im2randomghgh wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:not sure, didn't read the whole thread but: Did anyone point out the reality of the story?

Yes the GK mercilessly slaughtered the innocent Sisters... because they basically had to. They mixed the blood of said sisters with anointing oils and unguents as they needed the blood of "Pure and innocent" peoples to banish the daemons, it was not "for fun"; but rather out of grim(-dark?) necessity.

the concept has actually been around in many religions throughout human history; in order to appease the god(s) or banish the evil the blood of an innocent must be used(many times the full sacrifice of the innocents life, but sometimes just a small amount of blood is needed).

Yes, but before this dex, GK didn't need anything to help them remain pure, now we know they CAN be corrupted, they just haven't been yet. And human rarely dictate rubbing the blood of said sacrifice all over your body.

Not true at all; they have always required the devotionals, oils, accoutrement, etc, to banish daemons.

"Anointing" oneself does not mean Smearing/rubbing the unguent all over your body, often a dab with do(as all the remaining sisters had to be sacrificed, I am guessing they did use quite a bit of blood/Knight, but still)

Also it was quite common for many early religions to anoint themselves in sacrificial blood(no matter the source); Ash Wednesday still has the Anointing of, well Ash; and baptismal is the Anointing of holy Water(some sects still do the full submersion). Depending on the need some Aztec rituals had a full on blood-bath(literal use), As did some Pictish/pre-christian Gaelic/Druidic rituals, I believe there was at least 1 Vedic Ritual that requires blood; then you can get into the Central American Catholics that re-create(fully, in detail) the "stations".

BaronIveagh wrote:I havnt't read the most recent Tau codex fluff, but IIRC the only Tau + Genocide was the non-canon ending of Soulstorm.


@Sillie: I've never heard that one before, what source?


Watch: the Next Codex: Tau, they'll rule Half Ultima Segmentum and be trotting Slaanesh around on a leash. If Matt Ward writes it, that is....

its from one of the Ultramarine novels (i think), the numbers i used was just an example but there has always been a huge decline in humans on tau conqured worlds, couse of "birth controll".

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, where is this forced sterilization program fluff from? And doesn't that directly conflict with the Tau having set up Human colonies for the Gue'vesa Auxiliaries?

Most human world's are sterilized by the Tau (which isn't true genocide, since only potential humans are being killed), and a few worlds set aside for the Gue'vesa, since the Tau like having the taller, stronger, more melee capable humans fight alongside them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:not sure, didn't read the whole thread but: Did anyone point out the reality of the story?

Yes the GK mercilessly slaughtered the innocent Sisters... because they basically had to. They mixed the blood of said sisters with anointing oils and unguents as they needed the blood of "Pure and innocent" peoples to banish the daemons, it was not "for fun"; but rather out of grim(-dark?) necessity.

the concept has actually been around in many religions throughout human history; in order to appease the god(s) or banish the evil the blood of an innocent must be used(many times the full sacrifice of the innocents life, but sometimes just a small amount of blood is needed).

Yes, but before this dex, GK didn't need anything to help them remain pure, now we know they CAN be corrupted, they just haven't been yet. And human rarely dictate rubbing the blood of said sacrifice all over your body.

Not true at all; they have always required the devotionals, oils, accoutrement, etc, to banish daemons.

"Anointing" oneself does not mean Smearing/rubbing the unguent all over your body, often a dab with do(as all the remaining sisters had to be sacrificed, I am guessing they did use quite a bit of blood/Knight, but still)

Also it was quite common for many early religions to anoint themselves in sacrificial blood(no matter the source); Ash Wednesday still has the Anointing of, well Ash; and baptismal is the Anointing of holy Water(some sects still do the full submersion). Depending on the need some Aztec rituals had a full on blood-bath(literal use), As did some Pictish/pre-christian Gaelic/Druidic rituals, I believe there was at least 1 Vedic Ritual that requires blood; then you can get into the Central American Catholics that re-create(fully, in detail) the "stations".

They have always used the unguents and such, but before this it was their psyker powers that kept the corruption out. Omnibus.Read it.

You all realize that blood doesn't work that way? Pure blood doesn't really protect you from deamons. Of course if the Grey Knights say it will protect them, then its all good right? All they have to do is say it.

So many people keep saying the sisters arn't that pure and innocent. They say the sisters will burn heritics and wipe out massive amounts of life just to be sure, that they're really no better than the Grey Knights. If all that is true, than how can the sisters yield innocent blood? Many of the pagan and early Christian practices mentioned sacrifice somthing innocent. Children, virgins, and in the case of Christianity, a lamb.

Either Sisters are innocent, virtuous paragons of all that is good in humanity, or they are not and their blood would not be innocent, and the GK's ritual would fail.

Indeed, Sisters are, to quote 40k: "Shining examples of all that is good about humanity", and "the pinnacle of faith, devotion, and purity".

Sisters are most assuredly pure, quite possibly moreso than Grey Knights now.

im2randomghgh wrote:Most human world's are sterilized by the Tau (which isn't true genocide

The Czech Roma would strongly disagree with you, as would the Center for Holocaust and Genocide and dozens of other modern organizations that try to stop genocide across the world.

Forced sterilization is most assuredly considered a form of genocide.

You are killing off a race through forcing them not to be able to produce children. Whether you kill them off immediately or kill them off through forced sterilization is irrelevant-- it's still genocide, which is "systematic killing of a racial or cultural group".

Tau are just as genocidal as humans are in 40k.

That's it, I am going to find a way to speak with someone at GW (not a fething clerk, I want Jervis or one of his pals) and ask them, WHAT THE , why did you let this through.

This is bullsheit, I am at a loss of words!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sleeping giant? Have you not heard of the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Didn't that come from the Tau trying to turn Imperial planets away from the Imperium?

The Explorator fleet that was going to extinguish the Tau when they were primitives, just cuz?

The Imperium was going to exterminate the Tau because it wanted the planet and its resources. If the Tau came across a resource richplanet with feral Orks on it that are absolutely no threat whatsoever to them, what do you think they would do? Pass on by, or exterminate the Orks?

The Imperium that never negociates, ever?

They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?

So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else.

'They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?


So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else. '

The imperium has a bad habit of allying with an alien race, then exterminating them afterwards. I can't thing of any occasion other than some rather old fluff regarding the eldar where they negotiated with a race and actually meant it.

The Imperium couldn't care less about saving lives. Get off the Big E fanclub horse. They are a totalitarian regime ruled by some not very nice people in the name of a corpse. They combine the worst aspects of the spanish inquisition, ancient rome and nazi germany.

No one expects that All Roads lead to the Nazi Inquisition!

If the GK are so dedicated to the cause then they should just bring a sister or two on every campaign. They don't seem like the type to leave things to chance. And if really just takes a few drops to annoint then a couple of sisters-made-chapter serfs would suffice.

Or we can all just admit they they are Khorne worshippers.

Also I should probably throw out I've always hated GK and really liked SOB, so maybe I sound a little biased :p

It's worth adding that "The Bloodtide" is, in fact, not a creation of Matt Ward.

Andy Hoare introduced the term in his novel "The Hunt for Voldorius". It wasn't described, at all, except being something an Alpha Legion Lord was trying to "awaken".

Anvildude wrote:No one expects that All Roads lead to the Nazi Inquisition!

ROFL!

Somehow I don't think Andy had Sisters as purer then GKs, however.

This thread is still going? Im suprised! Well..that was a lie. Not really suprised.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sleeping giant? Have you not heard of the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Didn't that come from the Tau trying to turn Imperial planets away from the Imperium?

The Explorator fleet that was going to extinguish the Tau when they were primitives, just cuz?

The Imperium was going to exterminate the Tau because it wanted the planet and its resources. If the Tau came across a resource richplanet with feral Orks on it that are absolutely no threat whatsoever to them, what do you think they would do? Pass on by, or exterminate the Orks?

The Imperium that never negociates, ever?

They've negotiated with the Tau, Eldar and other alien species'.

The IoM that ate my cookie?

So that it could save your life, and the lives of everyone else.

The Imperium does not negociate, in fact, nogociating with xenos is heresy, and can bring the Inquisition into the picture. Whenever they negociate, it is just manipulation at it's worst, essentially they're saying: Wait here while we kill the Nids, then we'll break you like ants, okay?

The gulf crusade was before most of the Tau ruled former IoM planets were taking. The Tau reclaimed their lost planets, and started annexing worlds, in the wake of the crusade.

The Gue'vesa are loyal to the Tau Empire, so no, it is NOT genocide. If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide?

The feral Orks would pose a threat, especially since the Orks have their *special* method of reproduction.

I still don't have my cookie.

I think if your government forced one race of peoples to go have a vasectomy it would be the slowest acting genocide ever. Of course as far as I know there's no evidence of Tau doing any such thing so it's a moot point. I really hope they keep Tau as good guys and none of this insidious grimdarkness nonsense. Tau are unique because they are good and naive, makes 40k a whole lot more interesting that way.

'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

Also, I agree that the Tau should not be altered, since they are (whether they are evil or not) the least evil faction, and angry Tau performing torture and killing for fun would weaken the 40k universe considerably.

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

Except the problem is... where is this taking place? I can't find anything other then some vague insinuations in Soulstorm about it.

im2randomghgh wrote:exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

And if that condition is not acceptable?

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

And if that condition is not acceptable?

'

If that's not acceptable, then it is war. But think about it in terms of the other factions. IoM wouldn't ask, they'd blow gak up, just to be safe. Orks would attack. Always. Nids would devour. Eldar would cleanse. DE would slave-raid. Necrons-they do their thing. Chaos...Chaos. Slaughter, torture, mutate, rot. Not pleasant. Castration is by FAR the best option there...not that i'm eager to have mine chopped off or anything...

HEy mate get back on topic.
Grey Knights are not evil, and that piece of lore does not exist.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

... the alternative of which is to be killed.

It's coerced. Deal with it, Tau love genocide, they practice it all the time.

They're evil little cowfishbirds and everyone but you knows it

Melissia wrote:Once again, AdeptSister, you are making statements about the fluff that simply aren't there in the fluff. Either that or you're using a definition of the term "innocent" far different from the one I am.

Because I did not read about a single story hook in the codex which involved innocents.

*Sigh* I think we disagree on some terms. When I say "innocent" I interpret it as "someone that is not guilty." And I believe an "unwitting pawn" is "someone that is not guilty." "Unwitting pawns" are mentioned in both the Generic and IG hooks as ones that Witchhuters will slaughter totally just to make sure. They also will slaughter you if they even they think you may be guilty or there could be the slightest chance that you are guilty (see the first IG hook). Because of this view, some people for are not guilty get swept up in the Sister's rampage. I take someone that is not guilty to be innocent.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ascalam wrote:'If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide? '

If every human in a community was ordered to do so, and did, then yes I'm not up on tau fluff (so not saying that this is what they do/did) but were they to do so it would be. If you asked (en masse, without duress or mind control) for sterilization it would not be.

exactly, that's what I was saying. It's not forced, it's a condition of joining the Empire.

... the alternative of which is to be killed.

It's coerced. Deal with it, Tau love genocide, they practice it all the time.

They're evil little cowfishbirds and everyone but you knows it

As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical. The Tau are, in terms their expansionist philosophy, probably the most similar to modern humans. They are no moral or immoral, or even amoral, since they TRY to be kind to all they meet, without it getting in their way.

Logic and manifest destiny drives the Tau. Also, read my most recent post (not including this one), and you'll see the Tau are by far the kindest and most humane race in 40k. By far!!!

@Asherian, yes GKs are evil, since it is no better to be attacked by them than it is to be attacked by daemons. Especially if you're a pious Imperial citizen who beleives salvation is on it's way, and then salvation cuts your head off with a massive force Halberd.

I will agree that Tau are the most humane in 40k...but that means little when compared with current morality.

And Sisters are the best of humanity...but remember the virtues of humanity are far different that ours in Grimdark 40k.

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Wow... I read the first few pages of this thread. Wow. It kinda turned my stomach a little having one my armies (GK) have a blood jacuzzi in my other armies blood (SOB) and they are supposed to be on the same side. WTF?!
I know the DeathWatch RPG (I know, do I really want to expand this argument even more?), isn't canon but perhaps some insight. I think it does mention in there that only men can be SM and the Blood of Martyrs (yeah, I know the irony) has Sisters of Repentia that got there as possibly minor violations and not necessarily corruption from Chaos.
Some of the Faith Powers in that Book Blood of Martyrs has a power that if pulled can have a SM battle cruiser land on the character and the character gets up and walks away and gives a thumbs to sky for Big E. Sometimes their power of faith is amazing and real manifestations. Above corruption, no, but rare. I think that figure diorama with Ephrael Stern and Silas Hand from Daemonifuge has a Demon corrupted sister from Stern's sisters if I'm not mistaken.

[http://www.minidragon.net/images/Warhammer%2040K/ephrael1.jpg]

Hey there, want some Smallpox blankets? They'll keep you warm tonight, but most of you will die horribly within the next decade.

Or we could just shoot you all, but it's your choice, really.

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Exactly. Either way it's genocide, either way it's evil. Tau fanboys can defend them all they want, but Tau are still evil bastards

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

I already compared them (fittingly) to modern humanity, and let me ask you: are modern humans above making threats?

Melissia wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Exactly. Either way it's genocide, either way it's evil. Tau fanboys can defend them all they want, but Tau are still evil bastards

Essentially the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man are equal on the "Genocidal Feth-head" scale, the Tau just have better PR

The whole "slow genocide is just as bad as the shoot-you in-the-head version" makes sense. But do we have any proof of Tau doing either?

Lord Harrab wrote:

Melissia wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As I already said, it's not evil, it's logical.

"Your race will die quickly or slowly. Pick one."

Er. . .ok. . . .

Exactly. Either way it's genocide, either way it's evil. Tau fanboys can defend them all they want, but Tau are still evil bastards

Essentially the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man are equal on the "Genocidal Feth-head" scale, the Tau just have better PR

Equal? The IoM commits genocide on people who they suspect are heretics, good imperial citizens, aliens, heretics, and, sometimes, just cuz.

The Tau commit a lesser form of genocide, in which people are allowed to live out their lives as normal, when absolutelly necessary.

Codex Quote: the Tau way of war does not recognize the concept of expendable.

Can you guys keep this on topic? If you want to argue about the Tau, make a different topic. Thank you.

Anyway, between this and the Blood Angels, I'm beginning to wonder if Mard is a Chaos player in disguise and this is all one big troll.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Can you guys keep this on topic? If you want to argue about the Tau, make a different topic. Thank you.

Anyway, between this and the Blood Angels, I'm beginning to wonder if Mard is a Chaos player in disguise and this is all one big troll.

No, he's an Ultrasmurfs player, and to make them look like the ultimate defenders of humanity by making the rest of the IoM look horrible.

Blood Angels have Flying. Librarian. Dreadnoughts.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Anyway, between this and the Blood Angels, I'm beginning to wonder if Mard is a Chaos player in disguise and this is all one big troll.

No, he's an Ultrasmurfs player, and to make them look like the ultimate defenders of humanity by making the rest of the IoM look horrible.

Blood Angels have Flying. Librarian. Dreadnoughts.

That's why I said "in disguise". He's slowly binding his time until he's redone all the Marine codex, then surprising everyone.

*gasp* Mutt Wart just got EVEN more evil!!!

im2randomghgh wrote:*gasp* Mutt Wart just got EVEN more evil!!!

Yes, by bathing in the blood of CS Goto, he has begun his ascension to daemon prince.

asimo77 wrote:The whole "slow genocide is just as bad as the shoot-you in-the-head version" makes sense. But do we have any proof of Tau doing either?

Not that anyone has mentioned. It seems like if you ask about it, they don't bother to respond.

You know the fifth chaos god? Malal? That's Matt Ward.

Matt Ward
An evil entity
Loser
Awful writer
Loves Ultrasmurfs too much.

So true..

That said if C.S. Goto has made the ultimate sacrifice i can live with that...

Ascalam wrote:So true..

That said if C.S. Goto has made the ultimate sacrifice i can live with that...

Goto=Ward.

evil twin episode, where both Ward and Goto are the evil twin...

That's twisted

Ascalam wrote:evil twin episode, where both Ward and Goto are the evil twin...

That's twisted

Not twins, SAME PERSON! *gasp*

Not as evil, but probably more likely :0)

It would explain a lot...

Ya, like how two such awful writers could just happen to end up working for the same company? Ya, just no. The Universe isn't that mean to us. Just one awful, awful human being.

im2randomghgh wrote:Ya, like how two such awful writers could just happen to end up working for the same company? Ya, just no. The Universe isn't that mean to us. Just one awful, awful human being.

C.S. Goto hasn't worked for Games Workshop for 5+ years.

Matt Ward was working there when C.S. Goto was still being hired, but he was working on the Lord of the Rings.

Ascalam wrote:
The imperium has a bad habit of allying with an alien race, then exterminating them afterwards. I can't thing of any occasion other than some rather old fluff regarding the eldar where they negotiated with a race and actually meant it.

They've fought alongside the Eldar, Tau they've even employed Orks as mercenaries. I believe I may have heard of them hiring Kroot as well, but I'm not so sure about that last one.

The Imperium couldn't care less about saving lives. Get off the Big E fanclub horse. They are a totalitarian regime ruled by some not very nice people in the name of a corpse. They combine the worst aspects of the spanish inquisition, ancient rome and nazi germany.

The purpose of the Imperium is to unite and protect humanity. Which is about saving human lives. Some of the Imperium might be corrupt and self-serving, but overall, it doesn't actually seem malevolent. They don't do nice things, they do necessary things.

im2randomghgh wrote:The Imperium does not negociate, in fact, nogociating with xenos is heresy, and can bring the Inquisition into the picture. Whenever they negociate, it is just manipulation at it's worst, essentially they're saying: Wait here while we kill the Nids, then we'll break you like ants, okay?

The gulf crusade was before most of the Tau ruled former IoM planets were taking. The Tau reclaimed their lost planets, and started annexing worlds, in the wake of the crusade.

The Gue'vesa are loyal to the Tau Empire, so no, it is NOT genocide. If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide?

The feral Orks would pose a threat, especially since the Orks have their *special* method of reproduction.

I still don't have my cookie.

Yes it does. It will fight alongside Eldar and Tau if necessary, it has hired xeno mercenaries, and the Grey Knights and Inquisition seem to do it fairly often.

The Tau were still seeking to claim control of Imperial worlds. Peacefully, but it's a hostile act nonetheless.

If it's an entire people being forced into it, then yes. Although I never mentioned genocide against Humans.

Feral Orks do not pose a threat unless the Tau go onto the planet and start claiming it fro their own. What the Tau do to them is no different to what the Imperium tried to do to the Tau. Orks are, after all, intelligent beings.

No, but the Tau wouldn't let you have it either.

Equal? The IoM commits genocide on people who they suspect are heretics, good imperial citizens, aliens, heretics, and, sometimes, just cuz.

Because the threat of what they could do is so much worse. Keep the xenos alive, and what happens? Well, just look at the Tau who never even realised the Imperium tried to exterminate them. Heretics? That heresy could spread throughout the world and lead to rebellion, or worse. Good Imperial citizens? They can't take the chance. I don't think they really want to exterminate humanity, they just try to do what's necessary.

If what the Tau do is justified by the fact that they're trying to stay alive, so is what the Imperium does.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Can you guys keep this on topic? If you want to argue about the Tau, make a different topic. Thank you.

That's on topic to you? This thread is suggesting that Khorne might approve of the Grey Knights, not randomly insulting Matt Ward and the background he writes.

Actually when IoM commits genocides they save billions of other people.

IoM is actually performing the "lesser" evil..
Sometimes you have to sacrifice 1 billions people to save 100billion others.

By enforced conscription or pure murder. The Human life depends on that other die in their stead.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The imperium has a bad habit of allying with an alien race, then exterminating them afterwards. I can't thing of any occasion other than some rather old fluff regarding the eldar where they negotiated with a race and actually meant it.

They've fought alongside the Eldar, Tau they've even employed Orks as mercenaries. I believe I may have heard of them hiring Kroot as well, but I'm not so sure about that last one.

The Imperium couldn't care less about saving lives. Get off the Big E fanclub horse. They are a totalitarian regime ruled by some not very nice people in the name of a corpse. They combine the worst aspects of the spanish inquisition, ancient rome and nazi germany.

The purpose of the Imperium is to unite and protect humanity. Which is about saving human lives. Some of the Imperium might be corrupt and self-serving, but overall, it doesn't actually seem malevolent. They don't do nice things, they do necessary things.

im2randomghgh wrote:The Imperium does not negociate, in fact, nogociating with xenos is heresy, and can bring the Inquisition into the picture. Whenever they negociate, it is just manipulation at it's worst, essentially they're saying: Wait here while we kill the Nids, then we'll break you like ants, okay?

The gulf crusade was before most of the Tau ruled former IoM planets were taking. The Tau reclaimed their lost planets, and started annexing worlds, in the wake of the crusade.

The Gue'vesa are loyal to the Tau Empire, so no, it is NOT genocide. If you go to a doctor and have a vasectomy, has the doctor committed genocide?

The feral Orks would pose a threat, especially since the Orks have their *special* method of reproduction.

I still don't have my cookie.

Yes it does. It will fight alongside Eldar and Tau if necessary, it has hired xeno mercenaries, and the Grey Knights and Inquisition seem to do it fairly often.

The Tau were still seeking to claim control of Imperial worlds. Peacefully, but it's a hostile act nonetheless.

If it's an entire people being forced into it, then yes. Although I never mentioned genocide against Humans.

Feral Orks do not pose a threat unless the Tau go onto the planet and start claiming it fro their own. What the Tau do to them is no different to what the Imperium tried to do to the Tau. Orks are, after all, intelligent beings.

No, but the Tau wouldn't let you have it either.

Equal? The IoM commits genocide on people who they suspect are heretics, good imperial citizens, aliens, heretics, and, sometimes, just cuz.

Because the threat of what they could do is so much worse. Keep the xenos alive, and what happens? Well, just look at the Tau who never even realised the Imperium tried to exterminate them. Heretics? That heresy could spread throughout the world and lead to rebellion, or worse. Good Imperial citizens? They can't take the chance. I don't think they really want to exterminate humanity, they just try to do what's necessary.

If what the Tau do is justified by the fact that they're trying to stay alive, so is what the Imperium does.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Can you guys keep this on topic? If you want to argue about the Tau, make a different topic. Thank you.

That's on topic to you? This thread is suggesting that Khorne might approve of the Grey Knights, not randomly insulting Matt Ward and the background he writes.

For the sterilization, did you ever hear the word forced? Where did you get that word from? Even when conflict is unavoidable, the Tau offer humans the chance to live out their lives in peace, as part of the Empire. Who cares if your sterile? I would rather live my life sterile than get shot in the head with a bolter.

The IoM called exterminatus on three different worlds because one loyal storm-trooper knew about the Chaos Legions. They have vindicares, why do they need to kill billions? Think about it, YOU are one, single life. If you did, it would affect des douzaines des persons. Those that mourn, those that need to fill your job, pay for your funeral etc. Think about that times 20,000,000,000.

If the Tau settled the planet, they likely would not hunt the feral orks without provocation.

And the Tau did indeed give me my cookie. *munch munch munch*

elite_dannux wrote:Actually when IoM commits genocides they save billions of other people.

IoM is actually performing the "lesser" evil..
Sometimes you have to sacrifice 1 billions people to save 100billion others.

Who were they saving when they put three planets to the sword on the off chance that a storm trooper that saw something might have not been butchered?



By the way, the only forced sterilization I have been able to find in 40k took place at the command of the Inquisition.

BaronIveagh wrote:

elite_dannux wrote:Actually when IoM commits genocides they save billions of other people.

IoM is actually performing the "lesser" evil..
Sometimes you have to sacrifice 1 billions people to save 100billion others.

Who were they saving when they put three planets to the sword on the off chance that a storm trooper that saw something might have not been butchered?



By the way, the only forced sterilization I have been able to find in 40k took place at the command of the Inquisition.

Exactly, the Tau dont force sterilization, it is just a relatively mild condition for avoid armed conflict.

Again, where the feth is everyone getting this business with Tau and sterilization?

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, where the feth is everyone getting this business with Tau and sterilization?

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. The Tau ending heavily hinted that the humans were sterilized and generally oppressed.

I think there was something about it in savage scars...

im2randomghgh wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

elite_dannux wrote:Actually when IoM commits genocides they save billions of other people.

IoM is actually performing the "lesser" evil..
Sometimes you have to sacrifice 1 billions people to save 100billion others.

Who were they saving when they put three planets to the sword on the off chance that a storm trooper that saw something might have not been butchered?



By the way, the only forced sterilization I have been able to find in 40k took place at the command of the Inquisition.

Exactly, the Tau dont force sterilization, it is just a relatively mild condition for avoid armed conflict.

......... Get on topic.
Now

im2randomghgh wrote:
For the sterilization, did you ever hear the word forced? Where did you get that word from? Even when conflict is unavoidable, the Tau offer humans the chance to live out their lives in peace, as part of the Empire. Who cares if your sterile? I would rather live my life sterile than get shot in the head with a bolter.

I don't know, other posters were saying it I think. I would care if I was sterile. I would care very much, and I'd certainly try to kill those who forced it on me.

The IoM called exterminatus on three different worlds because one loyal storm-trooper knew about the Chaos Legions. They have vindicares, why do they need to kill billions? Think about it, YOU are one, single life. If you did, it would affect des douzaines des persons. Those that mourn, those that need to fill your job, pay for your funeral etc. Think about that times 20,000,000,000.

Could you elaborate more on that, please? Because the Imperium doesn't take Exterminatus likely.

If the Tau settled the planet, they likely would not hunt the feral orks without provocation.

If I recall correctly, the Orks are one species the Tau have designated as 'to be completely exterminated'. They will never bow before the Tau, so they will try to wipe them out.

And the Tau did indeed give me my cookie. *munch munch munch*

But I thougt the Imperium stole it?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
For the sterilization, did you ever hear the word forced? Where did you get that word from? Even when conflict is unavoidable, the Tau offer humans the chance to live out their lives in peace, as part of the Empire. Who cares if your sterile? I would rather live my life sterile than get shot in the head with a bolter.

I don't know, other posters were saying it I think. I would care if I was sterile. I would care very much, and I'd certainly try to kill those who forced it on me.

The IoM called exterminatus on three different worlds because one loyal storm-trooper knew about the Chaos Legions. They have vindicares, why do they need to kill billions? Think about it, YOU are one, single life. If you did, it would affect des douzaines des persons. Those that mourn, those that need to fill your job, pay for your funeral etc. Think about that times 20,000,000,000.

Could you elaborate more on that, please? Because the Imperium doesn't take Exterminatus likely.

If the Tau settled the planet, they likely would not hunt the feral orks without provocation.

If I recall correctly, the Orks are one species the Tau have designated as 'to be completely exterminated'. They will never bow before the Tau, so they will try to wipe them out.

And the Tau did indeed give me my cookie. *munch munch munch*

But I thougt the Imperium stole it?

That's why the Tau attacked the Imperial worlds, to get me back my cookie. It was worth it.

In your response to my response on the word "forced" you used the word "forced"...Would you rather have the life-eater virus dropped on your head, or live out a long, happy life, minus a child? There are lots of happy people who don't have children.

With the V-bombing several worlds for 'Da trooper, C.S. Goto did it. Nuff said. But never the less, it is canon. It was in tha BR Omni.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, where the feth is everyone getting this business with Tau and sterilization?

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. The Tau ending heavily hinted that the humans were sterilized and generally oppressed.

So, wait, the Non-canon ending of a non-GW/FFG/BL product that only hints that something might have taken place because human population of the planet declined afterward is the basis of all this idiocy?


Feth, seriously, that makes what Matt Ward did to GK look intelligent.

I'm surprised that people are so upset over this, but fail to raise an eyebrow at the fact that the Grey Knights are currently in possession of the Craftworld of Malan'tai.

Not being up on my Eldar, what makes this surprising?

BaronIveagh wrote:Not being up on my Eldar, what makes this surprising?

The fact that the Grey Knights, at this moment in the background, have a standing force of Purifiers keeping vigil over the abandoned Craftworld of Malan'tai(which is packed with caches of hidden Spirit Stones).

Oh, and the fact that they're returning it to the Eldar.

There's far more things to go "WTF" about than this particular passage about the Bloodtide(which, again, is Andy Hoare's creation and has never really been described in detail).

Eh... as far as 'not destroying the spirit stones' that makes sense (screw over slaanesh) but, yeah, turning a craftworld back over to the eldar does seem a bit.... out of character for the Imperium.

BaronIveagh wrote:
So, wait, the Non-canon ending of a non-GW/FFG/BL product that only hints that something might have taken place because human population of the planet declined afterward is the basis of all this idiocy?


Feth, seriously, that makes what Matt Ward did to GK look intelligent.

Someone told me that FFG expanded on that idea in Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. But the thread 404'd before I could get specifics. So there might be more info in the background of an RPG... maybe


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:Eh... as far as 'not destroying the spirit stones' that makes sense (screw over slaanesh) but, yeah, turning a craftworld back over to the eldar does seem a bit.... out of character for the Imperium.

Ward changed the Grey Knights from Puritans to Radicals. Helping Eldar will probably hurt Chaos. That's all the reason they need now.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's why the Tau attacked the Imperial worlds, to get me back my cookie. It was worth it.

So much death in return for a cookie? You have a strange sense of priorities.

In your response to my response on the word "forced" you used the word "forced"...Would you rather have the life-eater virus dropped on your head, or live out a long, happy life, minus a child? There are lots of happy people who don't have children.

The life-eater virus is only used in extreme situations, not in standard genocide situations. It would be like being executed or having a long, not necessarily happy life ruled over by xeno species that treats you as second-class (at best) citizens. Either than or a flesh-eater virus or succumbing to the influence of Chaos and condemning an entire planet to become pawns to the whim of Daemons.

With the V-bombing several worlds for 'Da trooper, C.S. Goto did it. Nuff said. But never the less, it is canon. It was in tha BR Omni.

What was the Stormtrooper supposed to have seen or know?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm surprised that people are so upset over this, but fail to raise an eyebrow at the fact that the Grey Knights are currently in possession of the Craftworld of Malan'tai.

I assumed that the just went there to stop the Daemons from getting stronger from feasting on the souls within Soulstones, and possibly gain Eldar technology remnants on the Craftworld. It's also means the Eldar owe them a significant favour.

BaronIveagh wrote:Eh... as far as 'not destroying the spirit stones' that makes sense (screw over slaanesh) but, yeah, turning a craftworld back over to the eldar does seem a bit.... out of character for the Imperium.

For the Imperium as a whole? Sure.

For the Inquisition, who maintains regular contact with the Eldar and can even call for a parlay?
It's far less out of character

My point was that I can use just that one particular summation of the incident, leave out many of the details and suddenly--the Grey Knights are heretics!

The incident in question had the Grey Knights being warned by the diviners of the Inquisition that one of the bigger, more infamous Greater Daemons(N'kari, Keeper of Secrets) was in the process of increasing his power. The Knights were given a location, in the middle of deep space, and a vague warning about "the Purifiers need to be there".
When the Knights get to the location, Malan'tai was drifting still scored from the bio-acid of the Tyranids who killed the place and infested with Daemonettes and minions of Slaanesh. The Purifiers led the way through, with what's described as "a bow wave of cleansing azure flame preceding their advance".
Skip to the end, they strip N'kari of his 'stolen power'(it doesn't say how much more powerful he was made from it, but it hints at it being a pretty hefty upping of his power--and he'd barely found any of the stockpiles of Spirit Stones and he was tossing around Purifiers left and right before his power boost was stripped from him) and banish him, leaving Purifiers on Malan'tai to ensure N'kari cannot return.

It does lead me to wonder though if we'll be seeing tighter Imperial relations with the Eldar, with a few border clashes here and there flaring up.

That would be nice. As they both realize that they rather have more important things to fight...

Oh the irony.... posts = 666

Melissia wrote:That would be nice. As they both realize that they rather have more important things to fight...

Like those damn dirty Tau.



Oh. And the Tyranids. Or Orks. Or Chaos.

Hrmh. There's really a lot they could be fighting together, isn't there?

Indeed. Eldar may not like the filthy humans, but I can certainly see them viewing the Imperium as a shield which is keeping much of the galaxy in check .

Crevab wrote:
Someone told me that FFG expanded on that idea in Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. But the thread 404'd before I could get specifics. So there might be more info in the background of an RPG... maybe

Digging through FFG material... not seeing it...

Kanluwen wrote:
For the Inquisition, who maintains regular contact with the Eldar and can even call for a parlay?
It's far less out of character

Only for a radical inquisitor. Remember that a puritan would sooner cut out their own tongue then speak to a xeno. Remember that the Inquisition is also the same organization that puts whole planets to the torch for parlaying with xenos rather then automatically shooting them.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's why the Tau attacked the Imperial worlds, to get me back my cookie. It was worth it.

So much death in return for a cookie? You have a strange sense of priorities.

In your response to my response on the word "forced" you used the word "forced"...Would you rather have the life-eater virus dropped on your head, or live out a long, happy life, minus a child? There are lots of happy people who don't have children.

The life-eater virus is only used in extreme situations, not in standard genocide situations. It would be like being executed or having a long, not necessarily happy life ruled over by xeno species that treats you as second-class (at best) citizens. Either than or a flesh-eater virus or succumbing to the influence of Chaos and condemning an entire planet to become pawns to the whim of Daemons.

With the V-bombing several worlds for 'Da trooper, C.S. Goto did it. Nuff said. But never the less, it is canon. It was in tha BR Omni.

What was the Stormtrooper supposed to have seen or know?

Kanluwen wrote:I'm surprised that people are so upset over this, but fail to raise an eyebrow at the fact that the Grey Knights are currently in possession of the Craftworld of Malan'tai.

I assumed that the just went there to stop the Daemons from getting stronger from feasting on the souls within Soulstones, and possibly gain Eldar technology remnants on the Craftworld. It's also means the Eldar owe them a significant favour.

It was not "A cookie", it was "the cookie"

And despite your argument, I would still rather live for another ~60/70 years without a child than have my face melted by the single most powerful micro-organisms in the entire wh40k universe.

The storm-trooper fought alongside the BR against the Alpha Legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:That would be nice. As they both realize that they rather have more important things to fight...

Like those damn dirty Tau.



Oh. And the Tyranids. Or Orks. Or Chaos.

Hrmh. There's really a lot they could be fighting together, isn't there?

If the Imperium were going to take an on-going ally from amongst the Xenos of the Milky Way, it would probably be the Tau, as they are the most reasonable race.

In Path of the Warrior, the Eldar attacked an Imperial world because a possible future (one amongst uncountable trillions) had the IG regiments of that planets attacking them. One. Amongst. Trillions.
Also, that book showed us just how arrogant and hedonistic even non-chaos Eldar can be.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
For the Inquisition, who maintains regular contact with the Eldar and can even call for a parlay?
It's far less out of character

Only for a radical inquisitor. Remember that a puritan would sooner cut out their own tongue then speak to a xeno. Remember that the Inquisition is also the same organization that puts whole planets to the torch for parlaying with xenos rather then automatically shooting them.

The Conclave of Isha begs to differ.

I can't actually think of the Inquisition torching a whole planet, simply for parlaying with the Eldar or even the Tau.
Do they remove the biggest offenders? Yeah.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
For the Inquisition, who maintains regular contact with the Eldar and can even call for a parlay?
It's far less out of character

Only for a radical inquisitor. Remember that a puritan would sooner cut out their own tongue then speak to a xeno. Remember that the Inquisition is also the same organization that puts whole planets to the torch for parlaying with xenos rather then automatically shooting them.

The Conclave of Isha begs to differ.

I can't actually think of the Inquisition torching a whole planet, simply for parlaying with the Eldar or even the Tau.
Do they remove the biggest offenders? Yeah.

The Inquisition has done much,much worse.

But an example of them torching a planet for little/no reason, in Savage Scars, V-bombs were launched at a Tau planet, but it was a Tau planet where all the xenos were already killed by the forces of the Astartes, Titanicus, and IG. They literally fired death at a planet because aliens had walked on it.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, where the feth is everyone getting this business with Tau and sterilization?

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. The Tau ending heavily hinted that the humans were sterilized and generally oppressed.

So, wait, the Non-canon ending of a non-GW/FFG/BL product that only hints that something might have taken place because human population of the planet declined afterward is the basis of all this idiocy?


Feth, seriously, that makes what Matt Ward did to GK look intelligent.

its cannon its also been talked about in some of the novels, Dawn of war fluff is approved by GW, if they had extermintated the tau early on the Imperium would have saved alot of humans.

The concept of moving the Eldar to be more friendly to humanity is rather ironic. Anyone who was around in 2nd ed will remember that they actualy had this sort of alliance between the 2 factions. When the Eldar 3rd edition codex came out, GW specificaly made efforts to move the Eldar to a more aloof, enigmatic, self serving race. They didn't like that the Eldar had a reputation as a "good guy" race.

Cannibal wrote:The concept of moving the Eldar to be more friendly to humanity is rather ironic. Anyone who was around in 2nd ed will remember that they actually had this sort of alliance between the 2 factions. When the Eldar 3rd edition codex came out, GW specifically made efforts to move the Eldar to a more aloof, enigmatic, self serving race. They didn't like that the Eldar had a reputation as a "good guy" race.

And you'll remember that every "alliance" we've seen since 3rd edition between the Eldar and Imperium has really been furthering the Eldar's goal of survival.

There's nothing wrong with the Eldar being "friendly" to humanity.
After all, does it really hurt to be nice to a giant walking meatshield that also does a great job distracting Daemons wanting to eat your souls?

Wow - the new background in C: GK seems like such a train wreck.

If I didn't need this codex for my 'count as' Alpha Legion cell (Oh the irony!), I don't think I'd pick it up at all!

Alpharius wrote:Wow - the new background in C: GK seems like such a train wreck.

If I didn't need this codex for my 'count as' Alpha Legion cell (Oh the irony!), I don't think I'd pick it up at all!

Are you serious? I agree. We should make our own Grey Knight lore!

Alpharius wrote:Wow - the new background in C: GK seems like such a train wreck.

If I didn't need this codex for my 'count as' Alpha Legion cell (Oh the irony!), I don't think I'd pick it up at all!

It's really not though.

Some of the background "seems like such a train wreck" simply because it's stuff that really should have been saved for an Ordo Xenos book, not the Grey Knights book.

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wow - the new background in C: GK seems like such a train wreck.

If I didn't need this codex for my 'count as' Alpha Legion cell (Oh the irony!), I don't think I'd pick it up at all!

It's really not though.

Some of the background "seems like such a train wreck" simply because it's stuff that really should have been saved for an Ordo Xenos book, not the Grey Knights book.

Like the Jokaero? And the other Xenos stuff? Yeah Grey Knights prided themselves for using Eldar stuff not other alien tech.

I really wish in the Ordo Xenos book there is an option to take Deathwatch XD.

Plus it can be fixed by just rewriting it so it sounds better.

I've seen many "rewrites" of existing fluff.

And I can honestly say I'd rather have C.S. Goto than a community based rewrite.

Well, it kinda makes sense for the Deamon Hunters to be friendly with the Eldar, don't they have the black library filled with knowledge on chaos?

Kanluwen wrote:I've seen many "rewrites" of existing fluff.

And I can honestly say I'd rather have C.S. Goto than a community based rewrite.

Yes, my god, could you imagine! It would be horrible! THe nightmare!

Except that's what we did with BFG FAQ2010 to a degree, and other then the Space Marine Lance and Chaos Light Cruiser flame wars, didn't come out that bad. Mind you, it also wasn't a re-write of existing canon fluff (mostly) but a re-write of fan fluff so that GW could use it without having to actually credit the original authors.

I believe this might be Matt Ward's M.O.

calgar 2.5 wrote:I believe this might be Matt Ward's M.O.

YES! ROFL fething YES!



EDIT: Speaking of /tg/ there's thread there on GKs as Malal aligned CSMs. Thoughts?

I could beleive that. Malal loves fighting the other gods in inconspicuous ways...and the GKs would be perfect for that.

With exterminatus they harm the IoM, with combat they hurt the other gods...makes sense.

They cannot use anything related to Malal, as the owner has the rights to it not GW.

Kanluwen wrote:They cannot use anything related to Malal, as the owner has the rights to it not GW.

GW has money. They should use it, and buy the rights. What's the owner gonna do with it? He can't use it since it's part of 40k...

I've always wondered why GW didn't just solve the issue with a big pile of stinking money.

After all, the writers incessantly add oblique references to Malal.

yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Kanluwen wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Thats your opinion, and cannot be proven or denied because it is, again, only your opinion. Others view it as susbtantially over the top as you call it. Frankly given the number of posts to that effect there is merit to it.

Personally, and of course this is my opinion, I became annoyed at the actual writing style which strikes me as amateurish.
*Too much discussion of spells and hexes in place of technology (spells? What are these guys-warlocks?)
*Too much heh heh GK Bob already planned for this heh heh and dropped X new unit to save the day heh heh heh
*The new writing doesn't seem to carry over the theme of "this is a really desperate situation here and we're fighting against nightmares" as well as the old older fluff-again due in large part to the above. Some of the wiritng almost sounds like the GK are now a bunch of eldar farseers.
*The whole "we're the BEST!!! AROUND!!! (intro 80s training montage) except for these guys who are even better, and these guys who are even bestest better and purest purer and don't even hang out with other GKs 'cause they're like not pure you knowz is a bit strange.

*Old Fluff Super GK gives life to temporarily stop Angron. A whole slew of GK's give their lives to do this.
*New Fluff GK gets bored, kicks Mortarian's keister. Kick Fateweaver's keister, Kick blah blah keister. Really? Really?

Troy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Thats your opinion, and cannot be proven or denied because it is, again, only your opinion. Others view it as susbtantially over the top as you call it. Frankly given the number of posts to that effect there is merit to it.

Personally, and of course this is my opinion, I became annoyed at the actual writing style which strikes me as amateurish.
*Too much discussion of spells and hexes in place of technology (spells? What are these guys-warlocks?)

Have you ever read anything about the Imperium?
We're talking about a society where if your gun jams, you stop and offer a prayer while performing a ritual to unjam it.
Warp abilities are also referred to as hexes or spells as necessary, but usually they're just not called anything except "Drawing upon the Warp".
The only reason we see specific names associated with 'spells' is for gameplay purposes.

*Too much heh heh GK Bob already planned for this heh heh and dropped X new unit to save the day heh heh heh
*The new writing doesn't seem to carry over the theme of "this is a really desperate situation here and we're fighting against nightmares" as well as the old older fluff-again due in large part to the above. Some of the wiritng almost sounds like the GK are now a bunch of eldar farseers.

Because the Farseers and Grey Knights tend to work in the same general methods.
They both utilize prophecy to find out when/where something will happen and try to proactively stop it before it occurs.

*The whole "we're the BEST!!! AROUND!!! (intro 80s training montage) except for these guys who are even better, and these guys who are even bestest better and purest purer and don't even hang out with other GKs 'cause they're like not pure you knowz is a bit strange.

You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".
Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin. They're the 'knight in shining armor, battling pure evil'--but with the flavor of 40k meaning that they sometimes have to put the greater good of humanity above their own ideals.

*Old Fluff Super GK gives life to temporarily stop Angron. A whole slew of GK's give their lives to do this.

Not "temporarily stop Angron".
They banished him back to the Warp. Angron's a Daemon Primarch and had a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters, which is the whole reason Grey Knights were there in the first place.

*New Fluff GK gets bored, kicks Mortarian's keister. Kick Fateweaver's keister, Kick blah blah keister. Really? Really?

And once again, we get this crap repeated.
Draigo didn't "kick Mortarion's keister" entirely "alone" in the sense that he walked up and threw down.
Mortarion had already slain the Grey Knight's "Supreme Grand Master", and his bodyguard was engaged with the rest of an entire Grey Knights strike force there to put down Mortarion's shenanigans.
Draigo broke through the bodyguard and dropped Mortarion, "striking the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many longer years before he can enter the mortal realm once more."--which says that he did not kill Mortarion but rather Mortarion was banished.

And for the record?
Fateweaver and Mortarion are pushovers for the Grey Knights.
They're both Daemons, and the Grey Knights possess their true names. Names are power when it comes to Daemons, because it means they can be banished. Mortarion, also, in life was a pushover for most of the Astartes. His real aptitude was in his calculating mind and sheer stubbornness. He was a tactician, not a fighter by all accounts.

Angron, however, being effectively more 'mortal' than Daemon(yes, he's ascended to Daemonhood but he's also protected from psychic attack by din of him being marked by Khorne) is a different story than those two even when it comes to the Grey Knights fighting them. They're looking at a bloodthirsty combat monster who could fight every other Primarch to a standstill.
Of course he gets higher priority and more forces thrown at him than some putz who liked to dress in hoods and carry a scythe.

Kanluwen wrote:
You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".

Actually, most RPGs have a sort of Manichean black and white view of purity with possibly a very, very, thin sliver of grey in between.


I will, however, leave 'which primarch is more bad assed' on /tg/ where it belongs.

Further, Kan, you, so far, are more or less the only one defending this turd sandwich, and I've seen you try and defend CS Goto on occasion, so pardon me is I don't buy into it.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".

Actually, most RPGs have a sort of Manichean black and white view of purity with possibly a very, very, thin sliver of grey in between.

And Paladins in most RPG settings have varying levels of "purity" based upon the deity they're devoted to.
But you left out the important part of my statement which was that "Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin--but with the flavor of 40k".

I will, however, leave 'which primarch is more bad assed' on /tg/ where it belongs.

Actually, I'm going by what we've seen in the Horus Heresy novels.
Mortarion's the only one who really wasn't considered a threat by the rest of the Primarchs when it comes down to being in combat.
Even the Death Guard knew that he wasn't better than most Astartes when it came to skill at arms.
The only big thing that Mortarion had going for him, was that he was a well-known strategist and could be put on par with Corax and the Night Haunter when it comes to the usage of psychology in combat. Add in that he was more known for his gunplay, wasn't a psyker, etc and you get a pretty putzy Primarch when it comes down to it.

Now, does that mean he won't be shredding his way through Guardsmen or Astartes when he's Ascended to Daemonhood?
No, of course not.
But he's still a Daemon and he's still a putzy Primarch who got his arse handed to him by an Astartes before his ascension. The Grey Knights would eat him alive.

Further, Kan, you, so far, are more or less the only one defending this turd sandwich,

This "turd sandwich" isn't actually one though. Not on the level that the whining masses are putting it out as, and it certainly isn't the only glaring ridiculous thing within the book.
Am I saying that "This is the greatest piece of background, ever, and everyone should be forced to read it and write a report on it because it's amazing!"?
No.
I'm saying that it's not as terrible as people have been saying it is.

and I've seen you try and defend CS Goto on occasion, so pardon me is I don't buy into it.

And you're full of crap because I've never defended C.S. Goto. I've made it a point to make it known that I hate the man's guts and feel he's a pompous git who should have had his books gathered and burned, along with being blacklisted from ever writing again.

The closest I said to "defending CS Goto" was in this thread where I said that I would "rather have C.S. Goto writing the fiction than some fan rewrite"--and I stand by that statement. Most of the fanwritten material I've read is terrible and it makes Goto or Ward look like Shakespeare. It almost always tends to be some kind of absurd justification for the handwritten Codex that the submitter wants us to 'Ooh' and 'Ahhh' over.

While occasionally you do get gems in the rough, most fanwork is just rough.

Kanluwen wrote:
And Paladins in most RPG settings have varying levels of "purity" based upon the deity they're devoted to.
But you left out the important part of my statement which was that "Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin--but with the flavor of 40k".

Yeah, but you could excuse just about anything by saying 'but with 40k flavor' (and it's 11 original herbs and Primarchs)

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, I'm going by what we've seen in the Horus Heresy novels.
Mortarion's the only one who really wasn't considered a threat by the rest of the Primarchs when it comes down to being in combat.
Even the Death Guard knew that he wasn't better than most Astartes when it came to skill at arms.
The only big thing that Mortarion had going for him, was that he was a well-known strategist and could be put on par with Corax and the Night Haunter when it comes to the usage of psychology in combat. Add in that he was more known for his gunplay, wasn't a psyker, etc and you get a pretty putzy Primarch when it comes down to it.

You left out that even before he turned, he had a thing for poison weapon that gave even Astartes resistance to toxins a run for their money. (Flight of the Eisenstien)

Kanluwen wrote:
This "turd sandwich" isn't actually one though. Not on the level that the whining masses are putting it out as, and it certainly isn't the only glaring ridiculous thing within the book.
Am I saying that "This is the greatest piece of background, ever, and everyone should be forced to read it and write a report on it because it's amazing!"?
No.
I'm saying that it's not as terrible as people have been saying it is.

No, teleporting landraiders (chronoraiders?) and termies as a troops choice isn't bad at all... The fluff is absurd in this one. 'I walk the warp alone, burning down the garden of Nurgle on my Own, and smashing the entire Inevitable city... I am the Chuck Norris of Space Marines..."

Kanluwen wrote:
And you're full of crap because I've never defended C.S. Goto. I've made it a point to make it known that I hate the man's guts and feel he's a pompous git who should have had his books gathered and burned, along with being blacklisted from ever writing again.

Except when you were agreeing with someone who using Goto as a reference in a femmarines thread, IIRC.

Kanluwen wrote:
Most of the fanwritten material I've read is terrible and it makes Goto or Ward look like Shakespeare. It almost always tends to be some kind of absurd justification for the handwritten Codex that the submitter wants us to 'Ooh' and 'Ahhh' over.

While occasionally you do get gems in the rough, most fanwork is just rough.

Not sure if I should take this as a not too subtle veiled insult or simply being uninformed...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Yeah, but you could excuse just about anything by saying 'but with 40k flavor' (and it's 11 original herbs and Primarchs)

Of course

You left out that even before he turned, he had a thing for poison weapon that gave even Astartes resistance to toxins a run for their money. (Flight of the Eisenstein)

It doesn't explicitly say that he had a poisoned weapon, but he was known to inhale the "toxic vapours" from his homeworld which even the Astartes had problems breathing.

The whole plague weapons being used at Isstvan was more Horus' idea though.

No, teleporting landraiders (chronoraiders?) and termies as a troops choice isn't bad at all...

"Teleporting Land Raiders" is only through an upgrade(Warp Stabilisation Field, which is also available to Dreadnoughts in the Grey Knights book ), and it requires a Librarian to use a specific power(The Summoning). It's by no means a standard thing.
Terminators as Troops Choice is far from being "bad".
Grey Knights were originally introduced as Terminator armor only anyways, so it's just going back to the basics.

The fluff is absurd in this one. 'I walk the warp alone, burning down the garden of Nurgle on my Own, and smashing the entire Inevitable city... I am the Chuck Norris of Space Marines..."

And all of the damage he does is repaired when he turns away. It's Sisyphus, but with Terminator Armour and a mullet.

Except when you were agreeing with someone who using Goto as a reference in a femmarines thread, IIRC.

I don't remember that.
But it may have been me agreeing that Goto has written some serious crap, such as Eldar Farseers(including Eldrad) being secret worshipers of Slaanesh and the Eldar running a child molestation cult.

Or it may have been me agreeing about the fact that there's mention of a 'female marine' who was created through sorcery in the book "Storm of Iron".

Not sure if I should take this as a not too subtle veiled insult or simply being uninformed...

It has nothing to do with being uninformed or insulting.

It's a simple statement of observational fact on my part.
Most fanwritten material that's put out there is the work of people who can't write, but want to express their love for the setting.

Every so often, you'll find good fanfiction actually worth reading. More often than not though, you get fanfiction that makes Matt Ward's stuff look tame.

And once again, we get this crap repeated.

And you're full of crap

You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Troy wrote:
You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Word filters prevent me from saying anything more weighty.

And I find that the term 'crap' gets my point across better than 'gak', which is also the autofiltered replacement of a commonly used 4 letter word.

But it's good to know that you can't actually refute any of the points I put across and are resorting to grade school tactics.

Or just introduce the new 5th choas god, Nnalal

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:
You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Word filters prevent me from saying anything more weighty.

And I find that the term 'crap' gets my point across better than 'gak', which is also the autofiltered replacement of a commonly used 4 letter word.

But it's good to know that you can't actually refute any of the points I put across and are resorting to grade school tactics.

Wait, you're the one playing around with crap, saying others are using grade school tactics? I am suitably impressed.

@ Kanluwen

I'm going to step outside the flock and totally agree with your point!

In another thread on this point, I have to say, I was carried on the tides of "hate" for the codex, and before you could blink found myself aligning myself with those who "hate".....however, like most things, once I had a chance to read the actual codex it's not that bad!

People are overly dramatic about things, and those "whiners" are, IMHO, exactly that...whining!

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Complaining about how childish the writing is because it doesn't use Science, but refers to "Magic".....are these people for real?

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

You ever laugh at those guys who spend hours arguing whether or not Starship Enterprise should be able to reach Warp Factor 12 or not? This is the same thing.

Look, don't get me wrong, I like a good story like the next guy, and I know the value of coherant fluff.....I applaud settings like Dune, and Star Wars and Mass Effect, etc etc.....but at the same time, if GW can't be bothered to maintain some kind of solid basis for their fluff then I'm just gonna laugh and move on....it's not worth it, they're not worth it.

If GW doesn't care about their "Sci Fi" setting why should I bother staying up nights worrying about it? I'll treat their work like Walt Disney.....basically its a joke, end of story.

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

BaronIveagh wrote:I've always wondered why GW didn't just solve the issue with a big pile of stinking money.

After all, the writers incessantly add oblique references to Malal.

Yeah, with ~50 CAD for ten itty bitty pieces of plastic that sell out super quick and probably cost less than nothing to make...They've gotta be rolling in cash...

Delephont wrote:

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

...

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

LOL That is very much NOT why it irritates me. There's a WHOLE 'nother spectrum of reason that I'm irritated that Matt Ward was allowed to do this.

Delephont wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

You ever laugh at those guys who spend hours arguing whether or not Starship Enterprise should be able to reach Warp Factor 12 or not? This is the same thing.

Look, don't get me wrong, I like a good story like the next guy, and I know the value of coherant fluff.....I applaud settings like Dune, and Star Wars and Mass Effect, etc etc.....but at the same time, if GW can't be bothered to maintain some kind of solid basis for their fluff then I'm just gonna laugh and move on....it's not worth it, they're not worth it.

If GW doesn't care about their "Sci Fi" setting why should I bother staying up nights worrying about it? I'll treat their work like Walt Disney.....basically its a joke, end of story.

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

From what I have seen, no other Sci-fi universe is NEARLY as in-depth as 40k, not even close. Ever try to explain the specifics of 40k to someone who knows nothing about it? I'm pretty sure there are better ways to spend your WEEKEND. Plus you're talking to people who have spent hundreds/thousands on wh40k material, and HUGE portions of their time. PROUD GEEKS UNITE!!!

WE CAPTURED THEM FOR CHAOS!

Hey, the GK are heroes because of this story. the SOB weren't in the kitchen, and they paid the price for it. That'll learn 'em

...what? SOMEONE has to make The God-Emperor's Sandwiches.
(Yes, this is a joke. PLEASE realize this is a joke)

Psyker sammich! It all makes sense now

... I might have found that joke funny, but for some reason I can still remember that marine's wife screaming 'Now who's in the kitchen?' as they hauled her away. She got off. Abused spouse.

The real irony was that there were enough chunks of him to fill a sandwich bag. They needed a mop for the rest.

Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag. Everyone knows that if you want a sandwich it should be prefaced with the word "please" and done politely along with an offer to cook dinner (fire up the grill!) doesn't hurt. Unless you're the emperor in which case its, 'make me a sandwich and deliver it to me on the golden toilet or we all get eaten by daemons!'

Anyway, thanks for correcting me on the Sororitas fluff a couple of pages back. In the end my opinion on the Grey knights will likely end up being on hiatus until I get a hold of some models and start painting them.

And for the record?
Fateweaver and Mortarion are pushovers for the Grey Knights.
They're both Daemons, and the Grey Knights possess their true names. Names are power when it comes to Daemons, because it means they can be banished. Mortarion, also, in life was a pushover for most of the Astartes. His real aptitude was in his calculating mind and sheer stubbornness. He was a tactician, not a fighter by all accounts.

Angron, however, being effectively more 'mortal' than Daemon(yes, he's ascended to Daemonhood but he's also protected from psychic attack by din of him being marked by Khorne) is a different story than those two even when it comes to the Grey Knights fighting them. They're looking at a bloodthirsty combat monster who could fight every other Primarch to a standstill.
Of course he gets higher priority and more forces thrown at him than some putz who liked to dress in hoods and carry a scythe

Good to know Primarchs are pushovers
I mean a son of the Emperor, what can be considered to be a demigod essentially, with powers increased by the Chaos gods, is a pushover.

Its nice to know that just being a Grey knight automatically means that Daemons lose
I was always under the assumption that they are trained to fight them , but even with that training it was a uphill battle
Didn't know that because you apparentlly train for fighting daemons, that it means you can just roflstomp anyone out of existence

Thank you for the clarification

Actually having read the book though , its not that bad, but there are certainly wtf moments littered throughout it
I actually liked some of Draigos story, specifically his fight with M'Kar, it definitely gave off the image of an epic battle
Although for the life of me why Ward didn't stop at him being thrown into the warp and reappearing in realspace I'll never know

Coteaz was a good read, troop backgrounds were nice and by god the artwork was actually very well done
It actually made the dreadknight look good throughout the book with that artwork


Edit: The more i read this codex, the more I'm liking it
I like the way its sets out, i like some of the background here and there, I like the amazing range of choices available( I'm a CSM player so its kinda like a revelation to me honestly, I've never seen so many choices)
To be honest I'm just gonna ignore the bits of fluff that are really out of place and move past them, they are bad, but they aren't so bad that I can't ignore them
It's really not that bad of a codex I gotta say

Luco wrote:Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag.

No, he was good sized, but I'm told she spent about a half hour 'tenderizing' his quivering bits with 45 pound rock sledge from the tool shed. The neighbors gave her about twenty minuets of screaming and pounding holes in the floor and 'then' called the police.

Seems they didn't care she killed him, but got tired of the noise.

Asuron wrote:Edit: The more i read this codex, the more I'm liking it
I like the way its sets out, i like some of the background here and there, I like the amazing range of choices available( I'm a CSM player so its kinda like a revelation to me honestly, I've never seen so many choices)
To be honest I'm just gonna ignore the bits of fluff that are really out of place and move past them, they are bad, but they aren't so bad that I can't ignore them
It's really not that bad of a codex I gotta say

Although his fluff can be Goto-esque, his crunch is filled with cheesy goodness. His books are filled with fun and viable options. I hope he gets to write the Chaos codex, as his over-the-top crunch (and perhaps even fluff) would be a good match for them.

I'm not sure who I would pick to write the Sisters of Battle. Maybe Kelly?

With Eldar, I'm willing to roll the dice and let Cruddace have a shot at it.

I think Kelly is writing the SOB codex.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Luco wrote:Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag.

No, he was good sized, but I'm told she spent about a half hour 'tenderizing' his quivering bits with 45 pound rock sledge from the tool shed. The neighbors gave her about twenty minuets of screaming and pounding holes in the floor and 'then' called the police.

Seems they didn't care she killed him, but got tired of the noise.

That's the neighbors for ya. Apathetic almost to a fault until you bother them.

im2randomghgh wrote:From what I have seen, no other Sci-fi universe is NEARLY as in-depth as 40k, not even close. Ever try to explain the specifics of 40k to someone who knows nothing about it? I'm pretty sure there are better ways to spend your WEEKEND. Plus you're talking to people who have spent hundreds/thousands on wh40k material, and HUGE portions of their time. PROUD GEEKS UNITE!!!

Sorry!?!....I nearly swallowed my tongue when I read your "report" on modern Sci Fi.....are you for real?

Ok, first of all, WH40K has been going for what 30+ years....ok, now Infinity has been running for around 6 years now, and it has more depth and background then WH40K. See, you mustn't confuse quantity with quality....no Sci Fi setting, except maybe Mech-Warrior can compete with GW in terms of published fluff, but quality, quality and quality is the key.

You want to explain WH40K to a stranger in one sentence....its Lord of the Rings in Space, with a sprinkling of Terminator, Aliens and the Bible.....done!

If you feel WH40K is the most "in-depth" Sci Fi out there, then you need to get out more and look around, you'll be in for a surprise....and you know what, I kept my examples above to Sci Fi wargames, in respect to your actual comment about "Sci Fi universe" then here is a list of more in depth settings:

Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

I'm sure there are more!!

Halo is more in-depth? Really? I need to find me some reading materials then. I like the material they have for it but I didn't think it was more-so than 40k. Star Wars definitely, Mechwarrior is also a definite.

I was once told that Canadians were supposed to be 'polite'.

From some of the posts of the Canuckistani flagged members, I'd never have guessed it.

If thine fluff offends thee, then pluck it out.

Use what you like, discard the rest. This is how it is. The codices are ALL written as propaganda (although it's BAD propaganda).
EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD IS A LIE kinda stuff.

I've had the models for over 10 years.
Now, I get a codex that can hold its own against the bleeding marines and the flea-bitten marines and suddenly the sky is falling?

As for 40k having depth?

You do realise how much of the 'foundation' of 40k was homaged on the bones of the classics, right?
Clambering over the DUNEs of pulp fiction, the DEATHWORLDs (Good job copyrighting that, GW - Harry Harrison has that one sewn up).

Infinity is a young game, yes, but it has the last three decades of cyberpunk and posthumanism to draw from and find its own uses for things.
Every meal is a banquet.

withershadow wrote:
Although his fluff can be Goto-esque, his crunch is filled with cheesy goodness. His books are filled with fun and viable options. I hope he gets to write the Chaos codex, as his over-the-top crunch (and

No he won't be doing it, JustDave is writing it on behalf of GW

Check it out

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340878.page

It's awesome!

Meh, not a big fan of homebrews. That one actually has some great rules, but is nowhere near broken enough to hang with Ward's offerings.

Delephont wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:From what I have seen, no other Sci-fi universe is NEARLY as in-depth as 40k, not even close. Ever try to explain the specifics of 40k to someone who knows nothing about it? I'm pretty sure there are better ways to spend your WEEKEND. Plus you're talking to people who have spent hundreds/thousands on wh40k material, and HUGE portions of their time. PROUD GEEKS UNITE!!!

Sorry!?!....I nearly swallowed my tongue when I read your "report" on modern Sci Fi.....are you for real?

Ok, first of all, WH40K has been going for what 30+ years....ok, now Infinity has been running for around 6 years now, and it has more depth and background then WH40K. See, you mustn't confuse quantity with quality....no Sci Fi setting, except maybe Mech-Warrior can compete with GW in terms of published fluff, but quality, quality and quality is the key.

You want to explain WH40K to a stranger in one sentence....its Lord of the Rings in Space, with a sprinkling of Terminator, Aliens and the Bible.....done!

If you feel WH40K is the most "in-depth" Sci Fi out there, then you need to get out more and look around, you'll be in for a surprise....and you know what, I kept my examples above to Sci Fi wargames, in respect to your actual comment about "Sci Fi universe" then here is a list of more in depth settings:

Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

I'm sure there are more!!

Mech-warrior...arguable but plausible enough,

but all of these:
Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

Are less in-depth.

The only one I'm willing to accept fully and unarguably is Star Trek...They have their own language written for it...that some people actually speak...

I assumed you were actually joking with Dune, Mass-effect and Halo...

im2randomghgh wrote:Mech-warrior...arguable but plausible enough,

but all of these:
Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

Are less in-depth.

The only one I'm willing to accept fully and unarguably is Star Trek...They have their own language written for it...that some people actually speak...

I assumed you were actually joking with Dune, Mass-effect and Halo...

There are times when someone says something so stupid that there really is nothing more to be said.

If you really believe that WH40K has more depth than Dune....then there really is nothing more to be said to you on this subject.....I mean, forget everything else on the list, if you stumble at Dune then theres no hope for you.

My parting point before dirtying myself further by discussing this with you.....DUNE has been classed as the Lord of the Rings of the Sci Fi world.

You sir deserve WH40K and WH40K deserves you.

Delephont wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Mech-warrior...arguable but plausible enough,

but all of these:
Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

Are less in-depth.

The only one I'm willing to accept fully and unarguably is Star Trek...They have their own language written for it...that some people actually speak...

I assumed you were actually joking with Dune, Mass-effect and Halo...

1. There are times when someone says something so stupid that there really is nothing more to be said.

2. If you really believe that WH40K has more depth than Dune....then there really is nothing more to be said to you on this subject.....I mean, forget everything else on the list, if you stumble at Dune then theres no hope for you.

3. My parting point before dirtying myself further by discussing this with you.....DUNE has been classed as the Lord of the Rings of the Sci Fi world.

4. You sir deserve WH40K and WH40K deserves you.

1. don't be so harsh on yourself

2. Dune isn't even vaguely comparable to the depth of wh40k. The shallowness and dryness of Dune completely summarizes why sci-fi enthusiasts are often mocked.

3. Point being? Every article ever written ever has one of two things: Bias to one degree or other, or an author who managed to avoid bias by completely not caring and as a result did a rather poor job of writing.

4. Thanks for the complement

If you dislike 40k so much don't post in the 40k area!

As much as I hate Star Wars currently, I am going to have to say that it is way more in depth then 40K.

Well thats a give in. But Halo is most definitley not more in depth. They may have a Halo "Bible" at Bungie, but they don't have 20+ years of fluff. And this just means better quality, not quantity as opposed to Halo.

Lord Scythican wrote:As much as I hate Star Wars currently, I am going to have to say that it is way more in depth then 40K.

Not even close.

There are more Star Wars books, but at the same time, not as much fluff, since a lot of it is repetitive or series based.

All 40k books are different planets, different forces, different names etc.

The scale of 40k is so much bigger comparing them would be foolish to the tenth degree.

Star Wars was just a bunch of pretty movies.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Dune isn't even vaguely comparable to the depth of wh40k. The shallowness and dryness of Dune completely summarizes why sci-fi enthusiasts are often mocked.

Haha, is this the nerd totem pole? "Fans of DUNE are way less kewl than 40k fans!" I assure you, the legions of fat sweaty nerds with a pompous attitude and an undeserved sense of accomplishment over their choice of hobby provide just as much fodder for mockery.

40k has more quantity of crap going on than DUNE, but the central themes and struggles of the character make 40K look like a Saturday morning cartoon... which it is, and which is why we like it.

"dryness of Dune"

I c wut you did thar

Maybe if we gave all the Jokaero a typewriter they might eventually write a better GK codex. It has to work better than the current method GW is using.

im2randomghgh wrote:

The scale of 40k is so much bigger comparing them would be foolish to the tenth degree.

Star Wars was just a bunch of pretty movies.

Not even close.

Just saying it is a bunch of pretty movies shows you have no clue as to the scope of it all.

For example, Warhammer has 9 specifically named "A planets". Star Wars has 274 specifically named "A Planets". My fluff is bigger than yours!

Actually, that depends on if you accept the Expanded Universe as canon.

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The scale of 40k is so much bigger comparing them would be foolish to the tenth degree.

Star Wars was just a bunch of pretty movies.

Not even close.

Just saying it is a bunch of pretty movies shows you have no clue as to the scope of it all.

For example, Warhammer has 9 specifically named "A planets". Star Wars has 274 specifically named "A Planets". My fluff is bigger than yours!

Warhammer 40k has given names to thousands of planets. 274 is like a warm-up.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The scale of 40k is so much bigger comparing them would be foolish to the tenth degree.

Star Wars was just a bunch of pretty movies.

Not even close.

Just saying it is a bunch of pretty movies shows you have no clue as to the scope of it all.

For example, Warhammer has 9 specifically named "A planets". Star Wars has 274 specifically named "A Planets". My fluff is bigger than yours!

Warhammer 40k has given names to thousands of planets. 274 is like a warm-up.

Seriously? Did you even read that post? 9 planets that start with the letter A versus 274 planets that start with the letter A. Do I really need to compare the rest of the Alphabet?

Oh I get it. You think Star Wars is 6 movies and a crappy TV show.

@Lord Scythican
"a planet" sorry for misinterpreting that...

*sarcasm*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The scale of 40k is so much bigger comparing them would be foolish to the tenth degree.

Star Wars was just a bunch of pretty movies.

Not even close.

Just saying it is a bunch of pretty movies shows you have no clue as to the scope of it all.

For example, Warhammer has 9 specifically named "A planets". Star Wars has 274 specifically named "A Planets". My fluff is bigger than yours!

Warhammer 40k has given names to thousands of planets. 274 is like a warm-up.

Seriously? Did you even read that post? 9 planets that start with the letter A versus 274 planets that start with the letter A. Do I really need to compare the rest of the Alphabet?

Oh I get it. You think Star Wars is 6 movies and a crappy TV show.

I kno that it's more than those media, it's just that, aside from movies, crappy t.v. show and videogames, no one gives a feth about it.

P.S. There are actually 50 star wars planets that start with "A" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_planets_%28A%E2%80%93B%29

im2randomghgh wrote:
I kno that it's more than those media, it's just that, aside from movies, crappy t.v. show and videogames, no one gives a feth about it.

Well thats true. I can't argue there. I used to really like Star Wars but has really went downhill. However looking at your post, I think I may know what you are missing. The printed media. That have close to 400 novels, and probably twice that in comics. Now while a few hundred are less than great, the last 50 or so books have been really good. The comics are really good too.

In addition, the fluff that is written in the old WEG D6 RPG is on par with warhammers. So honestly, by looking at what you have probably been exposed too, I think your opinion is valid. However there is a lot more than that out there. There is way more in the novels, rpg, and comics than in any of the movies and games.

Also I see what happened with the a planets! Ha I guess you were thinking something was wrong with me...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I see your mistake with the number of planets. Again it is about what you have been exposed too. Wikipedia has next to no info on Star Wars and there is a reason for that. It is because of Wookiepedia...


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_planets_A

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
I kno that it's more than those media, it's just that, aside from movies, crappy t.v. show and videogames, no one gives a feth about it.

Well thats true. I can't argue there. I used to really like Star Wars but has really went downhill. However looking at your post, I think I may know what you are missing. The printed media. That have close to 400 novels, and probably twice that in comics. Now while a few hundred are less than great, the last 50 or so books have been really good. The comics are really good too.

In addition, the fluff that is written in the old WEG D6 RPG is on par with warhammers. So honestly, by looking at what you have probably been exposed too, I think your opinion is valid. However there is a lot more than that out there. There is way more in the novels, rpg, and comics than in any of the movies and games.

Also I see what happened with the a planets! Ha I guess you were thinking something was wrong with me...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I see your mistake with the number of planets. Again it is about what you have been exposed too. Wikipedia has next to no info on Star Wars and there is a reason for that. It is because of Wookiepedia...


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_planets_A

I am actually quite aware of the books, have read 25 or so SW books, I even mentioned them in one of my posts.

P.S, I think it is worth mentioning that the books I read were those little, ~150 pg books (Feris Olin thing)

P.P.S, completely unrelated, reading The Lost and it's awesome!

Lord Scythican wrote:

Oh I get it. You think Star Wars is 6 movies and a crappy TV show.

Yes, as it helps me avoid such literary abominations as Resident Sith...errrr... Death Troopers....

They wrote a book-a 300 page book- about the hunt for Darth Vader's glove.

Hey, at least Star Wars doesn't rewrite their core original fluff several times over in order to sell new stuff to the right target audience.

micahaphone wrote:They wrote a book-a 300 page book- about the hunt for Darth Vader's glove.

Was it his left one or right one?

micahaphone wrote:Hey, at least Star Wars doesn't rewrite their core original fluff several times over in order to sell new stuff to the right target audience.

This is the problem with the GW side of things, things that have been consistent for many moons suddenly change for no reason and make even less sense than they did originally or makes an already well thought out piece of background terrible.

This is my issues with the Grey Knight codex, it wasn't necessary to add what they did with the Bloodtide and Draigo. If Mr Ward had maybe thought a bit more in the wording he could've turned it into something that quite a proportion of us wouldn't nerdrage against. This might not have been his fault, as I guess GW do proof read their stuff. Say for example, the Sisters knowing that the end was near without sacrifice offered their lives to the Grey Knights, realising the consequences if they did not. An act like that wouldn't tarnish the Grey Knights and it would stand the Sisters as the utmost devout Emperor follower. We don't know if this wasn't the way it did go down, just the current phrasing used seems to suggest that the Grey Knights just killed the Sisters.

Reading Sacrifice by Ben Counter from the new Victories anthology this does tie in with the Codex. Now, I've never read a Grey Knights novel all the way through as I didn't enjoy them that much, but I don't think that anywhere this stuff has been mentioned before. I kinda feel that GW went to Mr Counter and said 'Mr Ward has gone and written something for the younger masses, can you do a short for the oldies to make it fit in with your fluff, we'll give you moneh!!' Sacrificing Psykers to make the wards on armour, Sacrificing a 'good person' to make a bullet, where has this come from suddenly?!

To me all this sullied the name of the Grey Knights, they are supposed to be the purist of the pure and not need blood ritual to make them so. They were the pinnacle of the Astartes because of their faith in the Emperor and it's this reason why they would never falter or fall to Chaos. Blood ritual is the Domain of Khorne.

I'm starting to accept that this is the new breed of 40k, that we're now going from 11 to 12 and the 40k I remember is fading away as everything gets bigger and more powerful, but not necessarily better. I am still going to game and read the fluff, but will keep nerdraging when something blatantly sucks and will keep the old stuff closest to my heart.

I'm just hoping that they do not make a mockery of the established fluff when they do the Chaos Codex.

micahaphone wrote:They wrote a book-a 300 page book- about the hunt for Darth Vader's glove.

You have to tell me where you got that huge paint brush of yours micahaphone. It must make painting so much easier when you can colour everything with the same brush!!!

My point of view:

^^

B30 wrote:My point of view:

^^

Oh man that's awesome, did you draw that yourself?

B30 wrote:My point of view:
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/4/14/209725_md-Grey%20Knights%2C%20Humor%2040k%2C%20Sisters%20Of%20Battle.jpg
^^

That's a thing of beauty. Many thanks for sharing it.

Sounds like the sisters stole the GK's cookies...

Ward=FAIL

im2randomghgh wrote:
I am actually quite aware of the books, have read 25 or so SW books, I even mentioned them in one of my posts.

P.S, I think it is worth mentioning that the books I read were those little, ~150 pg books (Feris Olin thing)

P.P.S, completely unrelated, reading The Lost and it's awesome!

See now you are just getting me back into Star Wars. I was completely happy with hating the Clone Wars and giving up on it, but now I have discovered that you have read those little 150 page books and are unaware of the the awesome ones.

First up you need to check out The New Jedi Order series. A lot of people don't like them, but they are a must if you are following the story of Jacen and Jaina Solo, the kids of Han and Leia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Jedi_Order

After that you get to the really good stuff:
The Legacy of the Force. I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want to spoil it, but these are some really good books.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Force

After that is the Fate of the Jedi series. I haven't finished them myself (due to my dislike of star wars in its current form) but these have remained the only thing good about Star Wars at the moment:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_of_the_jedi


These series are nothing like the Prequels or the crappy TV show.

Lord Harrab wrote:
Oh man that's awesome, did you draw that yourself?

AlexHolker wrote:
That's a thing of beauty. Many thanks for sharing it.

Thanks ^^ Yes, I made it myself. You can find more of my art on my site (see in my sig. There is an "Warhammer &40K" album in the column on the right.

On topic, Demon hunters were an army I started because I had SM minis I didn't use, and because they looked like perfect allies for my main army: Sisters of battle. Also I liked their "desesperately fighting the good fight" aspect.
Now that they're a Mary-sue uber-marines chapter that casualy sacrifice Sisters and use their blood to fight the blood god (wth?), I don't think I will play them again. ^^ Sure, the fluff of the new codex is based on pre-existing fluff, but that doesn't save it from bad writing
And by the way, I've read the codex and forged my own opinion, I'm not surfing the hate-wave ;-)

Lord Scythican wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
I am actually quite aware of the books, have read 25 or so SW books, I even mentioned them in one of my posts.

P.S, I think it is worth mentioning that the books I read were those little, ~150 pg books (Feris Olin thing)

P.P.S, completely unrelated, reading The Lost and it's awesome!

See now you are just getting me back into Star Wars. I was completely happy with hating the Clone Wars and giving up on it, but now I have discovered that you have read those little 150 page books and are unaware of the the awesome ones.

First up you need to check out The New Jedi Order series. A lot of people don't like them, but they are a must if you are following the story of Jacen and Jaina Solo, the kids of Han and Leia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Jedi_Order

After that you get to the really good stuff:
The Legacy of the Force. I don't want to get too much into it because I don't want to spoil it, but these are some really good books.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Force

After that is the Fate of the Jedi series. I haven't finished them myself (due to my dislike of star wars in its current form) but these have remained the only thing good about Star Wars at the moment:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_of_the_jedi


These series are nothing like the Prequels or the crappy TV show.

I have read about 10 large ones (~300-~500pg) and about fourty crappy little ones.

B30 wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:
Oh man that's awesome, did you draw that yourself?

AlexHolker wrote:
That's a thing of beauty. Many thanks for sharing it.

Thanks ^^ Yes, I made it myself. You can find more of my art on my site (see in my sig. There is an "Warhammer &40K" album in the column on the right.

On topic, Demon hunters were an army I started because I had SM minis I didn't use, and because they looked like perfect allies for my main army: Sisters of battle. Also I liked their "desesperately fighting the good fight" aspect.
Now that they're a Mary-sue uber-marines chapter that casualy sacrifice Sisters and use their blood to fight the blood god (wth?), I don't think I will play them again. ^^ Sure, the fluff of the new codex is based on pre-existing fluff, but that doesn't save it from bad writing
And by the way, I've read the codex and forged my own opinion, I'm not surfing the hate-wave ;-)

Ahh but now your surfing the hate wave...... hate wave. By not conforming your conforming.

Just read the "evil" page 15 story in the Grey Knights codex.


And.. I have to agree with that hate its getting, theres just so much wrong with it.

1. Grey knight purity!, they are already supposed to be pure/protected. Butchering innocent "IMPERIAL!!" souls for their blood is supposed to make them purer...blah!

2. killing your allies seems a bit fishy in any situation, especially as they valiantly fought against the daemons/survived that far and were desperately fighting to reclaim the bastion

3. surely such a vile act would actually push them closer to corruption especially with the bloodtide going on, spilling innocent blood etc!

what a bunch of poopy, really that little story could have been done so much better!

Well, part of the problem is that the codex doesn't seem to have the same philosophy as the original GKs. The original imagery was the lone or sorely outnumbered paladin figure of purity against the bloothirsty hordes. Whether he lived or dies is irrelevant, he would tear a swath with his purity and dedication. This was how a lone GK could stand up to a Bloodthirster- not because he had a giant exo suit but because he had a infatiguable spirit and unflinching faith in the Emperor and humanity. The GKs were ruthless when necessary and would mind wipe (and sterilize) an entire population (or chapter) if tainted, but took only the very steps needed- they did not needlessly slaughter innocents, for example. Their heroes were not heroes because they were unstoppable engines of destruction, but because they were unbending beacons of purity and faith.

The newest GK codex lacks any subtlety and just tries to make them "super" marines with shiny toys and mega heroes. The slaughter of the sisters could have been handled better in a number of ways as posters have stated (I found the sacrifice of a junior brother and the commemoration by crimson gauntlets particularly powerful as it underscores their dedication and sacrifice without resorting to more sister fiction murder). Draigo could have been interesting as a sort of rogue Inquisitor styled figure- supremely confident and skilled, but perhaps leaving a harrowing wake of losses as he drives some of the most skilled GKs into veritable death traps. Instead we get a bizarrely misogynistic (rthe Bloodtide and Sister slaying combined should have set off red flags, pardon the pun) blurb that seems to play to Khorne and a Mary Sue fantasy hero the KICKS GRIM DARK's BUTT!

They need to actualy have fluff meeting or something, Or do nothing until its read by jervis johnson

Kurgash wrote:When the Necron book arrives I'm going to go through it with a 6 pack in hand and a tissue box, so I can drunkenly cry to myself at what my metal horrors have become.

"Necrons, a dead race that is more dead than anyone else. So dead that they rebuild themselves just to die again!"

Hooray! Emo robots!

Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Well Matt Ward ain't doing the next Tau Codex, so you'll probably get some very good units rather than an Uber-Ethereal who took down Marneus Calgar and the Sanguinor in single combat whilst simultaneously banging Shadowsun!

im2randomghgh wrote:Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Chapterhouse has a nice Tau uber unit. So good that I hear GW has tried to cease and desist it http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=37

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Though it is unimaginably off-topic, I kinda wish Tau had an Uber-unit, I don't care if there's crunch for it, I want a Tau Titan analogue!

P.S. I kinda wanna see non-FW knarlocs on the TT

Chapterhouse has a nice Tau uber unit. So good that I hear GW has tried to cease and desist it http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=37

How dare you show me something so awesome that happens to be almost 300$!
No unit will ever be as cool again after having seen that.

Well, you asked...

@Psienesis

That was a joke.
If you didn't understand that, you need help of the psychological variety.

26 pages, well done folks. So, true story, I got the GK codex a while ago but have just been reading a little bit at a time. Yesterday, I read that they slaughtered a bunch of SoB and then bathed in their blood. Yeah my reaction was pretty much "WTF!?". Then I had to laugh a little. Is there no end to the number of ways a Battle Sister can be martyred? I thought we'd seen it all but Grey Knight Blood Ritual? that's new one. I'm sure the Sisters didn't see coming. I only just started reading this thread because the title is actually pretty misleading. I didn't realize it was about this incident. However I must agree with what chaos0xomega said WAY back on page 6.
"You know, I feel like much of this bitching is due to people not having realized that GK's aren't Mary Sue marines... Slaughtering servants of the emperor is NOTHING NEW for the Grey Knights. Its been in their fluff forever, hell the Grey Knight Redemption Force (or whatever its called) formation for apoc has it AS A RULE.

Bathing in their blood is something else entirely, not gonna touch that with a 10 lightyear pole."

In other words, sometimes in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium grimdark happens. I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs. I'm not sure if the SoB Bloodbath even qualifies in the top 5 most evil things they do in that 'dex!
Despite all this I was going to join in on the mocking of Matt Ward for the sheer nonsensicalness of this story. Why are they doing this ridiculous ritual when there are already incorruptable? As Kid Kyoto might put it they like hate the space demons x2 so they like put armour on their armour to make them extra invincible against the space demons.

However, I need to give Kanulen some credit here: he makes a strong argument. It's a matter of semantics that may confuse some of our fellow geeks. There's two types of corruption:
1) Selling your soul to Satan. This can happen wittingly like the classic story of a cultist trying to gain a Chaos god's favor in exchange for power and whatnot or unwittingly like the classic story of soldier with a little to much bloodlust going over the edge and becoming a kornate Beserker. etc.

2) Direct contact with Warp energy. The Immaterium is another dimension made of pure energy that doesn't follow our rules of psyhics and unfortunately contains malevolent sentients. Take anyone and drop them right into the warp and they get messed up quick, GK or not. We're talking tentacles with eyeballs in 60 seconds flat.

It was #2 that the GKs were dealing with this time and because they are not, nor have they ever been shining examples or morality, they were not above using evil-blood-sacrfice-dark-rituals to get the job done. So they did and it worked. So really this isn't the travesty of fluff most are making it out to be. These guys just aren't the good guys you thought they were.

Quite frankly ,I'm more concerned about the fact that that each individual bolt round they make pretty much requires them to eat a baby.

Even if it was corruption type-2 the story said there were pure SOB left on the world. Regardless of the kind of corruption SOB are less protected from it and they didn't need any extra nonsense to protect themselves. Yet, the GK who are supposedly better suited to fight any kind of corruption needed the blood on top of the Aegis and Wards.

Many of the SoBs were corrupted by the bloodtide in that battle and many have been corrupted by the second type throughout their history. When they're talking about how only one has been lost to chaos they're talking type 1.

Some sisters fell and some sisters remained pure, it's the latter that I'm concerned with, they didn't need any extra stuff to remain pure. Also the Bloodtide seems to be type 1 anyway. It made all the dudes on the shrine world go mad and start killing people. No sprouting of limbs and eyeballs.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
"You know, I feel like much of this bitching is due to people not having realized that GK's aren't Mary Sue marines... Slaughtering servants of the emperor is NOTHING NEW for the Grey Knights. Its been in their fluff forever, hell the Grey Knight Redemption Force (or whatever its called) formation for apoc has it AS A RULE.

Bathing in their blood is something else entirely, not gonna touch that with a 10 lightyear pole."

In other words, sometimes in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium grimdark happens.

The point is that Grey Knights were the secret poster boys, the purest of the pure and the ideals of the Emperor embodied in Astartes form. Now they are just normal guys that fight Daemons who employ radical tendencies to get the job done.

It does not mention any sacrifice of the population in the Redeemer Force (attached) to perform any ritual. True, it does mention that they either scrub or kill the population. But this is to prevent any further taint, but this has been established since the First War of Armageddon fluff.

This sort of thing hasn't been given any thought before, not in the Index Astartes articles, nor the Grey Knights novels. Ok, until The new one Sacrifice in the new Victories set, but to me this is just an attempt at patching up the dire fluff that Mr Ward has provided us with in the codex.

The story can be fluffed out with new story without adding OTT stuff like this and can keep in touch with what has already been established.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's two types of corruption:

Or there's the third kind, which is dominance of will, such as the instance of the Sisters of Battle in Daemonifuge where they are turned by a Keeper of Secrets they are attempting to study.

But the Blood Tide should not have hampered the purer than pure, anti corruptible, Daemon hunting Marines because it is what they are created to do, deal with the Daemonic and Warp born nightmares. The wards and markings would have protected them before, why not now?

I'm glad that you are happy with the Codex and its contents, some of us have to be, but I'm clearly in the group that thinks it is an abomination and should be cleansed with holy fire, without the requirement of sacrificing innocents for their blood to rub on my flamer first.

jmurph wrote:Well, part of the problem is that the codex doesn't seem to have the same philosophy as the original GKs. The original imagery was the lone or sorely outnumbered paladin figure of purity against the bloothirsty hordes. Whether he lived or dies is irrelevant, he would tear a swath with his purity and dedication. This was how a lone GK could stand up to a Bloodthirster- not because he had a giant exo suit but because he had a infatiguable spirit and unflinching faith in the Emperor and humanity. The GKs were ruthless when necessary and would mind wipe (and sterilize) an entire population (or chapter) if tainted, but took only the very steps needed- they did not needlessly slaughter innocents, for example. Their heroes were not heroes because they were unstoppable engines of destruction, but because they were unbending beacons of purity and faith.

The newest GK codex lacks any subtlety and just tries to make them "super" marines with shiny toys and mega heroes. The slaughter of the sisters could have been handled better in a number of ways as posters have stated (I found the sacrifice of a junior brother and the commemoration by crimson gauntlets particularly powerful as it underscores their dedication and sacrifice without resorting to more sister fiction murder). Draigo could have been interesting as a sort of rogue Inquisitor styled figure- supremely confident and skilled, but perhaps leaving a harrowing wake of losses as he drives some of the most skilled GKs into veritable death traps. Instead we get a bizarrely misogynistic (rthe Bloodtide and Sister slaying combined should have set off red flags, pardon the pun) blurb that seems to play to Khorne and a Mary Sue fantasy hero the KICKS GRIM DARK's BUTT!

You sir have the way of it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

I wish Matt Ward was.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
1) Selling your soul to Satan. This can happen wittingly like the classic story of a cultist trying to gain a Chaos god's favor in exchange for power and whatnot or unwittingly like the classic story of soldier with a little to much bloodlust going over the edge and becoming a kornate Beserker. etc.

Which, I grant, is something I have a hard time picturing a Grey Knight doing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
2) Direct contact with Warp energy. The Immaterium is another dimension made of pure energy that doesn't follow our rules of psyhics and unfortunately contains malevolent sentients. Take anyone and drop them right into the warp and they get messed up quick, GK or not. We're talking tentacles with eyeballs in 60 seconds flat.

Except the minor problem where the rest of the fluff spends quite a bit of space bellowing about how the GKs spend a lot of time in direct contact with the warp. How Titan spent decades in the warp during the HH.

And then there's Draigo...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Quite frankly ,I'm more concerned about the fact that that each individual bolt round they make pretty much requires them to eat a baby.

The sad part is that's more internally consistent (though very grimderp) then much of the rest of the book.

@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

I would agree. That's why I didn't like humanization of the GKs. They were supposed to have had regular mind wipes so as to minimize their personality. No Personality = no character flaws that can be exploited by the ruinous powers. That all seems to have been retconned out along with an additional 2000 GKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cottonjaw wrote:Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

Me too. I wouldn't have done that. If I'm coming in to relieve a beseiged unit of Sisters surrounded by Daemons my first thought wouldn't have been "Well, obviously we need to kill those Sisters and douse ourselves in their blood" but you know what? That's just how the Grey Knights roll.
"The ends always justify the means" is The Inquisition motto dontchaknow.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm completely in favor with the de-mary sueification of the GKs.

They only became Mary Sues in the first place because GW insisted on turning them into superheroes instead of weapons that had sacrificed their humanity to make them incorruptible.

I would agree. That's why I didn't like humanization of the GKs. They were supposed to have had regular mind wipes so as to minimize their personality. No Personality = no character flaws that can be exploited by the ruinous powers. That all seems to have been retconned out along with an additional 2000 GKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cottonjaw wrote:Uhh.. yeah.. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the Sister's fighting alongside me, than some mojo-ritual of sacrifice providing some kind of mystical faith-assist.

You know what will help me from turning to Chaos? Some cute nun with a multi-melta vape'ing the blood letter that almost took my head off.

Me too. I wouldn't have done that. If I'm coming in to relieve a beseiged unit of Sisters surrounded by Daemons my first thought wouldn't have been "Well, obviously we need to kill those Sisters and douse ourselves in their blood" but you know what? That's just how the Grey Knights roll.
"The ends always justify the means" is The Inquisition motto dontchaknow.

They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@KamikaziCanuck,
The Holy Ordos' motto is actually
"innocence proves nothing"

They are quite warded up with all kinds of doodads and probably would have been fine. By fine I mean would have lost some men but triumphed after a hard fight assaulting the corrupted Bascilla. However, they decided that it is much better for a unit of Soriatus to definately die rather than the possibilty of one Grey Knight possibly dieing. Once again, that's just how they roll.
This is in line with what's previously establised in the book that it is better for 10,000,000,000 humans to die than for a single one to know that Grey Knights exist. Like a said before the SoB bloodbath may be the grossiest thing they do in the 'dex but its not even close to be one of the worst.

Matt Ward is eviler than both of these two put together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFA-rOls8YA

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.

Um, the fluff says that Titan is currently part in and part out of the warp.... sound familiar to anyone? Further, elsewhere in the same fluff... 'We'll jump through the warp without protection'

And, Again... Draigo.... just.....Draigo....

Sounds like Titan is a Daemonworld...That makes Draigo a Daemon Prince. How dastardly! The greatest defenders of the IoM are actually chaos agents! I bet this is the Alpha Legion's work!

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@BaronIveagh
With the Titan Weirdness: although weird Titan was protected by Gellar Fields and stuff. Grey Knights are not immune to direct Warp Energy contact. They don't just drive around in the warp with their gellar fields off. It they take Tzeentchian bolt of change to the face bad mutagenic things may happen to them.

Um, the fluff says that Titan is currently part in and part out of the warp.... sound familiar to anyone? Further, elsewhere in the same fluff... 'We'll jump through the warp without protection'

And, Again... Draigo.... just.....Draigo....

Also Lysander, who isn't a psyker, or a GK, survived in the Warp for 1,000 Imperial standard, which was probably many times longer to Lysander in the Immaterium, and escaped perfectly pure and unscathed...of course he had just about the biggest TH anyone has ever seen, but the point remains.

asimo77 wrote:Sounds like Titan is a Daemonworld...That makes Draigo a Daemon Prince. How dastardly! The greatest defenders of the IoM are actually chaos agents! I bet this is the Alpha Legion's work!

It has the stink of Malal about it.... LOL

Ironically: post 1337.

@Baron
True...true...

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

This thread keeps going around... and around... and around...

AvatarForm wrote:This thread keeps going around... and around... and around...

Quick! Hook a generator up to it! This is next new form of green energy!

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

Just saying, daemons are suceptible to psychic attacks, but not to the point of it being "anathema" to them. The dude has a point, if a partly faulty one. Them referring to the Emperor as "anathema" is probably due to him being the archnemesis of Chaos IMO.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They can actually resist direct contact, due in large part to the fact of their psychic powers. This is why they are chosen or rejected based on whether or not they have psy-potential, as psychic energy is anathema to beings on the warp. (because of this, the Emperor is referred to by chaos occasionally as the anathame. This is also why, in the omnibus, Alaric's first thought after being psychically blunted by the Collar of Khorne is Oh gak, imma be da first justicar to become chaos-y. Dammit!.

This is completely wrong. Psychic energy is not anathema to warp creatures, it takes like cotton candy and they wouldn't exist without it. And despite having his wards deactivated, Alaric still didn't fall to Chaos (although he did have a brief stint as a mindless berserker).

He didn't fall to chaos because he wasn't there long enough. W/o his powers, he became regular Astartes, resistant but not immune.

It has been mentioned many, many times, both in WHFB and WH40K that psychic energy is anathema to daemons, as it disrupts their physical form and completely ruins their stability, instantly banishing them back to the warp.

Learn your fluff.

Was this fluff you mention written by CS Ward? Because that makes no sense at all. Psychic powers are channeled warp energy, daemons are clusters of warp energy with a personality. How can you be disrupted by the very thing you are? If psykers are anathema, why are daemons drawn to Eldar? Wouldn't they all be an object of dread instead?

And the whole point of the GK Omnibus was to show that a Grey Knight is resolute in his mission and immune to the temptation of Chaos even if stripped of his psychic wards and even his very mind. Alaric was intimated to be likely more susceptible than the average Grey Knight because he actually had a brain and a personality (average GK being described in the book as an unthinking daemon-killing machine).

Don't preach to me about fluff, I've been in this hobby so long I've probably forgotten more fluff than you'll nerdrage about in a lifetime. Especially with the latest offering barely resembling a coherent thought, much less a compelling narrative.

1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due , No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

I wouldn't say psychic power is an anathema to daemons. In fact a psychic void is anathema to them like pariahs. It's just that psychic power can be used as an effective weapon against them. It's like fighting fire with fire. However it's the intent of the psyker that is causing them harm not the psychic power itself.

im2randomghgh wrote:1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due ,

Spoiler:

Do you think that Varro Tigurius was just "giving the daemons cotton candy" when he was blasting daemons apart with is unbelievably powerful psychic might? That he was just "splashing fish with water" when he was holding a powerful DP and his hordes from entering the material universe?

No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

1. So you're basically rephrasing what I said. A Grey Knight is still a resolute enemy of Chaos even if you strip away all the things that supposedly make him a Grey Knight (his weapons, his wards, his psychic powers, in fact his very identity). So we're in agreement there.

2. How are you defining anathema? Simply something loathed and unwholesome? If so, absolutely everything is anathema to daemons because they hate everything. Otherwise, if you're using it in the sense of something being utterly alien, inherently wrong and diametrically opposed to everything you stand for, then no, psykers are far from anathema. In fact, the only time that word is used IIRC, is when discussing pariahs and other psychic blanks. Otherwise, merely being vulnerable to something doesn't make it anathema. If a magic creature requires a magic weapon to damage, does that mean magic is suddenly anathema to this magic creature? If a person gets shot in the face, does that mean bullets are now anathema to him? So yes, Tigurius was absolutely splashing fish with water, psychic power is channeled warp energy and daemons swim and live in the Warp... he was splashing fish with water, it just happened to be scalding-hot.

...Suddenly, I'm lost on the point of this...

Yes, daemons can be hurt by a psykers power. NO Being a psyker in NO WAY makes you immune to the powers of the warp. It just means that you can hurt the daemon just like the daemon can hurt you.

Warded armor DOES NOT necessarily require that you, personally, are a psyker. (Exactly how some versions of it work are poorly explained, however.)

BaronIveagh wrote:...Suddenly, I'm lost on the point of this...

Yes, daemons can be hurt by a psykers power. NO Being a psyker in NO WAY makes you immune to the powers of the warp. It just means that you can hurt the daemon just like the daemon can hurt you.

Stop speaking truthiness Baron, you're becoming a defender of GW!

Warded armor DOES NOT necessarily require that you, personally, are a psyker. (Exactly how some versions of it work are poorly explained, however.)

The Grey Knights' Aegis armor has always been explained as the wards are strong, but augmented by the Grey Knight himself.

The Deathwatch RPG has something kind of similar in the form of the Black Templars' relic armor, which is 'layered with hexagrammic wards allowing the wearer to shrug off most psychic assault'.

withershadow wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:1. You obviously misread/misinterpreted the omnibus, as it was showing more how resourceful GK can be, and how they continue to fight even when their greatest weapon is unavailable. It is not their prayers that destroy daemons, it is their faith being physically manifested through their psychic powers.

2. Yes, psychic energy is anathema to daemons, and yes they are also attracted to psykers, no these do not contradict each other. Psykers are essentially passive, miniature warp gates through which daemons can enter the materium. However, when a psyker casts a bolt of psychic energy, it disrupts a daemon's physical body, instantly launching it back into the warp. (obviously more powerful daemons take more potent psykers to banish). If you don't think psychic energy is anathema to the daemonic, then explain the Holocaust, which destroy their soul too, effectively passing a big ol' eraser over them. Don't argue that "oh the Holocaust is just a different example entirely", no, it is just a more potent version of what regularly happens.

On a similar note, if you have read the chapter's due ,

Spoiler:

Do you think that Varro Tigurius was just "giving the daemons cotton candy" when he was blasting daemons apart with is unbelievably powerful psychic might? That he was just "splashing fish with water" when he was holding a powerful DP and his hordes from entering the material universe?

No, he was, is, and ever shall be anathema of the highest order to anything daemonic.

1. So you're basically rephrasing what I said. A Grey Knight is still a resolute enemy of Chaos even if you strip away all the things that supposedly make him a Grey Knight (his weapons, his wards, his psychic powers, in fact his very identity). So we're in agreement there.

2. How are you defining anathema? Simply something loathed and unwholesome? If so, absolutely everything is anathema to daemons because they hate everything. Otherwise, if you're using it in the sense of something being utterly alien, inherently wrong and diametrically opposed to everything you stand for, then no, psykers are far from anathema. In fact, the only time that word is used IIRC, is when discussing pariahs and other psychic blanks. Otherwise, merely being vulnerable to something doesn't make it anathema. If a magic creature requires a magic weapon to damage, does that mean magic is suddenly anathema to this magic creature? If a person gets shot in the face, does that mean bullets are now anathema to him? So yes, Tigurius was absolutely splashing fish with water, psychic power is channeled warp energy and daemons swim and live in the Warp... he was splashing fish with water, it just happened to be scalding-hot.

Psychic energy is not anathema to daemons themselves-just to their physical presence in the Materium. I define anathema as something that is elementally opposed to something else-psychic energy to the physical body of daemons for example.

@Canuck, you can, in the most literal sense imaginable, fight fire with fire as one fire can consume the oxygen supply the other needs to exist. Same diff with daemons. They are already very unstable in the materium, psychic energy accelerating the process of fading into the warp as exponentially as the expansion of the big bang accelerated the expansion of the Universe. Thanks for the analogy .

P.S. I will look for my source, since when you have read as much fluff as I, you tend to forget just where info came form.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Deathwatch RPG has something kind of similar in the form of the Black Templars' relic armor, which is 'layered with hexagrammic wards allowing the wearer to shrug off most psychic assault'.

There are similar things for Rogue Traders and Inquisitorial Acolytes too.

Hexagrammatic Wards for EVERYONE! (It's a wonder how lesser daemons are a threat to anyhting when an armor upgrade that RUNS ON A LASGUN POWER PACK can beat them...)

It's clearly because not everyone has hexagrammic wards.

Plus, they're easily broken from what I recall.

Kanluwen wrote:It's clearly because not everyone has hexagrammic wards.

Plus, they're easily broken from what I recall.

That's why you put them inside your armour.

Actually, there are ones that aren't easy to break, but the creation of them is considered tech heresy by the admech.

Since they don't require, you know, human sacrifice, can be placed on armor ranging from the lowest flak armor to astartes terminators...

...AND CAN BE BUILT IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAP!


Ahh...the Imperium. How the hell they ever win is a mystery to me.

'We have the perfect weapon for the job!'
"But that's heresy!'
'Ok, so we'll throw more men at it instead!'

Six billion deaths later...

'Ok, so that didn't work, we'll nuke the site from orbit'...

Fifty billion deaths later...

'...and that didn't work so... let's just cordon off the area and hope it goes away...'

they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

BaronIveagh wrote:Actually, there are ones that aren't easy to break, but the creation of them is considered tech heresy by the admech.

Since they don't require, you know, human sacrifice, can be placed on armor ranging from the lowest flak armor to astartes terminators...

...AND CAN BE BUILT IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAP!


Ahh...the Imperium. How the hell they ever win is a mystery to me.

'We have the perfect weapon for the job!'
"But that's heresy!'
'Ok, so we'll throw more men at it instead!'

Six billion deaths later...

'Ok, so that didn't work, we'll nuke the site from orbit'...

Fifty billion deaths later...

'...and that didn't work so... let's just cordon off the area and hope it goes away...'

WOO! Let's hear it for shield drones! One of the worst heresies of them all!

KamikazeCanuck wrote: they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

Not if the history of the Imperium is anything to go by. Most of the time it seems to end in Exterminatus (or the near annihilation of every human, at least) or defeat. Ironically, the average person on the ground has better odds of surviving (or even flourishing in some rare occasions) the Imperium being defeated then they do a victory.

What's funny too is they have not run out of humans yet. While humanity might be the Imperium's greatest resource, it's not infinite. Given the sheer volume of war going on, I'm surprised they haven't long since bled dry like Russia did in WWI and almost did during WWII.

Despite how much we joke about it, not every battle the Imperium fight ends with Exterminatus. If anything, destroying the whole planet is VERY rare.

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote: they usually win after the 6 billion deaths.

Not if the history of the Imperium is anything to go by. Most of the time it seems to end in Exterminatus (or the near annihilation of every human, at least) or defeat. Ironically, the average person on the ground has better odds of surviving (or even flourishing in some rare occasions) the Imperium being defeated then they do a victory.

What's funny too is they have not run out of humans yet. While humanity might be the Imperium's greatest resource, it's not infinite. Given the sheer volume of war going on, I'm surprised they haven't long since bled dry like Russia did in WWI and almost did during WWII.

No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Despite how much we joke about it, not every battle the Imperium fight ends with Exterminatus. If anything, destroying the whole planet is VERY rare.

It is hardly a day-by-day kind of thing, but exterminatus isn't nearly as rare as you may think. An exterminatus is almost always used if a planet is entirely captured by the enemy, despite attacks of considerable size failing. The IoM will not allow a planet to fall to an enemy, ever. Only when all ships in orbit are destroyed/captured and they lose the capability to exterminatus, along with all ground effort failing, does a planet become enemy property. The Imperium will not expend unlimited resources for an agri-world.

The Imperium only uses Exterminatus when there is no other choice. I agree that they might be more willing to bomb a planet of no consequence, but if that theoretical agri-wrold supplies the nearby forge worlds and guard regiments, they're not going to give up on it until the planet has been over run from end to end with Orks/Daemons/whathaveyou.

Actually, how did we get to this particularly line of conversation?

Luke_Prowler wrote:The Imperium only uses Exterminatus when there is no other choice. I agree that they might be more willing to bomb a planet of no consequence, but if that theoretical agri-wrold supplies the nearby forge worlds and guard regiments, they're not going to give up on it until the planet has been over run from end to end with Orks/Daemons/whathaveyou.

Actually, how did we get to this particularly line of conversation?

The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Sorry, that's been retconned. Hiveworlds now have around 25 billion people (though the largest may exceed this). Further, according to canon, there are only 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium, or slightly more then one per sector (one might assume that Segmentum Solar has a slightly higher percentage of these) and make up less then 3% of the worlds of the Imperium.

On the Imperial Guard: It should be noted that most planets are too small to raise more then one or two IG regiments, meaning that they only provide about 5k-10k troops, with Agriworlds, due to their small populations, providing few to none at all.

Cadia gets around this by being a hive world with its entire population in the IG. Kreig gets around it by, according to some sources, tank growing their soldiers. Not sure how other places do it, but a lot are implied to use creative means to get around the issue of not having enough people.

im2randomghgh wrote:The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

As for the definition of scale, I think it would be when the planet looks like a shag carpet from orbit. Obviously it's different form enemy to enemy. Orks are one things, Tyranids and Daemon are another.

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

The point is 'Manifest Destiny'. That the Imperium and the Imperium alone must exist, and every other thing in the galaxy MUST be destroyed.

Well, I already knew that

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Sorry, that's been retconned. Hiveworlds now have around 25 billion people (though the largest may exceed this). Further, according to canon, there are only 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium, or slightly more then one per sector (one might assume that Segmentum Solar has a slightly higher percentage of these) and make up less then 3% of the worlds of the Imperium.

On the Imperial Guard: It should be noted that most planets are too small to raise more then one or two IG regiments, meaning that they only provide about 5k-10k troops, with Agriworlds, due to their small populations, providing few to none at all.

Cadia gets around this by being a hive world with its entire population in the IG. Kreig gets around it by, according to some sources, tank growing their soldiers. Not sure how other places do it, but a lot are implied to use creative means to get around the issue of not having enough people.

errr. You got the numbers 25 billion and 32,380 from?

25 billion from DH and Planetstrike (IIRC), and 32,380 from the 40k corebook. There was some fanrage over this, but GW decreed it canon.

Sure they're not talking about A hive?

If it's from DH, that might be in reference to the Calixis sector, specifically... which, being an Imperial backwater (relatively speaking), will not have had the time to reach the staggering populations of other, older Imperial worlds/sectors.

Though 25bil seems a bit low, even for the Calixis sector... I'd have to get my DH main book in hand to check the population of Scintilla and Gunmetal City, the Sector Capital and its Sister-Hive on the capital planet.

BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, your sense of scale is way off. Although thousands of worlds have been exterminated by the Imperium over the millenia only a tiny percentage of conflicts end up in Exterminatus. When the Guard expend 12 million men to recapture a world it is an even smaller infintesimal amount when compared to The Imperial Guard in its entirety. The Imperium has neighborhoods with a greater population than current day Earth; let alone Russia.

Sorry, that's been retconned. Hiveworlds now have around 25 billion people (though the largest may exceed this). Further, according to canon, there are only 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium, or slightly more then one per sector (one might assume that Segmentum Solar has a slightly higher percentage of these) and make up less then 3% of the worlds of the Imperium.

On the Imperial Guard: It should be noted that most planets are too small to raise more then one or two IG regiments, meaning that they only provide about 5k-10k troops, with Agriworlds, due to their small populations, providing few to none at all.

Cadia gets around this by being a hive world with its entire population in the IG. Kreig gets around it by, according to some sources, tank growing their soldiers. Not sure how other places do it, but a lot are implied to use creative means to get around the issue of not having enough people.

Most planets can add a lot more than 5-10k soldiers. Not sure where you got that from.

Some planets have enormous amounts of Guard because they need to pay their tithes but have few/no natural resources so they pay with men. Others because 2-3 regiments are founded per decade. Others because they have many volunteers. Others because they bear a particular hatred for certain enemies. It varies. Obviously planets, even the smaller, less densely populated ones have millions and millions of people and so are able to field probably closer to ~30,000 men + PDF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for hive worlds, I would like to point out that Terra, THE mega-hive, has 100,000,000,000,000 people, and that Armageddon has 10,000,000,000,000 IIRC.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

As for the definition of scale, I think it would be when the planet looks like a shag carpet from orbit. Obviously it's different form enemy to enemy. Orks are one things, Tyranids and Daemon are another.

Just agreeing with Luke here. The Imperium will only declare Exterminatus if the alternative (throwing a mind-boggling amount of resources at the problem until it's over) simply won't work.

The Imperial Armour books seem more reliable sources of fluff than most GW approved cannon, you rarely see a conflict ending with Exterminatus simply becuase the Imperium lost. Why destroy a planet that's been overrun when you can come back later in 100 years or so and bring friends (lots of friends)?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sure they're not talking about A hive?

Nope, the entire Hive World of Scintilla.

Psienesis wrote:If it's from DH, that might be in reference to the Calixis sector, specifically... which, being an Imperial backwater (relatively speaking), will not have had the time to reach the staggering populations of other, older Imperial worlds/sectors.

Though 25bil seems a bit low, even for the Calixis sector... I'd have to get my DH main book in hand to check the population of Scintilla and Gunmetal City, the Sector Capital and its Sister-Hive on the capital planet.

The combined population of the entire planet of Scintilla is listed as 25 billion in the DH corebook. It's hives are described as being quite extensive, though some are a bit... unusual. Schintilla is, however, described as being comparable to any other hive world in the immediate area. And I'm always amused when people call Calixis a backwater, because it's one of only three sectors to boarder Scarus (Calyxis, Mandragora, and Ixnaid)... you know, one of the few stable areas around the Eye of Terror? Most heavily fortified areas in the Imperium? Equivalent to Cadia? That Scarus?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Most planets can add a lot more than 5-10k soldiers. Not sure where you got that from.

Some planets have enormous amounts of Guard because they need to pay their tithes but have few/no natural resources so they pay with men. Others because 2-3 regiments are founded per decade. Others because they have many volunteers. Others because they bear a particular hatred for certain enemies. It varies. Obviously planets, even the smaller, less densely populated ones have millions and millions of people and so are able to field probably closer to ~30,000 men + PDF.

Also, for hive worlds, I would like to point out that Terra, THE mega-hive, has 100,000,000,000,000 people, and that Armageddon has 10,000,000,000,000 IIRC.

Not true. Armageddon and Terra are 'officially' unknown in population, though a cross reference in the fluff in the 40k core book (5e) suggests a population around 100 billion for Armageddon. Ichar IV used to have a population over 500 billion, however, that was before that Second Tyrannic War, the same cross reference in 5e implies that it lost 4/5ths of it's population or so. (more or less jibing with something Kage says in one of the Last Chancers novels)

Only 17 Hive Worlds have ever even been named. Only 3 have canon populations, and one of those was depopulated by the tyranids.

As far as the number of people tithed to the IG: It's stated in C:IG (IIRC) that most worlds only raise a handful of regiments, some as low as one or two. This has to do with the number of available people on the planet. (Minea, a hive world with a supposed population of 150 billion exports less then 2m men a year for the IG. This would be, assuming a stable population, less then 0.001% of the humans that would be reaching 'military age' in that given year. On a planet who's only noted exports are men, a single type of ore, and Phosgene Gas.

Catachan, for some reason, has a 1014th regiment, which seems odd, as being a deathworld, it, by definition, has a very small population. Though GW writes all the Catachan units numbers in Roman Numerals, maybe to hope no one notices. Of course, it could be that everyone who can signs up for the Imperial Guard, to get off the planet...

With the exception of Catachan, the highest numbers seem to generally be armored companies. This could be due to the relatively smaller number of men in them compared to a line infantry company allowing a world to hand over more of them.

Or from worlds that GW has lines of minis specifically for. Not that they would ever manipulate fluff to beyond the impossible levels to sell minis (WARD WARD WARD).

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The IoM considers themselves to have no other choice fairly often.

ALL planets are of no consequences unless it is Terra, Mars, a FW, in the Solar System, etc. etc. etc.

With the scale of warfare in the 41st Millennium, if a planet is conquered, then by definition it is "overrun end to end"

I'd have to disagree with that particular point. If all planets but a handful were of no consequence, then what was the point of the Damocles Crusade? Or a bunch of other battles that I can't think of at the top of my head.

As for the definition of scale, I think it would be when the planet looks like a shag carpet from orbit. Obviously it's different form enemy to enemy. Orks are one things, Tyranids and Daemon are another.

Just agreeing with Luke here. The Imperium will only declare Exterminatus if the alternative (throwing a mind-boggling amount of resources at the problem until it's over) simply won't work.

The Imperial Armour books seem more reliable sources of fluff than most GW approved cannon, you rarely see a conflict ending with Exterminatus simply becuase the Imperium lost. Why destroy a planet that's been overrun when you can come back later in 100 years or so and bring friends (lots of friends)?

The IoM doesn't have the resources to waste men on a lost cause. They are barely able to hold the IoM together, yet alone play with billions of lives.


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BaronIveagh wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sure they're not talking about A hive?

Nope, the entire Hive World of Scintilla.

Psienesis wrote:If it's from DH, that might be in reference to the Calixis sector, specifically... which, being an Imperial backwater (relatively speaking), will not have had the time to reach the staggering populations of other, older Imperial worlds/sectors.

Though 25bil seems a bit low, even for the Calixis sector... I'd have to get my DH main book in hand to check the population of Scintilla and Gunmetal City, the Sector Capital and its Sister-Hive on the capital planet.

The combined population of the entire planet of Scintilla is listed as 25 billion in the DH corebook. It's hives are described as being quite extensive, though some are a bit... unusual. Schintilla is, however, described as being comparable to any other hive world in the immediate area. And I'm always amused when people call Calixis a backwater, because it's one of only three sectors to boarder Scarus (Calyxis, Mandragora, and Ixnaid)... you know, one of the few stable areas around the Eye of Terror? Most heavily fortified areas in the Imperium? Equivalent to Cadia? That Scarus?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Most planets can add a lot more than 5-10k soldiers. Not sure where you got that from.

Some planets have enormous amounts of Guard because they need to pay their tithes but have few/no natural resources so they pay with men. Others because 2-3 regiments are founded per decade. Others because they have many volunteers. Others because they bear a particular hatred for certain enemies. It varies. Obviously planets, even the smaller, less densely populated ones have millions and millions of people and so are able to field probably closer to ~30,000 men + PDF.

Also, for hive worlds, I would like to point out that Terra, THE mega-hive, has 100,000,000,000,000 people, and that Armageddon has 10,000,000,000,000 IIRC.

Not true. Armageddon and Terra are 'officially' unknown in population, though a cross reference in the fluff in the 40k core book (5e) suggests a population around 100 billion for Armageddon. Ichar IV used to have a population over 500 billion, however, that was before that Second Tyrannic War, the same cross reference in 5e implies that it lost 4/5ths of it's population or so. (more or less jibing with something Kage says in one of the Last Chancers novels)

Only 17 Hive Worlds have ever even been named. Only 3 have canon populations, and one of those was depopulated by the tyranids.

As far as the number of people tithed to the IG: It's stated in C:IG (IIRC) that most worlds only raise a handful of regiments, some as low as one or two. This has to do with the number of available people on the planet. (Minea, a hive world with a supposed population of 150 billion exports less then 2m men a year for the IG. This would be, assuming a stable population, less then 0.001% of the humans that would be reaching 'military age' in that given year. On a planet who's only noted exports are men, a single type of ore, and Phosgene Gas.

Catachan, for some reason, has a 1014th regiment, which seems odd, as being a deathworld, it, by definition, has a very small population. Though GW writes all the Catachan units numbers in Roman Numerals, maybe to hope no one notices. Of course, it could be that everyone who can signs up for the Imperial Guard, to get off the planet...

With the exception of Catachan, the highest numbers seem to generally be armored companies. This could be due to the relatively smaller number of men in them compared to a line infantry company allowing a world to hand over more of them.

Or from worlds that GW has lines of minis specifically for. Not that they would ever manipulate fluff to beyond the impossible levels to sell minis (WARD WARD WARD).

Terra population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terra

Armageddon population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Armageddon

BTW this weapon seems like a MUCH better alternative to exterminatus. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ar%27Ka_Cannon

BaronIveagh wrote:

The combined population of the entire planet of Scintilla is listed as 25 billion in the DH corebook. It's hives are described as being quite extensive, though some are a bit... unusual. Schintilla is, however, described as being comparable to any other hive world in the immediate area. And I'm always amused when people call Calixis a backwater, because it's one of only three sectors to boarder Scarus (Calyxis, Mandragora, and Ixnaid)... you know, one of the few stable areas around the Eye of Terror? Most heavily fortified areas in the Imperium? Equivalent to Cadia? That Scarus?

Ehm, because it *is* a backwater, especially in comparison to older, more-established and more-civilized regions of Imperial space. Two Segmentums of Imperial space, although they line up conveniently on the map, might have five hundred or a thousand light-years (or more!) of space between their two closest inhabited worlds. That is a whole lot of space in which a xeno empire, Chaos world or who-knows-what could be hidden. The Imperium is not a continual, contiguous line of human-ruled worlds from Sol to the Jericho Reach, but rather heavily-settled islands of space (like the Calixis Sector, or the Ixnaid Sector) surrounded by vast gulfs of darkness marked "Here, there be Dragons" on the maps of Rogue Traders and Navigators alike; space that, due to the vagaries of warp-travel, have never known the tread of a human ship since the dawn of time.

Of course, it's far more settled and tamed than, say, the Koronus Expanse, which lies beyond the reach of Imperial Law and is the space idealized by Rogue Traders and Explorator Fleets for exploitation, exploration and Big, Fat Paychecks... it's also populated by something like a half-dozen xeno cultures as well as a small cluster of daemon worlds/Chaos-held territories, ringed by terrible warp-storms and a nebula called the Hazeroth Abyss.

Psienesis wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

The combined population of the entire planet of Scintilla is listed as 25 billion in the DH corebook. It's hives are described as being quite extensive, though some are a bit... unusual. Schintilla is, however, described as being comparable to any other hive world in the immediate area. And I'm always amused when people call Calixis a backwater, because it's one of only three sectors to boarder Scarus (Calyxis, Mandragora, and Ixnaid)... you know, one of the few stable areas around the Eye of Terror? Most heavily fortified areas in the Imperium? Equivalent to Cadia? That Scarus?

Ehm, because it *is* a backwater, especially in comparison to older, more-established and more-civilized regions of Imperial space. Two Segmentums of Imperial space, although they line up conveniently on the map, might have five hundred or a thousand light-years (or more!) of space between their two closest inhabited worlds. That is a whole lot of space in which a xeno empire, Chaos world or who-knows-what could be hidden. The Imperium is not a continual, contiguous line of human-ruled worlds from Sol to the Jericho Reach, but rather heavily-settled islands of space (like the Calixis Sector, or the Ixnaid Sector) surrounded by vast gulfs of darkness marked "Here, there be Dragons" on the maps of Rogue Traders and Navigators alike; space that, due to the vagaries of warp-travel, have never known the tread of a human ship since the dawn of time.

Of course, it's far more settled and tamed than, say, the Koronus Expanse, which lies beyond the reach of Imperial Law and is the space idealized by Rogue Traders and Explorator Fleets for exploitation, exploration and Big, Fat Paychecks... it's also populated by something like a half-dozen xeno cultures as well as a small cluster of daemon worlds/Chaos-held territories, ringed by terrible warp-storms and a nebula called the Hazeroth Abyss.

Scintilla is such a backwater that they have Slaanesh-cults all over their slums, w/o even knowing. S. L. U. M.

BTW Charlie Sheen is my HQ

im2randomghgh wrote:

Terra population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terra

You do realize that Inquisition War has been retconned so hard that it bounced, right? Officially, it is no longer part of canon?

Incidentally, 100 trillion people (1x10^26th) outmasses the planet Terra (5.97x10^24th kg.)


On Armageddon: I checked both sources that the wiki sites. Neither have any numbers listed at all. In fact, the Page sited in the Epic Armageddon book is, in fact, a map of the Armageddon system. It does not list a population on the current version on GW's website.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IoM doesn't have the resources to waste men on a lost cause. They are barely able to hold the IoM together, yet alone play with billions of lives.

The Imperium has a massive amount of resources that it can basically just throw at any problems or opponents that present themselves. To the Imperium, billions of lives are nothing. If they have 500 million guardsmen around (and they would) to throw at a campaign to retake a planet whose main export is nothing more important than edible lubiricant, they'll do it.

It's well established in the world of 40k that the Imperium is willing to expend monstrous amounts of manpower in achieving the most mundane of objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, 26 billion for a single hive world sounds about right to me.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Terra population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terra

Armageddon population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Armageddon

BTW this weapon seems like a MUCH better alternative to exterminatus. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ar%27Ka_Cannon

And http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terra which is smart enough to reference relevant sources at specific figures instead of just lumping everything together says that both the population of Terra and Armageddon is "unknown". Your point is?

BaronIveagh wrote:Incidentally, 100 trillion people (1x10^26th) outmasses the planet Terra (5.97x10^24th kg.)

The weight of 100 trillion people is ~10^2 (kilos per person) * 10^2 (100) * 10^12 (trillion). This gives a value of approximately 10^16 kilos. This means either you're engaging in Traviss math, or obesity is a serious problem in the 41st Millenium.

AlexHolker wrote:The weight of 100 trillion people is ~10^2 (kilos per person) * 10^2 (100) * 10^12 (trillion). This gives a value of approximately 10^16 kilos. This means either you're engaging in Traviss math, or obesity is a serious problem in the 41st Millenium.

inb4 fat Americans jokes

@im2random: So you're saying the Imperium will willing sacrifice a whole planet and it's resources, potential or otherwise, everyone living on it, and His most holy cyclone torpedoes, at a complete net less, but not a a few (million) Guardsman to take the planet back? That's skewered, even for the IoM.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Terra population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terra

Armageddon population canon http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Armageddon

BTW this weapon seems like a MUCH better alternative to exterminatus. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ar%27Ka_Cannon

And http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terra which is smart enough to reference relevant sources at specific figures instead of just lumping everything together says that both the population of Terra and Armageddon is "unknown". Your point is?

Did you REALLY just quote lexicanum as canon?


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Emperors Faithful wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IoM doesn't have the resources to waste men on a lost cause. They are barely able to hold the IoM together, yet alone play with billions of lives.

The Imperium has a massive amount of resources that it can basically just throw at any problems or opponents that present themselves. To the Imperium, billions of lives are nothing. If they have 500 million guardsmen around (and they would) to throw at a campaign to retake a planet whose main export is nothing more important than edible lubiricant, they'll do it.

It's well established in the world of 40k that the Imperium is willing to expend monstrous amounts of manpower in achieving the most mundane of objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, 26 billion for a single hive world sounds about right to me.

They have massive resources ye, but not infinite, and they have to protect 1,000,000 worlds, as well as waging crusades etc.

AlexHolker wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Incidentally, 100 trillion people (1x10^26th) outmasses the planet Terra (5.97x10^24th kg.)

The weight of 100 trillion people is ~10^2 (kilos per person) * 10^2 (100) * 10^12 (trillion). This gives a value of approximately 10^16 kilos. This means either you're engaging in Traviss math, or obesity is a serious problem in the 41st Millenium.

LOL, no, because a 'trillion' is one billion billions. A billion being a million millions.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Did you REALLY just quote lexicanum as canon?

LOL That's funny from the person that quoted Warhammer Wiki as canon. Particularly since the sources they sited said no such thing.

BaronIveagh wrote:LOL, no, because a 'trillion' is one billion billions. A billion being a million millions.

Only if you're using the obsolete long scale, and there's no reason to believe that GW was. As you yourself point out, using the obsolete scale gives a nonsensical answer.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Incidentally, 100 trillion people (1x10^26th) outmasses the planet Terra (5.97x10^24th kg.)

The weight of 100 trillion people is ~10^2 (kilos per person) * 10^2 (100) * 10^12 (trillion). This gives a value of approximately 10^16 kilos. This means either you're engaging in Traviss math, or obesity is a serious problem in the 41st Millenium.

LOL, no, because a 'trillion' is one billion billions. A billion being a million millions.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Did you REALLY just quote lexicanum as canon?

LOL That's funny from the person that quoted Warhammer Wiki as canon. Particularly since the sources they sited said no such thing.

A trillion is one thousand billion, and one billion is one thousand million. I thought they taught numbers in kindergarten?


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im2randomghgh wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Incidentally, 100 trillion people (1x10^26th) outmasses the planet Terra (5.97x10^24th kg.)

The weight of 100 trillion people is ~10^2 (kilos per person) * 10^2 (100) * 10^12 (trillion). This gives a value of approximately 10^16 kilos. This means either you're engaging in Traviss math, or obesity is a serious problem in the 41st Millenium.

LOL, no, because a 'trillion' is one billion billions. A billion being a million millions.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Did you REALLY just quote lexicanum as canon?

LOL That's funny from the person that quoted Warhammer Wiki as canon. Particularly since the sources they sited said no such thing.

A trillion is one thousand billion, and one billion is one thousand million. I thought they taught numbers in kindergarten?

Warhammer 40k wiki is one thousand thousand thousand times better than better than lexicanum. A lot of the wiki is direct codex quote.

25 Billion is the population of Scintilla. For some reason you extrapolated that to every hive world when in fact it's actually a very small Hive world with only 2 hive cities. Armaggeddon has like 10 hives or something like that. If you wanted to use Scintilla as a measuring stick then Armaggedon has like 125 Billion people.
Now guess how many Hives are on Terra? One. The entire thing is one massive hive. The original surface is 10 miles below the current surface. I don't think it has 100 Trillion - I think its impossible for any planet to have that many people but I do think it has around 500 Billion as per 3ed. definition of a large Hive World.

im2randomghgh wrote:
A trillion is one thousand billion, and one billion is one thousand million. I thought they taught numbers in kindergarten?

They do, but you appearently slept through the lesson regarding the long and short scales.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Warhammer 40k wiki is one thousand thousand thousand times better than better than lexicanum. A lot of the wiki is direct codex quote.

And yet they don't provide direct references to where the material is gathered from? Yeah, clearly one milliard (see what I did there?) times better. /sarcasm

Well, he's not the only one. Henestly they don't actually teach this so called "long scale" in North America generally. And AFAIK it's generally considered obsolete around the world too. The extra dose of weirdness is the Baron is American...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, he's not the only one. Henestly they don't actually teach this so called "long scale" in North America generally. And AFAIK it's generally considered obsolete around the world too. The extra dose of weirdness is the Baron is American...

Then you don't know as far as you should. Most continental european countries use the long scale, and it's as common as the short scale in the rest of the world.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, he's not the only one. Henestly they don't actually teach this so called "long scale" in North America generally. And AFAIK it's generally considered obsolete around the world too. The extra dose of weirdness is the Baron is American...

Then you don't know as far as you should. Most continental european countries use the long scale, and it's as common as the short scale in the rest of the world.

I guess the fact that English speaking countries use the short scale makes the point moot unless the actual words are very similiar. How do you say Quadrillion in Swedish?

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Most continental european countries use the longscale, and it's as common as the short scale in the rest of the world.

Not used in the UK, otherwise known as the home of 40k, so it doesn't matter who else uses it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Most continental european countries use the longscale, and it's as common as the short scale in the rest of the world.

Not used in the UK, otherwise known as the home of 40k, so it doesn't matter who else uses it.

You do know that the Long Scale is still called 'British' in some places, and still used in Britain in places, right? Parliament decided to change things after 200 years back in the 70's, to try and bring England into line with the United States. Which is, ironically, trying to go the other way, and bring it's system into line with the Continent, discarding the Imperial system and trying to move to metric. Which uses the long scale.

Oh, and, by the way, American is a dirty word around where I live, particularly since New York broke the compact. The flag I salute doesn't appear in dakkas options, unfortunately.

Armageddon has had 500 billion, and 100 billion attached to it at different times, but so far no 'official' numbers have been made. And, as I said, the notation in the 5e core book suggests around 100 billion.

Well I'm confused. What part of America do they not call themselves Americans and count things in milliards?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
A trillion is one thousand billion, and one billion is one thousand million. I thought they taught numbers in kindergarten?

They do, but you appearently slept through the lesson regarding the long and short scales.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Warhammer 40k wiki is one thousand thousand thousand times better than better than lexicanum. A lot of the wiki is direct codex quote.

And yet they don't provide direct references to where the material is gathered from? Yeah, clearly one milliard (see what I did there?) times better. /sarcasm

I know about long and short scale, but it's so obsolete I didn't deem it worth considering. I have never seen it actually used while speaking English (I am a francophone). Ce qui est encore plus c'est la fait qu'on utilise l'échelle courte pour presque toutes les choses qu'on fait .