The new edition mostly seems to make it much more challenging and frustrating to have a Tau army. Theoretically they'll make things better again with a new Tau codex; what do YOU think they'd need to change to make Tau armies better again? Or, do you think they aren't really so bad off as it is (maybe it's the players that have to change)?

I think Tau are fine. Thier codex is not old at all and many people still believe it is a strong one. In fact I am not sure but I think Tau won at the BIIG WAAGH!

i think it is how you player them and from the tau players i have seen they are still leathal

Sure, some people wouldn't change anything - how bad off any faction has it is all subjective I guess.

Some things make the "old way" of playing Tau more frustrating, like the line of sight/cover rules and the skimmer rules maybe. Above all I don't think Tau have very useful Troops - this was already true, but they're more required with the new objectives rules. I'm not sure what would be the best specific way to give Tau better Troops, though...

Just a few pieces of gear and the Ethereal abilities need updated to do anything useful.

Countermeasures - Need to work on any immobilized result, not just when glanced.

Pirhannas - Need a points redux to reflect their nerfing.

Command pods - Need to work like company banners for SM, 12" for regular and 18" for Shadowsun.

Target Locks - Need to work automatically, if they don't already.

Ion Burst Cannon - Special rules removed, regular rending added.

Fire Warriors - Make them buyable in packages like SM squads, with some goodies already included like grenades and a squad leader. 75 points for 6, 10 points for each additional member. Same with Pathfinders.

Pathfinders - Take away the silly DFish requirement, make it optional.

Kroot - More options from Kroot mercenaries, assault grenade option (or included), fix their woods/jungle ability to be more in line with the rest of the armies...or just give them "Stealth" and/or "Move through Cover" special rule.

All big skimmers (Sky Ray, Dfish, Hammerhead) - Fix inconsistencies with secondary weapons systems (wierd cost differences/freebies for each).

Disruption pod - should cost more (10 points?) for big vehicles (see above), keep same price for Pirhahnas.

Markerlights - Take out the difference between networked and normal to simplify. Bring costs in-line regardless of which way they go.

Drones - Re-write the rules a bit to clarify what they are and what they do.

Ethereals - Make then some kind of useful, don't care what they do.

Stealth suits as troops. Stealth suit were made to hold objectives. Give the Tau a troop that can hold objectives effectively and they're more or less good.

More ally aliens to add to the army list, races that have joined the greater good

USEFUL ally aliens, at that.

The Tau are in an odd spot...their rules still work fairly well, but I think they have lost some of their strength with the new ruleset. Not enough to warrant an immediate change, as there are many other codexes in more dire need. They can still be played, but they're weaker now overall.

The points above regarding firewarriors are most accurate, I think. They are poor troops, overall, and the necessity to take more of them is really annoying.

Give Kroot more options, make FW better, or have a new troop choice. Plus Devil fish need a point redux.

Tau are doing OK in tournaments so far which I think reflects the idea that they have always been a tricky army to use well, but work very well when handled properly, and so they attract better players.

I agree with most of what PolecatEZ posted, though there are a few things I would do differently.

Pathfinders would get almost no benefit from networking their Markerlights, and do not deserve a points increase for it. So if GW insist on simplifying the situation, just make all Markerlights Networked and keep the costs as they are.

I don't like the idea of bundling FWs with grenades, since it removes the option of saving the points and keeping your FWs out of assault range.

I would like to see either a slight cost reduction for FW and/or else raise their Rapid Fire range to 15 inches with pulse rifle. Admittedly this would make carbines less attractive, except for their Pinning ability.

Ethereals should give +1 Ld to all native Tau figures. This would compensate Tau for being about the only army in the game that can't easily get Ld9 or 10. Let the Ethereal to be bought as an add-on to a Troop unit rather than an HQ unit by himself, since many Tau armies want the extra HQ slot for another battlesuit and also he won’t work on Kroot, Drones or Vespids.

I think Kroot could be given grenades but they should not be made too good in assault. Maybe they could have cheaper EMP grenades (which are too expensive) to give them a bit of an anti-tank role. They are a pretty good cheap unit when woods are in the game.

Something needs to be done about Vespids. As far as I know no-one ever uses them. Three points reduction of cost would be the easiest thing.

do drones still have terible leadership? why do they even have leadership, should be a throw away fearless unit assualt speed bump.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Something needs to be done about Vespids. As far as I know no-one ever uses them. Three points reduction of cost would be the easiest thing.

Vespids need to go back to an original concept, radiation guns. S2 or S3, AP3 template. Massed hits will make up for lack of strength, it will make the vespid into both an anti horde and anti MEQ roll. It also wouldn't hurt to reduce their cost a little bit... 13-15 points sounds about right.

Tau are fine.

It's you, the general, that has the issue if you cannot win with this army.

I like the idea of making the Vespid guns template weapons. Even better, give them the option of a variety of weapons.

I think the main issue with Tau is with Devilfish and Troops choices. I play Farsight Enclave which means no Kroot, so I won't talk about them. Fire Warriors are great when they can sit and shoot or Fish of Fury. In my lists Devilfish are just too expensive. I am suit heavy so the only devilfish I have belongs to my Pathfinders and helps with my deep strikes. So in an objective based game I am forced to play over offensively. Its not a matter of just taking an objective from an enemy and sitting on my own. I could drop suits and take more Fire Warriors in Devilfish. In 1500 points I have a squad of 12 and 2 squads of 8. I can't divert more resources into troops and transport and maintain the style of army I play. Tau have great units, I find they are costed fairly for the most part but the new rules have changed the dynamics of gameplay in 5th edition and they don't suit the way Tau armies were designed in 4th.

DonkeyCannon:

From the anecdotal evidence you present us with, we can only draw the conclusion that the new rules have changed the dynamics of gameplay in 5th edition and they don't suit the way your Tau army was designed in 4th edition.

Adapt and overcome.

sure but that would mean not playing farsight enclave.

Or changing the way that your Farsight Enclave army is configured. Could you please post it in the Army List forum?

Make the Space Pope worth taking.

Give the Kroot the stealth rule

lower the price of Stealth suits (25 points each, same as Sternguard)

Maybe lower the cost of devilfish as well.

Give me some other unit as troops. (maybe a special charater that lets stealth suits count as troops, farsight lets Crisis suits count as troops)

Lower the cost for Vespids.

Make Disruptor pods cost more (Yes it needs to be done)

Do you think Games Workshop would be more likely to beef up Fire Warriors and Kroot at the current price, or leave their stats the same while making them cheaper? (I think I'd rather have them better for the same cost...)

Tau are organized and well equipped. I would predict they will keep the firewarriors the same cost and give them free grenades just like they did the marines. There isn't really too much they can lower them without changing the dynamic of the army.

Kroot give them a +1 cover save and move through cover in any terrain. Instead of a kroot shaper providing worthless armor to his kroot, why not just change it to crude frag grenades for +1 point. (LOL I can see two players setting up a friendly game and one reaches for buildings and the tau player reaching for trees... arguement ensues as they can't agree on the terrain.)

Make the carbine a more effective weapon for the Tau. Perhaps give it a ROF of 2 OR ROF 1 S 3 or 4 AP - Blast pinning. (The fluff of this is the supposed grenade launcher they have ) Albeit in the short-ranged setups of the 5th edition, that could be the death knell of the pulse rifle. Then again, GW would be selling a lot of Firewarrior boxes to get people to replace their rifle lines.

I agree, make the drones fearless and if you change the carbine as above only allow it the ROF 2 regular shots.

Stelek wrote:Tau are fine.

It's you, the general, that has the issue if you cannot win with this army.

I agree. Tau will get a new codex in the future at a point anyway

Yeah, I'm not expecting or requesting a new codex any time soon. I just figure, as a Tau player, that this is an interesting way to discuss the perceived strengths and weaknesses of the Tau rules.

why do people say that tau have one of the worst troop units in the game WTF. you have 30 in. s5 guns why are you whining

10 points for WS2, S3, T3 4+Sv and LD 7.

Thats why. Sisters (to use one example) have better LD, better armor, better BS, better WS and access to faith for 1 more point. The current firewarrior is overcosted vs survivability.

Having S5 guns is only good if you live long enough to shoot them. Firewarriors don't live long to any amount of sustained incoming fire.

I personally think the FW is worth about 8 points, but I'll happily live with them as they are and not depend on them to do much except grab and try to hold an objective on the last turn.

GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT CAN HOLD UP IN CC OR OVERWATCH!


Thats all we need something to bolster the FW.. Something that we fight off Drop Pod into line in one turn. I am sorry but we can not handle assault give us some kind of alien or something with 3 armor and a power weapon or rending or something. FW they can not handle anything, with the adding of everyone getting cover saves. It like giving fire warriors a gun and ask them to shot there own head. in 4th it was the ability to kill marine units at about 24 inches and do it well to hold off the tide. Now with cover saves and marines in groups of even 2 can whip a unit. Cover saves and this whole thing about mixing units to give each other 4+ in the open.. well point blaster on chin, aim up and fire....

In the fluff it speaks about how tech the tau is... Then explain to me why we do not have Overwatch!!.. One of the most advanced gun army in the game sets there and watches Fleeting Marines and other assault armies run up to us and hits us with out pulling the trigger? Umm, it talks about how the Tau are hunters... We are Hunter Cadres. We hunt.. not set there and watch the pretty Marine teleport in and hit us upon first turn.

YES!! we have the best basic weapon in the game. we have a Str 5 ap 4 gun that shoot 30. But with the rules of running and flank and everything else. Every game I played 30 in range mean nothing. So I can shoot far but when the chainsword is in my chest.. who cares?

Vespid Rock with there guns.. Marines hate them but they also can be defeated with 3 marines in hand to hand and there weapons are same range as a fleeting assault marine. They don't get to shoot. A ten man squad of Vespid with str 5 AP3 and a couple of marker lights thrown in as support to up there bs to five worked like butter in 4th. But with cover save there in the crapper. in 4th I used 29 Vespid as counter charge in my gun lines. Now.. there just like fire warrior they set there and watch chainsword rip them apart


Kroot. waste of points. They are cool but can't hold up in hand to hand with the new rules. Stathammer a 10 man squad of marines and 20 man unit of Kroot. most of the time Kroot will lose with LD 7 Marines will use there str 4 and power weapons vs t 3 and cause more wounds and kroot lose combat and when come to ld rolls ld 7 suck as a base!

Tau need something like Over Watch. The gun Line is dead in 5th untill there is something that can stop assault armies.

Farsight Army is only thinig I have come up with that may have a chance but only against MEQ. I have enough AP 3 Weapons and speed in suits and mech, but agains horde its dead.

There is no one list that can be stand up to all types of Warhammer. There is no balance army to hold back the tide!

Sorry for the rant.

Give firewarriors photon grenades for free.
Give Kroot the option to buy assault grenades.
Allow all devilfish (not just pathfinder devilfish) to outflank.
Make gun drone squads fearless.

There have been some pretty dire complaints here... not all of them valid if I may say so.

That said, there are a couple of things I'd like to see. This is just thinking out loud, and not at all playtested for any kind of balance.


The way I read GW's basic philosophy about Tau, they are supposed to have little in the way of CC, and be the best shooting army in nearly every respect. The reason I'm stating the obvious, is that I would not do a whole lot to "fix" Tau CC. Kroot should at best be mediocre and/or flawed in that regard. Instead, I would make their shooting have more options, and be able to give them a lot of flexibility in how they fight.

An example of this would be the following change to carbines: If carbine shots force a pinning test, unless the unit is pinned or goes to ground regardless of any leadership factors or fearlessness then the number of savable wounds suffered by the target unit doubles. The idea being that the grenade launchers on the carbine volleys are so intense, that it gives its victims a hard choice.

This kind of change would really give Tau carbines a very useful role... namely slowing the enemy. Actually, I believe that was their inteded role, but it doesn't seem very good at it these days for one reason or another. Again, not thought all the way through, but interesting.

Some fun things I've been noodling:

Railguns:
-Should cause instant death regardless of toughness, or at least cause two wounds. This would really help out vs. nidzilla. Immunity to instant death would not be circumvented by this rule; and/or
-Can only pen

Vespid:
As is, I believe they might need a point reduction. Alternatively an increase in range or rate of fire of the neutron blaster (or making it 24" rapid fire) would make them more desirable. Maybe they should be able to move in the assault phase (full 12") if they don't move in the movement phase. That would make them very interesting. Drop fleet

XV8's: I just wanna see some new guns & support systems. We don't really need 'em, but I just think it'd be cool

Kroot should probably have 5+ armor. That wouldn't be game breaking, and would make me like them a lot more. Points could be increased slightly to compensate.

I have more, but have to go. Thoughts? Flames?

Rmeju

we could talk for hours and things that could be added in, so I'll try to keep to the current codex vs. new additions.

-Making railguns any better than they already are might be overkill. Maaaaaybe warrant giving broadsides submunitions, but I have a feeling that would be significantly unbalanced. It just frankly irks me that the army only has 2 blast weapons (if I'm remembering correctly), one of which is essentially commander-only.

-Vespid could virtually be scrapped and redone. They're conceptually super snazzy, but poor in execution, even in the edition they were designed for.

-Only change Kroot need is to swap their useless 4e junk rules for Stealth and Move Through Cover. Done. Praying for your table's organizer to put forests on the board so your kroot don't explode is dumb. Only 2 units still benefit from specific 'kinds' of terrain (kroot and chimeras), and the chimera rule is going to go I'll wager.

-Please, GW, make Krootox and Shapers worth taking! Krootox imo should at least be relentless, and given a decent armour save to represent their ox like resiliency. I said armour over toughness increases since increased toughness would do nothing at all (majority toughness rules), and the low toughness maintains the instant death aspect of the kroot getting blown away while the krootox wanders off untouched. Shapers, I'm sort of at a loss. Make them stronger CC combatants or cut their cost? I really like their support-based aspect, which should be emphasized a little better than Ld8 and a 6+ save. Besides, paying out the nose for a 6+ save is slowed. Even though I'm biased, I'd like to see the multi-racial aspect of the Tau emphasized more. and by 'mutli-racial' I mean an army of backwater aliens, virtually enslaved by the Tau. Yes, I don't buy into the goody goody image the Tau PR machine has churned out . They're all dirty cold-blooded space-communists if you ask me! Besides, their shiny, selfless "we love everyone for the Greater Good" vibe is so unfitting for the "lulz we're all badass jerks" future of 40k. GW needs to play up their cold, calculating, "join us or die, and probably still die anyway" Borg-y style. That's just me of course.

Come to think of it, a third non-Tau race addition could be neat. Or properly implement converted humans. Letting us use their heavy weapons would be cool, though we don't really need more boring static firepower.

-Crisis are fine atm, its a sad fact that when you give a unit so many options, the only ones worth taking become apparent quickly and the unit loses most of it's apparent variety.

-I wouldn't say Fire Warriors are bad right now, by any stretch. I like the free photon grenades though, that makes sense to me. Bare minimum, Pathfinders should have both 'nades for free though I don't frankly see the EMPs getting much use, it fits the nature of the pathfinders. 'finders with Stealth would be nice, and completely unreasonable

-Seekers should be AP1. 10 points=rediculous for a krak missile. Hell, I'd take a hunter-killer over a seeker these days, at least you're not 'wasting' markerlights on them. Don't get me wrong, I really want to use seekers, particularly for side and rear shots with my Devilfish and Piranha. I can just never justify it. AP1 or 5pt cost would be the way to go imo. This would turn Skyrays into glorified Exorcists, but that's ok. Speaking of which a 3rd battle tank variant would be wicked, maybe something anti-infantry with, say, a tank-sized Burst Cannon-equivalent, maybe rending? I think IA had something similar, but they all had normal boring Crisis suit statlines on their guns. Ooh, an actual heavy gun drone squadron would be sweet. Though I guess that's all a Crisis suit is

-someone mentioned overwatch and droppod armies. Here's a solution, two birds with one stone! Give the Ethereals the same power Inquisitor retinue Mystics have, and BLAM. Ethereals aren't gak anymore, and Tau don't get smashed to hell by drop pods anymore.


Overall, the army is still in fantastic shape for 5th ed, and we should neither need nor expect a new codex any time soon. But, like all codices, there are far too many entries I want to use in concept that in practice just don't cut it.

- Pardon my ignorance...but, Is 'overwatch' the rule that lets you shoot DSers within a certain radius? If it is, then I fully agree.

- How about Upping the cost of Crisis suits (by a moderate amount 50+) and allowing the player to freely choose weapons at the start of EVERY game (and MAYBE support options...but never HW stuff). It would hurt us points-wise, but the tactical edge would be huge. Would you take a 300pt unit of 3 suits if it had flamers/BC when you fought nids and PR/FB vs 'crons, etc...? Could this be made to work? (obviously I am thinking in a tournament mindset, where you need a TakeAllComers army from the start)

- I suppose it is almost Anti-tradition, but rail rifles (one per four FWs) in FW squads...why not make them ANTI-INFANTRY...instead of anti light troops.

- As I am quite tired I will see if this makes sense in the morning.

Freefall wrote:Is 'overwatch' the rule that lets you shoot DSers within a certain radius? If it is, then I fully agree.

It's not. You're thinking of the ability the daemonhunter's Mystics provide, though I don't think it has a finite name for it's ability. Overwatch, if I'm not mistaken, is a rather old 40k rule, though I'm not familiar with it specifically. By definition the term overwatch basically means to be vigilant for enemies to show up in LOS and within range, and you then promptly fill them with shells of all calibre.

The idea of on-the-spot equipped Crisis suits probably could not work, as you would be unable to accurately portray it on your models. Say, at the start of the match, you decide to equip one team with TL fusion and shield generators, and another squad with plasma and missile pods. How are you (and more importantly your enemy) going to be able to tell which is which? You could magnetize your suits, as alot of people do, but that's not really a reasonable baseline expectation. It would make our suits whip rediculous amounts of ass though!

The Defenestrator wrote:The idea of on-the-spot equipped Crisis suits probably could not work, as you would be unable to accurately portray it on your models. Say, at the start of the match, you decide to equip one team with TL fusion and shield generators, and another squad with plasma and missile pods. How are you (and more importantly your enemy) going to be able to tell which is which? You could magnetize your suits, as alot of people do, but that's not really a reasonable baseline expectation. It would make our suits whip rediculous amounts of ass though!

- Then again, we are talking about a game where my entire army could very well be represented by marshmallows of various sizes. Yes, I was taking magnetizing into account when I typed that up. On the other hand...you could just buy a ton of suits and make several per setup...that line of thought should guarantee GW will like my new rule.

You'll have to excuse me, I'm far too particular about my WYSIWYG Nasty habit of mine, being such a visual creature.

And don't talk about this idea too loudly, GW might go for it and ban rare earth metals from all tournaments and gaming tables while they're at it

I am just brain storming and could be going on a limb, but I will float this idea to you all. In basic Warhamer 40k there is only on tank that comes with AA that I can think of and that is the SkyRay.

Why not give it a chance to be a Anti Aircraft Mount.

Every other AA Tank is only used in Forgeworld, because it is the in that rules you get Flyers. Why make us pay for AA in a tank that will never use its ability in a basic game.


Give it a chance to knock pods down. on a 6 or 5 it get to fire a missle at a pod before it lands. Then it will stop us bitching about not getting any defense against pods and assault will now feel at least there is a chance

Have I gone to far?

Over watch is a rule from 2nd ed.

Basically:

You forgo moving and firing in your turn. Then on the next enemy turn you get to stop any movement and declare your shooting. Basically give gun line to pick the range they want when a units charges them. I move my genes at my fire warrior squad. The tau player then informs the genes they must stop 9 inches away from the firewarriors and the fire warriors pull the triggers. kills 4 of them, then after shooting they finish there movement and then assault. All it does is allow the defender to fire on a incoming unit as it charges instead of sitting there with the mouths open. But then there is a bad thing also. If nothing come into view that units wastes a movement and a fire turn.

That is overwatch]


Or what it does is allow a shooting turn as the assault marine jump from cover and boost at the gun line. This is in because of the idea that men would not just set there as there getting assaulted and give a gun line a scare factor to assault armies who now have to be smart about hitting gun lines.. and also why you all have assault land raiders. in 2nd you would use that wonderfull armor to run in front of gun lines and assault out of tanks!

its early sorry for bad grammer

- Overwatch seems like overkill (sorry about the pun LoL). I think shooting at DSers and infiltrators would be better because the enemy can willingly not get shot, but then have to walk into our wall-o-ouch or outflank. It would enhance our "we shoot you from far away aspect".

Yes.. Free Fall... but the problem is this. What army walk across the table any more. Our Range is no longer a threat


Orks: do but when you can field 120 orcs and everyone gets cover saves because there mixed together.

Every one else transports now. Str 5 will not cut the mustered.

Stern Guard and even basic marines in pods drop an inch away and bolter your units to death or you get the 18 inch Fleeting Assault marines.

It's been a while since I worked with my Tau, but one thing I always wanted to see was the ability to give upgraded weapons to a Gun Drone. FW handled some of that with their Heavy Gun Drones, but I don't think they really went far enough. Specifically, I'd like to see Heavy Gun Drones opened up to use all of the regular Crisis weaponry. In addition, make a new option for the Drone Controller the ability to take a single Heavy Gun Drone instead of 1-2 Gun Drones (sort of like Terminator Armor takes up two model slots in transports).

Not really sure about how to handle the fact that it usually feels like Tau are designed to play a game different than all of the other armies (ie ranged-only instead of CC).

Think your codex is bad? Go play CSM. Or dark eldar. Or space wolves for that matter...

PanzerSmurf wrote:Think your codex is bad? Go play CSM. Or dark eldar. Or space wolves for that matter...

I do not think Chaos Space Marines or Dark Eldar have it that bad in 5th edition. Sure the Dark Eldar model range sucks, but rules-wise they are pretty nice. Space Wolves I can agree on, but hey, they are getting a new codex sooner than the Tau are so.
The Tau have been absolutely murdered by the coming of 5th edition.

A small list of negative changes for the Tau:
-Their entire game was based on victory point denial, more often than not by using LOS blocking terrain to their advantage. This has gotten a lot harder to do with the true-LOS rules.
-Skimmers were nerfed (in comparison to the other tank types that is, I do know Tau have Disruption Pods and that their skimmers have become slightly more surviveable)
-The change to troops being the only scoring units really sucks for the Tau as well, as their troops are just not as good as those of the better armies.
-Shooting got worse (everyone now gets 4+ cover saves).
-And to top it all off, everyone and his grandmother got faster in 5th edition, giving the Tau less time to blow people to shreds.

To help the Tau in the new edition, I would suggest the following:
-Adjust the base price of all jump pack users. JSJ got all but terminated, so the value of the jump pack has been reduced, reduce the cost accordingly!
-Let crisis suits take the same weapons twice (like warwalkers and carnifexes)!
-Make vehicle mounted gun drones NOT give up any kill points!
-Let players pick the Devilfish's secondary weapon option (like the Hammerhead). No more paying 20 points extra for the SMS while the already included gun drones are worth the same!

I'm sure I forgot to address some issues the Tau have. These are just the first that popped into my mind.

Make Drones in general (detachable and squads) worth 0 KP. Part of the Tau army's strength was throw away units to speed bump the enemy.

As I said in the Ogryn thread, I think the Tau also need more allies:
- Donorian Clawed Fiend (more-uber Ogryns)
- Hrud (more-uber Ratlings)

These would be Elites.

The main problem with Tau in 5th is IMHO the missions. I agree that many (not all) of Airmaniac's observations are present. However it is the missions and how they interact with those points that make winning with Tau that much harder.

Frankly, I've stopped enjoying 40K with 5th edition. I tried to like it, even changed back to Eldar which seems to play okay in 5th. Right now they only way I think I could enjoy 40K is to play marines, and I am not ready to do that just now.

Next to Eldar, a remotely decent Tau list is probably one of the best armies in the game. Yes, they have some problems, the same as Guard. But where Tau don't muck about trying to be not entirely incompetent in assault like the Guard vainly does, they save their points and reinvest them in things like Battlesuits and Railguns with sub-munitions. If your Tau army is faultering, it's either because your opponent is very good at getting into assault, or you're trying to use the Tau from something their list can't reflect.

No, I'm running into KP issues with all my non-S5 weapons being worth 2+KPs and the weakest units in my army being unable to hold an objective against a strong breeze.

Frankly, with the changes to the game in 5th, it isn't hard to get the Tau in assault. Running around in Devilfish to avoid HTH and try to make it to objectives is not a fun game for me.

Edit: The changes in 5th edition wouldn't be much of an issue if it wasn't for the kill points rule and requiring all members of a unit to be wiped out to avoid contesting objectives. Those are mission rules. Under the old VP system and objective rules those problems didn't exist and I think the Tau would still be a competitive and fun army to play.

Skinnattittar wrote: If your Tau army is faultering, it's either because your opponent is very good at getting into assault, or you're trying to use the Tau from something their list can't reflect.

Thats part of the problem. It is sssooooooooo much easier to get into assault right now. Outflank, shorter deployment zones, increased tank survivability, no more entanglement, run. Need I go on? If I don't get first turn, my Tau are most likely engaged in some sort of HTH on turn 2.

Personally, I feel its just a points issue. The Tau equipment was expensive because of what it could do in 4th ed. It can't function as well in 5th ed, but it currently costs the same. Plasma rifles and sniper drones are stupidly overpriced now that everything has cover saves, JSJ has lost most of its effectiveness because of TLOS. Our tanks/vehicles are overpriced because being a skimmer is no longer nearly as benifical as it used to be. The only difference I can see between a non-fast skimmer and normal non-fast tank is dodging a Ram on a 3+. There is a reason Rhinos went down to 35 points.

If one grants the points issue, the problem is you can't solve it by an across the board points reduction unless you relax some restrictions on the amount of equipment to be taken. It's of no help to make FWs cheaper when putting more of them on the table can be a liability. More Battlesuits would be nice but the maximum possible is currently 9 in Elites.

The standard non-farsight tau list can take a total of 15 crisis suits if you really want to. 9 in elites, 6 in HQ and bodyguards. That is more than enough for probably anyone.

Yes but in a general way just making everything cheaper still doesn't work.

Some units probably ought to be cheaper and others ought to be better. Like, make Hammerheads 14/13/12 or something.

The idea of adding allies might help and fits the Tau fluff (all friends together, working for the Greater Good.) The problem is that the Tau already have everything they need except really good assault troops and that lack is one of the defining characteristics of the army.

It would be easy for example to invent a close combat drone armed with a flamethrower, flechettes and a circular saw around the rim.

Agreed.

Making my troops cheaper doesn't make them any better at seizing and holding objectives. It doesn't stop my opponent from racking up KPs with a running tac squad armed with butter knives.

It isn't too hard to get a unit below 50% with mass fire warrior squads. It is hard to completely wipe them out however which is required so often for victories. OTOH, it is fairly easy to wipe out/destory a FW squad in HTH thanks to the rules. The modifiers for losing HTH really put the hurt on troops with average LD and poor I.

I suppose I could arm all my battlesuits slightly different so I can avoid the standard wound allocation. But after reading GW's explanation of doing that multiple times, I found the process is just too painful (and still confusing) in practice. IIRC that section of the rules even admits it is much less clear. I'd rather just arm them the same to keep it simple and not have my opponent ask me what I'm doing or griping that I am taking too much time.

So much for better rules.

I'm not sure what could be changed to help the army as a whole. Rumors of Guard being able to avoid the 4+ cover save for firing through other Guard units sounds nice and helps them with all the units they can field. I just can't think of an analog for the Tau.

To save themselves in assault, give (for free) firewarrior/pathfinders a disruption grenade of some kind. In short, any Tau unit falling back from an assault cannot be killed off on a sweeping advance, all the enemy can do is consolidate.

It will help leave a few guys on the table to spit pulse death at the assaulting unit.

I donno, but Tau troop survivability is a huge problem in 5th ed.

This wouldn't make Tau any better or anything, but I had an idea for the Commander. Why not give him access to the XV22 Battlesuit? I think it would be pretty neat to give him that option. Not sure what it would do though. Maybe make him even faster in exchange for one weapon system?

Here's a thought for the Vespid: The Codex/Fluff talks alot about how they are fast moving, highly mobile, work closely with infiltrating Pathfinder teams, and outflank their enemies... further, the Codex mentions that Vespid have "diamond-hard claws" and such...

Why not give Vespid the Scout USR and Rending in close combat? Possibly, bump their strength and WS up to 4. This would make them better, though may have the potential of making them too good (Though T4 5+sv models aren't the most amazing creatures ever, even with Outflank, Rending, and Jump Packs... one bolter salvo and there goes the whole unit, especially if the strain leader gets whacked).

rmeju wrote:

Some fun things I've been noodling:

Railguns:
-Should cause instant death regardless of toughness, or at least cause two wounds. This would really help out vs. nidzilla. Immunity to instant death would not be circumvented by this rule; and/or
-Can only pen

Rmeju

Against nidzilla a unit of three broadsides with target locks would cause so great devastation. They are pretty accurate, they wound every nid monster on 2+. With good luck they could kill 2 carnifexes in a turn, if they do not get cover save (happens quite often in 5th edition). Two wounds per shot would still be a bit unbalanced I think. These kind of rules fit into weapons like titan-killers.

Your second thought would only be reasonable if railguns had ap of 2, so they wouldn't get +1 to their damage rolls. These are my thoughts.

Another idea I've mentioned before but in a different thread -- give pulse rifles a rapid fire range of 15.

Some more thoughts about this.

I'm not yet convinced that Tau have become completely uncompetitive but if they have, the way to cure it is not just to make them cheaper. Some models could be cheaper and allow more of them in a unit. For example, knock some points off the Crisis Suit and allow four in a unit. That would help.

The other way of curing things would be to make things a bit better here and there. I have mentioned raising the Hammerhead frontal armour to 14, and giving the Pulse Rifle a rapid fire range of 15. Crisis suits could be allowed four hardpoints and weapons. They could all carry a flamer as well as their normal load.

Frontal armour 14 hammerhead would be a nightmare!

If tau could get some sort of shooting defense upgrade like the orks KFF they'd be a bit better at holding objectives, yeah?

Da Boss wrote:Frontal armour 14 hammerhead would be a nightmare!

If tau could get some sort of shooting defense upgrade like the orks KFF they'd be a bit better at holding objectives, yeah?

That was just an idea I threw up.

I would like Tau to get improvements that are "fluffy" for their army. They shouldn't get good at assault and they should prefer to avoid being assaulted. In general, things that improve their firepower, mobility and ability to avoid assaults would be preferable.

Combat tactics would have been better for Tau I think. It would make them nasty.

What is Combat Tactics? I can't find it in my mini rulebook. If you have a page ref for either the mini book or the BBB I can look it up.

It's that new thing marines got? Lets them voluntarily fail morale checks to fall back out of combat?

I would like to see something along the lines of Pulse Rifles being assault 2 instead of rapid fire. Simple, but helps when your 120 point squad of guys that are only good at shooting are going to kill what, 4 or 5 orks over the 2 turns it takes to get caught in CC? 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 saved by 4+ cover. Great, you killed about 24-30 points of Orks per 120 points of firewarriors spent.

Da Boss wrote:It's that new thing marines got? Lets them voluntarily fail morale checks to fall back out of combat?

Oh right, yep I can find it now in my SM codex.

It makes me laugh reading the basic rules description of how when a fight begins all the pals of the engaged model rush in to help. Not if they have any sense if they are Tau!

Railguns wrote:I would like to see something along the lines of Pulse Rifles being assault 2 instead of rapid fire. Simple, but helps when your 120 point squad of guys that are only good at shooting are going to kill what, 4 or 5 orks over the 2 turns it takes to get caught in CC? 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 saved by 4+ cover. Great, you killed about 24-30 points of Orks per 120 points of firewarriors spent.

Assault 2 with range 30 would be too good.

How? It isn't like Firewarriors will win a shootout with anything but special and heavy-less guard squads. All MEQs will simply out attrition them. Cheap stuff like gaunts and orks can easily get cover saves against their shooting as good as their own armor save. They literally don't outshoot anything but stuff that wasn't meant to shoot.

The Crisis suits are supposed to supply the support fire that helps FW engage shooty enemies.

With their overall low Initiative scores, wouldn't most of the Tau just get sweeping advanced when using Combat Tactics?

Tau don't get combat tactics, thats a Space Marine thing.

@Killkrazy:Yeah, Crisis suits are there to kill the hard targets that Firewarriors either have too much trouble killing or simply can't kill. Like Terminators that deep struck next to a Tau gunline with heavy flamers, or a devastator squad wiping firewarriors off of the board with 4x heavy bolters, or whatever else crazy thing with better than suck armor or too many models for them to kill that is wiping the firewarriors. But the firewarriors themselves are only good at one thing, shooting. I am fine with that and actually I prefer the idea that they take things down, HARD, at ranged combat to compensate for no hth. But they aren't particularly good at that anymore either. Ubiquitous 5e edition cover saves ruin them against the light infantry they used to murder like Orks, Gaunts and Guard.

I agree with you on that.

No duh - I know Tau don't have Combat Tactics. I was pointing out why I thought that giving them Combat Tactics was not a good suggestion.

Well with the results of the last GT in the united states. Look like we need to go back to the drawing board. Seems we still are not competitive.


Does anyone know which type of Tau army the players used?

i don't think the tau need any rules changes because pre 5th the one biggest tau player used alot of bs with the skimmer thing on his turn he would say that his hammer head was skimming and so was up about 15 inchs in the air then on the other players turn he would say its landed becuase he bought landing gear so he couldnt be shoot at. nobody likes to play him unless they go super anti tau just to rub his face in the dirt.

everyone i know hates tau with i firery passion that hell could not beat.

i am not saying tau are bad but he just broke there rules alot and on a lot of games he had four heavys we final noticed and his excuse was that army builder didn't stop him from doing it

I would say the trick for the Tau is needing to improve the shooting ability of their basic firewarriors (as their tanks and suits kill things just fine) without resorting to increasing their number (i.e. decreasing their points).

I would think slightly improved rules for marker lights (mostly to simplify their use, needing marker light counters for units hit by them is pointlessly time consuming), something along the lines of any unit hit by markerlights reduces its cover save by one and anyone shooting at it has their BS increased by one. This, coupled with slightly easier access to marker lights army wide, would increase the untilty of their shooting units without increasing their power too much in other areas.

Secondly they need a better option for responding to deepstriking and outflanking units, perhaps the ability to equip their suits/tanks with something along the lines of the jammer on the Scout Speeder transport from the new marine codex.

As to complaints about vehicle based drones giving away kill points, I figure that so long as a unit can contest (not claim) an obejective (i.e. everything) it also has to be worth a kill point as thats part of the mission balance. Now if drones have their ability to contest objectives stripped then having them not count for KP would be fine by me.

Jack

The problem with the gun drones being worth a kill point wouldn't be that bad if the devilfish would have the same way of picking their secondary weapon. As it is now, Tau players pay a certain amount of points for a standard Devilfish, including the drones, and than need to pay 20 points extra to drop the extra kill point for the smart missile systems, effectively making the SMS cost 40 points on a Devilfish. The way the secondary weapons are selected for the Hammerhead is way better and more logical.

About increasing the shooting abilities of the fire warriors, I'd suggest assault 2 Pulse Carbines, possibly making the upgrade from Pulse Rifle to Pulse Carbine cost 1 point for every fire warrior. This would bring them more in line with Dire Avengers. Heck, even orks have assault 2 range 18" weapons on their basic troops.

I do not agree with Jackmojo saying suits are just fine. Sure they kill things just fine, the problem is they get killed so fast. Our suits relied on JSJ to survive. JSJ has become less usefull with the introduction of TLoS. A decrease in points cost is needed for the suits.

How to tau handle a running ork horde these days?
Do you have to be mechanised or is there some sort of clever tricks you can pull to make it hurt less?

I steamrolled our tau player (who is pretty good) in our only game of orks vs. tau so far, albiet with heavy causulties from his clever redeployment of fire warriors at exactly the right time.

Not really, Horde armies with cover saves just steam rolls tau. Tau bases there ability to shoot and move. With horde armies and +4 cover saves. You can't shoot them fast enough. They can not win in hand to hand. The speed of armies now and the ability to flank or infiltrate with the cover saves makes tau unplayable.

An 18" range gun would be a non-upgrade. Firewarriors need to kill at range, fast, or they are toast. Even if it's an effective 24" after moving, you end your turn within 18" inches of an enemy. Thats far too close for me, especially with jump pack troops, leaping Tyranids, and truck borne orks. Even WAAGHing Orks can catch you if they roll well enough. If they don't you'd get a second turn of shooting...so lets see.

4 shots per firewarrior per game. 12 Firewarrios per squad. Against Orks, 48 Shots , 24 hits, 16 wounds, 8 saved by 4+cover. 48 points of Orks killed per 120 points spent on Firewarriors before they get smashed in HtH. It doesn't get any better when you factor in power armored enemies or units that bring their own transports. I don't think Firewarriors really need a boost against vehicles. They need a boost in firepower so that they can overcome the cover silliness that 5th edition allows. Outflanking, scouting et. al make it even worse.

Airmaniac wrote:I do not agree with Jackmojo saying suits are just fine. Sure they kill things just fine, the problem is they get killed so fast. Our suits relied on JSJ to survive. JSJ has become less usefull with the introduction of TLoS. A decrease in points cost is needed for the suits.

This is dependant on the type of terrain modeling you have done, both my collection and the game store I occasionally play at have plenty of LOS blocking terrain (big hills, large ruins/buildings), and as such JSJ keeps the suits out of return fire well enough (asssuming the enemy is primarily in one direction, which given outflanking is not nearly so frequent).

Just like everything else, model collections (including terrain) can need to change when a new edition of the rules comes out.

Jack

A lot of good ideas for the tau so far. So now I'd like to add my wish list some of which has already been mentioned(sorry for any repitition)............................................................
First) Bear with me for a sec when I say IMHO Tau tanks are under gunned for the price.The new defensive weapon rule hurt an army that doesn't really have any thing underS5. Give the Tanks flamers or increase the current ROF. The Railgun while incredible ain't what it used to be(50pts for a Heavy 1 no Blast unless sub-munition S6 ap4) drop the points by 10 and twinlink it at least. Maybe improve the railgun blast profile or make the ion cannon go from heavy3 to heavy 2 blast? Devilfish burst cannon? Why put an assault gun on on a transport (range 18 S5 AP5 Assault 3) that doesn't carry assault troops? Maybe make the gun a long barreled burst cannon(range 36 S6AP4 Heavy3) instead of dropping the price. Yes the diruption pod does need to be at least 10 points. Yes, the decoy launcher needs to work on all immobilized not just glancing.(breath)

Second) Vehicles Pirahnas .......Tank Hunters USR and drop the price or give them fusion cannons(multi-melta). Maybe A shield gen option that makes them no longer open topped, it would make more sense than the eldar walker shield rule IMHO. Getting The tetras would be nice or some type of jet bike.

Third) Vespids are fine except they are named stingwings, give them a poison attack and emps at 18 pts. they work pretty good now as long as you don't jump to early. Would like for them to deep strike though. Too much??????(breath)

Fourth)Gun drones possibly as a troop choice and definetly give them a flamer option. Would make flamers on tanks easier.


Fifth) Kroot, Yes, fix the Kroot special rules and get rid of the terrain requirement. Also, Natural armour 5 but make their leadership purely point based. Kroot still work pretty well if you use large numbers with hounds. I, agree that they need some type of grenade that would give them some minor anti-tank and assault in cover without penalty, supposed to be really deadly in cover according to the fluff). Not asking for assault rifle IMHO would make them to good........or would it?.........
(breath)

Sixth) Crisis suits, pretty darn good, just make the shield gen intergral for the same price to make up for decreased effectivesess of shooting(cover saves). Give them equip to take advantage of relentless rule, integral marker lights & heavy guns that have greater range(make them expensive we're used to paying for it). Cyclic ion, they couldn't get the rule written right for the codex. How about this, Range 18-(24?) S4 AP4 Assault 4 Rending? Airburst frag? Give it range 24 S5 AP4 Large blast. Command Node Leadership within 12".

Seventh)Fire warriors. Drop the no organic fire support fluff. FW are in it for life following a lifelong path of improvement. A seargent(Shas'ui) is getting ready for crisis suit. Take a stealth torso(no jump pack) and let him choose from battle suit guns. I agree carbines need either higher ROF or special rule for the grenades, (you guys are geniuses). As far as DP in front lines, Like the skyray getting to shoot at them makes sense. Improve the Photon grenade.

Eighth)Seeker missles, keep price same but AP1??????HOW ABOUT NO COVER SAVES!!!!!!

Ninth) Yes, streamline markerlight rules. Did I mention you guys are geniuses.(breathe)

Tenth) BRING BACK AUN 'SHI. Make Ethereals some kind of useful, Initiative 5 Rending attacks Invulnerable 3+? Why do they even have a BS (give them a ranged effect)? _OR_ Tweek the inspiring presence rule. Kill an ethereal The Tau Become truly scary Initiative +2 stregth +1 bezerk fury or furious assault, stubborn, preffered enemy. Crisis suit get to shift power from guns where HTH attacks are power weapons.

Eleventh) Give the sniper drones the sniper rule. Could be usefull when facing a C'tan and make them worth the points.

And Finally Twelveth)Purely a pipe dream. A new race called the barghessi. Trading for the technology to fight the tyranids, incredible HTH butUberexpensive. 50 - 100 pts per model expensive. Right now BT, SM, &Necrons can stand at 24" and if just straight trade volleys of gunfire will out shoot the "shootiest" army. The thought on my wish list is to make the Tau current & streamlined for the same price not really to make them cheaper. The Shootiest army should then be the shootiest and if any major improvements in HTH They should COST.(whew)(gasp)(breath)

Dude, take a breath sometime...

Break that mess into paragraphs!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Dude, take a breath sometime...

Break that mess into paragraphs!

Sorry not a secretary or english teach. Will try to work on it...........................................................................................................


There is that better?

Stop trying to shoehorn a race of non combatants into a game of brutal hand to hand melees.

That's what needs to change.

Yet these shoe-horned non-combatants are still competitive in a galaxy of brutal HTH combat. Makes one wonder about the supposed Supremacy of the warrior doctrines of these unenlightened races.

Here is my .02 US.

How does the shootiest army - shoot like a bunch of grots? I mean honestly I have to take Target Arrays to get my suits to hit something consistantly - dont get me started about the new cover save rules....

Simply increast the BS of all tau - not kroot & vespid to a 4 leave everything else the same. I hate shooting at the same BS as a 3 point grot. I also like the photon grenades for free idea.

I agree kroot need improvements - grenades, actual save worth taking not reliant on a shapper.

Sniper teams - give them snipers already...otherwise call them rail rifle teams also giving the snipers rule might revitalize the option for pathfinders.

Markerlights - make them all networked so they are attractive to take w/fire warrior sergents.

Vehicles - i'm fine with the disruption pods points upgrade - but then give us something in return - seeker missles 5 pts or ap 1 seems fair to me.

Etherials (sp? dont have codex on me) - give them more of a role or a reason for opponent armies not to kill them.

Finally instead of creating a new group of aliens bring back the human converts/merks/abandond imperial fools - I thought it was a cool idea but never found the rules for them. Also for fluff - i like the idea of the join us or die idea - maybe boldness left over from 3rd expansion.

Casper your the dude. Forgot about basic BS increase. Spent to long hearing the game balance excuse in 4th ed

focusedfire wrote:Casper your the dude. Forgot about basic BS increase. Spent to long hearing the game balance excuse in 4th ed

hugh...you must be thinking of someone else...that was my first post.

Ok mabe not on the FW but still...be nice to actually put some other wargear on my crisis suits besides target arrays - my pathfinders are dead turn 1 alyways...via bad luck, poor strategy but mostly my friends hate them.

If giving them 1 point in BS would cause a points increase ide think it would only be 2 point tops - thats all you have to pay for the etherials body guard....but who would ever have one of those?

Casper, dude' take the compliment. "I" spent to much time listening to GW talk about game balance. So much so that I didn't even think about basic BS increase in my dream wish list for the next codex.
We're not talking about a lot of pts increase on these ideas because 5th ed reduced individual unit effecticveness. Also, using the new SM codex as a template. Points for the same thing should drop, or stay the same with tweaks to make them more suitable to 5th ed.

focusedfire wrote:There is that better?

TYVVM, it's much easier to read.

1. The Defensive Weapon change hurts non-Tau more by removing most of the S10 AP1 (might as well be against Tau T3 Sv4+) anti-infantry fire, so you should want to keep that in place, rather than giving people more free shots at your dudes. But yeah, your Grav-tanks are priced for 4E, just like nearly everybody else. Suck it up until the next update, which shouldn't be too far off.

2. I agree with Tau getting Jetbikes in the next edition. I'd support a T4(5) Sv2+ Jetbike as kind of a mobile tough unit - something the Tau should get.

3. Vespids are a good start, but the Tau should have more Xenos added to the mix - Rending S6 T5 A4+ Donorian Clawed Fiends; Hrud Snipers; and more.

4. Flamer Drones would be pretty good, and I could see them as upgrades to the existing Tau infantry. Basically, make the Gun Drones the Special weapons slots on the standard Tau Warrior units. That would force some interesting tactics.

5. Kroot are very close to being right as decently fighty Troops. If they were S4 A2 base, and counted the Rifle as +1A, then that would be about perfect. Maybe steal more of the options from the Kroot Merc list.

6. Crisis are good, basicly super Space Marines with JPs for the Elite slots. I don't know that they really need changing.

7. As above, Fire Warriors should be able to upgrade the Gun Drones to carry Special Weapons, or at least improved Basic Weapons.

8. How about an alternative fire mode, similar to how Imperials toggle between Frag and Krak?

9. Yeah, Markerlights need to be totally redone.

10. No real opinion on Ethereals.

11. Yes, Sniper Drones should be Sniper.

12. Barghessi are effectively similar in concept to Donorian Clawed Fiends, but 50+ pts is a ton of points. For that you need a Fleet Monstrous Creature. Seems like overkill and out of place to me.

thanks John,

2)I toyed with the idea ofdoing a jetbike conversion out of a pirahna but then saw the tetra and figured that was the direction GW was going to take.

8)Like the aternative fire mode in concept but not sure with the limited ammo. Would add flexibility.
How about alternative fire, seekers have DP intercept capability, and drop the no cover save idea.(really liked that idea, wasted way to many points on kills that just fade away).

12) Currently pay 50 pts for a one shot a round gun and the overall army boost from one little squad would make it worthwhile.
But, honestly, I like your idea better( 3) donorian clawed fiend.) I just choose Bhargessi due to there proximity to Tau space and the tau's limited warp capability. Warp travel is easy to fix(they reverse engineer necron tech)

focusedfire wrote:Casper, dude' take the compliment. "I" spent to much time listening to GW talk about game balance. So much so that I didn't even think about basic BS increase in my dream wish list for the next codex.
We're not talking about a lot of pts increase on these ideas because 5th ed reduced individual unit effecticveness. Also, using the new SM codex as a template. Points for the same thing should drop, or stay the same with tweaks to make them more suitable to 5th ed.

Im really sorry man, I took your compliment for a complaint...was rather tired when I read that....so sorry. I continued to think of how to justify it even if it seems like a fat chance....If they redo markerlights and gave us the increase in BS then remove the ability to add to the BS....keep everthing else or mabe add more. However if they changed all the markerlights to networked, droped their points a bit (to make them more attrative to attach to the FW). Also makeing the drones relentless so they would be more useful would be nice. Therefore getting rid of the need in BS increase.

Once again focusedfire, sorry for misreading you.

No prob Casper. The drones I believe already are relentless due to their jetpacks.
Problem is they lose that ability when they join a different type of squad. Case in point, marker drones fire a "heavy" markerlight. If they are with crisis or stealth jumpsuits they can move and fire, but the second they join an infantry squad they lose that ability. I know it's silly.

I really think GW has a ton of potential here with extensive use of Xenos allies. Tau could bring back newly-allied Piscean Warriors, Fimir, Slaan, and Zoats from the Tau Empire and nobody would blink an eye.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I really think GW has a ton of potential here with extensive use of Xenos allies. Tau could bring back newly-allied Piscean Warriors, Fimir, Slaan, and Zoats from the Tau Empire and nobody would blink an eye.

Just think of the modeling possibilities Could make building Tau almost as much fun as Orks. Now if I could get a clear ruling on shield drones and wound allocation.(sorry if thats a little off-topic)

focusedfire wrote:

Just think of the modeling possibilities Could make building Tau almost as much fun as Orks. Now if I could get a clear ruling on shield drones and wound allocation.(sorry if thats a little off-topic)

I have wondered this myself...if anyone could let me know it would be great.

Not to continue with the jack...but can I third that?

What do yo guys think GW is going to push for the Tau. Personally, from looking at the recent packaging of sets, I see generic stealth commanders. Stealth commanders with plas or missles....hhhmmm that would be fun. Maybe improve the stealth ability to 2d6x2.

I personally think Tetras look really dumb, so I hope they wouldn't add those. In fact, I don't really like any of the Forge World models or conversion kits, including their weird battlesuits.

for the 10 points you pay for them, fire warriors need to be BS 4.... if not BS 4, then a drop in points would be nice...
if neither of those work.... then just make the fire warrior BS 4 and 12 points. you konw, what the etherial can get for a bodyguard (12 points is pushing it though)

the devilfish is crazy overpriced.

Distuption pods are underpriced.

for the love of Gork the SMS and Burst cannons need to be defensive guns.

and why cant fire warriors get a heavy weapon that can do some krumpin???
how about letting them get rail rifels at say + 10 points per... one out of every 6 fire warriors can carry one??
:EDIT mabey take away the pinning aspect of the gun?? for a few more points, you can buy special rounds for it that make it pinning... for a few more points you can buy it a target lock?????

i dont like the idea of tau getting a GOOD CC unit though... i mean come on, do you want them to be able to do everything just like the marines

I agree with you about the aliens...we dont really need more currently - fix the ones we have first....

Somehow still see pathfinders rail rifles returing much more than fire war's gettin them.

Otherwise i agree with everthing else...we probably are all dreaming about fw with bs 4...but i'de rather see that than a points drop. I just don't see the points drop as that benificial, Kroot are dirt cheep but dont last, fire warr's need to be around so we can hold objectives. And if CC is supposed to be our weakness then we should have some way of killing assulters before they get to us.

Casper wrote: we should have some way of killing assulters before they get to us.

i said it before, and ill say it again.

let the firewarriors get a heavy weapon or 2 that can do some krumpin.

Squad Leaders should remain at 1 attack and gain BS 4.

Imho, i doubt we will se fire warriors taking up a grenade launcher any time soon. I like the idea of having drones that carry the hvy wep - flamer, sniper, rail rifle (yes keep them both this fills a different role), mabe even other battle suit wepon systems. (As somebody previously mentioned)

Also another posibility would be to bring back the human auxileries (instead of new aliens) and allow them to take some better wepons - 1 or 2 per squad from a select list (Imp G or mabe Tau).

One problem with the human auxiliaries rules I saw was that these traitor guardsmen came in squads the same size as Fire Warrior squads, which is just too small for models with such wimpy stats.

Everyone agrees that disruption pods should cost more. Did anyone think this in the last edition? Because they were just as good then (only everyone took decoy launchers instead).

The way I saw the Human Auxilaries was similar to a small group of allies for recon.

Unlike Kroot, they get a markerlights. Fairly cheap markerlight. I'd say making Human Auxilaries into something like scouts who can out flank and light up targets from the rare would be cool.

How else would Tau use their allies in their tactica?

If human auxiliaries were available, where would they fit in the FOC, and should they be Scoring?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If human auxiliaries were available, where would they fit in the FOC, and should they be Scoring?

Probably troops. I don't see them being fast attack and definatly not eliets. I agree they would act like more hevily armed scouts (aren't kroot our scouts?) Squad size, points and gear im not so sure about (anyone have rules they could link?). Mabe put a cap like 0-1 on them or something bc no sane comander would have more allies than loyal fire warriors (who hopefully will be buffed).

As to scoring would you mean takeing objectives? If thats the case then yes, kroot can so why wouldn't they as troops?

I think they would be troops, but as Auxillia (a rule applying to all non-Tau) They do not use up actual troops slots. I think that may help.

what can humans naturally do better than tau?
CC

what else?
Well if they're space marines or assassins they can give the tau some superior tech, but guard/PDF? not a chance.

humans should have some kind of CC type of thing.

Actually, Casper, The kroot are our auxllary troops. Mostly, according to fluff, because we don't have endless hive wolrds. Our scouts are in need tweeking.

I liked the idea of another race because it fit the fluff. I would be perfectly happy with the simple mods I mentioned earlier to our existing allies. But if no new allies then how about a great Gnarlock?

As far as humans How about this WS3 BS3 S3 T3 A1 I3 Sv 4+ Weaponry; Pulse pistols, close combat weapons(to much to ask for chainswords OH!!! Honour blades), emp genades and maybe a flamer option. Inspired Defense Rule that allow them to bump their initiate by a point in certain conditions?

focusedfire wrote:Actually, Casper, The kroot are our auxllary troops. Mostly, according to fluff, because we don't have endless hive wolrds. Our scouts are in need tweeking.

I liked the idea of another race because it fit the fluff. I would be perfectly happy with the simple mods I mentioned earlier to our existing allies. But if no new allies then how about a great Gnarlock?

As far as humans How about this WS3 BS3 S3 T3 A1 I3 Sv 4+ Weaponry; Pulse pistols, close combat weapons(to much to ask for chainswords OH!!! Honour blades), emp genades and maybe a flamer option. Inspired Defense Rule that allow them to bump their initiate by a point in certain conditions?

Thanks, I don't know much of the fluff unless its in the dex. I like the humans as either another cheap cc unit that cant infiltrate (let kroot do that) or a unit that has the ability to get some templates or blast wepons. Something along that statline would be nice. But they should be less capable than FW. So guns mabe only st4? something like an imperial lasgun but with more punch?

Personally I think our lack of CC is what makes us different, and it takes better tatics when your army doesn't perform at all in 1/3 of the phases imho.

what do you mean the tau dont perform in the assault phase?? our suits jump around, a key part to tau tactics.

and the more i think about it the more i like the idea of heavy weapon drones in the fire warrior squad. 0-2 i think would be a good limmit per squad.

fw don't use heavy weapons, they go on battlesuits.
or drones I guess.

Not, yet, on the drones. Just speculating, was the first mod I thought of when I got my Tau army. Flamer drome is so simple that GW will plrobably never do it. Hope they do tho'.

Human Auxilia can function exactly like Imperial Guard platoons, heavy weapons and all. They aren't going to be assault troops. Kroot are superior and people don't use them for assault to start with. Let Human Auxilia be the squads that get heavy support weapons. They can act as the solid battle line that anchors the more mobile Tau units. Let them do as they do best, as the Tau fluff would have it. Maybe make Pulse Rifles an "x members of the squad can replace their lasguns with pulse rifles for y points" option, along with grenade launchers, missile launcers, heavy bolters and autocannons. Maybe add an option to either upgrade the squad with cameleoline and infiltrate/or carapace armor for 25 points per squad.

Problem is that the write up that I have for human auxilia is that they don't get to take the heavy weapons. (fluffwise)It's treated like part of proper integration in the Tau empire is that they give up the evil imperial tactica and adopt Fire caste doctrine. I do like your idea, its just that give a human carapace+few pulse rifles and they are superior to the basic tau statwise.

Maybe make use of the prefered enemy status. The auxilia will be engagement priority over tau units, make them distraction/speed bump.

The problem is that what makes Human troopers worth using is their heavy weapon upgrades. Human auxilia do not have these and thus have no niche to fill. The Tau fluff states that they still retain the industrial capacity to make standard pattern weaponry for themselves, hence the lasguns they wield. Just extend that to heavy weapons and they suddenly have their reason to exist back. Tau firewarriors retain their basic firepower and durability advantage, as well as their mobility advantage in Devilfish. The Guardsmen can form an actual battle line that that Devilfish, Crisis Suits and Hammerheads can maneuver around as they fight the enemy. They aren't particularly expected to follow fire caste doctrine, just what the empire orders them to do. Don't make them "fire magnets", as Tau do not acknowledge attrition tactics. Give them a real purpose to serve, or don't have them at all.

Not really disagreeing with you. At present they are pretty much just a cruriosity. Something cool to field because you took the time to convert them(I know, I said that like there is a problem with modeling for coolness. You guys can shoot me later). Its just, what role would they fill?

Also, as of this rule book, they would be able to use a transport as can the kroot as long as squad size is right. Can't start off loaded but you can load up after start of game.

I know, I ask for too much in their abilities, just throwing out various ideas to pick and choose from.

I think it would at least be an interesting option. You can get Witchhunter and Daemonhunter allies with some armies, so Tau armies with Kroot and Human Auxilia units could work in a similar manner. Purist Fire Caste? Sure, you can do it. Third Sphere Border Word force? Use a bunch of non-Tau auxillia. Or anything in between. It would be fun and characterful

While we are at it, I noticed that Farsight has been pretty much left out up till now.

Maybe he should get the human auxilia(Storm strooper types) fits with where his enclave is.

Also, bring his armies CC back. They have increasingly boned them in that area since the tau came out.

The army runs on limited supplies is(according to fluff rumor) working as mercenaries, has forsaken pure fire caste doctrine and trains extensively in HtH. Yet they are no better than regular Fire warriors? Give them an across the board initiative and ws bump.

Maybe make them a combination of IG and Tau ,weaponry wise,and then adjust the pts or restrict access to tech accordingly.

What changes to the Farsight enclaves need to be made? your opinions pls.....

The old WS and I boosts don't exist anymore,at least for normal troops, because a WS and I 3 firewarrior is just a stormtrooper with a pulse rifle. The upgrade was a meaningless waste of points that did nothing unless it applied to crisis suits, which lacked CC equipment to take advantage of it. O'Shovah doesn't use Kroot much either, he doesn't trust anyone, even most Tau, so He probably would not trust Auxilia units. He would probably re-fit Crisis suits with powerfists and other such combat modifications looted from enemies on the fringes of the Empire

O'Shovah i agree wouldn't seem like the most adaptive of generals. I see him as one of the most elietist tau generals. The Ork new codex talks about "The War of Dakka". So potentailly suits with more power wepons/cc options would seem appropriate also mabe some more wepon skill for them. Not sure points wise for cost but it would definatly be a Farsight onclave only option. This would more than compensate for their lack of non fw and suits options. Either that some continuation of his hatred of orks (mabe for the entire army)?

It's debatable due to his focus on winning and having to be adaptable with limited resources.

I can see the kroots were yanked because of treaty/agreement with empire.

Still would love to see crisis with power fist. Would make having sucky initiative worthwhile.

They do get the continuation of hatred, It just got nerfed with the new preffered enemy.

A new idea. Make the Gun drones on the devil fish a part of the squad that takes the transport. Thereby eliminating the KP. Makes sense because the drones are already passengers.

Tau can't win in 5th? Have some troubles with winning? They have pooor troops? WTH with you people, isn't main Tau army core (Crisis\Stealth\Broadside) + HH and sniper drones already too way good? Do you wanna play game or just throw dices? Maybe you ask GW in 5ed Tau codex about red button - at any time, say you pushed button. You won this battle in massacre?

Winning, I do pretty good. Just until new codex, playstyle and unit choice has been severly limited. Not every player wants to play Mech all the time.

And when other armies are being strengthened while your army was weakened by new ruleset it is normal to think of what would be nice.

I've got 1 gripe with a lot of the suggestions here.

Against a proper Tau force, there are no cover saves.

Reducing cover saves should be the primary function of markerlights in the current edition. Start using those marker drones, start giving your team leaders lights and HW target locks, and light em up. Then see how well weaving together serves them.

RaGe-at-Random wrote:I've got 1 gripe with a lot of the suggestions here.

Against a proper Tau force, there are no cover saves.

Reducing cover saves should be the primary function of markerlights in the current edition. Start using those marker drones, start giving your team leaders lights and HW target locks, and light em up. Then see how well weaving together serves them.

Yes, true but I center my army around pinning, so I need those marker lights to lower moral. Since Tau are never going to be any good at sweeping advance, you need to break moral through shooting. And since marker light hits cannot benefit from other marker light hits, most of the time (excepting sniper drone squads and models with targeting arrays) they only hit on a 4+. For ten points a light (other then pathfinders which are a bargain and marker drones which are 30 pts for some reason) they just aren't very reliable. Marker lights are great, they're just over-priced.

In their current state our team leaders if you equip them w/ bonding knife, marker light and target lock they = 30ish points (on vacation no dex). So haveing to pick them out seperatly is a big deal in 5th. Also as already stated drones are too expensive rather have 2 sheild drones than 1 marker drone.

Networked marker were designed for jet-pack squads and broadsides. Pricing is to steep to use in any game excep apoc. Just my opinion.

So I started a thread on dakka discussions about how the new HQ's are really messing with FOC and why they are doing it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/225678.page

So what do you think Tau should get? I really don't see us in a mold where we would get FOC chagnes. I also don't see them killing off our named characters either.

However I could see us getting a new named dude as a successor to the space pope - but thats it. I wouldn't mind Shadowsun getting different guns either but thats just me.

Tau are currently the only army where their special characters, in general, are not geared for the offensive. Tau are a ranged army, why don't Tau leaders have better ranged capabilities than the regular commanders? Yes Farsight is OK but he doesn't give a global offensive increase in any effective way other than free bonding knives. Its not like FWs become fearless(that'd be nice) and preffered enemy CC against orks only on initiative 2 models is someones idea of a bad joke.

I'm revising my wish list to include special characters and how I think the army should work. Please note that unless otherwise noted I'm fine with the points increasing to cover any extra abilities or increase in effectiveness.

Special Characters:
Farsight- Same profile but improved effect on army. So much so he gets his own list or codex. Army has across board improved intiative and WS bump. Also, access to bayonets and CC weapons and furious Assault against orks. Either his army gets Merc wargear or he gets unrestricted Tau equipment list at increased cost to represent the difficulty in getting equipement. Army still gets bonding knives free.(I know, this is to much) Fluff about Aun Shi finding and joining Farsight. Aun shi becomes only ethereal able to be used in Farsight army but loses special character and instead becomes an available upgrade character to a single FW squad.

ShadowSun-Stealth armour visibility is reduced to 2d6x2 for all steath suits in her army. She still gets the Command Link and Shield Drone retinue. She gets to take up to an additional 4 gun, or 2 marker, or 2 sniper drones in her retinue. Either there always has to be an ethereal(Ethereals become upgrade characters for troops in the next codex?Ethereal=Commisar) in her army or there are shas'el and shas 'o stealthsuit commanders available(You tell me which you like).Or both?

Aun Va-Gets to call in Airstrikes ala DOW. Make it a S9 AP3 Ordinance available a limited number(what 2 or 3) of times a game. With etherals as an upgrade character Aun 'Va takes the current codex Ethereal bodyguard of improved FWs. Leave everything else the same.

Regular Army and Characters:
Shas 'el and Shas'o xv-8 commanders-Get markerlight option. Fix Command Node to where it serves a purpose(leadership to everything within 12" except kroot). Fix Cyclic Ion Cannon(make it truly rending),Make Positional Relay worth taking get rid of 2+single unit and instead allow rerolls for all reserves(even successful ones).

Ethereals-Become buyable character for Tau FW squads.(what special rules should he have?)Makes the squad and only that squad stubborn or fealess but as soon as he dies they take that morale test. Just an idea.

Crisis Suits- Make the shield generator not take up a hard point on the suits. Allow for vectored thrusters on"squads" instead of "monats". Access to Rail Rifles?

Stealthsuits-Always get +1 bonus to coversaves. Access to railrifles or sniper drones.

Fire Warriors-Access to special weapon drones and BS4 (Thanks Casper)enough said.

Carbines- Get rid of useless pinning rule and have it cut movement in half(No leadership test) if squad suffers a wound.

Photon Grenades-Lose "charge in" attack and counts as assaulting into difficult terrain.

Drones- Make them troops and give them Flamers(2 per squad max). Make drones fearless. No Heavy weapon drones,(Fluff excuse for limitation) they need a controller because no room for sophisticated AI. Marker Drones 20 pts.
Clarify that shield drones are extra invulnerable wounds and convey their invulnerable save onto the unit they are with. Whole unit gets the invulnerable in ranged attacks and rolls the saves at same time, remove all failed at same time starting with drones. If the unit started a saving roll with a shield drone then all get the save even if the drone is destroyed. Subsequent firing in that turn there is no save if no Shield drone. Drones only convey save on model with controller in CC.(Is that clear or confusing)

Markerlights-No longer increase BS. No longer can impose leadership negatives. Cover save is reduced by number of markerlight hits expended for "all" units that shoot at squad in the same round. MarkerLights still fire Seeker missiles.

Seeker Missles- Either give them AP1 or give them a blast option(S4 AP4).

Kroot- Options from Merc list? Armor Save 5+. Can infiltrate with Kroot Ox. UpDate the Cover rules to apply to all cover. Give them a rudimentry explosive charge that can take out tanks. Make their guns assault 1 Range 18" or give them fleet.

Vespids-Give them poison attacks +4 for regular +2 Strain Leaders(no insta-death poisons)

Pirahnas- Buyable Shield Generator option that makes them no longer open topped. Drones on Squadron become troops when seperated from Pirahna. Only one Pirahna may replace its gun drones with flamer drones(This would make them about perfect, actually ).
Either give them multi-meltas, the scout rule, or the deepstrike rule. SMs get all of these with better weaponry for less than the current Pirahna.Yes front armour 11 open-topped vs front armor 10 closed topped. Thats why I said either.(Thats probably to much but I'd pay for one of those abilities)

Devil Fish-Bust cannon becomes Long-barrled Burst Cannon. Fix KP issue on drones by making them a part of the squad being transported. They embark and disembark at same time as unit Devilfish was bought with.

Broadsides-Make them relentless without having to buy upgrade that takes up hard point(I'll happily pay for the Stablizers if already included In profile).

Hammerheads-Make the Ion Cannon Heavy 2 blast for 30pts. Increase Disruption pods to 15-20pts. Decoy launchers good against all immobilized results. Fix inconsistent secondary weapon system pricing. Flamer or flamer drone options in secondary weapons. RailGuns, Fine just the way they are.

Sniper Drones-Move to fast attack? Put six drones with 2 controllers in a squad and make the controllers Stealsuits so the unit is jet packing(Or is that level of cheese reserved only for Eldar and SMs)



Let me know if you like or not and what points these changes would be worth to you.

I played tau only for a little bit (fell in love with orks) but one thing that always got me was how the crisis suits all had BS 3, and plasma rifles were rapid-fire. I have a few nicely converted models lying around and a small 1000pt army that I play with once and twice (the rest I sold), and I eagerly await when codex updates make them a real competitor again.


Crisis Suits: they are the cream of the crop Tau Warriors, the suits them self are pretty expensive points-wise, and due to the new LOS rules have become far more fragile. I believe they should be BS 4 (5 with targeting upgrade). That would go a long way in making sure they get their shots in before they get slaughtered. Right now, a squad of twenty of my boys is far more effective against MEQs then three plasma equipped crisis suits in both shooting and assault, and they cost less point to boot!

Another idea I thought cool would be to give their vehicles the ability to either:

1) Move, disembark a unit, and continue movement

or

2) give their vehicles something akin to JSJ

When I see devilfish they just look like they would zip in, quickly drop their warriors, then zip off to where else they were needed. I think it would help the tau with their "mechanized combat" flavor. Right now, my battlewagon boyz are far more mechanized then any tau army I see, and that's just wrong.

Also, devilfish might be cheaper, and maybe give vehicles an item which lets them ignore the rules of firing only 1 main weapon a turn (since str. 5 is so measley)

Drones could be troop choices.

Also, maybe make their pulse rifles have a rapid fire range of 15" or make the carbine assault 2.

I don't know how I would change kroot. While it would be nice for the tau to have some decent close combat, you don't want them too good or it would ruin the whole point of the army.

Vespids... I don't know they are the flash-gits of the Tau; they have guns that look nice but are crappy in use.

One thing that would be cool is to have human auxiliaries in the main codex. You got some guard in my tau! You got some tau in my guard!

Oh and fire warriors need to be a little cheaper and maybe have the option for different weapons. Maybe give them items and the ability to break away/ hurry away from combat.

Essential, make them even shooter! Right now, my orks have a lot more shooty goodness then the tau, and that just seems wrong.

I think it would be neat if Tau could get a walker unit of some sort. I imagine something like a Sentinel that could slow down enemy assault troops, which would be really handy. It's hard to think how it would fit stylistically, though - maybe a battlesuit so oversized it doesn't count as infantry anymore?

I repeat the points I made in the other thread on the same topic.

There are several things I want to say about Tau and first I will set out my stall so readers know where I am coming from.

I haven’t played Tau in 5e as my army has been locked in a warehouse for over a year. So what follows is theoryhammer. Also, my codex has been locked up too so my memory of some of the detailed rules is hazy; forgive me if I have misremembered something.

I am only going to speak about Tau. I recognise other armies such as IG also need a make-over, however, each army should be dealt with separately.

Historically, Tau have always been an effective army, though not 1st rank, if used with care and skill. They depend on mobility and a combined arms firepower approach, to compensate for lack of assault capability and lack of heavy weapons in the FW squads.

I don’t want to see this change because the attraction of Tau is the differences compared to other kinds of armies. Improvements should be made within the existing framework of the suits and vehicles carrying the heavy firepower, and very limited assault troops.

There is a fundamental problem in the rules caused by the proliferation of Ld 10 armies and the huge morale gap between them and Ld7-8 armies. IMO the whole morale system of the game needs revision. That can’t be done in one codex.

Looking at specifically Tau issues, they have three core problems in 5e.

1. FW have become even more vulnerable to assault because assault has been improved a lot. Their basic 4+ save means the new cover rules are not a great help to them. The Troops scoring rule means you need to take more of them, leaving fewer points for the more powerful units. Their pulse rifle firepower has been reduced by the proliferation of the 4+ cover save. Range 30 weapon isn’t as useful as before since armies can start closer together and move faster.

2. Crisis suits are now over-costed because the JSJ tactic they depended on is less effective due to the lack of solid, LoS blocking cover. Their mobility compared to other infantry has been reduced because other infantry’s mobility has been increased. Their basic save isn’t that good, considering what small units they are. This could be remedied by putting more solid cover items out for a game, however it can’t be relied on because it isn’t structured into the rules.

3. Tau vehicles, while benefitting from increased resistance to damage as have all vehicles, have reduced ability to move and fire. This damages the mobility approach to tactics. They have become more vulnerable to assault because assaulters always hit the rear armour, and because assaulters can now move as fast as they do. The KP rule means that drones have become a liability rather than an asset.

It’s not all bad. Kroot are great. (Though they always were.)

I don’t want to sound like I am moaning too much.

Possible solutions

Fire Warriors
Increase the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. This by itself would make it possible to manouevre effectively while still shooting, without requiring any other changes to points costs, or special rules. It is not such as huge change that it would make it impossible for assaulters to outmanoeuvre them.

Crisis Suits and Broadsides
Increase the unit size to 5 rather than 3, to allow more to be taken, and give them a free targetting array that doesn’t take up a slot. It would be nice also to make them a bit cheaper and faster-moving, but this may be over-egging the pudding. I remember the original Tau codex design notes, which said that originally Crisis suits could move 12 in both phases, and that made them too mobile.

Vehicles
Devilfish and Hammerheads should be given SMS to replace drones for a reduced points cost. They have become very expensive vehicles with all the necessary upgrades.

Stealth Suits seem fine and don’t need any changes.

Gundrones also seem fine. They would benefit from being able to include marker drones in the same unit, though doing this would reduce the need for Pathfinders and maybe lead to less varied armies.

Marker drones should be made cheaper, maybe 20 points instead of 30.

Sniper drones should probably be costed at 60 per unit rather than 80, to reflect the point that the whole unit dies if the leader is hit.

Pathfinders
I can’t think how to change them without overbalancing things. For example, making their Markerlights assault rather than heavy would be a big help, but probably too effective. Perhaps do that and increase the points cost for balance.

Vespids are rubbish and need a re-write. They are too expensive, too vulnerable and their guns are silly. A sensible revision of these factors would make them worth taking without them becoming overpowered. For example, 4+ save, gun range of 18, and points cost of 14.

Ethereals are too vulnerable. They should be given a built-in 3+ invulnerable save and give Morale 10 to all Tau units in LoS, and you should be allowed to take them as a squad which can be split up. For example, a unit of three as an HQ choice, which can be divided into three individuals and ride in a Fish for free, and be attached to FW squads. Making them an HQ slot helps balance things because it reduces the number of Suits you can take.

If Space Pope is kept as a special character, the stupid bodyguards should be lost and his chair should be given the same mobility as a Crisis suit, a free invulnerable save or some drones, all in one package. He should also have some decent special rules, maybe something about reducing enemy psychic powers, or a squad of Ethereals attached. The box set could easily be changed to suit.

I would like to see a couple more special characters. An elite Crisis leader would be a good one, and a tank commander similar to Sgt Chronus.

I expect a lot of these ideas will be criticised as over-powered, and some of them may be. It is just a post to open up debate by presenting some ideas.

@KK: I generally agree with your comments, which is why I watch the new Guard very carefully, as much of what they do for IG presages what they will do for Tau (and Eldar) in terms of how they will balance (shooty) GEQs in 5E.

Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

MythicalMothman wrote:Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Cheap
Decent firepower
Good cover save if put in woods
Large number of attacks on the charge

Make drones not counting as a kill point!

Make marker drones cheaper!

Some sort of war gear that works like a space marine locater beacon.

Kilkrazy wrote:

MythicalMothman wrote:Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Cheap
Decent firepower
Good cover save if put in woods
Large number of attacks on the charge

^Exactly!

I agree more with Kilkrazy than I do focusedfire. Rewriting rules is always a challenge involving attributes beyond just being balanced. Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

I don't see the Tau as ever having been a 'top-tier' army. It is an army that wins by being good in only 2 of the 3 phases of the game turn.

The main problems I see confronting Tau are: the changes to the 5th edition rules involving running, true line of sight (TLoS), cover saves, and morale results from close combat. To a lesser extent the kill point (KP) system hurts the Tau more than lists with strong, versatile troops selections.

Of course, there are other changes that need to be made. Stealth suits always being in cover isn't as helpful as it used to be with the changes in assault grenades, vehicle drones giving up KPs aren't great, stealth drones are even more overpriced with the changes in wound allocation and drone controller rules, Vespids are still more rare than a primarch, and Fire Warriors are best used to ride in transports where they aren't contributing to the army's raison d'etre.

Unlike Guard, who have a wide variety of weapons, squads, and LD modifiers and unlike Eldar who have a wide variety of tailored units, I see the Tau army as one that will need more vision and imagination than slight points tweaks or changes in universal special rules to make a competitive, and more importantly, a fun army to play against friends and strangers.

Edit: spelling

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

That's why I think a unit similar to Sentinels would be good. Sentinels aren't something that will kill enemy squads in melee, but their armor values are enough to significantly slow down a lot of squads they get in assault with. Even huge kroot squads are pretty easy to sweeping advance, so light walkers seem like a better speed bump than any other units we have.

Well Vespids just need to get killier. Models that size really needn't be any tougher than they are, but with one shot each they won't ever really dent anything beyond one MSU marine unit before being wiped out.

The thing is, walkers just aren't something Tau build. With all the jumping and anti-g tech they have, its an approach not really in their philosophy IMHO.

I will agree that rules-wise such a thing might find a place in the Tau army.

Some of these ideas are based on giving the Tau better melee capability through new equipment or allies.

I would prefer to improve the shooting and mobility. It is more Tauey. For instance, rapid fire range FW would be able to move around and shoot assaulting units with a good chance of not being counter-charged, depending on how clever the two players were. This would add to the challenge for the enemy army as well.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

I disagree, given that Tau start with Kroot as Troops, Tau are a lot "fightier" than Guard.

Tau could gain:
- slightly better Kroot
- Assault Suits as Elite
- Monstrous Creature Ally as Heavy

And it wouldn't break the Tau army, as long as those options aren't mandatory. Most Tau players aren't going to take Assault Suits over Crisis Suits, nor Monsters of Railheads. Tau aren't going to suddenly bulk up on more Kroot, either.

But you might see the occasional Tau-led assault force for variety, simply because it would be possible. Sort of.

____

Kilkrazy wrote:Some of these ideas are based on giving the Tau better melee capability through new equipment or allies.

Exactly, and nothing wrong with that.

Have to disagree JohnHwang.

Any unit that doesn't have saves and poor LD will get decimated in HTH. Saying Kroot are "fightier" than Guard is comparing apples to crabapples. I've beaten storm troopers in HTH with Broadsides, but I wouldn't say that makes broadsides "fightier".

Taking assault suits would be better than crisis as elites simply because I can continue to buy crisis in the HQ slots. A unit with S5, 2A and the toughness/save they have are better than kroot unless I'm trying to recreate a scene from Zulu.

Have to agree with Kilkrazy, it is the movement, LD, and shooty units that need to be rethought, not adding new HTH units or beefing up Kroot.

And we return to O'Shovah Combat suits with looted powerfists and lightningclaws. I think we're on to something.

get rid of the tau and make it the kroot codex

Personally I'd like to see a separate Farsight enclave codex. Essentially more expensive units which are better at melee and a few special units unique to the codex. Assault battle suits would be nice.

October 16. That's when this thread was started.

Ok, I'm really fixated with this idea of light walker units. If you don't think walkers would fit into the Tau technology style, why not have them be alien ally units, like kroot or vespid walkers, or some new race entirely? Heck, why not have human auxiliary walkers - actual Sentinels!

What purpose would they serve? I can't imagine walkers doing anything that the Crisis suits don't do better.

Its the old give the Tau a HTH monster. Thats the purpose. IMHO, The Tau empire will gain access to greater Gnarlocks before they get walkers.

No no no, not a HTH "monster." Not walkers like Dreadnoughts that rip squads apart, walkers like Sentinels that don't really kill anything but are also hard for infantry to kill. Their 10 or 11 armor values just make them good for tar pitting - they could slow enemy assault squads substantially so other units could keep shooting things instead of being assaulted.

Rather than light walkers, assault suits would be preferable, IMO.

Assault suits with 2+ armor saves, powerfists or lightning claws, and either built-in flamers or fusion blasters. With bulky-up armored versions of the forgeworld suits.

I'd suggest Assault suit with PFs, Sv3+, Jetpacks, and HnR.

Performance-wise, PFs and Lightning Claws are very similar, but PFs have generally better utility. Plus, Tau are slow, so they can't get much benefit from Claws. I could see an Eldar Assault Aspect armed with Claws though, as they're I5+...

Anyhow, with PFs as the basic weapon, Tau can't be Sv2+, because then they're Terminator copies. So Sv3+, which allows them to keep the Jetpacks for JSJ mobility to get into combat. Also, it keeps them as HQ / Elites (good) rather than competing for Heavy (bad).

Then, give them Hit and Run so they can get out when needed to allow for synergy with a largely shooty army - Tau lock in, at the end of the enemy turn, they H&R out, Tau shoot on their turn, and then Jump back in with the Charge bonus.

Anything that enhances Tau abilities at offensive H2H dilutes the quality and interest of the army, IMO.

I wouldn't go so far as "anything", but rather focus on an things that provide an excess of HtH ability. I don't think PF suits would be excessive in the least, given that they merely accentuate the slowness of the Tau in HtH - the only difference is that survivors hit back harder.

Heck, you could even go to the next step of Heavy "turtle" Sv2+ suits with integral Sv4++ power shields, and then arm them with pistols & CCWs.

Two styles of combat suits would be interesting. Turtlesuits with powerfists and Jumpy suits with stormshields and fusion charges(so melta effect against vehicles s5-6 on charge power weapons). Or maybe, for extra coolness make the turtlesuits have eviscerators. Seems to me that O'Shovah wouldn't have any qualms about adopting enemy weaponry functions if he already decided that close combat is necessary.

Do people actually think Sentinels and War Walkers are any good at killing things? I just see them as effective tar pits, which makes them an interesting way to avoid assaults rather than win them. And avoiding assaults is something I think Tau should be better at.

Avoiding assault these days is incredibly difficult. Short of making Tau ludicrously destructive in the shooting phase or giving everything a jump-pack it may be an impossible goal.

But I think some cheap light walkers would be a good way to do it. They get stuck in with something scary...and then just kind of stay stuck for a while, because they suck but are hard for infantry to take out in melee. Meanwhile non-sucky units shoot things up since they're not being assaulted.

OK, gonna take another stab at this. typed it up 3 days ago and dakka update ate the post.

What I posted earlier was just a dream or wish list. I've thought about this some and narrowed down to what is either practical or rumors of improvements that I like. I started another thread on this a little while back to try and focus down a little from an overall wish list to what would make sense. What would really make a difference without changing the army as much as updating and I'll try to hit the high points and explain my reasoning for each.

First) The Tau aren't bad off. They just aren't designed for 5th ed. The reason I suggested the changes to the special characters is because this seems to be the way GW is moving. Whether or not this is herohammer, I don't know or really care. I can live with it if it means more variety of army builds and playstyle. So 3-4 big heros with 3-4 army philosiphies. Aun'va is for the semi-static gun-line with some ordinance back-up, Shadowsun for highly mobile scouting and fast hitting armies, Farsight for elite hard hitting strike forces with some HtH. Mind you these are just ideas as to how GW might tweek these heros.

Second) As I state in the drones as troops thread. The Tau only need a little tweeking to bring them up to 5th ed. I believe that the largest part of that tweek will come in the form of army restructuring with the addition of some tech advancements. To me, the simplest way to accomplish this is in the drones. Make the drones count as troops with limited special weapon access. The Tau already suffer all of the penalties of them as troops without any of the benefits. The reasons I support this is as follows.

A) With the drones as troops you add mobility to the army. You could limit it to 1 squad of drones for every squad of troops selected as troops.

B) The drones on the Devilfish could easily be ruled as part of the squad that purchases the 'fish. As long as the drones load and unload at the same time there is no problem. This would fix the KP issue and wouldn't make the vehicle opened topped because of the designed firing recesses.

C) The special weapons would be flamers, burst cannons, and possibly fusion guns for an additional 6-10 pts each. The squads would be able to upgrade 2 models but only with identical weapons. This wouldn't make them or the army any more assault oriented, just more flexible. This would also allow for fire warriors to get some much needed support without violating current Fire caste doctrine and re-enforce the roll of the drones as little helpers. Just write up that the squad is unable to take the heavier weapon systems because the space needed for the targeting arrays and such take up the space for the independent A.I.. That way the railrifle drones and whatever other weapons systems deemed too powerful would only go to a model with a drone controller.

D) The drone squadrons on the Pirahnas would make the vehicles worth taking. It would make for a limited highly mobile objective taking unit without being overpowered because of the squadron rules. Immobilized=destroyed means drones disembark when the first pirahna bites it. The lead pirahna can carry the optional Special weapon drones.

E) This opens up room in Fast attack to move in one of the forgeworld Tetra or the droneless pirahna variants.

Third) Continuing with the restructuring I think that the Sniper Drone teams in their current incarnation need to go away and they can take the rail rifle pathfinders with them into the realm of restructuring. What would re-emerge would be something actually useful.

1) The sniper drones would be joined with stealth suit shas'vre armed with HW drone controllers, networked markers, and choice of burst cannon or fusion guns. The squad would not be allowed to take any other drones but would be able to take (one additional piece of wargear each?) and a bonding knife. Each suit can take only 2 sniper drones as per normal drone controller rules with 6-12 in a squad counting drones(4 suits+8 Drones=12). There would be only one such squad per army and would occupy a heavy support slot. Don't know if they would keep the DeepStrike/Infiltrate but I think they should. This would make for an extremely mobile(Drones would benefit from the jetpack relentless rule) hard to kill unit that was worth its points.

2) The rail rifle pathfinders would be teamed up with the old sniper drone controllers. The networked marker controllers would also project a cohesive shield that confer invulnerables onto the whole squad. There would be one generator for every three rail rifles. This squad I was thinking would make a much better honour guard for the ethereal. This would make the Etheral have an offensive purpose.

Fourth) Fix and clarify wargear entries. From the typo's to the outdated, the inconsistent vehicle pricing to the under/overcosted. I don't really need to go any farther, because its been agreed that disruption pods are to cheap and that decoy launchers are now useless just to name a few. Also, compensate for Stealthsuits in cover while assaulted being nerfed by going back to always counting as being in cover thus getting the 4+ coversaves.


Fifth) The Ion Cannon goes up in price and gains rending. This allows the smaller CIB to have the rending rule that GW almost gave it but couldn't when its big brother didn't have it. Up the price on the cannon to 30 and cut the blasters rof by 1. This would make the railhead no longer the automatic choice. Running an Ionhead would make sense and would add variety.

Sixth) Make the ASS standard on the Broadsides(include in the price) to where it doesn't take the precious wargear slot . Again more mobility.

Seventh) The Tau BS seems to low for the shootiest army. Couple that with Markerlights being overworked just pulling down coversaves in 5th ed and this is an area in need of refinement. I believe most would like to see a streamlining of markerlight hits in gameplay, yet few suggest as to how. I'm torn as to the answer here. It could either be get rid of the marker ability to boost bs and give all Tau units a +1 bs or up the price of markers and make the marker hits have an across the board boost(Spend the hits and all units firing upon the marked target recieve the bonus not just one squad). The other question is, Should they just make all marker lights except the pathfinder ones networked? I could see a whole thread on how to streamline marker lights.

Eighth) Last are the auxillaries. Kroot are pretty good just as they are. I'd only like to see an armor save of 5+. It wouldn't do much against a lot of small arms fire and would do nothing against the kroots biggest enemy, the flamer. It would help keep a few of them around in HtH. I would also like to see the old buy their loyalty rule where kroot leadership is based upon how much you paid per model. It would definitely bring the mercenary element back.

This is just a very unreliable rumor from some other site, but one of the Tau forums seems to think that vespid will get rending. I like this rumor. Not as much as a poison attack but It would be a nice little boost.


These Ideas are just that, ideas based upon how I see the Tau and what would make sense as to effective application of their style of warfare. Drones as troops would fix a lot of the KP and morale problems. It also fits with the fluff that the Tau consider their little friends as a living part of their society. The Sniper drone and broadside fixes better fit the Tau philosophy of warfare. There should never be a truly static gun line in a Tau army. Their concept is more of a hunt not static battle lines. So while the line appears static it should be able to pack out at the last moment. The Ion cannon/blaster improvements represent the Tau steadily improving their tech. I never covered what would be truly new as far New aliens allies because its been pretty well covered and I don't think anything I'd throw in would be any different to whats already been said.

I think that it may be interesting for the Tau to use screens of cheap kamikaze drones for that sort of job. I can imagine it now. Tau leave their devilfish and take up temporary emplacements to fire on the enemy. Enemy assault units are funnelled towards the "vulnerable" firewarrior squads. As they close, a cloud of small, half-buried drone mines rise from ground and jet into the offending unit, blowing apart any that survived the pulse-fire on the way.

Just like Rough Riders, but with added Tau flavoring. They are suicidal, but also robotic and therefore no life is lost. No different than the expenditure of any other ammunition.

Only problem is that it doesn't fit with the Tau fluff. The Tau do not practice attrition warfare and they consider the drones to be like part of their families.
Its ok to have a bodygaurd drone but they don't do kamikaze.

Kilkrazy wrote:Anything that enhances Tau abilities at offensive H2H dilutes the quality and interest of the army, IMO.

Exactly Killrazy.

Tau need to be the BEST "shooty" army and have the achilles heel of getting destroyed in CC. The way to keep that theme is to:
1) Give them better shooting (increase BS and/or weapons available)
2) Lower the points cost of crisis suits to compensate for TLOS
3) Lower the points cost of Skimmers to compensate for no more auto glance
4) Increase mobility of vehicles and/or suits

Having low leadership is something that just comes with Tau. They don't hold ground so they run if they are losing. Sucking in CC needs to stay a "theme" of the Tau army as well. Finally, they need to be able to kill things faster now that EVERYTHING can get into CC faster. The way to do that is to increase BS or improve the weapons that Tau have the ability to equip.

Wow focusedfire. That was an amazing post. I agree with all of the things listed. Tau wouldn't be invincible in 5th edition with those changes, but would finally feel like they are "updated" to work with 5th edition.

1) Special characters: Need some useful ethereals. All there is to it.
2) Drone squads : Amazing. Would love to equip them with different weapons and turn them into more than just a speed-bump against assault armies.
3) Sniper Teams: Just get rid of the "controller" and add a couple more drones to the team and you are set. They shouldn't be Heavy Support, though.
4) Wargear: DP needs a point increase, badly. Nearly everything else needs to be fixed for 5th edition. I agree with you completely.
5) Ion Cannon: Personally its pointless right now. It needs to be small blast. RG beats it in nearly every other way. And even then its usually more useful to take a XV8 team with plasma rifles.
6) AdvSS on XV88s : Yes. Yes. Yes. It should be included with a price increase.
7) BS & Markerlights : XV8s need a BS increase. Firewarriors stay the same. Markerlights either drop in cost, or give the benefit to every Tau shooting at that unit that turn. More units should be able to take markerlights (including tanks)
8) Kroot: They are fine. A 5+ save would bring them more in line with orcs but I doubt that will happen. They mainly need to get USRs that fit with their abilities.

If drones were cheaper, maybe at about 8 points a piece per(non-compulsory) troops slot I'd always take at least 2 dozen of them. Firewarriors need a boost, with either squad support weapons or them being cheaper.

And I've never read about combat drones being considered family. Tau don't use attrition warfare but that doesn't preclude them from disposable drone defenses. How do you think decoy launchers work?

Drones are unique to Tau, and really should be rethought as they're a strong army differentiator.

That's why I'd like to see more varied Drones, and especially Drone upgrades in the Troops section:

- Fire Warriors with 2 Drones of any given type would have a lot more battlefield flexibility and utility. Make these detachable and Scoring and Tau can play the same multi-Scoring FOC games in Objectives Missions, while limiting KPs when needed. Fire Warriors with these kinds of options would be *very* desirable.

- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Anyhow, I really feel that the Tau Drone potential is wasted and should be addressed in their 5E Codex.

I've always wanted to field an army that was basically a remote controlled drone force, like the droids in Clone Wars. A few control/Commander suits, maybe some tanks and such, and then clouds of drones lining up and gunning down the enemy while kamikaze drones fly head on into crowds of enemy assault units and blowing them away.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Drones are unique to Tau, and really should be rethought as they're a strong army differentiator.

That's why I'd like to see more varied Drones, and especially Drone upgrades in the Troops section:

- Fire Warriors with 2 Drones of any given type would have a lot more battlefield flexibility and utility. Make these detachable and Scoring and Tau can play the same multi-Scoring FOC games in Objectives Missions, while limiting KPs when needed. Fire Warriors with these kinds of options would be *very* desirable.

Totally with you on liking drones, and having more uses would be nice.

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

Might be simpler to make them a slotless choice like servitors (perhaps make the drone controller upgrade something that unlocks them, like techmarines giving you one servitor each)

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Even better might be the suicide charge. Bomb drones would be fun, sort of bomb squigs meats smart bombs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Anyhow, I really feel that the Tau Drone potential is wasted and should be addressed in their 5E Codex.

Absolutely, this plus a simpler/better written marker light would be nice.

Jack

@JohnHwangDD: I personally think anything dealing with CC upgrading should come from the Kroot. Tau canon dictates that the reason the Kroot are part of the "Greater Good" is they fill a specific role the Tau lack, and further more, find distasteful. So instead of adding CC weapons to drones, I think it would be more reasonable to give us a plastic kroot hound kit.

Jackmojo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

Might be simpler to make them a slotless choice like servitors

Sure, Drone Squadrons could be non-FOC. But I would like to see them as Troops.

The could be non-Scoring by default, but maybe the Halo dude makes them Scoring?

Jackmojo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Even better might be the suicide charge. Bomb drones would be fun, sort of bomb squigs meats smart bombs.

Traditionally, exploding drones has been a Necron Scarab mechanic, so I wouldn't want to see this taken by the Tau.

Combat Drones could be something of a "last resort option", perhaps deliberately overcosted to reduce their desirability.

WRT Kroot, Combat Drones would be non-shooting and non-Scoring, along with Drone stats (WS) so they would have less overall synergy and effectiveness than Kroot. Combat Drones would simply allow for a Drone-heavy theme, as a deliberately inferior alternative that contrasts and clarifies why the Tau use Kroot rather than Drones for CC capability.

Necron scarabs don't explode anymore, and haven't since the old raider list. I think it would be fine to bring it back since its been retconned from the Necrons. I would like to see kroot getting some nice buffs here. They cost more than ork boyz, but only have S4 over them, while the orkz have more attacks and higher toughness, with a nastier squad leader and weapon options. They have plenty of room to include some "evolution" upgrades similar to Tyranid biomorphs and some equipment options that are effective and don't clash thematically.

I wouldn't bother putting in stuff that is deliberately overcosted. If the lack of value is at all obvious, it just means players won't use it -- viz Space Pope and Vespids -- and why bother to invent stuff that won't be used.

A drone based army should be a viable alternative to a regular army.

As many games these days demonstrate, an army isn't balanced by having some overtly terrible units and incredible units at the same time. I'ts balanced by each having a useful role, and excelling in it.

@KK: GW does this all the time. Remember, this is a narrative wargame, so some things *should* be overcosted and others underscosted to give army theme.

Just compare BA / DA / SM Tactical Squads when built as 10-man units with ML & Flamer in Rhino. The SM version comes out well ahead of the others. Why? Because BA / DA aren't supposed to play as ordinary SM, and if they try to, they're not quite as good at it.

Or WH Sisters vs Stormtroopers when built as 10 models with 2 Flamers. The Sisters are *clearly* superior with Sv3+, S4 Bolters, and a Heavy Flamer swapping for the 2nd Flamer.

So slightly (5-10%) overcosted Combat Drones would be the same kind of thing - adding flavor and options that doesn't detract from the primary build.

But why make an army with one primary build? Why even make options for things when you intend an army to have only one effective strategy?

I think a few things should happen:

1. With all the changes to cover, line of sight, and everything else...give Firewarriors +1 Ballistic skill. Most other armies (except orks) have Ballistic skill 4+. Why are the ranged firepower superior Tau worse?

2. Firewarriors need toughness 4. Simply put.

3. Markerlight drones at 30 points is...exorbitantly expensive. And statistically, they'll miss half the time too. +1 ballistic skill and a bit cheaper?

4. Seeker missiles: Been covered elsewhere.

5. Broadsides with submunition wouldn't hurt.

6. Pinning: Every race EXCEPT for Tau has pretty much leadership 9/10/fearless. Given that you can only cause one pinning check per unit firing, its hard to pin enemy units; and *much* easier to pin Tau. Carbines really need to have a ROF of 2 at 18. Pinning isn't THAT great.


Tau are supposed to be the best at shooting, but an Ork gunline can outshoot a Tau gunline. 3 units of Lootas, a couple shokk attack guns, and a couple units of shoota boyz moving through cover into 18" can outshoot the crap out of a Tau gunline.

I'm glad a lot of you like the drones as troops concept. It was my thought that the drones wouldn't be compulsory but would be scoring. That would make pirahnas a tactically strong, non-assault, objective seizing strike wing within the Tau force.

As for my thoughts behind the rest of the ideas.To state it shortly, Looking at what is already distinctively Tau, "How would any army maximize the use of what tools they already have?"


@ Dashofpepper- I feel what your saying ,but have to disagree on the toughness 4 idea. It would be to much and counter to the base Tau concept of Tech is what makes them stronger/tougher.
I would love to see the Stealthsuits go up to toughness 4 or some bonus to make up for their nerfing in this edition.

I agree it makes sense to put heavy weapons on drones attached to the FW squads. What I have against it is that it dilutes the core Tau concept and makes Battlesuits less essential.

Lots of things in 40K do not make sense -- they are there to provide a certain aesthetic.

Never said anything about heavy weapon drones with the Fire warriors. Just a few non=overpowered special weapons. The drones bs is already a balancing factor.

Personally, the no organic special weapon support doctrine has never made much sense to me. A fire warrior is in it for life. He's constantly training and going for promotion every 4 years with the end goal of becoming a xv battlesuit pilot.

It seems, IMHO, that a shas 'ui team lead would already be getting fitted with an upper torso weapons chassis to get used to the systems he'll be using as a xv pilot.
This would be a great opportunity to add back story about how each firewarrior is set upon the path best suited for him according to his natural abilities and personality. Example: the more independently minded and daring go into pathfinder squads, then progress up into stealth suits or something along those lines.

As to the battlesuit being less essential, 5th ed has already done that. The Tau are either going to need a price reduction on them or the squads need to get larger. 4-5 Suit squads would better maximize, both, their potential and the markerlight hits they use.

focusedfire wrote:Never said anything about heavy weapon drones with the Fire warriors. Just a few non=overpowered special weapons. The drones bs is already a balancing factor.

Personally, the no organic special weapon support doctrine has never made much sense to me. A fire warrior is in it for life. He's constantly training and going for promotion every 4 years with the end goal of becoming a xv battlesuit pilot.

It seems, IMHO, that a shas 'ui team lead would already be getting fitted with an upper torso weapons chassis to get used to the systems he'll be using as a xv pilot.
This would be a great opportunity to add back story about how each firewarrior is set upon the path best suited for him according to his natural abilities and personality. Example: the more independently minded and daring go into pathfinder squads, then progress up into stealth suits or something along those lines.

As to the battlesuit being less essential, 5th ed has already done that. The Tau are either going to need a price reduction on them or the squads need to get larger. 4-5 Suit squads would better maximize, both, their potential and the markerlight hits they use.

That's my idea too. Actually the Suits should be a bit cheaper, or the same price but have some stuff built-in for free, and have larger units. Allowing larger units is no help when they can't be afforded.

Or just make the suits nastier at range. Why are they BS3? I wouldn't mind if the suit mounted weapons were meaner too.

You need the right balance between offensive firepower, mobility, defensive strength and cost. It means nothing to make suits deadlier if they can still be killed easily. IN fact, it makes them a more valuable target for the enemy.

The problems with suits now are;

1. Widespread cover saves reduce their effectiveness against traditional enemies -- SM.

2. Lack of solid cover makes the JSJ manoeuvre less effective than before so they are more vulnerable.

3. Low toughness and small unit size makes suit units vulnerable to being run off quickly by instant kill weapons and morale failure. Adding more drones helps against instant kill but makes the hiding and morale problem worse.

So one way forwards is to keep suits about as effective as they are now, but make them cheaper and allow larger units.

I think that perhaps making their shield generators go up to 3+, while the shiled drones staying at 4+ but costing less might make a nice option. Though I wish that drones didn't have any effect on a units morale were they destroyed. You take them to take hits. But if they do exactly that you then suffer from a morale test or a negative modifier in cc?

Railguns wrote:But why make an army with one primary build? Why even make options for things when you intend an army to have only one effective strategy?

I wouldn't go as far as "one primary build", but I would encourage a few (slightly) inferior alternatives.

The way I now look at Codices, is that they basically focus on 3 categories of things:
1. core things that they do very well because they are undercosted (e.g. C: SM Tacticals)
2. filler things that they do poorly because they are overcosted (e.g C: SM Assault / C: DA Tacticals)
3. things that they do situationally (e.g. Sternguard w/ Kantor)
of course, the rest are things that they don't do at all...

The above model is pretty helpful in understanding how GW intends for certain Codices to work better (or worse) than others precisely so that various Codices actually *are* different. I no longer believe that every option in a Codex should be equally competitive, or even "good", and accept that some things are there for historical / theme / flavor reasons rather than for pure utility.

So, within the above context, I see Kroot as a core capability, and Combat Drones as a filler, for completeness.
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Dashofpepper wrote:1. give Firewarriors +1 Ballistic skill. Most other armies (except orks) have Ballistic skill 4+.

2. Firewarriors need toughness 4.

Tau are supposed to be the best at shooting,

Maybe you should just play Spaz Marinz, Hurr!

1. Tau should be BS3 - that's average, and ordinary. Besides, if Tau become BS4, then SM need to be BS5? And Eldar Exarchs BS6? Tau have ordinary BS3 S3 T3 stats and they augment around this with their technology. That's why they all have Sv4+ armor and R30" S5 guns. Not because they're inherently better at shooting.

2. Again Tau should stay T3, which is the correct basic toughness. Otherwise, you want T5 SM and Orks? T8 Monsters & T10 Wraithlords? Tau survive by massed Sv4+, which is very good armor. It means they can generally move and shoot from whereever they please, not being entirely dependent upon cover for their Sv4+.

Tau shouldn't be "the best", merely good. And that's where Tau are today. Where Tau have problems is tied to the narrowness of their list and excessive Transport prices, not their Shooting.
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Kilkrazy wrote:I agree it makes sense to put heavy weapons on drones attached to the FW squads. What I have against it is that it dilutes the core Tau concept and makes Battlesuits less essential.

I don't understand how adding a couple Special weapons to a FW squad makes Battlesuits obsolete. What it would do is to usefully expand army build options away from the monolithic focus on Suits. Fundamentally, Tau should be about Fire Warrior Troops, and having more effective Drones would go a long way toward that.
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focusedfire wrote:Never said anything about heavy weapon drones with the Fire warriors.

Just a few non=overpowered special weapons. The drones bs is already a balancing factor.

I believe I advocated FW getting Heavy Gun Drones as an option. Still do.

Definitely, Specials would be highly desirable.

As much as I was disappointed when I first started to playing to see that Tau toughness and BS were less than a Space Marine's, I agree with JohnHwangDD that their stats make sense as is.

People seem to be ragging on ion cannons and sniper drone teams a lot, but I love them. They're especially good at 1000 points (or any points limit vs. Tyranid big bugs...) where railguns are expensive overkill. Not everything should be that one gun you need to have at 2500 points or whatever.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't understand how adding a couple Special weapons to a FW squad makes Battlesuits obsolete. What it would do is to usefully expand army build options away from the monolithic focus on Suits. Fundamentally, Tau should be about Fire Warrior Troops, and having more effective Drones would go a long way toward that.

*Shameless plug alert* Hey John, I'd like for you the take a look at my latest thread, Focusedfires unconventional 1750 Tau (no xvs) list and tell me what you think.

I don't see why you just can't make things equally useful rather than intentionally undercosting things to encourage its use over alternatives because it's fluffy. If people want the fluffy version, they can do it, but if they want some weird divergent force they aren't gimped for not following the rules. I'm not saying that how you see it isn't true(I'm sure that its probably fairly close to what goes on) but still, its an approach that discourages originality.

I can say as a Chaos player who has either utterly destroyed or been utterly destroyed by every Tau army I've faced, a few CC-capable units would be kind of silly to have and wouldn't gel with the rest of what I've seen. Just like how I have access to hardly any horde control or any of the shiny SM guns (Oblitz count for something, granted). No army can do everything well. I know I'm afraid to face Tau because my units generally cost a lot and I'm often outnumbered. If you're having trouble with people assaulting you through DS or weird rules, you're going to know in advance if the other guy is using that or not. Just prepare for it as a possibility. I lost the ability to consolidate into you which scares the hell out of me.

focusedfire wrote:*Shameless plug alert* Hey John, I'd like for you the take a look at my latest thread, Focusedfires unconventional 1750 Tau (no xvs) list and tell me what you think.

I think it's an interesting and unconventional list, but that you'll be challenged in the current environment. The best thing is that it's going to throw your typical opponent for a loop, because their standard "anti-Tau" tactics aren't going to match up with what you've got on the board.
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Railguns wrote:I don't see why you just can't make things equally useful rather than intentionally undercosting things to encourage its use over alternatives because it's fluffy.

its an approach that discourages originality.

That's OK, most other 40k players have similar challenges understanding why everything can't be equally good within a given list or across multiple lists. Suffice to say, if you don't "get it", you probably won't "get it" for a while.

If you're really tring to figure out why, I would suggest you take a while looking at the SM / BA / DA lists and how they're structured. Because, in each list, there are things which make similar-looking units clearly different, resulting in different optimal builds relative to one another. If you can understand why GW made each of those 3 lists the way that they did, then you can understand why I'm making Kroot more points-efficient than potential Combat Drones.

Suffice to say, the relative efficiencies and inefficiencies *create* originality and differentiation where there wouldn't otherwise be any. It's actually pretty darn clever, and really gave me a lot more respect for the GW design team.
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I can say as a Chaos player who has either utterly destroyed or been utterly destroyed by every Tau army I've faced, a few CC-capable units would be kind of silly

I wouldn't sweat it too much. The kind of CC that I'm suggesting to add wouldn't be any worse for you than the Kroot that Tau are already (or should be) taking.

I'm not convinced that over/under costing particular types of units is a deliberate GW policy. It is equally or more likely (thanks to Occam's Razor) to be due to the difficulties of costing things fairly.

For example, in the 4e Tau codex, four new units were introduced -- Piranhas, Space Pope, Vespids and Sniper Drones. Pope and Vespids were majorly overcosted and no-one uses them, so few models are sold. Sniper Drones were arguably overcosted and do not get widely used. It is clearly not in GW's interest to overcost new models they want to sell lots of.

Regarding modifying Tau basic stats -- I don't think this is needed, or justified. Again, it dilutes the flavour and variety of the game to make another army S4, T4, BS4, etc.

BS4 for Crisis suits would be justified for their cost. Alternatively make them cheaper and allow larger units.

Regarding overcosting or undercosting units to make them flavourful. This is probably true and justified in the case of SM where there is a highly flexible vanilla codex plus several alternative codexes.

If a player insists on playing Black Templars or something other than the basic codex, there have to be some measures taken to make the variant SM codexes have any distinct flavour.

That is, I would say, a problem with trying to make 8 different SM armies in 4 codexes when you can make about 7 armies out of the basic codex. (Numbers made up for emphasis.)

Tau are not in the same situation -- in fact they are in the opposite situation where trying to make more than two viable builds out of one codex is a strain.

At John, again I'm sure that this actually occurs, there is evidence, like you've pointed out, supporting it. It doesn't jive well with GW's insistence that they don't particularly care about tourney players. I would like to see Kroot slightly undercosted now considering that their classical foil the Orks got so much better for their cost. However, I will still say that the intentional direction of choices from one or more alternatives to a "fluffy" choice by cost or effectivenes changes is contrary to the creative impulses that drive a game like this.

I don't think that Tournament play enters GW's mind when they make army lists. But they do want particular themes for particular armies, and they "tweak" costs accordingly.

In the SM / MEQ cases, it's more visible as the comparisons are a lot easier.

In the case of Orks, is it any accident that basic Boyz are dirt cheap, promoting a Fluffy (and profitable) Boyz-heavy list?

I don't think Orks troops are a good example of what I'm getting at. Everyone is going to use Ork boyz, because there aren't any other troops to use, besides gretchin screens. But the Ork dex does a good job of armies that aren't green tides work too. You can go deff-wing (which is always difficult in its own right but still an option), kult of speed (trukks got better) and use battlewagons with all sorts of neat options in heavy support. It doesn't particularly punish you for taking something over another alternative beyond what the normal advantages and disadvantages those unit types have. Their are still oddities like Tankbustas but that sort of thing always comes up.

My point is that while trying to make Blood Angels into a shooty force or Tau into a close combat force are silly and against the spirit of the army you chose, it is also silly to intentionally overcost units just because they don't fit into the main strength of an army. Blood Angels still need anti-tank weapons and for now Tau still need something to keep chainsaw wielding crazies from eating their firewarriors. Instead of overcosting them, I would rather limit how many you could take. Make certain units 0-1 or reduce their squad size would be a better option.

No, Orks are a fine example in comparison to Tau. Ork Boyz are good, and people take lots of them. Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot are relatively lacking, so there's less desire to spam loads of Tau Troops. Point for point, Ork Boyz do more, better, than Tau FW or Kroot.

For a very long time, BA Fluff said they were basically a Codex Chapter. It's only 3E in which BA started to play somewhat differently, and 5E in which they were structured differently.

At this point, GW appears to limit 0-1 restrictions to named Special Characters, so that wouldn't work for normal army entries. Adding a super-buff HtH Character to Tau would be even stranger. Besides, GW wants to sell lots of models, and 0-1 goes against that.

I was speaking within terms of an individual codex rather than comparing different codex troops. I just used Blood Angels as an example because people have come to associate them with close combat specialization.

OK, no problem.

Adding combat walker suits or combat drones would not increase the capability of FW.

You have to get the core units to work otherwise adding optional units to cover their deficiencies leads to a situation where the Tau need four units to let one basic unit do its job.

It's this reason mentioned by killkrazy that I see the Tau getting a tech boost.

Most feel pinning is somewhat lacking these days as so many are able to just ignore the rule. This is why I see basic fw weapons getting a movement reducing special rule. It's not that I necessarily want a DoW style snare trap, but how do you improve the basic fw in 5th ed. while keeping them Tau.

As for kroot? How many here would like to see the old mercenary rule for them in improved form?
Something like buyable upgrades that include a rudimentary krak or frag grenade, buyable armor up to 5+ at 1pt per 1pt of save, and an option of the pulse carbines. Each trait is 1 point per model and kroot start out at 6 pts. With the old merc rule their leadership would equal cost per majority models up to a max ldshp of 10.

@KK that is why I initially suggested expanded Drone capability and reduced Transport cost to address the core FW problem of inflexibility.

Reducing transport cost -- this is an opinion of course -- is not enough in itself since (a) skimmer transports are more vulnerable than before and (b) it does not address the vulnerability of FW in H2H or increase their offensive capability. Remember that Fish of Fury is less effective than before.

Expanded drone capability IMO reduces the FW reliance on Suits for heavy firepower. Also, unless the drone carrying capacity of the squad and transport is increased, you take out FWs to add more drones. You end up with a squad a bit like IG or SM tacticals but the HWs are carried by drones.

Gundrone squadrons with heavy weapon drones is a nice idea. It's just I would prefer to solve what I see as core issues before adding new stuff.

I think these issues are just a reflection of a philosophical difference between you and me in terms of how we see Tau and their place in the overall game.

Kilkrazy wrote:Reducing transport cost -- this is an opinion of course -- is not enough in itself since (a) skimmer transports are more vulnerable than before and (b) it does not address the vulnerability of FW in H2H or increase their offensive capability. Remember that Fish of Fury is less effective than before.

Expanded drone capability IMO reduces the FW reliance on Suits for heavy firepower. Also, unless the drone carrying capacity of the squad and transport is increased, you take out FWs to add more drones. You end up with a squad a bit like IG or SM tacticals but the HWs are carried by drones.

Gundrone squadrons with heavy weapon drones is a nice idea. It's just I would prefer to solve what I see as core issues before adding new stuff.

I'd beg to disagree about increasing offensive capability.

First) If the drones on a fish were the drones for the squad, it would effectively upgrade transport capacity by 2.

Second) Not only would the Devilfish carry the new special weapon drones(Giving it flamer and maybe melta capabilities) it could also carry marker drones. We're talking 12 Fire Warriors and 2 drones.

Third) If you increase Fire Warrior effectiveness in any manner you're going to reduce their dependence on the suits. So this argument doesn't hold much weight, imho.

What change would you make to the Fire warriors that would make them less vulnerable to hth? Increase rapidfire range? That by itself wouldn't do enough. IMHO,There would still have to be something else.

I think fire warriors should get photon grenades for free. It wouldn't make them overpowered, and it fits the fluff of Tau being well equipped. Also, drop the extra attack the fire warrior shas'uis get and instead increase the model's ballistic skill to 4. The attack is worthless and I 'd much rather see the ballistic skill of the one model who can carry a markerlight increase. I like the idea of weapon options for drones, but would limit them to fusion blasters and flamers and would not allow mixing of different upgrades (two flamers or two fusion blasters but not one of each). A devilfish with two flamers would be a welcome change to the nerfed fish of fury. I agree with Kilkrazy that battlesuits should see an increase in squad size and decrease in price. Also, The shas'vre upgrade is next to worthless as it currently is. Once again, drop the melee upgrades as they make virtually no difference and raise the ballistic skill of the model to 4.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think these issues are just a reflection of a philosophical difference between you and me in terms of how we see Tau and their place in the overall game.

Unquestionably so.

I don't see a problem with providing a secondary alternative to Suits as a way to get weapons on the board. To me, it opens up a little design space in the HQ / Elites that right now cannot be considered because it would gut the army.

Anyhow, the next Tau book is probably 3 years down the road. But I'd hope for:
- more Xenos
- expanded Drones
- more reasonable Transport
- more options, including some CC

My utility chains look like this:

Troops: FW -> Kroot -> Drones
Heavies: Railhead -> Broadside -> Gun Drones
Specials: Suits -> SW Drones
HtH: Kroot / Xenos MC -> CC Suits -> CC Drones

I agree that allowing the D'Fish drones to attach to the FW squad would work.

I personally think it dilutes the unique flavour of the Tau to allow the FW to have heavy weapons on drones or man portable. In my view, the main purpose of attaching the D'Fish drones to the squad is to reduce KPs.

I would increase the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. This does not decrease their reliance on suits since the suits are still needed for all the proper heavy weapons like plasma.

It would not make FW less vulnerable to H2H. My idea is to leave them as vulnerable as before, but give the tools to the army as a whole, that a clever player can use to stop the enemy getting into H2H by outmanoeuvring and outshooting him.

Increased rapid fire range certainly helps, and allows FW to have an offensive character -- it would give them a chance to shoot an enemy squad off an objective, for example.

However, Tau are about combined arms and other changes I have suggested -- for example, cheaper suits and more of them -- would also be needed to improve the overall capability of the army.

@KK,We both agree on the need for increased squad size of the xv-8 crisis suit but I'm not sure on the points drop.

I'm also having a problem justifying the presence of so many suits when the fluff would indicate maybe only a very small percentage of fire warriors will live to make to that level. I agree with the idea greater numbers of suits but unless there is a major improvement in fire warrior survivability it just doesn't make sense.

We will just have to disagree on the limited special weapon drones. I think its a philisophical difference as to how we percieve the Tau. I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste. This means that they recognise that different things have different uses and will make use of such as long as the caste menbers maintain their homogeny. This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.


I like the idea of the increased Rapid fire range. It would be an easy improvement to make. I don't see this alone as the only fix for the fire warriors. Their shooting was almost halved in effectiveness. I think maybe access to a Tau version of combat tactics.
It really annoys me that the SMs got what should have been a Tau tactic all along. With the Tau initiative and stats it wouldn't be overpowered but a viable option when assaulted by hero's, SMs, and the other stuff that wipes a caught squad in a single turn. The ability to volutarily fallback from close combat to shoot? Not holding a set piece of land but rather being more fluid. This screams Tau, not space marine.(Please, pardon my rant.)

Your thoughts on this?

focusedfire wrote:I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste.

This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.

Totally agreed with all of the above.

But even Special Weapon Drones should be homogenous, that is, no mixing of Flamer Drone + Melta Drone.

The problem with giving tau combat tactics, is that they don't automatically rally. So i wouldn't be tactics as much as it would be "OMG Screw this IM OUT!". As for 15" rapid fire range, it's probably never going to happen.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Totally agreed with all of the above.

But even Special Weapon Drones should be homogenous, that is, no mixing of Flamer Drone + Melta Drone.

That was actually one of the provisions that I stated in the first post about them. So yeah, I think all are agreed upon them being homogenous.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The problem with giving tau combat tactics, is that they don't automatically rally. So i wouldn't be tactics as much as it would be "OMG Screw this IM OUT!". As for 15" rapid fire range, it's probably never going to happen.

Which is why it's not over powered and yet another reason to take the bonding knife.

It just occured to me that the bonding knifes capabilities might could be tweaked to allow a rally within 6" of opponent.

Doesn't combat tactics require them to successfully break way from the combat, just like when something is normally broken? Their I2 doesn't seem to help that much.

It's a chance when there is pretty much no chance for them as is. I'm not saying its great, just that the Tau should get that or hit and run.

Yeah... but at that point it's practically a suicide button rather than anything else.

I have a couple of suggestions for fixing tau for 5th et. from reading (most) of thisthread it seems to be general consensus that the BIG issue with tau is the weakness in the fire warriors, but not wanting a simple points change or BS raise. Having thought about this at some length i have a few suggestions.

1) when you upgrade a FW to a Shas'ui his stat change is BS 4, LD 8, gains a markerlight, and bonding knife, costs 15pts instead of 10.

2) make markerlights assault 1 instead of heavy 1 and make any markerlight carried by a Shas'ui networked.

this would, I think represent nicely the Shasmarking the target for his team to destroy while not robbing it of its mobility.

3) army wide USR for tau meaning enemy units basic cover save is 5+ instead of 4+. call it 'Tactical Battlefield Overlay' or something like that

4) As previously mentioned rapid fire range of 15'' for pulse rifles

I think giving squad leaders networked markerlights and bs 4 is an elegant solution to making Firewarriors dangerous while preserving or even enhancing the technological aspect of the army. Make the whole package cost something like 20 or 25 points for what is essentially a stormtrooper that has a 75% chance to make his squad more accurate for a turn. I wouldn't change pulse rifles to rapid fire at 15", we already have a problem with exceptions to rules. If we got the Networked Markerlights on Shas'ui then we wouldn't need the "reduce enemy cover saves by 1" rule anyway.

focusedfire wrote:@KK,We both agree on the need for increased squad size of the xv-8 crisis suit but I'm not sure on the points drop.

I'm also having a problem justifying the presence of so many suits when the fluff would indicate maybe only a very small percentage of fire warriors will live to make to that level. I agree with the idea greater numbers of suits but unless there is a major improvement in fire warrior survivability it just doesn't make sense.

We will just have to disagree on the limited special weapon drones. I think its a philisophical difference as to how we percieve the Tau. I believe as long as its drones then it's not violating the Tau concept of oneness or sameness. I see the Tau as capable of distinction between groups or types but not promoting such within the fire caste. This means that they recognise that different things have different uses and will make use of such as long as the caste menbers maintain their homogeny. This comes to special weapon shas'la=no, added non-firecaste special weapons=yes. A shas'ui is different because of his experience and level of progression on the firwarrior path, which is why he's allowed wargear.

Also, if the special weapon drones are taken then no other drones would be allowed.


I like the idea of the increased Rapid fire range. It would be an easy improvement to make. I don't see this alone as the only fix for the fire warriors. Their shooting was almost halved in effectiveness. I think maybe access to a Tau version of combat tactics.
It really annoys me that the SMs got what should have been a Tau tactic all along. With the Tau initiative and stats it wouldn't be overpowered but a viable option when assaulted by hero's, SMs, and the other stuff that wipes a caught squad in a single turn. The ability to volutarily fallback from close combat to shoot? Not holding a set piece of land but rather being more fluid. This screams Tau, not space marine.(Please, pardon my rant.)

Your thoughts on this?

My thinking is that the suits are now somewhat over-costed given the various issues with them.

I prefer solutions which work by relatively minor modifications of what is already there. Get the basics right, then add options carefully without upsetting the balance.

You're right that Tau should have a kind of combat tactics.

Fail-safe detonator drones?


Sorry, I love the idea of asplodey drones

It says in the codex that FW doctrine does not allow organically intergrated heavy weapons so why not have to FWs give up there shots to take a heavy weapon platform like Guardians with something like;

Twin-linked Missile Pod
Twin-linked Rail Rifle
Twin-linked Plasma Rifle

Or some other new weapons?

As for auxiliaries how about adding the races that are heard but not seen? (The Demiurg, Galgs, Humans, Nicassar and the Tarellians)

First off, Eldar already have that niche covered.

Second, Tau FW already have non-integrated semi-attached expanded capability via Drones.

Therefore, it's more natural to expand FW Drone options to provide semi-attached Special Weapon capability.

But moving to Heavy Weapons in FW squads probably wouldn't work.

Man...there's a lot of tastiness going on in this thread that would make me want to play my Tau more often if it happened...

JohnHwangDD wrote:First off, Eldar already have that niche covered.

Second, Tau FW already have non-integrated semi-attached expanded capability via Drones.

Therefore, it's more natural to expand FW Drone options to provide semi-attached Special Weapon capability.

But moving to Heavy Weapons in FW squads probably wouldn't work.

You are probably right, but it is just an idea.

Actually I would like to see a better background history (so neglected) and better fluff to rules.

I kinda like all markerlights becomming assault 1. I wouldn't make it any easer however to get them. Ethereals currently suck, considering the direction of space marine characters. I think a 75pt ethereal that is exactly what aun'shi was is reasonable.
Can't see anything else needing to be changed.

The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

Krellnus wrote:The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

I'd like to see the ion gun reissued as a devilfish upgrade (for a moderately high cost) since it feels more akin to a high tech heavy bolter then a tank main gun.

As to marker lights, given the new prevalence of "ignore cover" weapons I would think they ought to do that outright, rather then reducing by one. I'm alson on board with the Shas'ui's being assault and networked (not as sure if I'd want to see the pathfinders given that though...maybe). I still want to see the function of marker lights simplified. Perhaps a simple table giving advantages for total number of marker light hits isntead of expending counters/hits for effect.

I.e. (with each level including the above)
1 hit > ignore cover saves
2 hits > all shooting counts as twin linked
3 hits > all shooting may re-roll to wound
etc...

Just examples no serious play testing or number crunching involved.

Jack

Try playing a game with either of your ideas. You'll find they are too powerful. With markerlights upgraded like that, Tau will wipe out horde armies, and with every devilfish access to a great midrange weapon like the ion cannon, marines will last an even shorter time.

I did run devilfish with ion cannons before, using the VDR rules. They were expensive close to 200pts each, but at 2000pt games they were broken good.

Jackmojo wrote:

Krellnus wrote:The only improvement the devilfish really needs is primary weapon options, other than that they are fine (they have an advantage of rhinos and razorbacks in that they are not dedicated transports).

I'd like to see the ion gun reissued as a devilfish upgrade (for a moderately high cost) since it feels more akin to a high tech heavy bolter then a tank main gun.

As to marker lights, given the new prevalence of "ignore cover" weapons I would think they ought to do that outright, rather then reducing by one. I'm alson on board with the Shas'ui's being assault and networked (not as sure if I'd want to see the pathfinders given that though...maybe). I still want to see the function of marker lights simplified. Perhaps a simple table giving advantages for total number of marker light hits isntead of expending counters/hits for effect.

I.e. (with each level including the above)
1 hit > ignore cover saves
2 hits > all shooting counts as twin linked
3 hits > all shooting may re-roll to wound
etc...

Just examples no serious play testing or number crunching involved.

Jack

Sazzlefrats wrote:Try playing a game with either of your ideas. You'll find they are too powerful. With markerlights upgraded like that, Tau will wipe out horde armies, and with every devilfish access to a great midrange weapon like the ion cannon, marines will last an even shorter time.

I did run devilfish with ion cannons before, using the VDR rules. They were expensive close to 200pts each, but at 2000pt games they were broken good.

Could be, mind I'm not necessarily advocating leaving the points cost as is either, just saying what I'd like to see in a newer codex for them. My gut feeling is that the table I tossed up there might work okay with only squad based upgrade marker lights but fail for pathfinders and other multiple marker light squads.

I may be biased though, I've annihilated every tau army I've fought with space marines (both pre and post new codex) in 5th edition, so I feel they're clearly lacking something.

As to Tau wiping out hordes...that seems to be something they utterly lack the ability to do currently so clearly some sort of solution is required, since any horde they can't shoot down eats them alive.

Jack

I agree that Tau are lacking. I don't feel they lack at all against MEQ, but put them against a skilled Nids or Necron player and its pretty much an autolose. My bias is that well I just beat the marines player that won the last big tournament in the area, and 10 other games before that against whomever.

In thinking about it, reduce the cost of vehicles, reduce the cost of markerlights (5pts?) and make them assault weapons, would go a long ways towards making it more viable against hordes. The other thing is whats the deal with the experimental wargear, its costly and some have weird drawbacks, like iridium armor reducing your movement. Lame.

Jackmojo wrote:
Could be, mind I'm not necessarily advocating leaving the points cost as is either, just saying what I'd like to see in a newer codex for them. My gut feeling is that the table I tossed up there might work okay with only squad based upgrade marker lights but fail for pathfinders and other multiple marker light squads.

I may be biased though, I've annihilated every tau army I've fought with space marines (both pre and post new codex) in 5th edition, so I feel they're clearly lacking something.

As to Tau wiping out hordes...that seems to be something they utterly lack the ability to do currently so clearly some sort of solution is required, since any horde they can't shoot down eats them alive.

Jack

Based on what they have done for the Ork codex and what has now been revealed for the IG shootiness, the Tau better get a serious re-work when their new codex comes out. Nothing infuriates me more than to be "out-shot" by other armies when that is supposedly our strength and when we pay for it by having worse than horrible CC ability.

So, I was going to post this as a new topic, but it makes a lot more sense here:

So, the idea is,the new trend, from the looks of the 5th edition marines codex (and from the rumors about the imperial guard codex) is to have commanders or special characters who dick around with your FOC chart or let you take silly special rules for your units or whatever. So what would this look like for tau? Here’s a few ideas

3rd edition characters:

Aun’shi from what I can remember, he's an etherial that.. what, gave better cc stats to the unit he's with? and he had some silly parry rule, also. Really, it would make more sense from a gmeplay persepctive if the squad he joined could reroll their armor save (he's "lucky", as noted in the fluff), since that would let the squad he joins do better in a firefight, since it seems tau can dish it out but not take it. maybe extend this ability to squads within'' 6 or something.

4th edition characters:

Commander O’shasherra (Shadowsun):
Shadowsun already has this going on a little, with her 18’’ leadership bubble. She is clearly designed to encourage gunlines (since leadership bonuses are mostly useless on infantry hanging out in tanks). I’ve heard a lot of people clambering for “stealthsuits are scoring/troop choices”, but this (as far as I can tell) does not strictly fit her style, you know? Really, she doesn’t need that much more to really work. I’d say, slight point drop, and just for the sake of argument, that it would make more sense to take pathfinders (they’re infantry) as troops, not stealth’s, but that’s just me. Maybe make it so pathfinders don’t need to buy a transport.

Commander O’shova (Farsight): O’shova has this going on A LOT.. except it has the main effect of making his army a bitch to play… just so you canfield a semi-gakky faux-monsterous creature? feth that, I say he gets to field crisis suits as troops, right off the bat. Secondly, I say he gets to upgrade (for appropriate points costs) his crisis suit sergeants (shas’vres) to shas’el or Shas’o for the appropriate costs. This could get scary, particularly you could now have a triple shas’o team running around in the second HQ slot... which is kinda what this special character should be about- neutering your army so you can throw out a handful of stupidly-good crisis suits.

Aun’va, Master of the undying spirit: aun’va sucks hard. Really, he is just flat out bad. He, more than anyone else, needs something to not suck. He already gives off stubborn , but let’s make a few changes:

1st: stubborn is too all units on the field, not only those that see him
2nd: you can field firewarrior bodyguard vets (like the one ethereal can use) as troop choices, for the appropriate points
3rd: units within 12’’ get slow and purposeful (remember, he’s another gunline character, which tau suck at)

Give him all that, and then he might be worth looking at, at his current point value.

Forgeworld/other characters:

Anghor Prok, Master Kroot Shaper (rules found here): http://www.cygnusx1.info/tau/anghkor_prok.pdf
Anghor could stand to have a slightly lower cost (75 is overpriced for what he actually does), but let’s take a cue from the marine codex and just make him a special squad leader you can buy if you take at least one squad of kroot. He’s outside the FOC (like telios from the marine codex), instead of taking up a HQ slot which seems wasteful to me.

Commander O’r’myr (Longknife)(rules found here): http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/rmyr2.pdf

O’r’myr is forgeworld, but it would be nice if he could be added as a legit commander in the next codex. Really, he’s good enough of a standalone commander that you could just buy him for his wargear and such, with out FOc shenanigans. That said, if you wanted him to feth with the FOC, I’d say:

1st: preferred enemy against imperials (useless, I know)
2nd: firewarriors/pathfinders can infiltrate (justified as “guerilla warfare” tactics learned on taros).

And that’s about it.

New characters:

These are character occasionally mentioned in the fluff who could stand to get rules and models, in my opinion:

Brightsword: he’s farsight protégé, he’s from vior’la, so I’d suggest the following:

Shas’el statline
Fire knife setup (plasma/pods),
He and his bodyguard can outflank (mont’ka tactics come to mind)
Stim injectors are no longer special issue (vior’la’s warriors are VERY aggressive)
Kroot, vespids and human auxilleries are 0-1 choices (not as bad as farsight, but in the same vein.)

Put him around 170 points or so.

Coldfire: He’s mentioned here and there as a commanding veteran of wars between the tau and the tyranids. It’s easy to imagine a grizzed, ancient, bad ass battlesuit pilot who isn’t kill-crazy like farsight, so:

Shas’O statline
Burst cannon, flamer, shield generator, hwmt.
Army gains preferred enemy against tyranids (again, useless, but fluffy)
Burst cannons, flamers, and carbines in the army all become twin-linked, ala vulkan.
He and his body guard have counter attack, if bought alone he has hit and run.

Put him around 200 points.

thoughts?

Interesting.

Well now most of the gaurd cat is out of the bag we can stop being sensible with our suggestions as 5th ed is obviously OTT ed. (which is not a bad thein IMO) So, while we are throwing ideas around, along with my previous suggestions why not make the submunition shot on the railgun AP 3 or AP4 rending.

All secondary weapons on tanks (drones, burst cannons etc) count as defensive.

Drones on devilfish dont give up kp and can join the unit being transported by the fish

make marker drones cheaper

Crisis suits base BS 4 (no hard point eating upgrade) with the two commander level suits being BS5 and BS 6

Crisis suit bodygaurds should come with (in thier points cost) shield generators but only get2 hard points to spent

All battlesuits should become immune to instant death or FNP (or both depending on how silly we are feeling)

squadroned piranahs drones should be able to deploy as one drone squad (again should cost no kp)

Vespid, 4+save instead of 5+, and emp grenades, raise the range on thier gun to 18"

I think I am done for now and A lot of these I might live to regret later but I have thought aout them in the context of the new C:SM and the upcoming C:IG (and its leaked summary sheet) which both seem to suggest upgunning is the future.

Drones in a Piranha squadron can already deploy as one drone unit. It's required, even.

MythicalMothman wrote:Drones in a Piranha squadron can already deploy as one drone unit. It's required, even.

My mistake there just got a little over excited at all themadness we might one day get, so how about instead piranahs have stealth ninja gun drones?... or not, ok back to sensible, I'd like to see the FW piranah varient make the codex and maybe the option for drones from various sources (such as piranahs and devilfishes) to be able to rally into other units of like midels (similar to the orks 3rd ed regrouping rule) meaning that even a unit that could not normally rally can be ''commanded'' to rally by closeby friendlies?

the eldar have Eldrad and he is dead so why not we get Puretide?

Cost: 350pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 6 5 5 5 4 4 10 2+

Supreme Commander: All units within 24'' Add +1 to their leadership and count as stubbourn and all units within 12'' are fearless (not including drones, kroot and Vespids without a strain leader.

Independent Character: Unless he is accompanied by a bodyguard, is an Independent Character

Can only be fielded in a tau army of 1,500 pts, If taken the player cannot field another Special Character.

Equipment: May choose hardpoint options from the battlesuit armoury (including special issue gear)
Iridium Armour
Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker
Hard-Wired Drone Controller
Vectored Retro-Thrusters

Options: May take a bodyguard as per Codex: Tau Empire

Krellnus wrote:the eldar have Eldrad and he is dead so why not we get Puretide?

Cost: 350pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 6 5 5 5 4 4 10 2+

Supreme Commander: All units within 24'' Add +1 to their leadership and count as stubbourn and all units within 12'' are fearless (not including drones, kroot and Vespids without a strain leader.

Independent Character: Unless he is accompanied by a bodyguard, is an Independent Character

Can only be fielded in a tau army of 1,500 pts, If taken the player cannot field another Special Character.

Equipment: May choose hardpoint options from the battlesuit armoury (including special issue gear)
Iridium Armour
Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker
Hard-Wired Drone Controller
Vectored Retro-Thrusters

Options: May take a bodyguard as per Codex: Tau Empire

He seems dramatically overpriced, even with the dual stubborn/fearless bubbles. The most expensive character in the space marine codex is tigurus, I think, who floats around 230, and that's because he's a libarian with neat wargear, better stats, all the psychic powers, AND he lets you reroll all reserves, which is huge. As you've posted him, puretide is just a overpriced shas'o with some leadership abilities (ground already covered by shadowsun). If you want to see an example of a good standalone special tau character (i.e. you buy him just because he kicks ass, not because of FOC shenanigans), look a r'myr on the previous page, who has a shas'o statline but is only about 160 or so. characters who are over 200 points need to be dead hard or do something REALLY special.

I actually had more specific statlines I had written up for brightsword and coldfire and a few other ideas (like a broadside commander from sac'ea who could give infantry he joined rerolls to shooting), but I was not sure I should post them. I'll just throw this one in here in stead of drowning you in my ideas for homebrew.

Commander Coldfire, hero of the tyrannic wars:

WS: 5
BS: 5
S: 5
T: 4
A: 4
I: 4
W: 4
Ld: 10
Sv: 3+(4+)
Points: 200

Bodyguard: 0-2 special; see below
Wargear: XV-8 suits, Burst Cannon, Flamer, Shield Drone, Hardwired Multitracker, Vectored Retros (counts as that army's Special Issue Item)
USR: Relentless, preferred enemy (tyranids), counter attack, fearless.

Special Rules:

Tyranid fighters (commander tactics): Coldfire's forces are veterans of the tyrannic war, and have trained extensively to ensure their effectiveness with them. If you buy coldfire, all burst cannons, flamers, and carbines in your army wielded by tau (not drones, kroot, gue'vesa or vespids) units become twinlinked. Your army also gains the the Preferred Enemy USR against Tyranids. If you buy another character with commander tactics, you must pick and use only one.

Grudge: Coldfire and his bodyguard have the counter attack USR.

Shas'vre veterans: You may buy Shas'els and Shas'os for coldfire's bodyguard (and only his bodyguard) for +15 points and +40 points, respectively. see the Tau Empire codex for details.


---

For those keeping track: that's 75 points for a Shas'o-or-better statline, 63 points (using twinlinked prices) for his guns and wargear, and the remaining 62 points represent the cost for his special rules and bodyguard options. this is fairly standard, since if you look at farsight, his war gear should only cost him about 115 points, meaning his bodyguard options, his sword, and his preferred attack rules cost him somewhere in the area of 60 points. That said, twin-linked BS's, carbines and flamers are way better than one unit with a powersword, which is why I think farsight needs more stuff to be worth his points values, particularly when you consider your FOC gets fethed when you pick him.

Markerlights: We should have more ways to take them in the army, be considered "Assault" or get a range boost and stay "Heavy" , and they should be less expensive.

It would set our army apart from the rest and force Tau generals to use their forces in concert like they are supposed to.

Ok. You know how in WHFB the lizards have cold blooded, so hear is the Tau equivalent;

FOR THE GREATER GOOD!: All units with this special rule roll 3D6 for all leadership tests

Krellnus wrote:the eldar have Eldrad and he is dead so why not we get Puretide?

Cost: 350pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 6 5 5 5 4 4 10 2+

Supreme Commander: All units within 24'' Add +1 to their leadership and count as stubbourn and all units within 12'' are fearless (not including drones, kroot and Vespids without a strain leader.

Independent Character: Unless he is accompanied by a bodyguard, is an Independent Character

Can only be fielded in a tau army of 1,500 pts, If taken the player cannot field another Special Character.

Equipment: May choose hardpoint options from the battlesuit armoury (including special issue gear)
Iridium Armour
Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker
Hard-Wired Drone Controller
Vectored Retro-Thrusters

Options: May take a bodyguard as per Codex: Tau Empire

Sadly the Tau fluff here has completely broken itself, even before that.

The 1st Tau codex, Farsight was over 300 years old (either he found a way to cheat death or it was a susscessor or something) and Puretide was Farsights teacher.

The 2nd Tau codex, Farsight AND Shadowsun were Puretide's students, unless time folded apon itself and puretide came back in all his glory this can not happen. Puretide is dead via old age (The Tau average life span is 40 years, short but sweet as they would say. Some Tau do live longer aka space pope but i don't think they could live for 300 years plus)

The tau can't field ghosts.


In regards with a new tau codex. Yea, a few things could be done to fix it for 5th editon.

- The Tau should NOT be reinforced with any new close combat items, it breaks both the fluff and their style (unless it's a farsight only unit, then yea, that works).
- Markerlights should be able to fire while moving, Them being heavy weapons breaks mobility.
- Re-ajust the costs with units and upgrades to match 5e rulesets
- Steamline Tau rulesets (cib, kroot fieldcraft, markerlight, etc)
- The Tau need a leadership boost. For a race that believe in a "greater good" they seem to be very poor with backing their words with actions.
- Give the special Character's some usefulness (I'M LOOKING AT YOU SPACE POPE!)

Here is my input now (if i was writing the codex myself) Say if anything is OP, over costed, etc

Battlesuit Support systems

Comms jammer - 20 pts - Special issuse *New*

A extremely powerful electronic signal scattering beacon that breaks all but the most potent long range communication, disrupting received orders and commands. Deep striking units (including your own) that don't roll a scatter result with the scatter dice must re-roll the dice. HQ units that deep strike are uneffected by this rule (They make their own commands and compensate)

Advanced Stealth generator - 30 pts - Special issuse and xv22/25 only *new*

A improved Stealth system created with live combat data from the xv22 and xv 25 suit models, greatly improving the system beyond it's standard counterpart. Units firing on a model with a Advanced Stealth system check to see if they can see the target, just like using the night fighting special rule, except that the distance seen is now 2d6x2 instead of 2d6x3. If the unit Equiped with the advanced stealth system did not move or shoot during it's turn, the distance seen formula is 2d6.

Battlesuit wargear

Hard-wired Targetting array - 10 pts

A internal Targetting system that preforms equal to the external one. Increases the users BS by 1

Infanty wargear

Photon genades *Changed*

Photon genades may be used via either before or after a lost assault. If used before, they negate the charge bonus of the attacking unit. If used after losing a assault, the enemy unit attempting a sweeping advance gain a -2 penatly to their roll. (Photon genades may only be used once per game per unit)

Etheral *Changed*

Etheral may take a bodyguard of fire warriors. Each cost 3 points extra but have +1BS and +1T

Units within line of sight with the etheral gain +1ld

"Etheral Abilities"
A Etheral may take a Ability at a cost of 20 pts per ability, up to a max of 2. A etheral may use 1 ability per turn, any time.

Inspiring Fire(Your turn only) - A Tau unit within the line of sight of the etheral gain +1 BS until the end of the turn.
Relentless Water(Your turn only) - A enemy receive a +1 cover save penalty from shooting from each unit of tau, this effect stacks (can not increase the cover save over 6+) until the end of the turn
Grace of Wind(Your turn only)- A tau unit who may shoot as if he didn't move, regardless if he moved or not
Stotic Earth(Enemy's turn only) - A tau unit within line of sight gain +2ld until end of the turn.
Etheral's Wisdom(Enemy's turn only) - When the etheral or his bodyguard are assualted, the etheral creates multiable copies of itself and it's bodyguard to confuse attackers. The etheral and his bodyguard gain a 4+ invunability save.

If a Etheral is killed, All Tau (Not including kroot, drones or vespid) imply a -1ld penalty to all moral and leadership checks.

Special Character

Aun'va - Master of the undying spirit *changed*

May come with 2 fire warrior bodyguard sqauds, same rules as the etheral bodyguard.

Units within line of sight with the etheral gain +2ld

Aun'va may take 3 abilities free of charge. He can use 2 abilities per turn.

If Aun'va is killed, All Tau (Not including kroot, drones or vespid) imply a -2ld penalty to all moral and leadership checks, however all tau units become enraged at the enemy, for such a crime against the greater good shall not go unpunished. All Tau weapons gain a extra shot (exluding railguns) regardless of weapon type. All tau units must fire whenever they are able to, regardless of range.


Skyray missile gunship *New upgrade*

AA countermesures - 20 pts - Skyray only upgrade *New*

A complex aireal tracking device that is linked to air caste navy ships in space. If a enemy unit attemps to deep strike (including method via drop pod), you may expend a number of seeker missiles. Roll a d6 equal to the number of missiles expended, using the results on the table below.

1-2 -The incoming missile misses, the enemy unit deeps strikes normaly
3-5 -The incoming missile explodes before it directly hits them. Each deep striking unit takes a str 6 ap - hit (saves allowed), before coming into play.
6 -The incoming missile directly hits the deep striking unit. Each deep striking unit takes a str 8 ap 2 hit (saves allowed), before coming into play.

Devilfish troop transport *New upgrade*

Stealth generator - 10 pts - Devilfish only

A larger stealth system that's based with the application of the xv 15 and 25 suits. The stealth system is hard wired and and compacted into the hull, removing the need to use the devilfish's already cramped interior space.

New tank idea i thought up. Yes it sounds quite overpowered, but it's limited to 1 only.

Swordfish supressor gunship

A new variant of the tired and true hammerhead gunship. The prototype swordfish provides fire warriors teams with large amounts of heavy supressing fire, allowing them to either regroup or continue the attack while a rain of blue death strikes their foes. It's battles with the orks has proven most effect, devestating their ranks with unstoppable amount of firepower.

160 points
Armour; 13,12,10
BS: 4
Type: Tank, Skimmer
Crew: Tau Fire caste
Unit Type: Vehicle

A Swordfish is equpped with landing gear, and is armed with 4 turret-mounted heavy cib's (Range 24" Str 5 AP 4 Heavy 5, Rending) and a multi-tracker.

The secondary weapon system is either two flamers (counted as defensive weapons) at 15 pts for both or a shield generator system for 30 pts, giving the swordfish a 4+ invunability save.

Options - The swordfish may be equipped with any of the vehicle upgrades permitted by the tau armoury

Prototype - The swordfish is a prototype gunship, and as such can not be fielded in large numbers. Your Force may only include 1 Swordfish supressor gunship.


That's all i can think up for now. Tell me what you all think ^_^

Krellnus wrote:Ok. You know how in WHFB the lizards have cold blooded, so hear is the Tau equivalent;

FOR THE GREATER GOOD!: All units with this special rule roll 3D6 for all leadership tests

a problem with that would be that your going for the LOWEST score you can get, rolling 3d6 instead of war 40K's 2d6 would be quite....errr.....

Your suggestion for the photon grenades is pretty neat. Sweeping advances are such a pain that some way to get out more easily would be kool, and I think it fits the photon grenade fluff well.

Those Ethereal abilities are pretty neat and flavorful, and I like the Devilfish stealth fields (straight out of DOW!).

I concur

with the tau 3d6 leadership roll i got a head of myself (again) i forgot to add picking the lowest 2 d6

MythicalMothman, Thank you for the reply ;3 Gotta mix things up i say. And now for some more ideas from your friendly Aussie tau supporter ;3

Battlesuit Support systems

Break shield - 10 pts - special issuse *New*

A extremely powerful charged emitter that, when activated, unleashes a powerful kinetic pluse that knocks away all objects. When the unit is assualted, the player may opt to use the break shield. Move the attacking unit or units 6" from the user. No attacks are made on the user of the device, however the user may not use his "6 jetpack move or shoot during the next turn. Independent Character only (no drones). May only be used once per game.


A new battlesuit

XV 92 Stormbringer (80 pts, 10+ for promotion)

Same stats as a broadside, expect the weapons are a single railgun that can only fire submission rounds (no solid shot)

A new Variant of the old XV 88. The XV 92 was designed to support Tau cadres with bombardments from it's modified railguns. Not content with simple solid rounds, the Stormbringer is designed to use submission rounds to disperse hostile hordes of enemies.

I like the idea of a few more "special" characters however I would want them to be different from what other dex's already have. I would rather see them chage the FOC or change how your army plays. For instance I would rather not have a tau version of vulkan or any other SM leader.

Personally I am going to watch what happens with IG, Crons and DE (as rumored they will all be out before a tau update) to see what sort of special rules these primarly shooting armies get.

superscope, I like your ideas. As for my two cents said before, making the kroot more effective in CC would be nice, I think giving them a better initiative and better armor save would help a lot. The toughness does not have to change as it fits the fluff, but they have superior reflexes than a normal human, but have the same initiative? That does not make sense to me. That and let them increase their cover save by 1. I would also like to see the vespid be able to outflank. But that is just me.

guardpiper wrote:superscope, I like your ideas. As for my two cents said before, making the kroot more effective in CC would be nice, I think giving them a better initiative and better armor save would help a lot. The toughness does not have to change as it fits the fluff, but they have superior reflexes than a normal human, but have the same initiative? That does not make sense to me. That and let them increase their cover save by 1. I would also like to see the vespid be able to outflank. But that is just me.

Thanks. I like to think of ways to improve but not to break or distort what's already there. I agree with you with kroot improvements, they do need a higher initiative to prevent them getting turned into brown paste before they strike. That's true that they do have superior reflexes and they should represent that.

Also, i'm ok with the idea of special characters. But to be different from others i say stick with more "special issuse" items onto our suit commanders, so we can custom fit them to whatever style we like. a example would be some of the counter items from my other posts (Comms jammer) so you could base your commander on the idea of breaking deep striking (Because we all know deep striking terminators bring alot of pain to the average tau)

Sirius42 wrote:Well now most of the gaurd cat is out of the bag we can stop being sensible with our suggestions as 5th ed is obviously OTT ed. (which is not a bad thein IMO) So, while we are throwing ideas around, along with my previous suggestions why not make the submunition shot on the railgun AP 3 or AP4 rending.

No kidding. Everybody and their dog now has S10 shots, most have it in some form of template as well. WTF. That was one thing that truly made Tau special in the beginning was the strength of their guns. Now again everyone is S5 for everybody or hellfire/poison rounds.

So what are Tau going to get. Railguns are now going to S12 Ap1 with a re-roll on both to wound and vehicle damage tables? Its almost have to come to this to make up for just how powerful the last few codexs have turned out.

Jayden63 wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:Well now most of the gaurd cat is out of the bag we can stop being sensible with our suggestions as 5th ed is obviously OTT ed. (which is not a bad thein IMO) So, while we are throwing ideas around, along with my previous suggestions why not make the submunition shot on the railgun AP 3 or AP4 rending.

No kidding. Everybody and their dog now has S10 shots, most have it in some form of template as well. WTF. That was one thing that truly made Tau special in the beginning was the strength of their guns. Now again everyone is S5 for everybody or hellfire/poison rounds.

So what are Tau going to get. Railguns are now going to S12 Ap1 with a re-roll on both to wound and vehicle damage tables? Its almost have to come to this to make up for just how powerful the last few codexs have turned out.

three words..... Tau death star ;3 Hope whatever planet that gets attacked by it has a cover save ;3

Casper wrote:I like the idea of a few more "special" characters however I would want them to be different from what other dex's already have. I would rather see them chage the FOC or change how your army plays. For instance I would rather not have a tau version of vulkan or any other SM leader.

Personally I am going to watch what happens with IG, Crons and DE (as rumored they will all be out before a tau update) to see what sort of special rules these primarly shooting armies get.

should I?... Ah, hell, why not.

Here's a couple other characters I wrote up for Advance Tau Tactica Earlier today (original thread here): http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12675

I should just note in advance that these characters are written using 4th ed stats for everything else; they were part of a thought experiment to see what 5th ed. tau characters might look like:

Brightsword

Brightsword is mentioned briefly in Farsight’s fluff as a young, brash firewarrior. On top of this, he’s from Vior’la, a Tau world known for the aggressive nature of its warriors. Because of this, I decided to, thematically and game-play wise, make Brightsword a character that would reward aggressive tau players.

Commander Brightsword of Vior’la, Disciple of O’Shova:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 4
A: 3
I: 4
W: 3
Ld: 9
Sv: 3+(4+)
Points: 175

Brightsword counts as your army’s +1 Fire Caste Commander.

Bodyguard: 0-2 Shas’vre Bodyguards
Wargear: XV-8 suits, Missile pod, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Hardwired Multitracker, Stimulant Injector (special, see below)
USR: Independent Character, Relentless, Feel No Pain

Special Rules:

Commanding Style - Spirit of Mont’ka:
If you take Brightsword, All skimmers and crisis suits may outflank. You may also reroll one reserve each turn. However, due to Brightsword’s distrust of non-Tau, Vespids, Human Auxiliaries, and Kroot are all 0-1 choices.

Additionally, stimulant injectors are no longer special issue wargear.

If you buy another character that has “commanding style” as a special rule, you must pick and use only one. (i.e. if you buy two special characters, the FOc-modifications of one character override the other's, to represent the tau chain of command.)

Notes:

Point Rundown:

-50 points for shas’el statline
-67 for wargear
-58 points for outflanking and stimulants on all your crisis teams.

Outflanking is very powerful in 5th, so he might need a point bump, but I think Tau’s lack of nasty units that can get stuck in CC mitigates this somewhat.

Gameplay Considerations:
Obviously, Brightsword caters to aggressive players, as outflank is very powerful in 5th edition. When one considers that outflanking units may move and shoot normally, one can really begin to appreciate how powerful this is: an outflanking squad of devilfish-mounted firewarriors can outflank by turn 2 (with a positional relay), move 12, disembark within 12’’ of an enemy squad, and inflict serious hurt on a enemy heavy weapon team, or perhaps a squad of lurking gaunts waiting on an objective. The biggest limitation on this is Tau only have one piece of wargear that speeds reserves (positional relay), and it is specifically designed to keep you from bringing your entire army from reserves. I added the once-per-turn reroll to acknowledge this as an obstacle to a pure deep striking/outflanking Tau army, and raised his point cost appropriately.

The second effect of freeing up stimulant injectors is less powerful. On a standard Crisis Suit team, this will have the effect of making the teams last slightly longer in a firefight. The trade off is once the model with the Stim Injector (the team’s shas’vre or team leader) is wounded once, it becomes increasing risky to use allocate wounds on him, as this risks the loss of the team’s drones and bonding knife. However, when used on Brightsword’s bodyguard, (or a shas’el/o with his own bodyguards as a second HQ choice), the stim injectors come into their own, allowing an entire team feel no pain, allowing them to attack more recklessly than a Tau player might normally. This, again, fits Brightsword’s theme of powerful, but recklessly aggressive tactics.

+++

Ironwind
The only original character of the bunch, he’s an infantry commander from Sa'cea who tools around in unique broadside suit. His abilities are drawn, fluff-wise, from the fact that Sa'cea is one of the most heavily militarized tau worlds, and would probably have a large amount of infantry. He is designed to complement the “mobile infantry” playstyle, although you could conceivably use him to complement a static gunline.

Commander Ironwind, Coalition Leader of Sa'cea.

WS: 4
BS: 5
S: 5
T: 4
A: 2
I: 3
W: 3
Ld: 10
Sv: 2+(4+)
Points: 180

Ironwind counts as your army’s +1 Fire Caste Commander.

Bodyguard: 0-2 Shas’vre Broadside Pilots, or 0-12 Veteran Shas’vre (see ethereal bodyguard from Tau codex). Both choices are scoring (see below)
Wargear: XV-88-2 suit, Special Issue “Great-knife” railgun, Shield Generator, Hard-Wired Stabilization System, Hard-wired Target Lock, bonding knife, Hardwired drone-controller

USR: Independent Character, slow and purposeful, stubborn.

Special Issue “Great-knife” railgun:
Solid Shot: S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Twinlinked
Submunition: S6 AP 4 Large Blast, Twin-linked.

Options: Ironwind may buy up to two drones of any type, at the same price, options, etc.

Special Rules:

Commanding Style – Logistical Expert

Ironwind is one of the fire caste’s foremost experts at logistics, and as such, his troops are among the best supplied in the empire. Any firewarrior and Pathfinder squads get photon and EMP grenades for free. Stealthsuits get EMPs for free. If you buy a team leader or shas’ui/vre for these squads, they may take a markerlight at no additional cost.

Additionally, Broadsides are scoring units.

If you buy another character that has “commanding style” as a special rule, you must pick and use only one.

Frontline Warrior: Ironwind still fights alongside the ranks of shas’la warriors, believing that it is better for a commander to fight and die for his trooper than sit safely in the backfield. As a result, he has become an excellent team leader at the infantry level.

Any Tau squad (not kroot, drone, or vespids without a strain leader) attached to or joined by Ironwind gains slow and purposeful. Any squad attached to Ironwind gains stubborn.

Notes:

Points rundown:
-80 points for a Broadside Shas’vre or better statline,
-30 points for wargear, 20 points for his gun.

[…not counting his gun, but be aware: a crisis suit shas’vre is 35 points, and the rail gun on a hammerhead is 50 points (that’s 85 points together). A broadside shas’vre is 80 points. If you wanted to assign a value for the gun’s submunition ability, I’d put it at +20 points on top of the model, since it replaces your secondary weapon system (so no smart missiles or plasma rifles.) I feel this is fair.]

-50 points for free infantry wargear and scoring broadsides.

Gameplay Considerations:

Ironwind is designed to complement the “mobile infantry” style of tau. (for a longer description' see this article: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5525)

Excerpt from above thread wrote:
The basic idea is that a pair of Broadside teams can reasonably soak anti-tank fire from just about any unit in the game, while giving better than they get. Supported by terrain hopping XV8 teams and Stealthed XV25s, these expensive Kau'yon lures provide something for your opponent to futilely fixate on while the remainder of your untouchable army pounds them into dust. Several inexpensive offensive rapid response units stand ready to intercept any fast assaulters who might try to engage the XV88's; frequently these take the form of an Ionhead and a medium sized (5-7) unit of Vespid. A pair of Kroot units will usually stand ready out of sight to countercharge whatever remnants make it into close combat with either of the Broadside teams.

Since your infantry are on the move, they are likely to encounter fast assaulters and enemy armor about midfield. Grenades thus give your squads tactical options against enemy armor, and photons allow you the possibility of tying up multiple enemy squads in an assault on a squad sacrificing it’s self for the greater good. Scoring broadsides mean you'd not have to babysit your objectives with additional squads; you now have the tactical flexibility to hold you points with broadsides and deploy the full bulk of your infantry forces to take enemy points. Finally, Ironwind himself can compensate for the lack of submunitions the army has (due to numerous broadsides in HS slots), while allowing a single squad of attached firewarriors to advance up field, providing rifle support to the carbine-using squads further up the board.

Brightsword would be a interesting choice, however sadly fluff wise it would be quite compilcated. His tactics were too brutal (even more-so that farsight) and was sensored by the tau empire from the excessive carange he dealt to the imperium.

Ironwind sounds cool (<3 broadsides) because i like a nice bulk amount of infantry XD

My Tau dreamteam:

FW's get photons free. They get special weapon drones (see below.) Carbines inflict either pinning or "difficult terrain" on the enemy, tau player choice; ala a thunderfire. Obviously, carbines get a bit more expensive.

Kroot get Stealth and Move Though Cover USR, and may infiltrate with krootox. Shapers are 20 points, but give armor to their squad for free, and let them reroll their outflank die.

Pathfinders get stealth USR. Give them an option to fight mounted in tetras. 0-1 Squad at full strength counts as a troop choice with appropriate Commander option.

Drones becomes scoring with appropiate commander option. they gain 0-2 special weapons: burst cannon, fusion gun, missile pod, flamer.

vespids rend, bitches. They also get S5 Ap 3 flame template if they buy a sarge.

Gue'vesa are officla units, and come in massive swarms of 20 guys; are treated like "militia" units. give them stubborn (This is our land, imperial bastards!) to make them the priemer tau "objective holder" unit.

Crisis suits are fine. Just give farsight's boys a slightly overpriced powersword/fist as a hardpoint option and they're perfect.

Stealth Teams and Sniper teams are merged into one unit, with sniper drones being a weapon option for a stealth shas'vre. Frags are useless for assaulting them, (which never made sense to me; they're fething invisible), they WILL hit first in CC.

Crisis suits of at least 3 suits become a scoring choice if you buy a Shas'O.

Give Shas'el/O option to enter play as a tank commander (enemy units must reroll sucessful hits to hit a command tank in melee, have special tank loadouts like ion-cycler turret mounts.) Counts as HQ choice, possibly messes with FOC chart (skyrays in fast attack!)

Etherials get a 4+ invul save. they convey +1 leadership as a global bonus, so units that can't see him get a little something. The veteran bodyguard becomes a troop choice if you buy Aun'va.

Skyrays get free shots at deep strikers, (S4 Ap- hit on entire squad on a 4+) and have options to transport gun drones ala drone harbringer. (functions as assult vehicle to tie up enemy squads with lots of drones in melee)

Hammerheads... can't think of anything too big, honestly. maybe get railrifle gun mount for longrange support.

Devilfish, see Hammerhead.

Pirahna can launch drones into assault, similar to skyray. I never use them so I'd need to take a look at their stat block before saying anything stupid.

special dudes:

Shadowsun: slight point drop (down to 160) tanks within her leader bubble ignore shaken/stunned, as shadowsun is screaming at the crew over the comms not to fail the greater good. NOW people'll use her.

Farsight: Crisis suits are ALL troop choices, not merely scoring (although they can't deep strike if troops), free universal WS, I, and ld. boost, everyone gets counter attack, and shas;vres can buy powerswords/fists. The guy cripples you Force-Org-Chart, so he'd BETTER be good. slight price increase, up to 195.

Aun'va: significant point drop; he is grossly overpriced. he should be around 140, before you add (any) bodyguards. You may buy him vet firewarrios or those silly bouncers as bodyguards for 12 or 25, respectively. He gives stubborn to all tau, not just those that can see him. He can field veteran firewarriors as troops. bodyguards all get that rerollable 4+ cover save. and lasly, units within 12 get counter-attack.

While I'm one of the first to shout for more/newer and make what we've got work/better I'm not sure if the Tau will get to hop on the Special Character bandwagon.

I do see the ones that we have as improving I don't see us getting a leader for every suit-weapon layout.

IMHO, I see the Tau SCs as always being a little overpriced because elevation of the One is not the Tau way. Now, they do raise up heros but they aren't for glorification of the individual or a particular battle-tactic. They are rather symbols of what any Caste-member can become by following the path of the Greater Good.
It's for this reason that I feel that improvements will and probably should be mainly confined to the main army.

Now having said that, if the IG codex ends up being what it's rumored to be. Then my craziest wish-list to date is boring in comparison. It's going to be a fun 2 years of speculation on the next Tau codex.

Change Aun'va's rerollable cover save a rerollable inv save (OMG AN EHTEREAL WORTH ITS POINTS!!!)

BTW: what is a SC?

Special characters

Astalado wrote:GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT CAN HOLD UP IN CC OR OVERWATCH!


Thats all we need something to bolster the FW.. Something that we fight off Drop Pod into line in one turn. I am sorry but we can not handle assault give us some kind of alien or something with 3 armor and a power weapon or rending or something. FW they can not handle anything, with the adding of everyone getting cover saves. It like giving fire warriors a gun and ask them to shot there own head. in 4th it was the ability to kill marine units at about 24 inches and do it well to hold off the tide. Now with cover saves and marines in groups of even 2 can whip a unit. Cover saves and this whole thing about mixing units to give each other 4+ in the open.. well point blaster on chin, aim up and fire....

In the fluff it speaks about how tech the tau is... Then explain to me why we do not have Overwatch!!.. One of the most advanced gun army in the game sets there and watches Fleeting Marines and other assault armies run up to us and hits us with out pulling the trigger? Umm, it talks about how the Tau are hunters... We are Hunter Cadres. We hunt.. not set there and watch the pretty Marine teleport in and hit us upon first turn.

YES!! we have the best basic weapon in the game. we have a Str 5 ap 4 gun that shoot 30. But with the rules of running and flank and everything else. Every game I played 30 in range mean nothing. So I can shoot far but when the chainsword is in my chest.. who cares?

Vespid Rock with there guns.. Marines hate them but they also can be defeated with 3 marines in hand to hand and there weapons are same range as a fleeting assault marine. They don't get to shoot. A ten man squad of Vespid with str 5 AP3 and a couple of marker lights thrown in as support to up there bs to five worked like butter in 4th. But with cover save there in the crapper. in 4th I used 29 Vespid as counter charge in my gun lines. Now.. there just like fire warrior they set there and watch chainsword rip them apart


Kroot. waste of points. They are cool but can't hold up in hand to hand with the new rules. Stathammer a 10 man squad of marines and 20 man unit of Kroot. most of the time Kroot will lose with LD 7 Marines will use there str 4 and power weapons vs t 3 and cause more wounds and kroot lose combat and when come to ld rolls ld 7 suck as a base!

Tau need something like Over Watch. The gun Line is dead in 5th untill there is something that can stop assault armies.

Farsight Army is only thinig I have come up with that may have a chance but only against MEQ. I have enough AP 3 Weapons and speed in suits and mech, but agains horde its dead.

There is no one list that can be stand up to all types of Warhammer. There is no balance army to hold back the tide!

Sorry for the rant.

i think youre focussing on MEQ way too much, not everything is meq, stealthsuits rape non MEQ units, just last night i shot off 15 shots at some rangers, then assaulted them and decimated them. markerlights are your solution to heavy cover. with marker lights, more stealthsuits, and a sniper drone squad dropped 8 dark reapers in cover in one shooting phase. kroot arent a waste if you use them right, power weapons dont mean too much against kroot with the best sv being 6, plus kroot absolutely rape anything in melee that isnt strictly a melee unit(orks, assault marines etc) again last night, my opponent deep striked the eldar flying guys who drop the grenade pack, cant remember the name. he dropped next to my commander and fire warrior line and shot into my HQ, killed 2 drones, i assaulted him with 20 kroot, killed them all and i took 3 wounds. and youre math is wrong, 20 kroot assault 10 marines, marines get 10 attacks(a pistol but no CC weapon), hit on 4+ so 5 hit, Wound on 3+ so 3 wounds roughly, 3 dead kroot. then if you assault well you can get 12-15 kroot into melee, so roughly 38 attacks, 19 hits, 9-10 wounds, 3-4 unsaved. so against normal marines theyre about equal. and that's assuming you don't soften up the marines with some snipers or plasma. also, 20 kroot are cheaper than 10 marines, 140 vs 190, so you can expect them to be a bit weaker.

as far as assault troops, go, pin them, pin them fast. sniper drones are great for this, use some pathfinders to hit up 4 or 5 marker lights on them, drop their leadership from 8 to 4 and buff bs, you'll probably pin them, then just kill them when you get the chance. as far as assault termies, if they deep strike behind your line, they cant assault this turn, i've had plenty of experience with termies dropping like flies to numbers. lets say 6 termies deep strike, 12 fire warriors open up at rapid fire range, with the aid of 2 marker hits, i usually run 6-8 pathfinders so thats easy to do. now you have 24 shots, BS 5, 20 hit, 3+ to wound, 13 wounds roughly, 2-3 fail. 120 points worth of fire warriors took out 80-120 points of termies in one shooting, and thats with only 2 marker lights, if you get more hits, even more stuff to buff up. Railguns are your best bet. a squad of broadsides would be great against them. anti MEQ crisis suits would be invaluable too.

tau are still quite viable in 5th edition, the tactics are a bit different, i think you pretty much have to use markerlights to negate the cover

Give Kroot Furious Charge

Krellnus wrote:Give Kroot Furious Charge

And/or the Stealth USR. Its stupid that their ability ONLY works in forests...

ObiFett wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Give Kroot Furious Charge

And/or the Stealth USR. Its stupid that their ability ONLY works in forests...

Indeed, terrain specific/dependant abilities are crap, and impossible to point out fairly, since either you get tehm for free (thereby getting an advantage when the board is setup right) or they charge for them, leving you at a disadvantage on some tables...

I was super pissed to see it happen again in the very newest codex (with techmarines Bolster Defences ability)

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

ObiFett wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Give Kroot Furious Charge

And/or the Stealth USR. Its stupid that their ability ONLY works in forests...

Indeed, terrain specific/dependant abilities are crap, and impossible to point out fairly, since either you get tehm for free (thereby getting an advantage when the board is setup right) or they charge for them, leving you at a disadvantage on some tables...

I was super pissed to see it happen again in the very newest codex (with techmarines Bolster Defences ability)

Jack

bolster defenses is not that bad, since it always is in effect regardless of terrain type. It isn't like you're going to be playing games with no cover what-so-ever, now is it? By contrast, kroot's field craft (and other similar abilities, like 4E's "jungle fighters" from the Ig codex) only have an effect if there is a forest on the map, which is totally arbitrary since there is no guarantee what so ever you'll be playing on a forest table. the best way is to just give them stealth and move though cover, and make up the losses by letting krootox infiltrate (they would be decent pillbox units if they could only infiltrate with a squad.)

Yea, that would help the kroot a ton.

What about Tau stealth suits? It's wise to note that the Tau stealth suits don't actualy have the stealth USR. What about that? Also, the stealth generators they have totally random rolling (2d6x3). It's not cool to rely their ability to avoid getting shot at by shear randomness and luck, especialy when their max firing range is 18"! At equal range, a unit needs to roll at a dice total of 6. With two die that's roughly a 58 to 65% chance. Stealth suits cost alot for what they are. Their fire power and other abilities (jump jets, deep strike, etc) are fine, but the stealth generator is broken IMO.

I think JSJ got weaker in 5e not just because of LoS changes, but also because of the proliferation of running and fleeting enemies.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
bolster defenses is not that bad, since it always is in effect regardless of terrain type. It isn't like you're going to be playing games with no cover what-so-ever, now is it? By contrast, kroot's field craft (and other similar abilities, like 4E's "jungle fighters" from the Ig codex) only have an effect if there is a forest on the map, which is totally arbitrary since there is no guarantee what so ever you'll be playing on a forest table. the best way is to just give them stealth and move though cover, and make up the losses by letting krootox infiltrate (they would be decent pillbox units if they could only infiltrate with a squad.)

Incorrect, its "a single Ruin", with the added deal breaker of "in your deployment zone" so its actually even worse then jungle fighter or field craft, because you might not even get to use it on a table with a ruin...if its in the wrong spot.

Jack

cerberez wrote:I think JSJ got weaker in 5e not just because of LoS changes, but also because of the proliferation of running and fleeting enemies.

Agreed. I have only been playing for about 6 months but I remember hearing a rumor that our Suits used to be able to jump 12", shoot, jump 12". Is this true? If so, and considering they seem to be going back to alot of the older rules, this may be something we could look forward to.

ObiFett wrote: I remember hearing a rumor that our Suits used to be able to jump 12", shoot, jump 12". Is this true? If so, and considering they seem to be going back to alot of the older rules, this may be something we could look forward to.

It wasn't really a rule. . . In the sheet of rumors that came out before the Tau release, jetpacks could jump 12 but only jump back 6.



. . . The new IG looks absurdly powerful - I wonder if we'll see lots more IG armies now.

According to the original Tau 3e codex design article on the GW site (I don't know if it's still there) they had the suits jumping either 12/6 or 12/12 and found it too powerful.

However, now that all infantry have been speeded up, perhaps the suits should be 12/12.