Seaward wrote:I'll have to take Manchu's side on this one. I also haven't read the Omnibus, because...well, obvious reasons, but the DH 'dex and their general fluff makes them out to pretty exclusively be the daemon fighters of the Ordo Malleus.

If there's stuff in the Omnibus that does in fact state that they get deployed out to fight rebellions and orks and tyrannids and Tau all the time, that may change things.

Not all the time, no. I never said they do it as much as they hunt daemons.

Just that hunting daemons isn't the entirety of what they do.

Manchu wrote:@SaintHazard: But if we only use codices for canon, I shudder to think of what that means for Sisters.

Same goes for BL, actually, as Eumerin points out.

@KC: Partners in crime +++ ENFORCING THE EMPEROR'S WILL +++ more like.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

Yeah, I love them. Why they don't seem to be around in M41 is quite the mystery . . .

Reading Tales of Heresy right now. don't spoil it for me

Chongara wrote:I thought one could be seen as a radical for doing anything another inqustioner saw as imporer, even if it had nothing do with Chaos. From using Xenotech, to wearing your Aqullia belt-buckle the wrong way. Depending on the exact disposition of the person calling you radical is.

Radical is a pretty specific pejorative. Most generally, it means employing the means of methods of the various enemies of the Imperium to fight them. To Puritans, this inevitably implies taint of mind and spirit and sometimes also body.

Or Eldar. Or Dark Eldar. Or Orks. Honestly, in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war, races that don't exist just to attack the all-powerful Man Empire are a breath of fresh-air.

Araenion wrote:No, actually, those two factions are so OTT, they might just be realistic.

This statement doesn't make sense.

Araenion wrote: Quiet, scary, flesh-flaying machines of doom(yes, Necrons)...I was scared 15 years ago when Sarah Connor ran for her life from maraudering machines from the future. Or genetically-engineered overgrown space-locusts that want to eat all life! I'd feel threatened, if I were a cabbage. Same thing with Chaos. They want to eat our souls. My oh my, I better start praying.

This has nothing to do with the exaggerated awesomeness. This has to do with the kind of threat they pose.

And the threat of being eaten is probably greater than the threat of having a grot teleported into your body.

Araenion wrote:I'm deliberately extravaganting here, just so to get a point across. I have nothing against any of these factions, but their threat to humanity is so blown out of proportions that I can't really take them seriously, ironic as that may seem.

As opposed to the Orks, who cover half the galaxy and are claimed to be potentially the strongest force, or the IG, who number in the trillions.

Araenion wrote:Now Orks are the misunderstood teen gangstas of the universe, not really evil, just at odds(bloody ones) with the rest of the galaxy. And Guardsmen are your rank-and-file troops, with no special heritage or physical enhancement, just out there fighting for their country. Or galactic empire. Whatever. I can relate to both without trying too hard.

How does this have anything to do with having exaggerated awesome moments?

Araenion wrote:Now, I haven't read any books or such. And I don't think I should feel obligated to, just to make a valid argument. I've read every codex apart from DA and BT ones, though, so I think that gives me enough insight to know how I feel about particular factions.

You do realize that an ork once drove a motorcycle through the void shields/cockpit of a titan, right?

Your original statement is this.

Araenion wrote:They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Now, please, explain how the hell the Orks don't have an exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Isn't the very definition of radical to vye for(often maligned) change?

Manchu wrote:

Chongara wrote:I thought one could be seen as a radical for doing anything another inqustioner saw as imporer, even if it had nothing do with Chaos. From using Xenotech, to wearing your Aqullia belt-buckle the wrong way. Depending on the exact disposition of the person calling you radical is.

Radical is a pretty specific pejorative. Most generally, it means employing the means of methods of the various enemies of the Imperium to fight them. To Puritans, this inevitable implies taint of mind and spirit and sometimes also body.

Hardline Puritans are as dispised as extremely radical Radicals. Then of course they hate each other and the ones that hate them. There's plenty of hate to go around. HATE!

Manchu: No more spam, please. It's against DakkaDakka Rules. Thanks!

Ahh, I understand. It was sorta on topic in a loose way, but I promise to be a good boy. Sometimes I forget every two years or so.

I've seen that before but it fits perfectly for this.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Hardline Puritans are as dispised as extremely radical Radicals.

Maybe but not because they are suspected of dealings with daemons, traitors, mutants, or aliens.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Hardline Puritans are as dispised as extremely radical Radicals.

Maybe but not because they are suspected of dealings with daemons, traitors, mutants, or aliens.

No, but they burn entire worlds on suspicion that some kid on the planet may have said the word Khorne (when really he probably just said Corn).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, but they burn entire worlds on suspicion that some kid on the planet may have said the word Khorne (when really he probably just said Corn).

What was that???

But seriously, who exactly are you saying hates them?

Manchu wrote:

Chongara wrote:I thought one could be seen as a radical for doing anything another inqustioner saw as imporer, even if it had nothing do with Chaos. From using Xenotech, to wearing your Aqullia belt-buckle the wrong way. Depending on the exact disposition of the person calling you radical is.

Radical is a pretty specific pejorative. Most generally, it means employing the means of methods of the various enemies of the Imperium to fight them. To Puritans, this inevitably implies taint of mind and spirit and sometimes also body.

Well I'm not in front of any of my sources right now so I can't double check, but I thought it was a bit more general than that (Yeah the belt buckle thing was a bit of OTT hyberbole).

Even going with that definition though, it certainly doesn't mean a radical inherently has something to do with the ruinous powers. Fighting Xenos with Xenos or Xenotech would clearly qualify under that definition, even if said Xenos were fairly detached from the warp (Say, Tau).


EDIT:( Obviously the Aliens vs Aliens example doesn't quite apply to Ordos Mallues in most cases, unless the Alien conflict might somewhere interfere or stop Chaos forces in some way. But Radical does't automatically mean the tools stem from the Ruinous Powers though they can, and often would in this case.)

Necroman wrote:Your original statement is this.

Araenion wrote:They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Now, please, explain how the hell the Orks don't have an exaggerated awesomeness to them.

They do. By far the most out of all races. Thing is, this sort of exaggerated awesomeness is positive. It makes me laugh. I can completely imagine a blood-crazed beast-of-war charging his bike onto a towering machine monstrosity, bellowing a mighty cry of war, knowing his death has come and savouring the moment of his ultimate glory. What would make it Mary Sue is if he actually survived the exploding Titan's death throb. I was ironic in expressing my distaste for the so-called "awesomeness" of other races.

Tyranids are so powerful, so mighty, so plentiful, so overwhelmingly threatening(reading their codex makes them look this way) that you are left suprised how the hell did they lose every single major battle that they fought against Imperium? Then you realise that they were fighting against Space Marines and then you understand it's just a smaller Mary Sue trying to throttle a bigger one. As I said, I have nothing against this, it's all part of the awe-inspiring intergallactic battleground.

Still, you have to admire people with a bit more simpler, down-to-earth goals than: "RAWR! I'll eat your hearts(both of them) and suck the marrow from your bones; then I'll turn you into a pile of geen goo and grow you back into an overgrown bug for my space-locust army that will rule over all the galaxy! And I have no reason to do it, but I will! Just because!" or "I hate all life! I am going to cleanse all galaxy of it and feed on its essence! Muahahaha! And I have created my own army of mindless machines to help me do it! Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the evilest of them all? *flexes*"

Orks just want to fight, because "fightin' iz wat we do best!. Comparing them to a bunch of football-fan hooligans is truly apt. You wouldn't call a drunken cockney Mary, would you? And Guardsmen just want to survive in a very hostile galaxy. It's what any normal person would do.

Chongara wrote:But Radical does't automatically mean the tools stem from the Ruinous Powers though they can, and often would in this case.

Yes, as I said, it most generally means that they are using the tools of enemies of the Imperium (I could clarify further: or simply using the enemies of the Imperium) to fight the enemies of the Imperium. The most famous are the Xanthites, like the Relictors, who favor the use of the Warp to fight the Warp.

Araenion wrote:They do. By far the most out of all races. Thing is, this sort of exaggerated awesomeness is positive. It makes me laugh. I can completely imagine a blood-crazed beast-of-war charging his bike onto a towering machine monstrosity, bellowing a mighty cry of war, knowing his death has come and savouring the moment of his ultimate glory. What would make it Mary Sue is if he actually survived the exploding Titan's death throb.

He did.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wazdakka_Gutzmek
You were saying?

Araenion wrote: I was ironic in expressing my distaste for the so-called "awesomeness" of other races.

Why do I get the feeling you're just trying to cover your tracks?

Araenion wrote:Tyranids are so powerful, so mighty, so plentiful, so overwhelmingly threatening(reading their codex makes them look this way) that you are left suprised how the hell did they lose every single major battle that they fought against Imperium? Then you realise that they were fighting against Space Marines and then you understand it's just a smaller Mary Sue trying to throttle a bigger one.

ALL THE CODEXES DO THAT, INCLUDING THE ORK CODEX.

Araenion wrote: As I said, I have nothing against this, it's all part of the awe-inspiring intergallactic battleground. Still, you have to admire people with a bit more simpler, down-to-earth goals than: "RAWR! I'll eat your hearts(both of them) and suck the marrow from your bones then I'll turn you into pasta and make you into an overgrown bug for my space-locust army that will rule over all the galaxy! And I have no reason to do it, but I will! Just because!" or "I hate all life! I am going to cleanse all galaxy of life and feed on their essence! Muahahaha! And I have created my own army of mindless machines to help me do it! Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the evilest of them all? *flexes*"

What's more simple and down-to-earth than simple instinct and hunger?

Your "down-to-earth" army consists of 8 foot tall green killing machines with no capacity for empathy and the ability to construct complex technology out of scrap metal.

Araenion wrote: Orks just want to fight, because "fightin' iz wat we do best!. Comparing them to a bunch of football-fan hooligans is truly apt. You wouldn't call a drunken cockney Mary, would you? And Imperial Guard just wants to survive in a very hostile galaxy. It's what any normal person would do.

This has nothing to do with being a mary sue.

And no, I don't think orks are a mary sue race (Space Marines are probably the only ones who count). However, the idea that they're somehow less ridiculous or exaggerated or wanked than any other faction in the setting just doesn't make sense. Same with the Imperial Guard.

I don't know why you get the feeling I'm covering my tracks...I wasn't aware I should try and cover them in the first place...maybe I should? Is there a stalker tailing me? Is it you? :O

And admittedly Wazdakka is a Mary Sue then. Or, stupidly exaggeratedly awesome, if you think Mary Sue term shouldn't be used in this context. That entry still made me laugh.

Since when did hungry beasts try to take over the galaxy? I mean, if hunger is the only thing that drives them, let them settle some big planet and learn to be a part of its eco-system. They are described as superbly adaptable, why is this not possible for them? Why must they hunt humans because they're hungry? If the swarm had another goal apart from being "hungry" then I'd think more of them.

Take a look at Zerg in Starcraft. Obvious copy of Tyranids, but they gave the Overmind a higher purpose than just eating everything. It was rated as one of the best villains of sci-fi. And you can bet it wasn't because it was "hungry".

Threat of the Orks isn't thrown into your face like it is with Tyranids and Necrons. They are terrifying because of how they are described(their canon, as it were), not because GW simply wrote they are. Tyranids aren't terrifying at all, except that sometime in the future, they just might win a few battles and conquer the galaxy. For no other reason than because they're "hungry".

I like the Ork fluff. Sure, it can be crazy (as in clinically insane) at most points but that's what I love about it. In a Sci-Fi setting where every race has that sort of "THEY WILL ULTIMATELY WIN" line about them (the Tyranids, in my opinion, are most guilty of this) the Orks' big line is somewhat more simple and perhaps less doomsday-related:
"Orks was born ter fight."
Admittedly, there is the whole thing about them uniting and swarming all over the galaxy, but that is counterbalanced by their belligerence in the fluff, in that such a unity is very unlikely. This, I feel makes them more likeable than many of the other races.

Exactly, Gorskar. Orks can have a wide range of personality. What can a Tyranid swarm player do to give the swarm personality? They're still just a bunch of hungry beasts existing simply because the Imperium needs it to exist. So Space Marines have someone suitably "horrific" to fight. As long as they have no personality, no goal, other than simply being a threat, in my eyes they'll always remain just yet another bad guy that always loses because it has no other purpose but to lose. Same with Necrons.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:In a Sci-Fi setting where every race has that sort of "THEY WILL ULTIMATELY WIN" line about them

Except the Craftworld Eldar. They're all doomed!

DOOMED!!!

Actually, DOOMED is any unit that happens to be caught within 24" of my Farseer, thankyouverymuch.

Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, Sisters of Battle, and Tau are the only organizations in the fluff who don't seem to always be "the bestest and awesomest in the galaxy!!!!"

Araenion wrote:And admittedly Wazdakka is a Mary Sue then. Or, stupidly exaggeratedly awesome, if you think Mary Sue term shouldn't be used in this context. That entry still made me laugh.

I don't think he's a Mary Sue, but he's definitely an example of how extremely over-the-top orks can be.

Araenion wrote:Since when did hungry beasts try to take over the galaxy? I mean, if hunger is the only thing that drives them, let them settle some big planet and learn to be a part of its eco-system. They are described as superbly adaptably, why is this not possible for them? Why must they hunt humans because they're hungry? If the swarm had another goal apart from being "hungry" then I'd think more of them.

The swarm's only goal is to survive and reproduce. They won't be able to reproduce on just one planet, now, will they?

Araenion wrote:Take a look at Zerg in Starcraft. Obvious copy of Tyranids, but they gave the Overmind a higher purpose than just eating everything. It was rated as one of the best villains of sci-fi. And you cam bet it wasn't because it was "hungry".

The Zerg are an intelligent species with a definite goal. The tyranids are supposed to be a bunch of animals, guided by an animalistic mind. Of course they're going to be different.

And who the hell voted the Overmind one of the best villains of sci-fi?

Araenion wrote:Threat of the Orks isn't thrown into your face like it is with Tyranids and Necrons. They are terrifying because of how they are described(their canon, as it were), not because GW simply wrote they are. Tyranids aren't terrifying at all, except that sometime in the future, they just might win a few battles and conquer the galaxy. For no other reason than because they're "hungry".

I personally think the Tyranids are terrifying because of how they're described: Unwavering hoards without a gleam of intelligence that don't even know anything beyond the urge to kill and feed. They're scary because of the idea that when they kill you, they don't feel satisfaction, or anger, or anything; they don't feel anything. As for Necrons, I became a Necron fan because of their depiction in Caves of Ice. While the Orks in that book were vicious, brutal, and dangerous, they were a threat you knew how to deal with, and they were a threat that could be sidetracked. The Necrons? The only way to eventually stop them was blowing up the promethium mines.

Araenion wrote:Exactly, Gorskar. Orks can have a wide range of personality. What can a Tyranid swarm player do to give the swarm personality? They're still just a bunch of hungry beasts existing simply because the Imperium needs it to exist. So Space Marines have someone suitably "horrific" to fight. As long as they have no personality, no goal, other than simply being a threat, in my eyes they'll always remain just yet another bad guy that always loses because it has no other purpose but to lose. Same with Necrons.

I actually agree with this (Well, Orks don't have a wide range of personalities, but they do have a wide range of expressing their personalities). This also is part of what makes the Orks such a fun army to kustomize. However, with the most recent developments on Necron fluff, it looks like it'll be shifting more to give the individual lords more of a personality.

I'm sure you do. Their lack of intelligence makes them nothing more than beasts to be put down once their links to the hive mind are cut. Which is not as scary as Boyz, for whom every single one of them has the capability to become ma warboss...

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, but they burn entire worlds on suspicion that some kid on the planet may have said the word Khorne (when really he probably just said Corn).

What was that???

But seriously, who exactly are you saying hates them?

everyone.
The very mention of The Inquisition makes children cry. It's the Puritans that have given them that fearsome reputation.

Acolyte: "Heh, children these days, so easily scared, why, back in my day..."

Inquisitor: "Don't get started, Adept Josephine, I know where this is going."

Acolyte: "So, what or who is the 'boogy man' they referred to?"

Inquisitor: "Me."

Well, yes, expressing their personalities in different and verily insane ways does come easily to Orks, doesn't it.

I don't know, Hive Mind sounds plenty intelligent to me. And sure they could reproduce on a planet. Ants live just fine by reproducing through their queen. So do the bees and several other insect species. That's not why they aren't settling. They aren't settling because then they wouldn't be a threat to Mankind. *eyeroll*

I still have hope that the next Tyranid codex will reveal to us something else about them, something that makes the Tyranid swarm more than simple animals with a voracious apetite.

Originally I expressed myself in a subjective way and you called me out on it. Which is fine by me. But as it was just my personal taste, I stand by what I said. I think Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar are the best fleshed-out races when it comes to character outside of the usual sci-fi intergalactic conflict mumbojumbo. They all have their own personal agenda.

Fingers crossed that Necrons get their update soon and that they get the love they deserve. Because they really, trully need it. I mean, imagine what must be like, living without a soul, remembering nothing of your self, your past, your history, your culture...I'm thinking they just need a big, warm hug and they'll all be drinking and making merry in no time. With the grinning metal head of the Deceiver smiling at them on the table.


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And Tau! How could I have forgotten the Tau! Oh...probably because the rest of the galaxy gives them no attention either...but anyway. Yeah, Tau are pretty characterful too. Shame they're such irrelevancies in the galactic scale.

Araenion wrote:They aren't settling because then they wouldn't be a threat to Mankind. *eyeroll*

Actually if they settled, they'd be a bigger threat than they currently are.

Right now, the Hive Fleets are a big short-term threat, but once they're broken, they're shattered into many far smaller short-term threats. When the splinter fleets are dealt with, there's no more Tyranids.

A WAAAGH! is a big short-term threat, and once broken, it's a big long-term threat because the Orks will never stop coming back until the planet itself is cleansed through the purging fires of exterminatus.

The Tyranids are nothing more than a phase the galaxy's going through. The Orks? THey'll always be there. They'll always be a threat. They'll always be ready to smash down a sector and conquer it, as they have done through time memorial. One can most definitely rid the galaxy of Tyranids, by destroying their hive fleets. One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

Araenion wrote:
And Tau! How could I have forgotten the Tau! Oh...probably because the rest of the galaxy gives them no attention either...but anyway. Yeah, Tau are pretty characterful too. Shame they're such irrelevancies in the galactic scale.

Oh, those Tau. One day they'll learn that you can't be friends with everyone.

Well, yes, that was the point I was making...only in an unrelated way. About the tyranids. Just in case somebody failed to notice the sarcasm in my post. I'm rambling, do not mind me...

But yeah, luckily, Orks don't really care for world-domination. So that's their redeeming quality. Otherwise, I'm sure they'd be as faceless as the rest.


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And that last post was to Melissia...people here sure do reply fast!

Araenion wrote:I don't know, Hive Mind sounds plenty intelligent to me. And sure they could reproduce on a planet. Ants live just fine by reproducing through their queen. So do the bees and several other insect species. That's not why they aren't settling. They aren't settling because then they wouldn't be a threat to Mankind. *eyeroll*

The number of tyranids would go down if they settled on a single planet (Due to the ecosystem not being able to support them), and they would soon run out of food. Hence, they have to move to the next planet if they want to reproduce. The Tyranids are unable to construct a self-sustaining ecosystem without leeching resources.

The Hivemind is intelligent when it comes to tactics and strategy. When it comes to actual desires and emotions, however, it's nothing more than an animal.

Araenion wrote:I still have hope that the next Tyranid codex will reveal to us something else about them, something that makes the Tyranid swarm more than simple animals with a voracious apetite.

To me, that would take away much of what makes them scary and unique.

For example, if you gave actual intelligent thought to the aliens from the Alien movie series, would they be any more interesting? Not really.

Araenion wrote:Originally I expressed myself in a subjective way and you called me out on it. Which is fine by me. But as it was just my personal taste, I stand by what I said. I think Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar are the best fleshed-out races when it comes to character outside of the usual sci-fi intergalactic conflict mumbojumbo. They all have their own personal agenda.

And the other factions don't?

Araenion wrote:Fingers crossed that Necrons get their update soon and that they get the love they deserve. Because they really, trully need it. I mean, imagine what must be like, living without a soul, remembering nothing of your self, your past, your history, your culture...I'm thinking they just need a big, warm hug and they'll all be drinking and making merry in no time. With the grinning metal head of the Deceiver smiling at them on the table.

Yeah, well, here's to hoping that the next codex brings in some more independence from the C'tan.

I have no desire to have a codex filled with tree-hugging monstrosities worrying about keeping the galaxy at peace. But for them to be anything other than shallow bad guys, they really need to give them some agenda about while they're here, in our galaxy. Even if giving them a point of origin, something, anything, that personifies the race. As it is, they're excellent antagonists to other races. As seen in DoW2, for instance. But there has to be something greater behind the Hive Mind and such a oerfect predatorial machine that guides their hunger.

Aliens didn't want to conquer the galaxy. Besides, they mostly do have personalities, because they're trying to escape captivity from humans more than they actually try to eat them. Only in 8th Passenger is the Alien truly a predator and not prey. And besides, Aliens are excellent antagonists too, just as Tyranids. They wouldn't make good protagonists though, if all they wanted to do was eat people. Now, an Alien matriarch guarding her brood from invading humans? Now that's something solid. And every playable race should be given the courtesy of personality. As long as GW keeps them as this big, scary, heartless nightmarish thing without a purpose(except, like I mentioned, to eat people), Space Marines will keep on kicking their asses in the fluff.

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Araenion wrote:I have no desire to have a codex filled with tree-hugging monstrosities worrying about keeping the galaxy at peace. But for them to be anything other than shallow bad guys, they really need to give them some agenda about while they're here, in our galaxy. Even if giving them a point of origin, something, anything, that personifies the race. As it is, they're excellent antagonists to other races. As seen in DoW2, for instance. But there has to be something greater behind the Hive Mind and such a oerfect predatorial machine that guides their hunger.

Isn't that what they are supposed to be?

Araenion wrote:Aliens didn't want to conquer the galaxy. Besides, they mostly do have personalities, because they're trying to escape captivity from humans more than they actually try to eat them. Only in 8th Passenger is the Alien truly a predator and not prey.

You haven't watched the Alien film series, have you? They are NOT captives (Other than in that awful fourth film). They do not have identifiable personalities.

Araenion wrote: And besides, Aliens are antagonists. They wouldn't make a good protagonist. Which every playable race should be. Otherwise, they are, as I said, just fodder for Space Marine bolters.

The tyranids are supposed to be antagonists first and foremost. I don't see why they need to be good protagonists.

The only personality traits i can see in aliens is that they are catty as hell. always snaping at each other.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Good point, Araenion. The Hivemind is not much of a protagonist. It's difficult to sympathize much with the Nids goals. You could never write a worthwhile book about them from their point of view . . . or really much beyond a paragraph. And that's why their dex is written almost as an Ordo Xenos case file. But on the other hand, they are very interesting--like in the same way that you don't have to be an entomologist (or an insect, for that matter) to be fascinated by insects. I don't think a race needs to be a good protagonist to be worthwhile to play. Playing a game of 40k and writing a fanfic are pretty different things for most people.

I think the point of tyrnaids is to be a force of nature. Its the whole man versus nature story taken to the extremes. When you manifest the very concept of evolution and survival of the fittest into actual beings you get nids. It's essentially Charles Darwin trying to kill you in space.

Anyway you don't give a personality to a tornado or volcano or any other force of nature, it's what makes them so awe inspiring and terrifying.

Tyranids most assuredly are not a force of "nature".

Well how would you describe them then? They take the most basic objectives of all organisms: eat and reproduce, and they have nearly perfected it.

Necroman wrote:You haven't watched the Alien film series, have you? They are NOT captives (Other than in that awful fourth film). They do not have identifiable personalities.

I've watched them! Truly you insult me with that assumption! T'was a looong time ago, though...so I defer this point to you.

And when you are a Tyranid player, don't you expect your faction to count for something in GWs eyes, except fodder for the soldiers of the Imperium? I don't know, for me to ever consider liking Tyranid fluff, they should tell me something about them, something that makes me want to help them along their path to annihilating the galaxy(yes, pretty nihilistic thought, but you get what I mean). I don't care what it is, but I honestly don't see appeal in playing mindless meatgrinders.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

And SoBs are just as good in power armor as Space Marines.

I never said that, I said they can become that way. IE, their veterans are, what with being WS4, BS4, I4 while in their power armor.

Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

To Melissa's comment that Tyranids are not nature: Tyranids might be an extraterrestrial force that destroys ecosystems, but then again, so is a massive asteroid impact. And it's hard to deny that a massive asteroid impact is nature's work.

Araenion wrote:I've watched them! Truly you insult me with that assumption! T'was a looong time ago, though...so I defer this point to you.

Yeah, I was being a bit snappy there.

You should watch the first two again, they're awesome.

Araenion wrote:And when you are a Tyranid player, don't you expect your faction to count for something in GWs eyes, except fodder for the soldiers of the Imperium? I don't know, for me to ever consider liking Tyranid fluff, they should tell me something about them, something that makes me want to help them along their path to annihilating the galaxy(yes, pretty nihilistic thought, but you get what I mean). I don't care what it is, but I honestly don't see appeal in playing mindless meatgrinders.

Well, there must be some appeal; otherwise, people wouldn't play Tyranids in the first place.

Melissia wrote:I never said that, I said they can become that way. IE, their veterans are, what with being WS4, BS4, I4 while in their power armor.

Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

Actually, you said they can not only be just as good, they can actually be better.

GW fluff specifically disagrees with you on that count, pointing out that the lack of a black carapace is a pretty big deal for non-Astartes.

Melissia wrote:Veteran Sisters are a combat force to be reckoned with, surpassing human limits and capable of feats that become famous in myth and legend. Canoness Praxedes single-handedly killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat, for example.

And people still complain about Calgar punching out an avatar?

Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Less debate, more #3.

Well calgar is the god of war, says so in his rules

Manchu wrote:But on the other hand, they are very interesting--like in the same way that you don't have to be an entomologist to be fascinated by insects. I don't think a race needs to be a good protagonist to be worthwhile to play. Playing a game of 40k and writing a fanfic are pretty different things for most people.

As I said, I love their playstyle. The debate was sparked over why I thought they were not as well-personified as Orks or Eldar, however. And I don't rightly know the reason. I can't really get into an army simply because I like how they play. I could spend a few games with a Tyranid army and enjoy it, but dedicate my time and money collecting and painting the miniatures of something I don't like at all, except as intricately made chess-figures, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

Melissia wrote:Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Which would suggest that a Chapter Master is considerably more of a badass than a Cannoness.

Necroman wrote:Well, there must be some appeal; otherwise, people wouldn't play Tyranids in the first place.

Of course, but alas that appeal is lost on me, except, as I mention above, their appeal on the tabletop(which, I'd hazard a guess is enough for most people to collect an army).

#3 is almost certainly Eldar.

Also, Melissia, you should release 1 and 2 at the same time, so that we're hit with a big surprise all at once (Instead of just releasing 2, and then having us know what 1 is due to it being the only one left).

asimo77 wrote:Well calgar is the god of war, says so in his rules

Melissia wrote:Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Not even close. That's like saying the Eldar are the dominant species because they have craftworlds floating all around or that SM are dominant because their Chapter worlds are spread out. That the Imperium of Man is the dominant power in the galaxy is a well established core tenant of 40k.

there's plenty of Avatars out there but there's only one Calgar eheh...
He's one of the heroes of the imperium...

Araenion wrote:As I said, I love their playstyle. The debate was sparked over why I thought they were not as well-personified as Orks or Eldar, however. And I don't rightly know the reason. I can't really get into an army simply because I like how they play. I could spend a few games with a Tyranid army and enjoy it, but dedicate my time and money collecting and painting the miniatures of something I don't like at all, except as intricately made chess-figures, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I like Sisters the best by far, fluff-wise. I have not enjoyed painting them at all, however. I've often considered buying Tyranid models just to paint. What really turns me of about them is the unavailability of models, from a collecting & playing standard, that are absolutely key to their current dex.

Melissia wrote:Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Actually I find it quite the opposite, I was playing a 2,000 point game Eldar and orks vs Blood Angels and Space Marines and the so called " GOD OF ****ING WAR. " died turn 2 with a couple lucky rolls and about all are heavy weapons firing at the darn thing, I find Tyrants with Guard are even screen by Gaunts alot harder to deal with


EDIT: Ohwait, you mean fluff-wise... silly me.

Yes, no official Tervigon or Tyrannofex models...none of those sparkly new HQs they got...still only Hive Tyrant on the GW site.

Out of all the fluff, I like Eldar the best. I also adore their sleek tanks and colourful Aspects. And how they play on the tabletop. So they're a pretty great match for me.

As it is, I'm still collecting/painting my first army. Not being in the hobby for long, there's a whole lot still to do to finish my Eldar collection. Maybe my perspective will change once I do. Tyranid model line looks pretty fantastic to paint. And pretty simple, from what I've heard. But looking at them, they have potential to be pretty amazingly painted, too. And I still cheer for them to get some personality of their own, especially in higher sentient beasties such as Raveners, Genestealers and Lictors.

Araenion wrote:Out of all the fluff, I like Eldar the best. I also adore their sleek tanks and colourful Aspects. And how they play on the tabletop. So they're a pretty great match for me.

I love Craftworld Eldar. Their background is wonderful, their designs are cool and unique (without seeming out of place), and they have enough personality to be different as between Craftworlds. But I will not be playing them until their aspect warrior model lines get some major reworking.

Rascon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:One can never rid the galaxy of Orks without wiping out all life on the galaxy.

I doubt it. Nothing a little fungicide won't eventually clear up. But if you insist on this OTT type argument, then let me stress that humans are the dominant species in the 40k universe. I'm not talking about your take on the 40k universe, by the way, I'm talking about the one that is published by GW. That is a central tenant of the setting.

Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

And SoBs are just as good in power armor as Space Marines.

Problem, 'Uman?

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:Given the various maps and fluff, I would say that GW disagrees with your assertions. Orks not only are the most populous, they are also holding the most territory in the galaxy. Orks are indeed the dominant species.

Not even close. That's like saying the Eldar are the dominant species because they have craftworlds floating all around or that SM are dominant because their Chapter worlds are spread out. That the Imperium of Man is the dominant power in the galaxy is a well established core tenant of 40k.

It even says so in the latest background material released - DEATHWATCH.

... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

Melissia wrote:... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

You could clear this up pretty easily by actually pointing out where it says that orks are both the most populous species in the galaxy and also in control of the most worlds in any GW-published material.

I'll grant you that. The game is entirely from the Imperial view, as the Imperium (such as it is) is the dominant power. Orks are everywhere. They are a terrifying plague of violence. But in ten thousand years, they have not become any more (or any less!) of a threat to the Imperium.

Well, there is a lot of fluff in both the Big Book and the Ork codex that states that the Ork population is so huge that it actually exceeds the boundaries of the known galaxy. There is also a map in the Big Book which shows the population density of orks in the various segmentums, and it's huge.

FURTHERMORE:
Gotta disagree there, Manchu. Armageddon is now a more or less permanent warzone due to orkish activity, and because of the distraction of the tyranids, the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon has launched a Waaagh! into Ultramar.

Melissia wrote:... which is written from the Imperium's point of view.

OK, I've cited my source.

Please cite yours.

GW talks of Orks as having "numbers beyond counting." The same things are said of Tyranids. I'm sure the same thing applies to humans. But as I said, even with the seemingly endless numbers Orks have not accomplished all that much over the milennia. There's a good argument that humans are quite a bit more violent than Orks--namely, the ten thousand year history of the Imperium, which only covers the period in which they have been reconquering and ruling an even older and more advanced human empire.

Even older than orks, who are one of the oldest races in the galaxy?
I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

EDIT: Ignore the first sentence, I misread. Whoops.

For the former, it's in the fourth edition Ork codex last I checked. I'll go look in it later, for now, I can't be arsed. For the latter, it's in the rulebook, on the map of Ork inhabited worlds. Ork worlds are measured in density, rather than in actual territory, because Orks control worlds all across the galaxy and control so damn many worlds. The Imperium of Man has a map showing its supposed territory, but a look at the Ork map shows that this gak obviously does not fly with the Orks, nevermind that the Imperium is constantly fighting battles within its territory against rebels or finding new worlds within it.

Orks also aren't limited by the lack of an Astronomican, too. They will go where the warp takes them, and as long as there's a fight they're happy. Hell there's even suggestions in the Ork codex that Ork signals are coming from outside the galaxy.

Huh.

At best that's a push, but the Imperium seems a bit in the lead, so to speak, but probably only because they care about that sort of thing and the Orks don't.

Double post bug.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Each of those events were significant on a sector or sub-sector level. The holding of Armageddon (Waaagh! defeated twice there) has had no major effect on the Impeirum at large, nor has the loss of one Space Marine Chapter's homeworld. The Tau as an entire race are nearly insignificant by Imperial standards. Don't get me wrong, the Orks are a major threat. But they're not serious contenders against humans--as ten thousand years and more have proven.

Except that they are. Orks control huge swaths of the galaxy, and they're constantly attacking from said territory, expanding anywhere that the Imperium's defenses are weak. Any world they land on becomes an Ork-infested world, drawing more Orks to it as well as the ones that are born there. Even a single Boy surviving to make it to the surface can mean an entire world is doomed to eternally suffer the predations of Orks.

Melissia wrote:For the former, it's in the fourth edition Ork codex last I checked.

No, GW writers never say anything definitive about this. The current dex says "beyond counting" and the BGB calls them a "numerous race." I don't know that there is much point arguing about the size of the Ork population. The larger their population, the poorer it looks that they've accomplished so little with it. Ultimately, this is because Orks do not have the same goals as humans. They are generally not interested in empire and do not have the capability to sustain such institutions anyway.


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Melissia wrote:Even a single Boy surviving to make it to the surface can mean an entire world is doomed to eternally suffer the predations of Orks.

Ork presence by itself is not such a menace. It's a Waaagh! that means trouble. Saying a planet is doomed because there are Orks on it is like saying a planet is doomed because there are box jellyfish there. Yes, they're dangerous and you shouldn't take the threat lightly; but it's easily enough controlled under normal circumstances. (See inter-Waaagh! Armamgeddon, for example.)

At 33 pages and counting, there's only so much that shouting into a hurricane will accomplish.

This is firmly in Melissiawank territory, so it is best to just move on to the next one and hope that the final three show up quickly.

Well, M has already admitted to being an Ork fangirl so we are just arguing for fun at this point.

Manchu wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote: I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Each of those events were significant on a sector or sub-sector level. The holding of Armageddon (Waaagh! defeated twice there) has had no major effect on the Impeirum at large, nor has the loss of one Space Marine Chapter's homeworld. The Tau as an entire race are nearly insignificant by Imperial standards. Don't get me wrong, the Orks are a major threat. But they're not serious contenders against humans--as ten thousand years and more have proven.

One small thing, the third war for Armageddon isn't over. It's still going on; and the Armageddon system is very significant to the Imperium in terms of it's industrial complexes. Other than that, I can see where you're coming from. Even so, the Orks have been around long before Humans, and doubtless they'll still be around when the Imperium collapses and calls it a day.

The Third War for Armageddon is still going on . . . kind of. Ork Waaagh!s depend on the charisma of the boss. And Yarrick (once again) sent Ghazghkull running. Unless he rallies or another warboss emerges (not likely to be of Ghazghkull's exceptional skill anyway), that war will not likely be won by Orks

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
One small thing, the third war for Armageddon isn't over. It's still going on; and the Armageddon system is very significant to the Imperium in terms of it's industrial complexes. Other than that, I can see where you're coming from. Even so, the Orks have been around long before Humans, and doubtless they'll still be around when the Imperium collapses and calls it a day.

Yeah, but fluff seems to suggest that the Imperium loses important industrial worlds like it's their job. I look at it like this: it's important for the Armageddon system in the same way that, say, a tornado in Oklahoma City would be pretty important for Oklahoma City and its surrounding environs. The folks in Boston wouldn't be heavily impacted, nor would the US as a whole - nor would China, and nor would Earth. On a local level, it's extremely important; in the big picture, it's not.

Orks will almost undoubtedly be around when the Imperium's dead and buried. They're unlikely to be the cause of the Imperium's downfall, though, at least in the aggregate. My money for that is either on Tyrannids, or on literally everybody once the Astronomican fails.

The Inquisition knows the truth: the Imperium has the most to fear from itself.

Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.


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I'm gonna take some advice-- second and first are going to be posted together.

3: ELDAR

I'm betting Guard is second, Orks are first.

Melissia wrote:Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.

Well, it still wasn't a particularly positive portrayal of the sisters.

As for the Eldar being 3rd: Predictable, but in a good way. I like how you mentioned that their codex was still doing well, as a good codex that ages well can make all the difference between a faction like the Eldar and one like the Tau.

Yeah, eldar couldn't have made it into the top 2. They have the best minis of any range, and their army play is interesting, but every list has a nasty tendency to rely on a few bits of cheese, and their fluff really does leave a lot to be desired, especially in their new codex.

I'd also rank the eldar codex somewhere between about 3 and 5, but they do need a little spit and polish to snag the top spot.

As for who gets #1, I'm going to guess orks. Best modelling opportunities (with some pretty decent models to boot), while being competitive on the field and with the best fluff in the game. Guard would be a close second, though.

Probably orks, but ive got my fingers crossed for ig.

Melissia wrote:Also, someone commented on Sandy Michel or somesuch.

The Sisters in said story were being mind-controlled by a psyker who has enough power to dominate essentially entire planets (as shown by the fact that being near Jurgen breaks the mind control and pits them with the full force of what they have been doing over the past whatever time period). They didn't betray the Imperium, someone was basically using them as puppets, and when they had the chance (IE, when Jurgen was nearby) they killed themselves to end said use.

The Sisters turn up in three of Mitchell's books.

They're zealous to the point of reckless blindness in "Duty Calls", as shown when they nearly let the line collapse by advancing too far forward (and thereby moving out of range of the units on their flanks).
The Sisters you mentioned are in "Cain's Last Stand", and yeah they're not themselves at all. On the other hand the book also includes Sister Julien, who's a reasonable, down to earth, veteran, who drinks, plays cards, and has a discrete sexual relationship with one of the members of the school staff (i.e. she's not likely to have a 'holier than thou' attitude toward those around her, and is quite the opposite of Cain's negative view of "Emperor Botherers"). She also happens to be in charge of training the Sororitas initiates attending the school, and is often seen leading several of them around.
Finally, a pair of them turn up in 'Innocence Proves Nothing', but they're quite literally scenery - in this case silent door guards for the entrance to the Ordo Hereticus wing of the Inquisition Headquarters in the Calixis Sector. The Ordo Malleus wing has a pair of Grey Knights filling the same role, and the Ordo Xenos wing likely has a pair of Deathwatch doing the same.

Eh! Don't tell me I just read the end to "Duty Calls"???! Gah! I am probably almost to that part (maybe a chapter away actually). What timing

Oh well...

Btw, the front page could use an update or two.

Aniketos wrote:Eh! Don't tell me I just read the end to "Duty Calls"???! Gah! I am probably almost to that part (maybe a chapter away actually). What timing

The bit I described from "Duty Calls" actually happens mid-way through the book.



It shouldn't spoil anything particularly important (which is why I used it for my example).

If I'm honest, I've always liked Eldar. Somehow, their models appeal to me in the way they look; this is especially true of their tanks and aspect warriors, of which I am a huge fan. Unfortunately, their super-serious fluff kinda puts me off. It's even more grim than my beloved CSM in places, and I already have a "serious" army in terms of fluff.

I like the Eldar fluff. Would like to see more about the callous way that they regard a single Eldar life as more important than an infinity of any other race. The cold blooded way the farseers try to guide the remaining Eldar out of the clutches of oblivion.
I think its less "cry me a river" and more "we are on the edge here people. we have to keep our race alive. and we cant LOAD SAVED GAME if something goes wrong"

Eldar have always been kind of cool to me, I liked most of their model range, but I too did not like the whole dying race fluff. The model range also has an incredible amount of troop and elite chooses, most of which are medal; which was another reason they did not appeal to me that much.
Good review, and still hope Guard win.

Manchu wrote:I love Craftworld Eldar. Their background is wonderful, their designs are cool and unique (without seeming out of place), and they have enough personality to be different as between Craftworlds. But I will not be playing them until their aspect warrior model lines get some major reworking.

I meant to ask you yesterday, but I was getting seriously tired. Which models do you not like and why? Personally, I like them all except Guardian jetbikes. My favourite are Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers.

As for them being 3rd...it's a good place to be, for a 4th edition codex. They still play well, but over-reliance on certain very useful units like the Fire Dragons and Wave Serpents makes for pretty standardized builds. And it's just sad that the Phoenix Lords are so obnoxiously expensive and proportionally useless. When it comes to fluff, I don't think theirs is over the top at all, at least not in the distant darkness of the far future where there is only war. Their passion for life and the grave need to contain it(or else Slaneesh comes by and omnoms you) is what greatly appeals to me. And the fact they're absolutely and solely self-centered and make no excuses for it(unlike Tau and their Greater Good) makes them the most upfront of all races. You can never trust an Eldar. But at least you know that is one thing you can always count on.

The apparent randomness of the Eldar is something that seems to have been lost.
The eldar arent going to help the Imperium because they are good, or oppose Chaos or Necrons because they are bad.
They do things to save their own race. To walk down a very thin road that results in their species surviving.
I want to read fiction where the Eldar show up in a hive to kill one particular meaningless hive rat. because in 30 years hes going to have become captain of an imperial starship that bombs an eldar exodite world.
I also like the concepts of the aspect warriors and the exarchs who are trapped on the paths, and the phoenix lords who are the epitome of their paths and contain the memories of dozens or hundreds of eldar in their suits. and they will pass their memories to the next one.

And i cant stand the harlequins.

There´s nothing wrong in most of Aspect warrior models except for some of them being oldest than the internet itself. And those warlocks...duh. They are well designed but their body prorportions are ludicrous for today standards.

I wonder if GW guys are aware of all the cash they´re missing for not making wraithguard plastic, bearing in mind that all what they care for is $. Redo the Phoenix Lords would be a smart move too since they are quite popular (I mean, how many new marine characters have they made this last years?). And make more charismatic eldar special characters apart from Yriel, for Khaine sake.

Hey, Sisters are still using second edition models. At least Eldar HAVE some plastic infantry....

And it's not bad looking plastic infantry, either. Honestly, I can't see a lot wrong with the Eldar model range, besides the abundance of metal. I mean, nothing is really showing it's age too badly (unlike the Ork Warbuggies) so I personally don't mind if they're old models.

Did i really just read that orks aren't a significant threat?

Orks are going to be second, IG first.

As much of a fangirl that Melissa is of the Orks, the fluff, play ability and the fact that everybody can relate to the IG, is going to make them first.

The Eldar are my favorite race I think mainly for one of the same reasons Melissa liked them some much as I used to always play Elves in D&D.

I also love their background story, even the part that they are a fading race, and even at the decline they can still cause major problems for any race.

The reality of it is though they'll never be extinct they know to much about the warp and the webway and have the foresight to avoid most of their utter doom. And besides the way GW advances story line .... you think they'd ever get rid of an army as popular as the Eldar I don't think so.

I just wish their fluff represented itself in the game play better. I also hope their next codex is arranged more like the ork dex ias it tells more of their stories of raids, interventions and gives better examples of how the farseers guide them and for what reasons, as their fluff section. I mean do we really need another account of the fall and how and why it happened?

I agree it's a good codex and has showed it's age well but vs. more and more codex creep I don't know how much longer it's going to stay truly competitive at the end of 2011 with I'm guessing 3 more dex releases after DE I'm wondering how well their dex will stand up at that time. I see alot of people complain about the phoenix lords being bad but I have run every one (sans Baharoth) very effectively, the problem is they just don't give the bonuses of an Avatar or Farseer.

No one can in their right mind say PLs are bad. They are not closely worth their cost, however. Not when you can get one of the toughest MCs in the game for 150 points or the best force multiplier in the game for even less. And Autarchs are a great tactical advantage in a mech list.

Their lack of invulnerable save is simply inexcusable for a frontliner 200 point HQ choice.

El-dred wrote:The reality of it is though they'll never be extinct they know to much about the warp and the webway and have the foresight to avoid most of their utter doom. And besides the way GW advances story line .... you think they'd ever get rid of an army as popular as the Eldar I don't think so.

Get rid of them?

No.

Do bad things to them regardless?

Look at what happened to Eldrad...



I run Craftworld Eldar, and I like them for a number of reasons.

They're not ignorant, and have a pretty good idea regarding the true nature of things - unlike pretty much everyone else who isn't halfway down the path to becoming a Chaos Spawn.
Fluff-wise (game-play wise is arguable...) they have advanced equipment and technology, and aren't afflicted with any of the superstitions that the Imperium is saddled with.
Painting their troops is an excuse to ignore common sense when picking colors. And it WORKS! Painting Eldar encourages creativity when developing the color scheme.
The fluff is - for the most part - fairly decent. Or at least it is in the Eldar codex. Outside the codex, it can get rather annoying, and quite silly as well... (I'm looking at YOU Doom of Malantai! And Calgar! And possessed Avatar! etc...) It actually tends to be quite grounded, and there isn't much of the usual "codex porn". And some of the Craftworld-specific fluff comes across as optimistic enough to off-set the "We're all doomed!" bits that turn up. Iyanden might be doomed, but The Swordwind begs to differ!
In-game, they've got interesting units - though unfortunately some of the most interesting ones are badly in need of an update.

Please dont put IG first....

There are a lot of things that need re-tooling in the next iteration of the Eldar codex. I am also excited for Tyriel to slay an Avatar!

Orks, then IG. I still stand by this, despite me preferring the Greenskins.

Rascon wrote:

Melissia wrote:Killing a Hive Tyrant is not even remotely comparable to killing the AVATAR OF A GOD OF ****ING WAR.

Which would suggest that a Chapter Master is considerably more of a badass than a Cannoness.

Exactly, Avatars are pussies.


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Manchu wrote:I'll grant you that. The game is entirely from the Imperial view, as the Imperium (such as it is) is the dominant power. Orks are everywhere. They are a terrifying plague of violence. But in ten thousand years, they have not become any more (or any less!) of a threat to the Imperium.

Or even before The Imperium. Orks are the most stagnant race. Tyranid on the other hand turned the Imperium on its head in just a few hundred years.


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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Even older than orks, who are one of the oldest races in the galaxy?
I'd argue that the ruination of the Armageddon system, the destruction of Rynn's World and the decimation of the Crimson Fists was significant, personally. Also, the ever-increasing advance into the core Tau sept worlds. I'm afraid that given this evidence, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

EDIT: Ignore the first sentence, I misread. Whoops.

I would argue for 40,000 years: it's not.


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Melissia wrote:Except that they are. Orks control huge swaths of the galaxy, and they're constantly attacking from said territory, expanding anywhere that the Imperium's defenses are weak. Any world they land on becomes an Ork-infested world, drawing more Orks to it as well as the ones that are born there. Even a single Boy surviving to make it to the surface can mean an entire world is doomed to eternally suffer the predations of Orks.

"Control" is not the right word. More like "Orks fight each other on a lot of planets"

Yes, which is basically sport to them. They fight eachother because war makes them stronger. Just because Orks fight eachother doesn't mean these aren't Ork planets.

This:

Seaward wrote:The above post is not in any way a hilarious overreaction to a highly insignificant topic.

Not this:

SaintHazard wrote:
Wow.

Someone needs to cool his balls and realize that he's getting worked up over a subjective opinion of a fictional army of plastic soldier men.

Also I think this sums up the thread perfectly, all praise the primarch!

Alpharius wrote:At 33 pages and counting, there's only so much that shouting into a hurricane will accomplish.

This is firmly in Melissiawank territory, so it is best to just move on to the next one and hope that the final three show up quickly.

LordWaffles wrote:Also I think this sums up the thread perfectly, all praise the primarch!

Alpharius wrote:At 33 pages and counting, there's only so much that shouting into a hurricane will accomplish.

This is firmly in Melissiawank territory, so it is best to just move on to the next one and hope that the final three show up quickly.

My generous attention span is stretching somewhat thin.

Yeah, honestly, for the last 10 pages, I have been skimming, and even the term "skimming" is an exaggeration, and I am just looking for the last update.

WE REQUIRE MORE UPDATES!

Happygrunt wrote:WE REQUIRE MORE UPDATES!

Surely the most interesting man in the world can wait a few moons xD

YOU REQUIRE ADDITIONAL PYLONS!

Well, iv enjoyed this thread. Not often I go though 33+ pages.

I would like to comment on the Eldar, since they're my only army.

There is a large part of their history in them getting punched in the face by Chaos, but their current situation is just trying to move on with their lives. I hardly see Eldar crying over whats happened.

They can also play in two ways on the game table. Tourney, in which yes they may be a little cheesy and many models are no use. However you can play as fluff (great with friends) which gives you many, many army builds and is a ton of fun. One of the best Codex books to play a fluff army IMO.

Models are getting somewhat out of date but I agree, they do ok and other armies like the Sisters could use a makeover first. I won't buy the Avatar, he looks terrible (and his fluff is bad as he always seems to get rolled by other races. He should be a lot tougher\better).

Melissia wrote:Yes, which is basically sport to them. They fight eachother because war makes them stronger. Just because Orks fight eachother doesn't mean these aren't Ork planets.

It's not sport to them. It's just the nature of their existence. They don't even fight to become stronger they just fight because they fight. They will never unite as one force they were designed to be under the complete control of the Old Ones. Without their leadership they are like lost children; constantly bickering amongst themselves.

And yet there are definitive Ork empires. Though Orks may bicker on a social level, they will almost always bow to the will of a larger and more powerful greenskin; hence the existence of these empires, where such an individual has taken power and rules with an iron fist. To get rid of this excess violence, this individual will often end up leading conquests of nearby planets and systems so as to keep the lads happy, or he will organise massive gladiatorial contests, beast hunts or some other thing to keep the boys entertained.
In theory, should an Ork Warlord become powerful enough, he could control huge swathes of the sectors of the galaxy.

Couldn't the fighing between Orks be seen as constant natural selection?
Their aggressivenss and in-built willingness to fight each other could have been engineered when they were created(lets say for the sake of argument they are directly descended form he Krorks) so that they will always sta strong. Not only that but the constant state of warfare means that they will never settle and have a civilised society which means they will never become corrupt orplacid.

You could indeed see it as a method to have weaker orks die out while the victor increases in size and strength due to his victory; that ork is then a much greater warrior and more of a threat in battle.

Anyways, I think Eldar may have been the only race I ever hated. Back when I still played Star Cannons had 3 shots and were good at killing everything. It was a time of heavy streamlining but Eldar had more special rules and weirdness than all the other races put together. Damn you Gav Thorpe! (I think he was the original Matt Ward).
Anyways I was 14 so i got over it. Also all the races have extensive codices now. Probably more than they actualy need (really don't think all the Space Marines need giant $32 codices that basically reprint the same rules over and over)

I do admit, I find the Eldar a bunch of swines to play against when they're on their game. It's nearly impossible to get to handgrips with them, seeing as they can outmanoeuvre my Speed Freeks and still have time for a bit of zen and wraithbone building before blasting my arse to hell.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:You could indeed see it as a method to have weaker orks die out while the victor increases in size and strength due to his victory; that ork is then a much greater warrior and more of a threat in battle.

I believe the Old Ones designed them with short-sighteness as a self control mechanism. There's no doubt that Orks are the ultimate Warrior race (they were dsigned to be). Absolutely the would destroy the galaxy if they got their act together. The Old Ones weren't stupid. It's pretty obvious they were going down the road of "we played god and now ou own creation are turning against us" movie cliche. So they left out (well more like forgot to add) some of the societal organizing principles that other sentient races posses.

They were probably programmed to follow the Old Ones without question but lacking them they just follow the biggest Ork around.
Humans control one million worlds and they actually do control them.
Orks exist as one million unconnected empires and always will. That's why you can't refer to them as a unified galactic force. You may say that Ork empire #16895 is quite strong but there is no "The Orks". They just appear to be a monolithic force to us silly humans.

Hmm, you make a point, though those ork empires are still a threat even individually, as orks have a weird community spirit when a mutual enemy turns up. If one empire comes under attack, others may get involved so as to get some of the action. The alliance will last as long as the enemy does, of course, but even so.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I do admit, I find the Eldar a bunch of swines to play against when they're on their game. It's nearly impossible to get to handgrips with them, seeing as they can outmanoeuvre my Speed Freeks and still have time for a bit of zen and wraithbone building before blasting my arse to hell.

Yeah, I love to fight greenskins because of the same reasons.

Sure I can refer to Orks as a galactic power. A galactic power whose entire purpose is to deliver war, and they don't care about with whom they do it.

Orks might be superficially split into factions, but when another race comes into the picture they unite to destroy them. After all it's more fun to war with the other races than it is with other Orks.

Just as I was saying; Orks prefer mutual enemies to fight.
The best example of this would be the orkish response to Tau aggression on the eastern front.

Melissia wrote:Sure I can refer to Orks as a galactic power. A galactic power whose entire purpose is to deliver war, and they don't care about with whom they do it.

Orks might be superficially split into factions, but when another race comes into the picture they unite to destroy them. After all it's more fun to war with the other races than it is with other Orks.

Not neccesarily, Orks prefer to fight Orks because they are "proper" foes. Always tough and fight the proper Orky way. They only band together when they think it will lead to a bigger WAAAGH! not for any kind of racial pride. Waagh's by their nature are a temporary endeavor.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sure I can refer to Orks as a galactic power. A galactic power whose entire purpose is to deliver war, and they don't care about with whom they do it.

Orks might be superficially split into factions, but when another race comes into the picture they unite to destroy them. After all it's more fun to war with the other races than it is with other Orks.

Not neccesarily, Orks prefer to fight Orks because they are "proper" foes. Always tough and fight the proper Orky way. They only band together when they think it will lead to a bigger WAAAGH! not for any kind of racial pride. Waagh's by their nature are a temporary endeavor.

Not really. An ork, as it says in the codex, will generally only fight other orks if there is nobody else nearby to fight. They prefer fighting other people, as it makes for variety, something even orks appreciate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wot no updates?

UPDATE FASTER GODDAMMIT!

Geeze, I go to sleep and wake up to have two people already ask where the next update is. Not like I'm some kind of webcomic artist with an established schedule or anything

I have number two finished, I'm working on number one.

Cooly needs to hug more pandas.

Better to get it right then rush it I say.

*pulls out wip*
"Back you lot!! BACK I say!!"

I hope Orks come first. Although IG are much better then what they use to be, I still feel they're rather dull in the combat department. Also, Im not so keen on most of the mini's.

Orks have variety in combat choices and game-play. Lets say, they just have 'more' overall.

OoieGoie wrote:*pulls out wip*
"Back you lot!! BACK I say!!"

When you said 'pulls out' I thought that the sentence would end differently. Thankfully I was mistaken.

Anyway, don't let them rush you Mel (yes, I will keep caling you Mel even though we've never really been freinds, for reasons I'm not entirely sure of). From personal exprience these things always work out better when time is taken anyway.

'Scuse me....But What's the current list looking like? No way I can go through like 35 pages to find a couple posts >.>

i wonder how many have actually followed the thread to the end?

Seasonal avatar FTW. Since you people have been so patiently waiting, here they are on all hallowed eve... er.. .the eve of that.

2: ORKS
(a cookie for anyone who gets this reference)

Gentlemen, I like Orks. No, sirs, I love Orks! I love Burnaboyz, I love Stormboyz, I love shootaboyz, I love boomkannonz and sluggaboyz. I love watching my Boyz utterly trash anything they see, and it's even amusing when I see them break and flee. I like seeing Orks in low-terrain games, full of terrain, in Cities of Death, in Planetstrike, in Apocalypse, I love to see every kind of Ork squad in any kind of 40k game. I love blasting my enemy to smithereens with lobba salvos that thunder across the lines of battle. My heart leaps with joy whenever a transport is popped open and is cut to pieces by a swarm of angry boyz! And there is nothing like a battlewagon deffrolling enemy tanks. And the feeling when a squad runs from their wrecked transport only to be mowed down by shootaboyz is so exquisite. Like when ranks of boyz brandish their choppas, rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deeply to watch a fresh yoofs chop over and over and over into the bloated chest of a long-dead enemy. The sight of cowards being chopped up by a nob is an irresistible pleasure. When a squad of pitiful Astartes makes their final stand with nothing but plot armor, only to have their armor smashed to atoms piece by piece by simple overwhelming weight of fire, it makes me grin. I even like seeing Orks squashed under tanks after a failed Death or Glory roll. And the joy of watching my enemies flee like vermin, ducking the fightabommas that fly overhead is rarely matched. Gentlemen, all Orks ask for is war. War so grand as to make the Warp itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow 40k players what is it you really want. Do you wish for further war as I do? Do you wish for a merciless, bloody war? A war whose fury is built with iron and lightning and fire? Do ask for a war to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even ravens to scavenge from this galaxy?

Then, gentlemen, you ask for Orks. I don't think I can say any more than has already been said in this thread. I love Orks. I love their playstyle, I love their fluff, I love their models. I like watching the green tide ebb and flow across the table. I like watching lots of ramshackle trukks and battlewagons charge at my forces. There's really not a single unit in the codex whose concept I don't like, even if their execution could use some work in the end the codex is one fo the best designed in the history of GW's codex designs. The only reason they're number two is because the number one codex currently is the best fifth edition codex out there, and you know that this means that number one is:

1: IMPERIAL GUARD

Image full sized for emphasis.

The Imperial Guard isn't the best of the best that humanity has to offer. The Imperial Guard isn't roid-raging chemmed up drugged up hormoned up superhuman superhero supersoldiers in supersized superarmor. The Imperial Guard isn't psychic space elf ninjas. The Imperial Guard isn't the terror from the darkness of the void, seeking to devour all that lives. The Imperial Guard isn't ultraadvanced zombie robots from the past. The Imperial Guard isn't the very essence of hell itself puked out upon reality.

So what are they?

Human.

The Imperial Guard is the raw, purified essence of humanity. Though frightened to death we struggle, though desperately outmatched we fight, though beset on all sides by the deadliest foes known to fiction we survive. Humanity cannot look to the Astartes to save itself, nor towards the xenos that might have been allies in better days. No, humanity can only look to itself for defense, struggling on to finish the endless war for survival, to destroy all enemies and carve out a place in history for itself... a place that stays until the stars dim and the galaxy crumbles into dust. Even the dark powers of Chaos shall remember humans when we are gone, because we strike out against our enemies with such vengeance and fury that their powers cannot snuff us out, and instead they must struggle to corrupt us.

There's just something special about Imperial Guard, and it isn't just the fluff. It's also the army list itself. It has the most variety of any codex since second edition, and a ton of power spread out over a lot of builds-- it's not like some armies where there's just one power build. No, there's lots of them, because as long as you put thought into your army, your Guardsmen will grind your enemies into dust-- be it through boot heel or under tread, or even from the roar of valkyrie/vendetta engines, any intelligently built Guard list can put up a fight against any enemy list, no matter the codex. The special characters are flavorful without being over or underwhelimng, all variety of infantry squads (yes, even stormtroopers) have uses, all variety of vehicles have uses (though some of them somewhat underperform, they at least perform, which is more than one can say about the weakest units of other codices). Guard is over the Ork codex because of the sheer variety of the list, and I can't wait jfor Orks to get a fifth edition codex, and then we'll see who is first and who is second. Until then, Guard definitely has its spot at first place, and deserves it.

Woooooo guard #1!

OoieGoie wrote:i wonder how many have actually followed the thread to the end?

I did. I've read every post in this thread, from the first reply (me!) up until now. It's given me a feeling of staisfaction...

That said, Melissa, while I disagree about the Orks, that is merely my opinion. I respect your love of them, and it's good to see such devotion to the hobby.

I agree about the Guard. I've always had a special place in my heart for the IG, the humans who every day put their lives on the line so that others may live. They are, all of them, heroes.

Thank you so much for making this thread, it's been a great read, even though it got a little off topic at times. I thoroughly enjoyed every minute I spend reading it.

Samus_aran115 wrote:'Scuse me....But What's the current list looking like? No way I can go through like 35 pages to find a couple posts >.>

See the first post. I have been editing them into there.

I totally called it.

I barely made it to the end of this trainwreck, but by God, I limped across the finish line.

35 Pages... Phew.

Very good show, Melissia! Congrats on making it to 35 pages!

Ah yes.

Well done, Mellissia. A fine contribution!

(Forgot to mention that before. )

Melissia wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:'Scuse me....But What's the current list looking like? No way I can go through like 35 pages to find a couple posts >.>

See the first post. I have been editing them into there.

Ah, thanks. That's much easier. I was erroneously skipping the first page. Did I use that right? I want to use that word more.


W00t! Guard at #1! I agree. Great army, great fluff. Cadians are IMO the coolest models in the game for some reason...

GUARD! RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not surprised by this. I have wanted to get a pure Valkyrie list for a while. As my chapter has a tendency to use them for fun.

Asherian Command wrote:GUARD! RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not surprised by this. I have wanted to get a pure Valkyrie list for a while. As my chapter has a tendency to use them for fun.

I've thought of doing this. Too expensive model wise, IMO. Otherwise, it's awesome. And I'd rather use vendettas.


Personally, I really want to build a sentinel list. You can take 9 sentinels without really disrupting the rest of the army too badly. They're only 45 points. That's about 400 points for nine. Not bad. I could easily waste 400 points on some Khorne terminators.

Well. I am going to convert the Valkyries all into Storm Ravens as I have a small chapter called The Wanderers and they use everything they got and find relics of other chapters and use it so. Yeah for me!

That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

Melissia wrote:That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

What? That I want to build a Blood angel list for chapters That people are telling me to start so that It can inspire others to work on their own chapters? Yeah I sounded like a dick.....

Melissia wrote:That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

Now that's more like it!

Asherian Command wrote:

Melissia wrote:That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

What? That I want to build a Blood angel list for chapters That people are telling me to start so that It can inspire others to work on their own chapters? Yeah I sounded like a dick.....

Who is telling you that?

Melissia wrote:That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

I think I agree for some reason.

Valkyries are too small...I hope the stormraven is a bigger kit.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That last post makes me want to punch someone in the face.

I really have no explanation for said feelings. It is beyond my ken.

I think I agree for some reason.

Valkyries are too small...I hope the stormraven is a bigger kit.

I agree with that too. but Its all I can work with....

Yeah, I understand. Hopefully you'll get one in the next couple months.

YAY. Guards. Ive been rooting for them since Tau got dumped at 12 or something

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, I understand. Hopefully you'll get one in the next couple months.

Lets hope. I really need two of them. As this one chapter needs to stay consistent.

Cool to see Guard Win.

Nice Speech about the Orks, then again I'm imagining it with a heavy german accent

Love Orks, totally ambilvilant about Guard. They are the one army that I just don't have any feelings about one way or the other. They are also the absolute last army in 40K I would play.

If I wanted to play humans, there are so many other wargames with much better base rules out there that I couldn't even fathom suffering through 40Ks clunky rule set if I'm running something as unimaginative as humans.

WOOT! CALLED THE LAST THREE! (Kinda...)

Finally chiming in. Just caught up on Sisters, then Eldar...


I have a few things to say about witchhunters/sisters in general. I like witchhunters as a concept. I can't sand SoB though. This is from an aesthetic image standpoint that has been discussed to death (corsets etc blah blah) and also from the extremely wacky lapse of reason in their actual game statistics. I think counting them as 'power armor' is just ridiculous. If their power armor could be found in a victoria's secret catalog, why is 'standard' power armor reserved for the super elite so clunky?

Are they actually given BETTER, more space efficient technology that the Emprah's Finesht Shpesh Marinesh? Are they so advanced that they rival the Eldar who have stronger/faster/more maleable wraithbone material in their armor... in better protection, BETTER COMBAT SKILLS!?!?! (compared to a race where everyone is a supposedly disciplined soldier with superhuman agility and probably hundreds of years old)

In addition to the Eldar 'other' pursuit that they follow in their path faithfully and religiously just as the battle sisters fervently pray and commune and repent and such for their 'other' pursuit.

How can these little space hotties even come close to being compared to an Astartes? Maybe, MAYBE if their statline was somewhere around the same as an IG Stormtrooper it could be acceptable (also inundated with unswerving faith and loyalty since being orphan children, but they don't get power armor and bolters, despite the fact that they spend all of their time drilling, instead of being distracted by prayer time). And the skanky chainsword repentia chicks are just about as embarrassing S&M fetishist looking as the Dark Eldar. Enough about the SoB's look though, it's been done to death...

I really liked the darker, less barbie style of the rest of the INQ... the Van Helsing look of the Witch Hunter inquisitor, the penitents, the flagellants, filthy zealous priesty guys in tattered robes foaming at the mouth and all that stuff... all the stuff that brought out the Salem Witch Trial puritan atrocities and bubonic page era catholisic monastic desperation feel and look. THAT is a witch hunter, not some decked out skank with shiney thigh high boots. Bad clash of imagery for the same faction. Buffy the Vampire Slayer meets Van Helsing, I'll take Van Helsing on my team and leave barbie back at the sorority house with her sisters. That makes me think this faction is just too split-personality.

Fluffwise, SoB are the militant arm of the Ecclisiarchy, not the Inquisition. I don't see how an autonomous power like the Inquisition would ever be subordinate to a separate power, and I don't see a religious leader being subordinate to anything not as devout as they are. It is in the nature of religious idealists that their power is the TRUE power. Can we imagine the Catholic church bowing to the demands of the secret service as a subordinate? Can we imagine the CIA taking orders from the pope either?

So by the standards of most of this thread, I'm surprised they came anywhere near the bottom. Their fluff is hard to rationalize, their 'look' is unbelievable compared to real bulky canonically recognized 'power armor' as we know it, their Codex is (compared to the 'ideal' SM as a for instance) awkward and confused. How they got so far is beyond me. (I have my suspicions though)

Anyhoo, enough ragging on Barbie, I'm surprised the Eldar did so well. This is NOT because I don't like them. Quite the opposite, I LOVE Eldar, Elves in fantasy fiction in general, and the idea of such a 'superior' being, not in the jockish meathead way that an Astartes is superior, or the hivemind efficient way of the bugs, but in the aesthetic, mental,physical and pure way they embody so well. That's my take on Eldar, they ARE just better than everyone. That was their whole problem that caused the Fall back when other races were still figuring out how to walk upright.

They get a lot of hate though from either meathead players who call them 'pansy gay space elfs' , or inexperienced hate them because they get outsmarted by their extremely precision play style that can take advantage of typical no-brainer power spam deathstar etc lists by specializing and making the opponent think he is just outclassed because the Eldar player used the right tool for the right job. When they lose, it's because their player messed up some slight thing and their fragility is not as forgiving as a bunch of blunt frontal attacking power armor can be. When they win, it's often a big win, and almost too easy, and because they player made absolutely no mistakes. To a noob, that could look like an army that's too powerful. To an Eldar player it just means you were doing everything right, which is a difficult challenge.

Guitardian wrote:If their power armor could be found in a victoria's secret catalog, why is 'standard' power armor reserved for the super elite so clunky?

Are they actually given BETTER, more space efficient technology that the Emprah's Finesht Shpesh Marinesh?

A Space Marine is stronger, faster tougher and with greater endurance than a human, so their armour does more than just provide protection. For instance, there's not much point giving a SoB a suit of power armour that can operate in a hard vacuum non-stop for a week if the human inside that suit can only operate for 10 hours without losing combat effectiveness to fatigue.

In addition to the Eldar 'other' pursuit that they follow in their path faithfully and religiously just as the battle sisters fervently pray and commune and repent and such for their 'other' pursuit.
...
How can these little space hotties even come close to being compared to an Astartes? Maybe, MAYBE if their statline was somewhere around the same as an IG Stormtrooper it could be acceptable

Their base statline is exactly the same as an IG stormtrooper. This is worse than the statline of those Eldar who are on one of the Aspect Warrior paths, but better than the ones who are a hundred years out of practice after moving to the Path of architecture or some other non-military role.

And would you drop the insults? They don't wear their underwear on the outside, they don't wear thigh-high boots, and they aren't skanks or barbies.

The problem with your analogy is that current day society is more secular than 40k. Seperation of state and religion is unheard of in 40k. In our world, you combine religion with state and you'd be called a nutjob.

Well Melissia it has been 35 now 36 really awesome pages in this thread . I have been following it from the start to now. Thou i haven't posted on the thread i have really injoyed it from the sideline!.

As an devoted Ork player i love how you described the Orks as i see them the same way you do! They plunge themselfs and everyone else into an enternal war with Boyz in all categories and waow i simply Love Orks!. Even if you lose Boyz at the dozens it doesn't matter! AS YOU WILL NEVER RUN OUT OF BOYZ TA FIGHT . And it made me glad everytime an Ork Hater (Who apereantly hates them cus they are Comedians?) attacked them and you would defend them with such ferocity that any Ork see you more as an Ork then a oomie! And would follow you to any Waargh!

But. As much as i am a Ork player to the bone i can only agree with you that they have to be #2. The Imperial Guard is... Amazing! I feel something special to these humans who fight and defend the galaxy from it hordes of Xenos and Aliens and Traitors!. I have read the IG codex from start to end meny times and it's amazing everytime. I have also decided that my secondary army is going to be IG and even the Armaggadon Steel Legion! I think it would be fun to have them as they really hates Orks .

Well it has really been awesome! Thank you again for making this thread. I hope to see other awesome threads in the near future. Keep it up Melissia!

(Oh Personal question. What Ork clan are you playing for your Orks? I myself has always been facinated by the Speed Freaks so Evil Sunz was the best choice)

I am actually very surprised that I predicted this correctly.

Anyway, I have to agree; Orks and Imperial Guard are the two iconic armies of 40K for me. Orks have been in the game since it's infancy, and have remained a mainstay through all that time, regardless of the changes in rules and codexes. Their fluff is kick-ass, and the models (for the most part) are some of the best, in my humble opinion.
But the Guard? Well, it's the underdog factor as much as it is the codex (and don't get me wrong, I love the codex).
IG are essentially the common man, fighting things that are almost always bigger, scarier and more heavily armed and armoured than him. The mere fact that many still do their duty in the face of such things as, say, a Genestealer horde, or a hideous Daemon Prince, is what makes them so special; I think the Guard codex itself says it best when it describes the main weapons of the Guard as being often "a bayonet with some guts behind it." Sure, there are jokes and comments abound about how the Guard's commissars have something to do with it, but at the end of the day, the actions of the IG troopers is nothing short of heroic.

Well, it was good fun reading this thread, and I'm glad I managed to get into it relatively early enough to know what was going on. Good job!

Well, I can't fault your reasoning. I can cry myself to sleep at night that CSM didn't get higher, but I understand why.

In three words; you go girl.

Keep in mind I don't necessarily disagree, but playing devil's advocate here because it's just too early in the morning for me to read this kind of thing and respond without humor:

Apologies for the multiquote. I'm too lazy to do my usual numbering edits.

Guitardian wrote:I think counting them as 'power armor' is just ridiculous. If their power armor could be found in a victoria's secret catalog, why is 'standard' power armor reserved for the super elite so clunky?

No no no, they're wearing victoria's secret OVER the power armor.

Which is just as dumb, but it does protect just as well.

Guitardian wrote:Are they actually given BETTER, more space efficient technology that the Emprah's Finesht Shpesh Marinesh?

Better?

For humans, yes.

Space efficient?

Possibly, but only because they don't have quite as many features (Although they do have some in the helmet that Space Marines power armor doesn't).

Guitardian wrote: Are they so advanced that they rival the Eldar who have stronger/faster/more maleable wraithbone material in their armor... in better protection, BETTER COMBAT SKILLS!?!?! (compared to a race where everyone is a supposedly disciplined soldier with superhuman agility and probably hundreds of years old)

Wraithbone allows Eldar to be I5 and fleet. Those that have a 3+ save lose fleet, but are still I5. That's a pretty fast moving fighter. Keep in mind that WS5 is a damned good WS value, far better than almost any common soldier could hope to get to (out of the entire IG codex, only Lord Commissars get it, for example).

Guitardian wrote:How can these little space hotties even come close to being compared to an Astartes?

Through special, constant training that provides them with preternatural skill in combat. Actually, in tabletop Celestians are more skilled at close combat than most Astartes are, I should note (they hit Astartes at a 3+, whereas the Astartes hit them at a 4+).

You know that thing that you said about Eldar, being mentally and physically superior, and having purity and all that jazz for Eldar? That's what Sisters are, save that they're human. They are the best that humanity has to offer, to give a direct quote from the codex:

The Sisters of Battle are shining examples of all that is good about humanity, the pinnacle of faith, devotion, and purity.

And THAT is what I like about them. They are the best of the best of humanity, struggling to protect the innocent and the purity of mankind in a galaxy that is trying to taint and use them, be it the foul progeny of xenos, or the heresies of Chaos. To keep humanity... human. Do they always succeed? No, but then they are just human.

I agree pretty much with the entire list. You got it down smack. Daemonhunters, The Imperial Guard, and the Orks are my favorite and you won best 2 outta 3.

Nice list. (YOU STILL DIDN'T RANK THEM FAST ENOUGH GAWDDAMMIT)

I don't care.

YOU SHOULD GAWDDAMMIT.

Oh well.

I've kept up as well....and out of curiosity, what type of cookie is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. I enjoyed this thread very much...

Dunno, sugar cookie maybe. Or maybe chocolate chip, I haven't decided.

Cookie? There's a cookie?
What do you mean?

EDIT: Disregard this, I have my answer.

See the Ork codex review.

Hrm, I need to make thanksgiving and christmas avatars, too. Maybe a valentines one too.

Its always good to see the Major's "I love war" speech, in any incarnation, ever. You also sumed up effectively why the IG is hands down my favorite army, and in the same post, why I dont play them any more.

yay, Guard are 1st
Read all 36 pages of this and I have to say it was an overall excellent review.

Urrrrr.... Just curious, Melissia, but have your avatar's eyes always been red? Cause that looks new to me.






By new, I mean creepy.

No, silly, thats Mellissa's Hallowe'en avatar. Spirit of the season and all that.

I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

Melissia wrote:I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

What was your avatars eye color before? Wasn't it blue?

Melissia wrote:I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

It scares me. I'll go change my avatar as I was looking for another avatar.

Happygrunt wrote:

Melissia wrote:I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

What was your avatars eye color before? Wasn't it blue?

The eyes were the most notable change, from green to red. Everything else I gave a slight red tint.

Melissia wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

Melissia wrote:I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

What was your avatars eye color before? Wasn't it blue?

you used the red eye feature on max didn't you?

No, I manually recolored it using GIMP and Irfanview.

Ah. I'll try and put a christmas hat on my guy soon

Melissia wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

Melissia wrote:I prefer subtle when it comes to art.

If a person doesn't even realize my avatar has changed, but there's something more sinister about it, I'd say mission acomplished ^.^

What was your avatars eye color before? Wasn't it blue?

The eyes were the most notable change, from green to red. Everything else I gave a slight red tint.

Wow, thats actually really good, I didnt notice anything but the eyes. Did you draw that?


I would change my avatar, but as the most interesting man in the world, I am good for all seasons.

I actually messed up, but when it's resized to 120x120 it's hard to tell.


edit: No, I didn't. It's an edit of an image by IronShrineMaiden.

Melissia wrote:Seasonal avatar FTW. Since you people have been so patiently waiting, here they are on all hallowed eve... er.. .the eve of that.

2: ORKS
(a cookie for anyone who gets this reference)

Gentlemen, I like Orks. No, sirs, I love Orks! I love Burnaboyz, I love Stormboyz, I love shootaboyz, I love boomkannonz and sluggaboyz. I love watching my Boyz utterly trash anything they see, and it's even amusing when I see them break and flee. I like seeing Orks in low-terrain games, full of terrain, in Cities of Death, in Planetstrike, in Apocalypse, I love to see every kind of Ork squad in any kind of 40k game. I love blasting my enemy to smithereens with lobba salvos that thunder across the lines of battle. My heart leaps with joy whenever a transport is popped open and is cut to pieces by a swarm of angry boyz! And there is nothing like a battlewagon deffrolling enemy tanks. And the feeling when a squad runs from their wrecked transport only to be mowed down by shootaboyz is so exquisite. Like when ranks of boyz brandish their choppas, rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deeply to watch a fresh yoofs chop over and over and over into the bloated chest of a long-dead enemy. The sight of cowards being chopped up by a nob is an irresistible pleasure. When a squad of pitiful Astartes makes their final stand with nothing but plot armor, only to have their armor smashed to atoms piece by piece by simple overwhelming weight of fire, it makes me grin. I even like seeing Orks squashed under tanks after a failed Death or Glory roll. And the joy of watching my enemies flee like vermin, ducking the fightabommas that fly overhead is rarely matched. Gentlemen, all Orks ask for is war. War so grand as to make the Warp itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow 40k players what is it you really want. Do you wish for further war as I do? Do you wish for a merciless, bloody war? A war whose fury is built with iron and lightning and fire? Do ask for a war to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even ravens to scavenge from this galaxy?

Then, gentlemen, you ask for Orks. I don't think I can say any more than has already been said in this thread. I love Orks. I love their playstyle, I love their fluff, I love their models. I like watching the green tide ebb and flow across the table. I like watching lots of ramshackle trukks and battlewagons charge at my forces. There's really not a single unit in the codex whose concept I don't like, even if their execution could use some work in the end the codex is one fo the best designed in the history of GW's codex designs. The only reason they're number two is because the number one codex currently is the best fifth edition codex out there

Greatest Post Ever!

Btw I read the entire post in the Majors voice

An excellent read, M. I disagree with you on a lot of it, but with gaurd, I agree 100%. A well-deserved 1st place.

Lord of battles wrote:

Melissia wrote:Seasonal avatar FTW. Since you people have been so patiently waiting, here they are on all hallowed eve... er.. .the eve of that.

2: ORKS
(a cookie for anyone who gets this reference)

Gentlemen, I like Orks. No, sirs, I love Orks! I love Burnaboyz, I love Stormboyz, I love shootaboyz, I love boomkannonz and sluggaboyz. I love watching my Boyz utterly trash anything they see, and it's even amusing when I see them break and flee. I like seeing Orks in low-terrain games, full of terrain, in Cities of Death, in Planetstrike, in Apocalypse, I love to see every kind of Ork squad in any kind of 40k game. I love blasting my enemy to smithereens with lobba salvos that thunder across the lines of battle. My heart leaps with joy whenever a transport is popped open and is cut to pieces by a swarm of angry boyz! And there is nothing like a battlewagon deffrolling enemy tanks. And the feeling when a squad runs from their wrecked transport only to be mowed down by shootaboyz is so exquisite. Like when ranks of boyz brandish their choppas, rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deeply to watch a fresh yoofs chop over and over and over into the bloated chest of a long-dead enemy. The sight of cowards being chopped up by a nob is an irresistible pleasure. When a squad of pitiful Astartes makes their final stand with nothing but plot armor, only to have their armor smashed to atoms piece by piece by simple overwhelming weight of fire, it makes me grin. I even like seeing Orks squashed under tanks after a failed Death or Glory roll. And the joy of watching my enemies flee like vermin, ducking the fightabommas that fly overhead is rarely matched. Gentlemen, all Orks ask for is war. War so grand as to make the Warp itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow 40k players what is it you really want. Do you wish for further war as I do? Do you wish for a merciless, bloody war? A war whose fury is built with iron and lightning and fire? Do ask for a war to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even ravens to scavenge from this galaxy?

Then, gentlemen, you ask for Orks. I don't think I can say any more than has already been said in this thread. I love Orks. I love their playstyle, I love their fluff, I love their models. I like watching the green tide ebb and flow across the table. I like watching lots of ramshackle trukks and battlewagons charge at my forces. There's really not a single unit in the codex whose concept I don't like, even if their execution could use some work in the end the codex is one fo the best designed in the history of GW's codex designs. The only reason they're number two is because the number one codex currently is the best fifth edition codex out there

Greatest Post Ever!

Btw I read the entire post in the Majors voice

I read it in a Sergeant Accent from RVB

Yeah, even though it is one gigantic Hellsing quote, I suppose that sarge could pull it off.

Started reading bits of the Horus Heresy novels.

I'm agreeing with you on Space Marines now. There is just nothing interesting about flawless super men who more or less are worth a hundred normal men.

It just makes their "falls" and "flaws" seem more pitiful than sad. boooooorrrrrriiiiinnnnnggggg

Still puts Grey Knights far above Space Marines on the boring map, since their fluff is all about how they have no flaws and I've never heard of one falling.

I don't know marines are good for making gaurdsmen look good. And the gaurd novels are really cool.

Excellent listing.

Makes me wish I could fight as well as the guard with my tau... sadface.

It's okay tau will likely be getting a new codex within the year. well a 12 month period anyway. after DE and necrons they're the oldest codex. and Necrons aren't near as ready.

gendoikari87 wrote:It's okay tau will likely be getting a new codex within the year. well a 12 month period anyway. after DE and necrons they're the oldest codex. and Necrons aren't near as ready.

*cough*Daemonhunters*cough*Witchhunters*cough*Lostandthedamned*cough*

Enjoyed the list.
Dont disagree with too many. and its all opinion anyway.

gendoikari87 wrote:It's okay tau will likely be getting a new codex within the year. well a 12 month period anyway. after DE and necrons they're the oldest codex. and Necrons aren't near as ready.

Tau are fourth edition, not third edition.

There's still four third edition codices.

Makes me wonder how some Codices can be upgraded twice, leaving some not to be upgraded at all? What is GW smoken?

OoieGoie wrote:Makes me wonder how some Codices can be upgraded twice, leaving some not to be upgraded at all?

Lots of faction bloat, limited time between editions, product identity focus, popularity etc....

AlexHolker wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:It's okay tau will likely be getting a new codex within the year. well a 12 month period anyway. after DE and necrons they're the oldest codex. and Necrons aren't near as ready.

*cough*Daemonhunters*cough*Witchhunters*cough*Lostandthedamned*cough*

Witch hunters are fine and daemonhunters are already in the que for a new codex so they don't count. Besides I have suspicions that even with all the "NO this will no be a combined codex" it's actually going to turn out to be a combined codex.

oh crap i forgot about black templars and their awesomeness that is the orbs of antioch!

While it's a bit nebulous to me about which is #1 or #2, Orks and IG have always been my favorite armies in the 40K universe, so I'm glad to see them topping the list.

Unfortunately, they're also the most expensive to play, so have priced themselves out of my availbility.

Melissia wrote: The Grey Knights fight knowing they will not be remembered for what they do. They fight-- and win-- because they must, for the sake of all humanity.

Ahahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahaaa!

Crap.

I was on... er... vacation again, and missed like seven pages.

I totally would've called IG at #1, mostly because everyone and their mother expected Orks at #1, and Melissia is crafty like that.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Melissia wrote: The Grey Knights fight knowing they will not be remembered for what they do. They fight-- and win-- because they must, for the sake of all humanity.

Ahahahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahaaa!

Am I missing something? Why is this so funny?

OoieGoie wrote:Makes me wonder how some Codices can be upgraded twice, leaving some not to be upgraded at all? What is GW smoken?

'edition' Codex are a bit misleading. From personal experience conversation, I know GW had no plans to update 4th ed. Eldar for 5th ed. They said that the 4th ed. was meant to be used for 5th too... ("Really? so now all other armies can move as fast on foot as we can? So now our fast skimmers have to stay parked in order to use their weapons effectively? So now our psyker dominance is dwarfed by Spesh Murheensh powers for half the price and our guardians are outclassed by IG with lasguns for half the points cost? ummm?... yeah lots of thought was put into that... don't even get me started on drop pods)

We Eldar will probably get a 5th ed. right before 6th ed. comes out, just like what happened to Chaos between 4th and 5th. So we are going to be one of the last in line, while the flagship armies from the starter set (aka SM + <other&gt or the ones who are so seriously gimped by outdatedness (poor Necrons) get priority. It kind of sucks being in the middle worse than being at the end. At least the Necrons and the DE can look foreward to having a book written for the same rules that will be used for the next couple of years. Don't like it? Play Mureensh, they always get the modernized list when new rules come out, because without them GW would go broke. Some 4th ed. codex were very powerful in 4th (my Eldar for instance), while others (Tau) were powerful in 3rd and nerfed by alll the newer 4th stuff. Guard sucked balls in 4th, but it was a brand new game once follow-up-into-close-combat was gotten rid of. Now they Bludgeon everyone. Just one rules shift and the whole army has a HUGE leg up.
Some stand the test of time better than others. Others suffer from rules ambiguities (Black Templar smoke launchers?) or just downright one-upsmanship codex creep (all SM armies proxy as Blood Angels or Space Wolves yay!). The ones that take the longest to revamp are the ones that were good despite the test of time. Nobody is playing much Necrons any more... hmmm... make them awesomer! Sell more... sell more...

It seems to me that Eldar are doing just fine in 5th.

I'd rather play against Space Wolves or BA than against an 'Ard Eldar list with a competent general.

Yeah, yeah "Anecdotal evidence hurrrrr." Between Wave Serpent energy fields, fortune and Crack Shot I think Eldar have some cards up their sleeve.

OoieGoie wrote:Makes me wonder how some Codices can be upgraded twice, leaving some not to be upgraded at all? What is GW smoken?

For various reasons. To use WHFB Army Books as an example, Bretonians and Wood Elves both had 6th edition army books in 7th edition WHFB. But both armies did decently well (allowing for the fact that some of the 7th edition army books were ridiculously powerful). Tomb Kings (which will be the oldest book around when the Dark Eldar Codex is officially released) and Ogre Kingdoms were both 6th edition books as well... and they didn't play all that well. But neither army is very popular (which is a shame because a properly painted Tomb Kings army is absolutely gorgeous), which meant that there wasn't as much of an economic incentive for GW to redo the army books in question.


I don't know what GW intends to do with my Eldar, though I suspect that the Codex will be delayed. Personally, I think I'd prefer that the new Codex be released as the first second (they're not space marines, after all...) codex of 6th edition as opposed to once again being stuck for a long time with a codex that was released shortly before the new edition of the rules went through (which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

Eumerin wrote:(which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

How so?

good job. I think I would even pick the same #1 and 2.
There's a good scene in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts were a guardsman remarks "The Imperial Guard always wins" and they all chuckle because its a common expression and because its true.

They may lose a battle: Hell on one planet they may lose thousands of battles over hundreds of years taking horrendous 10,000:1 causualty rates but it matters not. There's always more guard. The waves and waves of infantry never stop and the big guns never tire. After the world is a blasted, wrecked, lifeless moonscape and the enemy is crushed to death under the weight of Guardsmen corpses they will plant the Emperor Flag......and then leave, because well...that planet is useless now; but they won. The Imperial Guard always wins and they're the only faction that can claim as such.

Monster Rain wrote:

Eumerin wrote:(which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

How so?

The 5th edition version of Fleet now only pertains to charging into Close Combat. Banshees get it and can use it. Scorpions don't get it (due to the latter's 3+ AS).

When was the last time that you saw a group of Guardians that actually wanted to get into close combat? Ergo, for them Fleet goes from being quite useful (its state in 4th edition) to being almost completely superfluous.

Eumerin wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Eumerin wrote:(which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

How so?

The 5th edition version of Fleet now only pertains to charging into Close Combat. Banshees get it and can use it. Scorpions don't get it (due to the latter's 3+ AS).

When was the last time that you saw a group of Guardians that actually wanted to get into close combat? Ergo, for them Fleet goes from being quite useful (its state in 4th edition) to being almost completely superfluous.

Storm Guardians?

Vaktathi wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Eumerin wrote:(which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

How so?

The 5th edition version of Fleet now only pertains to charging into Close Combat. Banshees get it and can use it. Scorpions don't get it (due to the latter's 3+ AS).

When was the last time that you saw a group of Guardians that actually wanted to get into close combat? Ergo, for them Fleet goes from being quite useful (its state in 4th edition) to being almost completely superfluous.

Storm Guardians?

If your that desperate to get your Storm Guardians into melee combat that you're actually going to run them in order to reach the enemy, then you're probably in very, very, very desperate straits... It's generally considered that the best thing about Storm Guardians is the fact that they can take two flamers (there are much better ways to get CC Troops squads and Fusion Guns).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Eumerin wrote:(which is our current somewhat nebulous state of things, for instance stuck with a new interpretation of Fleet of Foot that is useless for 90% of our models that have it).

How so?

The 5th edition version of Fleet now only pertains to charging into Close Combat. Banshees get it and can use it. Scorpions don't get it (due to the latter's 3+ AS).

When was the last time that you saw a group of Guardians that actually wanted to get into close combat? Ergo, for them Fleet goes from being quite useful (its state in 4th edition) to being almost completely superfluous.

Storm Guardians?

If you're that desperate to get your Storm Guardians into melee combat that you're actually going to run them in order to reach the enemy, then you're probably in very, very, very desperate straits... It's generally considered that the best thing about Storm Guardians is the fact that they can take two flamers (there are much better ways to get CC Troops squads and Fusion Guns).

Melessia when do you think the Storm Raven will come out? Or do you think the Grey Knights will come out first?

Asherian Command wrote:Melessia when do you think the Storm Raven will come out? Or do you think the Grey Knights will come out first?

There was a rumour that the Stormraven and a Furioso-style dreadnought were coming out in January as a BA 2nd wave. As much as I hate to see GW wasting time on yet another SM Dreadnought kit, they might have some GK appropriate bits on the sprue and thus kill two birds with one stone.

Man, I was actually looking at some Ork stuff today, as a possible third army when I have my Nids up and running - their new vehicles are absolutely badass.

The constant droning of 'Orks are the best' that tends to find its way into every thread has completely put me off playing them.

Eumerin wrote:

If your that desperate to get your Storm Guardians into melee combat that you're actually going to run them in order to reach the enemy, then you're probably in very, very, very desperate straits... It's generally considered that the best thing about Storm Guardians is the fact that they can take two flamers (there are much better ways to get CC Troops squads and Fusion Guns).

That depends greatly on what your target is and what the squad is equipped/left with. It's very useful on them and I'm glad they have it.

SaintHazard wrote:Crap.

I was on... er... vacation again, and missed like seven pages.

I totally would've called IG at #1, mostly because everyone and their mother expected Orks at #1, and Melissia is crafty like that.

Don't worry, I called it for you.

Vaktathi wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

If your that desperate to get your Storm Guardians into melee combat that you're actually going to run them in order to reach the enemy, then you're probably in very, very, very desperate straits... It's generally considered that the best thing about Storm Guardians is the fact that they can take two flamers (there are much better ways to get CC Troops squads and Fusion Guns).

That depends greatly on what your target is and what the squad is equipped/left with. It's very useful on them and I'm glad they have it.

Be serious now - how frequently do you use Fleet with your Storm Guardians?

And the follow-up - how often do you actually see Storm Guardians outside of your own army? I've seen quite a few Eldar players, but the only Guardian squads that I've ever seen being used are of the Defender variety. And even those seem to be increasingly scarce these days.

Fleet is a largely superfluous ability for the Craftworld Eldar. There are a couple of units that can take advantage of it, but by and large most of our units would be better served by shooting instead of hoping to roll high enough on a d6 to be in range for an assault during the subsequent phase. And the kicker is that because specialization is built into the army, Fleet's currently superfluousness is the way that things are *supposed* to work (ignoring for the moment that Fleet was actually more like Run when the Codex was written).

Fleet isn't always useful, I can't deny that, however sometimes it is. If I have a choice of totally annihilating one enemy unit with flamers and then sitting there in the open, or getting into two different IG squads with a fleet move and being able to hide in CC for a turn before wiping them and moving on, I'll use that fleet ability. Stormguardians aren't too rare, they aren't super popular, but they aren't unheard of. Likewise with Defenders. Yes, Storms are primarily taken for flamers, they work very well for that, but that's not their sole purpose or capability.


Granted, Fleet is not what it once was for the Eldar, but it's also not unwelcome. I'm sure once Eldar get their 5E book (whenever that may be) unit design will take this into account and Fleet, even if the rule is unchanged, will become more useful and possibly more widely available to the army as a whole. It's not something that one can really do anything about now however.

Asherian Command wrote:Melessia when do you think the Storm Raven will come out? Or do you think the Grey Knights will come out first?

I think the two are intertwined.

-Loki- wrote:Man, I was actually looking at some Ork stuff today, as a possible third army when I have my Nids up and running - their new vehicles are absolutely badass.

The constant droning of 'Orks are the best' that tends to find its way into every thread has completely put me off playing them.

As opposed to, I dunno, Space Marines, Tyranids, Tau, Guard, Eldar...

(making the sound that Cheese makes from "foster's home for imaginary friends") I LIKE CHOCOLATE MILK!!!!.....and chocolate cookies, and any type of cookies, so long as they are real raisins, and not something else...lol. O yeah, umm, I was looking on forgeworld, and I saw a bunch of models that I haven't seen on games workshop. If i were to get these models, and want to use them, how would I go about using them, and where are there rules? Some1 dropped a hint about them being in those books you have to get from forgeworld, but they dont know which 1 it is...any clue?

krato123 wrote:(making the sound that Cheese makes from "foster's home for imaginary friends") I LIKE CHOCOLATE MILK!!!!.....and chocolate cookies, and any type of cookies, so long as they are real raisins, and not something else...lol. O yeah, umm, I was looking on forgeworld, and I saw a bunch of models that I haven't seen on games workshop. If i were to get these models, and want to use them, how would I go about using them, and where are there rules? Some1 dropped a hint about them being in those books you have to get from forgeworld, but they dont know which 1 it is...any clue?

First, you should start a new thread to ask this.
Second, we can't tell you what book they're in unless you tell us which models you're looking at.
Third, non sequitors are often less funny than you think they are.

1st, I play tau. I like tau.
2nd, tau.
3rd, that was an A. B. convo, mr. McDouche,....entitled 2 Melissia and her only...I didn't specify, but with me talking about the cookies, 1 would think you'd have enough common sense to realize I was talking to the person with the cookies...so unless you have a snickerdoodle or an answer to my question.....

What? I find that so wrong.

Some of us find spamming wrong too.

Everyone is disappointed, it seems.

*shakes head in disappointment. Pulls out a gun and shoots an Elite for enjoyment.*
He was taking my Klondike bar!
Anyway I really liked this thread glad to see other people liked it

This thread is now generating lots of Mod Alerts.

It seems as if it has reached its natural conclusion.

Goodnight.