Thanks for posting that Killkrazy,

I'm still meh about the model but would buy it in plastic if they were jetbikes. Having a FA choice or troop choice that can boost 24" getting 3+ coversaves for a rapid re-deployment is very much how I view the Tau being philosophically.

If the unit is troops then keep the pulse rifles.

If its a FA then I could see the bikes having a single rail rifle if the squad size is kept to 6 or under.

I don't know what squad upgrades that the unit would get unless it was the markersystem. But, I'd hope that came included as part of the squad.

Kilkrazy wrote:This is a Tetra.



http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/tetra.htm

It's got two pulse rifles under the nose and a markerlight on top of the roof/tail bit. This would probably work as a twin-linked pulse rifle, which doesn't strike me as being a very useful armament for a vehicle, but would distinguish it from a suit. The markerlight would need to be fire on the move. I could see it rolled out as a kind of heavy bike in squadrons of 1-5. Depending on point value, it could replace Pathfinders.

I think it's a nice looking vehicle and would make a great polystyrene kit. The Forge World cost is £30 for two resin kits.

Thanks heaps Kilkrazy for the Tetra picture. Your my new Tau friend *hi fives kilkrazy* ^_^

I could see the markerlight working with the position and setup.

Hmmm... focusedfire, your right. It's not a good looking model. I would prefer the drawn up one from eailer up - https://share.acrobat.com/adc/adc.do?docid=8c308186-dbfd-11dc-a7df-2743035249fa

focusedfire wrote:
As to the jetbike and what I think it will be:

WS2 BS4 S3 T3(4) W1* A1 I2 Ld8 Sv 3+
Unit type: Jetbike(Not the eldar one)
Weapons: Twin-link Pulse rifles*
Squad size: 6-12*

* If the bikes end up being 2-man Tetra types then the bikes will have 2 wounds, a secondary markerlight weapon and the unit size will be 3-6.

I'd love it if they got rail rifles but if GW didn't take the common sense approach and allow stealth teams to take the rifle drones when they introduced them. Then I don't think there is anyway that a Jetbike with the Eldar move 12" and always assualt any direction 6" will evr happen.

If the bikes only have pulse rifles they never will get used. The tau need more S5 AP5 shots in the army like they need a fifth finger. If anything give them burst cannons and allow for better weapon upgrades. Thanks to the prevaliance of pulse rifles, pulse carbines, SMS systems, and burst cannons, the bikes need to carry something different. Heavy 2 ion cannons would be uber cool (half range of course because they are mounted on bikes).

If the bikes are troops and not overly expensive they'd be very useful with the pule weaponry. The ability to rapidly redeploy and to laydown accurate S5 fire should not be underestimated.

I, also, believe that if the Tau get jetbikes that GW will not let them out gun the pirahnas. (A moment of pleading to the game designers)Please, Let the Tau get Fusion Cannons as options for the pirahnas and other tanks. Also, please let the devilfish get the long barreled burstcannon with it 36" range and strength 6 ap 4 goodness.

focusedfire wrote:If the bikes are troops and not overly expensive they'd be very useful with the pule weaponry. The ability to rapidly redeploy and to laydown accurate S5 fire should not be underestimated.

I, also, believe that if the Tau get jetbikes that GW will not let them out gun the pirahnas. (A moment of pleading to the game designers)Please, Let the Tau get Fusion Cannons as options for the pirahnas and other tanks. Also, please let the devilfish get the long barreled burstcannon with it 36" range and strength 6 ap 4 goodness.

Really? At what point costs, 25 points each, 150 points for 6? You think 6 S5 shots are going to matter? The only things at AP5 is all that useful at killing like to bring 20 or so of their buddies to the party. Suddenly you wish you could trade those 6 shots in for the 15 shots from an equal points of fire warriors.

The only advantages they being troops is the obvious doesn't take up a fast/elite slot (which is huge) and the last turn objective grab run. And with random game length, its not all that great when they get there and your opponent magically has another turn to kill them. Remember, these are not SM bikers. T4 is not T5, LD 8 is not a sure thing against any sort of return fire moral check and or tankshock. Worse, they will still drop like flies if anything charges them.

Making them troops puts a huge target on their heads. Most things (with the obvious exception of meltas) that can take out 3+ armor save can also take them down at range equal to or greater than the 30" of the pulse rifle. Add in the larger size that most bike models are and the new TLOS rules, these guys won't be around very long.


As for the Pirahna, I expect that when the Tau get reworked eventually, we can expect possilbly great changes. Just like the IG got a ton of new weaponry, so may the Tau. Our current Pirahna may magically get better weapon options than just our current lowly burst cannon or fusion blaster.

@ Jayden,
Actually, 25 pts for six extra highly mobile markerlights on the field that can move and shoot?

A D**N site better than what we got now. The range 30 always(even when moving) is just icing on the cake.

All that mobility and extra toughness for less than what you buy a Pathfinder team for now.

Just my opinion mind you.

No, they'd get used and the Taus opponents would cry velveeta(cheese)

If they can somehow take markerlights, then their usefulness increases, but they would have to go the attack bike route (in which case they probably wont stay a troop choice) and get a marker light for a secondary weapon. The forgeworld Tetra's have an armor value, thus troop or not makes them automatically non-scoring. And if they stay bikes, alla all other bikes, they wont be getting markerlights.

I also expect Pathfinders to get reworked as well. Too expensive and fragile for how things work in 5th ed.

Thats what would make it distinctive enough to be Tau.

GW changing the FW stats is not that unheard of. The gundrones used to not deploy at the same time in the old FW pirahna rules.

The Tau don't really need another skimmer but making themthe Tau equivalent to the Eldar Guardian jetbikes wold be cool.

A two man team would could fire both or a single man team could/would if the bikes had access to crisis suit multi-trackers(Making the squad even more Tau like.

Hmm... so a 2 man jet-bike using tau jet-pack rules with twin-linked pluse rifles and markerlight. Seems to fit a nice Tau niche very nicely. Needs to be a tad more costly than pathfinders less no one would take them now, wouldn't they?

Wait... scrach what i said. Just read the rest of the post ;p

Focusedfire is right... the tau DON'T need another skimmer (we got tons already, thanks)

@Jayden63, not just pathfinders need a rework. Fire warriors need some survivability fix as well. Kroot need to get their rules fixed and with at least I4

Heh... We also can't forget the focus with apoc rules these days. Every man and his dog love to field those crazy super weapons. Other than the stuipd dino thingy, what else we got?

The Tiger Shark, Barracuda, and the Manta. Tau Apoc heavies come in the form of Flyers.

Though, I wouldn't mind it if they made a superheavy version of the hammer head with twin-linked heavy railguns

Superscope wrote:

Railguns wrote:Manta. Carries the whole hunter cadre.


I don't have a problem with the jetbike idea proposed. As it is the sniper drone team may be overcosted but an ultra-mobile version with twin-linked and a higher bs option should cost about the same(or slightly more) if it doesn't get the stealth protection.

Your right about the sniper drone team being overcosted, but stealth protection with them mean little.

The Stealth generator forces the shooting unit to take a night fighting test which as we all know is 2d6x3. Sadly a stealth generator is hardly useful in most times it's been used. With that roll people can see between 9" and 54" which more than 50% of the time it's enough for pretty much any unit to see and fire basic weapons at them (24" for ya boltgun). Sure, it could save you from some really far ranged weapons, but considering that the USER's weapons are often gimped by their own range restriction (12 or 18 for stealth suit, 36" for sniper drones) and thanks to everything able to move futher than before thanks to running the stealth generator has lost alot of appeal...

If stealth generators were to be "useful" they need to be 2d6x2, not 2d6x3. Oh, and the stealth generators bonus of "counting as in cover" doesn't work if enemies use frag genrades.. which i believe is pretty much becoming standardized for each army.

I seem to recall back in 4th edition that stealthsuits were great because they could fire at 18 inches then jump back six, putting them at about 24 and thusly enemy units had about a 50% chance to see them at all. Has this changed in 5th? I would expect a unit that fires 12" even farther out would definitely ttake advantage of stealth.

Sniper drones can't shoot and move since they're not Jetpacks, they're Infantry (same as the controller). And, if the unit takes 4 wounds, you have to put one on the controller, which means it's a 50/50 that the whole unit goes away - if a drone controller is killed, all drones assigned to him are also removed.

The problem is that sniper drone teams are 80 points, or about the cost of two crisis suits or three stealth suits. They're not horrible on their stats, which are OK, but they're bad based on point cost and taking up a valuable Heavy Support choice.

They can work, and some people swear by them. But, they're not OMG great. Also, with the increase in 4+ cover saves in Fifth, the AP3 is not nearly as attractive as it was in fourth.

I'm not advocating sniper teams, I know they suck. I'd rather they act like detachments that deploy in support of Firewarrior teams as one large troops choice that acts as two units.(and cost less points) They don't offer any real competition to Broadsides or Hammerheads so fit them where they work best.

I think Sniper Drones work well at low-points games. They can give you a lot of good AP3 shots for cheaper than a Hammerhead, and their stealth fields make it hard for them to get shot at.

It's the only unit that stealth fields work in full effect, mainly because it weapon is at a good range unlike stealth suits

Said it before and will again. Sniper drones need to be controlled by a stealth suit so they have mobility.

The sniper teams work almost OK but their inability to move and fire kills it for me.

Part of this reason is I spend a lot of time agains armies that move 12" and still shoot. SM/BT landspeeders with their scout move+12"move means that they can usually see the snipers in first turn.

Now with stealthsuits they could be placed furthe back and moved forward and on some crazy missions I might deep strike them.

I think the mobile rail-rifle platform may be best served with the pathfinder-bike and not drones. The concept of sniper drones is a solid one; it just isn't implemented well.

I'm not totally familiar with the Tau codex, but I've played games with Tau players. I like the fact that they're strictly shooty, but I feel that with all their firepower (S5 basic battle rifle) that the basic Firewarrior squads are underpowered due to their lack of CC abilities. I know that's why the Kroot are there. Being as how I always envisioned Tau tactics, what if you had the option to not take kroot and still survive assaults? I'm not talking about giving them a better WS, but rather giving the fully upgraded leader an ability option that allowed the stand and fire rule regardless. It's a sick rule, so it would have to be somewhat costly, and it doesn't give FW's any capabilites for their own assault phases. But defensively speaking it would make other units think twice before assaulting them head on. Allow them to rapid fire so they all basically get two WS3 S5 attacks ONCE when assaulted. After the FW unit is locked in CC they lose this ability so they're still vulnerable to secondary assaults. Opponents can change tactics to negate this too by assualting first with cheap units to soak the casualties, and then assaulting with more specialized units after they're engaged.
You have to pay for it, it can be worked around by other players, and it keeps the FW's tactical role in the back field the same. I like the idea.

In general, they need to lose Drone Controllers and just have Drones assigned to the unit. That way, you don't have to take off 20-60 extra points for losing one model. I'd be okay with having drones removed if all 'tau' models in the unit are gone, but I don't think it's game breaking if the drones stick around (but are maybe only Ld 5 or 6). I'd also be okay if drones had a 'mindlock' rule, maybe they stay Ld 7 but need to pass a Ld test if there are no Tau in the unit.

For Sniper Drone teams, just change it to be 1-3 controllers in the unit, and for each controller, the unit can have up to 3 sniper drones added for +X points. You'd have a total unit size of up to 3 controllers and 9 drones.

I don't know about that. Even then as a HS choice its not better or as good as the other options.

I really feel, especially with whats coming out for the IG, that the codex emphasis will be on making the army more of what it currently is starting first at the troop level and working up.

This would mean manuveable shootiness. This is what makes me think of a jetbike scoring unit.

It's funny that after playing both Tau and Eldar how much The mechdar army plays like the tau used too. The tactics with the waveserpents and dire avengers plays just like fish of fury. Fire Prisms are very close to Hammerheads. Its like Tau guns are 1 point stronger and the army is one step slower than the Eldar. The Tau just don't have the strong midrange weaponry of the Eldar. So Fire Warrior jetbikes tie in with the sorta like Eldar theme, IMO.

Its also funny how you can pick up clues just from reading the new BRB rules on Jet-packs.
Marker lights will be almost a guaranteed option if not standard. I also see the possibility of the rail rifles coming in as an option just due to the amount of ap3 goodness GW is handing out in 5th ed.

Considering that about 1/2 of the Tau army units that are used in the average game (XV8,XV25, drone sqauds) have relentless, perhaps we will see alot more heavy weapons applied to them?

I've came up with a brain-storm btw ^_^

XV25 Stealth suits - Option to switch ALL burst cannons for fusion blasters, not just every 1 in 3, with a free emp grenade for the XV25 shas'uve, Stealth Generator rolling rule is now 2d6x2. That would give them great flexability compaired to the poor limitations now. From what i've seen, almost everyone fields a stealth suit unit with 6 burst cannons. >.>

XV8 Crisis suits - Ability to count twin-linked weapons as a single weapon (mainly because the costs of some of the crisis weapons are way too pricey, plasma rifle for example) and can be weilded in a way the Forge World Tau hero can. Grenade launcher (mini frag-projector) weapon option (Same as the IG version, twin linkable)

XV88 Broadside suits - Ability to switch to twin-linked plasma rifles at no cost.

Fire Warrior teams - Photon Grenades for free (optional, player may choose NOT to take them if he/she wishs), 1+ BS

Kroot Carinvor Sqauds - Fieldcraft removed, Given Stealth, move thu cover and Fleet. Kroot gain I4 (Kroot are NOT standing melee troops btw)

Pathfinder teams - May take Sinper drones (1-2), 1+BS, removed the requirement for a devilfish troop transport.

Hammerhead gunship - Slight point cost reduction

Skyray gunship - Slight point cost reduction

Devilfish Troop Transport - Slight point cost reduction, may be a dedicated transport to a unit.

Shield Drones - cost increased, yeilds the unit attached to the drone a 4+ invunable save however if wounds are scored on the unit the drones MUST take the wounds first. (Gives infanty units a chance to shoot/fight before getting shot to peices on turn 1-2)

Etheral - Bodyguard unit no longer costs extra, gains 1+BS and +1T, however the unit no longer counts as scoring.

Commander Farsight - XV8 Suits count as scorable units and may also be taken as a troop choice. Removed prefered enemy - orks. All units gain +1WS, +1T and +1I. Can not take any non-tau unit (Kroot, vespid) or etherals. May take crisis teams in 1-5 instead of 1-3. Bodyguard unit size unchanged. May take Power Blades with crisis suits (Farsight's crisis teams only weapon ^_^). Breakaway faction rules still apply. Cost increased.

Aun'va, master of the undying spirit - 2 Etheral Bodyguards are also reinforced with a elite fire warrior team of 24 with 1+ BS over the norm. Aun'va, in the shooting phase, may give a "Empowering Speech" to a single unit(Not his own!) within line of sight (he uses the unit's comm link to speak with them if the unit is really far). Til the start of the player's next turn, the unit's armor saves become invunable saves, gain stubbon USR and +1 to all stats other than wounds. Paradox staff rules unchanged. Cost greatly increased.

Commander Shadowsun - Given a twin-linked missile pod with a advanced multi-tracker/target lock setup (Ability to fire 3 weapons a turn, each at different targets). Drone options unchanged. Command-link drone range is now 24". Stealth generator rolling is now 2d6x2. Cost increased

Major idea for a Tau titan btw ^_^

Fluff first up

"The tau empire has expanded greatly over the last short milenina, however when the imperium of man deployed large super-heavy units the tau had been dumnfound at such overwheilming power. While the fire caste, with assistance of the air caste, managed to defeat such giants but at great costs. After several stealth teams attempts at recovering infomation, they learnt that the greatest of these weapons the imperium fielded was a huge walker called a "Titan". The earth caste, having been transmitted this infomation, began designs of a titan for the greater good. Incorperating the basic idea of many different types and variants of suits, the XV100 "Catastrophe" was born. A Giant 4 legged walker. The XV100 is to be used on battlefields with prolong engagement (50 to 150 days, the tau can not field the tactic of attriction) where any type of static base was ineffective. Because of this, the XV100 is used as a large mobile base with overwhelming firepower to devestate incoming targets with added light production abilities to repair the many suits of the tau empire and to build many small arms for the fire caste"

XV100 "Catastrophe" moblie base titan - 650 points

Structure points - 3

BS - 4

AV 14 / 14 / 11

Crew - 5 fire caste pilots, 15 earth caste engineers and 6 fire caste medics

Transport - May Hold upto 6 XV suits, or 24 normal passangers

Hatches - A single large door on the rear for XV suits to enter and deploy.

Comes with Transport bay, Battlefield Engineering bay, a twin-linked "Rail Devestator" ( 140" range, Str D, ap 1, Heavy 2) and 6 long barrelled burst cannons (3 mounted on the left and right sides each)


You may replace both the transport bay and the battlefield engineering bay for a Plasma Shield Generator for 50 pts

You may replace the the following with it's counterpart listed below at no cost.

Battlefield Engineering bay <--> Drone bay
Transport bay <--> Multi-Seeker missile Launchers
Twin-Linked Rail Devestator <--> Fusion Devestator.


Special rule - Battlefield repair - During the movement phase, any tau unit with a XV suit inside the XV100 may attempt a repair on a roll of a 4+, fixing damage on the suit while the pilot receves fast treament for any injuries. A sucessive repair roll restores 1 wound. The suit then may deploy from the XV100 but will be unable to move (this result is regardless if the unit passed or failed, he may still make his assasult move if the model is equipped with a jetpack however)

Upgrades and features

Drone bay - The Engineering bay's space is used to hold a bay of deployable and rebuildable drones. At the start of each turn, roll a die. On a 3+ you may deploy a gun drone sqaud of 8 models on the left or right of the XV100 (the drone hatches are under the XV100's body).

Mutli-seeker missle launchers - A Interior bay of Seeker missiles with missile launching ports set on the top of the XV100. The Multi-Seeker missile Launcher counts as a normal seeker missile using the following profile (str 7, ap 4, Heavy 6) and is fired by the used of a markerlight. The missile bay holds 12 missiles at the start of the battle and will restock 1 added missile at the start of your turn (To the max of 12)

Plasma Shield Generator - A massive Plasma powered reactor and reflector generator is installed into the XV100. This grants the XV100 a Void shield.

Fusion Devestator - A fusion blaster, just on a much larger scale. This weapon basicly creates a mini-sun. Apon inpacting the ground, it will detonate with tremendous force and range. (72" range, str 8, ap 2)


And That's it for now, tell me what you all think (I know a few things need fixing, need some constructive input)

okay, I'm coming in on this late... and I really don't feel like backtracking 10 pages. in general does the thread think tau need fixing? if yes, what are the MAIN reasons people are stating.

*sigh*... lazy bugger...

yea, Tau do need fixing. I will give ya MANY reasons ^_^

- Tau gunline tactic is extremely unreliable in 5e
- Kroot get slaughtered before they can get their job done, they need I4
- Tau troops have extremely poor survivability, this doesn't help in 5e as assasult troops can run right up and kick the crap out of them
- Tau overall for a shooting based army are inacurrate
- Tau Hero units are pretty much gak. Space pope can't do anything but hover on the spot while farsight is gimped to hell with only able to take 1/2 of the tau army as 0-1. Shadowsun is ok, but a few tweaks here and their...
- Tau lack blast template weapons
- Tau fire warriors are overpriced
- Tau crisis suits JSJ tactic is pretty much gak now thanks to "true line of sight"
- Tau Stealth suits have slowed weapons for their job
- Vespid........ need i say more?
- Tau lack a "Real" Super-Heavy for apoc. We got a kroot super-heavy and several tau air units but no giant tank or walker?
- Deep Striking enemies pretty much destroy tau, hell a strong wind could most likely inflict alot of damage..
- Our Railguns don't do enough damage damn it!!!! RAWRARAWR1111111oneeleventyone11!!! XD

I Like the Tau, alot. In fact I have never, ever achieved more than a tie against them. Mayber the Tau players in my area are amazing gods of 40k but I doubt it. You make a couple of the classic arguments that are pure crap, and some good ones too. When they do "fix" Tau, I will probably cry with nerdrage, and so will you. F'ing GW.


++Quoted from superscope++
++yea, Tau do need fixing. I will give ya MANY reasons ^_^++

++- Tau gunline tactic is extremely unreliable in 5e++

Yeah, I'd agree that Tau as "gunline" isn't the strongest, but then neither is IG. They both shoot the crap out of their targets (at different ranges for the high yield killing) but neither has a decent BS. Tau really should have a 4, but I question weather it's a want or need. if fire warriors had bs4 they would cost as much as space marines and deservedly so. bs4 s5 30" rapid fire guns with a 4+ save?! no. not for under 14pts at the very lowest.

++- Kroot get slaughtered before they can get their job done, they need I4

I liove kroot. If they were I4 they would be nasty as hell. they pwn spess marines as is if they have a full squad. I know it's more spendy but you are paying for the utility to have cc (that can outflank, right?) in a shooty army.

++- Tau troops have extremely poor survivability, this doesn't help in 5e as assasult troops can run right up and kick the crap out of them++

Their troops SHOULD have poor surviveability in CC, they are shooters. you want marine saves or ws3? dedicated assault troops will always wipe out dedicated shooty troops. what tau NEED... I'll get to that at the end.

++ - Tau overall for a shooting based army are inacurrate++

I get outshot by good tau players, tau's strength is flexability not volume. The troops have 30" range and devilfish so they can GTFO when baddies get close.

++- Tau Hero units are pretty much gak. Space pope can't do anything but hover on the spot while farsight is gimped to hell with only able to take 1/2 of the tau army as 0-1. Shadowsun is ok, but a few tweaks here and their...++

Your heroes do suck! OMG

++- Tau lack blast template weapons++

You have the hammer-thing template. You are not IG. If tau had blast templates they would be an improved IG (3rd ed) in every way

++ - Tau fire warriors are overpriced++

Maybe a little, but they s5 guns, a 30" range and a 4+ save. Did you expect 8pts?

++- Tau crisis suits JSJ tactic is pretty much gak now thanks to "true line of sight"++

No, just no. They simply used to abuse the rules. Now THEY HAVE BEEN FIXED.

++- Tau Stealth suits have slowed weapons for their job++

Great drop troops for anti tank duties... not that tau need it. I will use stealth suits against guard players spamming LRBT's very soon. (I borrow tau armies alot, they are fun) they are good against non meq armies, right?

++ - Vespid........ need i say more?++

vespids... I have a friend (a tournament player and DAMN solid with tau) who swears by them against some army types. I dunno, their statline is gak and I don't know how to make em useful.

++- Tau lack a "Real" Super-Heavy for apoc. We got a kroot super-heavy and several tau air units but no giant tank or walker?

they do. but if you have the cash you have an excuse to buy a manta! If I owned tau I'd have the excuse

++- Deep Striking enemies pretty much destroy tau, hell a strong wind could most likely inflict alot of damage..

D/S foes are jerks. no real way around that. damn that Zagstruck! Damn those Vanguard Vets, too! just shoot em' when they leave CC, that's what I do... I usually short 3-400 points worth of tanks afterwards though.

++- Our Railguns don't do enough damage damn it!!!! RAWRARAWR1111111oneeleventyone11!!! XD

Agreed! they should have the melta property!


I think that tau need the ability to upgrade the weapons in their squads, and they need it badly. They could also use a good tarpit unit. that would buy them time to get in their fish and swim to another place to shoot from. aside from that we agree on the special dudes. I bet that vespids will be amazing in the next iteration of the tau book, but they aren't going to bump the BS and they aren't going to bump the CC much either. Maybe I'm off base because I can never beat tau with an all-comers list (they are my achilles heel) but I don't know any tau players who want the book to change. most of them are fearing a nerf hammer in my area.

@ Superscope,

I like your enthusiasm but will disagree on some of your Tau fixing analysis. If you don't mind, with the OPs permission, I'd like to open a debate on the strengths and weakness in hopes that we may find the areas that really need addressing with the Tau. If this becomes a problem I'll be happy to move the discussion to another thread.

I'd first like to give my responses to your thoughts on what needs fixing and then express why I think such.

Then I'd like your rebuttal, seeing things through others thoughts helps gain insight to the bigger picture.

So now I'll begin:

IMHO
1)I disagree about the gunlines. Yes gunline tactics are unreliable as are many other builds. I think the problem here is that the Tau were in concept never intended for a truly static fire base. They were intended to appear to be static as a means of a lure. Now this still works fairly well but I feel the fundamental problem is that the basic Tau infantry lack the mobility they need to fight their high-tech guerilla warfare. A large part of this problem came in the form of the 5th ed run and the coversave rules that effectively halved the shooting effectiveness of the basic fire warrior against basic troops.

2)I'm unsure with giving kroot I4. Kroot are mostly fine just as they are statswise. If they are getting slaughtered I usually find that they are not being used as designed. I don't care for this current tourny tactic of making them 10 man squads. They are meant to be a mini-horde and are most effective as such(Leadership/moral tests). It seems that a lot of poeple don't use the hounds because it breaks the 10 model unit tourny rule, or they don't shoot, or makes the squad have to large a footprint.
They are I5 S4 with 2 attacks without assaulting and only cost 6pts. Try running the unit at 17-20 models strong, 6-8 of them are hounds, use cover and look at what your opponent has in his army. If he has a bunch of flamers then use outflank if your going second(something I often opt to do), going first then infiltrate to support a pathfinder squad or something creative that doesn't just hand them to your opponent. When your squad comes under a shooting attack, put the wounds on the regular kroot first. In hand to hand the hounds normally go first, so take the wounds on them after they swing.

The fixes for the Kroot I would suggest are first a 1pt price drop and rudimentry charge grenade that would help them in HTH. Second, fix their fieldcraft rules by giving them USR move/shoot through cover. Third, for 21+ points the shaper better give them furious assault. The shapers lack of anything other that a +1 leadership bump is laughable.

3)I disagree about Tau survivability. The Tau had very good survivability before their guns were wimped out by the coversaves and the run rule. A 4+ armour save is still pretty good for the basic foot soldier. The real weakness here is the lack of variety and the lack of mobility for the Tau infantry. I've suggested before the idea of gundrones moving to troops to help these two issues. Any other help for the Tau basic infantry needs to come from the rest of the army. I can see and have had ideas about differnet things but really feel tha they are good as they are. Maybe a smallpoints shift, include grenades, weapons profile tweek that slows an enemy down, or upgrade special weapon drones as elective equipment. But nothing over the top, just refining.

4) I can see and agree with why you feel the way you do about the Tau Ballistic Skill. I just don't think it's going to improve until they stop trying to ram underpowered, overcosted, illogical markerlights as the defining theme for the Tau down our throats. Now if they fixed the underpowered and illogical, then refined the markerlight rules they'd be worth the points. The underpowered and illogical part is, "Why can only one squad see a marker light hit?". Refine the rules to where they have a LIMITED armywide effect for the marker counter expended, make all markers networked and I'd be happy to pay 15-20pts for each.

5)I agree about the Tau Special charcters. Yes, the Tau Special characters are very special in a little yellow bus kinda way. Thing is, it seems that the designers think a Tau superhero is kinda against the concept of the army. I think that if they are good enough to work their way up through the ranks, then their generals should be fairly nasty. I've proposed a few ideas before and will again if someone asks. I feel that the Tau will keep some existing leaders with improvements and will get an improved Ahngkor Prok for the kroot, A vespid special character, and I hope Aun'shi returns with some improvements.

6) I disagree about the Blast weapons. There aren't a lot of blast weapons in the Tau and it needs to stay that way unless everyone thinks they are the Imperium. This is not a big deal for the Tau. The Tau are about precise strikes as opposed to collateral damage. I see them with maybe a total of 3-4 blast weapons max, and that the markers remove a scatterdie or allow a reroll on blast weapons. Nothing more than that or you dilute the Flavor of the Tau. Now, I do see them getting higher rates of fire on a lot of their weapons.

7) I'm on the fence about the pricing. Fire warriors are ok for now in pricing. But with the way 5thed is going in order to keep up they'll probably give them photons and maybe the bonding knife for free. If they improve BS or weapon profile expect the basic Tau fire warrior to clock in at around 12pts each. Not a mathhammered number but feels right from play experience.

8)I completely disagree with your JSJ analysis. JSJ still rocks. You may just have to wait for true LOS blocking terrain in your area. I, honestly have to admit that my suits get shot up less now that they can park inside a building next to a wall and not worry about the area terrain cheese where a flamer shoots through a solid wall.
The problem I see with the crisis suits is unit size. Two suits can handle the same job that three do. This is good for leaving a smaller footprint for blast weapons but doesn't dish out enough meq killing firepower to make up for the Fire Warrior basic infaantries lack of organic fire support. I would suggest squads of 5 but who could afford it in their lists. I see the need for increased firepower per suit instead. I think drop the twin-linking, make the multitracker fire all weapons system, and making targeting arrays standard would probably do the trick.

9) I disagree about the Stealthsuit weapons but do agree about changing how the squads get armed. Stealthsuits, the burst cannon is ok but the optional fusion blaster has a problem as does the stealthfields visibility range. The unit would be worth it if they restructured the way the squad is loaded out or dropped the spotting distance. I really see the stealth teams dropping down to only 3 man squads but they each take an identical weapon. 3 burstcannons or 3 fusion blasters. I'd be a lot more likely to deepstrike or infiltrate those configurations. The current way of 5-6 stealths for 2 fusion blasters just costs to much. Would still be nice if the stealth field dropped to 2D6x2 spotting like the harlies with shadowseer.

10) Maybe there will be good news about the Vespids in the next codex. I was actually able to make the Vespids work in 4th ed. They weren't optimal but were ok. I've heard rumors about them either getting rending or a poison attack in hth in the next codex. That is only a rumour but would make them viable in 5th ed as long as the points don't go over 18-20.

11) The Tau do have a super heavy. Its called a tiger shark and can be equipped with Titan-killer heavy railguns. I wouldn't hold my breath for a superheavy walker as it just doesn't fit the Tau theme. Anything larger than a broadside is a skimmer or flyer in a Tau army(Not kroot). Not dicounting the Idea of new alien allies that might have a super-walker but just don't see the Tau getting one before......say the Orca dropship getts fitted with a twin railgun turret.

12) I agree about the amount of heavy weapons fire. I think if the broadsides go from twin-link to twinshot that would just about do the trick. I think making the Railgun on the hammerhead a Heavy2 or release a new hammermead with twin weapon mounts for the Ion cannon and Railgun would be nice. They will probably just give us Hammerhaed squadrons instead, though.


Now to recap the high points of what I feel needs reworking, updating, or what was missed.

A)Tau mobility has taken a hit and needs improvement. Especially in the troops area of the FOC. Also their should be no static infantry held heavy weapons. This is completely counter to Tau Tactical philosophy. The only exception to this might be the rail rifle if used as in an Ethereals bodyguard.

B)Tau fire power is about half of what it was. Looking at the trick they are using to up the IG (almost doubling)firepower. I feel the Tau are going to need an effective increase in firepower also. It just needs to happen in a Tau-like way.

C)Tau FOC is in need of restructuring to shift some units where they are needed most. Fast attacks and heavies have to much competition.

D)Markerlights are in desperate need of a rework. Just can't get enough lights in a list without crippling the army.

E)Tau vehicles need more weapon variants

F) The Tau need more history to help define their philosiphy and thus their heros and leaders. This will lead to more effective special charcters. Side note* Make the etherals honorblades +2 strength power weapons or give them a gun to shoot.



Please tell me what you, both, agree and disagree with and your Ideas of what should or probably will happen.

A while back on Warseer I ran some numbers and determined that BS4 fire warriors should be worth about as much as Ethereal bodyguards. Right now 10 points gets you half a hit. At BS4 x points will get you 2/3 hit.

x/(2/3) = 10/(1/2). 4x=30. x is a bit over 13. But that isn't the whole picture. That gives you the same firepower but doesn't help anything else. An equal costing of BS 4 13 point firewarriors dies faster than their BS3 counterpart. Plus some people say fire warriors are overcosted anyway. Drop a point down to 12. This slightly improves Tau firepower per point, but has a couple other interesting effects. First, it hurts the Tau in an attritional shooting match. Each casualty taken robs the Tau of 2/3 of a hit instead of 1/2 as before. Second, it allows the Tau to put more firepower inside a transport. Both are in my opinion in fitting with the Tau design philosophy. Tau are supposed to fail at attrition and do well at mobile shooting.

Speaking as a Guard player who hates the Tau.

stupid focusedfire, politely disagreeing! You know, you need to learn how to troll a Tau thread... J/k, kinda. not really. JERK. (Don't report me)

Yay @ focusedfire ^_^ Strong constructive talk. Lets go my reply

1) True. For some bizzare reason i always like a tau gunline. Perhaps the long guns of the fire warriors remind me of britsh redcoat gunlines in ages past...

2) I always like capping out a sqaud. Perhaps i need to give kroot another shot with some hounds... then again i'm not a lover of the kroot. The Kroot Sharper upgrade (giving furious charge to the unit) would be GREAT!

3) Yeap, your right about that, only 2 weapon choices for fire warriors. Their armor save and T is fine, it's just that most games i play i get blasted to peices buy crazy space marines with frag and krag missiles. I need to move more (Gotta hurry up and build my devilfish)

4) That would set tau up great. Markerlights are the way, if only they just fixed it up. I would be happy to take BS3 if i could field lots of markerlights at a cost effective price. Perhaps they should change markerlight rules to this:

Markerlight - 10 pts

Any enemy unit hit with a markerlight becomes marked.
- Infanty shooting at the marked unit may re-roll failed to hit rolls.
- Vehicles gain +1BS when shooting at the marked unit.
- A Blast weapon's scattered result is halfed, rounded up.

5)Totaly with ya. Personaly, i love the "Special issue" items that let you custom tailor your commander to suit your needs. Have i told you how much i love the failsafe detonator? While yes, i am quite frustrated with the Tau special charcters being utter junk. The tau is about everybody putting aside personal gains for a greater good.

6)Come to think of it, i have to agree with ya.... I've been reading too much of that IG codex fourm stuff ):

7)To make tau more different than other armies, getting a shas'ui in a fire warrior sqaud should grant the bonding knife, while if your sqaud is at least 1/2 armed with pluse carbines you should get grenades for free.

8) Hmmm... i need more cover in my games then... Now about crisis suits, Yeap, multitracker baseline sounds about right, and since that frees up the support slot for their gear they should be able to equip targeting arrays no problems.

9) 3 man stealth teams sound fine to me (Then i can field them for tank hunting duty XD)

10) That would be interesting

11) Ok, so basicly we have flying super-heavies... FUN

12) Yeap, twin-shot sounds right to me as well. Railguns are great but most of the time they suck hard fighting horde armies.

-----------------------

a) Hmmm.... A sqaud armed with railrifles with a attached etheral? *drools at the idea*

b) GW will most likely screw us over sadly.

c) Indeed it would. Pathfinders to troops and have dedicated transports like what space marines do with their rhinos (not taking a FOC slot) should fix fast attack slots. Heavy units will have a problem...

d) Yeap, they are WAY too costly for a static laserpointer (which in the year 40999, you think they would have a insane version of the laser pointers we use?)

e) YES!! Railheads are tired but true... Give us something new and unpredictable ^_^

f) Total support their. Helps bulk out the codex a ton. While i remember the 3rd editon codex had lots of really cool lore in it and yet the 4th editon codex they just cut like... 1/2 of it out... for no reason!

@Raxmei, Thank you for the mathhammered analysis. If you don't mind I'll be quoting your IG viewpoint to others.

@ Superscope, Thanks for the kind words. Nice to know that I have ideas others can relate to.

Now do me a favour and try to pick my suggestions, arguments, and ideas apart a little. Either what might not work, doesn't seem Tau-like, or if there are other things that are a higher priority as to updating/improving.


@Kungfu, Thanks for the laugh,kinda. No snitching here.
As to your analysis of the Tau there are some interesting ideas and I think talking about where we both agree and disagree might provide some useful ideas at least.


As to deep striking armies and how to handle. I've been really messing the marines up if they deep strike against me.

It does get them into the front lines quicker but at the cost of a solid rear defense and mobility. I usually find that by turn 3-4 the board is flip-flopped. I'm in his deployment zone and he's in mine. If there are objectives I put them out in the open so that they can be shot at while sitting on the objectives.

I find that SM players tend to charge towards the objective early and will drop pod on them to gain cover if the objectives are in the open. I use these tendencies against them.


About the railguns. Do you think that they need the D6 armour penning more or higher rates of fire?
Should it be both by making the tank mounted have the extra d6 penning and making the broadsides count as two railguns as opposed to twin-linked?

Do you agree with the restructured stealth units?
Make them 3 strong with either all carrying fusions or burstcannons.
I think at BS 4 (Built in targeting arrays) it would up the units effectiveness to where 3 burst cannons or fusion blasters would get the job done.
Or would you set the squad at 4 suits?

In your opinion, "What area is the Tau currently most in need of improvement?".

Superscope wrote:
'4) That would set tau up great. Markerlights are the way, if only they just fixed it up. I would be happy to take BS3 if i could field lots of markerlights at a cost effective price. Perhaps they should change markerlight rules to this:

Markerlight - 10 pts

Any enemy unit hit with a markerlight becomes marked.
- Infanty shooting at the marked unit may re-roll failed to hit rolls.
- Vehicles gain +1BS when shooting at the marked unit.
- A Blast weapon's scattered result is halfed, rounded up.'

This is the silliest thing I have read in a loooooong time, including rough riders w/o power weapons. Basically you are saying that if you shoot a squad with a markerlight it is going to die. no if's and's or but's.

@ Hustler, He was expanding on a general idea I had. My idea was not that it will auto-die but it should be close. At least by the fluff and how much having to buy them messes with fielding a playable army. It was my idea that a point and weapon rule redo is in order.

But please, instead of silly, explain your points on how it would be a problem so that the idea might be tweaked.

I'll give you my viewpoint as to markerlight changes I'd like to see and why.

It makes no sense that if a unit is marked and counters are used that only one unit gets the affect of those marker hits. It's not intuitive and slows the game down by not having a clearly stated firing order.
The effects were designed for 4th ed and are now in need of an update.

I was personally advocating a streamlining of the marker rules. Make them have more of a limited but broader effect.
Something like you can spend only 2 marker counters a round per ability and unit hit but the entire army recieves the benefit.

So a unit is hit 4 times then you can only pull the coversave down by 2 and fire 2 seekers at the unit per tank. Maybe only allow it to up BS to a max of 4 or spend 2 markerhits to allow reroll to hits.

These are just ideas and we would like constructive criticism. If you have a better or another system in mind the please post it for discussion.

focusedfire wrote:

I was personally advocating a streamlining of the marker rules. Make them have more of a limited but broader effect.
Something like you can spend only 2 marker counters a round per ability and unit hit but the entire army recieves the benefit.

So a unit is hit 4 times then you can only pull the coversave down by 2 and fire 2 seekers at the unit per tank. Maybe only allow it to up BS to a max of 4 or spend 2 markerhits to allow reroll to hits.

Sorry if I don't seem particularly onstructive, but that was just wet-dream wishlisty. One at a time here we go.

All infantry shooting a marked squad are now twin-linked? no. I don't think that making all infantry BS4 against it should be the fix either. How about:

'you may remove a marker light token to allow infantry and vehicle models shooting the marked squad to re-roll 1's to hit during the shooting phase.'

Basically a marker light could give the tau the sharpshooters rule for a turn. This would be a good way to expand the effect of a markerlight without overpowering it.

Vehicles shooting non-template weapons are covered by the 1st rule.

'Units firing blast templates BS is considered to be +1 for the purposes of determining scatter.'

focusedfire wrote:@Raxmei, Thank you for the mathhammered analysis. If you don't mind I'll be quoting your IG viewpoint to others.

Sure. To expand on my original statement, if you want to think in terms of discrete models ten 12-pt warriors would cost the same as twelve 10-pt warriors. They would get 2/3 of an extra hit at starting strength but start the game down 2 wounds in comparison.

From an attritional standpoint, 20/3 (number of hits at full strength) - 2x/3 (minus number of hits lost with each casualty x) = 12/2 -x/2. 40 - 4x = 36 - 3x. x = 40 - 36 = 4. The two squads have equivalent firepower after taking four casualties, leaving six men at BS4 or eight men at BS3. The BS3 squad gets better in comparison after that and is slightly less vulnerable to morale. As a result, BS4 firewarriors would have better initial firepower but fail more rapidly once they started taking losses. They'd also be worse in assault, being short two models with no matching increase in quality, but most people don't care about Tau assault.

With Devilfish, a full squad of 12 packs 8 hits inside the transport instead of 6 but costs 144 points instead of 120. If you use fish of fury that means more firepower per fish.


The big difference I see between the Tau and Guard firepower models is that the Tau have an even distribution of firepower. Each Tau contributes just as much to the squad as the next. The Guard is different, having a heavy weapons team and a bunch of guys with flashlights. The first few Guardmen killed have little effect on the squad's firepower in contrast to each fire warrior's loss nibbling away a little bit at the squad's firepower. Bumping the fire warrior up to BS4 with a proportionate increase in points would make this difference more pronounced. This is a weakness, which is why I put in a slight discount that sets the new cost at 12 instead of the 13 that the mathhammer would initially suggest.

There is no ****** way I'm paying 12 points for a Firewarrior when a battle sister is 11 points. ***** that.

Killing things has never been the firewarriors problem. Its living. Yes the gun is nice, but if a firewarrior had nothing more than a bolter the model would be expensive at 6 points. With crappy WS, S, I, LD, A, with no special rules to back them up.

You people are seriously focusing on the wrong thing. The BS of the firewarrior is not the problem. Its its point cost and over all survivability. You really think its ok to loose 100 points of anything to a single heavy flamer shot? That somehow thats balanced?

@ Kungfuhustler

So your saying that they are going to die regardless of enemy unit cover saves? Since pretty much EVERYTHING yeilds a +4 cover save shooting is quite hard to do.

--------------------------------
@ Focusfired

The primary weakness of the tau is of course, hand to hand. With pinning becoming less and less effective along with running rules the tau have less time to fire than what they could before. Mobility issuses also arise thanks to armies with running. Since tau can't run and shoot at the same time, they have to pick either mobility or shooting, both of which is needed.

The tau art of war dictactes 2 primary ways of doing things. Mont'ka and Kiyon. Mont'ka is the removal of a target with extreme force which greatly disrupts the enemy, while kiyon is using a lure to bring the enemy into a firing range, then blow them away. While both tactics are sound fluff wise, preforming the tactics in a actual game of 40K is quite hard. Mont'ka is pretty much pointless unless your fighting armies with dedicated units to set roles (Eldar come to mind here) and kiyon is very hard to use unless a. the enemy has little or no range firepower b. the enemy really hates one type of your units, mainly broadsides.

In summary, the tau lack critital mobility unless they sacrifice shooting to compensate, in which the tau can't afford not to shoot. Their ranged weapons fail to deviler enough power to stop enemies before they close in and break the tau like sticks.

One way to help the tau would be to give a few more units in the army list the Hit and Run USR

First up, Railguns.

Railguns are one of the strongest weapons of the tau armory, however they are still, like all the other tau weapons, highly effective and little waste. The railgun is already str 10 ap 1 72" range. That's fine, leave it there, it doesn't need rending or d6 extra armor pen on enemy tanks. The major problem is that you can field only so few of them unless you break your army's effectiveness (Mobility and point wise). Making the broadside's railgun 2 shots instead of twin-linked would fix that problem, but it would make the suits ever MORE of a tasty target.

The Hammerhead's Railgun however, is different from the broadside's one. Perhaps the Hammerhead should have a Seperate profile (Weapon wise) with it's railgun? The following 72" 10 str 1 ap heavy 2 sounds about right for it.

Next up, stealth units.

Stealth suits are great if they can get close to the enemy, which is problematic via just jet-packing forward. Groups of 6 seem to be a bit too... bulky in my sence. Teams of 3 with a option of adding a 4th one Shas'uve team leader sound good number wise.. so long that they have the options of their "bigger brother" crisis suits. In short.. yes, the ability to have the whole team go fusion blasters or burst cannons would improve flexability greatly. In that way, you now could field a stealth team as a anti-infanty or a anti-tank role.

The Shas'uve should also give the sqaud emp grenades for free.

Jayden63 wrote:There is no ****** way I'm paying 12 points for a Firewarrior when a battle sister is 11 points. ***** that.

Killing things has never been the firewarriors problem. Its living. Yes the gun is nice, but if a firewarrior had nothing more than a bolter the model would be expensive at 6 points. With crappy WS, S, I, LD, A, with no special rules to back them up.

You people are seriously focusing on the wrong thing. The BS of the firewarrior is not the problem. Its its point cost and over all survivability. You really think its ok to loose 100 points of anything to a single heavy flamer shot? That somehow thats balanced?

At least fire warriors get a ok armor save, that's fine. I'm just unsure of how to fix it i'm afraid. Many believe a point cost reduction, but that would just let people horde more fire warriors into a army to compensate, which the tau can NOT supply unlimited man-power like the IG so dropping the point cost would break the fluff...

That 12 point thing was intended to be power neutral in comparison to current fire warriors. The amount that they should actually cost could well be lower than that.

At any points cost the fire warrior at its current profile has issues. Tau are one of the armies where the troops are all too often perceived as deadweight at best and a liability at worst. To fix this you have to find something for them to be genuinely good at.

Throwing out a crazy idea, make the pulse rifle assault 1 and the pulse carbine assault 2.

Superscope wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:There is no ****** way I'm paying 12 points for a Firewarrior when a battle sister is 11 points. ***** that.

Killing things has never been the firewarriors problem. Its living. Yes the gun is nice, but if a firewarrior had nothing more than a bolter the model would be expensive at 6 points. With crappy WS, S, I, LD, A, with no special rules to back them up.

You people are seriously focusing on the wrong thing. The BS of the firewarrior is not the problem. Its its point cost and over all survivability. You really think its ok to loose 100 points of anything to a single heavy flamer shot? That somehow thats balanced?

At least fire warriors get a ok armor save, that's fine. I'm just unsure of how to fix it i'm afraid. Many believe a point cost reduction, but that would just let people horde more fire warriors into a army to compensate, which the tau can NOT supply unlimited man-power like the IG so dropping the point cost would break the fluff...

Screw the fluff. Or make them worth their points. Give etherials a special rule, like they used to. Re-roll any LD check, but remove the LOS restriction. Just knowing an etherial on the battlefield should be enough to motivate the Tau, who cares if he can actually see you.

Give them a re-roll on their armor/cover save. Call it PPS (personal protection shields). Now they are more suvivable, without having a fluff breaking 3+ armor save, and can actually stand to go Toe to toe in a firefight. Give them distuption grenades that say a unit with those cannot be wiped out from a sweeping advance, etc.

Come up with special rules or wargear that justifies their points cost if you feel the need to keep their points high, because clearly their stat-line doesn't.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Jayden63 wrote:Give them a re-roll on their armor/cover save. Call it PPS (personal protection shields). Now they are more suvivable, without having a fluff breaking 3+ armor save

Wow. Feel no pain for fire warriors. brilliant.

2x post

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Give them a re-roll on their armor/cover save. Call it PPS (personal protection shields). Now they are more suvivable, without having a fluff breaking 3+ armor save

Wow. Feel no pain for fire warriors. brilliant.

I didn't want to call if FNP because FNP is limited to 4+, PPS changes depending on which models it is issued to. PPS would be whatever the current save is rerolled, 3+ on crisis suits, 4+ on fire warriors, 5+ on vespids (if they wear tau armor). I'm not saying all models will have it, just an example. I'd personally hate to be across broadsides that have a re-rollable 2+ armor save 4+ re-rollable cover/inv save. Then again assault termies are pretty sick with their 2+/3+. However cover saves can still be anywhere between 3+ and 6+. Thats why I didn't call if FNP. It has a much broader range than just 4+

and it is in some cases more powerful. Swing! And a miss. If GW ever gave tau a variable FNP that increases when they go to ground and isn't ignored by ap2 (hell, even if it is) I would ragequit warhammer 40k. That is absolutely ludicris. 2x Shield drones on a broadside is good enough, don't you think?

It's just Fortune... that applies to the whole army without a psychic test and can be used on 2+ saves. Not saying it's inherently overpowered, but it would be a massive change that would require recosting everything in the codex.

The simplest, best solution for FW survivability is just a point drop and a couple options for close combat (free photons, free knife with a shas'ui.) guardsmen became 4 points, I fail to see why the same logic doesn't apply to fire warriors: I'd be able to field more of them (making gunlines better) and GW gets to sell more models, which they would like. Fluff is secondary to gameplay and model sales, period, and frankly, 8 point firewarriors? would that really be a big deal for a t3 model that can get gunned down in droves by a heavy bolter? and frankly, personal shields for firewarriors... would be better treated as a 6+ invul save. but I'd rather field more firewarriors than field dramatically better firewarriors: they can get absurdly expensive once you start adding in upgrades. I just to field want more of them without breaking my lists.

With GWs current trend in army building, I see the FW getting photon or maybe even EMP grenades for free. Then possibly targeters that raise their BS to 4. I see them at that point coming in at 12pts a model with the grenades as the main variable.

Making them cheaper is too much like what GW has been giving the horde armies, and the Tau aren't a horde army. I "could" see GW handing out 4+ invulnerable saves to the Fire Warriors like its candy at halloween, though.

I see them doing that and adding 4 points an infantry model. Thus taking the cost to GW default 16 pts for good S3 T3 units.

The only other thing I could think of them doing , instead of just the FW getting invulnerables, is to come up with a tech boost to their basic armor that gives T4.

This would actually make the Fire Warriors unique. Make it something they learned from studying the Vespids. The more I think about it I like it. Make the Fire warrios stats look like this:
WS2 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD7-8(?) Sv 4+
Cost 16 pts
Comes with: Pulse Rifle or Carbine and Photon Grenades
Pulse Rifle-Same profile
Carbine-Same shooting but improve the Grenade launchers effects*

Unit may purchase EMP grenades for 2 pts per model. One Fire Warrior may be upgrade to Shas'Ui for 10 pts.
Shas 'Ui come with a bonding knife and may purchase the following items:
Squad Shield generator-40pts(Gives the squad 4-5+inv save. I'm leaning towards 5+ because of shielding the whole unit and seems more balanced.)
MarkerLight**-20 pts(All markers are networked in next dex, hopefully)
Special weapons drones- Flamer drones for 15 pts/each, Fusion drones 20pts/each. Marker drones 20 pts/each. There can be no mixing of drone types.


* Grenade Launcher still causes pinning test with a successful wound but even if the test is passed or the unit is assumed to auto-pass it cuts the units following movement phase distance by 1"( or 1" per wound? Too much?)
I thought about an alternate blast mode but couldn't figure out how to do it without it becoming over powered.

** If Tau starting BS is 4, then drop the BS increasing ability of the markers.
If the Photon launchers work the way I suggest then drop the leadership modifiers, also.
Units may use marker hits to ignore Night fight rule and auto tartget a marked unit with out having to test.
Then make the Markers reduce cover by 1 pt for each hit and make the effects stack and army but to use the cover reducing marker hits Squads have to make a leadership test. For tanks to beneifit from cover reducing marker hits they may only move at combat speed and fire.
Seeker missile rules are exactly as they are now. Tanks move freely and markers fire the seekers remotely but if the tank moves over combat speed the seekers may not benefit from the cover reducing marker hits.

Edit spelling and for details on INv Sv idea.

Even with grenades, Firewarriors are over-pointed at 10 each. They have a great weapon, lousy durability. 12 Firewarriors in a Devilfish is great, move up, disembark, 24 S5, AP5 shots.

Making Firewarriors more 'survivable' in melee shouldn't happen. I don't want it to. Then they cost more points, and probably would still get run over by a half-decent melee unit.

Tau suffer because they have fragile troops with low leadership that are few in number. Fragile troops, few numbers, but good leadership? That works, that's basically Eldar aspects. Fragile, low leadership, big numbers? That works, that's orks. Low leadership, few numbers, but durable? That works, it's marines.

Tau need a Leadership boost. Whether's it is just a +1 Ld across the board, a re-roll (with or without ethereal - but I prefer without), or even just letting them rally below 50% - I don't care the form.

Tau aren't far off from being a top tier list. But, they're not quite there. They have too many things that don't work quite right. But the stuff that they do have is brutally powerful. Which is why they're too much of a match-up army right now. They destroy some armies, and get steam-rolled by others.

And I think a few other things just need sorted out.

Assign drones to the unit, not a specific controller. That way the drones stick around until the whole unit is gone (or they're gone) and don't disappear because you had so few Firewarriors, you had to allocate one to the team leader, and he fails and takes the drones with him.

Increase range of the fusion blaster, at least on the piranha.

Dietrich, I'm not sure if this is just a list of your thoughts or if some are in response to some of the things I proposed. I'm going to respond as if it is partially a response.

1)Tau Fire Warrior pointing isn't as terrible as many claim. They have wonderful weapons that just got nerfed by making cheap armor nothing units have a 4+ save and by reducing FW survivability by increasing the relative speed of most armies with the run rule.

When thinking of ways to update the Tau I've been trying to keep in mind the fundamental theme of the Tau.

Ever notice that the SoB are like if you mixed Eldar and SM, while the Tau are like SMs mixed with IG with anti-grav. The point I'm making is that the Tau are about Durable, Accurate, Fire power that has some mobility. It's not Sisters( a SM with Eldar S3 T3 but 3+ sv standard and Psyker/Faith abilities)
Not SMs (Everything in statline is 4 except 3+ sv3)
Not IG( Attrition warfare and low save cheap units)
Not Eldar(Fast army with some fire power, glass hammer)
Not Necron(Durable, accurate, tough, with high leadership)ect, ect..........................
you get the picture. Its important to update without making it another army. Example, The new IG has now the ability to be the IE(Imperial Eldar). There is now a way to build a very Eldar-esque IG. This is somewhat disconcerting and the current IG players are very resistant to the idea of building a list in this manner.

2) Giving the Tau Toughness 4 wouldn't really make them better in HtH just more durable. It would also help with shooting durability. But it was just an idea to make them more unique. Could just as easily make it a 4+ inv sv.

3)I kinda like the Tau leaderhip where it is. I'd rather just have the Etheral leadership ability with a little more punch(Firepower)
4)Tau are about sameness unless someone is deserving of better equipment through experience. I like leaving the Drones as something that the Team leader gets. Otherwise it just makes them into a better evrsion of the IG infantry squad. It helps keep them Tau.

5)Dude, I am so with you on the Pirahna thing


Tell me what you think, point for point.

1. Firewarriors were fine in Fourth. In fifth, they can't shoot as much and are worse in melee. They should go down. I'm not talking IG levels of 5 pts each, but 8 is probably reasonable. Figure 3 squads of 10 would give you an extra 60 points, which is not insubstantial.

2. T4 doesn't fit Tau.

3. I'm fine with Tau as Ld 7/8. But, that means they fail a lot of tests. It needs a boost, whether it's a free reroll, a free 'regroup below 50%', or just +1 Ld, it doesn't matter. Small units of fragile troops with low leadership don't stick around. At least one of those variables need a boost.

4. The problem is that you (at least with FWs) have a T3, 4+ save, 1W model with up to two drones. Just let them attach to the 'unit', even if the leader is a required upgrade to purchase them. Loosing one model shouldn't cause you to lose an extra two models. Even with suits, a couple bad rolls on the suit w/ DC and you're taking a lot away, both in points and effectiveness.

5. The piranha has a bizarre concurence of several rules that don't make them very good. Tau don't need the meltagun. With the railgun and markerlights taking off cover saves, you should do a number on heavy armor. The extra kill points for the Gun Drones, the short range (of either weapon), the relatively large footprint all contribute to make it sub-optimum. I know that Stelek brags about them, and they can work, but I don't think that Tau need them. Railguns and missile pods will mess up any mechanized list.

I don't think Tau are far off from being a great list. But, they have a number of little things which all serve to bring the whole army down a couple notches.

Just make Tau Ld 9/10 like all other armies.

Pulse rifle range = RF 15".
Markerlight = Networked, Assault 1, 36".

These would solve a lot of problems.

focusedfire wrote:
This would actually make the Fire Warriors unique. Make it something they learned from studying the Vespids. The more I think about it I like it. Make the Fire warrios stats look like this:
WS2 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD7-8(?) Sv 4+
Cost 16 pts
Comes with: Pulse Rifle or Carbine and Photon Grenades
Pulse Rifle-Same profile
Carbine-Same shooting but improve the Grenade launchers effects*

Unit may purchase EMP grenades for 2 pts per model. One Fire Warrior may be upgrade to Shas'Ui for 10 pts.
Shas 'Ui come with a bonding knife and may purchase the following items:
Squad Shield generator-40pts(Gives the squad 4-5+inv save. I'm leaning towards 5+ because of shielding the whole unit and seems more balanced.)
MarkerLight**-20 pts(All markers are networked in next dex, hopefully)
Special weapons drones- Flamer drones for 15 pts/each, Fusion drones 20pts/each. Marker drones 20 pts/each. There can be no mixing of drone types.

This is insane. You want 18 points for figure that drops at the mere sight of a heavy bolter (even at T) or heck, even enemy Kroot in CC.

Lets remove the fire warriors gun for just a moment and just look at stats.

Against IG which are now 4 points, the IG have +1 WS, +1 Init, -1 armor save.
Against orks which are now 6 points the orks have +2 WS, +1, attack, +1 T, -2 armor save, furious charge.

Is there anyone who could possibly see the current Fire Warrior stats as anything higher than 5 points. Add in 1-2 points for the S5 gun and you have something in the realm of 5-7 points as they are now. Substantial improvements would have to be made just to bring them back up to their current 10 point model. Lets not even get into the 16 points of the current SM.

Also when talking about survivability against shooting there are only three ways to go about it. 1 - Don't get hit, 2 - Don't get wounded, 3 - ignore the wounds. The obvious options are increased T (but still has no effect against S6+ or poisoned weapons (which currently there seems to be a lot of), or increase their save, with either a lower number or re-roll. However what about just not getting shot. What if all Tau had some sort of illusion fields. What about a rule that says regardless of weapon skill you can only hit the Tau on a 5+ due to holographic illusions or some other such thing.

I don't know, but for the Lonely firewarrior, if they are an elite soldier non-horde type of unit, then their abilities had better reflect their points cost. If they are going to cost as much as a battle sister or marine, they better hit just as hard and survive just as long (in all aspects). Unfortunatly because of the limited options in the game, some duplication of other race abilities may be required to fill in the points. I say this because 3-4 points per model of just air really blows.

I think any abilities we can get to slow down charging infantry would be neat, like the suggestion of pulse carbines slowing enemy movement. In DOW, the two ways Tau could avoid assaults to have more time for shooting were Kroot and the commander's trap ability; those were also neat because they weren't just automatic and overpowered, they actually required some good placement tactics.

What if like, pulse carbines could pin units even if they are Fearless. I've never seen it as causing pinning through fear of the pretty lights, they were just blinded and stunned.

Just drop the price.

Really the main problem with tau is that mechanically they need to be an MSU army but they can't do this on the table due to pts.

8pt fire warriors and a significant price drop on d-fish makes taking basic troops easier and lets you take more of them which opens up more tactics (plsu more models for gw, yay!).

I'd say chuck in photon grenades and bonding for free too since bonding is pretty necessary.

Improving the markerlights would go a long way to improving the army too, it makes the small amount of firepower tau can currently muster more accurate and thus more deadly. I feel markerlights should be emphasised becasue they're unique to tau, they're cool, they're fluffy and they encourage collaborative tactics which is the desired playing style.

Improving the range would be a good one. Making them all networked would be useful too if counter to the collaborative tactics idea. Assault I dislike since it makes them too easy to use and is unrealistic (yes, I know, it's the future) however I can see drones or suits with markerlights being able to use them as assault weapons (due to relentless). To try and focus on collaborative tactics though marker drones would not be available to fire warriors.

My thinking is that most markerlights would effectively be assault because they would be on drones -- even the drones attached to FW should be relentless.

Once you have a lot of drone-based lights around and pulse rifles range 15 for RF, there is no point in Pathfinders. By making the Pathfinder lights also assault you give them a reason to exist.

I want range RF pulse rifles because it helps a lot against assault, without lots of kludges. It's simple, unique to Tau, fits the 'uber-shooty' concept, can be done within the Codex (one line rule) and leaves them just as vulnerable to assault once the enemy gets into contact.

My idea is a standard squad of 10 FW inc a Shas'Ui with knife, and two marker drones. Most of the time the drones are just going to raise the squad's BS to 4, but the marker power of a number of squads can be combined to focus on one enemy.

Killkrazy, uping Tau RF range would help a ton! Every time i'm always 1-2" away from RF'ing into pesky space marines >.>

Hmmm..... the tau do need more drones i say, bring on the marker drone spam! XD

Jayden63 wrote:Against IG which are now 4 points

Guardsmen are 5 points, and you can't compare a guardsmen against a fire warrior in any way due to the armament of a guardsmen being a LASGUN. str3, ap/-, 24" rapid fire. Fire warrior pulse rifle is STR5 AP/5 30" RANGE RAPID FIRE. you have the best basic infantry gun in 40k, quit whining about the price of a guardsmen as there is NO comparison when you are talking about base point cost.

You could argue against the cost of a fully kitted out squad of guardsmen, which (soon) will cost 75pts with a Autocannon and a plasma gun. there is 10 t3 armour 5+ (wow, real effective against bolter fire isn't it?) wounds. 7 str3/ap- lasgun shots, 2 str7/ap4 shots and 1 str7/ap2 plasma gun shot @ 24'' range.
The lasguns hit 3.5 times, wound 1.xx times and the marine makes his save. the autocannon hits one time and wounds 5/6 times and the marine usually saves. the plasma gun hits 50% of the time and wounds 5/6 times. I will bump the 2 usually saves up to one unlikely kill, adding it to the palsma it's 2 dead marines.

The Tau squad gets 10 str5/ap5 shots and has armor 4+. they shoot and hit 5 times. they wound 3.3 times, killing one marine.

okay he tau and guardsmen have shot! The guard outshot the tau! go guard... wait, oh no! Marines are firing back!!!

the marines fire at the guard! Oh noes! they have 8 guys and hit 5 times! 3 ded guardsmen! aak! morale check! LD 8! cross your fingers!

The marines fire at the tau! the tau are hit 6 times! 4 wounds! 2 dead tau! no morale check.

okay, if the guardsmen get rapid fired they are pretty fragged and under 1/2. the tau can still take more beating.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Against IG which are now 4 points

Guardsmen are 5 points, and you can't compare a guardsmen against a fire warrior in any way due to the armament of a guardsmen being a LASGUN. str3, ap/-, 24" rapid fire. Fire warrior pulse rifle is STR5 AP/5 30" RANGE RAPID FIRE. you have the best basic infantry gun in 40k, quit whining about the price of a guardsmen as there is NO comparison when you are talking about base point cost.

You could argue against the cost of a fully kitted out squad of guardsmen, which (soon) will cost 75pts with a Autocannon and a plasma gun. there is 10 t3 armour 5+ (wow, real effective against bolter fire isn't it?) wounds. 7 str3/ap- lasgun shots, 2 str7/ap4 shots and 1 str7/ap2 plasma gun shot @ 24'' range.
The lasguns hit 3.5 times, wound 1.xx times and the marine makes his save. the autocannon hits one time and wounds 5/6 times and the marine usually saves. the plasma gun hits 50% of the time and wounds 5/6 times. I will bump the 2 usually saves up to one unlikely kill, adding it to the palsma it's 2 dead marines.

The Tau squad gets 10 str5/ap5 shots and has armor 4+. they shoot and hit 5 times. they wound 3.3 times, killing one marine.

okay he tau and guardsmen have shot! The guard outshot the tau! go guard... wait, oh no! Marines are firing back!!!

the marines fire at the guard! Oh noes! they have 8 guys and hit 5 times! 3 ded guardsmen! aak! morale check! LD 8! cross your fingers!

The marines fire at the tau! the tau are hit 6 times! 4 wounds! 2 dead tau! no morale check.

okay, if the guardsmen get rapid fired they are pretty fragged and under 1/2. the tau can still take more beating.

Don't forget that 10 Tau cost 100 points which is 33% more than the IG. They have lower morale, less firepower against vehicles, and (possibly, depending on armour) less capability in H2H.

Also, thanks to the amount of cover now in the game, the IG are quite likely to get a free 4+ save, while the Tau already have a 4+ save and get less benefit from cover.

In the new Guard codex coming out, guardsmen are 4 points (at least thats what someone told me.), but yeah the better example is the 75 point squad. But it proves my point even more, so thanks for the hint.

And Kilkrazy is right. 10 Tau at 100 points should do better than a 75 point unit. Except for the guard get that plasma gun and autocannon. Thats huge for taking down vehicles with front armor 11 or better (tau can only glance). To even out the points, your guard get 25 points of more friends to join in. For 150 points you get, two plasma guns, two autocannons and 14 Lasgun shots. All I get are 15 pulse rifle shots.

Not to mention HTH, the guardsmen (depending on whats assaulting them) can hold up a hell of a lot better than the Tau thanks to better I, WS, and LD.

I've been doing a lot of number crunching here, and I have to come to the following conclusion: Firewarriors are overpriced in 5th, but were ok in 4th. I am NOT trying to read the minds of designers, but rather, look at things from the new perspective of 5th ed, using guard and marines as an insight in how thinks ""ought" to work points-wise.

Basically, The idea is this: you take the most standard statline in the game, the normal imperial guardsman, (3 in everything, with ld7 and a 5+ save) and you use him as a baseline for comparing point costs. since this is 5th ed, he's 4 points, and we can use space marines (another 5th ed codex) a reasonable "up to date" comparison tool.

so, the marines has a +1 in 6 stat categories: they have the space marine statline (4 in everything but wounds and attacks) and ld 8. Assuming one point for each, that's 6 points up. he's now 10 points. but wait, the marines also has a 3+ save and his special rules (not to mention a bolter) unaccounted for. the bolter would likely be one point, as ap5 is not a big deal (except to guard, of course) and it's one point in strength higher than a lasgun. Then we have special rules: And they shall know no fear; combat tactics. I'm going to go on a limb and say these are 1 points. The remaining 4 points pay for the marine's 3+ save.

If you look at units from other codexes, this will make sense: a sisters of battle would there for have a base cost (re: guardman statline) for 4 points, a 3+ save for 4, and 1 point of leadership and a bolter for 1 points. (I assume sisters are leadership 8, but if I am wrong, inform me.)

Now, there are units that don't fit this: for instance SM scouts have a space marine statline (10 points for reason noted above), +2 for move though cover and infiltrate, +1 for a bolter... and now, you note, that you're already are 13 points, but you still have to account for their 4+ save (a definite improvement) and ATSKNF/combat tactics. Is it due to an oversight? because GW wants to sell more marines? I tend to lean towards the latter.

So let's get to the point: firewarriors are worse that guardsmen in 2 stats, WS and I. BUT, I will be generous and say this is only -1 point since a guardman-equiv model isn't going to win in close combat anyways. But their gun, the pulse rifle, is practically a one-shot heavy-bolter-equivalent. this is a bone of contention, point-wise, since HB's have wildly varying prices depending on who's fielding them (i.e SM troops get them for free, the elites field them for 5 points, the heavy support pay 15 for theirs, etc.) if we assume that heavy-bolter ought to be, on average, 10 points, then the pulse rifle (which pays for it's rapidfire by losing a point of AP) ought be about 3 points, rounded down.

so, now, the cost of a firewarrior is 6. Now his 4+ save. We don't have a good way to compare this in 5th, yet...

...but we do in 4th: carapace armor for imperial guard cam out to 2 points a model, which is borne though an analysis of their units: stormtroopers, minus the unless hellgun, were nearly identical to hardened veterans, except veterans got infiltrate and lacked a 4+ save. vets were 2 points less than stormtroopers. the point difference, 2 points, clearly went to a 4+ save, particularly since stormies had to pay EXTRA to infiltrate of deep strike.

so, we add two points to our firewarrior. he's now 8. If you went by 4th ed, his base cost would be 6 (guardsmen were 6); he'd add 3 for a gun, and 2 for armor, and subtract 1 for bad CC skills. he'd be 10 points. but, since the baseline cost of the "yardstick" unit went down, there is not reason firewarriors should be that expensive. they should go down in points to recognize this. As noted earlier (by myself and others) this would increase firewarrior sprue sales, make wiring mech armies lists more forgiving (due to lower costs) make gunline/hybrid tau less painful (due to more boots on the field) and generally be appropriate. I know some have said tau ought not to be a "horde army" but give me a break. you intend to make a horde with 8 point models that need outside support to deal with dedicated armor of any kind? Even orks can powerclaw stuff in close combat.

So, in short, firewarriors should be 8 points. it seems difficult to make an argument for "other factors" like heavy weapons of special rules because firewarriors lack any special rules, and their only "heavy weapon" is a markerlight which the unit it's self cannot really benefit from unless they shell out 3 times it's normal cost for it.

If anyone could find gaping holes in my logic, I would appreciate it, since I've been trying to figure out what I'm missing myself.

I feel that as they are right now, Firewarriors should be in the 7 point range. Due to the fact that increased range means little because of the run rule and closer starting positions, they still only rapid fire at 12 just like any other gun, and the 4+ cover save that is so easy to get. If you want to bring them back up to 10 they need a significant boost in staying power/killing power. This can be done through Army Specific special rules that every army out there seems to have except Tau.

I know people don't want them to be a horde army. I don't really want them to be a horde army either, but then they have to kill and not be killed as the higher point cost dictated. Seriously, as of right now, much of the Tau codex is over priced. Our Hammerheads and Defish are over priced by 30-50 points because being a skimmer means squat compared to what it used to mean in 4th. Our stealth suits are over priced by about 8 points due to range and low T issues. Kroot are ok, but really need the fleet special rule as well. Vespids are overpriced by about 4 points. The list goes on. 5th ed really did take a toll on the Tau because we use range to our advantage, now range is reduced and thanks to the table wide 4+ cover save that is so easy to get at range, even our few low AP guns don't do as much as they used to.

To make Tau competitive again, we need to either field more models for the same points, or make our same models do more.

Jayden63 wrote:This is insane. You want 18 points for figure that drops at the mere sight of a heavy bolter (even at T) or heck, even enemy Kroot in CC.

Use cover and don't put your FW in HtH.

It was 16pt and that was working from the idea that Markers move to having an armywide effect instead of a unit to unit effect. Now, at the 18pt, you get the emps. Nice thing to have against drop pod dreadnought. Pricing is comparable when compared to current FW and what you get. Lets look at the current vs proposed.

Current: you want BS4 you pay 12pts for etherial bodygaurd, next photons add a pt a model and make the tau more survivable in HtH by removing 1 attack from each charging model. Emp is another 3 pts and allows a chance against tanks. How many normal infantry units can take down a Land Raider or Monolith in a single turn?

At this point we are already at 16pts. You really think 2 more points for T4 and free bonding knife is to much?

Not when you look at the other improvements that we were discussing for the Tau.

Proposed: Any Tau squad may benefit from an expended marker hit effect. You use 2 pts to drop cover then every unit firing at that unit fires benefitting from the cover save reduction. Its not that big of a deal agains MEQs but against swarms and hordes its a good thing.

Would now get BS4 from improved targeting in weapons.
Photons would be now included.
Bonding knife included in cost of shas'ui(5pt savings). Shas'ui 10 points was suggested. How about he comes included? These are just ideas.
T4 would increase survivability by 16-17%. If they are firing Heavy bolters at your FW and not your suits then its about worth the point right there.
Squad would have option to get Inv save
Ability to get networked markerlights at much reduced costs.
Would now be able to get special weapon drones.(Pricing on them was just ballpark figure, I originally intended to set the price at 10-12 pts for the fusions and flamers)

Jayden63 wrote:Is there anyone who could possibly see the current Fire Warrior stats as anything higher than 5 points. Add in 1-2 points for the S5 gun and you have something in the realm of 5-7 points as they are now. Substantial improvements would have to be made just to bring them back up to their current 10 point model. Lets not even get into the 16 points of the current SM.

Yes, I could. Fire warriors are in a tough situation. they are about a .5-1 point over right now. You say they should be 7 points, Milque says 8pts and I say 9 pts.. When I throw out a number I am considering other improvements that will help keep the army Tau-like as oppossed to IG-like.

I feel that it's not that their pricing is so bad. Its that the new BRB changed the game so much that there is no way for a simply adjust by points change to work. Drop points then we have IG-Tau with hordes of infantry.

Try to adjust in other ways and you run into similar problems. FNP would make us Necron-Tau, especially if you increase weapon strength. Up the Armour save then we get SoB-Tau or SM-Tau. Up the speed and we have Eldar-Tau. Do anything to improve HtH and the Tau stand up to cheap horde units in cc. Raising weapons strength unbalances the army internally and externally. Increasing the rate of fire is one possible way but instead of just throwing more shots at it I was suggesting making a Tau-like advancement in technology.

Jayden63 wrote:Also when talking about survivability against shooting there are only three ways to go about it. 1 - Don't get hit, 2 - Don't get wounded, 3 - ignore the wounds. The obvious options are increased T (but still has no effect against S6+ or poisoned weapons (which currently there seems to be a lot of), or increase their save, with either a lower number or re-roll. However what about just not getting shot. What if all Tau had some sort of illusion fields. What about a rule that says regardless of weapon skill you can only hit the Tau on a 5+ due to holographic illusions or some other such thing.

All but the last I covered just above(Didn't want to cut up your paragraphs).

As to the stealing the Eldar harlequin holo-invulnerable for the Tau. The Tau already draw enough criticism for being to close to eldar. I'm happy with looking like distant relative to the Eldar as opposed tofirst cousins or being nieces and nephews to the Eldar.

Jayden63 wrote:I don't know, but for the Lonely firewarrior, if they are an elite soldier non-horde type of unit, then their abilities had better reflect their points cost. If they are going to cost as much as a battle sister or marine, they better hit just as hard and survive just as long (in all aspects). Unfortunatly because of the limited options in the game, some duplication of other race abilities may be required to fill in the points. I say this because 3-4 points per model of just air really blows.

I think the Fire Warriors abilities would reflect such if improved in the manner I proposed. Maybe a one or 2 point tweek here or there but not much other than that.


Edit for spelling

There is a lot of sense in what you are saying, though I don't think many players will agree with the idea of a massive upgrade and point cost increase.

I still prefer my idea. Keep the cost about the same but add a few free upgrades especially RF range of 15 inches for the pulse rifle. That by itself helps against assaulters and lets FW use mobility for attack as well as defence.

Killkrazy,Thank you for the kind word on my ideas.

I also, like your idea of increasing the rapid fire range. It would definitely help some. But don't know if it would be enough.

The IG codex is looking to prove what we've been saying about needing to almost double the shooting effectiveness in order to restore balance.

I feel it can be done by either increasing rate of fire, reworking markerlight rules to armywide benefits, standard BS4, or some combination of these.

This would be a good starting point but not enough and while helping with FW survivability there would still need to be a few tweeks, IMHO.


The rest is just attempting to guess which models GW will/might introduce or are going to push.(Sorry if my cynicism is showing.)


Edit 2 unecessary words

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:
This is true, but to take the measure of a Tau army, you must do so in it's entirety. A IG Infantry Platoon, and a Tau FW squad by themselves are not meant to be gamebreaking units. Few in 40k are IMHO. But by adding lascannons, autocannons, plasma, etc. to a Guard Platoon, you can make them much more useful in a variety of situations.

The Tau complement this with Seeker Missiles, Crisis suits (more mobile than any Guard unit will ever be), Broadsides/Hammerheads, and Stealth teams. The combined arms tactics are key to playing a Tau army, and taking a glance at just the FW will not show you much. Sure, I think they could use some reworking, especially in higher Ld. (what Greater Good zealot would run at the first sign of trouble....really??), but comparing Tau to Guard is like comparing a Whiteshield Platoon (and their tactics) those those of a squad of Ultramarines (and their tactics).

Ahh the Tau seeker missile. A weapon so nice, you have to roll to hit... twice. (rolls eyes)

When I look at the Tau firewarrior, I see them as the linch pin of the army. Basically because 1 - your required to take one. 2 - They are only one of two scoring units in the army list (something needed to win 2/3 of all games you play.) 3 - in the other 1/3 of all games, they give up stupidly easy KPs if your not hiding them in a D-fish.

These issues must be addressed if the Tau have any chance of being competitive. Also, this is going to sound harsh, but any "fluff" arguements just don't mean squat. You use fluff to choose what army to play. But when the dice get rolling the only thing that matters are stats, and rules. The T4 doesn't care that if comes from metal skin, or regenerative effects. All it cares about is that you need to roll a 4+ when rolling to wound against another St 4 weapon. So while some out there might happily loose every game they play, but are content with the fact that they held to the fluff. The rest of us would like to win every now and then, it helps make the game just that much more fun.

Once you hammer out how to keep scoring units on objectives and limit the number of KPs, all the while doing to opposite to your opponent, then you can make all the fluff arguments you want as to why it is so.

I personally wouldn't care if fire warriors didn't kill a single thing all game if at the end of turn three I have a fire warrior squad on an objective, it will still be there at the end of the game.

Fluff doesn't equal rules, but the army you field should be reflective of the fluff. That's why IG field platoons of 10-man squads, Orks units up to 30 strong, etc. Marines are supposed to be super-human and a squad can hold off a hundred men - well, that's not as well represented, but they're clearly better. So, fluff needs to be somewhat reflective, but not necessarily exact for game balance.

What's the iconic image of Tau? The Crisis Suit! Wait, no, it's supposed to be the Fire Warrior. Fire Warriors aren't supposed to be super-elite troops, they're the line infantry of the Tau Empire. Armies of Fire Warriors should be a common sight and competitive, right now, they're not.

I'd say 8 points is about right for Tau, but I wouldn't argue at 7. I would argue at 9. And I'd say that defensive grenades should be free too - not that they help that much.

The boost that FWs need is in durability, and the best way to get that some sort of Leadership boost. And even then, I don't see them being more than 8 points each.

Tau should still crumble in melee. They should maybe hold up against a couple Orks. Maybe. Which again, makes me think the 'fix' to Firewarriors is a leadership boost.

One of the problems with Tau is that they are on an end of the bell curve, just like IG. It means that in a game with an open board, they'll have an easy time and crush an 'equal' force. Where on a cluttered board, or even against certain match-ups, they'll get wiped off the board. That's always going to be a problem with an army that is far out on the 'shooty' or 'melee' end of the curve. Armies in the middle have an easier all-around time, but a harder time getting a decisive victory.

Here's some other random thoughts.

Increase Crisis Suit teams to 3-5 models.
Get rid of the mandatory selections (Commander, Fire Warriors).
If you field a Commander, one Crisis Suit team can be taken as a Troops selection (maybe let Farsight have 2 units be troops).
Get rid of the Crisis Suit Bodyguards.
Add Human Auxilia to the army list.
Give Stealth Suits T4 or W2 or both. Right now, they're way too fragile, especially since they compete with Crisis Suits for the Elite Slots. Maybe even make them Pathfinders.
Put a few more Kroot units into the codex - even just one Elite, one FA, and one HS. Then add a Kroot Shaper HQ (even if it's just a unique character), and you could field an all-Kroot army - the return of Kroot Mercs! Even if they only had one choice in each FOC, it'd bring them back. And I think they'd be popular.

Increase Crisis Suit teams to 3-5 models.

So your saying that people should be force to by 3 crisis suits before they could field them? Not to metion that beyond 3 units the group would be fighting for what ever cover is around.

Get rid of the mandatory selections (Commander, Fire Warriors).

They ain't mandatory selections, the FOC with the tau codex state 1 HQ and 2 Troop choices.

If you field a Commander, one Crisis Suit team can be taken as a Troops selection (maybe let Farsight have 2 units be troops).

If people could take crisis teams as troop choices then why the hell would they take anything else? Personal i would love a huge suit army but point wise it's totally unfeasable. Perhaps if you take a XV8 commander you could let your crisis suits count as troops? That would ease the tau troop survivablity somewhat.

Get rid of the Crisis Suit Bodyguards.

Why? They are not mandatory AND they can take wargear upgrades like the commander. Removing them would just hurt the tau more than fix it.

Add Human Auxilia to the army list.

Stats of the human auxila and FOC position please ;3

Give Stealth Suits T4 or W2 or both. Right now, they're way too fragile, especially since they compete with Crisis Suits for the Elite Slots. Maybe even make them Pathfinders.

It's not the fact that stealth suits are fragile. It's the fact that the stealth system they use is totally broken. I recommend the stealth formula to become 2d6x2 instead of 2d6x3. That means that they would be able to get into firing range with a chance before getting blow away from rapid firing space marines (or insert your poision here)

Put a few more Kroot units into the codex - even just one Elite, one FA, and one HS. Then add a Kroot Shaper HQ (even if it's just a unique character), and you could field an all-Kroot army - the return of Kroot Mercs! Even if they only had one choice in each FOC, it'd bring them back. And I think they'd be popular.

You have a troop choice and 2 attachments (in 3e codex they were a FA choice and a HS choice). I like having a Kroot Sharper HQ however, brings new ideas to the table (like giving the troop sqaud he's attached to free upgrades or soemthing) mainly because the HQs we got are either another crisis suit or a etheral (in which he just stands with a sqaud, acting like a idiot)

I have an idea for a new drone because i like FocusedFire's input on the Tau relying on drones. How about a bodyguard Drone that attacks in CC? Anyone who has played Half-Life 2 and seen the man-hacks will know what I'm talking about. A drone with no guns but spinning blades that viciously attack enemies engaging their protectorate.

15pts/each.
WS4,BS0,S X T X I4 A2 LDx SvX
Blades act as power weapons
X=As protectorate. Mix this with the retro thrusters and you would have a nasty deterrent. What you guys think?

Blanket fix for the Marker Lights of some sort (i.e. simplify usage and make easier to use as army support)

A full Fire warrior team feels right at 100 points (12 FW with sarge w/knife, marker gunner with light), get the Devilfish down to 50 and you have a nice scoring unit at 150 points.

Ditch mandatory selections (as is standard for 5th edition).

More flexibility in stealth suit armament.

Some sort of deep strike or outflank denial along the lines of the Landspeeder Storm or Inquisition mystic.

Some sort of better anti heavy infantry weapon (I vote making the ion cannon blast and making it available to another unit).

Jack

< Taken by the void dragon. >

My first Idea for the Tau was called the "Great Leap Forward"..

A massive improvement of Technology for the Tau:

Targeters are built in: All Tau (except Kroot or Vespids) gain BS4 default. Targeters are no longer a wargear.
Emergency Countermeasures: All Tau gain a +2 for initiative when being subject to a sweeping advance.

Weapons are improved greatly due to advancements:

Pulse Rifle: 30" Heavy 2 or 12" Rapid Fire (Two modes. One heavy setting and a mobile setting)
Pulse Carbine: 18" Assault 2, Pinning
Plasma Rifle: 24" Assault 2
Burst Cannon: 18" Assault 4 (Looks like a minigun. All other minigun-like weapons in 40K are at least 4 shots)
MisslePod: AP 3 (Improved Warhead)
Fusion Blaster: Str 9 (To differ from Meltaguns and since it is being fired from units with access to a great power supply)
Ion Cannon: Str 8
Pathfinder Markerlights: 18" Assault 2 (Since they are meant to me Mobile. Regular markerlights stay the same)
SMS: 24" Assault 2 Blast (Ignore cover)
Seeker Missile: AP 2 (Improved Warhead). Always counts as hitting the Top (Side) armour. Four Max per vehicle. SkyRay holds 8 max and produces 2 per turn)
Shield Drones: One gives the unit a 5+ Inv save versus shooting. Each additional one adds +1 to save. Max of +2.

Unit Changes:
Firewarriors: Pulse Rifles and Defense Grenades. May exchange Rifles for Carbines. May add two drones (shield, railgun, gun, or marker) .
Broadsides are T5 and have A.S.S. built in.

Such changes would make Tau a supreme shooty elite army. I think to make a shooty army work in 5th, it need to be totally over the top. The new IG will be armor and infantry spam: Tau will be extremely good at mass Str 5 shots.

Jayden63 wrote:In the new Guard codex coming out, guardsmen are 4 points (at least thats what someone told me.), but yeah the better example is the 75 point squad. But it proves my point even more, so thanks for the hint.

And Kilkrazy is right. 10 Tau at 100 points should do better than a 75 point unit. Except for the guard get that plasma gun and autocannon. Thats huge for taking down vehicles with front armor 11 or better (tau can only glance). To even out the points, your guard get 25 points of more friends to join in. For 150 points you get, two plasma guns, two autocannons and 14 Lasgun shots. All I get are 15 pulse rifle shots.

Not to mention HTH, the guardsmen (depending on whats assaulting them) can hold up a hell of a lot better than the Tau thanks to better I, WS, and LD.

Yeah FW's suck. I still seem to generate more wounds with them by far though, and more wounds = luckhammer can yield greater results for me. I figure I could throw in the fact that for another 20 pts the guardsmen have a 4+ save as well.
In hth all guardsmen beat is tau though.

A 5/4 assault 1 pulse rifle is an idea, with 3 markerlights making it assault 2. Would that fix em' for anyone? sure, it makes markerlights mandtory, but it's a reason to take the imaginary new deepstriking marker drone squads!

*EDIT* regarding the poster above me and his idea to make a 24" assault 2 plasma rifle. ICKY! NO NO NO! KEEP IT AWAY!!! NOT FAIR! AKKKK!!!!!

Beautiful post eaten by computer gods. Curse them I will go again.

There are some really cool ideas and some things the need to be clarified, IMO.

@Jayden- We may disagree on somethings but I'm right there with you on the Seekers. If you have to fire twice then there should be a cover reduction. Complete removal of cover would be to much.
As to the fluff. Fluff represents the underlying philosophy of an army and is the guide for the designers to write the rules by. If you ignore this philosophy then every army becomes the same ol' SM stuff. I chose Tau because I don't want to play SMs.

@Che-Vito- I agree with a lot of things that you have to say. There is something you said about the seekers that needs to be clarified, though. Seekers do not ignore cover. God, how I wish they did or at least reduced cover by 1 or 2pts.

@Superscope-The Tau Crisis Commander is The 1+ HQ choice for the army. Fire Warriors are also 1+ as a troop choice. I found this out when I was trying to do a zero crisis all mechanized list. A very knowledgable dakkite pointed it out to me, for which I am thankful. He saved me from embarassing myself.

@deitrich-We may disagree slightly on the points for the FireWarriors, but I like some of your ideas.
First, I'd like to complement you on your Bell-curve analysis/description. It gets the point across very nicely. Now to agreements and disagreements with your ideas.

Leadership, I wouldn't argue with a bump but am fine with the pretty much 8 across the board. The Etheral does a good job of being nice pacifistic emo-commisar once you figure out how to use him and keep him alive. I wouldn't mind a bumping up of the bonding knifes abilities, though if it meant freeing the Ethereal up to have more of an offensive capability.

Disagree with mandatory 3 crisis suits for reasons stated by others.
Agree with losing mandatory Crisis commander but feel there should always be some Tau "Overseers" at every battle to keep a hint of darkness around the edges of all of their White Knight goodness.
Disagree with losing the Bodyguards
Agree with adding human Auxilla to list in some limited way
Agree with T4 because I was arguing for it army wide except drones and kroot. Disagree with 2 wounds. Would rather see an improvement in the Stealthfeild tech. and/or weapons with ranges better suited to match the stealfields area of protective effect.
Not a full Kroot merc list but, "How about if they brought back Angkor Prok?". Have him as a Special character that allows for mastershapers with better evolutionary tweeks and some minor increased variety of weapons to go along with each evolutionary adaptation.

Tell me what you think.

@8TidbiT8- Like the drone idea in theory but feel like a tweek mis in order to keep it more in keeping with the Tau.

How about Fail-safe shield Drones. When ever a Fail-Safe shield drone is destroyed in HtH it delivers a confined blast, via shaped charge, to the enemy. This blast is represent as two auto-hit S3-S4? powerweapon hits, roll to wound as normal.

What do you think?

@Adeptsister-Like the idea of the Tech leap. I proposed something much like it somewhere far upthread and in others as well. I like a lot of what you propose but would like to put my spin on them. Hope you don't mind.

Absolutely agree with built-in targeting arrays, Have been pushing for them for a while now. Matter of fact ever since Casper pointed out the obvious thing that I'd missed.

Instead of the emergency measures. How about avoiding HtH for a little longer. (It really cheeses me that the SMs got this rule first.)
The Tau unit can voluntarily fallback(Fail morale) if it has to make a leadership test from shooting casualties. Bonding knives allow you to reroll regrouping and still allows to regroup even if under half strength.

Like the pulse rifle switched fire mode. I had been pushing for Rapid fire 2 but that doubled the rate of fire even in close range. Your idea seems to be more balanced.
Carbines, I like and have suggested earlier in the thread. Only backed off of the increased rate of fire when proposing the armywide bonuses from markers. It seemed a simpler fix than redoing all the weapon stats.

Plasma is just dandy as it is. What I suggested was removing twin-linking from the crisis suits. Instead if there are two weapons then they fire as 2weapons. This ups the firepower of all non-stealth crisis suits. Broadsides would each now fire 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked. Same if you took 2 plasmas or 2 meltas. Railguns on vehicles would move to a Heavy 2 profile to keep them viable vs broadsisides and the improved ion cannons I'll mention later.

Burst cannon sounds good but the vehicles(Devilfish) should get the Forge world long-barreled burst cannon: Range 36" S6 AP4 Heavy4 Having a hard time deciding if these should get rending or the Ion weapons should.

MissilePods and Sms should get combined into a select fire weapon with these stats:
LOS Shot Range 36" S7 AP4 Assault(or heavy?)2, Ignores cover
Smart missleRange 24" S5 AP5 Assault(or heavy?)2, Re-rollable blast, no LOS needed
These systems would be represented on the crisis suit by using 2 of the current miss pods but would count as one weapon system.
On Tanks and Broadsides the rate of fire would be doubled to Assault/Heavy 4 for the Range 36 LOS and Assault/Heavy4 re-rollable blast for the range 24" smart missile system

Fusions are perfectly good as is. The suits are powering other things, also. So yeah leave them as is. Now a Fusion Cannon with Range 24" S8 AP1, melta would be nice for the Pirahnas.

Ion cannon, Yes S8. Have been proposing this for the Ion family of weapons:
Ion Cannon Range 48" S8 AP3 Heavy 3, rending
Cyclic Ion Blaster Range 24" S4 AP4 Assault 4, rending

Your Pathfinder markerlight idea is very interesting. I don't see GW taking that route but I guarantee you that I'll be meta-gaming the possibilities for a while.

Seeker Missiles- I like the AP improvement. Would rather they reduce cover by 1 or 2 than the side armour thing. If you play Tau you should know how to manuver for a side shot. 2 misslies per vehicle is enough and Skyray with 6 but reloads 2 per turn would be a good compromise on your idea.

Drones, cool concept but feels a little off. I can't figure it out but its very close to being about perfect. I think limiting to a 4+ max would be about right and the extra drones are padding to keep you at 4+ inv. Leaves room for other drones like the failsafe one I thought of.

Fire Warriors I think you meant rail rifle drones. I'd rather they went to the crisis units and that the Tau gain the Fusion and Flamer drones for the FW squads

Yes to standardized A.S.S., No to T5 Broadsides, T5 would make them too good. I want them to still be scared of S8 and up weapons.


I mentioned the Hammerhead rail guns earlier and I'd like to give a new idea now as to their possible stats.

Heavy Railgun Range 84" S10 AP1 Heavy 2, ignores invulnerable saves if both shots wound, If both shot pen Superheavy armor the they count as destroyer weapon hits

What do you guys think?

Flechette drones.

Attached to FW squad or Crisis team. Shoots flechettes at any attacking figure which must take a saving throw as per the vehicle wargear rules.

focusedfire wrote:The Etheral does a good job of being nice pacifistic emo-commisar once you figure out how to use him and keep him alive.

But, that's forcing you to take an ethereal as a second HQ choice. I think his abilities are great, but it's a forced HQ choice (and you have to use your other one on the Commander) to get them. Without him, FWs are not durable because they're too easily broken and run off the board. So, I'd like to see his abilities just become 'army wide' in some fashion. And/or get rid of the 1+ commander requirement.

Disagree with mandatory 3 crisis suits for reasons stated by others.
Disagree with losing the Bodyguards

If the upper limit of a unit increases, the lower limit should (and will) go up too. Now, I guess you could compare Suits to Oblits since they both have a 1-3 model count. I forgot that there was another unit out there with the same size (and SM attack bike squadrons too, and maybe others). So, I could see them staying as 1-3 models. The bodyguards don't add much, they're 10 points more, but the stat increases aren't significant. I don't see why you need a Bodyguard entry and a regular suit entry. Yes, the bodyguard can take special issue gear, but the wargear list will be gone next codex. I don't think the bodyguards add much. Maybe they stay as a 'command squad' type unit, but I don't think it's necessary.

Agree with T4 because I was arguing for it army wide except drones and kroot. Disagree with 2 wounds. Would rather see an improvement in the Stealthfeild tech. and/or weapons with ranges better suited to match the stealfields area of protective effect.

With JSJ, the burst cannon isn't horrible. You can't give them something with a 24 inch + range, since they could easily stay at the extreme end of the range and be untargetable by most units due to the nightfight rules. I think they need a little bump in the 'close-in' durability. Right now, T3, W1, and 3+ save just means they drop to bolter fire in a hurry.

Not a full Kroot merc list but, "How about if they brought back Angkor Prok?". Have him as a Special character that allows for mastershapers with better evolutionary tweeks and some minor increased variety of weapons to go along with each evolutionary adaptation.

I don't want a full Kroot list. But, I think it would add a lot to the codex if you could take a kroot-only list. Special character HQ would be fine. But, I'd rather see specific units already developed than some, "Prok can upgrade up to 3 units of Kroot to have wings for +X points per model, which makes them count as jump infantry and become a FA choice."

The Tau unit can voluntarily fallback(Fail morale) if it has to make a leadership test from shooting casualties. Bonding knives allow you to reroll regrouping and still allows to regroup even if under half strength.

I'd be fine with this, but I think it's more 'elite level' than what the humble FW is supposed to be.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

@Che- sorry but check again. Right over the Crisis Commander section it says 1+.


@dietrich-
1) Forcing you to buy a commander to get specific abilities is the wave of the future in 5th ed. Plus, What other commanders are there? We may get more variety in the next book but don't really have them now.

I get the feeling that the Tau will be the exception and that there will always be a Crisis commander requirement because of the Fire Caste Rank progression track. I do see the possibility of future Broadside and Stealth Commanders with unique abilities.

2)I disagree with increasing the Crisis unit size for the following reasons.
A)The unit doesn't need to get bigger, just better. This is why I want to drop the twin-linking on the crisis suits. It will effectively double their double their offensive ability in a given weapon and be more tau like in the use of a specific weapon for a specific job.
B)Tau fluff doesn't support the concept of that many Crisis suits. First they are a small race. Second the rank progression of the Fire caste doesn't support it. Crisis suits are actually a little too common as it is.
C) To big of a footprint and cost unbalances the army.

3)I disagree about the Crisis Bodyguards for the reason that wargear hasn't really gone away. Just the big list with the name has. There are still wargear options in every army, they are just listed in the unit entry as opposed to a big list.
To me this is even more of a reason to keep the body guards. A unit of suits with increased stats, abilities and weapon options to accompany the commander.

4)As to StealthSuits, The stealth field is supposed to make them hard to kill. A 24" range weapon puts them at 30" before your opponent moves. With a 6" move heavy bolters can currently target them about 42% of the time. Increase this movement to a fast vehicle like the new hellhound(Everybody is getting faster, even the IG) and it goes to about 58% average ability to spot. This is before any acute senses or night fighting ability or special equipment.

Now go back to the 18" guns and it goes to a 58-74% chance of spotting before any special abilities or wargear are added. Those aren't good odds. I feel that the stealth suits should grant an almost 50% rate of protection from being spotted and should force your opponent to have to use tactics to remove them.

5) What I was talking about with Angkor Prok is that he becomes you Commander that lets you take a larger kroot force of the types already developed and give expanded abilities to the existing units. Things like, with prok in the army the kroot gain leadership 9 and things like your Krootox can infiltrate with the rest of the army, or kroot can gain +1 I, or Gain furious assault for free, or Shapers can now improve armors save to 5+. Wasn't talking about bringing in the winged kroot. Tau are better at that sort of thing already.

As I said before, I believe there should always be Tau there to at least observe and to "Oversee" the battle.

6)The SMs regular troops got this fall back rule, which they shouldn't have.(Makes me think the next bugs list is going to really be sick.)

If there was ever an army that this tactic should have gone to first, its the Tau. This would be be the ultimate expression of the fact that Tau don't fight to hold ground.

Downside- Sms getting this first proves that they are the poster children of GW.

Upside- Now that SMs have the rule it paves the way for other (More fitting) armies to get such a rule.

8TidbiT8 wrote:I have an idea for a new drone because i like FocusedFire's input on the Tau relying on drones. How about a bodyguard Drone that attacks in CC? Anyone who has played Half-Life 2 and seen the man-hacks will know what I'm talking about. A drone with no guns but spinning blades that viciously attack enemies engaging their protectorate.

15pts/each.
WS4,BS0,S X T X I4 A2 LDx SvX
Blades act as power weapons
X=As protectorate. Mix this with the retro thrusters and you would have a nasty deterrent. What you guys think?

Good idea, bad stats for the points. On most things it will only be T3 and S3. The fact that it doesn't have a gun also makes it expensive. Leave the T and Sv the way it is because that's the best option to avoid mixed T problems, but for 15 points make it S6 rending. This way it actually is a deterrent for most things charging it. S3 doesn't really scare a whole lot of things.

I'm against an all Kroot list only because I think it would distract attention from the main Tau list.

In the 3e codex the Crisis Commander was 0-2 and your army could be led by an Ethereal.

Thank you for the info Killkrazy.

Do you think that they will go back to that format or that they will do something different?

GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I’m writing this in a hurry, so excuse me. I might edit it later.

My ideas for an overhaul of tau infantry would go something like the 4th ed guard codex; where in you could buy certain squads ONLY if you had bought a platoon first (such as armored fist, conscripts, etc.). This idea is the same, but with firewarriors: for each squad you buy, you can turn a fast attack choice or some other limited squad into a troop choice, but with limitations. This would introduce much needed variety into tau troop choices, I think. This would necessitate changes to the units in question so…

Firewarriors:
8 points base
Free photons
Shas’ui grants free bonding knife; he’s 10 points.
Carbine can reroll to hit if target is within 12’’. This makes the carbine a “reliable weapon” whereas the rifle is a “brute force” weapon.
Buying them grants special cadre options.

Gue’vesa: squad 4-16
Guardman statline
Every 4’rd can buy pulse weapon for 3 points.
Special rule: militia: Cannot be bought normally (most be taken as accompaniment to firewarriors). Gain +1 to leadership if within 6’’ of a firewarrior squad.

Would help fill in gun lines with expendable targets.

Pathfinder:
Same price and size, but get stealth and may infiltrate with out devilfish. Devilfish no longer mandatory. Their markerlights may fire as assault 18’’ weapons.

If taken as troops, cannon outflank or take a devilfish.

Gundrones:
Pretty much the same as before, really. Cost 10 points, not 12, each.

If taken as troops, cannot deep strike.

Kroot: independent units (do not need firewarriors bought to be taken.)
Krootox can infiltrate/outflank.
Shaper grants 6+ save for free and lets you reroll table edge for outflank.

Thoughts?

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I hope they do make Vsespids good. I have a whole squad of them.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:I’m writing this in a hurry, so excuse me. I might edit it later.

My ideas for an overhaul of tau infantry would go something like the 4th ed guard codex; where in you could buy certain squads ONLY if you had bought a platoon first (such as armored fist, conscripts, etc.). This idea is the same, but with firewarriors: for each squad you buy, you can turn a fast attack choice or some other limited squad into a troop choice, but with limitations. This would introduce much needed variety into tau troop choices, I think. This would necessitate changes to the units in question so…

Firewarriors:
8 points base
Free photons
Shas’ui grants free bonding knife; he’s 10 points.
Carbine can reroll to hit if target is within 12’’. This makes the carbine a “reliable weapon” whereas the rifle is a “brute force” weapon.
Buying them grants special cadre options.

Gue’vesa: squad 4-16
Guardman statline
Every 4’rd can buy pulse weapon for 3 points.
Special rule: militia: Cannot be bought normally (most be taken as accompaniment to firewarriors). Gain +1 to leadership if within 6’’ of a firewarrior squad.

Would help fill in gun lines with expendable targets.

Pathfinder:
Same price and size, but get stealth and may infiltrate with out devilfish. Devilfish no longer mandatory. Their markerlights may fire as assault 18’’ weapons.

If taken as troops, cannon outflank or take a devilfish.

Gundrones:
Pretty much the same as before, really. Cost 10 points, not 12, each.

If taken as troops, cannot deep strike.

Kroot: independent units (do not need firewarriors bought to be taken.)
Krootox can infiltrate/outflank.
Shaper grants 6+ save for free and lets you reroll table edge for outflank.

Thoughts?

I don't really understand the idea of buying more squads and turning Fast Attack into Troops.

If Tau basic Troops were better, players would use more of them and it would solve the problem without some complicated rule about squads and platoons and such.

Killkrazy, what do you think of the Stealth fighter remoras and how would you add them to the army if your could?

I, personally, really like them and am going to get some for Apoc games. Just was tinkering with how they'd work as a regular 40K unit. Maybe as Jetbikes? Or as a fast skimmer that is really hard to deal with?

I like a lot of the ideas floating around it this thread. Hopefully GW reads Dakka sometimes.

Focusedfire makes a lot of sense about firewarriors willing to give up ground. What if Firewarriors have a Deciever Like ability to fall back out of combat? Like on a 4+ they disengage before combat and count as falling back (The normal rules apply). So they could run off the board in one is not careful. Heck, if they fail the 4+, they lose their attacks in CC.

Would that work?

Probably not. As it is there is no disenscentive to do it unless you made it some squad upgrade. It isn't like Tau attacks ever kill anyone beyond making an occasional Lictor laugh himself to death. So always try for the 4+. If they run great, if they don't they probably still die in your turn. You could make them suffer from No Retreat wounds instead of the enemy attacks if they fail, which would make for an interesting gamble. Might give you the next turn to shoot at the assault troops, might make it even more likely that they'll simply finish of your firewarriors in your turn and assault again in theirs.

@Adeptsister and RailGuns-GW likes to cut/copy paste. Thats why I see the new space marine tactic of volutarilly failing morale test from shooting casualties as a good sign.

@Milquetoast-I like that quick concept. It may not be exactly what I'd push for but I definitely wouldn't complain if some of that showed up in the next Dex. Especially the Human Auxillia and the kroots.

@Killkrazy- The reason a lot of us are looking to move units out of FA is that there is to much competition there with the almost mandatory pathfinders. There are some decent units in FA that don't see as much use because of this.
When you think fast attack and then look at what the Tau have there it just doesn't fit. As much as we might fixate on the crisis suits and fire warriors, I feel that aside from new command units that this section of the FOC is whats going to get shaken up most.

I think that the pathfinders might be better served in an elite or troop slot.(Bothers me to have a Fast attack that has to sit still) but could still live with them where they are. I do have sneaking feeling that they may get replaced by Tetras(Ok with me as long as they still get scout).

I proposed that the Gun Drones move to troops just so that the Tau would have a more mobile scoring unit. I'd personally rather that they got Jetbikes but would still push for them to be moved.

Vespids- As long as they are improved they'd be fine right where they are.

Pirahnas- Up their armor to Front 12 side 11 rear 10 opentopped and give them access to the longbarreled burst cannon and the fusion cannon for close to the same price they are now(Make one kitted out come to about 120pts max after Dis. Pod, Reworked decoy launchers, BS4, Flechettes, ect...). Run them in squadrons of up to 4. Remember that their drones would be scoring units.

This leaves room for some new units.

First, How would all of you feel about the Tau Remora Stealth Fighters becoming an option for a FA. They are Stealth equipped light flyers/skimmers in 40K that carry twin-linked Long-barreled burstcannons and 2 seeker missiles. I'd have them come in squadrons of up to 4.
Second, Human auxillia , squads armed with ? still working on it. Toying with the idea of giving them Rail rifles
Third, Possible new alien ally
Fourth, mix sniper drones with crisis suits
This is how I would like to see the FOC shape up.

Special Characters-Farsight, Improved Shadowsun, *Angkor Prok, Space Pope only if he can call down precise Air Strikes, *Vespid strain overlord(?)

Hqs- Commander crisis suits, Etherals w/improved railrifle bodyguard, *Stealth commander, *Broadside Commander, *Master shaper, *Vespid strain master

Elites-Crisis, Stealth, *Thexian elite(New race), **Old pathfinders(?)

Troops- Fire warriors, Kroot, **Gun Drones,*Human auxillia

Fast Attack-*Pathfinder Tetras, Vespids, *Stealth Remora Fighter Drones, Improved Pirahnas

Heavy Support- *Rail Rifle drones teamed with crisis suits up to 3 suits and 6 drones, Broadsides, Hammer Head, SkyRay, *Maybe something big from the kroot?

*Means New

**Means moved

This type of force organiation would allow for the standard but better Tau forces normally seen. It would also allow for an almost all alien auxilla army or an almost all drone army.

Actually that looks very coherent set down on paper, as it were.

I could quibble with details here and there but the overal organisation makes sense.

I might be the only one reading this thread that hopes Human Aux stay out of the new codex. I don't like them, other alien races fine, but I just don't want to see humans in tau lists. You want humans, go play guard.

Its probably just something I ate.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I liked the Gue'La because it added a bit of variety and extra modelling possibilities and come from the Tau Fluff.

To make them less IG, bring them back equipped with puls carbines and Tau armour.

Tau Special Character

Aun Hau’ss (The Great Healer)

Revered by the Fire Caste for his ability to diagnose and rapidly cure the strangest wounds and alien diseases.

Equipped with medical drones which confer FNP on nearby units except for drones.

Oh, medical drones... that would be cool as long as they're priced appropriately or limited to a small number to be taken only with that special character.

Good idea

Che-Vito wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I might be the only one reading this thread that hopes Human Aux stay out of the new codex. I don't like them, other alien races fine, but I just don't want to see humans in tau lists. You want humans, go play guard.

Its probably just something I ate.

Not arguing your opinion, just curious as to why?

As far as a secondary race goes, I think that adding the Nicassar would be pretty sweet, basically giving the Tau a psyker unit, which I think in all fairness should have different powers/abilities than the Imperial Psykers...something more Tau-oriented....some ideas given below (please keep in mind these are suggestions, the important thought here is the inclusion of the Nicassar)

-Perils of the Warp
-No Ability etc.

Special Tau abilities:
-Battle Meditation (literally what is represented in KOTR, possibly a 1 turn boost to a specific stat for all units)
-Healer (Psyker takes on the Medic role from IG, in that it can negate 1 wound that isn't insta-death)
-Foresight (allows all Tau units to take up to their full movement before the game has begun
-Disruption Field (can disrupt 1 Deep Striking enemy unit per game, forcing player to re-roll scatter dice. BETTER result stands)

I don't like Human Aux because they didn't do anything to help the Tau. At 6 points each they were nothing more than a guardsman with lasguns, and tau 4+ armor. Everything they did, Kroot did better. Now as people are talking about upgrading their weapons and what not, your just making Human based Firewarriors. Whats the point of being Tau if you can replace all your Tau guys with humans. Alien (read non-Tau) races included in the Tau codex should fill rolls that the Tau themselves cannot accomplish. This is why Kroot work well as an HTH infiltrating unit, vespid - Well vespid didn't work due to over costing and too short range of a gun, but they were supposed to be the fast shock trooper type of unit.

The Aux just didn't do anything that wasn't already present, and they should not even be considered in the same breath as the firewarrior. Again, are we playing Tau or Guard? This is why I don't like them. Sure in the Fluff it makes sense to have human allies as not all humans are xeno-hating lunitics, but I just don't think they need an actual unit on the table top. Another alien species just seems that much cooler as long as they are not in a position to replace another job that a unit of Tau firewarriors, pathfinders, etc. fill.

As for the Nicassar, thats an awesome idea for making them the Tau psyers. I personally hate the way psychic powers are handled in 5th edition, but the Tau need some sort of psychic defense to keep from getting raped by enemy librarians/sorcers. This is an awesome fit that I wish I myself had thought of.

The Human Auxilla was just a nod to the fluff and recognizing their popularity. I, personally have no feelings either way.

Now healer units and repair drones would be really cool as long as they were upgrades and didn't take up a FOC slot.
I've wondered about the lack of healer units and have always chalked it up to the Tau being new. By the next codex they won't be that new and it would make sense.

Was toying with the idea of being able to buy redundant systems on vehicle that allow for a decent chance to repair drives on immobilized vehicles.


Nicassar-Very cool and good idea. Only prob I have is it makes the Tau too much like every other race. I'd rather Tau Science prevails in this area rather than following every other race. My opinion doesn't mean that they won't do it, though.
If they did I'd have fun with it and would like like it if the nicassar gave primarily defense against enemy psyker abilities and maybe could relocate a single squad per turn(Passing the appropriate test).

So Tau would be the "science conquers all" race that Humanity was supposed to be? Would make a nice contrast I suppose. Medical drones giving FnP would be a logical extension of the stimulant injectors that the crisis commanders get (since GW loves the constantly improving angle so much.)

I think that if Lost and Damned ever got their list back it would make human auxilia less appealing but thats just me.

Tau is supposed to be the up-and-coming tech faction, compared to the Eldar who are the fading and not advancing hi-tech faction. Humans are the medium tech faction which doesn't really understand its technology and only advances by occasional lucky rediscoveries of missing STC templates.

The timeline of the game never advances. But that's no reason not to give the Tau technological goodies.

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I could see this being exactly what happens to vespids with the exception of them being 20 points with a rapidfire gun. Because that's what GW does. They make a unit good and then jack up the price dramatically (example stormtroopers @ 16 points for the addition of ap3)

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau is supposed to be the up-and-coming tech faction, compared to the Eldar who are the fading and not advancing hi-tech faction. Humans are the medium tech faction which doesn't really understand its technology and only advances by occasional lucky rediscoveries of missing STC templates.

The timeline of the game never advances. But that's no reason not to give the Tau technological goodies.

Time does move forward in 40k, just very slowly, example: Cadia has been lost to Abbadon's fleet from the eye of terror.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I could see this being exactly what happens to vespids with the exception of them being 20 points with a rapidfire gun. Because that's what GW does. They make a unit good and then jack up the price dramatically (example stormtroopers @ 16 points for the addition of ap3)

I dont know, GW wants to sell models. The Vespids are already AP3 with their guns, just not rapid fire. They don't work now at 16 points, I don't think they will sell at all at 20 points. GW has a ton of Vespid models sitting on the shelf right now because they suck. A 20 pt rapid fire vespid wont sell. They need something different and very attractive to make them jump off the shelves and into peoples army.

@Jayden and Hustler-
Just my opinion here but GW will never give the Vepids a template like that. If they did they make them cost as much as ogryns.

I'd love it if they did get such a weapon but think it would be over powered even at S3. This would create a situation of 5 Vespids versus 10 marines. Each Vespid averages 6 marines auto hit. Thats 30 S3 to wound rolls which comes to 10 dead marines. Remember this was 5 Vespids VS 10 Marines in one round of shooting.


The best rumours I've heard so far about the Vespids is that for about the same price, maybe going up to 18Pts, they will get either poison or rending HtH attacks. To me this would be just about enough with their current weapons.

If they got rending plus an extra HtH attack that would come to be just about even when comparing 10 man squads of vespids and Meqs. with the vespids at 18 or even 20 points.

The poison attack wounding on 2+ and a role of 6 is an insta kill would work with their current profile pretty well at 16pts.

What do you guys think?

Vespids are too vulnerable, their armour save is too low. Making them more expensive for a better weapon but just as vulnerable might not work.

It might work if the player uses them cleverly as a rapid strike from behind a screen or cover. Screening them means risking another vulnerable unit though.

Vespids don't need to be better, they need to be a lot cheaper, like 12 points.

The ork burna boy can come in a unit of 15. Sure its only S4 AP5, but the whole unit can destroy what ever it touches.

Maybe if the flamer was S2. The thing is, Vespid suck right now because they are just such a linear unit. They can't do anything against horde style armies. What mob of 30 orks, 20 gaunts, or consolidated unit of 50 IG are going to care about 10 single shots a turn. None.

By giving them a flamer template now the unit is useful against all comers and bring a unique aspect to the Tau army (a army that can't really get flamer style templates.) It also goes along with GW current planning of letting one or two units in an army ignore cover. Its their way of compensating for the 4+ cover that runs rampent in the game.

Also keeping the gun AP3 is fair because of all of the other AP4, hellfire, poision ammo that the rest of 40K world is getting. It would suck if the unit was only deadly to other non-MEQ armies and those other power houses could just laugh it off.

I wasn't totally serious when I pointed them at 12 points. But even with the flamer template weapon, an armor save of only 5 does not belong on a 15+ point model regardless of what it Toughness is. (orks are a different story, they compensate for the few point heavy units by letting you take a crap ton of 6 point guys).

I agree with both of you on that there is room for improvement. I'm just not certain as to the area.

I actually got vespids to work for me in 5th ed. I just stopped using them because of the FA slots competition problem. Any game where you would use them(an unprotectd infantry/jump infantry squad) you'd be using pathfinders instead.

How about this; For the existing 16pts they get armour sv 4+, HtH poison attack, with the option to buy EMP grenades? Its either that or the Vespids as-is at Killkrazy's suggest 12pts with the EMP purchasing option.

If this doesn't seem quite right then please post suggested tweeks.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

What if fire warriors get the "Hit and run" USR that works both ways (assaulting and assaulted)? That way Tau could attempt to flee then set up a firing zone with other dudes, thus the ki'yon princeable comes more alive here (one of the 2 tau ways of war btw ^_^)

Indeed, the fire caste are high tech hunters of the future. The ground is where the kill is made, not for the taking. Once the kill has been made, the ground is their for the taking.

Superscope wrote:What if fire warriors get the "Hit and run" USR that works both ways (assaulting and assaulted)? That way Tau could attempt to flee then set up a firing zone with other dudes, thus the ki'yon princeable comes more alive here (one of the 2 tau ways of war btw ^_^)

Indeed, the fire caste are high tech hunters of the future. The ground is where the kill is made, not for the taking. Once the kill has been made, the ground is their for the taking.

Useless. Fitting under 5th ed ultimate list of bone headed rule change is the Hit and Run USR. It is now stat based. You have to roll your Initiative or under in order for it to work. So it will only work 1/3 of the time for most Tau units. Totally unbalanced across the game, especially since things like Witch Hunter Seriphim get a free ride and its been FAQed that they don't even have to test. Utter BS.

See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

Kilkrazy wrote:See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

At least with my way it's quite hard to escape. I would believe perhaps seeing Hit and run work about... 1-2 times a game perhaps?

Superscope wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

At least with my way it's quite hard to escape. I would believe perhaps seeing Hit and run work about... 1-2 times a game perhaps?

I would rather have something that boosts my FW's firepower and mobility, so I can manoeuvre into and out of the right positions. That's why I keep recommending to increase the pulser rifle to rapid fire range 15. IMO this is exactly what FW need, and it isn't a crippling advantage since a clever enemy will be be able to figure out a counter.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I agree with Killkrazy on the punishing the Tau for getting caught in HtH part.

I like the increased rapid fire range but it won't make as much of a difference unless the Tau pick up a bit more mobility.

This is why I'm so stuck on the idea of the Tau being able to voluntarily fail morale checks from shooting. Make it the reverse of the BT rule. The Tau take a wound while an enemy unit is within assault range then they may choose to vountarily fall back. Maybe, make it an option to fallback toward the etheral if the player wants. These thing combined with the increased Rapid fire range would be very nice.


@Che- I picked the emps because it would be just like GW to do something like that to them. In order to keep them from being "too effective and to stay in tune with the ranged combat style of the Tau".

Yeah, your right though. The photons would be better, but the option for both would be the best.

As to the Vespids falling back outta CC. Unless the Crisis suits got the same it would make the Vespids better than the suits in a lot of ways. It would unbalance the army.

Now for Jaydens idea about templates, Might be a cool upgrade for the Strain leader if the stats were appropriate.

In 3e, the presence of an Ethereal allowed Tau to reroll a morale roll, I think. This gave a chance of deliberately failing a shooting morale check. I may be remembering the rules incorrectly. This was an ability of the Ethereal rather than of the troops.

focusedfire wrote:I agree with Killkrazy on the punishing the Tau for getting caught in HtH part.

I like the increased rapid fire range but it won't make as much of a difference unless the Tau pick up a bit more mobility.

This is why I'm so stuck on the idea of the Tau being able to voluntarily fail morale checks from shooting. Make it the reverse of the BT rule. The Tau take a wound while an enemy unit is within assault range then they may choose to vountarily fall back. Maybe, make it an option to fallback toward the etheral if the player wants. These thing combined with the increased Rapid fire range would be very nice.

I'd rather see something along the lines of runnning after shooting for Firewarriors (ala the new Guard Codex SC order) then lifting Combat Tactics from Marines.

This will allow them to be more mobile all the time. Plus I would think such a soft assault target would just not be shot by any assaulter in range.

Jack

If the Tau got the Stealth remora drone squadrons as a FA choice. What would their rules be like?

I could see them getting infiltrate/scout but am unaware as to their armor value if any. They obviously have a stealth field but, what else?

focusedfire wrote:If the Tau got the Stealth remora drone squadrons as a FA choice. What would their rules be like?

I could see them getting infiltrate/scout but am unaware as to their armor value if any. They obviously have a stealth field but, what else?

If it's a heavy drone, give it 3+ armour and the squadron becomes 1-5 at 30 points each. Thuogh I am far from convinced that relatively vulnerable models should have a high point cost.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Thats the thing. I don't know their rules, just their weapons and size. The Remoras are supposedly flyers in IMP. Armor or apoc but wouldn't have to be in 40K.
They are armed with twin-linked Long Barreled burst cannons, a networked marker light, and two seeker missiles.

They are about the same wing span as a Pirahna but almost half the length. I was wondering, Should they be a Jetbike model or should they be another skimmer?

When you visit the Forge World website, take a look and tell me what you think.

Do you think the Remora should be a Jetbike?
Something like:
WS2 BS3 S5 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld 8 Sv 3+ (S5 simply because of size)
Unit type: Jetbike
Special rules: Stealth field, Infiltrate, Deepstrike, Scout

Or a vehicle?
AV Front:10 Side:10 Rear10
Unit type: Skimmer, Fast
Special rules: Stealth field, Infiltrate, Deepstrike, Scout


Which direction would you like to see GW take with them?

What should they cost in either direction.

I think the remora would be too good in a 40K game unless it was ridiculously expensive. It can simply fire its burst cannons or NML and stay out of the range of any return fire. There's a reason it is a flyer.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Personally, I'd make the Ramora a bike. The Tau already have a small vehicle in the Piranha and Tetra (if the Tetra gets used.)

However your talking lots of points. Sure Seekers are 20 of the thirty points, but if you take a couple of Remora's then your almost forcing the player to also take 200+ points in pathfinders. After all, Ramora's without extra markerlights are REALLY expensive burst cannons, with two one shot S8 things. So they either get one shot off before getting shut down or if your lucky live but don't do much of anything after turn 2.

Making the seekers non-mandatory, drops the cost down and allows for a mobile marker light (which truthfully is what we all want). Now it might be considered. Or better yet, make it an add-on unit to pathfinders. Since people don't want to take pathfinder devilfish, allow for a unit of 3 remoras (with seekers) to be taken in place of it for 30 points each. Now, your getting more bang for your buck and not competing for FOC slots.

Remember that Long-barreled burst cannons have the following profile:

Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 3


I think that they would be better as a squad or squadron of their own, though.

Personally I think they would make a great Jetbike unit but would be happy with them either way

As a jetbike I see them coming in at 50points each but if made multiwound then I could see them 60 each.

As a skimmer squadron I see them as the same price range as the pirahnas but with a very different purpose.(I want the Pirahnas to become scoring unit transports by making the Drones troops).

Also, know that the special rules were only suggested. I personally dont think that they would need scout. Was just throwing options out for poeple to pick and choose from.

Unless things have changed drastically from the VDR I have in my White Dwarf. Long barreled only increases range by 50%. Mega is the one where it increases the S by 1 and lowers the AP by 1. So thats what I was going by. 27" S5 AP5 guns. Didn't think it was all that and a bag of chips. But if it is S6 AP4, with double the range thats a bit different, although not that much better than a standard Heavy Bolter which on vehicles usually is 5-10 points.

I always thought mega heavy flamers would be the bomb. GW did too which is why you see them on the LR Redeemer.

The guns are 36" range in the FW rules. With a stealth field that means most people shooting them are going to be deploying from the sides. If markerlights are more viable in other units such as broadsides or FCW in the future, then the seekers would still be useful.

The only thing I can see competing with remoras in fast attack would be pathfinders or tetras if they were allowed in the Codex.

@Dal'yth- I see and agree with your point of being to good.

How about this for the FA slots:

Tetra is the new Jetbike. It can dance at he edge of spotting distance but doesn't deal much damage in itself. It replaces standard pathfinders which now become either an elite or a troop choice.

The Improved Vespids are still jump infantry designed to take on MEQs and even heavy MEQs.(Hey, Vespid gun becomes AP2 along with improve HtH poison attack?)

The Pirahnas are now objective capturing drone troop transport with improved weapons(Long barreled BC or Fusion Cannon)

The tetras are the lightly armoured firepower skimmers. As skimmers they have to be barely within spotting distance to fire thus are able to be countered by other fast vehicles/skimmers able to get within 24" and attempt to fire on them. Because of the stealth fields they are unable to take disruption pods.

How does that sound for Tau FA choices?

I think pathfinders should stay in fast attack. You want them deployed last and shouldn't compete with crisis or stealth suits.

I find tetras really good in 4th. You can't get the numbers needed in 5th, but I think they'd be a nice addition for a new codex.

I have no suggestions for vespids. I'm not sure what role they should perform, but I'm not too keen on what I've seen.

I've never liked the short range on piranhas. I'd prefer a medium range gun to offset their otherwise eggshell armor. I can't think of what that gun would be in the existing arsenal. The fluff has them not being big on the battlefield and I'm not sure why GW ever put them in the main codex.

Can't offer much more than that. The current approach seems to have Codexes offset the core rule changes and I think in the case of the Tau (and Necrons) that means a more thorough thought of what the army's brand and signature units are to be.

I've moved on to AT-43 thanks to GW's new approach so can't offer much playtesting against the newest codexes.

The reason I didn't mind moving the pathfinders is that in 5thed the entire army deploys at the same time.

I agree that the Tau will probably get an extensive rework, starrting in the markerlight area and Fast attack then moving on from there.

Sorry to here that you've dropped the game. Maybe things will change enough to bring you back at some point.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I think pathfinders should stay in fast attack. You want them deployed last and shouldn't compete with crisis or stealth suits.

I find tetras really good in 4th. You can't get the numbers needed in 5th, but I think they'd be a nice addition for a new codex.

I have no suggestions for vespids. I'm not sure what role they should perform, but I'm not too keen on what I've seen.

I've never liked the short range on piranhas. I'd prefer a medium range gun to offset their otherwise eggshell armor. I can't think of what that gun would be in the existing arsenal. The fluff has them not being big on the battlefield and I'm not sure why GW ever put them in the main codex.

It was a groovy new model fairly cheap to make since Forgeworld had already done the design work. I agree with you they need a longer range weapon because of the terrible armour.

*smacks head*

forgot the new deployment method, though I still think GW has the suits as the Tau signature unit.

I'm not convinced in the reflexive belief markerlights and, by extension, pathfinders are all that great in 5th. One would need to take them in such great numbers that there'd be little non-S5 options left in the other FOC slots. Like I said, I only played 7-8 games with them in 5th.

For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

Pathfinders:
WS:2 BS:3 S:2 T:3 W:1 I:2 Ld:7 Sv:4+ Cost: 15pts

May be mounted in a devilfish at +80pts, if taken may take the devilfish's place on the FOC as a troop

Dedicated Scouts: Pathfinders are perfects scouts and have the following rules as dictated in the rulebook: Relentless, Scout, Infiltrate, may also pay +10 pts to infiltrate with no min distance from the enemy regardless of deployment.

Might give them stealth but i dunno

THIS IS JUST A THEORY

Krellnus wrote:For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

I feel this is way to strong. If you think to the Tyranid fluff, they disturb the warp and still face the full force of its power. Maybe something like theirs would be good. Like you roll and extra D3 or something, nothing too powerful

Dal'yth Dude wrote:*smacks head*

forgot the new deployment method, though I still think GW has the suits as the Tau signature unit.

I'm not convinced in the reflexive belief markerlights and, by extension, pathfinders are all that great in 5th. One would need to take them in such great numbers that there'd be little non-S5 options left in the other FOC slots. Like I said, I only played 7-8 games with them in 5th.

Markerlights are very expensive at the moment. Plenty of cheap markerlights would help restore Tau firepower and compensate for their lack of H2H.

Krellnus wrote:For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

Pathfinders:
WS:2 BS:3 S:2 T:3 W:1 I:2 Ld:7 Sv:4+ Cost: 15pts

May be mounted in a devilfish at +80pts, if taken may take the devilfish's place on the FOC as a troop

Dedicated Scouts: Pathfinders are perfects scouts and have the following rules as dictated in the rulebook: Relentless, Scout, Infiltrate, may also pay +10 pts to infiltrate with no min distance from the enemy regardless of deployment.

Might give them stealth but i dunno

THIS IS JUST A THEORY

15 points is overprices, pathfinders would not want to infiltrate right next to an enemy, paricularly not for 10 points, nd they don't need relentless, just assault markerlights.


starting with a base 8 points for a firewarrior... give them stealth (+1) and infiltrate (+1), and assault 18 / heavy 36 markerlights (+1). Give them a special rule: eyes of the cadre: for every pathfinder team you buy, one unit that may not normally outflank may do so. (+2). They are now 13 points base. maybe give them an option to buy an expensive wargear that allows them to reroll coversaves, like 2-3 points per model.

Kilkrazy: Even if markerlights were free, one would need to take a great number of them to compensate for the BS3 of the owner.

Let's pretend a player takes 2 max squads of pathfinders. That means roughly 8 markerlight hits a turn until a heavy bolter is pointed their way. It also means one less squad of Fast Attack options. That's more my point rather than the cost per-se.

Tau don't actually have psychic protection; they simply don't have any psychic presence. Psychic powers hit them at full effect,(they are not nulls) they just don't understand what the frag just happened. They assume that whenever some race uses a psychic lightning bolt that it must be some handheld projector or something.

Pathfinders are one of those funny units in 40K. Is a unit thats primary purpose is to not kill a damn thing themselves.

Wierd huh?

One could rationalize them out as the poor mans devistator squad, but to do that you need seeker missiles, and a 10 points each and only two allowed per vehicle, they are not all that point friendly. Worse they have a weapon and a profile that do not match.

The marker light is a heavy weapon, the pathfinder is a T3 4+ sv model. Not stats that are conducive to staying for prolonged periods of time on the table if they can't move. They were thrown a bone by also being armed with a pulse carbine, but at 18", they were still in range of any weapon that could easily cut them down once they stopped moving. Because lets face it, pathfinders have a huge target painted on them, they never really last that long.

Honestly, pathfinders should probably just go away in the new codex. If markerlights become assault instead of heavy and are reduced in price and become networked then you can get all the markerlights you need by taking marker drones in your normal firewarrior squads. Let stealth suits take them, which is actually a perfectly good place to put them. If things like the Ramora or Tetra are also included then you can have mobile markerlights. Lets also not forget the sniper drone team. A perfect compliment to a stealth unit, yet again, more marker lights.

Really, if you think about it, if you remove pathfinders from the army list, it really opens up the FA for pirahnas, improved vespids, and other creations. The almost mandatory unit of pathfinders in todays list really puts a crimp on other possible FA based lists.

I suppose you could move them to Troop, and that wouldn't be a bad thing, except that they still have a profile not designed to allow them to live for very long.

That's why I never really liked Pathfinders.

Pathfinders are supposed to be a combination forward observer and scout. But, as a markerlight bearing unit, they're really used to sit in the back of a DZ and light stuff up. Now, if Markerlights were Assault weapons (or even rapid fire), using them to outflank and then come on and call in Seeker Missiles might work. The other problem is that all the lights in a unit target one enemy unit. Now, that's fine if you want to reduce cover saves and raise BS (which is typical), but if you want to call in a bunch of seeker missiles - you may not want all four seeker missiles at one target.

I think a lot of the 'fixes' in the Codex is bringing the roles of various units into line with the fluff and background.

I was looking at the codex the other week. The basic Cadre is a commander and command team in suits, a bunch of fire warriors, another crisis suit unit, and then supporting units (broadsides, piranhas) and allies (kroot and vespids).

So to me, the first step is - fix FWs. Make an army with 3-6 units of FWs competitive. Not 'nob biker' competitive, but 'SM Battlecompany' competitive. If the 'fluff' army is effective, people will field it. Right now, it isn't, so people don't. Then add the ancilary units to cover other areas in your army build.

And, I think one of the great problems with tau is the same with Necrons. You have one basic 'trooper' model.

The marker light is a heavy weapon, the pathfinder is a T3 4+ sv model. Not stats that are conducive to staying for prolonged periods of time on the table if they can't move. They were thrown a bone by also being armed with a pulse carbine, but at 18", they were still in range of any weapon that could easily cut them down once they stopped moving. Because lets face it, pathfinders have a huge target painted on them, they never really last that long.

This is why I feel assault 18'' markers would make them much more dangerous: I recently wrote a really-dedicated mecht tau list, and after rereading the core rulkes realized the pathfinders would be almost useless, since they would be a static element in a mobile list. you can't really have them hop out of a fish and light gak up for truly devastating fish-of-fury attacks. assault 18'' as an alternate firemode on their lights fixes that first point.

fragility as a second point, is why they need to get all sorts of silly buffs to their cover saves orsomething: pathfinder teams with a 3+ cover save (when firing from behind a gunline) would make them stick around longer. they should also probably have leadership 8 base, since I don't think pathfinders are rookie" firewarriors.

Pathfinders are supposed to be a combination forward observer and scout. But, as a markerlight bearing unit, they're really used to sit in the back of a DZ and light stuff up.

This is why I think pathfinders should increase the cadre's outflank abilities: pathfinders are supposed "to pull their cadres forward into combat," but you never really see that happen in-game. but having a pair of pathfinder teams and 2 firewarrioor/crisis teams come in from outflank and shooting all your tanks in the ass with bs4-5 s5 weaponry would be an awesome sight to see, and more to the point, would make the the "mobility" of tau different from the "mobilty" of mech eldar and such.

I don't like needing to field unit A to get more utility/ability out of unit B. Same reason that I don't like needing the Etheral for the morale re-rolls (which, with Ld8, Tau need). I much prefer having those abilities built into a unit. If you need Pathfinders to Outflank Firewarriors, one of two things will happen: it'll be a cheesy powerbuild, or it'll be an overpointed worthless bonus.

I think the concept is fine, but then just let Fire Warriors outflank (and explain in the fluff, it's because of Pathfinders, who might be 'off table' giving support) and get the FWs pointed appropriately.

Regrettably GW has gone with the idea of "If you take this, you get this." mentality for 5th ed codexs.

So if taking pathfinders opens up other options for other units, I see that as a real possibility.

Also since this is 5th ed were talking about the assault 18" markerlights as suggest above is a little on the low side. 24" minimum, but leave the heavy setting at 36".

I've been thinking about Drone support units, lots of potential here. The drones we do have are gun, shield, marker, and sniper. I think adding in a medic drone for FNP, Distortion Emmiter Drone for disrupting deepstrike, and suicide drones (think demo charges) would be interesting ideas for adding in more options.

Along those lines, I'd like to see a 55 point devilfish that comes with a drone support system. You can choose any of the drone support systems at no extra cost, instead of just being stuck with gun drones. Naturally you can still upgrade the drone support system to an SMS system. I also think that burst cannons on Tau vehicles should be considered defensive weapons.

The concept of Unit A helping Unit B is combined arms. It's the way most successful armies have always worked, and it's the way Tau are supposed to work. A combined arms army used well, should be able to exert 15 points of force for each 10 points it costs, but if used badly it exerts 5 points of force. (Made up numbers... the meaning is clear, I hope.)

The problem with 40K is for example in terms of morale, Tau are practically the only army that doesn't get Morale 9+ either automatically or easily, and Ethereals are too weak/expensive.

(IMO the whole 40K morale system is broken and needs replacement, but that's another thread.)

Jayden63 wrote:Regrettably GW has gone with the idea of "If you take this, you get this." mentality for 5th ed codexs.

So if taking pathfinders opens up other options for other units, I see that as a real possibility.

That approach has generally only been used for HQs though. I wouldn't be shocked if you take a Commander as an HQ, then you can take one crisis suit team as a troop choice (ala Warboss and Nobz, SM Captain with Bike, etc.). I would be surprised if it was, "If you army includes Pathfinders, one unit gains the Scout USR." That doesn't mean it's impossible, but I'd be surprised.

Kilkrazy wrote:The concept of Unit A helping Unit B is combined arms. It's the way most successful armies have always worked, and it's the way Tau are supposed to work. A combined arms army used well, should be able to exert 15 points of force for each 10 points it costs, but if used badly it exerts 5 points of force. (Made up numbers... the meaning is clear, I hope.)

I'd consider that Synergy more than Combined Arms. Combined Arms means fielding tanks, aircraft, artillery, infantry, etc. - well, at least that is the meaning that I put on it.

One of the problems with the Tau army is that a number of units have pretty 'defined' roles. Your anti-tank is pretty much only in the Heavy support section (with fusion blasters avaiable to some elites and FA). Unlike, say marines, where anti-tank can be a Combat Squad with a lascannon, a Dev Squad, or terminators with CML. Firewarriors have the best small arm in the game - and nothing else. They can only be anti-infantry (and anti-light-light vehicles - like ork trucks).

I look forward to the next Tau codex. Tau, right now, have some pretty 'non-typical' rules and abilities. I'm curious to see what GW does with them. Based on how the game is going, I would think Tau will be streamlined, simplified - fill in whatever word you want - and lose (or see big revamps to) at least some 'non-typical' things like Target Locks and Markerlights.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

With codex creep well established, I'm wondering about our poor railgun. It was the hotness because it was the first weapon to be S10 (back then ap1 didn't mean anything). It was one of the few things that helped make the Tau special. But now everyone and their dog has ways of getting S10 attacks (either shooting or melee).

So call me crazy, but what if the Railgun got to be the first 40K non apocalypse specific weapon to get Strength D to be used in normal every day 40K?.

Suddenly all of the eternal warriors need to watch their backs. Once again, vehicles would fear the Railgun regardless of what sort of 4+/3+ cover save cheese they are attempting.

Its not too far fetched considering Railguns are still pretty limited in a Tau army.

Donno, just sitting back in my chair thinking Tau and the rise of their technology.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I know that I'm biased because its my idea but I like the thought of having 2 different weapon profiles for the broadside and the hammerhead railguns.

Leave the broadside profile the same but make the guns twin insead of twin-linked. This makes them two shots per turn.

The Hammerhead I'd like to see the profile go up to a heavy 2 with increased range and some special rules.
When solid shot is fired and both shots wound the wounds ignore invulnerable saves. If they both pen vs armor the the shot can count as 1 Destroyer hit instead.

On the submunition round any shot that doesn't scatter treats cover just like a barrage weapon and if both shots hit then the shots are counted as two S7 AP3 Large Blasts that treat cover as if they were barrages.

Input please

Well... I have recently acquired my tau army, so I'm not an expert but...

That sounds a little too good

focusedfire wrote:I know that I'm biased because its my idea but I like the thought of having 2 different weapon profiles for the broadside and the hammerhead railguns.

Leave the broadside profile the same but make the guns twin insead of twin-linked. This makes them two shots per turn.

The Hammerhead I'd like to see the profile go up to a heavy 2 with increased range and some special rules.
When solid shot is fired and both shots wound the wounds ignore invulnerable saves. If they both pen vs armor the the shot can count as 1 Destroyer hit instead.

On the submunition round any shot that doesn't scatter treats cover just like a barrage weapon and if both shots hit then the shots are counted as two S7 AP3 Large Blasts that treat cover as if they were barrages.

Input please

This trikes me as overly complicated. just make it a lance weapon if you want to combat codex creep. Hammerheads are one of the last units in the tau army to need improvements, aside from readjusting base prices to reflect the lower utility of skimmers in 5th ed.

Give the Railgun an incendiary round which creates a large flame blast ignoring cover.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

i LOVE the idea of the Remora landing on the scene as i love the model and think of it as acting as pin-point fire support for FW squads.
I think they should act as light skimmers since being drones they wouldn't be able to attack in CC and would just move up in altitude and evade combat. Possible upgrades Swap LB burst cannons for Twin-Linked Missile Pods for free or Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles for +20 pts.

As for the HH problem, i like the drone assisted Sub-Munitions that the Manta has(d6 scatter instead of 2d6), transfer that to the HH and you have accurate blast damage.

Drones can attack in CC.

I'm saying fluff wise I don't see a floating remora as being capable of holding off an assault or being able to retaliate in kind which is why i'd rather see it as a light skimmer.

One suggestion that isn't really about changing the rules: the next codex could really use some diagrams showing how to determine which armor value you're shooting at when targeting Tau vehicles! They're very irregularly shaped so it would be nice to have a consistent standard for everyone to go by - the big rulebook has these diagrams for box-shaped Rhinos and stuff but they don't work very easily for Tau vehicles, especially with the weird shape of the front ends.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

It is crucial to planning a remake of Tau first to decide how good they should be in H2H. My opinion is they should remain mostly poor.

In fact I would reduced the H2H abilities of Crisis suits and give them more shootiness instead, this is in line with my general view that Tau need to be given more firepower and mobility, rather than H2H.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Yes. I see no reason to suppose that battlesuit pilots would improve their I, WS and A as a result of years of avoiding H2H, and not training in it. It would be much better if their A was applied to firing weapons.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Plus the vets are piloting battle suits, which are the tau version of power armor. So the stats increase make sense. Better attacks because instead of punching someone with fists, they smack you up side the head with a heavy gun or kick you suits legs. The better initiative comes from the suit making them faster. At least that's how I see it. Plus it is always fun when a crisis suit manages to run down an enemy unit in close combat and destroys them.

But they pay quite a few points for that moderate hth ability when I'd rather those points go towards making them lethal shooting threats in the day of cover save parties.

The thing is, HTH is not just a trifle aspect of 40K. Its not something that can be ignored. 5th edition is heavily focused on HTH. The devastating results of HTH resolution combined with short starting distances and the numerous ways units have to reaching you all add up to actually HTH being THE most important part of the game and the easiest way to get a win.

Unfortunately we talk about maneuverability, but the truth is, there isn't that much room to move. Unless you purposely put impassible terrain on the table, it is impossible to create choke points. It is impossible to continually make a firing retreat as you eventually run out of table. Even difficult terrain is not a limiting factor 1/3 of the time, and it sure as hell isn't a deterrent.

The sad truth is that at some point the Tau have to put down their guns and grab sticks. Everyone and their dog knows to beat Tau all you have to do is catch them, unfortunately 5th ed has made that all too easy.

Truthfully what Tau need is a unit of Death Company. They actually need a HTH unit that can hit so damn hard that the enemy will actually have to think twice before sending in a unit. Even the SAFH guard and marine armies all had at least one unit of strong HTH support to protect their firing lines. The Tau need this more than any of them. Now I don't think the Tau should be able to make an army out of them. But allowing for a single, maybe two, units of kick ass HTH will be enough to help keep the enemy off our backs.

One good place to do this is to actually pump up the Krootox like it was represented in Dawn of War. That thing put out the hurt and kept going. Make it so that a normal unit of Kroot can take 5 Krootox. Make the Krootox monsterious creatures at WS4 S6 A3 I4 with a 4+ inv save. When mixed into a unit of kroot and your opponent realizes that you can dump wounds onto the Kroot to keep the OX swinging, your opponent might think twice about just running forward.

The thing is, sure we could make the Tau just obliterate everything on the table by turn 3 at range. (about how long you have to do it before the enemy closes too many units onto ours), but that will not go over well at all, and quite frankly sounds boring to play (at least after the first 10 or so crushing victories) or play against.

All that you say is true and it is a sad reflection of how GW have unbalanced the game in 5e.

Of course there are many ranged combat games which are not boring. The key point is the cleverness of the game design.

Perhaps some mean H2H units, such as Assassination drones, could be added for 5e and taken out in 6e when the rules get rebalanced.

Tau assassination drone squadron 0-10, 18 points

WS5, S4, I5, BS2, A2, Ld7, T3, Sv4+, Jetpack movement

Twin pulse pistol, two power angle grinders. Gets four attacks on the charge, two of them at S8/I1.

It only needs a new sprue to replace the bottom of the standard gun drone.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

IMHO, The reason for the Crisis suits improved stat-line isn't to make them HtH. Its to make them durable and survivable enough to tie-up/delay a squad for maybe an extra turn.

They don't get powerfists or an incredible number of attacks. What they get is just enough of a boost that if caught by a general troop or such(Nothing assault oriented) that they can possibly do enough damage to have a chance of sticking around for the next turn(Tarpitting). They also as an elite need to be strong onough to win when another shooty armies basic troops tangle with them in HtH. A basic IG infantry squad should not be able to wipe them off of the field.

The increased toughness and the multi-wounds are a testament to the concept of enhanced durability. It is in keeping with the tau firewarriors being some of the best armored basic troops that are non-augmented, non-superhuman, and non-magical. They aren't designed to go into HtH but if someone foolishly assaults with a weak unit, the Tau can win based on the 4+ armor save. This is of course, as long as there are no power weapons.

I, personally, think that GW did a good job of balancing the Tau stat-line for 4th ed. I'm thinking it may need a tweek for 5th ed, though. This is why I tossed out the idea of T4 for the starting point for the Tau. It wouldn't be over the top, just more durable.

This would make Stealth suits T4 and crisis suits T5. Not that out of line when compared with what we've seen in 5th ed 40k,IMO. The real question is this in keeping with the philosophy of what is Tau. In 4th ed I would have said maybe but not needed. In this edition I can see this as having a need. The Stat line for the basic FW would look something like this:
WS2 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+

Not a HtH Juggernaught just something fairly durable without becoming too much like one of the other races.


@Jayden, I hear what you saying but still believe that the Tau can be made into a balanced force that is still playable and fun.

I, personally am still winning more than I'm losing with my Tau. I've found that I can still, usually, punch a hole big enough for the manuvering room get to a long edge game.
The problem is that when I get the room that there isn't enough mobility in my troops to capatalize on this. By the time they load up and reposition my opponent has run and stayed with me.

This is why the Tau need troops that can either be more mobile(Buyable Engine upgrade that allows the Devilfish to have an extra 6" of movement) or shoot and move 12"(Drones as troops)

I really like Your KrootOx idea. You did lose me a little with the 4+ inv save, though. I think T6 W3 with FNP would be more fitting.
Still keep it at 3 Krootox per troop selection but allow them to still infiltrate. Maybe tie them in with the Shaper to where they behave as long as he's there to guide them but if he dies they go into a stampede.
Then do something similar with the Greater Gnarlock but when their handler dies they go into a rage.

What do you think of these tweeks?


@Killkrazy-I like your overall concept of Tau not getting a great HtH unit, yet I disagree about your stance on the Tau veteran stats for the reasons I just stated above in this post.

As to the assain drones. Don't give up just yet on the Tau philosophy of war. Take a look at what the IG are getting. They aren't getting any form of a real boost to their HtH. Yet, by them being redesigned to more accurately reflect their army Archtype they are going to be very competitive. This seems to be the current trend, making the armies perform more in accordance with their base concept. If this trend continues then look for the next codex to be even more Tau-like than this one.

After biting my tongue for a bit, i'll jump back into this discussion.

I look at what guard and other shooty armies are getting and I would hope we would get some love at somepoint

Current Ideas:
Tau Crisis Suits - should be T5 with all the new big guns out there T5 seems needed, Hit and Run - yes we have low I but would help us get out, I think BS 4 would help out as well (they should shoot better than FW), finally squads of 5 would increase their survival rate

Broadsides - built in ASS, BS4, T5, TL Hvy 2 railguns...still caped at squads of 3

Kroot - Shaper drops in points, grants FC, Kroot still can infiltrate with Krootox, 5+ armor for free

HH - TL Railgun

Perhaps a few other generals as IC...perhaps form ForgeWorld?

Other stuff already mentioned

I still believe that Tau have been hurt badly in 5th but and just really need a few rules tweaks/points tweeks to be back in action.

Overall I think people are overestimating how ridiculous a new Tau codex should be. I'm honestly not into most of the statline changes people suggest (except for boosting kroot a little), especially the wild gun changes - I'm used to the Tau stats, I think they make sense, and I'm afraid of change! I personally want most of the Tau changes to involve more efficient costing (cheaper fire warriors and devilfish, etc.), better FOC choices sometimes (gun drones as Troops or whatever), and wholly new units and upgrades, especially things that can give us sweet special abilities to slow down the enemy or actually escape from sweeping advance sometimes, cleverly re-maneuver to shoot some more. I don't really want to have T4 BS4 4++ Jet Pack fire warriors, just more tricksy fire warriors and other units that support them really well. I don't know.

It has been quite some time since I followed or weighted in on 5E Tau, as I think I covered most of my key points early in this discussion. However, as there's a recap, I'll give a little commentary from a non-Tau player, and what I'd like to see for carved out for them within the 40k metagame.

focusedfire wrote:Now to recap the high points of what I feel needs reworking, updating, or what was missed.

A)Tau mobility has taken a hit and needs improvement. Especially in the troops area of the FOC.

A2) Also their should be no static infantry held heavy weapons. The only exception to this might be the rail rifle if used as in an Ethereals bodyguard.

B) I feel the Tau are going to need an effective increase in firepower also. It just needs to happen in a Tau-like way.

C)Tau FOC is in need of restructuring to shift some units where they are needed most. Fast attacks and heavies have to much competition.

D)Markerlights are in desperate need of a rework. Just can't get enough lights in a list without crippling the army.

E)Tau vehicles need more weapon variants

F) The Tau need more history to help define their philosiphy and thus their heros and leaders. This will lead to more effective special charcters. Side note* Make the etherals honorblades +2 strength power weapons or give them a gun to shoot.

A. Tau mobility is only bad because their Transports are overpriced using a 4E pricing model. In 5E, the Transport should come down considerably, greatly reducing this limitation.

A2. This is a given - Tau units are armed uniformly. I suggest (non-Scoring) Drone Special Weapons Squadrons, and still think these would be desirable. The occasional Human unit armed with Lasguns, Special + Heavy would also be acceptable. These could be keyed as 0-1 per Fire Warrior unit.

B. Additional firepower should also come from reduced per-model costs, similar to how Guard and esp. Ork basic infantry costs came down. FW dropping a couple points would seem to be about right, supplemented by non-FOC Heavy Drone Squadrons.

C. I'm not particularly interested in reshuffling the FOC per se. Some armies are going to have bad sections of the FOC, other sections heavily-contested. Making all Drones non-FOC would be a help. Having strong Heavies and good Fast is very Guard-like, which makes sense considring how Tau are essentially Xenos Guard.

That said, more Xenos allies as Elites would be highly desirable to show the Greater Good in action. 50-pt S6 T6 A3 W2 Rending Monstrous Creatures (Donorian Clawed Fiends) would be a great Xenos ally, along with Stealthy Infiltrators (Hrud). A non-FOC Raging Swarm unit could also be added. Kroot should be tailorable, taking a half step from the Mercenaries list. I'd suggest the option for all Kroot to have 1 USR (army-wide).

D. Markerlights definitely don't work properly - too messy. Markerlights ought to work more similarly to Searchlights, allowing all other Tau units to key off the Markerlight. I suggest: A unit fires its Markerlight (only) at an enemy unit; if it hits, any other Tau unit shooting at the target unit may re-roll all to-hit rolls.

E. I'm sure Tau will get more variants. Of that I have no worry.

F. I have no problem giving Tau Relic Blades (+2S PWs) of some sort.

Anyhow, hope this helps.

Thanks John, Its nice to have an impartial viewpoint.

I like the Tau. Because I like and play the Tau there will be a tendency to push/wish for too much.

Having the viewpoint of one whom doesn't play Tau helps me to reign in a certain amount of over-zealousness on my part.


Some questions about your analysis.

First, How do you justify such a small empire having cheap basic troops?
Do you see this being the result of a major expansion of the Tau empire?

The reason I ask is because without some major shift in the size of the Tau empire and an exponential increase in available manpower it doesn't seem to make sense. This is why my suggestions have been working from the point of slightly improving stats.
I know its only fluff but I feel that GW uses the fluff as the defining philosophy to help when redoing a given army(I'm probably wrong on this).

Next question. Could you pls define XREPDROPDRIPz? Imay be an idiot for not knowing but I'd rather find out than remain ignorant.


Once again, thank you for answering my request for input.

I would say I like Strength D railguns, but I don't know what strength D does

For Kroot:
USR: Tailored Genes:
The Kroot have the ability to 'pull' useful DNA out of their food, and may take one of the follow gene upgrades:
Human: Kroot breed quicker and hence may take up to twice as many karnivores as they normally would
Ork: After eatin da boyz kroot become orkier and as such have +1 T and +1 A
Eldar: Kroot gain some of the eldar's natural agility and psychicness they benefit from +1 I and may use the following psychic power
Kroot Psychic Roar:
All Kroot may move and assault 12" and shoot and run (unpenalized by rapid fire and terrain) in the same turn once per game (not the first)
Space Marine: Become 'super kroot' and gain +1 T +1 BS and +1 S

just thinking, not points costs at the moment but would maybe playtest to find how they balance.

Cheap basic Troops are here to stay as part of 5E, or didn't you see the Ork Codex?

The Fluff is very clear that the Tau are expanding *very* rapidly in Imperial terms, I would hazard to guess semi-exponentially. That means there will be much more Xenos allies and more numbers of Tau on the field. I think that GW was overly timid with the last Tau Codex, so this should be bolder and add more Xenos and Crisis Suit POWER FISTS!


Also, the XREP... was Dakka doing something stupid about my ampersand character. I was just proposing a bog standard Human (i.e. IG-like) Infantry squad.

@John- I'm not complaining. Could definitely live with the points drop for troops.

This will sound weird,especially after wishlisting for some similar, but the though of Power Fists on crisis suits makes me worry about the Tau losing their flavor.

Maybe they can channel power into the suits forearms making them power weapons but even then that should be a Farsight Army only ability.

With the exceptions of what I've mentioned/questioned in these last two posts I pretty much agree with your take. Some points I'd quibble a little with but all in all a nice reset.

There does seem to be a theme of the drones and the markerlights needing to be reworked along with an expanded kroot list of options.


Thanks for answering the questions.


@Krellnus-Strength D is an Apoc term for destroyer weapons. They are very good at tking out Titans, BaneBlades, and the like.


Edit for sentence sorting

Does a IG Commander having a Power Weapon affect the Guard flavor? If someone were to max out IG Power Weapons, would we imagine that the Guard had changed? No, so don't sweat the PFs on Crisis Suits. Besides, with the unit being only 3 (4?) WS3 models, I don't see this beng an option that's going to scare any "real" Assault unit with a Power Weapon.

Keeping with the "anime" feel that some people claim the Tau have, I'd think giving crisis suits force pikes (power weapons) would fit the Tau theme very well.

To keep with Tau don't like to get sticky in HTH give the weapons 2" reach. Thus in any assault phase where a model with a force pike is within 2" of an enemy unit (but not currently engaged in any melee) that model may make its full compliment of HTH attacks against that enemy unit. The Tau unit gets no bonus for charging (because they didn't), the enemy unit does not get a counter charge move because they were never charged.

Kinda like the Ork boarding plank.

Yeah, seems a little strong. Would be kinda neat though and unique.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

hi guys, I'm new here but I'll throw in my 2 cents on one of tau's major problems in 5e, which is the usefulness and survivability of our firewarriors.

Firstly, I'd recommend a 2 point drop like everyone else has been saying, but that's already been discussed.

Another idea I had, which is a way of upgrading firewarriors without breaking the fluff about not integrating heavy weapons is the idea of "gadgets".

For example,

Laser sights:Short ranged laser pointers aid unsteady hands against charging enemies. +2 points per model, every model in the unit gains +1 BS at 12''
Collapsible bipods: The unit can hug the ground but still hold it's weapons steady on their bipods. +2 points per model. The unit may fire the turn after having gone to ground. All other affects still apply.

I can't think of any other examples right now.

Another idea I had was that of the "tactical withdrawal", which plays off the crisis suits' jet pack move.

Tactical withdrawal: Units of Firewarriors and Pathfinders may take their run move during the assault phase, after having shot, and do not need to assault an enemy unit.

Feel free to criticize and discuss.

FW stay the same except BS4 because they are elite rank and file troops

New drone weapon: Particle Beam: S8 AP3 Heavy 1 Range 36" A new weapon designed to accompy commanders and units that cannot take markerlights, replaces the need of seek missiles over short distances and designed to counter other races 'krak' missiles.

Railguns: increase cost by 15-20 points however has the following USR: No Recoil: Although a pain to reload even for more experienced Fire Warriors, The Railgun has virtually no recoil however counts as a DEFENSIVE weapon Hammerheads and Assault 1 on Broadsides (to overpowered? But follows laws of physics)

I'm just throwing out some of my opinions on points cost.

With the exception of Kroot. Most things in the Tau codex are already over costed by current 5th ed codex standard. So it boggles the mind when people suggest an improvement but then increase the cost of the unit. How about starting with just making them worth the current cost. The following are just my opinion of what sort of point drop the models probably should have to fit in with the current 5th ed model.

Basic firewarrior 2-3 points
pathfinder 2-3 points
Vespid 4 points
Hammerhead chassy 20 points
Devilfish chassy 30 points
Pirahna 10 points
Stealthsuits 8 points
Crisis suits 5 points
gun drones 4 points
Broadsides 10 points

Weapon systems should also come down in price. After all, plasma guns are not nearly as effective at range because of the abundance of 4+ cover. However, I'm not going to reprice the entire Tau armory, prices change depending on what weapon is on what unit, how many, etc.

Firewarrior stat line is fine, they just need a price reduction. If a unit of 12 FWs with a Devilfish was in the 150-point range (figure, 7-8 pts each = 85-95, and Fish is around 60), six full units would only be 900 points. That's a bargain.

@Jayden- Those point drops sound really good but the only skimmers that might drop in price are the Pirahnas, IMO.

Looking at what the IG are getting and what has been done to points costing of skimmers in general for 5th ed, I think we are deluding ourselves if we think they are going to drop more than 5pts in price. Now if we were SM's instead of Tau it might be different.

@everyone-
I'll admit that a lot of my ideas about the direction of the next Tau codex come from looking at FW peices and what they are doing. It seems that GW is bringing more stuff from FW at an ever increasing rate. This is why I feel that the list of new stuff for the Tau will be somewhere in this group:

Tetras
Remoras
The new twin gunned Pirahna
New Kroot options
Greater variety of turret options for the Hammerhead
Sleeker crisis suits(Maybe, I think it may not be cost effective to upgrade and the FW variants are still selling nicely)
New alien Auxilla
And Drum roll please.....................

The Barracuda in plastic form. Just can't figure if it'll be a heavy or a Fast attack. It might even be outside of the FOC.

Which of these sounds right or would you like to see?

I agree with the whole Vespid thing. Vespids are totally out of the question right now. They are very versatile and quick, but their poor WS, and their terrible armor save make them not worth having ((like all Kroot)). I enjoy having the shooty tactics, but some Ordnance weapons would do the Tau some good, or perhaps a Marker light that increases all weapons fired by an entire AP so the Seeker missles would have a bit more than a Chance of killing something.

They're all dirty cold-blooded space-communists if you ask me! Besides, their shiny, selfless "we love everyone for the Greater Good" vibe is so unfitting for the "lulz we're all badass jerks" future of 40k. GW needs to play up their cold, calculating, "join us or die, and probably still die anyway" Borg-y style. That's just me of course.

Hey! I REALLY enjoy playing the only actual good guy race in the entire damn Universe!