Well, your the master of the obvious.

The codex states:

That it is unknown whether we are simply the next galaxy to be consumed, OR that the tyranids are perhaps fleeing a greater threat!

It APPEARS that the Tyranids are being drawn by the astronomican.

They are a grave threat to the Galaxy, and that the only way we could defeat them is if the galaxy put aside their differences and fought side by side. (So, Tau, Eldar, Kroot, Vespid, IoM, and Orks will have to kick ass TOGHETHER.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:
So... that was a long rant. Kinda mindless actually. Oh well!

Nothing of the sort fellow loyalist!

Faithful: Who are those pics of? It fits perfectly!

It's an Xzibit meme...thing. The interent does this. *shrug*

Golden Sabres wrote:
1) It doesn't say it quite literally. This quote is open to interpratation, and I interpret this as the Eldar forming into Ynnead and then being returned back to the material plane. (How else would Ynnead gather more power if the Eldar race doesn't exist? If he doesn't return them, he will be alive for what, 10 minutes? Unless he draws his power from all races deaths, but then he would be the most powerful being in 40k.)

2) You know what a farseer is right? You know who Eldrad is right?

1) Ynnead always struck me as a Deus Ex Machina from the Eldar. A final bitchslap into the warp, if you will. Ynnead would likely expend all his energy taking down Slaanesh anyway.

2) You do know that Farseers never speak with certainty (unless they've done their job of dickery very well) right? That they try to pluck out the different strands of fate and do their best to guide their race along the best looking one...right? Nothing about this prediction makes Ynnead a certainty.

asimo77 wrote:That doesn't answer my question all it shows is the winner starting to go downhill due to infighting. Successfully conquering the galaxy has nothing to due with their infighting, it happens after the fact.

Ah, my bad. Well, Orks grow big and strong off of a diet of dakka and choppa.

They end up with more tanks and warbosses if they fight each other than if they don't. They end up with less than if they had worked together and could grow tough without fighting but they can't.

Ynnead always struck me as a Deus Ex Machina from the Eldar. A final bitchslap into the warp, if you will. Ynnead would likely expend all his energy taking down Slaanesh anyway.

Golden Sabres, I'm going to agree with EF on this one. I think the reaon the eldar think Ynnead could be the solution is they finally get to prove they can beat Slaanesh and afterwards they get to die peacefully rather than being torn apart.

4M2A wrote:

Ynnead always struck me as a Deus Ex Machina from the Eldar. A final bitchslap into the warp, if you will. Ynnead would likely expend all his energy taking down Slaanesh anyway.

Golden Sabres, I'm going to agree with EF on this one. I think the reaon the eldar think Ynnead could be the solution is they finally get to prove they can beat Slaanesh and afterwards they get to die peacefully rather than being torn apart.

Biel-tan would certainly have something to say about that...

Meh, this is still irrelevant. Guardsman Marbo wins!

Necrons just don't die. The Imperium (or humanity at least) would get somewhere, but in the end would just be enslaved by the Necrons. Unless, of course, the new Necrons codex takes away We'll Be Back....

Necrons can die.

Vaporize them and there's nothing left for them to call back.

Idk if anyones else remembers the part where it mentions IG using necron invasions as training exercises. Its in the big rule book. For all you non believers in the emperor, most beloved of all, just look this part up on PG. 179 and let your faith be restored.

Golden Sabres wrote:
Biel-tan would certainly have something to say about that...

Doesn't that prove that Biel-Tan either haven't heard or don't believe in the rumour of Ynnead?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:
Biel-tan would certainly have something to say about that...

Doesn't that prove that Biel-Tan either haven't heard or don't believe in the rumour of Ynnead?

I'd imagine that the Eldar race would be divided... but I say that because the Eldar of Biel-tan believe one thing.

The Eldar will rise again and reforge the Empire.

Even the Eldar know it will be the Orks - Direct from Uthan the Perverse mouth

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude. - Codex:Orks (4th Edition) might also be in the BRB.

Might not say it exactly but it is awfully hinted in his words - Go Orkies !!!

Pilau Rice wrote:Even the Eldar know it will be the Orks - Direct from Uthan the Perverse mouth

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude. - Codex:Orks (4th Edition) might also be in the BRB.

Might not say it exactly but it is awfully hinted in his words - Go Orkies !!!

I dunno wot you been told,

Stormboy mobs is mighty bold,

We're da hardest of da lot,

We make you lot look like Grots.


Gotta love Ork quotes.

Also, btw, that Eldar philosopher is an idiot according to the rest of the Eldar race.

Uthan the Perverse...kind of makes you wonder whether his admiration for the greenskins didn't go a little further.

Golden Sabres wrote:

Also, btw, that Eldar philosopher is an idiot according to the rest of the Eldar race.

But he speaks so much truth though

Emperors Faithful wrote:Uthan the Perverse...kind of makes you wonder whether his admiration for the greenskins didn't go a little further.

Apparently he carried a Snotling around with him at all times in his man bag ...

Ooh, something from the Imperium point of view that I stumbled across

The Orks plague the galaxy from the end to end with their ceaseless warring and strife. They are a race rooted so deeply in war that peace is utterly incomprehensible to them. They cannot be bargained with or bought save with weapons that they will inevitable turn against those who tried to bribe them. I pray with all my faith that some great catastrophe will annihilate them but I fear that ultimately it is they, not we, who shall rule the galaxy - Xanthius, High Lord of Terra - Codex:Orks (4th Edition) p. 92

2 up for the Orks

But who says a certain race has to prevail? Isn't it just as likely that the Fog of War will never lift and that The Emperor will forever be holding off Deamons and Tyranids and Orks?
Although it's likely that some lesser races will die, according to some of the posts here many of the races are undefeatable, which suggests a cycle of unending War.

There have been lots of posts about destroying necrons by vaporising but we just don't have enough information to know whether that would work.

One main idea (not sure where it's from) is that all necrons are constantly being pulled back by teleportation machines in their tombs but part of them blocks this. This machine is broken whn a necron is seriously damaged. If this is the case (of all the theories it make most sense- most other ideas can't explain why people can't damage the part of the necrons that teleports them away) then it depends how fast this machine is as to whether vaporisation would work. When vaporise a necron you are destroying it just very fast and to a very small level. If the machine is fast enough it could pull the necron back before it has been fully vaporised.

Eldar will retreat to the webways to fight DE, the winner will come to fight the Necrons who will obviously win like they did before, Nids aren't a threat to them as they aren't living (the Necrons) and all 4 C'tan will simultaniously rip the Emperor apart.

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:But that same thinking is what makes the Orks such a threat! They will just keep on fighting because its what they love to do.

Im not really familiar with Imperium lore but if they can nuke planets like that then why the hell havnt they done it already?

If they virus bomb or scour the planet to make it unlivable the Imperium loses a habitable world. If such as you say cleansing the planet from orbit was the norm the Imperium would slowly destroy the very assets it needs to survive. Yes lifeless planets can be exploited but at much higher overhead costs.

Robscrob wrote:But who says a certain race has to prevail? Isn't it just as likely that the Fog of War will never lift and that The Emperor will forever be holding off Deamons and Tyranids and Orks?
Although it's likely that some lesser races will die, according to some of the posts here many of the races are undefeatable, which suggests a cycle of unending War.

Ding! Ding! The book harps on the theme of unending war. Therefore, there will be no final race standing, just a buncha dudes smacking each other to rocks if it comes to that.

phantommaster wrote:Eldar will retreat to the webways to fight DE, the winner will come to fight the Necrons who will obviously win like they did before, Nids aren't a threat to them as they aren't living (the Necrons) and all 4 C'tan will simultaniously rip the Emperor apart.

1. The Necrons did not win the war.

2. The four C'tan are not allies (or is the fact that they want to consume one another just rumour ).

3. If the Emperor was at full strength he would rip THEM apart.

4. If the Eldar do retreat to the Dark Eldar realm, they would most likely ally with eachother, not fight.

1. Tyranids will consume ork spores, meaning orks don't come back.

2. Tyranids work as one, orks can barely stop killing eachother.

3. If a tyranid splinter fleet loses, a ship will attempt to escape, merge with another fleet, sharing all the genetic adaptations produced from fighting orks.

Basically, even when tyranids lose, they win.

I personally think it will be a tossup between Nids and Orks. And i agree with the post above ^

Golden Sabres wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Eldar will retreat to the webways to fight DE, the winner will come to fight the Necrons who will obviously win like they did before, Nids aren't a threat to them as they aren't living (the Necrons) and all 4 C'tan will simultaniously rip the Emperor apart.

1. The Necrons did not win the war.

Actually, they almost won, they just went to sleep to let life rise again after the Enslaver Plauge.

2. The four C'tan are not allies (or is the fact that they want to consume one another just rumour ).

The Deciever would probably manipulate them into doing that if he wants to.

3. If the Emperor was at full strength he would rip THEM apart.

Hahahaha...
NO.
He defeated one C'tan, while it was weak.

4. If the Eldar do retreat to the Dark Eldar realm, they would most likely ally with eachother, not fight.

Maybe. So? They would still die.

Golden Sabres wrote:

necrongod wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:
You know, it's weird, how come in this thread no-one has discussed the many heroes (or villians) in 40k that could possibly turn the tide of this struggle?

void dragon! duh!

He is the only one mentioned... What about Old one eye, swarmlord, captain Al'rahem, Knight commander pask, commander chenkov, doom of malan'tai, prince yriel, pheonix lords (these guys deserve a bit of credit (actually, just maugan ra (The guy who stood ALONE against a hive fleet and won))), Shadowsun, Farsight, that tau etherereal guy, Calgar, Mephiston, Dante (Dante would own), Abbadon, Kharn, Khaine (war god), Typhus, Lucius, various daemon princes, Ghazkull, Yarrick, Wazdakka gutsmek, mad doc grotsnick, that ork weirdboy guy, that stormboy guy (yes, i do not know all the heroes of 40k), Nightbringer, Deciever, Telion, Tigurius, Lord Castellan Creed, Seargent Kell, seargent bastonne, colonel straken, gunnery seargent harker, Mogul Kamir, Nork Deddog, Death leaper.

And of course the reason the IoM wins this contest, the Rambo of the far future.

Spoiler:

Guardsman Marbo!

i just mentioned the void dragon becuase its RIGHT NEXT to terra

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids work as one, orks can barely stop killing eachother.

Orks only attack eachother when there's noone else.

But this is not a bad thing for Orks.

PEACE would be a bad thing for Orks.

Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Orks are always growing and making more weapons, every day that passes new Orks are born and join in. They constantly get stronger as well.

Judging from how this is going, I'm thinking the orks and tyranids will just fight forever.

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Orks get stronger the more they fight.

Orks are always fighting.

Ergo, Orks are always getting stronger.

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Adapting to what?

The reason you don't include daemons is because they would obviously be the last ones standing...first--they don't truly die, just return to the warp...second, you can't kill chaos itself...third, everytime other races fight it just fuels the daemons more...so the last one standing would have to face daemons and that would be over quick!

Chaos can be killed, if nids, crons or orks win chaos will starve.

Nids have no emotion and will leave the galaxy empty if they win.

Necrons have no emotion, will leave the galaxy empty and will seperate the warp from realspace so chaos can't every enter.

Orks will keep fighting and infest so many planets that gork and mork will take over the warp.

Klawz wrote:

1. The Necrons did not win the war.

Actually, they almost won, they just went to sleep to let life rise again after the Enslaver Plauge.

2. The four C'tan are not allies (or is the fact that they want to consume one another just rumour ).

The Deciever would probably manipulate them into doing that if he wants to.

That's like saying the Chaos Gods are all united because of Tzeench.

3. If the Emperor was at full strength he would rip THEM apart.

Hahahaha...
NO.
He defeated one C'tan, while it was weak.

Yeah. Isn't that a point against the C'tan?

Melissia wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Orks get stronger the more they fight.

Orks are always fighting.

Ergo, Orks are always getting stronger.

Individual Orks right?

Scrabb wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Adapting to what?

What he probably meant was evolving. Adapting to ones environment, though that would usually require a change in your current one to happen.

Scrabb wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids, though not always fighting, are still always adapting, even when not in combat. This means that they are constantly getting stronger, while orks are just strong.

Adapting to what?

The fact that Orks would be the last one standing

Klawz wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Eldar will retreat to the webways to fight DE, the winner will come to fight the Necrons who will obviously win like they did before, Nids aren't a threat to them as they aren't living (the Necrons) and all 4 C'tan will simultaniously rip the Emperor apart.

1. The Necrons did not win the war.

Actually, they almost won, they just went to sleep to let life rise again after the Enslaver Plauge.

2. The four C'tan are not allies (or is the fact that they want to consume one another just rumour ).

The Deciever would probably manipulate them into doing that if he wants to.

3. If the Emperor was at full strength he would rip THEM apart.

Hahahaha...
NO.
He defeated one C'tan, while it was weak.

4. If the Eldar do retreat to the Dark Eldar realm, they would most likely ally with eachother, not fight.

Maybe. So? They would still die.

1. They beat the Old Ones
2. If faced against an entire race they would probably ally, just like your Eldar and Dark Eldar may
3. But will he ever be at full strength?
4. Meh

Individual Orks right?

Orks as a whole are constantly getting stronger due to the advance of technology. Ork technology spreads through the galaxy remarkably fast.

Similarly, there's regions of Ork space where each individual Ork is bigger than a nob or even a warboss from a lesser region. Because they've been fighting for so long that they've developed into massive monstrosities. Capable of holding back an entire hive fleet and having the time of their lives while doing it.

But if one of these orks is defeated by tyranids, then he will be consumed and his power will now be used by the tyranids in their own creations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
though, I;m starting to think it will be a tie since orks grow and multiply as quickly as tyranids can consume and evolve.

No they won't, because the Tyranids already have Ork dna, and yet they still haven't been competent enough to produce anything out it other than biovores and pyrovores.

Yeah, that's right. The much-vaunted Tyranid evolution is utterly incompetent at utilizing Ork DNA

Necrons.

Everying dies,

Necrons out-sit eternity if needs be,

re-seed 'food races' across the galaxcy, somewhat modified to have less psychic resonance (mk IIs) to avoid the old problems

Wait a few million years to simmer

The Reaper is ready for dinner again.

It my just be me, but I think carnifexes must have come from orks somehow. They're big and brutish, they're orkiest tyranid I've seen . But I'm off topic so never mind.

Khorazin wrote:
Necrons.

Everying dies,

Necrons out-sit eternity if needs be,

re-seed 'food races' across the galaxcy, somewhat modified to have less psychic resonance (mk IIs) to avoid the old problems

Wait a few million years to simmer

The Reaper is ready for dinner again.

The C'tan would just get trapped in a cave and starve again like the Nightbringer almost did.

I don't get how that happened, the C'tan are made of the same material as phase blades and have it and the wraiths' ability to phase out so why don't they just go through the caves? Or just use the fabled necron teleporting technology for things other than you know retreating all the time.

We really should have a "phase in" rule...

Also I think your average star-god who has been around for billions of years is smart enough not to get stuck in a cave, there were some extraodinary circumstances behind The Nightbringers captivity.

That being said it's kinda funny since the Void Dragon is trapped on Mars and The Outsider is trapped (or just chilling?) in a dyson sphere.

Also C'tan>>>>>>>orks *trollface.jpeg*

C'tan < Gork and Mork.

As for how they got stuck in a cave? Feth if I know, but that IS the official fluff.

Personally I think the Necrons are better off without the C'tan as far as "modern" fluff goes (IE set in the 41st millennium).

I agree, they should move into the background and get all scheming and such. I think the Void Dragon is a good example of how the C'tan should be handled, very insidous. Things like creating the pariah gene, implanting the fear of death in sentient beings are also good examples of keeping them in the background but still important plus all of these are very grand in scale and fitting of gods.

At the same time they are made out to be idiots (Voidy getting owned by the Mary Sue of mankind, The Outsider going mad after eating his bros, getting stuck in a cave, cannibalism, etc) in general the poor necrons have taken a beating in fluff and gameplay. I mean target practice...seriously GW. That's a bigger joke than tau!

Just kidding tau players

Melissia wrote:No they won't, because the Tyranids already have Ork dna, and yet they still haven't been competent enough to produce anything out it other than biovores and pyrovores.
Yeah, that's right. The much-vaunted Tyranid evolution is utterly incompetent at utilizing Ork DNA

I wonder if it has something to do with Orks really being big, ugly, trashtalking, plants than anything else?
Plus nids alter their own DNA constantly, not like they steal other organisms DNA right?

I really want to see pictures of Gork and Mork, but at the same time i dont because i feel like it would be nearly impossible to draw them as completely over the top as they need to be

Super human mooses will rule the galaxy !!!!
but other than that the imperium of mankind because well they lasted this long and everyone else will soon be crushed by the might of the emperor

If the emperor will not come the Tyranids, than the Tyranids will come to the emperor!

Orks. I'm not sure why this is even a question; it's been flat-out said, several times, that the Orks outnumber everybody else put together, and the only reason the other races are still around is that the greenskins are having too much fun to kill them all off.

Every race will die but orks, necrons and nids.

Nids will eventualy move to another galaxy and leave orks fighting necrons until another race comes...
Unless nids destroy all the worlds to basicaly nothing then only necrons would be left.

Just my thoughts.

what the hell does every 1 have against the tau (they are the youngest race and are still growing)

i think the imperium they just survive

Even if I'm a Chaos player, my money's on the 'Nids or the Orks. From what I see, both those races aren't really "races". I think they're more suited to be called forces of nature, and everybody knows you can't stop nature.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm surprised that Tyranid are not having a wide lead. The Imperium burned 200 worlds just to give them a fighting chance against this unstoppable force of nature.

-totally agree.

Chaos is immortal anyway.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
though, I;m starting to think it will be a tie since orks grow and multiply as quickly as tyranids can consume and evolve.

Not as such - the Orks will have a very tough time making use of worlds scoured by the Hive Fleets. Remember, these are air-less, water-less balls of dust stripped down to the bedrock. There are no useful minerals left, let alone any of the basic requirments of life. Sure, the Orks are hardy and may well be able to brute-force survive their way through somehow... but just what are they going to do with that planet? There's nothing there. At all. You wouldn't even get Feral Orks - just a bunch of very depressed greenskins sulking about how bored they are throwing dust at one-another and having to breathe through "da breethy-fings" their hard-pressed meks managed to scrape together.

All art of worlds eaten by tyranids show that they do not eat the metal contents of the world. Buildings are often still partially standing.

Melissia wrote:All art of worlds eaten by tyranids show that they do not eat the metal contents of the world. Buildings are often still partially standing.

True, but the Magos Biologis analysis of the Tyranid feeding process (available online - I'll try and dig it out tomorrow) shows that the Tyranids do in fact strip a lot of metal, sediment etc from a world too. It is noted that a world stripped by the Tyranids is noticably smaller than it was before their arrival. The Tyranids take enormous amounts of material with them, all of which is useful. It's not just about 'life', though that is obviously their primary target. They certainly take the oceans and air with them as well.

The art is mostly thematic - a flat, dusty landscape with nothing on it isn't much to look at.

asimo77 wrote:I don't get how that happened, the C'tan are made of the same material as phase blades and have it and the wraiths' ability to phase out so why don't they just go through the caves? Or just use the fabled necron teleporting technology for things other than you know retreating all the time.

We really should have a "phase in" rule...

Also I think your average star-god who has been around for billions of years is smart enough not to get stuck in a cave, there were some extraodinary circumstances behind The Nightbringers captivity.

That being said it's kinda funny since the Void Dragon is trapped on Mars and The Outsider is trapped (or just chilling?) in a dyson sphere.

Also C'tan>>>>>>>orks *trollface.jpeg*

What are these bolded things?

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:But that same thinking is what makes the Orks such a threat! They will just keep on fighting because its what they love to do.

Im not really familiar with Imperium lore but if they can nuke planets like that then why the hell havnt they done it already?

They do... on a regular basis! Exterminatus and Virus bombing happens all the time... the sheer number of planets in the Imperium makes it a 0.000000000000000000001% of planets at war actually ends up getting it! You would though wouldn't you? If you had a Death Star you'd be popping every other planet on your way from Alderaan to Yavin!

My votes for the Nids fluff wise... one the Gret Devourer samples marine gene seed in large quantities it'll be game over for everybody else!

If you were to run it Codex wise then Marines are a massive WIN! They're the ultimate all rounders and have few if any real weaknesses!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emeth wrote:If every thing went balls out Mankind would eventualy die off, with it chaos would soon die off with out new people to corrupt and turn. eldar and tau wouldent make it, the orks and nids would have a massive war but I think the nids would evetually win because the orks would let them eat biomass to get stronger becaue it would be "Fun"...leaving the necrons and nids, since nither of them get any thing from the outher they wouldent fight so the nids leave to find more stuff to eat leaving the necrons....necrons win, mind you it is a compleatly void of life barren galaxy but they still win.

This actually makes the most sense of any post I've read! Excellent reasoning!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shenra wrote:The reason you don't include daemons is because they would obviously be the last ones standing...first--they don't truly die, just return to the warp...second, you can't kill chaos itself...third, everytime other races fight it just fuels the daemons more...so the last one standing would have to face daemons and that would be over quick!

I'm afraid this is flawed... the GW fluff in the Horus Heresy series indicates that the Chaos Gods only exist bacause the hiuman race fuels them, once humanity dies the chaos gods cease to exist. At least thats my understanding of it. (mostly from the cabal spiel in Legion)

The truth is, necrons are the doom of the entire universe.
you can't kill them.

the necrons sole purpose is to eliminate all life that exists, thereby snuffing out the warp. (and in the process all demons and chaos gods)

even though the orks reproduce quickly and are ard' as nails, the necrons are deathless.

the eldar are already almost extinct so they're out.

the tau are nothing to the necrons, merely another fledgling race that must be mulched.

tyranids (i believe) are merely a pawn of the necrons, and will eventually be slaughtered like cattle.

humans are the largest threat to the necrons, but even then, can the imperium continue to stand for countless more eons, when the fabric of space and time itself bends to the whims of the c'tan and their servants? besides, from what i have read, the imperium is circling the drain already.

Im going for Necrons aswell, I mean if the Tyranids do just go away to another galaxy to absorb the bio-mass there, using logic they WILL eventully run out and die, or meet somthing stronger.


Also, Im sure the Necrons and C'tan get points into there 'Pee'd off space gods, lets genocide everything that breathes' bucket by wiping out the Tyranids, and since the bugs actively avoid Necron worlds, how much easier is it for the Necron fleets to sweep down and just exterminate the whole thing at once.

Orks come second, cause if anyone can give anything a good stompin' its dem Orkz

My argument against necrons is that, being a few billion years old, they might be over the hill at this point.

They aren't as powerful as they were before they went into hibernation.

Yeah, the necrons aren't what they used to be. They're down to four C'tan. The leaders are gone.

Tomb worlds are being used for training exercise by the Imperial Guard.

Even if NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE can permanently dissolve/kill/incapacitate them (lame) and the repairing centers are never found or break down or run out of space or materials or ANYTHING BAD AT ALL EVER (super lame) they're still a limited force. The imperial guard can rebuild as quickly as the necrons.

Being the last man standing once is impressive. Doing it twice in a row is unlikely. Doing it forever is impossible.

IMHO

I feel like people don't give enough credit to the necrons, they held their own against and in some cases whupped the eldar and Old Ones, both of whom were in their prime. Then they remianed undetected by the eldar for millions of years. This is all while the eldar were at their peak (and probably stronger than the IoM ever was).

The necrons are tuff stuff, if the eldar couldn't find them all what makes you think orks or tyranids (who have no reason to) would find them and wipe em out?

just because the necrons are old dosen't mean they are past their prime. they are machines. they are just as effective as the day the deciever stole their flesh.

four C'tan isn't really a problem when you look at the necrons as a whole.

Foxy_Grandpa wrote:just because the necrons are old dosen't mean they are past their prime. they are machines. they are just as effective as the day the deciever stole their flesh.

Machines degrade over time.

Our machines degrade (when kept in bad conditions). Necrons could be un affected by aging. Their technology is much more advanced than even the Iom (and much better than ours).

Depending on how it is kept even our technology could last a longt time.

And yet, it still degrades. Indeed, Necrons would degrade faster because they keep taking damage.

And in fact they DO degrade, as per canon, every time they're "killed".

asimo77 wrote:
The necrons are tuff stuff, if the eldar couldn't find them all what makes you think orks or tyranids (who have no reason to) would find them and wipe em out?

It is really hard for me to envision a future where half of the races are eliminated, let alone all but one. The Dark Eldar can basically live forever in the webway as long as there are still souls for them to steal from people. The Eldar don't even need to come out of the webway! The Tau are really the only one who wouldn't be freakishly difficult to eliminate. Yeah, it's going to be impossible to remove necrons from the universe. But when you're dealing with the trillion solar system Imperium and a countless horde that eats all others and the sleeping unbeatable army and a race that outnumbers all the other races combined you have to pick the least impossible of the impossible endings.

And Necrons are the second least impossible of the impossible end game winners.

I basically agree with the current proportions of this poll if you consider it as a combination of likelihood to win and likelihood to survive and also ability to destroy others.

Foxy_Grandpa wrote:four C'tan isn't really a problem when you look at the necrons as a whole.

Unless if you remember that their claim for greatness happened because of the C'tan. When there were hundreds of them.

And yet, it still degrades. Indeed, Necrons would degrade faster because they keep taking damage.

And in fact they DO degrade, as per canon, every time they're "killed".

When they die yes, but I haven't seen anything saying they are damaged by just standing around (may be wrong).

As I have said before the C'tan could justmake some new soldiers if anyone manages to destroy every necron. It wouldn't be hard to persuade some humans they can be immortal.

Except it wasn't actually the C'tan that created living metal... it was the Necrontyr, who created it in order to "capture" the C'tan in a physical form.

Melissia wrote:Except it wasn't actually the C'tan that created living metal... it was the Necrontyr, who created it in order to "capture" the C'tan in a physical form.

God the necrons need a new codex. I actually want to hear some updated stuff. I know basically nothing about necrons

Hundreds of C'tan?Who killed so many? And how?

What are the four c'tan? The deciever..Nightbringer...what else?

NVM. lexi' helped me

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Except it wasn't actually the C'tan that created living metal... it was the Necrontyr, who created it in order to "capture" the C'tan in a physical form.

God the necrons need a new codex. I actually want to hear some updated stuff. I know basically nothing about necrons

Hundreds of C'tan?Who killed so many? And how?

What are the four c'tan? The deciever..Nightbringer...what else?

NVM. lexi' helped me

The C'tan were owned by Eldar, their Gods, Krorks (Ye old version of yer Orks) and who would have thunk eachother!
Here are the four C'tan from weakest to strongest:
Deciever
Nightbringer
The Void Dragon (Kept on mars, I remember reading somewhere he gave the IoM their technology )
The Outsider (rumoured to be Tyranid Hive Mind)

*Reads last sentence*

D'oh!!! :(



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phantommaster wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Eldar will retreat to the webways to fight DE, the winner will come to fight the Necrons who will obviously win like they did before, Nids aren't a threat to them as they aren't living (the Necrons) and all 4 C'tan will simultaniously rip the Emperor apart.

1. The Necrons did not win the war.

Actually, they almost won, they just went to sleep to let life rise again after the Enslaver Plauge.

2. The four C'tan are not allies (or is the fact that they want to consume one another just rumour ).

The Deciever would probably manipulate them into doing that if he wants to.

3. If the Emperor was at full strength he would rip THEM apart.

Hahahaha...
NO.
He defeated one C'tan, while it was weak.

4. If the Eldar do retreat to the Dark Eldar realm, they would most likely ally with eachother, not fight.

Maybe. So? They would still die.

1. They beat the Old Ones
2. If faced against an entire race they would probably ally, just like your Eldar and Dark Eldar may
3. But will he ever be at full strength?
4. Meh

1. The Necrons did not almost WIN, they almost LOST. If it wasn't for the enslavers, the Old Ones would have won.
2. Yes, I do actually believe that they would ally.
3. The Emperor is the greatest psyker in the entire universe. He would mop the floor with the C'tan. They would scream so hard as the Emperor Tea Bags them. He will be at full strength should the Illuminati pull their plan off, or the Star Child ting happens.
4. So will the Necrons.

I do not believe Eldar would win (IoM FTW!!!) but like all races, they are in with a chance and are just as deadly as any other race. But, no matter what happens, the last race standing will not be a race. But a single man.

Guardsman Marbo!

The C'tan are weak to psykers and psychic attacks, as that can actually damage them. It's why they were trying to complete the pylon system, the beginning of which caused the opening of the eye of terror. Said system was designed to shut off the warp so that nobody would have access to this weakness.

Golden Sabres wrote:
The Void Dragon (Kept on mars, I remember reading somewhere he gave the IoM their technology )

almost certainly the Void Dragon is revealed, called "The Dragon of Mars". The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago (what this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either) sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3. He traveled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth, purposefully not destroying it. The creature is described as having "drunk the heart of stars" and "worshiped as a god", which heavily implies it to be a C'Tan. It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there. Once the Warp storms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum. This was in fact the Emperor's plan all along: to create a technologically advanced society that would be able to provide the industrial machinery for his Great Crusade.

scubasteve04 wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:
The Void Dragon (Kept on mars, I remember reading somewhere he gave the IoM their technology )

almost certainly the Void Dragon is revealed, called "The Dragon of Mars". The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago (what this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either) sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3. He traveled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth, purposefully not destroying it. The creature is described as having "drunk the heart of stars" and "worshiped as a god", which heavily implies it to be a C'Tan. It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there. Once the Warp storms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum. This was in fact the Emperor's plan all along: to create a technologically advanced society that would be able to provide the industrial machinery for his Great Crusade.

It should be noted that this is, and it says this directly in that 'book', highly abstract and surreal and should not be taken literally.

You mjean just like... every ohter bit of C'tan fluff, except for that time the ultrasmurfs idiotically let the starving Nightbringer go instead of bury him in the cave and let him die of starvation?

Melissia wrote:The C'tan are weak to psykers and psychic attacks, as that can actually damage them. It's why they were trying to complete the pylon system, the beginning of which caused the opening of the eye of terror. Said system was designed to shut off the warp so that nobody would have access to this weakness.

The eye of terror was opened by Slaanesh's birth, the pylons being Cadia appears to be just coincidence.

"1. The Necrons did not almost WIN, they almost LOST. If it wasn't for the enslavers, the Old Ones would have won."

The codex actually contradicts itself here. One passage has them winning right before the enlsaver plague and they go to sleep to allow the races to repopulate. Then in another passage it suggests the eldar were winning but the enslaver plague saved the necrons.

asimo77 wrote:The eye of terror was opened by Slaanesh's birth, the pylons being Cadia appears to be just coincidence.

I never said it wasn't, only that the ones on Cadia appear to be the first.

Oh ok I misunderstood your statement.

Orks, though they won't ever realize it has happened.

Im going to go for Chaos. At some point all the Chaos Primarchs get off their asses and get down to business. Failaddon gets kicked to the kerb and the imperium soon falls.

for the other races -
Imperium: Eventually falls due to all the external and internal factors. This may be delayed long enough for them to turn into a psychic species in which case they kick everyones ass.
Tau: too small. One of the other factions will eat them (maybe literally)
Eldar: Boned. even their farseers know they are a doomed race.
Dark Eldar: Boned with spikes.
Orks: Never going anywhere. but just hanging around like mold.
Tyranids: The number of hive fleets run out, the existing ones are wiped out and only some splinter fleets are left.
Necrons: Most of them remain in sleep eternally or have been destroyed. Those who are active are whittled down by the other races. Nightbringer chokes on a red dwarf.

Lets face it, the imperium can invoke exterminatus and destroy tomb worlds,has fended off 3 large hive fleets, has beten the orks and CSM countles times and the eldar/dark eldar are going extinct so no problems there.

I voted for imperium for one reason. You may kill the imperium but humanity is too much in number to just kill in one strike. You need to destroy every single planet which is over 6 billion. Don't believe? Well Lets see how anyone can destroy humanity at all? No, no race can actually kill all of humanity. They tried they failed, humanity is too large in numbers to kill.

Its a tough choice between Orks and nids for me, I guess whichever one has the most numbers(which is supposedly Orks but I don't think there's any way of knowing that)

Lets see how anyone can destroy humanity at all? No, no race can actually kill all of humanity. They tried they failed, humanity is too large in numbers to kill.

But the same could be said about most races. The Orks,Nids and possibly even the Necrons outnumber humans.

Mike Noble wrote:Its a tough choice between Orks and nids for me, I guess whichever one has the most numbers(which is supposedly Orks but I don't think there's any way of knowing that)

Lets see how anyone can destroy humanity at all? No, no race can actually kill all of humanity. They tried they failed, humanity is too large in numbers to kill.

But the same could be said about most races. The Orks,Nids and possibly even the Necrons outnumber humans.

What? No. Only orcs and nids. Necrons when they lose one necron they can't make more

Asherian Command wrote:I voted for imperium for one reason. You may kill the imperium but humanity is too much in number to just kill in one strike. You need to destroy every single planet which is over 6 billion. Don't believe? Well Lets see how anyone can destroy humanity at all? No, no race can actually kill all of humanity. They tried they failed, humanity is too large in numbers to kill.

Unless your fighting tyranids. Most collateral damage seems to happen to the Imperium when a major hive fleet is defeated. With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off. Then once they eat up enough biomass they become a whole new problem to deal with. Plus every world the Imperium loses is another source of manpower and resources it cant get back. Whereas for Tyranids as long as sources for biomass exist. They can rebuild. I do agree its a tough battle. But ultimately when it comes to attrition wars Tyranids can outdo anyone.

Lexx wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I voted for imperium for one reason. You may kill the imperium but humanity is too much in number to just kill in one strike. You need to destroy every single planet which is over 6 billion. Don't believe? Well Lets see how anyone can destroy humanity at all? No, no race can actually kill all of humanity. They tried they failed, humanity is too large in numbers to kill.

Unless your fighting tyranids. Most collateral damage seems to happen to the Imperium when a major hive fleet is defeated. With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off. Then once they eat up enough biomass they become a whole new problem to deal with. Plus every world the Imperium loses is another source of manpower and resources it cant get back. Whereas for Tyranids as long as sources for biomass exist. They can rebuild. I do agree its a tough battle. But ultimately when it comes to attrition wars Tyranids can outdo anyone.

Except for chuck norris and the Necrons

I don't think necrons do attrition very either.

well necrons are slowly reawakening but the thing is some of them have permanently turned off.

Lexx wrote: Most collateral damage seems to happen to the Imperium when a major hive fleet is defeated.

The Imperium takes losses in war, yes.

Lexx wrote:With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off.

If they spread out that much they'd be pretty easy to beat.

Lexx wrote:Then once they eat up enough biomass they become a whole new problem to deal with.

All those ork worlds and Eldar craftworlds they bumped into sure were easy pickings...

Lexx wrote:Plus every world the Imperium loses is another source of manpower and resources it cant get back. Whereas for Tyranids as long as sources for biomass exist.

The Imperium can find and conquer new worlds. Any biomass the tyranids can use the Imperium can use just as well.

Lexx wrote:They can rebuild. I do agree its a tough battle. But ultimately when it comes to attrition wars Tyranids can outdo anyone.

I don't agree. If a tyranid fleet is defeated than it is gone. Period. They put everything out on the line in battle.

The tyranids live and die by the fortunes of war.

Most times though, one ship escapes and goes into stasis. If another hive fleet comes along, they will reabsorb the half dead ship and gain the evolutionary counter measures it gained while fighting the enemy, this why hive fleets splinter.

Mr Nobody wrote:Most times though, one ship escapes and goes into stasis. If another hive fleet comes along, they will reabsorb the half dead ship and gain the evolutionary counter measures it gained while fighting the enemy, this why hive fleets splinter.

I'll agree with that. But it doesn't mean they're bound to win. And plenty of enemies don't have anything genetically useful for the tyranids. Tau and humans aren't gonna improve the nids. They already have space marine, ork and eldar DNA and they haven't found an I win button.

Not to mention the most important part of being the winner on a galactic scale, your spaceships, are all non biological so the nids can't reverse engineer anything from their foes on the most important front.

I was going to comment that it takes a VERY LONG TIME for the imperium to build new ships of any significant size. That got me to wandering. Yes we know the nids can replenish ground losses via norm queens quickly and effectively. How long does it take them to produce new ships? How do they even do it?!

i say orks win...you kill one, it just turns into a bunch of ork mushrooms....

Mr Nobody wrote:Most times though, one ship escapes and goes into stasis. If another hive fleet comes along, they will reabsorb the half dead ship and gain the evolutionary counter measures it gained while fighting the enemy, this why hive fleets splinter.

Tyranid ships cannot escape when their narvhal (spelling right ) is destroyed (please prove me wrong).
I'm pretty sure the IoM has learnt this.
The thing is, people always say how Tyranids adapt, and yet the IoM can do the same thing.

Space mairnes can't adapt unless they break the laws of the codex astartes. Thus adapting is heresy.


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Also, tyranids don't necessarily need new DNA to adapt, they also modify their creations to better fight the enemy, if one does escape, (which we agree on might not happen), then those adaptations and tactics can be shared with other fleets, better preparing them for future battles.

This is best seen in the tyranid codex when they face the tau, forgot the name of the hive fleet now.

I think it depends on how the Imperium and the Nids finally decide to end their fight.

Should the IoM fight as it has been, spread of over countless planets, they will eventually be consumed and stripped off so many planets that the Tyranids will have the Biomass necessary to overwhelm Terra.

Should the IoM revert to a dedicated scorched earth tactic, they could perhaps set huge bastions of defense on a select and small number of planets, allowing the nids to strip what isnt protected.

This will bring to bear a final conflict that the humans may be able to survive, assuming they inflict so much damage on the nid fleets that they are unable to sustain the cycle of creation necessary to continue it's war. The few human planets will likely be the last source of biomass left, so the nids will have no choice but to smash their heads against it.

Alternatively, the Necrons stay dormant untill the nids and man duke it out, at which point they take it to the winner.

If man wins, Necrons destroy man.

If nids win, Necrons sleep until the Nids consume everything and starve themselves, then awake to a dead universe where's theres nothing for them to do other than play dance dance revolution with those cheating C'tan.

with their crappy initiative I don't think necrons would make good dancers

Thunderfrog wrote:

If nids win, Necrons sleep until the Nids consume everything and starve themselves, then awake to a dead universe where's theres nothing for them to do other than play dance dance revolution with those cheating C'tan.

I disagree. The Necrons have no reason to let the nids eat their food. I foresee lots of fighting between those two.

Mr Nobody wrote:

Also, tyranids don't necessarily need new DNA to adapt, they also modify their creations to better fight the enemy, if one does escape, (which we agree on might not happen), then those adaptations and tactics can be shared with other fleets, better preparing them for future battles.

And they won't necessarily adapt correctly, or enough. I hope no one thinks the tyranids operate like Doomsday. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_%28comics%29
That would be lame.

I don't even think Tyranids are all that competent in actually using the DNA they HAVE gotten.

Just looking at their complete and utter incompetence in absorbing Ork DNA proves this to me.

The problem with tyranid's adaptation is that it is fairly reactive, thus near sighted. They will adapt their creatures to only the problems at the moment of experience, usually only using small modifications to anatomy or behavior.

Occasionally a radically different species will be created, but only after repeated confrontation with a species.

Mr Nobody wrote:Space mairnes can't adapt unless they break the laws of the codex astartes. Thus adapting is heresy.

Actually, I'm pretty sure (I remember reading this stuff, just can't remember where...) that in certain battles, space marine commanders who used different tactics which worked can add their own little piece onto the codex. Ah yep, here we go -

The wisdom of thousands of Imperial warriors have contributed to the Codex, and details on everything from unit markings to launching a full-scale planetary assault are contained within its pages.

The adaption process that tyrands use can actualy be used as a very useful weapon against them. As they adapt on instinct rather than a long term plan its possible to lead a nid fleet down a evolutionary path that makes them weaker. By fighting them with decoy troops using specific weapon and tactics you can force them to evolve a trait which makes them weaker against your real troops.

Scrabb wrote:

Lexx wrote:With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off.

If they spread out that much they'd be pretty easy to beat.

That's the thing though - Splinter Fleets aren't easy to beat. A handful of Hive Ships can feed on a few isolated, undefended worlds and in the space of a few years multiply in number into a much more significant threat. The Tyranids are at least as proficient as the Orks in this "massive infestation from a handful of Spores" routine, and are arguably far more dangerous because the Hive Fleets are active, intellifent predators rather than unruly mobs that require some greater stimulus to up and move world.

4M2A wrote:The adaption process that tyrands use can actualy be used as a very useful weapon against them. As they adapt on instinct rather than a long term plan its possible to lead a nid fleet down a evolutionary path that makes them weaker. By fighting them with decoy troops using specific weapon and tactics you can force them to evolve a trait which makes them weaker against your real troops.

Think that one through logistically. The expenditure of "fake" troops to cause a planet-wide Tyranid invasion to skew the construction of its forces that significantly is monstrous, so much so that you're left asking "what's the point?".

Remember that the Hive Ships spawn wave after wave of creatures better and better suited to a task/opposition. If the creatures on the planet below are suddenly being killed off whole-sale because they've somehow been led into an adaptation trap, the Hive Ships simply spawn something more generic and start adapting to the new threat. It's artificial, imposed evolution, not natural selection.

Furthermore, just what sort of adaptation-trap would you advocate? How would you implement it?

Xyptc wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Lexx wrote:With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off.

If they spread out that much they'd be pretty easy to beat.

That's the thing though - Splinter Fleets aren't easy to beat. A handful of Hive Ships can feed on a few isolated, undefended worlds and in the space of a few years multiply in number into a much more significant threat. The Tyranids are at least as proficient as the Orks in this "massive infestation from a handful of Spores" routine, and are arguably far more dangerous because the Hive Fleets are active, intellifent predators rather than unruly mobs that require some greater stimulus to up and move world.

Well, how many times can you splinter the fleet before it's no longer a fleet? And where are these undefended worlds in the path of the fleet? the Imperium has time to prepare it's defenses to the extent that they destroy a few hundred worlds themselves to take advantage of the tyranid's instinctive foraging behavior. A handful of ships won't break any planetary defenses anywhere. I mean, if the tyranids spread out the Imperial fleet just rolls over them piece by piece. [if i'm not mistaken the Imperium has faster warp travel]


A hive fleet is terrifying. A splinter fleet is formidable. Three or four ships is a joke.


This is all, of course, IMHO.

Another tyranid option, instead of splintering, is to hide and wait for a bigger fleet or another splinter to increase their numbers. I think this happened with jormungandr.


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3 or 4 ships might be a joke, but it's not something you want to underestimate.

Xyptc wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Lexx wrote:With the splinter fleets scattering and infesting over too wide an area for Imperial forces to track and kill all of them off.

If they spread out that much they'd be pretty easy to beat.

That's the thing though - Splinter Fleets aren't easy to beat. A handful of Hive Ships can feed on a few isolated, undefended worlds and in the space of a few years multiply in number into a much more significant threat. The Tyranids are at least as proficient as the Orks in this "massive infestation from a handful of Spores" routine, and are arguably far more dangerous because the Hive Fleets are active, intellifent predators rather than unruly mobs that require some greater stimulus to up and move world.

The Imperium has already Identified the Tyranid Narvhal and that specific ship would be a high priority target. The quick destruction of this one ship cuts off any chance of the fleet escaping, which leaves the Tyranids enemy to destroy the rest of the fleet.

The real problem here is actually detecting tyranids ships... you would need massive spotlights on your ship to spot a dormant tyranid vessel...

Oh wait there we go, the IoM just puts spotlights on their ships.
Now we can see Tyranid ships AND increases buisness which is good for the economy, not to mention potential jobs as spotters...
Thank you Tyranids.

Scrabb wrote:

A hive fleet is terrifying. A splinter fleet is formidable. Three or four ships is a joke.


This is all, of course, IMHO.

The Tyranids aren't just acting on instinct though. There is clearly intelligence and a galaxy-wide strategy in the works. A Splinter Fleet of only a few ships is unlikely to pick a fight with a well-defended world, but instead harvest smaller, undefended targets for years until it has multiplied in number sufficiently to go after bigger prey. They can (and do, it's documented in the latest Codex) do this with relative ease - Tyranid ships are hard to find, thanks to the Shadow in the Warp.

Xyptc wrote:

The Tyranids aren't just acting on instinct though. There is clearly intelligence and a galaxy-wide strategy in the works. A Splinter Fleet of only a few ships is unlikely to pick a fight with a well-defended world, but instead harvest smaller, undefended targets for years until it has multiplied in number sufficiently to go after bigger prey. They can (and do, it's documented in the latest Codex) do this with relative ease - Tyranid ships are hard to find, thanks to the Shadow in the Warp.

Touche.


I still like to think the Imperium has at some layer of it's massive empire a ring of uniformly competently defended worlds to the effect that it wll be able to counter that tactic.

Think that one through logistically. The expenditure of "fake" troops to cause a planet-wide Tyranid invasion to skew the construction of its forces that significantly is monstrous, so much so that you're left asking "what's the point?".

It works if you force them to adaptt very specifically. Lead them to a jungle planet where being fast and agile is neccessary to win. The nids will start to adapt to become lighter and their muscles will adapt so they are better in short bursts than in long periods. Push this to the extreme by using traps and jungle fughters, until they no longer adapt. Now lead them until a desert planet and hit them with an armoured IG platton. Being quick and lightly armoured is no help against artilery strikes. The might be quick running in bursts but running across that planet is going to take a lot of stamina, they don't have.

This technique has been proven to work by the Tau. While it helped them they lack the resources to win. The imperium on the other hand has millions of types of environment and styles of troops to put them against.

Melissia wrote:I don't even think Tyranids are all that competent in actually using the DNA they HAVE gotten.

Just looking at their complete and utter incompetence in absorbing Ork DNA proves this to me.

Not that I really disagree, but you could consider them from another angle.

They are a beefy unit that (re)produces spores that can help take over the a world!
Also, the spores are inclined to suicidal charging attacks.
Plus they blow things up--including themselves.

4M2A wrote:

It works if you force them to adaptt very specifically. Lead them to a jungle planet where being fast and agile is neccessary to win. The nids will start to adapt to become lighter and their muscles will adapt so they are better in short bursts than in long periods. Push this to the extreme by using traps and jungle fughters, until they no longer adapt. Now lead them until a desert planet and hit them with an armoured IG platton. Being quick and lightly armoured is no help against artilery strikes. The might be quick running in bursts but running across that planet is going to take a lot of stamina, they don't have.

This technique has been proven to work by the Tau. While it helped them they lack the resources to win. The imperium on the other hand has millions of types of environment and styles of troops to put them against.

The nids already have millions of DNA templates to choose from and eat their field troops between planets. They make whichever warrior strain that best fits the next planet. So, planet to planet changes are not workable as a weakening strategy (as always IMHO).

No this has been done by the Tau (they forced them to use weaker armoured nids then killed them with ranged fire) and it worked very well. Nids don't adapt by thinking they adapt by changing to suit the imediate problem.

4M2A wrote:No this has been done by the Tau (they forced them to use weaker armoured nids then killed them with ranged fire) and it worked very well. Nids don't adapt by thinking they adapt by changing to suit the imediate problem.

You're thinking of the Hive Fleet Gorgon fluff. The Tyranids adapted their armour to withstand Tau Pulse weapons, and the Tau retro-fitted their weapons to fire conventional ballistics. The Tyranids adapted to that in short order. The Tau strategy was a short-term success, but let's face it there's only so many different kinds of weapons you can hammer the Tyranids with before they've seen everything you've got and can quickly deploy an appropriate counter. I think you're confusing battlefield adaptation with the way the Hive Fleet selects its forces for a task.

This is why the "lure them to a jungle world, then to a desert world for maximum contrast" strategy fails. The Tyranids invade and consume the jungle world (so they are already one up on biomass, thanks already), before being kited to a nearby desert world (somehow - let's say you manage to pull off Cryptman's Genestealer Cult trick again). The Tyranid Fleet deploys vanguard organisms as usual. Hundreds of Lictors report back to the Hive - this world is a mass of sand and not a tree in sight. Why would the Hive send down jungle-specialists for that target rather than more appropriate creatures? You seem to be forgetting that almost every Tyranid deployed to a prey world is specially grown for the task, and they grow what they need.

The ability to produce exactly the right forces for a given theatre of war is a direct example of why the Tyranids are so fearsome an enemy - they can hit you with whatever is going to work best, not just what they have. The hyper-evolved forces that ravaged the jungle world are not re-grown to be used on the desert world, but rather the templates for those jungle-fighters are stored away and returned to use the next time the Tyranids find a jungle world. The desert world gets Tyranids suited to a desert world. This can be seen quite clearly in the way the Tyranids defeated the Orks on Ghorala - they identify what they face, and deploy units appropriately. It's far more than just instinctual.

The same point still works for tactics, by adapting to one style they become worse at another. True the Tau don't have enough styles to swich between but the imperium have many kinds of weapons and my styles of battle. The nids power is in adapting. If you never let them make full use of their new traits they lose a lot of power.

In the Tau example they switched between 2 or 3 styles multiple times and adapted as quick as the nids did. They never had the time to perfect the style becasue they tua kep switching as soon as they got used to the situation. It only failed because they lacked the supplies and numbers to keep it going. Yes the nids would learn to become faster at switching theit traits but they would still be a period of time (while the hive mind makes the changes) when the nids adaptions don't help them against you.

My comment about drawing them from planet to planet was very a simplified example.

Obviously this would be a nightmare to organise to but when your faced with the tyranids who are about to eat your galaxy you get desperate.

This style works so much better than a war of attrition as thats exactly what they want. They have a long time to perfect their new nids and you keep taing the food to them, meaning you increase their numbers everytime you fly in new troops.

How about we ask this question. Based on the stat lines in the given codex for each above army, who would be the last one standing?

Sorry im just going to throw a spanner in the works...
what if tzeentch wants the csm's to win? there is going to be no stopping them

By its very nature chaos can't win, it's by far the most self-destructive of all the factions. The gods' victory means the death of its worshippers and source of power. Chaos is paradoxical like that I guess.

Honestly I'd rank chaos at the very bottom because of this.

Tyranic Marta wrote:Sorry im just going to throw a spanner in the works...
what if tzeentch wants the csm's to win? there is going to be no stopping them

Tzeentch is a powerful, driving force behind events but he's not the be-all and end-all of the fate of the universe.It doesn't matter how many strings he pulls if the galaxy is going to be swept away in a truly unstoppable horde of trillions of Hive Ships, or if the C'tan manage to complete their Great Work.

That is a very good point, i would however like to point out that by this very logic they could never lose either as the chaos legions are the chaos gods best source of "income" so to speak


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And yes the c'tan are a mighty big problem

Well if the legions are wiped out then they have no "income". Of course killing every CSM is a wee bit difficult. Then you have to stop all the cultists, renegades, heretics...

I still would think if everyone converted to chaos their self destructive nature would end up killing themselves off. Except Malal who only becomes stronger!!!

GO GO Malal!! Super-fighting-chaos-god!!

Keep in mind that Tzeentch also never lets his plans reach an end, hes the schemer god letting a plan reach a goal isn't what hes after, he just likes to plot and scheme. So even IF he wanted CSM to win the whole thing he would change plans at the last minute anyway.

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:Keep in mind that Tzeentch also never lets his plans reach an end, hes the schemer god letting a plan reach a goal isn't what hes after, he just likes to plot and scheme. So even IF he wanted CSM to win the whole thing he would change plans at the last minute anyway.

Schemer, you know you are a schemer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said schemer, you're nothing but a schemer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said "Far out, - What a day, a year, a laugh it is!"
You know, - Well you know you had it comin' to you,
Now there's not a lot I can do.

Oh please, the chaos space marines are unimportant in the long scheme of things to the powers of Chaos. They do not think of things in terms of years but in terms of eons.

I am going with the Imperium of Man because of the Same reason as Ailaros. They can reproduce. The Eldar are toast, but the Dark Eldar will last longer but they too will eventually die. Orks will either kill themselves or the Tyranids will beat them. The Necrons will put up a good fight but they would eventually go back into stasis. Tau are also toast, the Imperium will take them out. I have an interesting theory for Chaos, they will defeat one of the races and the Chaos gods will fight over who will rule that races worlds, thus they would kill themselves in a four-way civil war. Nids are a seriuos problem though, but i think that the Imperium will eventually destroy the hive fleets. It will come at a serious cost though. Or their could be a HUGE battle between all the Imperium (all the SM chapters, all the IG, all the Grey Knights,and Sisters of Battle) and All of the Tyranids. That would be epic! But i think the Imperium would win.

Uh, Orks don't just kill themselves. The reason Orks fight amongst themselves is because fighting makes them stronger and death is their method of reproduction (via releasing spores, which they do all throughout their life but they release a huge burst of spores upon death.

IF all of the Orks in the galaxy killed themselves at once somehow, a few years later ther'd be a dozen or so times as many Orks as there was previously.

Tyranids would not confront the entirety of the imperium at once, unless it was terra. The imperium is also too large and bloated with beurocracy to bring all their powers to one area ahead of the tyranids as well.

Again with the "Imperium wins because it can reproduce". The Tyranids are simply better at this than the Imperium, because they extract the entire potential of a world all at once and take it with them, rather than slowly draining it over generations as the Imperium does.

Melissia wrote:Oh please, the chaos space marines are unimportant in the long scheme of things to the powers of Chaos. They do not think of things in terms of years but in terms of eons.

The Chaos powers don't think period. They're like 2 year olds: they only want. Tzeentch thinks he thinks but all he does is out think himself

Question

Mr Nobody wrote:Tyranids would not confront the entirety of the imperium at once, unless it was terra. The imperium is also too large and bloated with beurocracy to bring all their powers to one area ahead of the tyranids as well.

It is Terra. And I find it interesting that you feel a faction will lose because it is too gargantuan to bring all of it's forces to bear.


The Tyranids are literally headed to Terra.


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Xyptc wrote:Again with the "Imperium wins because it can reproduce". The Tyranids are simply better at this than the Imperium, because they extract the entire potential of a world all at once and take it with them, rather than slowly draining it over generations as the Imperium does.

But only when they win, IF they win. The Imperium is doing it constantly on a trillion worlds.

I see CSM being the last - particularly "tzeentch" favoured - as the Chaos God will just change the outcome as it sees fit.

THANK YOU
some sense at last,
this is what ive bin sayiun but these guys wont listen

I'd have to vote Orks, personally, just because of a few things:

1: they're nigh unkillable. At this point the Imperium has to totally eradicate a system to destroy all the orks, as their reproduction rate works as it does.

2: they're incredibly numerous. It's already been stated that all the orks combined would overwhelm the galaxy, and ork population increases exponentially with casualties (because spores are released as they die) so more dead orks equals more live orks, and eventually you just run out of the dakka to fight them.

3: They are instinctively born with the ability to make and use some form of technology. They don't need to rely on learning and any kind of tradition to survive, just instinct.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.

Nids are also nign unkillable, very numerous, and (save synapse) run on instict. They even have rules for insticts. And the Imperium actually fears them.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Nids are also nign unkillable

No they aren't.

Kill a gaunt and it stays dead.

Kill an Ork and a dozen more pop up a year later.

Scrabb wrote:It is Terra. And I find it interesting that you feel a faction will lose because it is too gargantuan to bring all of it's forces to bear.

I find it interesting you don't realize how bureaucracy slows everything down. It takes decades, even centuries, for the Imperium to mount a huge attack (ie a crusade). A minor retaliatory strike wouldn't do much to a hive fleet.

Scrabb wrote:The Tyranids are literally headed to Terra.

Only two minor hive fleets. It's not like Terra would be hurting for lack of defenses.

It can only be Orks.

The Ork race is the ultimate force in survival, they are excellent improvisers and even on a world which would not normally provide them with food they simply bring their squig spores which will provide a long lasting food supply. However there biggest advantage is the way they reproduce, every single Ork carries basically trillions of spores which constantly shed from his body as he walks, eats, fights whatever and when he dies a huge amount of them burst out and cover the land. A battleground with a hundred dead Orks could potentially birth thousands if not millions of Orks given the right conditions.

why would gw make a race that would be impossible to defeat, it defeats the purpose of 40K, if one race won thn there would be no more 40K and no more gw income from that area

really orcs?!???!?!?

No. We did not vote for Orcs.

We voted for Orks. Who are much cooler.

... grrrrrr
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I Think that if they just said "chaos" instead of "chaos space marines" they'd have gotten more votes for that. Chaos Space Marines suck, but Chaos doesn't

Chaos Daemons are immortal, so even if they get squashed by any other power in the physical world they still wont be dead. Thats why I left them out of poll about survival
(Make a chaos player upset upset by commenting on how he painted his Matt Daemons)
Unless im mistaken i dont think Tzeentch has ultimate omnipotent say over what happens, just heavy influence.(right?) Besides he's probably the most self destructive of all chaos gods, he wont ever let his plans reach an end because that means he can't scheme anymore. He would be 3 seconds from victory and spoil his own plans so he can keep...planning

GW didnt make a race thats undefeatable. Every race looses battles. But exterminating a race is a whole different story, thats what this thread is about.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:It is Terra. And I find it interesting that you feel a faction will lose because it is too gargantuan to bring all of it's forces to bear.

I find it interesting you don't realize how bureaucracy slows everything down. It takes decades, even centuries, for the Imperium to mount a huge attack (ie a crusade). A minor retaliatory strike wouldn't do much to a hive fleet.

I always walked away from descriptions of the imperial fleet that had been designated heretical for failure to arrive at a battle due to being wiped out in a previous engagement or the hundreds of planets that taxes were not taken from due to rounding errors on another planet three thousand years warp travel away more with a sense of how enormous it all was than that it was completely useless.

Today in America our government can waste/lose hundreds of millions of dollars and still have 99% efficiency. The imperium can lose sector size fleets along with hundreds of planets and not even feel the loss.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:The Tyranids are literally headed to Terra.

Only two minor hive fleets. It's not like Terra would be hurting for lack of defenses.

I was under the impression that the Nid's in general were drawn by the astrominicon [sp?], maybe even to this galaxy rather than another because of it. This would make a confrontation of an existential nature limited only by the Tyranids speed.


If I am wrong and the Nid's elect to forage using a wide net and avoid positions of strength the Imperium can use that time to gather it's strength and engage in virus bombing/exterminatus as a delaying tactic.

True....

Without Star Child thing Necrons(my thought).

Im still rooting for csm's cause theyre tank

CSM all the way.

1. They can flee to the eye, its pretty much an impenetrable hidey hole.

2. A weakened imperium would certainly be giving ground (territory and troops) to chaos. just fully conquering cadia would bolter their strength immensely (cadian gate).

3. In storm of iron it mentions the iron warriors enslaving a hive ship so to me that says hive mind vs chaos=chaos wins.

4. Orks are no problem, destroy their ramshackle space fleets and turn their planets into daemon worlds ala the gehamet towers in dark apostle.

The necrons could actually pose a serious problem, however in all likelihood i think they would just avoid each other.

the other races tau, eldar, dark eldar would just get stomped and/or corrupted.

pff autocannons and slaanesh maul necrons, i mean their gods arnt immune to id for gods sake (pardon the pun) i can just blissgiver them


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but yes those are very good points that i agree with and praise

Tyranic Marta wrote:pff autocannons and slaanesh maul necrons, i mean their gods arnt immune to id for gods sake (pardon the pun) i can just blissgiver them


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but yes those are very good points that i agree with and praise

One thing those Blackstone Fortresses are actually aren't practical.They been already used to kill C'tan and they've failed.
We have examples of Necron escorts destroying Chaos Cruisers in one of Caiphas Cain novels without sustaining any considerable damage.
Also Necrons can continiue to build Pylons to seal up warp.
Then we have examples how Necron ground weaponry rapes Orks and everyone generally.
Then we have their FTL and better tech.

mhm, i just think that csms kick but in general

Tyranic Marta wrote:mhm, i just think that csms kick but in general

They can't do that,we have Orks(who's gods will play with Chaos Gods) and Nids.
Then we have Emperor,my favorite ending is that Star Child stomps everything.

You guys are talking tabletop wise, lore wise is a pretty different story, short of exterminatus an ork world typically stays an ork world. They reproduce too fast an numerous to wipe off the planet.

Kill a space marine (csm or not) how long does it take to train a marine back to that level?

Kill an Ork it takes less than a year before 12 more sprout from it's death ready and able to rip out throats.
Orks all day erry day

And yes Gork and Mork would probably slaughter the Chaos Gods if it ever came down to them fighting.

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:You guys are talking tabletop wise, lore wise is a pretty different story, short of exterminatus an ork world typically stays an ork world. They reproduce too fast an numerous to wipe off the planet.

Kill a space marine (csm or not) how long does it take to train a marine back to that level?

Kill an Ork it takes less than a year before 12 more sprout from it's death ready and able to rip out throats.
Orks all day erry day

And yes Gork and Mork would probably slaughter the Chaos Gods if it ever came down to them fighting.

I was talking about fluff,I never include game mechanics and I've provided evidence.
Necrons are better than Orks(especially on Naval level,you have no idea how Necron stats are nerfed in BFG).

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:

And yes Gork and Mork would probably slaughter the Chaos Gods if it ever came down to them fighting.

Seriously? no...just no. are gork and mork even real gods? arent the orks just bio weapons created by the old ones? and even if they do exist, the chaos gods can make their followers sprout tentacles and drag whole worlds screaming into the warp, what have gork and mork ever done?

even in the fluff the orks get trounced one on one by just about everyone. they have poor quality troops, inferior tech, and zero discipline. the orks would overrun the galaxy by sheer weight of numbers IF they united and thats a gigantic if as in not going to happen. its like pointing out that cockroaches would dominate the world after a nuclear war, its possible but at the same time completely improbable.

I have to agree that the crons are the pound for pound heaviest hitters ironically this means that they will fall the same way the have in the past, the other races realize they are the biggest threat and briefly unite to rolfstomp them.

my moneys still on chaos

Maledictus wrote:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:

And yes Gork and Mork would probably slaughter the Chaos Gods if it ever came down to them fighting.

Seriously? no...just no. are gork and mork even real gods? arent the orks just bio weapons created by the old ones? and even if they do exist, the chaos gods can make their followers sprout tentacles and drag whole worlds screaming into the warp, what have gork and mork ever done?

even in the fluff the orks get trounced one on one by just about everyone. they have poor quality troops, inferior tech, and zero discipline. the orks would overrun the galaxy by sheer weight of numbers IF they united and thats a gigantic if as in not going to happen. its like pointing out that cockroaches would dominate the world after a nuclear war, its possible but at the same time completely improbable.

I have to agree that the crons are the pound for pound heaviest hitters ironically this means that they will fall the same way the have in the past, the other races realize they are the biggest threat and briefly unite to rolfstomp them.

my moneys still on chaos

They are real gods,Orks are possibly the biggest race in the galaxy.
Necrons can't be really roflstomped by physical means,current forces are just raiders not full indicative of their power,current races would never unite.Only way to defeat Necrons is to use psychic powers.

IvanTih wrote:

Maledictus wrote:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:

And yes Gork and Mork would probably slaughter the Chaos Gods if it ever came down to them fighting.

Seriously? no...just no. are gork and mork even real gods? arent the orks just bio weapons created by the old ones? and even if they do exist, the chaos gods can make their followers sprout tentacles and drag whole worlds screaming into the warp, what have gork and mork ever done?

even in the fluff the orks get trounced one on one by just about everyone. they have poor quality troops, inferior tech, and zero discipline. the orks would overrun the galaxy by sheer weight of numbers IF they united and thats a gigantic if as in not going to happen. its like pointing out that cockroaches would dominate the world after a nuclear war, its possible but at the same time completely improbable.

I have to agree that the crons are the pound for pound heaviest hitters ironically this means that they will fall the same way the have in the past, the other races realize they are the biggest threat and briefly unite to rolfstomp them.

my moneys still on chaos

They are real gods,Orks are possibly the biggest race in the galaxy.
Necrons can't be really roflstomped by physical means,current forces are just raiders not full indicative of their power,current races would never unite.Only way to defeat Necrons is to use psychic powers.

phychic powers....chaos...erm cough cough.

the chaos gods are the most powerful psychic entities out there hands down. and again if gork and mork are so powerful why don't the manifest themselves in any meaningful way? if they do exist (you're right, they do http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gork_and_Mork) then my theory is either that they are aspects of khorne (unlikely) or that they are to unfocused/poorly realized as a result of the orks primitive mentality to be effective in the physical universe (possible).

@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

I havnt read the books, and i am basing my ideas, purely on personal likes and experience, sorry if im not pro enough to read the books

IvanTih wrote:@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

The emp is a contender sure, but there are four chaos gods. even if the big e does die and come back as a god its still four on one.

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

The emp is a contender sure, but there are four chaos gods. even if the big e does die and come back as a god its still four on one.

The material states when the Emperor awakenes the Chaos gets stomped(Xenology implies that Star Child fluff is still vaild).

But he wont wake up cause hes so close to death its not funny, they cant keep him alive and when he does die slaanesh will eat his soul


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+ dead emporor

IvanTih wrote:

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

The emp is a contender sure, but there are four chaos gods. even if the big e does die and come back as a god its still four on one.

The material states when the Emperor awakenes the Chaos gets stomped(Xenology implies that Star Child fluff is still vaild).

I'm pretty sure that it states that he wakes up and butts heads with chaos not that he wins. that would be like ruining the ending of the proverbial 40k novel. also unless i'm mistaken, and i may well be, the sensei/star child fluff was retconned out of existence some time ago. so yeah, where does the "material" state that the emp wins?

It has to be orks. I mean, you just cannot kill them all.

Hell, even if they run out if tech (unlikely) they just go feral, like on Armageddon.

And let's face it, the more feral an ork gets, the more cunning they get (ambush tactics, booby traps, the whole Snikrot thing)

S_P

I think it's obvious who I'm rooting for.

Just wait for a few years while we get some of our fancy schmancy tech pulled out of the soil, and then you'll see why Necrons once were the terror of the galaxy.

but in the apocalypse necron fluff it says that necrons dont consider the current armies fighting them to be enough of a threat to raise the epic stuff they have, which means that necrons are gonna have to wait awhile to get that stuff.... lolz

Tyranic Marta wrote:but in the apocalypse necron fluff it says that necrons dont consider the current armies fighting them to be enough of a threat to raise the epic stuff they have, which means that necrons are gonna have to wait awhile to get that stuff.... lolz

Okay, so we've got a bit of hubris.

mhm

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

The emp is a contender sure, but there are four chaos gods. even if the big e does die and come back as a god its still four on one.

The material states when the Emperor awakenes the Chaos gets stomped(Xenology implies that Star Child fluff is still vaild).

I'm pretty sure that it states that he wakes up and butts heads with chaos not that he wins. that would be like ruining the ending of the proverbial 40k novel. also unless i'm mistaken, and i may well be, the sensei/star child fluff was retconned out of existence some time ago. so yeah, where does the "material" state that the emp wins?

Xenology implies that the fluff is still vaild and I have the book.

Im going to be devils advocate and say that implied fluff is just that implied, you cant argue on the basis of something that isnt written down plain

From the Ork codex: "Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other Gods with a raucous laugh."

Yes Gork and Mork are Gods. Gods that have the unwavering worship by the most numerous race in the galaxy.

K

Orks should come to necrons and fight. Necrons gain power. Orks are happy with fighting and C'tan are pleased. Necrons build a whole lot of monoliths and take it to the nids. Nids dead, now the galaxy can get back to fighting as usual. All eldar and dark eldar given to the necrons to keep c'tan happy. Tau fights IOM and while this is happening necrons decide to decimate IOM. That also ends chaos. Finally everything is simple again and we can get back to battling.

firefight232 wrote:Orks should come to necrons and fight. Necrons gain power. Orks are happy with fighting and C'tan are pleased. Necrons build a whole lot of monoliths and take it to the nids. Nids dead, now the galaxy can get back to fighting as usual. All eldar and dark eldar given to the necrons to keep c'tan happy. Tau fights IOM and while this is happening necrons decide to decimate IOM. That also ends chaos. Finally everything is simple again and we can get back to battling.

so so wrong.

IvanTih wrote:

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Maledictus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:@Maledictus
You forget the Emperor,the First Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies "the real war begins".
He also limits their powers on the material world.

The emp is a contender sure, but there are four chaos gods. even if the big e does die and come back as a god its still four on one.

The material states when the Emperor awakenes the Chaos gets stomped(Xenology implies that Star Child fluff is still vaild).

I'm pretty sure that it states that he wakes up and butts heads with chaos not that he wins. that would be like ruining the ending of the proverbial 40k novel. also unless i'm mistaken, and i may well be, the sensei/star child fluff was retconned out of existence some time ago. so yeah, where does the "material" state that the emp wins?

Xenology implies that the fluff is still vaild and I have the book.

What page number is that? i just realized that my next door neighbor owns it as well.

I think if it comes down to it necrons would outlast the others. You really can't fail with the c'tan on your side. The c'tan will probably find the hive fleets yummy and gobble up the nids.

Also if necrons are robots and the c'tan control them. If you kill the c'tan do the necrons also die. Can you even kill the c'tan? Maybe the emperor or like the chaos gods or gork and mork or something like that.

firefight232 wrote:I think if it comes down to it necrons would outlast the others. You really can't fail with the c'tan on your side. The c'tan will probably find the hive fleets yummy and gobble up the nids.

Also if necrons are robots and the c'tan control them. If you kill the c'tan do the necrons also die. Can you even kill the c'tan? Maybe the emperor or like the chaos gods or gork and mork or something like that.

-.- No. Just no. You need to read more of this place to find out why so many people hate the necrons. They cannot win.

There is one huge flaw in the C'tan logic, they are vulnerable to psychic attacks. Tyranids have no sense of fear, meaning they won't become disorganized by their presence, and the hive mind would overwelm them with psychic creatures.

so simple its scary, good bye necrons, ok i thin we can happily extingush them from the argument, excellent, 1 down 6 to go


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

The weakness of the chaos gods is that tyranids kill their source of power and the hivemind represses the warp. As the tyranids gain ground, chaos loses ground.

Mr Nobody wrote:The weakness of the chaos gods is that tyranids kill their source of power and the hivemind represses the warp. As the tyranids gain ground, chaos loses ground.

Yep sadly the ultimate race is the Tyranids. I cannot defeat the entire Nid race. We have only seen scouts. If the real Hive Fleets arrive in full force with the hives greatest creatures the galaxy is screwed. We have only had a drop of its power. Imagine an entire wine glass of vodka given to a upstart 5 year old boy who is so smart but when he takes a drink of this he dies instantly.
That is basically the power of the Tyranids if it was a alcoholic beverage. (sorry for the metaphor. I can only think of that)

my issue with nids is that the imperium will develop a virus that targets their dna then theyll be fethed

Tyranids, with their ever-changing genetics, will either develop an immunity or change their genetic makeup to such a degree that the virus doesn't recognize their DNA any more.

Assuming they can do it fast enough.

I doubt they can. They've taken decades to produce bio/pyrovores out of Ork DNA, and they haven't really harnessed any of the inherent strengths of Orks in a new type of Tyranid in all that time.

the virus that the american military is producing can kill a cow in 10 minutes, advance that to 40K tech and you have a virus that could wipe out all the enemies of the imperium in one go

They already have that weapon, the problem is that it wipes out all life on a planet unless deployed in EXTREMELY careful and controlled ways. Heck, just a very small deployment in the Armageddon wars nearly destroyed Imperial lines when they screwed up while trying to use it on the Orks (it worked on the Orks... and then on the humans, too).

Tyranic Marta wrote:the virus that the american military is producing can kill a cow in 10 minutes, advance that to 40K tech and you have a virus that could wipe out all the enemies of the imperium in one go

That there is called the Life-eater virus. It's used as a method of bringing about Exterminatus on a planet, by eating away all the biological matter on said planet until it is nothing more than a husk.
Problem with it is that it's indiscriminatory; it'll kill anything in the area of the attack. So no, not really a weapon to be used lightly, kind of like modern nukes.

EDIT: Melissia, you talking about the bombs Von Strab used?

Immunity works like this:

You have a species with slight variations in genetics, and a few of them just happen to have the right genes to resist the right disease. This allows an immunity to eventually develop. This immunity is carried on to the next generation, eventually starving the disease, until the disease changes too.

In the Tyranids case, they would either a batch of Tyranids or hivefleet to have a resistance or immunity. The immune hivefleet must then jump ahead of the spreading virus and share with other fleets.

Another hope is that the infected hivefleet sends out a distress signal to other fleets, telling them of the disease. If they can modify their genes to a great enough degree, then the disease cannot be transmittable. But Melissia is correct in that time is an issue and the deciding factor in all this.


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Don't they use life eater virus in their scorch and burn tactic?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:EDIT: Melissia, you talking about the bombs Von Strab used?

The ones fired in defense of armageddon's hives, yes. They were described, if I remember my Ork fluff correctly, as being an incredibly deadly viral weapon, which reduces an Ork's biology to a puddle of goo within seconds. Humans? MUCH faster.

yeah we know how immunity works ... well i do anyway, the point is that the weapon would work to quickly for the nids to reproduce, there would be NO new generations to pass the immunity on to

Couldn't you use the virus debate on every race, except necrons and daemons.

Lol, they actually noted that. They wouldn't use exterminatus on a daemonworld because they don't want to give them ideas.

If nurgle was less lazy and a little less "artsy" with his viruses, he could really do some damage.

mhm yeah thats why i said in one of my posts that the imperium could easily win

But what if someone makes a human virus?

thn everbody is screwed


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whos is the last race standing? necrons hahahahaha

Melissia wrote:Assuming they can do it fast enough.

I doubt they can. They've taken decades to produce bio/pyrovores out of Ork DNA, and they haven't really harnessed any of the inherent strengths of Orks in a new type of Tyranid in all that time.

In one of the fluff stories in Codex Tyranids, it describes a war against the Tau. Each time the Tau brought a new weapon up to fight them, the wave after that had alterations to defend against it. Tyranids can certainly adapt their defenses very quickly. I doubt they conquered another entire galaxy, and probably countless more, if a simple virus could wipe them out.

I must say, The Imperium would survive longest. Look at all they have faced and come up standing. no matter what, the imperial forces will always thrive.

TheGentleman wrote:I must say, The Imperium would survive longest. Look at all they have faced and come up standing. no matter what, the imperial forces will always thrive.

Well, they're on the decline. They've had their time in the sun. Now, they're a bunch of superstitious shut-ins, whose only big innovations come from finding old technology. Their only method of reliable warp travel (which also happens to be their God, and the center of their entire belief structure, which is also the basis of their entire society) is worn beyond repair, and will soon break down for good. The Imperium is on the brink of falling.

got to agree

-Loki- wrote:I doubt they conquered another entire galaxy, and probably countless more

THIS, I agree with, but only when taken out of context and viewed just as is in this quote.

I'm more likely to believe that the Tyranids are on the run from someone



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TheGentleman wrote:I must say, The Imperium would survive longest. Look at all they have faced and come up standing. no matter what, the imperial forces will always thrive.

Orks ahve lived through longer and and survived through far more horrific wars.

Melissia wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I doubt they conquered another entire galaxy, and probably countless more

THIS, I agree with, but only when taken out of context and viewed just as is in this quote.

I'm more likely to believe that the Tyranids are on the run from someone

If they are, and something as powerful as the Tyranid race is scared of it, I can't see much hope even for Orks surviving when they get to this galaxy.

i agree with both points and will add that whatever the nids are running from must be pretty frelling epic

Systematic comsumption of every planet in the galaxy isn't exactly screaming "running away" for me.

maybe they need some more juice to beat up whatevers following them

Mr Nobody wrote:Systematic comsumption of every planet in the galaxy isn't exactly screaming "running away" for me.

If you're hungry, you have to eat.

Tyranids don't produce, they only consume. Thus, they HAVE to consume whole worlds.

I wonder if gw will introduce the nid enemy in a later edition?

They won't, because GW don't advance the storyline.

true, gr

Melissia wrote:Assuming they can do it fast enough.

I doubt they can. They've taken decades to produce bio/pyrovores out of Ork DNA, and they haven't really harnessed any of the inherent strengths of Orks in a new type of Tyranid in all that time.

It is quite possible that we just haven't seen the Tyranids in a situation where they think "yeah, this situation calls for some Ork attributes". They don't create creatures for the sake of it - always for a purpose.

It could always be a lot more subtle as well - perhaps the Tyranids have enhanced their Tyrannoforming techniques through the use of the Ork sporing knowledge they've gained? Perhaps very toxic "chimney", be it on the ground or on the back of a Carnifex, is a subtle, unseen tribute to Ork DNA?

You'll know that tyranids are properly implementing ork DNA when they start looting things
And if they do EARTH IS DOOMED

tru

They do loot..., they loot your DNA.

das tru too

Also, I thought I should point out - the 'producing biovores from Orks, Zoanthropes from Eldar, Tyrant Guard from Space Marines' was written out of the fluff by Robin Cruddace. it's been retconned so they had all of these things ever since Hive Fleet Behemoth, including the Swarmlord, Trygons, Mawlocs and Raveners being present on Macragge.

So the whole 'the Tyranids haven't done anything useful with Ork DNA' isn't really valid anymore. In the new fluff, they aren't using DNA from species in this galaxy to make creatures with their best traits, since they always had these creatures in their swarm - they just think for themselves what they want to make with their biomass. They just use the species they consume to make more of it. So they didn't make a 'bad choice' making the Biovore out of Orks, they just eat Orks and make more of whatever they want.

Their ability to create new creatures on the fly is described in a fluff story with Hive Fleet Naga, which creates an immense, Trygon like creature, but about the size of a Reaver titan, that effortlessly munches an entire Titan Legion by itself.

Yeah I saw that. gobsmacked a bit by gw when they do this
Love how GW comes in and says 'this bit of fluff is irrelevant now' seems like a dick move to anyone who's been reading a lot!

Yeah.... kind of annoying

Because, if they didn't, someone would make a thread about how the fluff doesn't make sense since trygons, biovores and zoanthropes showed up on Macragge.

Mr Nobody wrote:Because, if they didn't, someone would make a thread about how the fluff doesn't make sense since trygons, biovores and zoanthropes showed up on Macragge.

I'd bet somewhere on some forum, someone did it anyways...

Tyranids have always been in a state of retcon. Every edition they decide a new way to take them. And really, since most Nid beasts have been around since Hive War for Epic, I'd say they've been around since Behemoth. Tyranids do keep losing stuff though.

From Flamespurt guns for Gargoyles to losing all of their bio tanks (Exocrines, Malefactors, Haruspexes, etc). Seems GW can't quite decide on a way to take Tyranids that they are happy with, fluff wise. They should have just left Phil Kelly in charge of them - he seemed to be taking them in the direction the playerbase liked.

Necrons. Why?
Shuddup thats wot!

Though for real, Nids and Necrons and maybe orkzez. A necron kills a nid with a gauss gun>is put into its original elements>nothing left biomass wise>if there is anything left most likely to hard or take to long for nids to do utilise it
vs. Orks? same thing would happen including the spores gettign wupped

Interesting point, but are there enough necrons to defeat both the nids and the orks simultaneously?

cRaZy_MaChEtE_mAn wrote:Necrons. Why?
Shuddup thats wot!

Though for real, Nids and Necrons and maybe orkzez. A necron kills a nid with a gauss gun>is put into its original elements>nothing left biomass wise>if there is anything left most likely to hard or take to long for nids to do utilise it
vs. Orks? same thing would happen including the spores gettign wupped

That's a lot of flaying though, and while the technology may be a sound means of winning in theory, in practice it's a lot harder. If it really were as simple as "flay them until there's none left" then the Necrons (and C'tan) would have cleansed the galaxy of organic life 65 million years ago. It didn't play out like that though - the war raged for a non-disclosed period of time with no end in sight, because the Orks (and others) didn't just stand there in an orderly line waiting to be Gaussed. They fought back. Hard.

My .02 cents on this.


Necrons - As I believe someone mentioned, particularly weak to psykers, and there is no shortage of them in any army/society.

Imperium - quite frankly, I think they would last for a long while, but wouldn't win. Orks and Tyrannids outnumber them easily, and they reproduce at a drastically lower rate than either of them. Put up a good fight, but eventually they'll be thinned too much.

Eldar - Yes, they are relatively few in number, but I feel like people are forgetting the fun little fact that since they put there souls in spirit stones, they can fight even after they die to protect the Craftworld. Underestimated by most armies, which gives them help, especially when they are also backed up by the Exodites, they'll last longer than people give them credit. However, their numbers are few enough that eventually they'll be wiped out.


Tau - First empire knocked out imo. They already have major struggles against just the Tyranids by themselves. Having the entire universe in a no-holds-barred fight? They
just don't have enough strength to last beyond the other races.

Dark Eldar - I'm not sure where to place DE. They're numbers are fairly large compared to the Eldar, and they have the added benefit that they live and move through the webway, which is notoriously hard for other races to find. Even with the new fluff from the new codex, the only reason Commoragh was attacked was by Vect opening all the webway portals for the Imperium to come in. That safety coupled with their hit-and-run tactics would help them go far. Plus, they are one of the few races that seem relatively unconcerned about the Tyranid threat, looking at them as nothing more than a biological weapon.

Orks - One of the last standing. They live and breathe war, get better from fighting, and breed faster than bunnies.

Tyranids - It really depends on who is left at the end of the war. If its races such as Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar, they're done. If its, say, Orks, the Imperium, and Tau, then Tyranids win easily.

Xyptc wrote:

cRaZy_MaChEtE_mAn wrote:Necrons. Why?
Shuddup thats wot!

Though for real, Nids and Necrons and maybe orkzez. A necron kills a nid with a gauss gun>is put into its original elements>nothing left biomass wise>if there is anything left most likely to hard or take to long for nids to do utilise it
vs. Orks? same thing would happen including the spores gettign wupped

That's a lot of flaying though, and while the technology may be a sound means of winning in theory, in practice it's a lot harder. If it really were as simple as "flay them until there's none left" then the Necrons (and C'tan) would have cleansed the galaxy of organic life 65 million years ago. It didn't play out like that though - the war raged for a non-disclosed period of time with no end in sight, because the Orks (and others) didn't just stand there in an orderly line waiting to be Gaussed. They fought back. Hard.

Except that Necrons didn't want to cleanse galaxy of life,the galaxy was ti become a giant slave society.
Necrons would have won if the Enslavers didn't appear.

vishra wrote:Tyranids - It really depends on who is left at the end of the war. If its races such as Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar, they're done. If its, say, Orks, the Imperium, and Tau, then Tyranids win easily.

Why? Tyranids make use of metal. They bring it to their digestion pools, break it down to its core minerals, and use it. So Necrons can still be eaten. Eldar? I don't see why they'd be trouble for Tyranids. They've already eaten a few Craftworlds (Iyanden was nearly destroyed by Kraken, and Malan'tai was annihilated by a single variant Zoanthrope). Dark Eldar, well, there's simply not enough of them to be a threat to the Tyranids.

You're also assuming that Tyranids get their biomass from the races they fight against. Not so. The vast bulk of their biomass comes from eating planets. There's far more digestible biomass on the planets surface than just the inhabitants.

I don't see how this is even a question. Necrons have already proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they will outlast any and all races. Tyranid is a close second. VERY close second.

All the other races are either on their way down, or are not "long lived" enough in the sense of their culture and species to even hope to compete with these two. You'd probably have random orks popping up too because its pretty much impossible to get rid of them....I mean they are a galactic fungal infection.

The reasons for these statements are very simple. All the other races are either in massive decline and will go into extinction even if the status quo continutes, or they are restricted to a single galaxy which by definition the Necron and 'nids are not....orks won't be forever either. 'nids are out there devouring other galaxies, and the Necrons are buried on random planets god only knows where and how many.


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NeedsMoreDakka wrote:
Then you have Nids, driven only by the need to feed, but im curious as to what happens when all the fleets (Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken) Finally all meet?

According to modern physics this probably wouldn't happen due to the fact that space extends infinitely in all 3 dimensions, but not infinitely in other dimensions that have a high probability of existence in String Theory. Assuming that the 'nids had a common starting point in another galaxy (alluded to in fluff) they will keep extending in the direction of "easiest prey" for an infinitely long period (as well as infinitely many directions in 3 dimensional space) or the end of what we define as reality whichever comes first (yes, wrap your brain around it a bit), provided of course that they weren't wiped out by someone more bad ass.

Also, pretty sure the Necrons can avoid any biological life form until it withers away or the stars literally burn themselves out. Read the codex.


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-Loki- wrote:

vishra wrote:Tyranids - It really depends on who is left at the end of the war. If its races such as Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar, they're done. If its, say, Orks, the Imperium, and Tau, then Tyranids win easily.

Why? Tyranids make use of metal. They bring it to their digestion pools, break it down to its core minerals, and use it. So Necrons can still be eaten. Eldar? I don't see why they'd be trouble for Tyranids. They've already eaten a few Craftworlds (Iyanden was nearly destroyed by Kraken, and Malan'tai was annihilated by a single variant Zoanthrope). Dark Eldar, well, there's simply not enough of them to be a threat to the Tyranids.

You're also assuming that Tyranids get their biomass from the races they fight against. Not so. The vast bulk of their biomass comes from eating planets. There's far more digestible biomass on the planets surface than just the inhabitants.

Assuming that the 'nids are carbon based, this is a valid point. Still, the sheer size of real space (which is alluded too in 40k fluff CONSTANTLY) is such that it is fundamentally impossible to find something that is not emitting any energy or light....and hibernating Necrons do neither in any of the books I've read. They're effectively cloaked for all purposes when in full hibernation. Think about it like this. You yourself are dropped into the middle of the sahara and told that somewhere is a twinkie. You'll want it, you'll search for it, you might find other stuff, but the probability that you actually find the twinkie buried in a random sand dune is so small that its effectively impossible. Even if it started out only 10 feet away from you.

The new Dark Eldar fluff shows that they really aren't concerned about the Tyranids; they used them as biological weapons when they felt like it, and when they wanted to fight them (invasion against the Tau) they did it rather easily, using only Haemonculi forces to wipe them out. Also, I'm very fuzzy on this and could be wrong, but I wasn't aware the Tyranids could get into the Webway.

agroszkiewicz wrote:Assuming that the 'nids are carbon based, this is a valid point. Still, the sheer size of real space (which is alluded too in 40k fluff CONSTANTLY) is such that it is fundamentally impossible to find something that is not emitting any energy or light....and hibernating Necrons do neither in any of the books I've read. They're effectively cloaked for all purposes when in full hibernation. Think about it like this. You yourself are dropped into the middle of the sahara and told that somewhere is a twinkie. You'll want it, you'll search for it, you might find other stuff, but the probability that you actually find the twinkie buried in a random sand dune is so small that its effectively impossible. Even if it started out only 10 feet away from you.

Good point about the necrons effectively cloaking themselves. But it doesn't matter - the Tyranids aren't looking for planets that are habited and defended. They're just looking for planets that have the biomass they want to consume. If there's a race inhabiting the planet, they eat them along with it. If the Necrons have cloaked their presence on a planet, they Tyranids would still see actual planet, which is what they want. The races defending them are just obstacles in that path. Those Necrons? They don't care. The planet? They want.

It's like... putting an obstacle course between a fat person and a buffet. They'll get through that obstacle course, count on it.

-Loki- wrote:

agroszkiewicz wrote:Assuming that the 'nids are carbon based, this is a valid point. Still, the sheer size of real space (which is alluded too in 40k fluff CONSTANTLY) is such that it is fundamentally impossible to find something that is not emitting any energy or light....and hibernating Necrons do neither in any of the books I've read. They're effectively cloaked for all purposes when in full hibernation. Think about it like this. You yourself are dropped into the middle of the sahara and told that somewhere is a twinkie. You'll want it, you'll search for it, you might find other stuff, but the probability that you actually find the twinkie buried in a random sand dune is so small that its effectively impossible. Even if it started out only 10 feet away from you.

Good point about the necrons effectively cloaking themselves. But it doesn't matter - the Tyranids aren't looking for planets that are habited and defended. They're just looking for planets that have the biomass they want to consume. If there's a race inhabiting the planet, they eat them along with it. If the Necrons have cloaked their presence on a planet, they Tyranids would still see actual planet, which is what they want. The races defending them are just obstacles in that path. Those Necrons? They don't care. The planet? They want.

It's like... putting an obstacle course between a fat person and a buffet. They'll get through that obstacle course, count on it.

I wasn't meaning to infer that the 'nids were looking for anything, simply trying to make an analogy about the sheer size of space that folks can actually wrap their brain around. Space is effing HUGE beyond measuring, and thats a literal statement. Based on the depiction of the sizes of known 'nid activity from all the codex's and fluff I've read really point towards them being a vast entity that is still defined by existence in 3 dimensions (the warp really isn't that far fetched when you consider String Theory and particle physics), possibly 4 if you subscribe to the theory that psychic energy is other dimensional in nature, ditto to the webway.

Reading the Necron codex, the C'tan are NOT limited by a 3 dimensional existence....at least not until they entered their bodies. This means that the Necron race has the ultimate advantage...they literally exist on a different level of reality from other races, and thereby will likely be impossible to exerminate. Hell, look at how long the Eldar have managed to stay alive following that concept and they are totally 3 dimensional beings.

Well yeah. The simple size of the galaxy is just not shown.

GW love to release maps in each codex that shows races spanning the whole galaxy, overlapping each other as well if you combine the maps. However, a galaxy is, as you say, big. They show a map showing dozens of Ork empires, but the amount of space between them would contain hundreds of millions of planets not in that empire.

They show the Imperium stretching across the galaxy, but there amount of planets in that area would be in the untold trillions. There'd be plenty of planets in there that humans aren't living on. They show Tyranid Hive Fleets stretching, worming into the galaxy - but the chances of them hitting inhabited solar systems all the time isn't that big.

it's all about exaggeration - which is 40k's key strength to its narrative. Everyone is everywhere fighting all the time.

-Loki- wrote:Well yeah. The simple size of the galaxy is just not shown.

GW love to release maps in each codex that shows races spanning the whole galaxy, overlapping each other as well if you combine the maps. However, a galaxy is, as you say, big. They show a map showing dozens of Ork empires, but the amount of space between them would contain hundreds of millions of planets not in that empire.

They show the Imperium stretching across the galaxy, but there amount of planets in that area would be in the untold trillions. There'd be plenty of planets in there that humans aren't living on. They show Tyranid Hive Fleets stretching, worming into the galaxy - but the chances of them hitting inhabited solar systems all the time isn't that big.

it's all about exaggeration - which is 40k's key strength to its narrative. Everyone is everywhere fighting all the time.

Fo sho, just pointing out that according to GW's own literature there are races that extend beyond our own galaxy...hell orks could very well already have expanded. Its not like they have a newsletter that explains these things! Factoring in the immense distance between each galaxy (or galaxy cluster) means that any race able to traverse that void would have a substantially more efficient energy source than that of the Imperium. That means that the race in question would have an astronomical advantage over others in terms of production, population, and ability to manipulate the world around them. We wouldn't really even be able to recognize it as "technology", which is a fitting description for 'nids and Necrons.

Orks are just violent and impossible to eradicate. I doubt even the 'nids could eat all of them faster than they could breed.

Im going to have to vote orks, everytime you kill them every single cell in their body turns into a spore and floats about till it finds somewhere darkish to land and grow. Assuming and ork is say 6-10 ft tall, thats a whole craptonne of spores. Also, dont forget gretchin, for every ork, there are ATLEAST 3-4 gretchin.

Orks do have many many civil wars, but with all the orks out there, who is to say there isnt another Ghazgull Mag Urak Thraka? cos he is da hand of Gork and Mork, So somones gotta be the FEET!

In a real world with all of these factions vying for control of the galaxy or its destruction most likely tyranid or necron but in a GW controlled wolrd THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!!!!!!!!

agroszkiewicz wrote:
Orks are just violent and impossible to eradicate. I doubt even the 'nids could eat all of them faster than they could breed.

I see what you're saying here, but not even Orks are going to be able to prosper on a world properly scoured by a hive Fleet - not liquids, not atmosphere, no geo-thermal heat. Just a ball of dust. Given enough Tyranids and enough time, the number of worlds capable of supporting life in the galaxy will drop towards zero and other forms of life will be forced into a corner (or have to live in space - Orks might well become a space hulk ghost story).

As for the Tyranids finding worlds - I see exactly whhat you're saying regarding the size of the galaxy relative to the amount of matter (let alone planets) in it, but now the Tyranid Narvhal can "see" the gravity wells of other planets/stars etc. If it's there, they'll find it.

Tyranic Marta wrote:Interesting point, but are there enough necrons to defeat both the nids and the orks simultaneously?

Their* total number remains unknown. It doesn't really matter how many they are, they'll just get back up and keep fighting.

Necrons*

I'm split between Orkz, 'Nids and 'Crons, but I voted for the Orkz.

Xyptc wrote:

agroszkiewicz wrote:
Orks are just violent and impossible to eradicate. I doubt even the 'nids could eat all of them faster than they could breed.

I see what you're saying here, but not even Orks are going to be able to prosper on a world properly scoured by a hive Fleet - not liquids, not atmosphere, no geo-thermal heat. Just a ball of dust. Given enough Tyranids and enough time, the number of worlds capable of supporting life in the galaxy will drop towards zero and other forms of life will be forced into a corner (or have to live in space - Orks might well become a space hulk ghost story).

As for the Tyranids finding worlds - I see exactly whhat you're saying regarding the size of the galaxy relative to the amount of matter (let alone planets) in it, but now the Tyranid Narvhal can "see" the gravity wells of other planets/stars etc. If it's there, they'll find it.

What's to stop other races from simply re-terraforming the entire world?

vishra wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

agroszkiewicz wrote:
Orks are just violent and impossible to eradicate. I doubt even the 'nids could eat all of them faster than they could breed.

I see what you're saying here, but not even Orks are going to be able to prosper on a world properly scoured by a hive Fleet - not liquids, not atmosphere, no geo-thermal heat. Just a ball of dust. Given enough Tyranids and enough time, the number of worlds capable of supporting life in the galaxy will drop towards zero and other forms of life will be forced into a corner (or have to live in space - Orks might well become a space hulk ghost story).

As for the Tyranids finding worlds - I see exactly whhat you're saying regarding the size of the galaxy relative to the amount of matter (let alone planets) in it, but now the Tyranid Narvhal can "see" the gravity wells of other planets/stars etc. If it's there, they'll find it.

What's to stop other races from simply re-terraforming the entire world?

How many races have the ability to do that to the degree that is necessary after a world has been scoured? The Tyranids take so much with them that what is left behind is essentially worthless. No atmosphere, no liquid, severaly drained geo-thermal core, depleted minerals etc.

As I recall, the Eldar once had that ability but it's pretty much lost to them now (hence the whole race to protect Maiden Worlds from defilers thing).

There is a reason that they are called "dead worlds".

I see a few options...
1. Tyranids kill everything, necrons are left. Only thing is necrons dont multiply so maybe they will be killed before everything to kill them gets killed.

2. The golden throne fails (it says so in the 5th edition rulebook) and daemons kill everything, leaving chaos space marines alive but the marines will prob get killed by the constant chaos wars, leaving only the gods themselves (and constantly reacreated servants).

3. Orks kill nids and everything else, then fight each other for ever.

4. Orks and nids fight a constant stalemate until nids create something that kills ork spore and bye bye orks.

5. The tau become so technologically advanced they create a waepon that destroyes everything alive except themselves in the universe or somethin like that.

6.Dark eldar hamounculi can create new dark eldar (says so in the codex) so maybe they set up giant cration facilities and multiply their race billionfold.

Malice wrote:I see a few options...5. The tau become so technologically advanced they create a waepon that destroyes everything alive except themselves in the universe or somethin like that.

O god I hate Tau fanboys.
Tau only seem so advanced because they are more standardised than the Imperium,they have less soldier to arm.They're not more advanced than the Imperium.

undivided wrote:

Tyranic Marta wrote:Interesting point, but are there enough necrons to defeat both the nids and the orks simultaneously?

Their* total number remains unknown. It doesn't really matter how many they are, they'll just get back up and keep fighting.

Necrons*

I'm split between Orkz, 'Nids and 'Crons, but I voted for the Orkz.

Nah. they can't keep coming back someday they are going to run out of this deus ex machina as it is literally impossible I really hope that GW makes these guys less rigged in their lore

The Necrons aren't as flawed as orks or nids fluff.
Necrons already stopped when depleting their food source too much.
Orks would never stop fightin and nids never stop eating...

So Necrons got the superior tactics.

GW shouldn't have gone to nids consume the galaxy or orks swamp the galaxy with a green super-tide.
I dare to say the necron fluff has not this "we winz" claim followed by a clause to stop it.

1hadhq wrote:The Necrons aren't as flawed as orks or nids fluff.
Necrons already stopped when depleting their food source too much.
Orks would never stop fightin and nids never stop eating...

So Necrons got the superior tactics.

GW shouldn't have gone to nids consume the galaxy or orks swamp the galaxy with a green super-tide.
I dare to say the necron fluff has not this "we winz" claim followed by a clause to stop it.

I have a way to beat the orks!

1hadhq wrote:The Necrons aren't as flawed as orks or nids fluff.
Necrons already stopped when depleting their food source too much.
Orks would never stop fightin and nids never stop eating...

So Necrons got the superior tactics.

GW shouldn't have gone to nids consume the galaxy or orks swamp the galaxy with a green super-tide.
I dare to say the necron fluff has not this "we winz" claim followed by a clause to stop it.

Here's why Necrons win,Space Superiority and best tech and firepower in 40k.
Necrons can always phase out to bleed the enemy forces if odds are against them.
We have Necron Escorts defeating Chaos Cruisers with no heavy damage in one of Caiphas Cain novels.

Oh god, I hate tau haters.

Tau's technology is advancing at an accelerated pace, one day, they will advance technologically further than the imperium, and it's not far away.

Really?

Last fluff I read the Tau attempted to ally with Dark Eldar and I doubt many survived to tell of this 'effort'...

Their place in this poll is well deserved. If they keep on their current path, Tau will cease to exist soon.

"Oh god, I hate tau haters."
QFT

Their naievty is the most endearing thing about the tau. I hope we get more stories of parties for necrons and allying with nasties like the deldar.

Also they went from cavemen to railguns in 2000 years, they are doing something right.

Ill have to say necrons will be the rulers of a dead, nid ruined galaxy, seeing as the necrons cant be killed they will just phase out and come out with bigger numbers and repair and stand back up the nids wont waste their time fighting for something they cant eat and all those orks with give the nids alot of biomass to exterminate everything else. so it will have to be the crons sleeping and the nids floating to the next galexy.

ChaosxVoid wrote:Ill have to say necrons will be the rulers of a dead, nid ruined galaxy, seeing as the necrons cant be killed they will just phase out and come out with bigger numbers and repair and stand back up the nids wont waste their time fighting for something they cant eat and all those orks with give the nids alot of biomass to exterminate everything else. so it will have to be the crons sleeping and the nids floating to the next galexy.

Indeed, the Necrons may well look upon the scale of the Tyranid threat and simply think "nah, they'll be gone next week, let's just sit up here and let them pass by". They would conveniently cleanse the galaxy of psychic races too...

Mr Nobody wrote:Oh god, I hate tau haters.

Tau's technology is advancing at an accelerated pace, one day, they will advance technologically further than the imperium, and it's not far away.

And yet in Kill Team they aren't so superior.
The Imperium also advances just slowly,we have experimental torpedoes from Execution Hour,Hellfire bolter shells(variant which uses acids and poisons which are effective against Tyranids who have very,very good immune system).
They reverse engineer personal cloaking device from Tau(Deathwatch),they also had cloak technology long before Tau(Horus Heresy and Kill Team(They cloak five metre shuttle)).
Then we have new space ships classes and advances which happened after Horus Heresy.Power Armor has also improved by little,vehicles also advanced,advances in lance(perfected in M37) and plasma weaponry(they actually innovated and discovered a lost technlogy from Golden Age of Technology).
Adeptus Mechanicus aren't so stangnant(we have planet named Tesla which was full of new experimental weaponry,Codex:Tyranids 5th edition).

Yep power armor is now immune to the Life Eater Virus now. As long as you have your helmet on.

Asherian Command wrote:Yep power armor is now immune to the Life Eater Virus now. As long as you have your helmet on.

I think that it has been stated that Life Eater virus penetrates even fully enclosed power armor.

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Yep power armor is now immune to the Life Eater Virus now. As long as you have your helmet on.

I think that it has been stated that Life Eater virus penetrates even fully enclosed power armor.

I thought they fixed that D:. Unless if your in dreadnought or terminator armor your safe.

Power armour doesn't protect from life-eater.

I personally think it would come down to tyranids and orks. The tyranids keep consuming each side's dead and whatever biomass they've picked up on the way. As the fighting goes on more and more orks get attracted to the fight. The tyranids keep consuming and orks keep coming. I think it would be a stalemate. The orks would be in heaven no doubt wot wit all dis proper fightin'.

P.S. I like how the spell-checker said "tyranids" and "orks" are misspelled while "wot wit all dis proper fightin'" is perfectly fine.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Power armour doesn't protect from life-eater.

I know we discussed that.

Also, after the life eater virus is done, they ignite the atmoshere destroying anything not in a heavy bunker or a titan.

Asherian Command wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The Necrons aren't as flawed as orks or nids fluff.
Necrons already stopped when depleting their food source too much.
Orks would never stop fightin and nids never stop eating...

So Necrons got the superior tactics.

GW shouldn't have gone to nids consume the galaxy or orks swamp the galaxy with a green super-tide.
I dare to say the necron fluff has not this "we winz" claim followed by a clause to stop it.

I have a way to beat the orks!

and ive got a way to beat the nids:

And I suppose we should spray the necrons with water pistols until they rust! The power of squirting fluids has never aided me this greatly before.

asimo77 wrote: The power of squirting fluids has never aided me this greatly before.

im sorry, i have to do it: thats what she said!

And magnets defeat necrons, we can go on like this forever.

And 5th edition, probably the deadliest weapon of all against them.

Mr Nobody wrote:Oh god, I hate tau haters.

Tau's technology is advancing at an accelerated pace, one day, they will advance technologically further than the imperium, and it's not far away.

While I like Tau (anything that's not wrapped up good in power armour), they'll never be the top dogs of the galaxy. They're held back in this regard by sheer short lifespans and no ability to travel through the warp. They've basically reached as far as they can go in their little empire. They need warp travel, but lack pyskers to do it.

IvanTih wrote:
(we have planet named Tesla which was full of new experimental weaponry,Codex:Tyranids 5th edition).

*had a planet named Tesla. It was invaded by Orks and then eaten by Tyranids.

I voted Necrons. I can't see the deceiver or nightbringer being outplayed in a game they already won.

But I honestly think chaos would be around for a long time. do you think the chaos gods would allow them to just simply die off? they need them because they feed off their emotions etc. and I think the dark gods would see any danger to their power/existence met with their full wrath.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:But I honestly think chaos would be around for a long time. do you think the chaos gods would allow them to just simply die off? they need them because they feed off their emotions etc. and I think the dark gods would see any danger to their power/existence met with their full wrath.

Chaos feeds off the emotions of everyone. What makes me curious about the Chaos gods, is, if the warp is timeless and immeasurable, then it's quite likely that they are present in other galaxies. There's no reason for the warp to be isolated to the Milky Way. As long as there are being with emotions similar to ours, then the Chaos gods would be present in that galaxy.

Which makes me think - since the Tyranids basically counteract the warp, and to not use it in any way at all like the species of this galaxy - like for travel (they use narvhals to slingshot themselves with a planets gravity or travel at sublight speeds), or psychic powers (they simply use telekinesis, and don't interact with the warp for this, or drive them with the focused thoughts of the hive mind), they could be a race that figured out how Chaos works, and evolved themselves to this point to simply rid the universe of Chaos. If there's no one left to feed them with their emotions, there would be no Chaos gods left.

-Loki- wrote:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:But I honestly think chaos would be around for a long time. do you think the chaos gods would allow them to just simply die off? they need them because they feed off their emotions etc. and I think the dark gods would see any danger to their power/existence met with their full wrath.

Chaos feeds off the emotions of everyone. What makes me curious about the Chaos gods, is, if the warp is timeless and immeasurable, then it's quite likely that they are present in other galaxies. There's no reason for the warp to be isolated to the Milky Way. As long as there are being with emotions similar to ours, then the Chaos gods would be present in that galaxy.

Which makes me think - since the Tyranids basically counteract the warp, and to not use it in any way at all like the species of this galaxy - like for travel (they use narvhals to slingshot themselves with a planets gravity or travel at sublight speeds), or psychic powers (they simply use telekinesis, and don't interact with the warp for this, or drive them with the focused thoughts of the hive mind), they could be a race that figured out how Chaos works, and evolved themselves to this point to simply rid the universe of Chaos. If there's no one left to feed them with their emotions, there would be no Chaos gods left.

I agree but I think its fair too say chaos gods draw a good amount of power from the billions of humans that worship or feed them. maybe they would force their hatred towards the tyranids attempting to lock them into a war with them. Khorne might enjoy jumping into close combat with a new foe. however murdering a "mindless" foe might not be that satisfying so maybe that would fuel his hatred for them even more? :|.

Slaanesh would prob have sex with them and use their toxic acid to get high off it lol.

Tzeench would prob use them against his own brothers by trying to control them to create more un ending plots.

Nurgle would have more mass to mutate and plague tyranids would adapt and thus nurgle would always have to create some new disease which he might love.

just my guesses

But they wouldn't get any emotions off the Tyranids, so the chaos gods might just burn themselves out, like a man dieing of thirst trying to drink salt water.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I agree but I think its fair too say chaos gods draw a good amount of power from the billions of humans that worship or feed them. maybe they would force their hatred towards the tyranids attempting to lock them into a war with them.

But the thing is, they can't. The Shadow in the Warp negates the warp. it blocks it, which is why races can't run from a hive fleet invading a system or get communication out. Chaos wouldn't be able to even manifest near them.

I voted Tau they have the whole young race tech super race and never admitting defeat thing like early humanity when the empoerer walked among men . I see the Eldar bagging the emporer they are sneaky enough to pull it off blow to blow

Im going to lay my bet on the orks, for in there codex it states that the Imperium sent out probes 15,000 years ago and to this day they are receiving faint transmissions of, guess what! Orks

-Loki- wrote:
Which makes me think - since the Tyranids basically counteract the warp, and to not use it in any way at all like the species of this galaxy - like for travel (they use narvhals to slingshot themselves with a planets gravity or travel at sublight speeds), or psychic powers (they simply use telekinesis, and don't interact with the warp for this, or drive them with the focused thoughts of the hive mind), they could be a race that figured out how Chaos works, and evolved themselves to this point to simply rid the universe of Chaos. If there's no one left to feed them with their emotions, there would be no Chaos gods left.

This is a common mis-conception based on the new Codex. The text you are thinking of states that the Tyranids do not use the Warp "in any fathomable way", which is very different to "do not use the Warp, full stop".

The Tyranids do interract with the Warp. Their psychic powers are still Warp-based. Their communication is Warp-based. Zoanthropes hurl Warp energy. It is simply... different... from anything native to this galaxy.

"Tyranids are not a Warp-based species" because of that quote is this season's "C'tan are instantly destroyed by the Warp" because of the internet taking and running with the word "anathema".

I think tyranids are very warp based, but not related to chaos. The hive mind is probably something like a warp deity, just not a chaos god like Gork n Mork and the eldar gods. So perhaps the hive mind can block the psychic shenanigans of those who draw power from other warp gods/sources.

In the case of invasion the hive mind overpowers the astronomicon (I think this is what happens). I guess if you think of the astronomicon and the hive mind as warp entities, then when the shadow of the warp is in effect its like the hive mind is having a psychic battle with the astronomicon, and winning.

asimo77 wrote:I think tyranids are very warp based, but not related to chaos. The hive mind is probably something like a warp deity, just not a chaos god like Gork n Mork and the eldar gods. So perhaps the hive mind can block the psychic shenanigans of those who draw power from other warp gods/sources.

In the case of invasion the hive mind overpowers the astronomicon (I think this is what happens). I guess if you think of the astronomicon and the hive mind as warp entities, then when the shadow of the warp is in effect its like the hive mind is having a psychic battle with the astronomicon, and winning.

Warp entity isn't quite the right phrase to use for the Hive Mind, but you're definitely on the right track here. The Hive Mind is a sentience that emerges from the collected communications and intelligences inside the Tyranid Synapse web.

The best analogy for it is amusingly enough drawn from Terminator 3 - the communication and integration between all the software across the internet becomes so deep and complicated that it comes "alive", just as "we" are actually just the result of the incredibly complex systems making up our bodies.

This is completely unlike the Chaos Gods, Gork & Mork etc though. Those Warp entities exist because the Warp is reflecting the emotional states of the psychic races native to this galaxy. The Hive Mind on the other hand isn't a reflection - it literally emerges from the Tyranids' collected minds. In that respect, the Tyranids are a lot more closely tied to the Warp than any other race in the setting, and you could make a very strong argument that the Tyranid super-organism straddles both this dimension and the Warp at the same time.

I think the last races standing would be the tyranids and necrons. Why? Because the necrons cant kill all the tyranids, and cause the tyranids can't eat the necrons.

Tyranids.

They come from ANOTHER Galaxy.

Just for the simple fact that if the Milky Way just imploded and everything in it died, Tyranids would still be alive somewhere else.

Tyranids, without a doubt.

They will consume the netire galaxy, and then find another one.

The Ctan will be left with no souls (or is it misery?) to devour, so will die.

The Chaos Gods will have no mortal emotions to substain themselves, so will also die.

Everyone else will be devoured.

I mean, if you want to go as fluff as written, even GW has said that Tyranids will be in the main rulebook, unless the races of the galaxy unite against them. Which we know won't happen.

I don't understand what you mean by that. All the races are in the main rulebook.

I think he meant is that they will be last ones standing in the rulebook.

I agree with the Tyranids winning and moving on to yet another galaxy.

Whether the Necrons will still be somewhat alive and kicking, I don't really know. But at least there will have had their revenge.

I'm pretty sure the Alpha Legion has already won, actually

Probably nids kill this universe, move on to the next, adn necrons stay.

Tyranids have to, ultimately, be the victors. For one, they possess the extraordinary ability to evolve at speeds before unimaginable. This means they can easily out-evolve any race in the galaxy, which has always been what deciding the fittest is. Y'know. Survival of the fittest.

Also, they can mass produce warriors and monsters with genetically bound fighting instincts and capabilities. This allows them to deploy troops at a more efficient rate than most other races, save perhaps for some Orks, by not having the need for rigorous or even simple training. They are born killing machines. See the word. Killing.

The tactics Tyranids use are obviously well thought up. Not necessarily thought OUT, but well thought up. Which brings me to another advantage. When a change of tactics is needed. No race can accomplish an interplanetary change of tactics in a matter of mere seconds, aside from the Tyranids. Which also brings me to yet another advantage.

The Hive mind. The calibration of an entire race's minds is possibly the largest advantage of all. Troops know exactly what to do and how to do it as soon as the Hive Mind decides it. Even when they're in completely different solar systems or even entire Segmentums. This allows for extreme coordination when executing plans or tactics. The Hive Mind also allows Tyranids to entrap the inhabitants of an area and cut them off from the rest of their people, biting out a chunk of the Galaxy.

They can also easily create armies of vast sizes by eating the life off a planet. They use that biological matter to increase their army size. The more they kill, the bigger they get.

Lastly, no one really knows how many Tyranids there are. There could be more fleets outside the galactic brim, larger than any encountered before. And with more dangerous species. Though mere speculation, this would just as well be only a mere helping hand, speeding the inevitable devouring of this galaxy.

The Great Devourer is upon us. It has begun to feed.

Let me take back what I said...

If the Tyranids are going to use the current codex, then there is no way they can win...

I thought the new codex made them more dynamic and adaptive rather than just throw nids at enemy, make new nids and throw them at the enemy.

Mr Nobody wrote:Oh god, I hate tau haters.

Tau's technology is advancing at an accelerated pace, one day, they will advance technologically further than the imperium, and it's not far away.

The biggest reason I dont think the Tau will win is there numbers, the Tau represent one of the many fledging Alien Empires dotted across the universe which the Imperium simply hasnt squashed yet. I also feel that their arrogance and naivety will be there downfall, their making deals with factions who they have no idea what their agenda is and they have the nerve to treat the older races like poor stupid children.

With that said Im a big Tau fan, they were my first army and I love the fluff. But I in no way think that they will come out on top in all of this, unless the Imperium suffers some terrible Fall like the Eldar Empire before them and the Tau move in, then it might be a different story.

I never meant it as a winning argument, merely a counter to someone else's overly negative comment.

Ailaros wrote:actually, another thing with the tyranid. They only consume, they never produce.

Human expansion is limited to the amount of food we can produce. Tyranid treat food like the western world treats oil. Tyranid show up, eat everything until it's a barren rock and then move on without planting new biomass to come by and harvest later. This means that Tyranid as a race will experience "peak biomass". After that point, the amount of biomass will go down as it becomes more scarce, making it impossible to sustain the same size of tyranid force. Eventually they will dwindle to numbers so low that they will be easily destroyable by the few human agri-world PDF's remaining. In the end, humans will outlast tyranid until they basically annihilate themselves, and humanity will finish the last few vestiges of them off.

If the Tyranid travel between galaxies and have finished off multiple galaxies before this one I highly doubt they do not know what to do in a food shortage situation. I would even go as far as saying if a tyranid is near death or is getting old (not sure if old age effects them or not) I can imagine the hive mind would have it turned to biomass by rippers for the creation of a new 'nid.

Tyrnaids recycle everything, making them extremely efficient as long as they keep momemtum.

And there is nothing to recycle if the Necrons decide to kill them.
Nids have a unknown number of fleets, but maybe the hints of their 'ships' age may be worth considering.
As I did not encounter any story with NEW tyranid vessels....
so they may suffer from casualties there like everyone else.

Hive ships can somtimes give birth to new ships, though losing a ship is still a heavy blow to Tyrnaids.

But Hive ships are the only 'shipyard' they have. Losing them = reproduction is zero.
Would like to ask for an example of a new Hive Ship. You know, the capital ones, not the easy to replace little critters.

There's some in depth fluff about how hive ships "calf". When they have enough bio-matter they divide in two.

1hadhq wrote:And there is nothing to recycle if the Necrons decide to kill them.

Necrons are made up of metal, which can be broken down into its raw minerals for use.

1hadhq wrote:Nids have a unknown number of fleets, but maybe the hints of their 'ships' age may be worth considering.

They cross the inter-galactic void. The war in heaven wouldn't have even started before they started crossing from whatever galaxy they came from. Even if they do age, what little time they spend consuming this galaxy would be minute compared to the time it takes to cross to another galaxy at sublight speeds. I don't think them dying of old age is ever a way to victory.

1hadhq wrote:As I did not encounter any story with NEW tyranid vessels....
so they may suffer from casualties there like everyone else.

Their ships are the same kind of organisms as everything else. If they couldn't be grown and replaced, the Tyranids would have been defeated long ago.

-Loki- wrote:


They cross the inter-galactic void. The war in heaven wouldn't have even started before they started crossing from whatever galaxy they came from. Even if they do age, what little time they spend consuming this galaxy would be minute compared to the time it takes to cross to another galaxy at sublight speeds. I don't think them dying of old age is ever a way to victory.

If they couldn't be grown and replaced, the Tyranids would have been defeated long ago.

I am not considering to suggest to hide until they die of age as a tactic, but one thing is common: these Hive ships are old. Not new.
So maybe it takes a lot of time to replace them? If so, opponnents with potent weapons and superior space drives could focus on the Hive Ships and
play this hit and run game until the nids lack production capacities to keep their major strength: respawning .
Fleet based reproduction is mobile, but not without drawbacks. Planet based production may be secured deeply underneath and safe from interruption.
A ship has full 3D attack vectors against it.

I think that War in Heaven possibly took place in the other galaxies because Necron Codex says that Old Ones inter-galactic network was disrupted.
So Necron for possible win.

extra galactic would be other galaxies. Inter galactic means within the milky way

asimo77 wrote:extra galactic would be other galaxies. Inter galactic means within the milky way

No,intra galactic means inside galaxy.

Oh my bad, though wouldn't extra-galactic be other galaxies not inter/intra?