Thank you Maj Tom for accepting the invite to come over and look at the ideas floating around. Your input will be a nice additional sounding board. The early stuff was just top of the head brainstorming coming from the position of how to accomplish the most in a limited number of broad changes.

You will find that later in the thread I modified my overall stance as I saw what was starting to come out about the IG. I realised that the Tau are going to need and probably get an extensive rework and that I was going to need to refine my ideas. There are still some things that I am flip-flopping on because I see the Tau going in a certain direction and there are several ways to accomplish these ends but for the most part I'm really refining it down. I think when I'm done that it will be a matter of points tweeking and it will be a much more fun and diverse way to play the Tau in 5th ed.


Now to your replies on the early stuff:

1) I've changed a few things since p 5 on the special characters. I didn't really figure out what to do with them until I started writing. I think that I've got it in hand now. I think that I've acutally found a use for the Etherals. It's in the special army rules on this page.

2) I like your defining concepts about the special characters. I will say though that I'm probably going too shock you with the goodness that Farsight is gonna get. Go ahead, ask me.

3)Even though you like both the Ion Cannon rending and the command node I've changed them both to make them more Tau-like instead of Imperium copies. I, also, made them more balanced.

4)I've ditched the ethereal/warlock upgrade idea. You're dead on. I will take this moment to say that the ethereals will play a much more interesting and vital role in this fan-dex. They will be the glue that holds the multi-cultural collage together.

5)Again on the next two you were dead on. I changed my position later. I'm now to just having 1 stealth squad with the sniperdrones in fast attack or xv-88s with them as a heavy choice. But definitely no rail rifles on the suits themselves.

6)I've further refined the drone ideas. Hope you enjoy them. May post some of the stuff soon.

7)Nice to see we are of the same mind on the carbines. Later in the thread you'll see some different ideas but now that I'm writing balance is suggesting that I back away from some of the later over-powered weapon ideas. When you get to them don't worry.

8)Drones as troops is a definite in this fan-dex. I'm trying for some simplification in their situation.

9)MarkerLights have turned out somewhat different than anything I Mentioned in thread. Its the same yet different kinda thing. Don't worry, I now see why the army was written the way it was for 4th ed. Markers very much have a redefining effect on the army.

10)Seekers are somewhere in between my original idea and what they are currently in the dex.

11)I like your take on the kroot but I'm not quite going that far with their armour. Instead I'll be bringing in some of the Kroot Merc list.

12)This'll change your mind on the Vespids. Squad size 5 stingwings and 1 Strain Leader. I'm putting the BLAST into nuetron blaster.Also, Stingwings use a paralytic sting in the first round of combat. They always wound on a 4+. Strain Lead wounds on a 2+.( Rolls to wound of a 6 ignores armor saves? Your take on this last appreciated)

13)Glad you like the Pirahnas and D-fish ideas. They have stayed pretty much the same.

14)Broadsides I'm still tweeking. They are getting the relentless rule. Just not sure if it will be leader based or just an integrated thing.

15)When you get to see the New hammerhead rules and options I hope you will be pleased. I can tell you that the HH Railgun is getting 2 more types of rounds and a viable and sick secondary weapons system. It comes from merging the Smart miss system and miss pods. LOS shot is still Range 36"Str 7 ap 4 assault 2. The alternate fire mode is no los needed and now has range 24" str 4 ap 5 assault 2 blast,(Maybe ignores cover?, What do you think?). As of right now these shots are twin linked on the Tank and broadsides but could just become twin systems firing double the number of shots.



As to your philosophical overview. I like it and willbe using some of it to help me on some of the sticking points where I may feel that I going either too far or not far enough.

Again, Thanks and please join in with your 5th ed wishes.

Krellnus wrote:At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

@Che-Vito Well gee I am freaking sorry that I am trying to give focused and nova an idea of what everyone else is getting ok.

Krellnus wrote:

Krellnus wrote:At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

@Che-Vito Well gee I am freaking sorry that I am trying to give focused and nova an idea of what everyone else is getting ok.

I think we all just missed your intention (aka wasn't clear enough for me).

Points are something Tau need to figure out. Are we going to be an elietist army (ala expensive troops w/good stats and guns, small model count), middle of the road (good guns, decent stats, medium model count), or hord (aka xenos guard). I hope we stay in the middle category, myself. I don't want xenos guard and I dont think tau will ever be a Meq. However I think we all agree a generic points decrease on some things will come while others (or Dpods) will probably double in points.

@Krellnus-Thanks for the heads up about the IG and Storms. I already knew about the changes but your point hasn't been missed.

I've said that to look at just one new codex and planning the next based off of what they got is wrong but looking at a trend within the newer codices and then using the most relevant ones as a guideline can be very helpful..


Also, minor correction. Valk is 100 pts WITH weapons. they get a basic weapons loadout that is superior to the devifish. Then there is the vulture at 130 pts with 3 tl lascannons, a fast skimmer that has just as much Tank stopping power as a hammerhead at a cheaper price.

For comparison sake-The Hammerhead has 13 front armour, ap 1 weapon, no ability to transport, and costs at least 150 pts with railgun and the cheapest mandatory secondary weapons system.

The Vulture comes with front armour 12, 3 twin-linked lascannons, transport capacity of 12, can deploy troops when moving full speed, that full speed is Fast Skimmer, it can deepstrike or scout,and costs only 130 points going out the door with base weapons load-out.

This when combined with the new space marine land speeder is why my version of the pathfinders now get a SkyRay as a transport and can scout/outflank with it. This is a reaction not to one codex but looking at the trend and trying to update accordingly.

Tau will definitely see some point cost drops in the next codex.

To me, the bigger issue with Tau is:
1. How do markerlights work? The same or differently? Will they stay Heavy 1 (which right now, makes Pathfinders a static weapon unit that doesn't fit their fluff).
2. Will Tau keep some of their special wargear - in particular Target Locks for infantry, which lets them target multiple units - a big advantage for them.
3. What is the role of the Firewarrior? Right now, with the S5 AP5 shots that abound in the list due to Burst Cannons, there are other units that can fit the anti-infantry role as well or better than Firewarriors. So, what part do they play (other than hiding in a transport)? Right now, they're only good at anti-infantry, and in 40k, that's a bit of a liability, compared to other armies that can also fit some anti-tank or anti-heavy infantry into their troop selections. Frankly, I think FWs should be even cheaper due to the limited wargear they can take (as in, none).
4. Improve survivability, especially of the Firewarriors. They need a Leadership boost, either +1 Ld or a re-roll.

Did we ever talk about Vespids at all? I can't remember and don't feel like slogging through a good long thread for them.

Anyway, we all know vespids need a boost.

I was thinking that they should be able to deep strike, and their guns have an AP 3 flamer (perhaps just the strain leader?) and the other guns rend or something to give them a boost. I also know then need to be tougher but am not sure how, they are already T4 and I can't see them becoming T5, they have fleet so perhaps hit and run would help them? Perhaps armour 4?

I've got the fire warriors pretty much down now. It was a rank advance/wargear problem that I've finally solved. This when combined with the new markers rules makes them pretty good.

They aren't dropping in price by much but rather are being made better through an armywide synergy that is coming about from straightening out quirky rules and Fluff tweeks to support the changes(Sorry, Maj Tom. It was necessary because of the second codex fluff bungling that GW did.).

Casper, check item 12 on my reply to Maj Tom. top of this page.

Tell me if you like this change to the Vespids or not.

Looks fine to me. I'm still worried about thier survivability but by increasing their output that should help. Also gives tau a small blast maker which is something we lack. Actually now that I think about it, aren't we the only army that doesn't get one?

I've been reworking things since yesterday morning a fair bit; realised I needed to smooth the markerilght and loadout systems a bit: Battlesuits in particular were getting a little too imperium-like in the redundancy and number of available systems, most especially commanders. general work has been done for several days now but not having anywhere to put it has given me a chance to shine things up nicely, a little change here and there every day.

A few of the more or less set changes in my own version of the 'dex since Focusedfire was generous with his:

0) The markerlight system: Still getting polished a little, but effectively now functions as a combo system. Overall like my suggestion a few pages back.

1) Commander comes in three flavors:
-XV3 (the 22 with variable hardpoints) which has the stealth generator but slightly more limited choice of weaponry
-XV68 (Forgeworld 88): A Relentless (it comes with free A.S.S.) command broadside with full access to the Broadside weapon list
-XV8 we all know and love; the cheaper of the three, but capable of heavier weapons than the XV3

2) Ethereals got a price hike, but their reduced (more like eliminated) penalty, the addition of the fluff-described battle-rage instead of fall-back, and ability to count as scoring with a large enough retinue will make them attractive. Oh, and they also give a slight boost to kroot and vespid.

3) Battlesuit bodyguards use the base suit of their commander (25/88/crisis), only 'problem' being that the heavier commander stealth takes away their stealth rule (but compensates with big guns)

4) Special issue systems are something I'm reworking at this moment... I keep doing wiping the slate with it, but its gotten better.

5) Crisis have BS4, but paid for it. Most weapons however are a little cheaper.

6) Same with stealth suits, who gained the Stealth rule, and the burst cannon's range was upped anyways.

7) 3-drone sniper teams (spotters went wayside) can be purchased; one per stealth team, as a seperate detatchment. For great justice.

8) Pathfinders are elites and 15pt a model. Yeah, I know, that hurts, but given the new markerlight system, had to. Carbines and markerlights were both upgraded so they're still damn cheap.

9) Warriors now 9 points apiece, and carbine upgrade for them is +1/model. Now composed of mixed Gue-la and Shas'La, they can be bonded and led by a Shas'Ui, or a Sergeant with Pistol, CCW and photon grenades. Rapidfire range and pistol range are 15" for pulse now.

10) Gun Drones are 14 points each. And scoring. And may always regroup (though they break easy). Did I mention carbines had been upgraded? Squad now 4-10 strong.

11) Devilfish may now exchange 4 of their 12 carrying capacity for a "Field Support System": either a Heavy missile pod or a First-Generation Skyray system. Base cost 50 points, though loaded out it'll get expensive.

12) Kroot: Stealth and Move Through Cover USR. Shaper nowhere near as expensive (and included in the unit cost). Hounds 5pt each, krootox 30pt each, gets its second shot at 24"

13) Tetra/Piranha form a single unified squadron (or you can seperate them. I mean, its a vehicle squadron. pick whatever) in Fast Attack. A little cheaper, but the whole squadron, given its less resilient than most actual jetbike squads... Counts as a SINGLE KP. Should make for vicious tank-hunters, though I still don't actually like them myself (but never really did though the tetra's nice). But hey, its not for me.

14) Remora mount a pair of ion cluster cannons (think heavy 1 Blast S4 AP3) and have a jetpack-style move.

15) Vespid I didn't modify nearly as much: Notable though is that their 5+Sv now explicitly allows rolls against AP5, the claws are rending, and the neutron blaster's gained 3 inches of range. They're also a little cheaper. just a bit.

16) Broadsides start slow&purposeful (A.S.S. replaces slow&purposeful with relentless; I was careful to make sure to specify that part or else they'd still be slow!), and at their cheapest form a significantly nastier firestorm suit. The 'Vre has BS4. Railguns got heavy 2'd.

17) Sniper drones are being reworked into 'support drones', with 2 (maybe a third) system packages: whole squadron must be identical though.

18) Hammerhead Ion Cannon is now variable fire: S6 AP3 Heavy 4, S8 AP 3 Heavy 3, S8 AP2 EMP (but can't penetrate, only glance)

19) The Hammerhead Railcannon now has 'blowthrough': on wound, d6: 4+ = additional wound (must be same model unless its a single wound model; so technically it MAY create awesomely fun situations like busting through a termie's chest harmlessly, taking off the head of his buddy behind him). Similarly, on a glance or pen: d6: 4+ = extra glance (just once in both cases, not "keep rolling")

20) EMP are glance only now but way more prolific. Its not just grenades anymore.

21) Hammerhead primary system: Gravitic Launcher. Aka 'Skyray mkII'. 8 ammo, can fire 2/round either Direct or using Swarm System. Unlimited range: it fires seekers! However it can only fire 2 missiles per round.

22) swarm system is part of the markerlight network. Extra launches per spent counter is all. Not all vehicles have it.
23) Seekers come in three fruit flavors. Standard (now with small blast; doesn't scatter), Haywire (2 emp rolls), and cluster (submunition using 2 flamer templates instead of large blast)

24) Ooooh, Barracuda

As with all things, I think the best thing to get is perspective. What I mean is we need to step back, and think about what it means to be Tau. Go from the original ideals they seem to be based on. The novel Fire Warrior, by Simon Spurrier, is, I feel, an excellent insight into Tau philosophy and nature, and, indeed, Human philosophy and nature. Another thing to think about is logistics. The Tau are very efficient, are not at all vainglorious, nor are they particularly proud as individuals. They place heavy reliance on technology, and have advanced technology, which they combine with self-less, but rational mind you, devotion to the Greater Good. This effects in surgical accuracy in everything from conducting a war to eating soup( ). They take no risks where there is nothing to be gained, and even then, they make sure it is worth it. Thus they would not have Juggernaught-ical units, but instead the entire army would be wraith-like. Appearing one place, firing, then dissolving in the wake of a counter-strike. Their poor leadership, I think, is based on their willingness not only to die for the Greater Good, but also to live for it. In essence, retreating today so they can regroup and do a better job of defending the Empire, having learned a new lesson.

Having said this, I will be posting a Fan-dex A La M. Tom

Where exactly can I get this fan-codex?

Riiiight here! Stay tuned for more.

(its not actually up yet, but will be on this thread.)

Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Liquidwulfe wrote:Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

They would still suck as an HTH unit Low WS, S, #A all hurt them powerweapon on the leader or not. Also its pretty much a universal idea that powerweapons should not be too easily present in the Tau list. Powerweapons are akin to the cutting edge of HTH technology. Not something the Tau spend time focusing on. The flamer template (maybe one in 4 models upgraded) allows them to be viable against all comers be it MEQ to horde. You want to make a unit attractive, you want to sell models? Make it usefull in any list, and give it just enough of a powerboost where people start considering taking two units of them.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

With the nerfing of the skimmer rules all our vehicles are moderate to grossly over priced. Especially when you compare somewhat equal vehicles in other codexs.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Which is why they need a massive overhaul. They went from a 5-7 (Mech, Hybrid Mech, Gunline, VP Denial, Farsight) different builds to two (Mech and Farsight).

OK, getting really frustrated with Dakka eating my long posts when alomost done.

Was responding to Novas Sneak peek with one of my own. After looking at Nova's it is clear that we are beging to really diverge on how are Fan-dex's are being made. I'm going to now illustrate these difference but only after this qualifier.

Once I began to write this it quickly became apparent that some of my firmly held positions earlier in the thread were now, at best, in question. Things like BS4 or T 4 Fire warriors quickly went to the wayside. With the idea of ditching twin-linking for just twin guns becoming an ever increasly overpowered question mark. I found that with New Army special rules, reworking the Markerlights, smoothing out the Rank advancement curve, and a little unit tweeking or reshuffling that the Tau are becoming a powerhouse that I'm really having to work to keep from becoming too strong.

As I get ever closer to completion I'm growing more excited that this would be a fun flexible army to play that still fits the fluff and with just a bit of points tweeking will be fairly balanced.



Now on to the Fan-dex sneek peek so you can compare with Nova's:

First, The army special rules you seemed to like. Most of you liked the Guerrilla Tactics(I know, needs a better name)Rule. You also didn't seem to mind my giving the Ethereals a purpose by requiring them as one of the HQs in games where alien auxilla would be used. I think most also liked the Tau Targeter/Optics rule that allows any unit equipped with Tau Targeterd/optics(I'm having trouble deciding which name is more fitting) to make use of the benefits/bonuses from markerlight hits/counters.

Second, Some of you had problems with the Gue 'Vesa alliance. The main sticking point seemed to be the LRBT. Well' I listened, Thought it over and came to feel that you guys were right....... about the LRBTs. So consider them now gone and instead the Gue'Vesa get the Valkeries/Vendettas. It seemed more fitting that the Gue'Vesa would adapt there way of warfare to better match the Tau's.

Third, The sneek peeks. What I'm going to give you in the immediately following post are some of the defining points of my Fan-dex. These will be for you to look over and question/comment on. If it gets to be too much I'll ask for people to PM me their questions or arguments in an effort to keep from derailing the thread.

this will take a bit...............

Ok, the high points

1)Markerlights are now all networked, though they will be still called markerlights for simplicity's sake.

Markerlights will benefit any unit that has Tau Optics/Targeters. The markerlight is an infantry portable device that projects a simple beam upon an enemy target/unit. This beam is used to guide and improve the accuracy of Tau Optics/Targeter equipped models when attempting to shoot or otherwise affect the marked unit. The markerlight is fired by the model as if it is a ranged weapon with the following profile: Range 24" Str n/a AP n/a Type assault 1*
*Note- No saves may be made against markerlight hits for the fact that there are no wounds caused.
After firing you place counters for each markerlight hit and also take note of the total number of hits. This is because some markerlight bonuses are cumulative depending upon how many markerlight hits scored upon the targeted unit. These cumulative bonuses may be only used against the unit that these hits were scored upon. Some of the counters can be used to give an army wide bonus while other will be weapon or target specific. The differences will be stated below:


A)Spend one counter and any Tau Targeter equipped unit firing at the marked unit gains +1 BS. The player may only spend one such counter a turn on the marked unit and is thus limited to a maximun bonus of +1. This may be combined with the cover reduction bonus given in line B)

B)Spend one counter and the marked units cover is reduced by -1 for each markerlight hit scored in that shooting phase. The effect lasts until the end of the owning Tau players shooting phase and benefits any model equipped to make use of the markerlight hits. Only one cover reduction counter may be used upon a marked unit in a single turn of shooting.

C)One counter maybe used to fire a seeker missle at BS 5. This shot may benefit from the cover reduction bonus given in line B)

D)One counter may be used to reduce the drift of Blast and Large Blast weapons by -1 for every markerlight hit scored upon the targeted unit. The owning Tau player may expend more than one of the drift reduction counters a turn for a cumulative effect. This shot may benefit from the cover reduction bonus stated in line B)

E)The Tau player may expend one counter to lower the Leadership of the marked squad by -1 for every markerlight hit scored upon that unit in the Tau players shooting phase. The Tau player may expend more than one of the leadership counters for a cumulative effect.


Note: Except when being combined with cover reduction as indicated in their entries, marker counters do not combine different effects. This means that the player may not use line A) to increase the bonuses of line C) or D).



Yes marker lights are going to become a little more expensive.


2)Commanders are similar to Novas but will have different stats. Shas'els are the generic commanders now and Shas'Os are the big Heros(Shadowsun/Farsight/Focusedfire). Go ahead, cry foul, you put this much effort into something I think an honourable mention isn't too much to ask . Doing this allowed for me to rework the skills/rank track to make more sense and to match the new improved profiles. I'll clarify in the next entry.

3)Tau Battlesuits through steadily improved technology now offers better armour protection that absorbs impacts to the point of making a warrior tougher to wound or kill. The suits, also, now include several items that used to be seperate support systems but are now stangerd issue and fully integrated into the Tau Empires Military Forces. These items are:

A)Targeting arrays are now standard integrated components in battlesuits. This is why an infantry shas'ui is BS3 and a battlesuit shas'ui is now BS4.

B)All Battlesuit Shas'ui are now required to take HW drone contoller implants so they might better meet the mission needs more quickly as they arise.

C)XV-88 Broadsides are now all equipped with Advanced Stabilization Systems.

The battlesuit profiles I will post later. My wife needs us time. Will tell you to start with T4 stealthsuits and goes to T4(5) Crisis and broadsides.

So next up after battlesuit reference sheet will be drones.

Later.

I had two ideas as I scanned this thread. First, I appologise if someone has suggested something similar. It's a long thread and after a while I did start scanning. Secondly...I have no idea how much use these ideas are, but what the hell, right?

First of all I was wondering if a way to have Tau locked in combat to have a way of breaking off without getting there asses kicked might not be a good idea. Hit and Run might be good but I was thinking, rather than striking back (a usually useless trick) the Tau could do it at there initative. Dedicated assault units would still get there pound of flesh but Tau could escape before power fist units killed off what was left. Maybe a leadership test would be required, or the enemy can try a limited sweeping advance or something. It seems logical that Tau, prefering not to fight close combat, would learn to break off from a combat and move into a firing position.

Second, I'm thinking that as an upgrade to Fire Warrior squads...a Ethreal Apprentice. To govern a cast they must first understand it...etc, etc. So they spend some time with the Fire Warriors. The Fire Warriors, determined not to let the Ethereal in there charge die, get + 1 to there ballistic skill and stubborn. Because they can only inspire, and don't have an Inspiring Presence, the benefits would only be for that squad.

Thoughts?

Jon Garrett wrote:
First of all I was wondering if a way to have Tau locked in combat to have a way of breaking off without getting there asses kicked might not be a good idea. Hit and Run might be good but I was thinking, rather than striking back (a usually useless trick) the Tau could do it at there initative. Dedicated assault units would still get there pound of flesh but Tau could escape before power fist units killed off what was left. Maybe a leadership test would be required, or the enemy can try a limited sweeping advance or something. It seems logical that Tau, prefering not to fight close combat, would learn to break off from a combat and move into a firing position.

Second, I'm thinking that as an upgrade to Fire Warrior squads...a Ethreal Apprentice. To govern a cast they must first understand it...etc, etc. So they spend some time with the Fire Warriors. The Fire Warriors, determined not to let the Ethereal in there charge die, get + 1 to there ballistic skill and stubborn. Because they can only inspire, and don't have an Inspiring Presence, the benefits would only be for that squad.

Well tau lack good Initative, so Hit and Run wont work well for them, perhaps on suits but regular FW would need something different, perhaps a change to photon grenades (as well is denying that mob of 20 oks 1 attack really going to matter?).

Ethreal Apprentice seems like a warlock to me...but with a few differences. I would flesh this out abit more. Does the Ethreal get any wargear options if so what?

Always glad to see some fresh ideas.

Jayden63 wrote:

Liquidwulfe wrote:Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

They would still suck as an HTH unit Low WS, S, #A all hurt them powerweapon on the leader or not. Also its pretty much a universal idea that powerweapons should not be too easily present in the Tau list. Powerweapons are akin to the cutting edge of HTH technology. Not something the Tau spend time focusing on. The flamer template (maybe one in 4 models upgraded) allows them to be viable against all comers be it MEQ to horde. You want to make a unit attractive, you want to sell models? Make it usefull in any list, and give it just enough of a powerboost where people start considering taking two units of them.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

With the nerfing of the skimmer rules all our vehicles are moderate to grossly over priced. Especially when you compare somewhat equal vehicles in other codexs.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Which is why they need a massive overhaul. They went from a 5-7 (Mech, Hybrid Mech, Gunline, VP Denial, Farsight) different builds to two (Mech and Farsight).

Basically hit the nail on the head. I would add the following though.

Our best vehicle upgrade will be going up in price so we will need more than a 10 point drop to the Fish, perhaps not making us pay for the drones or the basic wepon layout would help.

Tau need more builds then the gimped mech and farseight lists. Period, I personally don't like FoF (as its too expensive for me to convert) or Farseight for that matter (same reason), a regualr semi-mech or footslogging tau list needs to be viable again.

Final point, a generic well written rules section (by that I mean easy to understand) would be nice. No more of this you cant use A.S.S. because you bought drones for your sergent...or other mind blowing tau rules (you all know which ones I mean).

Hey Casper, Thanks for the positive feedback on the Vespids.

There is a lot of difference between what I'm writing down now and what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. I'm, now, doing a lot of quick mathhammering to make sure these new ideas don't become overpowered when combined with the markerlights and other wargear.

Doing this while trying to fit with the fluff and my personal take that Tau don't like to use weapons thar cause a lot of collateral damage is challenging. I'm giving the Tau Bast markers only when there is something that mitigates this collateral damage. Things like Nuetron Blasts that only kill living beings, Warheads that use the Fragmentation Grenades bomblets with the integral AI that only detonate when in proximity of the enemy, and area effect EMP blasts that take out enemy vehicles.

I've left the flamer alone because it is needed and has a controllable and limited amount of collateral damage and the Basic Rail gun sub-muntion is the same but the AI is now in the fluff to to make it ignore cover and to fit with this concept that I have.

I'm getting back to the sneek peek now.

PS-I'll try to eliminate those wording issues to the best of my ability.

I just wanted to chime in on your markerlight system: what you describe is more or less what I originally wanted to go for, but I ran into a problem: "exactly which counters got used for what". I realised that as the turn goes by, especially with multiple units adding multiple markerlights, it was turning into a jumbled memory mess; one very easily additive or subtractive by one player or the other.

This is what caused me to go for the current combo system.

If you've found a way to keep the thing from getting too akward in long turns (imagine apocalypse or even a 3000pt battle for example) without forcing players to develop "their little tricks" (we do have to make sure it doesn't get too abusable/complex) I'd love to hear it; because that would likely make your system the better of the two for purposes of ease of balance and fun factor.

oh; before I forget: my split for markerlight/networked is that the network ones are now stacked with additional processing power, and can be used, instead of firing, to gain a bonus. Thus models with a networked markerlight can get two markerlight effects instead of the one granted by the previous unit to mark that target (this makes target-locks very worth taking). Of course since its not being used to fire you won't grant a bonus to the next guy... still, you can always just fire markerlights again or spend the things on seekers.

Seekers are end of shooting phase. Remove counters (if the launcher's got a swarm system you can place two seekers per counter removed!) and just put a seeker missile down next to the target (under this I'd color'em for the effect, keeps it simple). This is probably gonna be used when you've got a LOT to shoot at and down counters from 4 to 3 since the next group's firing a markerlight at it too.
Seekers hit at the END of the shooting phase, all seekers hit (its still shooting for morale and all, its just the last thing you do before going to assault). This adds a little bad to the seekers; all of a sudden you can't really guarantee it'll finish the job.

But at the same time seekers themselves got boosted a bit, enough that its worth tossing one, maybe two counters at a squad you're not specifically trying to destroy that turn. I figure it makes sense they'd take a few seconds to get there.

You can instead spend TWO counters for an immediate hit, which is good if you're trying to EMP off some void shield. But that's two markerlight hits (though for 2 immediate hits if you've, say, a grav launcher in the army). Gravitic launchers can fire seekers direct, and instant, as a weapon. But they need line of sight, and there's only 8 shots on the vehicle.

OK, picking up where I left off.......


4) My Tau reference sheet looks like this:


Stats........WS BS S T W I A LD SV

Shas'El
XV-8 Crisis- 3 5 5 4 3 3 3 10 3+
Shas'Vre
XV-8 Crisis- 3 5 5 4 2 3 2 9 3+
Shas'Ui
XV-8 Crisis- 2 4 5 4 2 3 2 8 3+
Shas'El
Stealthsuits- 3 5 4 3 2 3 3 10 3+
Shas'Vre
Stealthsuits- 3 5 4 3 1 3 2 9 3+
Shas'Ui
Stealthsuits- 2 4 4 3 1 3 2 8 3+
Shas'El
Broadsides- 3 5 5 4(5) 3 3 3 10 2+
Shas'Vre
Broadsides- 3 5 5 4(5) 2 3 2 9 2+
Sha'Ui
Broadsides- 2 4 5 4(5) 2 3 2 8 2+
Shas'Ui
Fire Warrior- 2 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 4+
Shas'La
Fire Warrior- 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 7 4+


Ethereal(HQ)- 4 4 3 3 2 3 3 10 4+

Vespid
Dominatrix- 4 4 3 5 2 5 2 10 4+

Strain Leader- 3 3 3 5 2 5 1 9 4+

Stingwings- 3 3 3 4 2 5 1 6 4+

Kroot
Master Shaper- 5 4 4 3 3 4 2 * 5+

Kroot Shaper- 5 3 4 3 2 3 2 * 6+

Kroot Kindred- 4 3 4 3 1 3 1 * 6+

Kroot Hounds- 4 - 4 3 1 5 2 * 6+

Kroot Ox's- 4 - 6 4 3 3 3 * 5+

Great Gnarlok- 4 - 10 6 4 3 3 * 5+

*Back to buying kroot mercenary loyalty


5)Drones and their controllers. In order to buy or use drones a model must be equipped with a drone controller. A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances. Drones are now scoring units when independant and the same as their owning model when under the command of a drone controller.

Will finish on this later. Duties call IRL.


Edited to correct toughness

@Nova- I limited it with the only one counter per turn per marked unit clause in the needed entries.

I felt this was simpler. I'm still tweeking the seekers. will let you know when I'm comfortable with them.

Later

Well, I've played two games with 5E Tau now... one draw and one win not too bad, right?

Especially with strategies like ninja tau (although I have a gunline army) it seems like they're pretty good to me!

I'll update more after I've played more, obviously but from a rookie standpoint, they don't seem bad, just fragile and needing a pretty specific strategy to win.

I wouldn't want the pendulum to swing too far the other way and have them become overpowered! It's nice to have the challenge... even if it means I have to run my guys away from the enemy like little girlie men sometimes...

5th edition hit many armies the same way: if you played against one who still lacks its 5th edition codex, its natural you'd be no worse off.

Fight against the new Imperial Guard however, and you realise they're averaging two more LRBTs than they used to. With battlecannons that can fire on the move. Or some manticores. And the HWS got a little cheaper, especially the mortars. most seem to have a good 200 some points they didn't use to have just by converting army costs to the new copy stores like to brag around.

In any case the entire codex needed a rewrite, if nothing else because of serious editing holes and grammatical confusion... But overall I'm working my version to account for 5th edition, NOT 4th (5th ed codices aren't really balanced to 4th, what with it being new rules and all).

So don't take our ideas as being "for use against dark eldar", but rather "for use against the other 5th eds that come out".

note: I'm not saying 'its impossible'. I'm just saying codex creep is there, and we're working so as to take it into account.

Here is my idea for psychic support for the Tau and reasoning behind it.

(note this assumes commanders are still +1 so the Naascar cannot lead an army by his lonesome.)

HQ -
Naascar psychic (1) 80 Pts.
WS 3 BS 3 S3 T4 W3 I4 A1 LD10 SV 4+/5+(I)

Weapons:
Pulse pistol (S5 AP5 12" range pistol)
CCW

Psychic Powers:
Naascar have access to all of the following psychic powers.

Hunting grounds - Fluff: The Naascar summons dozens of the small yet horrible creatures enhabiting the warp to materialize onto the battlefield and attack his enemies.
Effect: Cast at the beginning of your opponents turn. Any enemy unit that makes any form of movement within 18" of the Naascar model is treated as if moving through dangerous terrain.

Replay - Fluff: The Naascar uses the endless swirling of time present into the warp to return one model to a previous moment in time. Effect: During the Tau players shooting phase, nominate one friendly model within LOS of the Naascar that has already fired this phase. That model may shoot again, but may not designate a new target from the one they previously fired at.

Distortions of the Warp - Fluff: The Naascar calls forth images of the past, present, and future and displays them on the battlefield leaving echos of the past and future to confuse his enemies. Effect: Cast at the beginning of the enemies shooting phase. Regardless of a models BS skill any Tau unit within 18" of the Naascar can only be hit on a 5+ in this shooting phase.

Control Zone - Fluff: The Naascar takes absolute control over the warp in the area around him. He controls what can and cannot enter the area of effect from the warp. Effect: Cast at the beginning of the Tau players turn. Until the beginning of the Tau players next turn any attempts at using a psychic power within 24" of the Nascaar fail (after testing for POTW) on a 2+. Deamons may only be summoned within this area of effect on a 6+ (deamons failed at being summoned in this way go back into reserves).


My reasoning:
This alien comes from places deep inside the warp, they have left the warp for whatever reason and now some of them have embraced the Tau's sense of greater good. The Tau have realized that they need support of such creatures as they have found that the Warp and those who can control parts of it are having their marry way against them.

Anway, the character points is roughly based off of an Eldar Farseer with fortune and guide. I greatly lowered his WS, BS, and Init. to cull his HTH abilities and allow room for the extra powers.

The powers, the only one I think I really have to defend is Control Zone. Its pretty much just a psychic hood where it assumes he always rolls a 6 during the contest. It sounds strong until you realize, it uses up his one psychic power for his turn, and in fact can be hooded itself. I made it multi usefull to help stop deamon rushes as well. Also please note that it didn't say it was limited to enemy psychers only, so if he wants to cast a power on his opponents turn he too will have to test.

I don't know how I feel about a Tau race that uses the warp... Also they are called Naascar, Nas-car or Nuh-scar?

Not a huge fan of the powers either.

I would like to see the Barghesi, I see em as an Elite or Heavy support in groups of 3-6 with stats close too Terminators but this is wishful thinking.

But if anything Tau will get Demiurg the race that gave the Tau Ion Cannon technology. Demiurg are an alien race of squat semi-humanoids, who share many traits with the typical fantasy dwarf stereotype: they are avid miners, expert traders, and, in some ways, further technologically advanced than humans. They also bear a particular hatred for goblinoids (Orks).

Cause people are screaming over the squats and this race is already with the Tau as of Battlefleet Gothic.

focusedfire wrote:
5)Drones and their controllers. In order to buy or use drones a model must be equipped with a drone controller. A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances. Drones are now scoring units when independant and the same as their owning model when under the command of a drone controller.

I would change the wording to:
A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances.
change to
A Drone controller allows any model equipped with one to buy 0-2 Shield/Gun/Markerlight/Flamer(?) Drones in any combination. This effect is cumulative.
just a suggestion


And i will not be releasing any planned sneak-peaks, due to the fact that im just not that organized. I Am however likely to interject aspects of it into conversation prior to release. (and in all likelyhood afterwards too )

Thanks for the C&C Maj Tom. I was hurrying and also haven't gotten to the final editing point yet.


OK, Back to where I left off.

5)Drone Controllers- All Shas'ui are required to take Hard-wired Drone controllers in order to progress along the Fire Caste rank track. The drone controller allows any model equipped with one to buy 0-2 drone types as allowed per their unit entry in the army list. The drones must maintain 2" coherency with the other drones under the command of the controller and at least one must be within 2" of the controlling model.

The Drone controller allows a model to take control of up to 2 additional drones in the following circumstances:

A) The Fire Warrior team takes a devilfish when it has already bought 2 drones. The devilfish comes equipped standard with 2 gundrones that are automatically joined to the squad. These additional drones embark and disembark at the same time as the unit. The Fire Warrior Shas'Ui can determine which drones under his control embark and ride in the drone recesses on the devilfish.

(Think about the possibilities of this for a moment.......then let the slow smile start.)

B)If a battlesuit, infantry, or allied model with drones becomes a casualty then one of his teamates can assume control of the orphaned drones if they also posses a controller. This includes the drones of Independent characters.

C)An Independent Character may commandeer additional drones when leaving a unit he has previously joined. The Independent character is still limited to a maximum of 4 drones when leaving the squad and he has to take any surviving drones that he bought originally.


6)Drones- Drones have a networkable AI that allows them to link-up and form independent squads capable of prolonged operation with any orders from a controller. The AI is so advanced that the Tau veiw the drones as living members within their Empire.

The networked AI is capable of recieving and executing orders on the battlefield without any need for a controlling model. Because of this, the independent gundrone squads have now become troops in the Tau armies and count as scoring units.

Some Drones are allowed to be loaded into the vehicle front weapon recesses. These drones may fire as part of the vehicle using their own BS but, this makes them subject to weapon destroyed results.

Drone special rules:
Programming: Drones are programmed to accomplish their mission and as machines are incapable of fear. To represent this independent drone squads have the universal rule for stubborn. The drones would be fearless but that exceptionally violent weapons bursts, blast, barrages, or ordinance can overload their systems and force a fast reboot which in effect pins them. Any ranged weapon with pinning listed in its profile or as part of its base rule can force pinning checks upon a drone squadron.

Machines: The drones Machine intelligence is unaffected by Psychic based attacks that would affect their leadership or force a pinning check.()

Jump infantry(Jet-pack)

Drones under the command of a model with a drone controller become the same unit type and leadership as the controlling model. This is represented by the drones loosing their special rules but automatically gaining all of the secial rules of the squad they are bought for.

Example:Gun Drones would lose stubborn and machines when joining a stealth unit but gain the stealth and infiltrate ability.

These mixed units follow the normal wound allocation rules.


7)Drone Types-The following are the general profiles and special rules for the various types of drones.


A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T 4 W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv3+

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Unit Protection-All models, in the same unit, within 2" of the drones recieve a 5+ Inv save. This save is increased by +1 for each additional shield drone in the unit. The max invulnerable save allowed is 3+.


B)Gun Drones- WS2 BS2 S3 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD* Sv 4+

Equipment: Two pulse carbines twin-linked

Unit type: If independent Jump Infantry(Jet-Pack), If under command of a drone controller then same unit type as the controlling models.

Options: Up to Two models may upgrade their weapons to flamers or fusion blasters for 10 points each. No mixing the weapon types. If you upgrade two gundrones then they either take two flamers or two fusion blasters


C) Markers Drones are pretty much the same except that they are now Toughness 4 and follow the new rules for markerlights. They may also be loaded into the drone recesses of a vehicle.

D) Sniper Drones have the following profile: WS2 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld X Sv4+ Sniper Drones are extremely limited. Only one Stealthsuit squad can take them in an army.



Gotta go now. After looking at this I think I'm going to revert the battlesuits back to their original toughness stats.


Tell me what you think so far.


Edited for noted corrections on following page.
Ammended drone pinning rule
Ammended the Shield drone Toughness and Sv profiles
Corrected all drones to the new Toughness 4 profile

I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.


Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

@Da Big-Its not Tactical genius. It is a bare board.

No cover, bad for Orks but good fot Tau.


Diagonal edge to edge unobstructed veiw, Bad for trukks but good for railguns.


Now don't get us wrong. I'm still winning. I'm also having a lot more fun now that I've switched to Ninja Tau.

Its just that outside of Ninja Tau the Tau army playstyle is very limited and boring.

Combine that with a wargear section with very poor wording and you have my reasons for attempting to write the Fan-dex.

Also it is fun to wish-list sometimes. So read through and just play with the possibilities of some of the ideas.

Da Big Warboss wrote:I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.

Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

Don't take this the wrong way, but the Orks seriously screwed up on turn 3. Instead of the bikers shooting the firewarriors, they should have multi assaulted the firewarriors in front, the pathfinders to the side, and the crisis suits. (your pics show that they would have had the room) The results would have been terminal for the Tau. All three of units would have either died, or been broken because of the massive LD penalties that they all would have had to take, and possilby massacured in the sweeping advance. The Nobs probably would have been fine and there would have been a lot less guns around for them to get shot up with last turn. Those nobs have 5 attacks on the charge. Thats 25 attacks that all hit on 3s and wound on 2s. Thats roughly 16 hits, 13-14 wounds and about 7 confirmed dead things. If any of the nobs had power claws its even worse. Striking back the Tau would have had 15 attacks, that hit on 4s and wound on 6s. Thats 7 hits, barely 1 wound before the orks make any saves. Tau loose combat. Combat modifier is at least -12 for each of the three squads, if your not rolling snake-eyes they are running. Nobs at base init 3 vs Tau 2 have a 66% of massacring each unit as they run.

My own experiences with Tau in 5th ed have been like that. We get chased off of objectives far too easily, and cover saves really put a dent in what little low AP weapons we do have. Multi assaults destroy us when figuring in our HTH patheticness and crappy LD.

Jayden63 wrote:

Da Big Warboss wrote:I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.

Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

Don't take this the wrong way, but the Orks seriously screwed up on turn 3. Instead of the bikers shooting the firewarriors, they should have multi assaulted the firewarriors in front, the pathfinders to the side, and the crisis suits. (your pics show that they would have had the room) The results would have been terminal for the Tau. All three of units would have either died, or been broken because of the massive LD penalties that they all would have had to take, and possilby massacured in the sweeping advance. The Nobs probably would have been fine and there would have been a lot less guns around for them to get shot up with last turn. Those nobs have 5 attacks on the charge. Thats 25 attacks that all hit on 3s and wound on 2s. Thats roughly 16 hits, 13-14 wounds and about 7 confirmed dead things. If any of the nobs had power claws its even worse. Striking back the Tau would have had 15 attacks, that hit on 4s and wound on 6s. Thats 7 hits, barely 1 wound before the orks make any saves. Tau loose combat. Combat modifier is at least -12 for each of the three squads, if your not rolling snake-eyes they are running. Nobs at base init 3 vs Tau 2 have a 66% of massacring each unit as they run.

My own experiences with Tau in 5th ed have been like that. We get chased off of objectives far too easily, and cover saves really put a dent in what little low AP weapons we do have. Multi assaults destroy us when figuring in our HTH patheticness and crappy LD.

Your right about the multi-assault. I have not done many multi-assaults and find working them out a lot of trouble.....of course i only had a few warbikes to deal with, but it does seem complicated sometime in larger games. I have always wondered how in the world you work out the Green Tide in some games. Anyhow thanks for the information and your right about the Tau have some serious weaknesses in CC.

@Focusedfire: Seems we went with similar ideas but diverging methods on the drones. Definitely quite different on Devilfish... I'd scream 'abuse' at your drone-recess selection system but then I remember Nob bikers, Master of Ordnance scatter-eliminating mortar ranging shots, and quickly remember that's not a big deal at all.

I've kept drones as semi-intelligent: Viewed and treated as favored/loved pets by their units. They're slightly more expendable because its easier to fix a hole through a frisbee than a hole through a chest. I went the exact opposite way on their morale: They can't be pinned, but have enough self-preservation to bug out for a moment. They may always attempt to regroup though. Sniper drones are programmed to ALWAYS run from combat even if they win (though can't be swept if they didn't lose).

I'd completely forgotten about psychic powers though. If you don't mind, I'll use that idea of yours on the subject. makes sense, I'm just not used to dealing with psykers (even my occasional eldar opponent barely uses them) and never even gave the subject a thought.

Sniper drones in my case are actually more common: 2 squads may be taken per army (they dropped the spotter so 4/squad instead) as a heavy support choice, and one 2-strong detatchment can be taken PER stealth suit choice in an army. They're BS4 now however, and effectively 30 points apiece. I figure the Tau would take to the whole sniping idea VERY well, even if its a little overdone, especially when one considers the nasty angles and positions the floaty buggers could do (and how patient a drone might be compared to, say, a ratling). Sniper drones and pathfinders (still a bad deal mind you) can equip the things; its still not available to suits. I'm considering modifying the pathfinders sniper option for a pulse weapon of some sort instead. Rails were downed to S5 however anyways.

I'd been ripping my hair out trying to find a niche to actually PUT the heavy drones in. No matter what I did, they just were either redundant, not worth taking, or too cheap and potentially overpowered; and most of this just from switching the where and the cost. So I eventually gave up, and made them HQ Battle Drones: T5 multiwound 'detachments' an army can at most take two of. Built to withstand the... rigors... of early battlesuit system testing, they're instead fielded with spare Broadside secondary weapons in the field.

A crisis suit will technically field more firepower, and depending on the incoming fire may be more or less resilient, but I do believe I've made these jetbikes (yup) a pretty good deal.

(So any word on how/where to put this stuff up? I can't really polish it more till I get more input lest I rub a hole through the thing by this point)

*edit: 30 points. 2.6 would be kinda CHEAP now wouldn't it.

Sniper drones were a poor implementation. Imagine making a squad of Marine Scouts or Ratlings a heavy support slot. Then make sure they only have three shots that turn.

*highlights own fan-dex....DELETE* Looks like i wont be needing to make this, WOOT to Focused-fire, iloveitiloveitiloveit!
Some more C&C on the drones tho,

focusedfire wrote:
6)Drones- Drones have a networkable AI that allows them to link-up and form independent squads capable of prolonged operation with any orders from a controller. The AI is so advanced that the Tau veiw the drones as living members within their Empire.

The networked AI is capable of recieving and executing orders on the battlefield without any need for a controlling model. Because of this, the independent gundrone squads have now become troops in the Tau armies and count as scoring units.

Instead of living members, i like nova's idea of Favorite pets, for the same reasons as he. The difference is the Fio caste can mend a nerfed drone back to optimal performance, and drones don't have psycological needs/desires/depth. Thus, those hooved philosoraptors would'nt consider them 'alive'. (IMO!)

focusedfire wrote:
Drone special rules:
Stubborn: Drones follow the universal rule for stubborn. The drones would be fearless but that exceptionally violent weapons bursts, blast, barrages, or ordinance can overload their systems and force a fast reboot which in effect pins them.

focusedfire wrote:
A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T * W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv*

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Unit Protection-All models, in the same unit, within 2" of the drones recieve a 5+ Inv save. This save is increased by +1 for each additional shield drone in the unit. The max invulnerable save allowed is 3+.

Whoah, dude! Way to nerf the Shield drone! Common! jk

But seriously, marked decrease in performance?? A shield generator is not going to modify itself to be the same resilience as its owner's armour. Its going to stay at the same capacity until damaged. Thus any of the same model of shield generator is going to confer the same save. I understand your want to balance the addition of Flechettes, and i suggest making this optional for extra points. I am very much a fan of your unit protection, however. But IMHO there's room to grow (as with all things!) I Would change it too within 3" radius, 5+, and within 2(or maybe 1) inches, 4+, all cumulative to 3+ (reflecting, I assume, the programmed behavior of tracking projectiles and zooming in to deflect/absorb the hit? Or is it just the fact that the field of protection is a ball?)

Also, maybe consider a momentary drop of shield when flechettes are triggered, allowing the projectiles to pass through into the offending model, reflected by the first melee attack against drone in question during the assault turn in which the flechette-ed being resolved with a non-invulerable save of 5+ (the strength of what they are made out of ?)

Focusedfire wrote:
Options: Up to Two models may upgrade their weapons to flamers or fusion blasters for 10 points each. No mixing the weapon types. If you upgrade two gundrones then they either take two flamers or two fusion blasters

First, maybe consider making the flamer drone a different type entirely. Thus you could make a special rule where they can't be mixed within 1 controller with any other type.

And, honestly, The fusion drone seems kinda cheesy
flamer is perfectly understandable, both player-wise and fluff-wise
Burst-cannon is, kinda cheesey, but its not ridiculous
Plasma would be pretty cheesy,
anything not mentioned or already in effect, is all for the greater ghoudda!

focusedfire wrote:
D)Sniper Drones are very limited. Only one Stealthsuit squad can take them.

WOOT, i was just thinking to myself that he better not make me able to equip sniper drones! I find this to be a very elegant balance between obvious fluffy compatibility, and cheese.

^^^ Yeah, I'm not super impressed with the magic morphing shield drone. In reality, this could happen.

1 - A Shas'ui of a fire warrior squad has two shield drones giving them T3 and a 4+ armor save. On turn 2 the unit is joined by the Commander Shas'o, and sadly the lone firewarrior Shas'ui is killed due to wound allocation on the enemies next phase, so the Shield drones then pass onto the Shas'o and the little buggers rev up their matter converters and reinforce their structure so that now they are T4 and have a 3+ save.

2 - The Shas'o moves to reinforce the position of the Broadsides and ends his movement too close to them an auto joins the unit. The crafty eldar player mindwars the Shas'o to death (thanks no Tau psychic defense what so ever), so the Broadside Shas'ui takes command of the drones and the little blighters rev up the matter converter one more time and encase themselves in sold admantium giving them a 2+ armor save.

3 - Sadly things are not going so well for the broadsides, to stiffen things up a bit, the lone Etherial joins their ranks to make them Fearless. However the broad side is made into scrap as he fails his 2+ save vs an Eldar Missile Launcher. So now our little shield drone is left to join with the Etherial. It gets ready to rev up its matter converter again only to realize its really sick and tired of this crap so it just disolves all of its current modifications and goes back down to T3 and crys as all of its once awesome admantium armor plating becomes the rigidity of wet toilet paper.

Yeah that. I'm just having a little fun here, but the transfer of drones from one unit to another will be a huge headache. Especially if say a Tau unit with two leader types is attacked in HTH by a unit that has different Init values. Its possible the guy controlling the drones could get axed before other attacks are resolved that could have killed the other leader guy.

Liquidwulfe wrote:Sniper drones were a poor implementation. Imagine making a squad of Marine Scouts or Ratlings a heavy support slot. Then make sure they only have three shots that turn.

Yes, it is a bummer that they take up heavy support, but the option exists to take 9 Sniper Drones and 3 Spotters for 1 Heavy Support slot. Still not the best, but at least you can take more than 1.

no, it makes sense. also, with wound allocation, any tau player i know would make the drones die first. and ANyway, so what if you're controller dies? Is the drone gonna hover in place? Do an auto-recall to the mothership? No. Its going to go up to a good hight, and scan for the closest available controller (within range, eg, within the unit)

Drone Categories
Battle Drone: HQ detachment (like techpriests and so on). A bit expensive, but quite tough and fairly well armed with the more conventional basic weapons.

Deflector Drone: Models in a Unit accompanied-by or containing a Deflector Drone may reroll failed saves. Deflector drone MUST be assigned incoming wounds first, starting with the highest strength.
(The drone is affected by its own ability, but it does mean the thing'll blow pretty early anyways. Still, its cheaper than the old codex marker drones... But special issue. one per army, plus the one an ethereal can field)

Gun Drone: Gun Drones provide additional firepower in the form of their twin-linked Pulse Carbines. Common and highly efficient, these AI serve the Greater Good willingly, treated and maintained as one would a loyal pet.
(Vicious. at 12 points for the wargear upgrade or 14 for a squadron member, I didn't up this just for kicks.)

Marker Drone: Marker Drones are equipped with a Markerlight and extensive sensor systems: The Drone grants the Acute Senses USR to the unit attached, as well as an extra Markerlight.
(and despite the price drop, I have to say I still probably wouldn't take one. but I'm not making every unit for my personal preference, else the piranhas wouldn't even be IN the army list!)

Remora: The largest Drone models currently built, Remora are actually fielded - and controlled by-, the Air Caste. Light and moderately capable, wings of Remora may be fielded in larger air battles, where their powerful Stealth systems
(better gun and 5 points cheaper than the old FW version? yes please. More limited availability though.)

Shield Drone: Toughness and Armour values are identical to the model purchasing them, and, after wounds are assigned, one wound on the protected model or his unit may be re-assigned to the Shield Drone. 4+ inv save of course.
(yup, this is what I did with them. note that by my fixup of the rules, if orphaned, they could become the shields for a group of re-networked drones. but their toughness is set. that gets a bit annoying to keep track of in some cases, so stop buying 2 for every bloody suit you own!)

Sniper Drone: Sniper Drones provide accurate anti-personel firepower. Their limited thrust is caused by the large amount of power dedicated to the firing of their deadly and precise weapon.
(3" move, 3" assault move. but worth it now. actually worth it.)

'orphaned' drones as focused called'em earlier I'd been having work differently. Drones that lose their controller? They have ONE turn left. 3 things can happen.

1) A model with an advanced controller is on the field: if at least four drones get 'orphaned', he may network them into a brand new unit. Yes, that can mean a gun drone, 2 shield drones and a markerlight. They'll probably be out of coherency, but hey, better than being lost. The ADC model's extra drones (it allows 5 instead of 2) may be used to supplement this; very useful! The extra squad doesn't count as KPs; those are already lost when their originating squadrons blew up. (I hate KP. it probably shows given my added ways to avoid'em)

2) The drones aren't numerous enough, or don't have an ADC around to link up: in this case, order default: They get DOUBLE RoF in the shooting phase (of course this pretty much means jack all to shields or the deflector drone), so 4 pulse shots or 2 EMP or markerlight shots, and, having expended their ammunition, do indeed leave the battlefield (as casualties)

3) They didn't have guns, and will attach to the nearest unit, period. This is shield drones (its bloody unlikely a deflector will ever do this) only more or less. Shield drones get a little suicidal and WILL join and intercept even for vehicle squadrons or tanks (I might remove this depending on how abusable this ends up being).

@Maj Tom and Jayden- Thanks guys. You caught me being lazy and auto-importing old rules without fully thinking them through. The shield drones are getting T4 Sv3+. The T4 is now standard on all of my drones(Insert fleff reason about solid state tech is more durable than flesh and blood)and the 3+ save is from not having to carry bulky weapons systems thus being able to have extra armour. I will immediately edit my post to reflect this change and a few others.

I'm still going to keep the assuming control ability.

Will giving the shield drones the T4 and Sv3+ fix the problem? You guys let me know.


Also further thanks to both of you. I noticed some ommissions from hurrying when reading the stuff quoted back at me and then looking at the exploitive example.

First, Under the Machines entry I forgot to note that ranged weapons with the pinning ability in their rules can pin the drones as the final carifying point in that rule.

Second, I forgot to put down the drones must stay within 2" coherency of each other with at least one drone within 2" of the controlling model.

Third, forgot to note the stat changes for the other drones.

I will be correcting this after I'm done writing this post. Again thanks guys.


@Nova and Maj Tom, I agree idealistically with the slight down playing of the drones to them being considered pets. Problem is how does a pet hold an objective? This is the only reason why I'm sticking to my original wording. Now if one of you can justify how to make a pet a scoring unit then I'll be completely on-board.

I do completely agree with the thought that they would be used for the more dangerous work because the drones are easier to repair(Tau need Repair and medic drones). If you don't mind I'm going to take this and hybid it with the current dangerous mission/done fluff as a part of my explanation of why drones can now hold objectives and score for doing so.

Nova, got no prob with you using the Machines psyker resistant rule. I'm planning on mentioning you, Maj Tom, Jayden, and Killkrazy in the contributing authors notes when this finally gets typed up and made into a PDF. I'm growing more intigued with your version as we go along.

*In reply to your question. I have not heard anything as of yet from Malfred, other than his original reply that implied for us to handle it in thread and maybe PDFs sent to one another. Wish I could be of more help.

Maj Tom, The distance represents a simple circular field. This is following the rule for K.I.S.S.. Now the HtH intercept is a part of their programmed behavior.

About the melta drones. They would be BS2 and only able to go up to BS3 with my version of the markerlight rules. Still I can kinda see where it Could be considered Cheesy. This is just an instance of "most other armies get it why don't we" thinking and my trying to save time by cloning an ability for the army rather than being creative. I'll think about it and listen to everyones input before I decide to yank the special weapon drones or not(I'm really attached to the idea but your point is very sound.

Maybe if I put a only 2 per any unit clause?


A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

As always your input will be appreciated, later

focusedfire wrote:@Nova and Maj Tom, I agree idealistically with the slight down playing of the drones to them being considered pets. Problem is how does a pet hold an objective? This is the only reason why I'm sticking to my original wording.

Guard dogs. Now consider the drone is less of a routine/habit forming critter and can have "protect the house/master's-family" substituted for "that box over there" at any time with just a few coded burst transmissions.

They may be limited in their ability to exploit the objective itself, depending on whether or not a gun drone has any remote interfaces or micromanipulators it can deploy, but ensuring a site is secure and going 'sentry' should be a relatively easy thing to have programmed compared to active tank-hunting algorythms behind enemy lines. If not-friendlies show up, they know what to do. That guard dog has plasma-induction weapons for teeth, multiple independant sensor systems and compound data collection from multiple input points within the network, atop of a complete tactical library and possibly realtime data uplinks to ones capable of saying 'good boy' or changing their orders.

All that and they don't even make a mess on the carpet.

About the melta drones.

I'm not huge on that myself: Drones I believe should MOSTLY be restricted to the simpler, easier to use weaponry, and preferably systems without massive power requirements. I'd have much less difficulty with a missile version instead, for example.

A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

Not really sure. to be honest I went and made the shield drones possibly MORE useful than they were in 3rd on my end. Shield generators in my list are just 15 points now, the same as a shield drone. But the drone can be dropped by a single hit, or will have others assigned to you anyways, while a shield generator protects you outright. Perhaps the shield only applies to their defense of others in the shooting phase but still functions for them in assault?

I think we COULD be safely seeing drones as a more pervasive, important part of an army list anyways. while everyone and their mother wears two crux terminatus in their pants behind a refractor field, Tau instead have loyal shield generators that follow them around: more useful in some ways, less in others.

@Nova- A good reason for holding but still doesn't justify the scoring part. Something is missing here but I can't place my finger on it. I'll think on it and get back to you.


I might just drop both the flamer and the melta and instead just have the sniper and "new AFP drones" in limited supply. I'll crunch the numbers. Probably will go with what I thought of originally so that I stay closer to my original concept. Then will modify once we get everyones input and some playtesting in.

Scoring units are, by page 90's definition, the 'grunt' types left holding and defending a position while the more elite/specialised forces keep on going. The 'grunts' are thus left to consolidate, dig in and protect the location from enemy attack.

For Tau, by their simplicity, low cost and definitive grunt status (not to mention the whole 'guard dog' aspect I mentioned), Gun Drones are de-facto the IDEAL scoring unit. They're quite capable of hanging back, completely self-sufficient for simple orders such as "guard this location", and well equipped to deal with intruders while not carrying the rare specialised equipment which one may need to break through and capture the next objective.

They'll then be fast and mobile enough once all is done to return to friendly lines or join the rest of the army without needing a pick-up once the terrain is secured. Furthermore they are the 'individuals' best equipped of all the troops for pulling back and bugging out when someone comes to take that terrain by force (let them take the land, blow them all to bits, land is yours by "default": the two greatest words in the english language); certainly more difficult to pin down and wipe out than some fire-warriors with a big obvious devilfish that may leave them stranded if shot down, and I personally find myself wondering why FW squads should be scoring instead of bugging out, while the drones hold the area!

Oh, and there's the sentry and sensor drone parts from Taros too...

Well that's just my view on the subject...

Right now everything seems a little jumbled on your ideas, its only because we are seeing everything piecemeal. I was going to hold off commenting on specific stuff until I see everything at the same time. But this needs mentioning.

focusedfire wrote:

A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T 4 W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv3+

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Thanks to 5th ed wound allocation (put wounds anywhere you want) the fact that the drone and controlling model change position is unnecessary. Because of the weapon load out difference, you can easily put any power weapon/p-fist attack against the drone. However, you added in Flechettes rule. Now with the swap, depending on what assaulted its possible to now kill off specific models in the enemy unit before they attack. Thats character sniping. Make VERY sure you want to go down that road, before you do this. This one aspect alone will get you cries of Uber Stinky Cheese.

Hmm, you guys might want to start a new thread at some point so the rest of us can have a chance at catching up with what you're talking about

Unless this is like one of those secret handshakes you don't want to let everybody in on until it's completely polished and ready to show off

Up high...!

Down low...!

Too slow...!

RiTides Nids wrote:Hmm, you guys might want to start a new thread at some point so the rest of us can have a chance at catching up with what you're talking about

Unless this is like one of those secret handshakes you don't want to let everybody in on until it's completely polished and ready to show off

Up high...!

Down low...!

Too slow...!

I beliee its the later in this case. I still havent read pages 6-20 (but dont tell any of the regulars! )


Backhand!

To the side!

Inside now!

Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

focusedfire wrote:
About the melta drones. They would be BS2 and only able to go up to BS3 with my version of the markerlight rules. Still I can kinda see where it Could be considered Cheesy. This is just an instance of "most other armies get it why don't we" thinking and my trying to save time by cloning an ability for the army rather than being creative. I'll think about it and listen to everyones input before I decide to yank the special weapon drones or not(I'm really attached to the idea but your point is very sound.

Maybe if I put a only 2 per any unit clause?

Hmm.. The more i read that last, the more i like it.

ANd over the past day of meditating on the idea, i have come to sympathize with your attachment, but i havent been able to get over the image of a cloud of melta weapons all over the field. I find your 2 per unit to be a very nice solution.

Maybe have a separate Drone type available in Flamer, BC(?), Missile pod(Nice idea), and, yes, Fusion Blaster. Maybe make the last two with lowered BS (or not, i dunno)

Also, I have difficulty seeing them giving missile pods and stuff to FW's. Maybe make them capable of taking 4 regular drones, and being able to replace two of them with Heaavy Drone of Flamer/BC variants? I think the lack of high AP weapons with the infantry is a blessing in disguise. Allowing the apponent to be lured close to them, and as they withdraw in 'fear', coincidentally within 75" of a broadside unit or hammerhead, there is a boom.

focusedfire wrote:

A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

Good point, but i think it is less a matter of deserving, and more a matter of logic (convoluted as mine might be )Maybe, since it is a ball, and since FW can pass through it (to walk) maybe make the Tau player force a reroll on any to hit rols in CC within 1" (reflecting the area of resistance that could deflect an ill-executed punch-in-the-feet.)

I know the thread is long so please don't make it longer with nonsense posts. There are several members who are seriously involved in the thread.

Maj. Tom wrote:Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

Maj. Tom- I laughed out loud

Kilkrazy- No problem, I just thought more of us could catch up / see what you guys are talking about if it was put in a new thread. Just a thought

Some ideas for the drones:

Drone squads
Squadron: 2-8 Standard Drones
Type: Jump
Options: Up to two Standard drones may be exchanged for heavy drones

Standard Drones
10 Pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: Standard drones are equipped with Twin-linked Pulse carbines.

Options:* Standard drones may exchange their Twin-linked Carbines for a Drone Shield Generator at +5, or a Rail-rifle at +10
*only two Drones per Drone squadron may take this option.

Special Rules:
Mr. Roboto: Since they are machines, independent drones always pass any morale checks other than pinning.
Total Recall: The controlling player may choose to have a squadron fail any given morale check, Mr. Roboto does not apply to the following regroup test.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Heavy Drones

20 pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2 3 3 1 2 1 - 4+

Equipment: Heavy drones are equipped with a Flamer

Options: They Flamer may be exchanged for a BC or Marker-light at +5 pts, a Missile Pod* at +10, or a Fusion Blaster** at +15. They may also take a Targeting Array.

*The Missile Pod option confers a '-1 BS per 12" to target' penalty on the Drone
**The Fusion Blaster option confers a -2 BS penalty
Special rules:
Heavy Drones are Relentless regardless of Unit type or special rules
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sniper Team

Team: Same as codex, move to Elite FOC section

Spotter
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 3(4) 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: Pulse pistol, Networked Marker-light, Stealth field, Targeting array, and Sniper Drone Special Controller.

Options: The spotter may donn an XV15 stealth-suit for X pts.

Special Rules:
Behind-the scenes: the spotter needs only maintain 4" coherency with the rest of the team, in place of the normal 2". The drones must still maintain 2" coherency with each-other
I'm a real boy!: The spotter must comply with the penalties imposed when his(/her) drones make use of their special rules. However, he gains no benefit from them other than "Sighting In", in which case he/she only gains +1 BS

Sniper drone
20
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2(3) 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: 1 sniper Rail-rifle, Stealth field, Targeting Array

Special Rules
Mr. Roboto
Total Recall
Relentless: They are that
No-scope: Any team(the entire team) may declare slow and purposeful at any-time before the movement phase. If they do this, they gain +1 BS, but they may not do anything during the assault phase of that turn. This ends at the beginning of the next turn.
Sighting in: If a player declares Sighting in for any tri-drone group, That group may neither move nor hold objectives for the remainder of the turn. In exchange they become automatically an obscured target, and gain +2 BS.
Snipers USR




____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Infantry HW DC
(In the infantry Armoury)

Enables equipped model to take drones. Up to four Standard drones may be taken, in any combination.

For X points, you may trade any two regular Drones assigned to any given controller (reword needed: eg, both on 1 controller) for 1 Heavy Drone. This may be done twice per model. This option may only be taken once per unit.

Advanced HW DC

Enables equipped model to take drones. Up to four Standard drones may be taken, in any combination.

For X points, you may trade any regular Drones assigned to any given controller (reword needed: eg, both on 1 controller) for 1 Heavy Drone. This may be done twice per model. This option may only be taken once per unit.



Did i forget anything?
Comments? Questions? Concerns as to my mental health? Post-em™ up!

Maj. Tom wrote:Special rules:
Mr. Roboto: Since they are machines, independent drones always pass any morale checks other than pinning.

I just saw Monsters vs. Aliens, and there's also a shout-out to Mr. Roboto- the president (voiced by Stephen Colbert) goes up to a huge alien probe and plays that music as a first way of making contact

The rules look well thought out... I'll save more detailed comments for after I've read a little more of this

Ok, I'm sorry but when I read this, I had to quote one of my favorite motivational posters.... What The feth Is This gak.

Maj. tom wrote:
Heavy Drones

20 pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2 3 3 1 2 1 - 4+

Equipment: Heavy drones are equipped with a Flamer

Options: They Flamer may be exchanged for a BC or Marker-light at +5 pts, a Missile Pod* at +10, or a Fusion Blaster** at +15. They may also take a Targeting Array.

*The Missile Pod option confers a '-1 BS per 12" to target' penalty on the Drone
**The Fusion Blaster option confers a -2 BS penalty
Special rules:
Heavy Drones are Relentless regardless of Unit type or special rules

Why would anyone ever buy heavy drone that wasn't the flamer? The freekin base cost of a crisis suit is 25 points, a missle pod is only 12 points and it doesn't suffer any pentalities for range. In the case of the fusion blaster, would anyone really purchase a 35 point model that will hit once a fething game. Bull gak.

Why do people making Tau units feel the need to hamstung them. This is like Eternal Warrior, but only not quite. This is like rending, but not quite. This is like Gauss weaponry, only not quite.

Stop it, just stop. Do eldar have to pay extra points for decreased performance from their heavy weapons. No. Do orks no, chaos, deamonhunters, SM, DE, Necrons. No No No. So why should we. If your going to give a drone a fusion blaster make it so it can actually kill something that game. Don't penalize a missile pod just because its not on a crisis suit.

Sorry about my language people, but my hell. Your trying to be too cute, different, etc. but all your doing is making extra measurments and downgrading the upgrade. Whats the point of doing that? Why? If you going to give a unit something, allow them to actually use it as it was fully intended. No more hamstringing gak. If an option cannot be used to its full potential without any drawbacks, then rethink the original option and make it work without adding in extra math/measurements/etc.

K.I.S.S. Someone mentioned it a page or two back, but I haven't read a many entries since then that has actually followed it.

Well, first off, The extra points are to have extra support within a FW squad, and second off, i put as many seconds of thought as can be counted on one foot. and thats 11. so there. Im am in no way attached to these numbers and was merely using them to illustrate which things were more expensive options than others. And the Markerlight drone is 30 pts, way overpriced but nonetheless. The other options are for if you have a semi shooty enemy, but is still gonna get close. They are mainly for FW support. and if they get tank-shock.


Also, do not ever assume to inform me of my intentions. And if you nevertheless do feel compelled to give me what-for, do it in commonly accepted english. (Or, for fairness' sake, some other widely accepted written language) I mean good-god man, even 133t-speak is better than that god-awful nerd jabber from some TV show that has gone on for entirely too long. I caution you to bide your tongue on the rare occasion that you are in the physical presence of another human being. Should you vacate the permanent depression your ass imparts on your throne, thus for even one moment you abandon your sole nurturer and care-giver, the internet, you will find that people are disinclined to refrain from punching you right in your pompous, self-righteous, self-assured face, thereby knocking that look of entitlement off of your grimacing features. God forbid you dispel the silhouette that has faded into the wallpaper behind you, imparted by the glow of the monitor, with sunlight. I will not part ways with a curse, but rather with a sincere wish of good luck towards you, for I feel you and those like you are the ones who need it most of all.

Sounds like Mr. Tom need to get out and follow your own advice. The use of swearing in moments of frustration and disdain is a time honored litterary tradition going back to the days of Shakespear, Keets, Twain and others.

Sometimes there are no other words that can convey the totality of the emotion that someone has for something. As for 133t-speak. Its Dakkas own boards that sensor the words. Trust me, I typed the whole word. I'm not into the Battlestar Gallatica way of swearing by just changing a few letters. When I type feth. I mean feth. <-- it did it again.

I'm not interested in your intentions either, so how can I tell you what you intended to do. I'm not you. I'm only interested in the finished product, I really don't care how you came about it. If I see something that looks poorly thought out, I'm going to say so. My intention is to let you know what I feel is off, and why I feel it is so. However if you don't want to know what others are thinking, good, bad, or indifferent, don't post. Also if its "going to become clearer" with later information at least hint that there is other information so that maybe we are willing to hold our tongues until we get the whole picture.

We are after a finished product. Like all good writing, the number of ideas, paragraphs, etc that end up on the cutting room floor should be immeasurable to what actually ends up in the final version. We each have to be willing to sacrifice what we consider our "best" idea if in the grand scheme of things the whole turns out better for its omission.

I expect the same critism of any ideas I myself have put forth, with the same passion put into their inclusion, or omission, or just plain wrongness that we give the offical GW codexs about rules that they have that make us scratch our heads. Its only by figuring out what will and wont work that we will get something that functions. Sadly most people (myself included) are reluctant or flat out can't take a step back and look at something objectivly, after all it was born from our own self imagined superior brain. It should be perfect right? We know what it should do? Often its up to others to tell us that that isn't what the actual words say.

Just a few suggestions after reading the other posts for ways to improve my first army

Give seekers a blast mode- Large blast, S4 AP5, up the regular mode to AP1, and leave points cost

Give pathfinders the ability to 'fortify' whatever piece of terrain they scout into similar to a techmarine, one use only. That terrain is also 'mined' against enemy units, as per scout bikers, plus adds benefit of defensive grenades. Points bump.

Drop rail rifles from pathfinders

Any model with a markerlight can fire at a different target than the rest of his squad if he so chooses

Specific devilfish upgrades for df bought for different unit types
- Honor Guard devilfish can cast permanent night-fighting aura 3" around the hull for points cost
- Firewarrior devilfish can get upgraded vox to let any FW squad in 3" use the commanders LD
- Reinforced side armor available for Pathfinder devilfish
- Medicae facility that grants FNP to fire warriors only against shooting attacks- 30 points

I want it to be very difficult to wipe out Tau infantry with shooting, but very easy to do so if you can come to grips with them in close combat.

Increase crisis suit max squad size to four, allow them to move 18 inches a turn- divided however the owning general decides. So, 1" in movement, 17" in assault, or 12" and 6", 9" and 9", whatever.

Also- Kroot get stealth and I 4 for a 2 point increase

Vespids get the originally rumored templates @ s3, making a squad of them like cheap tzeetch flamers


solid shot railfun can fire almost like a vibrocannon- first hit is as normal, any / unit behind that gets hit w/ S8 AP3 hit, behind that S6 AP5 S4 AP- then it finally looses lethal energy. Will it have much of an effect? Not really, but I think it would be cool to show the extreme velocity of the round smashing through three tanks, possibly, line abrest.

Right. We've had nearly two pages of mostly just chatting. I'd imagine Focused is probably out for the weekend or something, and my own stuff is in limbo till we get news on how much its okay to just post (and where one can do so), as otherwise I've a whole fandex more or less ready.

I was gonna keep quiet till I saw all the hamstrung suggestions. Those got to the cutting floor about 45 revisions ago (yes, I've opened, changed and saved the armylist part of the two files I've made mine as about 80 times; the other 'round 30 but usually in big broad 'half the thing's deleted).

A few examples:
-Broadsides were gonna be BS4, with the Heavy 2 railgun making them BS3 instead. But then the whole markerlight system rolls over that and really makes the thing just a cheap copout for saving points.
-The special issue ion carbine was gonna be a -1BS for its alternate fire mode. Then I realised I was being an idiot, and that losing a shot just to drop the thing's AP by 1 when it was this expensive was already the right cost to effectiveness.
-Commanders originally had an overwatch special for regular crisis teams, as I'd expanded the weapon list enough that it was starting to be questionable to take crisis over stealths or broadsides or heavy drones (I'll get to THOSE later). you want convoluted? this thing involved getting their weapon attacks at effectively I "11", firing a single battlesuit weapon instead of your normal attacks, once per game.

Now this wasn't a terrible idea in concept, but making the rules anything but non-clunky and not-potentially-abusable was getting troublesome. Plus back then I hadn't fully rebuilt the markerlight system, and so this was just an early attempt at having units give something to others.

Oh by the way: That drone idea: Wouldn't be allowed to fire at all unless it also bought the array, if using the fusion blaster. BS0... Either way, a terrible deal. Which brings me to heavy drones...

Heavy drones: Love drones, love the heavies, like the concept, but then you get to work on its execution, trying to make them fit into an army, and you have a problem.

In their original variant, you can't just dump a heavy support FoC for burst cannons and markerlights. Good point efficiency for your hits, sorta, well, a lot compared to the **** <pick a 4-letter word, any 4-letter word> marker drone: 60 points for a single hit is STILL bad enough in my new markerlight system that the price needed to drop.
you can't just take'em as dual burst cannons; then why not just take stealth suits, for MARGINALLY less accuracy but far greater defense, in elites slot where there's less fighting for space?

And the special weapons? what are we doing, crisis by another name? Ah. Yes, that's EXACTLY what it comes down to.

Heavy drones are the greatest alternate model thing you'll find for your crisis. But let's be honest, that's what we want them for and what they are: A different crisis model. We try to camoflage it but in the end, those special weapons are on the XV8 for a reason: that's the tau way.

The best I've managed to do, is install a single Broadside secondary weapon (so twinlinked burst, missile, plasma or a single SMS), as an HQ detatchment, with advanced multitracker or targetting array (which weapon decides which you get) and all-but-the-mega-melee monstrous creaturedom.

No, it doesn't even get a flamer. But flamers I think of as almost borderline for tau: except against orks and tyranid, they'd probably have a hard time wanting to field it. However, that doesn't matter; there's a few sources of blasts and templates more in my codex anyways, including a very easy seeker strike. So just burst'em with a markerlight-team once or twice and expend the counters and be done with it; lets you keep the hell away from that flamer range!

Well forgive me then. My definition of accepted language includes explicit language and colloquialisms. Actually, should you meet me in person, you'll find i use quite a bit of colorful turns of phrases. But when not speaking face to face i try to use as clear language as possible, since gone are the mediums of body-language and voice cues in the internet. How can you tell me to follow my advice when you don't even know me? I could be a 9 year-old with a thesaurus for all you know (yes i realize the hypocrisy of this statement given my previous post, and again i apologize for being so rash). I mistook your use of the words feth and gak as, well, your use. I was not aware of Dakka's filter.

Secondly, I try to objectify things as much as possible, I am not always successful but i do try. Had you read my couple previous posts you would (i hope) realize that i am merely trying to contribute to that end result. My aim was to put forth my idea, in order that people may dissect it and criticize it, whereby making it better. Or, if the whole just doesn't work, then maybe incorporating aspects of it into their own ideas. Thus does evolution take place, and the end result will be adapted to the current trends of thought. My overall intended influence is that it stays within the bounds of, at least I consider, the core meaning of what it is to be Tau. If my ideas are totally irrelevant, then may i serve as an example of others, but not before they get due consideration, as much as anyone's suggestions.

Thirdly, as you said, you couldn't know my intentions. However, you felt obligated to inform me of them anyway.

Jayden63 wrote:
Your trying to be too cute, different, etc. but all your doing is making extra measurments and downgrading the upgrade. Whats the point of doing that? Why? If you going to give a unit something, allow them to actually use it as it was fully intended. No more hamstringing gak. If an option cannot be used to its full potential without any drawbacks, then rethink the original option and make it work without adding in extra math/measurements/etc.

If you get the impression that i am trying to be cute or whatnot, tell me that you get that impression, so i can explain myself or correct myself.

All this talk of sacrificing our Point of view for a better result is great. However, nowhere in your post can i see constructive criticism. All I see is, if i may paraphrase "This is garbage! Im only throwing it away because it's worthless to me" "i beleive thats in someones sig . If you have a better idea, or some modification you could propose, than by all means, lets hear it. If not, then say what is wrong with it in clear, concise terms. But don't go on a long useless tangent like that that brings very little to the overall discussion.

@ nova, thx 4 da input, i realize i need some clarification. My hindsight is 20:20

Nova wrote:Right. We've had nearly two pages of mostly just chatting. I'd imagine Focused is probably out for the weekend or something, and my own stuff is in limbo till we get news on how much its okay to just post (and where one can do so), as otherwise I've a whole fandex more or less ready.

I was gonna keep quiet till I saw all the hamstrung suggestions. Those got to the cutting floor about 45 revisions ago (yes, I've opened, changed and saved the armylist part of the two files I've made mine as about 80 times; the other 'round 30 but usually in big broad 'half the thing's deleted).

To clarify, the 'hamstringing' was done with little thought to game dynamics, 'fairness', nor being like another codex, but more of drawing realist parallels in the game. Thus if you walk, well, slowly and purposefully, you can sight in better. And if you go prone, though you cannot walk anywhere, you can aim even better. As to the missile pod, The farther away a target is, the more complex of a trajectory calculation the drone must make, since missiles travel considerably slower than projectiles. And the fusion blaster is a large weapon, and the missile pod and the fusion blaster were meant to take the TA pretty much standard.

nova wrote:
Oh by the way: That drone idea: Wouldn't be allowed to fire at all unless it also bought the array, if using the fusion blaster. BS0... Either way, a terrible deal. Which brings me to heavy drones...

Heavy drones: Love drones, love the heavies, like the concept, but then you get to work on its execution, trying to make them fit into an army, and you have a problem.

In their original variant, you can't just dump a heavy support FoC for burst cannons and markerlights. Good point efficiency for your hits, sorta, well, a lot compared to the **** <pick a 4-letter word, any 4-letter word> marker drone: 60 points for a single hit is STILL bad enough in my new markerlight system that the price needed to drop.
you can't just take'em as dual burst cannons; then why not just take stealth suits, for MARGINALLY less accuracy but far greater defense, in elites slot where there's less fighting for space?

I was trying to make the fusion's BS to be 2(3) in practice. The maths, and indeed the entire thing, was done on-the-spot, as i wanted to get this out there asap so that all could build upon it.

And i am appalled that i forgot to mention that they can't be thier own unit!!!!!!!!!!! All the extra hardware and targeting equipment results in a machine of less than stellar intelligence. Thus they dont take up a FOC space. They are wargear. 8 of these guys would be lost on their own. Thats why theres a max of 2 of them per unit, (did i forgot to mention this ! ) they need the controller to give them targeting solutions.

***omitted rule!*** Heavy drones may only fire at the same unit as their controlling model
-or-
Heavy drones may only fire at a unit if there is a model equipped with a drone controller in their unit is firing at that unit.

In Gun Drone squads, (max 2 per squad) they can and must fire at the same target as the rest of the drones.

nova wrote:
And the special weapons? what are we doing, crisis by another name? Ah. Yes, that's EXACTLY what it comes down to.

Heavy drones are the greatest alternate model thing you'll find for your crisis. But let's be honest, that's what we want them for and what they are: A different crisis model. We try to camoflage it but in the end, those special weapons are on the XV8 for a reason: that's the tau way.

I agree with this, but the tau are lacking in self-support for the FWs. Thats why theres a max of two, and i believe i forgot to mention that they can't be mixed within a unit. I am not trying to mask anything, The crisis suits are something i wish to stay in thier position of awe, and with thier versatility, they stay there. Might the heavies not count as jump-troops? And i failed to specify that the crisis suits cannot take heavies, since they have no need. I like the dynamic of the 3e codex myself, but givin what i have seen as the current trend of thought, i was merely trying to bring in the new, without compromising the old in any way.

Also, i suggest themed armies, such as a classic army type, limited to Tau only + 1(or 2) units of orcs, plus others.

nova wrote:
No, it doesn't even get a flamer. But flamers I think of as almost borderline for tau: except against orks and tyranid, they'd probably have a hard time wanting to field it. However, that doesn't matter; there's a few sources of blasts and templates more in my codex anyways, including a very easy seeker strike. So just burst'em with a markerlight-team once or twice and expend the counters and be done with it; lets you keep the hell away from that flamer range!

Thes, i think, were borne out of the threat of orcs and such. In order to cover an organized fall back. I don't know since i am not the progenitor of the concept. (not seriously anyways, but it does have a good deal of mearit, i think.)

Again, any constructive criticisms or suggestions such as these are always welcome

Maj. Tom wrote:

All this talk of sacrificing our Point of view for a better result is great. However, nowhere in your post can i see constructive criticism. All I see is, if i may paraphrase "This is garbage! Im only throwing it away because it's worthless to me" "i beleive thats in someones sig . If you have a better idea, or some modification you could propose, than by all means, lets hear it. If not, then say what is wrong with it in clear, concise terms. But don't go on a long useless tangent like that that brings very little to the overall discussion.

This bit is my bad. I have a really bad habit of almost never giving positive feedback. When talking about a movie with my friends I will always be the first to point out the negatives, even if I really enjoyed the positives. I figure there are always 10 or so people willing to gush over how awesome something is, why should I just add in a "Me too".

For the most part, if I don't comment about a section of a post, that means I agree with it or don't have a problem with it.

I admit its probably the wrong way to do things. It makes me come off as a negative person because of that. Also a lot of people that receive criticism fall into the mind set "Well if they didn't like that, they probably didn't like the rest of it." Even if that's not the case, its just so much easier for the mind to include everything as the negative rather than look around at wasn't said as the positive.

So again, I'm sorry for coming off as a harsh negative bastard. I'll attempt at doing better at emphasizing that which works as well as that which, in my opinion, could use some more work.

Self support? a little, though they're really only lacking in my version when it comes to "not pulse" weaponry; with the markerlight system around they're accurate, high strength guns with 15" doubletap range, or 18" assault 2 with a 1/game EMP grenade launch (gun drones that lose their controller may very well take out a vehicle on their way off the battlefield) which if numerous enough counts as the whole squad having photons. Rather, a lot of the army's abilities are better defined as "good support for the warriors", while in my dex the gun drones are the truly self-sufficient ones; but nowhere near as capable when supported (no markerlight, lower melee capacity though higher init, etc).

A lot of the support now comes from air.. support, a lot of it in the form of seekers. I'd view an average list as having 4-12 of the things, depending on whether anyone mounts a First-gen skyray or a Grav-Launcher, or remoras, or the like, when around 1500 points. These could be 8/3 small blasts, submunition double-templates, or emp double-hit haywire missiles.

With just two markerlight counters though, FW become nasty little critters, whom'll pass on another marker hit if they took a light, making an extremely powerful step either in anti-light vehicle or anti-horde duty, despite the lack of flamers.

Or, to be more precise; the army's got better support for S5 now.

game-wise, i like your idea, but i just think that the main thing about tau is their versatility. SM are very standard, if you get what i mean. Very uniform. The thing i see with tau is that they are flexible and versatile, but they stick to what works. Thus you have only one type of thing to any given purpose. But you have enough things to face a wide range of enemies. Its kinda late, im tired, this isnt making much sense i realize. But i figure i might as well post this convoluted response that actually takes fluff support away from my drone idea. All thats really left is personal sentimentality. I feel as if theres other supporting reasons and will post them in an edit if i can remember them after some sleep.


....Ahh, To be a robot....

You're not entirely off in saying that, no. There's a lot to be said for the feel of an army, or what it evokes in your mind. One certainly can't be faulted for worrying or wishing an army would fit how they see/picture it, especially if its close and just 'lacking a little bit or two'.

I actually see it the other way personally; with the marines lugging around all sorts of varying equipment (let's face it, the tac squad fluffwise barely even exists, and even then its because they're all carrying the top of the imperium equipment line to begin with), with multiple grenades, items, sensors and all that.

Whereas I look at fire warriors and see something a little more in the middle. I'm not really sure I can even convey this properly but... its like an eldar aspect?: The Fire Warrior team has something; they call it a pulse rifle. It is a good gun. a strong gun. It works on people, it works on light vehicles, it works on larger vehicles with badly armoured facings... Its a hawk's talon at a third of the price and downed to rapidfire, which means more wounds and more firepower when up close.

It may lack a little in personality but that's kinda their charm: generic grunts, each with just a little less power than most armies single heavy-weapons-guy. Uniformity, similarity, but kept on the good side of things.

...believe it or not, but thats what i meant. the army as a whole is veratile adaptable. Everything has its purpose, its function. everyone has thier niche. And hearing someone else voice my doubts confirms them. Move my heavy drones to *FARSIGHT ARMY SPECIAL RULES: SPECIAL UNITS* since i still think the tau should have themed Armies, with special rules for the different types. I see a wonderful opportunity here, but also opportunity for disaster. Should one take this trail, that one should definitly not be GW. It will need to be done thoughtfully and delicately, neither of which GW is famous for. Such as Aun'shi being brought back (i don't care how, say it was a typo in the fluff!) And him Being 1+ in a very balanced army type that is progressive, yet very much "classic Tau" in philosophies. Farsight being a very progressive army type, yet limited in supplies. O'shovah being something reflecting blind loyalty to a religious leader. These are rough ideas that need to be revised by a fully conscious brain lol.

Biggest worry I still have for my dex... the power level.

1) is the creep enough? not enough? too much?

2) did I add TOO MANY options for things like the devilfish (which now ranges from triple burst cannons at 60 points to a first-gen skyray with smart missiles at 125+wargear, just one markerlight though), and the Hammerhead or broadside suits?

Hammerhead primaries now the Variable Ion Cannon, Hammerhead Railcannon, Gravitic (skyray mkII) launcher... optional markerlight in the sensor turret, and secondaries include the old stuff plus 2 missile pods or a killer-drone system (a slightly larger, more versatile cross of missile and smart; a little weaker than the first, a little stronger than the latter)

My best suggestion would be to put all your ideas into it. Then, let it sit, then come back to it once the ideas have lost their novelty, and take away as much as you can in order to stay true to what you consider tau, but still make the changes uu really wan to see.

Alternateively post it all up so we can criticize and improve

Hey guys, Sorry it is taking a bit but the weekends are my busy time with me and the missus putting in about 30 hours of work trime in the two days. Now to cover some points.

Jayden63 wrote:Thanks to 5th ed wound allocation (put wounds anywhere you want) the fact that the drone and controlling model change position is unnecessary. Because of the weapon load out difference, you can easily put any power weapon/p-fist attack against the drone. However, you added in Flechettes rule. Now with the swap, depending on what assaulted its possible to now kill off specific models in the enemy unit before they attack. Thats character sniping. Make VERY sure you want to go down that road, before you do this. This one aspect alone will get you cries of Uber Stinky Cheese.

I, actually intended to go down this route. If the opponent doesn't line up his special characters against the drone equipped model he has nothing to worry about. I will go back and add to the rule that this happens at the beginning of the defenders reaction and only works when the controlling model is already locked in base to base. This will prevent the unit from intentionally engaging a special character and then swapping for the drones.

Does that clarification help?


Maj Tom-I like the concept behind your unit ideas but I believe that Jayden has a point that he is trying to make but failing to communicate. The problem I see is them being overly complex and thus slowing game play. A little tweeking and the ideas would be much more serviceable with out leaving the impression of, "Mega-Nerf GWs most terrifying monster".

@Everyone-The direction I'm going with on this codex is that the Tau are a balanced force that somewhat disdains HtH. Now this makes the army hard to balance in the traditional sense. The reliance upon a primarily ranged force means that in order to be balanced the army is going to have to be a borderline elite shooting army.

Making the Tau this borderline elite means that the units are going to be some what expensive when compared to Hoarde or swarm armies. Taking into account the improvements that I'm planning you'll understand why the units in the army aren't getting any cheaper. Heck I'm planning on them going up in points.

To answer why on this I'll point out the worry some of you guys's had of why ever take a crisis suit when you have these drones. To this I say exactly, in a way. BS 4 and 5 Crisis suits benefiting from my marker design should be expensive. Combine this with TLOS making the average Crisis team only 2 Strong in 5th ed to keep the units footprint down to where they can hide and you should be able to see where I'm going. To put it another way:
Will flamer drones make the Fire warriors nastier in HtH? No
Will BS2 Fusions do the same? No
Will these changes make them nastier in shooting. To a limited degree, yes.
Which unit would benefit the most from them?.......................

Thats right, the 2 man Crisis Teams.
Is this fairly balanced? I believe so. Here is why.
If the crisis team wishes to manuvuere to use the flamer then they cannot make use of the Guerilla tactics special rule and will most likely be assaulted the next turn.

What does a twin-linked BS3 fusion crisis suit cost? 48 Points. The two BS2 Fusion drones will come to 40 pts.

Which will hit more? The suit. Now up the drones to BS3 with markerlights and the odds change in favor of the drones.

When you combine this with the demand for the new shield drones and these slots are going to be pretty competitive. I see the SW Drone equipped crisis suits being monat(Lone wolves)hunter teams. Maybe right up fluff where they are the last surviving members of a bonded squad that go into a period of solitude before they can handle bonding to another team.


@Nova, I'll try to get the vehicle section up in the next day or two. Or I could go into the Weapons special characteristcs if you want.

*Sneak Peek* HammerHead railgun is able to fire a variety of rounds not available to its little brother on the broadsides.

These rounds are the Normal Railgun Solid Shot*, The Airburst Fragmentation Submunition round, and maybe the Phonton Sub-munition Burst , I'll get into details later.
*Improved profile

Gotta go and catch up on whats being posted and then sleep.

wait wait wait. a photon burst? I have no idea if we're thinking the same thing here, but I mused with using the damn thing to put down "nightfight" regions myself... basically anything under the template took only s3 hit (yeah a big lasgun of a shell) but was now in 'difficult' terrain, and had firing into or out of the area was a night-fight rules. Problem is I was seeing way too much abuse especially if I removed the damage part... I considered putting it back in but as a seeker.

overall the army under my dex version is marginally less expensive; most things being maybe 1 point less and with fewer 'extras' tacked on than they did with IG (who get grenades, etc etc). Skimmers are what dropped most in price, but that's pretty much global for the game as time goes on given 5th's changes. I've done my best to keep the army more or less medium-cost; I've always liked the Tau having more forces than ultra-elite marines/eldar, but without the giant meatgrinder of orks, nids and the guard. Efficient, not elite...

Here; in light of your upcomming weapon details, the hammerhead.
but first: broadsides: BS3, railgun's same as we know and love, and heavy 2. standard Ion Cannon available as cheaper alternative, or a MLRS for area damage. overall though, we all know it'll be ion or rail.

Heavy railcannons are also covered but being just a little bigger and nastier I don't need to go into much detail.

Hammerhead:
Variable Ion Cannon: 20 points. 60" S6 AP3 heavy 4. oh woo hoo, he lowered the strength, why should we pay more... but wait, that's not all! S8 AP2 EMP Heavy 2! potentially 4 glances (its a glance-only weapon); guaranteed to piss things off, even though its not as 'fireball of glory' as the rails. Absolutely sick against flyers and void shields.

Hammerhead Railcannon: (profile you love): Heavy 1 Blowthrough, or (submunition profile) that ignores cover.
Blowthrough: on a glance, penetrate or wound, roll d6: on a 4+ you get a bonus glance (or wound) as the thing blows out the other side, probably taking the OTHER sponson with it. I'm teetering on the edge of just making it 'on a hit' instead mind you; it would be simpler, but I feel probably too strong.

Against critters, IF the thing doesn't or can't instakill (saving throws work normally, this is a 'on wound), the additional wound MUST be taken by the same model. Otherwise, saves or not, it hits mike in the face after coming out of bob. the saves still working allow for moments of awesome, where it somehow manages to NOT be lethal to a termie, only for the shrapnel from the exit wound to go impale his buddy right dead, or whatever.

Gravitic Launcher: 8 seekers. Its your ammo. Swarm System included. Launcher can be used as swarm system or direct fire; doesn't matter, but what does matter is it only fires 2 missiles a turn (so either 2 seeker strikes, one swarm seeker strike, two direct-fire unlimited shots though that needs LOS, or one of one and another of the other). When firing pairs in same fashion, they do have to be the same warhead type, but that can mean 4 emp rolls on a target, or 4 submunition 'flamer templates'... or 4 8/3 standard seeker blasts...

Unlimited range, variable ammo, the 'tau' way of indirect fire, what more could you want?

RiTides Nids wrote:

Maj. Tom wrote:Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

Maj. Tom- I laughed out loud

Kilkrazy- No problem, I just thought more of us could catch up / see what you guys are talking about if it was put in a new thread. Just a thought

I would like to do a summary however we have 23 pages of thread without general agreement on the core direction of a codex rewrite.

Some people want to introduce new classes of units, such as heavy drones and jet bikes. Some want a variety of new special rules or USRs to be allocated, for special characters and elite units. Some want cheaper units and some want more expensive, more elite units. I prefer to work within the existing framework and tinker with organisation, points costs and equipment capability (e.g. make the Pulse Rifle rage 15 Rapid Fire.)

It is not easy to reconcile all these different ideas and summarise them.

There seem to be two primary directions, but it'll be hard for anyone to see them all that well till Focused and I get a place to put them up.

Things we do all seem to have a consensus on:

1) Methods to avoid and punish, rather than win at, close combat

2) moderately expensive models: the main difference in opinion here being how much specialisation to grant them. Focused seems to be going towards the eldar route, with expensive, but less numerous, powerful units, whereas I'm going more middle of the road and focusing on point-efficiency at the expense of the higher extremes of ability (ie; more forgiving but less powerful than an aspect). But overall its generally understood we'll be bit less expensive than marines but less powerful, and more powerful than IG but less economical.

3) A need for a rework on combined arms as used by the tau: In my case the markerlight system becomes the core for this, making interlocking lines of fire far more effective than just one team of pathfinders plus a single unit using all that up.

Units as a whole need to be advantageous to those around them... not as pure dependance; tau should be more self-sufficient than that eldar-like fashion of doing things; but rather as the 'trick' to winning more often: some armies need to know how to maneuver, some need to know just what to pick, some don't really need much thought at all they're so forgiving... with tau, it should be on a shootier dark-eldar level: slightly more forgiving (better survivability), but a little less total-annihilation gamebreaking offensive if used masterfully.

Where we're mostly split, is on just how to do each individual unit or system, is all. Once we get a light to put things up more concretely, it'll be in a different thread, where I guess the two main dex ideas are either gonna battle it out, or exist as two very viable and interesting options (like chaos demons and chaos marines?). In the meantime, we can use more suggestions/questions/ideas.

I wish to echo what Nova said here. He has a pretty good grasp of the situation. The only thing I would straighten out is a slight misperception that I myself caused.

Nova- My version of the Tau are going for middle of the road to but the basic costs of battlesuits is going to increase to reflect the new standardized equipment.

I think the average XV-8 is going to run 35-40 points to reflect the included targeting arrays, drone controllers, and Tau optics. If you added the wargear to the current model the price would come out about even but at a higher base. This will in effect make the army more expensive by you having to buy the model with the wargear already included. The basic weapons upgrades will stay the same or in the case of plasma drop to 15 pts.

The basic fire warriors are going to end up being a little cheaper for a fully loaded unit but there are going to be the new drone options that people WILL want to use in their basic troops. So again added expense.

The vehicles are getting tweeked and will stay the same price but with much improved weaponry.

PS- You and I seem to be thinking very similarly on the Hammerhead Railgun. My special rule is called Peircing instead of Blowthrough. They are very similar but still have slight differences.

The Ion cannon we have similar ideas but fairly different effects.

Where everyone is going to go crazy with my idea of the vehicles will probably be the secondary weapons systems.

Gotta go, another 15-ish hour day calling.

I'm interested in this secondary systems change you mention.

XV8: In my case, the modularity was kept. Shas'Ui 34 points, Team leader 38, Shas'Vre 42. They're BS4, and the team lead or shas'vre can purchase a networked markerlight, making them extremely compatible in any order with the Commander. No other integrated changes, though drones are automatically available if shas'ui or higher (ground troops) or team lead or higher (battlesuits). Shas'Vre are cleared to use one special issue system each. I like how variable the suits are and tried to keep that by making the only integral upgrade BS one.
-Fusion/missile dropped by a point. one. Plasma by 2, but its assault 2 24". The CIB is no longer available; the current incarnation of the line, however, is slated to go into production as its pretty stable: the Gatling Ion Blaster is 24/4/4/assault4. Expensive but worth it. If we consider the airburst to be a 'flamer' upgrade, each weapon has its own special issue version, more or less.


FW gained little options other than the changes I listed earlier. their slightly lower costs and slightly improved weapons, along with the markerlight system, make them a more solid choice than they were, keeping their lack of special weapon options as their weakness.

Vehicles gained more options on average, with a price drop in skimmers but easily as -or slightly more- expensive with a full loadout. Other than the handful extra gun options, like the 'warfish' field support weapon options, my secondaries have little change save a few prices or the like. So I'm very interested in what you've done with the secondaries. I'm pretty happy with the primaries though.

Well how about the Tau have access to Uranium-238 and may add it to their submunition which makes it AP3 and 2+ poisoned attack or something like that to show its radioactivity? (All for the greater good of course).

That would be pretty unlikely: killing everyone is one thing, but salting the earth on a world you want is a pretty bad idea. 238's pyrophoric, sure, but its toxic effects are primarily from vaporising armour. Its radioactive properties mean cancers and mutations for troops and civilians down the line, not "and then the guy dies 5 minutes later".

DU's toxic and radioactive properties aren't much use on the battlefield, especially not for fast, "this must be casualty now" damage. Its penetration and ignition are what its good for on there; high density makes good penetrators, and if the thing catches fire just from vaporising, so much the better. The whole health hazard part? that's 5-10 years later when the whole population that moved in is having 3 armed cyclops babies with lukemia, and you realise half your old troops and civvies there are having multiple cancers at once, and I don't mean from metastasizing.

But any weapon that slags through armour is likely giving the whole vaporised molten metal effect anyways, including explosive ones, so really...

Nova- Before I get into the vehicle secondaries I just wanted to point out a couple of things that seem to be of a concensus.

1)We both have written the XV-8's getting integral targeting arrays for BS4

2)We both have Shas'ui and up integral drone controllers

3)We both have the Fire Warriors themselves almost identicle. The only difference will be in available drone options.

4)Drones will have a greater position of importance by being scoring units.

There are still others but add this to what you posted earlier and the basic format for a new codex is beginning to shape up.



Now to answer your questions.

The Photon Burst Shells are an AI controlled Cluster Bomb that upon being fired breaks into three AI guided clusters. The Photon Burst Shell has the following profile:
S n/a* AP n/a* Barrage 3 Large Blast, Pinning
*This Shell has no Strength or AP and because it does no damage, no saves of any type may be taken against its effects. The effects are that any units touched by one or more of the blast markers will fire at -2 BS their next shooting phase and there will be no need to roll for spotting distance during night fighting for any touched unit during the rest of that turn. Enemy units may not have their BS reduced to below 1.Any enemy unit touched by the blast emplates take a pinning test unless they are immune to the effects of pinning.

The Airburst Fragmentation Submuntion uses the same tech as the Airburst Fragmentaion Projector but benefits from more explosives per bomblet and the higher kinetic enrgy from being fired out of the Railgun. It's profile is: S6 AP4 Large Blast, Ignores cover.

Railgun Sabot Has the following Profile: S 10 AP1 Heavy 1, Piercing
Piercing- Any roll to wound or penetrate of a 6 will cause one and only one additional automatic wound or penetrating hit. Rolls to wound of a six ignore invulnerable saves. All vehicles are considered as opened topped when determining damage from Railgun hits(Or railguns get to always add +1 to their penetration rolls against any vehicle). Which do you like?


Please keep in mind that the Sabot shot is still being refined and toned down.


In my version the Vehicle secondary systems benefit from a weapons change and a new option.

First, the new option is the use of marker dones as a defensive weapons upgrade on the Hammerhead Battle Tanks and the Skyray Pathfinder transports.

Second, Gun drones are no longer an option for the Hammerhead. The HammerHead now gets to choose between the Redone SMS or Burstcannons.
The SMS is now combined with the missile pods that gives it a select fire mode:
Line of Sight-Range 36" S7 AP4 assault 2
SMS no LoS-Range 24" S4 AP5 assault 2 Blast

These stats are for each pod so double the rate of fire to assault 4 to represent both pods firing when on tanks or broadsides.

Burst cannons are now: Range 18" S5 AP5 Rending

The Devilfish transports come with gundrones but may be upgraded to marker drones or load any of the allowed drones from the squad taking it for their transports. They may also Take the new sms.

The SkyRays may take the same secondaries as the devilfish.



I'll let you wait another bit for the piahnas

Later

Photon Burst shell: Absolutely sick. you realise that unless immune to pinning if this was combined with my markerlight system you basically would have 1-2 pinned squads every turn, period?
Delicious.

I'm rather ambiguous on the -BS though, as its an easy one to 'forget' or 'add to' or the like... you know how those are.

Sabot: Hm... we've gone pretty similar here too. in my case, a successful damage has a 50% chance of causing the extra. in your case, its a flat 16.67% of hits, but penetrating (for vehicles). in mine it ranges from 41.6% of wounds (unless there's a T9/10 out there), to .25 of hits on AV14, but glance and doesn't ignore invulnerables.

Could mine be too common/easy? The two alternative methods for mine I'm considering:
1) just change it to a 5+ instead of 4+
2) make it roll twice (wound or pen) on a 5-6 to-hit.

I'd suggest removing the 'open topped' clause; twin AP1 penetrating is already a good chance of a boom.

your vehicle SMS; the 'killer drone launcher' in my case, we went different ways:

Killer Drone Launcher: A secondary weapon for hammerheads, a field-support primary for devilfish
36" S6 AP5 Assault 4
36" S6 AP5 Assault 2 Blast
Both ignore LoS: The onboard AIs decide in flight whether to spread the munitions across an area or to focus them in small clumps.

Burst Cannons: 24" S5 AP5 (shots still as normal). [edit: but they HAVE been defensive since the early drafts, that much never changed]. Perhaps I DON'T have enough rending, but I figure with the EMP and the Railguns....

I still have drones available to hammerheads meself, and the regular SMS is also available to hammerheads that want to skimp on points a bit.

The skyray being a two-variant set of upgrades, well, its not its own window in there anymore.

focusedfire wrote:Railgun Sabot Has the following Profile: S 10 AP1 Heavy 1, Piercing
Piercing- Any roll to wound or penetrate of a 6 will cause one and only one additional automatic wound or penetrating hit. Rolls to wound of a six ignore invulnerable saves. All vehicles are considered as opened topped when determining damage from Railgun hits(Or railguns get to always add +1 to their penetration rolls against any vehicle). Which do you like?

I would say count as open topped because being AP1 they always get +1 any way.

Nova wrote:Killer Drone Launcher: A secondary weapon for hammerheads, a field-support primary for devilfish
36" S6 AP5 Assault 4
36" S6 AP5 Assault 2 Blast
Both ignore LoS: The onboard AIs decide in flight whether to spread the munitions across an area or to focus them in small clumps.

Awesome

P.S. Can you send me a copy of your version of the codex please, I am very curious (besides 2 heads are better then 1). Send to

@ Nova- Feel free to use the Photon Burst Shell if you want.

The -2 BS was more for affecting Tanks. I had thought about it causing an auto crew shaken but quickly deemed that to powerful.
All in all the ability to pin and the minus to the BS seemed to fit the with the concept of a giant photon grenade. This is why I took it this direction.


The Sabot round I had toyed with making it piercing on a roll of 5+. Still leaning towards it a bit but the other alternatives make me want to be cautious.

The other alternatives I'm still playing with is:
1) Making the weapon have +1 penetration no matter the Target
2) Counts as pentetrating even when equaling armour value(EG.; A roll of 14 counts a penetrating versus a monolith or other 14 armor)
3) All vehicles treated as opened topped when assesing damage from railguns
4) Ignores all saves

It will be one of these options added to the above peicing profile.
I personally am leaning to the always get +1 pentration added to the total no matter what the target. Penetration Roll of a 1 still fails to do damage.


My secondary missile systems I went the way of established tech and giving the vehicles an actual defensive weapon.

The difference in ranges represent an aquired lock versus having to search for the target in flight.

The difference in profiles follows GW trend of direct focused impact versus area affect explosion. You combine this with the fact that our missile launchers fire two shots to most other armies single shots and you get why I felt the need to keep the weapon on the lower side when blasts were concerned.


Its no secret that I'm a fan of the Taros campain's long barreled burst cannons. Thats why they are going on the Devilfish standard. The Hammerhead secondary system ones may also become the long barreled Varients.

The rending is to make up for the lack of burst cannons seen in most Tau armies these days. It makes the standard ones weaker than an assault cannon but more of them are able to be on the field. I'm thinking standard Burst cannons on infantry and Long Barreled on vehicles. Broadsides and commanders might be able to take the long Barreled varieties.

I dropped the drones on the hammerheads because they can't carry passengers and drones would still be considered passengers.

I'm still tweeking the DevilFish secondary systems options. They may end up not getting to take the new SMS system and instead be limited to drones only. I don't feel like it will come to this because most will want to use the extra drones in the Fire warriors to make them more survivable. I do think that the Marker drones will be able to be purchased with the vehicle.

The Sky Ray is becoming the new Pathfinder Or Ethereal transport. I'm taking out of the Heavy Support Slot and am making it a transport instead. Doing such will probably force me to somewhat limit the secondaries to mission specific options by what the units are able to take.



Could you explain the, "its not its own window in there anymore" statement? I think I understand but want to make sure of your meaning.

With the hammerhead railgun, part of the challenge is making it powerful enough to be worth taking over broadsides for its solid shot when compared impact to impact. After some consideration I'm making blowthrough (yeah piercing's probably the better name) a 5+ affair on a hit, rather than damage. thus, hit, and d6 armour pen, as normal, plus an extra d6; if the extra's 5 or 6, bonus glance/wound even if the first pen or wound didn't get through (it punched through something too inconsequential before ripping out the good bits). Keeps things simpler too.

The old long-barrel bursts weren't BAD, but it was hard to justify halving the range of a submunition, for half the average hits (not counting the chance the submunition wouldn't show up, but that was back in 3rd)... not a primary tank gun by any means. Wasn't THAT much cheaper for the loss of power and versatility so... But yeah, atop a devilfish I could see it working quite well.

My own increased range version is to keep them dead cheap. Bursts count as defensive, and the extra 6" makes a sizable difference in stealth suit survivability. your method should work better for vehicles, though doesn't do much for the lack on suits.

Our missiles fire 2 to everyone else's 1's, in the case of the missile pods, sure. However, their own launchers tend to have 1 better S and AP, an extra foot of range, and an alternate blast mode.


on the window comment: er, game I run often ends up with jello shots mid-battle, so my vocabulary may have taken a hit. I meant slot, not window. Skyray (current oldschool version) is a devilfish field upgrade, although it lowers the number of available transport models to 6 (good for a pathfinder team though or an ethereal), while the hammerhead gravitic launcher is the newer, nastier version.

I kinda like the hammerhead drones. the thing in older editions was I kept my tanks away, to make use of their range and avoid retaliatory lascannons (all 20 of them on the damn board) as best I could. So burst cannons were pretty useless, though SMS+targetlock got handy. drones though? split off and go harass things, or force a bit of a melee, speedbumps in general, so they were well loved in that regard.

Nova-Not saying that I'm going to do this, its just something that makes me smile in a Donnie Darko kinda way.

Take the sms vehicle pods as I've redesigned them and put them on the Pirahnas. Been thinking of writing the Pirahnas to where they can take either a secondary weapons system or the drone troops but if one takes a secondary in place of the drone then all would have to do so.

Two squadrons- One 4 strong squadron transporting drone troops, the second 2-3 strong armed with the sms and ........



Not sure if we are talking about the same weapon on the long barreled burst cannon. The one Ive been thinking about is: S6 AP4 Assault 3 but I'm thinking of tweeking the burst cannons to better fit the army. Tell me what you think of these profiles:

Long Barreled Burst Cannon- Range 30" S 5 AP 5 Assault 4, Rending

Battlesuit Burst Cannon-Range 18" S 5 AP 5 Assault 4, Rending

I would consider the nose cannon as the Long barreled burst cannon on the devifish.

I think you would see a lot of these combined with plasma rifles on the Crisis suits.

Well back to work on the Fan-dex. Catch ya later.

Yeah we're definitely talking about the same burst cannon. I didn't import it, though then again, with 'these models are already made' clauses, I guess it might not hurt so much to do so for those forgeworld weapons...

As I pointed out it seems our contrast for the burst cannon is that you split light and heavies basically; one for the suits and one for the hammerhead. This much I actually agree with: I cut my larger bursts out at some point and that was probably a mistake. Current version in my case for both suit and vehicles, however, are 24/5/5/a3. I'm a little wary of full rending: tau mains are already pretty nasty against armour...

Burst Cannon (long) 24" S5 AP5 Assault 3
Burst Cannon (point blank) 18" S5 AP5 Assault 3 Rending

How's that feel? Basically vehicle versions are better stablised and if a bit closer than maximum range can really tear into the target. Or would losing 1 shot instead of 6" make more sense? Its something I'm seeing a lot of in my own weapon list; Variable RoF.
(this is for my dex we're talking: I can see where you're going with your version and it does suit the feel you seem to be going for)

What's the price on your bursts though? I know you're edging towards more expensive units, so I probably shouldn't be rethinking my own ideas too much from reading yours...

There has been a lot of talk about killing things. Most guns seem to be getting an upgrade. While that is all well and good, I'm sometimes wondering what the goal of some of these dexs truly are.

Keeping scoring units on objectives after turn 5, limiting KPs, or tabling your opponent by turn 3?

I'm seeing a lot of offense, but not much in the way of defense being talked about. This and that about marker systems, improved guns, and drones for killing stuff. But what is going to keep our stuff from running off of objectives, or getting more survivable scoring units.

I understand that a prolific offense can be a good defense (killing the guy before he can even get to you), but I'm wondering if that is such a fun game all around, or what will you do if you have to go chasing after an objective in their territory?

I'm not saying anything already mentioned is bad/overpowered/undercosted etc. But I'm not seeing much focus on anything above just blowing the other guy to hell.

Nova-The Long Barreled BC and Basic gun drones would be included in the price of the Devilfish for the same price as current. Upgrading to sw flamer or fusion drones for 20pts. Upgrade to marker drones for 30pts. If I allow it the sms pods upgrade for devilfish will be at 35pts for the vehicle system. This price reflects the 2 drones being sacrificed to gain the weapon.

The LBBCs on the Hammerhead will be about 30pts and the SMS pods will be 50pts for the systems. The hammerheads initial price without guns will be about 80pts. That already included the Targeting Array.

I'm looking at about 12 pts for the crisis suit burst cannons.


About your Fan-dex
Go with your gut on the burst cannons. I modelled my ranges of of the pulse rifle and carbines and my rate of fire came from there being four barrels. It seemed, to me, easy to justify to the players.

Go back to your markerlights and then think how you want each unit to support the others. Then go with what you know is right for your philosophical veiw of what the Tau should be.
I will say that I don't think dropping the RoF is going to be an easy sell to Tau players. I'd suggest fully exploring the concept of your own words"I'm seeing a lot in my own weapon list; Variable RoF." Explore all of the ways a Variable RoF can mean.

Hope that helps.

@Jayden-May I refer you to the guerilla tactics rule I'm using in this fan-dex. If this isn't enough then how about the Sheild drones and how they provide area protection.

I'm already pushing the edge with those two. Anything beyond would be pure Gouda and I don't want to be suddenly dealing with the lactose intolerant.

I think that I've done enough to keep the Tau on the table.

I have one or two little tricks left that I'm reserving for specials and Leadership or Pyschic Nulling.....Yes I said it

@Focusedfire: I decided to stick to my guns as you suggested; 24/5/5/A3 is what they'll remain as. its a good, solid defensive weapon, and there's no shame in mounting them at their cost.

Jayden: That's mostly because guns are what I'm reviewing for the most part when there's more input on here. "is this too powerful? too cheap? too expensive? any reason for someone to actually bother taking it?"

There's a little of everything really. But all the mentioned changes might be making it seem like the firepower changes are more extreme than they actually are? In my case at least (focused is heading towards a more expensive 'eldar' style path, so his are nastier on average, but won't be near as cheap) most changes are on weapons no one took because they were A) too expensive and/or B) too weak or short ranged or <insert reason here> for what they did. Burst cannons, the xv-15 (remember them?) assault weapon being a primary tank gun and not a defensive weapon, for example. or its short range making the stealth field deceptively weak for what its actually costing you, and so on.

Defensively, the directions Tau can go from the original dex are somewhat limited. They're already a carapace army, they've a fair amount of pinning (yeah as if THAT works) weaponry, and the (weaker than it was but still there) JSJ system. Not to mention stealth, shield drones and other extra-wounds wargear (that's what a gun drone is: an extra 1 wound model with a gun), transports, and perhaps most importantly of all for the race: range.

Objectives: Yes, a good part of my dex ideas apply quite directly to objectives. Most of these are minor changes, but a handful of minor changes make all the difference sometimes. Lot of the ability to stay on objectives is from being a little cheaper (and thus can be fielded a little more)

Fire Warriors: A slight improvement in the guns, and the auto-inclusion (sure you pay for it but 'the leader comes with the team') seems to be a more common theme in 5th edition instead of "oh you can promote one to team leader" for troops. Having a few carbines automatically means you have photon grenades, but in their specific case a lot of the survivability and ability to stay on objectives comes from the fact that there'll be a handful less models assaulting them. They're marginally cheaper, but not to the level of guardsmen, who are a full 2/3 of their old cost AND get grenades atop that for free.

Kroot: Minimal changes. Updated to be move-through-cover instead of fieldcraft, and krootox are a bit cheaper so people will actually consider taking them: the kroot rifle's second shot is at 24" now. Shaper's a bit cheaper; 28 points for a normal kroot was just plain ridiculous. Now a base squad of shaper+9 kroot is 80 points.

Gun Drones are resilient little buggers, but if taken under 4 models they won't be scoring anymore. Until then they're cheap, can always regroup (even under 4 that is), and benefit a little less from markerlights. Jetpacks are superb for getting TO the objective, so if its in their territory you want it... what better troop to send than a deepstriker? I even had to bump their cost up.

KPs: Are the dumbest abomination of a bad excuse for a VP replacement I ever had the nausea to encounter. Whoever came up with that needs to be fired either for incompetance or extreme bias: Either that(or those) person(people) never played the game and shouldn't be involved in changing its ruleset, or play one of those armies that can field 1500 points in under 6 kill points without blowing off their own foot in actual effectiveness. Like Wazdakka... So yeah, several changes are, just as they've done in the IG codex, a weak (just like with the ig codex) attempt at reducing how many kp armies are worth. I mean, unless of course you're one of those that thinks it perfectly reasonable two vehicle gun drones are worth as much if killed as a full assault terminator squad costing over 25 times as much, or that killing all but one model of a 2000pt army is a crushing defeat for you, because that means you wiped 7 of his 8 kp while he took out a third of your army: a massive 9.

Tabling the opponent? not bloody likely. not my changes at least: most of them I'm honestly worried won't be enough (some of those 'upgrades' aren't cheap after all) to deal with mr 6 russ and 3 manricores over there.

The big problem with defensive options (I'll list my main defense ups at the end) is that tau are still not supposed to be much good at close combat. This is HUGE. you can't just burst into melee to tie up that giant squad for a turn or two; you get demolished and they get to fire on their turn. you can't just upgrade armour to 3+ they're not marines. And proportionally everyone's gained a lot of cover. But the tau had already most of the defenses they can reasonably have; its that all of a sudden the prices and defenses for what they can output has dropped for others.

Tau defenses (pre-existing)
JSJ
Stealth Field Generators
Ethereals (morale. yes, I know they're crap)
going Mech (nothing others can't do here)
Drones (additonal wounds with guns to boot)
Cover (everyone has tons of it now)

Tau defenses I've changed/added
Stealth Field: changes minimal here; mostly I clarified some situations, and -2 to the die roll in night fight (so still one of the weaker though most numerous stealth fields around) but since burst cannons got an extra 6" that's a big boost to them from 'a better gun'.
Ethereals: I made them not suck. This should make them worth buying.
Drones: Slightly better at close protection: a few new models or clarifications, and I gave shield drones a VERY special ability: after wounds are assigned, but before rolling saves, ONE wound per unit/model may be moved onto a shield drone (multiple drones don't stack this but since the drones pop more often it means you can keep doing it a little longer if you have more than one).
Drones that have lost their controllers may be banded together with a special issue system, but otherwise have default orders: Gun and Marker drones will get a single final shooting phase of double RoF and then escape as casualties: they expend their ammo and return to base. Shield drones automatically attach to a different unit if within 6", otherwise they also leave.
Deflector Drones: Special issue, big wide drones that allow rerolls of failed saves to the unit they protect. However they have to have the strongest wound assigned to them first (ie; if 5 bolters and a krak, guess who you have to give the krak save-or-die to). Ethereals can have one outside of the special issue!

Hammerhead rear armour is 11. that's a HUGE change. really huge.

Nova wrote:
Drones: Slightly better at close protection: a few new models or clarifications, and I gave shield drones a VERY special ability: after wounds are assigned, but before rolling saves, ONE wound per unit/model may be moved onto a shield drone (multiple drones don't stack this but since the drones pop more often it means you can keep doing it a little longer if you have more than one).

Hammerhead rear armour is 11. that's a HUGE change. really huge.

On this drone ability, clarification is needed.

Lets say you have 6 firewarriors and 2 shield drones. That unit takes 3 wounds. Two from bolters, one from a heavy bolter.
Normal 5th ed wound allocation says you can...
A) Put two wounds onto the shield drones and 1 onto the firewarriors.
B) You can put all three onto the firewarriors.

In your rules under option A, can you move the one wound from the firewarrior and give it to the shield drone? Thus making one shield drone take 1 save while the other has to take 2 (BTW this is illegal according to normal wound allocation rules in 5th ed.)

Option B is a little more straight forward as you just move two of the wounds from the firewarriors to each of the shield drones. But in reality this is no different than just normal wound allocation for units with different weapon loadouts.


As for the hammerhead, I took it one step further. All Tau vehicles have rear armor equal to their side armor.

I suppose its only fair that I throw out some of my own ideas that I've been working on. Maybe some are good, some might be bad. Lets see.

HQs -
Commander is still +1, same options as in current codex. New ability = You da man.
You da man = Nominate one non vehicle Tau unit. That unit becomes scoring.

Etherial - same stats, changed Inspring presence back to what it was in the first codex. Tau units may choose to reroll any made or failed moral checks. May take 1 Naascar advisor, may take 10 firewarrior honor guard.

Naascar - psycher from a few pages ago.

Shadowsun - Pretty much the same but stealth teams are moved to troops and drone squadrons are moved to Elite.

Farsight - pretty much the same as now but any crisis teams taken count as scoring units.

Uber name etherial - Same as Eitherial, +1 LD to all Tau units on the table, if LOS to any non vehicle unit that unit is scoring.
Elites -
Crisis suits swap S and T. So now they are T5 S4. Squad size now 1-4
Stealth suits go up to T4. Drop by 8 points each.

Troops -
Firewarriors gain both photon and emp grenades for free. Free Shas'ui, bonding knife, and networked marker light at 12 models. New ability - Your gun is your life = When charged Firewarriors with pulserifles or carbines make a single shooting attack at the iniative = to the highest model charging. Devilfish gain rear armor 11.

Kroot - Kroot stay the same except gain move through cover and stealth USR (drop fieldcraft)
Kroot hounds = If hounds are taken the kroot mob has fleet of foot while a single hound is alive.
Kroot OX = Monsterious creature, S6, T6, A3. May take up to 5. Kroot hounds and Kroot ox may not be taken in the same squad.

Fast Attack -
Drone squadrons - Gun drones, marker drones, and sniper drones all make up this squad. Drones become fearless.

Vespid - unit size 6-12. Upgrade 1 in 3 to have template weapons S3, AP3. Gain rending HTH attacks. Gain new ability = Hive mind = When counting losses due to shooting count all vespid on the table to determine if 25% casulties.

Pirahna - Same as before, minor points drop.

Pathfinders - Get firewarrior treatment. Skyray is upgraded devilfish (no longer Hammerhead chasis) mandatory transport.

Heavy support
Hammerheads - Points drop, no change in weapon options. Gain rear armor 12. Submunition round now ignores cover.

Broadsides - Gain relentless, T5, S4.


gun changes.

Not much.
All fusion blasters change to fusion cannons and are S8 AP1 melta 24" range.
Burst cannons improve to 24" range and count as defensive weapons on vehicles.
SeekerMissles have two profiles. S8 AP3 or S6 ap 4 template (small end goes closest to firing model.)

Markerlights - Not much changed. Still heavy. but all markerlights hit on a 2+. Markerlights stay on target until end of turn or unless used to fire a seeker.

Drone support systems. Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Crisis suits, stealth suits, broadsides suits may take up to 4 support drones. These are shield drones, medi drones, marker drones. No drone controller needed (that piece of wargear doesn't exist anymore), they are just part of the squad as if they were another member of the team.

Anyway, thats obviously not all of it, I left off a lot of the details, but thats the basics. For more detailed information, send my a PM if interested.

It addresses several key issues.

1 - survivability - with the Naacars powers, combined with medidrones, they are resilant against shooting.
2 - HTH deterant. Tau gunlines will really benefit from having Kroot ox hanging around to crush would be HTH attackers.
3 - KPs - Still kinda high, but there are fewer extra KP just floating around by loose gun drones.
4 - Tankshock - Now that all firewarriors and pathfinders have EMP grenades, DOG against shocking vehicles is a pretty good option.
5 - TLOS - Increasing the T of the suits will help against instant death hits and negate some firepower coming their way through the cracks in the buildings.

I've read through this stuff and dislike a lot of the changes you guys are making. The Tau currently aren't as underpowered as you guys are making them out to be. Their issues is that their army isn't made for 5th edition objectives. They don't need power increases across the board for all their things. Stealthfields that give -2 to the night fight roll while bumping their gun up to 24"? Seriously? Sure there are better stealthfields out there (like harlequins), but those are on ASSAULT troops who are extremely fragile, which stealth suits are not. Sure they aren't extremely durable, but they still have a 3+ save and the bonus of not having to get extremely close. All they need is maybe a bump down to 25 points each, or free targetting arrays. JSJ never got nerfed, its the same it always has been. The only difference is in the way terrain works so JSJ is used more for mobility as opposed to LULZ its Crystal Targetting Matrix all over again! At least the targetting matrix needed two pieces of terrain...

As for bumps to defensive weapons and rear armor of tau vehicles, there is no justification for these buffs. The tau were hardly the only ones hurt by the defensive weapon nerf, and they still have multi-trackers to make up for it. Giving the vehicle mounted burst cannons longer range is a much better idea. My issue is that there should be a penalty for moving more than 6". With regards to the rear armor buff, do you really think tau vehicles deserve this? Looking at the IG, only the short-ranged line busting leman russes get it. Tanks that pretty much NEED it. They are also a lot more armored in general. Tau vehicles aren't meant to be heavy duty spearhead tanks, so why should they be fortified like one? Nearly everyone else's tanks are vulnerable to being assaulted by marines and frag grenades, why should the tau get special treatment?

Reading what you guys are writing, you are just buffing everything across the board. While the tau need to be bumped in power, they shouldn't have an answer for everything because no other army does either. All the tau need is point reduction for their troops and markerlights and a few buffs or point reductions to units that are currently underwhleming. I think making the burst cannon rending and giving long barreled burst cannons to vehicles are steps in the right directions, not changing defensive weapons rules or overpowering stealth fields.

@Jayden: According to the rules its also illegal for a unit to regroup under 50% strength. Do I need to name a certain extremely common ability gained from items or just "being a marine"? Its also illegal for a vehicle to fire ordnance after moving 12". Lumbering Behemoth or the "not a weapon so its okay" Monolith should come to mind. Fast Attack isn't scoring, but Wazdakka and Marine Captains make bikers (many or one) a scoring unit. That's illegal: they're not scoring. Except that there's a special rule stating they ARE, and it IS legal.
That's what special rules and special equipment are there to do: bend and break the base.

Yes, what I'm having the shield drone do is a bypass of standard wound allocation (you make it sound so evil, too). Here's how it works more precisely:
AFTER normal wound allocation is done; roll the shield drone saves (if any wounds were actually allocated there) first; if there's a surviving shield drone, ONE wound on a not-shield-drone model in the unit can (if you want) be moved to the drone: it got in between a protected model and incoming shots (this is shooting only as you can imagine). Now roll saves on the rest of the wounds, as if the wound had always been on that shield drone.
Yes, its VERY effective in some circumstances, and not all that much in others; but its a defensive ability, 1/incoming volley, and the drone's 20 points now. Its not dissimilar to what it was able to do in 3rd, which was arbitrarily removed with no explanation or change to the actual cost/value of the thing in 4th..

@Psycheout: This isn't for dealing with 4th edition armies, or 4th edition armies in the 5th edition rules. By these standards the new imperial guard takes a very large tree and rams it up a good couple of the armies. I've certainly had my rear handed to me by a nob bikerz and IG. Codex creep is alive and well.

Stealth Fields: Actually the Tau's are basically the only one that doesn't outright halve the distance or worse at night. Grey Knight ones aren't, but then ALL their units have this, and they instead aren't affected by night-fight-piercing abilities, and barrages double their scatter instead of adding a single d6. One of the problems with 5th edition is that with TLOS all of a sudden the stealth field's average range when someone tries to shoot you is around 16 inches if you jumped back. Which is in the 'very easy to spot' region.
Bumping the units down in price IS an upgrade. A significant one. I make them more expensive instead. Just like making them slightly more survivable instead is too. But making them slightly more survivable doesn't increase their firepower, which making them cheaper would do (more wounds and shots coming out).

JSJ did take a hit: whether you consider it a proper one (I think so too, doesn't mean I have to like it) or not doesn't matter: you were PAYING for that ability, and its not the same anymore. Just making it cheaper doesn't have to be "the only fix". In fact it can overpower things more than you seem to realise.

Bumps to defensive weapons (all one of it) has large justification: the codex was written back when heavy bolters, multilasers, and other such weapons were defensive. There's no reason, nor excuse, for the burst cannon to be on a vehicle if it isn't a defensive weapon. But by the "S4 or lower that's it nothing else matters" rule change, the pulse PISTOL is a primary, not defensive, weapon.

For rear armour on one tank? There's plenty even if we keep real life considerations out of it. Things like krak grenades are more common now, and melee hits them in the rear automatically except for all the walkers. Demolishers have it, Land Raiders and Monoliths have far more, Drop Pods have 12, most walkers are functionally 11 or more unless *shot* from the back, and that "5 points for the whole squad" krak grenade (let's not even talk meltas) still lets them waste it instantly as soon as they get close enough. It pays for it. That's all it has to do. Everyone's magically striking your rear, you adapt, and improve your defenses. Technically that's an abstraction of them getting onto/into weaker points and dumping their charges in the joints, engines, etc, well, surprise, so's improving one's vehicles to counter that.

You're right tau weren't the only ones hurt by this; but the 5th ed codices so far compensate either with improvements or points across the board: IG have a good 20+% more points left over with the same army they used to field before, and FoC worries have all but vaporised for their armour. Burst cannons defensive and one point of armour on one flank of one vehicle isn't all that terrible: as long as one has to pay for it in points there's no real argument against it.

An S4 Rending burst cannon would actually be MORE powerful than S5 defensive. It would tear through more models, more vehicles, being able to harm things the 5 can't way more easily (by, say, negating regular armour save on that carnifex if it rolls a 6, which the S5 version already needs to do without negating that save). When changing anything you have to look at what that change actually MEANS to the model and army's performance. Rending and extra shots is a much larger change than just 6" of range.

Many weapons and models in the tau, either thanks to bad wording or terrible design flaws, were not just "not worth taking", but actively shooting yourself in the foot. Vespid and Ethereals for example. Most of the changes are there for that. Rail Rifles because of their FoC positions/eating. Marker Drones. Even the hammerhead railgun: in 5th ed the cost of that thing compared to what artillery 3/4 its price or cheaper, and squadronable, can do. That Medusa siege cannon (36" will cover most of the board if you place it right) is 10 in a large blast, compared to the railgun that only gets that strong in single-target, single-shot mode.

Yes, the 5th ed changes also took their toll. YES, they take their toll on most armies to varying degrees. But all the other armies are getting their fixes slowly, or similar threads/codices to this, so why would the Tau be the only ones left behind?

for the love of god help us in close combat! My tau are always creamed by my friends Grey Knight and noes! the swords hurt :( make the kroot better, and give them a better armor save at least, cause i kinda want to play an all kroot mercs. army too.

Not really something we should do...

But I CAN tell you one great way to survive it a lot better: an extra 6" to the table. or playing up the long side (they'll have plenty of cover on the thin side like that anyways).

See, the problem's the addition of the running for the most part. One of the few (very few compared to armies that do want to melee) changes that positively affected the Tau is the loss of "consolidate into next unit: can't be shot at for 5 turns as you decimate one each and every time" things like massive jetbike warlock squads and death companies were so popular for.

But instead everyone GETS to the tau faster instead. this affects IG also, but ig are a little better in melee.

Seriously though; 6" or a foot to the table; for friendly games (obviously don't be SNEAKING this on an opponent, they should know), really makes a difference. throw in an extra, light, terrain piece to sweeten the deal at worst.

"2nd turn at the LATEST" assaults are as, if not more, boring to a tau player as "oh we shoot them for a few turns" can be to those dire avengers that lost their transport.

Nova wrote:@Jayden: According to the rules its also illegal for a unit to regroup under 50% strength. Do I need to name a certain extremely common ability gained from items or just "being a marine"? Its also illegal for a vehicle to fire ordnance after moving 12". Lumbering Behemoth or the "not a weapon so its okay" Monolith should come to mind. Fast Attack isn't scoring, but Wazdakka and Marine Captains make bikers (many or one) a scoring unit. That's illegal: they're not scoring. Except that there's a special rule stating they ARE, and it IS legal.
That's what special rules and special equipment are there to do: bend and break the base.

Yes, what I'm having the shield drone do is a bypass of standard wound allocation (you make it sound so evil, too). Here's how it works more precisely:
AFTER normal wound allocation is done; roll the shield drone saves (if any wounds were actually allocated there) first; if there's a surviving shield drone, ONE wound on a not-shield-drone model in the unit can (if you want) be moved to the drone: it got in between a protected model and incoming shots (this is shooting only as you can imagine). Now roll saves on the rest of the wounds, as if the wound had always been on that shield drone.
Yes, its VERY effective in some circumstances, and not all that much in others; but its a defensive ability, 1/incoming volley, and the drone's 20 points now. Its not dissimilar to what it was able to do in 3rd, which was arbitrarily removed with no explanation or change to the actual cost/value of the thing in 4th..

Dude, I was just asking if that was how it worked. Don't get so defensive. Under normal circumstances you cannot allocate a second wound to a model until all other models have one. This happens before any saves are taken because all saves happen at the same time. Your method effectively gives the drone two saving throw periods. One for any wounds assigned to it, but before anyone else makes any save attempts. Then a second taken at the same time as everybody else as long as you passed on a second wound. Thats more than just a little different operation or shuffle of hits, thats why I asked if I understood how you envisioned it working. Perhaps the word illegal seemed a little strong, but hell, lots of things are illegal until a special rule makes it not. I didn't say it was good/bad/or indifferent, I just asked if I was correct on how it worked.

huh? Sorry if that sounded offended/angry, I was just giving some examples. It did seem like you were saying 'illegal' in a "you can't make a rule like this" which struck me as rather... odd, thus my explanation.

But yes, it effectively causes a second save period. I figure complexity wise that's not really any worse than how one already splits the hits into the 'all the same' and 'this one's different' models for saves, though if it seems like a particular annoyance timewise,etc do say so. I've gone through a LOT of revisions over most of my stuff because of such considerations: wake up and reread the next morning and go "... okay that just sounds like a chore"...

@Psychout: Just an fyi, Orks point for point can out shoot the tau.... thats a problem. This takes into acount me running from my side into a hail of fire warrior shots staying 1 inch out of the rapid fire and still out shooting them.

If you needed a quick change for Tau it would be points drop BS4 fire warriors and the re installment of Aun'shi(Cause yah awesome) to say the least(very least). I agree with allot that has been said on this thread because I think the Tau as written seem to me like they came in with a really cool basic tactic Marker lights, and it got over worked and strained and then they justify not doing other things to the Tau cause the marker light does so much even though you only use it for a couple things tops. Most of the time its for dropping the ungodly cover saves being given out like candy in 5th ed.

I don't play Tau anymore, I played only small games right as 4th came out with a single battleforce. I quit playing when I moved away from people who did. But playing again with 5th ed Orks I can see allot of flaws with Tau or changes that I think should be made.

Edit:Spelling fix.

I don't think the tau need BS increases across the board, just cheaper and more accessible markerlights. I feel this keeps up with the theme of the tau working together for the greater good, as well as representing them using technology to overcome their physical inferiority. While yes the ork shoota is way too good for its price, lets not make the same mistake again. Another improvement may be to make an item or weapon to slow down the enemy. Limit them to force players to use it strategically, but still give the tau more ability to avoid combats. Tau players should NOT however, be able to easily avoid all combat. There are assaulting armies out there that NEED to be in assault to do damage, and it won't make it a fun game for your opponent if you can just evade him the whole time. Don't act like the new IG codex is that overpowered either. The only things that got cheaper were the basic guardsmen (and deservedly so). While yes LRs can be squadroned to fit a bunch in, they've become more expensive and have to deal with squadron rules. Orders are cool, but nearly as game breaking as people make them out to be. The IG have gotten better, but they were pretty bad to begin with. Basically what I'm trying to say is, stick with the tau theme and don't go overboard buffing things because you don't like the way they work currently. The point of making a fandex is for people to use in friendly games and are unsatisfied by the current one. Try to make more cool options as opposed to just buffs across the board.

CSM -BS4 across the board
Necrons -BS4 across the board
SM(and most chapters) -BS4 across
GK -BS4 across
SoB -BS4 across
Eldar -BS4 across
DE -BS4 across

So Tau the 'Shooty' army I think should be BS4.

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:CSM -BS4 across the board
Necrons -BS4 across the board
SM(and most chapters) -BS4 across
GK -BS4 across
SoB -BS4 across
Eldar -BS4 across
DE -BS4 across

So Tau the 'Shooty' army I think should be BS4.

Thats the problem. BS4 is so damn common its like its the default now a days. Going by that list, Tau should probably be BS5 across the board if they are in fact the premier shooty army.

No keeping the Markerlight option to up the BS to 5 is what makes them the shooty army, in my eyes at least.

Edit: which is why 4 = basic + markerlight = Tau tech to make them better shots = fluff + Game fits.

I was also toying with giving fire warriors targeters (I don't have the codex in front of me they may already have this as an option but this would seem to fit nie with them and could be built in when you pay for them)

@psyche I'm not entirely certain you understand the full ramifications of what you're suggesting in comparison to some of the stuff we're doing. For example, the STANDARD, trained military BS is supposed to be 3. unfortunately everyone and their mother has 4 because everyone, their mother, their emperor, his dog and its four primarchs are "ancient and elite and powerful", which to be honest just gets dumb after a while. An alternative manner is what we seem to mostly be doing; to make the weapons wielded slightly more efficient. AP can be a factor of accuracy for example, as can power. Range is also a method of shootiness; if I can hit you 50% of the time at half again the range of your guns, then until you're in range, you're at my mercy, even though you hit 66.6% once in range. Unless of course you're on a 6x4 board with rules optimized for first or second turn assault.

I experimented with 'slow downs' a little, but a lot of the ways of getting that in without either a high risk of people 'forgetting' or abusing, are pretty much too convoluted for the sake of a good, streamlined ruleset (and we can all agree 40k doesn't need much more potholes in the rules in that manner). A big problem is that many of the available smooth and effective methods to pull this off are easily avoided, countered or ignored. "treat as if moving through difficult terrain" means little to jump packs, who jump over the 'tar pit' and only need to worry about their landing.

Markerlight system I DID revamp. its a lot more accessible, though not cheaper; and works far more in a theme of working together than the current "a pathfinder squad sticks a couple of lights, and then the next 2-3 units expend the counters" system it curently is. More Tauy: most units have ONE in the squad, save for pathfinders (and those are elites and more expensive in my dex), and everyone firing together is what keeps the thing effective.

Ig codex: actually a lot more than that got cheaper. Infantry being cheaper means now you can use those points for two MoOs, for two more extremely accurate (just use a mortar and barrage off of it it would appear) earthshakers. HWS are a lot cheaper, Vendetta are triple twinlinked las at 130pts apiece, hellhounds are now FAST, russ may have gotten more expensive (barely) but now can fire ordnance on the move along with other weapons, everyone's got frags and/or smoke launchers, etc etc for free or included in their point-cost lowering, basilisk is same cost as old indirect version, as its now mandatory indirect, but again, free smoke launchers, comes in squadrons too, which when combined with troop costs means you CAN stick an extra 2ish vehicles in your army. Orders help a lot more than some like to claim, even if not 'uber'.

Like it or not, the points saved almost all go into templates, blasts, large blasts or anti-tank (rather redundant with the new artilleries). they needed the boost, no doubt about it, but it does show that if this is what they were brought to, and the marines were bought to, and the orks were brought to, again, in several cases with pretty big changes and tweaks to the armies, no reason tau have to stay "the exact same but a big cheaper". FoC is still a consideration, units and weapons that are useless and/or too pointlessly expensive need to be made worth taking (that's called giving options: if the gear's already there, step one is making it worth it, instead of "new things"), and improving the technology and combined-arms value of the tau IS the tau theme and way of upgrading things.

Unless of course you wanna argue that ethereals would be worth taking if they were cheaper (I still wouldn't want to risk it as they are at 5 points for the model), or vespid, or that burst cannons used by XV15 moving at full speed should be difficult for something a few hundred times their mass to use.

A lot of those "buffs" are options... and a lot of those options are "buffs". I'm not really sure how I can get the point across better: To make useless parts of the codex useful IS to make multiple buffs, and to add new weapons or modes or systems IS to add options. To say "no scrap that just give more cheaper markerlights and lower costs and better BS" IS to give massive, simple buffs across the board, without actually fixing any of the issues (like the worthlessness of ethereals and vespid). To say "no, all these ideas are rubbish, offer options instead" takes that a step further into nearly blind.

@JohnnyPsycheOut- You can't handle new things with the same ol same ol. You want cheaper markers But lets take a look at what your proposing and see some of the flaws.

1)Markers drop in points but still cost and the more models firing them equals less actual shots doing damage.

2)Then you'd ask for more access to teams that come equipped. Once again points spent on units not doing any real damage.

3)Then you come to what we were saying about revamping the Markers. But in order to be really effective at compensating for the Coversave bonanza that is 5th they have to go up in cost considrably. More points on markers means less guns doing actual damage.

So, when confronted with not having enough guns doing damage, "What do you do?" You up the capabilities of the weapons.


You haven't really looked at the philosophy that I'm approaching this Fan-dex from if you think that I'm over-powering this army.

1)The philosophy I'm using starts with looking at the Tau Empire from a galactic point of view. The Tau have a very small empire and as such should never use personel in an attrition style of warfare. They are relatively few in number when compared to the Tyranids, Orks, Ig, and even Necrons. This should be reflected in the model count on the table, in my eyes. They should field more models tham SMs and Eldar. About the same as SoB. And less than Hoarde/swarm armies.

2)The Tau are also a race focused upon balance. Yet they disdain close combat which is one half of the available means to fight their wars. This means that their balanced shooting should be on the upper end of what would be normal and it should be with weapons that are close to, if not, equaling the top weapons available to any other armies.

3)Tau are a tech based race and it should show more, IMO. I'm looking at dropping Fire caste count but upping drone count. This will still be expensive.

Combine these things and you'll see that if your dopping the model count, or just the number of shooting models, even a little bit then you have to balance with stronger weapons whether it is better BS, Higher RoF, or higher strength lower AP. This is because of the quirks in 5th and the new codices have us seeing things that shouldn't happen. Things like:


1)Orks out shooting Tau.

2)IG winning against Tau with armies that have lower model counts.

3)Necrons having more battlefield manuverability.

4)Space marines with a higher volume of fire than tau.

5)...............A long list of things that went out of whack with 5th ed rules. The ones I will point out is the effective shrinking of the board because of the run rule. Bad enough that avg infantry once assaulting a Tau skimmer can some how run with a flying jet powered vehicle. Now in 5th they some how are able to always be on rear armour and can cross the table in much less time thereby reducing the chance of being able to clear an escape route through the advancing wall.


I am attempting to write a fandex that will address these things while staying with the philosophy of less fire warriors on the field without turning into Shooty Eldar.

There are several other factors to consider such as alien auxilla and how they affect the balance. Or some of the quirky weapons rules that were set in 3rd&4th ed to tone down weapons that were to powerful when combined with markerlights in that edition. Now these weapons would be perfectly balanced if they more closely matched their equivalents from other armies. I haven't even gotten into Lash, Psychic choir, or the number of ld 10/fearless armies out their.

When you say the Tau should not have an answer for everything because other armies don't, IMO, you are wrong. Every army is designed with the ability to counter every other army no matter the build. Mismatched builds lead to lopsided games but usually balanced builds do well against one another. Now this isn't counting updated versus outdated codices. What I'm trying to say that when all armies are 5th edition current then they should have the ability to have a build that can answer whatever build the other army is running.


I assure you for every improvement their will be a balancing of them with points cost. I am working to make this fan-dex fun, flexible, and with more than just one viable build. Your comment about the Guerilla tactics rule doesn't even come close to the reality of what is occuring. It gives the Tau an extra turn of shooting with a bunch of balancing modifiers. These units will be easy to trap using multiple squads, which is what it should take. One squad should not be able to trap an army.



Edited for dropped sentences

@R4nd0m- Don't want the Targeters on the Average Fire warrior. There has to be a skill progression. It is one of the things that I HAD to rework to make sense.

Go back and look at my reference sheet.

Basic FW are BS 3.
Then when they make it to battlesuit pilot they get the Targeting array built-in. Now, because of the difference between battlesuit and regualr infantry I couldn't justify bumping their natural ability. They have to take time to get aquaitnted with the systems.
So Basic battle suit BS 4.
Now once fully aquainted/experienced then they get a natural bs bump.
Shas'vre BS 5.
The next step is learning to better lead and to master little tricks of the suit survivability. BS doesn't go up but leadership and survivability do.
Shas'El Stay BS 5 But are the Normal Leaders.
Tau rank structure had to many steps for their fluff so instead of shas'O and then hero I combined them.
So Shas'O s are the Special Characters with BS 6 and a few other special abilities. Note that Farsight and the other Two battlesuit Shas'o level commanders will be the only battles suit to have initiative better than 3.(Farsight may bump his army by giving them furious assault but it will come at a price.)

I was really struggling on the Battlesuit stats untill I decided to streamline the Tau rank structure.

I get the targeter thing I was just thinking outloud it was more a fluff thing then anything.

So the progression is

'Saal Cadet -not fielded game wise(fluff wise its the new guys on the field)
'La Warrior BS3.
'Ui Veteran BS4 for the suit(stealth/crisis/broadside) and still BS3 for the fire warrior?
'Vre Hero suit(stealth/crisis/broadside) BS5
'El Knight(still don't quiet get this title fluff wise seems out of place I guess they needed something before commander?) BS5
'O will be BS6 this being the commanders and characters.
(Sorry for repeating it I am just clarifying it for myself. If it's right.)

Yep, you got it. This with Markers being able to boost bs by +1 and only +1 per marked unit per turn means that they will live up to their fluff of the Valkeries mark.

Thing is by doing this the models are getting more expensive on thier base cost which means fewer elite models on the field and more Fire Warriors and Drones.

This means that the Elites weapons need to do more damage. Consider their current costing to overcosting this shouldn't be to unbearable or overly powerful.

I will admit to thinking of taking the new IG tank squadrons idea and tweeking it for the Tau. This combined with everything else should be just about right.

People are proposing better Tau tanks because the Tau skimmers are very expensive and have lost a lot of capability compared to 4e.

Alternatively, make them a bit cheaper and a bit better and they should balance.

I'm not in favour of rear armour 11 because IMO it's a Tau general's job to keep his vehicles out of melee, rather than rely on them being better at surviving it. (Same for troops, really.)

Markerlights just need to be made cheaper and better, to compensate for the amount of cover and higher speed of enemies now.

Remember that Tau are a shooting only army and really need to be better at shooting than any other army.

I think you guys missed a couple of my points. I agree with buffing things like vespids and ethreals to make them actually viable. What I don't agree with is overpowering things. Things like hammerheads and crisis suits don't need buffs only some point tweaking. I haven't actually read any of your 'dexes so I don't know the big picture, only what you guys have been saying here, so maybe I'm missing important information. The tau really shouldn't be able to stand face to face and outshoot the IG. The IG is the big lumbering beast that relies on sheer mass of firepower to win. The tau should be much more manueverable and rely on mobility and focused fire as opposed to sheer firepower. Cheaper devilfishes encourage this, and go along with the current rules trend.

One of my good friends is a tau player that I used to stomp all over in 4th edition, but now in 5th he has gotten better and makes for some very competitive games. I can assure you that tau aren't as bad as you're making them out to be. They aren't as forgiving as they used to be, but they really have the ability to get firepower where they need it to be 2nd only to eldar.

JourneyPsykcheOut-Still missing the point. I've never said they were bad. Just badly written. That combined with things that have become problematic and very illogical units are my primary motivators for writing this.

I have no doubt that I could bring my Ninja Tau and beat you in a game. Then you could also turn around and beat me the next game. It has more to do that the Tau army doesn't really work as designed in 5th. The only exception to this being the Ninja Tau list. When other armies are recieving 4-5 viable builds of completely different styles, I begin to look for what could be done to do the same with the Tau.

I'm going for viable Meq Tau/drone lower model count,
Alien Auxilla/higher model count,
Mechanized
and Stealth/scouting armies.

And of course the mainstream balanced Tau army.

Gotta go, things call IRL


Edited in the balanced army line

Given all the feedback I'll bump the rear back down to 10, though I'll point out I've always found that high a difference to be rather ridiculous: Sure its a little thinner in the sides and rear than front on modern vehicles, but still not to a level where you can annihilate the entire vehicle with weapons that harmlessly bounce off the front... Point cost will be going down further, however: The cost of a normal loadout: Rail/SMS/Multi/D.Pod having been exactly the same (D.Pod is FAR more valuable than it used to; I had to triple the cost) before dropping it back.

Now, what I think you're still missing, psyche, is that Making something (a little) more powerful or effective is effectively the same, or depending on how much more powerful, WEAKER, than just dropping the point cost. What it does affect is a model's versatility: An S4 gun can't affect the same range of targets quite as well as S5. S5 can strike AV11, can PENETRATE AV10, and can affect a wraithlord, for example, as well as most tyranid biotitans.

But what it doesn't change is that you have a single wound model standing there, where if you instead dropped the point cost, you'd have that much more (percentage) of said model (and thus said gun) available. The IG cost change for example has increased available lasguns by 50% for the same points: 3 TIMES the firepower they had between 12" and 24" on a successful first/second rank order! Sure its lasguns, but its still a spectacular boost. As its a single extra shot this falls to 225% in rapidfire range, but as long as you're firing it at something you can affect already, you can see this IS a significant improvement.

The other attached benefit is that extra models mean redundancy and survival: Losing a Stealth Suit means 3 less pulse shots coming out, from a single wound, while losing a regular fire warrior means one (two within 12" normally, 15" for me) less shot instead, and he was 1/3 the price (now about 29%). Those extra models mean extra attacks, extra protection for the 'specials', something just turning rapid-fire into 'assault 2' just doesn't do.

As for crisis: Even veteran guardsmen have BS4. Just integrating the targetting array: an option/upgrade that was already existing for the Tau, and making the crisis BS4 is far from gamebreaking, especially since even the cost is going up to compensate.

Maneuverability is, due to this being a turn based game, limited in how one can upgrade it. Pop out in surprise, Fire, hop in the fish, and move away isn't quite as effective when the hop-in-fish and move-away is done NEXT turn after they fire back, blow the fish and half the squad AND have time to close into assault and clobber your squad. A little bit of range (like the 3" on the rapidfire of pulse rifles, or the 6" on the S5 burst cannons, in my case) helps with that. Making bursts defensive ALSO helps with that; allowing our tanks to fire a little bit more on the move if that's what they equipped: All this does is allow our TANKS to fire their burst cannons when moving 12", just like the XV15 and XV25 are capable of doing. It might be S5 but it should be pretty obvious the burst is at worst no harder to handle than a storm bolter (honestly multilasers should be getting this sort of treatment too: the defensive/not-defensive system really needs work in the base rules)

You can stay there and shoot, but now you're being outgunned. Or you can fire at the edge of range and move out and run, but you're being outmaneuvered... AND outgunned. Right now my own warriors are being out-FoF'd by the spectacular work of cheap valkyries and vendetta, which move faster, can drop while moving flat-out, and being IG does 'out-mass' one's ability to fire. Just making the transport cheaper won't make it more maneuverable, when the transports of others are now outrunning AND outgunning it, for not that much more expensive. Sure the lasguns only kill 2, maybe 3 of my 12 warriors: but now they get assaulted or someone's fragging the devilfish: its not like I can outrun an 18" paradrop in a single turn.

Unless you dropped the point costs enough to have extra models, which is what you suggest. But then that's not just extra firepower; that's extra wounds, extra space for seekers and drones, and so on.

First, Nova and Focusedfire I really enjoy the work you guys have put in. Perhaps I missed it in the last several pages of fandex, but are markerlights still hvy 1?

If so thats fine, makes no difference to me, but what if they were assult 1? Making the squads more mobile. Just an idea.

Casper-Back on page 21. I set them at Range 24" assault 1.

I could leave them at their current profile with the guerilla tactics rule but think the idea of them slightly in front of the army running into position and firing is more engaging to the players.

I'm still thinking the weapon type over. I've even considered making the markers even a little more expensive and giving them the Rapidfire profile to represent the greater accuracy able to be gained by closing with the enemy.

Hhmmm....The more I think about it the more I like the Rapidfire markerlight.

focusedfire wrote:


1)Orks out shooting Tau.

2)IG winning against Tau with armies that have lower model counts.

3)Necrons having more battlefield manuverability.

4)Space marines with a higher volume of fire than tau.

5)...............A long list of things that went out of whack with 5th ed rules. The ones I will point out is the effective shrinking of the board because of the run rule. Bad enough that avg infantry once assaulting a Tau skimmer can some how run with a flying jet powered vehicle. Now in 5th they some how are able to always be on rear armour and can cross the table in much less time thereby reducing the chance of being able to clear an escape route through the advancing wall.

1.) lol. I'm building one of those ork armies! Tau are more well rounded though.

2.) Tau pwn the current IG dex. The 5th ed dex gives IG some nice tricks against tau but tau still are one of the guards toughest opponents.

3.) What the heck are youtalking about?! Necrons don't have better anything than anyone! (even when they do, they don't)

4.) no. no no no no no. no. no no no. no. and, for the record, no. Tau have longer range, better str guns, better guns, and crisis suits. Space marines have better mobility.

5.) are you still crying about run? CHANGE YOUR TACTICS TAU ARE NOT A STATIC ARMY IN 5TH ED.

As I have stated before I really think that the Tau have a strong Dex, maybe not against the tournament metagame, but a very strong dex that stands up well against just about everything out there. I count several Tau players in my area who deal with CSM tourney lists (twin lash/nurgle goons/obbles etc) handily and have no issue with nob bikers either. Will you post your army list and a breif synopsis of how you play it? I believe that the problem lies there.

Epilouge: I apologize for calling you out in this fashion but I think you are absolutely wrong about the Tau and I really don't understand where you are coming from most of the time. I think many people on this site could help you play competitively in 5th ed.

Huh. I hadn't noticed you doing that. Its what I made my Pathfinder markerlights: others are 36" heavy 1, though given the system its not as bad for them to be so.

Casper: Basically both Focusedfire and I are making a seperate one each. They'll probably combine into a giant Wraithlord, wielding some flaming dreadnought close-combat weapon of justice, in the end, but till then they should provide two alternative methods of making the tau quite competitive, perhaps even able to stand up to the new IG and the like (well, if the IG player knows what he's doing of course.)

@Kungfu:
1) that's already reason enough to worry given the orks are also capable of outmaneuvering and most DEFINITELY out-melee.

2) you may wish to play against good IG players. I'd argue the opposite: they didn't get that many new tricks, just a whole lot of new blast templates to chuck around. Hydra are quite nice, and you don't really need the earthshaker's range on most games; Griffons are cheap submunition blasts that ignore cover and hit vehicles a little harder, and a manticore can utterly wreck an army: incredible for wrecking squads of light vehicles and/or the suits or people around them: sure battlesuits get their armour save, but its still instant deaths all over. Enough scatter and they may just take out two FW or a warrior and kroot (or drone) squad with one rocket. And the massed lasrifle fire hurts more than the IG opponent likes to pretend it does. no one comes out of 29 incoming las shots unharmed if it can hurt'em: better than a krak missile against a battlesuit team.

3) its very rare and specific instances so I wouldn't say necrons can do it in general, so I'll side with you on that one. However wraiths can run now, and that's not fun at all.

4) this is iffy. compared to the old las/plas squads marines I'd say probably lost some of their weight-of-fire when compared to Tau. However, they've an easier time getting to melee, have free grenades all over the place, and some of their units like sternguard CAN in fact outshoot equivalent tau quite easily. Tacmarines? no, you're right... but other things? Besides, you'll probably have maxed out bike squad as troops instead of one of the tac squads.

5) Tau are less mobile, if they wanna keep shooting, than they used to be. this is a valid complaint. The table certainly hasn't gotten any bigger, but everyone gets to you for assault faster. Except some of chaos; I think they're no longer able to make EVERYONE IN THE ARMY INFILTRATE... There's also more cover all around: a Helios against some termies gets wrecked where it stands instead of getting at least one average kill, when all of a sudden they lose the 2+ but still get a 4+ cover. Markerlights as they are? getting stretched pretty thin... and that's a lot of not-guns to be using for all this.

Its certainly not that the tau are unplayable. you can even win some friendly games. But compared to the new orks, marines, and IG, well, we're just wanting to equal the playing field.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

2.) Tau pwn the current IG dex. The 5th ed dex gives IG some nice tricks against tau but tau still are one of the guards toughest opponents.

Just wait until IG gets a few months under its belt. Psychic Choirs, chimmera/vendetta spam, the Guard can build a very focused army right now that easily pummels the Tau list and has a better than good chance against anything else. The new IG codex is just plain scary.

3.) What the heck are youtalking about?! Necrons don't have better anything than anyone! (even when they do, they don't)

If you ignore things like C'tan and Monoliths in your list, you can have teleporting HQ and their attached immortals. A gross number of Destroyers, and untold numbers of scarbs that all move like bikes. That's what he meant by battlefield mobility.

4.) no. no no no no no. no. no no no. no. and, for the record, no. Tau have longer range, better str guns, better guns, and crisis suits. Space marines have better mobility.

You sure about that? A S4 bolter doesn't mean squat when the ammo wounds anything on a 2+. Heavy 2 S8 AP3 48" range missiles. S6 AP4 24" heavy 4 rending. S5 AP4 heavy 3 36" S6 AP3 templates. S10 large blast at 24 (unlimited range from the commander). S5 large blasts from whirlys. S7 ap2 small blast from plasma cannons. Do I need to list more? The marine army is massively effective at long range and better BS to boot When a table is only 48" wide and 72" long, a 36-48" range gun is probably more than you will ever need. Especially if your playing with a good bit of terrain. Only the Pulse rifle at 30" and S5 is better than the marine line gun. However I'll take heavy bolters over burst cannons any day. I'll take assault cannons over SMS systems. I'll take marine plasma (even if it over heats) over tau plasma, especially when looking at plasma cannons. I'll take missile launchers over rail rifles. The Tau railgun is awesome. Yes it is. But if you go all hammerheads thats only 3 total. Yeah you can get 9 by going all broadsides, but marines can take a stupid number of melta weapons. S8 AP1 Good enough for most insta-killing and better than rail guns at half range.

5.) are you still crying about run? CHANGE YOUR TACTICS TAU ARE NOT A STATIC ARMY IN 5TH ED.

Run/outflank/shorter starting distances. All these things help shrink the table, but above all run is huge. So Tau can't be static anymore, but they can't get the hell out of the way anymore either. If the other guy capitalizes on his mobility, the Tau quickly runs out of room to escape too. Run is a big deal when you die at the mere thought of HTH, and it also is a big deal when you can no longer take advantage of our supposedly longer range guns because the other guy is already in your face by turn 2.

BTW. I'm not saying Tau are bottom rung army. Sure they can compete, maybe even make the game close. But they won't be winning any national tournaments any time soon. Its even iffy on the local tournament scene. Competing is not the same as dominating, which is what you need to win tournaments. And while the tournament scene may not matter one fig to you (you meaning generic you, anybody out there reading this), it does mean something to others and truth be told is a good way of measuring the over all effectiveness of an army.

@Kung-fu-To address my statements on numbers 3 and 4.


3)Deepstriking monoliths transports, Teleportation for total range of 24"+ for 1 squad per monolith, Jetbike wraith and destroyers. Necrons can bounce all over the field with the right build. This represents more manuvuerability than anything the Tau have with the possible exception of using Ninja Tau to bring units in where needed.

4)Even with having to close, the same points in marines out perform the same4 points in fire warriors. But that is not what I'm talking about. I'm reffering to the use of the 2-3 Landspeeder squadrons in a list along with the troops and three tanks. Those speeder squadrons tip the number of shots per turn at range into the SMs favour. Top that off with their average vehicle having more rounds fired per turn and you begin to get the idea.


Now as to number 5) and your reply. You don't see me starting threads asking how to beat certain armies or lists. That is because I know how to win and win I do. Still better than 50% wins in 5th edition. The other reason I don't start such threads is because I know how to adapt when the Meta-game shifts. You give me any army and within a couple of games I'll figure out a way to win with them. I can beat Tau with the current IG. With the next book coming out this week I think the IG will be able table them if the Tau player isn't careful.

Sorry, if this sounds like I'm calling you out but seriously, Win a game against Tau with IG before lecturing me with the play better line. My percentages are fine, thank you for the concern.


Now, You may ask why I'm writing a Fan-dex if they still win well. I have stated all along to this question that I am looking to the future when such will be needed and am voicing what I'd like to see for my favorite army. I, also, am writing this dex because the wargear wording is a travesty in the current one. The wording is fully half of my motivation for attempting this task. Finally, I'd like to have a bit more build flexibility while retaining a balanced and effective army.

@Nova-What do you think of the simple change to the current GW codex marker system by just making the markers rapid fire 24" or 30"?

Think about that combined with the guerilla tactics rule.

Which version sounds more appropriate?

I may mix the ideas, also. Rapidfire markers would nicely represent the Tau becoming deadlier as you move into their fields of fire.

On the run? 24" for non-vehicles definitely. That's what I took down the pathfinder lights to.

The rapid-fire though, I really don't know. Its not like you're firing more or being more accurate: I view the markerlight use as holding it over a couple of seconds just to get the normal telemetry; its probably not gonna double in effectiveness just from getting closer.

I can tell you one thing that's no longer in my codex since I rewrote the system for my own: Xv8 and 88 suits had an option of their own: The Multilight: Took up an actual battlesuit slot (the secondary slot for broadsides, but that of course twinlinked it), a Heavy 2 30" markerlight. Effectively a markerlight array with multiple independant lights and datafeeds, allowing an entire squad, not just a single model, to have full markerlight data networked out about it: represented by the potential for two markers from a single suit. Not to mention when placed on an XV84.... yeah...

Feel free to take and build from that, it was special issue for me back then though. But a designated markerlight suit wouldn't necessarily be bad: the markerlight rewrite in my case has pretty much turned the Tetra into an AWACS, after all.

But for regular troops on the ground, I'd keep away from the markerlight: a team leader with an assault markerlight could combine it with, say, a Multitracker, or, if you don't intend or think you'll need a few more units firing at it next, a target lock... That should be good enough for the footsoldiers.

Pathfinders will be my main source for markerlights. But they will get new tools becuase of my promotion track fluff.

We know that Fire warriors go on to become battlesuit pilots. But the stealthsuit operators are supposed to be a little different like in being used to operate away from the main force. So stealthsuits pilots maybe promoted from the pathfinders if I make them troops.

I'm using this as an excuse to give the pathfinders some modified stealth fields that gives them bonuses to coversaves and makes blast markers scatter a bit more. I don't know about the testing to spot them rule as of yet.

With the way my markerlights work I'm thinking that they are going to cost 20-ish points each but will depend on if they are troops or elites and the level of the rest of the gear. They will still have scout and will be able to take the SkyRay as a transport.

This probably sounds confusing. Will get back to you when I get some rest and finish tweeking their entry.

@Focusedfire: I can beat tau, handily, if I writw a biased list aggainst tau. anyone can. The necron list you described is def non-standard as well. My issue against tau was that with the 3rd ed IG codex Mechanized armies had no chance.

Srsly though, I have seen you write some of the most absurd crap in support of this "fan dex" that the battle psykers are protesting your internet access! rapid fire markerlights? really?

There's nothing wrong with musing over an idea, or suggesting it. But when you disagree, give out actual reasons. The handful of "NO! LRN2PLAY" responses aren't helping anyone, nor is going "that's absurd crap".

If you disagree with something, as I did with that (gotta keep a close leash on codex creep: we need to equal, but shouldn't beat out too much) rapidfire markerlight idea, give proper examples or reasoning. Otherwise how's anyone supposed to value what you say? There's a lot of 'if you don't like it, don't use it' with anything player-made, so its not like you're protesting upcoming official changes from a GW dev.

We'd like to think we're somewhat above THAT level of competance, at the very least in writing clearly!

BS3 Tau gives them the same shooting for the same points with more wounds on the table.

I like the cheaper Markerlights idea. I also like the idea of cheaper Devil Fish and more drones for Suits.

Kungfuhustler wrote:@Focusedfire: I can beat tau, handily, if I writw a biased list aggainst tau. anyone can. The necron list you described is def non-standard as well. My issue against tau was that with the 3rd ed IG codex Mechanized armies had no chance.

Srsly though, I have seen you write some of the most absurd crap in support of this "fan dex" that the battle psykers are protesting your internet access! rapid fire markerlights? really?

Really, You can beat Tau. Not what you said here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/238303.page


Now as to the non-standard list comment..........

There seem to be two kinds of people playing 40K these days.(Both IMO and YMMV statements being made here. Generalized statements from personal experiences.)

1)One type is the kind of person who likes to explore the options and run "Non-Standard" lists looking for new tactics and combinations that may have escaped notice. These people are creative tactical thinkers not satisfied with giving up on a unit or tactic just because some one says that it is not optimal. They will find out for themselves and decide from their own experiences. Then they will combine what they have learned with what others have said. A lot of times these to things don't agree and sometimes one of these people finds a new powerful way to play a certain army. These people are usually not the average tourny player. They are creative. They will play other armies just to better understand the tactics of their favorite. The majority of people I play with are this kind of player. I am one of those people.

2)The other type seems to be the number crunching analyst who runs around with cloned spam lists. They are not prone to be overly creative and usually belive that the majority of game tactics lie in how they write their army list. IMO (which come from my personal experiences) I believe that more of the Tourny players fall into this catagory. Also been my personal experience(YMMV), that this type individual is not overly creative and tend to ridicule those that are. That is until some creative individual comes up with a new tactic then they just clone the army and call the guy genius until he proposes the next "Non-Standard" tactic. You are coming across as that type of individual to me.


Now the final line in your post is quite amusing.

It tends to support what I'm saying about the unimaginative ridiculing the creative process because they don't understand. I'll try to explain. The game of 40K is called Sci-fantasy. It could just as easily be called Sci-fi. The point is that nothing has any real basis except for what the back story gives. That back story can be changed and rewritten as needs of the game dictate. People talk about what is cannon in 40K history. I find this amusing because if it was profitable enough GW would rewrite the story turning the Emporer into an Emperess. Nothing is really cannon, just some things are very unlikely to change.

To the point that I am making. The old markers are heavy1 weapons. Because that is how they came out it is viewed that that is how it should be. If they had come out, originally as assault 2 with some good story as to why, then no one would question them being so. If you made that change now people will howl. This is rightly so if the background story remains unchanged. Now the new background justification will be purely fiction, a work of fantasy, but if the fluff sounds plausible enough people will accept the change and new players won't even know the difference.

In the case of the markerlights moving to rapid fire there are two fluff justification that I could use.

1) The simple beams refract in the atmosphere so targets "painted" at a distance do not give as clear or strong of a signal as when closer. As a result the target is not "mapped" as accurately. The additional counters for when in close represent the increased benefits from being close enough to pin point the target without the chance of refracted signal giving a scattered image.

2)The Tau have moved to simple beam targeted Bio/energy imagers that give an instant generalized 3-D computerized map of the Target at extreme ranges. In close these markerlight generated scans become very precise allowing for pinpoint fire of such accuracy that the guided teams are able to shoot cleanly through the thickest cover.


This is all beside the point as it is only an idea that I'm playing around with for an Unofficial Codex/Fandex. This book will not be tourny legal nor is it intended to be. The Fan-dex I'm writing is for putting out ideas of how I think the Tau should look and function. If people like it when I'm done and want to play their Tau built according to this fan-dex in private games, I can only hope that they will enjoy. Emphasis on they, not just the Tau player. Hopefully the opponent will find the Tau as I'm writing them to be a very tough but enjoyable army to play and both win and lose to. I need to get back to work on this fan-dex, I've already spent too much time discussing this with you.

Hope you will find a way to beat the Tau. I'll try not to bore you with"Absurd Crap" by inviting you to use the ignore function. In return I will refrain from advice on how to beat the Tau in your thread.

Next Idea, Nothing formalized just a concept. Drone Tanks, independent drone squadron under the command of the command tank?

The command tank gives bonuses but if taken out the squadron still functions.

Any thoughts?

Are we talking Tank/Hammerhead/Skyray kinda big boom or Tank/piranha small mobile?

I don't like the idea with the large tanks.

A small mobile "Piranha type" tank with some kinda defensive abilities seem to fit my vision of Tau.

The Idea in general seems to fit, but I'm not a fan of a drone squad/tank, gamewise I would say they would have to move like scarabs with turbo boost kinda stuff to keep up with the idea on a fast moving squad/tank controller.

If you where thinking a large tank then I would reverse it and make the drones purely defensive, but I don't like this idea.

Edit: I think the forgeworld model would work great for it.

When it comes to updating Tau, there's basically two choices:

1. Fix all the wargear that doesn't function (ignore target priorty tests, etc.) and just give it a little polish, but not make dramatic changes.

2. Revamp the whole codex top to bottom and try to create an army that fits the fluff.

I hope that GW and any fan-dex goes with 2. But, 1 is the easier route.

In regards to markerlights. Pathfinders are described in the fluff as 'pulling their cadre forward to battle'. So, it seems they're some sort of advanced scout and/or forward observer for the army. But, since they're the cheapest source of markerlights, what do people do? Hide them in the back in cover and/or surrounded by some FWs or Kroot, and let a 6-man FW team hide in their Devilfish to claim an objective. So, to me, that means that Pathfinders don't work according to their fluff, and they should be revamped, and part of that likely includes changing the markerlight. Those are things that I hope get corrected.

Focusedfire is going with 2 he is writing it according to the current fluff and the caste system.

I agree that this will be the coolest choice to see. But I see GW going with 1 :( but if Fire's fandex is as much as I think it will be I will gladly show it to any Tau player that doesn't like the new one.

The reason why Markerlights don't work is because they are too expensive, inflexible, and vulnerable under 5e rules.

Just off the top of my head you could could knock points off of ... most vehicles and those networked markerlight drones.

I said it up above but I think a cool rule would 3 Drones per suit, maybe keep Stealth teams at two or even put them down to one. Or else a number of drones equal to the number of wounds but that is getting complicated/ a different rule.

While we are on the subject of pathfinders a second transport option would be useful. An AV11 type transport. So the Devilfish fills a Gun Boat/ Transport role and the lighter vehicle just has a burst cannon or a couple of drones.

As far as the core rules are concerned there should be one or two basic lists you can build and they should be able to hold against most armies. Say a couple Fire Warrior teams with Kroot, a couple Hammerheads, Pathfinders, etc, etc. Stealth Team with Crisis Suits. Fusion Pirahanas. If they are horribly outgunned/ outbeat then there is something wrong with the army.

@Tacobake- Pathfinders are getting the Tetra but I want to change it into a two wound jetbike. If I end up not making that change there will be a drone jetbike in its place.

The Pathfinders are getting the Skyray as a transport.


Tha current trend in codices is for there to be 3-5 lists that can hold their own. I'm shooting for 3-5 build types with a few fairly functional theme builds thrown in.

Tacobake wrote:
As far as the core rules are concerned there should be one or two basic lists you can build and they should be able to hold against most armies. Say a couple Fire Warrior teams with Kroot, a couple Hammerheads, Pathfinders, etc, etc. Stealth Team with Crisis Suits. Fusion Pirahanas. If they are horribly outgunned/ outbeat then there is something wrong with the army.

This I like. When tau get a new dex, i really want to see a footslogging army, mech, semi-mech all playable again. Farseight's suit hvy army should be viable as well. Nothing needs to be totally metagame shaking, we just need to be good enough to compete with more than a ninja tau build.

Hey Casper, how ya been doin lately.

I've noticed a trend that I like in the more recent codices. Every codice will be somewhat metagame altering because of armywide special rules that help to define the army. I am all for the various armies becoming more distinctive.

These distinctions may change the game to where we see whole new types of armies, you never know.

I'm looking for the Tau to become an elusive, just barely out of reach, like fighting ghosts with your bare hands army. An army that you will actually have to consider when making your all comers build.

The builds I'm looking at are:

Standard- General purpose core Tau army much as it is now but more effective.(Coalition Force, has a little of all of the following styles.)

Stealth- Ghost army that is a strong scouting style of army. Hits fairly hard, almost impossible to see or pin in and catch in one place but if you do is extremely fragile.
Uses the availabilty of stealth in every FOC slot to make a nasty peek-a-boo JSJ army.(Uses Stealthsuits, Stealth vehicles(?), alien auxilla, pathfinders and firewarriors)

MEQ/Tech-Battlesuits and drones deepstriking. This is the tough as nails out in the open lets shoot it out style army that uses a ton of crisis suits and drones.(Drone/Crisis/Tech deepstrike and JSJ army)

Mechanized- A Higher firepower, more manuverable version of what it is now with a few new unit options.(Improved hammerheads, Barracudas, Pirahnas, Jetbikes, and transports)

Foot-sloggers- The alien auxilla army brings a varied array of Tau augmented weapons or skills to the battle field. These Equals in the Tau Empire fight while supported by the best shooting infantry and most durable infantry heavy support available.
(This army uses the Ethereal as guidance, Kroot(including great gnarlock), Vespids, Maybe a new race(?), while supported by a Broadsides, pathfinder, and fire warriors gun-line.)

Please keep in mind that these are not set in stone you have to build just like this lists. These are just my ideas of what certain builds should look like that I use to help guide me as I write this.

I hope that I'm coming across clearly. Sometimes it is easier for me to write the rules than to describe the builds.

hm... a worthy thing to check... let's see if mine can match up...

Stealth: HQ and Elites no problem, obviously. Troops have Kroot, which while not stealth FIELD do have regular stealth and infiltration. Fast Attack has the Remora, and you CAN get some extra sniper drones in heavy. However, I do lack stealth tanks (which would be a bit too much I imagine, but definitely worth a 'special' slot. There IS the mirage apocalypse formation though, which is downright delicious).

JSJ is no problem, as it can be even found in troops, and to a lesser extent sniper drones (these have 3" move and assault, so its a very short relentless JSJ). So for denial, it should do pretty well.

Deepstrikers: As usual its everywhere; although the ethereal and heavy commander suit can't pull it off. Elites as usual no problem, Troops have the drones, fast attack can pull it off with vespid, remora and tetra/piranha teams can outflank, though that's not the same. Still, ninja-tau alive and well. Its easy enough to get as many suits as in the regular 4th edition codex.

Mech: Well, more vehicles. Remora, Tetra, Piranha all have had minor upgrades and/or point drops, Hammerheads cheaper, a bit more customisable, Warfish configurations have better firepower: skyray becoming a devilfish system instead makes a huge leap forward in mech tau's ability on its own. Battle Drones are near-MC jetbikes.

Footslogging: HQ can broadside it,as can its retinue. Elites can hold the needed pathfinders, kroot and fire warriors are of course right there in the troops section, fast attack has vespid but really, that's jump troops. Vespid's small changes ensures they're now worth taking for the most part, though they're still a bit too fragile for their price (they'd start being too good otherwise though most likely).

its still horribly advantageous to take pathfinders: they can more or less stack a set of markerlight counters on a unit, leaving the rest of the army's lights to pinpoint something else. Overall though I think I've gotten pretty close to making just about anything in the FOC worth giving a shot with almost anything else.

You are forgetting that stealthsuits are ideal in 5e to take markers as being jet packers they are relentess.

New rule:
For the Greater Good!: All Tau units (not kroot and vespid) are stubborn(tanks ignore crew shaken results) and may regroup when under 50% .

Bonding Knife: Adds +1 Ld base to whole units

New Character:

Sa'cea Shas'vre (what ever means marksman or similar)

WS:4 BS:7 S:3 T:4(5) I:3 A:3 Ld - Sv 3+

Wargear:
Enhanced Rail Rifle, Tetrium (yes, I made it up 5 seconds ago) Armour, Pulse Pistol

Rules: Survival Instinct, Master Pathfinder, Rouge, Expert Marksman

Enhanced Rail Rifle:
Customized by (character) himself , it uses the following profile:
Str: 7 AP: 2 Range: 36"

Once per game he may choose to fire an incendiary round at a target with following profile:
Str: - AP:1
When fired at a vehicle he counts as shooting a haywire grenade at the target.
At infantry it will wound on a 2+ and always cause instant death regardless of eternal warrior or other rule.

Tetrium Armour:
Made out of an unknown mineral on a suicide mission, it is a light, flexible and strong material. It grants him a 3+ Sv as well as a 5+ invulnerable Sv and +1 toughness (already included above).

Pulse Pistol:
See Tau Armoury

Survival Instinct:
Having seen people die in almost every imaginable way from lasgun to psychic telekinesis, he has gained heightened instincts and as such is fearless, does not take any armour saves for losing combat and will elude any who attempt to chase him down (always beats opponent on initiative roll off, they may still consolidate however). He is also Relentless

Master Pathfinder:
One of the best scouts in the galaxy at large he has the following special rules:
Stealth, Infiltrate, Scout, he is also not impeded by terrain in any way (including shooting, so no cover saves whatsoever [eat that ratlings]). Any unit out flanking or deepstriking within his LOS always come on on a 3+ (Unless automatic) and -1 to all enemy reserves in LOS

Rogue:
He has never really respected authority and has been known to call 'colleagues' to a battle and as such the Tau player may take ONE unit outside the FOC (if firewarriors they do NOT take the place of the compulsory two Troops choices). He may also be taken in a list that includes Commander Farsight.

Expert Marksman:
When shooting at an enemy squad the attacking player may allocate wounds, not the owner

History:
When he was young his parents were killed in the Taros campaign and was left in the lower parts of one of Sa'cea's major cities, the fire cast administration eventually discovered his existence and after trying to bring him to an academy they realized that he was to elusive for a direct approach so sent some pathfinders after him (disguised in plain clothes) after several years they finally apprehended him and made him a pathfinder, when finally time came for him to be promoted to 'vre he refused to pilot a battle or stealth suit, so he was sent on a suicide mission in an imperial city (where his natural tendencies would prove invaluable) to take out a power grid, however it became unstable and blew up, believing him dead they attempted no rescue until several years later when he stole an imperial transport and made it to a Tau border colony.

Context: This is more of an outline for this character, I know he is way overpowered (lol a 500 pt character) that is why there is no pts cost, I just thought a pathfinder character would be a new perspective.

I'd add a rule that forced opposing scouts/infiltrators to deploy no closer that 18" flat out. Next, I'd work in some army special rule that allows the Tau player to choose which army deploys first irregardless of who gets first game turn. Maybe bundle that with an Ethereal since they do call the shots.

The Tau are not a forgiving army if you have to deploy first or face an army of scouts/infiltrators ('Nids) it's just too much of an uphill battle to be called "balanced". With the other armies I've played, Ork, Marines, Tyranids and Dark Eldar, being out deployed was only a big deal if I didn't pay attention to Assault timing. Tau don't Assault (please don't tout Kroot - they're really not that good assaulters) so that "balancing" of tactics isn't there.

@Krellnus: I myself love the idea of a new character but I would have to nit pick yours cause I don't like his story and a couple effects if I may I would like to show you my interpretation of Sa'cea

Shas'vre Monat Vral'tol (Monat:Individual Vral:Undercut Tol:Comand)

Or Vral Tau'aun (Undercut the Ethereals.) as he is known to the Ethereals and his unit.


During the war for T'ros the Tau had the benefit of defending the planet and time to set up fortifications. However the invading imperium had the upper hand once on the ground the Tau didn't have the benefit of the Space Marines strength and heavy armored vehicles neither the speed of the Tallaran guerrilla tactics, the city was to compact for strait fire from the railguns and the guided missile systems to strike the heavy armored yet easy maneuverable land raiders. The Kroot mercenaries helped all they could but even they could not hold long against the invading forces. It wasn't soon after the Tau were losing Tarokeen that the Ethereal caste issued the use of the experimental Stealthsuit XV32 to the Shas'vre Monat this new suit was designed with close quarters combat and heavy armor destruction in mind, a neuro net running up and down the limbs enhances the pilots natural strength and speed without the bulkiness of the larger suits, this allows for the fusion Blaster mounted under the arm to be easily lifted and fired for quick blasts before an assault, their may have been multiple weapons designed for this suit though not introduced.

Monat was not an outspoken follower of Farsight but he did not completely believe the Ethereals and sometimes questioned their intent though he never showed it. After being issued this new suit he was set to the task of taking back Tarokeen. The reports had come in that the city was being taken back by his single unit, as the word that the Tau where driving the Imperium back made it to T'ros's populace a large percentage of them defected and took up arms along side the Tau. After Tarokeen was recaptured Monat was ordered to return the suit. Monat spoke out about this as he believed he could do much more good using the suit and that the Ethereal's were trying to keep power out of the hands of the Tau, this brought again a small schism within the Tau as his words rang true to some of the Tau on T'ros, this lead Monat and a large portion of the Stealthsuits to break away from the Tau and search for power to bring back to there suppressed race.

Schism Commander Vral Tau'aun Cost 160
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:3 A:2(3) Ld:9 SV:2+

Equipment: XV32 Stealthsuit, XV32 Nuero Sword, XV32 Fusion Blaster, Iridium Armor Plates, Blacksun Filter, XV32 Stimulant Injector.

Unit Type: Infantry.(Note: Not Jump infantry)

Special Rules:
Independant Character:Except when accompanied by his Stealthsuit retinue, Schism Commander Vral Tau'aun is an independent character.

XV32 Stealthsuit: The experimental XV32 Stealthsuit grants the user the Relentless and Fleet of Hoof(lol) special rules, and has built in Iridium Plates and a Blacksun Filter.
XV32 Fusion Blaster: This fusion Blaster has had its firing rate increased so it may be used to lay down fire will rushing toward the enemy though at the cost of some power. A unit with it acts as if they had frag grenades. I also has the following profile
Range "10 Strangth 9 AP2 Assualt 2
XV32 Stimulant Injector: The Injector on the XV32 suit had to be cut down so it doesn't work as fast as the older heavy versions which can inject more into the users system. When Schism Commander Vral Tau'aun has only 2 wounds left he benefits from the Feel no Pain spacial rule.
XV32 Neuro Sword(not in love with the name): This sword uses the experimental Neuronet technology to make its use as fluent as if it was an extension of the wielder. In close combat it acts as two close combat weapons(therefor giving +1 attacks)/OR It counts as a Power weapon.(The OR is not in game but me asking your opinion.)

Kauyon Belief: Even with all his new physical prowess he holds true to the Kauyon way. Schism Commander Vral Tau'aun must be held in reserve, even in games that don't normally allow reserves. He becomes ready on your third turn but you may choose to not deploy him and his unit till your fourth turn. He and any unit he is with my come onto the board from any side and may act as normal upon arrival.

Farsight Retainer: If you take Farsight along with Vral Tau'aun, Vral and his retinue doesn't take up the 1 allowed stealthsuit choice.

Stealthsuit retinue: Schism Commander Vral Tau'aun may be accompanied by (not up to)5 XV22 Stealthsuits each equiped with a fusion blaster for 200 points.

This idea is to be a heavy armor/tank hunter.

@Krellnus: Well now that I put him on paper he is nothing like what you made ^_^;; Yours is a Tau Vindicare , Mine is a whole new heavy armor/tank hunter unit .

@Krellnus- Nice uber-charater. I'm going to nitpick though.

The problem from my personal view point is to many special rules and too much non-standard stuff for a Tau Leader.

The next is he himself is too special. He is a great concept for a story but bringing him on the table would unmake the tau in my eyes.


In my fan-dex the Special Characters and regular Commanders aren't going to be very special. From my point of view a Tau fire Caste commander should lead by example. This means using the same weapons that the regular units have access to. They will have abilities that lend towards defining different army builds and equipment that supports these abilities.

Special Issue Equipment now means one unit may take said weapon or wargear instead of one leader model. This makes more sense fluff-wise for how field testing would occur.

Any non standard equipment that a special character or a commander would get that is different from his squad would be given from the stand point of mission orientaion(Communications equip to lead battle) or Fluff(Something pick-up during Travels). Note that these special items while beneficial are also limiting due to the restrictions to other gear and is either "A" weapon or "A" piece of waergear or armour..

This is because to me the Tau are about elevating the ideal rather than the individual.

@Mr.R4nd0m- The unit you have designed while interesting doesn't quite come across as being a great blend of tech unless you are planning on dropping the stealth spotting distance to 2D6x2. Then they seem about right.

I thought about dropping the spotting distance but ended up leaving that part alone and instead reworked the cover and blast/barrage benefits by allowing you to make your opponet reroll scatter upon direct hits and an extra point of natural coversave always.

Not sure about giving Tau mini-termies.

See ya soon

@Mr.R4nd0m: (imitates borat) Is very nice, I like it.

@Focused: I concur your point (I enjoy nitpicking myself), but it was only an idea (lol tau vindicare), I just like the thought of a pathfinder shas'vre character (remind anybody of tellion). Honestly I expected a more pedantic response. (Nag, Nag, to Uber, Mega Nag). Edit: can you please e-mail me a copy of your fan-dex (so curious).

focusedfire wrote:In my fan-dex the Special Characters and regular Commanders aren't going to be very special. From my point of view a Tau fire Caste commander should lead by example. This means using the same weapons that the regular units have access to. They will have abilities that lend towards defining different army builds and equipment that supports these abilities.

I'm unlikely to have more than one or two; it took me this long to even want to touch the idea of special characters, but I'm actually taking this to its limit: Special characters do NOT have 'special issue' gear in my 'dex; such veterans have standard, reliable weapons, likely the same set they've used and mastered for years.

Honestly though I've always found the not-Aun-shi specials pretty lame, but that this was greatly compensated for by our regular battlesuit commanders being so much more 'special' than a lot of other armies feel (save chaos obviously).

Special Issue Equipment now means one unit may take said weapon or wargear instead of one leader model. This makes more sense fluff-wise for how field testing would occur.

Here I'm actually going the other way: Reliable, proven, easy to maintain/replace weapons and wargear are actually valued fluffwise more than the 'prototypes': one's equipment should never put one at risk, soldiers aren't expendable. Higher ups are asked to handle it because someone has to, if it breaks down they can still affect the battle in other ways, and the tactica, minor bugs and words of wisdom regarding the 'upcoming new system' have to get taken care of somehow.

Special Issue equipment is a dubious honor, where the lack of ammo or inherent risks and perils are taken by those who've already lived a good long life, and have the experience needed to minimise the damage or casualties should it turn out that new shield design flickers off if it ever gets wet in a sandstorm. Its still an honor, even the empire likes its heroes after all, and "the Fio in R&D are hoping you'll have some good words about that new burst design; it just got past the 'sometimes explodes' stage!" is a whole lot more humble than "here be thine medals and planet, governor".

Multiple copies are possible (up to 2 of one single system between 1750 and 3000 points, or 2 of two or 3 of one at or beyond that much), and those, if taken, must be on the same unit, but overall there's not much change in my case. Hell one of the systems is in fact a CHEAPER shield generator (in a 'you get what you pay for' way). Its special issue and only 10 points, but its nowhere near as powerful as a shield will usually be.

Not sure about giving Tau mini-termies.

That alone should pretty much raise the giant red flag...

focusedfire wrote:
In my fan-dex the Special Characters and regular Commanders aren't going to be very special. From my point of view a Tau fire Caste commander should lead by example. This means using the same weapons that the regular units have access to. They will have abilities that lend towards defining different army builds and equipment that supports these abilities.

I like this idea. It gives Tau characters a niche to fill that other armies don't emphasize. I do believe that the idea of said leaders bearing slightly better weaponry is within the Tau idea, however, as long as the weapon is recognizably similar to what is typically used.

As to the special characters discussion, that is one of my strong suits. (at least, flavor/crunch-wise, balance is a little tricky.) However, as I don't play Tau, (or play anyone who plays Tau) I'm a little lost for ideas.
Could you tell me if this "character" fits Tau fluff and so forth?


Shas’o Sa’cea Kais Mont’ka and Shas'o Sa'cea Kais Kauyon
Born some decades ago on the Fire World Sa'cea, these twins were born on the longest day of the season, and it was suspected that they would become great warriors. Occasionally, such beliefs are true. Both brothers showed great strategic and tactical skill, and decided to follow the separate strategies of Mont'ka and Kauyon, to better complement the other on the battlefield. The brother's close ties and skill resulted in them always receiving promotion together, until they were both Commanders of Tau forces. The two exhibit the recorded near-telepathy of twins, and work as one to win a battle. Their only known weakness is a potential over-reliance on the other, as they almost never listen to advice from other Commanders or even Ethereals if it runs counter to their brother's.
The brother's focus on their respective paths has led Mont'ka to wear the standard Crisis Suit, while Kauyon is one of the few Tau Commanders who wears the XV88 battlesuit. The brothers are known for serving as almost avatars of their respective strategies, Mont'ka's hot-blood always searching for a weakness, while Kauyon tempers his brother's plans with patience and trickery.

These two Tau commanders must be taken together, filling both HQ slots. You may use them in a Tau army numbering 2000 points or more.
Points: 300
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Mont’ka 4 5 4 4 4 3 4 10 3+
Kauyon 4 5 4 4 4 3 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Jump Infantry(Mont’ka), and Infantry (Kauyon)

Equipment:
Mont’ka’s XV8 Crisis suit is equipped with a Twin-linked Plasma Rifle, and a Fusion blaster. In addition, he has a Multi-tracker, Stimulant Injector, and Phoenici Detonator.

Kauyon wears a modified XV88 Broadside suit, replacing the smart missile system for a Twin-linked Missile Pod. He also has a marker drone, hard-wired drone controller, and positional relay

Special Rules:

Independent Character: Unless with their bodyguard, both brothers are independent characters, following the rules in the Independent Character section of the Warhammer 40k rulebook.

Bodyguard: Mont'ka may take a bodyguard as described in the Tau Empires codex under the Tau Commander rules. Kauyon may take up to 2 XV88 battlesuits as his bodyguard. Any bodyguard he takes must be Shas'vre.

Battlesuits: Mont’ka’s battle suit grants him the Acute Senses and Deep Strike special rules. Kauyon’s grants Acute Senses.

Strike Here, Brother: Once per game, Kauyon may nominate an enemy unit in range, and fire his Railgun. On a hit, the unit is not harmed. However, the unit counts as a teleport homer for Mont’ka and any unit he’s attached to. If Mont’ka is no longer in reserves, this ability has no effect.

Die Like a Star: Mont’ka’s detonator is adapted from the standard Failsafe detonator by tapping into his life signs, and uses his death as an activating agent. The blast is more powerful, as the entire suit overloads in the last moments. Should Mont’ka be slain, place a large blast template where he fell, and resolve a strength 8, AP 3 hit against all under the template.

Vendetta: If one of the brothers is slain, the other must make a Morale test. On a failure, they fall back and cannot regroup. On a success, they gain Hatred(the enemy). From this point on, they gain Furious Charge, and will hit in close combat on a 3+ always.

(As a sidenote, my apologies for not commenting sooner, but as I mentioned, I don't know much about Tau, and so most of your discussions have been over my head in terms of whether they're fair or overpowered or not.)

tau don't need to be fixed. I have never lost as them. Although my competition wasn't grade A exactly...

@ AllWillFall2Me

No offense to the other writers, but the concept that you put out there was one of the more balanced, flavorful, and Tau-ish I've seen in this thread so far. I am a fan of your idea, and would like to hear more from you as far as special characters and the fan-dex goes.

Two thumbs way up!

@AllWillFall2Me-Your failsafe detonator has the exact stats as the failsafe in my new fandex. The only difference is that models in base to base with the detonating suit get no coversave but the rest do receive a coversave.


I really like your fluff and idea on the twins. I think they would make good replacements for when GW finally retires shadowsun and Farsight. I don't think that they could be used in my fandex "as is", though. I'll try to explain:

I'm working from a more inclusive Tau design regarding Alien allies. When you run the aliens, though, you will have to take an Ethereal as one of the HQ's(Unless they get moved to an advisor position).

From the PoV that I'm currently working from the twins are a little too Tau-centric. Now,IMO(as I percieve the Tau progressing), I could see the Twins emerging in the codex after the next one. Right now the Tau really need some Alien HQ choices to live up to their fluff of everyone is equal. After this is established then there would be room in the following codex.

P.S. I'd drop the taking up both HQ slots and have them take only one but there headstrong nature has mandated that there will always be an Ethereal present to balance them. If the ethereal dies then their symbiosis goes away as each brother pushes for his preffered style of warfare. Just kinda like the idea of a little sibling rivalry amoungst two hot headed Fire Caste twins. Just a thought.


(Special character fluff alert)
Now, I haven't really gotten into the fluff on My specials because I fear doing so will take more time away from devolping this fan-dex in what is currently an already busier than normal schedule. I will give this one leak.


For a full season did he walk amoungst them unknown. Watching, Listening, and Learning. Others that had come before him had met with swift deaths for their uncompromising demands. Demands to stand down and to submit once more to the will of the greater good. They had been unwise, there hasty actions even giving weight to this rebels accusations of the arrogance of the Aun.

But not this Aun. He was wise. He studied these rebels, their leader, and their overall conditions. The last was what concerned him the most. These people suffered terribly from the lack of balance that is essential to the existance of the Tau race. All Castes were still present but were not being lead to work in cooperation. The rebels had no understanding of the cycles of war and peace. The waged only war, rewarded only the warriors, and neglected the rest of the populace to the point of near collapse. Things were so bad that only the Military might of their leader and the basic instinct for survival kept them going......but it couldn't last much longer. Something had to be done about how these people were being led.

After much thought and meditation, he knew what he had to do. Having waited for the right moment and opportunity, he knew it was now time to act. The Rebel leader was to speak publicly this day. The Aun had made every preperation and taken every precaution to insure that he would be successful in his mission, knowing full well that in doing so he would never return to his home. With grim determination he set out for the circular ampitheater to do what no other Aun had ever had to do. Following his carefully planned route step for step the thought that this would be his final mission for Aun'Va echoed along with each step toward the place for this rebel to announce his latest victory. Tightly griping his Honour blade that was wrapped and hidden in plain sight across his shoulders.

So focused upon his mission that the Etheral was surprised at how quickly and uneventfully he arrived at the spot. The spot where he would change these peoples lives, the spot that placed him within blades reach of the rebel leader.

Now that he was at the spot, a calm over took him as he waited. The crowd gathered.
...and he waited.
The leaders bodyguards took up positions.
....and he waited.
The planetary govenor began speaking.
....and he waited
Finally, The govenor finished his speech and began to introduce the general of the rebel forces. It was a quick introduction with a very precise military honour procession entrance by the general.
....Still he waited.

Then, came the moment. The point where in every speech where the general would rail against the arrogance of the Etherals.

With a swiftness that could never be followed by any Tau eye the Ethereal sprang into action. With one beautifully smooth and liquid movement the Honourblade was uncovered and the Ethereal was on the stage with his blade whistling towards the generals throat. There was no time to react. The bodyguards, just beginning their expressions of shock and anger, could do nothing. The general, though, looked on calmly as if the blade was nothing more than a childs toy. He then began to step to the side with an unatural speed as the calm look began to turn into a smile.

This look immediately changed when he saw his attackers face and realized the move that was to come next. The Ethereal accelerated his blade downward quickly then swung it wide parrallel to the ground and swept the generals legs out from under him. The general hit the ground at the same moment that his old friends blade touched his throat.

Halt cried the Ethereal to the bodygaurds as the were just beginning to bring up their weapons. Holding his blade to the generals throat he then ordered the bodyguards to step away. The bodyguards were reluctant but complied. Now did the Aun turn to the general and order him to his feet.

There they stood. For everyone to see. The moment had arrived. The Aun took his blade and set the tip against the generals chest and cut deep. Then to everyones amazement he took the other end and did the same to his own chest. As the two old friends looked at one another their gazes were of an unusual contrast, with the generals was completely puzzeled and the Auna absolutely unfathomable.

Then very slowly did the Ethereal remove the blades from the wounds and ceremoniously reversed the ends of the blade and repeated the same cuts. The crowd gasped to see such a perversion of the Talissera. But before the hiss of anger could really start the onlookers were to be quickly amazed again as the etheral removed the blade tips and knelt before the general offering up the blade.

It was in this one unexpected act that Aun'shi and Oshova became bonded. It was also this moment that Aun'shi did what he felt was for the greater good by forswearing any allegiance to the Tau Empire and pledging his service to O'shova in order to help return balance to the suffering rebels.


Thats right, all of that wording to tell you that Aun'shi is back and now with O'shova. Now you know why I don't reveal too much of my fluff. Tell me what you think.


Edit for 1500th post celebration

@Krellnus-I agree about the pathfinder or foot-slogger shas'vre. I'm working on something along those lines for a possible rail rifle equipped retinue.



@Everyone-sorry for back to back posts.

@AllWillFall2Me: That is totally awesome.

@Focused Fire: Oh my God! (and I'm atheist) that is freaking awesome!, Other than that I am completely speechless (taking from family guy) Farsight: No, No, No, Stop it!, Stop it!. Aun'shi: Ok

@ Che-Vito: Thanks for that, I posted them with the belief that it'd get torn apart by you 'real' Tau guys.
As I said, I don't get to play Tau, so I don't know too much, but I'd be willing to look at anyone's fan-dex, and I could playtest it against my roommates and get their feedback. I'm always willing to try something new.

@focusedfire: First off, :slowclap: for that bit of fluff there. From the little I've read of the tau codices, Aun'shi definitely deserves a spot, and that was awesome fluff.
I'm glad you have a similar failsafe, as it was one of the few things my roommate disagreed with.
As to the Alien allies idea, I totally agree. I wrote those characters almost a year ago, when I was first getting into 40k. I didn't know much Tau fluff, so I stuck with what I knew.
With regards to the single HQ slot, do you think that's not overpowering? That was my main reason for the rule, to prevent getting two characters in one slot. But I suppose it's a little like Creed and Kell. If you think it's fine with just the one, then I'd be willing to do it. I'll take a look into the 'squabbling brothers' idea.

As I mentioned to Che, I'm willing to look at any fan-dexes the writers want to send me. Also, if there's any special character ideas you'd like me to work on, I'll give them a shot. I'll try and put together a Kroot character later, to try and get a feel for them.

@focusedfire well damn, am I gonna have to give up here? I originally tried to keep from adding any fluff as much as possible, but that's probably gotten it nice and ignorable by now... I'm certainly confident about the rule/unit changes I have, though.

Most people do seem to love their special characters; I myself kinda edge the other way, being more attached to carefully crafted/designed standard commanders and vehicles...

@Krellnus & AllWillFall2Me- Thank you both for the compliments. To tell the truth, I was a bit ashamed to post that tidbit as it was pretty much just the first draft where I put idea to paper. I still have a fair bit of editing for sentence structure, paragraph composition, and general tweeking for a smooth/fluid reading experience. There are repetitve phrases that will be exchanged for fluff accurate terminology during this editing process(Didn't have a Tau book around when I jotted this down). I do intend to keep the feel of the reader not knowing exactly who is doing what to whom until the characters meet, though.

Again, Thank you for your kind words.


As for the Fan-dex my schedule this week has forced a temporary pause for the next day or two then I'll be back to work on it. Please to note that I write on legal pads first then transcribe to the computer. I'm just now getting to the point that the legal notepad portion is almost finished. Once I do finish this portion however, the transcription process is usually very quick. When I get done I will get copies to all who have expressed an interest.

@Nova- Not trying to force the issue. Was responding as to why I don't give more fluff. I think that I have some neat backstory ideas that help to define the Tau in my Fan-dex but was attempting to show why I wasn't giving more fluff detail.

While there will be several new upgrade characters and command types there will only be one or two new Specials. One of them being Aun'shi an already existing character from the Tau back story. The other would be my heavy battlesuit leader if I decide to include him.

I have decided to not use Angkor Prok but rather his decendants as an upgrade option to the Master Shaper HQ option. It will be called the Kindred of Prok upgrade.

Now where I am not a fan of the Uber-character I do like having Special generals that are better at leading certain types of forces. I think of it like this. "Who would you rather be the battlefield leader for your Armoured Cav.? Patton or Bradley?" Same question, but this time they are the battlefield leader for your infantry forces. I want better tacticians rather than uber-warrior armies of one. I'll leave that to the SMs

The primary reason why I did the redo on the Aun'shi and O'Shova fluff is because the Farsight enclave is going to represent one of those different styles of builds. As I explained a page back or so. Fluff helps to provide the reason for rules, weapon, and equipement stats changing. Due to the amount of restructuring I am attempting it seemed necessary to give justifications on why things had changed so much. Tell a Tau player that Farsight now has Aunshi as an independent advisor, that one or both now have eternal warrior, and the unit restrictions are changing. They are going to gripe unless you provide the justification.

I also have to take the special characters into account when writing my rules, lest they unbalance the structure. With this in mind fan-dex is still being written from the standpoint that the normal commanders should suffice for a variety of competitive general builds but if you want to specialize a bit more then you will have the option to use the special characters to aid in the non-standard builds.(This last is sort of how I view it but feel that some clarifying thing is eluding me at the moment.)

@Fire: You missed your calling as a Black Library writer and I think this follows the characters their attitudes exactly. Can't wait for the codex.

Edit:spell check made Library into Librarain e.e (fixed)

@Focused You aren't related to Dan Abnett are you? I are being serious lol

With Rail Rifles maybe take 6" off the range and then make them assault or rapid (this comin from a player who wants mech but can't afford :( )

I'm leaving the Rail Rifle profile alone. The Ethereal is getting six guys armed with them as a possible retinue. The now defunct sniper drone spotter/controllers are now in this retinue with the new job of providing markerlights, unit shielding(Ranged only), and command & control benefits.(Still working on the last two for the unit spotters.

I'm probably going to tinker with my shield rules a bit. The shield drones will not give a invulnerable in HtH but produces area effect bubbles of ranged protection. Crisis suit sheild generators will provide HtH invulnerables for the equipped model. This will be in addition to the ranged shielding area effect bubbles I've already written previously.



I'd like some feedback on an idea that has been rollin around in my noggin.

Kroot Shaman-An army with a kroot master shaper may take 1 kroot shaman per kindred squad. The Shaman is a kroot that has been directed by the master shaper to consume things with the most psychic ability or potential in addition to what the rest of the kindred eat. This has produced kroot psykers.

I have not statted this as of yet because I'm really unsure about the Tau ever getting battlefield psykers. I can say that I was thinking along the lines of warlocks as to their in-game abilities.


Funny-GW almost painted themselves into a corner with the kroot genetic back story. There would have been no need for bringing in any new races into the Tau empire if the kroot had not been so tightly limited in their back story. It would have been to easy to say,"The Tau need Astropaths, have the kroot eat a few.""The Tau need super tough combat monster, have them eat a few orks or tyranids."
This is why I will probably keep the kroot some what limited as to the effect of their evolutionary adaptations.

Let me know what you think

Kroot differentiation would definitely bring some flavor back to them, beyond the Kroot Dog and Kroot Gorilla.

Focused, I like the idea of Kroot Psykers, though I'm leery of how you'd implement them.
Are we looking at something akin to old commisars or priests, or more like warlocks? I understand you want them to have Warlock-like powers, but I'm asking if they serve as an upgrade character for kindred, or if you have them as a series of independents that can join and lead kindred.
I kind of like the idea of having them be the latter, with the option of a unit of them. (IN essence, they can form their own seer council) However, that might be a little bit too Eldar.

Nice, but a kroot psyker... I dunno seems more like just include the nicassar.

BTW kroot don't eat nids or chaos because they are 'tainted'

But the eldar are very tasty. So why not? And they where in the codex approved if I remember correctly.

Krellnus-I was aware of the chaos prohibition but not the tyranid one. Where might I find the details of why the kroot wouldn't eat the nids?

guardpiper- you are right about the eldar but please to also not overlook the humans. The race that most of the Tau wars have been fought against.

AllWillFall2Me-I myself am very leery of both doing and how to do this. Something is nagging me to explore the concept though.

Usually, when I have an idea, the concept explodes fully developed in my mind with only a little tweeking needed. Sometimes, however, I have to work at the developement of the concept. This usually happens when I have an issue with something that I have only realised on a sub-concious level. There will be a chance that what-ever I think of will not make it into the fandex but exploring the thought helps me to better define the units.

I first thought of the shaman as an upgrade character that was like the warlock ala the Eldar but, this seems to conflict with the shaper a bit much.

I then thought of doing a shamanic council and again it tresspassed upon the shaper role a bit much and seemed just a lttle too Eldar.

What I'm leaning towards now is that he is an upgrade to the Master Shaper or his shaper council. Maybe treat him/them like advisors?


You see, with things like Lash of submission and the IG psychic choir out there I was looking at maybe tieing beleif in the greater good into some form of defense against such abilities. Every way I've thought of doing this has however come across as unbalanced as either to weak to even be worth mentioning or of a nature that would make your opponents very lactose intolerent.

Now with the kroot I could see them working psychicly much like how they consume DNA. Make it more instinctual. I was thinking that the Shaman could either consume the ability on a certain roll and the enemy psyker in range would be unable to use that particular power again during the game. Or, that the Shaman makes any psyker using a power within range have to take a Perils of the Warp test for any psychic ability used at +1 for each shaman on the battlefield. I'm leaning towards the last due to it being an always on passive ability.

Again, I'm still working it out. I like the idea of something that quietly hunts and consumes the psykers abilities but then you get into the creature being possibly tainted and how much the kroot hate buring a fallen(Tainted) tribe member. This is why I'm leaning towards the passive defense idea.

Let me know what you think. Remember, we could always pull a GW and rewrite the fluff, too.

I think it was in the first Tau codex there was a short story about some Kroot stalking and killing some Tyranids, and the Shaper with them sensing there was something wrong about the Tyranids and they should not be eaten.

The story didn't make much sense as the Kroot power of absorbing genes from things they eat is essentially identical to the Tyranid power of absorbing genes from things they eat. In both cases, the absorption is under some control of the Shapers or the Norn Queens (or whatever.)

Anyhow, back to psychic powers.

The Nicassar could certainly be used to provide the Tau with an offensive power based on teleportation. This would fit existing fluff about the Nicassar using teleportation for space travel.

The Kroot could be allowed to eat some Eldar. This would fit existing fluff (there was a story in the first codex about a bunch of Kroot eating a bunch of Eldar.)

The Tau themselves could provide a defensive power by means of technology -- a portable Geller field for example. This would fit the rapid tech advancement fluff.

Tau troops and Drones could simply be made psychically inert and immune to any mind-bending types of power. This would fit the Tau are psychically inert fluff.

As I mentioned, Special Characters are what I do best, so I decided to look up some potential special characters for Alien allies of the Tau. I didn't want to make Anghor Prak, but Kroot seemed my safest bet in terms of getting it "right". So a quick search of the internet led me to the name Orak, in Kill Team. A quick check of Demonoid got me Kill Team, and a natural reading ability got me an idea of the character. SO, without further ado (Minor spoilers alert):

Orak, Kroot Shaper
Shaper of a mercenary Kindred, Orak is a Kroot on the rise. After the Es’tau assassination of Commander Brightsword, and fighting a bar brawl alongside the Imperium’s famous Last Chancers, Orak led his Kindred to more profitable venues.
Orak is a Kroot name meaning cunning, a trait Orak has shown on multiple occasions. He is also known for his rather quick temper, and the intimidating displays he puts on when angered. Luckily, he is cunning enough to channel his anger, and he has yet to let his anger lead him into a trap.

75 points

Orak WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:3 W:3 I:5 A:3(4) LD:10 Sv:5+
Hound WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:5 A:2 LD:7 Sv: -
Unit: Infantry(Unique)

Wargear: Frag Grenades, Killer Rifle

Special Rules: Independent Character, Fieldcraft, Infiltrate, Kroot Cunning, Hot-headed

Killer Rifle: Orak has a slightly modified kroot rifle, that fires explosive slugs. Treat this as a boltgun, that provides an additional attack in close combat, as if he wielded two close combat weapons (bonus included in his stat-line).

Kroot Cunning: Rare is the battle that Orak joins without having a plan laid out. He may have the seize initiative die re-rolled, whether he or his opponent is seizing. Furthermore, at the cost of +2 points a model, any Kroot Carnivore squad may be given the Scout USR.

Hot-headed: Orak often loses his temper in combat, which is why he has taken pains to consume species known for ferocious combat, and quick movements. He, and any Kroot unit he joins, has the Fleet and Furious Charge special rules.

Retinue: If you wish, you may field Orak with up to 4 Kroot Hounds as a retinue, at the cost of 7 points a hound. This follows the standard rules of a retinue.






So, my self-dissection, as it were. Sadly, there was no discussion of Orak's fighting style or ability in the novel, so I had little to go on there. The Stat-line is Kompletely Kroot's codex's default Master Shaper stat-line.
The stat-line aside, I deliberately avoided involving or describing standard Kroot or Tau rules, as without seeing fan-dices, (if codices is the plural of codex...) I didn't want to step on any toes.

He's not too showy, as I had little character to build off of, but I think he has some really cool stuff. He showed in the novel a very intelligent and thoughtful demeanor, which when matched with his name of "Cunning", I figured I had to make a rule for. He also reacts angrily several times in the novel, and indeed he seemed highly impressive when angry, so another rule addition.


My major concerns: Hot-headed makes him great at CC. Which, well, he's Kroot. I am slightly worried about the balance of it, but here's my argument.

Most of my balance ideas were taken from Kompletely Kroot, as my roommate has tried their codex, and we've found it to be rather stable. In that codex, for his statline, and a kroot rifle, he'd be 40 points. Frag grenades would be +1 A kroothawk charm (re-roll initiative) 20, a storm bolter (better than his gun) +5 points and fleet another 5. So, by that count, he'd have 71 points, with 4 left over for the option to upgrade kroot and Furious charge. Now, I see the upgrade as good for Kroot, and playing up the Cunning aspect by allowing cool outflanking plans, but generally self-contained. Paying ten points a model for a unit without an armor save seemed a little much to me. Counter-arguments are welcome.

My personal idea is maybe I should limit the Hot-headed bonus to only him and if he takes his retinue, them.

But, if you all think it's fine as is, it'll stand. If not, well, you guys are the Tau experts, as far as I'm concerned.

That would probably work pretty well actually.

I liked your concept, only one part of your post made me laugh:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:
My personal idea is maybe I should limit the Hot-headed bonus to only him and if he takes his retinue, them.

Orak and his hot-headed Kroot Hound retinue?? lulz.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think it was in the first Tau codex there was a short story about some Kroot stalking and killing some Tyranids, and the Shaper with them sensing there was something wrong about the Tyranids and they should not be eaten.

The story didn't make much sense as the Kroot power of absorbing genes from things they eat is essentially identical to the Tyranid power of absorbing genes from things they eat. In both cases, the absorption is under some control of the Shapers or the Norn Queens (or whatever.)

Anyhow, back to psychic powers.

The Nicassar could certainly be used to provide the Tau with an offensive power based on teleportation. This would fit existing fluff about the Nicassar using teleportation for space travel.

The Kroot could be allowed to eat some Eldar. This would fit existing fluff (there was a story in the first codex about a bunch of Kroot eating a bunch of Eldar.)

The Tau themselves could provide a defensive power by means of technology -- a portable Geller field for example. This would fit the rapid tech advancement fluff.

Tau troops and Drones could simply be made psychically inert and immune to any mind-bending types of power. This would fit the Tau are psychically inert fluff.

I agree with every part of this post. When contemplating future Tau pychic status and how they are going to deal with such, I came to the very same conclusions. I am just struggling as to which direction.

I have decided that If I run a Kroot Shaman that he will be an upgrade charcter to the Shaper council HQ that I am writing up. Still haven't figured if they will be advisors or just parts of the retinue that give army bonuses or something.


@AllWillFall2Me- I'm looking at giving the Kroot furious assault either as an evolutionary upgrade or through a spicific shaper Special character. Haven't decided which way I'm goint to go as of yet but your Orak would be a great candidate.

I think that I'd change the retinue to where he is always accompanied by the extra hounds yet he may still join any kroot unit. Tell mw what you think then lets see if we can tweek him just a littlemore. As-is he is a fairly good SC.

dietrich wrote:In regards to markerlights. Pathfinders are described in the fluff as 'pulling their cadre forward to battle'. So, it seems they're some sort of advanced scout and/or forward observer for the army. But, since they're the cheapest source of markerlights, what do people do? Hide them in the back in cover and/or surrounded by some FWs or Kroot, and let a 6-man FW team hide in their Devilfish to claim an objective. So, to me, that means that Pathfinders don't work according to their fluff, and they should be revamped, and part of that likely includes changing the markerlight. Those are things that I hope get corrected.

idk about you but i kinda run my pathfinders up a little for my markerlights to hit my opponent

though sometimes they die (almost always, i havnt won yet )

I say change the markerlights and increase the firewarriors BS by 1 or 2

Make it so that instead of pathfinders rail-rifles coming with target lock they come with targetting array (makes sense if you were a sniper)

Fire Caste Tactical Strike Team (Elites Choice)

Shas'vre WS3 BS3(4) S3 T3 W1 A1(2) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
SHas'la WS3 BS4(5) S3 T3 W1 A1(3) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
Tac Drone WS2 BS2(3) S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4+

Equipment:
Fire Caste: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Fire Caste Armor, distributed drone controller, targeting array
Tactical Drone: twin-linked pulse carbine, targeting array, drone armor
Special Rules: Bonded, AI Dependant, Combat Squads
Organization: 1 Shas'vre, 4 Shas'la, 1 Tactical Drone

Options:
You may add an addtional Tactical Strike Team for x points
*Any Fire Caste may exchange his Pulse Rifle for a Rail Rifle at x points
*the Shas'vre may take a Networked Marker Light for x points
*The Tactical Drone may exchagne its twin-linked pulse carbines for:
*Flamer
*Fusion gun
*Plasma Rifle
*Missile Pod
*Burst Cannon
*Devilfish transport at x points

The Tau Fire Caste has had to adapt new tactics when encountering new enemies. The Tactical Strike team adds a Tactical Drone with XV8 weaponry in exchagne for its mobility. These smaller indepentendly deployed teams can bring their specialized firepower to bear quickly, without having to wait for a XV team to support them. They are often deployed to hot spots in Devilfish transports. While most Tau disdain close combat, these Fire Warriors train in close combat tactics in odrer to stand a fighting chance against the enemies of the Greater Good who do not share their feelings.

I don't have my codex with me, so I can't work out all the points.

AI Dependant: When the last Fire Caste member is removed from the game, the Tactical Drone is also removed if it is still in play.
Drone Armor: Standard armor for drones, confers a 4+ Armor Save.
Distributed Drone Controller: This distributed AI matrix allows the the drone to be directed by any member of the squad.

ishantil wrote:Fire Caste Tactical Strike Team (Elites Choice)

Shas'vre WS3 BS3(4) S3 T3 W1 A1(2) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
SHas'la WS3 BS4(5) S3 T3 W1 A1(3) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
Tac Drone WS2 BS2(3) S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4+

Equipment:
Fire Caste: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Fire Caste Armor, distributed drone controller, targeting array
Tactical Drone: twin-linked pulse carbine, targeting array, drone armor
Special Rules: Bonded, AI Dependant, Combat Squads
Organization: 1 Shas'vre, 4 Shas'la, 1 Tactical Drone

Options:
You may add an addtional Tactical Strike Team for x points
*Any Fire Caste may exchange his Pulse Rifle for a Rail Rifle at x points
*the Shas'vre may take a Networked Marker Light for x points
*The Tactical Drone may exchagne its twin-linked pulse carbines for:
*Flamer
*Fusion gun
*Plasma Rifle
*Missile Pod
*Burst Cannon
*Devilfish transport at x points

The Tau Fire Caste has had to adapt new tactics when encountering new enemies. The Tactical Strike team adds a Tactical Drone with XV8 weaponry in exchagne for its mobility. These smaller indepentendly deployed teams can bring their specialized firepower to bear quickly, without having to wait for a XV team to support them. They are often deployed to hot spots in Devilfish transports. While most Tau disdain close combat, these Fire Warriors train in close combat tactics in odrer to stand a fighting chance against the enemies of the Greater Good who do not share their feelings.

I don't have my codex with me, so I can't work out all the points.

Thoughts?

Doesn't seem like a bad idea, but does need some clarification.
(1) From the stats and weapons, it seems like you are talking about a Fire Warrior elite squad?
(2) If the team is so dependent on the drone for heavy support, why is it's BS so terrible?
(3)There are several rules that I have not yet seen that you will have to explain: "AI Dependent" and "Drone Armor"

All in all, that seems like a good start.

Drones according to current codices, have a BS of 2. This is of course, radically contrary to the fluff, stating that drones are extremely accurate, especially the seeker missiles.

I added a targeting array, much like a Sniper Drone is.

Making Networked and other marker lights more accessable and cheaper is a good way to make up for the lack of higher BS.

ishantil wrote:Drones according to current codices, have a BS of 2. This is of course, radically contrary to the fluff, stating that drones are extremely accurate, especially the seeker missiles.

I added a targeting array, much like a Sniper Drone is.

Making Networked and other marker lights more accessable and cheaper is a good way to make up for the lack of higher BS.

True. Oddly enough the Seeker missiles are said to use "Drone intelligence" to guide them, yet they hit more often than Drones???
Strange, but true.

I updated the post. sorry, I forgot. Brainstorming does that. I thought of these guys on the way home from work.

Yeah, in reality, the Tau would manufacture those drones by the thousand and unleash them on their enemies.

Shas'o: "Wait, we can MAKE these things by the dozen? Why have I only been tasked with 8?"
Earth Caste: "Politics, sir. GW says we can only bring like 20. We've got our lobbyists working on it, but so far...."
Shas'o: "Bah. Politics. Keeps us from stomping those impertinent humans."

I want some Vespid troops. Maybe some form of lesser Vespid strain that was meant to only defend the home colony and therefore cannot fly...but since Vespid can travel around with the tau in their big ships of warpyness they are used as CC meatshields for the Tau. Make them cost more then kroot. Give them rending, and claws that count as 2 CC weps. High Strength/Toughness low Init/LD (they are the dregs of Vespid society). I have the more complete suggestion posted somewhere on LO...but I don't feel like finding it right now.

Also I am a noob so...feel free to ignore everything I just said.

Pulse Carbines Assault 2

Tau Jump Packers:

Tau Rapid Strike Team:

WS:3 BS:3 S:2 T:3 I:4 W:1 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+

Size: 1 Shas'ui and 5 Shas'la

Type: Jump Infantry

Equipment: Photon and EMP grenades, Fire caste Armour, Twin Pulse Pistols, Jump Pack

Options: May Purchase an extra six Shas'la for x points, Up to 4 (not Shas'ui) may replace their twin pulse pistols with either a; flamer or pulse carbine.

Rules:
Assault Experts: Have the relentless special rule may outflank in addition, they may always choose which side to come on from.

Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary *edit* but only if it can shoot as well [yes, that means pinning]) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

Krellnus wrote:
Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

So a unit that can fire all of it's weapons (heavy/rapid fire) regardless of movement, and can still fire when pinned?
Granted, it seemed like most, if not all of their weapons were assault.

But a unit that can fire when pinned? Hmmmmmm, just think of what you're poking at here, and how powerful that rule is.

New special rule for Firewarriors and pathfinders only.

Name - Total Humiliation

Effect - If the tau unit wins a sweeping advance, regardless of any special rules or abilities the enemy unit is removed from the table. All enemy models within LOS to the combat must make a successful LD check or be immediately pinned.

Fluff - The loosing unit is so ashamed that they actually lost a HTH combat to Tau firewarriors that they no longer have the will to continue on with the fight and shuffle dejectedly off the battlefield with their heads held low. Any of the enemies comrads who witness the total humiliation of their fellow squad mates must bolster their reserves to avoid falling into a fit of laughter or just standing still in stunned silence.


Hehehehehe... I was bored at work today, can you tell?

The Tau need the ability to take an all drone army. I'll call it "Project Skynet"

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:
Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

So a unit that can fire all of it's weapons (heavy/rapid fire) regardless of movement, and can still fire when pinned?
Granted, it seemed like most, if not all of their weapons were assault.

But a unit that can fire when pinned? Hmmmmmm, just think of what you're poking at here, and how powerful that rule is.

Doh! Sorry that was in my RAI not RAW (I had to write this in like 5 min) I'll change it right now

Yes all their weapons are assault I mean seriously if you are flying around at 60 kp/h would you want to tug around a plasma weapon or something similar?

So, just a basic idea about the carbine; which I have not been able to drop. It came to me when I though about the problem of the overlapping roles stealthsuits and pathfinders have.

The basic idea is simple: the carbine is pinning because it is simultaneously firing a photon grenade from it's underslung grenade launcher. ...But what about other grenade types? You'd think the earth caste would think about putting actual, you know, grenades and such in there. suddenly, you have a reasonable justification to mess with the rules for the gun.

First, off an issue with range - the gun could stand to be assault 24''. most guns at 18'' are getting either ap4 or better, (see: hellgun, sternguard) or multiple shots (see: ork shoota, shuruken catapult). The carbine has none of that; so increasing the range to 24'' would a good tentative step towards making the gun useful - rifles would still be taken for rapid-fire properties, and well, a tau gun SHOULD be better at 24'' than a bolter or a lasgun. the assault properties would make it viable for a gunline army (if those ever get back in style) or it could be simply used to allow for safer range on Fof attacks; while the alt-fire modes would make it worthwhile as an alternative to the sheer weight of fire a rifle would give at 12''.

So, the basic statline would be something like this, for firewarriors: 2 firing modes.

photon: the carbine fires a photon grenade designed to confuse and disorient the enemy.

24'' S5 Ap5 assault 1, pinning; any unit that is hit by a carbine moves as though it was in difficult terrain next turn.
[note this assumes that firewarriors start with photon grenades for free, just like how guardsmen always have frags.]

Airburst (frag): The carbine fires a small timed fragmentation round designed to flush enemies from cover

18'' S5 Ap5 assault 1, pinning, no cover saves.

[note lowered range, since it's firing an airburst; and be aware this is not to be game breaking - but it's not useless just because it's not ap4. Even against 4+ save troops it would useful as you'd deny them a save bonus from going to round, for instance, or if they become pinned - why should a unit BENEFIT from getting shot at by tau guns?]

EMP (pathfinders/bodyguards only): The carbine fires an especially designed EMP dart that is designed to damage and disable delicate machinery. This is a special issue item only assigned to squads that have proved their worth to the fire caste.

12'' S2 Ap* assault 1.
All rounds fired this way vs. vehicles glance on a 3+ and pen on a 6+, regardless of it's armor value.

[I'm toying with the following ideas for this gun:
18'' range?
once a game only?
ap1 for damage results?
reroll damage result, pick highest?
two-man-a-squad upgrade for firewarriors? shas'ui's?
I'm not really sure. advice would be welcomed.]

Anyways, that's all I got for now I can probably get around to re-writing rules for pathfinders/stealthsuits/sniperteams before long. Also, I think kroot psykers are a little silly and in the wrong direction, since I play tau (and by extension, mech guard) because of their technological appeal; the lack of "A WIZARD DID IT" in the army makes it more appealing to me, than say, mech eldar, whose tanks appear to be powered by rainbows and unicorns, or chaos, whose tanks run ground-up slayer albums.

This is my best attempt to be comprehensive on the changes that could/would/should be seen in a 5thed version of the Tau Codex. I’ve deliberately left large parts of it vague, as I don’t have the time or capacity to number-crunch and/or play-test enough to make absolute changes or pts values or new units. Going threw this I tried to sick as close to the fluff & new style of GW as possible…

Army Wide:
-Veteran Progression
--It seems to me that, for an army that spends all it’s time shooting, they don’t get very good at it. I don’t mind the basic Fire Warriors (who, by fluff, are 12 years old) being BS3, but I’d like to see veteran Tau get better at hitting what they’re shooting at. Although it might be considered extreme, +1BS each time would work. Shas’la BS3, Shas’ui BS4, Shas’vre BS5, Shas’el BS6, Shas’o BS7. This would represent not only their personal skill, but also there targeting computers, increased access to hardwired systems and skill at using these technological aides. Because the high BSs already account for it, targeting arrays should be removed as a battlesuit option. On the other hand, veteran fire warriors don’t need to be as good at CC as they are, -1 attack to Shas’ui and above would work. (and before you go “OMG that’s so broken!”, This would have pts increases with it, particularly on the upper levels)

-Morale
--Having leaders standard will at least raise the effective leadership of basic Fire Warriors from 7 to 8, which is reasonable.
--Bonding should be default for all Tau units. This gives us an advantage over guardsmen (who have officers instead)
--Given the relative points cost of many of our models, Tau eat it in sweeping advance. I’d be nice to have a ‘run away’ intuitive bonus, like +2. Which gives us an even chance against most armies, and a reason to take larger squads, rather then smaller ones.

-Tanks
--Why are tanks always crewed by the worst shooters in the army? Tau vehicles should have massive targeting computers, make them all BS 4 standard, with BS 5 available for veteran crews/advanced tanks.
--Disruption pods are now to good, need to go up by 10pts
--Seeker missiles are to wimpy. They hit no harder then a guardsman’s RPG. Ord. AP 1 (like the Hellstrike) would be good.

-Crisis Battlesuits: (There are arguably the most Iconic unit in the Tau army)
--Vectored Thrust should be wargear, not a suit system
--Command Node should proved a radius LD bonus
--An AP3 that isn’t as heavy as the plasma rifle’d be nice
--BS change as above (and some pt increases)
--Plasma Rifle can lower its relative cost
--Ability to Duel Weald (shadowsun style) would also be nice.

-Wargear
--Carbines could use a little help – pinning is to hard to pull of against anyone these days, and the ability to now move and rapid fire makes them seem a little weak against the Rifle. Assault 2 would likely work, as would grenade options.
--Cyclic Ion Blaster could be simplified to rending or just given a good AP (like 3)
--SMS could stand to drop a few points or go up a few missiles
--Now that jetpacks are Relentless, we could see some heavy weapons for Drones or Suits
--Lets just have attached drones not take up transport space or remove IC status, but in all other ways count as part of the unit. (simplification)

HQ:
-Shas’o
--I’d like to see them get some kind of meta-game rules to represent them having command over more then just their Cadre.
-Shas’el
--I’d like to see them able to take alternate battlesuits (such as stealth suits) w/o being a special character. Some army-composition changing rules based on wargear might be cool to.
-Etherial
--Remove LOS from Inspiring. They know he’s there, that should be enough. Let his honor-guard count as a scoring unit. (or have him just modify a normal FW troop). I’d like to see a little hasher price of falure, such as “Tau units that make their moral check are pinned instead as they recover from the shock of the ethereal’s death” The post death bonus should also be shooting related, not Favored Enemy. The codex specifically talks about how they don’t run in to CC when an ethereal dies. Perhaps +1 to hit etc.
-New
--Tau need another HQ choice, as fluff-wise there should only be 1 commander, and Ethereals aren’t ever-present. I’d suggest a few ‘allied commanders’ such as a Human Aux commander or a Kroot Master Shaper.

Elites:
-Crisis Suits & Stealth Suits
--Just as noted in the Army-wide section
-New
--A non-suit elite might be interesting, like a 2-tau specialized weapons team. (EMP missiles, Marksmen snipers etc)
--Can anyone think of a 3rd type of battlesuit that isn’t a heavy support type?

Troops:
-Fire Warriors
--Leader & Photon grenades should be included (it’s the way all the armies are going). The addition of a couple unit-wide upgrade possibilities would create some variation. Fluff wise, all FW who aren’t in devilfish are deployed by Orca or Manta – some kind of DS option might represent that. They could use a small points reduction in the face of modern Troops choices.
-Devilfish
--Cheaper, it’s the way all transports are going. Some kind of Turbo-boost redeployment option would be kinda cool, something to distinguish them from a hovercraft Chimera
-Kroot
--Replace Fieldcraft w/ Stealth & Move threw Cover. (They hide in rocks and buildings well to according to fluff). Make the Shaper a little better (like a witchblade) or just cheaper. Krootox either need infiltrate or something to make them worth not outflanking or infiltrating your Kroot squad.
-Human Auxileries
--Reduce cost, remove hated by imperials, give them some weapons options or bump up their lasgun.
-New
--Doesn’t really seem to need it, unless they come up with a cool new alien.

Fast Attack
-Pathfinders
--Make the transport non-mandatory, photon grenades standard. In all honesty, these guys could be shifted to troops – they take the fast out of fast attack pretty quick. (Actually the attack to, as they’re support troops)
-Drone Squadrens
--Points Reduction, Specialist or Heavy drones?
-Piranhas
--minor points reduction, scout
-Vespid
--Points reduction, better armor and/or a jump-back rule.
-New
--A fast vehicle that’s hardier then the Piranha would be nice. Forge World’s Heavy Gun Drones could work as FA also. Or some kind of super-fish mounted carbine FW.

Heavy Support
-Sniper Drones
--? (haven’t tried them yet)
-Broadside
--S&P standard and not taking up a battlesuit slot, that’s about all they need.
-Hammerhead
--The base tank is quite solid, but now that skimmer isn’t all that different, they need a price brake or a little bonus. It’s said to be the equal to the LRMBT, lets see it.
--Ion Cannon needs help. In the new world of AP3 weapons, it’s equal to a sponson weapon, not a main cannon. Give it more shots or blasts.
--Raingun – good but they must have done something when they scaled it up that much, give it something over Broadsides, like Tank Hunter.
--More cannon options wouldn’t hurt.
-Skyray
--Make it a hammerhead option
--If it’s not shooting planes, it could use heavier missiles, how ‘bout something with some power behind it. (like the upgraded Seekers listed above) Or give it the Alpha strike option of firing any number of missile on a single marklight hit.
-New
--Don’t really need anything more, A MBT & Heavy infantry cover everything mobile enough to fit in the fluff, unless you start talking Air Support. Though the ability to buy Airstrikes would be pretty awesome. (Spend a marklight hit, airstrike goes off like a manticore missile etc…)


P.S. I like your carbine ideas Thug. Looking at the fluff, particularly the pictures, the carbine seems to be an even more quiticential weapon then the rifle does.

I don't know how I feel about disruption pods going up in points like everyone says (no one even cared about them in 4th edition even though they were just as good). They're smoke launchers that work every turn, sure, but they have the serious flaw of not functioning in melta range / rapid fire range, the place where you might need it most. They're going to be required on every vehicle even if they do go up in points, so I wouldn't want more expensive d-pods to just cancel out less expensive vehicles and leave everything costing the same in the end. Every other army seems to get smoke launchers for free while their vehicles go down in points at the same time.

@Mars Drones don't take away IC fully.

Codex:Tau Empire wrote:Unless accompanied by a bodyguard the commander is an independent character. If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an IC

How about giving the ethereals some armour like the one on the cover of the codex.
Limit Pathfinders 0-1 choices outside FOC with following deployment rules:

After deployment, but before scout and infiltration you must deploy your pathfinders in the following manner.
The pathfinders must be deployed anywhere on the board so long as it is 18" away from friendly units (to represent them bringing the cadre forward). Also on the first player turn any Tau units in reserve may deepstrike or outflank on a 5+
Pathfinders MUST BE SET UP THIS WAY. This overrides the set-up rules for all missions.

I would also like some unique mech styles like outflanking for all suits and devilfish or something similar instead of standard mech or transport rush.

For the disruption pods, I guess it depends on if we consider them the tau version of smoke launchers or extra armor. (one became standard, the other became expensive)

I think we really need more then a max 1 Pathfinder squad (at least unless we give other locations to get marklights) They would work as a out of FOC unit though, as the army is suposed to be the Hunter Cadre, and pathfinders are generaly outside that.

Krellinus: That seems slightly overcomplicated. pathfinders are troops; that's about it.

A note about the current structure of the Tau codex: it's disoriented and poorly designed. Basically, to compare the relative roles of firewarriors, pathfinders, and stealthsuits, simply look at the following comparisons:

Space Marines - Scout Marines - Sternguard Vets - Devastator Squads

Guard Platoons - Veteran Guardsmen - Stormtroopers - Heavy Weapon Teams

Firewarriors/Kroot - Pathfinders - Stealthsuits - Crisis suits

The 1st choice is always one taken because it is "beefier" or more survivable in terms of it's armor or squad size. Marines have a better save than scouts; platoons are bigger and harder to eliminate than vets. Likewise, Firewarriors have a large squad size than pathfinders and are cheaper by 2 points. Kroot have a massive squad size and are in the great scheme of things, dirt cheap compared to pathfinders and firewarriors. In each cae - tacticals, firewarriors, platoons - These are what we may call "manpower units"; they are taken because they have a perceived better ability to hold on to an objective; a superior choice of weapon (note this is subverted with guard) and are either superior in either statline OR price. Note that tacticals are probably the best unit listed in this category, for various reasons.

the 2nd choice is always a alternative troop choice (or at least, should be a troop choice) taken because of it's support qualities. scout are excellent support units, but armies of nothing but scout only really work when you put a lot of points into thing like terminators and such, as you sacrifice manpower and muscle? why the reason is usually flexibility. These units also usually have some way to compensate for a lower squad size, which is usually a unique firepower option and a better cover save (although vets can get a 4+ save. the cover save is still better.) For instance: Scouts marines can infiltrate, and have a number of extremely useful USR to help them out; they can get poisoned heavy bolters and sniper rifles...and are frankly probably the best unit listed in this category. Veteran guardsmen have better BS; can get a better cover save; have more special weapon slots which equals more flexability (or reliability if you take 3 of the same, which really equals a unique firepower option). They are better for mechanized guard lists. But pathfinders? well... they have scout. and markerlights. they're good at the "support" part, but the "holding objectives" part, the "flexibility part" , and even the better firepower part they fail miserably. (they have a mandatory fish! come on! what if you want an infantry only army to dilute the other guy's anti-tank weapons?) Hence, why a good start would be to move them to troops and give them unique options for their carbines.

the 3rd choice is usually a unit that as above, has unique deployment options, but it also has vastly superior firepower, because it's not suppose to take objectives; it's designed to kill the living gak out of the enemy. I mean just look at the choices: vanguard and stormies both get ap3 options at 18'', stealths just pelt the living crap out of stuff with burst cannons. stormies and stealths both have unique deployment options. stormies and stealths both have superior armor saves than is expected in their army. Thing is however, stealths, as an elite choice, are not really as good at killing things as their counterparts here. they're bs3, and they have a gun that i just like a firewarrior's carbine, except it just... has more shots. this is rather lame. the night fight rules are nice, however, but they need more firepower. fortunately, there is an obvious location for them to get it; sniper drones. (the SNT spotter can become a squad upgrade for pathfinders, for all I care.) Oh, and vanguard are the best here, again.

The 4th choice is simple. they carry heavy weapons. they can blow stuff up. Well, kinda. Granted, crisis suits are the best option here, for a change, but they ironically, lack anything that really kills tanks good except for a melta- er I mean "fusion gun". it's lame. I can understand keeping these guys from the railguns; thet's why we have broadsides, but come on, you mean to tell me the earth caste can't strap seekers-in-a-tube on these guys? I'd love to see suits with disposable missile launcher tubes as a 10-point wargear thing;, even if it was one shot only, particularly since it would syngerize so well with almost all their existing choices for guns.

Anyways, what can we take from this?
1: The H.M.B.C. theorem is proven once again; GW can't write rules to save their lives.
2: pathfinders need to be redesigned. Stealths and Crisis suits just need a couple extra weapon options and stat tweaks. Firewarriors probably need a price drop; since they're priced like a "support"-style troop choice when they are clearly meant to be a "muscle" troop choice
3: GW always give marines the best fething toys. Crisis suits are "accidentally" good, since heavy weapon teams are normally sub-par choices. This is kinda sad, isn't it?

So anyways, to start:

Crisis suits could use seeker missiles so they can really kill tanks dead. BS4 would be nice.
Stealths could use sniper drones so they can really kill troop choices dead. Bs4 would be peachy keen.
firewarriors need to be better able to survive. They are "the beefy choice" they need effective ld 8 from a built-in squad leader (making them base points 70) and probably a price drop. carbines could use fixing, but that's neither here nor there. When a model with no armor save is a better choice economically, something is wrong with the unit.
Pathfinders need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

(as an aside, carbines, now that I think of it, are fine at 18'', as long as they're assault 2. why is a rifle being used for close-quarter engagements all the time, anyways? the rifle will still be used in those silly gunline armies anyways for the extra range. the extra grenade options, like airburst and EMP, would be limited to pathfinders.)

for the record, just to prevent too much over ap, a few notes on roles of pathfinders vs stealths (and kroot, I guess)

USR
Move though cover? Yes for kroot and pathfinders, no for stealths.
Stealth? Yes for stealths, yes for kroot, maybe as squad upgrade for pathfinders (remember those sniper team leaders lugging around those stealth field generators? this is where they belong.)
Infiltrate? Yes for stealth and kroot; maybe for pathfinders.
Scout? no for kroot and stealths, yes for pathfinders.

Now,this allow for a lot of outflankers, doesn't it? but here's the thing - tau are a mobile army to being with, so I have no issue with this. If they must ave a gimmick beyond having overrated guns and a phobia of getting all sweaty in close combat, then it might as well be that they have a lot of fething outflankers.

as for the pathfinders: a new proposed stat block:

Statline: same as before, but ld8 from built-in shas'ui, and squad is bs 4 (they're scout-snipers practically. they're more expensive. it's a shooty army. small squad size. what more do I have to say here?)

Troop Choice
Composition: 4 pathfinders + 1 shas'ui.
70 points.
USR: move thugh over, scout
wargear: Special-issue carbines, bonding knife, photon grenades
Assault 2 18'' s5 ap5 with underslung markerlights and grenade launchers.

Options:
the squad may take up to 5 extra members for 12 points each
the squad may take a orbital relay for 15 points (this is the reroll scatter die thing)
the squad may take up to 3 railrifles for 10 points each.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
the squad may take a stealth generator (+1 cover; night fight to shoot) for 20 points.
the squad may take airburst grenades (also counts as frags) for 1 points a model (not drones).
the squad may take emp darts (also count as EMP grenades) for 2 points a model (not drones).
the squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah. Yes, it may outflank.
the squad may take a bunch of other crappy options that GW will throw in there for no reason except to fill space and keep the conversion-obsessives busy.

and...done. There you have it, how pathfinders wuld look in perfect world. Will this happen? my guess: hell no. GW making progress? if anything, they'll probably make them troops, but then bump their price to 18 points each or something really stupid like that.

Anyways I have to stop writing this on work hours, so give me your thoughts.

So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Bravo sir, bravo.

Tau really should just be the "Xenos" book and include those Lizardman dudes as well as the other lesser known alien races.


Just kind of a lot neater.

Hollismason wrote:Tau really should just be the "Xenos" book and include those Lizardman dudes as well as the other lesser known alien races.


Just kind of a lot neater.

...shortly followed by the "Humanoids" book that compiles every Human and human-mutant army variant...

Okay, now that we've put that silliness aside, let's continue the discussion about the Tau

i think that tau commanders should be able to take different types of battle suits from the tau armory, so you could have a commander broadside, crisis, or stealth suit.

Also, he shouldn't even HAVE to take a battle suit. you should be able to field a tau commander on foot.

perhaps depending on the battle suit you choose, you could take one squad of that particular suit for a troop choice.

Foxy_Grandpa wrote:i think that tau commanders should be able to take different types of battle suits from the tau armory, so you could have a commander broadside, crisis, or stealth suit.

Also, he shouldn't even HAVE to take a battle suit. you should be able to field a tau commander on foot.

perhaps depending on the battle suit you choose, you could take one squad of that particular suit for a troop choice.

I like the way you think...reminds me very much of some ideas used in the Dark Eldar codex...

They also need to drop that incredibly silly +1 requirement for firewarriors. It is nothing but trouble, really.

So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

BODYGUARD SQUAD: For every ethereal in the army, you may take 1 Bodyguard Firewarrior squad. This squad does not take up a FOC selection but is treated as a troop choice in every other respect. You may take one as one of your mandatory troop choices.

Statline: as firewarriors, except the squad has ld8 base, and effective ld 9 from a built in veteran shas’vre. The unit is bs4 and ws 3.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
75 points (10x5 + 25)
USR: stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Special Rule:

Bodyguards: You may allocate an extra wound on each bodyguard instead of allocating them to an attached independent character.

Options:
The squad may take up to 6 additional members for 10 points each.
Any bodyguard may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
3 models may take markerlights for 10 points each.

[Basically a replacement for those bs4 bodyguards in the HQ section I never seen anyone use. They have the "normal" max squad size of 12 instead of 18.]

+++

Aun’shi
One firewarrior or bodyguard squad in the army may take Aun'shi.

80 points
WS 4
BS 0
S3
T3
A3
I4
W2
Ld 10
Sv. (4+)

USR: Stubborn, Counter Attack, Preferred Enemy.
Wargear: Honor Blade, (counts as that unit’s bonding knife, +2S) Shield Generator.

Special Rules:

Ethereal: Aun’shi’s unit may reroll all leadership tests, including successful tests. He grants his unit stubborn. If he dies, all tau within 12'' must take a leadership check or fall back.

Honored One: Aun’shi is considered an “honorary” member of the fire caste due to his bravery and ferocity in battle. He grants his unit counter attack and preferred enemy.

Lucky: Aun’shi is considered an incredible source of luck, a belief widely embraced by members of the fire caste. Aun’shi and his unit may reroll all armor, cover, or invul saves.

[Basically, anyone who complains about the fragility of firewarriors would like this version of the character. He will keep that unit sitting on the objective long wnough to see turn 5 even without a devilfish, and stubborn keeps the pesky IG from trying scare you off with a psyker squad. but if you end up with no cover save...well, that would be bad.

Still, rerolling saves is huge, hence the pricetag.]

+++

Shas’o’Kais (the one from the decent novel/crappy game)
One firewarrior, bodyguard, or pathfinder squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui/shas’vre with Shas’O’Kais.

60 points
WS 4
BS 5
S3
T3
A2
I3
W1
Ld. 9
Sv 4+

USR: Tank Hunter, Stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse rifle with underslung markerlight. (He may exchange it for a pulse carbine with under slung markerlight for free.), Bonding knife, Photon and EMP grenades.

Special Rules:

Crack Marksmen: O’kais has battled numerous times with monstrous creatures and enemy tanks, and he and his squad know how to use their pulse weapons to deadliest effect, aiming for weak points on enemy infantry and armor. His unit’s shooting attack benefit from rending and tank hunter USR’s. This also affects seeker missiles fired from the unit.

Gun them Down!: O’kais knows full well the consequences of allowing foes to reach tau lines. If O’kais’s unit is assaulted, his unit may take a leadership test. If passed, they may shoot one of the attacking units during the assault phase. This occurs after the enemy has moved his models, but before “defenders react”. If you chose to do this, O’kais’s unit may not strike back in that assault phase, nor do they benefit from photon grenades, as they have sacrificed a stable footing in melee for a better firing stance.

[Very shooty. He might be a better option vs. mechanized armies, as you would have a reasonable shot at putting a serious hurt on a rhino rush if he's in a maxed-out squad. Gun them down! might seem overly powerful, until you realize that he might screw up the leadership roll, and that by the time assault occurs, you will probably have lost some models anyways from shooting.]

I'm going to do this in sections:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

I think you may have overcompinsated for the slight underpoweredness of the Fire Warrior. Even 4+ Guard Vets are 10pts a peice before weapons. I agree with free photon grenades & bonding, but I'd increase the additional model cost to at least 9pts. Personaly I'd rather have the Firewarriors be worth their 10-12 points then drop in cost and become more horde. I've always seen them as a smaller, better trained and equiped fighting force. Like a midrange between IG & Marines. Athough I agree with the pulse carbine becoming 2 shot, it starts to make the rifle pale in comparison.

BODYGUARD SQUAD: For every ethereal in the army, you may take 1 Bodyguard Firewarrior squad. This squad does not take up a FOC selection but is treated as a troop choice in every other respect. You may take one as one of your mandatory troop choices.

Statline: as firewarriors, except the squad has ld8 base, and effective ld 9 from a built in veteran shas’vre. The unit is bs4 and ws 3.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
75 points (10x5 + 25)
USR: stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Special Rule:

Bodyguards: You may allocate an extra wound on each bodyguard instead of allocating them to an attached independent character.

Options:
The squad may take up to 6 additional members for 10 points each.
Any bodyguard may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
3 models may take markerlights for 10 points each.

[Basically a replacement for those bs4 bodyguards in the HQ section I never seen anyone use. They have the "normal" max squad size of 12 instead of 18.]

I've used and loved those bodyguards BS4 Fire Warriors are deadly. The main issue I have with them is they're not troops, meaning you can't claim with them, forcing you to put your etherial forward. But I digress. My issues with this are the same as the FW above.

Aun’shi
One firewarrior or bodyguard squad in the army may take Aun'shi.

80 points
WS 4
BS 0
S3
T3
A3
I4
W2
Ld 10
Sv. (4+)

USR: Stubborn, Counter Attack, Preferred Enemy.
Wargear: Honor Blade, (counts as that unit’s bonding knife, +2S) Shield Generator.

Special Rules:

Ethereal: Aun’shi’s unit may reroll all leadership tests, including successful tests. He grants his unit stubborn. If he dies, all tau within 12'' must take a leadership check or fall back.

Honored One: Aun’shi is considered an “honorary” member of the fire caste due to his bravery and ferocity in battle. He grants his unit counter attack and preferred enemy.

Lucky: Aun’shi is considered an incredible source of luck, a belief widely embraced by members of the fire caste. Aun’shi and his unit may reroll all armor, cover, or invul saves.

[Basically, anyone who complains about the fragility of firewarriors would like this version of the character. He will keep that unit sitting on the objective long wnough to see turn 5 even without a devilfish, and stubborn keeps the pesky IG from trying scare you off with a psyker squad. but if you end up with no cover save...well, that would be bad.

Still, rerolling saves is huge, hence the pricetag.]

I'd specify that he's counts as the Etherial, so you can't take him and an etherial in the same squad. And although this doesn't feal like Aun'shi to me, I don't see anything inarently bad about this guy.

Shas’o’Kais (the one from the decent novel/crappy game)
One firewarrior, bodyguard, or pathfinder squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui/shas’vre with Shas’O’Kais.

60 points
WS 4
BS 5
S3
T3
A2
I3
W1
Ld. 9
Sv 4+

USR: Tank Hunter, Stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse rifle with underslung markerlight. (He may exchange it for a pulse carbine with under slung markerlight for free.), Bonding knife, Photon and EMP grenades.

Special Rules:

Crack Marksmen: O’kais has battled numerous times with monstrous creatures and enemy tanks, and he and his squad know how to use their pulse weapons to deadliest effect, aiming for weak points on enemy infantry and armor. His unit’s shooting attack benefit from rending and tank hunter USR’s. This also affects seeker missiles fired from the unit.

Gun them Down!: O’kais knows full well the consequences of allowing foes to reach tau lines. If O’kais’s unit is assaulted, his unit may take a leadership test. If passed, they may shoot one of the attacking units during the assault phase. This occurs after the enemy has moved his models, but before “defenders react”. If you chose to do this, O’kais’s unit may not strike back in that assault phase, nor do they benefit from photon grenades, as they have sacrificed a stable footing in melee for a better firing stance.

[Very shooty. He might be a better option vs. mechanized armies, as you would have a reasonable shot at putting a serious hurt on a rhino rush if he's in a maxed-out squad. Gun them down! might seem overly powerful, until you realize that he might screw up the leadership roll, and that by the time assault occurs, you will probably have lost some models anyways from shooting.]

During the FPS, Kais wasn't a shas'o, and he doesn't have a shas'o's stats. But that's a naming argument. I'd be nice to see him with some personal advantage along with unit upgrades. There was an old White Dwarf that listed him with the ability to take any 2 weapons from a long list, and made him Relentless. I like them having tank hunters, but Rending might be a little overpowered as a unit upgrade.

Fire warriors should be BS4. This makes them slightly less surviveable than sisters of battle, slightly stronger against 5+ saves, but slightly weaker against 4+ or stronger. I believe this is balanced.

Kroot rifles should be assault 1, 18" weapons. This makes them slightly weaker at shooting, but allows them to be good in the counter-assault role they were designed for.

Vespid Strain Leaders should be 16 points, vespid should be BS4. Neutron Blaster should be AP1, so it would also be decent anti light vehicle and anti-terminator.

Battlesuit commanders should no be 1+
Fire Warriors should not be 1+

Battlesuits, Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, and all Vehicles should be BS4. They are a shooty army FFS, they should be good at shooting.

I think that would fix just about everything.

The Revelator wrote:Fire warriors should be BS4. This makes them slightly less surviveable than sisters of battle, slightly stronger against 5+ saves, but slightly weaker against 4+ or stronger. I believe this is balanced.

Making Fire Warriors BS4 is one solution, but I don't think it's nessisaraly the best one.

Kroot rifles should be assault 1, 18" weapons. This makes them slightly weaker at shooting, but allows them to be good in the counter-assault role they were designed for.

I compleatly disagree. As far as I can tell, they were designed for area denial and objective holding, both of which would become almost majorly weakened with Assault 1 18" weapons. They're also good for outflanking, which is the only time such a weapon would be useful. In 75% of my games, my Kroot kill more with their guns then they do with their assault.

Vespid Strain Leaders should be 16 points, vespid should be BS4. Neutron Blaster should be AP1, so it would also be decent anti light vehicle and anti-terminator.

I Haven't played with them, so I don't know

Battlesuit commanders should no be 1+
Fire Warriors should not be 1+

Yeah, they're gitting rid of most of that with the new publications anyway.

Battlesuits, Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, and all Vehicles should be BS4. They are a shooty army FFS, they should be good at shooting.

I think that would fix just about everything.

Personaly, I think that would be more like bandaid then a true fix. But it would help.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I'm going to do this in sections:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

I think you may have overcompinsated for the slight underpoweredness of the Fire Warrior. Even 4+ Guard Vets are 10pts a peice before weapons. I agree with free photon grenades & bonding, but I'd increase the additional model cost to at least 9pts. Personaly I'd rather have the Firewarriors be worth their 10-12 points then drop in cost and become more horde. I've always seen them as a smaller, better trained and equiped fighting force. Like a midrange between IG & Marines. Athough I agree with the pulse carbine becoming 2 shot, it starts to make the rifle pale in comparison.

They're reallly 6 points, since all IG choices pay an extra 10 for a vet sarge (ld 8). really, vets are 6 points, and 9 points with a doctrines (like 4+ save).

Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)

Besides, you know what other unit has a max squad size of 20? chaos marines, another "elite unit". I rest my case.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

Vespids need a 4+ save they are just to fragile especially out in the open or assault.

Che-Vito wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

then I suppose you will ALSO tell me it wouldn't make sense fluffwise for guardian defender squads to have a max squad size of 20, seeing as the eldar are, let's see, ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION.

Furthermore, a unit is going to stay alive longer by using ANTI-INFANTRY guns in an increasingly MECHANIZED enviroment to "whitle down" enemies? When in order to remove heavy/special weapons you need to kill a infantry squad to the last? Even in cases where you could kill a enemy unit right off the bat and make you units survive better, guss what - 90 of the time the unit will be a vehicle, and guess what fw's can't kill. That's right, tanks.

This arguement is insane. it's like saying that Thousand Sons are more surviable than plague marines because Thousand Sons are shootier.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

then I suppose you will ALSO tell me it wouldn't make sense fluffwise for guardian defender squads to have a max squad size of 20, seeing as the eldar are, let's see, ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION.

Furthermore, a unit is going to stay alive longer by using ANTI-INFANTRY guns in an increasingly MECHANIZED enviroment to "whitle down" enemies? When in order to remove heavy/special weapons you need to kill a infantry squad to the last? Even in cases where you could kill a enemy unit right off the bat and make you units survive better, guss what - 90 of the time the unit will be a vehicle, and guess what fw's can't kill. That's right, tanks.

This arguement is insane. it's like saying that Thousand Sons are more surviable than plague marines because Thousand Sons are shootier.

For the Eldar, maybe it doesn't make sense...I don't care, I don't play Eldar.

The Battlesuits, Tau vehicles, and Broadsides are more than enough for anti-armor. The Fire Warriors are infantry. If you read Tau fluff, their forces are very regimented for a specific role, and the Tau army works when all units are performing at their sychronized best.

5th Edition gave a definite advantage to CC units, as far as movement goes. The Tau will survive with more certainty if they keep enemies at a distance, so yes, by playing Tau correctly and using BS4, they can be much more "survivable" by keeping most infantry out of shooting or CC range.

Neconilis wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Bravo sir, bravo.

Really? The meta game has shifted towards pure armor lists even further then before due to battle psykers, executioners and generally everything in the new IG dex. As a result the meta-game is playing to the strength of the tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and generally speaking this idea of a fan made broken dex is entirely filled with fail, aids and more fail. You should all be ashamed of asking for more from an army that you can't seem to field with the efficiency demanded by the eterial caste.

Kungfuhustle does have an excellent point about meta games and mech. Tau are well equipped to take down mech armies. However, specializing for that leaves Tau very vulnerable to hordes (and by very vulnerable, I mean ankle-grabbing). Tau have a tough time generalizing, due to the lack of special/heavy weapons in FW squads. Tau also have a difficult time achieving wipe-outs, for obvious reasons (CC being the king of wipe-outs), thus leaving them in a spoiler role.

Tau do need some minor fixes-FW need to drop to 8 points, with free leader + bonding.
Pathfinders-Stealth, Move through Cover. Maybe -1 pt/model. Free leader + bonding.
Kroot-Stealth, Move through Cover. Shaper-can take rending/power weapon-16 points total with rending, 18 with power weapon.
Krootox-these guys need a redo. They're just wacky. Unless they get some (non-overcosted) Ogryn-like role. In fact, I might just start a thread for them separately.
Vespids-S4 Assault 2 AP3 weapons. -2 points/model.
Skyray-same rule as Hydra regarding SMF. Still probably won't get taken, as the Railhead is made of sex & win.
Drone KP issues-only FA drones & DEPLOYED drone squadrons from vehicle squadrons (i.e. Piranhas) count for KP. Dfish drones join the unit inside the Dfish, and don't count as KP if the Dfish eats it before deploying.
Marker drones-go down by 10 points.
Sniper teams-go down by 15 points.
Dpod-+10 points.

That's the quick'n'dirty fix list (i.e., WD fix list).

Extended version - Tau need a signature mechanic. Probably their most likely mechanic is markerlights. They are synergy on a stick. They scream 'for the greater good'. Increased access to markerlights, or greater effects, will probably be the order of the day.

I might post more later...got to go to lunch.

You know, 18-man squads of Fire Warriors are starting to sound pretty good. I often take 18-man Kroot squads to hold backfield objectives by just going to ground in cover and having lots of wounds, but 18 Fire Warriors could follow the same role while laying down lots of medium range fire. Leave one squad of 18 in the back, send forward a couple squads of 12 in D-fish to rapid fire things.

Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Kungfuhustler wrote:Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Tau are fine at killing hordes, if they specialize for it. But that leaves them vulnerable to mech. Again, Tau do not have the flexibility to generalize.

And what squads of 18 FW are you talking about? 6x12 (max size) FW @10 ea, + 10 for sarge, +5 (IIRC) for bonding knife: 810. That can be multicharged to death. Gunlines are dead. And let's say they all shoot in RF range: 144 shots*.5=72 hits. 2/3 wound (vs. T4)=48 wounds. 4+Cover save=24 wounds. This means 810 points of FW just took out 288 or 144 points (4+ cover save) of Orks. Orks that are within 12". Good luck. Outside RF range halves the wound results. Orks shoot back (again, max troop choices all within range, to keep it fair). 132 Orks left*Assault 2*.33 chance to hit=87 hits. 5/6 wound=72 wounds. 1/2 save (4+ armor)=36 dead FW. 3 whole squads...or 2 of your 18 strong squads just ate it-405 points of FW. See where this is going?

Edit: you mentioned 18 strong squads...increases cost outlay by 360 points, results in 1/3rd more kills. Not very efficient.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
Oh, and generally speaking this idea of a fan made broken dex is entirely filled with fail, aids and more fail. You should all be ashamed of asking for more from an army that you can't seem to field with the efficiency demanded by the eterial caste.

Ethereal. Not Eterial. You should be ashamed of being unable to spell with the accuracy demanded by your 6th grade instructors.

I especially like your comment comparing fan-dexes to AIDS, Kungfu.

Personally, I have seen few well-thought out codices be broken. In fact, I frequently allow my opponents to field such, knowing that a good deal of playtesting and so forth went into constructing them.

2 prime examples are Kompletely Kroot's Kroot codex, and the Necron codex written by...Sekhmet? I've forgotten the name.

Both codices have functioned well when I've played against them.

Of course, perhaps I'm being picky. You did say, "in general". Perhaps there are many fan-made dexes that are over-powered. On the other hand, using such logic, I could say that, in general, your posts seem to contribute very little to any topic you're engaged in, suffer poor grammar and spelling, and often state things that are patently untrue and/or impossible to prove (SEE, your last two posts in this thread.) But then, perhaps you do post insightful posts elsewhere. Where those fan-dexes are, no doubt.

bthom37 wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Tau are fine at killing hordes, if they specialize for it. But that leaves them vulnerable to mech. Again, Tau do not have the flexibility to generalize.

And what squads of 18 FW are you talking about? 6x12 (max size) FW @10 ea, + 10 for sarge, +5 (IIRC) for bonding knife: 810. That can be multicharged to death. Gunlines are dead. And let's say they all shoot in RF range: 144 shots*.5=72 hits. 2/3 wound (vs. T4)=48 wounds. 4+Cover save=24 wounds. This means 810 points of FW just took out 288 or 144 points (4+ cover save) of Orks. Orks that are within 12". Good luck. Outside RF range halves the wound results. Orks shoot back (again, max troop choices all within range, to keep it fair). 132 Orks left*Assault 2*.33 chance to hit=87 hits. 5/6 wound=72 wounds. 1/2 save (4+ armor)=36 dead FW. 3 whole squads...or 2 of your 18 strong squads just ate it-405 points of FW. See where this is going?

Edit: you mentioned 18 strong squads...increases cost outlay by 360 points, results in 1/3rd more kills. Not very efficient.

The point of a 18 man fw team is not to increase firepower so much as it is to make them A: more resilient to shooting while dismounted, due to more wounds, more casulties needed for morale checks, and so on. This would make them a realistic alternative to kroot as dismounted objective holders. note that the two special character provided were designed with the need for the squad to stay alive in their design - one character grants extra shooting vs. assualters, the other rerollable saves. either way, the squad is more likely to stay alive as a result. Granted, the squad may not be useful offensively again anything except infantry and the odd sentinel, but a squad of them would syngergize well with crisis suit teams if only by drawing deadlier fire from the suits.

On the other side of the coin, 12 man teams under the current statblock would cost less (meaning more points for devilfish upgrades), and be more realistically able to dismount and attack due to assult 2 carbines, which would give them more breathing room. By keeping their base cost the same, but decreasing their member cost, you can encourage players to use non-minimum fw's in fish-of-fury attacks instead of just dumping the points into more suits or something like that.

It benefits GW as well - by making carbines better (when most people use rifles exclusively), and increasing fw squad sizes, they could get even veteran players to buy firewarriors again, either to get more carbines or to just get more fw's.

Finally, the squad would avoid stepping on the toes of kroot or pathfinders as troops - pathfinders would still hold the more niche role of putting down markerlights and such, and kroot would still possess alternative deployment options as well as their mild assault abilities.