Oh man, If I didn't have all these errands to run I could have responded to all this viking/cultural relativism brouhaha going on in a timeley matter

"If you want to say "vikings did horrible things so they're not cool", then there is no such thing as a cool people.
Christian knights? Yep, they did plenty of horrible things. Mongols? Oh yeah. THe germanic tribes? Yep. The Arabic armies under the likes of Saladin and other such heroes? Yes. And so on and so forth. All modern armies have their occasional fuckups, and medieval armies were certainly no exception. "

This is irrelevant, I'm not claiming one culture is cooler or better than another, just that vikings were not.

@1hadhq, Lost Vikings is an awesome puzzle video-game that has little to do with actual vikings

Most people aren't history majors so while the actual vikings may have been x,y,z they now are percieved as the death metal, horned-helmeted wackos we all love/hate today. So when people say they like vikings they usually mean that. Same sort of thing has happened to the ninjas.

On topic: I would take orks seriorusly as the grimdark menace to civilization, yadda yadda yadda if they didn't talk like idiots. That pretty much instantaneosuly makes them silly rather than fearsome techno-barbarians.

LOLvikings.

I never could take the Space Wolves seriously (Or any space marine faction, for that matter). Of course, I did start WH40K after the release of the 5th edition codex. I really have to read the books, since apparently those flesh them out well.

Melissia wrote:Orks ARE dark. You're just not looking beyond the surface to the true horror of the Ork menace.

This I DEFINITELY agree with.

Seriously, Orks are effing terrifying when you actually consider what they do. They swarm all across the galaxy in huge hordes, killing for no reason other than fun. If you fight them, they kill you; if you don't, they kill you trying to get you to fight them. If you run away, they kill you for being boring. Oh, and they'll kill you for not being Orky enuff. You think you can avoid them? Think again, they're the most numerous and widespread faction in the Milky Way. Think you can fight them? Good luck with that, since Orks are so numerous and physically powerful; if you manage to kill one, another will pop up to take its place with a grin.

From an Orky or outsider point of view, Orks are hilarious. From an average Imperial citizen's? They're worse than the Tyranids, Eldar, and Tau combined.

"Seriously, Orks are effing terrifying when you actually consider what they do. They swarm all across the galaxy in huge hordes, killing for no reason other than fun. If you fight them, they kill you; if you don't, they kill you trying to get you to fight them. If you run away, they kill you for being boring. Oh, and they'll kill you for not being Orky enuff. You think you can avoid them? Think again, they're the most numerous and widespread faction in the Milky Way. Think you can fight them? Good luck with that, since Orks are so numerous and physically powerful; if you manage to kill one, another will pop up to take its place with a grin."

I feel like all this terrifying-ness is shattered as soon as an ork opens his mouth, but you are right, to an imperial citizen, eldar, tau, etc that doesn't really matter.

So . . . there is a part of 40k that you take seriously?

I have this to say about ork 'language'. Its always shown as orks speaking low gothic. Okay, now take any place, do they speak say english the same way as where you are standing? No. Now phoneticise what you hear them say. Eventually you'll find a way of making them translate to something similar to orks. Given that orks are a seperate race to the imperium... the fact that they are speaking an 'imperium language' is impressive in of itself.

Manchu wrote:So . . . there is a part of 40k that you take seriously?

I guess not actually. Maybe silly is a better word? Or more silly than usual? I mean for example do you think a necron is as much of hooligan as an ork?


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the_ferrett wrote:I have this to say about ork 'language'. Its always shown as orks speaking low gothic. Okay, now take any place, do they speak say english the same way as where you are standing? No. Now phoneticise what you hear them say. Eventually you'll find a way of making them translate to something similar to orks. Given that orks are a seperate race to the imperium... the fact that they are speaking an 'imperium language' is impressive in of itself.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, orks speak the way they do to make us (the players) laugh, what the guardsmen actually hears doesn't really matter. I hope claiming orks can be comedic isn't considered a crazy assumption...

Orks ARE a comic relief. At face value. But once you read a few pages on them, you start realising that there's more to them than meets the casual gamer's eye. I'll laugh at their silly names and the fact their most famous Doctor put dynamite into people's heads while he was performing surgery...but at the same time, I realise just how inspired a society whose commerce is made solely on regenerating teeth actually is.

Orks are satire.

I've always liked the wolves. I've got a trio of very old Techmarines (wearing standard Mark IV armor with molded hands on the shoulderpads) painted up as Space Wolves, and I keep meaning to go ahead and fill the rest of the army out.

Unfortunately I never quite seem to get started...

Araenion: So making sure your notoriously backstabbing customers don't backstab you is hilarious.... Man you have some twisted humor.

Yeah seriously, TBH that was a pretty smart move.

Remember, the reason he activated said bombs? Because those nobz ganged up on him and beat him nearly to death, only his faithful (And surprisingly loyal) grot servants saving his life, but at the cost of his sanity.


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asimo77 wrote:I feel like all this terrifying-ness is shattered as soon as an ork opens his mouth, but you are right, to an imperial citizen, eldar, tau, etc that doesn't really matter.

You think that just because they can't pronounce the letter H makes them less terrifying?

You think that, somehow, the shout of "WAAAGH!" echoing across an entire world is somehow not terrifying?

Want to know something frightening about an Ork? Ork Kommandoz are as sneaky as, if not sneakier than a Lictor.

Want to know something frightening about an Ork? Tankbustas know as much or more about blowing vehicles up than Astartes devastator squads.

Want to know something frightening about an Ork? For every Ork you kill, a dozen more orkoid creatures will pop up sometime within the next year.

Want to know something frightening about an Ork? Exterminatus is the only way to permanently remove Ork presence from a world.

Want to know something even more terrifying about Orks? They outnumber all other sentient races in the galaxy combined. This includes the teeming, countless masses of humanity, the unnumbered empires of smaller races like the Tau, the various mutant and xeno servants of Chaos... all of them.

They are the unstoppable, unending barbarian hordes pounding at the gates... blasting at the gates... sneaking around and digging under and flying over the gates. Ramming THROUGH th gates. And goddamn you people for making me talk about them before I got to their position in the list.

the_ferrett wrote:Araenion: So making sure your notoriously backstabbing customers don't backstab you is hilarious.... Man you have some twisted humor.

To be honest, my horrific sense of humour notwithstanding, it was pretty hilarious reading that part of the Ork codex.

Suffice it to say, that for me there is no 40k without Orks.

Melissia wrote:Yeah seriously, TBH that was a pretty smart move.

Remember, the reason he activated said bombs? Because those nobz ganged up on him and beat him nearly to death, only his faithful (And surprisingly loyal) grot servants saving his life, but at the cost of his sanity.

He planted dynamite into his patient's heads. If that's not comical, I don't know what is. Meanwhile, it was indeed a pretty smart move, as you say. I found lots of things like this in the Ork codex. Funny stuff that actually made perfect sense when one but looks at it twice.

@ Melissia I agree that all that stuff makes them terifying, but then they say "Oi let's go krump da humies!" and then some serious cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Imagine if all that stuff you said was true about the teletubbies, they rampaged around slaughtering everything in their path, all the while singing some baby gibbersih song. Kinda makes you re-evaluate the situation.

asimo77 wrote:but then they say "Oi let's go krump da humies!" and then some serious cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Not at all for me. That's just an accent, and a funny accent doesn't change one's ability to destroy everything that one sees. And when I imagine that in a deep, throaty voice as described in the codex, it's not funny, it's the sound of a barbarian talking in his distinct accent saying he's going to brutally murder you.

asimo77 wrote:@ Melissia I agree that all that stuff makes them terifying, but then they say "Oi let's go krump da humies!" and then some serious cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Imagine if all that stuff you said was true about the teletubbies, they rampaged around slaughtering everything in their path, all the while singing some baby gibbersih song. Kinda makes you re-evaluate the situation.

Dear god, that would just make it scarier!

asimo77 wrote: Imagine if all that stuff you said was true about the teletubbies, they rampaged around slaughtering everything in their path, all the while singing some baby gibbersih song. Kinda makes you re-evaluate the situation.

Scary stuff.

Fair enough I can see why one would think of orks like that. At the very least they bring something new to 40k.

Also maybe the teletubby example was a bit too frightening, I was considering Barney as well but I don't know if that would be worse.

No, the only way Barney would exist in my imagination is if he was being flayed alive by a Necron.

A necron with a malfunctioning Gauss Flayer which caused him to flay alive extremely slowly and excruciatingly painfully.

My god why such hate for Barney!?!? What did he ever do to you?!?! D:

Okay, edited the last two into the first post, and now starting on number five.

Asimo, I think you just don't understand 40k well enough quite yet.

Melissia wrote:Suffice it to say, that for me there is no 40k without Orks.

This is absolutely correct. They are as essential as Space Marines.

Care to elaborate on not knowing what 40k is all about? I previously said that orks add something new to 40k, and while I don't like them I would never want them removed.

I guess if I like different armies I don't know anything about 40k?

It also doesn't help that SW, Orks, and GK are my least favorite armies (and the only armies I don't like) so the last huge chunk of my posts probably appear very antagonistic.

5: SPACE MARINES


And here it is. The big one, in GW's eyes. It pretty much defines what a fifth edition codex is-- no unit is truly useless, there's multiple competitive builds and a huge variety of builds period, a huge variety of units to choose from, representing a very large variety of forces in a single codex. This is, in part, the reason why fifth edition rocks.

While it has its limitations (such as no all-terminator armies, for example), it's still the ideal by which all other fifth edition codices are compared to, and indeed by which all other non-fifth edition codices are compared to when it comes to playing them in fifth edition. While I'm iffy about using special characters-- and I really wish they just used something like Sagas as previously mentioned-- they're still at least an easy way to ensure that people know what your army can do just by looking at it (in this case, by looking at its HQ models). While many people miss fourth edition's customization, very few people would argue against the inclusion of such units as Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnaughts, Land Speeder Storms, Sternguard and Vanguard (okay, the Vanguard are hard to use properly, but not everything can be a perfect hit), cheap TH/SS terminators, the inclusion of the Master of the Forge and his bringing back of hte Conversion beamer, etc. It brought a lot of new stuff in, as well as some of the older stuff that was missing.

The army can be built around scouts, or tacticals, and provides a huge amount of support options for these units. Or alternatively one could minimize their scout/tactical purchases (which I dislike seeing, but it does add to variety) and focus on the support functions themselves, leading to a Space Marine list that doesn't have to look the same twice every time you play it while still being quite competitive even with dramatic changes to the list. It's also part of the reason why fifth edition sucks, but I blame that on Matt Ward more than anything else. But marinewank aside, it's viable fluff and offers a huge amount of customization with widely varying DIY chapters that let you completely bypass the spank and produce something completely of your own (this compared to Space Wolves, who in the fluff don't have any descendant chapters, or Dark/Blood Angels, whose limited descendant chapters tend to be cursed like the Lamentors).

All in all, as I said, this is the codex every other fifth edition codex is going to be compared to. And there's a reason for this-- because it's a damned good codex with one of the most balanced and interesting army lists yet released. So yeah, Space Marines of all factions gets the fifth slot.

asimo77 wrote:@ Melissia I agree that all that stuff makes them terifying, but then they say "Oi let's go krump da humies!" and then some serious cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Imagine if all that stuff you said was true about the teletubbies, they rampaged around slaughtering everything in their path, all the while singing some baby gibbersih song. Kinda makes you re-evaluate the situation.

Yea, that pretty much sums it up. They are indeed horrifying monsters, but they sound ridiculous. I need proper spelling and grammar for me to take something seriously, and Orks seem to be incapable of doing that. As for your arguments for why they are scary, all the codices have that. The Necrons have the whole "ancient beyond imagining with tech so far advanced it looks like magic to the AdMech, out to harvest your soul for the gods", the humans have "most powerful empire in the history of existence that is out to exterminate anybody who doesn't worship a decaying corpse," and so on. Everybody is terrifying, but Orks try to be funny while doing it, and it doesn't work. Yes, I can accept that they do talk like that, but there is no need to write the codex in that language, name everything with ridiculous titles, and generally treat what should be a true menace to galactic security like a joke.

asimo77 wrote:Care to elaborate on not knowing what 40k is all about?

You seem to lack understanding about the factions that you claim are your least favorite. Maybe they are your least favorite nonetheless. But that dislike doesn't seem to be based on much knowledge.

Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do? Their mouths aren't actually capable of pronouncing all of the sounds that ours are (or at least they find it very difficult), and are capable of pronouncing sounds we find difficult. And their priorities when it comes to language are far different from ours.

Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

Space Mreens are fifth, eh? I like your comments on the codex itself, but it really would have been nice to see more of what you thought of the fluff.

Can't wait for the next few armies, of course.

Manchu wrote:

asimo77 wrote:Care to elaborate on not knowing what 40k is all about?

You seem to lack understanding about the factions that you claim are your least favorite. Maybe they are your least favorite nonetheless. But that dislike doesn't seem to be based on much knowledge.

Ok I don't like orks because of their comedic slant, and ramshackle appearance- Would you disagree that they do not look ramshackle and do not have a comedic slant?

I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

I don't like GK because they are the elite of the elite and nearly infallaible- Would you say GK are not the most elite of the imperium?

Flaming_Spider wrote:They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

Why should their units be spelled differently? That's the way the Orks say it. Shoota = "Shooter", a catchall term for a wide variety of weapons of roughly assault rifle size (well, assault rifle for an Ork, LMG/HMG for a human).

Should we start calling Tau Fire Warrior squad leaders "Fire Warrior Sergeants" instead of "Shas-ui"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroman wrote:but it really would have been nice to see more of what you thought of the fluff.

I prefer not to think about Matt Ward's "fluff". You probably noticed this in the Blood Angels review as well.

Obviously, the Space Wolves are erudite gentlemen, the Orks are totally serious and use elegant technology, and the Grey Knights are secretly horribly weak and just act intimidating to scare away the IRS.

@Melissa: Well, there's plenty of other Space Marine fluff other than Ward's. I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether you thought it was stupid or appealed to you.

Melissia wrote:5: SPACE MARINES


And here it is. The big one, in GW's eyes. It pretty much defines what a fifth edition codex is-- no unit is truly useless, there's multiple competitive builds and a huge variety of builds period, a huge variety of units to choose from, representing a very large variety of forces in a single codex. This is, in part, the reason why fifth edition rocks.

While it has its limitations (such as no all-terminator armies, for example), it's still the ideal by which all other fifth edition codices are compared to, and indeed by which all other non-fifth edition codices are compared to when it comes to playing them in fifth edition. While I'm iffy about using special characters-- and I really wish they just used something like Sagas as previously mentioned-- they're still at least an easy way to ensure that people know what your army can do just by looking at it (in this case, by looking at its HQ models). While many people miss fourth edition's customization, very few people would argue against the inclusion of such units as Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnaughts, Land Speeder Storms, Sternguard and Vanguard (okay, the Vanguard are hard to use properly, but not everything can be a perfect hit), cheap TH/SS terminators, the inclusion of the Master of the Forge and his bringing back of hte Conversion beamer, etc. It brought a lot of new stuff in, as well as some of the older stuff that was missing.

The army can be built around scouts, or tacticals, and provides a huge amount of support options for these units. Or alternatively one could minimize their scout/tactical purchases (which I dislike seeing, but it does add to variety) and focus on the support functions themselves, leading to a Space Marine list that doesn't have to look the same twice every time you play it while still being quite competitive even with dramatic changes to the list. It's also part of the reason why fifth edition sucks, but I blame that on Matt Ward more than anything else. But marinewank aside, it's viable fluff and offers a huge amount of customization with widely varying DIY chapters that let you completely bypass the spank and produce something completely of your own (this compared to Space Wolves, who in the fluff don't have any descendant chapters, or Dark/Blood Angels, whose limited descendant chapters tend to be cursed like the Lamentors).

All in all, as I said, this is the codex every other fifth edition codex is going to be compared to. And there's a reason for this-- because it's a damned good codex with one of the most balanced and interesting army lists yet released. So yeah, Space Marines of all factions gets the fifth slot.

Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

Asherian Command wrote:Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

Eldar.

Who I hate, but whatever. The Eldar just tick me off.

Necroman wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

Eldar.

Who I hate, but whatever. The Eldar just tick me off.

Probably because your a necron player?

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

At least it fits with the grimdarkness of 40k and takes itself seriously. Necrons aren't played as comedic relief, while Orks are. It's that part that bothers me most, that they treat Orks like a joke, that they're there just to be funny.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

At least it fits with the grimdarkness of 40k and takes itself seriously. Necrons aren't played as comedic relief, while Orks are. It's that part that bothers me most, that they treat Orks like a joke, that they're there just to be funny.

And a tide of bloodthirsty green-skinned monsters that want nothing more than to kill you for laughs is not scary?

Yeah, they talk funny. So do many people.

You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

Asherian Command wrote:Probably because your a necron player?

No, I just really hate the Eldar.

I mean, their visual style is garish and filled with bright colors, yet their personalities tend towards the ridiculously somber. They tend to be manipulative to the extreme. Their hats look stupid, their guns look like toys, and I always hate elves. Oh, and they created a Chaos God of sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll.

Like I said, I just don't like Eldar.

That's funny, I really do like Eldar. As long as I ignore the "oh, we are a dying race, oh woe is me, I shall now cry!" aspect of them they're damned cool to me. And, conveniently enough, I do ignore that part!

asimo77 wrote:Ok I don't like orks because of their comedic slant, and ramshackle appearance- Would you disagree that they do not look ramshackle and do not have a comedic slant?

The idea that Orks are only ramshackle-looking comedians is simply incorrect. The way that you trivialize them indicates that you haven't read much about them.

I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

You called them boorish, womaninzing broskis who attacked the Thousand Sons without cause. Also incorrect. And it also indicates that you don't know very much (or really anything) about them.

I don't like GK because they are the elite of the elite and nearly infallaible- Would you say GK are not the most elite of the imperium?

Sure GK are elite but you're missing the point again: they're super (x2) secret daemon killers, and so they are elite.

Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

they talk funny because A) their mouths are not exactly designed for talking like a human would.

and B) they are not much smarter than their squig cusions.

You're using their accents with a human voice, not an Ork voice.

I quote: "When an Ork speaks, it is in a slow, gruff tone thick with saliva and gutteral curses. His words are sparse, brutal, and straight to the point."

Melissia wrote:That's funny, I really do like Eldar. As long as I ignore the "oh, we are a dying race, oh woe is me, I shall now cry!" aspect of them they're damned cool to me. And, conveniently enough, I do ignore that part!

Oh, thanks for reminding me of another part I hate.

It's like depression has become a species-wide trait.

Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They have an incredibly crude language of their own.

Many speak low-gothic to humans because humans understand insults in low-gothic.

Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They do have a language....

They do. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an example of the Ork language at work-- his name is taken from Ork language, not Low Gothic.

Thing is, they like to insult their enemies. So they use Low Gothic when fighting humans. And probably some debased form of Eldar when they fight that race. And same with Tau.

Asherian Command wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They do have a language....

Then why not use that instead of playing bad pronunciation for laughs?
Especially in the codex, unit names, for example.

Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

Necroman wrote:It's like depression has become a species-wide trait.

But remember: Eldar are not actually somber all the time. They are given to wild mood swings, by human standards. By comparison, humans are utter stoics. The Craftworld Eldar try to keep things under wraps by their strict devotion to one pursuit at a time. But some, especially the warriors, become emotionally obsessed with their paths. Others can't suffer themselves to adopt any path and wander around the Webway. I think this is one of the most interesting things about them.

Regarding Orks: that Cockney accent isn't just funny. To Brits, it has other associations.

Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

if you want to argue this, then I would say 40K would suffer from lack of Orks. Even some of the most up, sad stories out there tend to have their funny moments. It adds variety.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

Attention attention! Please reframe from calling the orcs comedians! They enslave entire planets. They are pretty evil dude, you guys have obviously never read any of their lore. or haven't paid attention to their lore.

Asherian Command wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

Attention attention! Please reframe from calling the orcs comedians! They enslave entire planets. They are pretty evil dude, you guys have obviously never read any of their lore. or haven't paid attention to their lore.

I have read their fluff, and yes, they are terrifying. It's the comedic aspect that bothers me so much. They should be scary, but they're not, because they sound like idiots.

And I disagree. They fit perfectly into 40k, as without them there IS no 40k. Without Orks, where are the endless barbarians constantly battering the Imperium and draining its resources?

The armies of Chaos? Oh please, they can barely even threaten a single sector of space at a time. Thirteen failed black crusades and they've just barely managed to get a foothold on Cadia.

The Tyranid hive fleets? Without the Orks to take up so much of the Imperium's resources, the Tyranids would fall before the Imperium's overwhelming firepower like wheat to a scythe.

Eldar? Tau? Pah, they don't even damn qualify, they're struggling to survive, nevermind to conquer the galaxy.

But Orks? They aren't struggling to conquer the galaxy.

They already have.

Manchu wrote:

asimo77 wrote:Ok I don't like orks because of their comedic slant, and ramshackle appearance- Would you disagree that they do not look ramshackle and do not have a comedic slant?

The idea that Orks are only ramshackle-looking comedians is simply incorrect. The way that you trivialize them indicates that you haven't read much about them.

I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

You called them boorish, womaninzing broskis who attacked the Thousand Sons without cause. Also incorrect. And it also indicates that you don't know very much (or really anything) about them.

I don't like GK because they are the elite of the elite and nearly infallaible- Would you say GK are not the most elite of the imperium?

Sure GK are elite but you're missing the point again: they're super (x2) secret daemon killers, and so they are elite.

So you think the way orks speak isn't intended for comedic purposes at all? Perhaps you have no sense of humour or you speak just like them. Also I don't know what to say about the ramshackle things, I mean just look at the GW models, seriously do you think those don't look ramshackle and incoherent?

I shouldn't have used such colloquial language (my god I'm saying that on a forum?) in reference SW i.e. broski and so on, I was getting at their tendancy to have a good time (like frat boys) now and then. I corrected myself on the Prospero thing, Horus more or less decieved them, and the Emperor gave them orders and so on. But you still have not contested the viking and feasting aspect, do you seem to think this isn't a part of their fluff, because that's why I don't like them?

Yes I know GK hunt daemons but again I said I don't like them for being super elte, them being daemonhunters is irrelevant as to why I do not like them. Do you somehow think GK are not elite supersoldiers?

I'm trying to be polite here, but as silly as it sounds, it's a bit insulting to accuse someone they don't know anything about their toy soldiers game. it's like if someone accuses you of not knowing anything in your field of study, vocation, major, or hobby even.


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"They do. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an example of the Ork language at work-- his name is taken from Ork language, not Low Gothic."

I thought that name was based on Margaret Thatcher, at least that's what I've heard.

Melissia wrote:And I disagree. They fit perfectly into 40k, as without them there IS no 40k. Without Orks, where are the endless barbarians constantly battering the Imperium and draining its resources?

The armies of Chaos? Oh please, they can barely even threaten a single sector of space at a time. Thirteen failed black crusades and they've just barely managed to get a foothold on Cadia.

The Tyranid hive fleets? Without the Orks to take up so much of the Imperium's resources, the Tyranids would fall before the Imperium's overwhelming firepower like wheat to a scythe.

Eldar? Tau? Pah, they don't even damn qualify, they're struggling to survive, nevermind to conquer the galaxy.

But Orks? They aren't struggling to conquer the galaxy.

They already have.

And there's another part that bugs me so much, according to their fluff, the main rulebook, and any mention of them anywhere, they have already won. There's no point to playing 40k anymore. All they are doing is delaying the inevitable. Why play if your going to lose to a race that has been made literally unkillable? All the other races can be eliminated, but not the Orks. Why make something like that? It serves no purpose other than to make people like me hate them. A gigantic, overpowered empire of bloodthirsty monsters. GW have set themselves up to get rid of all the other factions. They will all be eliminated by Orks, and then you all can have the gaming halls and scream WAAAGH! all you want. Nobody else will be able to play.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:And I disagree. They fit perfectly into 40k, as without them there IS no 40k. Without Orks, where are the endless barbarians constantly battering the Imperium and draining its resources?

The armies of Chaos? Oh please, they can barely even threaten a single sector of space at a time. Thirteen failed black crusades and they've just barely managed to get a foothold on Cadia.

The Tyranid hive fleets? Without the Orks to take up so much of the Imperium's resources, the Tyranids would fall before the Imperium's overwhelming firepower like wheat to a scythe.

Eldar? Tau? Pah, they don't even damn qualify, they're struggling to survive, nevermind to conquer the galaxy.

But Orks? They aren't struggling to conquer the galaxy.

They already have.

And there's another part that bugs me so much, according to their fluff, the main rulebook, and any mention of them anywhere, they have already won. There's no point to playing 40k anymore. All they are doing is delaying the inevitable. Why play if your going to lose to a race that has been made literally unkillable? All the other races can be eliminated, but not the Orks. Why make something like that? It serves no purpose other than to make people like me hate them. A gigantic, overpowered empire of bloodthirsty monsters. GW have set themselves up to get rid of all the other factions. They will all be eliminated by Orks, and then you all can have the gaming halls and scream WAAAGH! all you want. Nobody else will be able to play.

also part of their fluff is the fact they enjoy fighting so much, they will fight eachother too!

thus, they will never unite to crush the galaxy.

Because crushing the galaxy would be boring. What's the point of only having Orks to fight? It's more interesting fighting 'umies, and tin-can 'umies, and 'nidz, and the pointy-eared gits, and so on and so forth. Even fighting Tau is fun because it gives the Orks opportunity to apply "needs more dakka!", giving the war's title, "the war of dakka".

They're basically the ruling race. The reason every other faction is alive is because Orks want to fight them.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:And I disagree. They fit perfectly into 40k, as without them there IS no 40k. Without Orks, where are the endless barbarians constantly battering the Imperium and draining its resources?

The armies of Chaos? Oh please, they can barely even threaten a single sector of space at a time. Thirteen failed black crusades and they've just barely managed to get a foothold on Cadia.

The Tyranid hive fleets? Without the Orks to take up so much of the Imperium's resources, the Tyranids would fall before the Imperium's overwhelming firepower like wheat to a scythe.

Eldar? Tau? Pah, they don't even damn qualify, they're struggling to survive, nevermind to conquer the galaxy.

But Orks? They aren't struggling to conquer the galaxy.

They already have.

And there's another part that bugs me so much, according to their fluff, the main rulebook, and any mention of them anywhere, they have already won. There's no point to playing 40k anymore. All they are doing is delaying the inevitable. Why play if your going to lose to a race that has been made literally unkillable? All the other races can be eliminated, but not the Orks. Why make something like that? It serves no purpose other than to make people like me hate them. A gigantic, overpowered empire of bloodthirsty monsters. GW have set themselves up to get rid of all the other factions. They will all be eliminated by Orks, and then you all can have the gaming halls and scream WAAAGH! all you want. Nobody else will be able to play.

thats not true. introduce the orcs to the life eater virus. Done. Game over.

If you introduced all Orks in the galaxy to said virus, you'd wipe out 99% of all life in the galaxy INCLUDING non-Orks.

And there's no guarantee that it'd actually kill all the Orks...

What if an ultramarine programmed it?

lol, this whole ork thing is getting a little out of hand.
Orks generally are not taken seriously, and they're not supposed to be, just like a lot of stuff from way back then. Orks were just one of the laughable things that stuck around. fluff wise they are a bit out of place, but who cares? it's a game. And though i'll probably never play them, i'm glad they're round, i've had a few laughs from them.

Then it'd kill the Ultramarine but fail to kill everything else.

Based off of the Nightbringer fluff, I'd say that Ultramarines can be pretty stupid, far moreso than an Ork.

I'm trying to be polite here, but as silly as it sounds, it's a bit insulting to accuse someone they don't know anything about their toy soldiers game. it's like if someone accuses you of not knowing anything in your field of study, vocation, major, or hobby even.

No insult intended. You seem like a smart enough guy. You just don't seem to have read (or retained after reading) much about the 40k background yet.

Regarding Ork accents: Yes, Orks are obviously intended to be the slapstick portion of grimdark gallows humor. But that's not even close to the whole picture. The Cockney accent, to English ears, is not just funny. It also brings to mind trashy, thuggish, lowbrow cunning and stupidly serious (as well as seriously stupid) violence traditionally ascribed to the lower classes. The Orks' Cockney accent ties into the middle class fear that someone will mug you and then rape your wife and burn your house down even if you hand over all your valuables, all while laughing about it and telling jokes that you might even laugh at if you heard them under other circumstances--and of course never getting caught, neither. And that's pretty scary business.


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Melissia wrote:They're basically the ruling race. The reason every other faction is alive is because Orks want to fight them.

The first sentence is simply wrong. The second sentence is a major, fangirlish overstatement.

And btw melissa, though i don't exactly agree with the order, thanks for taking the time & putting this post together. I always enjoy reading these things

Manchu wrote:

I'm trying to be polite here, but as silly as it sounds, it's a bit insulting to accuse someone they don't know anything about their toy soldiers game. it's like if someone accuses you of not knowing anything in your field of study, vocation, major, or hobby even.

No insult intended. You seem like a smart enough guy. You just don't seem to have read (or retained after reading) much about the 40k background yet.

Regarding Ork accents: Yes, Orks are obviously intended to be the slapstick portion of grimdark gallows humor. But that's not even close to the whole picture. The Cockney accent, to English ears, is not just funny. It also brings to mind trashy, thuggish, lowbrow cunning and stupidly serious (as well as seriously stupid) violence traditionally ascribed to the lower classes. The Orks' Cockney accent ties into the middle class fear that someone will mug you and then rape your wife and burn your house down even if you hand over all your valuables, all while laughing about it and telling jokes that you might even laugh at if you heard them under other circumstances--and of course never getting caught, neither. And that's pretty scary business.


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Melissia wrote:They're basically the ruling race. The reason every other faction is alive is because Orks want to fight them.

The first sentence is simply wrong. The second sentence is a major, fangirlish overstatement.

I just read that and I laughed at it. I don't know why... Wait Melissia is a girl!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

Manchu wrote:fangirlish

Why yes, I am an Ork fangirl, thank you for noticing ^.^

Ashaman wrote:And btw melissa, though i don't exactly agree with the order, thanks for taking the time & putting this post together. I always enjoy reading these things

Agreed. Thanks for doing this. It's an interesting read and its giving some great discussion.

^ That was oddly specific, did someone with a silly accent mug you

Anyway I guess I don't think WH40k is deep or serious enough to have meaningful satire (I of course recoginize when they try to do satire, I just don't think it amounts to anything), so I don't think there's much going on behind the scenes as far as their accent goes. Then again maybe being british and being exposed to the accent and the type of people who speak it would help me understand.

That being said I think the accent thing isn't as important to me, in fact I think it can be funny. I really don't like them for the look i.e. the ramshackle stuff, and honestly I have no idea how one could argue they don't look like they slapped crap together.


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Ugh I type so slowly, the prevous post was obviously in response to manchu

asimo77 wrote:^ That was oddly specific, did someone with a silly accent mug you

Anyway I guess I don't think WH40k is deep or serious enough to have meaningful satire (I of course recoginize when they try to do satire, I just don't think it amounts to anything), so I don't think there's much going on behind the scenes as far as their accent goes. Then again maybe being british and being exposed to the accent and the type of people who speak it would help me understand.

That being said I think the accent thing isn't as important to me, in fact I think it can be funny. I really don't like them for the look i.e. the ramshackle stuff, and honestly I have no idea how one could argue they don't look like they slapped crap together.


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Ugh I type so slowly, the prevous post was obviously in response to manchu

Yes. I can see that Manchu was hit in the head by an orkish looking man.

@Asimo: The great thing about 40k is that it steals so prolifically. Well, almost every fictional setting steals from others. But 40k seems to have a special knack for it--maybe the fluff is actually written by lootas? Anyway, while it may not itself be deep or serious enough for satire a lot of its source material is deep, serious satire. So, when you start pondering about the Witch Hunters codex . . . well, watch a few scenes from Ken Russell's "The Devils" on youtube (and don't post links to them here; this is a family friendly site). And if you want to evaluate whether there's anything seriously evil about Orks underneath all that silliness . . . well, watch some scenes from Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange." Alex, just like todays chavs, talked in a pretty silly way, too.


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Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:fangirlish

Why yes, I am an Ork fangirl, thank you for noticing ^.^

Haha, the tables have turned.

Okay, so that's all of them edited into the first post. I'm gonna go play some DoW2 and slaughter some Marines with my Boyz.

Folks, can you not laugh at something and consider it from a serious aspect at the same time?

Reading Ork codex was a blast, I read most codices and none other made me laugh. Which is perfectly fine, their purpose isn't to make comedy. Orks are written in the way they are written because of the same reasons Space Marines are indomitable super-heroes. It sells well.

My friend that plays Orks plays them because he likes their craziness and free-spirited violence. He finds them and their fluff entertaining, as opposed to the "grimdark" fluff of the other races. I'd imagine a lot of the other players feel similar about their Orks.

That's no reason to stop there and decide Orks are comic relief and as such have no place in 40k. I happen to think comic reliefs are a big part of having a hobby, but be that as it may, if you find the idea of Orks being the village idiots of the 41st millenium abhoring, why not go read some of their fluff? Then you'll realise they're just as serious and grimdark as any other race and that their obvious comedy is actually quite fitting into their whole society without being considered comical. As I said before, to me, they're just a good piece of satire.

I don't know what "The Devil's" is but did you just compare orks to "A Clockwork Orange"? ಠ_ಠ

But at this point it seems to be completely a matter of opinion so no point continuing the arguement. Before I was trying to make it clear as to why I felt one way. I don't think I can convince you that WH40k is or isn't good satire; or that you should or should not like race x. And there's no reason for me to do so, I think it's great that everyone has a favorite. Variety is the spice of life, or something right?

Wait my question hasn't been Answered!
WAIT Melissia is a girl??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?
I couldn't tell. *slaps head*

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

they talk funny because A) their mouths are not exactly designed for talking like a human would.

and B) they are not much smarter than their squig cusions.

Honestly, if you aren't playing them as soccer hooligans in space, you're missing the point of Orks completely.

It's a perfectly legitimate comparison. Clockwork Orange, along with other major dystopian novels/movies, is certainly source material for 40k. I thought Orks were a joke when I first got into 40k. Had no idea why anyone would bother with them. But after reading their codex and thinking about them, I found that they're definitely a scary bunch, just as grimdark as any other faction. They aren't my favorite by any means and I have to roll my eyes at some of Melissa's fanwankery regarding them BUT she is absolutely right to call out anyone who hasn't bothered to look past their surface.


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-Loki- wrote:Honestly, if you aren't playing them as soccer hooligans in space, you're missing the point of Orks completely.

I'd agree--and aren't soccer hooligans a pretty scary bunch of twits?

Ooh, ooh! In all this Ork-debating chaos I forgot to add...

I'm all a flutter that the Eldar are so high on this list! *cackles gleefully* Can't wait to read what Melissia has to say about them. Honestly, everyone should make a thread like this. And then the mods can make a new general topic just for that.

Go for it, this kinda stuff is always interesting reading material/debate fodder. And I promise not to get on my soapbox all the time like in this topic!

Manchu wrote:--and aren't soccer hooligans a pretty scary bunch of twits?

Especially 7-feet-tall, axe-smashing, rifle-punching, big-teethed, fungi-reincarnating, space-faring soccer hooligans.

Araenion wrote:Ooh, ooh! In all this Ork-debating chaos I forgot to add...

I'm all a flutter that the Eldar are so high on this list! *cackles gleefully* Can't wait to read what Melissia has to say about them. Honestly, everyone should make a thread like this. And then the mods can make a new general topic just for that.

I did but its not opinions on codexes. Its my Space Marine Chapters list. Which i said i was going to paint stuff.
So Melissia is a girl ok. I can' tell she really got me confused. As her hand writing seems like a guy. But now that i reread it is more like a girl now. Not that, that is bad. Its just i never knew D:

asimo77 wrote:
I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

Probably not in the way you imagine it to be. They're not doing keg stands and inviting the local Sororitas over to the dorms. They've got a strong Northern European/13th Warrior feel to them. Drinking's about ritual and tradition as much as it is tying one on. It's celebration of victory, mourning of loss, etc.

There was a thread in the Background forum recently that, in addition to getting extremely heated, discussed whether or not Space Wolves are as intelligent as other Space Marines. They do things a little differently, and they make some dumb calls about certain minor things like not wearing helmets or whatever, but overall, they wouldn't have won a lot of their battles if they were idiot frat boys instead of highly intelligent tacticians.


Though I will say that, honestly, GW missed the boat, in my opinion, by narrowing Space Wolves down to just a Nordic, rather than a pan-European "barbarian", theme. Just due to my own personal preferences, I'd be on Space Wolves like white on rice if there were room for Germanic Fenrisians rather than all of them being members of the male chapter of the Swedish bikini team.

I think the drinking thing probably just comes from my own background. I view alchohol very differently but whatever, I suppose it's not important anymore.

Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Rynn's World is an interesting read to get a better picture of orks.

Among other things, the imperial do not understand the ork's speech in that book... and they go from funny to down right horrifying. There's a scene with a painboy in the book that is fitting of an horror movie really.

Don´t mean to be a jerk but Melissia sounds like a girl name to me ( considering is her real name, which I ignore. I have a spanish girl friend called like that).

On the other hand I don´t see why SW should be dumber than, say, BT, whose views about life are even more simple.

. . . or GK, for that matter. But we mau be getting too far afield.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

Sorry, but why do you seem to like Grey Knights?

They are the single most powerful single creatures in the entire WH universe sans some super nids and gods.

They are to Space Marines as Space Marines are to IG.

I'm just curious as to why a subject (such as the Orks) can't be both hilarious and incredibly frightening at the same time. Ever seen Dr. Strangelove? That's what we call "black humor." Orks are absolutely this. They speak in an accent that, to an American, sounds ridiculous and silly. They do funny things like get distracted and replace an arm with bioniks... when you'd really needed a leg replaced. They use tiny goblins as minesweepers. They shoot tiny goblins through holes in hell into your armor, where they start scratching, clawing, and defecating uncontrollably. Sometimes the gun they use to do that feths up and fires the Ork instead of the tiny goblins. They are seriously hilarious.

But at the same time, they sweep through a system and kill every inhabitant of a given planet just 'cause it's fun. They wage wars that see billions dead 'cause they're just looking for a good fight. They're eight feet tall, weigh about five times as much as you do, carry axes as big as your torso, and will happily apply said axe to your torso all the while laughing merrily, because damnit, killin' people is just that much fun. If you kill them, ten more will rise from the ground that corpse hit in a year or so. They are seriously terrifying.

Why do hilarity and horror have to be mutually exclusive?

Orks are laughably terrifying. That's why I love them as much as I do. If they removed the grimdark, or they removed the humor, Orks would no longer be Orks, and I'd never play them again.

Edit: Also, a fine analysis of Codex: SM, which I applaud. That's three points for me so far.

Eldar are next.

Spot-on, St Hazard, much like your predictions!

I think Ork "accent" is supposed to be northern (rural) Scottish or English ghetto. I met once in London a guy from some isolated village of Scotland and I swear to god i couldn´t understand half of what he was saying ( as some of the english natives I was partying with, apparently).

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Namica wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Lol. Are you human?
do you mind if i put that in my signature?

I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Namica wrote:
That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Glad I could help.

What I said above aside, I suppose there's technically nothing in the fluff that says there couldn't be a runty little tribe in the south of Fenris that's more Gallic or Celtic or Germanic or whatever than Nordic that simply doesn't get recruited from as often.

Hell, I may just start a SW company and go with that notion.

Namica wrote:Sorry, but why do you seem to like Grey Knights?

Because I feel that Grey Knights are, out of the various Space Marines, the ones that are done the best.

Currently, I collect (in order of my starting to collect models, rather than playing them): Orks, Guard, Sisters. I plan on collecting (again in order of actually collecting hte models) Eldar and Tau next. Well, maybe not Tau. I kinda want to, and yet, I just don't feel a very strong pull to them. After that, it's Grey Knights.

Flaming_Spider wrote:But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

I don't think you can ever take issue with English being spoken in stories. Every story from 'Star Wars' to '300' has examples of characters speaking English when they shouldn't. It is not something that should be accepted as real, it's just there for your convenience.

No one in the 40k universe speaks English, not even humans. Everything you read or hear is a translation. Orks are depicted as brutish and uncouth, the speech pattern they use is just a story telling device. I personally feel it works quite well. The idea of a big ignorant Ork speaking elegantly with perfect grammar, feels unnatural even in their own language (Most Humans can't manage it either). YMMV of course.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

For me Space Marines still qualify as humans struggling against super human enemies; If the humans need two hearts and power armour to even the playing field, then all the better. Personally I think it's the imperial guard that never fitted into 40k. Perhaps because; I see them as being too close to a 20th century army. I also find it anticlimaxical, that in this epic story or Heroes and Monsters and Daemons... Everyone gets owned by a faceless mass of very un-heroic looking grunts, with flash lights and tanks.

It probably doesn't help that IG has always been one of the cheese armies in 40k, as has Space Wolves. I was disappointed SW finished higher than BA for that reason. I agree with pretty much all of what you said about Codex SM, but that does make me wonder why it only came in 5th? I think out of all my books, it is one of the ones I flick through and enjoy the most.

Manchu wrote:I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Holy crap is that one cool looking figure. He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

SmackCakes wrote:For me Space Marines still qualify as humans struggling against super human enemies; If the humans need two hearts and power armour to even the playing field, then all the better. Personally I think it's the imperial guard that never fitted into 40k. Perhaps because; I see them as being too close to a 20th century army. I also find it anticlimaxical, that in this epic story or Heroes and Monsters and Daemons... Everyone gets owned by a faceless mass of very un-heroic looking grunts, with flash lights and tanks.

It's completely logical to have a fighting force like the Imperial Guard exist in such an environment as the 40K universe from the way I see things. I feel that without the Guard and even more so without the PDF more of Imperial space wouldn't still be under Imperial control.

For me Space Marines still qualify as humans

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

At all.

Space Marines aren't human anymore. They're living weapons. They don't participate in human society in any way, shape, or form, save to kill humanity's enemies. They aren't human biologically speaking, arguably they aren't human genetically speaking, and even psychologically speaking they're alien to us.

I would go so far as to say Marines are Homo Sapiens Astartes, while humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.



Also, the Imperial Guard is FAR more heroic than the Astartes in my eyes. Why? Simple. The most basic definition of bravery, even amongst the Imperium (as shown by Amberley Vail's discussion of Ciaphas Cain at the beginning of the Cain omnibus) is confronting and overcoming fear. Humans, common humans and not Astartes, feel fear, and this must be overcome in order to destroy our enemies. So that means the Guard, the Sisters, and the Inquisition are the truly brave members of the Imperium... along with the other aspects taht aren't given an army, but Astartes? They're a weapon. They don't feel fear. Concepts of "bravery" as we know them don't really apply to them. Bravery is a very important part of being a "hero". Overcoming challenges is another-- and killing a Carnifex is a far greater challenge for Guardsmen than it is for Astartes. That the Guardsmen are in a tank doesn't matter much, considering the Carnifex can take shots from said tank and keep going, then tear the tank apart or crush it with the crew still inside.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't human anymore. They're living weapons. They don't participate in human society in any way, shape, or form, save to kill humanity's enemies.

Salamanders.

Melissia wrote:I would go so far as to say Marines are Homo Sapiens Astartes, while humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

And that is not how taxonomy works, Melissia.

I think SM have certainly "lost" or "transcended" some of their humanity, depending on your viewpoint. For "theological" purposes, however, they are still very much human. Remember that the inhumanity of Space Marines compared to normal humans is nowhere near so yawning a chasm as the inhumanity of daemons and xenos compared to any humans, including Space Marines. Let's not confuse "humanity" with being a member of the human species here.

Regarding fear: Astartes "know no fear" in the sense that they do not fear physical injury even unto death. Do they know other fears? Sure. And no Astarte is born without fear, either. The struggle to become a Space Marine is, I am sure, rife with fear. A Space Marine Scout is already a greater hero than 99% of Guardsman can even dream of becoming.


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Jayden63 wrote:He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

Someone has tried something like that. It came out . . . well, you be the judge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_htwvK3s_n0I/S3660z6AgnI/AAAAAAAAAuA/84Sey1y0FNs/s320/0003.jpg

Manchu wrote:I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Looks like Lukas the Trickster on an even crappier-looking wolf than Canis's wolf.

The only "nonhuman humans" in the game would have to be Grey Knights. Not only are they put through more and augmented more than humans, they also have no past, which gets rid of the thing that makes Space Marines human. They were in effect "born" as full grown adult who are are the most powerful weapons the imperium has. They are more living weapon than person, unlike SPace Marines who have on many occasions shown their humanity in some way shape or form (Salamanders are a splendid example of this, as are Space Wolves)

You know, with all this 'fluff hate' going on, you could make your own fluff. Dont like silly Orks? Make serious ones.

I like the idea of Eldar being space ninja's.

As do I. Psychic ninja elves from space.

Sounds so OTT that it's actually kinda cool.

SaintHazard wrote:I'm just curious as to why a subject (such as the Orks) can't be both hilarious and incredibly frightening at the same time. Ever seen Dr. Strangelove? That's what we call "black humor." Orks are absolutely this. They speak in an accent that, to an American, sounds ridiculous and silly. They do funny things like get distracted and replace an arm with bioniks... when you'd really needed a leg replaced. They use tiny goblins as minesweepers. They shoot tiny goblins through holes in hell into your armor, where they start scratching, clawing, and defecating uncontrollably. Sometimes the gun they use to do that feths up and fires the Ork instead of the tiny goblins. They are seriously hilarious.

But at the same time, they sweep through a system and kill every inhabitant of a given planet just 'cause it's fun. They wage wars that see billions dead 'cause they're just looking for a good fight. They're eight feet tall, weigh about five times as much as you do, carry axes as big as your torso, and will happily apply said axe to your torso all the while laughing merrily, because damnit, killin' people is just that much fun. If you kill them, ten more will rise from the ground that corpse hit in a year or so. They are seriously terrifying.

Why do hilarity and horror have to be mutually exclusive?

Orks are laughably terrifying. That's why I love them as much as I do. If they removed the grimdark, or they removed the humor, Orks would no longer be Orks, and I'd never play them again.

Edit: Also, a fine analysis of Codex: SM, which I applaud. That's three points for me so far.

Eldar are next.

Agreed. Just because something is intended as funny doesn't mean it can't be intimidating or even terrifying too.
Allow me to present an example; the "Pencil Trick" scene from the Dark Knight. A lot of people found that to be very funny, and rightly so - the absurdity of the Joker's dialogue and appearance makes it comical. But, when you think about what just happened, and how grotesque it actually is, whilst watching Heath Ledger leer and giggle as he slams a man's head into a pencil that drives up through his eye-socket and into his brain, you realise that, actually, that was horrible.
It's the same with Orks. Yes, they talk funny and their wackier weapons are improbable at best, but it has to be remembered that the average Ork Boy is about 2 metres tall (6ft 7in) and massively muscled. Their fearsome metabolism means that things that would kill a human are often a moderate irritation to them, and they are not afraid of dying in battle or indeed dying at all, lending them a suicidal bravado and reckless battle-lust that to humans is utterly alien and terrifying. Their machines are hulking masses of armour and guns, so heavy (in some cases) that they shake the earth as they charge towards you with the intent of crushing you under their treads before gunning down any survivors.
So yeah, Orks can be scary as well as funny.

Now I'll wait for the next one.

Manchu wrote:
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Jayden63 wrote:He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

Someone has tried something like that. It came out . . . well, you be the judge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_htwvK3s_n0I/S3660z6AgnI/AAAAAAAAAuA/84Sey1y0FNs/s320/0003.jpg

Thats the same wolf? Wow, paintjob really does makes the model. Too small.

It can't possibly be the same wolf. Look at the position of the legs in both pictures.

The idea of space marines in all that armour riding a wolf is just.. stupid IMO. But I think Melissia covered that already.

Edit: Friend of mine collects SW. I found these wolves in case he ever wants to make that abomination of a wolf squad...
http://mythicast.com/?page_id=4#ecwid:category=0&mode=product&product=1220553

OoieGoie wrote:The idea of space marines in all that armour riding a wolf is just.. stupid IMO. But I think Melissia covered that already.

Edit: Friend of mine collects SW. I found these wolves in case he ever wants to make that abomination of a wolf squad...
http://mythicast.com/?page_id=4#ecwid:category=0&mode=product&product=1220553

I've got some of those waiting for me at the post office. I love the idea of TWC, it's just far too over the top for me not to love it. The only way TWC could be more awesome if they breathed fire and gak grenades. If you disagree with me you're a boring old fogey who eats hard candy.

@Chongara: I received a pack of these last week. They are lovely.

SaintHazard wrote:It can't possibly be the same wolf. Look at the position of the legs in both pictures.

No, they aren't the same but they are from the same line.

Manchu wrote:@Chongara: I received a pack of these last week.

Yeah, those were the other option I was seriously considering. They defiantly look higher quality and more detailed than the mythicast ones. The bionics are also much better. However, I didn't like the horse style Bit & Bridle and wanted something that rode a bit closer to the ground.

Melissia wrote:The Space Wolves are the most loyal of all chapters aside from the Grey Knights themselves. Despite their misgivings, the Ecclesiarchy would have a hard time supporting a protracted war against the Wolves.

I think Codex Choas Space Marines specifically mention a whole group of Space Wolves betraying their brethren. I thought it was a terrible piece of fluff in a codex with a lot of terrible fluff but there it is.

"The Wolf of Fenris" has generated a lot of hate. Because it makes no sense. It doesn't even attempt to make sense, really. I prefer to think of it as being told from the Red Corsair's "poin of view" (heretical lies).

Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

It's too bad you've decided to not read Brothers of the Snake. The most menacing depeiction of Orks I've ever seen is in that. Waves upon waves of orks - and not one speck of green.

The Orks were pretty scary in 15 Hours, IIRC.

The only "amusing" thing they did was make the Gretchin poke their heads up to see if there were Snipers about...

Seaward wrote:

asimo77 wrote:
I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

Probably not in the way you imagine it to be. They're not doing keg stands and inviting the local Sororitas over to the dorms. They've got a strong Northern European/13th Warrior feel to them. Drinking's about ritual and tradition as much as it is tying one on. It's celebration of victory, mourning of loss, etc.

There was a thread in the Background forum recently that, in addition to getting extremely heated, discussed whether or not Space Wolves are as intelligent as other Space Marines. They do things a little differently, and they make some dumb calls about certain minor things like not wearing helmets or whatever, but overall, they wouldn't have won a lot of their battles if they were idiot frat boys instead of highly intelligent tacticians.


Though I will say that, honestly, GW missed the boat, in my opinion, by narrowing Space Wolves down to just a Nordic, rather than a pan-European "barbarian", theme. Just due to my own personal preferences, I'd be on Space Wolves like white on rice if there were room for Germanic Fenrisians rather than all of them being members of the male chapter of the Swedish bikini team.

If done right. A lot of the time they're just portryed as druken morons. In "Battle of the Abyss" the SW captain is just a druken idiot.

I never thought space wolves to be dumb, they just have short attention spans sometimes.

Melissia wrote:

For me Space Marines still qualify as humans

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

At all.

Space Marines aren't human anymore. They're living weapons. They don't participate in human society in any way, shape, or form, save to kill humanity's enemies. They aren't human biologically speaking, arguably they aren't human genetically speaking, and even psychologically speaking they're alien to us.

I would go so far as to say Marines are Homo Sapiens Astartes, while humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

I suppose it really depends on how you define 'human'. In 40k there are lots of strange deviations from the basic human. Psykers, Cyborgs, Ratlings, Ogrynes, squats, astrates...

I wouldn't say that someone stops being human because they have bionic leg, or bionic eye, or because they are genetically different, like in the case of ratlings or Psykers. The least human from my perspective are the servitors. Even though they might be genetically closer to the 100% human, and they might have far less bionics than a Tyranid Wars vet. What separates them is not that their body has been replaced, it is that their mind has been replaced; completely robbing them of their humanity.

Astrates were born and lived as humans, many were brave heroes before they were ever marines. They have physical enhancements, most are biological instead of bionical, but I think in their minds they are still very much human, and uphold human ideals. Some times better than regular humans.

Also, the Imperial Guard is FAR more heroic than the Astartes in my eyes. Why? Simple. The most basic definition of bravery... Bravery is a very important part of being a "hero". Overcoming challenges is another-- and killing a Carnifex is a far greater challenge for Guardsmen than it is for Astartes.

For me a hero is really someone who achieves great things... I don't prescribe much to this idea that the more pathetic someone is... The less they have to do to be a hero. Hero gets thrown about a lot now by the media, someone calls for an ambulance "he's a hero", pulls a cat out a pond "hero"...

I don't see the point in giving guardsmen the special-needs award. Just because one time they didn't wet their pants and run away, suddenly they are heroes... While GK and SM are off doing the Emperor's work killing MCs and Greater Daemons, yet they are not heroes because they have trained to deal with their fear?

This reeks of discrimination

Wiglaf wrote:I think Ork "accent" is supposed to be northern (rural) Scottish or English ghetto. I met once in London a guy from some isolated village of Scotland and I swear to god i couldn´t understand half of what he was saying ( as some of the english natives I was partying with, apparently).

It's Cockney, the official accent of soccer hooligans.

SmackCakes wrote:
I don't see the point in giving guardsmen the special-needs award. Just because one time they didn't wet their pants and run away, suddenly they are heroes... While GK and SM are off doing the Emperor's work killing MCs and Greater Daemons, yet they are not heroes because they have trained to deal with their fear?

This reeks of discrimination

I sort of understand the point that's being made: Space Marines are genetically enhanced, given all sorts of advanced tools, training, etc., and taught how to master their fear and win at all costs. Guardsmen aren't. So Space Marines taking down a daemon or something is, more or less, thought to be par for the course for them. Guardsmen doing it is pretty incredible. That's all in fluff terms, of course; the nature of the actual tabletop experience is balanced so that anybody can win against anybody.

On the other hand, in fluff terms, that's not the usual Guard vs. something big and scary experience. I specifically recall that, when Gaunt's little crew of super badasses fought Chaos Marines on whatever planet they were doing that infiltration mission on, Gaunt thought about how entire regiments of Imperial Guard would break and flee at the sight of just a handful of Chaos Marines, because fighting CSMs was the Astartes' job, not the Guard's, and they weren't up to it.

Manchu wrote:I think SM have certainly "lost" or "transcended" some of their humanity, depending on your viewpoint. For "theological" purposes, however, they are still very much human. Remember that the inhumanity of Space Marines compared to normal humans is nowhere near so yawning a chasm as the inhumanity of daemons and xenos compared to any humans, including Space Marines. Let's not confuse "humanity" with being a member of the human species here.

Yes, exactly. It depends on the chapter too. There's a lot of humanity in the Salamanders and many other less famours chapters. Grey Knights not so much.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:I think Ork "accent" is supposed to be northern (rural) Scottish or English ghetto. I met once in London a guy from some isolated village of Scotland and I swear to god i couldn´t understand half of what he was saying ( as some of the english natives I was partying with, apparently).

It's Cockney, the official accent of soccer hooligans.

Oddly enough, it works very well for any accent perceived to be "extreme." For example, it's hilarious imagining Orks speaking in an American Deep South or Bronx accent.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Space Wolves are the most loyal of all chapters aside from the Grey Knights themselves. Despite their misgivings, the Ecclesiarchy would have a hard time supporting a protracted war against the Wolves.

I think Codex Choas Space Marines specifically mention a whole group of Space Wolves betraying their brethren. I thought it was a terrible piece of fluff in a codex with a lot of terrible fluff but there it is.

iirc, it's in Codex: Space Wolves as well. There's also mention in the Space Wolves codex about a group of raiders running around that appear to be former Space Wolves, but no one's quite sure if that's true or when exactly they might have turned traitor.


As far as the heroes debate is concerned, I remember something written in the now old rulebook for Mekton Zeta that fits with this debate. To paraphrase it and adapt it for the 40K setting, a guardsman that takes on and defeats a group of ork boyz is a hero. He's done something spectacular and persevered despite severe odds. A titan crew that takes out that same group of orks isn't. Instead, the members of the titan crew are - in essence - bullies. Sure, they're well-meaning bullies. And I'd be grateful for what they'd done if I were on the same battlefield as them because orks should be killed just on general principle. But here you're basically looking at the strong "picking on" the weak (even if it's for the best of causes). Being a hero requires an actual challenge to overcome (which, as one poster noted, does not mean calling an ambulance - unless the trip to the phone was unusually dangerous).

Manchu wrote:"The Wolf of Fenris" has generated a lot of hate. Because it makes no sense. It doesn't even attempt to make sense, really. I prefer to think of it as being told from the Red Corsair's "poin of view" (heretical lies).

That codex really messed up the 40K narrative IMO. Before that book I would say post heresy there had been another 1000-5000 traitor marines. Then that book made it seem like Marines were going traitor all the time. Perhaps as many as 30,000 traitors post heresy. I don't know, I guess going from 99.9% loyalty to 99% or whatever isn't the end of the world.

For the hero debate, one needs look no further than the classic LotR tale. Aragorn or Gandalf are certainly more "heroic", but it is Sam and Frodo who are the real heroes.

Necroman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:I think Ork "accent" is supposed to be northern (rural) Scottish or English ghetto. I met once in London a guy from some isolated village of Scotland and I swear to god i couldn´t understand half of what he was saying ( as some of the english natives I was partying with, apparently).

It's Cockney, the official accent of soccer hooligans.

Oddly enough, it works very well for any accent perceived to be "extreme." For example, it's hilarious imagining Orks speaking in an American Deep South or Bronx accent.

Hmmm, gonna have to try that... Cajun Orks? yup. Jersey Shore Orks? definitely.

I can totally imagine an eight-foot-tall muscle-bound brutish fungus man telling me I have a purty mouth.

A hero is someone who achieves greatness at great risk. I understand that Space Marines are more capable fighters than Guardsmen but they are expected to struggle against proportionately greater odds. And again: Space Marines are not born Space Marines. By the time a human has become a Space Marine Scout he has undergone and overcome greater challenges than most Guardsmen can even dream of. A Space Marine Scout is already a greater hero than 99.999% of all Guardsmen. By the time he has a long service stud in his forehead his feats would be near-mythical by the standards of an average Guardsman.

And yet,they're still not human to me. They're just a bunch of roided up, genetically modified, chemically enhanced biological weapons. So Marines being heroic is nigh-on impossible compared to a normal human. That's the last I'm gonna say on the subject...

Ok, but you haven't really addressed the struggle to become a Space Marine in that argument.

No, because I don't care.

The less I talk about Space Marine fluff, the better mood I will be in and the more I will actually give a gak.

The core concept is really, extremely, ludicrously uninteresting to me. Reading it makes me question my desire to actually play 40k, as the core concepts behind Space Marines in genearl are some of hte most boring, overdone, uninspired things I have ever seen in 40k and science fiction in general. So I ignore it in favor of other, less dull concepts, such as the "Space Vikings in Space" concept of the puppies, or the "tragically doomed heroes" concept of the blood angels, or the "secret daemon hunters driven by duty" concept of Grey Knights. Hell even Ultramarines are more interesting than just "Space Marines". Heck I even like Fulgrim to an extent, poor schmuck that he is caught in a daemon prince's body and trying to fight it.

edit: This also effects my rankings, I should note. By ignoring the gakky gak-gak mcgakkerton of a gakstorm that is the core SM fluff, I can instead focus on what doesn't suck. The codex itself, from a competitive and design standpoint, is one of the best, if not the best, ever produced by GW. Its fluff prevents it from going any higher than the next four despite this, but because of the quality of the codex it deserves to be higher than I would have otherwise put it. Because it's a damned good book, fluff notwithstanding.

You seem to be pretty taken with the "up against impossible odds" theme, too, so I don't really get your attitude toward SM. Even if you don't think SM are in danger when overwhelmingly outnumbered (which they nearly always are) or facing opponents that are even more dangerous than them (this happens all the time, too), you still have the struggle of a regular human trying to prove himself worthy to become one of them. And that journey is much, much more difficult than the sock-folding, bed-making, lasgun-twirling life of a Guardsman. And in a fight, nine times out of ten, it's the enemies of the IG who are up against impossible odds. Now I'll give you that the lone Guardsman who stood against Horus was a saint. But Sanguinius is a much more significant saint.

((double post glitch))

I think this sums it up pretty well:

Melissia wrote:No, because I don't care.

I don't care. I don't like Space Marines as a concept, they bore me. "Space Wolves" are interesting. "Blood Angels" are interesting. "Salamanders" are interesting. Hell, even "Ultramarines" have their good side every now and then. And I actually liked "pre-heresy Death Guard" too from the limited descriptions we were given. However, "Space Marines" are dull, uninteresting, uninspired, and completely unlikable. That's just how it is to me.

Melissia wrote:I think this sums it up pretty well:

Melissia wrote:No, because I don't care.

Yeah, that sums it up all too well.

Read the edited version


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It's not like I can perfectly explain how I feel about everything. I'm just human. But Space Marines, truly and honestly, bore me as a concept. It's when one gets beyond "Space Marine" to something far more interesting and less overdone that they actually begin to interest me.

...but you like the most boring marines of all GKs?

*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

Edit: ninja'd
Never mind

So the things that make the Chapters unique are interesting to you but you find the concept of power-armored, biologically-enhanced, super-warrior-monks a little too OTT? I can understand that as far as I can articulate it and no farther. For me, the particular capacity of the Salamanders for melancholy and compassion, the Space Wolves for fidelity and humilty, the Ultramarines for nobility and inflexible justice, etc etc etc, are all bound up with their idenity as set apart from humanity. For example: A compassionate Guardsman is not interesting; a compassionate Space Marine is interesting.

Also, to me they aren't the most boring Marines. That tends to be Ultramarines second company for me. Sicaruis' company or however his name is spelled this year (I can't really quite keep up with it, they keep changing it around).

Melissia wrote:*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

It's because you think they look cool! just admit it.

Manchu wrote:For example: A compassionate Guardsman is not interesting; a compassionate Space Marine is interesting.

Again, I disagree. They're BOTH interesting.

A compassionate Guardsman fighting for his nation out of a love for it, rather than out of fear and intimidation? Fighting for the people of the Imperium? Or better yet, an officer doing so, despite struggling against the bureaucracy of the munitorum because of his ideals? That IS an interesting Guardsman.

so far I pretty much agree with the order so far (except for SoB, which should have been ranked directly above demon hunters, but we all knew the bias coming into this).

I think I'll be really sad if eldar isn't next, though.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

It's because you think they look cool! just admit it.

It's quite possible. It's part of why I like Steel Legion over Cadia, for instance.

Melissia wrote:But Space Marines, truly and honestly, bore me as a concept.

Yeah, I understand. I can't get into almost everything about Fantasy and it's difficult for me to express why. But I do find others' excitement about it infectious.

The beauty of these posts is the petulant refusal by some to continue the discussion when their arguments are blown out of the water.

I gave myself a hand-shaped bruise I facepalmed so hard.

Space Marines are the Mary Sues of the 40K universe.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

It's because you think they look cool! just admit it.

It's quite possible. It's part of why I like Steel Legion over Cadia, for instance.

Grey Knights are the coolest looking marines. Steel Legion are pretty cool but Death Korps is super-cool!

True, Death Korps are pretty cool.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:But Space Marines, truly and honestly, bore me as a concept.

Yeah, I understand. I can't get into almost everything about Fantasy and it's difficult for me to express why. But I do find others' excitement about it infectious.

for me its magic. Magic is lame. Obstacle in your plot? Just magic it!

Mn, I kinda like magic. Mind you, I almost always played a neutral good drow wizard when I played DnD, so that's probably something to do with it (in hind sight she was probably closer to true neutral).

Melissia wrote:A compassionate Guardsman fighting for his nation out of a love for it, rather than out of fear and intimidation? Fighting for the people of the Imperium? Or better yet, an officer doing so, despite struggling against the bureaucracy of the munitorum because of his ideals? That IS an interesting Guardsman.

I can see your point, although I do not share your view. The colonel in Cadian Blood, for example, was one of the most boring characters I've ever read about. But then again, so was the protaginist of the Salamanders book. I guess BL isn't a good basis for these things. In principle, however, I think the compassion of a super human--who no longer shares many of the travails of humanity--is more interesting that that of a Guardsman or any other regular human who has no reason not to be compassionate.


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Kilkrazy wrote:Space Marines are the Mary Sues of the 40K universe.

Sure, but the scifi and fantasy genres are built on the concept of Mary Sue.

Kilkrazy wrote:Space Marines are the Mary Sues of the 40K universe.

Space Marines don't have penises. There I said it. A Mary Sue is supposed to be someone living out their fantasy through their character vicariously. If you think Marines are Sues then your fantasy is to have only 15 minutes of free time a day and you don't even have a penis for that break.

That may float some guys boat but not for me.

What matters to me, for such characters, IS that they have no reason to be compassionate... they're compassionate simply because it's the right thing to do, not because they have something to gain from it. That's not to say they won't do what we would call horrible things, but sometimes you really do have to kill innocents in order to ensure that corruption does not spread. 40k is not a nice place. Corruption doesn't care, nor does mutation, nor do the infections of xenos.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't tear at your conscience. But it had to be done. And you have to steel your resolve with that fact, and make sure that you aren't the one that turns to evil next.

Melissia wrote:Mn, I kinda like magic. Mind you, I almost always played a neutral good drow wizard when I played DnD, so that's probably something to do with it (in hind sight she was probably closer to true neutral).

In a game there are rules but in fiction there isn't. Just magic it.

Then that's what I call bad fiction rather than just the cause of magic. Good fiction has rules to its magic.

Melissia wrote:I almost always played a . . . drow . . . when I played DnD.

I knew there was something I liked about you.

Melissia wrote:I almost always played a neutral good . . . wizard when I played DnD.

And something I didn't.

inb4 "lol drizzt fangirl" comments.

SaintHazard wrote:inb4 "lol drizzt fangirl" comments.

Good, because drizzt sucked.

I didn't even know about the dumb bastard whenever I created the character... I actually created her based off of a certain Baldur's Gate character...

Who doesn't like Drizzt?

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:inb4 "lol drizzt fangirl" comments.

Good, because drizzt sucked.

I didn't even know about the dumb bastard whenever I created the character... I actually created her based off of a certain Baldur's Gate character...

...if you're talking about Viconia, she was far from Neutral Good.

And for the record, I love Drizzt. I love R.A. Salvatore's books in general. I don't like the good-aligned-drow-frenzy that Salvatore managed to spark.

There's ONE good-aligned drow. ONE. And that's exceptional.

You know Elestriaee (or however you spell that stupid name) didn't even exist in Forgotten Realms canon before the "good-aligned drow" frenzy? They invented a goddess so that people could play more good-aligned drow.

Oh for the love of-

GET ON WITH IT!

SaintHazard wrote:
You know Elestriaee (or however you spell that stupid name) didn't even exist in Forgotten Realms canon before the "good-aligned drow" frenzy? They invented a goddess so that people could play more good-aligned drow.

Oh well. Drow are mega super-lame anyway.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Oh for the love of-

GET ON WITH IT!

what he said.

Chongara wrote:Oh well. Drow are mega super-lame anyway.

Nah, they're cool if used right.

Unfortunately, their sheer popularity (largely due to a certain dual-weilding twit) pretty much prohibits that. These days it seems as if you can't take two steps without tripping over another drow.

Okay, further discussion of Drow can be carried on via PM, in the OT sub-forum, or in the Large Scale &etc sub forum. Thanks!

sigh, another thread ruined by DnD. Damn you DnD!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

It's because you think they look cool! just admit it.

Looking cool is nothing to laugh at. Looking cool is sometimes much more important than actually being cool. A small hand full of people will actually read your homebrew fluff and care enough to make an opinion. 100s of people will look at a pic of your marine pose/paintjob and make opinions.

Jayden63 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:*shrug* I never claimed to not have peculiar tastes. I like Grey Knights, whereas I don't like Space Marines. There's no real logical explanation that I can give, save that of simple appeal-- Grey Knights appeal to me while Space Marines in general don't, and why I don't know how to express.

It's because you think they look cool! just admit it.

Looking cool is nothing to laugh at. Looking cool is sometimes much more important than actually being cool. A small hand full of people will actually read your homebrew fluff and care enough to make an opinion. 100s of people will look at a pic of your marine pose/paintjob and make opinions.

I didn't say it wasn't important. Inthe miniture hobby its either realism (for historical minitures) or for fictional stuff: Looking Cool! Looking cool is actually the most important thing!
...I guess Wargaming models = high school.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:fangirlish

Why yes, I am an Ork fangirl, thank you for noticing ^.^

I had to announce this. It has taken me years to figure out if Melissia is a guy or a girl. Because the last person I saw here with a sisters icon was Manchu. Not that its a bad thing, but I like to know whos behind the posts. Now back to the regularly scheduled comment.

Marines made it to the top 5. Thats a big surprise. Cant wait to see what the next one is. My bets are Eldar, Guard, Sisters then Orks.

And now I am planning what my list post will look like. It looks like fun making these.
But I need to think of something to make the list about... and a reason to celebrate said list...

I think....Eldar, Sisters, Orks then IG....I think

Given the love letters she's been writing to the IG of late, I'd be rather surprised if they weren't number one.

It cannot not be the IG IMO. To repost my comments here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/295509.page

"In a time filled with giant genetically engineered super-warriors, alien monstrosities and extradimensional invaders conjured from your own nightmares the Imperial Guard are just men armed with rifles; armoured most heavily in the steel toes of their boots. That's why they're my favorite, they're the little guys in the big, bad galaxy."

Space Marines are mortal heroes long before they become Space Marines, but that's a discussion for another time I think.

Orks have gotten considerably more Melissa love ITT than IG--up to an including the statement that the greenskins already rule the galaxy (pfft). Of course, it could be a deliberate feint to distract from IG's ultimate victory.

Im really with you on the Space Marine subject. Guardsmen are the muscle, the marching, the working, the many of the imperium. They work their asses off just for their work to be credited to some genetically engineered super human who gave a good speech.

Poice wrote:Im really with you on the Space Marine subject. Guardsmen are the muscle, the marching, the working, the many of the imperium. They work their asses off just for their work to be credited to some genetically engineered super human who gave a good speech.

"Give everything. Your home, your family, even your life, and you might just buy enough time for the Astartes to take all the credit."

You know what the most redundant statement in WH40k is?: Badass guardsman.

The IG are probably the hardest motherf--kers to ever grace the galaxy.

asimo77 wrote:You know what the most redundant statement in WH40k is?: Badass guardsman.

The IG are probably the hardest motherf--kers to ever grace the galaxy.

Dat wod be da orkz humie

asimo77 wrote:You know what the most redundant statement in WH40k is?: Badass guardsman.

The IG are probably the hardest motherf--kers to ever grace the galaxy.

If there's a commissar to shoot them when they try to run away, yeah.

Monster Rain wrote:

asimo77 wrote:You know what the most redundant statement in WH40k is?: Badass guardsman.

The IG are probably the hardest motherf--kers to ever grace the galaxy.

If there's a commissar to shoot them when they try to run away, yeah.

No no no. Those commisars are inneffective. We need more of these:

In the grim dark future of the 41st millenium there is only love

I actually laughed at the hat more than anything else. Catface smiley instead of a skull, classic.

The commanders pipe would get in the way. It would sound lispy.

Looks like the guardsman on the right is about to get a hug himself.

I heartily condone this new method of morale raising.

Hate to rain on your parade, but saying that the concepts of space marines are overdone is somewhat odd, as I cannot name a single videogame character that came before them.


More colourful words were originally typed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and also this is a great thread

I agree with the hate on space wolves. IHATETHEM.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I might wholeheartedly disagree with what you might think about the Wolves, but this is the internet and it'd be remiss of me to try and convert you.

Even so, I don't agree with you.

Manchu wrote:Orks have gotten considerably more Melissa love ITT than IG--up to an including the statement that the greenskins already rule the galaxy (pfft). Of course, it could be a deliberate feint to distract from IG's ultimate victory.

pffft indeed. Orks rule the galaxy at creating and destroying their own empires daily. They do make good little emoticons though

I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any streach of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any streach of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

LordWaffles wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any streach of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

The above post is not in any way a hilarious overreaction to a highly insignificant topic.

LordWaffles wrote:Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

Wow.

Someone needs to cool his balls and realize that he's getting worked up over a subjective opinion of a fictional army of plastic soldier men.

So Melissia...

any chance the Dark Eldar or Necrons will move up your list with the new release/future release of new codices?

Shenra wrote:So Melissia...

any chance the Dark Eldar or Necrons will move up your list with the new release/future release of new codices?

I can't remember off the top of my head (it's probably stated somewhere in the DE review I'm too lazy to go read again) but I'm pretty sure she mentioned that DE only made it as high on the list as they did due to having a brand new codex.

I suppose it's safe to say the same may occur when Necrons get an update.

Dark Eldar already did. They were originally about four ranks lower.

Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the latter.

Someone need to calm down, I´m not looking at you LordWaffles (or maybe I do).

Wiglaf wrote:Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the former.

Er... You do realize that not all flaws are caused by disease/death, right?

The assumption that marines aren't flawed is ridiculous. Without the flaws of space marines, there would have been no Horus Heresy.

Without flawed Space Marines, your favorite army would be shy one C'tan.

I'm lovin this thread.
Its like Steve Colbert writing a white dwarf.

Except Stephen Colbert is being ironic.

Necroman wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the former.

Er... You do realize that not all flaws are caused by disease/death, right?

The assumption that marines aren't flawed is ridiculous. Without the flaws of space marines, there would have been no Horus Heresy.

I should have used the word weaknesses -physical wise- instead of flaws. My bad.

Wiglaf wrote:

Necroman wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the former.

Er... You do realize that not all flaws are caused by disease/death, right?

The assumption that marines aren't flawed is ridiculous. Without the flaws of space marines, there would have been no Horus Heresy.

I should have used the word weaknesses -physical wise- instead of flaws. My bad.

Even so, I think it's a stretch to say that humanity defines itself merely by its strengths and weaknesses.

Very much enjoying the rankings although I disagree with them a lot of the arguments you make are valid. Keep it up

LordWaffles wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any streach of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

Chill out, dude, it's only a forum. Here, have a cup of tea.
Now, just remember that opinions are opinions and, if I may paraphrase Voltaire's famous maxim with regards to Melissia's posts; "Madam, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to spout gak on the internet."

Seaward wrote:
Even so, I think it's a stretch to say that humanity defines itself merely by its strengths and weaknesses.

Didn´t say merely... but they´re just an essential part of the mix, if you remove either of those there´s no humanity to speak of.

To the surprise of some people I'm sure, the next one is:

4: WITCH HUNTERS


There's a lot I like about the army, from a fluff standpoint. Sisters, especially. The best of the best that humanity can offer, trained to-- and sometimes past-- the human limits, resistant to psychic power through sheer willpower and belief, loyal to a fault and brave to a tee. Though still most assuredly human, they yet at the same time surpass the normal human capabilities, their skill and agility in their power armor eventually raising to match the Astartes... or even exceed it in the most talented cases, due to their special training and utmost dedication. The issues facing Sisters aren't a matter of whether or not they might betray the Imperium (which doesn't happen outside of psychic mind control that can effect even Space Marines with its power), but rather whether or not they succeed or fail in their attempts to catch heresy and betrayal. The traitors attempt to use Sisters for their own benefits, and Sisters must always be vigilant to make sure that this does not succeed... all the while they must also protect the innocent and defend the faithful. In such a galaxy as 40k, these duties constantly conflict, creating a tension in the Sisters' duties that prevent them from being mary sue while still keeping them relatively "good" (as much as anything in 40k can be "good").

The army list, that is the parts that don't suck, has a unique playstyle-- short-ranged shooty in a way that no other army manages to encapsulate. Bolter shock and flamers, are the bread and butter, steak and potatoes, and some other forms of common foodstuffs for the Sisters army-- to the extreme that even armies which have access to equivalents (Space Marines, Orks to an extent, Necrons) just don't compare. In close combat, Sisters rely upon their numbers and skill rather than their raw strength or toughness, as shown by the numbers of Battle Sister Squads, the unparalleled talent Seraphim have in hit and run tactics, or the unmatched skill of Celestians (Holy Hatred). Sadly, this list is very limited.

The HQ choice is good... but really limiting. She's statted out for ranged combat, but she can only really be equipped for close combat. Celestians are okay out of the Elites choice, but they're very limited by the fact that they have no free frags, and no BP+CCW or some other equipment to make them better in close combat (like Sarissas or some such), the other choice I won't even bother with. Battle Sisters are the core of the army, as despite being overcosted they're still very useful, clinging to Acts of Faith and mechanization in order to ensure the army stands a chance. The FA choices are useful, if overcosted, with Seraphim definitely on top. Similarly with the HS choices, the Exorcist comes on top by a long shot. Their transports are overcosted, with the Immolator basically just being an overpriced razorback (BA razorbacks are better).

The Inquisitor Lord is interesting from a game perspective, but from a fluff perspective I find it entirely droll as I don't see combat as an Inquisitor's job. Same with the Elite Inquisitor. Most of the time people just take those because they want the hood, and for no other reason. Stormtroopers aren't as good as Sisters, and never were, but they have their uses (mostly plasma spam with lots of small units) if you really, really have to have them in your list. Assassins I never really bother with... they have a few tricks, but save for one particular one they don't usually really help win battles compared to their cost (including the required Inquisitor).

The priest, if he actually started out with any equipment, would be better than the one the IG has, but s/he doesn't. Not even an armor save. But s/he does have the option to have power armor and other equipment that can make him/her worth taking, and taking him/her unlocks Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines. The former is a bit overpriced, but actually not all that bad, rather deadly and can be hard to kill. The latter is far, far more deadly, but also far, far easier to kill despite (or perhaps because of) being a vehicle squadron, and an open topped vehicle with AV11 to boot.

The fluff also has issues. Sisters are often abused as the scratching post of the galaxy, and the overwhelming majority of their fluff revolves around them losing fights, with only a very small portion showing them as the competent, capable soldiers they are. And the models... there was a thread that was what, over twenty five pages on that subject? And it wasn't the first. Enough has been said on that-- suffice it to say I like most of the models, but I despise the corset and boob cups style chest/abdomen armor.

All in all... they're my favorite faction. But goddamn does GW need to do a better job making them more appealing to more people. It's like GW's handling of Avatars-- apparently beating one up is a rite of passage for chapter masters now. I'm hoping that the new codex will focus on the aspects of Sisters that don't suck rather than focusing on the "omg martyrs let's have them kill themselves like lemmings!" bullgakt that some of the gakkier "authors" in BL try and do.

I agree with the point on the fluff making them too easy to kill - it's got to be remembered that these warrior-nuns are wearing Power Armour not dissimilar to that worn by SMs and are also equipped with boltguns, something else that is generally only found en masse in the ranks of the Astartes. It just doesn't make sense to have them flattened so easily.

Also, I would assume the elite choice you didn't mention are the Repentia. I guess the idea of naked paper-wearing chainsaw-nuns getting a 4+ armour save somehow annoyed you too.

Also, they suck competitively too. They're only really beat out by the space pope for sheer uselessness.

Melissia wrote:
There's a lot I like about the army, from a fluff standpoint. Sisters, especially. The best of the best that humanity can offer, trained to-- and sometimes past-- the human limits, resistant to psychic power through sheer willpower and belief, loyal to a fault and brave to a tee. Though still most assuredly human, they yet at the same time surpass the normal human capabilities, their skill and agility in their power armor eventually raising to match the Astartes... or even exceed it in the most talented cases, due to their special training and utmost dedication. The issues facing Sisters aren't a matter of whether or not they might betray the Imperium (which doesn't happen outside of psychic mind control that can effect even Space Marines with its power), but rather whether or not they succeed or fail in their attempts to catch heresy and betrayal. The traitors attempt to use Sisters for their own benefits, and Sisters must always be vigilant to make sure that this does not succeed... all the while they must also protect the innocent and defend the faithful. In such a galaxy as 40k, these duties constantly conflict, creating a tension in the Sisters' duties that prevent them from being mary sue while still keeping them relatively "good" (as much as anything in 40k can be "good").

I bolded the parts that I enjoyed the most.

Melissia wrote:Also, they suck competitively too. They're only really beat out by the space pope for sheer uselessness.

And fetishy fanservice.
Let's not forget that, now.

I gotta admit, if I have a female character in my army (which, I do!!) they should look shmexy. The nuns look a little too 'butch' IMO. GW are getting better though and as we can see with the new DE look, they have improved.

Moving on though, Id love to see a new Codex and mini's for the WH. That would be super cool as I love their style.

Good thread so far, I was surprised Eldar beat Witch Hunters! Agree with most of what you said so far, hope the Guard win!

If it wasn't for the uber butch models (I don't want super sexy armor, but SoB look like men in drag), and the large number of crap units in their army, I'd definatly take them up. They have excelent fluff, I love the idea of Space Paladin/nuns, and there is just so much they could do with SoB but do not, and it really sucks.

A shame we won't be seeing a new codex for a good sum of time most likely. The way GW treats them, I could see them merging Daemon Hunters with the Witch Hunters for the next codex.

At the moment, the tentative schedule is like this:

Dark Eldar (duh), Grey Knights, Necrons, Sisters, Tau

So I suspect Sisters will get updated six months after Grey Knights.

Namica wrote:If it wasn't for the uber butch models (I don't want super sexy armor, but SoB look like men in drag), and the large number of crap units in their army, I'd definatly take them up. They have excelent fluff, I love the idea of Space Paladin/nuns, and there is just so much they could do with SoB but do not, and it really sucks.

A shame we won't be seeing a new codex for a good sum of time most likely. The way GW treats them, I could see them merging Daemon Hunters with the Witch Hunters for the next codex.

I think it would be cool if they did this, but added in Zenos, I would definatly play them then. I think it would also be cool if they releced one of them more focases on the Inquasition aspect, not the Grey Knight/ Sisters of Battle/ Deathwatch forces.
but thats just me..

I'd rather it be completely separate Grey Knights, Sisters, and Inquisition codices. But it looks to be Grey Knights / Inquisition and Sisters / Ecclesiarchy instead, as two separate codices.

The combined Inquisition codex is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted.

Melissia wrote:I'd rather it be completely separate Grey Knights, Sisters, and Inquisition codices. But it looks to be Grey Knights / Inquisition and Sisters / Ecclesiarchy instead, as two separate codices.

The combined Inquisition codex is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted.

I think it'll be Grey Knights/Inquisition and Sisters/Inquisition, actually, as that makes the most sense.

Nope, what makes the most sense is Sisters/Ecclesiarchy, actually making it a different faction as well as calling back fluff from the past. Just adding in a bunch of copy/pasted units from another codex does not make it endearing.

Melissia wrote:Nope, what makes the most sense is Sisters/Ecclesiarchy, actually making it a different faction as well as calling back fluff from the past. Just adding in a bunch of copy/pasted units from another codex does not make it endearing.

I think it does, and all of this is nothing but subjective opinion. What other forces does the Ecclesiarchy have aside from Sisters? Frateris Militia? They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Seaward wrote:They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Ecclesiarchy would be: Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Frateris Militia, Crusaders, Priests, and possibly others. Frateris Militia could work quite well as crazed cheap meat shields. Mob weapons (counting as LP+CCW), furious charge while led by a priest, eviscerator and exterminator upgrades, etc.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Ecclesiarchy would be: Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Frateris Militia, Crusaders, Priests.

Aren't Penitent Engines already included in the WH list? My codex is in storage somewhere.

I dunno. I think the rest, with the exception of Arco-Flagellants, would end up being pretty impractical from a gaming standpoint. While I actually like the idea of a vast, ill-trained mob of fanatics, it'd be a pain to actually get on the table and work with. Plus, aren't Zealots or something already in the codex?

Arco-Flagellants, Priests, and Penitent Engines are already in WH. They're unlocked by taking a Priest, IE, they're Ecclesiarchal, not Inquisitorial.

The inquisition in C:WH is little more than a half-assed, careles, and lazy copy/paste from DH, with a few minor changes that only served to make them WORSE than in DH. The primary substance of the codex is, and has always been, Sisters and Ecclesiarchy. Removing the Inquisition and letting them shine in the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex and then bringing back the old fluff of Sisters would be much more appropriate. Giving them their own codex would be moreso, but that is unlikely at this point.

Zealots are a White Dwarf unit, which basically function as Repentia that don't quite suck as much as Repentia (but still suck). Frateris Militia are a second edition unit. Effectively, I'm thinking something like conscript stats, but much better morale (perhaps even fearless?) and furious charge along with upgrades. Other possibilities are giving them stubbers (R18", S3 AP-, Assault 2?) with purchasable heavy stubbers and other similar low-tech, cheap weaponry.

Melissia wrote:Arco-Flagellants, Priests, and Penitent Engines are already in WH. They're unlocked by taking a Priest, IE, they're Ecclesiarchal, not Inquisitorial.

The inquisition in C:WH is little more than a half-assed, careles, and lazy copy/paste from DH, with a few minor changes that only served to make them WORSE than in DH. The primary substance of the codex is, and has always been, Sisters and Ecclesiarchy. Removing the Inquisition and letting them shine in the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex and then bringing back the old fluff of Sisters would be much more appropriate. Giving them their own codex would be moreso, but that is unlikely at this point.

Zealots are a White Dwarf unit, which basically function as Repentia that don't quite suck as much as Repentia (but still suck). Frateris Militia are a second edition unit. Effectively, I'm thinking something like conscript stats, but much better morale (perhaps even fearless?) and furious charge along with upgrades. Other possibilities are giving them stubbers (R18", S3 AP-, Assault 2?) with purchasable heavy stubbers and other similar low-tech, cheap weaponry.

That would be cool. I have some guard models that could go either way on what codex they will use. (DH/WH/IG) But Sisters got fourth... Wow, now my bets are on Eldar, IG, and orks. (If eldar win, I also call that )

I think what I want to see is all of the inq ordos in one place, but not necessarily in their own codex. So if it boils down to Codex: Ecclesiarchy/SOB and Codex: GK/Inq (all ordos) that's fine with me.

If they decided to split it into, three which doesn't seem to be the case, that would be ok too as far as I'm concerned.

I just like the idea of secret space agents going around the galaxy, and would rather not have to get like 3 dexes just so I could have alien, witch, and daemon hunter varieties.

Incidentally, I believe the order of the remaining few to be Edlar, Orks, IG.
Let's see if I'm right. I hope so.

I think that all the inquisition codices should be merged into one. They're all the same organization. Different branches, but the same organization. I'm also of the opinion that all the space marine codices should be merged as well, we don't need half the codices to be SM. Just give each of the "special" chapters it's own section, it doesn't need it's own codex. All that does is take the time they could be using to update the other codices.

If they did that, the codex for SM would be wider than I am tall.
There's a reason that the codexes are split the way they are, and though I can understand your point, I think that some of the chapters (or branches of the inquisition) are so varied that it would be impossible to mash them into one book without losing a lot of their character.

asimo77 wrote:I think what I want to see is all of the inq ordos in one place, but not necessarily in their own codex. So if it boils down to Codex: Ecclesiarchy/SOB and Codex: GK/Inq (all ordos) that's fine with me.

If they decided to split it into, three which doesn't seem to be the case, that would be ok too as far as I'm concerned.

I just like the idea of secret space agents going around the galaxy, and would rather not have to get like 3 dexes just so I could have alien, witch, and daemon hunter varieties.

The only problem I have with the Inquisition in general is that I don't see fighting the sort of generalist battles that occur on the tabletop as their "thing." Grey Knights exist to fight daemons, not to go out and pound on Orks or Tau; the Deathwatch are specifically xenos hunters, so they'd work for a lot of match-ups, but they ain't got a codex; and while the SoBs aren't officially the Ordo Hereticus' militant arm, they are unofficially just that, in addition to being the brutal enforcer for the Ecclesiarchy. There's fluff examples of them turning up in all sorts of odd fights, so there's at least precedent for them being everywhere as Astartes-light.

My problem with THEM, though, is the whole reason for their existence; the decree that took away the Ecclesiarchy's army stated that no men under arms would be allowed to them, so they use women instead. That the rest of the Imperium's reaction to the Ecclesiarchy avoiding the spirit of the law was one of, "Oh, you rascals, you got us!" is just one of those eye-rollingly bad pieces of fluff for me.

So really, it's all just minor fluff annoyances for me with the "Inquisitorial" armies, but it's why I've never really been interested in them - save for when I first read Eisenhorn and immediately went out and bought both the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters codices.

I just love the inq too much, I want to see them on table top :(

As far as inq not having armies or fighting generalist battles, I was thinking that their neat thing would be their mix of troops.

They'll get some GEQ's (with BS4) through IST, some MEQ's through Deathwatch, of course the own uniquness of inquisitors themselves and assassins, and probably more units that GW can think of.

I'm all for splitting the SOB/Ecclesiarchy from Inq and even GK but that's just a crazy pipe dream of mine.

Forgot to add: the different ordos could be represented through something akin to Chaos marks or IG stormtroopers special missions rules, and of course varied wargear among inquisitors.

Final 3? I'm giddy with anticipation!

Cantus wrote:Final 3? I'm giddy with anticipation!

I'm gonna guess it's Eldar, IG, and Orks

Eldar because she doesn't play them so I would think she favors ORks and IG over them

IG because they are pretty good but no where near as awesome as

Orks because they are awesome, tons of conversion opportunities and you can make soooo many different lists.

Melissia wrote:The HQ choice is good... but really limiting. She's statted out for ranged combat, but she can only really be equipped for close combat.

It might just be me, but I think it would be great if a Canoness could take a Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer (or even a Psycannon or Incinerator).

The Inquisitor Lord is interesting from a game perspective, but from a fluff perspective I find it entirely droll as I don't see combat as an Inquisitor's job. Same with the Elite Inquisitor. Most of the time people just take those because they want the hood, and for no other reason.

I do like that the Inquisitors are well suited to representing other characters, like a Judge and their retinue of Arbites in riot gear, or a "pet" pariah and their handlers.

The fiction that focuses on the Sisters' Pyrrhic victories wouldn't bother me, if there were more pieces that didn't talk in general terms. Something like the story of Saint Alicia and her retinue, rather than just a general overview of the Age of Apostasy.

Seaward wrote:My problem with THEM, though, is the whole reason for their existence; the decree that took away the Ecclesiarchy's army stated that no men under arms would be allowed to them, so they use women instead. That the rest of the Imperium's reaction to the Ecclesiarchy avoiding the spirit of the law was one of, "Oh, you rascals, you got us!" is just one of those eye-rollingly bad pieces of fluff for me.

Remember that it was Sebastian Thor, a skilled orator who played a significant role in Vandire's fall, that was arguing for the organisation's continued existence. I'm more inclined to believe that it's as if someone had successfully convinced the Allies that the Treaty of Versailles went too far, and so they chose to enforce the letter rather than the spirit of the rule in order to rectify the error without admitting fault.

I wish I could say that Sisters have good fluff but they really don't. They're a good concept and are by far and away my favorite thing about 40k. I share many of Melissia's general sentiments, although we part ways significantly on the details, about their strengths and weaknesses (with the notable exception that I think the models are downright awesome). But there is very little that has been told about them. They're kind of like Dark Eldar in that way: the concept is very firmly established but when you take a closer look you find that there are huge gaps in significant areas. Some general discussion of Ecclesiarchical dogma and how the Sisters' beliefs fit into it all would be nice for a start.

Manchu wrote:I wish I could say that Sisters have good fluff but they really don't. They're a good concept and are by far and away my favorite thing about 40k. I share many of Melissia's general sentiments, although we part ways significantly on the details, about their strengths and weaknesses (with the notable exception that I think the models are downright awesome). But there is very little that has been told about them. They're kind of like Dark Eldar in that way: the concept is very firmly established but when you take a closer look you find that there are huge gaps in significant areas. Some general discussion of Ecclesiarchical dogma and how the Sisters' beliefs fit into it all would be nice for a start.

I'm of the (perhaps incorrect) opinion that there is actually very little dogma to the Imperial Cult. I view it as just another of the Imperium's countless mechanisms of control of its populace more than anything else. I don't claim to have read every bit of 40K fluff or ever BL book, but every one that I HAVE read has shown that the true, humane wisdom (or what one could loosely term as "religious wisdom") that one would think would be the province of the Ecclesiarchy comes from outsiders - even if they're Ecclesiarchy members, such as the priest in Gaunt's Ghosts, they're not exactly ones that appear to be in favor.

Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

But I must say, I do love how extreme the sisters are in their zealotry. They're admirably determined, to the point that their faith itself is a shield. Admittedly, they have very little in the way of fluff, so hopefully that can be improved in the future.

Also, the Penitent Engine is one of the most gorgeous models GW has ever made, so that's another reason to like WH.

Necroman wrote:Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

I think that some people are taking his books as a serious commentary on the 40K universe, and assuming it's all canon gospel

Gotta love Sandy Mitchell

I wish they would just create Codex: Inquisition and revamp Sister, Grey Knights, Ecclisiadfisubhs (can't spell it not going to try) in one book with lots of different potential list builds.

Mad props to Melissia for being honest about Witchhunters and not auto #1 becouse omgz fangirlness.

Forgotmytea wrote:

Necroman wrote:Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

I think that some people are taking his books as a serious commentary on the 40K universe, and assuming it's all canon gospel

Gotta love Sandy Mitchell

Obviously, being taken too seriously is a bit of a problem when the book is about a certain commissar.



Though it's a different matter when the book is one of his Dark Heresy novels. Of course, the only Sisters that have shown up in the latter are a couple of door guards. And since the muscle in those books is being provided by a Deathwatch squad, I doubt more of the Sororitas will turn up.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

LordWaffles wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any stretch of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

Chill out, dude, it's only a forum. Here, have a cup of tea.
Now, just remember that opinions are opinions and, if I may paraphrase Voltaire's famous maxim with regards to Melissia's posts; "Madam, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to spout gak on the internet."

A little confused as to where that came from, I think someone is getting a little too caught up with his plastic toys Gorskar pretty much summed up what I meant, thanks man

SoB was very supprising for 4th, I had now idea you held Eldar so highly Melissa! Its not likely, but if they win I'd be well happy. My bet is still on Orks though.

Always a pleasure, never a chore.
Personally, I'd love it if Orks came first, but I could also settle for IG. After all, IG are cool, despite their detractors; who can't find it in themselves to sympathise with ordinary men and women fighting giant alien horrors on a daily basis? Call it the underdog factor, but IG are a very worthy addition to the top three, and I'm glad they are there.

I'm more curious to see what she has to say about the Orks and Guard. I plan on purchasing the Guard's codex by the time the year is out and I won't lie in saying that if their not in the top 2 I might be a little miffed (but that's just me being biased towards people with balls of unobtanium). As for the Orks, she always mentions about taking them seriously and I'd like to see how she tackles this. Mainly for the sole reason to see how my opinion of them lines up with hers.

If I was to make a thread like this (don't worry its never going to happen ) I'd have the same top 3, but I'd put Eldar top simply because I love their fluff and how they play. I know thats won't happen here, but I competely agree with the top 3, so I'm not going to compain whatever happens.
As I see it the grimdark 40K universe is 95% Imperial Guard against the near infinte hoards of Ork (which sadly is not even close to being represented IRL), so both are more than worth of the top spot.

I share the same sentiment as Gorechild. It is Orks vs Imperial Guard and Eldar/Space Marines vs Chaos. This being sci-fi, it still has the same cliche(which is not bad at all, I love cliche) fight. Good vs Evil, Order vs Chaos. In 40k, the line is a bit blur, but the comparison is there.

I love Eldar fluff to bits. They have the potential for the richest background out of all races, not only because they're ancient(edited for courtesy of Flaming_Spider), also because they are described as very individualistic, with stirring and richly flavoured spirits, capable of great emotional extremes and experiecing everything with heightened sense, all the while maintaing outward emotional calm because they're well aware of where extremes may lead. This duality is really cool, because it actually makes a lot of sense, fluff-wise.

They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Araenion wrote: not only because they're eldest,

That statement is incorrect, I'm afraid. While the Eldar are ancient, they are not so ancient as to hold the title of eldest. That belongs to the Necrons, who had already existed for hundreds of thousands of years before the Eldar came into existence. Ancient beyond belief, the Necrons were the first second race to come into existence, appearing mere centuries after the creation of the universe. The Eldar like to claim they are the oldest race, but they were created as weapons of the Old Ones during the war with the Necrons, a war which had been going on for centuries before the Eldar.

Sorry to call you out, but I felt that your statement needed to be corrected, being the Necron fanboy that I am.

Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Well, I do know they appeared 16 Billion years before the formation of Earth, but I'm not sure when the Eldar showed up, the timeline is kind of skewed that far back.

You're right, of course, I should've put the Necrons in brackets. Be that as it may, Necrons while eldest, currently have the thinnest fluff out of all races(only in my humble opinion, not to rile the Necron fanboy in you). So there you go.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Well, I do know they appeared 16 Billion years before the formation of Earth, but I'm not sure when the Eldar showed up, the timeline is kind of skewed that far back.

I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old? Either way, you make a point there.

Man, missed another mark. Oh well. Safe to say, THIS time, Eldar are next.

I will dispense prophecy on the top 2 when the time is right.

Flaming_Spider wrote:I think that all the inquisition codices should be merged into one. They're all the same organization. Different branches, but the same organization. I'm also of the opinion that all the space marine codices should be merged as well, we don't need half the codices to be SM. Just give each of the "special" chapters it's own section, it doesn't need it's own codex. All that does is take the time they could be using to update the other codices.

Problem with that is, the Inquisition (from a codex standpoint) is NOT all one organization. The Inquisition itself consists of the Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus, and Ordo Malleus. These ARE all part of one organization. However, the Grey Knights are a chapter of Space Marines. They serve, in effect, as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, but they are not actually PART of the Ordo. The Sisters of Battle are the militant arm of the Adepta Sororitas, which is, in turn, part of the Ecclesiarchy. They serve, in effect, as the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, but again, are not actually PART of the Ordo. The only faction that's technically, by letter, part of the Inquisition is the Deathwatch, and even then it's tenuous as best - often they're considered their own chapter of Space Marines that happens to draw from every other chapter.

The Grey Knights, in my opinion, should not be lumped into a codex with the Inquisition. The Sisters absolutely should not. The Deathwatch I'm fine with, but honestly, I just want some damn options for my Deathwatch army that don't consist of simply using Codex: Space Marines.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old?

Why would that even matter?

Chongara wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old?

Why would that even matter?

Because that would make the 'Crons 6 billion years older than the universe itself. Oh wait, I see what you did there.
Yeah, that's probably it.

@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

Yay! Eldar are in the top 3!

Manchu wrote:@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

The Deathwatch doesn't, but the Grey Knights absolutely do.

Again, reading the Grey Knights novels makes this clear.

Also, nothing in the DH codex that I've seen explicitly states they're part of the Inquisition. So the lack of evidence for the "part of" conclusion and the Black Library novel evidence for the "not part of" conclusion leads me to believe they're separate, but often work as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus.

What do the Grey Knights do that isn't Ordo Malleus business?

I get that they aren't themselves inquisitors but rather a Space Marine chapter (unlike the Deathwatch). However, they are inextricably linked to Ordo Malleus (even as a part of directing the Ordo, if Lexicanum is to be believed). The Sisters, by contrast, existed as a large and powerful institution long before the existence of Ordo Hereticus.

SaintHazard wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

The Deathwatch doesn't, but the Grey Knights absolutely do.

Again, reading the Grey Knights novels makes this clear.

Also, nothing in the DH codex that I've seen explicitly states they're part of the Inquisition. So the lack of evidence for the "part of" conclusion and the Black Library novel evidence for the "not part of" conclusion leads me to believe they're separate, but often work as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus.

I may not remember this correctly, but I believe the DH codex states that Grey Knights will often refuse to aid radical inquisitors, or ones that they deem to be radical, hinting at some form of autonomy from the control of the Inquisition in that they may choose to offer their support or not.

Manchu wrote:What do the Grey Knights do that isn't Ordo Malleus business?

I'll dig some examples up tonight, it's been too long since I read the novels, I can't remember any specific examples.


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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I may not remember this correctly, but I believe the DH codex states that Grey Knights will often refuse to aid radical inquisitors, or ones that they deem to be radical, hinting at some form of autonomy from the control of the Inquisition in that they may choose to offer their support or not.

Also, this.

@Gorskar: The Inquisition is officially puritanical. Radicals are suspect of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition. This is most harshly enforced by Ordo Malleus and especially by the Grey Knights, who brook no temptations whatsoever. The fact that they refuse to aid radicals is not evidence of autonomy. From everything I have read (codex, index astartes but not novels), a Grey Knight Grand Master has roughly equivalent authority to senior Inquisitors. This doesn't mean they are members of different institutions, more like directors of different departments.

Manchu wrote:@Gorskar: The Inquisition is officially puritanical. Radicals are suspect of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition. This is most harshly enforced by Ordo Malleus and especially by the Grey Knights, who brook no temptations whatsoever. The fact that they refuse to aid radicals is not evidence of autonomy. From everything I have read (codex, index astartes but not novels), a Grey Knight Grand Master has roughly equivalent authority to senior Inquisitors. This doesn't mean they are members of different institutions, more like directors of different departments.

You're both correct and incorrect here.

You are correct in that the Grey Knights do not have Chapter Masters, and that Grand Masters are the equivalent of a senior Inquisitor in terms of authority - in fact, Grey Knight Grand Masters are members of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition.

However, you're incorrect in that their ability to refuse to aid a given Inquisitor does not indicate autonomy - quite the opposite. A given Inquisitor can and does exercise a lot of operational freedom. They're virtually not policed at all - the fact that they've graduated to being Inquisitors is usually evidence enough of their loyalty (and this is also directly from the Grey Knights novels, as well, for example in the beginning of the first novel, an Inquisitor is about the only person in the Ordo Malleus's Archives who doesn't have a gun-servitor pointing a boltgun at her head in case she goes insane from reading various arcane texts). Inquisitors are given leave to command Grey Knights detachments, but a Grand Master or even a Justicar can simply decline to aid the Inquisitor. Given that there are numerous schools of thought among the Inquisition, it's not entirely accurate to say that the Inquisition is entirely puritanical. The Ordo Malleus doesn't have to give the Grey Knights permission to decline an Inquisitor's orders.

Politico-theological realities and the letter of Imperial Law are different things. The Malleus Remit means that even Grey Knights may not refuse the Ordo aid; whether Grey Knights would consider a known radical to stand for the Ordo, however, is another matter. Also, the Grey Knights have little ability to deploy themselves because they have little capacity to investigate daemonic plots throughout the Imperium. That is the perogative of Inquisitors, who then--upon command of the masters of Ordo Mallues--unleash the Grey Knights. The only situation in which the Grey Knights would refuse the command is when they were suspicious that the command itself would violate their mandate--and in turn be contrary to the madate of Ordo Malleus, which cannot but be puritanical from the Grey Knights' point of view.

The larger issue is that Adepta Soroitas exists and operates independently from Ordo Hereticus the majority of the time. Whereas Grey Knights are only deployed except in the prosecution of Ordo Malleus business, the Sisters' involvement with Ordo Hereticus is the exception rather than the rule.

You assume the Grey Knights can only deploy in the case of a daemonic threat.

They specialize in killing daemons. It's not the end-all-be-all of what they do. They're still Space Marines.

But you wouldn't want to deploy your most valuable asset at every danger that comes by though.

Mr Nobody wrote:But you wouldn't want to deploy your most valuable asset at every danger that comes by though.

That's why the Ordo Malleus doesn't deploy them.

They deploy themselves.

For example, of the Adeptus Mechanicus were to finally go over the edge and be declared heretics, who'd be the first to be called upon to take them down? Probably the Grey Knights, from their fortress orbiting Saturn.

Melissia have you seen the videos on youtube of Phil Kelly and Jes talking about DE fluff? Wanted to see what your opinion of that was. Would it have effected your decision positively or negatively?

@Mr Nobody: Yeah, I think you're right about that one. I don't remember if GK have a "why would GK fight X" section in their book like WH but my understanding is that the lives of GK are far too important to risk on anything but grave daemonic threats. (This obviously doesn't translate well into tabeltop play but a game between Ultramarines and Crimsons Fists makes no fluff sense, either.) Anyway, it seems like the Emperor founded the Ordo Malleus and GK separately but they really need each other to fulfill their mandates: sometimes a whole IG regiment isn't enough of a retinue (Vraks) against daemonic infestation, so you need to call the mary sues of all mary sues; and the GK do not have the investiagtive focus (or possibily capablity) of the Ordo. And they're supposed to be organizationally linked, with a Grand Master of the GK serving on the central conclave of Ordo Malleus (so Lexicanum says; I don't have the dex in front of me). Sisters, on the other hand, pursue a wide range of duties for the Ecclesiarchy. But like the rest of the Imperium, the demands of the Inquisition come first. And they have a special understanding with Ordo Hereticus, whereby they sometimes serve as the Chamber Militant of that ordo. By contrast, the GK are constantly and solely in service as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Malleus.

@SaintHazard: Given the nature of the Mechanicum and its origins, I'd say any major heresy would be investigated by Ordo Hereticus and ultimately dealt with by Ordo Xenos. In any conflict where the survival of the Imperium itself was on the line, I'd assume the GK would eventually step in.

That's my entire point. Investigating rogue and heretical institutions within the Imperium is not the job of the Grey Knights, or even the Ordo Malleus. That's the Hereticus's job.

So why did the Grey Knights purge the homeworld of the Relictors? The answer: they're more than just daemon hunters. They were even working under the auspices of an Inquisitor, but nothing I could find specifically stated said Inquisitor was of the Ordo Malleus.

Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn. Certainly not the Ultramarines way over in the Ultima Segmentum.

Does that make sense?

I guess my bottom line is that the Grey Knights, while they SERVE as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, are more than just that. They're still an independent chapter of Space Marines, and are used as more than just elite daemon-killers.

SaintHazard wrote:Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn.

We are talking about the most heavily fortified system in the galaxy. The Grey Knights could probably see the firefight from Titan.

AlexHolker wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn.

We are talking about the most heavily fortified system in the galaxy. The Grey Knights could probably see the firefight from Titan.

But you can't tell me they wouldn't be involved, as close as Saturn is to Mars (relatively speaking). Yes, Terra's closer, but the Ad Mech isn't exactly helpless.

SaintHazard wrote:So why did the Grey Knights purge the homeworld of the Relictors?

I think that is clear, given the damonic origins of their fall to radicalism.

Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn. Certainly not the Ultramarines way over in the Ultima Segmentum.

Barring the final death of the Emperor and the extinguishing of the Astronomican, you're talking about the gravest emergency the Imperium could possibly face. Of course the GK would get involved. Furthermore, your argument is based on a combination of emergency and proximity--it has nothing to with the nature of the GK's mandate. "If one of the worst imaginable castrophes happened and it didn't involve daemons but the GK were right there, would they act?" Yeah, along with the rest of Ordo Malleus and every other loyal Imperial citizen.

People pick up and play with Chaos artifacts all day long, and the Ordo Malleus isn't the one who spanks them for it. The Hereticus does that.

The Relictors' fall had nothing to do with a daemon.

It had to do with their fascination with tainted artifacts.

SaintHazard wrote:The Relictors' fall had nothing to do with a daemon.

It had to do with their fascination with tainted artifacts.

That's what Fulgrim said, too, about his Greater Daemon-inhabited sword. Also, Malleus's jurisdiction sometimes trumps it's little brothers' in Hereticus. See Vraks. From a fluff-writing perspective, I'm with you: the Sisters should have handled that, as per their original fluff and even their re-invented fluff from WH. But that ain't what happened.

And that would mean that Sisters were capable fighters, which--as M pointed out--GW and its subsidiaries are loathe to encourage.

It ain't what happened because the Grey Knights do more than just kill daemons.

Which is the crux of my entire argument.

We may not agree on the details, but can we agree that that much is true?

I'm not really sold--but I never read the Counter trilogy (although I have the omnibus) so I will have to defer to your greater knowledge there. IA and their book make them out to be pretty exclusively devoted to eliminating the daemonic. But if WH is a model, the book just could be overstating the relationship to push the Inquisition--which was a big selling point in the early 2000s thanks to Eisenhorn/Ravenor.

I hear a lot of hate for the Grey Knights books in this thread, but honestly I thoroughly enjoyed them. Diff'rent strokes, et cetera.

In any case, we could just as easily argue that Black Library books are not hard canon (as they tend to contradict the codices often enough), which would make the Grey Knights as we know them 1) basically nothing more than daemon-killers and 2) in sore need of a codex update not just for the rules, but for the fluff as well.

Manchu wrote:And that would mean that Sisters were capable fighters, which--as M pointed out--GW and its subsidiaries are loathe to encourage.

Maybe M will get her wish. I was on the BL site the other night and noticed that one of the novels set for release in the future (next year, I think...) is about a Sororitas expedition returning to the ruins of Outpost 101. That's the infamous first contact site between the Sororitas and the Necrons.

Of course, it's also possible that the opposite will happen and the Sisters will be forced to barely escape the planet after another disasterous defeat by the Necrons.

Manchu wrote:Politico-theological realities and the letter of Imperial Law are different things. The Malleus Remit means that even Grey Knights may not refuse the Ordo aid; whether Grey Knights would consider a known radical to stand for the Ordo, however, is another matter. Also, the Grey Knights have little ability to deploy themselves because they have little capacity to investigate daemonic plots throughout the Imperium. That is the perogative of Inquisitors, who then--upon command of the masters of Ordo Mallues--unleash the Grey Knights. The only situation in which the Grey Knights would refuse the command is when they were suspicious that the command itself would violate their mandate--and in turn be contrary to the madate of Ordo Malleus, which cannot but be puritanical from the Grey Knights' point of view.

The larger issue is that Adepta Soroitas exists and operates independently from Ordo Hereticus the majority of the time. Whereas Grey Knights are only deployed except in the prosecution of Ordo Malleus business, the Sisters' involvement with Ordo Hereticus is the exception rather than the rule.

This sounds right. Basically The GKs are the attack dogs of the Ordo malleus.


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Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

@SaintHazard: But if we only use codices for canon, I shudder to think of what that means for Sisters.

Same goes for BL, actually, as Eumerin points out.

@KC: Partners in crime +++ ENFORCING THE EMPEROR'S WILL +++ more like.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

Yeah, I love them. Why they don't seem to be around in M41 is quite the mystery . . .

Radical Inquisitors themselves are not actually criminals until they are declared such. It depends on how radical, as well, and what exactly their exact beliefs are. Dark Heresy and the Radical's Handbook supplement discuss this.

Each Inquisitor is a true individual, no two really being alike.

I've never heard of anyone being suspect for their puritanical beliefs. Radicals are either criminals or potential criminals.

That's because you ahven't seen two puritan factions disagreeing with eachother

They do, by the way.

Manchu wrote:I've never heard of anyone being suspect for their puritanical beliefs. Radicals are either criminals or potential criminals.

What about Karamazov? While he hasn't actually been charged with anything, he is currently being looked at quite carefully by the groups that he's managed to upset over the years.

Given that this is a setting that allows flamethrower-wielding Redemptionists to run around, I think it's safe to say that you're not going to see many heresy charges thrown at a Puritan. On the other hand, a Puritan is probably more likely to step on toes, which means that there are probably more people who are willing to spend lots of time and money scrutinizing the Puritan's record compiling a list of all the minor slip-ups that the Puritan has committed.

Radicals, on the other hand, are frequently involved in things that merit a bolter shell to the head if discovered by those in authority. Classic examples are the two that turn up in the Sandy Mitchell novels I've read. One of them isn't even revealed to be an inquisitor until after he's already dead (and was killed while attempting to delay obvious enforcers of the Emperor's will).

Not all radicals are necessarily like that, though, and the Space Wolf codex provides one example of the Wolves covering for an inquisitor until he can successfully flee from his less radical brethren (the inquisitor in question had managed to get followers of two different Chaos Gods to turn on each other during an attempt by the Dark Gods to take control of a planet, which apparently got him into trouble with some of his fellow inquisitors).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

Aren't they under the auspices of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica? They have seemingly absolutely nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle aside from the fact that they're both units composed of women.

Though I would much rather see a Sisters of Silence codex than a SoB codex; the Sisters of Silence are pretty damn cool, and have some distinctive stuff about them.

Araenion wrote:They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Please tell me you're joking.

Please, please, please tell me you're joking.

Those two factions are only beaten by Space Marines for sheer amount of ridiculous over-the-top fluff.

SaintHazard wrote:It ain't what happened because the Grey Knights do more than just kill daemons.

Which is the crux of my entire argument.

We may not agree on the details, but can we agree that that much is true?

I'll have to take Manchu's side on this one. I also haven't read the Omnibus, because...well, obvious reasons, but the DH 'dex and their general fluff makes them out to pretty exclusively be the daemon fighters of the Ordo Malleus.

If there's stuff in the Omnibus that does in fact state that they get deployed out to fight rebellions and orks and tyrannids and Tau all the time, that may change things.