I'll call it even if there's a story in the SOB codex that has them using the holy bones of the GK's to construct a magic fortress.

Melissia wrote:By that reasoning there should also be daemons who are loyal to the Imperium, after all anything can happen

No .. no .. don't say this Melissia .. this can't happen, ever ... surely

asimo77 wrote:I'll call it even if there's a story in the SOB codex that has them using the holy bones of the GK's to construct a magic fortress.

Did the Sisters of Battle kill a bunch of Grey Knights in order to obtain the bones?

Of course. The GK ask the SOB for help in repelling some daemons. The SOB cordially reply by slaughtering them all and defiling their corpses. Then they make a magic fortress out of the bones. Then St. Celestine carves her name into Magnus' buttocks.

asimo77 wrote:Of course. The GK ask the SOB for help in repelling some daemons. The SOB cordially reply by slaughtering them all and defiling their corpses. Then they make a magic fortress out of the bones. Then St. Celestine carves her name into Magnus' buttocks.

Awesome!

I've been reading my Slaves to Darkness book and saw this on the Grey Knights...

Only the Grey Knights survive in the service of the Ordo. All other troops die when given over to them. The reason for this non-survival ong military units attached to the Prdo is simple. Any troops that an Inquisition Ordinary has commanded have been exposed to daemons. They are privy to one of the most closely-guarded Imperial secrets: that daemons exist and chaos is a terrible threat. Those that survive a battle or campaign are executed, with full military honours, shortly afterwards. They are expendable, and entire Imperial regiments and corps have been dispatched by the Ordo Malleus

Full military honours, not desecrating bodies and wearing their blood.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've been reading my Slaves to Darkness book and saw this on the Grey Knights...

Only the Grey Knights survive in the service of the Ordo. All other troops die when given over to them. The reason for this non-survival ong military units attached to the Prdo is simple. Any troops that an Inquisition Ordinary has commanded have been exposed to daemons. They are privy to one of the most closely-guarded Imperial secrets: that daemons exist and chaos is a terrible threat. Those that survive a battle or campaign are executed, with full military honours, shortly afterwards. They are expendable, and entire Imperial regiments and corps have been dispatched by the Ordo Malleus

Full military honours, not desecrating bodies and wearing their blood.

So what's the reason for keeping the info that daemons exist and that chaos is a terrible a secret?

I wonder what would happen if someone did a mass e-mail and told the entire imperium of the Daemon's existence? Would they Grey Knights have to start a crusade and kill all of mankind?

No.

Luna Dragon wrote:No.

I am glad we are all graced with your highly enlightening and tactful opinion.

The reason is simple: without the warp, the imperium ceases to exist. Psykers mean that everybody can become the host for a daemon. Suspecting everybody will mean a very fast descent into chaos and at that point you won't even NEED intervention of the chaos gods: somebody WILL fall to chaos.

The warp has been shown as able to corrupt just about anybody. The fact that the warp is so essential and so dangerous is why it's been kept as a secret.

Hell,

That said, it's NOT the fact that they killed the SoB that upsets most of us. Either for suspect corruption, or for keeping the secret, or whatever, it would have made sense. It's the WAY they've done it that's terrible, makes no sense and is just bad writing.

There isn't anything better than killing people to keep it a secret? It just seems weird. The secret looks like something that would be very hard to keep.

What's the problem with letting people know? Does that increase the chances of people being corrupted by Chaos?

Hot off the presses, the Baron roasts...errr... reviews Codex: Grey Knights.

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/news/1-latest-news/1312-tis-but-a-scratch-the-baron-reviews-codex-grey-knights

Lord Scythican wrote:There isn't anything better than killing people to keep it a secret? It just seems weird. The secret looks like something that would be very hard to keep.

What's the problem with letting people know? Does that increase the chances of people being corrupted by Chaos?

I'd say yes. Fear, anger, suspect... All could be easily exploited to drag people into the worship of chaos... I mean... Even the best of the humanity can fall to chaos, what hope is there? The common people would just revolt.

GeckoOBac wrote:
I'd say yes. Fear, anger, suspect... All could be easily exploited to drag people into the worship of chaos... I mean... Even the best of the humanity can fall to chaos, what hope is there? The common people would just revolt.

That makes sense, but what if you had a 40K version of Wikileaks? Would you kill everyone or just say "The cat is out of the bag folks"

Lord Scythican wrote:

That makes sense, but what if you had a 40K version of Wikileaks? Would you kill everyone or just say "The cat is out of the bag folks"

You have to remember, this is 40k. The Government is infallible and the only solution to any problem is kill people.

Light bulb burned out? Kill one serf a day until it's fixed.

The whole 'desecrating' thing bothers me, what is that suggesting exactly?

GeckoOBac wrote:The reason is simple: without the warp, the imperium ceases to exist. Psykers mean that everybody can become the host for a daemon. Suspecting everybody will mean a very fast descent into chaos and at that point you won't even NEED intervention of the chaos gods: somebody WILL fall to chaos.

The warp has been shown as able to corrupt just about anybody. The fact that the warp is so essential and so dangerous is why it's been kept as a secret.

Hell,

Spoiler:

In the HH novel "Horus Rising", it is clearly stated that the emperor ordered his primarchs to keep the threat of the warp as a secret even from his Astartes. If even the emperor thought that knowing the truth about the warp would be dangerous, it's no wonder that they still keep the secret.

That said, it's NOT the fact that they killed the SoB that upsets most of us. Either for suspect corruption, or for keeping the secret, or whatever, it would have made sense. It's the WAY they've done it that's terrible, makes no sense and is just bad writing.

Even then, he didn't tell the Primarchs about the CG, and let them think that daemons were just Xenos that live in the warp (a bit like enslavers)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Even then, he didn't tell the Primarchs about the CG, and let them think that daemons were just Xenos that live in the warp (a bit like enslavers)

And THAT didn't bite him in the ass at all...

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Even then, he didn't tell the Primarchs about the CG, and let them think that daemons were just Xenos that live in the warp (a bit like enslavers)

And THAT didn't bite him in the ass at all...

heh, given some of the materials he had laying around (Like, you know, a guy who's angry even in its name?), revealing the existence of the chaos gods wouldn't have had much different results imho... Though perhaps history would have gone somewhat differently.

Sorry I didn't read all 11 pages...

Has anyone brought up the Jokaero yet? While I think it's kind of cool there's a model for them now, it goes against ALL fluff to even include them in an army list. It also degrades their specialness insinuating that they are no longer the exclusive manufacturers of Jokaero Digital Weapons(tm).

HOW are kids these days supposed to get their fluff straight when they do crap like this? Who's going to teach them about Powerboards and STC Templates and Electoos? Hopefully not this Ward slow.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
HOW are kids these days supposed to get their fluff straight when they do crap like this? Who's going to teach them about Powerboards and STC Templates and Electoos? Hopefully not this Ward slow.

I hope this wasnt sacarasm, because I agree. Its really sad that GW has become so lazy with the continuity of the games background.

I was so disappointed when the Chaos Marine codex came out, that I stopped playing. I followed what was going on in the game, but couldnt be bothered to buy or play. I guess I'm waiting for the mistake to be realized and the 180 to be done.

GK just keeps dumming down their games, now their dumming down the background stuff

Jokaero shouldn't be in this codex period. I realize that Codex: Ordo Xenos is probably never going to be written, but this is just ridiculous.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Jokaero shouldn't be in this codex period. I realize that Codex: Ordo Xenos is probably never going to be written, but this is just ridiculous.

It WOULD be interesting to play as deathwatch though...

Murdock129 wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:
Why doesnt some one start a petition to GW to have him stopped from ruining everything he he touches, i mean damn near every one thinks hes a terrible writer.

Done, link below if you wanna sign it

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopMattWard/

Well, I can pat myself on the back - signed and dated

asimo77 wrote:Of course. The GK ask the SOB for help in repelling some daemons. The SOB cordially reply by slaughtering them all and defiling their corpses. Then they make a magic fortress out of the bones. Then St. Celestine carves her name into Magnus' buttocks.

Lol that sounds plausible in this twisted world of Matt Ward's.

Matt Ward's vengeance on the GKs would be the SoB calling the Ultrasmurfs to help them against the GKs, because Mutt Wart plays UM so they can't POSSIBLY lose.

BaronIveagh wrote:Hot off the presses, the Baron roasts...errr... reviews Codex: Grey Knights.

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/news/1-latest-news/1312-tis-but-a-scratch-the-baron-reviews-codex-grey-knights

err

'Tis But a Scratch!: The Baron Reviews Codex: Grey Knights
erminators and Obliterators...errr...Jokaero Weaponsmiths... as troops, teleporting landraiders, and the ability to automatically inflict deep strike mishaps on your opponent seem to say all that needs to be said.

Am I reading that right?

Teleporting Landraiders?

... honestly?

Pilau Rice wrote:Am I reading that right?

Teleporting Landraiders?

... honestly?

From what I've heard, yes. There's a vehicle upgrade (Warp Stabilisation Field?) that lets a Librarian teleport the vehicle with his Summoning power.

Teleporting Land Raiders is perfectly natural and acceptable. How else could Ward one-up flying Land Raiders? In fact this is pretty smart since it still leaves room for time traveling Land Raiders.

asimo77 wrote:I'll call it even if there's a story in the SOB codex that has them using the holy bones of the GK's to construct a magic fortress.

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cannibal wrote:Teleporting Land Raiders is perfectly natural and acceptable. How else could Ward one-up flying Land Raiders? In fact this is pretty smart since it still leaves room for time traveling Land Raiders.

TROLOLOLOLOLOL

And they can talk! And transform into bigger dread-knights! And come from forge-world cybertron!

Seriously, ripping on "teleporting Land Raiders" is just stupid, C:SM Librarians teleport around all the time. Besides, using psychic powers to move stuff over great distances happens all the time. Now, dropping them from Thunderhawks and crossing your fingers on the other hand...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Seriously, ripping on "teleporting Land Raiders" is just stupid, C:SM Librarians teleport around all the time. Besides, using psychic powers to move stuff over great distances happens all the time. Now, dropping them from Thunderhawks and crossing your fingers on the other hand...

Teleporting yourself around is one thing, but teleporting how ever many tonnes of tank around is a different story.

They'll have Titans teleporting next, or teleporting Titans with Land Raiders as roller skates

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Seriously, ripping on "teleporting Land Raiders" is just stupid, C:SM Librarians teleport around all the time. Besides, using psychic powers to move stuff over great distances happens all the time. Now, dropping them from Thunderhawks and crossing your fingers on the other hand...

Teleporting yourself around is one thing, but teleporting how ever many tonnes of tank around is a different story.

They'll have Titans teleporting next, or teleporting Titans with Land Raiders as roller skates

Who says that tonnes mean anything? Perhaps it's actually easier to teleport a LR than a single human being due to it being much more resilient and easy to identify. Really, teleporting land raiders is quite plausible compared to some of the things we see... Besides, it kinda sucks. It's like BA deep striking land raiders, except that you can't do it anywhere, you have to pay more for it and it's MORE likely to fail given you HAVE to place the land raider in a 6" radius from the librarian, meaning you are basically automatically raising your chances of mishap.

Funny you should mention that... I think Matt Ward DID have the Grey Knights teleport Titan. The moon that is.

GeckoOBac wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Seriously, ripping on "teleporting Land Raiders" is just stupid, C:SM Librarians teleport around all the time. Besides, using psychic powers to move stuff over great distances happens all the time. Now, dropping them from Thunderhawks and crossing your fingers on the other hand...

Teleporting yourself around is one thing, but teleporting how ever many tonnes of tank around is a different story.

They'll have Titans teleporting next, or teleporting Titans with Land Raiders as roller skates

Who says that tonnes mean anything? Perhaps it's actually easier to teleport a LR than a single human being due to it being much more resilient and easy to identify. Really, teleporting land raiders is quite plausible compared to some of the things we see... Besides, it kinda sucks. It's like BA deep striking land raiders, except that you can't do it anywhere, you have to pay more for it and it's MORE likely to fail given you HAVE to place the land raider in a 6" radius from the librarian, meaning you are basically automatically raising your chances of mishap.

Well in that case I bow to your superior knowledge of teleportation. I'll clamber in to my roller skating Titan and will be on my jolly way

My point is with a psyker it's easy enough as it's only the psyker doing the teleporting, it knows itself inside and out. With a Land Raider theres it's size, components, crew etc.

I don't know how a Deep striking land raider actually works as I haven't read the Blood Angels codex. Doesn't it need the Storm Raven?

The Grey Knights are just way over the top now and I can't see an end to it getting worse. Deep Striking Land Raiders, Teleporting Land Raider, when's it going to end?

Cannibal wrote:Funny you should mention that... I think Matt Ward DID have the Grey Knights teleport Titan. The moon that is.

Didn't Malcador just move it into the warp?

This was answered on Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108608&d=1301994426

Actual Codex page... explains everything.

Pilau Rice wrote:Didn't Malcador just move it into the warp?

And teleportation in 40k works by?

Pilau Rice wrote:I don't know how a Deep striking land raider actually works as I haven't read the Blood Angels codex. Doesn't it need the Storm Raven?

Basically, they drop it from a thunderhawk and hope it doesn't break when it hits the ground. Gameplay-wise, it just starts in reserve and deep strikes as normal.

Pilau Rice wrote:My point is with a psyker it's easy enough as it's only the psyker doing the teleporting, it knows itself inside and out. With a Land Raider theres it's size, components, crew etc.

Gate of Infinity (or what ever the C:SM libby port is called, us Black Templars don't take kindly to witches anyway ) lets you teleport the Librarian's entire squad. Thus there's "crew", the "components" of armour, weapons etc.

Grey Knights worshipping Khorne? Next thing you know Eldar will worship Slannesh.



Oh, right.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And teleportation in 40k works by?

Ok I see your point. Doesn't mean that it's a good thing I can't imagine that he was teleporting Titan all around the place like I can see these landraiders doing.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Basically, they drop it from a thunderhawk and hope it doesn't break when it hits the ground. Gameplay-wise, it just starts in reserve and deep strikes as normal.

I can kinda believe this more than teleporting Land raiders, we kinda do this sorta thing already. But once again, doesn't make it a good thing. I can't imagine that they would drop a Landraider from a great distance above the ground, I dunno maybe they do. Maybe they use the Landraider like drop pods, hey that's an idea for you Mr Ward

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Gate of Infinity (or what ever the C:SM libby port is called, us Black Templars don't take kindly to witches anyway ) lets you teleport the Librarian's entire squad. Thus there's "crew", the "components" of armour, weapons etc.

Didn't know about this either. But I still think a teleporting Land Raider is kinda silly.

Cannibal wrote:it seems like Khorne would really approve of Grey Knights.

AFAIK, they are all psykers, KHORNE not approved.

Tzeench will love them.
Grey Knights new Warcry : "WE SHALL CHANGE YOU!"
Now I excuse me I am going to add tentacles onto my Grey Knights..

Pilau Rice wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Hot off the presses, the Baron roasts...errr... reviews Codex: Grey Knights.

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/news/1-latest-news/1312-tis-but-a-scratch-the-baron-reviews-codex-grey-knights

err

'Tis But a Scratch!: The Baron Reviews Codex: Grey Knights
erminators and Obliterators...errr...Jokaero Weaponsmiths... as troops, teleporting landraiders, and the ability to automatically inflict deep strike mishaps on your opponent seem to say all that needs to be said.

Am I reading that right?

Teleporting Landraiders?

... honestly?

He gave BA deep striking landraiders and flying librarian dreadnoughts and you find this weird?

im2randomghgh wrote:

He gave BA deep striking landraiders and flying librarian dreadnoughts and you find this weird?

Yes I did

It's my inexperience with the other codex that is my downfall, I only know certain aspects of the ones I have come across and luckily haven't had the joy of fighting a flying librarian dreadnought. Although when I heard about the Librarian Dreadnought I was a bit like wtf?

I can understand Land Raiders being dropped in by Thunderhawk. But yeah, flying Librarian Dreadnoughts is a bit too far.

GeckoOBac wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Seriously, ripping on "teleporting Land Raiders" is just stupid, C:SM Librarians teleport around all the time. Besides, using psychic powers to move stuff over great distances happens all the time. Now, dropping them from Thunderhawks and crossing your fingers on the other hand...

Teleporting yourself around is one thing, but teleporting how ever many tonnes of tank around is a different story.

They'll have Titans teleporting next, or teleporting Titans with Land Raiders as roller skates

Who says that tonnes mean anything? Perhaps it's actually easier to teleport a LR than a single human being due to it being much more resilient and easy to identify. Really, teleporting land raiders is quite plausible compared to some of the things we see... Besides, it kinda sucks. It's like BA deep striking land raiders, except that you can't do it anywhere, you have to pay more for it and it's MORE likely to fail given you HAVE to place the land raider in a 6" radius from the librarian, meaning you are basically automatically raising your chances of mishap.

Im just guessing here, but maybe he meant size rather than weight? Because opening a gate of infinity the size of a man to teleport them would be easier than making one the size of an Imperator.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Im just guessing here, but maybe he meant size rather than weight? Because opening a gate of infinity the size of a man to teleport them would be easier than making one the size of an Imperator.

Yeah, i meant size and weight, sorry for being vague.

Gate of Infinity I guess is like a doorway that I would assume the squad and librarian walks through?

Having something Like a Landraider transported by these means must be more difficult for the psyker, it's not like a Land raider has Warp Drives attached to it, or has Ward done that as well?

So does anyone have an idea how long it will take to get over the whole slaughtering and bathing in blood thing? I mean by this point it has to be all good right? Grey Knights can't be corrupted so they can do things like this and it is still pure right? What happens if there is a blood tide and no sisters to grind up into bloodshakes? Do the Grey Knights get corrupted by Chaos? I thought that was impossible, but if it is then why would they need to make bloodshakes out of the sisters?

I am still laughing a little inside. I said this would happen and everyone thought I was crazy.

Pilau Rice wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Im just guessing here, but maybe he meant size rather than weight? Because opening a gate of infinity the size of a man to teleport them would be easier than making one the size of an Imperator.

Yeah, i meant size and weight, sorry for being vague.

Gate of Infinity I guess is like a doorway that I would assume the squad and librarian walks through?

Having something Like a Landraider transported by these means must be more difficult for the psyker, it's not like a Land raider has Warp Drives attached to it, or has Ward done that as well?

Erm... He kinda... Did.

No seriously, if you want to teleport vehicles you have to buy the warp stabilization field which is something akin to the fields used on spaceships, only smaller. The actual "propulsion" though is provided by the psyker.

GeckoOBac wrote:
Erm... He kinda... Did.

No seriously, if you want to teleport vehicles you have to buy the warp stabilization field which is something akin to the fields used on spaceships, only smaller. The actual "propulsion" though is provided by the psyker.

Sweet, so if you start to lose a game your Land Raider can enable it's Warp Stabilization Field and fire its Librarian up and fly back to Titan.

What a load of tripe

So my friend bought the GK codex and reading the fluff I believe it was pg 14 for the aftermath of Malantai paraphrased:

'while the majority of Grey Knights returned to Titan a small contingent stayed and guarded the cache of Soul Stones until the Eldar could retrieve them.'

We thought it out that it could make sense to put them in storage as destroying them would feed Slaanesh but give them back? It lead to the idea of some terrain I have to make now.

A box of soul stones with a note

"Perfidious Eldar,
here are the souls of your Fallen.
XOXO
Brother-Captain Pelonas" (name check)

So they kill allies who aren't tainted in anyway and they also baby sit Eldar souls?

Egads

So how did this come about?

Every moment a new more perplexing revelation.

And I thought I knew a bit about the background, guess it's my age

Sounds like they need to be cleansed by your local am chapter ....

I am just waiting for someone to model some Grey Knights covered in blood. I thought about using some GK terminators bitz for my Knights of Blood. I may just have to splash some sister blood all over them.

Maybe an Aquila of Blood in the style of the blood dragon armor from dragon age?

Melissia wrote:Maybe an Aquila of Blood in the style of the blood dragon armor from dragon age?

That would be pretty cool. I started up some Knights of Blood awhile back. Here is one WIP pic:




So going with something like this, I could take some Grey Knights, use a similar paint scheme and the blood dragon armour and make some Grey Knights of Blood! Its going to happen.

Nice liquid texture by the way.

Melissia wrote:Nice liquid texture by the way.

Thanks! I made it by mixing some Chainmail and Blood Red together. I have it a black wash and then a red ink wash. I thought it gave a wet blood look. It is what I was shooting for, so I am glad it looks liquid like.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Sweet, so if you start to lose a game your Land Raider can enable it's Warp Stabilization Field and fire its Librarian up and fly back to Titan.

What a load of tripe

Yes, if you had the Emperor or Magnus providing the immense psychic energy that would require, you could.

Pilau Rice wrote:

I can understand Land Raiders being dropped in by Thunderhawk.

So could I, if they landed to deploy it. Dropping it out at high altitude with no grav-chutes and just relying on the armour of the thing to protect it is just silly.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Having something Like a Landraider transported by these means must be more difficult for the psyker, it's not like a Land raider has Warp Drives attached to it, or has Ward done that as well?

TBH the "warp stabilization field" upgrade letting you teleport Land Raiders (relatively) short, in combination with the fact that Grey Knight Librarians are leagues above "normal" Librarians, doesn't seem too far-fetched to me...

Pilau Rice wrote:So they kill allies who aren't tainted in anyway and they also baby sit Eldar souls?

Egads

So how did this come about?

Every moment a new more perplexing revelation.

And I thought I knew a bit about the background, guess it's my age

This is easily explained by pragmatism. They had three options:

1: Let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Not smart.

2: Don't let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Destroy the spirit stones afterwards, sending them directly to Slaanesh via w(warp)-mail. Also not smart.

3: Don't let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Give the spirit stones back to the Eldar, who can safekeep them, when you're done.

Okay, I guess there's a number 4: Just keep the stones, but really, what would they use them for? Besides, the Eldar would probably give them a gakstorm of epic proportions if/when they found out.

As bad as this sounds its really no where near as horrible as the BA and necron thing. I can justify gakward on this little story because it states that it was a necessary action to stop the blood tide. KALDOR is the problem people, his fluff is awfull and a dreadknight is a slap to the face to OG fluff. Also i am really gutted that Justicar Alaric and actual Chaplains did not make it into this codex, I bet gakward did not even read the grey knights series when he made the codex too busy mastur@$%ing to the ultramarine's novels :/

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, if you had the Emperor or Magnus providing the immense psychic energy that would require, you could.

If the Landraider has warp drives and a navigator .. sorry, Librarian .. then thats all you would need. If it's a Grey Knight going back to home to it's magical teleporting planet then the guys there would let them come home.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:So could I, if they landed to deploy it. Dropping it out at high altitude with no grav-chutes and just relying on the armour of the thing to protect it is just silly.

Yes, like I said in the rest of my post you quoted.

Pilau Rice wrote:I can't imagine that they would drop a Landraider from a great distance above the ground, I dunno maybe they do. Maybe they use the Landraider like drop pods, hey that's an idea for you Mr Ward

Pilau Rice wrote:TBH the "warp stabilization field" upgrade letting you teleport Land Raiders (relatively) short, in combination with the fact that Grey Knight Librarians are leagues above "normal" Librarians, doesn't seem too far-fetched to me...

Well that's you isn't it. I think it's kinda stupid, so we'll have to disagree on this one.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:This is easily explained by pragmatism. They had three options:

1: Let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Not smart.

2: Don't let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Destroy the spirit stones afterwards, sending them directly to Slaanesh via w(warp)-mail. Also not smart.

3: Don't let the daemons happily ravage their way through the burnt-out husk of Malan'tai and gorge on the countless spirit stones. Give the spirit stones back to the Eldar, who can safekeep them, when you're done.

Okay, I guess there's a number 4: Just keep the stones, but really, what would they use them for? Besides, the Eldar would probably give them a gakstorm of epic proportions if/when they found out.

An even better explanation would be that the Eldar from another craftworld, or maybe some of the few surviving Eldar from Malan'tai went back to collect said Soul Stones without the Grey Knights getting involved. Seems unnecessary to me that there would be even any need to mention Grey Knights.

physcosamatic wrote:As bad as this sounds its really no where near as horrible as the BA and necron thing. I can justify gakward on this little story because it states that it was a necessary action to stop the blood tide. KALDOR is the problem people, his fluff is awfull and a dreadknight is a slap to the face to OG fluff. Also i am really gutted that Justicar Alaric and actual Chaplains did not make it into this codex, I bet gakward did not even read the grey knights series when he made the codex too busy mastur@$%ing to the ultramarine's novels :/

But was it really necessary? I mean they can't be corrupted, so why did they need to Sister's Blood for protection?

C&P from Female Marine thread:

No I saw Ward's notes. He forgot to put the 667th test in, but it will be in the errata.

Basically the test is that Grey Knights are told that the Blood Tide can surpass all of their wards and crap they use that makes them uncorruptable. They are told the only way to protect themselves is to slaughter some nuns and smear their blood all over themselves and have a manbloodorgy. However this is a lie and only part of the 667th test. Those who do this fail the test because they put doubt in themselves and perform a Khorne Blood Ritual. If they would have kept their faith and believed in their already uncorruptable status and not had a blood bath, then they would have passed.

The 669th Test is even worse. It involves Space Dolphins.

I never even thought to look at it that way. Simply by doing ANYTHING to augment their psychic defenses they have proven doubt in themselves. And they didn't do just anything either, they committed a sin to murder faithful ecclesiarchy. I remember a quote from DoW- "Doubt is for the dying"

Cannibal wrote:I never even thought to look at it that way. Simply by doing ANYTHING to augment their psychic defenses they have proven doubt in themselves. And they didn't do just anything either, they committed a sin to murder faithful ecclesiarchy. I remember a quote from DoW- "Doubt is for the dying"

I am glad you saw it that way. I was half joking with that post (the whole 667th and space dolphins thing), but the other half was serious.

To me, I think the way you put it, is the best way to describe the fluff that has been changed. The GKs should not have had to do that to keep themselves from being corrupted. They were already uncorruptable, so by shedding the innocent blood, they gave in to their doubts and the influence of Khorne.

This shows that Grey Knights are not infallible, which is what always drove me crazy about people and their anti-Chaos grey knight talk.

I don't want a Chaos Grey Knight army, but it drives me crazy when someone says something is impossible in a fictional game. Nothing is impossible.

Lord Scythican wrote: Nothing is impossible.

Except the return of Squats

Cannibal wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote: Nothing is impossible.

Except the return of Squats

Unless they are secretly codenamed Demiurg. Coming to a Galaxy Near You! Tau First Quarter 2012!

Lord Scythican wrote:
To me, I think the way you put it, is the best way to describe the fluff that has been changed. The GKs should not have had to do that to keep themselves from being corrupted. They were already uncorruptable, so by shedding the innocent blood, they gave in to their doubts and the influence of Khorne.

This shows that Grey Knights are not infallible, which is what always drove me crazy about people and their anti-Chaos grey knight talk.

Yeah, by the act of spilling pure blood they've made themselves impure. It's like not needed and kinda makes a bit of a mockery of them being the most incorruptible force of space marines

Pilau Rice wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:
To me, I think the way you put it, is the best way to describe the fluff that has been changed. The GKs should not have had to do that to keep themselves from being corrupted. They were already uncorruptable, so by shedding the innocent blood, they gave in to their doubts and the influence of Khorne.

This shows that Grey Knights are not infallible, which is what always drove me crazy about people and their anti-Chaos grey knight talk.

Yeah, by the act of spilling pure blood they've made themselves impure. It's like not needed and kinda makes a bit of a mockery of them being the most incorruptible force of space marines

Honestly this is a good interpretation of the current fluff. They should have stuck with the training they got from the 666 tests. This group lost their way and now Khorne will lead them out of the Forest of Doubt that they have created and into a new faith. Blood for the Blood God!

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, if you had the Emperor or Magnus providing the immense psychic energy that would require, you could.

If the Landraider has warp drives and a navigator .. sorry, Librarian .. then thats all you would need. If it's a Grey Knight going back to home to it's magical teleporting planet then the guys there would let them come home.

It doesn't have "warp engines" though, it's got a "warp stabilization field", which I imagine is something similar to the Geller Fields on the starships of the Imperium, only on an infinetly smaller scale. Thus, the Librarian will have to provide all the energy to move the Land Raider himself. How much of an effort that is can only be speculated about, but I'd imagine that moving a Land Raider from, for example, Ultramar to Titan would be more energy-consuming than moving it from Terra to Luna, which would still be quite a distance.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, if you had the Emperor or Magnus providing the immense psychic energy that would require, you could.

If the Landraider has warp drives and a navigator .. sorry, Librarian .. then thats all you would need. If it's a Grey Knight going back to home to it's magical teleporting planet then the guys there would let them come home.

It doesn't have "warp engines" though, it's got a "warp stabilization field", which I imagine is something similar to the Geller Fields on the starships of the Imperium, only on an infinetly smaller scale. Thus, the Librarian will have to provide all the energy to move the Land Raider himself. How much of an effort that is can only be speculated about, but I'd imagine that moving a Land Raider from, for example, Ultramar to Titan would be more energy-consuming than moving it from Terra to Luna, which would still be quite a distance.

If it did have warp drives and a Librarian as well as it's "warp stabilization field" that's all a Warp flying teleporting Landraider of doom would need. But my comment was in more in jest replying to

GeckoOBac wrote:
No seriously, if you want to teleport vehicles you have to buy the warp stabilization field which is something akin to the fields used on spaceships, only smaller. The actual "propulsion" though is provided by the psyker.

Specifically the psyker propulsion. With the Warp Drives you wouldn't need the psyker to push the Landraider along.

Maybe you could use the Librarian to give you a turbo though

Ah, ok, thought you were referring to my post.

Also, sorry for the quote fail, wasn't my intention.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ah, ok, thought you were referring to my post.

Also, sorry for the quote fail, wasn't my intention.

No problem

In our discussions we have kinda established that Grey Knights

Could have Land Raiders capable of warp flight
Have Khornate tendencies
Baby sit for Eldar

Why did they do this to the Grey Knights? The Dredknights and Chaos Knights have turned the codex into a terrible abomination. Plus who is Kaldor? Some crapy character.

So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

Ok so if there were no sisters, then they would have walked through warp plague and been corrupted, something that was not possible before this codex.

And while what you are reading makes sense in that context, it is still bad. You could easily replace Sisters of Battle with 666 6 year old girls and by your justification, it would be a extra measure of protection. Just because it makes sense in the context of the fluff, doesn't mean it isn't stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Matt Ward would not have written the codex and another writer would have relied on established fluff, that passage would have said something along the lines of:

Needing no talisman of purity to protect themselves against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is escort the surving and uncorrupted Sisters of Battle away from the Bloodtide. With the sister's blessing and sacred oils used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

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makes sense to me .

im2randomghgh wrote:î
l
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makes sense to me .

You have my permission to print that off in the appropriate size and font and glue it overtop of the other passage in you codex.

chaos0xomega wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

chaos0xomega wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons.

chaos0xomega wrote:the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled

chaos0xomega wrote:The innocent blood thus spilled

chaos0xomega wrote:while GK are 'pure'

The innocent blood thus spilled, while GK are 'pure', the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle.

Khorne approves, even if it was psykers doing it.

Lord Scythican wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

Ok so if there were no sisters, then they would have walked through warp plague and been corrupted, something that was not possible before this codex.

Now that chaos0xomega points it out, it actually makes sense for the Grey Knights to take precautions as this. And, again as pointed out, this is the very reason why no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos. In fact, judging from the GK Omnibus, that seems to be what the Grey Knights fear most, being the first of their order to fall to Chaos.

That said, they could've just asked the sisters to die willingly, and if they said no done a big /care and killed them anyway. Not that they'd refuse, mind you.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That said, they could've just asked the sisters to die willingly, and if they said no done a big /care and killed them anyway. Not that they'd refuse, mind you.

Which, combined with the fact that they rubbed up in BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, is the reason why that snippet of fluff is just so bad. No one's complaining about Grey Knights killing Imperials for the greater good, but rather for the way it's done in this example.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Now that chaos0xomega points it out, it actually makes sense for the Grey Knights to take precautions as this. And, again as pointed out, this is the very reason why no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos. In fact, judging from the GK Omnibus, that seems to be what the Grey Knights fear most, being the first of their order to fall to Chaos.

That said, they could've just asked the sisters to die willingly, and if they said no done a big /care and killed them anyway. Not that they'd refuse, mind you.

By acknowledging that they need to kill the sisters and cover themselves in blood to keep themselves from being corrupted, they are inadvertently destroying fluff that says they can't be corrupted. No Sisters to slaughter = Chaos Grey Knights in the Blood Tide Situation.

Previously this was unnecessary because the Grey Knights could have walked in their and did their business without a fear of being corrupted.

This stinks of "because the Grey Knights did it, it is ok."

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

Haters gonna hate, Ward... and i'm with them!

Just finished reading Victories of the Space Marines...

geordie09 wrote:

Just finished reading Victories of the Space Marines...

Spoiler:

and it seems that a pure soul is killed and the individuals blood used to sanctify every round of ammunition used by the GK's. Thats one dude for every round... thats a lot of dudes! And it also seems that for every suit of armour created for the GK's, a Black Ship full of untrained psykers and witches is used in sacrifices to give the armour protection. With this in mind it seems like a few SoB is little price to pay to stem this Bloodtide thingy... still hate Ward tough!

Wow. And this is ok because they say it is? Grey Knights being pure is BS. Did you know that Khorne Berserkers only kill people so they can be blessed with their blood? Seriously!

Lord Scythican wrote:

geordie09 wrote:

Just finished reading Victories of the Space Marines...

Spoiler:

and it seems that a pure soul is killed and the individuals blood used to sanctify every round of ammunition used by the GK's. Thats one dude for every round... thats a lot of dudes! And it also seems that for every suit of armour created for the GK's, a Black Ship full of untrained psykers and witches is used in sacrifices to give the armour protection. With this in mind it seems like a few SoB is little price to pay to stem this Bloodtide thingy... still hate Ward tough!

Wow. And this is ok because they say it is? Grey Knights being pure is BS. Did you know that Khorne Berserkers only kill people so they can be blessed with their blood? Seriously!

The difference between Grey Knights and Beserkers is massive and obvious... Beserkers + Mindless slaughter = fun!

geordie09 wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

geordie09 wrote:

Just finished reading Victories of the Space Marines...

Spoiler:

and it seems that a pure soul is killed and the individuals blood used to sanctify every round of ammunition used by the GK's. Thats one dude for every round... thats a lot of dudes! And it also seems that for every suit of armour created for the GK's, a Black Ship full of untrained psykers and witches is used in sacrifices to give the armour protection. With this in mind it seems like a few SoB is little price to pay to stem this Bloodtide thingy... still hate Ward tough!

Wow. And this is ok because they say it is? Grey Knights being pure is BS. Did you know that Khorne Berserkers only kill people so they can be blessed with their blood? Seriously!

The difference between Grey Knights and Beserkers is massive and obvious... Beserkers + Mindless slaughter = fun!

True, but picture this:

Homicidal Maniac kills 74 people at Retirement home. Police arrive and slaughter 74 civilians in the housing development next to the retirement home to practice their shooting before they take the Homicidal Maniac down. Its justified!

geordie09 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

Haters gonna hate, Ward... and i'm with them!

Just finished reading Victories of the Space Marines...

Spoiler:

and it seems that a pure soul is killed and the individuals blood used to sanctify every round of ammunition used by the GK's. Thats one dude for every round... thats a lot of dudes! And it also seems that for every suit of armour created for the GK's, a Black Ship full of untrained psykers and witches is used in sacrifices to give the armour protection. With this in mind it seems like a few SoB is little price to pay to stem this Bloodtide thingy... still hate Ward tough!

Once again, the issue is not that innocents are killed (for the greater good!), but how it is done. Had the sisters offered themselves as sacrifice (which fits perfectly with their fluff), it would have been (mostly) fine, but the codex implies that the Grey Knights just turned around and cut them down. Likewise, the Grey Knights needing protection against corruption kind of goes against established fluff that states that they are pure and uncorruptable. What with the sould binding and the hexagrammic wards and the Aegis and all 666 trials that ensure that these guys are proof against taint. Lastly, the whole 'rubbing up in blood' is kind of Chaotic sounding. Khorne would be delighted.

The simple point of the matter is that it is completely out of character in this situation.

Lord Scythican wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Now that chaos0xomega points it out, it actually makes sense for the Grey Knights to take precautions as this. And, again as pointed out, this is the very reason why no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos. In fact, judging from the GK Omnibus, that seems to be what the Grey Knights fear most, being the first of their order to fall to Chaos.

That said, they could've just asked the sisters to die willingly, and if they said no done a big /care and killed them anyway. Not that they'd refuse, mind you.

By acknowledging that they need to kill the sisters and cover themselves in blood to keep themselves from being corrupted, they are inadvertently destroying fluff that says they can't be corrupted. No Sisters to slaughter = Chaos Grey Knights in the Blood Tide Situation.

We don't know that, just as they didn't in the fluff. Could they have walked through the Bloodtide and been unaffected by it? Sure. The question is, do you really think they'd be willing to take the risk of being the first Grey Knights to fall to Chaos? Again, it's not the fact that they kill the sisters and take their blood, it's that they do it without asking.

Really, if they just changed it to the sisters offering their pure blood as a sacrifice to ensure the protection of the Knights, martyring themselves so that their blood may be used in a ritual to protect the Grey Knights and grant their weapons the strength to cut down M'kar, it would have been a lot better.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Now that chaos0xomega points it out, it actually makes sense for the Grey Knights to take precautions as this. And, again as pointed out, this is the very reason why no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos. In fact, judging from the GK Omnibus, that seems to be what the Grey Knights fear most, being the first of their order to fall to Chaos.

That said, they could've just asked the sisters to die willingly, and if they said no done a big /care and killed them anyway. Not that they'd refuse, mind you.

By acknowledging that they need to kill the sisters and cover themselves in blood to keep themselves from being corrupted, they are inadvertently destroying fluff that says they can't be corrupted. No Sisters to slaughter = Chaos Grey Knights in the Blood Tide Situation.

We don't know that, just as they didn't in the fluff. Could they have walked through the Bloodtide and been unaffected by it? Sure. The question is, do you really think they'd be willing to take the risk of being the first Grey Knights to fall to Chaos? Again, it's not the fact that they kill the sisters and take their blood, it's that they do it without asking.

I don't get it...

"Hey girls erm... we've kind of figured out how to do this but erm, well... ha, you'll laugh at this, no really you will..."

Not being a paragon of GK history I can't comment on the fluff that went before but the idea of this situation suiting Khorne is right up there with established fluff.

It doesn't matter where the blood comes from... I'm sure something similar to this is in C:CSM?

It's an excellent ploy from the Dark Gods... "lets make a plague that can only be stopped by butchering a bunch of power armoured nuns..."

It must have been though up by Slaanesh in the board room and quickly seconded by Khorne.

Still hate Ward...

I know it isn't strictly stated (which is part of the problem) but who is to say all were slayed and the sisters didn't help willingly in the ritual? Also, being "Anointed" doesn't mean "bathed" a simple anointing can be a small dab on each piece of armor or a single small symbol on armor and weapon. That would not need a whole lot of blood.

While I agree the writing method used here can be interpreted many ways, automatically assuming they "slaughtered the whole lot of them" and "bathed in their blood" is a little extreme.

Look, arguing if GKs can walk through blood tide uncorrupted or if they need ulterior protection is senseless.

Take the meta perspective, the one Ward was supposed (heh) to have: either they can or they cannot. Previous fluff says: they can. What do I do? Change that? Ok, that might as well be a good idea, afterall it's grimdark. But how? Well you could have the nuns sacrifice themselves, you could have the GKs spend time in some cleansing ritual or you could have the way Ward chose. Which is bad.

So the problem is not "IF" they are immune to corruption or not, but "HOW" you depict your choice about that.

[Edit: I want to stress a thing. For all the love and liking we have for them, Grey Knights are fictional characters. They don't have characteristic of their own, especially since the development of their background is an ongoing process through novels and codexes. So don't try to reason a la "What would a grey knight do?", but try to reason in a "What should I, as a writer of fluff, do to bring forth some characteristics?".]

With Aegis suits taking hundreds of souls to create in order to protect a GK from chaos, it's just silliness that one more murder makes the difference of protection or corruption. Furthermore, if that one more ritual sacrifice really did make the difference, and Grey Knights really are all about doing everything possible for the greatest chance of success, why only this one time? Why don't Grey Knights take blood showers before every single battle as standard operating procedure.

chaos0xomega wrote:So, I actually bothered to read the codex, and I am now convinced that dakkites either love to hate, or are lacking in critical reading :

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

The GK don't mindlessly slaughter the SoB and then bathe in their blood. Its a carefully executed, well thought out and planned ritual to protect themselves from what is in effect a 'warp plague' of blood that literally corrupts everything it touches. Its an extra measure of protection, while the Grey Knights souls are incorruptible, their flesh is not. Furthermore, while GK are 'pure' and have never (to the extent of our knowledge) had a brother fall to chaos, that does not mean its impossible. It doesn't happen because the GK take precautions such as this to prevent that from occurring.

Also, clearly as per this piece of fluff, SoB are not incorruptible, as it states flat out that more than a few are corrupted by the bloodtide.

Haters gonna hate

Wow, you just called that act 'carefully executed'... lol.

I might point out that all a warp drive does it open a very large short lived warp gate for the ship to pass through. The Navigator propels it. So, yes, in theory, a powerful enough librarian could actually translate an entire landraider + men to...well.. wherever, really, now that they have Geller fields.

One must consider how much blood the blood god is really reaping from all this human sacrifice and combat.

Well given the fact that they took time to mix the blood and anoint the armour and weapons during a ritual, I'd say it was indeed carefully executed, however misguided the act itself was.

I need to make a chaos GK army now just out of spite. I'll just say they were Knights that didn't have any sisters around to kill whenever the bloodtide happened.

Khorne was probably watching, and was very pleased to see the most pious/noble/pure of the Emperor's children bathing in blood of any sort.

Sigh @ Matt Ward.

Will be picking up Victories though, I'd like to read that whole story.

I can't wait for Ward's C:CSM. I hope to be reading how Abaddon bitchslapped Creed and burned Cadia to the ground and is now on his way to Terra.

BaronIveagh wrote:I can't wait for Ward's C:CSM. I hope to be reading how Abaddon bitchslapped Creed and burned Cadia to the ground and is now on his way to Terra.

But then who would we make fun of for failing again and again?

Kurgash wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I can't wait for Ward's C:CSM. I hope to be reading how Abaddon bitchslapped Creed and burned Cadia to the ground and is now on his way to Terra.

But then who would we make fun of for failing again and again?

Tycho. OH NOES; MAH FACE IZ BURND!

Fixing this is so simple. Replace the line "the first thing they did was to turn their blades..." to "the first thing they did was request the sisters to sacrifice themselves". It's literally one sentence that needs to change.

Sure it's still a little odd that they would need the blood on top of the Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, but it's easier to stomach. And can be explained as a move to advance the GK story and show they are indeed corruptible (to an extent).

asimo77 wrote:Fixing this is so simple. Replace the line "the first thing they did was to turn their blades..." to "the first thing they did was request the sisters to sacrifice themselves". It's literally one sentence that needs to change.

Sure it's still a little odd that they would need the blood on top of the Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, but it's easier to stomach. And can be explained as a move to advance the GK story and show they are indeed corruptible (to an extent).

It's really the same thing with the whole BA/Necron thing that everyone whines about.

The term "impromptu alliance" is used, when really if they'd just used the term "ad hoc alliance" it would have worked so much better.

If they would have left the "alliance" out entirely that would have helped.

I think the part in the BA/Necron story that needs to be fixed is the end. Rather than not fighting because it is dishonourable, Dante should have retreated because his forces were in no shape to fight.

AgnosticGod wrote:I know it isn't strictly stated (which is part of the problem) but who is to say all were slayed and the sisters didn't help willingly in the ritual? Also, being "Anointed" doesn't mean "bathed" a simple anointing can be a small dab on each piece of armor or a single small symbol on armor and weapon. That would not need a whole lot of blood.

While I agree the writing method used here can be interpreted many ways, automatically assuming they "slaughtered the whole lot of them" and "bathed in their blood" is a little extreme.

It says they "turned their blades upon the survivng sisters" not "they turned their blades against SOME of the surviving sisters"

kirsanth wrote:If they would have left the "alliance" out entirely that would have helped.

Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

Alliances can simply be groups served by a "common cause"--in this case, the extermination of the Tyranids.

Asimo77 wrote:I think the part in the BA/Necron story that needs to be fixed is the end. Rather than not fighting because it is dishonourable, Dante should have retreated because his forces were in no shape to fight.

Yeah, the end was a bit of an issue.

I bet if that man touches my precious Tau dex there will suddenly be tau psykers who are so strong the only thing that can stop them is Matt Ward's precious Ultrasmurfs

Lol, they'll have ethereals be psykers and suddenly now an average ethereal can stand up to three grandmasters at once in raw psychic power.

Kanluwen wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If they would have left the "alliance" out entirely that would have helped.

Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

Alliances can simply be groups served by a "common cause"--in this case, the extermination of the Tyranids.

Asimo77 wrote:I think the part in the BA/Necron story that needs to be fixed is the end. Rather than not fighting because it is dishonourable, Dante should have retreated because his forces were in no shape to fight.

Yeah, the end was a bit of an issue.

Common enemy (Non-Agression Pact) is different from alliance. Alliance implies co-operation from both sides, and alliance was clearly the word used.

Plus, what do Necrons have to fear from Nids? I means, Nids seek to consume all bio-matter, and Necrons don't really have bio matter...or souls (gingers).

And I bet that Gauss weapons are REALLY good against Nids (especially in fluff)

Yeah...no they won't.

Ethereals have been left untouched in Deathwatch.

Deathwatch's design team gets insight from the GW studio working on the codices. It's why we can expect the Daemon book to be pretty parallel to the GK book.

Melissia wrote:I need to make a chaos GK army now just out of spite. I'll just say they were Knights that didn't have any sisters around to kill whenever the bloodtide happened.

That's what I have been saying for awhile now. Previous fluff prevented this. New fluff almost embraces the possibility. They didn't need to kill the sisters before now they do?

asimo77 wrote:Fixing this is so simple. Replace the line "the first thing they did was to turn their blades..." to "the first thing they did was request the sisters to sacrifice themselves". It's literally one sentence that needs to change.

Sure it's still a little odd that they would need the blood on top of the Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, but it's easier to stomach. And can be explained as a move to advance the GK story and show they are indeed corruptible (to an extent).

But then we would have still had people saying there can be Chaos Grey Knights, which I am all for because nothing is uncorruptable, especially some dude in a set of armour. Still I could stomach that like you said and it would advance the Grey Knight story.

im2randomghgh wrote:

AgnosticGod wrote:I know it isn't strictly stated (which is part of the problem) but who is to say all were slayed and the sisters didn't help willingly in the ritual? Also, being "Anointed" doesn't mean "bathed" a simple anointing can be a small dab on each piece of armor or a single small symbol on armor and weapon. That would not need a whole lot of blood.

While I agree the writing method used here can be interpreted many ways, automatically assuming they "slaughtered the whole lot of them" and "bathed in their blood" is a little extreme.

It says they "turned their blades upon the survivng sisters" not "they turned their blades against SOME of the surviving sisters"

Exactly! And if they only needed to anoint their armour and not bathe it in blood, then why did they kill some many? Surely one Sister had enough blood in her to anoint to lot of them?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If they would have left the "alliance" out entirely that would have helped.

Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

Alliances can simply be groups served by a "common cause"--in this case, the extermination of the Tyranids.

Asimo77 wrote:I think the part in the BA/Necron story that needs to be fixed is the end. Rather than not fighting because it is dishonourable, Dante should have retreated because his forces were in no shape to fight.

Yeah, the end was a bit of an issue.

Common enemy (Non-Agression Pact) is different from alliance. Alliance implies co-operation from both sides, and alliance was clearly the word used.

Plus, what do Necrons have to fear from Nids? I means, Nids seek to consume all bio-matter, and Necrons don't really have bio matter...or souls (gingers).

And I bet that Gauss weapons are REALLY good against Nids (especially in fluff)

Who says the Necrons "feared" the Nids?

Necrons have slaughtered Tyranids before. This isn't exactly "new".

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If they would have left the "alliance" out entirely that would have helped.

Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

Alliances can simply be groups served by a "common cause"--in this case, the extermination of the Tyranids.

Asimo77 wrote:I think the part in the BA/Necron story that needs to be fixed is the end. Rather than not fighting because it is dishonourable, Dante should have retreated because his forces were in no shape to fight.

Yeah, the end was a bit of an issue.

Common enemy (Non-Agression Pact) is different from alliance. Alliance implies co-operation from both sides, and alliance was clearly the word used.

Plus, what do Necrons have to fear from Nids? I means, Nids seek to consume all bio-matter, and Necrons don't really have bio matter...or souls (gingers).

And I bet that Gauss weapons are REALLY good against Nids (especially in fluff)

Without fearing the Nids, they would not have had a reason for their alliance. \\\\common sense.
Who says the Necrons "feared" the Nids?

Necrons have slaughtered Tyranids before. This isn't exactly "new".

Lord Scythican wrote:

Melissia wrote:I need to make a chaos GK army now just out of spite. I'll just say they were Knights that didn't have any sisters around to kill whenever the bloodtide happened.

That's what I have been saying for awhile now. Previous fluff prevented this. New fluff almost embraces the possibility. They didn't need to kill the sisters before now they do?

Grey Knights could still be killed through sorcery in the old fluff. They could still be killed through Nurgle's plagues rotting their flesh, which means that a "warp plague" similar to the Bloodtide could feasibly kill them.

It doesn't mean they'd be "corrupted" in the spiritual sense, where they'd be devoting themselves to Khorne or any of the Chaos Powers(which we've actually seen with Sisters of Battle, since y'know...they're still human and their faith can falter)--it just means that their flesh can be corrupted.

asimo77 wrote:Fixing this is so simple. Replace the line "the first thing they did was to turn their blades..." to "the first thing they did was request the sisters to sacrifice themselves". It's literally one sentence that needs to change.

Sure it's still a little odd that they would need the blood on top of the Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, but it's easier to stomach. And can be explained as a move to advance the GK story and show they are indeed corruptible (to an extent).

But then we would have still had people saying there can be Chaos Grey Knights, which I am all for because nothing is uncorruptable, especially some dude in a set of armour. Still I could stomach that like you said and it would advance the Grey Knight story.

We had people saying that when it was explicitly stated that they can't be corrupted.

It has nothing to do with their armor. Their armor is a tool that helps prevent corruption and possession.
Them being immune to corruption has everything to do with their mindset and spiritual focus.
Their flesh may still be weak and subject to corruption, which is where the Aegis suits, the layered Hexagrammic Wards, and rituals like anointing their wargear in the blood of a pure believer and sacred oils(which they've actually always done, at least with the sacred oils) come in.

im2randomghgh wrote:

AgnosticGod wrote:I know it isn't strictly stated (which is part of the problem) but who is to say all were slayed and the sisters didn't help willingly in the ritual? Also, being "Anointed" doesn't mean "bathed" a simple anointing can be a small dab on each piece of armor or a single small symbol on armor and weapon. That would not need a whole lot of blood.

While I agree the writing method used here can be interpreted many ways, automatically assuming they "slaughtered the whole lot of them" and "bathed in their blood" is a little extreme.

It says they "turned their blades upon the survivng sisters" not "they turned their blades against SOME of the surviving sisters"

Exactly! And if they only needed to anoint their armour and not bathe it in blood, then why did they kill some many? Surely one Sister had enough blood in her to anoint to lot of them?

Because it's a ritual. Rituals usually require exacting elements, exacting focus, things of that nature.

It may simply have been that they needed the "surviving Sisters" to willingly sacrifice themselves so each one had their wargear anointed from a different "pure" individual--because the effect may have been diluted if they shared it.

Kanluwen wrote:Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

I do not think that is strictly true.

In an "impromptu alliance", it sure can be

The whole point of an alliance is that it's "prepared".

Impromptu means "done without preparation, or suddenly and hastily performed".

The two pretty much cancel each other out in terms of meaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by the by: look at the second definition.

"A relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities."

What better shared interest is there besides "Kill Tyranids!"?

Still just because they do it, doesn't make it right. Where would you draw the line? Where does it stop being for the greater good or for the sake of justification. If Matt Ward said that in order for a Grey Knight Paladin named XXXXXX to kill a Greater Demon, he had to kill 5000 infants and baptize his sword in a lake of their blood Excalibur style just so the blade would be powerful enough to kill the Greater demon, would it still be ok? If an army of Grey knights have to kill 2,000,000 survivors to be "holy" enough to kill a legion of World Eaters who just killed the same amount, would that be ok?

We are killing because it makes us pure enough to kill other people who don't have to be pure to kill.

And that's the hard fact of 40k.

Sometimes to save humanity, you have to lose your humanity.

Look at the Astartes, period as an example of this. They're unnerving to humans who are around them.
They're uncaring, for the most part, for the "whelps" they look after and defend.

Lord Scythican wrote:Still just because they do it, doesn't make it right. Where would you draw the line? Where does it stop being for the greater good or for the sake of justification. If Matt Ward said that in order for a Grey Knight Paladin named XXXXXX to kill a Greater Demon, he had to kill 5000 infants and baptize his sword in a lake of their blood Excalibur style just so the blade would be powerful enough to kill the Greater demon, would it still be ok? If an army of Grey knights have to kill 2,000,000 survivors to be "holy" enough to kill a legion of World Eaters who just killed the same amount, would that be ok?

We are killing because it makes us pure enough to kill other people who don't have to be pure to kill.

Who ever said it makes it right? You're kind of missing the hypocrisy of the Imperium if you think they try to do what's "right".

Fafnir wrote:

Once again, the issue is not that innocents are killed (for the greater good!), but how it is done. Had the sisters offered themselves as sacrifice (which fits perfectly with their fluff), it would have been (mostly) fine, but the codex implies that the Grey Knights just turned around and cut them down. Likewise, the Grey Knights needing protection against corruption kind of goes against established fluff that states that they are pure and uncorruptable. What with the sould binding and the hexagrammic wards and the Aegis and all 666 trials that ensure that these guys are proof against taint. Lastly, the whole 'rubbing up in blood' is kind of Chaotic sounding. Khorne would be delighted.

The simple point of the matter is that it is completely out of character in this situation.

Why bother to wait for the Sisters to offer themselves? First of all, if you read the rest of the codex, the Imperium at large has no knowledge of the GK's existence, the Sororitas are not included in that small figure of people who do know about them. So, the Sisters are unlikely to offer themselves up to sacrifice to a mysterious and unknown entity that suddenly appears on the planet, demanding a blood sacrifice so they can perform a sorcerous ritual to protect themselves from the blood-spawned daemons that are running rampant across the planet. In any case, the GK will most likely end up killing any surviving sisters in cold blood at the end of the day anyway, so why bother being nice now?

The codex can imply a lot of things, its not exactly clear as to the specific of the events, the who what when where why and how. You can take it at face value and moan about it til kingdom come, or you can read between the lines a bit (like you must with most GW works) and assume there is much more going on that isn't mentioned.

BTW, in regards to using a blood sacrifice for protection, you ever hear of Passover? Jews in Egypt slaughtered lambs and used its blood to mark their doorways so the angel of death wouldn't come and take their firstborn son. So I guess that makes Jews Khorne worshippers now does it? Nor does their need for protection go against established fluff. Anointed blood is no different than hexagrammic wards, Aegis, 666 trials, soul binding, etc. They are all the same, its another tool in the GK arsenal, the only difference is that its field applied as opposed to being 'standard issue.'

I mean, Blood Angels DRINK blood, are you going to say they are Khorne worshippers too?

Really, if they just changed it to the sisters offering their pure blood as a sacrifice to ensure the protection of the Knights, martyring themselves so that their blood may be used in a ritual to protect the Grey Knights and grant their weapons the strength to cut down M'kar, it would have been a lot better.

Whose to say that didn't happen? All it says is that the GK turned their blades against the sisters because they needed pure blood to defend themselves against corruption. Granted, I doubt thats what occurred (again, GK are unknown to most of the Imperium, military forces included, at most they are a myth/legend).

Take the meta perspective, the one Ward was supposed (heh) to have: either they can or they cannot. Previous fluff says: they can. What do I do? Change that? Ok, that might as well be a good idea, afterall it's grimdark. But how? Well you could have the nuns sacrifice themselves, you could have the GKs spend time in some cleansing ritual or you could have the way Ward chose. Which is bad.

In the previous fluff they could. In the current fluff they could. The difference is that the current fluff clarifies that they may at times require additional protections to what they already have as standard, whereas the older fluff was unclear about this.

So the problem is not "IF" they are immune to corruption or not, but "HOW" you depict your choice about that.

EXACTLY!!!

With Aegis suits taking hundreds of souls to create in order to protect a GK from chaos, it's just silliness that one more murder makes the difference of protection or corruption. Furthermore, if that one more ritual sacrifice really did make the difference, and Grey Knights really are all about doing everything possible for the greatest chance of success, why only this one time? Why don't Grey Knights take blood showers before every single battle as standard operating procedure.

Sure it's still a little odd that they would need the blood on top of the Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, but it's easier to stomach. And can be explained as a move to advance the GK story and show they are indeed corruptible (to an extent).

Let me use a real world analogy. The M1A2 Abrams main battle tank is the most well armored and best defended tank in the world (as of today). Its armor is impenetrable... to certain specific types of warheads/weapons. Other weapons have no trouble defeating it, despite the fact that its armor is 'impenetrable.' The weapons that do pose a threat to it are not common (at least they weren't not at the time of its design). To maintain the armors impenetrability, field modification is often conducted depending on the situation. Such as TUSK (Tank Urban Survival Kit), Composite armor, etc. etc. etc. The reason why the Abrams doesn't ship out with all this stuff as standard gear, is because the extra protection is very situational. To equip the Abrams with all this all the time is an additional cost, that comes with its own drawbacks: additional weight, additional space required for transport, reduced fuel efficiency, etc. etc. etc.

This is the same way the GK's purity likely works. They are incorruptible. Just they aren't always incorruptible against certain threats unless they prepare for it, but they are still incorruptible. Theres a bit of fluff somewhere (DH codex IIRC) about Grey Knights reciting litanies or something like that in battle to protect themselves against corruption. Why aren't you arguing that this violates the Grey Knight incorruptibility rule? Why would an incorruptible entity need to recite prayers to protect itself from corruption? Reciting prayers, etc. (in practice) is no different from applying blood as a warding tool. Its an extra layer of protection that has to be actively employed in order to function.

Wow, you just called that act 'carefully executed'... lol.

Who is to say it wasn't? Its a two paragraph summary of something that you could probably right a series of novels about.

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:Still just because they do it, doesn't make it right. Where would you draw the line? Where does it stop being for the greater good or for the sake of justification. If Matt Ward said that in order for a Grey Knight Paladin named XXXXXX to kill a Greater Demon, he had to kill 5000 infants and baptize his sword in a lake of their blood Excalibur style just so the blade would be powerful enough to kill the Greater demon, would it still be ok? If an army of Grey knights have to kill 2,000,000 survivors to be "holy" enough to kill a legion of World Eaters who just killed the same amount, would that be ok?

We are killing because it makes us pure enough to kill other people who don't have to be pure to kill.

Who ever said it makes it right? You're kind of missing the hypocrisy of the Imperium if you think they try to do what's "right".

Oh! I guess I did miss that part...when you put it that way I really can't complain.

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

I remember a few years ago, someone told me there really wasn't any good guys in Warhammer.

What exactly was the blood tide?

kirsanth wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Strictly speaking, an alliance can be done without either side ever really encountering or getting involved with each other.

I do not think that is strictly true.

In your own link it said: a state of being joined or associated. associated. that. was. my.point.

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

Also, they consider the Salamanders good, and the Tau. Tau.Tau.Tau.


I like Tau.Tau.

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

I knew there was a reason why I liked the Space Wolves.

im2randomghgh wrote: a state of being joined or associated. associated. that. was. my.point.

Read that last sentence again.

That's not strictly true. Sisters are also "good guys[sic]" of the Imperium (gw regularly describes them as "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"), but they don't have the plot armor space wolves have.

Fred Fred Burgur could remain pure...and banish any daemons ever. Cuz he`s epic. Very epic^. Google him.

Melissia wrote:That's not strictly true. Sisters are also "good guys[sic]" of the Imperium (gw regularly describes them as "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"), but they don't have the plot armor space wolves have.

I can't think of a single occasion when the Sisters had any Plot armour. They seem to get wiped out a lot in Fluff.

Also, i think my question got lost on the last page, so I'll repeat it here: What exactly was the Blood Tide?

Melissia wrote:That's not strictly true. Sisters are also "good guys[sic]" of the Imperium (gw regularly describes them as "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"), but they don't have the plot armor space wolves have.

You mean the same Sisters that have wiped out Imperial Guard forces for fear that they might have become corrupted with no evidence what so ever?

Sisters fluff gives examples of them doing questionable acts, too.

The GW thinking SWs are the Good Guys of 40K comes directly from GW via Jervis.

My friend is drunk alot does that make him a good guy?
Space wolves are good guys for drinking? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!

chaos0xomega wrote:
In the previous fluff they could. In the current fluff they could. The difference is that the current fluff clarifies that they may at times require additional protections to what they already have as standard, whereas the older fluff was unclear about this.

Afaik in the previous fluff they could NOT get corrupted, even if it took a lot of preparation in building the armour AND the man inside. The armor itself protects against the "material" influences of both warp and mundane damage (ie: death by corrosion, incineration, bullet penetration, slicing, rending, what have you). The FLESH of the man inside could be corrupted, in the meaning that it could rot, die, burn, melt and whatever, but the spirit of the man inside could not, however tempted and forced, and I stress COULD not (not "would", could) fall to the taint of chaos.

The blood tide itself seem to be a corruption of the spiritual kind, since touched people don't die or mutate violently, simply they turn against each other (or their former allies) in mindless slaughter. Against THIS kind of corruption GKs were deemed completely immune, to the point that their sole PRESENCE and psychic chanting would make such effects RECEDE.

The new fluff contradicts this. And I don't like this. But that's me... But even if I accepted the change itself, still the way it's been done makes no sense. The blood of one more innocent won't protect me anymore than the blood of the thousands that have been killed already to make the fething armour i'm wearing. Plus, I'm not going to just kill loyal and uncorrupted imperial forces until the daemonic threat is cleansed. AND, of all the factions you could choose Ward chose the SoB who would have WILLINGLY THROWN THEMSELVES ON THE BLADES OF THE GKs and still he made the GKs strike first and no questions asked.

Meh, it is simply put, bad.

Platuan4th wrote:You mean the same Sisters that have wiped out Imperial Guard forces for fear that they might have become corrupted with no evidence what so ever?

Never seen that happen (emphasis mine).

Melissia wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:You mean the same Sisters that have wiped out Imperial Guard forces for fear that they might have become corrupted with no evidence what so ever?

Never seen that happen (emphasis mine).

Dawn of War: Soulstorm for one. Cannoness Selena has the 252nd slaughtered because she suspects they are corrupted by the Warp Storm. No evidence is ever presented to support this belief beyond the Sister's suspicions and fanaticism. Because one Cannoness deemed it so, it was taken as fact by the Order.

They then go on to eliminate the Blood Ravens because they didn't cede command and authority to Selena.

Platuan4th wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:You mean the same Sisters that have wiped out Imperial Guard forces for fear that they might have become corrupted with no evidence what so ever?

Never seen that happen (emphasis mine).

Dawn of War: Soulstorm for one. Cannoness Selena has the 252nd slaughtered because she suspects they are corrupted by the Warp Storm. No evidence is ever presented to support this belief beyond the Sister's suspicions and fanaticism. Because one Cannoness deemed it so, it was taken as fact by the Order.

They then go on to eliminate the Blood Ravens because they didn't cede command and authority to Selena.

Dude you just mention a work of Relic entertainment?

You realise that the DOW games aren't actually 40K, right?

The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

Ascalam wrote:
The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

The fluff translates just fine. Hell, it translates better than many BL books(Inquisition War, Space Marine, anything by C.S. Goto).

What you're talking about is a GAME MECHANIC, not Fluff.

Soulstorm wasn't even written by Relic.

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

You left off how they now also went on to Exterminatus three other entire worlds just in case a storm trooper that saw something might have gotten away.

On Soulstorm: Not Canon. IIRC the canon ending was SoB were wiped out by either BR or Chaos, I forget.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

You left off how they now also went on to Exterminatus three other entire worlds just in case a storm trooper that saw something might have gotten away.

On Soulstorm: Not Canon. IIRC the canon ending was SoB were wiped out by either BR or Chaos, I forget.

Probably chaos since it's explicitly cited in DoW2 that that campaign was a failure and that captain boreale died there (he's the guy of the SPESS MUHREENS WE HAVE FEILD THE EMPRAH!, if you didn't know).

That doesn't mean that Chaos won.

Blood Ravens lost, that's all we know.

Melissia wrote:That doesn't mean that Chaos won.

Blood Ravens lost, that's all we know.

Indeed. He dies in all non-Ravens victory, IIRC.

Yep. And the mistake could very well be that the blood ravens didn't ally with the Imperial faction that won.

Platuan4th wrote:

Melissia wrote:That doesn't mean that Chaos won.

Blood Ravens lost, that's all we know.

Indeed. He dies in all non-Ravens victory, IIRC.

What. A. Shame. He's really a great character.






BVWwwaahahhahahahahhhahahhahahahahha yeah.

Anyway... yes doesn't make the chaos the winners, but it's not important: it's neither the SoB nor the BR.

Well in truth checking the opinion and the available data it's CERTAINLY not the BR and probably (though there's not any definite evidence) neither any other imperium force.

Platuan4th wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

The fluff translates just fine. Hell, it translates better than many BL books(Inquisition War, Space Marine, anything by C.S. Goto).

What you're talking about is a GAME MECHANIC, not Fluff.

that's because C.S. Goto is Matt Ward. The DoW fluff doesn't translate, and yes, we were talking about fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

The fluff translates just fine. Hell, it translates better than many BL books(Inquisition War, Space Marine, anything by C.S. Goto).

What you're talking about is a GAME MECHANIC, not Fluff.

that's because C.S. Goto is Matt Ward. The DoW fluff doesn't translate, and yes, we were talking about fluff.

Yeah...no, you have no bloody clue how "not C.S. Goto" that Matt Ward is.

While his stuff is over the top in some places, it's still relatively coherent and doesn't flatout 'break' the immutable Rules of 40k.

Goto didn't just break those rules. He stomped all over them, cackling the entire time.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

You left off how they now also went on to Exterminatus three other entire worlds just in case a storm trooper that saw something might have gotten away.

On Soulstorm: Not Canon. IIRC the canon ending was SoB were wiped out by either BR or Chaos, I forget.

C.S. Goto (Matt Ward) wrote the whole exterminatusx3 things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

The fluff translates just fine. Hell, it translates better than many BL books(Inquisition War, Space Marine, anything by C.S. Goto).

What you're talking about is a GAME MECHANIC, not Fluff.

that's because C.S. Goto is Matt Ward. The DoW fluff doesn't translate, and yes, we were talking about fluff.

Yeah...no, you have no bloody clue how "not C.S. Goto" that Matt Ward is.

While his stuff is over the top in some places, it's still relatively coherent and doesn't flatout 'break' the immutable Rules of 40k.

Goto didn't just break those rules. He stomped all over them, cackling the entire time.

C.S. Goto is Matt Ward. The reason the stuff published under Matt Ward is tamer than that published by Goto is that ward usually writes for dexes, which are more closely screened. As Goto, he is less likely to be attacked since it's 99.9% sure that they're the same, with some doubt. If that makes sense...

Hmm... CS Goto is Matt Ward? That doesn't make any sense! Next thing you'll tell me is that Clark Kent is Superman! And Superman doesn't even WEAR glasses!

BaronIveagh wrote:Hmm... CS Goto is Matt Ward? That doesn't make any sense! Next thing you'll tell me is that Clark Kent is Superman! And Superman doesn't even WEAR glasses!

Thank you for making my day

BaronIveagh wrote:Hmm... CS Goto is Matt Ward? That doesn't make any sense! Next thing you'll tell me is that Clark Kent is Superman! And Superman doesn't even WEAR glasses!

Lol!

Sisters have and will kill innocents. They have no problem with that. They are devoted to the Emperor and will do whatever is necessary. The Witchhunter Codex points to this many times (Explicitly in the Witch Hunter Narrative on pages 42-43).

IoM is evil and all their agents are evil (based on popular current 21st century western morality). I am fine with the grim darkness and the role sisters have in it.

But, the piece of fluff that states that the GK kill the sisters to be extra sure that they have the right protection just runs counter to the earlier fluff. Like I stated earlier, if blood and oils are what they always need, why don't they do that before each battle, just it case. Be consistent!

I'd like to throw in that the field adaptibilty counter to your point AdeptSister doesn't really fly, since GK pretty much exclusively fight daemons. It's not like they don't know what to expect. And people as fanatical as GK wouldn't leave things to chance anyway.

AdeptSister wrote:Sisters have and will kill innocents. They have no problem with that. They are devoted to the Emperor and will do whatever is necessary. The Witchhunter Codex points to this many times (Explicitly in the Witch Hunter Narrative on pages 42-43).

IoM is evil and all their agents are evil (based on popular current 21st century western morality). I am fine with the grim darkness and the role sisters have in it.

But, the piece of fluff that states that the GK kill the sisters to be extra sure that they have the right protection just runs counter to the earlier fluff. Like I stated earlier, if blood and oils are what they always need, why don't they do that before each battle, just it case. Be consistent!

IoM isn't evil...it is just highly immoral and does what it needs to to survive...

Evil----IoM----Good.

in the middle.

I just would like to say I personally like the fluff especially the liberal use of Exterminatus. It makes it makes it more of a grim dark universe for me. You dont see many "good guys" (what ever that means in 40k lol) make tough decisions like that in other works of fiction. The one thing I dont like is that draigo lives in the warp. I dont see how thats possible if 1 demon bested him how can he live in the warp. And I dont think his stat line or abilities reflect some one who survives in the warp killing thousands upon thousands of demons.

Ascalam wrote:You realise that the DOW games aren't actually 40K, right?

The fluff doesn't translate over, otherwise ork Waaagh banners would require 4 nobs to carry, being platforms with big painted plank on them

The general gameplay mechanics need to be done to ensure it plays how the game should. Like the tabletop game. The fluff is all approved by GW, and it's a very lengthy process at that. Whatever ends up as story and fluff in a Dawn of War game is as official as anything from the Black Library.

so not particularly then

Kidding..

'IoM isn't evil...it is just highly immoral and does what it needs to to survive...

Evil----IoM----Good.

in the middle. '

It is hightly immoral- immoral = evil

It is probably the most evil race out there in my view, given what they do tot heir own citizens, day in and day out, quite aside from the other races. Especially since they do it in the name of religion, and seem to strive hard to be extra crappy to anyone who might improve their lot. The whole culture is riddled with wanton cruelty and disinterested callousness. Yes, they do what they do to survive, but so do the Hive Fleets

Amoral is neutral Tyranids are Amoral. They just want to eat you

<comment removed>

Ascalam wrote:so not particularly then

Pretty sure the Horus Heresy is considered official fluff.

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop. Oh, I know, maybe you should all get hired and replace all the staff in the studio and Black Library. Get a life.

I'd have to agree

starhawks1 wrote:

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop. Oh, I know, maybe you should all get hired and replace all the staff in the studio and Black Library. Get a life.

I'd have to agree

I would too...

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop.

Your attempt to troll is made of fail.

Point of fact, most of the people that created it don't work there anymore. It's now run by businessmen who just want to 'service the account'.

and another thing to keep in mind is it's a fictional universe, so no one can claim that something can't happen, and if you don't like it, too bad for you...but it's just a game

'Pretty sure the Horus Heresy is considered official fluff. '

I did put 'Kidding..' there too, you know. Odd how that missed the quote

You have to admit, however, that Black Library has been known to contradict itself, or established fluff from the codecii and main book

BaronIveagh wrote:

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop.

Your attempt to troll is made of fail.

Point of fact, most of the people that created it don't work there anymore. It's now run by businessmen who just want to 'service the account'.

Well seeing as it was created back in the 80's, I was wrong about them still being there. However, the people there now have creative license over the fictional universe so what they write actually holds about as much merit as the original creators. I win.

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop. Oh, I know, maybe you should all get hired and replace all the staff in the studio and Black Library. Get a life.

And suddenly this topic got really heavy...

dood you got pwwwwwwnd


We don't need comments like this. Thanks.

asimo77 wrote:

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:Hey all you fat nerd pieces of gak. I didn't know that you all knew more about the Warhammer 40k universe and all that it encompasses than the men who created it and actually work at Games Workshop. Oh, I know, maybe you should all get hired and replace all the staff in the studio and Black Library. Get a life.

And suddenly this topic got really heavy...

Ha wow yeah....

Might be due to Mongo the wonder dog, there..

Anyhow, ignoring captain pointless, how about an opinion on which races are actuallt evil. This is Grimdark, so no race is all the way good, but some are definitly more evil than others, by contemporary standards of morality.

Necrons- pretty much the epitome of ruthless, soulless evil
Tyranids- Just hungry imo, but defiinitely uncaring.
Tau- hard to tell. They pretend to be good, but are into exterminating those who won't join and mind control.
Orks- Wantonly destructive, but less malicious than most..

doodyougotpwwwnd wrote:
Well seeing as it was created back in the 80's, I was wrong about them still being there. However, the people there now have creative license over the fictional universe so what they write actually holds about as much merit as the original creators. I win.

So you're suggesting that CS Goto has as much merit as, say, Dan Abnett?

And, point of fact, the people that own it aren't writing it, they're passing off the duty on anyone they can hire for what they pay. I mean, hell, if guys like Horizon and me can get our names into official 40k product...

Ascalam wrote: Necrons- pretty much the epitome of ruthless, soulless evil

woah woah, gona have to disagree with you there. Simply, necrons are above morality.

If that's how you want to see them, that's cool too. My opinion is just that, an opinion

I like them evil. I've always had a thing for the bad guys in horror movies

haroon wrote:Simply, necrons are above morality.

There's no such thing, only people who believe they're above morality.

I'm kinda bothered by something but I might be out of line for it. It said that several sisters were corrupted and turned upon contact with the blood tide, isn't this also very rare? Weren't there only two sisters to have turned to date? Yet, we've taken the amount of them and multiplied it in a single battle? o_O Alternatively, I realize the sisters will be getting a new dex in the next year or two so perhaps this is a preview of some of the fluff in that dex?

Correct me, please?

Well (accepting that the fluff is here to stay) from what I read in the codex the Bloodtide was a significantly powerful daemonic effect, and in the end the Sisters are still only human. It actually says more about the Sisters that the rest of them were able to avoid corruption to fight through it, since it's so powerful even the grey knights needed further buffering to make 100% sure they don't turn.

"Needing a talisman of purity to protect agenst the bloodtide's taint, the grey knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle." PG15

WTF!!!!!!!

Yep. The sisters that resisted the bloodtide aka the sisters who where more resilient than Grey Knights are, apparantly.

Luco: Sisters have turned before so I am not surprised. They are pure, but things happen and they can fall to chaos like other humans. They are more resistant, but it happens.

I don't think of Orks as evil. I think of them as a force of nature, like Tyranids.

solles wrote:Well (accepting that the fluff is here to stay) from what I read in the codex the Bloodtide was a significantly powerful daemonic effect, and in the end the Sisters are still only human. It actually says more about the Sisters that the rest of them were able to avoid corruption to fight through it, since it's so powerful even the grey knights needed further buffering to make 100% sure they don't turn.

So now the new fluff gives in to the possibility of Chaos Grey Knights? This was something that wasn't even considered a month ago, (except by people who forced the issue despite the fluff).

I can see it now. Blood Tide II and no Sisters of Battle. The Grey Knights brave the tide anyways and fall to chaos. Of course couldn't they just pick some random Grey Knight in their group, kill him, and make a blood bath out of him?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdeptSister wrote:

I don't think of Orks as evil. I think of them as a force of nature, like Tyranids.

Yeah I started thinking about that as well. They don't seem anymore evil than Conan the Barbarian. They like to fight and want to turn the Universe into one Big Fight Club. If the Imperium of Man was smart, they would set up some sort of intergalactic Fighting Competition and let the Orks fight each other to determine who participates in the event.

The Running Ork!

Only a single sister has actually willingly turned to Chaos and that is Mirial Sabathial.

There have been Sisters who have been corrupted by the influence of Chaos, but that's different from actually embracing chaos.

AdeptSister wrote:Sisters have and will kill innocents. They have no problem with that. They are devoted to the Emperor and will do whatever is necessary. The Witchhunter Codex points to this many times (Explicitly in the Witch Hunter Narrative on pages 42-43).

None of which have the Sisters kill innocents?

Ascalam wrote:Might be due to Mongo the wonder dog, there..

Anyhow, ignoring captain pointless, how about an opinion on which races are actuallt evil. This is Grimdark, so no race is all the way good, but some are definitly more evil than others, by contemporary standards of morality.

Necrons- pretty much the epitome of ruthless, soulless evil
Tyranids- Just hungry imo, but defiinitely uncaring.
Tau- hard to tell. They pretend to be good, but are into exterminating those who won't join and mind control.
Orks- Wantonly destructive, but less malicious than most..

I don't think the Tyranids are "uncaring", for two reasons;

1) They are being mind controlled by a.... entity of some sort (Hive Mind). I say they are being mind controlled because of Synapses, if they break free they revert back to bestial behavior.

2) They are, as you said, just hungry. A dog isn't uncaring if it eats something; it's just hungry, and it needs food.

Disclaimer: Have to say when I read the whole "Bloodtide" incident I did think "WTF, you can't be serious?!"

Having said that on further consideration I think that what Mr Ward is trying to do in that whole section is provide a reason for why you might see each army facing GK on the table top (I think he covers every different race and faction in that battle list).

Now I'm not saying it's a particularly good reason, but then it's quite hard to suggest a reason why SoB and GK would be blowing each other to hell...

...The old book had exactly the same kind of list, with the same problems. Half of the entries were a variant of "and they found a chaos relic, which is bad..."

Edit for poor spelling

Lord Scythican wrote:

solles wrote:Well (accepting that the fluff is here to stay) from what I read in the codex the Bloodtide was a significantly powerful daemonic effect, and in the end the Sisters are still only human. It actually says more about the Sisters that the rest of them were able to avoid corruption to fight through it, since it's so powerful even the grey knights needed further buffering to make 100% sure they don't turn.

So now the new fluff gives in to the possibility of Chaos Grey Knights? This was something that wasn't even considered a month ago, (except by people who forced the issue despite the fluff).

No actually, it doesn't.
The Bloodtide could, in all likelihood, simply have killed them outright or driven them mad. You know "physical" effects, not "spiritual".
Daemonic effects do not simply do one thing and if you resist it you're free of everything.

I can see it now. Blood Tide II and no Sisters of Battle. The Grey Knights brave the tide anyways and fall to chaos. Of course couldn't they just pick some random Grey Knight in their group, kill him, and make a blood bath out of him?

Stop using the term "blood bath". It's stupid and completely not consistent with the events described. These kinds of overexaggerations are what lead to threads like this in the first place, and the kind of stupidity we've seen arising from the whines about Draigo's exploits within the Warp(which, I might add are explicitly labeled as a 'legend').

A ritual anointing is not a "blood bath". It's nowhere near a "blood bath". If a ritual anointing is a "bath" then every time you receive communion and are blessed, you're in fact "bathed".

Cannibal wrote:Yep. The sisters that resisted the Bloodtide aka the sisters who were more resilient than Grey Knights are, apparently.

Somehow I doubt they were wading into the very source of the Bloodtide and the Daemon generating it.

Think of daemonic effects like a contagion.
The further out you are from the effects, the weaker the effect becomes.
The Sisters who resisted it may have been further out from 'ground zero' of the effect, and been able to resist it because of that factor.

Pure sisters vs Grey knights (shudent be abel to fall from the path of the Emperor), shud never ever fight fluffvise, not whit guns and shells atleast. Just that they made up fluff like that makes no sence and it shud be conned instantly=(

Moderator Frazzled warning to all posters herein. Warnings have been given. All posters are to remember Dakka Rule #1: Be Polite.

Unless they are only using a handful of of sisters for the ritual then it is a blood bath. They turned their blades on quite a few sisters. Trying sticking your sword into 50 nuns and see if the room isn't covered in a blood bath. Seriously if it happened the way it was described, the entire room's floor would be covered in blood. I guess for your ritual they could have put their finger in the 4 inch deep blood covered floor and anointed a cross on each Grey Knights forehead. Still a blood bath.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
No actually, it doesn't.
The Bloodtide could, in all likelihood, simply have killed them outright or driven them mad. You know "physical" effects, not "spiritual".
Daemonic effects do not simply do one thing and if you resist it you're free of everything.

You are assuming just as much as I am. I only said the possibility. You are saying another possibility. Unless the fluff said specifically that the corruption would have resulted in corrupted flesh and not spirit, then I am just as right as you are.

From what I understand it wouldn't have been a "blood bath". You're assuming there's more blood within a person (an average person has about 8L of blood) or that they were riddled with wounds. A single, clean wound even to multiple people wouldn't provide a four inch deep blood covered floor.

SilverMK2 wrote:From what I understand it wouldn't have been a "blood bath". You're assuming there's more blood within a person (an average person has about 8L of blood) or that they were riddled with wounds. A single, clean wound even to multiple people wouldn't provide a four inch deep blood covered floor.

How many were killed? If we are talking four, then I agree. 50? That's pushing it, even with single wounds to each person. Honestly they could have slaughtered a 1000 and people would still defend it.

Lord Scythican wrote:How many were killed? If we are talking four, then I agree. 50? That's pushing it, even with single wounds to each person. Honestly they could have slaughtered a 1000 and people would still defend it.

Going from what has been quoted in this thread, vis:

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

It can be argued that they simply cut the SoB, similar to ritual scaring and blooding ceremonies, rather than ran them through with their swords...

SilverMK2 wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:How many were killed? If we are talking four, then I agree. 50? That's pushing it, even with single wounds to each person. Honestly they could have slaughtered a 1000 and people would still defend it.

Going from what has been quoted in this thread, vis:

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart.

It can be argued that they simply cut the SoB, similar to ritual scaring and blooding ceremonies, rather than ran them through with their swords...

If that is it, then the surviving sisters could be 2+.

Two isn't bad. If that is all it says then you could simply say it was just a few and no big deal. Is there any other info before this excerpt? If it really doesn't go into how many were cut down, then my argument does fall apart.

As for your other argument, that makes sense as well. The Grey knights may have pierced their index fingers with the tips of their swords to draw only a little blood for the ritual.


Of course they were probably all killed afterwards to protect the secret of the daemon infestation, but that is another matter entirely.

Slarg232 wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Might be due to Mongo the wonder dog, there..

Anyhow, ignoring captain pointless, how about an opinion on which races are actuallt evil. This is Grimdark, so no race is all the way good, but some are definitly more evil than others, by contemporary standards of morality.

Necrons- pretty much the epitome of ruthless, soulless evil
Tyranids- Just hungry imo, but defiinitely uncaring.
Tau- hard to tell. They pretend to be good, but are into exterminating those who won't join and mind control.
Orks- Wantonly destructive, but less malicious than most..

I don't think the Tyranids are "uncaring", for two reasons;

1) They are being mind controlled by a.... entity of some sort (Hive Mind). I say they are being mind controlled because of Synapses, if they break free they revert back to bestial behavior.

2) They are, as you said, just hungry. A dog isn't uncaring if it eats something; it's just hungry, and it needs food.

I think uncaring is a fine word to use to describe them, emotionless too. The principal behind either is that Tyranids don't have a malicious motive like Chaos does. They don't actually want to destroy the IoM, they just have a primal desire to feed, an unsatisfiable hunger, and the IoM is their primary food source. They most likely evolved from some locust like organism, that requires huge amounts of energy to continue it's reproductive cycle to ensure the survival of the species. They really don't have any human emotions to inhibit them, not even satisfaction or any good emotion when they achieve their goal to feed. They have no negative ones either, so no anger or frustration if they are prevented from feeding, they just gather another fleet, try again. They have an element of learning though, not sentient, just a state of hyper evolution, not affected by emotions or prejudice.

Both reasons are right but I disagree with the wording maybe.

1) The Tyranid race isn't 'mind controlled' by the Hive Mind, the Tyanids ARE the Hive Mind, much like ants. Their total consciousness exists in every Tyranid, creating a network that has achieved some sort of collective sentient thought process, all devoted towards feeding the species. This Network is stronger in Tyranid organisms with more highly evolved brains, with an element of free thinking allows them to 'control' the smaller and less intelligent of the species. Obviously to have a race numbering in the billions all highly intelligent and created to be able to fight any enemy would be very un-economical for the Tyranids, hence why the smaller 'cheaper' ones ares stupid, and only a few have the Hive Minds presence within them to control them via the use of psychic. It's difficult to explain but these are just my thoughts. I guess the Swarm Lord would be the Hive Mind embodied, hence why it's supposed to be the ultimate general. They don't 'break free' either, their control is lost in the death of the higher organisms, hence they revert to pre-programmed animalistic instincts, like a back up, so if a higher organism returns in range, they can control them again, so vital energy is not wasted.

2) I completely disagree, if you give a dog food, it will care that you are giving it food. It may not be appreciative towards you in any way, but it knows you are its owner and providing it with sustenance. Tyranids arrive, subdue the populace if any exist, digest all organic material and move on. They, unlike a dog, doesn't care that there may have been organisms aware of their fate on the planet, it now has food, move on for more. A dog will not move on once you give it food, it becomes attached to you. Now, you could argue that it only stays because you give it sustenance but dogs really do become emotionally attached, sad if you die, happy when you return, concerned if you're sick.

You know, as much as he couched it in an insulting, trolling manner, Doody's got a point.

This is a fictional 'verse. There's online communities. If you don't like the fluff, FANFICTION! Why should /tg/ be the only place to make things like Tankred and the Angry Marines?

There's Fandexes in the making, there's people that can, and do write fun fluff for 40k...

And I'm pretty sure that, as long as you buy their models, GW doesn't care much about what rules you use to play with them. Sure, 'official, GW sanctioned' tourneys would need to be played with GW rules, but that doesn't stop you from running or playing NON official, GW sanctioned tourneys and games.


If you don't like the fluff, don't like the rules, write your own! Share it, modify it, heck, maybe you might get enough experience to make your own game, eventually.

SilverMK2 wrote:From what I understand it wouldn't have been a "blood bath". You're assuming there's more blood within a person (an average person has about 8L of blood) or that they were riddled with wounds. A single, clean wound even to multiple people wouldn't provide a four inch deep blood covered floor.

I take it youve never seen anyone with an arterial break.

AdeptusAssfartes wrote:I take it youve never seen anyone with an arterial break.

I have actually. However, you need a lot of 8L's before you get a 4 inch deep pool covering the floor (and that is assuming they bleed out almost completely before their heart stops)

SilverMK2 wrote:

I have actually. However, you need a lot of 8L's before you get a 4 inch deep pool covering the floor (and that is assuming they bleed out almost completely before their heart stops)

Well, im not saying one person would put down 4 inches. But when a main artery is severed, the amount of blood that sprays out is almost unbelievable. Get three or so people in a small enough room and you can bet youll be splashing around a little. People tend to underestimate just how much blood 8L actually is, until you see it fly out of someones femoral or jugular, trust me.

Makes sense to me. The GKs are kind of blood thirsty, what with all the exterminating planets and such.

Lord Scythican wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:From what I understand it wouldn't have been a "blood bath". You're assuming there's more blood within a person (an average person has about 8L of blood) or that they were riddled with wounds. A single, clean wound even to multiple people wouldn't provide a four inch deep blood covered floor.

How many were killed? If we are talking four, then I agree. 50? That's pushing it, even with single wounds to each person. Honestly they could have slaughtered a 1000 and people would still defend it.

We aren't told how many the Sisters were.

Sille wrote:Pure sisters vs Grey knights (shudent be abel to fall from the path of the Emperor), shud never ever fight fluffvise, not whit guns and shells atleast. Just that they made up fluff like that makes no sence and it shud be conned instantly=(

To be fair, in "Grey Knights:

I was kinda lost on the codex thing after Dark "Ill swallow you soul no matter what" Eldar. Then there is the whole 10 space marines can conquer a planet thing. Then you have the IG guy who had half his body eaten and replaced by metal, but its cool. Then the green space marines who will kill anyone if they think that stupid secret will get out. Even though I buy and read every book they put out, GW has gone from jump the shark to absurd. I dont see the logic in slaughtering futuristic nuns to save the planet the nuns are defending. Especially since the entire planet may get smoked anyway if anybody happens to see a grey space marine and then figure out they are super phychers marines

SilverMK2 wrote:

AdeptusAssfartes wrote:I take it youve never seen anyone with an arterial break.

I have actually. However, you need a lot of 8L's before you get a 4 inch deep pool covering the floor (and that is assuming they bleed out almost completely before their heart stops)

Now don't go an get obsessed with the 4 inch thing. It was an arbitrary number. A centimeter deep of flood would still be a lot. Maybe I have been watching Dexter too much. That cargo container was about 3 inches deep and that was from 3 people.

Regardless I concede, because I don't know how many sisters were slaughter. If you cut the throat of 50 sisters in a room, that would be quite a bit. If you cut two, then not so much. Besides turning their blades on them could mean anything from a prick to decapitation. I am unable to continue with the Blood Bath description because of a lack of relevant info.

I dont think it makes much sence that the GK would kill any sister who is pure, and i though grey knight where never used in mass beside to help whit the defence of cadia. i though Gk where usally used in small squads to take on demons most normal space marine chapters cant handle or would suffer to many casualties from challenge it. in short GK go in kill the thougest demons then teleport out and let a "normal" chapter liberate the rest of the planet, or am i totally wrong?

I think all this ambiguity is pretty good evidence that Matt Ward is not very good writer. Even if we can finally justify the Blood Tide scenario, as it stands I think it's poorly written either way.

Somehow, I don't think of them pricking their fingers when they 'turn their swords on' someone.

Most of the time it's used in terms of a surprise massacre, such as when Henry V's men 'turned their swords' on French Prisoners after Agincourt.

BaronIveagh wrote:Somehow, I don't think of them pricking their fingers when they 'turn their swords on' someone.

Most of the time it's used in terms of a surprise massacre, such as when Henry V's men 'turned their swords' on French Prisoners after Agincourt.

Now don't go there. You are going to get me started again!

'People tend to underestimate just how much blood 8L actually is, until you see it fly out of someones femoral or jugular, trust me.'

Too true

Here's the measurement in terms easier to understand.

An average person's body contains blood roughly equal to a case of beer.

Drop a few cases of beer :0) (waste of good beer, but that's why this example is appropriate )

Suds and liquid everywhere, and a pain to clean up. It gets everywhere, spreads way further than the point of impact and splatters everything.

Sille wrote:Pure sisters vs Grey knights (shudent be abel to fall from the path of the Emperor), shud never ever fight fluffvise, not whit guns and shells atleast. Just that they made up fluff like that makes no sence and it shud be conned instantly=(

Not true, happens in the 1st book from the grey knights trilogy when sisters are lead astray by a corrupted inquisitor. BOth sides notice the other guys chanting praises to the emperor and join together.

That said, I hope the OP story is an april's fools.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Basically they are doing what they have to do right?

Basically. The Imperium does what it does, regardless of the means to get it done.

The only ones that GW consider "good guys" are the Space Wolves, because they actually care about the civilians and what's "right". Case in point: After Armageddon I, Logan Grimnar condemned the Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole because they sterilized, enslaved, and replaced the entire population due to it being a daemonic invasion.

You left off how they now also went on to Exterminatus three other entire worlds just in case a storm trooper that saw something might have gotten away.

This is not new, or a corruption of 40k fluff, or whatever. Summarily executing Guard regiments who fought against chaos and mindiwiping Marines has been around for quite a while.

Somewhere in the Fluff Bible PDF that floats around there's a case of an Inquisitor sanctioning exterminatus because the planet's governor had heterochromia.

The Inquisition are not and never have been the good guys. They do a lot of repugnant fethed up gak.

In the old fluff, the Grey Knights didn't wipe other Marines unless under extreme situations that called for it. There were plenty of chapters that had long-standing allegiances with the Ordo Malleus, with various oaths and honours actually recorded by their Librarians. Likewise, other Imperials were only executed if there was the possibility of daemonic taint.
The Grey Knights and Inquisition were always a secretive bunch, but not Dark Angels stupid secret.

Alkasyn wrote:

Sille wrote:Pure sisters vs Grey knights (shudent be abel to fall from the path of the Emperor), shud never ever fight fluffvise, not whit guns and shells atleast. Just that they made up fluff like that makes no sence and it shud be conned instantly=(

Not true, happens in the 1st book from the grey knights trilogy when sisters are lead astray by a corrupted inquisitor. BOth sides notice the other guys chanting praises to the emperor and join together.

That said, I hope the OP story is an april's fools.

but where the Gk also lead astray?, i know sisters have been corrupted but i dont think Gk have ever become corrput?i can be wrong though. thats what i meant=P

Ascalam wrote:so not particularly then

Kidding..

'IoM isn't evil...it is just highly immoral and does what it needs to to survive...

Evil----IoM----Good.

in the middle. '

It is hightly immoral- immoral = evil

It is probably the most evil race out there in my view, given what they do tot heir own citizens, day in and day out, quite aside from the other races. Especially since they do it in the name of religion, and seem to strive hard to be extra crappy to anyone who might improve their lot. The whole culture is riddled with wanton cruelty and disinterested callousness. Yes, they do what they do to survive, but so do the Hive Fleets

Amoral is neutral Tyranids are Amoral. They just want to eat you

The Imperium is amoral too, as they just want to survive. The exterminatus is like amputating a digit that has a virulent disease. If you had a tumor, would you have it excised? probably.

Um, no.

I can see an exterminatus as a clinical amputation, even though it's sometimes called on worlds that probably just need a bandaid, not a limb-lopping.

Look at the culture of the body as a whole though. If that's what the Big E intended, he was one sick puppy ;0)

Exterminating 1 planet is usally not even noticeble in the grand schemes of the Imperium, aswell as liberating the planet or fighting(cleansing) the heretics can claim more lifes than just doing a exterminatus. and if its a really important planet they will just do a massive invasion to take it back.
The Emperor dident intend on making the Imperium into what it is 2day(most likly), his action was that of a leader that wanted to create a Imperium where humans could be safe from xenos and have their eyes open to the Imperial truth, that is there is no gods no holy stuff and yada yada you know what i mean=),

buuuut there is a possebility that he did know this was gonna happen and directed the Imperium to this.

Sille wrote:Exterminating 1 planet is usally not even noticeble in the grand schemes of the Imperium, aswell as liberating the planet or fighting(cleansing) the heretics can claim more lifes than just doing a exterminatus. and if its a really important planet they will just do a massive invasion to take it back.
The Emperor dident intend on making the Imperium into what it is 2day(most likly), his action was that of a leader that wanted to create a Imperium where humans could be safe from xenos and have their eyes open to the Imperial truth, that is there is no gods no holy stuff and yada yada you know what i mean=),

buuuut there is a possebility that he did know this was gonna happen and directed the Imperium to this.

He envisioned a utopian society, not the dystopia that is the modern Imperium.

Also, if Magnus hadn't fethed with the Emprah's Webway gate, the emperor wouldn't be permanently indisposed of...keeping the chaos gods out of the material universe. If he wasn't so busy doing that, he would probably be able to heal himself and destroy the chaos gods and kill every not IoM and just be a chuck norris/ charlie sheen hybrid. Pretty much the stuff Matt Ward makes everything he touches able to do...flying libby dreanoughts...shameful...

I'm totally going to use this to trash talk all of the GK players that will show up at the FLGS. My Guard will discipline these heretics.

Melissia wrote:

AdeptSister wrote:Sisters have and will kill innocents. They have no problem with that. They are devoted to the Emperor and will do whatever is necessary. The Witchhunter Codex points to this many times (Explicitly in the Witch Hunter Narrative on pages 42-43).

None of which have the Sisters kill innocents?

Look at the IG Hooks. They have no issue killing unwitting pawns or victors that may have been corrupted by chaos (even if there is no proof). The are fanatics that will not take the chance and will blindly follow the orders of their holy masters. As the Daughters of the Emperor, they fought against IoM because they were decieved by a man they thought was a faithful prophet of the Emperor. Blindness and mindless devotion is encouraged. In the course of their duties, if ordered, they will kill the innocent for 'Innocence proves nothing!'

They are the best of Humanity. Unfortunately, in 40k that means crazy fanatical xenophobes that will kill you for your lack of devotion.

'They are the best of Humanity. Unfortunately, in 40k that means crazy fanatical xenophobes that will kill you for your lack of devotion. '

so, basically, evil claiming to be good, and killing you 'for your own good/to save your soul'

Dear god,'s,-ess save me from your fan club

Ascalam wrote:Might be due to Mongo the wonder dog, there..

Anyhow, ignoring captain pointless, how about an opinion on which races are actuallt evil. This is Grimdark, so no race is all the way good, but some are definitly more evil than others, by contemporary standards of morality.

Necrons- pretty much the epitome of ruthless, soulless evil
Tyranids- Just hungry imo, but defiinitely uncaring.
Tau- hard to tell. They pretend to be good, but are into exterminating those who won't join and mind control.
Orks- Wantonly destructive, but less malicious than most..

Tau aren't evil. They are just expanding. They need to expand to survive. And they save alot of races and advance alot of races by bringing them into the empire. They don't cause suffering for fun. They are the most "good" race in 40k

Bear in mind that the choice they offer is 'join or die' and that one of their principle allies are thralled by tech helmets to serve the tau, regardless of their wishes.

Sounds a bit dubious, morally, to me

A wish to survive doesn't make you non evil

The tau are the least outwardly malicious race in 40K, debatably. Compared to the IImperium or the Necrons they're paragons of shiny light, but given the setting...

And heck, for as far as we know the sisters willingly gave up their lives in service of the Emperor. "Hey, we need your sacrifice so we may prevail against this,,..etc etc." I don't see the sisters resisting in such an instance, and let themselves be killed by the Grey Knights. You really can infer a lot from that single phrase if you want, or not.

Long ago they made it clear. There really isn't good in grimdark. The eldar were somewhat of a shining light for awhile, but they made sure they quashed that.

Orks are da most non-evillest race. Dey's just in it fur da fun'a krumpin's all. If doze uvva races got dere akts tegevva an got big an' green like da Ork, dey'd be 'avvin a good tim 'o it too.

You know, it occures to me that this is just a form of Codex Creep. Sixth Edition we'll have flying landraiders that fire Vortex Missiles.

and one shot missiles will mean once a round...

I'm feeling old.

*ancient voice*

'When i was a lad we would have to walk 10 miles, uphill, in the snow to get a vortex missile, and 10 miles back, uphill...'

The problem with saying "well it doesn't actualy say if the sisters resisted or submitted, so they could have submitted" is just that. It doesn't say the sisters submitted, nor does it give even the faintest hint that they may have. The phrase "Turned their blades against" implies aggression. To say that the story never implicitly states the sisters where attacked is like saying the story never rules out the possibility of the bloodtide being caused by Orks. I'm going to assume the Orks where uninvolved because I know how the Orks operate.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sille wrote:Exterminating 1 planet is usally not even noticeble in the grand schemes of the Imperium, aswell as liberating the planet or fighting(cleansing) the heretics can claim more lifes than just doing a exterminatus. and if its a really important planet they will just do a massive invasion to take it back.
The Emperor dident intend on making the Imperium into what it is 2day(most likly), his action was that of a leader that wanted to create a Imperium where humans could be safe from xenos and have their eyes open to the Imperial truth, that is there is no gods no holy stuff and yada yada you know what i mean=),

buuuut there is a possebility that he did know this was gonna happen and directed the Imperium to this.

He envisioned a utopian society, not the dystopia that is the modern Imperium.

Also, if Magnus hadn't fethed with the Emprah's Webway gate, the emperor wouldn't be permanently indisposed of...keeping the chaos gods out of the material universe. If he wasn't so busy doing that, he would probably be able to heal himself and destroy the chaos gods and kill every not IoM and just be a chuck norris/ charlie sheen hybrid. Pretty much the stuff Matt Ward makes everything he touches able to do...flying libby dreanoughts...shameful...

Firstly there is a chance that the webgate would have failed anyway, and hes not keeping the chaos gods out of the material universe he just keeping deamons out, the chaos gods themself are so busy whit thier great game they dont really care much about the material universe.

Griever wrote:I'm totally going to use this to trash talk all of the GK players that will show up at the FLGS. My Guard will discipline these heretics.

Well now that they've officially hung out with the cool guys at the Khorne pre battle kegger my converted GK terminator obliterators aren't so strange after all...

AvatarForm wrote:This was answered on Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108608&d=1301994426

Actual Codex page... explains everything.

To those below... look up and read the Codex. The OP was mislead and they did not worship Khorne at all... its just Ward-fluff, apparently the blood protected them from being 'infected' by the Bloodthirster who was released... it was his blood that caused the insurrection.

Lord Scythican wrote:So does anyone have an idea how long it will take to get over the whole slaughtering and bathing in blood thing? I mean by this point it has to be all good right? Grey Knights can't be corrupted so they can do things like this and it is still pure right? What happens if there is a blood tide and no sisters to grind up into bloodshakes? Do the Grey Knights get corrupted by Chaos? I thought that was impossible, but if it is then why would they need to make bloodshakes out of the sisters?

I am still laughing a little inside. I said this would happen and everyone thought I was crazy.

Pilau Rice wrote:So they kill allies who aren't tainted in anyway and they also baby sit Eldar souls?

Egads

So how did this come about?

Every moment a new more perplexing revelation.

And I thought I knew a bit about the background, guess it's my age

AvatarForm wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:This was answered on Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108608&d=1301994426

Actual Codex page... explains everything.

To those below... look up and read the Codex. The OP was mislead and they did not worship Khorne at all... its just Ward-fluff, apparently the blood protected them from being 'infected' by the Bloodthirster who was released... it was his blood that caused the insurrection.

Lord Scythican wrote:So does anyone have an idea how long it will take to get over the whole slaughtering and bathing in blood thing? I mean by this point it has to be all good right? Grey Knights can't be corrupted so they can do things like this and it is still pure right? What happens if there is a blood tide and no sisters to grind up into bloodshakes? Do the Grey Knights get corrupted by Chaos? I thought that was impossible, but if it is then why would they need to make bloodshakes out of the sisters?

I am still laughing a little inside. I said this would happen and everyone thought I was crazy.

Pilau Rice wrote:So they kill allies who aren't tainted in anyway and they also baby sit Eldar souls?

Egads

So how did this come about?

Every moment a new more perplexing revelation.

And I thought I knew a bit about the background, guess it's my age

I don't actually think he seriously thought they worshiped Khorne. The title is just to highlight his surprise as how the GKs just uncaringly turned on the only uncorrupted thing on the planet, and basically slaughtered them just how the priests slaughtered the populace. For an army thats whole background is based on how not a single GK has ever fallen to chaos and how they're completely incorruptible, the fact that they kill innocent SoB and spread their blood on their Armour is just contradictory to anything established before. If they can endure 10,000 years of battling Daemons without a single SM falling to Chaos, why the hell do they have to protect themselves further still by killing the innocent? DO all this stuff about Aegis Armour, training, tests, rituals and their genetic enhancement beyond any other SMs count for nothing? If the SoB are less protected than the GK and only a few fell to Chaos with the majority still fighting, why the feth do they need even more protection than SoB?
It's just a stupid piece of fluff that shouldn't have been put in. Much better for the GK to team up with the SoB to fight the Bloodthirster together.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, just because a Grey Knight's spirit is incorruptible doesn't mean his flesh is, and while Grey Knights are anathema to daemons, greater daemons are way more powerful than the mere grunt daemons. To put it simply, while they probably wouldn't have gone mad, such powerful magicks could very well have other nastybad effects.

Reading some of these posts about who is good and evil is interesting. I always looked at it as not necessarily good vs. evil as much as good intentions taken to extremes.

This even applies to Chaos. Think of it this way. The IoM is Law and Order taken to extreme, meaning they will do anything to keep things ordered and lawful, even if that means doing something that is morally wrong.

Chaos, on the other hand, is all about freedom. Freedom to do what you want when you want, but with no moral compass to stop you from doing morally wrong acts.

The other xenos races then are the grey areas in-between.

Eldar are the shinny examples of a society that understand the differences between to much freedom and not enough, but do nothing to help anyone but themselves.

Tau also understand the differences, but provide an ultimatum to the other races to assimilate to our ways or die.

Etc. Etc.

More so than anything, yes there really isn't any good guys and while some may say there are definitely bad guys I tend to think that is not the case specifically. More about the morality of actions and life then whether something is specifically good or bad.

To whoever said the Emperor is busy keeping Daemons out of the Material, well, he doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.


On the matter of Codex Creep, I honestly wouldn't mind it if the IoM started getting better equipment, better tactics, etc. with each passing codex, if their fluff didn't lock them unthinkingly into a single technology level. If anything, the IoM should be losing technology and techniques, not gaining them, if only because they couch machines in religion and don't accept tinkering or, well, SCIENCE very much. I'd be willing to bet a scuzzy hobo from the depths of the worst hive on Armageddon knows more about the scientific method than most Techpriests, simply because nobody's around to tell him how to 'properly' worship machines.

Once again, AdeptSister, you are making statements about the fluff that simply aren't there in the fluff. Either that or you're using a definition of the term "innocent" far different from the one I am.

Because I did not read about a single story hook in the codex which involved innocents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:To whoever said the Emperor is busy keeping Daemons out of the Material, well, he doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.

That's a matter of perspective compared to what could have been if he wasn't doing it-- but codex: chaos daemons seems to be indicating that he's the only thing stopping chaos from taking over the galaxy.

AvatarForm wrote:
To those below... look up and read the Codex. The OP was mislead and they did not worship Khorne at all... its just Ward-fluff, apparently the blood protected them from being 'infected' by the Bloodthirster who was released... it was his blood that caused the insurrection.

Really, they don't? Well I'll be damned ...

I never would have thought that at all

AlmightyWalrus wrote:As has been pointed out repeatedly, just because a Grey Knight's spirit is incorruptible doesn't mean his flesh is, and while Grey Knights are anathema to daemons, greater daemons are way more powerful than the mere grunt daemons. To put it simply, while they probably wouldn't have gone mad, such powerful magicks could very well have other nastybad effects.

But of course the fluff never said anything about the flesh. It just said it would corrupt the Grey Knights. It could go either way, flesh or spirit. However since it isn't clairifyed it is a assumption on both accounts. However something would be corrupted.

Pilau Rice wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
To those below... look up and read the Codex. The OP was mislead and they did not worship Khorne at all... its just Ward-fluff, apparently the blood protected them from being 'infected' by the Bloodthirster who was released... it was his blood that caused the insurrection.

Really, they don't? Well I'll be damned ...

I never would have thought that at all

Well since you threw my name in that, I guess I will have to respond. Maybe my jokes were a little misleading, but I never once seriously thought that the Grey knights worshiped Khorne.

Mine was also made in sarcasm, I know it doesn't translate very well in forums so thought that I had better confirm it.

Good day!

Perhaps all the weird stuff can sort of be rationalized in some fashion. But then how do you explain that the less protected-against-corruption SOB didn't need quasi-Khornate rituals to protect themselves, yet the super-duper GK did? If the SOB can (mostly) resist the Bloodtide without The Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, then why the heck did the GK need their blood?

Because PLOT HOLE?

That's probably the best explanation

Maybe they were just tired of all that gray. . . .

I blame it on the red 'grey knight' model in the Daemonhunters book pictures section. I'm pretty sure he's there anyway. Possibly a Golden Daemon entry?

I forget who painted it, but maybe that's where they got the idea


** edit***

Jon Blanche, i think

Melissia wrote:Because PLOT HOLE?

Which can be filled with "Chaos Grey Knights" Bwah Ha Ha Ha!

asimo77 wrote: If the SOB can (mostly) resist the Bloodtide without The Aegis and Hexagrammic Wards, then why the heck did the GK need their blood?

Same reason we take the blood of the few lucky sods who survive ebola to make a cure?

If chaos really worked like that why don't sisters go around donating blood everywhere?

Because Matt Ward wanted to kill some sisters and couldn't be arsed to come up with something that fit in with the previously established fluff.

It seems like everyone wants to kill some sisters. They really do get beat up quite a bit in the fluff.

Pretty much. Sisters are 40k's scratching post.

I heard a while back there was a book coming out about SOB returning to the shrine-world where the IoM first encountered Necrons (the SOB being the 1st in the IoM to encounter them). I wonder how that would turn out, they might win for once. And since I love both factions it's a win-win read for me!

Yeah, ever since the necrons were introduced, it seems.

asimo77 wrote:I heard a while back there was a book coming out about SOB returning to the shrine-world where the IoM first encountered Necrons (the SOB being the 1st in the IoM to encounter them). I wonder how that would turn out, they might win for once. And since I love both factions it's a win-win read for me!

Sanctuary 101, yes. I hope Sisters win this time, but meh.

Anvildude wrote:To whoever said the Emperor is busy keeping Daemons out of the Material, well, he doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.

He's doing a wonderful job. What daemons there are now is just a trickle from the Warp, without the Emperor it would be a flood and the materium would drown in the tide of daemons.

Not bad given the guy's been dead for centuries

My question is, how do we know this, except from the Imperium's perspective?

Is there any indication that the other races, or chaos itself, believe/know this I'm not finding any non-imperial backslapping for the Emperor out there, or even acknowledgement that he is responsible for being a cosmic plug.

Melissia wrote:Once again, AdeptSister, you are making statements about the fluff that simply aren't there in the fluff. Either that or you're using a definition of the term "innocent" far different from the one I am.

Because I did not read about a single story hook in the codex which involved innocents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:To whoever said the Emperor is busy keeping Daemons out of the Material, well, he doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.

That's a matter of perspective compared to what could have been if he wasn't doing it-- but codex: chaos daemons seems to be indicating that he's the only thing stopping chaos from taking over the galaxy.

The only thing I can think of they might be referring to, is Dawn of War: Soulstorm, where it's said multiple times that sisters cleanse absolutely anything an everything that *might* be heretical. Got a confession to make? We'll listen, then purge you to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Note that DoW is not official fluff, so it doesn't actually hold bearing; it's simply the only place i can think of where they do this.

Ascalam wrote:Not bad given the guy's been dead for centuries

My question is, how do we know this, except from the Imperium's perspective?

Is there any indication that the other races, or chaos itself, believe/know this I'm not finding any non-imperial backslapping for the Emperor out there, or even acknowledgement that he is responsible for being a cosmic plug.

I imagine that the other psychicly sensitive races would be able to see the Astronomican too. Thus, they'd be aware that there's something or someone generating a whole LOT of power at Terra and guiding it into the galaxy. Can we be sure that it's the Emperor? No. The question is: who else?

Not exactly what i asked. I asked if the other races believe that Big E is stopping the demons, or if this is just a human perspective.

The other races know about the Emperor's giant flashlight, which basically acts as a reference point in the warp for navigation. It's much easier to navigate if you have a known fixed point to work from, with distance and direction.

How about it just being a machine that pumps out a psychic signal drawn from the billions of psykers they feed to it? A lighthouse doesn't need an operator to function, once set up and running. They generally have one in case something goes wrong, but they aren't actually needed most of the time (i've been a lighthouse keeper). It doesn't so much guide the power as send it out in all directions in the warp.

Unless they've retconned the fluff again (as they are prone to doing) each person radiates in the warp like a light,a nd the more powerful the psyker the brighter the light. The astronomican is basically a huge, brilliant light that indicates the location of Terra, aiding navigation.

If it does anything else i'm not aware of it from the fluff i have, but given how the novels 'expand' the fluff i'm sure it also mounts a combination can opener, warpgate and aardvark-groomer.

Given that the astronomican has flickered and gone out before in the fluff, and is becoming increasingly unreliable i think it would argue that the Big E is gone. There was also a pyschic pulse iirc a few centuries back in the timeline that wiped out psykers all over the imperium. Death throes, perhaps?

I remember the imperial tarot being in the fluff at one point, and being guided slightly by the emperor in a couple of short stories (regarding CSM invasion i think), but it seems to have gone the way of the dodo also

*edit for fething autocorrect*

Ascalam wrote:
How about it just being a machine that pumps out a psychic signal drawn from the billions of psykers they feed to it? A lighthouse doesn't need an operator to function, once set up and running. They generally have one in case something goes wrong, but they aren't actually needed most of the time (i've been a lighthouse keeper). It doesn't so much guide the power as send it out in all directions in the warp.

I assume that both the Eldar and the Dark Eldar would be aware of the magnitude of technological genius required to build such a machine, and they without doubt know that the Imperium isn't capable of building something like it. Thus, they would likely assume that something is focusing the energy to release it in controlled bursts, and that something isn't a machine. I'm just theorizing ATM though. By the same token, if the Emperor's keeping daemons out of realspace it stands to reason that he'd leave some kind of track or have some sort of effect in the warp, which the psychicly attuned races would be able to detect.

As for official fluff, there's none that I'm aware of.

Who said it was a controlled burst? I visualise it as a continual radiance..

why couldn't a machine do controlled bursts, even assuming that it does so? You can make a pulse timer for a light in about 10 minutes with very simple tech. Making a timer to release collected energy at intervals is not much more complex.

Collecting that energy is, but humanity seems well on top of technology for pulling someone's mind outn their ears A pet theory of mine isthat it's repurposed Necron tech, but UI have no fluff to back it thats conclusive.

on track/effect maybe, maybe not. I've never run across any description of an effect like that. Daemons seem to be able to manifest anywhere in the Imperium (barring sol system) pretty much.

My theory is that the Imperium is faking it, and the Daemons haven't called the bluff yet, barring a few toes dipped in the water ;0)

asimo77 wrote:If chaos really worked like that why don't sisters go around donating blood everywhere?

Yeah to defeat any Daemon army, all you have to do is add one sister to each Grey Knight unit. You could sacrifice her like a Ammo Runt and have a 1+ Invulnerable save for that unit for the rest of the game!

Or use her as a Holy Bomb in the middle of the Daemon army.

solles wrote:Note that DoW is not official fluff, so it doesn't actually hold bearing; it's simply the only place i can think of where they do this.

Actually I think Relic's fluff is fine.

But Soulstorm wasn't written by Relic.

Ascalam wrote:Bear in mind that the choice they offer is 'join or die' and that one of their principle allies are thralled by tech helmets to serve the tau, regardless of their wishes.

Sounds a bit dubious, morally, to me

A wish to survive doesn't make you non evil

The tau are the least outwardly malicious race in 40K, debatably. Compared to the IImperium or the Necrons they're paragons of shiny light, but given the setting...

Not really, since the Tau rarely attack settled worlds, often taking unsettled planets, or fighting in self-defence.

The Vespid Stingwing helmet thing is not fact, since at this point, there is no proof. Maybe if they make another dex with more on it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sille wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sille wrote:Exterminating 1 planet is usally not even noticeble in the grand schemes of the Imperium, aswell as liberating the planet or fighting(cleansing) the heretics can claim more lifes than just doing a exterminatus. and if its a really important planet they will just do a massive invasion to take it back.
The Emperor dident intend on making the Imperium into what it is 2day(most likly), his action was that of a leader that wanted to create a Imperium where humans could be safe from xenos and have their eyes open to the Imperial truth, that is there is no gods no holy stuff and yada yada you know what i mean=),

buuuut there is a possebility that he did know this was gonna happen and directed the Imperium to this.

He envisioned a utopian society, not the dystopia that is the modern Imperium.

Also, if Magnus hadn't fethed with the Emprah's Webway gate, the emperor wouldn't be permanently indisposed of...keeping the chaos gods out of the material universe. If he wasn't so busy doing that, he would probably be able to heal himself and destroy the chaos gods and kill every not IoM and just be a chuck norris/ charlie sheen hybrid. Pretty much the stuff Matt Ward makes everything he touches able to do...flying libby dreanoughts...shameful...

Firstly there is a chance that the webgate would have failed anyway, and hes not keeping the chaos gods out of the material universe he just keeping deamons out, the chaos gods themself are so busy whit thier great game they dont really care much about the material universe.

This is a quote on the matter from the 40k wiki. "He is also said to constantly battle the Chaos Gods in the Warp and prevent their intrusion upon the material universe"

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/The_Emperor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:To whoever said the Emperor is busy keeping Daemons out of the Material, well, he doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.


On the matter of Codex Creep, I honestly wouldn't mind it if the IoM started getting better equipment, better tactics, etc. with each passing codex, if their fluff didn't lock them unthinkingly into a single technology level. If anything, the IoM should be losing technology and techniques, not gaining them, if only because they couch machines in religion and don't accept tinkering or, well, SCIENCE very much. I'd be willing to bet a scuzzy hobo from the depths of the worst hive on Armageddon knows more about the scientific method than most Techpriests, simply because nobody's around to tell him how to 'properly' worship machines.

He keeps them from entering in the warp gate on terra, not the eye/maelstrom.

The Imperium gaining technology can be explained via. the exploraotors and the STCs they discover.

what? the Tau annex Imperial worlds all the time, and what has that got to do with the grey knights?

Lord Harrab wrote:what? the Tau annex Imperial worlds all the time, and what has that got to do with the grey knights?

They have taken several imperial worlds, but of their ~100 planets, probably 15 were former-IoM. That's a guesstimate mind you, but with the countless unsettled worlds, plus the worlds of their allies, I wonder if Tau translates as "the only race that isn't fething insane"