34644
Post by: Mr Nobody
Seeing that two of my codexes are at the bottom too, maybe some codexes just seem more attractive to different personalities.
13220
Post by: Commisar Wolfie
That is prolly true. Not every one wants to play the same things thank goodness. Can you imagine how boring the game would be then.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Just keep this in mind: it's a numbered list. Something has to be number twelve. Something has to be number eight. Etc. I'll post the next one later.
31272
Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer
Looking forward to the next rank.
(And the two new pages of jargon each time I check back  )
19965
Post by: Lord Harrab
battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Looking forward to the next rank.
(And the two new pages of jargon each time I check back )
Agreed, its seems to be Melissia posts her opinion, everyone discusses and then make predictions just in time for the next one.
Personally I'm curious to see how the IG stand up under her eye.
33774
Post by: tgf
Edited by moderator Manchu. Good writing but trolling is not allowed on Dakka.
I rank SoB Codex worst. They are clichéd.
19965
Post by: Lord Harrab
tgf wrote:Edited by moderator Manchu. Good writing but trolling is not allowed on Dakka.
I rank SoB Codex worst. They are clichéd.
EDIT: ah, quick work by the mods there. Thank you Manchu.
16387
Post by: Manchu
Lord Harrab wrote:Agreed, its seems to be Melissia posts her opinion, everyone discusses and then make predictions just in time for the next one.
That's generally how these ranking threads go. They're currently all the rage here in 40k General Discussions. Credit to Just Dave. Or whoever did it before him.
19965
Post by: Lord Harrab
Manchu wrote:Lord Harrab wrote:Agreed, its seems to be Melissia posts her opinion, everyone discusses and then make predictions just in time for the next one.
That's generally how these ranking threads go. They're currently all the rage here in 40k General Discussions. Credit to Just Dave. Or whoever did it before him.
I still think they're an interesting read regardless of who started them.
16387
Post by: Manchu
Agreed. They seem to produce some good discussion.
33774
Post by: tgf
tgf wrote:Edited by moderator Manchu. Good writing but trolling is not allowed on Dakka.
I rank SoB Codex worst. They are clichéd.
:( I go hungry.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
One thing I like about them is that they give you perspective into why people think the way they do.
When Melissia says in other threads that she thinks Necrons are lame, I'll know exactly why! I think it adds depth to the discussion.
Dammit, am I going to have to make one now?
16387
Post by: Manchu
@Monster Rain: You don't have time! So . . . do it anyway. Maybe a "Rank the Second Founding and Later Chapters" thread? Just make sure you put up a list of those you'll be ranking, otherwise we'll be there for a while.
Melissa does make a good point, however. In these lists something HAS to be #X. They don't always do their subjects justice . . . hence the discussion!
11892
Post by: Shadowbrand
The mod's are putting the hammer down on trolls!?
Quickly get Cheese Elemental and Gwar to my Canadian arctic base!
33935
Post by: TheAngelKing47
Well if the fluff is the majority of the result in judging I suppose I have the agree quite a bit. The CSM fluff is majorly lacking and a little stale. Failbaddon isn't exactly the guy you want to line up and follow. I think each god really needs a worthy leader of sorts, I suppose that's what they have now ish. But a new warmaster would be nice. Maybe keep Abaddon so people that run him don't lose their whole set up but it would be nice for a more competent evil chaos baddie and some new fluff rather than continuing the whole post heresy thing.
16387
Post by: Manchu
Aaron Dembski-Bowden seems to riff off of that stale Failbaddon joke in Soulhunter. But I don't think Cadia is currently winning, either.
23115
Post by: OoieGoie
Ordo Dakka wrote: Have you read Path of the Warrior? It was bloody brilliant, and the first Xenos book that succeeded in capturing how interesting things OTHER than humans can be.
I did. Like all addictions, I need more though. 
Next ranking plzzz !! Everyone is going off topic. 
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Ordo Dakka wrote:I really enjoy Warmachine stuff at the moment, I haven't experienced any sort of steampunk fiction before though so that may be why.
Any suggestions?
The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling.
978-0575600294
34276
Post by: Aniketos
Very interesting thread, gonna follow this one (mainly so I don't have to go looking for the darned thing).
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I await the next ranking with some interest - there's only so much I can say about the previous ones before I end up repeating myself.
15380
Post by: templeorks
I think the top 4 will be IG, Orks, DH, DOC.
33829
Post by: Librius Machina
TheAngelKing47 wrote:Well if the fluff is the majority of the result in judging I suppose I have the agree quite a bit. The CSM fluff is majorly lacking and a little stale. Failbaddon isn't exactly the guy you want to line up and follow. I think each god really needs a worthy leader of sorts, I suppose that's what they have now ish. But a new warmaster would be nice. Maybe keep Abaddon so people that run him don't lose their whole set up but it would be nice for a more competent evil chaos baddie and some new fluff rather than continuing the whole post heresy thing.
I wish they would bring out some of the deamon primarchs. Some of them pose much better baddies with a more personal reason to hate the Emperor. Make them reasonable. Like exceptional space marines rather than demigods. I much perferred them that way.
15680
Post by: Ediin
Librius Machina wrote:TheAngelKing47 wrote:Well if the fluff is the majority of the result in judging I suppose I have the agree quite a bit. The CSM fluff is majorly lacking and a little stale. Failbaddon isn't exactly the guy you want to line up and follow. I think each god really needs a worthy leader of sorts, I suppose that's what they have now ish. But a new warmaster would be nice. Maybe keep Abaddon so people that run him don't lose their whole set up but it would be nice for a more competent evil chaos baddie and some new fluff rather than continuing the whole post heresy thing.
I wish they would bring out some of the deamon primarchs. Some of them pose much better baddies with a more personal reason to hate the Emperor. Make them reasonable. Like exceptional space marines rather than demigods. I much perferred them that way.
+1.
Oh, how I cursed when I heard that GW had finally printed rules for a Daemon Primarch in IA: Apocalypse, only to find out that it was the lamest of Primarchs, Angron the Very Angry(and angry).
29408
Post by: Melissia
I'm sick right now! Papa Nurgle paid a visit and ate some of my pasta. He said it was good pasta, so he gave me a parting gift. And I don't mean the fart he left at the door, that took hours to ventilate out of the house, that was just his way of saying hello and goodbye. He was a nice guy, but I had to get him to wear a shirt because his pustules kept popping and it was a real mess to clean up. And I made sure he left his swarm of flies back outside the house, we don't have any room for insects in this house. Nurgle understands, and so he let them feed on our lawn instead. Which sucks, but hey, better htan having them iin the house. Poor dogs will probably be sick for a week, too, but I don't like dogs anyway.
Oh, and I'm halfway done with the next one. Kinda hitting writer's block, so I might just finish this paragraph and type a summary and post it.
15680
Post by: Ediin
Tell Papa I said hi.
And BA are next. I hope.
12893
Post by: evilsponge
I wanted to read the rest but it looks like they're spread out through 11 pages of posts so looks like I'm done. I did enjoy the ones on the first page though
29408
Post by: Melissia
lol, I'll get to work finding them and editing them on the first post... just woke up after trying to sleep off whatever it is I've caught.
27391
Post by: purplefood
Urgh seasonal illness. Always get a head cold which messes up my balace so i keep falling over. Hurts a lot.
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Post by: Melissia
There, quoted them and edited them in the first post.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:There, quoted them and edited them in the first post.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
29408
Post by: Melissia
10: DARK ELDAR
As said before, for me to really like bad guys and want to play them requires that they be well written . I'm not so sure Dark Eldar are. But they DO have vastly improved rules and models over their previous incarnation, and heck, even the previous incarnation was probably the most competitive of the third edition codices at the start of fifth edition. It just took more finesse than most codices-- but since it's an Eldar codex, that's expected of it anyway so that's hardly a criticism.
The fluff doesn't really present them to be a huge galactic threat-- they suffer just like the Tau in that regard, only unlike the Tau they don't seem to be intending to expand much. Maybe the fifth edition codex will change that, maybe they'll be more awesome then. But until then, they're kinda stuck in the limbo of evil ninja pirate bondage elves. In space. Which is actually pretty awesome. Dark Eldar make for very interesting enemies, but they suffer much like most of the third edition codices in that they just don't have all that much fluff, which means they don't have that much for me to judge from, and less characterization than they deserve. That which is there isn't all that impressive, though, for aforementioned reasons.
Their playstyle, however, redeems all of that, as do their new models (those two-handed swords are just badass, and Lelith is a great female model and hopefully a sign of things to come for future female models). They're actually DIFFERENT from other armies, which is more than I can say for the many MEQ armies which are basically "like C: SM, but...". Fast, fragile, and hard hitting, with plenty of fun special rules, they're quite interesting on the tabletop even if they lack a bit in the lore.
It's a bit unfair rating Dark Eldar right now, what with a new codex coming out in a month, but hey, I don't feel like waiting a month to finish this. Suffice it to say, Dark Eldar are cool enemies. And if the codex doesn't suck, and has a good amount of well-written fluff, then I might even be tempted to collect a small army.
34515
Post by: Wiglaf
Indeed, is very unfair. At least you could have used the cover of the last codex.... I hope this one will be just provisional. 
29408
Post by: Melissia
No, I don't intend to go back and change this later.
23115
Post by: OoieGoie
Not much fluff on DE thats for sure. Some fluff on when they turned to 'the dark side' and after that they eat soals and do their nasty stuff. Its a little hard to make fluff on characters that just want to kill, kill, kill.
Personally I believe the dark eldar are one of those armies you dont' collect over fluff, but off the look and play-style. Its why I play norm Eldar afterall and works fine for me.
If the Codex Dark Eldar was to be better, hopefully they put in lots of info on characters. Also fluff on things they have done after The Fall. Maybe various battle history with other races etc.
34515
Post by: Wiglaf
Shame on you.
32955
Post by: Coolyo294
I found the dark elder codex hidden in my game store's bathroom, and it is very good.
34515
Post by: Wiglaf
coolyo294 wrote:I found the dark elder codex hidden in my game store's bathroom
Is this intended as a hint? like the book only worth to be readed while you´re sitting there.
However, I agree. They didn´t put precissely lot of effort to transmit the stylish evilness that already existed in the fantasy dark elves. But despiting that, its not their current fluff which I love but the whole concept of the race and all their possibilities regarding stories about how their society work.
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Post by: asimo77
I'm actually trying to reconcile the deldar fluff with the awesomeness of the models. Fluff usually comes first for me but I just had to have these guys. Cool rules and cooler models.
IMO the pure hedonist archetype is not only the most boring but most morally repulsive of all character/race types. Same goes for the survival of the fittest/social darwinism/might-makes-right types.
So I've been trying to come up with some interesting background for my soon to be kabal without deviating from EVUHL SPESS EHLFS!!11 I'd like to throw out what I've got cooked up but I don't want to butt into the thread.
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Post by: Melissia
I really wish people would stop saying "deldar" because when I sound it phoenetically in my mind it sounds a single consonant away from "dildo"
16387
Post by: Manchu
To be fair, the current dex has very little fluff. I don't know how anyone who hasn't read the new book can really judge their upcoming fluff (assuming GW actually sharpens their origins and cultural details).
32987
Post by: Draggoon
Melissia wrote:I really wish people would stop saying "deldar" because when I sound it phoenetically in my mind it sounds a single consonant away from "dildo"
lol... I honestly don't know why people can't decide between DE and Dark Eldar, instead there seems to be necessity to make only one smaller, it's the 40k forum, people know which DE is being mentioned.
and Nice work so far!
added:
I can't justify this in its own post, but just for Monster, and asimo77...
A place just for people who need a laugh
32190
Post by: asimo77
Well I'm sure dark eldar have plenty of dildos lying around so it fits.
DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDARDELDAR DELDAR DELDAR DELDAR
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Call me immature, but any time the word dildo comes up in conversation I can't help but chuckle.
32190
Post by: asimo77
I think my kabal's new motto is "If it doesn't fit, you make it fit!"
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
asimo77 wrote:IMO the pure hedonist archetype is not only the most boring but most morally repulsive of all character/race types. Same goes for the survival of the fittest/social darwinism/might-makes-right types.
So I've been trying to come up with some interesting background for my soon to be kabal without deviating from EVUHL SPESS EHLFS!!11 I'd like to throw out what I've got cooked up but I don't want to butt into the thread.
How about the survival of the Eldar types? A kabal doing its bit to return the Eldar to their rightful place in the galaxy. If you're going to use wracks and grotesques, create them exclusively from lesser races like the orks and humans instead of unlucky dark eldar citizens.
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Post by: asimo77
I was thinking something like that though I really don't like the haemoniculus themed units. Here's what I got: since eating a soul has to be an insane mental battle of dominace, two wills wrestling with each other until one is consumed, its sadomasochistic to devour souls, just mentally sadomasochistic not physically.
So my dark eldar believe by consuming the souls of great beings thy have shown the strength of their will (and the weakness of others) and thus their right to inherit the galaxy. So they hunt for great heroes to consume.
I know this sounds like the stuff I was complaining about but I guess the only thing I absolutley cannot stand is the pure hedonism/physical sensation/feels good man junk.
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I've never really found the Dark Eldar appealing, for a very strange reason. Their fluff kind of makes them out to be very arrogant and headstrong, which of course fits them perfectly. However, I end up disliking that, as it grates on me greatly when I'm reading about them. Admittedly, they are supposed to be like that; the problem with pre-Fall Eldar was their pride, after all. It's just that they become too much the bad guy in my mind.
Ironic, perhaps, given my fondness for CSM, but to be fair I get a different vibe from them when I read about them.
32190
Post by: asimo77
DE as they stand don't leave much room for unique backgrounds other than pleasure/pain cults and the like. I used to think CSM were only skulls n spikes but after reading up on them they're a pretty diverse bunch. So if you're creative enough you can make some good and believeable fluff for a custom CSM group.
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Post by: sniperjolly
So, you are saying that you like the army's rules and models, but cant stand the fluff or feel and seek to compleately re-write it so that they are noble warriors as opposed to immoral party fiends?
Yet, Slannesh and Crons are upstanding gentlemen in your book?
Eh, it seems like you needed a step-ladder to get on the bandwagon, but whatever floats your boat.
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Post by: asimo77
Where did you get them being noble warriors? They try to justify murdering people and stealing their souls through extreme arrogance. Also I never said evil was uninteresting, just pure hedonists.
The custom CSM fluff I came up with is a little more involved and I don't care to go over it in its entirety. They are more based on the idea of hypocrisy than anything else, the slaanesh stuff is really just the aesthetics.
And even then its not sex, drugs, rock n roll, its like pre-heresy emp's children. Obsessed with perfection and such. I used a bunch of DA bits so they have robes, angel imagery, reliquaries, etc. more gothic than tentacles and giant penises.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
sniperjolly wrote:So, you are saying that you like the army's rules and models, but cant stand the fluff or feel and seek to compleately re-write it so that they are noble warriors as opposed to immoral party fiends?
Yet, Slannesh and Crons are upstanding gentlemen in your book?
Eh, it seems like you needed a step-ladder to get on the bandwagon, but whatever floats your boat.
Wait, what?
If you're addressing me here, then I've stated my reasons. I never said I found CSM less evil, they're just a different kind of evil, one that appeals to me more. I couldn't care less about "noble warriors," that's what we have the SM for.
If you're talking about Asimo77, then he too has stated pretty good reasons why he personally dislikes them, and again I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah, no damn clue where you got that from, sniperdude.
23115
Post by: OoieGoie
With the new codex, do DE still eat souls? If so, how do you eat a soul? Im guessing a knife and fork are not required?
32940
Post by: Araenion
They gots them pyramid like thingies that make their physically-challenged Archons hit like Battlewagons.
29408
Post by: Melissia
OoieGoie wrote:With the new codex, do DE still eat souls? If so, how do you eat a soul? Im guessing a knife and fork are not required?
It's a psychic thing.
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Although some ketchup/brown sauce helps them go down smoother.
25139
Post by: micahaphone
I've got some great soul recipes, each one takes 30 min or less! And they taste just as good as the ones that take all day to simmer!
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
If souls taste anything like Soul Food, I'm going to jump that bandwagon pretty fast.
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Come to think of it, I am pretty hungry right now.
Anyway, so yeah, I have to agree with the ranking of Dark Eldar in this list.
Now, to the kitchen!
25139
Post by: micahaphone
Monster Rain wrote:If souls taste anything like Soul Food, I'm going to jump that bandwagon pretty fast.
You gotta pace yourself man, Fried souls go straight to your anti-thighs.
19965
Post by: Lord Harrab
micahaphone wrote:Monster Rain wrote:If souls taste anything like Soul Food, I'm going to jump that bandwagon pretty fast.
You gotta pace yourself man, Fried souls go straight to your anti-thighs.
Although the Dark Eldar don't seem to have that problem. Must be their exercise regime.
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Hey, constant torture is great for burning off those extra calories!
33661
Post by: Mad4Minis
Melissia wrote:I really wish people would stop saying "deldar" because when I sound it phoenetically in my mind it sounds a single consonant away from "dildo"
The mind hears (reads) what it wants to hear (read)....
27564
Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Well, given we're discussing Dark Eldar here...
Just saying, that army has some, ahem, connotations that go with it. Bad connotations that involve barbs, whips and systematic skinning.
18364
Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
I now consider myself disturbed.
And I cannot honestly believe that was my 2000th post.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Mad4Minis wrote:The mind hears (reads) what it wants to hear (read)....
So you're saying I want to hear the Dark Eldar insulted?
How unkind.
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Post by: OoieGoie
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Well, given we're discussing Dark Eldar here...
Just saying, that army has some, ahem, connotations that go with it. Bad connotations that involve barbs, whips and systematic skinning.
Create a half naked (dark) elf with a sword and the teenagers buy it up. Why GW didnt see this earlier I don't know? 
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Post by: purplefood
Melissia wrote:Mad4Minis wrote:The mind hears (reads) what it wants to hear (read)....
So you're saying I want to hear the Dark Eldar insulted?
How unkind.
I think he's implying something else...
29408
Post by: Melissia
I know, and I completely and utterly ignored said innuendo.
27391
Post by: purplefood
Melissia wrote:I know, and I completely and utterly ignored said innuendo.
Which is good of course.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
OoieGoie wrote:Create a half naked (dark) elf with a sword and the teenagers buy it up. Why GW didnt see this earlier I don't know?
Because nobody except for Wargames Factory has shown any official interest in becoming the first manufacturer to release an plastic sprue of just female models? If GW would just release a box of plastic Juan Diaz Witch Elves, they'd sell like hotcakes.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
Space Wolves are in the top 10!!!!
17213
Post by: gendoikari87
AlexHolker wrote:OoieGoie wrote:Create a half naked (dark) elf with a sword and the teenagers buy it up. Why GW didnt see this earlier I don't know?
Because nobody except for Wargames Factory has shown any official interest in becoming the first manufacturer to release an plastic sprue of just female models? If GW would just release a box of plastic Juan Diaz Witch Elves, they'd sell like hotcakes.
heck I'd settle for some female cadians, fully clothed and non provocative just to have some diversity, as it stands the imperial guard is highly sexist and a sausage fest.
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Post by: LordWaffles
Ailaros wrote:That the CSM codex is behaving like a 10 year old codex all of 3 years into its existence shows how really poorly it was done.
Basically, the current version of CSM is SM, except they have way fewer options and everything is more expensive. I recently played a couple of games with a person who ran beautiful CSM models, but played with the space wolves codex. I was surprised by the number of random comments I got from people saying that they knew someone personally who was playing their old CSM army with a light-side codex until a new CSM codex comes out.
I'm currently doing the same thing but my Alpha Legion are represented as templar. It's not a perfect fit but the cultists are now neophytes and chaos marines are initiates so it kinda works.
I got my hands on a couple of those plague tower fireballs, once I rig a marine holding on while riding it with a chain I got myself some thunderwolf cav and will upgrade to wolves.
But having read the original review of chaos marines...I don't believe you've read a single positive thing about chaos marines. The current fluff makes them out to be goofy 2-d shooting targets that die by the thousand because they're just too damn evil to not acting like god damned lemmings. I'd highly recommend reading some of Dan Abnett's works as he fleshes out the chaos marines to have internal conflicts and to be super-powered people under extreme circumstances, and with that in mind they make logistical decisions regarding the betrayal.(And in the ten thousand years since they may have gone a little insane. Just a tad.)
This edition's codex is garbage. It's just complete trash. If I was to show up and place at a tournament I can only bring one list with very minor difference(Warptime, mon instead of lash). It's powerful and it has two good troop options(Plague/zerk) but it's the least fun to play because it always plays the same, no variety, no differences, no options. It's boring as hell. And thirty percent of that pos pamplet of naughty marines is done with the stupid "Build a marine" off the damn GW website.
28235
Post by: Necroman
gendoikari87 wrote:heck I'd settle for some female cadians, fully clothed and non provocative just to have some diversity, as it stands the imperial guard is highly sexist and a sausage fest.
Female Catachans would probably be the best place to start, considering their typical skill in sculpting women...
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:I know, and I completely and utterly ignored said innuendo.
You're no fun.
23115
Post by: OoieGoie
gendoikari87 wrote: heck I'd settle for some female cadians, fully clothed and non provocative just to have some diversity, as it stands the imperial guard is highly sexist and a sausage fest.
You got a point. I cant even see my female eldar faces (full armour suits) and I still want more of em. Mind you, the males seem to have the same body shape except for the chest area. 
17213
Post by: gendoikari87
Necroman wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:heck I'd settle for some female cadians, fully clothed and non provocative just to have some diversity, as it stands the imperial guard is highly sexist and a sausage fest.
Female Catachans would probably be the best place to start, considering their typical skill in sculpting women...
I thought catachans grew out the decaying remains of sylvester stalone, like fungus, and grew now with water, but the blood of their enemies, and were fuled by pure testosterone which being poisonous to females made catachan women near non existent.
or at least that's why i figured they left women out of the catachanian boxes. I could be wrong though, GW could just be sexist and think of women only as hot sexy and there to be scantily clad to sell figures. but I dont think gw would do that now would they? NAAAAAAAHHHHH
29408
Post by: Melissia
Given that, when they DID make an all-female army (which was supposed to be an army of pure and saintly religious warriors to boot), they just HAD to toss in garter belts and corsets over the armor, because Emperor forbid female models not show their underwear. LordWaffles wrote:This edition's codex is garbage.
The CSM codex is better than over half the codices out at the moment.
28235
Post by: Necroman
Hmm... I'm guessing next is gonna be Craftworld Eldar or Blood Angels.
I'm probably wrong, though.
LordWaffles wrote: This edition's codex is garbage. It's just complete trash.
Ahem. Phase out, 5th edition glancing rules.
29680
Post by: SaintHazard
Melissia wrote:Given that, when they DID make an all-female army (which was supposed to be an army of pure and saintly religious warriors to boot), they just HAD to toss in garter belts and corsets over the armor, because Emperor forbid female models not show their underwear.
I had the exact same thought when I saw Sisters for the first time. Years ago, in Dawn of War (before I played the tabletop game). Couldn't help but think, "These are basically militant nuns, right? So what's with the boob-armor?"
I'd personally envision space battle nuns as more Joan d'Arc and less Pinup Girl.
Hopefully, given the excellent job they did with Lelith Hesperax, the Sisters' next model line will rectify this - though, obviously more modestly clothed than Lelith.
17213
Post by: gendoikari87
SaintHazard wrote:Melissia wrote:Given that, when they DID make an all-female army (which was supposed to be an army of pure and saintly religious warriors to boot), they just HAD to toss in garter belts and corsets over the armor, because Emperor forbid female models not show their underwear.
I had the exact same thought when I saw Sisters for the first time. Years ago, in Dawn of War (before I played the tabletop game). Couldn't help but think, "These are basically militant nuns, right? So what's with the boob-armor?"
I'd personally envision space battle nuns as more Joan d'Arc and less Pinup Girl.
Hopefully, given the excellent job they did with Lelith Hesperax, the Sisters' next model line will rectify this - though, obviously more modestly clothed than Lelith.
well to be fair there was one hobbyist that did make some female cadians a while back here on dakka, and did a wonderful, non sexist job on them. I really wanted some but he was charging like $40 for a squad. Granted I'm the first one to like the scantily clad figures but the SOB it just seems wrong on some level to me, so I second the joan of arc comment. I mean when was the last time you saw a US marine running around in tight leather pants with his shirt off, or for that matter when did you see a 40k male modeled to suit female tastes, is a little realism or equailty really that much to ask for? save the censurable stuff for slannesh, thats what hes around for isnt it?
16387
Post by: Manchu
When you're only dealing with a 28mm canvas, some exageration becomes necesary to convey and distinguish character.
29680
Post by: SaintHazard
Manchu wrote:When you're only dealing with a 28mm canvas, some exageration becomes necesary to convey and distinguish character.
Lelith Hesperax, with her taped-down breasts, begs to differ.
16387
Post by: Manchu
And if 40k is ever made into a (serious) movie, Lelith will be played by Hillary Swank. Just saying.
18698
Post by: kronk
Melissia wrote:[center][b][u][color=EEAA22]
The fluff doesn't really present them to be a huge galactic threat-- they suffer just like the Tau in that regard, only unlike the Tau they don't seem to be intending to expand much.
I don't think they're supposed to expand and conquer, really. That's not their purpose/goal. They want to hit something hard, take its resources, then go hit something else. I see them as independent forces. Do they have a home world? Or do they just hit something weak then fade away. That's what makes them scary. If you live on the perifery of the empire, the threat of having these guys show up, kill off the men-folk, take the women and children as slaves, take your crops, and burn everything else before the Imperium shows up would keep you up at night.
I like this thread. Fun read. 
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Post by: Perkustin
I am either being intelligent here or unintentionally perpetuating 28mm sexism but here we go.
On the topic of raunchy SoB models i believe there are various reasons why it is a necessary evil to present them in such a way. first of all there are the obvious artistic reasons, when sculpting 28mm figures some artisitc exaggeration is required otherwise they look like effeminate men with ill fitting armour, this also fits into the masculine/feminine ideals in art, there must be differences between the two that speak on a base level to the viewer. Since body language is not an option in miniature/canvas certain 'concessions' to male fantasies must be made. Continuing this idea is the fact that a large proportion of GW enthusiasts are (teenage) males that have the aforementioned 'expectations'. Moving on to fluff, as you will, no doubt, know the SoB were begat with the 'Brides of the Emperor' the personal bodyguard of the deviant Goge Vandire. It is heavily inferred that as well as functioning as his private army they also served as his Harem, this partly explains the sexualised armour, as no doubt Vandire possesed unusual fetishes. As for the SoB's continued use of 'impractical' Powered Armour this i believe is a punishment, forever they must bear the stigma of being the Brides of Vandire the traitor.
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Furthering the argument of artistic exaggeration, all the men's faces look the same, everyone has the same giant, square jaw.
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Post by: Manchu
I really don't get why anyone thinks the Sisters look so raunchy in the first place.
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Post by: Guitardian
That is understandable for Astartes though, seeing as how they all have the same genes as each other after augmentation. Also, for guardsmen I can see a bit of variety in Catachans, but not much in Cadians other than what expression they have.
They are meant to be rank and file grunts with matching crew cuts anyways, and the face is only about 1/8" wide, mostly surrounded by helmet. How much character do you need in there? When I did my Guardsmen I found that just subtle difference randomly created by where the wash I used would pool up, or the unique nuance of drybrushing abstraction made all their faces look different, lighter, darker, some features more or less prominent, some with what looked like sunken eyes or pouty lips, etc others with prominent cheekbokes or facial stubble 5-o-clock-shadow just by chance.
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Post by: Perkustin
Yeah the SoB should count themselves Lucky that they dont have to wear 'boob tube' cuirasses that leave their toned abdomens exposed to the elements/stares of male combatants. I would say that GW is by no means the worst offender and even a good example such as the Female Spartan in Halo: Reach has what i would posit is *ahem* a 'Nice butt' or the way Commander Shephard's N7 Ceramic/carbide weave catsuit hangs lovingly round her shapely Hips [Lusty Ork emoticon]. Oh dear i don't believe i am painting myself in a good light here. On a more on topic note i think the biggest crime GW has committed recently is the Space wolves/Blood Angels double bill they should have at least bookended a Non SM codex Release. Also Imp. Guard should be somewhere near the top, great codex IMO.
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Post by: Monster Rain
"Raunchy" is a pretty strong word. Armor with extra room for breasts isn't exactly pornographic.
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Post by: SaintHazard
But it IS both unrealistic and unnecessary. Nuns do not look like that. Warrior nuns who spend every minute of their free time practicing killing people, even less so. They'd be thoroughly ripped, scarred up and rather ugly, and have fairly small breasts, like most fit, muscular women. What they DID have would likely be taped down, and would be even less apparent. The booby armor just smacks of the ridiculous Fantasy Breasts that every single female character in every single science fiction and fantasy setting has suffered from for the last fifty years.
But again, Lelith Hesperax's new model is a spectacular example of a departure from the need for pubescent boys to fondle their miniatures while "fondling their miniatures." I hope the new Sisters models emulate a similar attitude.
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Post by: Perkustin
The 'fondling miniatures' comment was pretty ROFL, bon mot sir! I put it to you that the sisters may well be scarred unfeminine lumps underneath their armour, but their aforementioned stigma of being the Brides of the Emperor and the intention of beguiling their foes means their armour depicts a raunchy (i think i may have created this forum's buzzword haha) exaggerated form.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Perkustin wrote:The 'fondling miniatures' comment was pretty ROFL, bon mot sir! I put it to you that the sisters may well be scarred unfeminine lumps underneath their armour, but their aforementioned stigma of being the Brides of the Emperor and the intention of beguiling their foes means their armour depicts a raunchy (i think i may have created this forum's buzzword haha) exaggerated form.
And that's a fair point, but I'd rather see boobless battle-scarred Sisters than buxom pinup-girl Sisters. The former just feels more 40k to me.
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Post by: Monster Rain
SaintHazard wrote:But it IS both unrealistic and unnecessary.
Realism is very important in a game where genetically engineered warrior monks fight violent fungi and magical space elves, I totally agree. 
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Post by: gendoikari87
Manchu wrote:I really don't get why anyone thinks the Sisters look so raunchy in the first place.
Because if the armor was any more form fitting it'd have nipples on it.
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Post by: Manchu
SaintHazard wrote:And that's a fair point, but I'd rather see boobless battle-scarred Sisters than buxom pinup-girl Sisters. The former just feels more 40k to me.
Have you ever seen a SoB's face? The chest is the only way you can tell it's a chick. Frankly, the same could be said of Lelith. Also, there is a difference between having large breasts and having a large breastplate. A fluffy explanation might be that the Eccelsiarchy wanted to stress that it really doesn't maintain any men under arms. I seriously doubt that Sisters are all as stacked as their armor indicates. Furthermore, the argument that "real nuns don't dress like that" is absurd. Automatically Appended Next Post: gendoikari87 wrote:Manchu wrote:I really don't get why anyone thinks the Sisters look so raunchy in the first place.
Because if the armor was any more form fitting it'd have nipples on it.
Reading this, it's hard to believe that you've ever seen licensed SoB artwork or the actuals minis.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Manchu wrote:Furthermore, the argument that "real nuns don't dress like that" is absurd.
You're right, these ladies are dressed like total sluts.
Manchu wrote:Reading this, it's hard to believe that you've ever seen licensed SoB artwork or the actuals minis.
How is this not the very definition of form-fitting?
Allow me to spoil it for you: "form-fitting" means it fits her form. Oh look, there's the armor, doing exactly that.
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Post by: Manchu
To stymie the ongoing derail of this thread, I opened the following thread on the issue of Sisters of Battle armor design: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/323205.page
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Post by: gendoikari87
Seriously, no more discussion of SoB until M gets around to ranking them. Discuss it in the other thread. Gendoikar, I have reposted your thoughts there.
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Post by: Melissia
Okay, my sickness has lessened a bit, though I hope it didn't hurt my grade in my practicum. Regardless, I'll work on the next post after eating lunch.
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Post by: SaintHazard
The mods. A hivemind of great success.
Both of the Sisters threads got locked by different mods, because another thread existed.
Well done, reds8n and Manchu. Well done indeed.
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Post by: Manchu
Thought you could use a laugh today, Saint Hazard. This thread is now re-opened: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323197.page#2035745 And to be fair, reds8n didn't make a mistake.
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Post by: Perkustin
Whoops, oh dear my first proper thread Nuked, by a superior version and the MODs. I am surprised the Tau and Tyranids fair so poorly, on reading them i took them to be robust and powerful lists, perhaps a little on the technical side rather than narrative admittedly.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Perkustin wrote:Whoops, oh dear my first proper thread Nuked, by a superior version and the MODs. I am surprised the Tau and Tyranids fair so poorly, on reading them i took them to be robust and powerful lists, perhaps a little on the technical side rather than narrative admittedly.
That's kind of how I felt about Tau as well, and I'd be forced to rank them fairly low in strength of fluff. That is to say, they just don't have a whole lot of it.
Hopefully 5e will fix this.
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Post by: Element206
You have provided a great, opinionated bias of each codex. I like that mention both pros and cons concerning each. Well written and gives the reader or average newb things to ponder
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Edited by Manchu. To re-clarify, discussion of SoB armor design (etc) goes here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323197.page
Thanks!
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Post by: Melissia
9: DAEMONHUNTERS
I like Daemonhunters. I really do! They're the Marine army that I've most seriously considered starting. They have awesome, highly detailed models, they're complete badasses without going overboard into stupidity (like the other Marine codices). When the Grey Knights appear from their teleportation, the battlefield trembles in fear for THEY have come, and only death awaits their enemies. Sworn to protect humanity from the nastiest of the nasty-- the foul infestations of chaos daemons which threaten to swallow entire worlds into the warp-- they do so with a stoic bravery that just feels lacking in other Marines, whom often fight out of rage, or pride, or simple joy in fighting, or wanting to leave their mark on history. The Grey Knights fight knowing they will not be remembered for what they do. They fight-- and win-- because they must, for the sake of all humanity.
And it is awesome. Where I feel the majority of Marine fluff fails, the lore of the Grey Knights succeeds.
But let's face it, their codex sucks. I mean Necron level of suck. There's very few options-- hell, not even a single fast attack option, just an option for "you can deep strike your troops choice as a fast attack unit, but they can't score anymore". The only reason they're not down there next to Necrons despite having an equally bad codex, competition-wise, is because their fluff is awesome. Their limited options are limited even further because a few of their choices are very weak, and this is due to more than just the age of the codex... they weren't necessarily all that powerful even back when they were created. The units that ARE good are hampered by the fact that they need support from the units which aren't. Winning with a purist Grey Knights army is difficult to say the least, and adding in Inquisitorial Stormtroopers dramatically increases their overall kill points while reducing their overall survivability. They have few upgrade options, and the ones that are there don't really cover their weaknesses very well.
Perhaps because of this, their codex is scheduled to go after Dark Eldar. To wax poetic, I look towards spring in far more ways than one. May the new codex be as awesome as all of the fifth edition codices have been thus far.
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Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
See, I've never liked the Daemonhunters for the 'super-man' feel the Grey Knights have. I don't know, I guess I just like flaws. You make a lot of good points though.
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Post by: Lord Harrab
Agree completely about the deamon hunters, their "we don't need to be remembered or honored just victorious." outlook is incredibly badass and rather like the old knights in stores, the ones who'll ride in, kill the monster, rescue the damsel and then leave without bothering with the reward.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Agree completely with your assessment of the Grey Knights. It's why I started a Grey Knight army (entirely converted though it is) of my own.
However, I never expect to win with them!
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Post by: Lord Harrab
A point I feel i should make in regards to the grey knights being sucky, is that back when they where released allies where a perfectly viable strategy, and you could boost your imperial force with a small amount of these elite warriors and have their shortcomings covered by the strengths of the other codex.
But now that the core game has moved on, and now most people i play wont let me take Allies, simply because they don't want me to have that strength (Although they claim its because the rules don't support it) even though i have a perfectly fluffily reason for having them.
To clarify, i agree that pure deamon hunter forces are weak and were so back when they were released, but they were incredible when taken as support in other forces.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I find that Grey Knights look awesome but are actually the thinest of all fluff-wise.
One could argue that Space Marines aren't even people but just living weapons. I don't buy that usually. Space Wolves have a lot of personality and even the taciturn Ultramarines do too.
However, i do with the Grey Knights. They're not even people just weapons that are pointed at the enemy then mind wiped afterwards.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Ever read any of the Grey Knights books? They're not bad, and they give the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights specifically a lot of character that isn't included in their codex.
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Post by: Commisar Wolfie
Very true. I really enjoyed the Grey Knight novels.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
SaintHazard wrote:Ever read any of the Grey Knights books? They're not bad, and they give the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights specifically a lot of character that isn't included in their codex.
I'm sure they must otherwise it would be a pretty boring book but I'm sure I would just feel the entire time that they were just trying to add in some character for that purpose. Grey Knights have no lives! Don't neccesarily mean that in a bad way its what makes them such exceptional Deamon-Vanquisher guys. Their almost non-existant existance is what supposedly makes them impervious to the corruptions of the infernal powers.
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Post by: SaintHazard
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm sure they must otherwise it would be a pretty boring book but I'm sure I would just feel the entire time that they were just trying to add in some character for that purpose. Grey Knights have no lives! Don't neccesarily mean that in a bad way its what makes them such exceptional Deamon-Vanquisher guys. Their almost non-existant existance is what supposedly makes them impervious to the corruptions of the infernal powers.
/shrug
Book, cover, judging, all that. Should still give'em a try. Next time you're at your friendly local bookstore, pick up the Grey Knights Omnibus, have ye a grand ole time.
I maintain that you will enjoy the Grey Knights more after reading the novels.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Wow, the Grey Knights books are probably my least favorite out of the BL novels. I know it's fashionable to hate C.S. Goto, but I'd take him over Ben Counter any day of the week.
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Post by: Guitardian
Methinks they are very cool. The elite of the elite of the elite of the elite.
The better than the best of the best. If Terminators are supposedly these stomping gods among men on a battlefield to a regular marine, who is in turn a stomping god among men to a guardsman, what do you call what a Terminator would call a god amongst Terminators? It's like double supersizing an already supersized soft drink. But yeah. Heck yeah. Their rules currently make them laughably outclassed on a tabletop. Codex creep has just outdone them in just about every way. Use as allies to the pathetic 4th ed. Guard book is a thing of the past now too, so other than for aesthetic fluffy reasons, they just don't pull their weight as much as a regular marine chapter, let alone the supposed super-super soldiers they are supposed to be.
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Post by: asimo77
"they're complete badasses without going overboard into stupidity"
What? They take SM who already are the most elite, super-awesome, Mary Sue, bestest fightan mans ever! Then have GK and say they are even better versions of that. It's for that reason that I hate GK more than anything (ok except SW).
If SM are warriors monks, all GK do is add more warrior and more monk.
Plus killing all the guys who helped you win is not cool man.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
It is a great pity the GK are showing their age, because they are complete badasses. Though I may disagree with Melissia in terms of general marine fluff, I have to say I agree with the GK being awesome.
Who knows, perhaps the new codex will bring some of that greatness to the tabletop?
EDIT: Okay, that whole ruthlessness thing does kind of annoy me, but I still like them. Still, Anyone who is willing to go toe-to-toe with Daemons on a regular basis is deserving of respect.
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Post by: Monster Rain
asimo77 wrote:Plus killing all the guys who helped you win is not cool man.
While I agree with you, there's something to be said for killing them so that the taint of the Warp can't take hold and damn them forever.
Tough love, as it were.
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Post by: Wiglaf
I think Grey Knight are along wih Black Templars the quintessence of SM; they are closer to their original concept than anyone else. Genetically modified zealots without personality or personal interest apart from die at the orders of the emperor, pretty much like the Sardaukar.
And yes, they deserve way more attention than half of the current marine chapters.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
asimo77 wrote:"they're complete badasses without going overboard into stupidity"
What? They take SM who already are the most elite, super-awesome, Mary Sue, bestest fightan mans ever! Then have GK and say they are even better versions of that. It's for that reason that I hate GK more than anything (ok except SW).
If SM are warriors monks, all GK do is add more warrior and more monk.
Plus killing all the guys who helped you win is not cool man.
I really don't agree with Space Marines being mary sues but its true that they are just "genetically engineered Supersoldier warrior monks X2". Like Space Marines......but better.
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Post by: Necroman
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:See, I've never liked the Daemonhunters for the 'super-man' feel the Grey Knights have. I don't know, I guess I just like flaws. You make a lot of good points though.
Same here. Imagine if you made a fan-character who was stronger than any Space Marine, had powerful psychic abilities, was totally incorruptible and pure, only appeared on super secret missions, and was the only one who could ever take down the strongest daemons.
Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.
They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.
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Post by: Necroman
Monster Rain wrote:They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.
Depends on the depiction, from what I can tell. Would have been hilarious if they did that in The Killing Ground (Which sucked, btw). Being ruthless isn't exactly a flaw in 40k, but the turning on allies thing does definitely count.
Still, I just find them boring in concept. To be fair, Necrons are also boring in concept, so it's more just weird taste.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Monster Rain wrote:Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.
They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.
That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.
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Post by: Jaon
Grey Knights and SoB are some of the last grimdark races left.
Space Marines are a bit 12 year old fanwank when it comes to fluff, orks are a JOKE (not serious, never deep)
I love GK just for their fluff.
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Post by: Manchu
Wait, now the complaint is that 40k is not grimdark enough anymore?
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Post by: Mr Nobody
I thought Melissia's summary was spot on, guess it's just me.
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Post by: Shrike325
See, and I personally loathe the GK for their fluff.
You have Guardsman, who exist for their numbers. Standard rank-and-file get the job done kind of guys. Then you have Space Marines, the uber-elite. The guys that you drop 100 of 'em down when you REALLY need something dead. And then you have Grey Knights, who just do the job of Space Marines... only you only need 10 of 'em! Well.. if you call in the Space Marines to kill stuff the Guard can't, and you kill in the Grey Knights to kill stuff the Space Marines can't, why have the goddamn Space Marines?
Maybe it's just my view of 40K, that the Guard is really what wins wars, and you might see some Space Marines going after vital targets, and that's about it, then the Grey Knights serve no purpose other than to make super-soldier super-soldiers. Which is just, in my opinion, ridiculous.
That being said, I do love their models, but I don't think they need their own codex.
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Post by: Monster Rain
The GKs are the elite Space Marines. They can't be everywhere because the fact that you have to be so much more badass than a Space Marine, pass the screening and be a psykers to boot makes the pool of prospective GKs pretty small.
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Post by: purplefood
Grey Knight exist to fight a VERY specific enemy. Daemons.
Normal marines can fight them sure but they will take heavy losses, Grey Knights however are made just to fight against daemons.
Grey Knights are also the armed part of the Ordo Malleus the inquisitors find the daemons and the Grey Knights crush them and anyone who had heard of them.
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Post by: Retribution
KamikazeCanuck wrote:asimo77 wrote:"they're complete badasses without going overboard into stupidity"
What? They take SM who already are the most elite, super-awesome, Mary Sue, bestest fightan mans ever! Then have GK and say they are even better versions of that. It's for that reason that I hate GK more than anything (ok except SW).
If SM are warriors monks, all GK do is add more warrior and more monk.
Plus killing all the guys who helped you win is not cool man.
I really don't agree with Space Marines being mary sues
BWAHAHAHA
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Post by: Necroman
Retribution wrote:BWAHAHAHA
Considering how vague and nonsensical the term has become due to overusage, it's hard to label anything as "Mary sue."
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Post by: Mr Nobody
The weakness with space marines is that they can only beat what they can hit and shoot. Daemons, they can not, at least not without difficulty; and that is where grey knights. They have weapons specifically made for fighting daemons, and an all around last resort weapon.
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Post by: Retribution
Necroman wrote:Retribution wrote:BWAHAHAHA
Considering how vague and nonsensical the term has become due to overusage, it's hard to label anything as "Mary sue."
When you have Marines showing up in other codices just to show off how OMFG-MAHREENS-R-AWESOME, they're mary friggin sues, and GKs are the Mary Sues of the Mary Sues
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Post by: Melissia
Jaon wrote:orks are a JOKE (not serious, never deep)
No.
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Post by: Necroman
How are Orks deep?
No seriously, I really want to know. I remember asking this question earlier, but I didn't see any response.
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Post by: Melissia
I will get to them whenever I cover the faction. Look beyond the so-called "comic relief".
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Post by: Shadowbrand
Melissa I so far agree with everything you have said.
...Except for liking orks. They are not even stupid funny. The only thing I even LIKE about them is the ragtag of the equipment and vehicles.
Except I think Chaos is overrated rather then uninteresting. But Chaos in fantasy is one of the most badass thing's I have ever seen.
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Post by: Necroman
Melissia wrote:I will get to them whenever I cover the faction. Look beyond the so-called "comic relief".
Kay, I'll take your word for it.
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Post by: Manchu
@Necroman: Just because Ork's aren't sitting around discussing Kierkegaard doesn't mean they aren't capable of complex motives and retrospection. For one thing, Ork identity seems to vacillate easily between the individual and the species. I guess the question to you is what do you mean by deep?
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Post by: Monster Rain
Orks have a lot of depth! Just look at their deities, for example. One is kunnin' but brutal, and the other is brutal but kunnin'.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
Literally makes the cover of the current CSM dex look like gak in comparison.
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Post by: Necroman
I like the first Codex: Chaos cover.
Even if it is ridiculously old-looking.
Manchu wrote:@Necroman: Just because Ork's aren't sitting around discussing Kierkegaard doesn't mean they aren't capable of complex motives and retrospection. For one thing, Ork identity seems to vacillate easily between the individual and the species. I guess the question to you is what do you mean by deep?
Actually dealing with the self identity and emotions that one feels, and how one Ork might differ from another in its goals or dreams or whatnot.
Eh, I'll just wait for Melissa's entry for Orks, to see what she means.
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Post by: Cambak
Shadowbrand wrote:
Literally makes the cover of the current CSM dex look like gak in comparison.
I have to admit, that I cowered a bit when I saw that just suddenly pop out from loading....
THAT IS BADASS!
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Post by: Shadowbrand
And exactly why after I make a Dark Eldar army. I will remake my Chaos Warrior's army.
Probably going to be mono Nurgle or Khorne.
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Post by: asimo77
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.
They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.
That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.
Sorry to go back to GK's, but how does something so inhuman make them tolerable? It's like saying they are more relatble the more you dehumanize them. Of course you could say the same about necrons, but I think they represent the concepts of fear, nihilism, silence, eternity, etc. GK just conjure up solemnity, eliteness, strength, etc. All of which are already covered by normal SM. Also elite daemonhunters are fine, thats what the Ordo Malleus is for, in fact "regular" humans (aka inquisitors) being super badass and taking on daemons is far cooler than the GK doing it, this is why SOB/ Inq is cool. They are still humans like IG but are far more dedicated, trained, and all that.
Back on topic orksaretheworstrace *trollface.jpeg*
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Post by: Wiglaf
GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?
And greenskins are indispensable in the 40k setting.
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Post by: the_ferrett
GK remind me of Internal affairs.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Wiglaf wrote:GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?.
" We came, we saw, we kicked its ass!"
Brother Captain Stern
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Post by: abaddon=gargamel
Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
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Post by: Monster Rain
abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
What about Galvatron?
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Post by: Necroman
Monster Rain wrote:What about Galvatron?
Galvatron sucked.  Plus, he killed Starscream. I'll never forgive him for that.
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Post by: Melissia
abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
So you think all Space Marines are wrong?
All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.
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Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
Monster Rain wrote:Wiglaf wrote:GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?.
" We came, we saw, we kicked its ass!"
Brother Captain Stern
You know how you dislike something, and then something small or otherwise insignicant happens which make you sort of like them?
I think it just happened.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Melissia wrote:abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
So you think all Space Marines are wrong?
All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.
With Gws move for more cash, what with simplified rules and masses of minis needed per army (general, non specialised builds) the SM fluff has been diluted accordingly.
I would expect GK fluff to get weaker if and when GW decide they need to shift more GK trademarked goods and services.
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Post by: Melissia
SM has been that way since second edition for me.
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Post by: Zarynterk
Necroman wrote:Monster Rain wrote:What about Galvatron?
Galvatron sucked. Plus, he killed Starscream. I'll never forgive him for that.
He was voiced by Leonard Nimoy though.... which is epic
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Post by: Guitardian
Melissia wrote:SM has been that way since second edition for me.
yuup.
The difference for me was that in 2nd edition, GK termies looked just like termies with the right paint job and a couple of pages of fluff in the Codex Imperialis, and were taken from the 'allies' section of the codex-army-lists pamphlet for a long long time. It was later, after the pewter-shift that GW $ decided they needed separate miniatures to represent them. cha-ching!
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Post by: OoieGoie
Im a bit iffy about the 'mind wipe' for Grey Knights. Character is an important feature for gaming and film. Mind wipe someones personality and you get a very generic person I think. I am yet to read any GK books though. Still, it bothers me.
I never saw GK as the elite of space marines either. They have mind powers and a shiny sword and kill Deamons. Lots of em. They get a bit extra, but thats it.
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Post by: Melissia
Mind wipes don't necessarily remove their personality. It can, but it doesn't have to. There are many levels of mind wipe and even mind control in 40k, and none of them are 100% effective.
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Post by: PraetorDave
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Post by: ChaosGalvatron
Monster Rain wrote:abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
What about Galvatron?
Did Galvatron ever turn into a gun that was usable by another transformer? The original model could become a gun but i only remember galvatron turning into the cannon (as opposed to a gun) in the movie and tv show.
On topic i like the GK's. They are the elite daemon hunters. I guess the downside rules wise is that they need to be good (but not game breaking good) at killing daemon armies but also be balanced to match other armies.
Interesting bit from the lexicanum website:
The Grey Knights hold a unique honour among the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes - in over ten thousand years of service, not a single one of their number has ever defected to Chaos.
The Grey Knights are more loyal than the Primarchs!
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Post by: Melissia
It'll get done. It's not been a good weekend/start of the week for me.
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Post by: OoieGoie
Melissia wrote:It'll get done. It's not been a good weekend/start of the week for me.
Think of cute little puppies. Mmm puppies.
PUPPIES TURNED TO CHAOS ARRRGHHH BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD DOG!!!
Umm, sorry, what was I saying? Oh yes, puppies. Mmm puppies.
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Post by: Melissia
I haven't seen anyone that uses khorne's puppies.
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Post by: Manchu
The models could do with an upgrade. But even if they looked awesome . . .
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Post by: krato123
PRIME!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry...yet another opportunity 2 good 2 pass up....
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
asimo77 wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.
They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.
That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.
Sorry to go back to GK's, but how does something so inhuman make them tolerable? It's like saying they are more relatble the more you dehumanize them. Of course you could say the same about necrons, but I think they represent the concepts of fear, nihilism, silence, eternity, etc. GK just conjure up solemnity, eliteness, strength, etc. All of which are already covered by normal SM. Also elite daemonhunters are fine, thats what the Ordo Malleus is for, in fact "regular" humans (aka inquisitors) being super badass and taking on daemons is far cooler than the GK doing it, this is why SOB/ Inq is cool. They are still humans like IG but are far more dedicated, trained, and all that.
Back on topic orksaretheworstrace *trollface.jpeg*
What I meant is what's the explanation for GKs not just being Supersoldiers but Superdupersoldiers is that they don't have a single second of the lives not dedicated to being the aforementioned duper. To imply, let alone write a story showing they do have lives is wrong IMO. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)
So you think all Space Marines are wrong?
All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.
Yes they are but really not even close to the same extent. Ultramarines are the most strict giving you 15 minutes of free time a day but that is relaxed in the field which Ultramarines always are. Space Wolves never seem to train at all just booze it up. Plus they retain all of their memories and often their childhoods and each one does have his own personality. Nonetheless, I'll admit to a normal human an Astartes does indeed appear to be nothing but a living weapon but a GK is too a space marine what a space marine appears to a guardsman. They really are not people. Which once again is fine; just want the price they need to pay to be Grey Knights represented accurately. Any attempt to make them people cannot avoid mary sueness IMO.
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Post by: Melissia
I was hoping a certain Saint would amuse me with another prediction. But somehow I figure he might have predicted:
8: BLOOD ANGELS
... or at least that it would be roughly around this location. Fluffwise, I kinda liked Blood Angels. Metal nipples aside, I like their models. But the reason why they're low is because somehow, their playstyle feels... indistinct. As if they're borrowing a conglomeration of Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Space Marines and mashing it all together without developing a coherent narrative for the army.
As for the fluff, I admit I don't know as much about Blood Angels as I would like. I do like their primarch-- Saint Sanguinius, the only primarch considered worthy of being declared an Imperial Saint. Injured and tired from fighting a greater daemon, Sanguinius battled Horus as desperately as he could to protect his father, the Emperor of Mankind. Not seeking any reward-- but because it was the right thing to do. Being the symbol of nobility and honor in a grimdark universe, of course, means that he was killed, and his death was used as a catalyst to curse all of his progeny. The Space Marines afterwards fought desperately not to give in to this curse. They express themselves in the fine arts (something which is kinda endearing and humanizing about them), and yet, they must struggle to maintain their humanity lest they give in to the curse and become the Death Company. They are generally considered very reliable and friendly as far as Space Marines go, and have a good reputation for heroism across the galaxy.
As simple as this concept is, the " tragically doomed heroes" feel is captured very well and done justice by GW. I'm not so sure about the quality of some of the new fluff (as I said, I have only glanced through the newest codex outside of the army list, but all in all I think they're a very likable chapter without becoming Mary Sue. That said, where I feel they fail is the coherency of their army, and some of the more ridiculous things that they are given in order to give "flavor" to them. Descent of Angels feels like they went a step too far-- exchanging Combat Tactics for re-rolling failed reserve rolls sounds good. Exchanging combat tactics for reducing scatter by d6 sounds better. But both of them at once? Perhaps I'm misjudging it, but it feels like a bit too much. I get the idea behind this, but it still feels excessive (time will tell if it is-- I don't think it's THAT excessive mind). The deep striking land raiders come to mind as well, but they're only bad because the concept is ludicrous, not because it's dangerous or overpowered (quite the opposite).
But more than that, they just don't feel coherent. They wanted to give the Blood Angels an assault army feel, which is all well and good, but then they topped it off by making them a FAST assault army (good deep striking, fast tanks), and then a fast and durable (sanguinary priests anyone?) assault army, and then after that they made them a fast durable assault army with good shooting as well. So what CAN'T they do very well? Perhaps they succeeded and the issue is with my own expectations, as it doesn't appear to be an overpowered list, I just think it doesn't really feel like it is very well thought out and coherently organized. If it is my fault, then maybe Blood Angels just aren't my thing.
Metal nipples aside, the models are well crafted and the color scheme is nice to look at, but they don't really vary much from Space Marines visually, which is unfortunate. I don't have that many complaints about the army list and models, I just wish I had more GOOD things to say about it, because I like their fluff. Still, Blood Angels aren't doing badly as they're the first of the top half of the codex list.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
phew, was afraid they'd make the top 3.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Melissia wrote:I haven't seen anyone that uses khorne's puppies.
As in Flesh Hounds, or Berserkers, or actual puppies dedicated to slaughter?...
If it's the latter, then I may not be online for some time. Panic rooms don't build themselves.
EDIT: also, some interesting points on the BA. I actually kinda like their core fluff, but yes, the new additions to their background are somewhat grating. I don't hink they're as bad as they are made out to be, but that does not negate their cheesiness. Still, many of the models are still cool, regardless of moulded chestplates (I still adore the idea of the Baal Predator) and their book though somewhat unbalanced, is by no means unbeatable, so yeah, I can live with this.
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Post by: Melissia
All three.
A berserker riding a flesh hound iwth a khornate puppy on his shoulder.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I didn't know Sanguinus was a saint. You've mentioned their interest in art before - what are talking about? I thought they were only interested in going insane with anger?
As for playstyle theme couldn't you consider them a deep strike army?
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Melissia wrote:All three.
A berserker riding a flesh hound iwth a khornate puppy on his shoulder.
Atrocitus? Is that you?!
(sorry, bad Green Lantern joke)
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Post by: Melissia
Yep, Sanguinius is an Imperial Saint, the first one to be canonized I think (I could be wrong here) by the Ecclesiarchy in its earliest form.
Yes, they're interested in art, at least according to the Deathwatch roleplay. Their works of art are noted as being some of the best in the galaxy, as they have centuries to perfect them.
I think they actually do better when NOT deep striking due to being Fast.
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Post by: micahaphone
Yeah, blood angels just don't seem unique enough to me, but I didn't know they'd try to take up the arts in order to suppress their inner beast. That's kind of cool, actually.
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Post by: Coolyo294
GAWDDAMMIT! YOU NEED TO RANK THE CODEXES FASTER!
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Post by: Melissia
I probably should start working on the next one right now.
But instead of doing that, I'm going to go play Earth 2160.
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Post by: GMR
Melissia wrote:I probably should start working on the next one right now.
But instead of doing that, I'm going to go play Earth 2160.
Meh, Earth 2150 was a lot better in my opinion. Of course none of my computers will run it so I'm stuck with 2160, still not complaining still a decent game.
On a more on topic note; I'm glad the Daemons haven't shown up yet, I've got a bet going with my 40K buddy about who's going to win out of the three armies we each have. So far I'm down CSM and Nids and he's lost Tau and now Blood Angels, going to be a close thng...
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Post by: kirsanth
That Blood Angel summary made me want to re-read the codex. I think you wrote about the BAs better than I have seen GW do. Maybe its my cynicism or lack of overall interest in(and thus a lack in my reading about) them.
Or not.
Nice.
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Post by: TheAngelKing47
You're still mean to Chaos fans... I still only picked CSM cause I had thought they were different, knew them from Dawn of War and I really like war.. oh and guns.
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Post by: Exopheric
Blood Angels would have to be my loyalist Space Marines of choice. I wouldn't have got into them if it weren't for the Space Hulk release, though. I'm a sucker for Terminator armour. Melissa has done a great job of articulating what makes them interesting, or rather I like the same things about their background.
I have to admit they aren't easy to develop a theme for, besides blingtastic conversions. It's not that there aren't good things in the codex, but there are too many, and they don't really share a clear theme. Assault troops backed up by mechs and tanks that look like the Louvre decided to conquer the universe?
Waittaminute...
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Post by: Seaward
micahaphone wrote:Yeah, blood angels just don't seem unique enough to me, but I didn't know they'd try to take up the arts in order to suppress their inner beast. That's kind of cool, actually.
I'm not sure it's solely to suppress their inner beast; they're a chapter inspired by Renaissance Italy, for the most part, at least in terms of their culture, and so the argument could be made that they do it just because they're creative. They're creative superhuman killing machines. It's that dichotomy that interests me, actually; they create works of art, and in combat, they can't wait to lose their minds and get in close to rearrange anatomy with chainswords.
As far as the feel of their playstyle...I think it loses a lot of flavor when it gets devolved down to Razorspam. They can do an all-jump list, which no other SM army can do, and that's pretty nifty. A pure deep strike army is also completely viable with them, and I don't think that's true with anything other than Daemons. So they have that going for them. Trouble is, those builds aren't seen as being as competitive as Razorspamming.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Renaissance Italy Beserkers? Thought they were greek.
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Post by: Seaward
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Renaissance Italy Beserkers? Thought they were greek.
Not as far as I can tell.
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Post by: PraetorDave
Melissa that ranking honestly didn't feel negative to me. It sounded like you actually liked them. But I digress...
I just think Blood Angels are overpowered. Like Melissa said, they do everything really well, and don't do an awful lot poorly. There is the whole rage thing...but that isn't even that big a deal. Since they are so strong in close combat, running at the enemy laughing maniacally isn't a negative. Deep striking Land Raiders? As if land raiders weren't strong enough already, now you can put them at the enemy's door stop turn 1!
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Post by: OoieGoie
Im a rare Dakka who actually doesnt like the new models. Those guys with the wings look like they just came back from an all male night club
As a non-gamer, if the BA are good at everything, wouldnt this effect their points cost?
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Post by: Seaward
PraetorDave wrote:Melissa that ranking honestly didn't feel negative to me. It sounded like you actually liked them. But I digress...
I just think Blood Angels are overpowered. Like Melissa said, they do everything really well, and don't do an awful lot poorly. There is the whole rage thing...but that isn't even that big a deal. Since they are so strong in close combat, running at the enemy laughing maniacally isn't a negative. Deep striking Land Raiders? As if land raiders weren't strong enough already, now you can put them at the enemy's door stop turn 1!
Honestly, the BA codex is pretty well-balanced for being the newest book - which only means it's going to suffer horribly from codex creep. Space Wolves are a much stronger codex. Blood Angels have a lot of toys, but toys is really all they are - deep-striking Land Raiders is horribly dumb to actually do in a game, and provides negligible benefits should it actually work, rather than mishap due to having a gigantic footprint. Rage is actually more of a detriment than a benefit.
What's good in it are FNP/ FC Sanguinary Priests, fast vehicles, and the ability to Razorspam better than anybody else.
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Post by: Exopheric
Seaward wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Renaissance Italy Beserkers? Thought they were greek.
Not as far as I can tell.
Renaissance Italy drew inspiration from the rediscovery of classical Greco-Roman culture in general. The more baroque sculptural stylings do also have a more Hellenistic feel, though. Especially the masks.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Yeah I have agreed with you on every codex. And Especially on the Blood Angels.
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Post by: Jon Touchdown
So far I agree with the standing list. Melissia = my new hero sorry GWAR lol :p
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Post by: Melissia
Oh, just remembered, I need to edit the first post to include Daemonhunters and Blood Angels...
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Post by: Jon Touchdown
Yay! I caused an update lol. I cant wait to see where my guard fit into this. I think #1 would be just fine *Slips you a 5$ bill* keep that change and buy yourself something nice lol
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Post by: abaddon=gargamel
Really? Are we unimportant to you, Melissia? I don't blame you. I know JUST how you feel.
Anyways, I love this thread.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I await the next update/post/whatever!
....because I actually don't have much to say about the BA. sigh.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Melissia wrote:I was hoping a certain Saint would amuse me with another prediction. But somehow I figure he might have predicted:
I didn't predict anything 'cause I was away on a mod-funded vacation. 
But I totally was waffling between SW and BA for this entry. 50% chance I would have picked the right one!
Anyway, Melissia hates putting Marine codices in rankings consecutively (Daemonhunters excepted), so Eldar are next.
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Post by: Jayden63
I personally hate the BA codex most out of all of the marine dexs. I dislike their fluff, I dislike some of the new power president that it sets for the game, I dislike how little divergent they actually are considering they are supposed to be a divergent SM chapter.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
PraetorDave wrote:Melissa that ranking honestly didn't feel negative to me. It sounded like you actually liked them. But I digress...
She does.
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Post by: Melissia
KamikazeCanuck wrote:PraetorDave wrote:Melissa that ranking honestly didn't feel negative to me. It sounded like you actually liked them. But I digress...
She does.
A cookie to the Canadian!
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Post by: Arschbombe
I find it refreshing to read an assessment of the BA dex that isn't all "team edward, bat nipples, flying landraiders hurrrrr."
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Post by: Vaktathi
Melissia wrote:I probably should start working on the next one right now.
But instead of doing that, I'm going to go play Earth 2160.
Good call...
And for that, I'm going to reinstall The Moon Project right now.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Arschbombe wrote:I find it refreshing to read an assessment of the BA dex that isn't all "team edward, bat nipples, flying landraiders hurrrrr."
Bat Nipples were mentioned twice
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Post by: abaddon=gargamel
Oh, quiet. That doesn't count. I predict that it was all Tzeentch's plan to get his faction in a low place...
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Post by: Melissia
Tzeentch's faction isn't in a low place. WHy, I haven't yet listed Chaos Daemons.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
I'm still wondering when Space Wolves will pop up.
But the fact we are above all the other chapters makes me feel warm inside.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I think Melisia is realizing these lists are more work than they appear to be.
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Post by: Jon Touchdown
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think Melisia is realizing these lists are more work than they appear to be.
Indeed, but I have faith and await an update patiently 
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Post by: Melissia
Oh please, I've already done projects which require much more work than this one, and they're nearing completion.
It's just midterms now.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:Oh please, I've already done projects which require much more work than this one,
ya, but they were probably important...
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Post by: Melissia
Messed up your quotes there, huh?
I'm workin' on the next one. I was hoping Saint would make another prediction
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:Messed up your quotes there, huh?
D'oh!
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Post by: Araenion
Melissia wrote:I'm workin' on the next one. I was hoping Saint would make another prediction
He did have. He predicted Eldar, in fact.
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Post by: Melissia
Oh right. I forgot about that. Automatically Appended Next Post: 7: Chaos Daemons
Chaos Daemons, the only reason why I might consider playing a Chaos army right now. A pity that despite the cool fluff and interesting rules, the reason why I'm turned off of the army is because of the models.
The mythological feel of the codex really gives the four gods personality, and their minions as well in turn. The corrupting nature of Chaos in the fluff books-- especially the Dark Heresy roleplay books-- is very well done, and though I am saddened by the fact that there is no Lost and the Damned army (I'm not starting a Chaos army where I have to buy even one single Chaos Space Marine, for reasons stated in that army's review), Chaos Daemons themselves are certainly a very interesting and very dangerous foe, without going overboard. They're highly dangerous, yet they're also very unstable, simply existing in this world damages Daemons and so with rare exceptions they can only manifest for short whirlwind battles and infestations. But oh damn, when those specific conditions are met and they CAN take a long-term stay on a world? They turn that world into a living hell the likes of which the human mind cannot properly comprehend, and it takes the powers of the Grey Knights and Imperial Inquisition in order to fight them off. Even then, sometimes it's judged to be better to simply quarantine such worlds until the sorcery wears off, instead of attempt to cleanse them.
Their rules pretty much represent this. Tabletop 40k battles are short, brutal affairs, and with Daemons this is no different. They manifest onto the battlefield in your face, and quickly move to tear it off in the remorseless manner of the daemons of myth and nightmare. While limited in much the same way as the Ork army is as far as anti-tank goes, they certainly aren't as incapable of handling mechanized armies as many people think-- they just require more coordination than many players are willing to put them through. But that's fine with me, not every army has to be nor should be simple and easy to play (as noted in my Dark Eldar rant). Daemons are tricky, but when mastered present a great deal of potential kickassery waiting to happen.
... and now, onto the models. Well, with a few exceptions, I don't really particularly like most of them. The horrors are just spaztastic in a very uninspiring way, and their form is really just too predictable for a Tzeentch daemon. The Daemonettes look like they belong in a Nurgle army rather than a Slaanesh army, a marked decrease in quality from the previous versions. Plaguebearers are okay, giving a proper Nurgle feel, yet they too feel so limiting. Nurglings are good, properly cute and disgusting at the same time, but their rules feel kinda mediocre and they seem to be rarely used. Bloodletters... well, I just wish their limbs were a bit more muscular, but other than that I'm okay with them. Of the HQ units, I like skulltaker the best (minus his overlong tongue), but most of them have potential.... just very specific problems. The detail on the teeth of the bloodthirster, the nonexistent "face" of the Great Unclean One, the peculiar staff position of the Lord of Change, the passive appearance of the Fateweaver, the "naked baby on a throne" look for Epidemius, the silly masked wand of the Masque, and so on. Much of the rest of hte units are the same way, but visually speaking I'd go with a Khorne army as their models ahve the most consistent visual appeal to me with the least amount of problems.
Still, as collecting and painting is my least favorite aspect of the hobby anyway, that's not really enough to have Daemons pushed lower than this. Since it came out I've been tempted to collect the army, but money and the issues with the new range of models have prevented me from doing so. Perhaps a fifth edition set of models will be better. Perhaps not. Either way, I at least look forward to its codex.
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Post by: Araenion
Oooh, now entering the big league, eh!
I must admit I've been a lurker in this thread for a while now, an interesting read from the start.
I've yet to face Daemons on the tabletop, but I want to because they sound like they make any battle with them quite chaotic. Which means unexpected things happen, which means fun times!
And their fluff is interesting, if a bit cliche(then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing at all). I wouldn't want them prodding my mind for entry to the material cosmos, that's for certain.
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Post by: Maenus_Rajhana
I only recently started collecting a Daemon army, and I have to say, it's been hands down the most fun i've had since getting back into the hobby. It plays very different from almost every army out there, and makes for some very interesting games.
Far as the models go, there are some definite weaknesses, I'll agree (I'm looking at you, Daemonettes! also, lack of chariots...), but it does also enjoy a few truly awesome models. Soulgrinder, anyone?
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Post by: Terminus
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.
The books actually do a good job of portraying the Grey Knights as inhuman weapons. Even Alaric, who was an exception, was very much indocrinated and was only able to do what he did because he was stripped of his psychic wards.
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Post by: purplefood
Terminus wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.
The books actually do a good job of portraying the Grey Knights as inhuman weapons. Even Alaric, who was an exception, was very much indocrinated and was only able to do what he did because he was stripped of his psychic wards.
Yeah the books do show them as unthinking weapons although Alaric does think about how to kill daemons so i guess that counts.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I dunno, I kinda like the models. To be fair, the scrawny Bloodletters are taller in general than other models, so the lack of muscle is kinda negated by that, I suppose. The Horrors pretty much look as I would expect them to, minus a few limbs and eyeballs, and I preferred the old Daemonettes, but I don't mind the new ones too much.
To be fair to the greater daemons, they've been around for a very long time now, and are showing their age. Perhaps someday we'll get an update on them.
Otherwise, yeah, I mostly agree with your thoughts. Mostly.
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Post by: Librius Machina
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Post by: agnosto
No, that model is a representation of what happens after Lucy accidentally kills Charlie Brown and turns to religion...
Edit: Though in hindsight, she looks more like Marcie. So maybe she finally had enough of Pepperment Patty's endless drivel and stupidity and finally knifed her in the back...
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Post by: Necroagogo
agnosto wrote:
No, that model is a representation of what happens after Lucy accidentally kills Charlie Brown and turns to religion...
LOL!
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I'm never quite sure how to react to that model. Seriously. It's easily the weirdest thing GW has ever done, bar the (very ancient) Rambone model.
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Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
I'm never quite sure how to react to that model. Seriously. It's easily the weirdest thing GW has ever done, bar the (very ancient) Rambone model.
Care to link to a pic of it for me?
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
It's near impossible to find a picture of it, nowadays. It's in the old Undead collector's guide, though; a skeleton wielding an M16 and wearing Rambo's costume. Odd thing to find in something dedicated to Fantasy.
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Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer
I want it now
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Post by: OoieGoie
Melissia wrote:7: Chaos Daemons
(Im still here )
Spot on.
I started collecting start of year 2010 and Daemons where my first choice, however, like you said the 'look' turned me off. I chose Eldar.
I see the Deamon army more like a bunch of confused cartoon characters rather then a pack of soul devouring creatures of pure darkness. Although the fluff is good it could be redone so the armies of Darkness have more 'flow' to them. Fluff is old, old, old and could use some major updates which effect the new future models.
I really detest the new plastic Deamon Princes too. Some of the parts like heads and arms\hands are just "cheap" to me and could have been modeled much better.
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Post by: Zefig
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:It's near impossible to find a picture of it, nowadays. It's in the old Undead collector's guide, though; a skeleton wielding an M16 and wearing Rambo's costume. Odd thing to find in something dedicated to Fantasy.
I've seen a purportedly GW wizard with a submachine gun before. Granted that was on Ebay, so I've no clue if it's really legit. Kind wish I'd bought it regardless, I love that kind of weird gak.
@Melissia- Interesting reads, these. Lookin forward to the rest.
Edit- Ah, here we go, found it. Guess I still could buy it. Although it's lacking all the writing on the tab, which makes me nervous. Eh.
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Post by: ToBeWilly
@ Melissa: Great job! Enjoyed reading each and every one. Looking forward to rest.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Eldar are higher than Chaos Daemons.
Interesting.
Agree on most of your analysis of Chaos Daemons, with the exception of the models - I personally like the new Daemon Prince, as well as the new Seekers. I don't like the new Pink Horrors as much as the old ones, I do agree with you there... they've got too well-defined anatomy for creatures who constantly morph and twist and vomit out more creatures. In any case, some of the models look very nice in my opinion (Screamers, Flamers, and Soul Grinders among my favorites).
I WILL say that Daemons are my third primary army (after Orks and Tau) for a reason - they're freakin' fun as hell to play. I play a pure Tzeentch Daemon force, and it's growing weekly.
Edit: Oh, and Space Wolves are next.
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Post by: Wiglaf
I would play a pure Slaanesh/Khorne army only because the sweetness of the models. Too bad they consist in just 3 types of unit.
To play a true varied army you have to field demons of every Chaos god, but the idea of mixing gods armies is ludicrous for me, no matter how much GW try to convince me that its completely normal and happens everyday.
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Post by: juraigamer
I'm with ya on the demons melissia, except for one thing regrading the models.
I just don't see anything, besides the horrors and all the khorne models, as actual demons. If I ever made a demon army, it would khorne flakes like I owned the label.
I see the nurgle stuff as zombies and undead, not demons. I see the slanessh stuff as... kinda demonish, but would rather not have kids going *ooo boobies*, tzneech is another story, but as it stands he is still out.
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Post by: General Seric
like this thread, have to agree with you so far, keep it up!
Oh, and also:
SaintHazard wrote:Eldar are higher than Chaos Daemons.
Interesting.
Agree on most of your analysis of Chaos Daemons, with the exception of the models - I personally like the new Daemon Prince, as well as the new Seekers. I don't like the new Pink Horrors as much as the old ones, I do agree with you there... they've got too well-defined anatomy for creatures who constantly morph and twist and vomit out more creatures. In any case, some of the models look very nice in my opinion (Screamers, Flamers, and Soul Grinders among my favorites).
I WILL say that Daemons are my third primary army (after Orks and Tau) for a reason - they're freakin' fun as hell to play. I play a pure Tzeentch Daemon force, and it's growing weekly.
Edit: Oh, and Space Wolves are next.
I was just wondering how exactly you play a pure Tzeentch army, I have not herd of it before? I would start a demon army if I could do a mono-Tzeentch army, because he is my favorite Chaos god and I like the units from what I have herd of them, but I do not realy like the other gods all that much ( I would only think of including small amount of Khorne, for killyness ). It would be fun to play a demon army, as it is very different from the army I play now.
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Post by: juraigamer
General Seric wrote:
I was just wondering how exactly you play a pure Tzeentch army
You should start off with a batch or two of flamers of tzeentch, they are most excellent in killing infantry of all kinds plus can down a vehicle or two on a good day.
Then of course horrors, with their excellent ranged attack against infantry and the ability to take the bolt of t.
Then, some screamers of course, since they kill vehicles dead.
Toss in a demon prince or two and 2-4 hq of your choice and roll with it. Most suggest focusing your infantry on shooting while your hq and heavy support do their thing/melee. It works quite well since your models can shoot, thus be effective the turn they arrive.
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Post by: General Seric
juraigamer wrote:General Seric wrote:
I was just wondering how exactly you play a pure Tzeentch army
You should start off with a batch or two of flamers of tzeentch, they are most excellent in killing infantry of all kinds plus can down a vehicle or two on a good day.
Then of course horrors, with their excellent ranged attack against infantry and the ability to take the bolt of t.
Then, some screamers of course, since they kill vehicles dead.
Toss in a demon prince or two and 2-4 hq of your choice and roll with it. Most suggest focusing your infantry on shooting while your hq and heavy support do their thing/melee. It works quite well since your models can shoot, thus be effective the turn they arrive.
Thanks, I had not been sure if they had any kind of anti-tank, I only knew flamers were infantry killers and horrors were ranged. I am happy that this is a viable army, as my previous options for a second army were very close to my first one, Guard. ( Tau or Space Marines) A Tzeentch army seems like it would be realy fun to play, and very different from Guard. I had previously thought I would have to use most of the gods to play demons, and was repeled because I hated most of the models of the other gods ( Slannesh and Nurgle).
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Post by: SaintHazard
Basically what he said. I have two units of Horrors (one with the Changeling), four Heralds on Disks, one Daemon Prince, and one unit of three Flamers. The Flamers themselves make decent anti-tank units (as BoC glances on a 4+) but I'm planning on getting at least one unit of Screamers. Meltabombs FTW.
And yeah, like he said, Tzeentch armies are super-speshul 'cause they can actually do things on the turn they DS in. Tzeentch Daemons are the only shooty Daemons.
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Post by: juraigamer
Oh yea, it works. I remember the first time someone dropped flamers by my marines. Then he said they were all using breath of chaos. I had a sad face and dead dudes. Ignore cover and armor saves is pretty boss.
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Post by: General Seric
How is the Greater Demon of Tzeentch? he sounds pretty good from the tactica on GW's website
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Show me one model GW doesn't say good things about and I'll show you a model that won't make it to the next codex.
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Post by: General Seric
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Show me one model GW doesn't say good things about and I'll show you a model that won't make it to the next codex.
Thats why I was asking, I know they do that, I think I have herd that Fateweaver sucks; and they tried to make him sound like the best thing since sliced bread in the tactica. I like the model of the Greater Demon of Tzeentch and would like to know if it is any good.
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Post by: Maenus_Rajhana
In general, a Lord of Change is considered the weakest of the Greater Daemons, as anything he can do, a Daemon Prince can generally do better and cheaper. HQs in a pure Tzeentch army seem to usually consist of 4 Heralds (often on chariots).
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Post by: General Seric
Thanks, I do not know much about demons (might use one of the models as a demon prince thou, like the bird look to him). I plan to pick up the codex next time I am at the FLGS.
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Post by: Melissia
6: SPACE WOLVES
Well, Saint Hazard picked another one. I like Space Wolves, which is obvious given that they're in this particular spot. They're a great army, one of the best competitively, with several good options and a few really great options-- far more than anything else in this list thus far. I also enjoy their fluff, the Vikings In Space feel is just awesome in a somewhat humorous way. Space Wolves are known for being gregarious and surprisingly humble, not viewing themselves as better than the average Guardsman. While other chapters might do this, more than any of them it is focused on with the Space Wolves fluff as something that is an intrinsic part of their chapter's culture, and it means that the Imperium at large tends to respect them. Any soldier who fights for the Imperium and gives their life in the name of the Emperor is equal to a Space Wolf even if they were a mere human, and therefor to be honored with a drink in their name. I guess Space Wolves drink a lot after big battles.
But sometimes it feels like it went a bit too far. Thunderwolf cavalry? Goddamnit GW, this isn't fantasy, this is science fiction! Okay okay, sure, in scifi there's always aliens riding aliens or somesuch, but this isn't as cool as that because they aren't aliens, they're just really big wolves. Which works in fantasy, but it does not work in science fiction. And all of the "wolf" equipment feels the same way. I really wish they'd focus more on the viking aspect than the werewolf aspect, because the viking aspect is the one that actually remotely interests me (hell, I wasn't even interested in werewolves back when I roleplayed in the various White Wolf games and settings).
Still, on the parts that didn't go too far, they did a good job capturing the feel of the army while keeping most of the options to be pretty cool and useful. The Sagas are how I kinda wish the original SM codex did things instead of using special characters, but that's an entirely different subject (that I will cover when I get to that). Some things feel like they're too cheap for what you get-- Grey Hunters for instance-- but it's not so much that the force is unbeatable by most codices given a properly built army.
So yeah. Go Wolves. They're the Marine army I'd be tempted to start after Grey Knights.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Hell yeah. That's two I've gotten right so far.
I happen to agree on most of the points, but the mere fact that they've gone from Viking to Werewolf with little to no justification, plus the sheer stupidity of TWC, plus the ridiculous naming conventions (Wolf Wolfborn riding a Thunderwolf, wearing a Wolf Tooth Necklace, wielding the Wolf Claw) put them much lower on my own list.
Anyway, Melissia's going to break her normal convention of "no two Space Marine codices in a row" now, and Codex: Space Marines is next.
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Post by: Melissia
There wasn't really ever a convention... it's just how it ended up.
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Post by: SaintHazard
Alright, let me be more accurate.
Melissia's going to break her subconscious convention.
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Post by: Araenion
Space Wolves are the army that I consider starting after I work on my Eldar a little more. Their fluff is cool with all their noble warrior-heroes and the like. I especially loved the part where they battled the Inquisition because the latter had the audacity to suspect them for heresy. And after a while, the Inquisition turned tail and ran away and wrote official reports how they found no sign of corruption on Fenris.
And the way they celebrate their Imperial Guard allies is spot on. They're the valiant vanguard of Mankind, simply because they don't try to be heroes, they simply. Are.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Melissia wrote:6: SPACE WOLVES
Well, Saint Hazard picked another one. I like Space Wolves, which is obvious given that they're in this particular spot. They're a great army, one of the best competitively, with several good options and a few really great options-- far more than anything else in this list thus far. I also enjoy their fluff, the Vikings In Space feel is just awesome in a somewhat humorous way. Space Wolves are known for being gregarious and surprisingly humble, not viewing themselves as better than the average Guardsman. While other chapters might do this, more than any of them it is focused on with the Space Wolves fluff as something that is an intrinsic part of their chapter's culture, and it means that the Imperium at large tends to respect them. Any soldier who fights for the Imperium and gives their life in the name of the Emperor is equal to a Space Wolf even if they were a mere human, and therefor to be honored with a drink in their name. I guess Space Wolves drink a lot after big battles.
But sometimes it feels like it went a bit too far. Thunderwolf cavalry? Goddamnit GW, this isn't fantasy, this is science fiction! Okay okay, sure, in scifi there's always aliens riding aliens or somesuch, but this isn't as cool as that because they aren't aliens, they're just really big wolves. Which works in fantasy, but it does not work in science fiction. And all of the "wolf" equipment feels the same way. I really wish they'd focus more on the viking aspect than the werewolf aspect, because the viking aspect is the one that actually remotely interests me (hell, I wasn't even interested in werewolves back when I roleplayed in the various White Wolf games and settings).
Still, on the parts that didn't go too far, they did a good job capturing the feel of the army while keeping most of the options to be pretty cool and useful. The Sagas are how I kinda wish the original SM codex did things instead of using special characters, but that's an entirely different subject (that I will cover when I get to that). Some things feel like they're too cheap for what you get-- Grey Hunters for instance-- but it's not so much that the force is unbeatable by most codices given a properly built army.
So yeah. Go Wolves. They're the Marine army I'd be tempted to start after Grey Knights.
Why does it look chaos demons?
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Post by: Melissia
Because I forgot to change the picture, duh?
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Post by: Jayden63
Melissia wrote:6: SPACE WOLVES
Well, Saint Hazard picked another one. I like Space Wolves, which is obvious given that they're in this particular spot. They're a great army, one of the best competitively, with several good options and a few really great options-- far more than anything else in this list thus far. I also enjoy their fluff, the Vikings In Space feel is just awesome in a somewhat humorous way. Space Wolves are known for being gregarious and surprisingly humble, not viewing themselves as better than the average Guardsman. While other chapters might do this, more than any of them it is focused on with the Space Wolves fluff as something that is an intrinsic part of their chapter's culture, and it means that the Imperium at large tends to respect them. Any soldier who fights for the Imperium and gives their life in the name of the Emperor is equal to a Space Wolf even if they were a mere human, and therefor to be honored with a drink in their name. I guess Space Wolves drink a lot after big battles.
But sometimes it feels like it went a bit too far. Thunderwolf cavalry? Goddamnit GW, this isn't fantasy, this is science fiction! Okay okay, sure, in scifi there's always aliens riding aliens or somesuch, but this isn't as cool as that because they aren't aliens, they're just really big wolves. Which works in fantasy, but it does not work in science fiction. And all of the "wolf" equipment feels the same way. I really wish they'd focus more on the viking aspect than the werewolf aspect, because the viking aspect is the one that actually remotely interests me (hell, I wasn't even interested in werewolves back when I roleplayed in the various White Wolf games and settings).
Still, on the parts that didn't go too far, they did a good job capturing the feel of the army while keeping most of the options to be pretty cool and useful. The Sagas are how I kinda wish the original SM codex did things instead of using special characters, but that's an entirely different subject (that I will cover when I get to that). Some things feel like they're too cheap for what you get-- Grey Hunters for instance-- but it's not so much that the force is unbeatable by most codices given a properly built army.
So yeah. Go Wolves. They're the Marine army I'd be tempted to start after Grey Knights.
SW are the only Space Marine army I'll play. I only started one after this codex came out because I wanted to make sure the army played well. This codex solidified my desire to finally play an Imperial army. All of the units have flavor and perform well as long as you don't ask them to do something they shouldn't be doing. There may be a few pointing issues here and there, but I think when you look at the book as a whole, its all pretty well internally balanced.
Personally, I rather dig the whole TWC idea. It makes just as much sense to me as something like Blood Crushers, Rough Riders, or Kroot-ox riders. Biological mounts really have no place in a Sci-fi setting with lasers and 100 tons of grinding metal. But since GW has that presidence and has had it for such a long time it really doesn't seem so out of place right now. My biggest hang-up with them is the models. No one has produced a model yet that looks like what they should. Where are the armor plates to keep the 3+ armor save. Where are the hydrolics and cyber implants to show structure strengthing so the beast can support the weight of a SM. I think this is why I'm going to convert mine from Juggernaughts. They have the armor, they have the size. Its just going to require a lot of green stuff to make it look wolf under that armor.
It also helps that the codex cover is one of the more badass covers that GW has put out in a long time. You can just feel the intensity of the Wolf Lord on the cover as he has taken a personal interest in gutting what ever it is he is closing on. The fluff was fun to read and is actually fair. Hell there is even a few stories where the Wolves lost an engagement. I agree with the above poster when he states that SW consider it an honor to fight along side anyone fighting for the Empire. Not the other way around like it would be for most other space marines.
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Post by: asimo77
I wonder how you feel about the bit in the SW dex where the Ecclesiarchy went to investigate their fool asses and the SW opened fire. Then the ecclesiarchy basically let it slide and left. I think this is one of the most annoying pieces of fluff ever because while the SW are sticking to their lame "stick it to the man" crap, they are messing with the fluff of other groups.
The Ecclesiarchy stories make them out to be the Spanish Inquisition on steroids, they should have glassed Fenris and declared the entire chapter heretics. This is as bad as the SM codex stating everyone wants to be an Ultramarine.
I don't like when a codex interefers with the background of other factions. Any thoughts?
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Post by: Araenion
I loved it. Basically, Space Wolves said "Don't stick your noses where they don't belong" and the Ecclesiarchy picked up on the clue and left. They could hardly just declare a holy crusade against one of the most popular chapters in the Imperium. But you can bet they didn't forget or forgive the Wolves for this.
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Post by: Jayden63
asimo77 wrote:I wonder how you feel about the bit in the SW dex where the Ecclesiarchy went to investigate their fool asses and the SW opened fire. Then the ecclesiarchy basically let it slide and left. I think this is one of the most annoying pieces of fluff ever because while the SW are sticking to their lame "stick it to the man" crap, they are messing with the fluff of other groups.
The Ecclesiarchy stories make them out to be the Spanish Inquisition on steroids, they should have glassed Fenris and declared the entire chapter heretics. This is as bad as the SM codex stating everyone wants to be an Ultramarine.
I don't like when a codex interefers with the background of other factions. Any thoughts?
They didn't just let it slide. They sent three orders of sisters into Frensian space and tried to take the Fang by force. Its a marvel that they held out for three weeks against one of the most fortified planets in the Imperium.
Fenris and in part the Fang always has been one of the top two most defensible positions in existence.
I just don't see it as the Ecclesirchy letting it be, they got their ass whipped and recognized a loosing position, then did the smart thing and withdrew.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Araenion wrote:I loved it. Basically, Space Wolves said "Don't stick your noses where they don't belong" and the Ecclesiarchy picked up on the clue and left. They could hardly just declare a holy crusade against one of the most popular chapters in the Imperium. But you can bet they didn't forget or forgive the Wolves for this.
Everyone loves the wolves!
They get drunk and act like Vikings + Americans + Werewolves = Space Wolves?
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Post by: asimo77
Well from the stuff I've read the Ecclesiarchy seem a little more stubborn than just leaving after 3 weeks. Just consider the concept of exterminatus, they love overreacting.
Vikings + Frat Boys=Fail
Their only redeeming factor is that they treat other IoM soldiers/citizens well, but if I'm not mistaken Salamanders and Ravenguard already do that without sucking.
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Post by: Jayden63
Asherian Command wrote:Araenion wrote:I loved it. Basically, Space Wolves said "Don't stick your noses where they don't belong" and the Ecclesiarchy picked up on the clue and left. They could hardly just declare a holy crusade against one of the most popular chapters in the Imperium. But you can bet they didn't forget or forgive the Wolves for this.
Everyone loves the wolves!
They get drunk and act like Vikings + Americans + Werewolves = Space Wolves?
I think most people like the idea behind the SW, if not entirely the execution. They are the rebels of the SM. They act by their own rules, they fight how they want, and they still get to be the good guys that you can root for.
Some may not like the whole viking in space, some may not like the silly equipment naming, some may not like the fluff. But the idea of the rogue, follows his own rules, good guy is hard to dislike, I think thats why SW have always maintained their fan base and popularity.
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Post by: asimo77
I've always thought they were the anti-thesis of the stereotypical greasy neck beard that plays 40k, i.e. the frat guy. They drink all the time, are "down with the man", get into brawls, are popular, even that Lukas guy has numerous sexual liasons with women. Why this is appealing I don't know, both archetypes are terrible and shallow.
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Post by: Wiglaf
I´m about to buy an entire SW force, and I´m not very fond of most marine chapters, but theyre just -as someone stated before- the only imperial force that I could ever play without feeling filthy.
Asherian Command wrote:
Everyone loves the wolves!
They get drunk and act like Vikings + Americans + Werewolves = Space Wolves?
You mad? Quite the opposite, actually.
Automatically Appended Next Post: asimo77 wrote:I've always thought they were the anti-thesis of the stereotypical greasy neck beard that plays 40k, i.e. the frat guy. They drink all the time, are "down with the man", get into brawls, are popular, even that Lukas guy has numerous sexual liasons with women. Why this is appealing I don't know, both archetypes are terrible and shallow.
Yeah, why someone would want to be an alpha macho who get all the wimmin in the fictional world ? what a nonsense.
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Post by: asimo77
More like boorish, inbred, womanizing idiots. Attacking 1ksons for no reason anyone? Actually its funny I mention that because the 1ksons kinda reminded me of the nerd empowered fantasy, and the fact that the SW are their nemisis is kinda fitting given their d-bag, broski persona.
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Post by: Manchu
asimo77 wrote:More like boorish, inbred, womanizing idiots. Attacking 1ksons for no reason anyone? Actually its funny I mention that because the 1ksons kinda reminded me of the nerd empowered fantasy, and the fact that the SW are their nemisis is kinda fitting given their d-bag, broski persona.
Oof major fluff failure here.
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Post by: asimo77
Didn't they go after Prospero without orders or something? I mean you could you know try to educate me instead of being a jerk.
Free me from my ignorance oh great one.
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Post by: Chongara
I like the "Wolf of the Wofling Wolf Wolf" stuff to a certian excent actually. It sort of reminds me of those old "Power Thirst" videos, just with wolves, in space. Which is reall the kind of thing I lilke about space marines as a whole.
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Post by: asimo77
Ok it seems to be that Horus tricked Russ or something, but they are still nemises (sp?) are they not?
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Post by: Manchu
(1) SW have the reputation of being quite empathetic to mortals, as Melissa noted, not "boorish womanizers" or "d-bag broskis."
(2) Convinced that he rather than the Emperor was in the right concerning sorcery, Magnus broke the Emperor's direct command at Nikaea to send psychic warning of Horus's impending treachery from Prospero. This sorcery wrecked a rather important experiment the Emprah was running at the time involving the Webway, allowing daemons to invade the Palace. Old fluff (Index Astartes) has that the Emprah ordered Russ (who was standing right beside him) to go kill Magnus. New fluff apparently has Big E telling Horus to tell Russ to capture Magnus and bring him bound to Terra but Horus instead tells Russ that the Emperor wanted Magnus dead.
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Post by: Melissia
The Space Wolves are the most loyal of all chapters aside from the Grey Knights themselves. Despite their misgivings, the Ecclesiarchy would have a hard time supporting a protracted war against the Wolves.
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Post by: asimo77
I think I just have a deeply seeded hatred for anything viking-esque. I think one must have stolen my bottle as a baby.
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Post by: Melissia
I like them, but that's probably from playing too much Lost Vikings in my childhood.
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Post by: Asherian Command
asimo77 wrote:More like boorish, inbred, womanizing idiots.
Thats the Emperors Childern
Attacking 1ksons for no reason anyone?
They were under orders. BY THE EMPEROR
Actually its funny I mention that because the 1ksons kinda reminded me of the nerd empowered fantasy,
*facepalm*
they are Egyptians...
Who want to learn everything in their lust for knowledge they damn themselves
and the fact that the SW are their nemisis is kinda fitting given their d-bag, broski persona.
Fail
Sorry. But that theory is wrong. They are not D-bags. Of all the chapters ever created. The Space wolves are the strongest and honor imperial soldiers.
Broski persona? That is misspelled wrong. Do you mean Brockie Persona? Like Macho?
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Post by: Manchu
The loyalty of the Grey Knights seems more programmed and thus less authentic to me.
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Post by: Melissia
I could say the same thing about every Space Marine chapter. But the Grey Knights are the only one who, officially, have had not a single Marine turn to Chaos or be corrupted by Chaos. Their loyalty is completely unquestioned.
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Post by: Manchu
Is there a fallen Black Templar? Or are we going by the codex needing to say "none have fallen"? Because the codices say a lot of things. Like how Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons will each individually wipe out all other factions.
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Post by: Araenion
Melissia wrote:I could say the same thing about every Space Marine chapter. But the Grey Knights are the only one who, officially, have had not a single Marine turn to Chaos or be corrupted by Chaos. Their loyalty is completely unquestioned.
And this is why the Wolves are my favourite SM chapter. They are loyal to a fault, but not because they think they must, but because it's the honourable thing to do.
They've certainly disobeyed their fair share of orders because they thought them unjust.
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Post by: Melissia
Manchu wrote:Is there a fallen Black Templar?
I would say yes, there have been Black Tempars that have, likely individually, fallen to Chaos. And Space Wolves. And Ultramarines. And so on.
Individuals at a time, rather than entire squads or companies. But they're still there. Possibly disappearing after a battle, or their body is never found after a defeat against the forces of Chaos, they're assume to still be fighting the Enemy but in truth...
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Post by: asimo77
Yikes sorry for insulting the space furries Asherian but I was impressing my view of the typical frat boy which is kinda how I've always seen the SW designed as.
If you want to get into semantics and be obtuse then they aren't Egyptians, they are space sorcerers from a fictional universe. I think you mean egyptian inspired.
I also corrected myself on the attacking Prospero bit, sorry for not memorizing the entirety of this particular plastic men's background.
The "d-bag broski" thing was me attempting to crack into the vernacular so as to express my view of SW being party boys, maybe I'm not up to date with my slang but isn't "broski" synonomous with a "partying college kid"? Maybe I should watch the Big Lebowski again.
Instead of describing 1k sons as the nerd fantasy maybe it's better to point out that they are obsessed with learning and are aloof; while SW are party fiends and popular with the common man. In other words, opposites of each other.
People seem to like the wolves because of their "stick it to the man" and constant good times shtick (did I get that right?) which from what I gather implies some sort of fantasy or wish fufillment from the fans i.e. they wish they were the popular cool dudes in space fighting their oppresive governemt. Now if we take the idea of SM chapters/legions being a fantasy for different kinds of people, I think the "empowered nerd" fits the 1ksons better than any other group.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Lost Vikings ftw
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Post by: Namica
Melissia wrote:I could say the same thing about every Space Marine chapter. But the Grey Knights are the only one who, officially, have had not a single Marine turn to Chaos or be corrupted by Chaos. Their loyalty is completely unquestioned.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Grey Knights so damned loyal because they've had their memory wiped and put through comical levels of training? It's unquestioned loyalty because they have no humanity.
Also, Space Wolves just remind me how damned awesome it would be to have a Salamanders Army. They are very alike, Salamanders and Space Wolves. Easily the most "human" of the chapters (can't salamanders even have families?), and are generally loved by all. Hell, they likely don't have their own army but rather a special character in SM codex simply because they are to alike to space wolves.
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Post by: Araenion
asimo77 wrote:People seem to like the wolves because of their "stick it to the man" and constant good times shtick (did I get that right?) which from what I gather implies some sort of fantasy or wish fufillment from the fans i.e. they wish they were the popular cool dudes in space fighting their oppresive governemt. Now if we take the idea of SM chapters/legions being a fantasy for different kinds of people, I think the "empowered nerd" fits the 1ksons better than any other group.
Oh dear...and we can't possibly like the Wolves because we might be coming from a Nordic country(which I'm not, but since we're already generalising...) and we love the fluff inspired by our ancestry, or that we always had a fascination with Vikings? Or that the prospect of unruly, fair-hearted rebel spirits fascinates us as persons, not as wannabe frat-boys. Then again, all of us here are playing 40k, so we must all be greasy Cartmans with beards. And that naturally goes for the chicks too, however disturbing the image might be.
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Post by: asimo77
I don't know why anyone would want to embrace vikings, considering they just went around pillaging and causing a ruckus. And unfortunatley the stereotype of the tabletop gamer is a greasy neckbeard.
And what's wrong with bearded ladies? That's discrimination man!
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Post by: Namica
asimo77 wrote:I don't know why anyone would want to embrace vikings, considering they just went around pillaging and causing a ruckus. And unfortunatley the stereotype of the tabletop gamer is a greasy neckbeard.
And what's wrong with bearded ladies? That's discrimination man!
The appeal is most likely rooted in the manly nature that Vikings personify. They drink, they have muscle, they have facial hair on their facial hair. This coupled with gods who were human like without being complete sex fiends (like the greek/roman gods) makes for a culture that not only seems relate able, but also a culture that someone can still strive towards being similar to. It's a shame people get it mixed up a slight bit, thinking that Vikings were fighting to be powerful badasses, rather than fighting for their families and honor, which has led to people to relate vikings with frat culture, heavy metal culture, and muscle culture. I mean for christs sake, they were one of the only European cultures that had fighting women, why is it people forget crap like this and instead replace it with crap like "they have horn helmets" which isn't true.
EDIT:
Really, space wolves aren't that viking-ish. For instance, Wolves weren't venerated, Wolves were feared creatures with the lead wolf being what is to devour the damned world.
Vikings weren't rebels, they were fighters during certain seasons and farmers in others. The only thing viking like in Space Wolves, is the idea of drinking halls and the strong sense of brotherhood, which honestly, you'll find in any culture with famed warriors.
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Post by: Araenion
Calling a female version of Cartman with a beard disturbing is discriminatory? Then I am indeed a whatever you want to call me.
As for the Vikings, because they are one of the ancient, influential culture of the old Europe. And just like any other such culture, it has its fans. Automatically Appended Next Post: Namica wrote:It's a shame people get it mixed up a slight bit, thinking that Vikings were fighting to be powerful badasses, rather than fighting for their families and honor, which has led to people to relate vikings with frat culture, heavy metal culture, and muscle culture. I mean for christs sake, they were one of the only European cultures that had fighting women, why is it people forget crap like this and instead replace it with crap like "they have horn helmets" which isn't true.
And there we go again with generalisations...actually, they fought primarily for resources, because Scandinavia was and still is a largely rugged, inhospitable country, scarce of farmland. But they were excellent fishermen and sailors and built sturdy ships, so they raided instead of farming and cultivating crops. Which, naturally, bred them to be more of a fighting sort than the surrounding nations, or at least to be remembered as such in the eyes of history. But they were indeed badasses nonetheless.
And the reason Vikings are associated with heavy metal is because Nordic countries have the greatest abundance of heavy metal bands anywhere in the world. Headbanging is almost a part of their folklore.
As for the frat culture...I wouldn't know. In this part of the Europe at least, fraternities only exist on telly, and is a bit of comical relief to students here.
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Post by: 1hadhq
asimo77 wrote:
Also Lost Vikings ftw
asimo77 wrote:I don't know why anyone would want to embrace vikings!
So Vikings = or  ?
Maybe Hägar FTW too?
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Back to the codex:
The TWc are P.Kellys fault alone. But we've seen the M.ward treatment too ( SM, BA ).
I'd guess the top 5 is:
- IG
- orks
- WH
- eldar
- SM
29408
Post by: Melissia
If you want to say "vikings did horrible things so they're not cool", then there is no such thing as a cool people.
Christian knights? Yep, they did plenty of horrible things. Mongols? Oh yeah. THe germanic tribes? Yep. The Arabic armies under the likes of Saladin and other such heroes? Yes. And so on and so forth. All modern armies have their occasional Manchu notes an error in the word filter, and medieval armies were certainly no exception.
35290
Post by: Namica
I'm guessing
Eldar
WH
SM
IG
Orks
In that order. Eldar I can see having to much tunnel vision, WH having good concept poor execution, SM for their solid play but lul stories. IG for being the everyman army (lots of personality), and Orks for being a fun concept in sci-fi while still fitting in.
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Post by: Flaming_Spider
Namica wrote:Orks for being a fun concept in sci-fi while still fitting in.
And it's this exact thing that causes me to have such a problem with Orks. They don't fit in because they are fun. This is the darkest of dark universes, it doesn't need comedic relief. If the Orks were less goofy, I would be more ok with them, but as of now, they seem to exist only to provide stupid jokes and lame aesthetics. I know they will never remove Orks from the game, they are way to popular, and they do have their place, I just wish GW would make them more serious, the terrifying, numberless monsters they're supposed to be, not a bunch of idiots that are trying to be "funny."
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Post by: Melissia
Orks ARE dark. You're just not looking beyond the surface to the true horror of the Ork menace.
35290
Post by: Namica
Flaming_Spider wrote:Namica wrote:Orks for being a fun concept in sci-fi while still fitting in.
And it's this exact thing that causes me to have such a problem with Orks. They don't fit in because they are fun. This is the darkest of dark universes, it doesn't need comedic relief. If the Orks were less goofy, I would be more ok with them, but as of now, they seem to exist only to provide stupid jokes and lame aesthetics. I know they will never remove Orks from the game, they are way to popular, and they do have their place, I just wish GW would make them more serious, the terrifying, numberless monsters they're supposed to be, not a bunch of idiots that are trying to be "funny."
You want them to be more serious? If you make them more serious, they'd just be IG with more muscle and bad vehicles. They are plenty "serious" when you consider many of the implications of the culture. Think how many Orks die, how many worlds die to Orks. Remember that they do have a society, a primitive society, but one that works. They are able to have this while still fitting in simply because every other race damn near forces you to take it WAY to seriously. Orks are the norm, others are the extreme.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Namica wrote:If you make them more serious, they'd just be IG with more muscle and bad vehicles.
No they wouldn't. Guard doesn't have anti-tank lightning guns, or guns which transport things into other things, or nine foot tall nobz which can sneak around as well as any Eldar, or huge TDA-quality armor, and so on and so forth. Orks have plenty to separate them from Guard.
Orks don't need to be "funny" to be cool. I think they're inherently cool.
35290
Post by: Namica
Melissia wrote:Namica wrote:If you make them more serious, they'd just be IG with more muscle and bad vehicles.
No they wouldn't. Guard doesn't have anti-tank lightning guns, or guns which transport things into other things, or nine foot tall nobz which can sneak around as well as any Eldar, or huge TDA-quality armor, and so on and so forth. Orks have plenty to separate them from Guard.
Orks don't need to be "funny" to be cool. I think they're inherently cool.
I mean from a fluff stand point, of course as an army they are incredibly different. Without their more carefree life style, as an army, they'd likely be nameless soldiers fighting the good fight against someone ala the IG.
In other words, Ork society is based around not being serious, it's based around making the most out of life. Making them serious would make them something other than Orks.
29408
Post by: Melissia
No, I'm fairly certain Orks take war very seriously. War is their life, their purpose, their love, their addiction, their raison d'être. They do everything they can to make war, and they give it their all for the sake of war, and winning. Their mindset is very alien to us, but that does not mean that they are not serious about what they do.
35290
Post by: Namica
Melissia wrote:No, I'm fairly certain Orks take war very seriously. War is their life, their purpose, their love, their addiction, their raison d'être. They do everything they can to make war, and they give it their all for the sake of war, and winning. Their mindset is very alien to us, but that does not mean that they are not serious about what they do.
True enough, I've just always seen war, for Orks, to be a big game. Sure, they do take it seriously, but they are in it for the fun of it, unlike every other race in WH40K which is either in to conquer, defend, or terrorize.
I think I got serious mixed up with something else. I mean Orks are simple, you can't make them to complex (culture wise) or they'll lose what their focus is: A good fight.
EDIT: Heh, this train of thought is starting to push my first army choice closer to Orks. Nids still seem to be ahead in the score card in my mind though.
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Post by: Manchu
Well, it's either IG or Orks for numero uno on this list. And I'm currently leaning to IG despite all this waxing poetic about greenskins.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Oh, Orks have a culture outside of war. But it's usually about preparing for war.
"Kiss the face-eating squigs" competitions, races (shooting at the drivers is perfectly acceptable), brawls and fighting competitions, betting on the former, their own pair of religions (Which constantly fight eachother), their own styles of beer brewing (fungus beer, which is actually reasonable because certain kinds of fungus indeed perform alcohol fermentation as part of their biological process of generating energy), and so on.
35290
Post by: Namica
Melissia wrote:Oh, Orks have a culture outside of war. But it's usually about preparing for war.
"Kiss the face-eating squigs" competitions, races (shooting at the drivers is perfectly acceptable), brawls and fighting competitions, betting on the former, their own pair of religions (Which constantly fight eachother), their own styles of beer brewing (fungus beer, which is actually reasonable because certain kinds of fungus indeed perform alcohol fermentation as part of their biological process of generating energy), and so on.
Like I said, their focus is: A Good Fight XD everything in their culture is about having a good fight. Betting which leads to fights, racing which leads to fights, drinking which leads to fights. I don't think I've ever heard of an Ork doing something that wasn't about leading to a fight.
29408
Post by: Melissia
I could say the same thing about humans in general, but let's leave that for another thread.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Namica wrote:Melissia wrote:Oh, Orks have a culture outside of war. But it's usually about preparing for war.
"Kiss the face-eating squigs" competitions, races (shooting at the drivers is perfectly acceptable), brawls and fighting competitions, betting on the former, their own pair of religions (Which constantly fight eachother), their own styles of beer brewing (fungus beer, which is actually reasonable because certain kinds of fungus indeed perform alcohol fermentation as part of their biological process of generating energy), and so on.
Like I said, their focus is: A Good Fight XD everything in their culture is about having a good fight. Betting which leads to fights, racing which leads to fights, drinking which leads to fights. I don't think I've ever heard of an Ork doing something that wasn't about leading to a fight.
What about classy orcs? Automatically Appended Next Post: 600 post is mine
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