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Post by: Da Boss
I guess we're seeing the dark side of the new plastic technology- it allows terrible ideas to be executed in excrutiating detail. Wow. I mean, wow.
Really NOT happy if the infantry in this book are all back to fighting in blocks. I'll be very glad I'm selling off my beasts, in that case.
But as for Warmachine, PP have some awfully bad quality control at times too- Ratwolves, Giant Hand Runeshapers and Stupid Pose Syndrome...
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Post by: nyyman
+1 For GreenMeanStompas post
123
Post by: Alpharius
Wow.
Any chance that they just go back to the drawing board on the Razorgor and come up with something better?
I mean, surely Nagash needs something to play with, right?
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Post by: Da Boss
After the Skaven release this is really poor. Do they have an A Team and a B Team of sculptors or something?
And is that supposed to be a mount of some kind?
Looks to be inspired by the new stupid design direction that D'n'D dire animals have gone.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Da Boss wrote:After the Skaven release this is really poor. Do they have an A Team and a B Team of sculptors or something?
And is that supposed to be a mount of some kind?
Looks to be inspired by the new stupid design direction that D'n'D dire animals have gone.
As a fairly strong critic of Games Workshop on many things, I'll be the first to stand on a box and shout about how excellent the recent skaven sculpts are. In fact there have been some very good ranges recently.
But this range is looking desperately below par, not only in comparison to the other sculpts but in general they are just UGLY.
I am glad the new range is going to be limited and we'll see many older models continuing to be used, because the new stuff is poor as hell.
GW, pull the damned minos before they go into full production... The community will wait for a superior sculpt if you let them know it's happening.
And the Razorgor? Just remove it from the Armybook and pretend it was never made... Blame it on 4chan...
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Post by: LunaHound
No doubt the core / excitement of BoC have been killed off by minos + other lackluster new sculpts , does the loss in profit mean sooner price adjustment?
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Post by: Da Boss
Nah, just means they'll decide the range "isn't profitable" so they won't update them for a decade. See also: Dark Eldar.
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Post by: Kingsley
What's the deal with the negative internet consensus on those new minis? IMO they look amazing, exactly the way I've always pictured Beastmen.
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Post by: nels1031
I'm ok with the minotaurs and bestigors personally. A different paint job on the minotaurs probably would've helped. I'll withhold any harsh judgements until I see them up close, and how many options their kit has.
The Razorgor or whatever its called.... come on. All of the Mythological beasts from various cultures that could've have been given the Warhammer/Chaos spin and this is what they think of? A spiky boar? Really? Totally uninspired.
A giant/Alpha-chaos spawn that could be customised to have all sorts of special rules, akin to the hell pit abomination would've been better. Or some beastmen version of the warshrine, like in the newer Gotrek and Felix novel that had the tribe actually carrying around their Herdstone...
As far as the rules rumours, I'm all for the loss of the herd system, made it incredibly tedious to move every single gor around.
My 2 cents.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Or some beastmen version of the warshrine
Since the Warriors of Chaos do not yet have a warshrine model, fans of the Razorgor at least have something to buy and use in their armies. I guess this begs the question, is a model no one seems to like better or worse than no model at all for a given unit type? It's a metaphysical conundrum!
Personally, I think the reactions here are a bit harsh. Perhaps it would be better to wait for good, clear, close-up pictures of the sprues and finished models before unleashing a torrent of negativity.
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Post by: BrookM
I'm not that surprised, most people are already on the anti-GW bandwagon, so they need little more to make up their minds.
Granted, Pumbaa looks a bit odd and off, the Minotaurs do have horrible legs, though some of the heads look good, the rank and mass troops, while sadly ranked up, do look good. My humble opinion of course.
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Post by: ghosty
TBH why are you all whining about this? its been happening for ages. the night goblin origonal plastics were beautifully detailed, and had real character in them. when the battle of skull pass class ones came out...i died inside...all character gone. Then the skaven came out. same thing happened.they lost most of the fur on their bodies, and the faces became awefully plain. Even worse, the skaven clanrats were designed to rank and file perfectly, losing their swarm aspect. IMO only army that managed to get better from their makeover, was the empire. and even then, most people complain about the lack of ruffles, and floppy hats....
Im thoroughly pissed off by the ungors (who suffer from what i call skaven clanarat syndrome) and tbh, a bit by the gors (the current sprues are amazing, and dont look crappy at all) but the minotaurs, i think look pretty nice actually. afterall when did everyone start expecting chaos to be perfect. a couple of overly muscled minotaurs are in order IMO. not to mention, they DONT seem to actually have tumoury feet. look closely, its jsut musculature deffinition IMO. ofc i could be mistaken, but its what i see. And the difference between the catachans (who looked out of place because everyone knew what a persons preportions should be like) and the minotaurs is that the minotaur is mythical and therefore can be a bit overly muscled. meh. im sure alot of talented painters here will get a hold of some of them, and everyone will begrudgingly agree the models look good, when painted like that.....
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Post by: Kingsley
I *like* the deformed, twisted look that these Beastmen have. Like ghosty said, that's kind of the way that monsters should look, especially ones warped by Chaos. Catachans are different because they're just supposed to be muscular humans, but this is a really good look for Beastmen IMO.
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Post by: Railguns
At the fist pic of the new line all together I thought "Bwahahaha, they can't be serious right? This stuff ranges from purely uninspired to outright awful. They can't be serious..."
Then I saw the Razorgor pic.
"Oh God they are serious."
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Post by: gorgon
The fleshy studio army scheme does the entire range no justice, if you ask me. Why they'd want to pick a scheme that exaggerates their traditionally poor musculature sculpting is beyond me. But then we're talking about the company that chose snow white and purple for their alien dinobug army. *shrug*
But color scheme aside, the Minotaurs are horrific sculpts, IMO. I mean, I like them less the more I study them. I actually prefer (hate less?) the Razorgor! At least some modifications might raise that model up to a D-minus...minus. I think.
How the h*ll do you fix the Minos? My first inclination would be to add/sculpt fur, but the models are so stinkin' thick that they'd end up looking like cows wearing fur coats.
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Post by: It
I bet the Razorgor is ridiculously good in the game. Better than Varghulf, Hydra, Hell pit abomination and everything in Daemons put together. I wonder what that means...  But most of the characters aren't half bad looking. At least.
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Post by: Da Boss
So, what does this release mean for me as a former BoC player? (Disclaimer: Based on the rumours, I would love to be proved wrong on any of the rules ideas I have and suprised by some sort of genius design idea. I don't expect to be, however)
-Lame cover art. The art and fluff in the old book was what made me start collecting Beastmen.
-No more shaggoth! He can sit around until I eventually snap and start WoC.
-No more mixed herds! Better go rebase all my ungor.
Laaaame. Mixed herds were cool and differentiated Beasts from the more organised armies.
-No more skirmishing apparently. Woot. So the other thing that made Beasts tactically interesting is gone. Fantastic. Now we have another close combat infantry army + stuff. I'm SO excited.
-Overpriced plastic Bestigor that look exactly like the underwhelming metals. Yay? I didn't buy the metals, I'm not buying these.
-A half decent Doombull. But I already have 2 of the Minotaur Lords that GW released yonks ago, and I think I like them better.
-God awful Minotaurs. They're not the world's worst miniatures by a long run, but I've come to expect much better of GW these days and I want better than that for the prices they're asking.
-Stupid pig monster. How big is that thing supposed to be? It doesn't look scary or cool at all, it looks stupid. No interest, don't care if it's better than a Bloodthirster on steroids.
-Recut Gors and Ungors that look slightly worse than before.
Hooray? I'm glad I'm not heavily invested in my beasts, is all I'll say.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Just spotted this on Randroid's blog, though it came from Herdstone before that: Ok, just had a quick 5 minute convo with my mate who's had a 5 minute read thorough the new book.
Herds have split , both ranked up but ungor get the option to skirmish
Unruly has gone
New rule for "herds"- when in combat take a leadership check.
If passed the unit gets hatred, if you roll insane courage you get hatred and frenzy. Didn't seem to be a downside if you failed.
Bestigor capture standards if they simply win a round of combat, get to add it (and any others they capture) to their combat res.
Minotaurs get frenzy if they win a round of combat, for every round they win they get a cumulative extra attack! Minos can only ever pursue or overrun 1d6 (they can now overrun)
Chariots STILL CORE
Centigor, still special not fast cav. No drunken every turn, instead roll a dice at the beginning of the game. Effects range from +2 I, to -1 movement to something else he couldn't remember.
New unit Harpies
New unit. Some kind of jabberwoky thing. Enemy units in 12" take Ld check, for every number they fail by take a wound no armour. seemed to be 5's across the board. If it takes a wound in combat enemy takes a S5 hit. 275 points.
Think he said about a gorgon thing, mainly 6's.
There was a normal giant, then there was a cyclops giant which was basically a giant with only Ld8, but armed with a stone thrower and every (enemy?) wizard within 24" has to pass a leadership check or not be able to cast spells.
I have no idea how to take this stuff, especially the new unit things at the end, but I like the gor and mino stuff at the start. Bestigors snatching standards is pretty cool, though I wonder if these cumulative effect things - mino blood ogry frenzy, bestigor pokemoning up standards - is going to work very well for vaguely squishy beasts ... Still groovy though, and hatred is always win, particularly on cheap cheap troops. - Salvage
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Post by: Zoned
The first round of pics aren't promising. However, I will reserve judgement when better pics/sprues are seen. I was planning of Great Weapon wielding Minotaurs anyway...haven't seen those yet.
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Post by: lasgunpacker
well, I guess there is REALLY no need to start a small army of Beasts now... nor should I think about buying any for skirmish type games. Well, saves me money I guess.
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Post by: hubcap
Well, I'll come out in the minority. I like the Minotaurs. I think they don't look like classical Greek Minotaurs on purpose - they are supposed to be weirdly mutated Chaos beasts. They remind me of the horrifying Belgian Blue cows, and I'm sure that's not an accident:
But unlike most people (apparently) I think that's a good thing.
The Razorgor OTOH - the best thing about it is the laugh I got from the Pumbaa picture.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Well, I'll come out in the minority. I like the Minotaurs. I think they don't look like classical Greek Minotaurs on purpose - they are supposed to be weirdly mutated Chaos beasts. They remind me of the horrifying Belgian Blue cows, and I'm sure that's not an accident
Spoken like a gentleman. I think you nailed that one. I don't see anything wrong with the new models. They are a bit different than the old ones, but that's deliberate I'm sure and not necessarily a bad thing. I think the big problem might be that this army has never been one of the more popular ones to begin with, at least not as a stand-alone since they split it from Warriors of Chaos and Daemons have become dominant in Fantasy Battle. Perhaps the army should be renamed from Beasts of Chaos to Unloved Orphans of Chaos? 
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Bestigores... or whatever the ranked up ones at the front are. They're... very plain. All in the same pose, all with the same horns. Very uninspired. They'll not doubt be the Goldswords of this release - Goldhorns maybe?
And the Minotaurs are just damned ugly. Hideous models with stupidly OTT musculature.
The Razorgore is just laughable.
Characters are very nice.
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Post by: Savnock
If Randroid's rumors are true, RIP skirmishing Beastmen. That would officially be the death of Germanic-style skirmishers, and of most of my interest in WHFB. That trend started when Alessio "I Play Brettonians and Skaven in big squares" Cavatore march-blocked skirmishers in this edition of the core rules. It's a whole realm of interesting ancient tactics thrown out the window. Crap.
Chariot horde armies are still in, though (again, only if these rumors are true). Hmmm. A chariot horde (8+) with a few Razorgors and Centigors could make things more interesting, now that Beastmen are another boring ranked army.
Well, I'll be buying up a few boxes of current Beastherds before the price doubles, playing a few trial games to see whether a chariot horde could be fun, and then probably scrapping my horde into a 40K conversion.
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Post by: Alpharius
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Bestigores... or whatever the ranked up ones at the front are. They're... very plain. All in the same pose, all with the same horns. Very uninspired. They'll not doubt be the Goldswords of this release - Goldhorns maybe?
And the Minotaurs are just damned ugly. Hideous models with stupidly OTT musculature.
The Razorgore is just laughable.
Characters are very nice.
Bestigolds?
Goldgors?
And someone should make a chariot for Nagash, pulled by two Razorgors...
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Post by: Chaoslord
Hmm, this stuff looks somewhat of a letdown after the very nice skaven kits. The core of the army (gors/ungors) were nice when they were released and still are. I also think that the mino-kit could be workable if one converts/covers the legs to look less slowed, as the upper bodies look decent. Razorgore looks awful, though.  + 
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Well I suppose if I do still decide to start BoC I can finally make a use for my FW Giant Spined Chaos Best as the Razorgore I dont imagine anyone having a problem with that 
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Post by: BrassScorpion
If Randroid's rumors are true, RIP skirmishing Beastmen
Perhaps more importantly, what is happening to the "Ambush" rule for Beastmen? If they lose that along with the skirmishing aspect of the army that changes all the fundamental character of how they operate in games.
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Post by: The Crippler
Re: the Pumbagore
Just remember. Hakuna Mattatah means no worries!
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Post by: LunaHound
Hmmm , need talented song / poem writters to make a BOC version of Hakuna Matata
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Post by: Mkvenner
I for one like the Minotaurs. I dont mind the loko at all. They look as though they were mutated. Not just birthed. I mean they look menacing and at the same time goofy. Lets face it not all terrifying things are pretty nor strikingly good looking lol. I think they are fine we just need to see more angles on them.
I love the Character Models. You can shoot me all you want lol.
The Gors are alright thats why we do conversions.
The Razorgor seems like a prank the sculptor did to make fun of what the art director wanted to be quite honest.
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Post by: Railguns
The Minotaurs look like they have flipper feet rather than hooves. It's embarrassing. The Bestigors look like they looted some Space Marine shoulder pads for armor. I just don't get the "monsters of the forest and unruly disorganized hordes" feel from this; more like mutant flipper-baby cows, goat-men that like to get in straight lines and less-like goats-but-still-fairly-ugly-men that also fancy organized ranks and being generic. The Razorgor has got to be some sort of joke, it's just that bad. When the last book came out I was hooked by the art and imagery of an army of beasts and monsters from the dark heart of the forest, but this stuff is just bland at best.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
The Minotaurs look like they have flipper feet rather than hooves
Minotaurs shouldn't necessarily have hooves, though GW puts their own spin on things the Minotaur as originally imagined by the ancient Greeks was a ferocious monster that appeared as a man (i.e., human body) with the head of a bull. A Minotaur with the head of a bull and the body of a bull is just a bull. If it's standing erect, then it's an anthropomorphic bull. In order to be a Minotaur, it should be at least partially human, like the early GW Minotaur Lord from circa 1989. That model had the body of a man with the head of a bull and the GW "spin" on it was the mutated reptilian dragon-like claw hand.
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Post by: Task and Purpose
I think the biggest problem with the Minotaurs is they dont match any of the previous miniatures or models in the range and arent good enough on their own to really capture your interest or imagination. They strike me as a failure on the scale of Rat Ogres and Kroxigor. While everone with a Beasts army looks over at Tomb Kings Ushabti with envy.
I honestly think the closest "Beasts" thing to the minotaurs is the existing Dragon Ogres. Same really two really cool opportunities missed.
Looks like Ill be keeping my metal Khorne and Pestigors as this is the first time the reimagined plastics have really failed to overcome the metals.
As far as the minotaurs I wonder if we can petition FW to do some legs for them as part of their new FB wing. IMO legs are the huge failure. Its not that they arent dog-legged its that they arent even human looking. They just look bad. There is nothing particularly anatomical to justify them looking that way. Not even the Belgian blue reference.
Im super bummed. I really think this might be the biggest relaunch failure yet.
If you own beasts already what models will you buy? If you dont already own the Army what is inspireing enough for you to start? Id say not much.
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Post by: Chaoslord
Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:If you own beasts already what models will you buy? If you dont already own the Army what is inspireing enough for you to start? Id say not much.
I have to agree with the above. The rules better be awesome if GW hopes to get people hooked to BoC.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Mkvenner wrote:I mean they look menacing and at the same time goofy.
yeah.... I am not really into having a goofy army. That's why I chose to do beastmen in the first place.
If the Razorgor and minotaurs were part of a wide release involving lots of new options, then they could be just the part of the army that we don't buy because the models suck. But the real problem is that it appears that lots of options (dragon ogres and chaos trolls, which actually look good compared to the minotaurs) have been removed with few options being added to replace them. And those new options have uninspiring models. So without extensive converting or proxying, most Beastman armies are going to be that much more uninspiring.
Those minotaurs and especially that razorgor are just plain bad. Worse than bad. If they were a release by one of these two-bit sculpting companies that works out of someone's basement on a shoestring budget, they'd be bad. Coming from the largest company in the business (a company so big, they have the gall to claim it's the " GW hobby", not the "miniatures hobby"), it's downright embarassing. Someone should be humiliated over this. Someone should lose their job over this. Maybe not the sculptor, but definitely whoever gave them the green light for production.
But maybe this is all my fault. Maybe I'm just not thinking of things correctly. Because when I think of the Beasts of Chaos, I think of society's wretched outcast mutants cavorting with reckless abandon around pyres in the dark places where no mortal goes. I think of creatures living off of whatever scraps they can steal, worshipping dark, chthonic gods from older times whose names have even been forgotten even by the men who worship Chaos, and forging alliances with monsters that would as soon kill them as march to war with them. You could almost pity these creatures, if it weren't for how every full moon they ride through your village and murder and rape not for money, not for slaves, not for political power, but because you have the audacity to live in a house and read.
When I should have been thinking of them the way GW apparently does: muscled barnyard animals.
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Post by: fellblade
Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:
If you own beasts already what models will you buy?
Well, from the look of that picture lo those many pages ago:
Gors are the same models. Exactly. Do not need.
New ungors now have stupidly-thick spears. Do not want.
New bestigors- big, awkwardly posed models with goofy exaggerated weapons. Do not want or need; will stick with my old metals.
New minotaurs = fail. Do not need; would be embarassed to own.
New heroes = mostly same as the old heroes, and the new one looks like the love child of a Grey Seer & the Dark Emissary. Do not need.
Flying infantry, maybe. But I saw no pics of the rumored gorgoyles.
Razorgor... no. Just... no. I thought it was unpossible to make a boar-based miniature sillier than the O&G piggiephants, and I am tryly saddened to be proven wrong. If I feel the need for a razorgor in my army (and it is looking more and more doubtful that I will bother to field a BoC army EVAR AGIN!), I will use a rhinox as a proxy.
What has happened to my Dragon Ogres? Where are my Chaos Trolls? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. {A rhetorical question is one that is asked for the purposes of irony. [So please don't bother to tell me that DO have been moved to the WoC army for some unfathomable reason; I already know.]})
Rules rumors: aack.
After skirmish got the nerf in 7th, I was worried that my BoC army would be crippled. Happily this proved not to be the case. But I haven't seen any mention of a rule that allows my formed blocks of Gors to move through the woods.
I want that.
One of the things I loved... no, the thing I loved most about BoC was that they were totally different in playstyle from all the other warhammer armies. I fear that will be lost. I'm just not seeing what the Beasts will offer that other armies don't already do better. If I want to play ranked infantry, I have Empire and Dwarfs. If I want to play skirmishy points-denial, I have Dark Elves. Ambush? The ambush rule will need a drastic re-write; units that come on far out of position will never get into combat. Remember, in 6th ed., they couldn't be march-blocked.
[RANT] I've been getting more and more disenchanted with Warhammer. I feel that 7th edition was unecessary. There are only two changes that I think are improvements, surrounded by a lot of tinkering that didn't fix any of the major problems (and in fact created new problems). I have sold off my Tomb Kings, my Dogs of War, my Orcs and Goblins, and my Vampire Counts. I'm looking for a buyer for my Daemons, my Warriors of Chaos, and my Bretonnians. I never thought I would be considering adding my beloved Beasts to that list, but... golly. [END_RANT]
Rumorz is rumorz, no sense in getting upset yet. Only a few days to go before my FLGS gets their promo copy of the army book.
Will it be tears? Or cake?
[RERANT] Jabber-sclyth? Cy-gor? What's with the stupid names, anyhow? [END_RERANT]
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Post by: Minsc
Beasts: Crappy models with pendulum-shifting rules.
I am saddened by the loss of raiders. With Skaven, I could kinda understand the forcing of Night Runners into ranks: You assume they're less "ranked", and more a mob where someone had the misfortune of being made into other rat's meatshields.
But for Beastmen... beastmen were a raider force that hit-and-run during ambushes and the like. How does a predominantly rank-and-file army represent that? Does this mean GW now thinks they can get away with changing army canon on a whim so as to get more models to sell?
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Post by: Task and Purpose
Heres to waiting to hear there is one broken magic item or spell that makes the beasts Uber. I like many others will lament their totally different play style. Cant wait for my beasts to get smashed wit stone throwers!
...walks away with hands in pockets kicking rocks.
This reminds me of when Ralphy doesnt get his BBgun. Shi**y.
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Post by: Railguns
Minsc wrote:Beasts: Crappy models with pendulum-shifting rules.
I am saddened by the loss of raiders. With Skaven, I could kinda understand the forcing of Night Runners into ranks: You assume they're less "ranked", and more a mob where someone had the misfortune of being made into other rat's meatshields.
But for Beastmen... beastmen were a raider force that hit-and-run during ambushes and the like. How does a predominantly rank-and-file army represent that? Does this mean GW now thinks they can get away with changing army canon on a whim so as to get more models to sell?
Dude this happens pretty much every army book ever.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
The problem with GW for the last 2 years at least is that with the possible exception of SMs in 40k everytime the redo a codex/armybook they feel the need to completely change the way it plays, the effectiveness of every unit and its special rules.
WHFB and 40k are both mature games, with many editions. At this stage they should be striking for balance both within the list and vs other lists (of course you will always have a nemisis army that you struggle against) NOT rubbish like the hellpit abomination or even worse, the entire daemon codex.
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Post by: reds8n
The Ungors with bows is a ncie addition I think..personally I think they look better with the bows than with the spears and an actual bit of long range hurtiness is handy. With them.. I think ..still being skirmishers they'll be awkward to shoot back at as well.
I am 98% certain there is no Shaggoth/sor dragon ogres either, this is being confirmed as people see the finsihed book. Mr. Ravik had the following to say on Herdstone
Got to read it myself as well.
Gorgon ( i think it was) looks like a giant minotaur, and eats people
Cygor is a cyclops giant-gor that gets rerolls to hit against undead, daemons (I think) and things with ward saves. Tragically WS2. Stone Thrower.
Jabbersclyth is the jabberwocky thing. Flying, poison, terror, largetarget, 12" tounge attack, strength 5
Doombulls have D3 impact hits, normal minos have 1 each. Each round of combat won gives minos an extra frenzy attack for that combat (lost if combat ends or you lose a round).
Beastlord allows a reroll on the beastial roll when fighting against humans (Empire and Bretonians) which basically means it's likely the unit will get what is effectively eternal hatred. Something to do with insane courage adding in Frenzy to the unit he's with with that in-combat-roll thing
Great Bray Shaman are T5.
The Wild Lore has a spell that summons either a Jabber, Giant, Cygor or Gorgon from a board edge of your choice. Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
I agree that ungors with bows makes sense, it's very 'woodsie'.
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Post by: Sidstyler
@The razorgor:
...WOW...that's so amazingly bad. It reminds me of the warhounds, which I really hated. I didn't think they could possibly do worse than that when it comes to beasts, but WOW, they did. So much worse.
feth that, they want me to pay money for that gak? LMAO
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Post by: NAVARRO
reds8n wrote: The Ungors with bows is a ncie addition I think..personally I think they look better with the bows than with the spears and an actual bit of long range hurtiness is handy. With them.. I think ..still being skirmishers they'll be awkward to shoot back at as well.
I am 98% certain there is no Shaggoth/sor dragon ogres either, this is being confirmed as people see the finsihed book. Mr. Ravik had the following to say on Herdstone
So the answer to resculpting the dated dragon ogres is just trash it all? along with one of the best box sets the shaggoth.
Thats just sad.
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Post by: reds8n
I gather at least some of the thinking is that the areas the Dragon Ogres live in -- the mountains and the edges of the chaos wastes and so forth -- isn't quite the same areas as the armies this book is suppoed to be about, which is the Beastmen who dwell in the forests. Yes..I know... chariots, giants and so forth.. don't shoot the messenger. I don;t quite agree with this reasoning... it strikes me as no more unrealistic that the beastmen have a dragonogre ally than the fact that SPECIAL CHARACTER X leads 2,345 armies at the same time and fights in every small skirmish.
I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Sidstyler wrote:feth that, they want me to pay money for that gak? LMAO
They want you to pay a premium. Because their quality is the "best".
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Post by: Zad Fnark
reds8n wrote: I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.
+1
I'll be happy when the entire "old" line of ogre type models is purged from the inventory. Ditto for the similarly done minotaurs.
The chaos orgre art in the WOC book make me worry that they'll revert...
ZF-
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Thanks for moar rumors Red. Impact hits for minos was near the top of my list of changes-that-just-make-too-much-sense, glad to see they (theoretically) made it.
The cygor is bizarrely specific against Tier 0 & 1 armies, but ah well. I'm wondering whether the gorgon (straight 6's, ground-based) or the jabber (straight 5's, flying, banshee-esque shooting, hugely expensive) will become the spammed rare monster ...
- Salvage
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Post by: reds8n
I wonder if impact hits for infantry of a certain size might become a default rule in 8th edition.
What do they mean by "RIP" here ? Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.
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Post by: Terje-Tubby
BrassScorpion wrote:Hope the minotaurs get hooves not feet.
Minotaurs are based on the monster of classical Greek mythology, Asterius, called the Minotaur, slain by Theseus. That Minotaur was a man with the head of a bull. Man with the head of a bull = Minotaur. Bull with the head of a bull = bull.
Bull with the head of a man = messed up 
Anyways, can`t wait. Ive always WANTED to love the minotaurs because the idea is so neat, but now it may actually be possible
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Post by: Boss Salvage
RiP = "Remains in Play" (which have a series of limitations in fantasy, such as being able to be dispelled, ending if the caster attempts a new spell, etc) reds8n wrote:What do they mean by "RIP" here ? Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.
I think s/he's saying that you don't actually 'get' the monster free, as the death of the caster removes the summoned beast as well - and hurting the monster makes the caster's death more imminent (though great brays are apparently T5, so meh). Which is all pretty far from RiP and pretty impressive, from a game and marketing stand point  ... - Salvage
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Post by: reds8n
Cheers fella. I can see how that could be quite handy. Be quite cool to have the beast shaman and the opposing mage striving to control or negate the summoned beastie.
...well...as cool as rolling several D6 gets anyway.
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Post by: Olaf the Hairy
the minatours are awful.
ranked up Beastmen are going to play much the same as Orcs & Goblins.
Looks like I wasted the effort of doing nice bases for my ungors, at least I only did one unit so far. Last time this happened my lazynes saved me, they changed chaos thugs from 25mm bases to 20mm (I had 80 of them all based), then they disapeared from the game all together, then they returned as marauders back on 25mm bases. Fortunatly I had neither re-based them or sold them at a loss in the mean time.
I thought the old bestigors were to uniform especialy in pose although I liked the models, the new unit looks like a synchronised chopping team
I really miss being able to field an army with mortals, daemons and beasts. I bought and painted units specificaly to allow me to field a mixed army for each chaos god. It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
As much as I'd love to see new Dragon Ogre models... I hope if they ever do redo them its not the same guy who sculpted those minos.... Oh looks bloated fat chaos ogres with uneccessary muscles... awsome!
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Post by: Task and Purpose
I dont think anyone here is lamenting the loss of the Dragon Ogres alone.
Its the combination of give and take feeling more like a take and take.
No DragonOs and nothing cool to replace them. I guess Beasts will still come in from the table edges but just be ranked? Im open to seeing if it really matters. May make my movment phase faster. Im just trying to find a bright side.
Does anyone know if the Centigors are badass? Are there going to be lots of Centigors and Chariots with need for only one or two blocks?
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Post by: Minsc
Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.
It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"
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Post by: LunaHound
Minsc wrote:Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.
It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"
No because if people replied "no they are ugly"
GW might say something like " guess who have the art degree here? , us! so what we think looks good you have to agree! "
Yes that was supposed to be funny , but you'll be surprised how often similar situation pops up like that.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
LunaHound wrote:Minsc wrote:Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.
It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"
No because if people replied "no they are ugly" GW might say something like " guess who have the art degree here? , us! so what we think looks good you have to agree! " Yes that was supposed to be funny , but you'll be surprised how often similar situation pops up like that.
Common sense is more powerful then a degree... unless its a common sense degree Although... they would totally do something like that
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Post by: Mkvenner
Zad Fnark wrote:reds8n wrote: I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.
+1
I'll be happy when the entire "old" line of ogre type models is purged from the inventory. Ditto for the similarly done minotaurs.
The chaos orgre art in the WOC book make me worry that they'll revert...
ZF-
To be honest if you dont like the Minotaur models than make your own Dragon Ogres that can fit on the base size they use. I have seen some nift conversions made from plastic cold ones and Ogre Bulls. Its also somewhat cheaper. I know that many people proxy models with their own idea. Hell I am making a sentinel into an AMP suit from Avatar to sue as Ogryns in my IG army because I dont like the profiel for Sentinels.
On Beastmen release:
So I mean yeah the Razorgor is abysmal. I dont know how someone can say that is good or worthy of production but I am pretty sure those Minotuars can be made into something nice. AS for the Bestigors, its another GReatsworsd style blunder in my opinion. They had some cool artwork and since they got rid of marks they made them look like an agry mob of mountain goats hellbent on eating the Daemons of Chaos army book.
Overall yeah this release is def a miss in terms of what they could have done or rather what they SHOULD have done, which was to push them back and redo those models they produced. In terms of the characters I like them. I like the minotaurs. (shoot me, I dare you) but thee rest of the stuff looks like it was rushed because they "Have the power and resources to make so many releases in 2010".
I hope they don't do this to me beloved Blood Angels. IF they get model treatment like this there will be some killing....with fire.
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Post by: BossGlefang
So wait, Beastmen are not going to be a skirmishing army? That is what made them cool, plus it made them good rivals for Wood Elves, which is why I was considering starting them. Some clarification if someone would be so kind.
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Post by: reds8n
More info, thanks to Mr. Nethrag from Herdstone
Marks are gone.
Gifts are 1 per army.
QUOTE
What units get the beastial roll?
pretty sure it was only gor and bestigor type stuff (i.e. not the minos or razorgors)
Doombull doesn't seem to make minos core (there maybe a special character that does, I don't know)
Minos are S5 basic (plus the other rules we've mentioned) and have recieved a 15 point price hike, so potential there for lots of S7 or hand weapons for extra attacks at S5. Seem decent.
Razorgor, are a unit like minos. M7 T5 4A, S5 with +1S on the charge. same cost as the new minos. Seem decent.
Harpies are special......bugger....
Bestigor are same stat line, no price change and are now special.....I honestly can't understand that move at all. Seems ridiculous that they have actually made bestigor worse than before?!?! I really hope my mate has missed something but I don't believe he has. (maybe like an awesome banner because them and the BSB are the only ones capable of taking a magic banner)
The core chariots still have a gor and a bestigor on them.
Ambush now is quite different.
To ambush a unit you must have an "equivalent" unit deployed on the board. Have no idea what that means for joined characters etc.
Can ambush from turn one.
No leadership check required, it now works as such --> Roll a dice for the unit ambushing. On a 1, your opponent gets to place it any board edge. 2-3 it doesn't turn up that turn, 4 turns up on the left flank, 5 turns up on the right flank, 6 you get to choose a table edge. Sounds pretty crap to me.
Centigor massive price hike, are now just classed as normal cav, but are still in light armour, don't seem to be any different otherwise except for the drunken changing to roll a dice at the beginning of the game.1-2, +2I, 3-4 -1M but a reroll on the leadership check to gain hatred once in combat, 5-6 stubborn.
Nothing like what I was hoping for to be honest.
5 rare choices. All seem pretty useful.
Giant and spawn stay the same it seemed.
3 more all are the same points and are a bit more expensive than an upgraded helpit abomination. None have any saving throw or regen etc.
Cyclops giant thing. Anti magic in a basket, not only does every wizard within 24"? need to pass a leadership check to cast spell that turn, any they fail to meet the casting value of, count as miscasts?!?! Seems insane to me.
Has a stonethrower that it can move (not march) and shoot with.
Has a standard attack profile (so not a table like a giant) which is 6 S6. T5 5W.
Jabberwocky thing. that 12" leadership check or suffer wounds for how much you fail by is for every unit within 12" but it does need to have los to the jabber thing (think its that way round rather than the jabber needing los to it, but could be wrong). again T5 5W.
Other big thing.
T6 6A S6 killing blow. Can instead of attacking do a single attack that killing blows on a 4+. If it makes a killing blow then it regains d3 wounds.
A few of the better gifts/items.
gift 20points, +1A
gift 15pts, 5+ scaly skin
this one seems pretty insane. 25pts. bound one use only power level 5. All enemy arcane items within 18" are destroyed. The bearer of each item that is destroyed takes d6S4 hits.......ouch to say the least.
Other items that he could remember
GW, reroll missed hits, 40 points
2 handed weapon, +1d3 attacks, if 6 has rolled ignore armour.
however there didn't seem to be ANY ward saves except a 2+ ward against flaming attacks (which also gave the unit a 4+ ward against flaming). There was a light armour which gave regen for 50 points. (obvious combo with those two assuming one's a talisman and ones an armour, you can bet your life it'll be more expensive than a simple 4+ ward which it basically is).
and more from Mr. Revik
No Daemon Prince at all.
No marks what so ever, as already mentioned.
Wargors are T5, yes that's a wargor - the hero one. (his stats being 553452438)
Doombull - M6, WS6, BSwhocares?, S6, T5, W5, I5, A5, Ld8, Frenzy, Fear, Bloodgreed (+1 Frenzy if win), D3 Impact hits, and unit gets frenzy if the doombull is (starts frenzied) but doesnt use primal fury
Mutations! - +1 init (cheap), 5+ scaly skin (cheap), armour piercing (cheap), model and unit are stubborn (pricey, but oh so worth it)
4 pages of Items
Minotaurs at mid 50's points wise, same stats as before but 1 less initiative. Option for shields and they do cause 1 impact hit with no min. distance.
Harpies can scout for additional points! (woo)
Magic - Lore of the Wild (7 spells!) 0-6 like the old Tzeentch
0- Bestial Surge - 7+ movement spell, doesn't make you charge though, might be faq'd
1- Viletide - 7+ 5d6 S1 24" magic missles
2 - Devolve, 9+, enemy units within 12" take ld, amount failed = # of wounds with no AS
3 - bray-scream, 10+, one character within 12" makes a breath weapon attack at s3 with no AS (I like this one)
4 - Traitor-kin, 10+, all enemy models within 12" riding a mount of any kind suffer number of attacks = mounts attacks w/ same S. same for monsters & handlers and chariots. no AS bonus for mounted or barding, etc. (Hello Hydras! biggrin.gif )
5 - mantle of ghorok, 13+, friendly character within 6", model gains +d6 S and +d6 S (max 10), if 1 or more 6's rolled, model suffers a wound with no saves of any kind (Interesting one, and can be potentially devastating)
6 - Savage dominion, 16+, 'summon' a giant, gorghon or jabberslythe, place at any point on table edge and move as if returning from pursuing an enemy off the table
Cenitgors can be core from the Warhoof guy (mid 100pts) (who looks bloody terrible IMO), has a Unicorn Helmet, hates Welves and MR2.
Wargors are cheaper than current beastlords by 10pts. Beast lords are around 1 MoN (current book price) more expensive, Doombulls are similarly increased in price.
Gors are same price, however the sheild/AHW costs 1 point.
Unors are 1 point more and come with shield, option for spears. Option for cheap SC upgrade.
Ungor raiders are BS3 and armed with Shortbows, 50% more expensive than currently.
All 3 types can ambush, these are the only ones that can, this includes characters.
That Bestial Roll thing I mentioned before is called Primal Fury, though someone may have covered that
There's a pricey killing blow item - (most of yer points) killing blow plus when the character kills a character in a challenge, they become unbreakable and cause terror. This carries onto whatever unit the character was with.
Edit - All yer points item - Their LD is used for your S
We've got that Bonecrusher mace back, this time Stonecrusher, +3S and not a GW. S10 vs Steamtanks, Chariots, Warshrines, Corpse Cart etc.
Nangelder, cause terror and models wounded by this get -1 ld per wound suffered
Hunting spear, spear in cc, single bolt from bolt thrower, may shoot after moving (not marched) and may S&S
Axes of khorgor, two hands, +1A, re-roll missed to hit in cc (Cheaper this time)
Two handed weapon, +d3 attacks and if a 6 is rolled, they ignore armour - rolled at start of combat, until end of phase
Brass cleaver, single bonus attack against each model in btb
Everbleed, every time suffer a wound, on a 6, model suffers another wound with no saves of any kind and keep rolling as long as you keep rolling 6's
Enchanted items -
Shard of the herdstone, place a herstone marker in your deployment zone at beginning, after forces are deployed - all bray-shamans within 6" at start of magic generate 1 extra power dice
Horn of the great hunt (beastlord/wargor), bound level 3, counts a Bestial surge but with a range of 36" - Sweet!
Horn of the first beast (beastlord/wargor), all beastmen within 36" can re-roll failed primal fury
Stone of spite, bound level 5, every arcane item within 18" explodes, causing d6 s4 hits against bearer per item, items are gone. Costs the same as a dispel scroll, one per army.
No more lores.
Gors are LD 7 now.
Can Ambush on turn 1 if lucky.
You need the same unit size and type for a unit to ambush. Then in the remaining moves phases each turn roll a d6
1 - Lose scent, opponent gets to choose table edge
2-3 Roll again next turn
4 - Beasts left side
5 - Beasts right side
6 - Beasts table edge of choice
Drunk is different too
1 roll at start of game
1-2 Sober! +2 Init
3-4 - hangover from hell! re-roll Primal Fury, -1 M
5-6 Drunken Bravado - Stubborn
No LOS needed for jabber- doesn't affect ITP
Giant is as WOC one, no marks
Malagor SC is a flying LV 4 Shaman, gets +1 to cast (cumulative) for each spell if not dispelled for that turn, units within 6" get frenzied from primal fury if rolling a double and passing
No ward save items bar the Talisman!!
Banner of rust . All units (F or F)range! 6 inches. hero level items allowance price, doesn't affect scaly saves,count armour 1 worse than it is, units in B2B count it 2 worse
Chariots are true core. Cheaper by 5, S4 tuskers but no charge bonus, but potential hatred.
Razor chariots are 65 points more, but mental STW 5's, 1 Razorgor 4A S5, +1 S on charge, 4+Sv
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Post by: LunaHound
Does that mean we'll get new charriots?
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Post by: His Master's Voice
A repackaged Tuskgor chariot. Maybe. The Razgor one probably won't get a model until the next wave, if then.
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Post by: reds8n
LunaHound wrote:Does that mean we'll get new charriots?
Not yet. Migt indeed see a repackaged or reboxed current one but that's all.
.. for the moment.
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Post by: Da Boss
Those rules rumours look TERRIBLE!
Opponent gets to place them on a 1? Argh!
All enthusiasm for this release is now gone.
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Post by: The Crippler
I like that magic list. The casting costs seem a bit high, but, I like the spells.
Stone of Spite seems to be a must have item. Ambush seems to be completely unreliable.
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Post by: reds8n
The Crippler wrote:I like that magic list. The casting costs seem a bit high, but, I like the spells.
Stone of Spite seems to be a must have item. Ambush seems to be completely unreliable.
Those casting costs do seem high don't they...
...hmm... another nod towards 8th edition I reckon.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Those rumors are cool by me. Minos are the only old unit that really got markedly better - there's hope for the primal fury thing - but the monsters are neat and even O_O, though ultra expensive. All those items, I don't even know what to think. Like the spell lore, I'm guessing everything costs a lot but has some intense effects ...
So yea, not sure what to think of all this. I suppose we'll see chariot and skirmishing ungor core, a token gor unit or two, then some tough choices for special (2 minos, 1 harpies, 1 razors / razor chariot?) and 1 of the insane-o new monsters. Cyclops most likely for the anti-magic & move-and-fire thrower (wtf!), though gorgon is pretty tanky and the jabber, if it weren't somewhat pointless against ItP, is neat. Characters I dunno! If you want magic, it sounds like you'll need to go BIG to get any casts off, but the doombull sounds tasty and 4 pages of items should make for some interesting (T5) wargor builds.
But what, beasts have gone from low-tech skirmishing brute army with some monstrous friends, to I dunno, monsters with some smaller friends carrying around anti-top tier gimmicks? Or something?
- Salvage
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Depending on the price of those items, having both the Horn and the Bray-Staff, both granting the movement spell could be good. Wonder if it affects only small guys or do chariots and/or big stuff also qualify.
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Post by: LunaHound
reds8n wrote:LunaHound wrote:Does that mean we'll get new charriots?
Not yet. Migt indeed see a repackaged or reboxed current one but that's all.
.. for the moment.
Are there are other units going up in price change other than Gor / Ungor / Bestigor ?
Might as well to grab a chariot now if its going to be the same model wise in case they decide to raise the price next month o_o
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Post by: reds8n
Hmm... I'm afraid I'm not quite sure yet. I don't think so as, from what seems to be available in the book, I don't think there are other units around really .. ...
You'd be alright buying the chariots now anyway I reckon, if I hear or get anything definitive about X/Y/Z going up I'll post it here AND Pm you so you won't miss it.
NO minotars as core option though it seems, unless that rule is hidden somewhere.. and it doesn't seem like it is.
.. it's like they don't want to sell the new kits almost.  
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Post by: Savnock
Man, am I gonna feel like a jerk fielding 8+ chariots... but it looks like the only viable build other than a Monster Mash (that will totally get nerfed by 8th core rules).
Damnit, ranked Gors sucks. And _special_ section Bestigors?!? Gimme a break. Lame.
The Cyclops thing plus chariots could be interesting, though.
And the new lores look like they will complement a chariot horde well too.
Too bad the herdstone is in your deployment zone, and thus pretty useless for the lore of the Wild. Automatically Appended Next Post: BossGlefang wrote:So wait, Beastmen are not going to be a skirmishing army? That is what made them cool, plus it made them good rivals for Wood Elves, which is why I was considering starting them. Some clarification if someone would be so kind.
Clarification: The only Beasts which will be able to chase down Wood Elves (by skirmishing) are the crappiest ones, Ungor. Those Ungor will be no match for the Wood Elves, even basic Glade Guardians, in either CC or shooting matches.
Also, only Gors and Ungors now Ambush (Gors and Ungors, no more hounds, which blows goats). That makes catching far-off shooty units even less likely.
Me, I'm going for chariots and big bullies.
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Post by: Alpharius
Savnock wrote:Man, am I gonna feel like a jerk fielding 8+ chariots... but it looks like the only viable build other than a Monster Mash (that will totally get nerfed by 8th core rules).
Wait!
Get nerfed by 8th edition rules how?
I must have missed those rumors... What are they?
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Post by: Savnock
No rumors, it's just that the current herohammer and big-solo-nasties-being-overpowered trend is likely to be redressed by a swing in favor of blocks of low-power troops. That is, if the new edition addresses overall game balance. Which it may not, but seems most likely. Idle speculation, but the sort that will hopefully prevent _another_ several years of a nicely-finished BoC army staying in the bin due to edition-change screwing.
On the good side, razorgor chariots with a few shamen could be an effective flanking force. 5 wounds? Yes please!
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Post by: Kanluwen
I actually like them.
RAWR! We is mutants! Rawr!
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Post by: ghosty
see they look really nice now >.>
you cans ee theyll be fun to paint
though razorgor still looks silly Automatically Appended Next Post: whos getting a horrible feeling that theyre infact going to collect beastmen regardless of the fact that they have a lizardman army they want to do, a demons of chaos500 point border patrol to paint AND 2000 points of nids to do......hmm? no? just me? oh well im totally picking up some of the current beastmen regiemeents whilst i still have a chance
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Post by: nels1031
Ya, they were growing on me and this pic sold it. Although the heads annoy me more then the legs, but thats what some green stuff and spiky bits are for. I'm personally looking forward to this release now.
Even the Razorgor has grown on me, as picturing that pulling a Beastman Lord or hero into battle on a chariot will be awesome.
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Post by: Alpharius
Whoa!
So much for a better picture making them look better.
A shame really, and a very, very big missed opportunity.
I think that Beasts aren't going to sell well at all...
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Post by: Grimhowl
on their Advanced Orders page you can see pictures of the sprues for the Minotaurs and those don't look as bad except for maybe the heads. With a darker skin tone that was lest of a contrast with the color of the fur patches they could probably look fine.
Not an OMG awesome set but not as bad as the studio paint jobs are making them appear, kind of like what happened with the plastic ogres and the horrible greenish skin tone they gave them.
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Post by: Mekboy
£25 of 10 bestigor.
Oh dear. From henceforth, they shall be known as Costigor.
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Post by: Flashman
Mekboy wrote:£25 of 10 bestigor.
Oh dear. From henceforth, they shall be known as Costigor.
I was going to say Goldhoofs, but I think you win.
Anyway, excuse me whilst I adopt a smug look for choosing Skaven, because it appears beastmen have been well and truly on once again.
Models are over expensive, sculpting is awful in a lot of cases and rules aren't particularly great either.
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Post by: Savnock
Yeah, those are pretty bad. But the paintjob may be to blame for some of it: a lower-contrast definition might make them look less like lumps of mud or tumors and more like muscles.
The hero on the left looks better, though.
Avatars of War kicks GW's ass yet again:
http://arena-deathmatch.com/onlineshop/onlineshop.php
And for those reviling the razorgor, consider replacing it with the Netherhound, at the bottom right of the linked page.
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Post by: reds8n
Hmm...
Razorgor are nightmarish to behold.
... this stuff just writes itself sometimes eh ?
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Post by: Sageheart
i actually like the Razorgor. it looks silly which is true, but i think it works well with the rest of the models, and acts as a good center piece for the army.
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Post by: Alpharius
Sageheart wrote:i actually like the Razorgor. it looks silly which is true, but i think it works well with the rest of the models, and acts as a good center piece for the army.
\
Jervis, is that you?
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Post by: Teek
Wow, those Minos really look heinous... what a shame.
Need Some of Dakka's finest to give them a better lick of paint, see if they can't breathe better life into those sculpts.
Doombull is pretty slick, though I fear that's just because most of the elephantiasis is covered with armor plates.
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Post by: JD21290
What a let-down.
New models all look like pure gak.
One thing i do find funny though.
click the doombull and it pops up at £25.
It then shows the old one next to it, for £15 lol.
Just goes to show price hikes.
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Post by: Flashman
Sageheart wrote:i actually like the Razorgor. it looks silly which is true, but i think it works well with the rest of the models...
...only because the other models are just as awful
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Savnock wrote:Yeah, those are pretty bad. But the paintjob may be to blame for some of it: a lower-contrast definition might make them look less like lumps of mud or tumors and more like muscles.
The hero on the left looks better, though.
Avatars of War kicks GW's ass yet again:
http://arena-deathmatch.com/onlineshop/onlineshop.php
And for those reviling the razorgor, consider replacing it with the Netherhound, at the bottom right of the linked page.
How does GW fail so bad at this? Not exactly the most complicated concept. Fur, muscles, Horns, and a freaking cow head...
I am linking the Beast man from there, because it is awesome.
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Post by: Thorgut
That's the ugliest refreshed line of models I've seen from GW.
I don't like the prices either, but that's another matter.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Sageheart wrote:i actually like the Razorgor. it looks silly which is true, but i think it works well with the rest of the models, and acts as a good center piece for the army.
NO NO NO, a centre piece is ment to be awe inspiring, not a piece of gak that you laugh at for 15 minutes, it looks terrible, GW showed that they can do good animals, the chaos hounds, so why are they making these
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Post by: Railguns
At least the Minotaur Lord is fairly well done, though the hoof-flippers still hurt the sculpt for me.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
ghosty wrote:see they look really nice now >.>
I disagree. I think they look just as gak as before, but they're trying to disguise it by photographing them from an angle that is confusing to the eye. At such a low angle their bodies are in shadow and look like a bubbly wall of flesh. I really don't think there is any possible way to save those models. The best anyone who buys them can hope for is to make them "not as bad as the studio team did".
Teek wrote:Doombull is pretty slick, though I fear that's just because most of the elephantiasis is covered with armor plates.
Just what I was thinking!
I just looked at the GW advance orders page, and did a face-palm. It wasn't enough to make the razorgor look ridiculous. They had to model it in such a strange, unnatural pose, that it looks like it's in the middle of tripping over its front foot, about to fall flat on it's clown-face. It's like someone in management said to the sculptor (I'll call him Mr. Pants) "Mr. Pants, I want you to make a model that will embarass our players. We're going to call it a thing of terror, but I want you to make it look both comical and inept. Can you do that?" And then Mr. Pants soiled himself and began eating his two-part epoxy putty.
I kinda like Ghorros Warhoof. Stupid name, but there's a certain restraint being shown there that is entirely absent from the rest of the line. If I weren't going for a completely different look for my centigors (and if they weren't apparently getting nerfed) I'd be interested in him.
I think Malagor is a salvageable model, too. I don't normally like my minis covered in trinkets and bobs but on him it works. And I like the Brettonian bits on his staff, but that torso trophy has got to go. That's just sily.
Are the Jabberwocky and cyclops not getting models? Normally I'd be disappointed, but given what's come out of the studio in the monster department lately I'd say it's a relief. It would be nice to know what base/size to make our conversions though.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Minotaurs are horrific. The Bestigors are too static and too expensive (Costigors - better than Goldhorns). The Razorgore is just... wow... that's an awful model. And 13 piece no less - have fun when all those spikes keep breaking off.
The characters are nice. I like the Doom Bull and the Dark Omen guy.
6829
Post by: Cheese Elemental
I rather like the new models, actually. This is Chaos we're talking about, not simple anthromorphic animals. They're meant to look deformed.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
But it's not Chaos any more. It's just 'Beastmen'. They've taken the Chaos out of Beasts of Chaos, much like they took the Chaos out of Chaos Space Marines.
Who's writing this army book, BTW?
123
Post by: Alpharius
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Minotaurs are horrific. The Bestigors are too static and too expensive (Costigors - better than Goldhorns). The Razorgore is just... wow... that's an awful model. And 13 piece no less - have fun when all those spikes keep breaking off.
The characters are nice. I like the Doom Bull and the Dark Omen guy.
Costigors?
That's OK, but I prefer the previously mentioned Bestigolds, in keeping with the earlier theme set with the Goldswords.
So, maybe then Goldgors?
Either way, please everyone, vote with your wallets on these 'things', or we'll never see the end of these insane pricing schemes!
735
Post by: JOHIRA
Cheese Elemental wrote: This is Chaos we're talking about, not simple anthromorphic animals. They're meant to look deformed.
Yes, but I prefer deformed as is "a thing out of my nightmares", not deformed as in "just came out of a cancer ward". The Chaos models from other lines get to look deformed without looking like they need a walker to get to the battlefield. Why can't beastment get the same treatment?
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
What really pisses me off is the Malagor model.
The model looks nice, but the fluff. So what, Moghur all of a sudden just is forgotten? In GW's lame attempt to give the Beastmen book more options, they simply cut-and-paste characters and gave them slightly different names and abilities...
And the Razorgor looks freaking ridiculous. What the hell, is this Babe the Pig on Steroids?
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Woah, much much better with those pics... guess im starting BoC after all
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Mekboy wrote:£25 of 10 bestigor.
Oh dear. From henceforth, they shall be known as Costigor.
You shall go down in GW history , for the creator of meme "Costigor"
722
Post by: Kanluwen
It's not a meme. It's a nickname.
And it's not exactly groundbreaking either, it was coined pretty much when the product list was announced.
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Post by: LunaHound
Kanluwen wrote:It's not a meme. It's a nickname.
And it's not exactly groundbreaking either, it was coined pretty much when the product list was announced.
Psh! because i crowned him first !
Cheese Elemental wrote:I rather like the new models, actually. This is Chaos we're talking about, not simple anthromorphic animals. They're meant to look deformed.
Ya the problem is... it doesnt look deformed as in mutation. It looks like the sculptor cant sculpt buff muscle , aka CATACHAN ( know what i mean? )
@BrookM , Im still screaming :'D a different angle does little to "improve" what we saw from the poster.
23957
Post by: Luchador Minotaur of Doom
@ everyone who apparently doesn't play ogres, or just everyone:
The paint job on the mins don't them no justice, look at the pre-order sprue pics, and make a judgement from there.
You'll notice that they look very similar to the ogres from the back. The head, and front legs (the back looks fine) can be fixed with a file, and a small amount of green stuff for fur. The foofs look fine.
How can you compare minotaurs to IRL animals?
Very minor problems, but they are still miles ahead of the metal ones.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Luchador Minotaur of Doom wrote:@ everyone who apparently doesn't play ogres, or just everyone:
The paint job on the mins don't them no justice, look at the pre-order sprue pics, and make a judgement from there.
You'll notice that they look very similar to the ogres from the back. The head, and front legs (the back looks fine) can be fixed with a file, and a small amount of green stuff for fur. The foofs look fine.
How can you compare minotaurs to IRL animals?
Very minor problems, but they are still miles ahead of the metal ones.
See thats where the problem lies.
1) You are comparing it ogre kingdom plastic , which i agree with you its the same , however just as bad.
2) You give little to no credit to the members that doesnt like the sculpt. You assume we arnt capable of looking past the paint job that "dont them no justice"
3) Sure they look like ogres , sure anything can be altered via some filing and GSing , sorry but i dont see the point.
Lastly we dont need to compare minos to IRL animals , take the minos from Avatar of War for example , now THAT is a proper sculpt.
But no worries , i realize that everything that i just said is just my dumb opinion.
And no worries for GW , i'll still buy the minos minus the costigors.
14699
Post by: It
Some better pics...
[Mod Edit - GW has said hotlinking dierectly to their website for images is a no-no. Please only post links, unless you've hosted the pictures elsewhere yourself. Thanks!]
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1350004&rootCatGameStyle=wh
And there you go. Have a nice time.
17692
Post by: Farmer
Hey guys,are Beastmen a new army ? because last time i checked they were beasts of chaos
116
Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Who painted the Razorgor? It is a shocking paint job...
The minotaurs look like they were sculpted by Rob Liefield...
The ungors are my favorites, followed by the gors, but then again they look like the old models.
The only let down on the doombull is the flipper feet.
Best names I've read so far:
Minotaurs:
Vomitaurs
Steroitaurs
Razorgor:
Pumbagor
18364
Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
I saw those "Things" that call themselves Beastmen and died a little inside-What has GW done to the first army I ever collected?! This is not what I hoped for at all.
Granted, the Doombull is IMO covered in awsomesauce, and though expensive I do like the new Bestigolds, but-Why aren't those gors skirmishing? Why do the Ungors have such human face's? Why is that abomonation they're calling a razordon allowed to be sold anywhere in the world? And what the feth is 'Malagor' doing in Morgurs spot?
Very very dissapointing GW  .
18837
Post by: Overlord
Hmmm... not the strongest release ever... especially after the skaven... i will start with the positives first
Ungors: great, real satyr vibe
Gors: similar, but nice
Doom bull: I like it, luckily better than his plastic counterparts. the head actually looks bovine
Razorgor: wow, so bad, but so good, like a bad horror film, it feels so tongue in cheek, with the bulging eyes and tripping over pose
Characters: Nothing to complain about, quite like the centigor guy, quite understated compared to other recent character sculpts
Bad stuff
Minotaurs: not quite as bad as i thought, main problem is the poses and the heads
Bestigors: the worst of the lot, seriously awful... and goldsword prices? the sprues make no sense whatso ever, could easily be fit on 1 sprue, and the poses? someone really dropped the ball on these.
As i said, not the greatest release, but still some positives
10274
Post by: Thalor
The only thing I like in the whole release is the characters, and they are overpriced $$$. I'll be converting or using alternate or older models for everything else. Hopefully the rules don't suck or they'll be shelved until next edition, just like WOC.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Cheese Elemental wrote:I rather like the new models, actually. This is Chaos we're talking about, not simple anthromorphic animals. They're meant to look deformed.
there is a clear difference between deformed 'cool chaos' and utter , these sculpts are not only disapointing when compared to the last release of beasts of chaos and the most recent WFB release, but when compared to other companies with only 5% of the money of GW like avatars of war, red bow games and raging heroes make the sculpture who worked on this release look like a child with playdo.
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Post by: cygnnus
Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:If you own beasts already what models will you buy? If you dont already own the Army what is inspireing enough for you to start? Id say not much.
Wow... I think Brother Chaplain Ginn nailed it. Man, those are some fugley models! Aside from a character or two, I really don't see any thing there that I'll be adding to my own BoC army. The Minotaurs are just bad. The (likely) Goldigors are meh. And the less said about the Pumbagor, the better...
About the only think I'm remotely interested in, aside from the odd character, are the Ungors with bows. Nice addition. But aside from that? I'll be sticking with what I already own.
Ugh. I guess I have to hope that the rules are balanced against the other Army Books out there, cuz there's nothing in the miniatures line that gets me excited about my Beasts again.
Vale,
JohnS
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Post by: Noble713
I'll be buying a few boxes of the existing Gors/Ungors, and that's about it. Not a single new-release model.
I have 3 of the old metal minotaurs w/GW and I think they look better.
Gorthor Beastlord + 1 Tuskgor Chariot = 2 chariots
Kazrak One-Eye for a hero.
So with just some core infantry added I should have the 500-750pt. "allied" beastman force to field alongside 2000pts. of Daemons and ~500pts. of WoC to simulate the old combined Chaos army. Nowhere near as tactically interesting/useful as when I devised it during 6th edition, but oh well...
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Post by: The Crippler
@ Waaagh_Gonads - perfect. The Liefeld comparison is PERFECT. (maybe they should have more pouches)
181
Post by: gorgon
The new angle still doesn't make me like the Minotaurs. They're still over-the-top cartoony and still don't fit the rest of the range. I think they'd be alright if they just lost about 25% of their muscle bulk. As is, you just want to paint them green.
The Razorgor is silly, but for whatever reason it doesn't bother me as much. Probably because I think it can be improved just by trimming down those OTT spines.
The rest of the range is pretty nice IMO. But I'm glad I already have much of what I need to build a small Beasts army. I couldn't bring myself to drop $$ on those Roidotaurs.
17155
Post by: bhsman
I love the Razorgore model, if only for the fact that the paintjob makes him look like he's coked out of his mind.
118
Post by: Schepp himself
Damn...I'm relieved that the skaven release didn't get hit by the ugly stick as hard as the beastmen.
I deleted the parts in my post talking abut models, everything has been said.
One thing: What is the goal of this release? I mean seriously, if the army book is not as insanely powerful as the demon army book I don't see many people starting beasts. I don't know for sure but I think that all this splitting up the three fractions is costing GW serious money. Or were you people hyped by the other chaos releases (Warriors of Chaos and Demons of Chaos)? I would say you can summarize it with an overall meh.
I just hope that Fantasy doesn't lose it's major antagonist that way. "Well, our fiercest enemy are those chaos guys up north but we hardly fight against those because their armies are so butt-ugly and no one wants to play them anymore..."
Greets
Schepp himself
11031
Post by: LuigiX
Worst figures I've seen from GW. Really below their usual standard. I'm not talking quality of scupt, technical complexity, etc- from a purely asthetic point of view, they are awful and hard to look at. These don't look like they were made by the same company that just produced the Skaven line (maybe the same company that made the new SW wolf rider, though).
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Post by: Kurgash
I saw the middle minotaur and immediately thought he was face-palming. Even GW's models feel the shame.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Kurgash wrote:I saw the middle minotaur and immediately thought he was face-palming. Even GW's models feel the shame.
I thought he is flipping me off. Another possible message from GW...
Greets
Schepp himself
123
Post by: Alpharius
Kurgash wrote:I saw the middle minotaur and immediately thought he was face-palming. Even GW's models feel the shame.
Schepp himself wrote:Kurgash wrote:I saw the middle minotaur and immediately thought he was face-palming. Even GW's models feel the shame.
I thought he is flipping me off. Another possible message from GW...
Greets
Schepp himself
Both are appropriate, so choose either...
...or both!
Just don't choose to buy these latest releases...
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Post by: reds8n
Now people have started seeing the book.. what do people make of the "Moonclaw" character then ? IS he supposed to be some form of alien or just some "pure" chaos or warpstone creature then ?
With regards to the fluff about the beastmen being the original inhabitants : it seems this is more a reference to the beastmen having some form of racial memory and myths relating to when they were the dominant force and humanity was pretty weak and their prey. This time, long after humanity united (sort of) and drove them back into the deeper parts of the forest, is longed for and they see humans as usurping the natural order of things and having stolen the lands and homes of the beastmen from them.
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Post by: nathonicus
Good god, that Razorgor is just... cartoony.
As usual, though, the plastic regiments are looking well done with lots of juicy bits. I am fond of the Bestigor regiment. The Gor regiment looks like a recut of the existing gors, and the ungors are alright.
I'm not crazy about the minotaurs, but I think if you reversed the lights and darks in the paint scheme (darker flesh, lighter fur areas) they would look alright.
I'm amazed at the price of the doombull, and it's alittle over the top sizewise.
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Post by: ghosty
i bet they dropped morghor.... >.> cos he was impossible to play with:
turn 1
"hmm it seems 10 models have jsut been killed by his aura.... shall we have a quick whip round the shoip to see if anyones got anymore spare spawn models?"
turn 2
"err how have 8 more died......? maybe we can use horrors as count as spawn"
turn 3
"hmm weve ran out of horrors.....anyone care if i use plaguebearers?"
see? and nowadays GW doesnt like the entertaining.....
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Post by: 99MDeery
I read the book yesterday, its interesting to say the least.
Morghur is in the book but only effects your own troops.
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Post by: Railguns
So then they just rewrite his rules. Morghor was a bit absurd but he became a crutch in a similar manner that Thorek did to the Dwarves.
Whoever wrote the book musn't care much for legacy too much, or at least as much as people would like him to, whoever it was. I like that they're adding the Jabberwocky in, although the anti-magic monster could stand to be a little more creative than a Cyclops. I think the beastmen do best thematically when they have the standard mix and match goat/wolf/man gor type creatures, then some decidedly more bestial yet not quite entirely monsters because they still use weapons/armor/ have rituals Minotaurs, and then finally the huge predatory uncivilized beasts from the deepest darkest depths of the forest that are coerced to fight for the "relatively" civilized Beastman culture through dark magic, brutal husbandry, etc.
If the rumors are true, I don't see what they felt the need to remove saves of any kind at all from the big beasties.
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Post by: Sidstyler
I wish I could gather up all the razorgor models, destroy the molds/greens/etc. for them while I'm at it, and then burn them in a fire.
I hate that model so much...I really hope that sculptor, whoever he is, doesn't do any of the models for any of the armies I like.
22993
Post by: Dead_Kennedy
I'm shocked at the new Bestigors. For models that have so few components or extra bits, premium pricing is ridiculous. "They're super deadly-like, you want three boxes!!". No, Gw, no I do not.
The Razorgor puzzles me. It seems that you can take them in units. Why release just one fantastically fugly model? It's odd for them to not even offer alternate sculpts.
On the Advance Order page it's got some photos of painted ungor w/bows. Aw look, he thinks he's people! Those models may grow on me... I look forward to seeing mixed ranks of sculpts going back to the old metals, I think ungors will be one of the most varied units modelling-wise.
Luckily for all us wannabe Beastlords, lots of other companies make models. That's who I'll give my money to.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Dead_Kennedy wrote:I'm shocked at the new Bestigors. For models that have so few components or extra bits, premium pricing is ridiculous. "They're super deadly-like, you want three boxes!!". No, Gw, no I do not.
The Razorgor puzzles me. It seems that you can take them in units. Why release just one fantastically fugly model? It's odd for them to not even offer alternate sculpts.
On the Advance Order page it's got some photos of painted ungor w/bows. Aw look, he thinks he's people! Those models may grow on me... I look forward to seeing mixed ranks of sculpts going back to the old metals, I think ungors will be one of the most varied units modelling-wise.
Luckily for all us wannabe Beastlords, lots of other companies make models. That's who I'll give my money to.
Not just that, it'd be relatively simple to grab the Bestigor arms you need, and then the standard Gor bodies, greenstuff some raggedy mail armor...
Voila. Bestigors!
3806
Post by: Grot 6
"The Beasts of Chaos" whole push from GW is absolutely bad...
Between the walk down memory lane that they still have cluttering the site to the whole "OOHHHH its in a BLACK BOX!!!"
The whole army is just putting a hat on a ... cow.
UnMOOOOOVVVED....
completly boooring.
Moo.
Wish they would have just left well enough alone.
1
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Been studying the minotaur frames, and I have to say (others agree with me, or I with them) that the paint job/photography has not done them justice. The actual sculpt of the muscles isn´t as heavy as the pics suggest. As for the Razorgor, I feel the bulging right eye was a faux pas, but nothing I can´t sort with some judicious clipping, and a Greenstuff salve to finish
Book has a number of cool things, but the most obviously daft idea are the Ungor Raiders, if only because in 2,000 points, your compulsory Core units, using them, set you back a piddling 90 points, leaving you 1910 points to seriously get the toys out.
Lore Of The Wild is odd. Filthy filthy spells, but high casting cost across the board, and a number of drawbacks to the higher spells (from the risk of wounding, to locking the user out from casting!).
Magic Items are pretty tasty.
Plus, Scouting Harpies FTW!
Special Characters are pretty cool, and I particularly like Khorros, who not only beefs up his unit of Centigor (makes them WS5) but makes ALL Centigor Core Choices!
So yeah, overall, a pretty tasty book. Barring the 3x5 Ungor Raider Core Cheese, nothing seems overtly broken or bollocks within the book. Colour me interested, but not right now! Gonna be a bit before I embark on yet another new army (curse you consecutive Skaven/Tyranid release!)
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Post by: RiTides
Hmm.... I like the idea, but the pics in my email today......... not all that impressive......
18277
Post by: Khornholio
I got a view of the pics today too. It looks like GW mailed this one in. And that dog thing from Ghostbusters II? Seriously? I like some of the Bestigor figures, but...egad.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Isn't that from the first Ghostbusters?
Hell, that would have been better, really. "Zuul!"
1099
Post by: Railguns
You watch, Morghor isn't in the book as a character because he needs the guy the other shaman guy to bring him a child so he can live again.
411
Post by: whitedragon
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Been studying the minotaur frames, and I have to say (others agree with me, or I with them) that the paint job/photography has not done them justice. The actual sculpt of the muscles isn´t as heavy as the pics suggest.
I agree. I think the Mino's look pretty damn sweet.
23512
Post by: bd1085
"Beef Cake" immediately comes to mind.
BEEF CAKE!!!
4042
Post by: Da Boss
The razorgor is on a 50mm base. My fears are confirmed. Good god.
Oh and MDG, if a cheap min core is allowed, you can bet there will be builds based around it.
Those prices are insane though, and I would not be happy about getting 3 minos in a box for that much.
7613
Post by: Kiwidru
im so glad that im not the only one that hates these overpriced minis. i have a fully functional beastmen army, that consists of mostly beastherds, warhounds, bestigor and centigor... with this release i was planning on grabbing 10 more bestigor (because the old ones were smaller in stature than gors), and some minotaurs (because i thought the last metal molds were WAY to goofy/cartoony/big nosed). After seeing the release photos/new rules i am considering just throwing the army on ebay. beastmen are one of 5 fully finished armies i own, and were by far my favorite to play, and now i dont even want to take them out of the case... if this is how i feel after having and loving the army prior, i cant imagine anyone actually starting an army from scratch... (esp considering that the battalion comes with 3 blocks of 10 infantry. so to even have a competitive core you need to purchase 2 battalions+heros+any special/rare tricks?)
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Post by: nieto666
Not all the minis are bad. Everyone is correct on how overpriced everything is. I mean come on 42 bucks for a doombull?? Ill just go get the old one for 20 and call it a day. GW keeps it up they're gonna run out of people playing their games!!
1099
Post by: Railguns
They may just be trying to rile up as much hate as possible for the Beastmen so they can DE them later (squat them without expressly saying so). Everyone get your tinfoil hats ready!
10345
Post by: LunaHound
nieto666 wrote:Not all the minis are bad. Everyone is correct on how overpriced everything is. I mean come on 42 bucks for a doombull?? Ill just go get the old one for 20 and call it a day. GW keeps it up they're gonna run out of people playing their games!!
But according to many GW players , they say that $42 is still cheaper than the golf club or riffle you wanted.
18277
Post by: Khornholio
I'm starting to wonder if the designers are tanking it on purpose to stick it to the "business men" at GW hoping the business crumbles and they can start their own independent gaming businesses a la McVey or Tim Prow.
8330
Post by: kestral
I agree that the paintjob is hurting the new beastmen. The muscle on the gors and ungors look nasty. Maybe the minatours are not as bad as we thought. Mind you, the shape of the legs and the chuck norris chest hair patch mean they're bad - they just may not be the worst GW models in history, which they are running strongly for in those pics. I kind of like the almost rhino like head, but the rest of the model is lousy. The new ungores seem to be a full resculpt, and the gors have some new bitz, like the face loincloth.
Ungors on 20mm bases in their own units make me happy - I have lots of cool stuff that can "counts as" for them, and the models themselves look good. Liking the bows too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No conceivable reason I would ever use that Razorgor model, when there are so many MUCH cooler models that could take its place - starting with plastic farm animals with bitz glued on.
I must say, I think FB chaos is the only area where I feel GW is moving backwards. Compared to the flavor and variety of the old chaos models (who were, well, chaotic), the new stuff really leaves me cold. Other ranges have old models I like, but in general I approve of the direction they are going. FB chaos is pretty boring unless massively converted.
Does anybody know the fate of the Khorngor and Pestigor models? They were my favorite models from the old range.
1635
Post by: Savnock
OKay, based on model aesthetics and viable unit choices, I'm predicting that Chariot plus core Centigor hordes are going to be one of the more popular builds out there.
Unless I misread one of the earlier posts on this thread, Razorgor chariots have 5 W. Can anyone confirm or deny this, please?
If it proves true, flanking forces of Razorgor chariots plus bray-shamen, perhaps with Centigors on the other side and conventional chariots in the center, will be a nasty, nasty combo. Looks like I should get back on those 7 chariots I was modeling some time ago, maybe pick up a couple more. And, of course, model some alternate Razorgors. The Avatars of War Netherhound is definitely going to stand in for one.
Also, does anyone know what the Centigor points costs will run, expressed in multiples of some current unit choice (like how many current Ungor)? Also, how much does that special character that makes them core run?
Sorry for all the requests, but big thanks to anyone who knows and has a sec to write them up.
8330
Post by: kestral
Those Ungor sprues are going to be a gold mine for conversion I think - starting with a whole lot of bare, not entirely steriodal arms - they might be a real breakthrough for modeling Catachans.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Savnock wrote:OKay, based on model aesthetics and viable unit choices, I'm predicting that Chariot plus core Centigor hordes are going to be one of the more popular builds out there.
Unless I misread one of the earlier posts on this thread, Razorgor chariots have 5 W. Can anyone confirm or deny this, please?
If it proves true, flanking forces of Razorgor chariots plus bray-shamen, perhaps with Centigors on the other side and conventional chariots in the center, will be a nasty, nasty combo. Looks like I should get back on those 7 chariots I was modeling some time ago, maybe pick up a couple more. And, of course, model some alternate Razorgors. The Avatars of War Netherhound is definitely going to stand in for one.
Also, does anyone know what the Centigor points costs will run, expressed in multiples of some current unit choice (like how many current Ungor)? Also, how much does that special character that makes them core run?
Sorry for all the requests, but big thanks to anyone who knows and has a sec to write them up.
Centigor are the square route of 125 for each one, but come with Light Armour, Shield and Spear. Their 2 attacks are now proper attacks (like they did with Saurus) and they count fully as Cavalry. Drunken is somewhat improved, with no real downside (1-2 adds +2 to Initiative, as they are sober for once). Quite a tasty medium Cavalry choice in my opinion, but not sure they are hard enough on their own to be taken en-masse. Ghorros himself seems expensive at first glance, as he is 'only' an upgrade character. However, he does make the unit he leads WS5 for no extra points, he always gets 'Look Out Sir' as long as a single line model remains, makes the whole army +1Ld for Primal Fury tests,has MR2, plus a tasty weapon. I'd say definitely take him if you wish to exploit the Centicore rule (See wot I did thar?), but if you just want a couple of units, give it a bit more though, as you can get quite a bit of the cheaper stuff for his cost. Of course, on the bright side he's a decent little combat character, so you might forgo a Fighty Hero points wise to cushion his cost a bit? And yes, Razorgor Chariots do have 5 wounds, which is bloody nasty.
1635
Post by: Savnock
Thanks, Doc! That really informs my modeling decisions.
Maybe I won't do core Centigor after all, then. I'll have enough cariots to have core covered and then some (they do count for your basic core choices, don't they?), so maybe I'll have a unit or two for flanking. Seems like a good idea to have flankers that will be almost as tough as the chariots, to avoid giving away too many wounds in CC , so I'll still go with centigors over hounds.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Standard chariots, yes. Razorgor Chariots are Special, with no way to make them Core.
The standard spell, Bestial Surge might come in handy here, as it allows all friendly units within 6" of the caster to move D6+1", ala Orc Waagh! (toward closest enemy unit, f none visible, straight forward). Range is a bit short, but there is a Magic Item which extends that somewhat...
1635
Post by: Savnock
Yep. If Bray-shamen are still a bit burlier than your average magic user (and especially if a braystaff still provides either an armor buff or 2HW), I might mount some of them in chariots and put them with flankers. With enough chariots, that could get really awful.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Braystaff is just a handweapon these days sadly, but otherwise yup, they can have an Empire Captain in combat quite comfortably.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Centigor are the square route of 125 for each one, but come with Light Armour, Shield and Spear. Their 2 attacks are now proper attacks (like they did with Saurus) and they count fully as Cavalry. Drunken is somewhat improved, with no real downside (1-2 adds +2 to Initiative, as they are sober for once). Quite a tasty medium Cavalry choice in my opinion, but not sure they are hard enough on their own to be taken en-masse.
Do they still get the option for throwing axes? It appears nobody rates them for BoC Centigors, but it just seemed appropriate and Germanic. Though I'd have prefered a light cavalry with javelins option, but maybe I have just been playing Rome: Total War too much.
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Post by: Dysartes
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Centigor are the square route of 125 for each one, but come with Light Armour, Shield and Spear. Their 2 attacks are now proper attacks (like they did with Saurus) and they count fully as Cavalry. Drunken is somewhat improved, with no real downside (1-2 adds +2 to Initiative, as they are sober for once). Quite a tasty medium Cavalry choice in my opinion, but not sure they are hard enough on their own to be taken en-masse.
Y'might want to rethink that points cost guide, MDG - the square root of 125 is 11.18, which seems an odd points cost.....
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Well, it's Monday morning and the web grots are back at work and finally put prices on all of the Beastmen merchandise on the website that went live last Friday. Honestly, I can't believe how many times there have been major omissions and errors when new merchandise goes up on the GW Online Store since the new site went live in spring 2008. Even more surprising is that those errors are often left to stand for days before being corrected. You'd think the CEO or some other nobby executive would make heads roll when errors like that appear and have them corrected immediately, but nearly two years after the new site went live they still allow merchandise to be posted with no price for an entire weekend. That has to have a negative impact on their business and I can't believe management stands for it.
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Post by: Scott_K
LuigiX wrote:Worst figures I've seen from GW. Really below their usual standard. I'm not talking quality of scupt, technical complexity, etc- from a purely asthetic point of view, they are awful and hard to look at. These don't look like they were made by the same company that just produced the Skaven line (maybe the same company that made the new SW wolf rider, though).
Craptacular.
I hope someone from Games Workshop is reading this thread.
If they are, just so you know, I've bought thousands of dollars worth of GW products over the past 14 years - but GW couldn't pay ME to field these models on a gaming table.
Using the word "disappointment" to describe this beastmen release is a huge understatement.
Let's hope Avatars of War produces more of their minotaurs.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Dysartes wrote:Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Centigor are the square route of 125 for each one, but come with Light Armour, Shield and Spear. Their 2 attacks are now proper attacks (like they did with Saurus) and they count fully as Cavalry. Drunken is somewhat improved, with no real downside (1-2 adds +2 to Initiative, as they are sober for once). Quite a tasty medium Cavalry choice in my opinion, but not sure they are hard enough on their own to be taken en-masse.
Y'might want to rethink that points cost guide, MDG - the square root of 125 is 11.18, which seems an odd points cost.....
This, combined with your avatar, made a wonderful smartassy post.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: Minsc
Did a quick run of costs: New Doombull is twice as expensive as the old one five years ago, and still $16 more than the current model.
Old box that was $30 / $35 (depending on what year) for eight Ungors and twelve Gors, is now separate boxes of $25 for 10 of either. Cheaper technically if you only wanted one, but about $15-20 more if you wanted each. Questionable how much the new sprues are worth it.
Minos, meanwhile, are cheaper by about 50¢ from five years ago, unknown amount from before the new models. Plastic, so whether they're worth the price change (Much lighter and easier to assemble!) or not (They're not metal, why only 50¢ cheaper?) is up for grabs. Opinion of models aside, anyways (some people seem to love, others seem to hate, some think it's just their paint-job, etcetera).
On the plus side, besides maybe one or two monsters and having to rebase any pre-existing Ungors, current Beastmen players probably aren't going to have to buy gak tons of new units. On the negative, they're going to have to learn to play them in completely different styles, and armies that were heavily reliant on things such as Dragon Ogres are going to be SoL.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Minos, meanwhile, are cheaper by about 50¢ from five years ago, unknown amount from before the new models. Plastic, so whether they're worth the price change (Much lighter and easier to assemble!) or not (They're not metal, why only 50¢ cheaper?)
"Premium" troops usually stay about the same when they go from metal to plastic. Like the question about it, it's nothing new. Raveners: $20 each in metal, $44.50 in plastic. Terminators were about $10 each years ago in metal and stayed that way when they went to plastic. Greatswords had crept up to $50 in metal and are $41.25 in plastic. Bestigor...well, you get the idea.
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Post by: Kiwidru
All i know is chaos knights went from $50 to $25, and warhounds went from 2 for $10 to 10 for $22 when turning to plastic, and i dont see any reason (other than greed/ corporate pork barreling) that these minis would cost so much, regardless of the quality of the sculpt
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Pricing is not solely based on the sculpt, it's also the "in-game value" coupled with the number the average collector/player is expected to purchase if they buy that model range. This is not new, it's been like that for many years. For example, it's why a tiny assassin model costs more than some blisters containing three larger models. Now how long till this question pops up again?
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Post by: Minsc
Oh yeah, and:
Bestigors. About $1.50 more expensive than they were five years ago, but - last I checked prices now - either $4 or $9 cheaper than they were before the fresh release, with the addition of command w/o requiring a Blister.
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Post by: Llamahead
Most interesting thing though it confirms that Ungor are on 20mm bases so better get rebasing people! Grrr first army I've done scenic bases for utterly gacked. The prices also get my goat. Anybody know any good alternative sources for Beastmen?
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Post by: Kiwidru
hehe, i agree BrassS. which is why i mentioned the knights which can easily top 300 points with the boxes contents, are one of the best cavalry in the game (making concessions for blood knights and rhinox riders), and are a staple in any WoC army i have ever seen. They would equate to roughly 12 points per dollar, where as the ungor are around 2-3 points per dollar... most new players (in my area at least) dont have an infinite supply of money to construct new armies, and have their unit selections whiddled down by poor pricing by GW.
in terms of other "cheapest available core infantry"
24 skinks - $35
20 freecompany - $35
19 orcs - $35
20 zombies - $35
20 clanrats - $33
20 nightgoblins/goblins/gnoblar - $30
20 ungor - $50
i guess i just dont know what, if anything, would be causing these models to cost 30% more than the others
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Post by: Railguns
Wait, what? $50 Ungor? UNGOR?? The Beastman skink equivalent, minus poison, skirmishing and all that mess, are now $50 dollars?
GW must really want people to stop playing Beastmen (Formerly Beasts of Chaos). What a shame.
I guess it's near the same as buying two boxes of ten skeletons, but this definitely puts the new pricing strategy into perspective without the cheaper-for-less shenanigans.
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Post by: Llamahead
I've got a feeling its got to do with VAT going back to 17.5%. That'll be the excuse anyway.
Found a good alternative Razorgor anyway http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/animal/latest/03208
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Post by: Dysartes
Schepp himself wrote:Dysartes wrote:Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Centigor are the square route of 125 for each one, but come with Light Armour, Shield and Spear. Their 2 attacks are now proper attacks (like they did with Saurus) and they count fully as Cavalry. Drunken is somewhat improved, with no real downside (1-2 adds +2 to Initiative, as they are sober for once). Quite a tasty medium Cavalry choice in my opinion, but not sure they are hard enough on their own to be taken en-masse.
Y'might want to rethink that points cost guide, MDG - the square root of 125 is 11.18, which seems an odd points cost.....
This, combined with your avatar, made a wonderful smartassy post.
Oops - that wasn't my intent, and I think I know what MDG was tring to say, but I was bored at work
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Post by: IG88
I have a Jabberwocky available at my website, over at Blood Moon. Funny cause I made the beast 2 years ago just for the heck of it now all the sudden GW makes rules for one and the demand has skyrocketed. solid metal and big for only 30.00 US
Take care all.
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Post by: Railguns
With a little green stuff to fix the joints and probably a few cosmetic details to taste, that Jabberwocky would fit right in and look better then most of the newer models coming out. At first I thought the musculature was too well done to fit in, but the range is inconsisten enough for a few models made by someone with a good grasp of anatomy to be fine.
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Post by: Alpharius
That IS a nice alternative Razorgor!
And really, with the 'official' one being so horrible, I'd bet that they'd even let that one in for 'official' tournaments too!
IG88 wrote:I have a Jabberwocky available at my website, over at Blood Moon. Funny cause I made the beast 2 years ago just for the heck of it now all the sudden GW makes rules for one and the demand has skyrocketed. solid metal and big for only 30.00 US
Very, very nice model!
Plus, it has the " GW Style Leering Tongue" too, so many people will believe it is the real deal too!
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Post by: Scott_K
Now THOSE are shaping up nicely
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Post by: TBD
The Minotaurs look a lot better when you have them in front of you. Those pictures on the GW site and that paint job make them look a lot worse than they actually are.
The worker at the local GW was painting them up yesterday, modelled with great axes. With a proper paint job the muscles on the legs, and the muscles in general do not look as awful as the GW picture.
But the back of the models are muscled He-man style, and so are their bare buttocks.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Scott_K wrote:
Now THOSE are shaping up nicely
I especially like the taunting description:
"3 days ago I saw pictures of new GW minotaurs. I decided that I like try sculpt my own vision of minotaurs as
dynamic and aggressive.
[...]
It is only 2 days of work and I will change some parts, other are unfinished, but I hope that overall conception is clear."
Imo, it's a good thing that gamers are free to choose minis of other producers for their armies. This should improve the overall quality of available sculpts.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: Thorgut
They're the first sculpts by Scibor I actually like.
Hopefully he'll keep the quality up as he finishes them.
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Post by: gorgon
The Scibor versions are much, much better. If I need to fill out my existing metals, I'll look there first.
It's very liberating knowing I won't be taking Beasts to any GW events and can therefore field the miniatures I want.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Any idea on how much the scribor ones will cost?
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Post by: skullking
I"m not happy to hear that the minotaurs won't have a 'core' option anymore. That destroys my plans of an all minotaur army. I really don't want to have to field gors and ungors. Does anyone know if Gothor, the beastlord character who rides a chariot is coming back? If not, he may have to become just a regular charior for now. I am really glad to hear that there is a hero level minotaur though. Can't have too many of those guys in your army.
I also thought I'd point out that the Rhinox on the GW site as bits is $25, so if you like that better than the razor gor model, that might be a comperable route. Also, if have the forgeworld rhinox (which are amazing), but when you get them you get a bull ogre sprue as well. Toss some minotaur heads on them, and you've got a squad of Minotaurs for quite a bit less.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Gorthor is indeed in the book.
Whilst you can't get Minotaur Core anymore (which is possibly just as well, seeing as they are rock hard!) you can exploit the cheapo Ungor Raiders to supply your Core (they can make 2,000 point compulsory Core a mere 90 points) then spend lots of points on Minotaurs. Downside here is of course the 4 unit limitation thanks to them remaining special, but it's something. And when you can take Chariots and Centigor (provided you invest in Ghorro) as Core, I think you can have a horribly fast Beasty army.
Oh, not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but whilst Centigor no longer treat woods as open terrain (boo) they have received a small boost, making them M8 (yay) which might be some kind of compensation.
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Post by: Alpharius
This:
or this:
is probably a better choice for some of the new big gribbly monsters in the upcoming Beastmen book.
As is this:
maybe, for a Razorgor?
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Post by: Da Boss
Anything that lets more people field that gorgeous razorback titan in more armies is fine by me!
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Hello ebay, meet my Beasts of Chaos
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".
I think you're right as i can't possibly think of any rational justification to giving them feet with talons.
/facepalm
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Post by: JOHIRA
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".
Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield? Not elephantitis?
*Yes, I know.
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Post by: Savnock
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".
Hahaha... if only. Nope, these look like the result of underskilled CAD designers, the same artist(s) that messed up the rat ogres. It's lack of skill and poor judgement of proportion that we're seeing, married to an unwillingness to scrap cruddy sculpts and redo them. The latter fault really steams me up more than the former. I cannot imagine that CAD design has a high enough overhead that the revenue gained by making better-looking minis that people would actually buy outweighs the costs of scrapping poor ones or demanding a few hours of improvement.
I do think, though, that the widespread disappointment about the Razorgor and Minos shouldn't make those of us who already have an old force discard them right away. On the upside, the core of the army is largely the same minis and similar builds. Me, I'm gonna give it a college try with a couple builds in test games before I chuck my BoC army.
Buying any of the new figs is right out, though. I feel sorry for any newbie who gets suckered into buying the overpriced Gor/Ungor sets.
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Post by: Therion
I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield?
The 8-pointed star was not invented by GW and is not owned by them, though many have that impression because GW behaves as if they invented it. Like many of their ideas that don't come from history and mythology, it comes from popular fantasy literature, in this case, the "Eternal Champion" stories like Elric and Hawkmoon by Michael Moorcock.
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Post by: Balance
BrassScorpion wrote:Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield?
The 8-pointed star was not invented by GW and is not owned by them, though many have that impression because GW behaves as if they invented it. Like many of their ideas that don't come from history and mythology, it comes from popular fantasy literature, in this case, the "Eternal Champion" stories like Elric and Hawkmoon by Michael Moorcock.
I think that's why the post had the "Yes, I know" comment...
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Ugghhh why do so many threads eventually turn into an IP arguement... can we just keep it about the beasts and maybe get some of the pictures people speak of that show how "not bad" the minos are?
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Just spoke with a friend of mine tonight about the new Minotaurs. He's a Beastmen fan and generally not overly critical of such things, but he was talking about just continuing to use his metal Minotaurs after seeing the legs on the new plastic Minotaurs. Still no Black Box for Beastmen in US GW stores yet, but I'm interested to see if they look better, the same or worse in person than the pictures on the GW website.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Savnock wrote:Nope, these look like the result of underskilled CAD designers, the same artist(s) that messed up the rat ogres.
It looks to me more like the work of someone who has never bothered to look at anatomy, either human or animal. Muscles are not lumps that stick out for no reason other than to impress kids coming off of a WoW binge, they are tissue tied to movement- it is critical to have at least a basic grasp of how the body joins together if you're going to make a believable representation of a humanoid form. They don't always bulge, they tense and relax in pairs depending on what position they are holding and how much force they are straining to exert.
You can tell when designers have taken pains to look at real-life when they design their miniatures, and while most fans don't expect minis to be realistic, we do expect them to be believable. We have to be able to suspend our disbelief and accept that something on some alternate universe battlefield could look like that. The old plastic cold ones were clearly inspired by real animals. The new plastic cold ones are less believable in musculature but more believable in skin texture, but still stay close enough to real life that they are extremely popular. The old metal warhounds, while maybe not as striking as the cold ones, definitely looked like believable mutated canines. The new plastic ones, not so much, and the disappointment when they were released was loud and clear.
Very few of us can believe that something like the new minotaurs would exist on a battlefield. With those messed up legs, they look like they can barely walk (they clearly have lumps where no muscle would exist on human or bovine legs). Those messed-up plantigrade hooftalons would only add to their inability to keep balance. And with those absurd torso muscles, it's hard to believe those cursed creatures could flex enough to even lift their weapons up to eye level, let alone swing an effective strike. And the razorgor is equally unbelievable. Though in this case the disbelief is less that it could anatomically function and more that it could possibly be scary. And what is up with that skin texture?
I think this sort of thing happens when artists get into a rut and just try to churn out product rather than slowing down to take the time to check if what they are making works. And since GW's sculptors are working for a company, they should have someone like an editor above them to slow them down when they need it. That's why I said earlier that I don't blame the sculptors, but I blame whoever gave these guys the green light. That guy is clearly not doing their job.
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Post by: mikhaila
BrassScorpion wrote:Just spoke with a friend of mine tonight about the new Minotaurs. He's a Beastmen fan and generally not overly critical of such things, but he was talking about just continuing to use his metal Minotaurs after seeing the legs on the new plastic Minotaurs. Still no Black Box for Beastmen in US GW stores yet, but I'm interested to see if they look better, the same or worse in person than the pictures on the GW website.
Mine shipped out today, hopefully I'll have it Monday/Tuesday, and other stores should also have them going out.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Therion wrote:I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.
I dig the new bestigors, but since the other new releases are so godawful and last ones being gak too they may be benefiting from the ugly friend factor.
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Post by: 40kenthusiast
I'm with Therion. Models are fine. They are just going to get painted and put in ranked up units. These aren't your centerpiece.
It's the rules I'm wondering about. Can't wait to get my hands on this book.
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Post by: gorgon
My prediction is that the Minotaurs will look a little better (although still with unbelievably exaggerated musculature) when viewed in grey plastic, but then look worse again once they're painted, shaded and highlighted and you see the muscles/blobby flesh in more detail again.
The Bestigor don't knock my socks off and are very expensive, but I don't think they look OTT ridiculous like the Minos. They're clearly a better concept.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Therion wrote:I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.
I don't think I've said this on Dakka yet, but here's my take on the minos, after seeing sprues and various pics, etc.
It's not that they're hideous abortions or truly vomit-inducing (though perhaps quite disappointing), it's that they're so expensive at the same time. I figure a plastic kit has four elements to its success: sculpt, options included, quantity of troops, price. Some slipping in one category or the other can be made up by excelling in others, but GeeDub, judging by how many people are not planning on buying the new minos, in favor of old metals or other companies' metals, has failed this balancing act. The options are excellent as with most all new Dub kits, but here the sculpts are sub-par (muscles on muscles, heads melded to chests, etc), the quantity of troops is sad (look at the ogre boxes), and the price is unacceptable given the other categories. That's why I think the mino box fails, because of the ramped up pricing scheme GW is continuing to pursue, which could care less about the actual quality of the product vs their perception of it.
For the record though, the razorgor is quite pathetic, particularly as that thing is supposed to be run in units?? And converted into chariots?? And you pay $25 for it??
- Salvage
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Post by: Alpharius
40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with Therion. Models are fine. They are just going to get painted and put in ranked up units. These aren't your centerpiece.
It's the rules I'm wondering about. Can't wait to get my hands on this book.
Have to disagree, respectfully, here.
Minotaurs could and should be centerpiece units in a Beastman army.
But these certainly won't be!
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Post by: Jin
Wow, the prices for the Special choices for Beastmen are high.
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Post by: Alpharius
I haven't seen the price breakdown recently...
Care to share?
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Post by: Blokus
I do not mind the bulbous look of the minotaurs, and I really like the look of the razorgor. But, I am a fan of grossly exaggerated models. I like that the razorgor looks like Pumba did a line of coke off a hooker's mommy parts!
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Post by: Alpharius
Blokus wrote:I do not mind the bulbous look of the minotaurs, and I really like the look of the razorgor. But, I am a fan of grossly exaggerated models. I like that the razorgor looks like Pumba did a line of coke off a hooker's mommy parts!
Clearly, you're insane!
And you might have the best first post ever.
And since this is Dakka, that's saying something!
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Post by: Jin
@Alpharius - they're all up on the GW site.
Basically-
Doombull- $41.25
Gor and Ungor Boxes (10x per box) - $24.75
Warhounds - $22
Chariot - $30
and the Specials is where it gets quite pricey:
Minotaurs (3x Plastics) - $44.50
Bestigors (10x Plastics) - $41.25
Centigors (5x Metals?) - $57.75
Razorgor (1x Metal) - $20
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Post by: George Spiggott
I saw the new plastic Minotaurs today in the 'flesh'. I take it all back, they are awesome (and huge) models, not sucky weird-ass muscle monsters as they appear in pictures.
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Post by: Alpharius
Jin wrote:
and the Specials is where it gets quite pricey:
Minotaurs (3x Plastics) - $44.50
Bestigors (10x Plastics) - $41.25
Centigors (5x Metals?) - $57.75
Razorgor (1x Metal) - $20
You're not kidding.
Nice to see that the Razorgor is already on closeout special though...
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Post by: Jin
Yeah, it's almost like they're doing their best NOT to sell those damn things.
Oddly enough, it's even uglier once you see a clear pic of it.
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Post by: Blokus
I already own some of the old gor/ungor plastic kits so I am going to buy the army box, two mino kits, the doombull, and two razorgors.
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Post by: Alpharius
Blokus wrote:I already own some of the old gor/ungor plastic kits so I am going to buy the army box, two mino kits, the doombull, and two razorgors.
What?
You're twice as insane that I thought previously!
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Post by: Blokus
Seriously, it is no joke I dig the sculpts!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to say I am not the sculptor either.
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Post by: Alpharius
Blokus wrote:Seriously, it is no joke I dig the sculpts!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to say I am not the sculptor either.
Well, there goes my follow up question!
Seriously though, I'm glad someone likes it.
Please post pics once you got them painted up!
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Post by: Blokus
Fo'sure
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Post by: mikhaila
Eyes burning....Just read the new Beastman book cover to cover.
Initial Impressions: Quite Balanced, certainly not the codex creep we've been seeing. It's not in the same league as VC, Dark Elves, or Demons, but certainly have a raw power and ferociousness that work well with the armies fluff.
Many old rules have changed. No more infighting, instead the overall army rule gives them a chance for hatred in each round of combat, and frenzy on double 1's. Bitter, Bitter little mutants that hate the world. Blood Greed for minos makes them only roll 1 dice for pursue and overrun, but if the win a combat round they become frenzied. If already frenzied, they add +1 to attacks for next round. I can literally see them just hacking through armies as they get stronger and stronger. Magic is very, very brutal and fits the army theme. One lowlevel spell summons spiders and vermin, doing 5d6 str 1 hits to a unit, another actually lets the Shaman summon and link his spirit to a monster, bringing on a free Gorgan, or other heavy hitter.
Good fluff. Big book, lots of stories. Many things in the book that don't have kits, but that I'm going to be building. Gorgan, Cygor, Jabberwocky!
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Post by: Kanluwen
So Mik, it's actually a *good* book?
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Well Im glad to know its not a new crazy over powered army as I want to actually be able to pick up friendly games. and if the models are better irl like everyone is saying then I will definitely start them!
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Post by: Jin
Hrm....good to hear. May have to pick up the book just for a read, then.
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Post by: Sarge
Are you sure its Strength 1? Would be pretty freakin' useless.
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Post by: Minsc
Sarge wrote:Are you sure its Strength 1? Would be pretty freakin' useless.
Wounds T3 and 4 on 6's. Not that bad, especially considering the S2 magic missiles already had the "Wound T4 on 6's" bit and they were usually only 3D6 hits. 5D6 hits, rolling average, will do about 2-4 wounds on a T4 unit, which is about the same (if slightly inferior for the low end) as a 2D6 S4 magic missile against a similar toughness.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Can someone who's seen the Doombull in the flesh tell me how high he is? I don't need micrometer precise measurement, just an approximation.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Black Box of Beastmen arrived at my local GW store today with a Minotaur sprue, Gor sprue and Army Book. I have to say that the Minotaur sprue looked pretty good, not like I was expecting after seeing the painted preview models on the GW website. The paint job really does make the models look odd in a way they don't when they are new on sprue. I also thought the Army Book looked better in person than forum discussions have made it sound.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
I am extremely glad that everyone is saing the minos dont look very bad in person... I might get to start the army after all!
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Post by: Kurgash
got a good look at the mino sprues and no they aren't super tumor, just a bit more muscular.
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Post by: Alpharius
I have a feeling that, while the Minotaurs might look better as unpainted plastic on the spure, no paint job is going to make them look good...
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Post by: GentlemanGuy
If you do buy the new minos please do not paint them the same way as GW as from what I read they're trying to emphasize the muscles and well you all know it failed
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Post by: Kiwidru
oh man, i read the new army book the other day (my local GW is late in getting its mail) and i cant believe the capital-Y yam they have done to the rules. ambushing, which was once the calling card of the army, is a joke from the tactical-foresight-planning point of view. you have the same chance of the unit coming in on the table edge where you want them as your opponent choosing the the table edge? hounds no longer ambush, and neither do heros?!? anyone that has played beastmen before, and those that can mathhammer realize that a few ws 3-4 str 3 attacks on a model with no armor isnt going to win you any combats. Each ambushing unit must be 'mirrored' by a unit deployed regularly? all ambushing units come into play individually, rather than as a collective?. 5 rare choices, 4 of which are giant-esque large monsters? granted minotaur and minotaur heros are really beefy by including bullcharge and transferable frenzy, the army should have been titled "Minotaurmen and the Gigantors, now including minimum required troops slots" /rageoff
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Thankfully, your army has got a major boost overall.
Ambush is still fairly useful, just not as harsh on your enemy as it was before.
Cygors are horrendous! A moving, hitting Rock Lobber with a fair chance at knackering my opponents Magic Phase? Yes please, especially given the rather lack lustre Ld7 on Vampires and Ld8 on Daemons. Sure it's not 100% dependable, but it's still pretty damned tasty in my book.
Jabberslythe is naughty as well. Whilst not as immediately hard as the Ghorgon or Cygor, it's Aura Of Madness, plus ability to fly makes it filth on a stick. Land in the middle of the opposing army, and watch your opponent panic. This one is certainly my favourite for being summoned, as not only does the flying enable it to get where you need it, but coming on from any Table Edge, with it's Aura of Madness is freaking sweet!
As I said earlier, only really daft thing in the book are the Raiders, if only because in 2,000 bracket games, I can fulfil my minimum core for a paltry 90 points, seriously allowing me to get the Toys out, though I would wager once you've mazed your slots elsewhere points will still remain which can only be spent on Core!
Herds of Gor are pokey. Decent toughness, not too shabby in a punch up, and relatively cheap. Tick, tick and tick for me.
Main downside for the otherwise lovely Lore Of The Wild are the casting costs. Cheapest spell is a 7 to cast, and it soon goes up!
Centigor got a suitable boost, despite losing the ability to treat Woods as open ground for movement. M8 obviously goes some way to compensating, but now they count as full Cavalry, with all the benefits that entails, AND they have 2 attacks, rather than one at normal strength, one at boosted. They come about as equipped as you need them as well (Light Armour, Shield and Spear). Perhaps a little costly compared to other similar Medium Cav, but the savings that can be made on your core makes this slightly less of an issue.
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Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
Morgues in the hero section now as well.
Also, minaraurs can get a form of impact hits
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Post by: Llamahead
Good to hear that my work on new Centigor won't be wasted!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Saw the Minotaurs in person today. Much better IRL. It's that pain scheme that makes 'em look like ass. The book was interesting, with the Giant, Beastman Giant, Jabberwockythingywhatsit and Rock Lobba Beastman Giant. Lots of Giants. And a spell that summons one.
Sad to see no Khornagores or Pestigores or any of that.
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Post by: lords2001
I saw the Minomodels with HBMC today at GW.
Excellent models. Fantastic models. So good, I will get some, even though i don't even play fantasy.
Trust me, they are great models. Plus, I could see they would do well as Ogryn, with some work.
Also, the magic phase, and the characters/specials are great! And the new monsters are cool too.
Enough to almost get me to start an army - playing them will be different to the old style of playing, but still fun. It seems that the Heroes/specials are great at smashing ranked units, and the blocks of units are great at smashing heroes.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And for anyone wondering about lords2001's avatar, that's actually what happened after he saw the Razorgore - his eyes started bleeding.
Horrific model...
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm somewhat glad to hear this about the new Minotaurs, but until I see them with someone else's paint job on them, I just can't believe...
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Post by: Flashman
Yes, will be watching painting and modelling with baited breath in Feb to see the first decent Minotaur paint job.
Dakka painting challenge perhaps?
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
Can you have an army of minotaurs? The plastics did look better than what GW had painted...
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Post by: fellblade
I was loud in crying FAIL at the minotaurs. My FLGS got the black box yesterday, and gave me the minotaurs to assemble and paint. I will retract my initial very harsh criticism. My new opinion: they don't totally suck. I still don't think they are wonderful, but I will admit that the 'Eavy Metal team's paintjob is most of what makes them look like suck, and the rest is the photography.
Fire the 'Eavy Metal paint team.
As for the book, well. Ambush has been changed to the point of uselessness. On the other hand, the Beast Rage or Beastial Fury or whatever-it's-called army-wide rule is pretty nice, and I'm glad to see the back of Unruly. Morghur's spawn-creating rule only affects friendly units, but only one friendly model is removed, and a real complete spawn is created (not one that might have only a single wound, as before). We got Harpys, not Gorgoyles, which is a disapointment- I guess not enough DE players are using Harpys, so they want to push the models. The big monsters are expensive, but their abilities are just sick. The magic lore has some interesting potential.
All in all, it looks like I won't be selling my beast army right away, after all.
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Post by: JOHIRA
I'm glad you guys like them, but pics or it didn't happen. I am not going to accept that anything good can come out of these models until I see some pretty stellar paint jobs. I mean, for crying out loud, they have muscles that start outside the knee, cross the tibia, and connect at the inside ankle. There's just no reason for that.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Well I saw the minos today and Im happy to agree tht they are indeed no where near as bad as the previous painted pictures although they could still be better... no i dont have pics Im sorry.
The book had alot of interesting stuff too so I might start the army after all as it seems to be really fun!
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Post by: Kiwidru
im gonna respectfully disagree on the Gors, they cost the same price (when equipped with 2 hand weapons) as ghouls, have the same stat line, without immune to psychology, poison, fear, or the ability to be raised for free. granted they have the ability to ambush (which is a the new beastmen endeavor towards wackyhammer: could be moderately good, but statistically not going to be what you want/need), and primal fury (possibility to be good on the charge, but with mediocre Init and no armor save, i cant really see it coming into play if you are charged/in a prolonged battle vs anything you would need it against). you herd (pun intended) it hear first: the new beastmen army will concentrate on everything but beastmen
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Gor have a higher movement than Ghouls, don't underestimate that in Fantasy.
Plus ITP can be a bummer when you've left a unit in charge range of something hard. You have to turn round, grab your ankles and think of England when that happens.
And Ghouls don't get Ambush either.
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Post by: Dysartes
From what I read of it when flicking through the Beastmen book yesterday, MDG, I can't really say that having Ambush is a selling point
I've got to agree with the chorus saying that the minotaurs look better in person, but I'm still not a big fan of the feet & ankles.
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Post by: Reecius
I must be one of the only people to like the painted Minos, I think they look awesome.
The razorgor, I honestly think I could sculpt something better than that.
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Post by: devinb1690
Reecius wrote:I must be one of the only people to like the painted Minos, I think they look awesome.
The razorgor, I honestly think I could sculpt something better than that.
I agree with you 110%, I actually think the Minos look absolutely beastly, which is a good thing. I am a little angry that they don't look like they do in the art on the cover of the book though. I do agree that they aren't beasts of chaos anymore, and thus shouldn't look like they are, but they do look monstrous. I would still prefer an Ogre revamping instead of starting a Beastmen army however.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Well now that daemons and warriors are a different armies the chaos gods have to focus all their time on them.. its twice the work so of coarse they just gave up hope on beastmen. Rather they give them horribly horrendous bodies that with their skin tone look just...bad... cause nothing screams chaos more than a pissed off pumba...
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Post by: Sidstyler
I kinda like their mutated-looking feet, it's the WTF musculature that bothers me.
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Post by: Reecius
I think they look like WWF, juiced out roid head bezerker minotaurs with giant axes, which is awesome!
I bet with a darker paint scheme, they will be pleasing to more people.
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Post by: GentlemanGuy
I agree a darker colour scheme would make them look better like the old metal ones colour scheme (dark browns and blacks even going as far as a reddish tinge in the fur)
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Post by: Reecius
Yeah, I think it is the extreme low lighting that turns people off to them.
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Post by: reds8n
Reecius wrote:
The razorgor, I honestly think I could sculpt something better than that.
Better than these beauties ?
With regards to the hooves/lack therefof the new WD, it says
I remember there was a big debate about whether they should have hooves or feet with toes.
Yeah, in the past we've done both but we saw this as an opportunity to really define what a Warhammer Minotaur was like. In Greek myths the Minotaur was very much all man apart from the head, and we took that as our cue. So we made its legs roughly humanoid but gave the feet a cloven appearence by having the toes elongated and splayed out, mirroring that of a real bull's foot.
3
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Started building the Bestigor today.
Kit is quite nice, 5 different bodies, lots of different poses, and rank up nicely. Rather large models as well. Hell, even the standard ranks up, which is a first for me!
More building tomorrow, including Gor, Ungor and the Minotaurs. Will let you know what I think of the assembly. Ungor are to be built as raiders.
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Post by: Railguns
Oh my God. I'm laughing to death at those razorgors. Really? REALLY? Look at that roaring tard at the end! The one next to him is all "durp durp durp". Quick, someone get the picture of the 5 cross-eyed dog in photos that say things like "durr hurr" and "derp derp derp" and replace the dog photos with these guys. Jesus Christ those are rediculous. Are they literally making the Beastmen a joke army?
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Post by: Wehrkind
Wow... just... wow. Those almost look like they could be from a 2nd ed. ork army, except they are too silly. If I had seen that picture 2 months ago, I would have called Shop and considered it a funny hoax.
It isn't so funny when it is real, just sad.
Ok... they are still very funny. Do they cause all opponants to swing at Initiative 1 due to laughing hysterically?
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Post by: JOHIRA
Oh FFS...
There is no way that isn't intentional. One goofy sculpt and I can imagine that whoever was in charge of the project just let it slip by. Seeing those others (including the lopsided jaw!) shows whoever was in charge wanted them to look stupid for some reason.
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Post by: LunaHound
JOHIRA wrote:Oh FFS...
There is no way that isn't intentional. One goofy sculpt and I can imagine that whoever was in charge of the project just let it slip by. Seeing those others (including the lopsided jaw!) shows whoever was in charge wanted them to look stupid for some reason.
Im betting its the same sculptor that made the Lizardmen Cold ones
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Post by: Llamahead
Looked at the book and that looks great really looking forward to using it actually. The models however are still at the GW gone silly pricing end of the scale. Thats why I'm using Wargames Factory stuff for most of my new Ungor Raider units.....
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I've had the minotaurss for well over a week now and from the waist up they are fine (the heads are a little 'blocky')
But the musculature below the knees and the splayed flipper feet are just dumb.
I remember there was a big debate about whether they should have hooves or feet with toes.
Yeah, in the past we've done both but we saw this as an opportunity to really define what a Warhammer Minotaur was like. In Greek myths the Minotaur was very much all man apart from the head, and we took that as our cue. So we made its legs roughly humanoid but gave the feet a cloven appearence by having the toes elongated and splayed out, mirroring that of a real bull's foot.
I'm sorry but my family has several dairy farms and my wifes family have several ranches (to make cattle stations understandable to the US dakkaites) and I've never, ever seen a bull (or cow) have splayed hooves like the GW minotaurs.
Also the razorgors are even worse than the pic when you see them in real life
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Post by: skrulnik
LunaHound wrote:Im betting its the same sculptor that made the Lizardmen Cold ones
That would be Jes Goodwin. The guy in charge of miniature design IIRC.
No way in hell he sculpted these. I find it hard to believe he would allow these to be sold.
I am betting he got trumped by a bean-counter.
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Post by: cygnnus
I guess we finally found Nagash's pet puppies!
Wow... Those are right up at the tippy-top of horrible GW sculpts. I thought the Minos were bad (and still do, mind), but wow...
Fortunately, I guess, that means I have some extra money to spend on other stuff. Will not be getting any of those things.
Vale,
JohnS
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Post by: Thorgut
reds8n wrote:[Pictures]
What are those?
Are they prototype Razorgors?
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Post by: Jin
Thorgut wrote:reds8n wrote:[Pictures]
What are those?
Are they prototype Razorgors?
Oh, you can bet your bum those are the real deal.
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Post by: LunaHound
I have a theory on razorgors....
See these were supposed to be the new Orc and Goblin units for the summer campaign , but they saw Beast of Chaos was definitely lacking , so they decided to include these for moral support.
See their silly poses and heads? Reminds you of squig hoppers huh! they'll fit right in...
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Post by: Reecius
reds8n wrote:Reecius wrote:
The razorgor, I honestly think I could sculpt something better than that.
Better than these beauties ?
With regards to the hooves/lack therefof the new WD, it says
Oh. My. God.
That is awesome in it's unbelievable wretchedness!
Those are the worst sculpts I have EVER seen.
Hahahaha, yes, now I can say with total confidence I could sculpt something better!
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Post by: Kiwidru
And razorgor/chariots are one of the better units (stat wise) in the new codex! treason of tzneetch! treason of tzneetch! What twisted strand of fate is this?
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Post by: Alpharius
Scary...
there's more than one of them?
Multiple poses exist?
I don't know what else to say... some pictures really do speak for themselves.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Quite frankly, it's once again the paintjob throwing off the models.
The eyes make far, far too much comedic insight than the rest of the model does.
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Post by: dienekes96
Those razorgors are gold. Gold, Jerry, GOLD!
Thanks for posting those pictures. Hysterical.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
All joking aside, I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. I mean if it weren't for the $$ involved those things have almost turned the corner from 'horrible' to 'holy gak, these are too hilarious not to use'! Almost - Salvage EDIT: Hahahahaha - I can't look at that unit without cracking up! Man!
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Post by: LunaHound
How many ways are there to paint the eyes to make it not look silly?
Now we have the crazed squig look
then there could be the total recall look:
Or the anime look: ( im painting them like this )
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
What the fething feth?
Those Razorggors are just absurdly comical. What's with those eyes? Did anyone in the studio besides the guy who made them and the guy who painted them ever see them before release?
Holy gak...
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Post by: Alpharius
The one on the left manages to take the infamous "GW Leering Tongue Syndrome" to new depths of awful too...
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
There is no image macro for what I am feeling.
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Post by: LunaHound
Dododo
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Post by: Alpharius
Luna - that sums it up nicely!
And, that just made me laugh a bit too loudly a bit too late at night here!!!
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Post by: DictatorGames
It looks like someone is throttling ren and stimpy
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
I disliked the razagor on the site but those are just WAY too funny not to buy... since my army was going to be khorne themed I was going to use a bunch of karanak models for razagors however... those are jsut too funny!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
A friend of mine had this to say on the subject:
"Perhaps they can be viewed as art. In so far as they give us a window into the sculptors unstable mind. And apparent lack of talent... and possibly thumbs."
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Post by: Kiwidru
bwhahahaa @ luna. its like the CEO brought his 6 year old to bring your kid to work day. "i want a model that looks like spongebob just tasered a pokemon in the junk"
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Post by: TBD
WHAT THE HELL are those things in the picture??
They have to be someone's own conversion or whatever. Please tell me this is what those are.
Is that picture from the army book btw? I was browsing through it last week at the GW store, and I must have not noticed it, otherwise I would have laughed at the employees for sure.
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Post by: UltraPrime
You know what I find funny? People jumping to conclusions. Because YOU don't like them, it MUST be a so-called 'bean counter' at fault. I mean, there's no way that anyone likes them, because YOU don't.
Does anyone respect someone's different opinion, or should they just get chased out of town with torches and pitch forks?
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Post by: LunaHound
UltraPrime wrote:You know what I find funny? People jumping to conclusions. Because YOU don't like them, it MUST be a so-called 'bean counter' at fault. I mean, there's no way that anyone likes them, because YOU don't.
Does anyone respect someone's different opinion, or should they just get chased out of town with torches and pitch forks?
True , but sometimes its so obviously ugly , that the only few that finds it attractive can be classified as fetishes.
And so far i didnt see anyone insulted for liking them?
For example im pretty confident that this fish wont turn you on:
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Post by: reds8n
Picture is from the new/about to come out UK WD, these are in/from the beastman army featured in the battle report.
The razorgor were sculpted by Ally Morrison.
Cold ones were done by our lord and saviour Goodwin.
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Post by: LunaHound
I think razorgor is my favorite out of the beastmen release.
If you compare them to squig's cuteness instead of what boars look like , i think they are rather cute like a dog.
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Post by: Da Boss
Wow.
Those have to be the WORST looking sculpts I've seen in I don't know how long. Considering how cool the imagery used to be for Beasts, this is a tragedy. From rules to sculpts this whole release is terrrrrible.
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Post by: JOHIRA
UltraPrime wrote:I mean, there's no way that anyone likes them, because YOU don't.
Not quite. There's no way that anyone likes them because they are OBJECTIVELY BAD.
Does anyone respect someone's different opinion, or should they just get chased out of town with torches and pitch forks?
No one on Dakka is going to chase you out of town with torches or pitch forks, but if you think those razorgors aren't among the worst models GW has ever made and you want your opinion respected, you should probably make some effort to state your controversial opinion persuasively. You don't have to of course, but complaining because the majority doesn't agree with you is probably not going to accomplish much.
Personally I think they're terrible because:
1)They aren't believable.
2)They don't fit the look of the rest of the line.
3)They don't look impressive or threatening.
4)They don't fit the atmosphere of the game as a whole.
5)There is absolutely no reason for them to look the way they do.
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Post by: UltraPrime
JOHIRA wrote:UltraPrime wrote:I mean, there's no way that anyone likes them, because YOU don't.
Not quite. There's no way that anyone likes them because they are OBJECTIVELY BAD.
Does anyone respect someone's different opinion, or should they just get chased out of town with torches and pitch forks?
No one on Dakka is going to chase you out of town with torches or pitch forks, but if you think those razorgors aren't among the worst models GW has ever made and you want your opinion respected, you should probably make some effort to state your controversial opinion persuasively. You don't have to of course, but complaining because the majority doesn't agree with you is probably not going to accomplish much.
Personally I think they're terrible because:
1)They aren't believable.
2)They don't fit the look of the rest of the line.
3)They don't look impressive or threatening.
4)They don't fit the atmosphere of the game as a whole.
5)There is absolutely no reason for them to look the way they do.
I never said I liked them, so no persuading argument needed. The point I was trying to make was just because you don't like them, it's not because they were a mistake. The main argument against them is that they 'slipped through the cracks' at GW design. I'm just saying that that is really unlikely, and they were actually approved before relese. Radical opinion, I know, but I can dislike them without trying to make unreasonable justifications.
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Post by: JOHIRA
UltraPrime wrote:The main argument against them is that they 'slipped through the cracks' at GW design. I'm just saying that that is really unlikely, and they were actually approved before relese. Radical opinion, I know, but I can dislike them without trying to make unreasonable justifications.
That's a fair enough opinion, and I agree that they probably were approved. I also think whoever approved them should never work in this industry again.
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Post by: Da Boss
It's possible they could appeal to kids more than mature gamers, perhaps?
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Post by: LunaHound
Da Boss wrote:It's possible they could appeal to kids more than mature gamers, perhaps?
Sure if you believe kids now days still watches Timon & Pumba >.>
Or can convince their parents to pay that much on a model ...
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Post by: jullevi
reds8n wrote:The razorgor were sculpted by Ally Morrison.
Cold ones were done by our lord and saviour Goodwin.
Jes did Dark Elf Cold ones, but they were never topic of discussion. Above Razorgor was compared to Lizardmen Cold Ones, which are equally awful and unless I am mistaken, sculpted by Trish Carden (previously known as Trish Morrison). There is only one Razorgor model and the ones you see in White Dwarf are conversions. Aly Morrison is well known of his ability to produce supbar models, such as the Chaos Ogres, Khorngors and Pestigors from the previous Beastmen release...
I don't get this. Morrisons did a metric ton of awesome miniatures under Marauder miniatures some twenty years ago, but it has been mostly downhill for the previous ten years.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
LunaHound wrote:Or can convince their parents to pay that much on a model ...
Lest we forget, that unit of four costs a staggering $100 USD 
In fact, it's that huge price and the obvious inclusion of plastic spawn bits recast in metal that make me stop laughing and instead shake my head ... I like ridiculous things, especially things SO ridiculous that they pass beyond bad and approach good again , but I also know when I'm being ripped off.
- Salvage
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Post by: Kiwidru
its not that we are insulting anyone that likes the molds, and we all have our reasons to dislike them (some more than others). For me its:
1. No other chaos beast unit looks 'goofy', so this one instantly stands out against the army.
2. In a game of war, it is hard to take anything with googly eyes seriously.
3. The basic components of the single model released are so bad that not even conversions by other professionals can make it look decent.
4. Sculptors are professionals who should be praised for excellence and criticized for failure.
5. It distracts me from the Yammed up rules changes, the overpriced unit boxes, the creep towards wackyhammer and all its dice mongering and rules lawyering, and the lack of any rare models which are collectively viewed as "must haves" for a competitive army.
6. i am not infallible, and although i once lumped the minotaur into the "ZomgWtf" category with this little guy, upon seeing it in person i thought the sprues were better than the pictorial.
7. It is *Much* harder to do your own conversions on a solid metal lump than on individual plastic sprues.
8. I laugh to keep from crying
All in all i think everyone commenting so far would have preferred the Razorgor be released more like the Chaos Spawn box: 2 generic torsos and a boatload of optional spikes/legs/heads...so the individual could decide how autistic (No offense to autistic people) they wanted their alpha predators to be
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Post by: Wehrkind
I wonder if they will be the anti-Spawn unit: terrible kit, but fantastic rules.
Maybe someone at GW thought "Well, the Spawn were a big failure, so maybe the contrapositive will work!" If only he had not fallen asleep in logic class, he would have predicted the error of his ways.
Dear god... spending 25$ a pop on a model like that... it just defies the imagination.
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Post by: Therion
Well I kept repeating myself about this subject already back in the days of Portent.net. Gary Morley and Aly & Trish Morrison sculpt (in my opinion) absolutely horrible miniatures by GW's modern standards. Trish usually gets to sculpt the animals and monsters and has (in my opinion) miserably failed every single time apart from the unrealistic and weird-but-still-cool-looking Carnosaur. The other two can't sculpt faces without making females look like transvestites or monsters, and the way they pose the models are straight from the early 1990's. I believe the only model by either of them that is still used and generally liked is Prince Tyrion which seems to have been a one hit wonder. The reason they have been able to keep their jobs (in my opinion) has to have something to do with their long standing work history at the company instead of the actual results.
People were predicting a massive 'Beastfail' already when they heard about the sculptor lineup for the release, and although I wouldn't call all of the models absolutely useless they certainly aren't even close to what I've come to expect from Citadel Miniatures. Juan Diaz, Jes Goodwin and Alex Hedström are all household names I hold to a very high regard. Seb Perbet and Brian Nelson are very talented too, although Nelson's work is sometimes a bit more inspired than some other times. Feel free to disagree, and I'm sure there are exceptions to everything.
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Post by: fellblade
LunaHound wrote: For example im pretty confident that this fish wont turn you on:
On the contrary. Thank you, Luna; I now have the inspiration for my Jabbersclyth. Much better than the plastic-toad-with-bat-wings I was thinking of.
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Post by: Alpharius
Therion wrote:Well I kept repeating myself about this subject already back in the days of Portent.net. Gary Morley and Aly & Trish Morrison sculpt (in my opinion) absolutely horrible miniatures by GW's modern standards. Trish usually gets to sculpt the animals and monsters and has (in my opinion) miserably failed every single time apart from the unrealistic and weird-but-still-cool-looking Carnosaur. The other two can't sculpt faces without making females look like transvestites or monsters, and the way they pose the models are straight from the early 1990's. I believe the only model by either of them that is still used and generally liked is Prince Tyrion which seems to have been a one hit wonder. The reason they have been able to keep their jobs (in my opinion) has to have something to do with their long standing work history at the company instead of the actual results.
People were predicting a massive 'Beastfail' already when they heard about the sculptor lineup for the release, and although I wouldn't call all of the models absolutely useless they certainly aren't even close to what I've come to expect from Citadel Miniatures. Juan Diaz, Jes Goodwin and Alex Hedström are all household names I hold to a very high regard. Seb Perbet and Brian Nelson are very talented too, although Nelson's work is sometimes a bit more inspired than some other times. Feel free to disagree, and I'm sure there are exceptions to everything.
That just about sums everything up, actually.
And OF COURSE opinions will differ.
But really, these are some very, very bad models.
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Post by: Da Boss
I think the fact that it moves in units really annoys me too. A huge monster boar I can get behind, I suppose. But it should be a lone beast. Especially if it's that bloody spikey!
Agreed on Trish Morrison, Aly Morrison and ESPECIALLY Gary Morely. Some absolute rubbish being produced by that lot at times.
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Post by: LunaHound
Im going to glue Gor head onto storm vermin bodies to make bestigor -_-
Im sort of blah that the chariot costs more than the new HE lion chariot ( by 25% more on canadian website )
Also they sculpt ONE new shaman model while keeping the decade old shaman , forcing people to pay $6 more.
If anything , i see this Beastmen release as a customer test for so many things ...
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I wish GW had taken the chance to add in some Gnolls and the like to the range. Just because I'd like access to some nice plastic Gnolls for D'n'D, and it fits the theme well enough...
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Post by: GentlemanGuy
OH MY GOD I do not believe it. When I got use to one model thinking it would look better if they chopped the tail off and now THIS XO there is no way to make these guys look any better I swear to god almighty. if these were released at the same time as the Dragon ogres i would understand but NOW good god
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Post by: LunaHound
Da Boss wrote:I wish GW had taken the chance to add in some Gnolls and the like to the range. Just because I'd like access to some nice plastic Gnolls for D'n'D, and it fits the theme well enough...
I not sure what Gnolls are , but they look like wolves? im using these:
Doom Bull 
Mino w/ Great weapon:
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