I thought that warriors came with a 4+ save as standard?

Lukus83 wrote:I thought that warriors came with a 4+ save as standard?

They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

Davor wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:I thought that warriors came with a 4+ save as standard?

They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

The sole exception to that rule being the Hive Tyrant, which can still upgrade to a 2+ armour save. But of course, you pay through the nose for it.

Mahu wrote:I already equipped my Warriors with Deathspitters and Scything Talons based on the Rumor. They will die too easily in combat, but in cover with the equivalent of IG Heavy Bolters? Yes please.

What's that saying about great minds?

I have glued my deathspitter/scytal/adrenal gland warriors together with extreme confidence. Strength 5 shooting on arrival from pod is nice, strength 5 CC is vital to transport downing. I don't want my troops choices trying to get involved in ultra-deadly CCs, especially with their toughness/wounds situation. I'll charge transports, other troops, or wimpy support units.... otherwise, I'll just nestle in to cover and unload mass strength 5 shooting.

As far as T4 with no eternal warrior is concerned... The army has so many multi-wound models with T6 that wreck shop, is anyone going to be able to be flinging missiles and meltas at warriors all day? What are you killing the three mawlocs with? Or in a foot/drop hybrid nid list, what are you killing my T6 hive guard/tyrant guard/hive tyrants with? CC is likely a much more dangerous place for warriors than shooting. Unless the rest of your army consists of single wound models.

RxGhost wrote:You see, when a mommy Trygon and a daddy Trygon love each other a whole lot...

RX, your posts are always so damn funny....

Why the Mawlocs? For 30 points more, the Trygon Prime has;

WS 5 compared to WS 3
6 attacks compared to 3 attacks
Synapse
Shadow in the Warp

Just out of curiosity , what do people recommend to be used to convert Tervigon?

A carnifex?
or a Trygon?

I think you need both kits to assemble a Tervigon. It's what I've heard, YMMV, etc.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Why the Mawlocs? For 30 points more, the Trygon Prime has;

WS 5 compared to WS 3
6 attacks compared to 3 attacks
Synapse
Shadow in the Warp

You forgot the Trygon has re-roll to hits, Fleet and a ranged attack in the form of Bio-electric Field (amplified for the Alpha). The Trygon Alpha has another 40 point premium above the 30 you mentioned though.

But the Mawloc of course has the S6 AP2 Large Blast upon entry, Hit & Run and can reburrow.

So, what do you use for the 'hand' on a warrior that's supposed to hold the bonesword? Perhaps a scything talon limb might work, but even then you'd need to do some putty work to link the two. It sounds like it would be worth it, though.

warpcrafter wrote:So, what do you use for the 'hand' on a warrior that's supposed to hold the bonesword? Perhaps a scything talon limb might work, but even then you'd need to do some putty work to link the two. It sounds like it would be worth it, though.

I would shave the "gun" from any decent size bioweapons into something sharp with xacto knife . and call it bone sword .

warpcrafter wrote:So, what do you use for the 'hand' on a warrior that's supposed to hold the bonesword? Perhaps a scything talon limb might work, but even then you'd need to do some putty work to link the two. It sounds like it would be worth it, though.

I'm thinking Scything Talon arm, the carapace from the Ripper from the MC upgrade sprue for the hand guard, and plasticard for the sword. Bit of Green Stuff to make the fingers look better, and it should be good.

Redemption wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Why the Mawlocs? For 30 points more, the Trygon Prime has;

WS 5 compared to WS 3
6 attacks compared to 3 attacks
Synapse
Shadow in the Warp

You forgot the Trygon has re-roll to hits, Fleet and a ranged attack in the form of Bio-electric Field (amplified for the Alpha). The Trygon Alpha has another 40 point premium above the 30 you mentioned though.

But the Mawloc of course has the S6 AP2 Large Blast upon entry, Hit & Run and can reburrow.

Oh ^^, I didn't know the Mawloc had that shooting ability. Well, I can understand the reburrow and Hit/Run synergy better now.....yeah for 160 that seems like a deal.

I've been thinking, since the bonesword is supposed to be slightly wider at the end than the handle, why not just take a scything talon limb, cut the talon off at the hand, shave the bulky part off, cut the sharp end flat and glue it back on? The idea Aduro had about using the ripper carapace for a hand guard is excellent. It also re-uses something that would otherwise go into my bitz box, saving some money in the process. Three nine-strong units of warriors with a pair of boneswords and a pair of scything talons being rammed down the enemy's throat via drop spores sounds like too much fun to pass up! There is an interesting article on BOLS about using a drop spore army, which has me even more anxious to use the Tyranids than before.

Seems weird that they didnt release a tyranid pod model. It's one of the more striking list additions and could prove quite difficult to make a model for one from scratch or conversions?

Maybe it'll be part of the Tyranid "second wave" releases.

Orangecoke wrote:Seems weird that they didnt release a tyranid pod model. It's one of the more striking list additions and could prove quite difficult to make a model for one from scratch or conversions?

I think it's much easier than any of the scratchbuilt marine drop pods I've seen. Start with any hollow ball of the appropriate size, and a semi rigid skin. Draw a circl around the equator. Draw six lines from the pole to the equator. Cut along these lines and 'peel' them down over the other half. Texture inside and out as you like, pour water effects inside, and a bit down each peeled section. Probably put them on bases of appropriate size.

We did some of these out of pingpong balls for the old Warzone game to represent necromutants dropping out of pods.

I have glued my deathspitter/scytal/adrenal gland warriors together with extreme confidence. Strength 5 shooting on arrival from pod is nice, strength 5 CC is vital to transport downing. I don't want my troops choices trying to get involved in ultra-deadly CCs, especially with their toughness/wounds situation. I'll charge transports, other troops, or wimpy support units.... otherwise, I'll just nestle in to cover and unload mass strength 5 shooting.

Exactly what I thought. My area is saturated with massed Nob squads, Black Templars, Assault Terminators, IG shooting, and Logan lead Terminator Scoring units.

I just don't see Warriors rushing towards the enemy a good idea.

I had a question about the Acid Blood ability. In the summary it doesn't list that it only affects CC wounds or has any kind of range. Does Acid Blood really have an effect on any model that wounded the creature? Can his acidic blood squirt 72" across the table to wound a Broadside?

It seemed like the kind of ability that should only affect CC wounds (logically anyway, thinking about the acidic blood in Aliens), but the part about glancing vehicles got me wondering. Can anyone with access to an actual book (and a proficiency in German) confirm that one way or another?

Thanks much!

it only works in CC

Selfless Blurb here!

Chapterhouse Studios is already working on Boneswords, Lash Whips and Spore Pods, they should be out in a month (6 weeks at the latest)! These will be affordable and we will also be working on conversion kits for the missing Tyranid Units as well.


Edited by moderator. No need to shout.

Wow CH , any investment opportunities for your company?
You guys really pick up where GW missed!

Mahu wrote:

I have glued my deathspitter/scytal/adrenal gland warriors together with extreme confidence. Strength 5 shooting on arrival from pod is nice, strength 5 CC is vital to transport downing. I don't want my troops choices trying to get involved in ultra-deadly CCs, especially with their toughness/wounds situation. I'll charge transports, other troops, or wimpy support units.... otherwise, I'll just nestle in to cover and unload mass strength 5 shooting.

Exactly what I thought. My area is saturated with massed Nob squads, Black Templars, Assault Terminators, IG shooting, and Logan lead Terminator Scoring units.

I just don't see Warriors rushing towards the enemy a good idea.

I hear what you guys are saying. I have Warriors in the ST/Adr/DS pattern in the reserves list I'm tinkering with.

But to play devil's advocate, I'd say the same thing you're talking about applies to CC. Will the Nobz go after the Warriors or MCs? And it's interesting to note that bonesword Warriors would likely be as deadly or deadlier against the Nobz than a Tyrant of the same points value thanks to all the bonesword attacks and Ld checks vs. ID. Four charging adrenal bonesword Warriors almost kill 5 Terminators (4.8, I think) before the Terminators even swing. When you start running the numbers, they're pretty impressive against hard targets.

Getting the jump is obviously the thing, and that seems to be a theme throughout the army. Rather than boosting armor or T to help Tyranids in CC, Cruddace took the approach of boosting I values and granting almost armywide access to furious charge. Kill 'em before they even swing seems to be the message. I think that's going to be tricky to say the least, but IMO it's pretty fair to say that there's much more offensive upside of Warriors in CC if only you can harness it. Winged Warriors screened by Gargoyles might be something to try. As might outflanking Winged Warriors (granted by a Tyrant).

Chapterhouse wrote:Selfless Blurb here!

Chapterhouse Studios is already working on Boneswords, Lash Whips and Spore Pods, they should be out in a month (6 weeks at the latest)! These will be affordable and we will also be working on conversion kits for the missing Tyranid Units as well

Well there goes more money.....

I have xmas cash waiting in the wings for the rhino/pred heresy conversion kits too . This week or next right?

Redemption wrote:

Davor wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:I thought that warriors came with a 4+ save as standard?

They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

The sole exception to that rule being the Hive Tyrant, which can still upgrade to a 2+ armour save. But of course, you pay through the nose for it.

Wow I must have missed that the HT can be upgraded to a 2+. Thanks for pointing that out.

The MKI Rhino kit is done (just not on the site yet). The Predator Armored kit will be in this week I hope. Ill have them all on the website this weekend.

Irony: Our genestealer alternative head bits, we have been showing and working on for 2 months now, GWs Ymargl Stealers look almost the same. We have proof we were working on these before anyone had photos of the GW ones in the codex . Lucky us (heh, should we send a C&D to GW?).

These should be ready in 2-3 weeks.

Chapterhouse wrote:The MKI Rhino kit is done (just not on the site yet). The Predator Armored kit will be in this week I hope. Ill have them all on the website this weekend.

Irony: Our genestealer alternative head bits, we have been showing and working on for 2 months now, GWs Ymargl Stealers look almost the same. We have proof we were working on these before anyone had photos of the GW ones in the codex . Lucky us (heh, should we send a C&D to GW?).

These should be ready in 2-3 weeks.

Sweet, looking forward to the heresy marine stuff.

Ymargl strain has always had feeder tendrils for heads IIRC...whereas you have teeth (that look much better).

Definitely work on a Terv conversion kit as well as an Alpha Warrior conversion kit, as both will be competitive choices.

Orangecoke wrote:So warriors can somewhat reliably make it into close combat?

With Spore Pods or Wings...possibly, if they can survive close range fire fights (while they cost as much as a terminator, they completely lack the survability). Otherwise they lack fleet and leaping so they are not going to outmaneuver your opponent.

I am guessing that if you see warriors, they will more often be serving as a firebase. Accordingly. deathspitters will still likely be the predominant build, primarily due to the higher strength.

Davor wrote:They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

Arby strikes again!!!

I'm guessing Winged Warriors are more expensive than regular Warriors because they didn't realise that a good round of Bolter fire from a squad of Marines will annihilate them.

Is there any word on what options Tyrant Guard are going to be able to take?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Davor wrote:They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

Arby strikes again!!!

I'm guessing Winged Warriors are more expensive than regular Warriors because they didn't realise that a good round of Bolter fire from a squad of Marines will annihilate them.

But at 5pts more for wings with all same options (just worst armor) they'll see combat sooner than footsloggers. I'm going to run 6 with an Alpha Warrior in a pod with 5 DS and Alpha kitted for cc.

Depending on where they drop they could make their cost back easily (and also give another SotW model just to mock psykers).


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Darth Bob wrote:Is there any word on what options Tyrant Guard are going to be able to take?

Come with Rending Claws/Scytals. May replace Scytalons with a Lashwhip and/or Bonesword.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Davor wrote:They do, but winged warriors are a 5+. Non of the armour values can be changed. We can't buy extra amrour any more.

Arby strikes again!!!

I'm guessing Winged Warriors are more expensive than regular Warriors because they didn't realise that a good round of Bolter fire from a squad of Marines will annihilate them.

Rapid firing: 20 bolter shots. 14 hits (rounding up). 7 wounds. Two dead and a wound. If I rounded in the tyranids favor there would be one less wound. Tell, me how is a good round of bolter fire annihilating a winged unit? They manage to kill only a single regular warrior and two winged ones. You know what that same round does to terminators? 20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, one failed save. A terminator is 40 points base, a warrior is 30 points base. They stand up better to small arms than terminators (which are specifically designed to do that).

I don't understand your point. They are vulnerable to high strength weaponry like missile launchers and battle canons. They are NOT vulnerable to small arms fire. The winged unit suffers marginally more, but for that you get a unit that is tactically very difficult ever manage to rapid fire at at all and can decimate that same marine squad once it enters combat. It will also do so typically turn two. It's hardly a bad unit for 35 points per model.

It's also not arbitrary, the previous edition had the same carapace limitations with wings.

ShumaGorath wrote:... the previous edition had the same arbitrary carapace limitations with wings.

Fixed the quote.

Yes, they are more vulnerable to larger weapons like Krak Missiles and the like, but 30+ points for a 5+ save? GW overcost things with multiple wounds and tend to ignore that wounds alone do not maketh tough units. Toughness and Armour Save play a big role, and T4/Sv5+ isn't helping anyone.

Fixed the quote.

Oh, I'm sorry, here I thought the extended carapace was bulky and heavy, something thats bad for flying. Like it says in the book. Guess a somewhat flavorful restriction is totally arbitrary when its been around for years.

Yes, they are more vulnerable to larger weapons like Krak Missiles and the like, but 30+ points for a 5+ save? GW overcost things with multiple wounds and tend to ignore that wounds alone do not maketh tough units. Toughness and Armour Save play a big role, and T4/Sv5+ isn't helping anyone.

They are also vastly less vulnerable to plasma weapons, and any incarnation of an ap2 blast or flamer template below str 8 (mawlacs, plasma cannons, tzeentch flamers, any and all power weapons). They have different uses. With boneswords they would demolish virtually every space marine unit they could touch (if they got the assault they would statistically kill an assault terminator squad in 2 rounds, hell they kick bloodcrushers too). I really don't see how they are bad. Glass canons yes, but they aren't there to get shot at and there are plenty of methods for delivering them safely. A lot of what you pay for isn't resilience, it's damage output.

Well I ordered my Plasma Hatcher toy set's today that come with an excellent alien looking egg that is 7" tall. When it's painted it looks perfect. And it was only $7 each. I'm super excited and i think i've got my start on the army i'm going to be tweaking

All the talk in this thread about Spore Pods when there doesn't appear to be an official GW kit for them at the moment is leaving me with the distinct feeling we're going to be seeing an awful lot of "smeg" (with apologies to Red Dwarf) on game tables for years to come. Remember seeing trash, sometimes literally trash, used as Space Marine Drop Pods on game tables for years until September of last year when we finally got an official and affordable Drop Pod model? Now we can look forward to that same level of "visual enhancement" in Tyranid armies as well for months or years till there's a proper model for Spore Pods. Those of us who love the visual aspect of the hobby are in for a real treat again with drink bottles and other garbage adorning game tables at the local store. Joy.

It could be a possible summer release. In the meantime suck it up.

I plan to get some of those plasma egg toy things. They look like good, cheap alternatives to making my own (or attempting to).

sirisaacnuton wrote:I had a question about the Acid Blood ability. In the summary it doesn't list that it only affects CC wounds or has any kind of range. Does Acid Blood really have an effect on any model that wounded the creature? Can his acidic blood squirt 72" across the table to wound a Broadside?

It seemed like the kind of ability that should only affect CC wounds (logically anyway, thinking about the acidic blood in Aliens), but the part about glancing vehicles got me wondering. Can anyone with access to an actual book (and a proficiency in German) confirm that one way or another?

Thanks much!

It is CC only. The glancing hit on a 4+ against vehicles is for Walkers.

Fateweaver wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:Is there any word on what options Tyrant Guard are going to be able to take?

Come with Rending Claws/Scytals. May replace Scytalons with a Lashwhip and/or Bonesword.

They can't take both a Lashwhip and a Bonesword.

Lighter armor on winged `Nids is anything BUT arbitrary. Not only was it around in the current version of the codex, but the same kind of theme fills the entire game line. Scount Sentinals, Terminators, Land Speeder vs Land Raider, ect. You get to be extra fast, or you get to be extra durable, rarely do you get to be both.

Besides, I thought this was the 5th ed, the land of everyone gets cover saves, where ap3 is supposed to be all but useless?

Chapterhouse wrote:The MKI Rhino kit is done (just not on the site yet). The Predator Armored kit will be in this week I hope. Ill have them all on the website this weekend.

Irony: Our genestealer alternative head bits, we have been showing and working on for 2 months now, GWs Ymargl Stealers look almost the same. We have proof we were working on these before anyone had photos of the GW ones in the codex . Lucky us (heh, should we send a C&D to GW?).

These should be ready in 2-3 weeks.

I now know what I'm going to use to make these special genestealers! Before, I was just going to use the heads for my B-lord's bodyguard.

Aduro wrote:Lighter armor on winged `Nids is anything BUT arbitrary. Not only was it around in the current version of the codex, but the same kind of theme fills the entire game line. Scount Sentinals, Terminators, Land Speeder vs Land Raider, ect. You get to be extra fast, or you get to be extra durable, rarely do you get to be both.

Besides, I thought this was the 5th ed, the land of everyone gets cover saves, where ap3 is supposed to be all but useless?

no kidding, fly them in with a squad of the new cheap gargoyles. I didn't like the loss of EW, but they are better against small arms fire which is what everyone was complaining about. On a related note, carnifexes and hive tyrants were never supposed to be cheap and toned down, but the big nasties of the army. I'm just finally happy to have lots of good solid choices so I can make a variety of army lists like never before.

Hulksmash wrote:Well I ordered my Plasma Hatcher toy set's today that come with an excellent alien looking egg that is 7" tall. When it's painted it looks perfect. And it was only $7 each. I'm super excited and i think i've got my start on the army i'm going to be tweaking

Yeah, they look like a really good find.

Look forward to Chapterhouse's Spore pods.

Just had the joy of having a 9 man squad of Tyranid Warriors deepstrike with wings next to a Lictor.

GG.


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edit:

For Clarification we were just messing around with vassal. There are no point values.

Also its impossible to deal with 2 tetrafexes and its horribly broken.


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Further CLarification:
I was playing Pedro Kantor Sternguard Spam we figured hellfire would be pretty devastating.

Then we tried orks.

Um unless you are taking 3 squads of lootas to deal wth Monstrous creatures the orks get pretty boned by boneswords( see what I did there).

Also its impossible to deal with 2 tetrafexes and its horribly broken.

Whats a tetrafex?

Um unless you are taking 3 squads of lootas to deal wth Monstrous creatures the orks get pretty boned by boneswords( see what I did there).

Why would the bone swords do much to orks? With the exception of boss squads or squad nobz nothing has a good armor save or multiple wounds.

Why did the content get deleted?

Happygrunt wrote:Why did the content get deleted?

So that people would not write accurate reviews like this -
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=44175&postcount=397

So that people would not write accurate reviews like this -

If by accurate you mean inaccurate, whiny, and hyperbolic.

Tyrant Guard - No appreciable change, but more expensive, and with the increased Tyrant cost even more "mandatory" for walkers. Anything with "Tyrant" in the name for HQ got a raw deal with this dex.

No appreciable changes except the improvement of it's base weapons, options, and rules. I guess something doesn't change unless one of it's base stats change.

Trygon / Trygon Prime - Trygon Prime is overcosted for what you get IMO. Trygon is cool but no assault out of deep strike blows. The tunnels are ultra gay. Like, horrible bad useless crap. The odds and fact that you can't do it the turn he arrives and the fact that you can't assault out of them, and the fact that an enemy can just go DRIVE ON TOP OF THEM to shut them down, and many other things makes them look like a rule that was written to be cool but failed on the practicality front. Dumb da dumb dumb dummmmmb.

I think the Fex is actually probably better than the Trygon, just b/c he's better at cracking open vehicles, and can fight all the things you'd ever want the Trygon to fight in combat. The only monster in the book that's really built to tackle things like Terminators and Nob Bikers and such is the Swarmlord, so ... yeah ... it's not like you'd buy the Trygon to beat up people in combat ... everything else does it for less. You wouldn't buy him over a drop pod fex to beat up vehicles in combat (or even a non drop pod fex), b/c the fex beats up vehicles in combat better. Basically, the Trygon is feggin' bad, but that doesn't mean he won't get good use against opponents who really aren't well built to handle OMG 6w monsters.

Mawloc - Cheap Trygon with weaker rules, and as far as I can tell is killed by DS'ing into impassable. I suppose he'd be cool for popping infantry squads in the open, including marines/termies, who aren't in their vehicles ... but ... I'm trying to make this clear ... you won't have trouble with any of those anyway. Your only "need" will be to dedicate points and slots to opening transports. You don't need units that kill infantry in the open as their paid-for "specials" like the Mawloc's.

Another gem. "The trygon isn't built against terminators the only good unit for that is the swarmlord and its bad". "The Mawlac isn't built for killing anything your army can't already kill it's bad". And here I thought it killed terminators.

Tervigon, which is "meant" to be combined Fex + Trygon, is a great unit that you'll see lots of and in GW's perfect world requires a $100 investment to build. Smart people will use spare gaunt pieces and green stuff, and a Fex.

Pyrovore - Cool new model, horrifically bad stats. Biovore stats also being bad means most players will go "um, why would I buy that? Monsters are better AND cooler!"

Venomthrope - Cool new model, horrifically bad due to extreme fragility. Again, why the new model GW but crap stats?

Ahh the cognitive dissonance of the whiny GW conspiracy theorist.

Sorry I meant Terranofex(?) I dunno I wasnt playing tyranids just going through the motions of fighting them with pedro.

Tyranofex.

Yeah he kept giving them feel no pain. That was not fun.

Hollismason wrote:Yeah he kept giving them feel no pain. That was not fun.

Ouch, yeah at that point I would just gun down the tervigon and try and ignore the bigger bug. Does feel no pain work on ap 1 or 2 weapons? Those are weapons against which "no armor save may ever be taken".

Shuma: AP 1-2 ignores FNP mate.
So its a case of loading out on it and going to town against it.

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

JD21290 wrote:Shuma: AP 1-2 ignores FNP mate.
So its a case of loading out on it and going to town against it.

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

Thats what I thought. The FNP tervigons are still going to be a bit of an issue aside from my drop squads though, and I'll have to figure out a way to bring them down quick and early if I want to maintain my current army composition. Alpha striking two to three of them on the first turn could certainly be one way, at nearly 200 points a piece a 5 tervy army is going to be thin on other units.

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

Actually if it has regeneration it will statistically beat a tac squad with a fist (as the number of wounds dealt vs wounds regenerated reach parity at 4 wounds, and the tervigon/tyrranofex begins to regenerate more at 5). Though that fight will also take all week, and a tyrranofex with regen and the capsule canon is just shy of 300 points while the tervy is just shy of 230 with regen.

Yeah it does, I had Sternguard tho :(. Overall just kind of messing around with the army and playing against the rumours and some bits and pieces its pretty tough. This was done on vassal.

The Tervigon is pretty hilariously LOL GG to play against.

We played 2k I used a basic Vulkan / Pedro list a few times and lost all 3 games. Then played a Ork game which I lost.

Out of all the units Please to be killing the Tervigons IMMEDIATELY. ASAP. We used the Drop Pods from marines as spores and some miscelaneous stuff for the new creatures.

Being Able to make the Tervigon a troops choice was probably the single worst idea out of the entire codex. 2 units of gaunts w/ nothing really and 2 of these is horribly efficient.

Meatball is back as well. Gaunts Screen Warriors Warriors Screen Tervigon Tervigons. Meanwhile 60 Gargoyles fly forward with feel no pain.

Yeah it does, I had Sternguard tho :(. Overall just kind of messing around with the army and playing against the rumours and some bits and pieces its pretty tough. This was done on vassal.

I run my sterns with 3 combi meltas, 2 meltas, and 5 combi plasmas. 5 melta shots, 3.33 hits, 2.79 wounds. 10 plasma shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds. All together thats 6.12 wounds that ignore fnp and armor saves, thus burning through regen. Then again it's also a 340 point squad killing at most a 300 point tyrranofex. The squad was originally meant to deal with 5 man assault termy squads in land raiders first turn, combat squad the melta and kill the raider, then fire 10 plasma into the terms for 2-3 dead (making the squads points back and disabling a hammer).

The Tervigon is pretty hilariously LOL GG to play against.

The tervy worries me more than the fex, it's comparably durable (if it gives itself FNP) and is much cheaper and easier to utilize en masse.

Out of all the units Please to be killing the Tervigons IMMEDIATELY. ASAP. We used the Drop Pods from marines as spores and some miscelaneous stuff for the new creatures.

Agreed, the tervigons are giant point sinks which generate their reason for being purchased as the game progresses. The more that can be killed early the less effective an investment they get to be.

Shuma: Start taking a vindi with you
May not seem like much, but those pie plates will not only eat away its wounds, but should be enough to kill anything it spawns aswell.

Failing that, a dev squad with 4 plasma cannons should do the job.




Im having to change my BA's alot to work against new nids.
The heavy combat style of my army wont work since ill be outnumbered that badly, even with alot of MC's lol.

Im now thinking:

Troop: 795

10 tac marines: plasma gun, heavy bolter - 215
Razorback (heavy bolters): 50
10 tac marines: plasma gun, heavy bolter - 215
Razorback (heavy bolters): 50
10 tac marines: plasma gun, heavy bolter - 215
Razorback (heavy bolters): 50

Heavy: 605

5 Devs: 4 plasma cannons - 215
5 Devs: 4 plasma cannons - 215
5 Devs: 4 heavy bolters - 175

1,400 base for an army.
Should contain enough firepower to drop whats needed.

27 bolters.
8 plasma cannons.
3 plasma guns.
10 heavy bolters.

Might start to build on that, want to see how it goes though.

I'm thinking deathleaper looks fun to play.

Seems a fair beast stat wise, lots of fun and useful special rules and his ability to lower any ONE characters LD by -d3 should be great at shutting down psykers, especially combined with all the things that get SotW.

The number one thing I found out playing it was that it makes you have some incredibly difficult fire choices simply because of the over abundance of threats and how quickly they show up especially the Trigons.

The first turn pretty much makes the game. I don't really even know what you would do against a Deep Striking Army that the majority of it shows up on Turn 2 in Pods and through special deployment.

Oh and Tyrants having the "CREEEEEEEEEEEED" ability is horrible to face as well.


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edit:
The first two turns of the game I mean, every game turn 3 80 percent of my army was in CC.


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edit:
I dont see how some armies will actually beat Tyranids period, especially Necrons and Tau. I really cannot see any build of necrons having a wing and prayer against a Tyranid army. Their big guys die to a 180 point squad of Gargoyles.

I dont see how some armies will actually beat Tyranids period, especially Necrons and Tau. I really cannot see any build of necrons having a wing and prayer against a Tyranid army. Their big guys die to a 180 point squad of Gargoyles.

Agreed. Five tervigon builds are going to be the new d-bag maneuver in this game. That said there wasn't much tau or crons could do against nob bikers or assault termy squarms either.

Flat out if you actually look at the codex it seems they actualyl sat down and said " Well what are some of the dominant builds? " lets give them specific defenses against those.

Thunderwolves = Boneswords , Gargoyles w/ Poison, Termagaunts w/ POISON, hell everything has poison.

Psykers = Deathleaper , Shadow of the warp, Deep Striking Shadow of the Warp multiple ways.

Nobs = Lots and lots of instadeath ST8 or higher stuff

Mechanized = Tyrannt Guard etc..

Horde = Big guys can get toxic miasma / yo ucan out horde horde

AV14 = Monstrous Creatures w/ rerolls / 2 Creature w/ ST10 shots

Tau = Umm yeah I dont think this has to be said really. I mean they now have drop pods.

Necrons = GG next map Gargoyles kill everything in the entire army except a monolith. Sure they wound on a six with their ST5 weapons which wound T6 on a 5 or 6 any way. Um Deciever and that other guy can die to a 20 man 120 point Termagaunt squad.

Demons = Yes, demons. Fateweaver does do gak with a LD 7 and 3d6 psychic test. Oh and all your awesome Bloodcrushers get swarmed with creatures with poison. Poison is even more fun especially with the abundance of furious charge giving the small guys st 4 and a majority of demons having toughness 4 and a low armour save.

Eldar = Hurray Tyranids now have incredibly efficient AV12 antiarmour. Drop Pods , Poison on well everything. Oh and Eldrad can have -3 to his leadership. The big thing is everything having poison. It makes tyranids even more effective in hand to hand versus eldar now. If your str is the same as their toughness you get a reroll. Everything in the army can basically get a reroll to wound in hand to hand versus eldar. Hurrrrray.

Space Marines Vulcan = My squads can get Feel No Pain. Hurray H. Flamer Hurray. Oh and now it has AV12 effective anti tank. Hope you mix in some plasma somewhere.

Its really like they sat down and said " Lets give the tyranids the ability to fight most builds out there we see".

The only army I see that is actualyl really good against Tyranids is space wolves its like the two guys were working together and putting in counters versus counters against each other. Its pretty evenly matched with Imperial Guard as well.

Also, anyone else think its funny that the Tervigon is 100 dollars to build. It's like they did it on purpose.

Also, anyone else think its funny that the Tervigon is 100 dollars to build. It's like they did it on purpose.

Meh, any cross monstrous creature conversion was going to come in at a high price. Funny how none of the new models except the hive guard are particularly stellar in the codex.

Demons = Yes, demons. Fateweaver does do gak with a LD 7 and 3d6 psychic test. Oh and all your awesome Bloodcrushers get swarmed with creatures with poison. Poison is even more fun especially with the abundance of furious charge giving the small guys st 4 and a majority of demons having toughness 4 and a low armour save.

Inv saves all round, a few units have normal armour (3+, 4+) aswell.
Letters are high WS, decent initiative and ignore saves.
They have FC and the crushers are higher strength.
Even units of 3 crushers will walk through MC's.

Skull taker causes instant death on a 4+, with an insane WS and strength.

All daemons have eternal warrior, so instant death means nothing to them.


All in all, daemons still get thier inv. saves, no matter what hits them from the nids.

Dont forget that while units like fiends and daemonettes have a low T, they do have an insane initiative and number of rending attacks.
Meaning that theres a good chances 15 daemonettes will slice through most basic nid units without a problem.
Rending also means that armour means nothing aswell.

Daemons wont have it easy, but IMO, they are pretty well kitted out for nid hunting.

Also, even units like horrors aint bad.
S4, AP4 assault 3 comming from each horror.
A unit of 15 will be throwing out enough shots to drop broods quickly.
Flamers will do just as well, but it means getting close, they will also do a nice job on MC's and other armoured creatures.

Daemonettes will make a mockery of 'stealers. At least now though stealers are better for less points so it's NOT such an unfair comparison anymore (IMO Daemonettes were better than stealers in 4th ed and a lot cheaper).

I still see Daemons being a hard army for 'nids to deal with. A pack of 10 Letters with Skulltaker will make a mockery of a Tyrant and 3 Tyrant guard for less points.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new 'Nid codex but it's hardly going to be overpowering, not to mention 5 Tervigons built using a Carnifex/Trygon kit are going to be something only the hardcore will do as that is over $500 in kit just for 5 models.

It's like buying FW but with the ease of plastics.

I can't really see anyone making a $100 Tervigon, not when the picture of them looks like it's only a Carnifex with a pot belly. Granted it was a really poor quality picture, but still...

So, what are peoples thoughts of making the tervy?
By this i mean kits and converting wise

JD21290 wrote:So, what are peoples thoughts of making the tervy?
By this i mean kits and converting wise

It looks like a carnifex with a big belly , im not sure why trygon is required in the conversion o.o

I'm wondering what folks are going to use to build Harpies, myself. T5/4+ Sv? Or did I miss that discussion somewhere in the middle of the Hollismason/Shuma lovefest?

Maybe its someones own interpretation?

I think i might go for an alien queen idea, stolen straight from the film with a fex and some GS.


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Harpy:

Going with a fex body, 2 front arms with barbed's / venoms. (single handed)
Talons behind that.
New style dragon wings.
Head will have to be a fex, but with GS re-sculpt to make it more like the FW big bugs. (armoured top section rather than top of head)

I'm thinking Trygon myself, messing with the tail and head to make it more horizontal, maybe using one of the MANY extra `Fex heads people have sitting around. As I am currently not planning on using a Trygon it should stand out well.

I'm also pondering what someone mentioned in another thread. That is, using my old Armor Cast Malifacter and/or Haruspex. You might have to ask what they Are, but you know what they Arn't.

I wanted to pick them up myself but if you look at the old Tyranid warriors from 2nd edition come with Boneswords etc..

Actually whats funny is with some greenstuff and some minor working on it the very old screamer killer carnifex actually looks very much like a Tervigon start.

So yeah look ye to 2nd edition models for tyranids especially the termagants for devourers.

edit:

I think Daemons( specifically the fateweaver build) will have a difficult time dealing with the new tyranids just like they have difficulty dealing with mass horde armies. Only this time you have mass horde armies that reroll wounds / reroll hits / have feel no pain. Lots of template weapons now as well add in tyranids got a boost in shots with Devourers Drop Pods , the list goes on and on.

Also, all of the tyranid weapons are assault which means they get to fire and assault that's pretty brutal.

Please show me in the Daemon Codex a way to shoot kill a Tyranofex. There's not. You cannot shoot kill this thing nor can you shoot kill a lot of the creatures which means you have to CC kill which means you have to deal with the little niggling guys all around it.



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I wanted to pick them up myself but if you look at the old Tyranid warriors from 2nd edition come with Boneswords etc..

Actually whats funny is with some greenstuff and some minor working on it the very old screamer killer carnifex actually looks very much like a Tervigon start.

So yeah look ye to 2nd edition models for tyranids especially the termagants for devourers.

edit:

I think Daemons( specifically the fateweaver build) will have a difficult time dealing with the new tyranids just like they have difficulty dealing with mass horde armies. Only this time you have mass horde armies that reroll wounds / reroll hits / have feel no pain. Lots of template weapons now as well add in tyranids got a boost in shots with Devourers Drop Pods , the list goes on and on.

Also, all of the tyranid weapons are assault which means they get to fire and assault that's pretty brutal.

Please show me in the Daemon Codex a way to shoot kill a Tyranofex. There's not. You cannot shoot kill this thing nor can you shoot kill a lot of the creatures which means you have to CC kill which means you have to deal with the little niggling guys all around it.

Hollis: Assault weps dont mean alot mate if you dont have the initiative to strike 1st aswell
It tends to blunt that idea pretty badly.

also, ive found both slaanesh and khornate daemons find anti-horde easy in CC.
Horrors sit back and shoot them to death with a large amount of shots.

things like DP's have no problems, since they ignore armour, have a high enough Str to easily hurt all MC's, and still get a save against them.

also, soulgrinders can sit back and template broods to death.

Deployment also favours daemons, since every unit comes in via DS.
Meaning the nid player has to set up in a defensive formation.
In which case you drop at the bottleneck and work through units.
Only so many nids will fit into a few combats. (something that messes up horde lists)

Kairos is junk against nids
He will fail worse than jacko's plastic surgeon.

I think its worth taking a thirster instead for raw power.
Or kugath for the pie plate and insane wounds.

If the nids go all out on getting re-rolls, then maybe even skarbrand has a use.
Since you can only re-roll once per dice, it will benefit daemons more than nids (who allready have re-rolls)


the tyranofex: Anything can be shot to death.
also, why would you have little critters around him? (thinking of a tervigon?)
simply use grinders, horrors, ku'gath or flamers to clear out critters and let basic daemons kill it.

Or, you could throw skulltaker and 15 letters at him, and watch the letters and skulltaker strike 1st, mop up the little 'uns, and ID the fex.

LoC could one shot it (LoC and Fateweaver can ID stuff), unlikely but it could be turned into a Spawn (on a roll of a "6" vs it's toughness it dies outright).

4 Heralds of Tzeentch could potentially blast 4 wounds off it every turn. It gets regen but it couldn't regen them fast enough.

I will have to go by others experiences vs Daemons as I, being the sole non-imperial player in my group also plays Daemons and giving the reigns over to one of the others in my group wouldn't be a fair representation to the matchup as handing an army to someone who's never played with them before is going to have skewed results (unless that person gets lucky enough to win which would just be a fluke).

ShumaGorath wrote:

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

Actually if it has regeneration it will statistically beat a tac squad with a fist (as the number of wounds dealt vs wounds regenerated reach parity at 4 wounds, and the tervigon/tyrranofex begins to regenerate more at 5). Though that fight will also take all week, and a tyrranofex with regen and the capsule canon is just shy of 300 points while the tervy is just shy of 230 with regen.

Your math doesn't fly. At 4 wounds, you only get 4/6th of a wound back on average, while 2 powerfist attacks do 1.1 wounds each assault phase. And Regen only works on the Tyranid player's turn, so that's 2.2 wounds versus the 0.6 regenned. It would probably croak somewhere around the 3rd turn, even shorter if they managed to wound it with shooting before they assaulted.

Eh just my opinion. Anyway back to conversion.

Take the Old Screamer killer and some green stuff ; get rid of them legs , Take a small set of scythe talons for legs, use the top two scything talons and angle down so he is standing on 4 scything talons with a big belly.

Instant Tervagon and pretty much no cost.


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Eh just my opinion. Anyway back to conversion.

Take the Old Screamer killer and some green stuff ; get rid of them legs , Take a small set of scythe talons for legs, use the top two scything talons and angle down so he is standing on 4 scything talons with a big belly.

Instant Tervagon and pretty much no cost.

Old epic Heirophant, any use?

Its hard to tell what are its size and dimensions ? Compared to other tyranid models.

Its pretty big
I need to either find some more pics, or dig my 3 out i have.

Ill grab more pics if i can find them, but even if it is a little small, some parts may help

Fateweaver wrote:A pack of 10 Letters with Skulltaker will make a mockery of a Tyrant and 3 Tyrant guard for less points.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. (I'll use actual dicerolls to calculate all of this). Let's say I have this:

Hive Tyrant:
- Mental Scream
- Warp Scream
- Unspeakable Horror
- Ancient Enemy
- Adrenal Glands
- 2x Scything Talons

Tyrant Guard (x3)
- Lashwhips

Okay now we'll put him up against Skulltaker and 10 Letters.

Worst case scenario (Skulltaker Assaults)
Skulltaker charges (St5 and I6) and Letters are St5, I5.
First he has to pass Ld Check to assault, assuming he gets past that, he and his letters are now at I1 because of the Lashwhips. HT attacks Skulltaker. HT hits on a 3. All 4 hit (rerolls hits from 2 Scytals). Wound on a two, all wound. 4 Saves (5+), he fails 2 and dies. Now it's the Guard's turn. 6 attacks (hitting on 4's). 4 hit (after rerolls from Prefered Enemy granted by HT's Ancient Enemy). Three wound (2's to wound). Three fail and die. Letter's turn. 21 attacks (at Tyrant, hitting on 4's). 11 hit. Wounding on a 5. Three wound. Tyrant has one wound left. Letter's lose combat by two, one dies.

Final score:
Nids
HT w/ W1, Guard unscathed.
Daemons
Skulltaker dead, 4 Letters Killed.

Best case scenario (HT Assaults)
First, if they were planning to assault, it is more than likely they would use Warp Scream to reduce the WS of Skulltaker and Company (ST = WS6, Letters = WS4). Now, HT assaults, and is now at St7 I7. Skulltaker and company at I1 from Lashwhips. HT attacks Skulltaker with 5 attacks (hits on 3's). All hit (After rerolls). All wound (wound on 2's). Skull fails three saves and (once again) dies before he could do anything. Now it's the Guard's turn. 9 attacks this time, hitting on 3's. 8 hit (after PE rerolls). 7 wound (wound on 2's). 5 Bloodletters die after saves. Bloodletter's turn. 10 attacks on HT, hitting on 4's. 5 hit. 2 wound (wounding on 6's). Tyrant has two wounds left. Bloodletters lose by 5. All but one die after saves from Fearless.

Final score:
Nids
HT w/ W2, Guard unscathed.
Daemons
Skulltaker dead, 9 Letters Killed.


I will admit, on average, that on the first scenario (with Skull charging), the HT is probably going to go down (however, I was rolling actual dice and those were the results). However, it is likely that the Bloodletters would go down from the Guard in the following assault phase. In the second one, with the HT charging, the Bloodletters didn't stand a chance. Both times Skulltaker went down to the Tyrant before he could even do anything. It is my belief that with Lashwhips from Guard this time around, Walkrants will be quite nasty (I can't see using other options, being brought to I1 in assault is too scary to pass up). Even if you do have powerweapons, your going to have to take a crapload of attacks before you get to use any of them. Overall, I really don't think Daemons as a whole are a very intimidating army to Nids (or any armies for that matter) they have their appeal, and they can be quite nasty if used correctly, but overall, not that scary. Bloodletters (and most Daemons for that matter, especially Melee ones) are pretty sucky unless you can get them behind cover. Bloodletters pop in and say "RAWR WE HAZ ALL PWRWEPS" and sit there for the entire next enemy shooting phase with their fantastic T4 and 5+ save. Yes all Daemons have invulns. Unfortunately, they don't have a better armor save as well (with the exception of Bloodcrushers, Thirsters, and other Daemons with Iron Hide).

Remember that the letters or skull taker (your choice) will need 5s to hit if warp scream/paroxysm goes off. And that'll make tyrant guard and tyrant hitting on 3s as well.

Shep wrote:Remember that the letters or skull taker (your choice) will need 5s to hit if warp scream/paroxysm goes off. And that'll make tyrant guard and tyrant hitting on 3s as well.

No, double plus one. Even with Warp Scream (bringing down their WS by one), the Letters are still WS 4 and ST is still WS6, and therefore, still hitting on 4's. Unless there's something else that I'm missing.

I am pretty sure it actually reduces the units BS and WS to one. Also, I think Bloodletters get a save versus psychic abilities.


Thats also a unholy amount of points.

A 25 Termagaunt squad near a tervigon and armed with devourers will eat a Bloodletter squad up.

Im sure someone has the odds on 75 ST4 shots at Termagaunst BS then 50 attacks that have furious charge and poison so they reroll wounds.

20 bloodletters and Skulltaker are 460 points.

25 Termgaunts w/ devourers and a tricked out Tervigon is something like the same price I believe. Not to give points away.

Hollismason wrote:I am pretty sure it actually reduces the units BS and WS to one. Also, I think Bloodletters get a save versus psychic abilities.

If only. Bloodletters do not have Blessing of the Blood God. Skulltaker does, but Blessing of the Bloodgod grants a 2+ invuln against wounds caused by Psychic powers and Force Weapons. Because Warp Scream is not causing a wound to be taken, Skulltaker does not get a save against it. Only against Psychic powers which cause wounds, and Force Weapons. Also, I misread Warp Scream saying it reduces it to 1. In that case, Skulltaker and company won't do anything in the scenario where they are charged.

Yeah its kind of a powerful ability. Tyranid warriors are enough to kick them around as they have I believe pairs of talons which reroll to hits?( wounds maybe can't remember) and come armed with devourers.


5 Tyranid Warriors w/ i think poison and lash whips is the the 200 range and a tricked out tyrant is in the same range.

Also, I think Tyrants can get tetrafex bugs which have a template that wounds on 2+ I am not clear on that rumour that may not be true at all. Add in the 15 devourer shots. Thats before even charging.

From the lists posted so far, I rather like the new codex and the models. Although I play Tau, I may get a few models because they look interesting to paint.

Having played against Daemons on several occasions, I can honestly say that :

1) Yes they can be absolutely lethal.

2) Half the time the army gets the wrong half in and often lands in the wrong place.

It is an army that really is more die dependent than any other I think.

Hollismason wrote:

Necrons = GG next map Gargoyles kill everything in the entire army except a monolith. Sure they wound on a six with their ST5 weapons which wound T6 on a 5 or 6 any way. Um Deciever and that other guy can die to a 20 man 120 point Termagaunt squad.

You know, while I am in agreement with the hilarious ineptitude of the current playability of Necrons, I feel the need to point out something:

There is essentially no circumstance where the nightbringer and very, very few circumstances where the deceiver can be tied up in close combat with termigants unless the necron player chooses to be.

AoD wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Necrons = GG next map Gargoyles kill everything in the entire army except a monolith. Sure they wound on a six with their ST5 weapons which wound T6 on a 5 or 6 any way. Um Deciever and that other guy can die to a 20 man 120 point Termagaunt squad.

You know, while I am in agreement with the hilarious ineptitude of the current playability of Necrons, I feel the need to point out something:

There is essentially no circumstance where the nightbringer and very, very few circumstances where the deceiver can be tied up in close combat with termigants unless the necron player chooses to be.

Yeah I agree with that statement, however, it's not like there aren't numerous other gribbly monsters that could kill either C'tan.

I've searched for this and I don't understand the translation.

Can someone explain exactly how the Mawloc deep strikes? Here's what I understand;

Put a die on the table to represent entry, must be 1" away from enemy per normal DS
Roll scatter
After position is determined, place a large blast----suffer a Str. 6 AP2 hit, armor hit on rear
Push models out of the way and place big bad dude.

This right?

Yeah the wording I read that was translated is kind of wonky. If its a blast weapon and the center hole is not on a vehicle its at half strength which would mean str. 3 which even against any rear armour cannot do anything.

That's pretty much how it works though which is why ultimately for the points its better than a Trigon.

3 of those turning up on a 2+ on turn 2 along with droppods Ymar genestealers, Deathleaper.

Yeah its not pleasant.


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edit:

Does anyone know if the tervigon has access to a spore pod?

Hollismason wrote:

Does anyone know if the tervigon has access to a spore pod?

Nope, it can not..... sorry

I guess it will just have to outflank with the Tyrants ability to give a troop outflank :(.

@ Chapterhouse

Hey , one of the things you guys ought to consider is a cheap Tervigon conversion kit. I mean all you would need is to have a add on belly sac with egg pods. Some arms and a gun. Also more biomorphs please

And your genestealer heads look amazing. Please to be putting one head on a Cadian Guardsman and take a picture please or a ghoul.

Thing is if Skulltaker lives through all that (assume tyrant wiffs all his attacks or only causes a single wound) Skulltaker has enough attacks charging to get at least one hit even on 5's and on a 4+ to wound that Tyrant is pushing up daisies. No Ld test like a normal force weapon, no ld check for the tyrant. It's just dead on a 4+.

As well, Tyrants have to still take Psychic tests. Sure he is LD 10 and will very rarely fail it but if he does Skulltaker is now hitting on 4's instead of 5 thereby making it even easier for ST to insta-kill the Tyrant.

Sure it's a matchup the Tyrant will win most of the time but it could also end badly for the Tyrant as well.

I'm liking that Tyrant can now at least hold his own against TH/SS termies, for the most part.

ShumaGorath wrote:Does feel no pain work on ap 1 or 2 weapons?

AP1, AP2, cc weapons that ignore armour saves, or instant death wounds all ignore FNP. Tervigon has some definate syneragy whether it be giving fleet to carnie squads or FNP to...well just about anything.

Fateweaver wrote:Thing is if Skulltaker lives through all that (assume tyrant wiffs all his attacks or only causes a single wound) Skulltaker has enough attacks charging to get at least one hit even on 5's and on a 4+ to wound that Tyrant is pushing up daisies. No Ld test like a normal force weapon, no ld check for the tyrant. It's just dead on a 4+.

As well, Tyrants have to still take Psychic tests. Sure he is LD 10 and will very rarely fail it but if he does Skulltaker is now hitting on 4's instead of 5 thereby making it even easier for ST to insta-kill the Tyrant.

Sure it's a matchup the Tyrant will win most of the time but it could also end badly for the Tyrant as well.

I'm liking that Tyrant can now at least hold his own against TH/SS termies, for the most part.

I'd be shocked if the HT does not have Eternal Warrior in the final codex, it makes sense to take it away from Synapse, but I doubt they are going to leave one of the only HQ in the army without Eternal Warrior.

I believe the information we have now *is* from the final Codex.

Redemption wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

Actually if it has regeneration it will statistically beat a tac squad with a fist (as the number of wounds dealt vs wounds regenerated reach parity at 4 wounds, and the tervigon/tyrranofex begins to regenerate more at 5). Though that fight will also take all week, and a tyrranofex with regen and the capsule canon is just shy of 300 points while the tervy is just shy of 230 with regen.

Your math doesn't fly. At 4 wounds, you only get 4/6th of a wound back on average, while 2 powerfist attacks do 1.1 wounds each assault phase. And Regen only works on the Tyranid player's turn, so that's 2.2 wounds versus the 0.6 regenned. It would probably croak somewhere around the 3rd turn, even shorter if they managed to wound it with shooting before they assaulted.

Your right, I totally forgot to take the second round of combats existence into account.

Than start being shocked. NOTHING has EW in the Tyranid codex and I for one am glad. It is being handed out worst than rending got handed out.

It's like the new kid trying to be cool so he tries to be everywhere and do everything. EW needs to start disappearing.

Fateweaver wrote:Than start being shocked. NOTHING has EW in the Tyranid codex and I for one am glad. It is being handed out worst than rending got handed out.

It's like the new kid trying to be cool so he tries to be everywhere and do everything. EW needs to start disappearing.

Time will tell I suppose. I don't know why EW needs to start dissapearing. If EW starts dissapearing than the frequency of Force Weapons needs to decrease. Even Tyranids have Force Weapons now...wtf.

EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

Darth Bob wrote:Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW?

Yeah but they're T5, not T6 as most TMC's are. That's a monumental difference.

The largest 'Nids don't need except for, IMO, the 'special' ones like the Swarm Lord

Yeah its only a really big deal with warriors and even then its not that big of a deal.

The only thing I am unhappy with is that you get some dud units and somehow they made lictors worse.

Yes, lets take away the only good thing they had going for them in the last codex. I still don' understand that t all.

From what I've read and seen worthless

Pyrovore
Ripper swarms are now completely pointless to EVER take seriously ever. They not only can't claim are no long immune to instant death and they have a disadvantage and theyre not cheaper.
Carnifex , yeah seriously no invuln no 2 + save. GG.


Everything else is at least decent to totally awesome sauce.

Pyrovore
Seriously, for such a kick ass model why so gakky rules.

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I can't see a reason right now why any tyranid army would not field at least 60 gargoyles can we go ahead and declare gargoyles one of the best units for its points in the game.

I don't think I'll have 60 of em, simply because I want to make sure I save points for tons of Gaunts and Toxigaunts. I do want at least one unit of `em for sure however, maybe two if I have the points. That's where I'm at right now. I know what I want based on the rules, but I don't know how much of it I can have due to not knowing the point costs of everything.

Does anyone know of the other upgrades for Gargoyles theyre half the point cost now so I mean thats dirt cheap. I wonder if they can exchange their guns for anything. The only thing Ive read is they get a initial bioplasma 6 on a hit is a auto wound plus can get poison.


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edit: Someone sent me a PM earlier saying Toxic Miasma is broken as its not a BtB its just everyone in combat. There are units of creatures that can take Toxic Miasma.

Any confirmation or denial on that.

Who can take Toxic Miasma?

Last I saw was Toxin Sacs, and maybe Adrenal, but no gun options at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I understand where you are coming from. It never made much sense to me that so many of the SM special characters have EW. But alot of the CSM characters even have fluff to back up their reason for having it (Kharn being brought back several times by Khorne, Lucius being reborn in the bodies of those who kill him). I also think it would make sense that the Hive Mind would develop their generals (Hive Tyrants) to be resistant to Force Weapons. Aditionally, wouldn't the Shadow of the Warp reduce the effectiveness of Force Weapons just as it reduces the potency of Pyschers? Overall though, I would say that complete removal of ID immunity as we know it would make 40k (especially Apocalypse) incredibly imbalanced. We'd have a 400 point Shadowsword taking out a 1000+ point Hierophant or a 800+ point Gargantuan Squiggoth in one shot.

Glands and Sacs, no gun options.

I'm reading it as all models in a unit that is in assault with a model/unit with toxic miasma takes a wound if they fail a T check. You get your save so it only really hurts low T, low armor save models like IG and maybe T.

So if a mob of 30 orks is in assault with a Venomthrope, at the END of every assault phase every model in the unit must pass a T test or take a wound. It's at the end so won't count toward combat resolution as it occurs after combat has been fought, would be more broken if it counted toward combat res.

Great way to thin out ork mobs. Why my DP's have Nurgles Rot.


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Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I understand where you are coming from. It never made much sense to me that so many of the SM special characters have EW. But alot of the CSM characters even have fluff to back up their reason for having it (Kharn being brought back several times by Khorne, Lucius being reborn in the bodies of those who kill him). I also think it would make sense that the Hive Mind would develop their generals (Hive Tyrants) to be resistant to Force Weapons. Aditionally, wouldn't the Shadow of the Warp reduce the effectiveness of Force Weapons just as it reduces the potency of Pyschers? Overall though, I would say that complete removal of ID immunity as we know it would make 40k (especially Apocalypse) incredibly imbalanced. We'd have a 400 point Shadowsword taking out a 1000+ point Hierophant or a 800+ point Gargantuan Squiggoth in one shot.

Thing is the Shadow in the Warp ability (not power as it's never cancelled or tested for like warlock abilities) will mean an average roll of 10.5 on 3d6. Since nothing in the game has Ld11 it will mean that there is a good chance that the Force Weapon will not work. Skulltaker is really the only thing I see being an ID threat to the Tyrant from a melee standpoint and the Tyrant can shut him down or lower his effectiveness vastly (apart from Dcannons which are probably rarely seen and wraithguard who are super short ranged and slow unless put into a vehicle and will die to anything remotely capable of assault, ie the entire Tyranid army more or less).

Again I have to agree with Shuma. Not many things with ID melee can really hurt the big bugs. Most of the SM characters that can inflict ID are S4 so need 6's to wound the carnifex and the Tyrant and the Mawloc/Trygon. The only things more susceptible to ID now are 'Nid Warriors and IMO they got better for, depending how they ran, cheaper points and are more resilient to really what killed them alot in 4th which was bolters and multishot weapons.

If my opponents are going to be dumb enough to blast my warriors with krak missles and not use those missles against my carnifi who now are no longer nigh immune to them or my Tyrant or the Trygon and Mawloc I plan to take then it will be a very short and very one sided game with my 'Nids tabling my opponent.

Hollismason wrote:If its a blast weapon and the center hole is not on a vehicle its at half strength which would mean str. 3 which even against any rear armour cannot do anything.

It's not a blast weapon or shooting attack, it's a special deployment rule. Half strength at centre hole doesn't apply, YMMV tho.

I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

Fetterkey wrote:I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

It just describes the procedure of how you lay down the template, etc, and that "hits on vehicles are directed against the rear armour". That's it. No mention of it being a blast weapon or anything like that. Very much a YMMV affair I feel. As it is part of a unique special rule for this particular unit's deployment, I personally wouldn't consider it would follow the specific rules for firing a blast weapon at a vehicle. And the rear armour stipulation implies an auto-central hit anyway IMO.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

It just describes the procedure of how you lay down the template, etc, and that "hits on vehicles are directed against the rear armour". That's it. No mention of it being a blast weapon or anything like that. Very much a YMMV affair I feel. As it is part of a unique special rule for this particular unit's deployment, I personally wouldn't consider it would follow the specific rules for firing a blast weapon at a vehicle. And the rear armour stipulation implies an auto-central hit anyway IMO.

It looks like Fetterkey's Avatar is ogling yours. Jus' sayin'.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I've searched for this and I don't understand the translation.

Can someone explain exactly how the Mawloc deep strikes? Here's what I understand;

Put a die on the table to represent entry, must be 1" away from enemy per normal DS
Roll scatter
After position is determined, place a large blast----suffer a Str. 6 AP2 hit, armor hit on rear
Push models out of the way and place big bad dude.

This right?

It's basically:
- Place a Large Blast marker where you want the Mawloc to enter.
- Roll for scatter.
- Units under the marker suffer a S6 AP2 hit, vehicles are hit on their rear.
- Resolve casualties.
- Place the Mawloc and move any remaining models the minimum distance required to clear the marker in a legal formation and avoiding impassable terrain. Models that were locked in combat at the moment must attempt to remain in base contact with the unit they were in close combat in. Models may not be moved within 1" of other units (besides the one they were locked in combat with). Vehicles, even immobilised ones, remain in their current direction but are also moved. Models that can't be moved (e.g., would have to move into base contact with an enemy model) are destoyed.

Normal DS rules never mention that you need to be 1" away from enemies. It's just advisable because if you don't scatter you'd have to roll on the misshap table. The Mawloc, however, doesn't roll on the mishap table, so it seems you can just deepstrike in the middle of an enemy unit, your own unit, units locked in combat, etc. to your hearts content.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Hollismason wrote:If its a blast weapon and the center hole is not on a vehicle its at half strength which would mean str. 3 which even against any rear armour cannot do anything.

It's not a blast weapon or shooting attack, it's a special deployment rule. Half strength at centre hole doesn't apply, YMMV tho.

I agree, it is not mentioned it is a Blast weapon, just that any models under the marker get an automatic S6 AP2 hit.

Hollismason wrote: @ Chapterhouse

Hey , one of the things you guys ought to consider is a cheap Tervigon conversion kit. I mean all you would need is to have a add on belly sac with egg pods. Some arms and a gun. Also more biomorphs please

The Tervigon doesn't have any guns, just a Spine Banks-like carapace weapon that can either shoot as a multishot weapon or a template (chosen at army list creation). The only limbed weapons you can add are a pair of Scything Talons or a pair of Crushing Claws.

wyomingfox wrote:Tervigon has some definate syneragy whether it be giving fleet to carnie squads or FNP to...well just about anything.

I don't see where Tervigons give Fleet to units. If you're thinking of the psychic powers that lets friendly units run and shoot, it says they can't assault afterwards unless they have Fleet.

Hollismason wrote:Does anyone know of the other upgrades for Gargoyles theyre half the point cost now so I mean thats dirt cheap. I wonder if they can exchange their guns for anything. The only thing Ive read is they get a initial bioplasma 6 on a hit is a auto wound plus can get poison.

Their only upgrades are Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs for 1 point each.

edit: Someone sent me a PM earlier saying Toxic Miasma is broken as its not a BtB its just everyone in combat. There are units of creatures that can take Toxic Miasma.

Any confirmation or denial on that.

Who can take Toxic Miasma?

Well tell the guy he's wrong. It's only units that are in base contact at the end of every player turn that have to take a Toughness test or get a wound, against which you can take all saves but cover saves. Also the only unit that have it is the Venomthrope, a the Hive Tyrant and Tervigon can buy it as an upgrade. So it's only really deadly against low Toughness units with a bad save, like Gaunts or Guardmen. But I'm sure people who use them are used to them dying in droves when they're in close combat.

Just put up a batrep using the gant farm with T6 support if anyone wants to check it out...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/271677.page#1217417

After playing that one I'm really looking forward to hearing some ideas for tervigon conversions. I've got some ideas, probably going to be using the valkyrie base...

Also, this thread in the army list section might be slightly interesting if you've been following all of the nid rumor threads...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271481.page

A quick question for anyone who's read the German 'dex. Does the Tervigon's Catalyst rule say that it affects a 'friendly unit' or a 'tyranid unit'?

Shep wrote:Just put up a batrep using the gant farm with T6 support if anyone wants to check it out...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/271677.page#1217417

After playing that one I'm really looking forward to hearing some ideas for tervigon conversions. I've got some ideas, probably going to be using the valkyrie base...

Also, this thread in the army list section might be slightly interesting if you've been following all of the nid rumor threads...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271481.page

Save your time and money, we are working on a fairly affordable kit to convert a Carnifex into the most popular HQ choice at the moment. Magnetize it and you can still use it as a carnifex as well.

Fenris-77 wrote:A quick question for anyone who's read the German 'dex. Does the Tervigon's Catalyst rule say that it affects a 'friendly unit' or a 'tyranid unit'?

Catalyst:
Used in Movement phase. When successful, elect one (1) friendly unit within 12" of the Psyker. This unit has Feel No Pain untill the next Tyranid player's turn.

Yeah its a incredibly powerful ability.

So invest in Devastators and Missile Launchers.

The only thing missiles will still kill is warriors. Carnies with FNP only fear the wrath of the AP1 and 2! mauahahahahaahahahaah

and they still have enough Target Saturation to keep those missiles hard pressed.

But yes, ML's are nice weapon against almost everything Tyranids can field on the board.

Redemption wrote:

Fenris-77 wrote:A quick question for anyone who's read the German 'dex. Does the Tervigon's Catalyst rule say that it affects a 'friendly unit' or a 'tyranid unit'?

Catalyst:
Used in Movement phase. When successful, elect one (1) friendly unit within 12" of the Psyker. This unit has Feel No Pain untill the next Tyranid player's turn.

Well, well. That has some pretty gross applications for doubles play. 50 man IG PW blobs or full boyz squads with FNP anyone? Anyone at all?! Now all I have to do is figure out whether the Mawloc can rubber hawk and my RaI heresy for today will be complete.

It specifically states that he can't reburrow in the same turn he deepstrikes. Though I see a lot of people starting him on the board to make sure he comes in turn 2

Ahh, righty-o. I'm actually just fine with it not being a Rubber Hawk kind of thing. Excellent. I'll take my doubles gold Tervigon and go home happy on the day.

I'd be interested to see what other powers and abilities from the new book are 'friendly model or unit' too. Given the sheer number of cool abilities this Dex could be a doubles gold mine.

Redemption wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:Tervigon has some definate syneragy whether it be giving fleet to carnie squads or FNP to...well just about anything.

I don't see where Tervigons give Fleet to units. If you're thinking of the psychic powers that lets friendly units run and shoot, it says they can't assault afterwards unless they have Fleet.

Yeah, the psychic power is what I was refering to. The rumor was that it allowed a unit to run, shoot, and assault. So that rumor is wrong huh?

Chapterhouse wrote:Save your time and money, we are working on a fairly affordable kit to convert a Carnifex into the most popular HQ choice at the moment. Magnetize it and you can still use it as a carnifex as well.

Hurry, hurry, hurry! I've got more money than I do patience/time/skill. I will buy two kits as soon as they are available, I thinkyou'll be selling pairs of the kits to a whole lot of nid players.

As was said in another thread. I would prioritze the tervigon, followed by the spore pod. Then I would work on a tyrranofex kit and bonesword arms (both left and right) for warriors, and a set of 2x left handed and 1x right handed bonesword arms for the tyrant.

I'm sure you've got a schedule all worked out. I just want to make sure the tervigon is at the top of the list. It really is going to be in quite a few armies.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Hulksmash wrote:The only thing missiles will still kill is warriors. Carnies with FNP only fear the wrath of the AP1 and 2! mauahahahahaahahahaah

Carnies Bah . I plan on giving FNP to 6 wound Mawlocs and Trygons who have fleet and can get stuck in.


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Hulksmash wrote:It specifically states that he can't reburrow in the same turn he deepstrikes. Though I see a lot of people starting him on the board to make sure he comes in turn 2

Hah! Not a bad idea .

That's why the Good Lord (Roboute Guilliman) invented Combat Tactics. I pity the poor quasi-heretics that never learned the advantages of advancing to the rear when targets of strategic importance become targets of opportunity.

Or you can just leave him off in reserves he still can DS from reserve I believe.

Do we know what units can Deepstrike with Pods or not?

Do warriors have the option?

Hollismason:

I think that the idea is if the Mawloc Deep Strikes from reserves he may not show up in Turn 2, whereas if he starts on the board and burrows, he'll be able to show up on Turn 2 automatically.

Can a tervigon give itself FNP through catalyst? I've got a translated version of the book now, but I don't know whether a unit counts as being friendly and within 12" of itself.

Can a unit be within 12" of itself? Yes, of course. How can a unit not be within 12" of itself, particularly if the unit is a single model. This ain't Russel's Paradox.

Can a unit count as being friendly? Yes, course. How can a unit not be friendly with itself? Kharn doesn't count, as he's doing his fellows a favour by making them sacred to Khorne.

Maybe he's chronically depressed and only feels alive when he's feeling pain, and is thus unfriendly to himself.

Yes, and we drive on parkways but park on driveways. Crazy!

Ooo, ooo, wait, if you've got the English codex, I gotta question. Do the drop pod spore things have any kind of special rule that says they're not allowed to be Scoring Units?

Aduro wrote:Ooo, ooo, wait, if you've got the English codex, I gotta question. Do the drop pod spore things have any kind of special rule that says they're not allowed to be Scoring Units?

Nope, but the translation doesn't seem to have what the 2 sentence blurb at the top of the codex unit entry has. So it could be in there. Either way it's a bad scoring unit considering it's size, ability to be insta killed, and poor save.

Didn't say it would be a Good one.

Nope, but the translation doesn't seem to have what the 2 sentence blurb at the top of the codex unit entry has. So it could be in there.

Pretty sure 'nicht-punktende' means the spore pod is non-scoring. Not 100% sure though.

Any idea on what units cannot take spore pods?

Not very impressed with the Harpy either. Doesn't seem like that great of a unit really.

Aduro wrote:Do the drop pod spore things have any kind of special rule that says they're not allowed to be Scoring Units?

It is stated in their army list entry that they are non-scoring units.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Aduro wrote:Do the drop pod spore things have any kind of special rule that says they're not allowed to be Scoring Units?

It is stated in their army list entry that they are non-scoring units.

Alrighty then. Had just noticed the previous leaked stuff didn't mention that, and I wondered if that slipped past their oversight or not. I think I'm planning on a foot slogging swarm anyways.

Pods are really great I just kind of want to know if Tyranid Warriors can get pods. Havn't seen anything of the sort.


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Pods are really great I just kind of want to know if Tyranid Warriors can get pods. Havn't seen anything of the sort.

Warriors can take pods, both gants and gaunts can take them if 20 or less, zoanthropes can take pods, carnifex, doom of malantai (the super zoanthrope), pyrovore (3 podding heavy flamers isn't bad), regular stealers.

Looks like two of my warrior units are now equipped illegally, other than that I'm excited for the 'dex.

Alright, I think I know what I want my Swarm to look like, and I'm wondering if someone who has a copy of the point values can give me an approximate value of this list as a whole so I know if it's too big or leaves me spare room for more toys. No individual breakdowns, and rounded to the nearest 100, and I'd be quite happy enough with that level of info.

Alpha Warrior with Bone Swords and Deathspitter
Parasite of Malanix (or whatever it's called)

2x Hive Guard
2x Venomthropes
Death Leaper

2x 20 man Termigaunts
2x 20 man Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
2x Tervigons w/ Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands

20 man Gargoyles

Tyranofex with the Str 10 gun.

Hollismason wrote:Any idea on what units cannot take spore pods?

Not very impressed with the Harpy either. Doesn't seem like that great of a unit really.

Not sure on the harpy myself, but it can have twin linked heavy VC and is jump infantry. So if you are thinking that 200 pt carnies (with VC) are the bomb, then harpies should sound better since 1) it is more accurate with TL - increases chances from 50% accounting for favorable scatter to 75% ish or so 2) is more manueverable with wings 3) can actually chase down mech, something carnies won't do very well. Depending of whether you can both bomb (movement phase) and shoot strangle thorns (shooting phase) you could also have a pretty pottent anti-horde. Can't rememer the points though? Again, it comes down to army composition, are you going to spam TMC with wings...5 winged MC (2 flyrants) could be a very scary proposition.

wyomingfox wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Any idea on what units cannot take spore pods?

Not very impressed with the Harpy either. Doesn't seem like that great of a unit really.

Not sure on the harpy myself, but it can have twin linked heavy VC and is jump infantry. So if you are thinking that 200 pt carnies (with VC) are the bomb, then harpies should sound better since 1) it is more accurate with TL - increases chances from 50% accounting for favorable scatter to 75% ish or so 2) is more manueverable with wings 3) can actually chase down mech, something carnies won't do very well. Depending of whether you can both bomb (movement phase) and shoot strangle thorns (shooting phase) you could also have a pretty pottent anti-horde. Can't rememer the points though? Again, it comes down to army composition, are you going to spam TMC with wings...5 winged MC (2 flyrants) could be a very scary proposition.

The problem with the Harpy is one less Toughness, meaning Str 10 can insta kill it, and a 4+ save.

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Aduro wrote:Alright, I think I know what I want my Swarm to look like, and I'm wondering if someone who has a copy of the point values can give me an approximate value of this list as a whole so I know if it's too big or leaves me spare room for more toys. No individual breakdowns, and rounded to the nearest 100, and I'd be quite happy enough with that level of info.

Alpha Warrior with Bone Swords and Deathspitter
Parasite of Malanix (or whatever it's called)

2x Hive Guard
2x Venomthropes
Death Leaper

2x 20 man Termigaunts
2x 20 man Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
2x Tervigons w/ Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands

20 man Gargoyles

Tyranofex with the Str 10 gun.

This list is 2 meltaguns over 1900.

Hah, had to adjust your math eh? Looks like I'll need to shave a bit to get my 1750 point goal, but that's not too bad given I was just wish listing stuff on perceived theme and appearance and general coolness.

It's over 1750 by over 150 pts.

Aduro wrote:Alright, I think I know what I want my Swarm to look like, and I'm wondering if someone who has a copy of the point values can give me an approximate value of this list as a whole so I know if it's too big or leaves me spare room for more toys. No individual breakdowns, and rounded to the nearest 100, and I'd be quite happy enough with that level of info.

Alpha Warrior with Bone Swords and Deathspitter
Parasite of Malanix (or whatever it's called)

2x Hive Guard
2x Venomthropes
Death Leaper

2x 20 man Termigaunts
2x 20 man Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
2x Tervigons w/ Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands

20 man Gargoyles

Tyranofex with the Str 10 gun.

If I were you, I'd find a way to fit Adrenal Glands in with the Hormies. With Furious Charge and Toxin Sacks, they'll be rerolling wounds on MEQ's as well as GEQ's.

@Aduro:
I don't think the list has too many heavy hitters... or not enough to cover the 100 gaunt equivalents running/flying around.

Nah, I'd rather have more attacks and bodies than the rerolling wounds vs Marines on the charge. Plus I already have to shave just to get the stuff I want.

Darth Bob wrote:

Aduro wrote:Alright, I think I know what I want my Swarm to look like, and I'm wondering if someone who has a copy of the point values can give me an approximate value of this list as a whole so I know if it's too big or leaves me spare room for more toys. No individual breakdowns, and rounded to the nearest 100, and I'd be quite happy enough with that level of info.

Alpha Warrior with Bone Swords and Deathspitter
Parasite of Malanix (or whatever it's called)

2x Hive Guard
2x Venomthropes
Death Leaper

2x 20 man Termigaunts
2x 20 man Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
2x Tervigons w/ Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands

20 man Gargoyles

Tyranofex with the Str 10 gun.

If I were you, I'd find a way to fit Adrenal Glands in with the Hormies. With Furious Charge and Toxin Sacks, they'll be rerolling wounds on MEQ's as well as GEQ's.

Yeah, by my math 20 hormagaunts will inflict 25 wounds on MEQ's. That's 8 dead marines before the marines get to fight back. That's if the gaunts charge and have both sacs and glands. Granted it'll be hard to get one full brood of 20 alive but that's the point of running 2 or more broods.

What's the math on 20 of em without Glands, just Toxin?

3.5 dead marines (so between 3 and 4 dead marines).

So the S4 on the charge makes them way more killy (and lets them strike first against Eldar Aspect squads, in which case you'll wipe them out before they even get to swing, even Scorps with their 3+ save have to fear gland/sac gaunts).

Does vicious mind allow any unit or any troop choice to outflank? I've heard both.

I don't really play tyranids but the idea of a Deepstriking outflanking Tyranid army able to all come in on Turn 2 is kind of intimidating.

Mawlocs , Deathleapers, Winged Tyrants etc is certainly some really great combos in the codex just from the rumours.

Wait, what? How does rerolling failed wounds More than Double the number of dead Marines?

ONE Troop unit (gaunts, gants, rippers, stealers or warriors) may outflank and you get to reroll for board edge.

9 Warriors with an Alpha leading them all armed with Deathspitters would be a very annoying or even scary outflanking squad. It would take 4 turns for a HB Dev squad to kill those Warriors and those warriors will most likely be in the face of that squad before then.

Sure if 1/3rd or 1/2 the Marine army shoots at it it'll die before 4 turns but that is 1/3rd to 1/2 the marine army not shooting at the rest of the nid army.

Hollismason wrote:Does vicious mind allow any unit or any troop choice to outflank? I've heard both.

I don't really play tyranids but the idea of a Deepstriking outflanking Tyranid army able to all come in on Turn 2 is kind of intimidating.

Mawlocs , Deathleapers, Winged Tyrants etc is certainly some really great combos in the codex just from the rumours.

Vicious Mind allows one (1) Troop choice to outflank. Winged Tyrants are expensive though, they're nearing Landraider costs before you add on any other biomorphs, weapons or rules. They cannot get Warp Field this time arround, and while they techinically can get a unit of Tyrant Guard this time around, that'll obviously slow it down.

Okay, you lost me again, what the hell does rubber hawk mean?

Aduro wrote:Wait, what? How does rerolling failed wounds More than Double the number of dead Marines?

It's +1 S and reroll to Wound, so you're going from a 33% chance to wound to a 75% chance to wound.

Fateweaver wrote:9 Warriors with an Alpha leading them all armed with Deathspitters would be a very annoying or even scary outflanking squad. It would take 4 turns for a HB Dev squad to kill those Warriors and those warriors will most likely be in the face of that squad before then.

Sure if 1/3rd or 1/2 the Marine army shoots at it it'll die before 4 turns but that is 1/3rd to 1/2 the marine army not shooting at the rest of the nid army.

Of course, that's also a 400+ point unit that with a little bad luck may be out of range or in reserves half the game, doing nothing but tieing up points.

Without gland you are wounding the marines on 4's with no chance to reroll...with the gland you are wounding on 4's rerolling.

20 Gaunts w/out Glands charging: 60 attacks, 30 hits, 33 with rerolls (mathematically 5 1's so another 3 hits rounded up), 16.5 wounds, 5.4 dead marines.

20 Gaunts w/Glands charging: 60 attacks, 33 hits after rerolling 1's, 24.75 wounds after rerolls = 8 dead marines.

So yeah, math was a little off so the margin of kills isn't as large but it's 2 dead marines swinging back vs 4.6 dead marines swinging back resulting in a larger break modifier for the marines (or an even possible draw for the marines if the sarge is alive and happens to have a fist or power weapon (which is not unheard of in a tactical squad)).

It also is beneficial against units of I5 as you are going at I6 (most eldar aspects will now go after you so long as you get the charge).

The glands will not come into play if the gaunts don't get the charge but will be almost twice as killy if they do get the charge (and could even take down most marine IC's) before the IC's get to swing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I plan to run a Deathleaper and a brood of Lictor twins. That is +2 to reserves if the lictors and DL make it on in turn 2. I will be giving my Tyrant the plus 1 to reserves ability so 3+ on turn 2 my lictor pals come in meaning if lictor and leaper show up anything else I hold in reserve is auto-on on turn 3.

I'm not saying that 9 warriors with an alpha is the best unit but in larger games (our norm is 2500 in my circle) that 400pts isn't that detrimental.

At 1850 it's prohibitive but I find that at 1850 the nid list has shrunk a little bit but gotten more powerful (at least on paper).

Having the Lictor or Deathleaper just adds +1 to reserve from what I understand nothing about it having to be on board to give the +1 meaning it gives itself a +1 even without a hive tyrant.


You can outflank Tervigons w/ Crushing Claws that then spit out 3d6 gaunts as gaunts make them a troop choice.

I'm reading from translation so I hope you are right. I don't know German that well and don't trust translators but the translated one says that the Lictor must be on the board at the start of the turn to use it, aka teleport homer/locater beacon.

Would be a lot more useful if it's like the advisor one for IG where he just has to be in your army and alive.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm reading from translation so I hope you are right. I don't know German that well and don't trust translators but the translated one says that the Lictor must be on the board at the start of the turn to use it, aka teleport homer/locater beacon.

Would be a lot more useful if it's like the advisor one for IG where he just has to be in your army and alive.

Well, I only have access the German one and it says:

Pheromone Trail:
When at the beginning of the movement phase a Lictor is on the board, the Tyranid player adds +1 to his reserve rolls. In addition, any unit entering by Deep Strike within 6" of a Lictor doesn't have to roll for scatter. This ability may not be used on the turn the Lictor arrived from reserves itself.

I figured a human translator could do it right. I don't trust the online translators.

So, not really all that great unless you want to ensure a 3rd turn reserve roll on by taking at least 2 lictors and hoping they both appear on turn 2.

Well, they are better than current regardless and the DS around them without scatter is nice as well.

Fateweaver wrote:I figured a human translator could do it right. I don't trust the online translators.

So, not really all that great unless you want to ensure a 3rd turn reserve roll on by taking at least 2 lictors and hoping they both appear on turn 2.

Well, they are better than current regardless and the DS around them without scatter is nice as well.

I doubt the +1 to reserves is cummulative, seeing at the IG one isn't. The Hive Tyrant one (Vicious Mind) only requires it to be alive though.

Also, has anyone noticed the new deployment of Spore Mine Clusters? They get to Deepstrike before deployment, after the player sides are determined. Fun to mess with the enemy deployment by dropping a few clusters in their starting zone before they deploy.

Fateweaver wrote:Without gland you are wounding the marines on 4's with no chance to reroll...with the gland you are wounding on 4's rerolling.

20 Gaunts w/out Glands charging: 60 attacks, 30 hits, 33 with rerolls (mathematically 5 1's so another 3 hits rounded up), 16.5 wounds, 5.4 dead marines.

20 Gaunts w/Glands charging: 60 attacks, 33 hits after rerolling 1's, 24.75 wounds after rerolls = 8 dead marines.

So yeah, math was a little off so the margin of kills isn't as large but it's 2 dead marines swinging back vs 4.6 dead marines swinging back resulting in a larger break modifier for the marines (or an even possible draw for the marines if the sarge is alive and happens to have a fist or power weapon (which is not unheard of in a tactical squad)).

You *want* to draw combat against Marines. I don't think the glands are worthwhile.

I'd rather win combat. Gaunts don't have staying power and so can't get caught in a protracted combat or they won't hold thusly playing right into the Marine players hands.

The sacs are my first choice but with points to spare I'd give them glands. Great against high I units and S4 means they are a threat to most transports/light walkers (enough weapon destroyed/immobilized results will wreck an Ar10 vehicle/walker).

Redemption wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I've searched for this and I don't understand the translation.

Can someone explain exactly how the Mawloc deep strikes? Here's what I understand;

Put a die on the table to represent entry, must be 1" away from enemy per normal DS
Roll scatter
After position is determined, place a large blast----suffer a Str. 6 AP2 hit, armor hit on rear
Push models out of the way and place big bad dude.

This right?

It's basically:
- Place a Large Blast marker where you want the Mawloc to enter.
- Roll for scatter.
- Units under the marker suffer a S6 AP2 hit, vehicles are hit on their rear.
- Resolve casualties.
- Place the Mawloc and move any remaining models the minimum distance required to clear the marker in a legal formation and avoiding impassable terrain. Models that were locked in combat at the moment must attempt to remain in base contact with the unit they were in close combat in. Models may not be moved within 1" of other units (besides the one they were locked in combat with). Vehicles, even immobilised ones, remain in their current direction but are also moved. Models that can't be moved (e.g., would have to move into base contact with an enemy model) are destoyed.

Normal DS rules never mention that you need to be 1" away from enemies. It's just advisable because if you don't scatter you'd have to roll on the misshap table. The Mawloc, however, doesn't roll on the mishap table, so it seems you can just deepstrike in the middle of an enemy unit, your own unit, units locked in combat, etc. to your hearts content.

Damn that's strong. Str. 6 AP 2 orbital templates that repeat every other turn, only scatter 1d6...and it has wounds/nasty profile too ^^.

Well, Hive Guard to blow up Rhinos, Mawlocs to eat the chewy centers with blast templates every other turn.

Yeah, the auto-in next turn is nice. Start on board, turn 2 burrow up under a unit, go back in turn 3 if not locked in combat, repeat on turn 4 (and 6 if it goes past 5).

S6 against the back of most vehicle will mess them up as well.

Well all in all EVERYTHING looks a bit overpower compared to normal.

But of course thats not a bad thing!

Remember folks, unless the centre of the template hits the Tank, that'll be a S3, not a S6 hit....

True but I don't think most will use it to snipe tanks. It will just be convenient when it does.

Haha you can destroy stuff pretty easily then with Gargoyles and Mawlocs.

Actually thats kind of broken O_o.

Think about it this way the Mawloc "template" as a circular vehicle. Models have to be moved out of. Its the same basic principle of killing transported units that are inside transports by surrounding the vehicle.

Except now you can do it to Landraiders/ Monoliths/ Battlewagons/ Squads of Vehicles.

Yeah thats slowed.

Except if it scatters (2/3 chance) and hits your own gargoyles (Very Likely).

Remember folks, unless the centre of the template hits the Tank, that'll be a S3, not a S6 hit....

Certainly arguable -- but the rule you are using to come to that conclusion is when blast weapons are shot at vehicles. This is not a blast weapon, nor a shooting attack, is not even resolved in the shooting phase and its rules specificaly state everything under the template take S6 hits.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Remember folks, unless the centre of the template hits the Tank, that'll be a S3, not a S6 hit....

This was just talked about a page or two back. I personally have resolved that because it does not explicitly describe it as a blast weapon, then it does not follow that rule (which would entail that it is, in fact, a blast weapon).

Its still rather amusing.

Fateweaver wrote:I'd rather win combat. Gaunts don't have staying power and so can't get caught in a protracted combat or they won't hold thusly playing right into the Marine players hands.

If you win combat, the Marines can just use Combat Tactics to fall back and then shoot you. You want to either kill the entire unit at once or else lose/draw combat to tie them up until your heavy hitters arrive.

I've never understood how people rely so heavily on combat tactics.

For example, someone stating if they get tied up by the Mawloc/Trygon/Tyrant they'll 'just combat tactics away'. Well, no you likely won't. Against similar ini combat tactics work less than 50% of the time, against higher ini almost never. Tyrant = Ini 5, Mawloc/Trygon = Ini 4. Then, even if you get lucky and do fall back, they'll consolidate up to make you fall back again at the start of your turn...likely taking you out of rapid fire/melta range.

Most times, combat tactics just makes people nervous about shooting you before they assault.

The shooting doesn't necessarily come from the unit that was assaulted. You can't take this sort of thing in a vacuum. In a unit on unit comparison, Combat Tactics seems quite poor, but when applied over the course of an actual battle, it becomes extremely powerful. Also remember that Marines who get caught take No Retreat wounds, which is a further aid to Combat Tactics escapes. Fortunately, Combat Tactics can be countered. You basically don't want to give the opponent a chance to escape, ever. You want to tie them up, then bring in the heavy hitters to finish them off.

The trick to using Combat Tactics is to use another unit, particularly a Dreadnought since they don't suffer from No Retreat!, to lock the antagonist and prevent a Sweeping Advance on the part of the other unit. That way you can use Combat Tactics to duck out of combat, either making space for counter-assault units or for your own firepower if the locking unit doesn't survive.

Fetterkey wrote:The shooting doesn't necessarily come from the unit that was assaulted. You can't take this sort of thing in a vacuum. In a unit on unit comparison, Combat Tactics seems quite poor, but when applied over the course of an actual battle, it becomes extremely powerful. Also remember that Marines who get caught take No Retreat wounds, which is a further aid to Combat Tactics escapes. Fortunately, Combat Tactics can be countered. You basically don't want to give the opponent a chance to escape, ever. You want to tie them up, then bring in the heavy hitters to finish them off.

Well..if combat tactics fails (which it more often than not does)...nobody can shoot the enemy .

Nurglitch wrote:The trick to using Combat Tactics is to use another unit, particularly a Dreadnought since they don't suffer from No Retreat!, to lock the antagonist and prevent a Sweeping Advance on the part of the other unit. That way you can use Combat Tactics to duck out of combat, either making space for counter-assault units or for your own firepower if the locking unit doesn't survive.

Pretty extremely situational...where you're in combat with a tac squad/dread...against something you want to combat tactics away from...but you're not scared of throwing a dread at?

Anyways, we are derailing the thread and I take responsibility due to my initial comment no combat tactics. We should start a convo in the 40k Discussion forum.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Anyways, we are derailing the thread and I take responsibility due to my initial comment no combat tactics. We should start a convo in the 40k Discussion forum.

Good idea, done. Here's the link.

Warning: Aduro's attempting Math.

Alright, Toxigaunts vs Toxigaunts with Adrenal Glands, at an 80 point value for even numbered units.

10 Toxigaunts
30 Atttacks on the charge
18 Hit with Scytal's rerolling the 1's
9 Wound
3 Marines fail their saves and die.

8 Toxigaunts with Adrenals
24 Attacks on the charge
14 Hit with Scytal's rerolling the 1's
10.5 Wound with the rerolls granted from Adrenal's higher Str.
3.5 Marines fail their saves and die.

I don't think Adrenal's are worth it, at least not for MEQ killing. You barely kill any more guys, but you're losing numbers in the unit. Now, if you Are fighting Eldar, or need to assault a tank to Glance the rear armor, it'd be useful then. I think I'd rather have the extra bodies myself however.

So Hormis have Sycthing Talons confirmed? I hadn't seen anything posted here about that. If so...Hell yea

Darkness wrote:So Hormis have Sycthing Talons confirmed? I hadn't seen anything posted here about that. If so...Hell yea

Yes, they do. They can also get adrenal glands and toxin sacs for 2 points per model each. With move through cover and their special rule for choosing the highest of 3d6 when running they're comparably quick to what they used to be, though they still get edged out averagely by about 3 inches if they perform a third turn assault. Still, not bad for almost half their original cost.

Hormies have always had scyth tals....why wouldn't they have them now?

It's how they got +1 attack in the current codex.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Damn that's strong. Str. 6 AP 2 orbital templates that repeat every other turn, only scatter 1d6...and it has wounds/nasty profile too ^^.

Well, Hive Guard to blow up Rhinos, Mawlocs to eat the chewy centers with blast templates every other turn.

Deep Strike still scatters 2D6".

Fateweaver wrote:Yeah, the auto-in next turn is nice. Start on board, turn 2 burrow up under a unit, go back in turn 3 if not locked in combat, repeat on turn 4 (and 6 if it goes past 5).

S6 against the back of most vehicle will mess them up as well.

The Mawloc has Hit and Run, so you have a good chance of getting away at the end of your opponents assault phase if you are locked in combat.

Darkness wrote:So Hormis have Sycthing Talons confirmed? I hadn't seen anything posted here about that. If so...Hell yea

They have 1 pair, so they get to reroll 1's to hit, not all failed hits.

It's looking more and more like my Tyranids will be primarily a close combat force, with lots of psychic powers to tenderize the meat.

Hey,

does anyone here got the englisch dex?
I got the german dex and i think there is a problem with the sword/ lash combo. These are two cc weapons, but the rules dont allow you to combine the effects of two different weapons...
I wonder if it is clearer in the english dex...

I'm pretty sure I will be getting the new codex next week at some point. I know I have mentioned this before in other threads (like every week for the last 3 weeks), but I have finally got the store owner's solemn promise.

If no-one else replies before then, I can give you a definate answer.


Back to what Warpcrafter mentioned though. I for 1 welcome the change. For too long nids have had better firepower than close combat ability. Doesn't really fit with the fluff. Now not only are we getting a load of ultra killy cc units, but we also have ways to manage uber units (nob bikers, harlequins with eldrad in a serpent etc) by reducing all manner of characteristics. Great fun is going to be had.

What are the rules regarding the appearance of other Tyranids from a Trygon hole?

Darth Bob wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Remember folks, unless the centre of the template hits the Tank, that'll be a S3, not a S6 hit....

This was just talked about a page or two back. I personally have resolved that because it does not explicitly describe it as a blast weapon, then it does not follow that rule (which would entail that it is, in fact, a blast weapon).

Ah fair enough. Certainly precedence for this sort of thing in the big missile thingy for the Guard whose name escapes me at the moment. Deathstrike, that's the one!

Oldoneeye wrote:What are the rules regarding the appearance of other Tyranids from a Trygon hole?

Do you mean appearance as in "Enemies just appeared over there!" or physical appearance as in "His appearance is very sloppy."

Assuming you mean the first, it pretty much acts as a way for Tyranids to deepstrike without fear of scatter, that's about it. Assuming it's the second, the Tyranids don't look any different.

Its fairly useless. It's one unit from reserve and can only show up on the following turn. Also, the hole can be blocked by enemies. Also, the arriving unit may not assault.

In other news, does anyone else notice that Nids are really bad in Apoc now? With the loss of EW, those lovely Carnifex formation are one pie plate from splat, same with just about everything in the army.

That may be true, but our gargantuan creatures are still cheaper than they should be and we are forced into taking swarms instead of a handful of MC's. I think it balances out reasonably well. Combined with a few strategic assets and formations we should still be ok.

Darth Bob wrote:In other news, does anyone else notice that Nids are really bad in Apoc now? With the loss of EW, those lovely Carnifex formation are one pie plate from splat, same with just about everything in the army.

Not that terrible. After all, Synpase made little sense before against SD Weapons. It would take at least 4 shots to knacker a Carnifex, whereas a Heirodule could be obliterated in two.

Anyone have confirmation or denial on this rumour:

The Zoanthrope Special Character has a special ability all units within 6 inches have to take a leadership test on 3d6 what they lose by is how many wounds the unit takes with no armour saves allowed.


Seems rather unbalanced.

Hollismason wrote:Anyone have confirmation or denial on this rumour:

The Zoanthrope Special Character has a special ability all units within 6 inches have to take a leadership test on 3d6 what they lose by is how many wounds the unit takes with no armour saves allowed.


Seems rather unbalanced.

I'm pretty sure that confirmed, and he also absorbs those wounds onto himself. Although at T4 he's just one lucky ML shot away from instant death.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Remember folks, unless the centre of the template hits the Tank, that'll be a S3, not a S6 hit....

This was just talked about a page or two back. I personally have resolved that because it does not explicitly describe it as a blast weapon, then it does not follow that rule (which would entail that it is, in fact, a blast weapon).

Ah fair enough. Certainly precedence for this sort of thing in the big missile thingy for the Guard whose name escapes me at the moment.

Its only precedence of a special exclusion of 'centre of blast' for a specific blast weapon. Doesn't really relate much to the Mawloc's absence of exclusion in the absence of being described as a blast weapon in the first place!

Hive2003 wrote:Hey,

does anyone here got the englisch dex?
I got the german dex and i think there is a problem with the sword/ lash combo. These are two cc weapons, but the rules dont allow you to combine the effects of two different weapons...
I wonder if it is clearer in the english dex...

What rule would disallow it? I don't see one anywhere in the German codex. The only thing I see mentioned is the little bit on page 33 that mentions you don't get any bonus attacks for having multiple close combat weapons (e.g. a pair of boneswords), as those attacks are already included in the creature's profile.

The core rulebook specifies that normally if you have multiple special weapons you have to pick one; you can't combine effects.

Of course it's entirely possible that the nid dex has a special rule exempting them.

Mannahnin wrote:The core rulebook specifies that normally if you have multiple special weapons you have to pick one; you can't combine effects.

Of course it's entirely possible that the nid dex has a special rule exempting them.

Well the only thing I see that would come close is that the army list introduction page mentions that Tyranids don't carry typical close combat weapons but attack by claw and fang, which is why they don't get any bonus attacks for having multiple weapons.

I would say that the Lashwhip and Bonesword combo is something like the Stormshield and Thunderhammer. It's not like an Assault Terminator has to choose between the invulnerable save and the S8 attack.

That was exactly my thinking as well redemption. It's not an actual weapon, more of a defense.

That was exactly my thinking as well redemption. It's not an actual weapon, more of a defense.

Right, I don't think it is an issue for the lash whips. However there is still a question with Toxin Sacs. I am curious how poison will interact with boneswords -- and more importantly rending and implant attack, since they benefit immensly from a reroll to wound. It seems like they combine but I am not 100% sure.

According to the rules for special close combat weapons, you have to choose one effect or another, so a Warrior with Rending Claws, a pair of Boneswords, and an Implant Attack would have 3 separate options, rather than one all-singing all-dancing chest-bursting attack.

I think the issue is whether or not those things are actually close combat weapons since the codex apparently states that Tyranids don't have close combat weapons, per se. In your example, their "weapon" would be rending claws, while they'd have the benefits from implants and boneswords. That sounds a little weird to me, but I'd be happy if that's how it played out.

Except that for the purposes of the 40k Assault rules close combat is carried out using close combat weapons, which either leave the model's profile unmodified, provide a bonus in the case of multiple close combat weapons, or provide some bonus in the case of special close combat weapon.

It's like saying: "A Tyranids claws are not close combat weapons per se, but for the purposes of the rules we're going to act like they are." That distinguishes between the fluff, according to which the so-called weapons are really parts of the Tyranid 'wielding' them, and the rules, according to which they have such-and-such weapons.

Toxin Sacs and Implant Attack at least are Biomorphs and not Weapons.

Aduro:

Don't you bring your filthy 'facts' and 'logic' into this discussion...

Nurglitch wrote:According to the rules for special close combat weapons, you have to choose one effect or another, so a Warrior with Rending Claws, a pair of Boneswords, and an Implant Attack would have 3 separate options, rather than one all-singing all-dancing chest-bursting attack.

Rending claws would be fairly worthless with boneswords anyway, since the boneswords ignore armor, and they're probably wounding on a 4+ already against meq.

You'd get the bonus for penetrating vehicles though.

And if your hitting vehicles, then the Bone Swords don't do anything, so you can just use the claws. I think the only real conflict you're going to have is Scything Talons + ??? on stuff.

True but I guess that's the choice you make. Do I want to pop heavy vehicle or do I want to guarantee dead infantry/dead characters?

It's not a choice really, as the rule book doesn't make having different close combat weapons illegal, you just can't use them at the same time. Go ahead and take Bone Swords and Rending Claws if you want, and when you're fighting guys use the swords, and when you're fighting tanks use the claws. If people really make an issue of `Nids having multiple special weapons, the only combination that is likely to cause any TFG problems are Swords or Claws combined with Scytals.

In any case it will be a case of codex > brb.

If it were the other way around then all these years using 2 sets of Scytals to get +2 attacks would have been illegal.

Inquiry:

Hive Tyrant
- Pair of Scything talons allows you to reroll all misses in CC.
- Ancient Enemy gives you Preferred Enemy (reroll misses in CC).

Does the Hive Tyrant benefit from his own Ancient Enemy ability (and therefore make a Pair of Scything talons, or one pair for that matter, a waste of weapon slots)?

Darth Bob wrote:Inquiry:

Hive Tyrant
- Pair of Scything talons allows you to reroll all misses in CC.
- Ancient Enemy gives you Preferred Enemy (reroll misses in CC).

Does the Hive Tyrant benefit from his own Ancient Enemy ability (and therefore make a Pair of Scything talons, or one pair for that matter, a waste of weapon slots)?

Preferred Enemy is specific, while Scything Talons is general, so I would go with the general advantage. Surely they wouldn't stack.

I think he means if a Hive Tyrant has Ancient Enemy, which gives all `Nids within 6" Prefered Enemy, does the Tyrant have and reason to keep his Scything Talons? I would say no.

warpcrafter wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:Inquiry:

Hive Tyrant
- Pair of Scything talons allows you to reroll all misses in CC.
- Ancient Enemy gives you Preferred Enemy (reroll misses in CC).

Does the Hive Tyrant benefit from his own Ancient Enemy ability (and therefore make a Pair of Scything talons, or one pair for that matter, a waste of weapon slots)?

Preferred Enemy is specific, while Scything Talons is general, so I would go with the general advantage. Surely they wouldn't stack.

Aduro hit it on the head. I'm not asking whether they would stack, I'm asking if you would have any insentive to keep the Talons when you just get to reroll hits from Ancient Enemy.

Yeah, it seems that you wouldn't. It seems that in this case, one or the other is redundant and needs to be replaced in the codex or the scything talons need to be re purposed. It's sort of like giving Ork Nobs cybork bodies and having a big mek with a kustom Force Field. The cybork bodies cannot be taken away, and they also work in close combat, whereas the KFF save is only against shooting and if the mek is killed, there it goes.

warpcrafter wrote:Yeah, it seems that you wouldn't. It seems that in this case, one or the other is redundant and needs to be replaced in the codex or the scything talons need to be re purposed. It's sort of like giving Ork Nobs cybork bodies and having a big mek with a kustom Force Field. The cybork bodies cannot be taken away, and they also work in close combat, whereas the KFF save is only against shooting and if the mek is killed, there it goes.

I agree, they should keep the Scytals the same except change it to Wounds instead of hits.

Preferred enemy doesn't work against vehicles -- scytals reroll does. Up to you if that is worthwhile.

That and you start with Scytals for "free", while Preferred Enemy is an upgrade that costs points. You can trade out the Scytals for other weapons, and then get your rerolls back with a further upgrade.

winterman wrote:Preferred enemy doesn't work against vehicles -- scytals reroll does. Up to you if that is worthwhile.

This is true. I guess that could be one redeeming quality.

Another question.

Hive Guard. Since they don't need LoS to shoot their weapons, can they always hit tanks in the rear armor regardless of where they are?

Darth Bob wrote:

winterman wrote:Preferred enemy doesn't work against vehicles -- scytals reroll does. Up to you if that is worthwhile.

This is true. I guess that could be one redeeming quality.

Another question.

Hive Guard. Since they don't need LoS to shoot their weapons, can they always hit tanks in the rear armor regardless of where they are?

Only the side they are facing.


Hive Guard rock though ^^. That elite slot has some heavy competition......

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

winterman wrote:Preferred enemy doesn't work against vehicles -- scytals reroll does. Up to you if that is worthwhile.

This is true. I guess that could be one redeeming quality.

Another question.

Hive Guard. Since they don't need LoS to shoot their weapons, can they always hit tanks in the rear armor regardless of where they are?

Only the side they are facing.


Hive Guard rock though ^^. That elite slot has some heavy competition......

Is that made explicitly clear in the codex, because if you don't need Line of Sight then why would you only be able to shoot the side that you can see?

Vehicles are on side the Hive Guard is facing. Enemies only receive cover if inside or in contact with cover between them and the Hive Guard.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Vehicles are on side the Hive Guard is facing. Enemies only receive cover if inside or in contact with cover between them and the Hive Guard.

Okeydoke, as long as there is confirmation in the Codex. If not that would be incredibly broken.

Darth Bob wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Vehicles are on side the Hive Guard is facing. Enemies only receive cover if inside or in contact with cover between them and the Hive Guard.

Okeydoke, as long as there is confirmation in the Codex. If not that would be incredibly broken.

They're already pretty strong. Some of the review I started;

http://op40k.blogspot.com/

@ CC Weapons.

Especially the lash/ sword combo seems to be a Problem.
Both of them are stated as CC Weapons and therefore i have to choose wether i use the lash or the sword.
That would be a huge disappointment and i think it should be more like the shield/ Hammer combo...
But raw doesnt allow this to (german?) Nid players...

Mh... If it's true that you have to choose between close combat weapons, rending claws and scything talons, my favourite combo, is pretty damn worthless.

Greets
Schepp himself

i doubt GW would do that. one of my pet peeves is armies/units that completely ignore general rules. nids and demons are two armies that don't really play 40k since they break/bend so many general rules per their own special codex rules. i'd suspect that GW doesn't give the extra attack for 2 weapons but lets you combine the rules as a result.

how do deep striking spore mines work in the new codex? i'm not very familiar with the current rules for them but i assume that they blow up if they land on or near an enemy and don't have to worry about mishaps. if you're using a unit of DSing spore mines, do you have to deploy them in a tight circle per the normal deep strike or do they scatter individually?

Hive2003 wrote:@ CC Weapons.

Especially the lash/ sword combo seems to be a Problem.
Both of them are stated as CC Weapons and therefore i have to choose wether i use the lash or the sword.
That would be a huge disappointment and i think it should be more like the shield/ Hammer combo...
But raw doesnt allow this to (german?) Nid players...

It's exactly like the hammer/shield combination. The fact that you can buy them together most times in indicative of this.

You never "strike" with the lash whip in CC, in fact it's never brought up except as a defensive measure, exactly like the stormshield. So if any marine player tells you this one, then kindly ask him to ignore his 3++ save.

I would not put it past them to make a basic mistake like that.

I thought the choice of weapon use was only important specifically in the step of declaring which attacks use which weapons. Weapons that have static effects like storm shields and lash whips are simply "always on" since their effects aren't used in the actual attack rolls, and those are the only places where the "one weapon effect" rule comes into being.

ShumaGorath wrote:Weapons that have static effects like storm shields and lash whips are simply "always on" since their effects aren't used in the actual attack rolls, and those are the only places where the "one weapon effect" rule comes into being.

QFT

Marrak wrote:It's exactly like the hammer/shield combination. The fact that you can buy them together most times in indicative of this.

You never "strike" with the lash whip in CC, in fact it's never brought up except as a defensive measure, exactly like the stormshield. So if any marine player tells you this one, then kindly ask him to ignore his 3++ save.

The storm shield is not a Special CC weapon though. It is listed under "other equipment" in the SM Codex.


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Clay Williams wrote:In any case it will be a case of codex > brb.

If it were the other way around then all these years using 2 sets of Scytals to get +2 attacks would have been illegal.

Except the 4rth edition codex for nids has a specific allowance that over-rides the BRB.

Pg 31 wrote:Tyranid creatures can use all of its close combat biomorphs in an assault and is not limmited to using one at a time like most models.

We haven't heard if this new codex has this specific allowance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:I would not put it past them to make a basic mistake like that.

I doubt it would be a mistake as much as an intentional change. They pretty much have changed everything, so I wouldn't put it past them either.

My friend in Germany that has been to a game store and seen the codex has said that on the page that has the tyranid special rules, on the top right, there is a paragraph that translates to something like...

"tyrnids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

So, if two pairs of rending claws or two pairs of scything talons don't give +1 attack, then it seems that they are not in fact weapons at all, and so are protected from this rules loop hole.

When a tyranid with toxin sacs, rending claws, and boneswords attacks it is with its teeth and claws, he just has abilities that are quite similar to the special close combat weapons poisoned weapon, rending weapon, and power weapon. He doesn't have any special weapons though...

Wyomingfox said it all. That the problem if take the rules as written and therefore we cant use both, the lash and the sword.
But i fell confident that GW missed their own rules and it should be used togehter. But RAW does not allow that...

Well, the Tyranid close combat weapons are all described as 'close combat attacks by a Tyranid creature equipped with this weapon...'.

E.g. for Rending Claws: 'Close combat attacks from a model with Rending Claws count as Rending, as described ...', or Bone Sword: 'No armour saves are allowed for wounds caused in close combat by a Tyranid creature equipped with Bone Swords, ...', instead of just saying it is a Power weapon.

While wielded weapons are usually described as something like e.g. the Powerfist: '...attacks with a Power Fist are always delivered at Initiative 1...' or the Relic Blade: 'A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose...'.

So even for RAW junkies you could make an argument that the rules say they're not close combat weapons, but just cummulative modifiers for all the creature's close combat attacks. It never says anywhere that the Tyranid weapons count as any of the special weapons covered in the BRB, unlike the special close combat weapons in other 5E codexes, e.g. the Relic Blade, Frost Axe or Wolf Claw, which all have a 'count as x' with some added rules.

I can see this becoming just like the Deff rolla issue...

Absolutely ; also kind of curious as to whether if they have boneswords and rending claws if they give the advantage of both. Or Poison and Boneswords etc..

Boneswords and Poison with Adrenal Gland is pretty sweet because of the poison rules.

Hollismason wrote:Absolutely ; also kind of curious as to whether if they have boneswords and rending claws if they give the advantage of both. Or Poison and Boneswords etc..

Boneswords and Poison with Adrenal Gland is pretty sweet because of the poison rules.

Boneswords and Rending don't need to give the advantage of both, since Boneswords will always be better vs Infantry, and Rending better vs vehicles. Poison, aka Toxin Sacs, is a Biomorph, not a weapon, so they would stack just fine. I think the only weapon you'll have issues with are the Scything Talons being combined with something else.

Went to GW and asked why does Tervigon need both Trygon and Carnifex to convert. 4 Staff in store never even heard of them. Even the staff have no enthusiasm for their own products?

ÆΞØИ wrote:Went to GW and asked why does Tervigon need both Trygon and Carnifex to convert. 4 Staff in store never even heard of them. Even the staff have no enthusiasm for their own products?

Welcome to working retail.

Has the Codex even been released yet?

Kanluwen wrote:Has the Codex even been released yet?

Why would we let a minor detail like that stop us from debating the rules?

Shep wrote:"tyranids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

All this tells us is really two things:

Tyranids have abilities that mimic close combat weapons but are not close combat weapons

Tyranids never recieve a bonus to attacks for having more than two close combat weapons

This doesn't allow you to use two different special close combat weapons, so it really comes down to how they define the various upgrades in the codex. If per se, they define all the upgrades as biomorphes and in the unit entry, the models are stated to be armed with "teeth and claws" then there will be no problem with benefitting from a lashwhip and bonesword simultaneously. However, if they define these as "special close combat weapons", then you will be restricted to using only one at a time per the BRB (unless they have some other caveate like the 4rth edition dex did).

Aduro wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Has the Codex even been released yet?

Why would we let a minor detail like that stop us from debating the rules?

I was meaning as to why the redshirt registermonkeys would know what a Tervigon(a creature that needs to be converted from a Trygon/Carnifex) would be.

wyomingfox wrote:

Shep wrote:"tyranids have a lot of abilities that are similar to close combat weapons, but tyrniads only ever fight with their teeth and claws, therefore they can never receive a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons."

All this tells us is really two things:

Tyranids have abilities that mimic close combat weapons but are not close combat weapons

Tyranids never recieve a bonus to attacks for having more than two close combat weapons

This doesn't allow you to use two different special close combat weapons, so it really comes down to how they define the various upgrades in the codex. If per se, they define all the upgrades as biomorphes and in the unit entry, the models are stated to be armed with "teeth and claws" then there will be no problem with benefiting from a lashwhip and bonesword simultaneously. However, if they define these as "special close combat weapons", then you will be restricted to using only one at a time per the BRB (unless they have some other caveate like the 4rth edition dex did).

This is some great rules lawyering, but in the end, just like every nid codex before this, and after, all the bonuses will count. Period. If they do go above and beyond and change this, then they will no longer give 2 sets of close combat weapons. Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

Abbadon's sword specifically states how attacks must be allocated.

tell me Fox, do screamer killers have to choose between which of the 4 scythes they use? They are armed with 2 pair. Its does state that one pair allows you to reroll 1's, 2 pair allow you to reroll all misses.

This rule breaks the BBB, and it does not explicitly state that it does, it just states what these weapons do.

Since it does not state that it is in exception to the BBB, then what do Carnifex do? Pic a single claw and roll? What about ones with claws and scythes? Just pic one scythe?

It's rules lawyer garbage like this that create bad rules systems, the spirit of the rule is there. Dbaggery like this is what makes companies have to chase down rules with other rules.

It is rather stupid to debate these issues when the codex has not even been release yet.

the problems will be here.

Hollismason wrote:It is rather stupid to debate these issues when the codex has not even been release yet.

yes but this is dakka we are aloud to argue about things we can't change

out of wondering in WD it said we got 30 codex entreies but i can't count that may watch:

hive tryant
guard
alhpa warrior
tevigon
zeons
hive guard
squigface
proyove
ymarl stealers
parasit of some thing
lictor
death leaper
gaunt
hormogaunt
stealer
warriors
winged warriors
garagolyes
spore mines
raveners
harpies
bivore
fex
trygon
mawloc
on and ripers
so thats 26 beast so what have i missed ??

oldone wrote:
out of wondering in WD it said we got 30 codex entreies but i can't count that may watch:

...

so thats 26 beast so what have i missed ??

Swarmlord, Doom of Malan'tai (Zoanthrope special character), Mycetic Spore (drop pod), Winged Rippers, Old One Eye, Trygon Alpha (although it is the same codex entry as the Trygon) and the Tyrannofex

Squigface? Sounds like something from the Orks Codex.

warpcrafter wrote:Squigface? Sounds like something from the Orks Codex.

I assume he means the Venomthrope.

yes i do mean that i just can't spell
right thanks for poniting them out to me what is the last one i haven't read any ruomours about him(her.....it)
oh and this arguement on the lash wipe and bonesswords surely you by them toghter on a tryant and there for are one combat weapon togher???? or am i wrong/ just had a thought in WD did the raveners get both rending and rerolls for the battle report cos this will answer the qusetion
OT if i give my warriors FNP and my oppents shoot them with a heavy bolter and i get a cover save form mass gaunts then do i get FNP????

You can use the search function in YMDC to find out about how FNP works. There are a ton of threads about it (but the answer is yes).

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

I will laugh when the codex comes out, and it turns out that really, the passage saying we could fight with multiple weapons translated poorly.

Hive2003 wrote:

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

But this is what I don't get. If they are clearly stated as CC weapons, and if you have 2 of them you should get the +1A then. To say they can't get the +1A is a Nerf to the 'Nids for no reason. (Maybe to buff the SM again without a new codex)

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I will laugh when the codex comes out, and it turns out that really, the passage saying we could fight with multiple weapons translated poorly.

Yeah me too.
Im really hoping its like that, or we will get asap a FaQ...

"FAQ" and "ASAP" cannot exist in the same sentence when the word "GW" is within two pages.

How about some new rumors/facts/models(?) about the new codex?

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, as has been stated earlier, all the Tyranid close combat weapons are already worded differently from all the wielded weapons in the BRB and codex, and more like passive buffs.
Add that to the rule that say Tyranid close combat weapons don't fall under the regular close combat weapon rules, and IMHO you have a solid RAW case that you can use all the weapon biomorph effects simultaniously.

But I'm sure this discussion will be held ad infinitum in the YMTC section of the board, so we should probably give it a rest here, it's derailing the thread.

Davor wrote:

Hive2003 wrote:

Slave wrote:Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

No thats wrong.
Stormshields do not count as CC Weapons, they are additional equipment. Thats a minor difference.
But in the Nid dex, lash, claws, sowrds etc. are all clearly stated as CC Weapons. And you cant use both of them.

But this is what I don't get. If they are clearly stated as CC weapons, and if you have 2 of them you should get the +1A then. To say they can't get the +1A is a Nerf to the 'Nids for no reason. (Maybe to buff the SM again without a new codex)

Tyranids never benefited from multiple close combat weapons. It's why they have so many attacks in their profile. But nice try.

Schepp himself wrote:
How about some new rumors/facts/models(?) about the new codex?

Ok i will give it a rest, till we get the english dex.

But more rumors? You can read the dex in every GW store. (At least in Germany...)

oldone wrote:

Hollismason wrote:It is rather stupid to debate these issues when the codex has not even been release yet.

yes but this is dakka we are aloud to argue about things we can't change

out of wondering in WD it said we got 30 codex entreies but i can't count that may watch:

hive tryant
guard
alhpa warrior
tevigon
zeons
hive guard
squigface
proyove
ymarl stealers
parasit of some thing
lictor
death leaper
gaunt
hormogaunt
stealer
warriors
winged warriors
garagolyes
spore mines
raveners
harpies
bivore
fex
trygon
mawloc
on and ripers
so thats 26 beast so what have i missed ??

Crap that's a bit more than the 4th edition codex.

Thing is with the Scytalons thing it makes Tyrant guard useless as well as Lictors.

With such few attacks why would you EVER use the talons and not the rending claws? On the charge the Lictor gets 5 attacks, you roll a single 1 on average, which even with reroll isn't a guaranteed hit or you use claws and while not getting to reroll that 1 you can possibly roll 1 or more 6 (and against vehicles S6 rending is better than rerolling one of your 1's. Sure there are times when you roll 5 1's but that is going to be rare.

Also makes talons on stealers pointless. 2pts/Stealer to reroll 1's but giving up the Rending hits. No thanks.

I mean, technically right now Talons are considered weapon biomorphs but always give +1 attack even if you don't use them.

Yeah GW messes up but to make Talons useless for anything other than taking 2 pairs and not using any other CC weapon is just a wish for the rules lawyers.

Let's also see what the English 'dex says. I know in the past there has been wording problems due to translation issues in translating from English to other languages.

Yeah wait for the English Codex , again though i would not put this past GW at al of course anyone who says this you are allowed to punch in the face you have my permission.

Hive2003 wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:
How about some new rumors/facts/models(?) about the new codex?

Ok i will give it a rest, till we get the english dex.

But more rumors? You can read the dex in every GW store. (At least in Germany...)

Not here in Ontario, and from what I read and herd, the rest of North Amercia. You Germans are lucky.

I'm sure a copy has found its way into the Warp.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm sure a copy has found its way into the Warp.

If it has I haven't found it. I doubt it will hit the net until it's released to stores, unlawful release by the printers would get them in a pretty significant amount of legal trouble.

Slave wrote:This is some great rules lawyering, but in the end, just like every nid codex before this, and after, all the bonuses will count. Period. If they do go above and beyond and change this, then they will no longer give 2 sets of close combat weapons. Space marines will not use a storm shield with a thunder hammer. Its takes up a CC weapon slot, so it is a CC weapon.

Well, ignoring your name calling, you really should have read my previous post

The storm shield is not a Special CC weapon. It is listed under "other equipment" in the SM Codex. I don't believe there is such a thing as a CC weapon slot, but if there were, then bolters, heavy weapons, ect. would also take up such a slot and they are not special CC weapons.

Slave wrote:tell me Fox, do screamer killers have to choose between which of the 4 scythes they use? They are armed with 2 pair. Its does state that one pair allows you to reroll 1's, 2 pair allow you to reroll all misses.

This rule breaks the BBB, and it does not explicitly state that it does, it just states what these weapons do.

Since it does not state that it is in exception to the BBB, then what do Carnifex do? Pic a single claw and roll? What about ones with claws and scythes? Just pic one scythe?

Well in the 4rth edition codex for nids they had a specific allowance that over-rode the BRB.

Pg 31 wrote:Tyranid creatures can use all of its close combat biomorphs in an assault and is not limmited to using one at a time like most models.

I am still waiting (and hoping) to hear if this new codex has this specific allowance. Of course, they might not reference any of these upgrades as CC weapon, in which case they are just wargear buffs and can be used without limmits. I am just not going to assume that they haven't changed the dynamics of nid weapons on purpose, especially given the massive changes they have made so far.