2 by a power weapon.


Energy blades probably operate on a similer principal to a Lightsabre and so would be deflected by cortosis.

@Grey Templar:

Cortosis never disappeared it just became rare. The elite clone commandos kept their retractable Knuckle plate vibro blades as their job included assassination.

You were correct concerning the energy blade.

Grey Templar wrote:it seems weapons like that would be way to rare to even consider in this discussion as a counter to lightsabres.

Yep Ultra-Rare, but Hero Characters could have one. Certainly no simple officer or even Trooper.

if Eisenhorn is the only real mention of a Energy weapon then we could assume that the number of existing examples of this Tech could be counted on your fingers.

@Grey Templar: Agreed. I would go so far and hazard that Dan Abnett just thought "star-wars-like" power weapons are cooler and therefore gave Eisenhorn one of those just for giggles. They are so uniquely mentioned in fluff that they should probably be left out of this comparisons.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I'd go with the GE. I think their groundforces weapons and armor are superior to Guardsman. Next the AT-AT is more formidable than most people realise. It's shots were missing people and they were still blown away. The GE has shield technology located on almost every ground based armored vehicle, from the lumbering giants to the skimmer like ships in clone wars.

Jedi are not psykers. They manipulate the force, which is living things. Imperium psykers draw upon the warp and as such can be attacked by it. The two operate differently and as such the Imperium wouldn't be able to stop Jedi powers with anti-warp stuff like psychic hoods. If a Jedi had a unit of assault terminators bearing down on him he could just force push the Termies away, pick one up and start playing WII Bowling on the battlefield.

Pretty sure Titan and even some Titan-killer shots would do the same. The shields would probably stop things like lasguns but a Baneblade or even a Leman Russ would likely destroy them (as previously mentioned solid shots tend to work on them well). And as to Jedi... after the "bowling session" (more likely before) an Imperial Psyker would make the Jedi's head explode.

and the sith behind him, (and yes i say sith as we are talking about the empire and not the republic) would kill said psyker in the same manner using the force or possibly in an even worse manner (life drain anyone?)

My bad, Sith then, same principal applies. (Though you said Jedi.)

i would also like to see a Sith/jedi attempt to deflect a Lascannon or Bolter shot for the first time.

he would probably just dodge the lascannon, but he would deflect the bolter shot.

the bolter shot would promptly explode upon impact with the blade, showering the jedi with Shrapnel.

now imagine if that bolter shell were a Metal Storm, Helfire or Dragonfire round

Grey Templar wrote:i would also like to see a Sith/jedi attempt to deflect a Lascannon or Bolter shot for the first time.

he would probably just dodge the lascannon, but he would deflect the bolter shot.

the bolter shot would promptly explode upon impact with the blade, showering the jedi with Shrapnel.

now imagine if that bolter shell were a Titan Volcano Cannon Burst

Corrected your typo

He could just use the Force to block it or make it change directions.

I would like to suggest that during this battle the Empire would be upgrading their tech to that equal or greater than that of the Imperium using captured items. Meanwhile the Imperium would not due to their calling all foreign tech heretical.

A big hairy Tanith trooper in close combat with pansies in white armour

the instant a Volcano cannon round hit any sort of obstruction it explodes.

the best a Jedi/sith could do is put up a shield and hope he can stand the radiation.

Grey Templar wrote:i would also like to see a Sith/jedi attempt to deflect a Lascannon or Bolter shot for the first time.

he would probably just dodge the lascannon, but he would deflect the bolter shot.

the bolter shot would promptly explode upon impact with the blade, showering the jedi with Shrapnel.

now imagine if that bolter shell were a Metal Storm, Helfire or Dragonfire round

Ah but he would sense blocking would be a bad idea, and simply decide to be in a different place, thus dodging it

Strictly ground war IoM wins hands down. GE just doesn't have anything ground based that can even touch a Titan...far superior range and firepower than any GE ground based vehicle. I personally would assume that Storm Troopers in GE are about equivilant to Storm Troopers in the IG codex. While they are awsome and would be able to kill tons of guardsmen easily they just don't have the amount of support vehicles to really make a difference. One Emperor Titan and a couple of deathstrike missles is all the Imperium needs to keep them at range.

If you add in space combat GE wins hands down. Sure the Imperiums capitol ships are much bigger/heavily armored and have longer range/more destructive weapons. However, their fighter support is actually very poor to the point that it's almost defenseless against a dedicated fighter attack. Anyone who's ever played the old Tie Fighter video game knows that a single well-pioleted Tie Interceptor can take out the entire Imerial fleet by itself. Add in a Death Star and hyperdrive makes the GE dominate any space battle.


A more interesting combat would be a Grey Knight Grand Master vs. Jedi master....who wins?

I think the most effective way to kill a force-user with firepower might come from shotguns, preferrably automatic mode. Something like eight to twelve indivdually moving bullets per shell and three of those in one second...Jedi and Sith are good, and there are examples in books and movies where they were able to stop an onslaught like this with the force, but I doubt that every Jedi or Sith will be able to pull this off multiple times with 100% effectiveness. And since those guys wear 6+ armour at best, the slightest bit of shotgun ammo coming through will cause some serious damage.

The whole space battle thing, I'm still pretty sure the IoM would dominate pretty heavily, I mean their ships are just so much more heavily armed/armored/shielded and the point defense (at least in some of the books) is pretty good on anything larger than, like, a drop pod.

I would like to mention the fact of psykers. Every time they use their power, they could become possessed by the warp. Meanwhile the Jedi can use their power with the only negative outcome being that they turn Sith in which they grow more powerful.

darwinn69 wrote:Strictly ground war IoM wins hands down. GE just doesn't have anything ground based that can even touch a Titan...far superior range and firepower than any GE ground based vehicle. I personally would assume that Storm Troopers in GE are about equivilant to Storm Troopers in the IG codex. While they are awsome and would be able to kill tons of guardsmen easily they just don't have the amount of support vehicles to really make a difference. One Emperor Titan and a couple of deathstrike missles is all the Imperium needs to keep them at range.

If you add in space combat GE wins hands down. Sure the Imperiums capitol ships are much bigger/heavily armored and have longer range/more destructive weapons. However, their fighter support is actually very poor to the point that it's almost defenseless against a dedicated fighter attack. Anyone who's ever played the old Tie Fighter video game knows that a single well-pioleted Tie Interceptor can take out the entire Imerial fleet by itself. Add in a Death Star and hyperdrive makes the GE dominate any space battle.


A more interesting combat would be a Grey Knight Grand Master vs. Jedi master....who wins?

the Empire may have better Fighters(highly debatable) however the size of the ships does matter.


the armour on even the smallest IoM ship is incredibly thick. the prow of escorts is 12 meters thick, Capitol vessels likely have side armour 3 times that thickness. plus there is Void shield technology.

also IoM space ships begin fighting at distances of 1,000s of Kilometers. at that distance you can't get a visual while it appeares that Empire vessals are quite visable when they fight meaning the effective range of their weapons is lower.

now the Empire does have the Hyperdrive to its advantage so they could pull hit and run attacks, but in any standup fight they would lose so bad. and they wouldn't start off thinking they could lose because they are used to standup fights.



Back on topic:

the GKGM would likely win as he is immune to the force powers of the jedi master while having powers of his own.

Whatsit Tooya wrote:I would like to mention the fact of psykers. Every time they use their power, they could become possessed by the warp. Meanwhile the Jedi can use their power with the only negative outcome being that they turn Sith in which they grow more powerful.

Yes but (having not read more than like 2 SW books) Psykers seem more powrful than Jedi/Sith, especially the trained ones (Librarians). I mean, they can rip holes in reality, can the force do that?

only those who are extreamly powerful in the force can do it.


i would say most sanctioned psykers are weaker or at best on par with a Jedi/Sith, but a Librarian would totally PWN any of them.

Porbably.. if Yoda went Sith and didn't CARE he was ripping holes in reality, i mean, what exactly does that accomplish? It would be so much more fun to just blow up their heads, convince them they were your best friends and turn on their enemies, throw them a couple hundred feet beneath a landing ship or walking AT-AT, or stunning them then carving your initials in their chest then lobbing off their head...

Most 40k psykers do one of two things, boost/lower a statline or kill stuff. A jedi can literally make someone do something they dont want to. Imagine your IG commanders suddenly ordering his entire battalion to open fire on the other battalion next to them because they are "heretics" or something, Nothing like a couple thousand free soldiers...

<waves hand> This is not the army you are looking for <waves hand again> That unit is infested with heretics and plans to kill you, shoot them all! <grabs lawnchair, popcorn and watches the show>

No but they can do all this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_power

GT - I wasnt saying they were a viable counter, just that it existed.

The quote in the book described it as the oldest type of power weapon, using technology now lost - it strongly implies there are other examples around, just slightly less rare than hens teeth.

Whatsit Tooya wrote:No but they can do all this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_power

Too bad the thing on top says the facts of the article are disputed.
Oh and (at least in the movies and games) for the mind trick you need to be pretty close and have clear LoS. You seem to forget that Psykers have a certain amount of precognitive ability as well (though not as much as the force grants) and can also throw up shields "just in time". Maybe an IoM psyker would be beaten, but a Librarian, and most definitly an Epistolary, would totally destroy the Jedi/Sith. And ya know, the whole hole in reality thing, that kills things just as effectively as exploding heads (which I don't recall from anything SW I have seen).

Many of these abilities are used in the Darth Bane novels.

Also you do not have to be close to the target it just helps in concentration.

Whatsit Tooya wrote:Many of these abilities are used in the Darth Bane novels.

Now that I actually read the article that is a ton of stuff I didn't know about.

But I still asert that well-trained psykers are more than a match for a well trained Jedi/Sith.

If we're discussing GE versus IoM, shouldn't we be discussing Sith rather than Jedi? Also, even then, Sith are rare. Far rarer than, say, Space Marines...

felixthecat345 wrote:

Lord Demon wrote: It would be like throwing a poodle in a pool with sharks.

Oh, that's just sad

Yeah, for the sharks. There's hardly any meat worth the chewing on a poodle. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whatsit Tooya wrote: If any of you had read Karen Travis' books .

Except most of her stuff has now been rendered non-canon by a cartoon.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:If we're discussing GE versus IoM, shouldn't we be discussing Sith rather than Jedi? Also, even then, Sith are rare. Far rarer than, say, Space Marines...

You're right!

So jedi are a moot point anyway. And there are only two sith in the GE.

Klawz wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:If we're discussing GE versus IoM, shouldn't we be discussing Sith rather than Jedi? Also, even then, Sith are rare. Far rarer than, say, Space Marines...

You're right!

So jedi are a moot point anyway. And there are only two sith in the GE.

Very good point. Now have a very large number of psykers signed "From the Imperium" thrown at your face with no counter, MWHAHAHAH!!

You'd still be fighting jedi if you were fighting on a neutral planet

Actually you bring up a good point, whats the time frame on this fight? (As in between what and what movies or whatnot)

EDIT:
Nevermind read OP. Between Clone Wars and Return there were very few Jedi that were not in hiding/dead so I still fail to see your point. (People who have read the books can correct me now about how the movies are wrong)

.....There is no spoon..... <watches all the psyker heads explode>

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:.....There is no spoon..... <watches all the psyker heads explode>

I find your lack of cutlery... disturbing.

Whut?

*head explodes*

Sorry, I have NO idea what happened there...

Hmm, this is a tough one. Lets look at the good and the bad.

IoM Good:

Large standing Army

Economy already geared towards war time production

Standardized weapon construction

Society of religious fanatics/fascists that obey the call to war


IoM Bad:

Declining Tech

Natural Soldiers

Lasguns

Reliance upon an unreliable system (Psykers &Warp) to get to the battlefield



GE Good

Mass produced Clone Warriors

Average Ground troop has superior body armour

More powerful infantry weapons

Access to shielding for their ground forces(Increasing tech level)


GE Bad

Smaller Empire

Still has vestiges of a republic which means not everyone will answer call to arms

Storm Troopers are BS 2

Currently dealing with internal strife(The rebellion)


It is close. I know that I left out other factors like GE's Jedi/Sith(Time period) & Killer Droid armies and the IoM's Psykers, but I wanted to focus just on the basic units.

IMO, the GE would own the IoM on a tech level but don't know if the GE has the resources to handle both the rebellion and the Imperium.

I still think the edge would go to the GE because an outside threat would probably unite the GE for the duration of the war.

Why do people keep assuming lasguns are worse than E11s (iirc that's the name of the standard blaster right?) and the other stormtrooper stuff?

CrazyThang wrote:Why do people keep assuming lasguns are worse than E11s (iirc that's the name of the standard blaster right?) and the other stormtrooper stuff?

First, Notice the orkmoticon indicating humor

Second, It is more observation than assumption. The Standard Blaster can damage unshielded light vehicles and can bypass body armor damage reduction. This translates to higher strength and AP.

Third, Notice you didn't comment on my observation that the average guardsman is a better shot than the average clone. Also has a orkmoticon to indicate humor.

focusedfire wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:Why do people keep assuming lasguns are worse than E11s (iirc that's the name of the standard blaster right?) and the other stormtrooper stuff?

First, Notice the orkmoticon indicating humor

Second, It is more observation than assumption. The Standard Blaster cand damage unshielded light vehicles and can bypass body armor damage reduction. This translates to higher strength and AP.

Third, Notice you didn't comment on my observation that the average guardsman is a better shot than the average clone. Also has a orkmoticon to indicate humor.

Orkmoticons are thrown around way too much these days (yep, these days) for me to really infer what they mean. And mine was a valid question not any kind of implied "your wrong". I haven't seen these movies in ages and I have only read like 2 of the books so thank you for answering . This is, of course, assuming you took offense to my statement (which it sounds to me as if you had).

@Crazythang-No offense taken or intended. Your post came across a being a bit annoyed at one of the points I had made so I responded by explaining my points and reminding that I had thrown in humor. The last line in the post was to point out that you seemed to have missed that I had put a cooresponding bit of humor in the other list.

Yak9UT wrote:I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers.

Besides the Empire was defeated by rebels so they can't be that tough.

Wait lasers use light how can a bullet go faster than light?

Imperium would win by such a large margin,it would be laughable.

Every single member of the imperial guard has more guts and style than any storm/clone troopers. The federation lacks any sort of "religious" worship that throws them into battle without hesitation.

"lol,all we have to do is blast the klankers and let the jedi take care of the rest!lololol"

The clones have it so ****** easy I could laugh. The Guard has to deal with endless swarms of tyranids,eldar,chaos and tau,fighting with more blood,sweat and lasers than imanginable. All for the emprah!

I would wager that a single space marine could easily kill several jedi at long range. Close range is a different matter,as the marines have no knowledge of lightsabers,and therefore have no means to stop them.

1 guardsman = around 2 clones
1 marine = about three jedi or 500 clones

I could imagine a single marine killing hundreds of clones with only his bolter and his bare hands. I can imagine the
a single guardsman killing a couple of clones.

The IG have a much better organizational deployment. The clones have a flashy command that involves jedi and high ranking CLONES (redundancy isn't good in that case) that really isn't effective at all.

The IG have better tanks. A leman russ could take down an AT-AT,easy. Coupla' shots to the legs with a battlecannon would bring it down quite easily.

so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Samus_aran115 wrote:Imperium would win by such a large margin,it would be laughable.

Every single member of the imperial guard has more guts and style than any storm/clone troopers. The federation lacks any sort of "religious" worship that throws them into battle without hesitation.

"lol,all we have to do is blast the klankers and let the jedi take care of the rest!lololol"

The clones have it so ****** easy I could laugh. The Guard has to deal with endless swarms of tyranids,eldar,chaos and tau,fighting with more blood,sweat and lasers than imanginable. All for the emprah!

I would wager that a single space marine could easily kill several jedi at long range. Close range is a different matter,as the marines have no knowledge of lightsabers,and therefore have no means to stop them.

1 guardsman = around 2 clones
1 marine = about three jedi or 500 clones

I could imagine a single marine killing hundreds of clones with only his bolter and his bare hands. I can imagine the
a single guardsman killing a couple of clones.

The IG have a much better organizational deployment. The clones have a flashy command that involves jedi and high ranking CLONES (redundancy isn't good in that case) that really isn't effective at all.

The IG have better tanks. A leman russ could take down an AT-AT,easy. Coupla' shots to the legs with a battlecannon would bring it down quite easily.

LMAO
So much for any kind of objectivity from you. LOL.

Every "point" that was made is so laughable it is not even worth tearing apart.

@ focusedfire: Good we are friends then!

@Havoc: not that I agree, but do please tear them apart with points of your own

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

incarna wrote:I was in the UFP corner in the first thread. I’m going with the Imperium in this one.

If you’re including Titan legions – the Imperium has it by a landslide.

If not, super heavy tanks still make short work of AT-AT’s in my anyway.

The Empire’s strategy for getting troops to the front is just plain stupid. Slow and lumbering AT-AT’s plod into battle under direct fire from the opposition. With the support of space marines, dealing with them would be easy work…

“Sir! We have an AT-AT approaching from the east. What should we do?”
“Ask Captain Generic Space Marine #5 to ram its legs with a Landriader. That should stop it… then, when it crashes to the ground the super human nigh-invulnerable god-warriors can poke flamers in the windows and have a Storm Trooper barbecue.”
“… it can’t be that simple sir. This will be a massacre!”
“I’m thinking about pairing up Chimera with long chains and having them drive all over the battlefield tripping AT ST’s. What do you think?”

you have to remember tho that ATAT's shrugged off heavy blaster shots, like superheavy shots


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S: what about dark jedi? the emperors hand? covert operations with superhuman abilities and awesomly strong CCW?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

Erm...it is a tradition umong the Sith that there will only ever be two, master and padawan.

focusedfire wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:Why do people keep assuming lasguns are worse than E11s (iirc that's the name of the standard blaster right?) and the other stormtrooper stuff?

First, Notice the orkmoticon indicating humor

Second, It is more observation than assumption. The Standard Blaster can damage unshielded light vehicles and can bypass body armor damage reduction. This translates to higher strength and AP.

Third, Notice you didn't comment on my observation that the average guardsman is a better shot than the average clone. Also has a orkmoticon to indicate humor.

Yeh, but a single las round fires with very little recoil, even when utilising rapid fire, a single shot will blow limbs of, create huge holes in chests and blow heads up. And against light armour in large numbers it can punch through the outer skin. And when there's lasguns they always fire in large numbers. Remember in SW when Leia got an E11 round in the shoulder? If it was a las round it probably would have lost an arm.

Klawz wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

Erm...it is a tradition umong the Sith that there will only ever be two, master and padawan.

not in expanded universe.... same goes for knights of the old republic. Remember the sith academy on korban? The emperor rebuilt it. and i guess mara jade became his true apprentice, vader was just a figure head

felixthecat345 wrote:Yeh, but a single las round fires with very little recoil, even when utilising rapid fire, a single shot will blow limbs of, create huge holes in chests and blow heads up. And against light armour in large numbers it can punch through the outer skin. And when there's lasguns they always fire in large numbers. Remember in SW when Leia got an E11 round in the shoulder? If it was a las round it probably would have lost an arm.

Unfortunately, That is how Hollywood would show a weapon that has no momentum properties behaving. The reality is that a lasgun would burn a tiny little hole that cauterizes itself for no blood loss. Getting a kill shot with a laser is tougher than with a weapon that does internal kinetic damage to the target. Particle weapons are much more deadly in the respect that they do tremendous amounts of kinetic damage.

I've got an idea CHAOS + C.I.S , battle droids fighting along side chaos space marines and daemons! space marines would just fall to the over whelming firepower , while daemons and chaos marines would massacre clones , stormtroopers etc

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Klawz wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

Erm...it is a tradition umong the Sith that there will only ever be two, master and padawan.

not in expanded universe.... same goes for knights of the old republic. Remember the sith academy on korban? The emperor rebuilt it. and i guess mara jade became his true apprentice, vader was just a figure head

First off, the sith tradition was founded after the Knight of the Old Repubic. Second off, Sideous was a heretic. I also doubt that any of these Sith were or would be used in major battles.

Hmm,well considering I love the imperium so much more than the Federation, I'd say my opinions can be as biased As I want them too.

And no,a dark trooper would never be able to match a space marine. NEVER. Dark troopers would be obliterated by bolter fire. In fact,everything in the star wars universe would be utterly massacred by bolter fire. The Arc Blasters (or whatever) wouldn't be able to kill a space marine in a reasonable time. Killing some lightly armored rebels is easy,killing a space marine would take dozens of shots,at which point the space marine would have ripped their face off already.

I have just found my old Star Wars RPG rulebook and thought I'd add something about the comparison between lasgun and blaster from a game-term perspective. While this is hard in so different game systems and maybe not 100% relevant for this rather fluffy discussion, I thought the information might be useful.

Lasgun and blaster: A rough game-term-wise comparison


A lasgun is a S3 weapon, while a human is T3. This holds true for Storm- and Clonetroopers as well, I think. With these basics, the chance of a lasgun shot killing, eliminating, disabling a non-armoured human target is exactly 50%.


In the RPG terms of the Star Wars rulebook I have here, it's a little bit more detailed. The basic stuff works as follows: If a shot hits a target, the target rolls as much W6 as it has for its "Strength" value and sums the result up, while the power of the shot is determined by rolling as much W6 as the weapon has listed under "Damage" and summing up the resulting numbers. Then the difference of these numbers is used as the actual damage dealt to the target - the higher the result, the worse the wound.

Normal humans - like guardsmen - have 2W strength, while the standard issue stormtrooper blaster has a damage rating of 5W.
The average roll for strength on a human target is 7, while the average blaster-gun damage roll is 17.5.
The difference of these both is 10.5 and, according to the damage chart, a result of 9 is sufficient to disable the target for 10W6 minutes. The target needs to be healed to be able to fight again.

Unfortunately, the exact possibilty of a blaster shot killing a human is much, MUCH harder to calculate than in the case of 40k rules. However, you can see that the average damage result is barely to quite enough to disable its target. In reality, 50% of results will be below average (and might only lightly wound a guardsman (who would then be screamed at by a commissar until he frakking starts fighting again)) and 50% of results will be above average (and will cripple or kill the guardsman, which removes him from being an actually helpful combatant).

Therefore I'd say that a blaster and a lasgun have quite the same killing capacity, with a light advantage to the blaster maybe (due to the average being 10.5 and not the bare minimum of 9 for disabling a target).

Range-wise, the weapons are probably rather similar. The blaster has a given max. range of 300m, which probably is something around the effective range for a lasgun, too, according to BL novels and stuff like that.

Ammunition-wise:

- A blaster can fire 100 shots from one power pack.
- A lasgun (Dark Heresy/Inquisitor players help me out here) has, at least according to Dan Abnett novels, usually a few shots less in its magazine. Might be something around 30, maybe 100 for special cells and low power settings.
However, the lasgun has the HUGE advantage of having magazines that can be re-loaded by exposing them to sunlight or heat sources if necessary. AFAIK, you can't do that with blaster power packs; they need to be re-charged at special charging stations. This makes IoM infantry much more self-sufficient than GE infantry in my opinion, while still keeping the same range and killing power.

Conclusion:
I think blasters and lasguns should be roughly equivalent in their effectiveness as a basic infantry weapon for this discussion. If details are needed, the blaster might be a little bit more killy, while the lasgun might be a little bit more durable and self-sufficient for prolonged combats.


I hope this is essay was at least interesting for some of you.

Just to clear up a misnomer:

las weapons seem to have some KE, as they cause concussive damage and massive internal shock to unarmoured bodies. Quite a few D Abnett novels mention tyhis.

Agreed on that. This might even have some real-life background; a laser beam hitting a solid surface causes thermic ionisation, which creates laser-produced plasma (LPP). I can't find the source, but it sounds sensible that this concentrated, high-temperature plasma effect will have some violent interaction with its surroundings, kreating something like a KE effect.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm,well considering I love the imperium so much more than the Federation, I'd say my opinions can be as biased As I want them too.

And no,a dark trooper would never be able to match a space marine. NEVER. Dark troopers would be obliterated by bolter fire. In fact,everything in the star wars universe would be utterly massacred by bolter fire. The Arc Blasters (or whatever) wouldn't be able to kill a space marine in a reasonable time. Killing some lightly armored rebels is easy,killing a space marine would take dozens of shots,at which point the space marine would have ripped their face off already.

type 2 have arc blasters. type 3 have missile racks and lasers that are about the same power as a las cannon

type 2 have arc blasters. type 3 have missile racks and lasers that are about the same power as a las cannon

I'd be hesitant to directly compare some kind of laser directly to a Lascannon. Without any kind of source, how can you be sure it's not rather the power of a multilaser, for example?

also a Lasgun power pack has more shots in it then that.

a power pack for a lasgun can fire at least 100 rounds, you get repremanded if you can't, on full-auto. single shot provides more shots.




also Lasguns have a misleading name. they are actually Plasma weaponry. it fires an explosive energy bolt similer to a shell, utilizing the same magnetic envelope theory that Plasma guns utilize. a Lasgun will have more damage output then a Blaster.






there were Sith besides Vader and the Emperor during the time of the empire, they were used as impierial assassins to eliminate rivals to Palpatines power(senators, planatary govornors,....)

Mara Jade is the prime example.

Vaders apprentice is also an example.

Witzkatz wrote:

type 2 have arc blasters. type 3 have missile racks and lasers that are about the same power as a las cannon

I'd be hesitant to directly compare some kind of laser directly to a Lascannon. Without any kind of source, how can you be sure it's not rather the power of a multilaser, for example?

good point, the only thing i can say to back this claim up is that they are more then capable of taking out heavy tanks thus why i compared it to a las cannon

that however leaves the option that the tank in SWs are no better then AV12.

@Grey Templar:

Lexicanum says:

The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy of the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion.

This is a quote from the 3rd edition BRB, I think. There's nothing about energy bolts being transmitted or magnetic envelope effects. Could you maybe quote your sources for that? I know some novels describe "lasbolts" being shot, but this is probably more something like author's freedom of description, I think.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm,well considering I love the imperium so much more than the Federation, I'd say my opinions can be as biased As I want them too.

And no,a dark trooper would never be able to match a space marine. NEVER. Dark troopers would be obliterated by bolter fire. In fact,everything in the star wars universe would be utterly massacred by bolter fire. The Arc Blasters (or whatever) wouldn't be able to kill a space marine in a reasonable time. Killing some lightly armored rebels is easy,killing a space marine would take dozens of shots,at which point the space marine would have ripped their face off already.

type 2 have arc blasters. type 3 have missile racks and lasers that are about the same power as a las cannon

.....what? I doubt a dark trooper could carry an arc blaster,missile launcher and a "laser" and use them all efficiently.A missile launcher is slow(if he has to load a missile into it,it'll still be slow regardless), and lasers are "heavy" for a reason.

In 40k, infantry carrying lascannons are incredibly rare (devastators and vehicles only) for a reason. It takes someone of massive strength to even carry a lascannon,let alone fire it. I seriously doubt that you could wield any sort of "lascannon" while jumping around the battlefield with your jump pack trying to fire your other massive weapons.


Not only that, but a lascannon is such a complex,enormous weapon, I don't think you could make it small enough to be fitted onto some piece of crap clone in a plastic suit. Oh wait,black plastic suit. There,that makes them way better.

@ greytemplar lol, hilarious if true

Witzkatz wrote:@Grey Templar:

Lexicanum says:

The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy of the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion.

This is a quote from the 3rd edition BRB, I think. There's nothing about energy bolts being transmitted or magnetic envelope effects. Could you maybe quote your sources for that? I know some novels describe "lasbolts" being shot, but this is probably more something like author's freedom of description, I think.

read the Impierial Munitorum manuel, its from 2007.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm,well considering I love the imperium so much more than the Federation, I'd say my opinions can be as biased As I want them too.

And no,a dark trooper would never be able to match a space marine. NEVER. Dark troopers would be obliterated by bolter fire. In fact,everything in the star wars universe would be utterly massacred by bolter fire. The Arc Blasters (or whatever) wouldn't be able to kill a space marine in a reasonable time. Killing some lightly armored rebels is easy,killing a space marine would take dozens of shots,at which point the space marine would have ripped their face off already.

type 2 have arc blasters. type 3 have missile racks and lasers that are about the same power as a las cannon

.....what? I doubt a dark trooper could carry an arc blaster,missile launcher and a "laser" and use them all efficiently.A missile launcher is slow(if he has to load a missile into it,it'll still be slow regardless), and lasers are "heavy" for a reason.

In 40k, infantry carrying lascannons are incredibly rare (devastators and vehicles only) for a reason. It takes someone of massive strength to even carry a lascannon,let alone fire it. I seriously doubt that you could wield any sort of "lascannon" while jumping around the battlefield with your jump pack trying to fire your other massive weapons.


Not only that, but a lascannon is such a complex,enormous weapon, I don't think you could make it small enough to be fitted onto some piece of crap clone in a plastic suit. Oh wait,black plastic suit. There,that makes them way better.

and the info: "he Phase III trooper's standard weapon complement included a large handheld assault cannon and two shoulder-mounted seeker missile launcher racks that were hidden under the suit's shoulder plates when not in use. They were issued additional fragmentation grenades, thermal detonators, and concussion grenades. Phase III Dark troopers wore black armor made of the nearly indestructible metal phrik, mined on the moon Gromas 16. It provided superior protection against enemy fire including energy weapons such as lightsabers.
Some of the Phase III Dark Troopers also were equipped with an array of integrated weaponry, including a pair of dual blaster cannons, two in each wrist, and six PLEX rocket tubes located under the shoulder plates, three per shoulder."

Alright,alright. Still,no match for the win-sauce of the marines.

I was imagining the dark troopers from Battlefront, where they die after like three hits from a plain old rifle.

the equivilant of a T'au battle suit.

the increased protection against Energy weapons likely results in a decrease in resistance to Kinetic damage. so bolters, autocannons, and stubbers would mess them up.


the missiles are no doubt effective, but he has a limited supply and they are not as large as a Vehicle or man portable launchers missiles so damage output is sacrificed for portability.


the Blaster cannons are probably no more effective then Hellguns or Hotshot lasguns, although at a higher rate of fire.

from what i gathered from that description phase 3's sound more like terminator armor. also battlefront both 1 and 2 only had phase 2 dark troopers
here's the info on them as well "Each droid was equipped with the external elements such as the suit, a jumppack, and an assault cannon capable of firing 400 plasma shells and 20 missiles before reloading."

Samus_aran115 wrote:"lol,all we have to do is blast the klankers and let the jedi take care of the rest!lololol"

The clones have it so ****** easy I could laugh. The Guard has to deal with endless swarms of tyranids,eldar,chaos and tau,fighting with more blood,sweat and lasers than imanginable. All for the emprah!

You know, this is soooo true. The biggest threat the Clone Army ever had to face was slowed robots. I repeat, slowed ROBOTS.

Then the successor Storm Troopers are the most inept bunch of soldiers ever envisioned in any sci-fi/fantasy setting ever, getting smacked around by a farmboy, a smuggler, a princess, a shag carpet with legs, and two robots (one a trashcan with wheels, and the other homosexual).

Ok some misconceptions that need to be clarified about SW stuff here...

Dark troopers p3 were a droid/cyborg mix (both looked identical externally). Also at least one was designed as a powered suit, working much like terminator armor or a battlesuit, complete with jetpack. The project was also completely scrapped angrily by palpatine when Kyle katarn destroyed the arc hammer, which was their only production source. They were never mass produced or utilized in any large fashion.

Palpatine never reopened the academy on korriban, nor did he have any other sith besides vader. What he did have were agents trained to use the force, but in regards to actual sith he remained true to the tradition of only a master and apprentice. Vader was in no way a figurehead. He also had a few fallen Jedi who were part of his inquisition (yes there was an imperial inquisition in star wars ) that were tasked to find any remaining Jedi or forces users and corrupt them to the dark side.

Now, as to blaster power we need to look at movie evidence to gauge blaster power: first off if you watch the hit on leis frame by frame the bolt hits the wall first and then grazes her arm; it was a glancing hit. More importantly we see the remains of a jawa sandcrawler blasted pretty heavily. Now I'm sure there was a mix of heavier weapons, but I think placing average blaster pistol at s3, with the average rifle at s4 wouldn't be unreasonable.

Now for the Titan vs at-at debate, we have a lumbering, heavily-armed behemoth vs another lumbering, heavily-armed behemoth. In the end they pound the snot out of each other, and in the process destroy tokeo.

I'll post again when I'm not on my iPhone and have better access to my sw info.

Going by the rule of cool, the GE wins hands down. Their equipment looks cooler and is higher tech.

Everyone proclaims the bolter as someting to be feared...a weapon with almost god-like killing ability.
Thing is, we currently have explosive rounds IRL that are of equal calibre as the bolter/heavy bolter. Bolters just don't have the destructive capability of a weapon that launches a thermal detonator or the power of particle weapons that would ignore SM armour due to the properties of hyper-accelerated particles and how they cause damage.

Sorry doublepost

Imperial Titans would completely destroy at-ats. They are far more mobile,an heavily armed.A plasmacannon would no doubt rip through the hull of an AT-AT quite easily,not to mention that even pushing on the At-At would knock it over,defenseless. The Titans would be almost impossible for the galactic federation to kill. Even a leman russ would prove more than a challenge to destroy.

focusedfire wrote:

felixthecat345 wrote:Yeh, but a single las round fires with very little recoil, even when utilising rapid fire, a single shot will blow limbs of, create huge holes in chests and blow heads up. And against light armour in large numbers it can punch through the outer skin. And when there's lasguns they always fire in large numbers. Remember in SW when Leia got an E11 round in the shoulder? If it was a las round it probably would have lost an arm.

Unfortunately, That is how Hollywood would show a weapon that has no momentum properties behaving. The reality is that a lasgun would burn a tiny little hole that cauterizes itself for no blood loss. Getting a kill shot with a laser is tougher than with a weapon that does internal kinetic damage to the target. Particle weapons are much more deadly in the respect that they do tremendous amounts of kinetic damage.

Actually, a lasgun is a plas weapon, and creates a small explosion on impact

explaining why laguns have kick and that they do transfer Kinetic damage on impact(although you likely won't notice over the burning sensation )

Just a quick lexi description of a lasgun:

"It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to many other weapons of 40K, but is capable of cleanly severing limbs and potentially even piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but usually only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)"

Just in case someone asks


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Nuther Lexi quote:

"These power packs can also be "overcharged", a trick used by guard veterans, causing the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift granade"

Lol, lasbombs

Looks like I had to bring this.

It's too small. Can you enlarge it?

It says:

Space Marines> Jedi
Because a chainsword is much more manly than a lightsaber

it says "Space marines>Jedi, Because a Chainsaw is more manly then a Lightsabre"

Yes, SMs being sadly bereft of all but the external symbols of manliness must take advantage of every opportunity to bolster their flagging masculine egos.

Or do they?...

Yet a chainsword doesn't ignore armor nor can ir bore straight through metal.

A SM's worst Nightmare would be for Banshees to get Lightsabres.

focusedfire wrote:Yet a chainsword doesn't ignore armor nor can ir bore straight through metal.

A SM's worst Nightmare would be for Banshees to get Lightsabres.

Sure it can! A chainsword would eat right through metal, just look at how well it kills eldar!

Lightsaber, chainsword... nothing beats the bongsaber.

Oh Yeah, Snooch to the Booch Motha F***a.

Marrak wrote:Ok some misconceptions that need to be clarified about SW stuff here...

Dark troopers p3 were a droid/cyborg mix (both looked identical externally). Also at least one was designed as a powered suit, working much like terminator armor or a battlesuit, complete with jetpack. The project was also completely scrapped angrily by palpatine when Kyle katarn destroyed the arc hammer, which was their only production source. They were never mass produced or utilized in any large fashion.

Palpatine never reopened the academy on korriban, nor did he have any other sith besides vader. What he did have were agents trained to use the force, but in regards to actual sith he remained true to the tradition of only a master and apprentice. Vader was in no way a figurehead. He also had a few fallen Jedi who were part of his inquisition (yes there was an imperial inquisition in star wars ) that were tasked to find any remaining Jedi or forces users and corrupt them to the dark side.

Now, as to blaster power we need to look at movie evidence to gauge blaster power: first off if you watch the hit on leis frame by frame the bolt hits the wall first and then grazes her arm; it was a glancing hit. More importantly we see the remains of a jawa sandcrawler blasted pretty heavily. Now I'm sure there was a mix of heavier weapons, but I think placing average blaster pistol at s3, with the average rifle at s4 wouldn't be unreasonable.

Now for the Titan vs at-at debate, we have a lumbering, heavily-armed behemoth vs another lumbering, heavily-armed behemoth. In the end they pound the snot out of each other, and in the process destroy tokeo.

I'll post again when I'm not on my iPhone and have better access to my sw info.

Counter proof "Mara Jade Skywalker was, during different times in her life, an Emperor's Hand, a smuggler, and later a Jedi Master who sat upon the Jedi High Council. As an Emperor's Hand, Mara carried out the Emperor's bidding, killing Rebels and corrupt Imperials alike with cold professionalism even as a young woman. After Palpatine's death, she received his last command, which was to kill Luke Skywalker; however, the death of her Master caused her to go rogue. Eventually she joined Talon Karrde, becoming one of his best smugglers and his second-in-command. During the predations of Grand Admiral Thrawn, she was forced to work with Skywalker, and developed a grudging respect for him. "

How the hell is that counter-proof? She LATER became a jedi master, not under palpatine.How could she be a sith if she became a JEDI master? And why use her latter name? That just gives away the fact that they eventually get married.Duh?

please actually read it before exploding like that. evidence is shown where it clearly says "After Palpatine's death, she received his last command, which was to kill Luke Skywalker; however, the death of her Master caused her to go rogue." and as someone stated earlier yes palpatine is a rouge

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:please actually read it before exploding like that. evidence is shown where it clearly says "After Palpatine's death, she received his last command, which was to kill Luke Skywalker; however, the death of her Master caused her to go rogue." and as someone stated earlier yes palpatine is a rouge

Still doesn't show she's a sith. And no one gets your point. Care to speak in normal?

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

Well, you may be right, but according to Wookiepedia, they state that only a few Phase III Dark Troopers were ever constructed. In addition, Mara Jade was one of the Emperor's Hands. He had several, it is implied, so actually that's an interesting point to bring up.

here's the link for my source:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase_III_dark_trooper

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:so we are going into a ground and air war? fine, answer to the thunderbolt fighters Tie D's. and for the ground war advanced tie bombers as it was never said we couldn't bring expanded universe into this just not space battles. also for everyone saying marines win it for the imperium look at the beginning of this thread where it said limited marine involvement and even so phase 3 dark troopers are clearly a match for them at least in a ranged fight

Again, it comes down to numbers. The GE has limited amounts of TIEs it can field in the arena of battle, whereas the Imperium's resources for war are much greater. Secondly, Hydra flak tanks are more than capable of stopping a bombing wave. Also, I'm fairly sure that the GE does not have access to tactically useful numbers of Phase III Dark Troopers, owing to that particular project being prematurely cancelled due to it's destruction by Kyle Katarn.

phase three dark troopers were not canceled, granted one of the main production facilities was destroyed it did not stop their production (yes they were mentioned in one of the books, but i cannot recall it's name at the moment). as for having limited tie fighters, remember the empire control the galaxy their production means are by no means limited. furthermore wither people know it or not the rebellion's X wing is actually an empire aircraft so they could always fall back on those if needed. last but not least the empire has alot of sith, koriban is still their training ground and always will be. oh just so it is known vader a not the emperor's right hand guy, it was really mara jade

Well, you may be right, but according to Wookiepedia, they state that only a few Phase III Dark Troopers were ever constructed. In addition, Mara Jade was one of the Emperor's Hands. He had several, it is implied, so actually that's an interesting point to bring up.

here's the link for my source:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase_III_dark_trooper

we are using the same source info then as that is where i've been gathing my info from as my cousin has my expanded universe books

Oh? Fair enough then. Perhaps I'll get ahold of these books, I remember the Timothy Zahn stuff being good.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
Counter proof "Mara Jade Skywalker was, during different times in her life, an Emperor's Hand, a smuggler, and later a Jedi Master who sat upon the Jedi High Council. As an Emperor's Hand, Mara carried out the Emperor's bidding, killing Rebels and corrupt Imperials alike with cold professionalism even as a young woman. After Palpatine's death, she received his last command, which was to kill Luke Skywalker; however, the death of her Master caused her to go rogue. Eventually she joined Talon Karrde, becoming one of his best smugglers and his second-in-command. During the predations of Grand Admiral Thrawn, she was forced to work with Skywalker, and developed a grudging respect for him. "

What is this nonsense have to do with anything? She was not a Sith, she was never described as a Sith in any Extended Universe novel or RPG sourcebook. She was always just an Imperial Agent with some dark side tricks thrown in for good measure. The fact that she became a Jedi Master later on is because she was first taught by Kyle Katarn (i.e. Jesus), and later by Skywalker himself.

kyle is jesus? LMAO, but he's got so many flaws

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:kyle is jesus? LMAO, but he's got so many flaws

Hey, so did Jesus. That's what made him cool.

lol, true

lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

Asherian Command wrote:lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

i disagree, personally i'd say it would come down to which side struck first. also jedi should not even be apart of this conversation this is the empire we are talking about not the republic

Well in that Case Sith. -.-

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

i disagree, personally i'd say it would come down to which side struck first. also jedi should not even be apart of this conversation this is the empire we are talking about not the republic

I personally think it's the Imperium who would win, though if the Empire struck first then they'd be at a severe disadvantage.

50/50. though i agree the IOM would be at a sever disadvantage

but considering that the imperium would strike back would be disable the entire Empire ground force. Because we know the imperium is known for kicking ass in counter attacks.

Asherian Command wrote:but considering that the imperium would strike back would be disable the entire Empire ground force. Because we know the imperium is known for kicking ass in counter attacks.

true, but the empire does control the entire galaxy where the imperium only controls most of their's

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:but considering that the imperium would strike back would be disable the entire Empire ground force. Because we know the imperium is known for kicking ass in counter attacks.

true, but the empire does control the entire galaxy where the imperium only controls most of their's

Maybe so, but that also means that the Imperium's troops are more battle-hardened, what with all the wars they fight.

valid point

Not only that but they are smarter in the Imperium. They are not some light headed Moran that has no sense of control. Even though they lose tons of men. They are actually do it quite efficently. Because they are fighting foes that have just recently come out. While the Empire has new recurits every day. But the Imperium has alot of harden veterans. And their Conscripts are wearing the same armor. And don't run a scream if they face other humans that are not from chaos.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:valid point

Thank you.
Although it would also be fair to say that Stormtroopers are no pushover either, at least in the expanded universe.

True but in the movies a stormtrooper did get owned only by luke and his buddies. But when they face rebels in the first movie they owned. only 5 died agianst and entire fire team of rebels.

Asherian Command wrote:True but in the movies a stormtrooper did get owned only by luke and his buddies. But when they face rebels in the first movie they owned. only 5 died agianst and entire fire team of rebels.

true but the rebels did get owned as well

Well they had clothing. Compared to battle armor. I think the Storm Troopers would of won even if it was a little equal. Storm troopers i do have to say are not push overs in the films they are but in the books they aren't

OFT

Just like space marines Except instead of movies its the table top game.

I just realized something rather important. Even if the Empire won,don't you think they'd be corrupted by chaos INCREDIBLY fast? Since they have no idea what it is, and since jedi are ALWAYS using "psychic" powers, they would be really vulnerable to chaos, which would completely destroy them. The empire would crumble against chaos. Or nids. Or tau. Or Orks. Nothing that the empire has ever fought is even remotely like tyranids or chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:but considering that the imperium would strike back would be disable the entire Empire ground force. Because we know the imperium is known for kicking ass in counter attacks.

true, but the empire does control the entire galaxy where the imperium only controls most of their's

Maybe so, but that also means that the Imperium's troops are more battle-hardened, what with all the wars they fight.

My thoughts exactly. They've got that whole "We'll destroy the enemies of the empire even if we have to die several times over, because the emperor's undying love for us will guide us through the blood-fog of battle and guide our laspistols straight into the hearts of our enemies" thing going on. They're incredibly good at moral justification by arguing that the emperor's will is absolute and that the greater good of the imperium comes before their very lives.

The Jedi / Sith dont use "psychic" powers, not as 40k knows it anyway.

Asherian Command wrote:lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

naval warfare?
In 40k Abbadon has the planet killer whereas no imperial ships can blow up an entire planet.... The Empire built 2 and could surley make more to combat the Imperium, hyperdrive also seems alot safer than warp travel.

also imperial ships from the empire seem more advanced than a SM one, and way more fighters. The emperor himself is a great strategist also none of you realize he could coerce the imperium to prehaps fight itself? to turn guardsmen to the empire?


and the emperors hand were a bunch of force weilding spec ops troops, im sure they could do some damage; i feel like the imperium's zealous fever would get the best of them.



Also not that 40k is usually played on even ground and in the star wars universe there are lava planets and ice balls and all sorts of gakky stuff,

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

naval warfare?
In 40k Abbadon has the planet killer whereas no imperial ships can blow up an entire planet.... The Empire built 2 and could surley make more to combat the Imperium, hyperdrive also seems alot safer than warp travel.

also imperial ships from the empire seem more advanced than a SM one, and way more fighters. The emperor himself is a great strategist also none of you realize he could coerce the imperium to prehaps fight itself? to turn guardsmen to the empire?


and the emperors hand were a bunch of force weilding spec ops troops, im sure they could do some damage; i feel like the imperium's zealous fever would get the best of them.



Also not that 40k is usually played on even ground and in the star wars universe there are lava planets and ice balls and all sorts of gakky stuff,

two? you mean three, or did you forget the emperor's super star destroyer the eclipse? it mounts a death star laser on it as well

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:lol. Space Marine Vs. Jedi. Hmmmmmm. I wonder who would win. A super human with the most advance weaponry and also having a weapon that is shooting C4 on krak. Or a Squrimy guy with a sword that can cut through anything. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
You can't block an explosion. Space Marine Wins!

Also Guardsmen and the Titans and not only that but everyone keeps forgeting the imperial navy's awesome space fighters that could go as fast as a Cobra from the Eldar. And those things could go fast.
But I would have to be iffy with the space battles. But the Imperium wins the ground war hands down thanks to titan's and super heavy vechiles. And not only that but legions of guardsmen and Space marine shock troops. (Reminds me I have to make Orbital Drop Space Marines) ODSM

naval warfare?
In 40k Abbadon has the planet killer whereas no imperial ships can blow up an entire planet.... The Empire built 2 and could surley make more to combat the Imperium, hyperdrive also seems alot safer than warp travel.

also imperial ships from the empire seem more advanced than a SM one, and way more fighters. The emperor himself is a great strategist also none of you realize he could coerce the imperium to prehaps fight itself? to turn guardsmen to the empire?


and the emperors hand were a bunch of force weilding spec ops troops, im sure they could do some damage; i feel like the imperium's zealous fever would get the best of them.



Also not that 40k is usually played on even ground and in the star wars universe there are lava planets and ice balls and all sorts of gakky stuff,

two? you mean three, or did you forget the emperor's super star destroyer the eclipse? it mounts a death star laser on it as well

QFT and i dont read up on BFG or anything but to imperium ships have shields at all? i just think the imperium would crumble since intergalactic battles would be fought and won in space.


and someone mentioned earlier how a SM could kill a force user easy. What if the force user crushed the bolter then ran in for the kill? What if they stopped the bolter rounds only to send them right back?

IoM ships have void shields don't they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's not strictly relevant to ground warfare though.

Yes, BFG have void shields, that seem geared to stopping energy weapons - no idea of the comparitive outputs of turbolasers vs lances though.

Guys, ground war only...

Lol. No one follows the rules

Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

@Felix-you don't know when to stop, "Do you?". Just leave the space battle out of it. Go look at the federation thread and you might understand why the OP doesn't want to discuss it in this thread.

As to the ground fight, You can claim that the IoM wins but you might want to bring evidence that supports your case.

felixthecat345 wrote:Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

Don't even need to do that. One thunderbolt can fly in and launch a torpedo down the DE's exaust pipe.

On Topic, now, what about special/elite units? Comparisons, anyone?

To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

well, an AT-AT has 4 linked Heavy Blaster cannons on its head, No shielding, but thick armour. we will give the HBCs the benifit of the doubt and make them each Str10 AP2 Heavy 1. we will also give the AT-AT 4 Structure points and AV14,13,12


a Reaver has 3 various weapons attached to it, one is an Appoclypse missile launcher(approximate fluff range, 500 kilometers), LaserBlaster(3 Turbolaser destructors), Gatling Blaster(6 Battle cannon pie plates).


the AT-ATs Blaster cannons fire, 2 out of 4 hit(a generous BS of 3 for the Stormtroopers on board), Reaver is down to 2 void shields.

Reaver attempts to Regenerate Void shields(IIRC it is a dice per down shield and it is on a 5+) 2/3s of a void is restored, Reaver opens up, Laserblaster will on average get 3 hits because of the size of the AT-ATs hull, Gatling blaster will get 2 direct hits, 1 scatter, but still on target and 2 partials, Missile launcher will get 4 hits.

3 Penetrating Hits from the Laserblaster, Gattling blaster needs 6s to glance. .5 glancing hits. missile launcher will get 1 Pen and 1 glance.

4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 3 Structure pts of damage.


AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons. 1.5 hit, reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to 1.16 voids.

Reaver regens shields, 3 rolls, 1 void restored for 2.16 voids. Reaver fires. Same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 2 Structure pts of damage.


AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons, 1.5 hit. reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to .5 voids.

reaver regens shields, reaver rolls 4 dice, 1.33 voids restored. Reaver fires, same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 1 Structure pts of damage.

AT-AT fires 3 blaster cannons, 1.5 hit. reaver loses 1.5 voids. reaver down to 0 voids.

reaver regens shields, reaver rolls 4 dice, 1.33 voids restored. Reaver fires, same as above
4 Penetrating hits will give 1 Structure Pt of damage, 1 Gun crew shaken and 1 drive crew shaken. glancing hit will give us another shaken. we will assume it was drive crew. AT-AT is down to 0 Structure pts of damage.

Reaver wins.







unless you give the AT-AT BS4 or better the Reaver will generate it's shields abck at around the same rate as the AT-AT can bring them down.

my math is far from perfect so if someone with ready access to the Appoc rule book(was doing this from memory) could do a double test that would be better.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

We already discussed this. There were only a couple of those dark troopers made,so they don't qualify as anything impotant that the IoM would have to worry about.

A reaver titan is so much more agile and has two insanely powerful weapons attached to it. ANY of those weapons could easily punch through an AT-AT with a single shot (Multi-laser,meltacannon,gatlling blaster,powerfist).

No contest what-so ever.

ALSO: To the above poster: I'd give the AT-AT BS2, to be honest. The guns on its face barely pivot,and the storm troopers operating it are probably not the smartest cookies.

You forgot that the AT-AT's come in squadrons.

well, so do Reavers.

and while the Reavers and Warlords are blasting each other a Few Dozen Warhounds are running among the AT-ATs blasting them with their Turbolasers and Plasma Blast guns.


AT-ATs may be the (almost)equilivent of a Reaver, but the Empire has no counter to Warhounds and Warlords.




also Titans NEVER operate alone. if there was a Squadron of AT-AT the IoM would send the Titans after them. my psuedo mathhammer above shows that, in game terms anyway, a AT-AT would last 4 turns under direct fire from a Reaver, but would do little to no lasting damage.

in real life(assuming both would be real) a reaver would likely aim for the legs and take out a AT-AT every 60 seconds. now 3 AT-ATs might be able to hurt a Reaver, but it would take concentrated fire and the Reaver would likely still come out on top.



Warhounds would have a grand time hunting AT-ATs. the AT-ATs might hit a Warhound at longrange, but once up close the Warhound would run circles around and behind the AT-ATs, firing its guns to full effect. Warhounds also always operate in pairs if not trios and if there was a few dozen AT-ATs advancing on an IoM position then 2 or 3 packs of Warhounds might be dispatched.


Warlords would just pound the AT-ATs from 50 Kilometers away with Missiles and they would go down before the AT-ATs even got a shot off.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

We already discussed this. There were only a couple of those dark troopers made,so they don't qualify as anything impotant that the IoM would have to worry about.

A reaver titan is so much more agile and has two insanely powerful weapons attached to it. ANY of those weapons could easily punch through an AT-AT with a single shot (Multi-laser,meltacannon,gatlling blaster,powerfist).

No contest what-so ever.

ALSO: To the above poster: I'd give the AT-AT BS2, to be honest. The guns on its face barely pivot,and the storm troopers operating it are probably not the smartest cookies.

I'm aware of that, I was using the Dark Trooper as an example.

@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the ST-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think th battles would be much more even than you let on.

focusedfire wrote:@Felix-you don't know when to stop, "Do you?". Just leave the space battle out of it. Go look at the federation thread and you might understand why the OP doesn't want to discuss it in this thread.

As to the ground fight, You can claim that the IoM wins but you might want to bring evidence that supports your case.

Fine, sorry, calm down.

Anyway, evidence:
GE: What do you have to match our AT-ATs?
IoM: Well, there's this: (enter baneblade)
GE: Yes, that's large, but no match for the power of our-
(enter warhound)
GE: That's more like it. It may be a match for an AT-AT on its own, but not with the dozens of troops that pore out of it.
(Rolls out Reaver)
GE: Well, we can always get more.
(Enter Warlord)
GE: OK, that's just terrifying.
(Enter Emperor)
GE: Holy son of a-POW!

Same with other tanks. Chimeras and sentinels may be matched by AT-STs, but a Leman will just destroy them. And a clone might test a guardsmen, but not if there's a million of them. Nothing else I can say that hasn't been said a million times before in this thread.

focusedfire wrote:@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the ST-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think th battles would be much more even than you let on.

An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

One word: TITAN

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

Yeah, good point about the Artillery.

But, you forgot about the Nipple Gun(Family Guy) that can destroy Capital ships in orbit(Empire Strikes Back).

focusedfire wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:An excellent point about outnumbering. However, it's got to be remembered that the IoM doesn't just use Titans to take out other super-heavies. There are still other specialised units to do that job, such as Shadowswords. Heck, even IG artillery will do the job provided they have enough numbers.

Yeah, good point about the Artillery.

But, you forgot about the Nipple Gun(Family Guy) that can destroy Capital ships in orbit(Empire Strikes Back).

The Ion (boob) cannon? That doesn't destroy ships. It merely disables them for a short while due to electronic interferance, but to be fair, it's still a moot point; you're dead in a battle if you're that helpless.

The Ion Cannon.

Sorry KillKrazy,
I know the name but Family Guy has warped me. I will try to keep the Family Guy humor to a more acceptable level.

DrownedRat117 wrote:One word: TITAN

One word response:
PHAIL!

focusedfire wrote:@Grey Templar- I don't know.

First, I believe that the AT-AT's do have shielding

Second From the fluff, the AT-AT's would vastly out number the Titans.

Third, The Warhounds and the 2-legged walkers would clash first.

Fourth, The Land Speeder rapid response teams would cause massive problems for the warhounds.

I think the battles would be much more even than you let on.

1) AT-ATs don't have shielding in the films and i have never encountered any in the expanded universe.

2) Yes, the AT-AT will out number the titans, but likely not enough to overcome them AND all the other Impierial weaponry capable of killing them.

3) a Warhound isn't going to stop for sentinal sized walkers with Multilasers, it will simply squish a few with its feet on the way to the AT-ATs and leave them to the Sentinals.

4) the battle won't be just, titans VS whatever the Empire can throw at them, there are the waves and waves of Skittarii, Cataphraktos, all the IG troops, and the Space marines.


i was going off the question "would AT-ATs be a match for Titans" and the answer is a definite NO. you would need a 12-1 match up before it came close

Havoc13 wrote:

DrownedRat117 wrote:One word: TITAN

One word response:
PHAIL!

QFT, methinks.

One thing all the detractors of the GE forget, Everytime the Stormtroopers are shown to be firing at the "Heros" I.E. Han, Luke etc. They were under orders to let them go.
So the BS2 or 3 is exactly that B.S.

Also Katarn armor (clone commando) can take a direct hit for a rail gun equivalent (Verpine) and not get penetrated. So the Bolters/las guns of the IoM fail miserably.

As for the post about Jedi (or Sith) vs a Space Marine. LOLcats. A Squad of Marines MIGHT be able to take a knight, not a master. even against a knight, it would be a close fight.
As for one on one... Jedi takes marine apart (literally), yes even a librarian.

AT-AT vs Titan... Good match. I think that it would be a tie. Larger titans, Vs a World Devestator? Titan would be snack food. Which the WD would then turn into arms/equipment for the empire.

As for all the comments about numerical superiority of the IoM, Wouldn't do much considering it take the IoM decades to centuries to respond to a war-zone or crisis, whereas the GE responds immediately. Holonet > IoM bureaucracy.

I'd give this one to the Galactic Empire. They are practically the same size as far as manufacturing and manpower is concerned (it spanned a million+ star systems), have equally powerful weapons, but have far more reliable communications and far faster travel. In addition, they are able to rapidly innovate and develop answers to any enemy (as evidenced by their rapid adaptability to Yuuzhan Vong previously unknown biotechnology).

And when it comes to the sheer balls it takes to do what's necessary, I think Papa Palpatine is more than a match for the most callous of High Lords of Terra.

As far as Jedi vs. Space Marines, it's a tough call. Order 66 showed Jedi to be kind of pansies when faced with a wall of firepower (not to mention they can't deflect solid shells). SM armor would probably slow the lightsaber a bit (much like a bulkhead), and a SM could take quite a few wounds from a saber before going down. As far as Force vs. Warp powers, the light side has little in the way of offensive capability compared to creating vortexes and the like. And anyway, why are Jedi even involved in this conflict? They were all dead in the Galactic Empire, or at least very near to it.

What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

IronfrontAlex wrote:What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

Not a bad point there, Alex. I think that actually, a SM versus Jedi fight would be more even than most people think. I mean, the Jedi have the force, but the SM have strength and near-insane courage, as well as the ability to resist mind-affecting powers due to iron willpower (to a certain extent of course!)

The various Dark Jedi that Kyle Katarn ran into were not part of the Galactic Empire, and all those events took place after the destruction of the second Death Star (i.e. death of the Emperor and shortly after the Empire itself).

Of course, we also have to consider that individual Jedi vary greatly in power. If we take Starkiller vs. oh let's say a company of Space Marines, I'm giving the win to Starkiller. http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-the-force/101182 See the "Betrayal" trailer for what I mean. Or even the world premiere trailer you can find on youtube.

felixthecat345 wrote:Well, wouldn't a death star get owned anyway? IoM could send in an ironclad ship mounting a planet-killer cannon and pawoosh the DS. Also, couldn't a nova cannon beat the crap out of a DS? They're innacurate but a DS is the size of a small planet.

On ground IoM would undoubtedly win

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:What about Dark jedi? like the one's from the dark forces series? they could definatley do some damage.

Not a bad point there, Alex. I think that actually, a SM versus Jedi fight would be more even than most people think. I mean, the Jedi have the force, but the SM have strength and near-insane courage, as well as the ability to resist mind-affecting powers due to iron willpower (to a certain extent of course!)

But Jedi would be able to doge essentially a rapid fire granade launcher, least i think they could if not force push the bolts back at the SM, maybe a 3+ save for doging ect as well. Not to mention if the force user is in Cloce combat they essentially have C'tan phase weapons. oh and a dasrk force user could choke a SM just as well as a Stormtrooper, armor? ok but you still have a throat right? im he's still choking it.

Omegus wrote:The various Dark Jedi that Kyle Katarn ran into were not part of the Galactic Empire, and all those events took place after the destruction of the second Death Star (i.e. death of the Emperor and shortly after the Empire itself).

Of course, we also have to consider that individual Jedi vary greatly in power. If we take Starkiller vs. oh let's say a company of Space Marines, I'm giving the win to Starkiller. http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-the-force/101182 See the "Betrayal" trailer for what I mean. Or even the world premiere trailer you can find on youtube.

the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Lol. No. Space Marines would just make the Dark Jedi Explode with lots of flamers. Hey you can't block a land Raider's lascannon. They can never face up to mass Artillery power. Only one man can. CHUCK................. Norris.
That and Mace Windu, Yoda, Darth Vader, Kit, and don't forget the totally awesome Dark Jedi That is Luke's wife. If they fought together then they would be able to handle a company of marines plus with some help from a couple hundred Jedi. Space marines have a solid bone mass so i don't think you can joke them. They would Regenerate quicker from the force. And its basically like putting a noobie psyker agianst a Fully Armored and Trained super soldiers that have been known to kill thousands of cultists.

And Not only that but Space Marines are no pushovers. In the books Space marines are RIGGED. They can take on hundreds of orcs by themselves. And not only that but Lasers agianst power armor will not work. Sniper rifle basically would kick jedi ass. Because in the horus hersey art work Space marine's Carried sniper rifles.

I want to point out 1 thing about jedi. They can't move faster than the speed of sound, a bullet can and an imperium las gun shot will be instantanious so jedi are unlikely to dodge them and would find it impossible to dodge them so for them to get into combat in the first place would be pretty problematic. Granted the light sabre would probably be far superior however in one of the books my skywalker gets into combat with a massive worm living in a volcano and hitting it with the lightsabre remove a single scale and causes the lightsabre to be pretty much destroyed so they aren't unstoppable and it seems likely that what would stop them would be heat shielding. Also if we're having fluff in this debate than any grey knights on the battlefield should destroy and GE they come across possibly baring jedi from this depending on the distance they are first spotted at. And concerning the psychic abilities of the imperium and GE seeing as with the danger of wri(warp related injury ) and the fact that a SW runepriest can take down tanks with his mind I would say that imperium probably have psychic powers in the bag especially when considering the number of possible candidates indicated by how the emporer is alive (in a sense)

Asherian Command wrote:Lol. No. Space Marines would just make the Dark Jedi Explode with lots of flamers. Hey you can't block a land Raider's lascannon. They can never face up to mass Artillery power. Only one man can. CHUCK................. Norris.
That and Mace Windu, Yoda, Darth Vader, Kit, and don't forget the totally awesome Dark Jedi That is Luke's wife. If they fought together then they would be able to handle a company of marines plus with some help from a couple hundred Jedi. Space marines have a solid bone mass so i don't think you can joke them. They would Regenerate quicker from the force. And its basically like putting a noobie psyker agianst a Fully Armored and Trained super soldiers that have been known to kill thousands of cultists.

And Not only that but Space Marines are no pushovers. In the books Space marines are RIGGED. They can take on hundreds of orcs by themselves. And not only that but Lasers agianst power armor will not work. Sniper rifle basically would kick jedi ass. Because in the horus hersey art work Space marine's Carried sniper rifles.

Bone mass? we're talking about closing the throat passage not breaking the neck here. And are we considering the force to be warp related or affected by warp? i don't think it would be nor would it be as risky to use. Another point look at starkiller and other force users that can mess stufff up (like obiwan throwing around Grevious, Windu crushing his armor, starkiller turning giant droids into metal balls) you don't think a powerful force user couldnt turn a LR into a giant messed up ball and sent it into the nearest titan/superheavy? what about (and i know im using him as too much of an example) starkillers ability to push a star destroyer into the ground? or Yoda's similar ability to make 2 droid transport ships crash into one another. These are not psi powers but bolologic and therefor unaffected by psi hoods.


OH OH and i just realized! what about jedi mind tricks and talking into people's heads? Yes the SMs are so zealous it would pretty much be impossible to trick one because of it's blind faith but what about imperial generals like IG ones? maybe trick an astropath into crashing the ship? ect ect. Jedi tactics can be affected even moreso off the battlefield.


and for the poster who mentioned the mara jade worm thing? There is the expanded universe Yzzang Vong war where this cretures used organic tech and were resistant to both force powers and lightsabers

IronfrontAlex wrote:the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Dark Forces 1 did not have Dark Jedi. Dark Forces 2 takes place one year after Return of the Jedi. And the discussion is Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire, not the Remnant. The Emperor used the Sith version of battle meditation to direct a large portion of his forces, which is why they fell into great disarray after his death, and the Rebellion started making enormous strides rather than tiny guerrilla-style wins here and there. Of course, Vader's penchant of executing talented commanders for minor errors kind of gutted their talent pool.

And my bad, I was mistaken about Jerek's affiliation, he was a member of Palpatine's Inquisitorius (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius). That being said, even assuming that's not a comprehensive list, there were only a few dozen of these Inquisitors, and most of them had their own clandestine projects they were working on. It's certainly nothing compared to the army of thousands of Jedi Knights the Old Republic had at its behest, so I don't think they would make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things (note I still think the GE would win this overall).

Although if we're talking purely a ground battle with absolutely no air superiority elements, and no logistical limitations, it'd be interesting to pit the Emperor, Vader, and their best Inquisitors vs. every Chapter Master and Company Captain.

Omegus wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:the Dark forces series takes place during and after the galactic civil war. Dark forces 1 and 2 take place during it (in between 4 and 5 and then 5 and 6) while mysteries of the sith to jedi academy take place after the battle of endor. BTW you need to remember there was still a HUGE imperial remnant after the second death star was destroyed. Sure the emperor was dead but there were still many imperial fleets and worlds around the galaxy. And during dark forces 2 the dark jedi jerec had stormtroopers and other imperial tech at his command soo...

Dark Forces 1 did not have Dark Jedi. Dark Forces 2 takes place one year after Return of the Jedi. And the discussion is Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire, not the Remnant. The Emperor used the Sith version of battle meditation to direct a large portion of his forces, which is why they fell into great disarray after his death, and the Rebellion started making enormous strides rather than tiny guerrilla-style wins here and there. Of course, Vader's penchant of executing talented commanders for minor errors kind of gutted their talent pool.

And my bad, I was mistaken about Jerek's affiliation, he was a member of Palpatine's Inquisitorius (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius). That being said, even assuming that's not a comprehensive list, there were only a few dozen of these Inquisitors, and most of them had their own clandestine projects they were working on. It's certainly nothing compared to the army of thousands of Jedi Knights the Old Republic had at its behest, so I don't think they would make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things (note I still think the GE would win this overall).

Although if we're talking purely a ground battle with absolutely no air superiority elements, and no logistical limitations, it'd be interesting to pit the Emperor, Vader, and their best Inquisitors vs. every Chapter Master and Company Captain.

It would be very very interesting. But i see people like palpatine and yoda going out in a hail of BS5 bolter fire; even though they would probably be off the battlefield. Vader, young obiwan, Maul, Katarn, Windu, Starkiller basically the jedi powerhouses would kill in CC against chapter masters much like a pheonix (sp?) lord would. No clunky armor and with probably better movement than a CM im thinking they would have higher initiative and WS would be better if not at least on par. Granted we wouldnt know if power weapons could block lightsabers (im assuming they would) and agaisnt most edge like saber hits the SM could take a whole lot more damage than these force users (with or without a personal shield i doubt Katarn is going to be bale to live through a power glaive vulkan thingy through the chest). I would say it would be a close fight but the jedi/sith would win that one.

Palpatine wouldn't be touched by that bolter fire, since he's certainly faster than any of those people except maybe Windu (it could easily be argued he lost that fight on purpose). Yoda is quite the powerhouse as well.

Omegus wrote:Palpatine wouldn't be touched by that bolter fire, since he's certainly faster than any of those people except maybe Windu (it could easily be argued he lost that fight on purpose). Yoda is quite the powerhouse as well.

He's right, you know. Palpatine and Yoda are combat beasts.

except a Jedi/sith can only block so many incoming rounds and he will get tired eventually.

Yoda could block an incoming tank round, but he would be vulnerable while doing so.



i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

Grey Templar wrote:except a Jedi/sith can only block so many incoming rounds and he will get tired eventually.

Yoda could block an incoming tank round, but he would be vulnerable while doing so.


i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

That's a good point; Jedi/Sith cannot block every round fired at them, and it only takes one shot to bring them down.

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

yeah, you can only block the rounds that are in a straight line(unless you put up a force shield) and if you do that with a Bolter round then you are in for quite a shock.

especially if you don't encounter rifles that fire exploding rounds. Rounds that sometimes have Mutagenic acid or Boiling hot plasma come out of them when they go pop.



also none of the Wars in the movies have ever been on the scale that the wars in 40k are fought on.

a single battle with a few thousand troopers may decide the fate of a planet in the Star Wars universe.

in the 40K universe a planetary batle will often involve Hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both sides. the Impierium of Man reglarley fights Ork invasions numbering in the Millions. How many Clones did Kamino originally produce to fight the Seperatists? 500,000 with a Million following after a fairly short time. the IoM, while it would take a good amount of time to get things started, once forces were joined could pump easily 1/2 a million men to a single planet every few weeks. they could do this to dozens of planets before they reached a point of maximum escalation ability.


once the IoM pain train is started it is unstoppable. the Empire would have to be producing Clones at a rate of nearly 1 million troopers every 6 months to even hope of stemming the tide. they might have a few years to produce a reserve, but they would quickly use it up.

and Yes, the Empire still uses Clones as Stormtroopers. the 501st is still entirely made up of Fett clones. they switched to multiple genetic templates and began production on other planets after a Clone rebellion on Kamino. the Empire also supplements its clones by recruiting normal humans, typically those who have graduated from the Space Acadamy and they are used as Fighter pilots.


the problem is the Empire probably wouldn't realize just how many soldiers it would need to fight the IoM before it was too late. the Impierial Army would be sent out, it would sustain heavy casualities(even if the SW tech is "better" then IoM tech), casualities would get replaced, but a meat grinder would result and eventually the sheer numbers of IG, combined with lightining strikes by SM chapters would trash the Empires army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

clones still take 9 years to grow to fighting age. the IoMs natural reproductive rate would far outstrip the abilities to clone troopers. even if the Empire had a Dozen worlds producing a Million clones annualy the IoM has a Million worlds that it can draw upon for manpower.

the IoM can raise a Million men in 2 months and it can do this for a practically unlimited amount of time. it takes the Empire 9 years to raise the equilivent amount of men.



also SMs would conduct raids on any cloning worlds rather quickly. since the Empire couldn't detect the IoM ships when they are in Warp space they would have no warning and the SMs could be on the ground within 18 minutes of attaining orbit.

Both Empires are similar in size and population, although the IoM is probably more efficient at churning out doodz to set us up the bomb in your base. However, we're assuming a ground battle on one planet here. Since we've pretty much established the GE's superiority when it comes to space combat (much faster, completely safe travel, equal power guns, more powerful super-weapons), how would the IoM bring reinforcements to the planet?

And Palpatine doesn't need to deflect the bolter rounds with his saber, since he'd know which rounds would pass him by, which to dodge, and which to deflect with the force (Yoda being similarly gifted). After all, Vader didn't bother blocking or dodging laser bolts, he just caught them with his hands, and he was maybe 3/4ths of Palpatine's power. And I think bringing up Starkiller is unfair; if we reference the trailer I posted on the previous page, he would destroy a chapter single-handedly.

If the conflict is limited to Space Marines + Titan Legions vs. Stormtroopers with walker support, however, the battle would go to the IoM hands down.

Omegus wrote:Both Empires are similar in size and population, although the IoM is probably more efficient at churning out doodz to set us up the bomb in your base. However, we're assuming a ground battle on one planet here. Since we've pretty much established the GE's superiority when it comes to space combat, how would they bring reinforcements to the planet?

Erm, I dispute that assertion. . .

Have you seen the size reference chart? An imperial Star Destroyer, the top-of-the-line capital ship of the Empire, is about half the size of an IoM battleship. Granted, a Super Star Destroyer is much, much larger. . . but there are very, very few Super Star Destroyers.

I think in a protracted space campaign the Empire might be able to bring superiority of numbers to bear, but in a single battle the IoM's larger, better-protected and more heavily-armed starships crush the Empire's ships.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, you can only block the rounds that are in a straight line(unless you put up a force shield) and if you do that with a Bolter round then you are in for quite a shock.

especially if you don't encounter rifles that fire exploding rounds. Rounds that sometimes have Mutagenic acid or Boiling hot plasma come out of them when they go pop.



also none of the Wars in the movies have ever been on the scale that the wars in 40k are fought on.

a single battle with a few thousand troopers may decide the fate of a planet in the Star Wars universe.

in the 40K universe a planetary batle will often involve Hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both sides. the Impierium of Man reglarley fights Ork invasions numbering in the Millions. How many Clones did Kamino originally produce to fight the Seperatists? 500,000 with a Million following after a fairly short time. the IoM, while it would take a good amount of time to get things started, once forces were joined could pump easily 1/2 a million men to a single planet every few weeks. they could do this to dozens of planets before they reached a point of maximum escalation ability.


once the IoM pain train is started it is unstoppable. the Empire would have to be producing Clones at a rate of nearly 1 million troopers every 6 months to even hope of stemming the tide. they might have a few years to produce a reserve, but they would quickly use it up.

and Yes, the Empire still uses Clones as Stormtroopers. the 501st is still entirely made up of Fett clones. they switched to multiple genetic templates and began production on other planets after a Clone rebellion on Kamino. the Empire also supplements its clones by recruiting normal humans, typically those who have graduated from the Space Acadamy and they are used as Fighter pilots.


the problem is the Empire probably wouldn't realize just how many soldiers it would need to fight the IoM before it was too late. the Impierial Army would be sent out, it would sustain heavy casualities(even if the SW tech is "better" then IoM tech), casualities would get replaced, but a meat grinder would result and eventually the sheer numbers of IG, combined with lightining strikes by SM chapters would trash the Empires army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the war would devolve into a war of attrition and that would be a war the IoM would win, eventually. they are in no rush, they have all eternity.

This is why I think the GE would win. The IoM still relies upon a naturally grown guardsmen wHile the IoM has a much more quickly replaced clones.

clones still take 9 years to grow to fighting age. the IoMs natural reproductive rate would far outstrip the abilities to clone troopers. even if the Empire had a Dozen worlds producing a Million clones annualy the IoM has a Million worlds that it can draw upon for manpower.

the IoM can raise a Million men in 2 months and it can do this for a practically unlimited amount of time. it takes the Empire 9 years to raise the equilivent amount of men.



also SMs would conduct raids on any cloning worlds rather quickly. since the Empire couldn't detect the IoM ships when they are in Warp space they would have no warning and the SMs could be on the ground within 18 minutes of attaining orbit.

1)The GE unlike the IoM does have the tech to shield their troops. If the idiotic gungans can have it then so would the GE.

2) You are ignoring the process of raising those troops. Despite your claim otherwise, The IoM does not have an unending source of new recruits. The number of recruits is strictly balanced to maintain production levels.

3)Each crusade is given a specific requisition of units and troops. If the amount of the requisition needs ro be changed it will take several lifetimes to get the approval through the bueacracy. Then there is the training, Marshalling of these new forces, acquiring transport, and subsequent travel time yo deploy.

4)Jedi/Sith would forsee the attacks and destroy the SM's as they emerged from the warp.


Edge goes to the GE

Do I have to say this again? Bullets are faster than sound. If you fire a hail of them if someone dodges one they hit another, if they get hit atall their dead. And no living organism could change directon that rapidly even if they did know the shot was coming before hand because you can lessen an impact from landing after a jump but the force involved in moving out the way of a bullet would likely cause many breaks and like I said all you'd need is constant fire. you can't dodge a wall of bullets. Also I'd like to see a jedi's reaction to a vortex grenade.

And lasers are the speed of light, and yet their reflexes allow them to bat them away with impunity.

you slice a bolt in half. it will completely disappear or explode. in the latter you are wounded or you concentration lost. Heavy bolter: shell cut in half, each half still moving, charge may ignite, somehow hot looking quite so good. No natter how fast you are you also can't be in two places at once so a hail of bullets only requires a few to be travelling simultaneously to remove a jedi from existence.

focusedfire wrote:
1)The GE unlike the IoM does have the tech to shield their troops. If the idiotic gungans can have it then so would the GE.

the shield tech is a definite advantage, but the IoM could drop them with weight of fire pretty quickly, also SW shield tech doesn't stop solid objects like missiles and bullets, only energy weapons(battle cannon barrage FTW )[/b]

2) You are ignoring the process of raising those troops. Despite your claim otherwise, The IoM does not have an unending source of new recruits. The number of recruits is strictly balanced to maintain production levels.

[b]True, they don't have an unending supply of troops(Darn close), but as i said before the Empire probably couldn't increase the production to meet the need before the IoM overwhealmed them

3)Each crusade is given a specific requisition of units and troops. If the amount of the requisition needs ro be changed it will take several lifetimes to get the approval through the bueacracy. Then there is the training, Marshalling of these new forces, acquiring transport, and subsequent travel time yo deploy.

true, Dat

4)Jedi/Sith would forsee the attacks and destroy the SM's as they emerged from the warp.

ummmm, No. Battle Barges and Strike cruisers are much larger, have thicker armour, better shields(can stop solid objects) and many more guns then any Empire ships and they could easily retreat before being destroyed. AND We are talking the Empire here, No Jedi for starters and Palpatine and Vader can't be everywhere at once and they would have to be on the planet that was about to be attacked. the message would get there too late.


Edge goes to the GE

@Grey Templar: That was pretty fast shooting there

Jedi in 40k. high initiative, power weapon, high attacks, good leadership, good strength. Low toughness, 1 at max 2 wounds, no armour save, 4 or 3+ invul from reflexes? nothing to protect from instant death. perhaps 12 in assault. Well think how many shots are really needed. only a very small number on the battlefield.

Also imperium of man from what era? pre or post Horus Heresy?

Grey Templar wrote:
the shield tech is a definite advantage, but the IoM could drop them with weight of fire pretty quickly, also SW shield tech doesn't stop solid objects like missiles and bullets, only energy weapons(battle cannon barrage FTW )[/b]

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

Grey Templar wrote:
[b]ummmm, No. Battle Barges and Strike cruisers are much larger, have thicker armour, better shields(can stop solid objects) and many more guns then any Empire ships and they could easily retreat before being destroyed. AND We are talking the Empire here, No Jedi for starters and Palpatine and Vader can't be everywhere at once and they would have to be on the planet that was about to be attacked. the message would get there too late.

Jedi/Sith do not need to be everywhere. They Forsee the problem before it occurs and then using the GE's efficient/near-instantaneous communication systems they send a strike force that uses a reliable FtL to get the units where they need to be. BTW, Imperial fluff says that comming out of warp creates a period of vulnerability for the IoM battle fleets.

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

only when the GE is behind shields and unless their front line is just behind the shield it'd be easy enough to walk through it making it useless or jut knock out the generator with a different sort of weapon e.g. kinetic (like a barrage of battlecannon shells) or thermal (as in delivered by plasma from, lets say a plasma destructor) or by using a missile bombardment or even better a couple of vortex missiles shot from far behind the lines tearing the target to pieces.

BTW, Imperial fluff says that comming out of warp creates a period of vulnerability for the IoM battle fleets.

current spacetime theories suggest the by using FTL travel the battle would have been over for several thousand years when they got there

focusedfire wrote:So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

Vader sends in Starkiller, Starkiller kills everyone, battle ends.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rowan341 wrote:

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

To exactly the same extent that the Empire's own weapons don't work, since they are ALL energy-based and ALL blocked by shields. If anything, the IoM will have an advantage over the Empire's normal foes, because many of their weapons are kinetic in nature.

your miss-quoting me. look up the page a bit and you will see I was quoting someone else in haste as I have an exam tomorrow and I am going to get some rest now. I am going to check back here tomorrow.

rowan341 wrote:

So you aknowledge that the bulk of the IoM's standard anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons wont work.

only when the GE is behind shields and unless their front line is just behind the shield it'd be easy enough to walk through it making it useless or jut knock out the generator with a different sort of weapon e.g. kinetic (like a barrage of battlecannon shells) or thermal (as in delivered by plasma from, lets say a plasma destructor) or by using a missile bombardment or even better a couple of vortex missiles shot from far behind the lines tearing the target to pieces.

Spin it how you like, it is a huge advantage and the GE has KE weapons that they wold be firing out along with there energy weapons.

rowan341 wrote:
current spacetime theories suggest the by using FTL travel the battle would have been over for several thousand years when they got there

Fine the Hyperspace which does not have this problem.

BTW, Hows that 10% of toyr forces lost to the warp working for you?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

To exactly the same extent that the Empire's own weapons don't work, since they are ALL energy-based and ALL blocked by shields. If anything, the IoM will have an advantage over the Empire's normal foes, because many of their weapons are kinetic in nature.

1)Untrue, The GE is full of KE weapons.

2)May be, theGE uses sequencers to allow for shooting out. Failing that they stick the weapons barrel throught the shield.

Did someone in this thread just say a Vortex missile would be ineffective against Empire vechiles?
XD
That is probaly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. !!!!!!CONGRATS YOU GET THE DUMBASS AWARD!!!!!

Let me set this straight. Their weapons in the Star wars universe use lasers. Basically Lascannons on walkers. Ion Cannons are stun guns basically they are massive EMP weapons. But they won't work on Void Shields. As it seems that they are powered by Warp Generators. Not Eletrical cores. Plasma Cores are found in Some Imperial Navy Ships.
Ok AND NO USING SPACE VECHILES!
ONLY GROUND WARFARE!
READ THE DAMN RULES!
Also the Space Marines would just fire a Plasma Cannon and bomb a Jedi is dead. Ever Since this plasma bolt moves faster than the speed of SOUND. No living being psyker or not can move that fast. Only one being can but that's not the point. The Point is no one can move the speed of sound. Or else you would die from super speed movement. Superheroes can but they are bloody comics. Anyway the Imperial guardsmen could turn but the thing is that Why would they follow a Person that they were at war with and were killing their people? They are basically two opposites. One stood for reason and hate and corruption. The other the survival of the human race and its unification.

Precognition trumps a speed of sound projectile, although a few devastator squads combining fire would undoubtedly fry their target regardless of whether he sees it coming or not.

So as I said before:

Limited (unrealistic) ground war --> Imperium
Galactic-scale conflict --> Empire

Ok so Imperial won. But I would have disagree. They are evenly matched when it comes to Space Battles.

It would become a battle of logistics, in which the Empire is far superior. Significantly faster and far less risky travel, near instantaneous communication over massive distances, and their planet-destroying-level weapons are far more effective.

Failbaddon's Planet Killer took about 20 minutes to destroy it, the Death Star took about 10 seconds and most of that was "commencing primary ignition".

No it takes targeting. And not only that but the imperium has far more fire power in its regular fighters. Ok. One ship filled with high teenagers took out the death star. I don't think the Empire has a chance against the pilots of the Imperial Navy..

I just remembered this. In 40K 1"=3' This mwans thayt the majority of the IoM's weapons have an effective range of 226 feet or less. Only a giant mortar, the Basilisk, and the Deathstrike can shoot further than a foot ball field.

I believe the visuals in the The Empire Strike Back point to the GE having weapons of a greater range than the IoM.

i belive we are comparing the Fluff, NOT the rules as Star Wars doesn't exist in an equilivent gaming system.

focusedfire wrote:I just remembered this. In 40K 1"=3' This mwans thayt the majority of the IoM's weapons have an effective range of 226 feet or less. Only a giant mortar, the Basilisk, and the Deathstrike can shoot further than a foot ball field.

that's to make the game playable as otherwise huge tables would be needed and it would be impractical so fluff is the only thing to go by for ranges.

And just out of interest how mobile were the death stars because they seemed pretty stationary to me. Oh I forgot to say one thing that people are apparently missing in the whole space battle that wasn't even included by the OP. FTL or "hyperdrive" means you travel very fast but still have to pass through space on the way so any stellar objects would cause huge problems where as the imperium warp drive technology seems to be more along the lines of enter here, appear here not occupying the in between space. And so although IoM does suffer losses in the warp it does allow them to avoid any objects like for example any sort of ambushes or asteroid fields and the like where as "hyperdrive" would require the speed to be dropped to navigate around. I don't care how much armour is on a ship a rock the size of a building hitting it at speeds faster than light will cause major damage

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:To further flesh out my previous post, it would be a good idea to examine both armies elite units: Space Marines versus Phase III Dark Troopers, AT-ATs versus a similar-sized titan (I suggest Reaver-class) and so on.

AT-ATs aren't elite. They are a dime a dozen assault transports like IoM's common chimera. GE has not titan comparable.

rowan - that is why good sensors are a must - and why the Kessel Run is measured in parsecs (its how close you can get to black holes and the like)

They do seem to be able to drop from lightspeed back into real space close to planets, unlike the Imperium, and there were no noted tales I have found of accidents at hyperdrive, apart from around massive real space phenomena like black holes where they were delibvertately flying closer than expected..