Okay, having taken some time to digest the rules (haven't had time to proxy anything yet, so this is all theoretical); So, what's my verdict so far? It looks good, but...

The question is, what kind of a game are you looking for?

Warpath is not a squad based game where you use a few lavishly converted and painted models; Warpath is a game with stonking great units of men and machines where you throw buckets of dice at your opponents.

frozenwastes wrote:Not liking what I'm hearing so far. Looks like it'll be a high model count game where you roll a ton of dice while your opponent stands there and waits for your turn to be over.

From what you're saying, you're looking for a small scale game that's interactive in both players turns; this is not Warpath (though I have heard good things about others...)

I'm going to be rather coy, as I don't want to spill too much that's for the Alpha testers;

-There are rules for Infantry, Heroes and Monsters, Artillery (Ordinance), Armor (which includes almost all types of vehicles, including transports), and flyers (which are different enough they merit a special section).

-Flyers seem very interesting, and I think are much better thought out then in 40k (no silly things like a mob on foot charging a supersonic fighter).

The game is built around the concept they mentioned in the Turn 8 report from last week; a game meant to be played with a chess clock. That informs a lot of how the game is built.

-Stats are very simple; a unit has a single characteristic that governs their ability to hit in melee and at range (so yes, a unit that shoots well also hits accurately in CC), there is no reactive "armor" roll, only units that are more or less difficult to damage.

-You do not remove models from units: there are several stats that will be vaguely familiar to 40k players, and so far a stat that seems to be a "king stat" is Nerve. Nerve is what governs if a unit runs or stays; a unit with a high Nerve stat doesn't run easily (and with unlucky rolls can soak a hideous amount of damage). Until the Nerve test is failed, however, a unit stands and fights with the same capacities regardless of damage done to it. This on the one hand seems counter-intuitive, but in the context of a game meant to be played fast, it means you don't have to keep track of anything to determine how a unit works. If it's on the table, its stats are its stats.

-It is, in a way, very much like complicated chess: during your turn, your opponent does... nothing. Like I said, there is no armor save for the inactive player to take, and the Nerve test is actually taken by the person who inflicts the damage.

-Again, as above, one consequence of this is that in CC, units do not strike back; neither, however, do they lock with other units. If you charge a unit, the charged unit will either stand, falter or be swept, but nothing will happen to the charging unit. Again, this is a concession designed to speed play.

-There are only 2 tables in the main rules, and they just go to explain what numbers correspond to the results of your Nerve checks (one for infantry, one for Armor; yes, armored units can, and will, lose "their nerve" and run... sorta).

Okay, that's probably pretty vague, but I hope it answers some questions, or at least gives enough of the flavor to understand what kind of a game we're talking about here.

Warpath is: loads of dice, fast turns, streamlined rules. While quite different then 40k, the rules currently clock in under 20 pages (with the army lists 2 pages so far), and pretty intuitive.

Warpath is not: a skirmish level game, or a game where you have to scrutinize the rulebook. The recommend table size is 6'x4', and you better not bring a 6 pack of casino dice to play, cause you'll be rolling for a looooooong time...

Hmm by the sounds of it, it is quite similar to Kings of War. A bit obvious I suppose

Yep. It is exactly what you'd expect given Kings of War.

It isn't what I'm looking for. I don't want 100 models a side. I don't want to have a turn structure where one person does nothing for extended periods of time.

Hopefully lots of other people do.

I'm still looking forward to the miniatures though. That's the best part of Warpath becoming a reality.

So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

Well, probably they want to churn out the the better 40K out, the way it was intended to be and not the one the management turned into a monstrosity.

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

Sounds good to me, I want a game where I can use the 40K models that I already have, and supplement my existing forces with affordable new models.

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

It's not a 40k clone.

Did you actually read the post at the top giving us a brief run down of the rules?

It's NOTHING like 40k apart from set in space...and I think plenty of games companies do that!

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

I'm not quite sure what you mean: if by "40k clone" you mean a large scale Sci-Fi table-top game, then yes. Otherwise, the rules are very, very different.

"ill-conceived and stillborn"? How so? I'm holding the rules in my hands and while they are still somewhat rough, they are, at even the first read through, a clearly more streamlined and comprehensive product then the rules for 40k.

Also, Alpha rules.

frozenwaste wrote:It isn't what I'm looking for. I don't want 100 models a side. I don't want to have a turn structure where one person does nothing for extended periods of time.

Remember, this game is being designed to be played in timed matches; everything is designed to speed play, and the suggested time is 2-3 minutes per 500 points of game value, so a single turn in a 2,000 point game is suggested to take 10 minutes. Is that slow for a turn of Infinity? Sure, but it doesn't sound particularly long for a 40k turn. And that's what it's meant to "replace", if you will; full on battles, not skirmishes.

Again, these aren't even the beta rules, and I'm being purposefully vague, but that said, it's quite clear that on a model-count basis, Warpath will play much, much faster then a similar scale game of 40k.

I don't want to say that Warpath is be best thing since sliced bread, but if I have any major problems with it, so far they are related to scale, not quality. I'm not entirely sure I care to continue playing these large scale games, but if I were, the more familiar I become with these rules, the more inclined I am to consider them favorably over their obvious competitor.

Edit: I just wanted to add that, to paraphrase Ronnie and Allessio, if you are waiting for your opponent to finish their turn before you start thinking about what you are going to do in your turn, you're doing it wrong. Your breathing time is your opponent's turn; when you are active, everything should be motion, something happening, because every moment you pause is another moment you are giving your opponent to get one step ahead of you.

So, while Warpath is designed with only one person moving models at a time on the table, it's a far cry to say that only one person is doing something at a time.

gr1m_dan wrote:It's NOTHING like 40k apart from set in space...and I think plenty of games companies do that!

Actually, it's a lot like 40k. Mantic even did the same thing 3rd edition 40k did, and replace the Move/Speed stat with special rules.

Then lets hope GW wont send C&D on Mantic :3

Sounds interesting. Though I am still not pleased there are midgets in space.

a game meant to be played with a chess clock. That informs a lot of how the game is built.

I thought as much from what Frozenwastes said.
Am not a fan of I do everything, and you hang around while I potentially decimate your army and clocks
Wish Mantic well but if they proceed to develop the game based on this system I will pass.
Just a personal preference and hope you guys have fun.

Slightly disappointed as I won't have much use for my GW 40K models now.

The chess clock thing is something Alessio is a big, big fan of.

I've never played a timed table top game BUT it is something that I think would help certain games.

I.E Flames of War - I play a regular opponent whose favourite tactic is to pretty much dig in from the start and just not move and wait for you to come. If you do the same it ends up a stalemate and VERY boring. Even objectives don't make him move.

Playing with chess clock is optional but adds a lot of sweat to the game and makes you feel like a real general .

And if your opponent wnats to play on time he only deducts it from his time.

(This is a Warhammer/KoW comparison, since Warpath looks incredibly similar to how KoW plays, I decided to roll with it.)

KoW at least isn't built around timed games, it's built to be able to incoporate them without any faffing around. The use of timed games might be getting advertised more, but it's not a necessary part of the game system, and playing untimed games won't affect your gaming experience unless you're really unable to wait for a few minutes.

That said, anyone who has played Warhammer (WHFB mainly, but 40k will do) should easily be able to cope with untimed games. As a player of both 40k and WHFB, KoW plays a lot faster.

Combat is simple (there's no supporting attacks etc. you just look at the unit's profile and add bonuses for flank/rear attacks (simply doubling/tripling) and the 5 (10 for horde) if you have Phalanx), shooting is simple (again, look at the unit profile), magic is simple (no picking spells, no casting totals, they're just shooting attacks with different effects).

Movement is the same, but there's no much you can do to make it different.

In the time you've spent in WHFB moving your army, rolling for Winds, choosing your wizards, choosing which spells to use, rolling to cast, waiting to dispel and resolving the spells, then shooting, then calculating combats and removing casualties, you've already taken a lot longer than a KoW turn, possibly even a whole KoW game turn has gone into a single WHFB player turn.

Since Warpath rules look very very similar to KoW rules and how it works, I just thought i'd throw out a small comparison based on my experience with KoW and Warhammer. Basically, if you've played Warhammer, then you should easily be able to play KoW without waiting for excessive periods of time as Player A moves his umpteenth thousand models, and if you can play KoW without waiting, then Warpath will be the same.

Well I've downloaded the rules and am looking forward to trying them out. I know they're not going to be everyone's 'cup of tea' (what wargame is?) but in the end all I want from a wargame is a fun way to get practical use out of my, reasonably priced, models.

My main problem with 40k is that it's detailed, yet not logical/detailed enough (not being able to split fire even with tanks, no real coherent design, no generic rules to create your own vehicles and characters, grenades that don't hurt anyone, standard weapons that seem to be Strength 4 AP5 no matter for their 'fluff' etc). IMO 40k is still confused between being a skirmish and mass battle game, although I enjoy my games it is usually the dice that offer that fun - even the background is not that miraculous to me anymore, especially once you begin to deconstruct it.

TBH the whole 'grim-dark' thing is getting old and stale for me - I just can't take it that seriously anymore. I'm looking forward to trying out something that's fresh, has a sense of humour (rather than dumping that on Orcs/Orks) and that is not ridden with complication - so long as I find it just as fun, and I may not, but I'm willing try.

Sounds interesting. Though I am still not pleased there are midgets in space.

That's discrimination!

Not impressed. Units not dropping in performance until they rout was kinda okay in KoW since in a regiment only the front rank fights anyway. But in a skirmishing squad of dudes with guns this level of abstraction is inappropriate.

Buzzsaw wrote:Okay, having taken some time to digest the rules (haven't had time to proxy anything yet, so this is all theoretical); So, what's my verdict so far? It looks good, but...

The question is, what kind of a game are you looking for?

Warpath is not a squad based game where you use a few lavishly converted and painted models; Warpath is a game with stonking great units of men and machines where you throw buckets of dice at your opponents.

frozenwastes wrote:Not liking what I'm hearing so far. Looks like it'll be a high model count game where you roll a ton of dice while your opponent stands there and waits for your turn to be over.

From what you're saying, you're looking for a small scale game that's interactive in both players turns; this is not Warpath (though I have heard good things about others...)

I'm going to be rather coy, as I don't want to spill too much that's for the Alpha testers;

-There are rules for Infantry, Heroes and Monsters, Artillery (Ordinance), Armor (which includes almost all types of vehicles, including transports), and flyers (which are different enough they merit a special section).

-Flyers seem very interesting, and I think are much better thought out then in 40k (no silly things like a mob on foot charging a supersonic fighter).

The game is built around the concept they mentioned in the Turn 8 report from last week; a game meant to be played with a chess clock. That informs a lot of how the game is built.

-Stats are very simple; a unit has a single characteristic that governs their ability to hit in melee and at range (so yes, a unit that shoots well also hits accurately in CC), there is no reactive "armor" roll, only units that are more or less difficult to damage.

-You do not remove models from units: there are several stats that will be vaguely familiar to 40k players, and so far a stat that seems to be a "king stat" is Nerve. Nerve is what governs if a unit runs or stays; a unit with a high Nerve stat doesn't run easily (and with unlucky rolls can soak a hideous amount of damage). Until the Nerve test is failed, however, a unit stands and fights with the same capacities regardless of damage done to it. This on the one hand seems counter-intuitive, but in the context of a game meant to be played fast, it means you don't have to keep track of anything to determine how a unit works. If it's on the table, its stats are its stats.

-It is, in a way, very much like complicated chess: during your turn, your opponent does... nothing. Like I said, there is no armor save for the inactive player to take, and the Nerve test is actually taken by the person who inflicts the damage.

-Again, as above, one consequence of this is that in CC, units do not strike back; neither, however, do they lock with other units. If you charge a unit, the charged unit will either stand, falter or be swept, but nothing will happen to the charging unit. Again, this is a concession designed to speed play.

-There are only 2 tables in the main rules, and they just go to explain what numbers correspond to the results of your Nerve checks (one for infantry, one for Armor; yes, armored units can, and will, lose "their nerve" and run... sorta).

Okay, that's probably pretty vague, but I hope it answers some questions, or at least gives enough of the flavor to understand what kind of a game we're talking about here.

Warpath is: loads of dice, fast turns, streamlined rules. While quite different then 40k, the rules currently clock in under 20 pages (with the army lists 2 pages so far), and pretty intuitive.

Warpath is not: a skirmish level game, or a game where you have to scrutinize the rulebook. The recommend table size is 6'x4', and you better not bring a 6 pack of casino dice to play, cause you'll be rolling for a looooooong time...

I'm really surprised. I did not think they would stick so rigidly to the KoW rules because I didn't think the abstract representation of a 'unit' in KoW would fit very well for a sci-fi game.

So you're saying that exactly like KoW there is literally no reason to actually have all the models on the table for a unit? Just like KoW the models in a unit are not even removed when the unit suffers damage...so technically you could just play the game with counters marked 'Unit A', 'Unit B', 'Unit C', etc?

Or have they added some rules to Warpath to make the actual models within a unit matter for something?

Because it is just so strange to me to have a game designed for you to put TONS of models on the table, but then does not actually utilize those models for really any part of gameplay...that's at least how KoW seemed to me and it sounds like it is the same for Warpath.

I'd love to read the rules, but I'm totally against sites forcing you to pay to join in order to get something. If Beasts had given this out for free and asked for people to join Backstage as a kindly return I would have done it in a second, but I don't personally care for it being done the other way around...so sadly I guess I have to hear about these rules second-hand.

lord_blackfang wrote:Not impressed. Units not dropping in performance until they rout was kinda okay in KoW since in a regiment only the front rank fights anyway. But in a skirmishing squad of dudes with guns this level of abstraction is inappropriate.

How? Damaging =/= killing. It makes a lot of sense considering that it's sci-fi, and armour and shielding would be better. Also take into account that Nerve isn't like Leadership. Where a 5 man space marine unit will have the same Ld as a 10 man, a 5-man unit in KoW/Warpath will have about half the nerve of a 10 man unit, which will in turn have about half that of a 20-man unit.

The amount of damage rarely gets silly (only strings of snake eyes on nerve tests can cause it, and that is very rare), and bearing in mind that in Warpath, it's going to be harder to damage something in the sense of penetrating shielding and armour and hitting flesh, i'd say it's perfectly fine.

All you have to remember is that damage =/= kills, as opposed to Warhammer, where damaging a model enough means it's out of the fight. Warhammer assumes each wound to a single wound model is a killing blow or a life-threatening wound, KoW/Warpath simply suggests it buried itself into armour, missed any important body parts or struck an area that wouldn't have much effect on fighting perfromance.

DONT compare Warpath to 40K.....then you dont have any preconceptions, but its easier to naysay and slag somehting off than give it a chance.

people are so entrenched saying I cant use my GW minis.....good , branch out , get some variety in your life...I havent looked back since I played warmachine.

Hi Synthetik

When I referred to not using my GW minis it is because I will be unlikely to play Warpath. I was hoping that the mechanic would be interesting enough for me which at present does not appear to be the case.
The reason being that there are already enough alternative fantasy games to keep me occupied in modelling and gaming.

For me to invest in another system, there needs to be a realistic chance that I will have sufficient opportunity to utilise it.

I see no reason why GW models will not be able to be proxied.

We have to be careful here, as the rules have just been released for Alpha playtesting. Although can't see Alessio drastically changing the overall mechanics there is still the potential that things could be altered.

Edit:
Actually I think that the decision to enable large scale battles is a good one, as there are already a number of excellent skirmish level games. Nothing really offers an alternative to 40K.
Cue long list of such viable alternatives!

I'm really surprised. I did not think they would stick so rigidly to the KoW rules because I didn't think the abstract representation of a 'unit' in KoW would fit very well for a sci-fi game.

So you're saying that exactly like KoW there is literally no reason to actually have all the models on the table for a unit? Just like KoW the models in a unit are not even removed when the unit suffers damage...so technically you could just play the game with counters marked 'Unit A', 'Unit B', 'Unit C', etc?

Or have they added some rules to Warpath to make the actual models within a unit matter for something?

Because it is just so strange to me to have a game designed for you to put TONS of models on the table, but then does not actually utilize those models for really any part of gameplay...that's at least how KoW seemed to me and it sounds like it is the same for Warpath.

I'd love to read the rules, but I'm totally against sites forcing you to pay to join in order to get something. If Beasts had given this out for free and asked for people to join Backstage as a kindly return I would have done it in a second, but I don't personally care for it being done the other way around...so sadly I guess I have to hear about these rules second-hand.

I just had this discussion over at Beasts. I think any miniatures game can be played with counters instead of models, after all that's all a 'gaming' miniature really is - a pretty counter for a game and Mantic still haven't developed their background enough that their models/units don't have the same air of 'personality' as 40k or Warhammer units - if you care for your Toy Soldiers to have a personality beyond how they look. I also think that LOS plays a part in keeping models on the table. The way everything is worked from the Leader's POV and how coherenecy works at this stage (within 1'' of each other, no more than 5'' away from the leader - max 20 models in a unit) will mean that units won't become smaller so as to be of a tactical advantage while maintaining the same unit stat. If they wanted you could remove models and then reduce the stat line once within a certain percentage of the lesser unit size etc, but then that won't scale down all the way.

I also think that it's a shame that a unit I have spent many hours painting can get wiped out easily in the first turn or two in 40k, this way your painting and modelling gets a lot more 'game time'

I think the main problem with how KoW and Warpath seem to have is with people's 'instinct'. That they are based on units rather than individuals, which for people who have only known individual stats is something different and less detailed (it is for me but then 40k isn't detailed enough) - which people may like or not. The rules also follow Mantic's idea of 'Building Big Armies' - KoW and Warpath are all about Apocalypse scale battles which is where I think the rules will come into their own, as well as being able to scale down for smaller games which they do by offering a minimum of 5 models to a unit.

As for the Beasts of War Backstage charge, I've happily paid it as I know they will cover a lot more stuff and have faith that the money will be put to good use, they've done everything from their own pockets to this point. They've already moved to bigger servers and I'm sure they will continue investing in stuff to make their output better. I agree that they could have sweetened the pot a bit more for people but ultimately Warpath will be entering the truly free open Beta in a few weeks/months.

Synthetik wrote:DONT compare Warpath to 40K.

Seeing as though no other game bar 40k is on the same scale as Warpath in terms of game-size, it's going to be hard to find a way of saying how it differs from other games when the only other one it's competing with isn't a good comparison.

People from a 40k background who are interested in Warpath but concerned about how it plays will be looking for comparisons and asking for them; are we to supposed to tell them not to compare it? Since there's no other game to compare Warpath to, how will people decide whether or not to invest in it as opposed to 40k?

There are also things that Warhammer players are used to that Mantic games do not have, such as wounds and casualties. People from a Warhammer background see rolling to hit and rolling to damage, and they wonder why the models are not removed, because that is what they are used to; the only way to show how in Mantic games, damage does not mean a life-threatening hit has been taken, is by comparing it to Warhammer, where it's assumed that a model that has taken an unsaved wound is, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Looks different. Metagame seems to favor more units, though.

You get stuck in with a good base of fire, your going to be sitting there slogging it out for the game. Fire and manuver seems to favor the fire.


I'm still not convinced with the thundercat tanks, and am hoping that that was just a distractor, and not the last word on real units.

Good assesment of the game, might give people a change of pace in that your not just setting the game up, and then taking units off every 2 minutes, just to put them away again.

How about people stop trying to second guess something based on some second hand rumours and tit-bits from some alpha testing rules.

Seriously, why does everything have to be compared, contrasted and argued about to the nth degree? Can we not just wait at least until the beta rules are released before going into the analysis?

40K and Warpath do not have to be mutually exclusive. Yes, Mantic want to take GW's business but that's not to say they don't envisage the two games co-existing happily. Just because you play one does not stop you from playing and enjoying the other. No-one is asking you to swear undying fealty to a games system. Live a little, try some things and enjoy the variety and revel in the different game mechanics. Rather than write something off at face value, have a go - you never know, you might enjoy it.

Grot 6 wrote:Looks different. Metagame seems to favor more units, though.

You get stuck in with a good base of fire, your going to be sitting there slogging it out for the game. Fire and manuver seems to favor the fire.


I'm still not convinced with the thundercat tanks, and am hoping that that was just a distractor, and not the last word on real units.

Good assesment of the game, might give people a change of pace in that your not just setting the game up, and then taking units off every 2 minutes, just to put them away again.

Am I the only person who liked the Thundercats?

Nah, I like 'em too!

OT - this game sounds less exciting the more I hear.

It sounds vaguely AT-43ish, the whole less is more approach usually ends up with less really being... less.

If I hear any mentions of 'exploding 6's'... ugh.

Well on the bright side it would be a lot less of a hassle to go from KoW to Warpath. Unless of course they completely change the rules.

Theres plenty of other 28mm sci fi skirmishy games out there anyways, I think mantic is adamant in their gaming style

Only if there are explosives and balance sensitive detonation of dice for exploding sixes.

Anything less just won't do!

"Exploding 6's"? Sounds likes sales jargon to me.

It is a system used in some games which iirc means that a six is rerolled for another hit and another six gets rerolled ad infinitum if you have loaded dice!

It is not very likely that Warpath will adopt the system.

Ah, I see, thanks for explaining!

Well I just saw over on BoW that the open Beta will be out in a couple of weeks or so. Ronnie and Alessio said they would never have released anything at the Alpha stage but BoW wanted something exclusive for their backstage venture and Mantic were happy to oblige. It's interesting to see a game at such an early, raw, stage of development. If you guys get involved in the Beta I'm sure it will follow a similar process to Kings of War, which is still in a Beta phase, and that they will adjust points/rules accordingly if anyone picks up on anything.

It's just refreshing for me to be able to get involved with a game early in its development. I liked how GW did Battlefleet Gothic & Mordheim through White Dwarf back in the day and enjoyed them a lot, I'm hoping the same thing can be said for Warpath.

Well I have recently got hold of a copy of the test rules. In the short time I hae had to check it out it looks very similar to Kings of War and uses a similar system. However there are a lot of improvements. The rules have more detail than KoW but still no where near 40k.

There are some different stats:
Type (type of model and number per unit)
Hit (roll required to hit in CC and ranged)
Firepower (number of ranged shots)
Range (range of missile weapons)
Attacks (umber of attacks in melee)
Defense (as in KoW)
Nerve (as in KoW)

The system for unlocking units is the same. For every unit of 10 infantry you get, 1 hero/ monster and 1 Aircraft / Vehicle / ordanance.
The vehicle rules are very similar to rules for other units but have a few special rules and have their own damage table.
Units are much smaller, in the lists i've seen 20 models is the biggest- the nerve values are much lower so this is going to be a much more brutal game. Models are deployed individualy but must stay within 1 inch of each other and within 5 of the squad leader.
Units can upgrade individuals to carry powerful weapons- mainly for anti tank. These are free to shoot at a different unit to the rest of the squad. You also get close combat weapons. Some of these weapons are very power- e.g peircing 6
Characters can be upgraded. You can give them basic weapons which change their stats.
Units can be kept as reinforcements and come on later - like reserves.
Aircraft must come on as reserves. They can be used every other turn as they must fligh away to turn around in between. They are much harder to hit than normal units.
Vehicles have one defense value but get negative modifiers for being hit on the sides or rear.
There are lots more special rules than in KoW, such as hover vehicle, jump troops, explosive weapons

I'll add more if anything interesting turns up, i've had literally 5 minutes to read through it.

Ok well that sounded a bit better. These rules have grabbed my interest a bit.

One thing that is puzzling me...

This is aimed at being a faster game (timed/steamlined rules) BUT it is aimed at being huge too with many models on the table. These aren't on movement trays however so this is going to take AGES to move.

I've never even played a green horde or nid horde but I bet we'll be seeing armies with more guys then this and moving them all individually is going to take a lot longer time wise. Maybe not enough to warrant a moan but it's just something I've noticed.

20 models max per squad isn't many points from the lists I have in front of me. Unless it's the harder elite units.

Still - can't wait to try the rules out properly

Neconilis wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

Sounds good to me, I want a game where I can use the 40K models that I already have, and supplement my existing forces with affordable new models.

Agreed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Devourer wrote:Well I have recently got hold of a copy of the test rules. In the short time I hae had to check it out it looks very similar to Kings of War and uses a similar system. However there are a lot of improvements. The rules have more detail than KoW but still no where near 40k.

There are some different stats:
Type (type of model and number per unit)
Hit (roll required to hit in CC and ranged)
Firepower (number of ranged shots)
Range (range of missile weapons)
Attacks (umber of attacks in melee)
Defense (as in KoW)
Nerve (as in KoW)

The system for unlocking units is the same. For every unit of 10 infantry you get, 1 hero/ monster and 1 Aircraft / Vehicle / ordanance.
The vehicle rules are very similar to rules for other units but have a few special rules and have their own damage table.
Units are much smaller, in the lists i've seen 20 models is the biggest- the nerve values are much lower so this is going to be a much more brutal game. Models are deployed individualy but must stay within 1 inch of each other and within 5 of the squad leader.
Units can upgrade individuals to carry powerful weapons- mainly for anti tank. These are free to shoot at a different unit to the rest of the squad. You also get close combat weapons. Some of these weapons are very power- e.g peircing 6
Characters can be upgraded. You can give them basic weapons which change their stats.
Units can be kept as reinforcements and come on later - like reserves.
Aircraft must come on as reserves. They can be used every other turn as they must fligh away to turn around in between. They are much harder to hit than normal units.
Vehicles have one defense value but get negative modifiers for being hit on the sides or rear.
There are lots more special rules than in KoW, such as hover vehicle, jump troops, explosive weapons

I'll add more if anything interesting turns up, i've had literally 5 minutes to read through it.

This sounds good

Especially the flyers!
I would love to load an army full of bombers!

And while like to think of them as mutant zoid babies.......I also like the thunder-cat tanks

Well the army list I have seen is for the not-squats and the biggest unit you can get is 20. If mantic follow there trend other armies will be of a similar size. In KoW units come in 5s, 10s, 20s and 40s. In warpath you get 5s, 10 and 20s. This usually stays the same for most armies.

I don't think mantic want to kill of 40k they want to provide an alternative that is similar enough for people to feel like the game makes sense while removing a lot of the problems people have with starting wargames (complex rules and high costs).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but casualties are not removed from squads as with KoW?

If so, I'm guessing this game is meant to be played with movement trays and whatnot, for ease of manoeuvres and eventual casualty removal through squad destruction.

Casulties removed like KoW so you could use a tray. The movement is open and it can be beneficial to change the shape of units so it probably isn't advised.

Could see them do skirmisher trays or something like that.

BrookM wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but casualties are not removed from squads as with KoW?

If so, I'm guessing this game is meant to be played with movement trays and whatnot, for ease of manoeuvres and eventual casualty removal through squad destruction.

EDIT 2: Just realised I was ninja'd ¬.¬

Whoa, that's a wacky thought. Since the squad is staying the same "size" and takes up space on the field, it can deny space to the enemy even when its heavily damaged. Looking forward to seeing the SQUAD be the important thing, not what the squad carries (the interplay of armour/antiarmour weapons better be balanced)

Alpharius wrote:
OT - this game sounds less exciting the more I hear.

It sounds vaguely AT-43ish, the whole less is more approach usually ends up with less really being... less.
.

That's my thought too. I was excited about AT-43 and bought a Red Blok army. My buddy brought his Union(?) army and watched while I removed handfuls of his models on my turn. The game play left a lot to be desired.

I'd like to see Mantic do well. Right now its best asset seems to be its pricing and aggressive "stick it to GW" marketing. If they can keep it up, then kudos to them.

What I really want to see, though, is interesting alternate armies in plastic. I'm really hoping they don't make Space Armoured Guys, Imperial Army Guys, Space Elves, Space Orcs etc. But that's me coming from the creative side, and Mantic seems to be about the cost-cutting side. At least they're smart enough to find their market and try not to be all things to all people.

I played nids in 40k. During the movement phase I moved my 100+ models. Then during the shooting phase, they fleeted and/or ran. So I moved the 100+ models again. While my opponent stood there and waited.

IGOUGO is fine when the model count is less than 50 or so. Or when everything is on movement trays and goes quickly. The rules may be incredibly fast for Warpath, but you're still going to have a massive amount of models to move while the other player is basically unengaged with the game. Yep, they can plan their strategy for next turn during your turn, but for some, that's not going to take too long.

40k's biggest problem is its turn structure. At least it had the other player rolling armour saves for something to do. Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people.

And the contained turns means that one of the hallmarks of combat after the invention of the bullet casing will not be present. Covering a field of fire. There's no interrupting movement to shoot at a target down a fire lane. Heck, they could appear, walk right up to you, fight you in close combat and you don't even get a chance to hurt them in close combat until your turn comes around.

It's silly enough in 40k, but atleast 40k has both people fighting in the assault phase.

It's a shame Mantic took the time to build an alternative to 40k, but then choose to emphasize 40k's weaknesses in terms of the turn structure.

I think a lot of people are looking a mantic games the wrong way.

40k is massed battle game that leans towards the skirmish side so focuses on the individual.

While KoW and Warpath use 28mm miniatures their rules are much closer to 10/15mm games. Much more abstract and what happens to an individiual is largely irrelevant. You can see it most clearly in how characters are handled.

let 40k have there game , Warpath is different , its NOT a skirmish game.

Its epic at 28mm scale , each figure represents possibly 1000′s of forgefathers or marauders…its the kind of battle you had in the middle ages projected into space.

If you want I think it would work as a skirmish game , but (and I am fueled here by just watching the new Star Wars trailers for The Old Republic) it is hundreds of Jedi rusing towards thousands of Sith Warriors with sabers ignited…for me its how you imagine the scale.

If I wanted my special ops super SAS marine types to blow up stuff…it could work , but I want HUGE battles…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frozenwastes wrote:Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

thinking like that already gets you killed in WP , if you dont take the time your opponent gives you by moving to think about your next move , your buggered....you will just waste your own time.
and it doesnt have to be played with clocks.

Does Mantic pay you? If so, can I join in and be paid in boxes of zombies and ghouls?

Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

Then will/should come:
Space Robots
Space Elves
Evil Space Elves
Sporcs! (Space Orcs)
Space asian giant battlesuit using communists
Space bugs
Loyalist humans with lots of tanks.

The rules are an excuse to sell us models to fill our 40k armies, much, much cheaper than GW can... that is where they will make their money.
I know noone who plays KOW, but dozens of guys are buying up full armies for WHFB.

For those that are interested there are some new concept sketches up in BoW's 'On the Table' - and you don't even have to pay

http://www.beastsofwar.com/on-the-table/onthetable-10june2011/

I'm pretty certain those earlier leaked sketches were just designers getting ideas onto paper. Looking at the new ones I have to say I'm liking them, time will tell how they change/how close the models are to them.

Yup
Have to agree Warspawned
They looked just like very early stages to me rather than developed design studies, which these new pics.

The former were just pushing ideas around.

warspawned wrote:For those that are interested there are some new concept sketches up in BoW's 'On the Table' - and you don't even have to pay

http://www.beastsofwar.com/on-the-table/onthetable-10june2011/

I'm pretty certain those earlier leaked sketches were just designers getting ideas onto paper. Looking at the new ones I have to say I'm liking them, time will tell how they change/how close the models are to them.

Oh look, dwarves in space with big guns and axes and hammers and the concepts showed off trikes so all we need now is a land train and we're so not going to talk about them again.

And it's good to see BoW doing something like this again, though they could do without all those propaganda interstitials in between, any more of those and I'll wake up with a red armband or something sinister.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

The Marauders are Orks, not Humans. They've got Grots, Killa Kans, Trukks and Battlewagons. Ergo, Orks.

AlexHolker wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

The Marauders are Orks, not Humans. They've got Grots, Killa Kans, Trukks and Battlewagons. Ergo, Orks.

Hmm, that makes the choice harder. Unless of course they have another great introductory set

All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

Delephont wrote:All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

See, Delephont...I kind of like those "Forgefathers".

A lot of the gear reminds me of the Asgard from SG-1 and the 'rogue' Asgard from Stargate: Atlantis.
Does it look fairly generic and dwarfy? Yeah.

But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

I'm torn, I really like the rules (they are much simpler than 40k but that doesn't mean less tactical. There is no rock paper scissors that is presesnt in 40k) but I really don't like the way they are copying 40k. I want sci fi not fantasy in space. KoW works because both GW and mantic have used common fantasy races and mantic are sufficiently different. I really hope they move away from GW.

While it makes sense if they want to just sell models they aren't going to make their own game doing it this way.

I'm actually happy about the simplicity of the rules. I try to get my friends to play 40K, and honestly when you look at it with your n00b glasses on again there is a TON to learn. A tome the size of a college textbook, then all the books for supplemental rules on each army. Differing stats, tables to roll against, different gear and it's all on a large scale...well, it's quite intimidating. My friends aren't really dummies, either. It's just hard to get someone excited about a game they aren't really into with that big of a hurdle to jump just to get started.

I say bring on the simplicity, and keep it tactically open.

I like the look of the Forgefathers, any Marauder pics yet?

Kanluwen wrote:But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

Agreed. My comments are based on what's there at the moment.

However I get the feeling, like many others, that Mantic are heading down the Fantasy in Space idea....which, while I'm no GW fan, that was one of GW's innovations and it worked for them. Yeah, I know FASA Corporation did it with Shadow-Run, but I believe GW was the first to do it to such an extent, and in wargame form.

If Mantic continue to persue the path it seems they MAY persue, I can see alot of people actually returning to GW in a kind of "sympathy vote" type of response. Mantic will be seen as the evil pretenders to the GW throne, and may even come across as "more" money grabbing then GW just for having targeted another company so directly with no innovation of thier own.....EVEN I would see GW in a different light should that happen.

Well I will have to agree, hold your breath until you see humans

Here's hoping for human soldiers with body armour that doesn't have shoulder guards.

BrookM wrote:Here's hoping for human soldiers with body armour that doesn't have excessively huge shoulder guards.

I fixed your statement to say what I'm hoping for.

Shoulderguards by themselves? Not a 'bad' thing.

Shoulderguards bigger than their heads?

Bad thing.

frozenwastes wrote:I played nids in 40k. During the movement phase I moved my 100+ models. Then during the shooting phase, they fleeted and/or ran. So I moved the 100+ models again. While my opponent stood there and waited.

IGOUGO is fine when the model count is less than 50 or so. Or when everything is on movement trays and goes quickly. The rules may be incredibly fast for Warpath, but you're still going to have a massive amount of models to move while the other player is basically unengaged with the game. Yep, they can plan their strategy for next turn during your turn, but for some, that's not going to take too long.

40k's biggest problem is its turn structure. At least it had the other player rolling armour saves for something to do. Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people.

And the contained turns means that one of the hallmarks of combat after the invention of the bullet casing will not be present. Covering a field of fire. There's no interrupting movement to shoot at a target down a fire lane. Heck, they could appear, walk right up to you, fight you in close combat and you don't even get a chance to hurt them in close combat until your turn comes around.

It's silly enough in 40k, but atleast 40k has both people fighting in the assault phase.

It's a shame Mantic took the time to build an alternative to 40k, but then choose to emphasize 40k's weaknesses in terms of the turn structure.

Delephont wrote:All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

That said, in all honesty, you should be prepared for the obvious counter: the game you seem to be claiming to want already exists (it's Infinity). You want high interaction and reactive turns? Infinity. Mass Effect style miniatures that are "futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Infinity. (By the way, though this may seem flip, I am genuinely trying to point out Infinity as an alternative here, as it seems like both of you would be very happy with it, and it's a game that can never get too much exposure.)

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...), and the nature of the models also brings a different point: you have to remember what Mantic is. It isn't Studio McVey or Corvus Bell, making super high quality, low count armies designed to lavish attention and time on each one. It's a company made up of people that got their footing at GW, trying to recapture what they feel made GW a great company back in the day, who have a clear focus on producing good (not exquisite), affordable plastic models to make huge games.

Kanluwen wrote:But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

The problem with this line of thought is, of course, that going away from "tradition" is another way of saying, going away from the one game system that a) the developers cut their teeth on, and b) is the far and away market leader in this field.

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

Buzzsaw wrote:Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

Sometimes I wonder if thats what mantic really thinks

Buzzsaw wrote: With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

That said, in all honesty, you should be prepared for the obvious counter: the game you seem to be claiming to want already exists (it's Infinity). You want high interaction and reactive turns? Infinity. Mass Effect style miniatures that are "futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Infinity. (By the way, though this may seem flip, I am genuinely trying to point out Infinity as an alternative here, as it seems like both of you would be very happy with it, and it's a game that can never get too much exposure.)

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I can't speak for the other guy here. However, I think you're missing the point of my post.

Mantic came online and "sold" their game, stating it would blow our minds and we should expect great things.....cue: speculation.

Mantic obviously wanted that speculation, and hype, in order to generate interest in their project. As part of that speculation, we as gamers began to dream up what we were hoping to see......so far, this isn't what I hoped for....period.

I know about Infinity, and have invested heavily in the game...I intend to keep doing so. I appreciate that it's there, however, like I said, I was hoping for something on a larger scale, that, while not being Infinity on a larger scale, would in some way follow that "feel"......it's just what I was hoping for.....hence my disappointment.

As far as paying my $6, well, how do you think I got a copy of the Alpha rules?!?

That said, do I think Alessio is going to change his game based on my "input".....I strongly doubt that. Unfortunately, I think this whole...."developed by gamers, for gamers" is a bit crap....it leads people to believe their anal retentive musings will be heard by the people investing money and time into a commercial project....that's just fantasy. In reality, the suggestions that add to what is already there will be considered....those that are too diverse will be ignored....a game can't please everyone. So when I see that my needs are so far from what has been presented, rather then broadcast that to Alessio in the vague hope that he will suddenly change tact and deliver the game I want, I'd rather just look elsewhere.

Having said all of that.....you're right, it's the Alpha stage.....alot can happen between here and final product. I will pay close attention and hope that either my misgivings were wrong, or that, perhaps the final product isn't that bad, and it's something I can play.....so, I'll wait and see what comes out the hat!

Guys, we're getting orks and dwarves in space. Surely it's a foregone conclusion that this is going to be a fantasy-in-space 40k'ish game.

Folks hoping for something else are only priming themselves for disapointment.

well if that is the case, the only people priming themselves for diappointment is the Mantic team.....and I really wish GW all the luck in burying them.....

Sorry, just my opinion.

Looks like mantic have stepped it up a gear. Hope there's some good stuff. I think it'll be harder to fit mantic models into 40K though, and that's what I normally use them for.

Mantic is and always has been a company that puts out kits for large armies at a low price first, rules come second. It took them what, a year before they started producing rules?

Eilif- while it's likely it will just be fantasy in space there is no point giving up until we see the finished product. If you heard what races were in mantic's fantasy range it would sound like WHFB however there are enough differences in the background and theme of the models that it manages to be is own games. I'm just hoping the same will happen for Warpath. From what we have seen of the concept sketchs it's looks nothing like 40k.

BrookM wrote:Mantic is and always has been a company that puts out kits for large armies at a low price first, rules come second. It took them what, a year before they started producing rules?

This may be true to their fantasy but right now it appears that they're putting a bit more emphasize on their sci fi

Personally I doubt it. But that's just me. I've got a feeling they'll be cranking out generic sci-fi races and units, again as a cheap way of getting a big army fast. Who knows, maybe their Squats are their variant of the Space Marine?

Buzzsaw wrote:
With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

Umm... I think I you may need to reread my post.

I take issue with the turn structure. You know, a mechanic.

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...),

Sorry, but the turns are self contained. During your turn I do nothing. In Kings of War, this works as (almost) everything is on movement trays. Now put down 100+ miniatures that are individually based and go at it. Just as boring of a wait as 40k with those model counts.

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I'm totally cool with that. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed with the lack of innovation here.

No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Delephont wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote: With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

<snip>

I can't speak for the other guy here. However, I think you're missing the point of my post.

Mantic came online and "sold" their game, stating it would blow our minds and we should expect great things.....cue: speculation.

Mantic obviously wanted that speculation, and hype, in order to generate interest in their project. As part of that speculation, we as gamers began to dream up what we were hoping to see......so far, this isn't what I hoped for....period.

I know about Infinity, and have invested heavily in the game...I intend to keep doing so. I appreciate that it's there, however, like I said, I was hoping for something on a larger scale, that, while not being Infinity on a larger scale, would in some way follow that "feel"......it's just what I was hoping for.....hence my disappointment.

No offense, but I think the problem here is that your expectations and speculation were wildly at odds with what little we did know. I mean, you honestly saw


And


And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Delephont wrote:That said, do I think Alessio is going to change his game based on my "input".....I strongly doubt that. Unfortunately, I think this whole...."developed by gamers, for gamers" is a bit crap....it leads people to believe their anal retentive musings will be heard by the people investing money and time into a commercial project....that's just fantasy. In reality, the suggestions that add to what is already there will be considered....those that are too diverse will be ignored....a game can't please everyone. So when I see that my needs are so far from what has been presented, rather then broadcast that to Alessio in the vague hope that he will suddenly change tact and deliver the game I want, I'd rather just look elsewhere.

Having said all of that.....you're right, it's the Alpha stage.....alot can happen between here and final product. I will pay close attention and hope that either my misgivings were wrong, or that, perhaps the final product isn't that bad, and it's something I can play.....so, I'll wait and see what comes out the hat!

See, here you lose me a bit: either you think that what you want is a commercially viable, interesting option, or you think what you want is just "anal retentive musings". If it's the former, it behooves you to get on the BoW forums for the Alpha and speak up! The worst that can happen is you get shot down by the other posters. On the other hand, if Mantic is agreeing with your opinion about... your opinion, I'm not honestly sure I can see reasonably being angry with them.

Let me be clear about something as well: I don't see playing Warpath really. All of the complaints (strict IgoUgo turns, excessive abstraction, Sci-Fantasy setting) resonate with me, which is why I am favorably inclined towards Infinity. But, my objections to the type of game aren't really problems with the game, any more then wanting vanilla is a problem with chocolate.

frozenwastes wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:
With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

Umm... I think I you may need to reread my post.

I take issue with the turn structure. You know, a mechanic.

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...),

Sorry, but the turns are self contained. During your turn I do nothing. In Kings of War, this works as (almost) everything is on movement trays. Now put down 100+ miniatures that are individually based and go at it. Just as boring of a wait as 40k with those model counts.

This would be a one of the "issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules"; moreover, in terms of flavor, you seem to have an odd notion that a high degree of specific interactivity is compatible with, in a nutshell, Apocalypse sized battles. Again, as I pointed out, if you take issue with the big army battle approach (which your statement "Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people" leads one to believe), the import of your criticism seems to be you want something that was never in the offering.

frozenwastes wrote:

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I'm totally cool with that. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed with the lack of innovation here.

I'm very serious here: what did you really expect from the "building big armies" company?

Big armies mean either: really, really long games, or, streamlined rules with a lot of abstractions. They chose streamlined with abstractions, which I personally think is the better of the choices.

Put another way, I believe some of the best rules for table top games are the Warmachine/Hordes rules (Mk.II) put out by Privateer Press. But I also recognize that the depth, complexity and interest of those rules would be a nightmarish mis-match for a game where each side is intended to have a hundred models.

Warpath leans more to the AT-43 side of game-speed. I.e. it is still way faster than 40K without loosing that epic touch.

4M2A wrote:No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Hold on, you're adding layers of complexity here where there are none. Saying you don't like a mech is just as valid as saying there are issues with it. The whole idea of the Alpha rules being put out was that people can "pick holes" in the game.

The alpha rules are there to find flaws in the rules. Being a very simple IGOUGO isn't a flaw, it's the intention.You may not like that mechanic but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game it's just that you aren't the target audience. It's understandable you complain but just keep in mind that it isn't a case of the game being bad.

If mantic comes with a sci-fi Fantasy game (and it will) it will not be like 40k, it will be lighter, funnier, with lots of jokes and less "grim darkness".

Lets not be innocent, mantic will do sci-fi compatible with GW, they know lots of people buy from them as an alternative for GW models.
I dont expect Space Marines, but orkz, eldars, dark eldars, Ig, and "army of he month". Maybe that is the reason why GW ordered his new "secrecy rules", after all, mantic released Orcs in the middle of their "orc week"...

And lets be fair, half of the people interested in Mantic sci-fi, expect GW alternatives for a better price ^^

Personally, i would be very happy with alternates for Assault Marines, but well, they dont exist yet...

Delephont wrote:

4M2A wrote:No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Hold on, you're adding layers of complexity here where there are none. Saying you don't like a mech is just as valid as saying there are issues with it. The whole idea of the Alpha rules being put out was that people can "pick holes" in the game.

The problem is that the mechanic is a necessary compliment to the type of game: as I've said, there are better, more interactive rules sets, I just can't see them scaled up to this level.

As an aside, the "best rules for table top games" are pretty strict IGOUGO.

Buzzsaw wrote: And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Those scribblings could have been anything, there were no grounds before to base much speculation on them......and that statement was backed up by Mantic themselves.

I don't really see how you can hold my point to ransom based on those drawings. Now we know a bit more "detail", I can see that what I was hoping for was not on Mantics agenda, that's fine. My "anger" with Mantic is that I feel they're wasting an opportunity to create somthing special by going for quick sales off the back of GW.

Now whether that feeling I have comes to pass, only time will tell.

Delephont wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote: And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Those scribblings could have been anything, there were no grounds before to base much speculation on them......and that statement was backed up by Mantic themselves.

I don't really see how you can hold my point to ransom based on those drawings. Now we know a bit more "detail", I can see that what I was hoping for was not on Mantics agenda, that's fine. My "anger" with Mantic is that I feel they're wasting an opportunity to create somthing special by going for quick sales off the back of GW.

Now whether that feeling I have comes to pass, only time will tell.

Uhh... in the interview on Turn 8 where they conceded the pedigree of those scribbles, they also mentioned (in stage whisper) "space orks" and "space dwarves"...

Moving beyond that, you state they are "going for quick sales off the back of GW", but you ignore the (somewhat more benign) alternative: these guys (veterans of GW itself) are grounded in GW stylings and that style lines up with their own inclinations. Put another way, they like the "GW" style.

It's not merely that the alternative are more risky, with no trailblazers in those fields, but that the style that is successful is their own style.

Yes I can understand the disappointment when it comes to background and the races. It does look like they went for identical copies of 40k races and it would have been so much better if they could have made their own game.

However the rules are another matter. It was clear from the start the rules would be like KoW and aside from disliking the mechanic there isn't much wrong with them.

Buzzsaw wrote: Uhh... in the interview on Turn 8 where they conceded the pedigree of those scribbles, they also mentioned (in stage whisper) "space orks" and "space dwarves"...

Moving beyond that, you state they are "going for quick sales off the back of GW", but you ignore the (somewhat more benign) alternative: these guys (veterans of GW itself) are grounded in GW stylings and that style lines up with their own inclinations. Put another way, they like the "GW" style.

It's not merely that the alternative are more risky, with no trailblazers in those fields, but that the style that is successful is their own style.

Well, I guess the way they "launched" the whole affair it could have gone either way. Maybe I chose to treat the "stage whisper" as a joke, as taking it for truth would have turned me off immediately.

I don't buy the "benign alternative".....a kind of Freudian slip in desgn that leads to a clone of WH40K....and then the whole Mantic team turn to one another and giggle "I never saw that coming..." these guys know exactly what they are doing, and unfortunately, IMHO, it has less to do with design asthetics and much more to do with £$£$£

Delephont you also need to remeber that while a lot of people are looking for a new game there are equally (if not more) people who want mantic to just continue making miniatures for 40k / WHFB. While there will be some customers who are disappointed in not getting there own game, there would be just as many people disapointed if mantic completely did their own thing.

Making there own game would make them a lot more money if it worked out but making not GW models is a lot safer. Personaly I expect mantic to play it safe at first and then start branching out if they are successful- they have already mentioned they are moving away from warhammer fantasy in KoW.

I'm glad that they are releasing rules for their sci-fi miniature line, but I'll be more glad for cheaper 40K alternatives.

To paraphrase something I heard regarding oil prices:
The best solution for high GW prices is high GW prices.

In case you cant access the BoW website or something, here are the sketches they have on Warpath

The problem for Mantic is, if they come up with brand new sci-fi races there is a risk that they lose the more conservative part of the market.

But if they play safe they will be accused of coat tailing GW and being money grubbers.

Given the amount of investment required, it is understandable that Space dwarves and orkses will be released first. They will be popular.

Hopefully when the game settles down and sells well, then more innovative races will be released. There will be at least 8 iirc possibly more. It is far too early to dismiss out of hand completely/

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Warpath leans more to the AT-43 side of game-speed. I.e. it is still way faster than 40K without loosing that epic touch.

Uh oh...

kenshin620 wrote:In case you cant access the BoW website or something, here are the sketches they have on Warpath

Still, if it lets me buy lots of not-Squats that look this cool?

OK!

Kanluwen wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.

I'd rather have the Elven warriors that have proportions that make them not look like anorexic supermodels who can fall through a crack in the floor but trained warriors.

It's kind of the same issue that I have with the people who constantly say that Conan the Barbarian is the same proportions and a perfect match for Arnold. It's stated time and time again in the novels that Conan had the look of a "panther" to him. All sinewy muscle, not bodybuilder bulk.

He *moved* like a panther, but his thick, corded, sinewy muscles, deep chest, and so on and so forth are continually described. Arnold wasn't bad casting.

Wow, those are space dwarves. I mean, wow. Not even a little bit of subtlety; those are sci-fi dwarves, beards and everything.

On the other hand, WOW! Those concepts are fantastic! So what if the idea isn't anything new, the execution more than makes up for it. If the final models look like those drawings, I'm sold, and excited for their future designs.

I've got a place to bring back the old guard, I see!

Squats with the Ogryn contingent, back in the saddle, WHEEEE!!!

Only thing left to get back in there somehow is the thudds and the mole morters

If even half of those get made into minis, I'm in.

Arnold wasn't bad casting.

Maybe GW should hire him to sort out Finecast then!

Hot damn! Those dwarves are so armored even their beards have plates. I love it!

Heck yeah! Dig those illustrations. Those in plastic and I'll be vurra, vurra happy.

4M2A wrote:Eilif- while it's likely it will just be fantasy in space there is no point giving up until we see the finished product. If you heard what races were in mantic's fantasy range it would sound like WHFB however there are enough differences in the background and theme of the models that it manages to be is own games. I'm just hoping the same will happen for Warpath. From what we have seen of the concept sketchs it's looks nothing like 40k.

I should have been more clear. I was incredulous at those expecting something other than fantasy-in-space.

For myself, I'm absolutely thrilled that they're doing fantasy in space. I wasn't totaly sold on the first leaked images, but was still excited about neo-squats. However, the second set from Beasts of War (now on the previous page) totally sold me.

I've signed up for backstage, out of curiosity, but whether the game turns out to be awesome and my club picks it up or flops is not terrilby important to me, or to Mantic, realistically. They're a miniatures company first and foremost and I'm just very happy to be able to get the Squats I was never able to get (or now afford) and am very stoked to see what other Sci-Fantasy races will look like.

Love the 40k universe and imagery + hate the 40k prices = Very happy about Warpath!

Im not too keen on the sound of these rules, and will probably use these minis in 40K. Having said that, before everyone blasts Mantic for copying GW or trying to crassly offer a cheaper alternative, let's remember something: it looks like the primary race is Space Dwarfs. Well, 40k no longer has Space Dwarfs, much to the consternation of many. I think that, if Warpath is 40k-inspired in any sense, it will be "40k as it should be", appealing to all the disgruntled old guard veterans who don't like how the game has developed in recent years. That's not exactly innovative, but it's not just about undercutting GW, it's about filling a gap in the market, catering to 40K players (like myself) who feel their wants have been disregarded.

4M2A wrote:The alpha rules are there to find flaws in the rules. Being a very simple IGOUGO isn't a flaw, it's the intention.You may not like that mechanic but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game it's just that you aren't the target audience. It's understandable you complain but just keep in mind that it isn't a case of the game being bad.

This.

My only concern is big battles with individually based miniatures = lots of time spent moving individual figures.

I think Kings of War works so well because of the use of movement trays. Without them, and with miniatures in a dispersed formation, I think things might bog down.

Given that Mantic has stylistically pointed back to the design of miniatures back when GW had it's highest levels of growth (mid 1990s when they become the truly international company that they are) I guess I was hoping Mantic would come out with a game like the one that made GW the international company it is. 2nd Ed 40k had its problems but it was the game that made GW huge. And it had a lower model count than 40k does today (by less than half!).

Everyone out there that is the target audience for this. Enjoy yourself! Enjoy filling up a table with miniatures and playing a game where the rules don't add any extra time and you just go-go-go. Because once you get up over the 100 individually based models per side, things can take long enough to move without the rules slowing things down further.

I'm expecting Warpath to be a balanced rules-lite/fast play 40k type game where you play with a large number of miniatures and spend your opponents turn planning your turn.

If the miniatures are great enough that I'll want tons of them, I'll get into Warpath. More likely, I'll buy the smallest box sets of each of Mantic's sci-fi like I do with their fantasy and use them for lower model count games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buzzsaw wrote:Again, as I pointed out, if you take issue with the big army battle approach (which your statement "Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people" leads one to believe), the import of your criticism seems to be you want something that was never in the offering.

Fair enough.

But there are lots of us potential customers out there who don't want to have 100 figure armies to play a full game. Loads who want to play with 30 or so miniatures and have a good time. I fully plan on continuing to buy one of everything Mantic puts out (the smallest boxes like the 10 elf troops when available). I find Infinity's model count to be too low and 40k's to be way too high. Mantic seems to want to push the numbers up even more than 40k.

I guess I just want a game that has a model count like what 40k was during GW's greatest times of growth from a small UK based company into an international miniature giant. During that time, 40k 2nd edition could handle both tiny armies (I remember White Dwarf articles about 1500 point armies with 11 models) and big hordes of 70+ models (guard or nids). Maybe Warpath will fulfill this. Even if it doesn't focus on it.

Ronnie did explicitly say that the rules would support small games and scale up to big ones. Who knows, maybe it will end up kicking ass at 30-40 miniatures per side?

Put another way, I believe some of the best rules for table top games are the Warmachine/Hordes rules (Mk.II) put out by Privateer Press. But I also recognize that the depth, complexity and interest of those rules would be a nightmarish mis-match for a game where each side is intended to have a hundred models.

Totally agree. I think one of the reasons PP is growing so rapidly is they are hitting the model count that made 40k a world wide hobby. The model count of 35 and 50 point Warmachine armies is pretty close to what you needed for 1000 and 1500 point armies back during the 1990s when GW had their record growth.

Guildsman wrote:Wow, those are space dwarves. I mean, wow. Not even a little bit of subtlety; those are sci-fi dwarves, beards and everything.

Yes, and that is why they are awesome!

Hopefully the miniatures make the transition from concept art to reality intact.

If they do, I predict a big seller for Mantic, as the not-Squats appear as 'counts as' IG on 40K battlefields everywhere...

The concepts certainly are promising----Space Dwarves that didn't make me roll my eyes. Great job to whomever the artist is.

Oh CRAP! I honestly, HATE to admit this....and please god dont let anyone notice the Squat hate Ive spewed since I joined this site.....but those Forgefather sketches look fething awesome. I mean...really awesome. This could be a bad thing for me


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:

Guildsman wrote:Wow, those are space dwarves. I mean, wow. Not even a little bit of subtlety; those are sci-fi dwarves, beards and everything.

Yes, and that is why they are awesome!

Hopefully the miniatures make the transition from concept art to reality intact.

If they do, I predict a big seller for Mantic, as the not-Squats appear as 'counts as' IG on 40K battlefields everywhere...

Yea

Just go through all your posts and edit them KC
No one ever need know the truth

Right, I'm back to my latest book, Uncle Joe's, Rewriting History for Dummies, 28th revised edition

frozenwastes wrote:
My only concern is big battles with individually based miniatures = lots of time spent moving individual figures.

I think Kings of War works so well because of the use of movement trays. Without them, and with miniatures in a dispersed formation, I think things might bog down.

Given that Mantic has stylistically pointed back to the design of miniatures back when GW had it's highest levels of growth (mid 1990s when they become the truly international company that they are) I guess I was hoping Mantic would come out with a game like the one that made GW the international company it is. 2nd Ed 40k had its problems but it was the game that made GW huge. And it had a lower model count than 40k does today (by less than half!).

Everyone out there that is the target audience for this. Enjoy yourself! Enjoy filling up a table with miniatures and playing a game where the rules don't add any extra time and you just go-go-go. Because once you get up over the 100 individually based models per side, things can take long enough to move without the rules slowing things down further.

I'm expecting Warpath to be a balanced rules-lite/fast play 40k type game where you play with a large number of miniatures and spend your opponents turn planning your turn.

If the miniatures are great enough that I'll want tons of them, I'll get into Warpath. More likely, I'll buy the smallest box sets of each of Mantic's sci-fi like I do with their fantasy and use them for lower model count games.

Having gotten a chance to read the Alpha rules, there are a few things in place that should make moving so many models dramatically easier than 40K:


1) Unlike 40K, where units can move up to four times in a turn (movement phase, running in the shooting phase, assault moves & consolidate/pile-in), in Warpath units move a maximum of twice (and generally only once...the 2nd move only occurs if the unit fights in combat, in which case it then has to make a regroup move afterwards). That's a whole lot less movement to take care of.

2) All units have to keep their models within 1" of each other and within 5" of the unit leader. This means the unit more-or-less moves in a clump. There will be no crazy stringing out of your units in order to provide cover to each other, etc, which should make moving each unit (as a clump) much easier to do, as once you move the front few models in the unit, the rest would move right behind it.

3) If a unit makes a sprint move (basically a double rate move, but gives up firing to do so) then you just move the squad leader model and then after his move is done you reform the unit around the squad leader. Any units moving this way would be very quick to resolve.

4) When a unit assaults into combat, you measure the closest model assaulting to ensure he's in range but after than you just pick up your assaulting models and put them into base contact with models in the enemy unit. This should make moving any units into an assault much quicker than 40K (and assault moves in 40K can be pretty complex sometimes).


When you combine all this together I do think that moving even 100+ models in Warpath should be much, much quicker than in 40K.

Of course, if they had worked removing models as part of tracking damage on a unit it would have gone even quicker as the game progressed and units lost models...but oh well.

Is it just me, or would magnetising the unit leader onto a template large enough for base + 5" solve most of the movement issues? Move the leader, rearrange the troopers if required, job done.....

Dysartes wrote:Is it just me, or would magnetising the unit leader onto a template large enough for base + 5" solve most of the movement issues? Move the leader, rearrange the troopers if required, job done.....

Cover is still determined by where the models are placed, so you still have to move your models behind cover to get it. Also, even though it has absolutely no real impact on the game, when assaulting you have to move all your models into base contact with enemy models. Finally, when moving the unit in/around other units and terrain you might have to alter its formation a bit.

So in all these cases (and probably a few more) it really isn't feasible to keep a unit on a base the entire game. You certainly could for much of the game though, so a magnetized base could indeed work in many situations I think.

Eh...I dunno. They just look like fantasy dwarves in plate armor with guns to me. So yeah, the space dwarves aren't really for me I guess.

Sidstyler wrote:Eh...I dunno. They just look like fantasy dwarves in plate armor with guns to me. So yeah, the space dwarves aren't really for me I guess.

I agree with you Sid, but I do see the potential for Rhulic proxies as well, and that makes me happy.

Eh...I dunno. They just look like fantasy dwarves in plate armor with guns to me. So yeah, the space dwarves aren't really for me I guess.

What else would you expect them to be? Even so I'd argue that the armour plates look different to fantasy (Ironbreakers for instance) and that armour plated beards are immense

Mind you we can argue over sketches all we want. The proof is in the pudding, I'm looking forward to seeing the sculpts in a few months - that's when we'll find out if they're me'h, awesome or fail

I think the sketches are awesome. How much of that detail will be translated into 3D remains to be seen...

warspawned wrote:

Eh...I dunno. They just look like fantasy dwarves in plate armor with guns to me. So yeah, the space dwarves aren't really for me I guess.

What else would you expect them to be?

Something...spacey? I dunno, personal preference I guess. I appreciate if all my nerdy interests are kept separate...I don't mind swords or armor or other primitive stuff in sci-fi, but I don't like it so much when guys are running around with claymores and medieval plate mail instead of "monofilament blades" and "servo-powered combat armor" or something like that. I like it when it's not such an obvious port from a different universe altogether with guns tacked on almost like an afterthought.

Not that I'm judging Warpath negatively or anything like that, just saying I'm not blown away yet. I assume there will be a lot more races and maybe one of those will appeal more.

@Yakface
Yep, as I said, try out moving rules from AT-43 and you will see that Mantic took good note of them, since theirs are as fast as the AT-43 ones.

Sidstyler wrote:Something...spacey? I dunno, personal preference I guess. I appreciate if all my nerdy interests are kept separate...I don't mind swords or armor or other primitive stuff in sci-fi, but I don't like it so much when guys are running around with claymores and medieval plate mail instead of "monofilament blades" and "servo-powered combat armor" or something like that. I like it when it's not such an obvious port from a different universe altogether with guns tacked on almost like an afterthought.

I agree that the second hero (the one with the torso drawn separately) doesn't look like a sci-fi character, but the two heavy weapons troopers are great. The mantles with the shoulder-mounted hardpoints are especially nice.

Now if the models live up to the concepts, I'll be a happy new Forgefather.

Sidstyler wrote:Eh...I dunno. They just look like fantasy dwarves in plate armor with guns to me. So yeah, the space dwarves aren't really for me I guess.

This is true, but a similar statement could be made for a space marine. "He looks like a knight in plate armor with a huge gun, really big shoulder pads and bell bottoms"

Still, most of us -myself included- think highly of the space marine asthetic.

@ yackface,
I haven't had a chance to look into the warpath rules I downloaded, but it's excellent to see that they've taken some good steps toward streamlining movement.

Wow those sketches look great. It looks like they will be giving their own take on dwarves in space rather than just copies of squats. It should really help if they do decide to distance themselves from GW. Not sure how you can say they aren't sci fi style. If you look at parts of armour in isolation it is cleary sci fi armour, it just that the shape retains a dwarf look.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Just go through all your posts and edit them KC
No one ever need know the truth

Right, I'm back to my latest book, Uncle Joe's, Rewriting History for Dummies, 28th revised edition

Ooooooh I dunno man. My anti Squat bashing was pretty bad. Id compare myself to a KKK member or a Neo Nazi as far as that goes

I really dig those Space Dwarves in Exo-Armor or whatever. Very cool designs.

We didn't have to go there, did we?

damn you mantic, now your going to get more of my money for dwarfs

Brother SRM wrote:I really dig those Space Dwarves in Exo-Armor or whatever. Very cool designs.

I do wish you would all not call them 'Dwarves' there Forgefathers , they have not been called Dwarves in Warpath Rules at all , and assuming there is a fluff section in warpath there Forgefathers...

Synthetik wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I really dig those Space Dwarves in Exo-Armor or whatever. Very cool designs.

I do wish you would all not call them 'Dwarves' there Forgefathers , they have not been called Dwarves in Warpath Rules at all , and assuming there is a fluff section in warpath there Forgefathers...

Short stature.
Broad build.
Human-looking.
Big beards.
Heavy armour.
Says Dwarves to me. Hell, Ronnie refered to them as Space Dwarves. Take a chill pill dude.

Yea, I bet space orcs wont be called orcs (or any different spellings of orcs) but they would still be in essence, space orcs

Orcs.... In SPACE.

No no no Grot.

Orcs...in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

And instead of yealling out WAAAAAAAAAAAGH, they'll yell out WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

No, they'll yell out Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave!

I guess it is an opportune time to get some Demiurg for future RT encounters. Or maybe even Squat survivors if Mantic is really set on putting them on those silly trikes.

Kanluwen wrote:No no no Grot.

Porcs...in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

Well if you are going to quote the Muppet Show get it right

In the grimdarkness of the future, even our beards have armor.

Space Orks = Sporks.

agnosto wrote:In the grimdarkness of the future, even our beards have armor.

/thread

beards + armor = WIN

Da Boss wrote:

Synthetik wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I really dig those Space Dwarves in Exo-Armor or whatever. Very cool designs.

I do wish you would all not call them 'Dwarves' there Forgefathers , they have not been called Dwarves in Warpath Rules at all , and assuming there is a fluff section in warpath there Forgefathers...

Short stature.
Broad build.
Human-looking.
Big beards.
Heavy armour.
Says Dwarves to me. Hell, Ronnie refered to them as Space Dwarves. Take a chill pill dude.

"Dude", read what I said, in the rules in never mentions dwarves, there called forgefathers, and this is where I think its all being miscast , everyone is assuming this is a 40K competitior, in the marketplace , it is, but having seen none of the background, none of the concept storyline , how can it be compared. Take this as a new product....a new game. IF its then spun out to be a 40k like universe , I will then be disappointed...

If those dwarfs even look half as good as those artworks and have the quality of the fantasy (abyssal) dwarfs, then I'm in big trouble.

Well there goes a butt load of my money!!

Those Dwarves (sorry forgefathers for the very anal) look fantastic. They all look really good but the second hero looks fan bloody tastic, thats without arms too. Imagine how good he will look with his arms too, with big guns and hammer and axes and more guns and fists. Sorry I need to go and calm down I think

Any sci fi wargame is a 40K competitor, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

forgefathers for the very anal

My Dad must belong to that self help group.

He is always telling everyone that I am a complete arse!

Synthetik wrote:
"Dude", read what I said, in the rules in never mentions dwarves, there called forgefathers, and this is where I think its all being miscast , everyone is assuming this is a 40K competitior, in the marketplace , it is, but having seen none of the background, none of the concept storyline , how can it be compared. Take this as a new product....a new game. IF its then spun out to be a 40k like universe , I will then be disappointed...

This is just plain pedantic, and this is coming from a grammar fascist. Speaking of, you don't need any ellipses in your post, and having a space before a comma is incorrect. Hell of a run on sentence too.

To the actual point: Are Ratlings not just Halflings? Are Squats not just Dwarves in space? Are Eldar not just Elves in space? These guys are space dwarves, through and through. It's a specific niche that Mantic is trying to fill. They can call them whatever the hell they want, but they're still Dwarves in space.

And nobody is particularly saying that this is an inherently bad thing, either.
I might pick some up, if they are good enough. I had a small squat force when I first started out, it might tickle my nostalgia buttons if they were done properly.
(I wasn't a fan of the "look" of the squat models, but I loved the Homeworld fluff and character of the race.)

Synthetik wrote:"Dude", read what I said, in the rules in never mentions dwarves, there called forgefathers, and this is where I think its all being miscast , everyone is assuming this is a 40K competitior, in the marketplace , it is, but having seen none of the background, none of the concept storyline , how can it be compared. Take this as a new product....a new game. IF its then spun out to be a 40k like universe , I will then be disappointed...

Have you read the rules?

The Forgefathers have a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer.

The Marauders have Grots, Killa Kans, Dreads, Trukks and Battlewagons.

The core rules even removed the Speed stat and replaced it with a Fast special rule, just like 40k.

Alpharius wrote:

Guildsman wrote:Wow, those are space dwarves. I mean, wow. Not even a little bit of subtlety; those are sci-fi dwarves, beards and everything.

Yes, and that is why they are awesome!

Hopefully the miniatures make the transition from concept art to reality intact.

If they do, I predict a big seller for Mantic, as the not-Squats appear as 'counts as' IG on 40K battlefields everywhere...

As a couple of people have said on this thread, many people buy Mantic stuff to use in their WFB armies (perhaps a lot more than for the actual rule system).
In a way it's a clever idea for a business, they are filling the void left by people who simply can't afford, or are unwilling, to spend so much on GW's own miniatures.

In that way, far from being IG proxies (that armour and tough look is surely worth more than T3 and ineffective armour?) I would say these guys are almost a confirmation that GW has got it's own Demiurg line not to far away, perhaps with the next Tau codex, and these will provide an alternative at a quarter of the price.

If that's correct, then the slightly amusing thing is that lots of people will buy these space-dwarves before they even know about the Demiurg, thanks to GW's new anally retentive policy on secrets of new releases.

I know this is a lot of supposition on my part, but if the above is true, then it's a double whammy on Mantic's part and indicative of some smart thinking. Provide far lower cost miniatures for GWs own games (making use of the largest market in wargaming) and at the same time pre-empt GW on their own model releases, taking advantage of the shocking arrogance of not thinking that any kind of forewarning or marketing is needed for their new miniature ranges.

Mantics... filling in the void as a cheap alternative for GW armies is a quick way to get recognition into their product.

But once they get enough recognition, they need to work extra hard in getting the core rules right (beat the metal while its hot )
Or else they will forever be known as just a cheap GW alternative , and unable to break out of that mold.
And be stuck filling orders of w/e warhammer players need instead of a whole brand new army.

LunaHound wrote:Mantics... filling in the void as a cheap alternative for GW armies is a quick way to get recognition into their product.

But once they get enough recognition, they need to work extra hard in getting the core rules right (beat the metal while its hot )
Or else they will forever be known as just a cheap GW alternative , and unable to break out of that mold.
And be stuck filling orders of w/e warhammer players need instead of a whole brand new army.

Exactly.

GalaxyGames wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Mantics... filling in the void as a cheap alternative for GW armies is a quick way to get recognition into their product.

But once they get enough recognition, they need to work extra hard in getting the core rules right (beat the metal while its hot )
Or else they will forever be known as just a cheap GW alternative , and unable to break out of that mold.
And be stuck filling orders of w/e warhammer players need instead of a whole brand new army.

Exactly.

Not sure I agree. A succsessfull ruleset is not a necessity for becoming a sucessfull and well regarded miniatures company.
A few examples a among many.

Pig Iron: Great figs, never did come out with the ruleset that was hinted a few years back. No one looks badly on them.

Reaper: Excellent and long running reputation in the gaming minis world. However, Cav 2 flopped, and how many people do you actually know that play Warlord?

Ground Zero Games: They had 3 fairly well regarded classic rulesets, but they've been out of print for years (free downloads now) and most folks have moved to other games. Still they sell so many miniatures that they had to close down for a month to catch up with orders.

GW and PP have fooled alot of folks into thinking that certain figs should only go with certain games, but there are an awful lot of minis companies doing just fine without a successfull acompanying game.

Eilif wrote:Not sure I agree. A succsessfull ruleset is not a necessity for becoming a sucessfull and well regarded miniatures company.

I dont agree either :3

Pig Iron: Great figs, never did come out with the ruleset that was hinted a few years back. No one looks badly on them.

They are mostly known for conversion kits, thats it. The entire range of their complete kits are little to none. Cant be grouped in same situation as Mantic

Reaper: Excellent and long running reputation in the gaming minis world. However, Cav 2 flopped, and how many people do you actually know that play Warlord?

When was the last time you saw massed army using Reaper miniatures? they are known for individual figures for collection. Not the same situation as Mantic which they need to sell in bulk.

Ground Zero Games: They had 3 fairly well regarded classic rulesets, but they've been out of print for years (free downloads now) and most folks have moved to other games. Still they sell so many miniatures that they had to close down for a month to catch up with orders.

Dont know them , so cant respond.

GW and PP have fooled alot of folks into thinking that certain figs should only go with certain games, but there are an awful lot of minis companies doing just fine without a successfull acompanying game.

Are we talking about aesthetic designs?

LunaHound wrote:

Eilif wrote:Not sure I agree. A succsessfull ruleset is not a necessity for becoming a sucessfull and well regarded miniatures company.

I dont agree either :3

Pig Iron: Great figs, never did come out with the ruleset that was hinted a few years back. No one looks badly on them.

They are mostly known for conversion kits, thats it. The entire range of their complete kits are little to none. Cant be grouped in same situation as Mantic

Reaper: Excellent and long running reputation in the gaming minis world. However, Cav 2 flopped, and how many people do you actually know that play Warlord?

When was the last time you saw massed army using Reaper miniatures? they are known for individual figures for collection. Not the same situation as Mantic which they need to sell in bulk.

Ground Zero Games: They had 3 fairly well regarded classic rulesets, but they've been out of print for years (free downloads now) and most folks have moved to other games. Still they sell so many miniatures that they had to close down for a month to catch up with orders.

Dont know them , so cant respond.

GW and PP have fooled alot of folks into thinking that certain figs should only go with certain games, but there are an awful lot of minis companies doing just fine without a successfull acompanying game.

Are we talking about aesthetic designs?

My bad, "Awful lot" is an old american slang for "very many".

As to Pig Iron,
Can't agree with you there. On GW'centric boards you mostly hear about their heads, but outside of GW'dom Pig Iron actually has a wide, well regarded, and quickly growing range of figures covering Troopers (light, heavy and special forces types) Rebels, and Scavneger/Ferrals, as well as vehicles.

Regarding Reaper,
It's true that most folks don't collect a massed army of reaper, but GW's really the only 28mm company that has been widely successfull with massed fantasy rules. The point is that reaper sells to many RPG players, collectors, and players of other games without needing rules.

Mantic is unique only in that they are the only folks trying to sell massed 28mm armies at prices. Other than that, they're just another successfull miniatures company whose fans are more interested in their minis than thier games. They haven't need a succesfull ruleset thus far for their fantasy figs and I don't see why they need it now for their sci-fi figs.

It would potentially cost absolutely diddly-squit to play KoW or Warpath if one already has the armies.

or even if you didn't like Mantics range, and wanted to start out and could afford it, buy GW or AN Other & Sons Co. models

I like that.
It opens up the possibilities for a more diverse gaming world. So refreshing from the didacticism of certain games companies.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It would potentially cost absolutely diddly-squit to play KoW or Warpath if one already has the armies.

Agreed. If I can convince the club to try them out, we'll give Warpath a try. With the rules being free, there's a good chance they'll at least give it a try but if not, I won't be dissapointed by having dropped 40-80 bucks on a rulebook that no one wants to play.

I read through the rules a few times and like what I'm seeing so far. We play alot of Song of Blades and Heroes and WarEngine, and this fits well into our preferences for fast-play, rules-lite systems.

Edit: Accidentaly put KoW instad of Warpath

Off topic a moment
Just acquired SoBH
I like the not too many numbers to make my poor head hurt.

If they like that sort of game then it shouldn't be a problem getting a KoW try out at your club.

Have played it entirely by proxying WHFB minis
As there is no WYSIWYG to worry about there are no problems at all. We didn't have enought Undead but were able to use WoC as Revenants, DE crosswbows as Undead archers

It worked fine.

It's a very good rule set. If you are looking for a quick tactical ruleset that means your playing the player rather than the army I recommend it. It isn't for everyone but that is down to people wanting more in depth, complex rules. The same things apply to warpath.

4M2A wrote:It's a very good rule set. If you are looking for a quick tactical ruleset that means your playing the player rather than the army I recommend it. It isn't for everyone but that is down to people wanting more in depth, complex rules. The same things apply to warpath.

Agreed. Its 3-dice-gambling-activation mechanic is completely different from any ruleset I've played, and some folks might not immidiately take to it, but our entire club likes it.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Off topic a moment
Just acquired SoBH
I like the not too many numbers to make my poor head hurt.

If they like that sort of game then it shouldn't be a problem getting a KoW try out at your club.

Have played it entirely by proxying WHFB minis
As there is no WYSIWYG to worry about there are no problems at all. We didn't have enought Undead but were able to use WoC as Revenants, DE crosswbows as Undead archers
It worked fine.

oops, I meant Warpath, not KoW

Glad to hear that you liked SoBH. Mixing miniatures is the best part of SoBH. Technically there are no proxies because there is not established miniatures line. You use whatever figures you have. We once played a game where we counted 6 different brands of figures on the same table. If you're creative with searching through different companies catalogs you can make some pretty unique-but-cohesive warbands.

If Warpath eventually releases enough army lists to cover our existing figure collections, we'll probably play it. I'm probably one of the only members who's going to buy warpath figures, but we've all got multiple Sci-Fi forces from various manufactureres. Unfortunately KoW and Warpath don't have unit building mechanisms. What we like about Warengine and SoBH is that you can easily stat up any unit you have.

Quite
I love the fact that I can use what I have already, and can just buy/make what takes my fancy.
Not having to buy armies any more means I can be selective and afford some top class figures.

I really like the flexibility and diversity of such systems.
eg Have some neglected LoTR models so with the rules downloaded free they may get a run out too.

See what you mean about the stats for units, but if Warpath introduces similar races to GW then you maybe able to proxy an existing army.
Especially when just trying out the system, a free run out only costs a bit of time to play.

Bell of Lost Souls has some concept art for the Orx Marauders. They still look like chimpanzees, so as far as I'm concerned, they're still .

I quite liked the KoW orcs, they offered an alternative concept to the GW ones.

Admittedly it won't be everyone's cup of tea (personally, the massive, body-sized heads have always put me off the 40k GW ones, and I'm hoping these will go towards a more RT-esque, less bestial style of ork..sorry orc.. orx ?!) but the price point will most likely be hard to argue with.

AlexHolker wrote:Bell of Lost Souls has some concept art for the Orx Marauders. They still look like chimpanzees, so as far as I'm concerned, they're still .

They look fine to me. Both similar and different from GW.

As was said, they're not going to be everyone's favorite, but nothing about the design seems bad or poorly done.

I like the longer faces.

Mad max orx (hehe spelling) in space. I dearly hope one race will look suitably sci fi without basically sci fi medieval armor

Has anyone got a link to the pics (there are 3) other than the BoLS ones that they could post here?

Some more pics over on BoLS, well worth a look-see!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--Fqd6FJVJMU/Tf63pqmGsyI/AAAAAAAAKFM/0wu6irVI64k/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+2+Mantic+Games.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-647CKlxdrtM/Tf63wpK_aOI/AAAAAAAAKFQ/FT2OStEOk-g/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+1+Mantic+Games.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GDIrTWshQvE/Tf632AYzyVI/AAAAAAAAKFU/iuhmDExUCYc/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Double+Handed+Weapons.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r2kHDU3WpSU/Tf636Vy69bI/AAAAAAAAKFY/h59200WiNXg/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Single+Handed+Weapons.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i7ArKNLy56c/Tf639-G00BI/AAAAAAAAKFc/vH0xjlcvrps/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Weapons+Mantic+Games.jpg

I'm quite liking the direction these are taking. Yes, it's indisputable that they are a rip-off job (the name in particular is hilarious), but if anything I think they are copying a concept of 'ork' that hasn't existed within GW for some time, since Rogue Trader days in fact. That of the ork as a brutish, mercenary (but still barely civilized) alien race. The 40k ork has been steadily becoming more and more bestial with each incarnation, to the point where they the only intellectual capability they possess is purely instinctual.

I feel that these guys hark back to earlier days, to a battle on a farm and an ork warboss trying to get his paws on a horde of treasure (how out of place does that seem now?) Surely it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but that combined with a price that won't require a second mortgage to pick up an army is sure to bring Mantic some adherents.

Man they're really not trying to hide it are they.

It looks increasingly like Warpath will be Rogue Trader Lite.

I await their Emperial Roobots and Aldar Raiders with glee [sic].

Clearly alot of ripping off here in terms of arms and armor. That said, I'm rather pleased with the crocodile asthetic they're going for with the face and feet. Reminds me of killer croc from Batman The Animated Series. I've not seen that as an ork before.

I'm trying to think just how they can't "rip off" everything else. I sincerely hope that they do take the "Rogue Trader" route. What I'm seeing is fantastic!

I really like the Orx, far more than I like Orks. The Rogue Trader style was so much better than what we have now. This is further evidence that Warpath is going to be 40k as it should have been, offering things that current 40k doesn't. I can't wait to see what other armies they have planned. I probably won't be too keen on Not -Eldar, as i already have tons of Eldar, and love them. Not-Exodites or Not-Corsairs may appeal. Personally, I'm hoping for Not-Hrud and Not-Slann. Maybe Not-Lost-and-Damned.

Looks exciting! Hopefully multipart plastics that actually loook GOOD will follow. Not wild about anything from mantic so far...

To me it looks like fantasy Dwarfs and Orcs with guns. The Orc wears a skirt and metal armour for Christ's sake! Mantic should do more than just add new arms and the odd bionic eye to their Fantasy range. Also not a fan of the Hummer and the Thundercats, but we will see.

Have to agree with koothawk, so far to me it looks like fantasy with more guns and more head accessories

But that is pretty much what Rogue Trader was; Fantasy in a sci fi setting.

Between this and PP sci fi line due out next year, I am intrigued.

I've read the 13 pages of rules for their fantasy battle game, I like it, it's very streamlined with only necessary diagrams. All the rules are available online and the models are inexpensive.

The warpath rules seem right to me, i guess is how to word it. As a new 40k player still learning the rules i read the 18 pages of rules, looked over at my BGB and went hmm why didnt they do it like this. As far as the models go, so far i like what i see.

Pacific wrote:Some more pics over on BoLS, well worth a look-see!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--Fqd6FJVJMU/Tf63pqmGsyI/AAAAAAAAKFM/0wu6irVI64k/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+2+Mantic+Games.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-647CKlxdrtM/Tf63wpK_aOI/AAAAAAAAKFQ/FT2OStEOk-g/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+1+Mantic+Games.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GDIrTWshQvE/Tf632AYzyVI/AAAAAAAAKFU/iuhmDExUCYc/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Double+Handed+Weapons.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r2kHDU3WpSU/Tf636Vy69bI/AAAAAAAAKFY/h59200WiNXg/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Single+Handed+Weapons.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i7ArKNLy56c/Tf639-G00BI/AAAAAAAAKFc/vH0xjlcvrps/s1600/Marauder+Trooper+Weapons+Mantic+Games.jpg

I'm quite liking the direction these are taking. Yes, it's indisputable that they are a rip-off job (the name in particular is hilarious), but if anything I think they are copying a concept of 'ork' that hasn't existed within GW for some time, since Rogue Trader days in fact. That of the ork as a brutish, mercenary (but still barely civilized) alien race. The 40k ork has been steadily becoming more and more bestial with each incarnation, to the point where they the only intellectual capability they possess is purely instinctual.

I feel that these guys hark back to earlier days, to a battle on a farm and an ork warboss trying to get his paws on a horde of treasure (how out of place does that seem now?) Surely it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but that combined with a price that won't require a second mortgage to pick up an army is sure to bring Mantic some adherents.

Love the look

The pics are nice... however, I really want to see how the models turn out, as I've seen Mantic artwork that looks great before... and then the models, not so much :-/

Any ideas on what other races will be in this game?

Looking at their Kings of War range, it would be a safe bet to say anything that's currently in 40k; So, space elves, bugs, humans, evil humans etc. etc.

Personally I am hoping for a nice human range, the Space Dwarves to be as good as their concept art, and for space undead!

++EDIT++ I believe they said originally 8 races, with a mystery 9th race? Not completely sure on that though. ++

Hmm yes they'll probably aim for the 40k crowd although they could toss in a surprise or two

I just hope they dont do german inspired greatcoat troopers for humans, I am sick and tired of seeing those guys done wrong.

After reading the vomit that 6th edition is rumored to become?


!@#$ it, I'm sold, mantic.


THANK YOU for doing the right thing here and running a better system by far. I am not easily impressed by models, but I am completely sold in this case.

I'm not cheesed on the fantasy stuff, but the guys for this new Sci-Fi game are the dogs!


I'm in.

Love the look


I like the fact you have an add on for ard boys and that gun at the top of the last pic seems interesting

Grot 6 wrote:After reading the vomit that 6th edition is rumored to become?


!@#$ it, I'm sold, mantic.

Please!

The 6th edition rumor thread is filled with wishlisting, whispers, ill conceived ideas and vaporware deluxe - I highly doubt that even 10% of what's in there will come to pass.

As for Mantic's Warpath rules... I don't know.

An awful lot of abstractions going on... Seems a little too AT-43ish for me, at first glance.

While I'm rather disappointed that their Sci-fi stuff is just rehashed 40k. The possibility of a good 40k-esque rule set does have potential.

George Spiggott wrote:While I'm rather disappointed that their Sci-fi stuff is just rehashed 40k. The possibility of a good 40k-esque rule set does have potential.

Couldn't agree more. I understand that selling counts-as GW models for cheap is their bread and butter, and I'm totally ok with that. But did they have to do not-Orks so soon? I know it makes good business sense, but I would much rather see not-Guard or not-chaos first.

Probably becuase its much cheaper to make a few conversion bitz, new races would require a much bigger investment

The sci fi races are new sprues, according to mantic fanatic sources.

Looks interesting. Really want to see the actual spruces.

kenshin620 wrote:Probably becuase its much cheaper to make a few conversion bitz, new races would require a much bigger investment

It has been stated by someone who works for mantic that these models will NOT be conversion bitz for their existing fantasy dwarves and orcs, like the abyssal dwarves were.

They will be 100% new sculpts.

In other words, not a half-assed effort. We'll be getting a proper set of plastics (probably 4 kits for each race on release), along with either hybrid metal or resin plastic for the smaller elite units in each list that have 5-10 models.

Naturally, it'll also be a dead certainty that there will be a starter box absolutely crammed with plastic... probably twice as many models as Black Reach, for about 30% cheaper.

Orks are one of the most popular armies that they can easily do without treading on GW's IP, and Forgefathers are a bold attempt to make some headlines and come out with a new and massively better take on a potentially very cool concept that GW haven't attempted to do anything with for 15 years.

Forgefathers effectively are a new race, and something totally new from mantic. Their background and miniatures will look absolutely nothing like the silly attempt at harley davidson riding fantasy dwarfs that GW made 20 years ago and then had eaten by tyranids instead of bothering to come up with something more creative for them.

Ah well I stand corrected

Maybe they'll make better elves in space then.......

Ah, now the space elves I'm not so sure about.

I actually consider the eldar to be one of the most interesting things that GW has done. Jes Goodwin's personal project that only really borrows the stereotypes of "dying race" and "tall with pointy ears". Beyond those similarities there is a whole lot of interesting background and the design of the models is something that I feel is genuinely unique and not a direct rip from some other source.

A lot of the appeal of the eldar comes from that background, and mantic will have to be careful about how they depict theirs... certainly making them fay pixies like their fantasy elves will not go down well.

A corsair approach could work really well though, that's a sort of neutral, mostly self-serving faction in-between the dark eldar and craftworld eldar that hasn't received much attention since rogue trader days.. all eldar were corsairs back then, so it would fit well with the rogue trader vibe they seem to have going on.

For example.. some background text like a bunch of forgefathers fighting a bloody battle to defend a rich asteroid against marauders... then after the battle ending in a bloody stalemate the eldar show up, wipe out the remaining survivors and steal the resources would be a very interesting way to depict the various races and how they go about things.

I'd like to see a real struggle over critical resources, such as planets with a breathable atmosphere and rare elements... both things are in incredibly short supply in the galaxy, complete needles in haystacks.

Amongst all the condemnations flying about, here is a quite well written blog post about why PP and Mantic's games (Kings of War and the forthcoming Warpath) might well be beneficial not only to us as hobbyists, but to the whole industry and even GW in the long term.

I recommend that everyone read it!

http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/06/in-defense-of-being-similar.html

Good article

Only thing I'd say is that it is a little early to declare Level 7 a 40k clone/competitor, when all we know about it is it is a sci-fi game - without knowing the degree of grimdark or the scale (both in terms of models and number of models), that comparison is tricky to make.

Having said that, I'm willing to retract this statement if future news indicates that it is aimed squarely at the 40k market.

I saw this earlier today. Check out Mantic's new video!

http://youtu.be/H-e0q2EBkkE

I love how they always leave wee teasers and easter eggs in the background.

Rule No1: We dont talk about race.

Rule No2: We dont talk about race 8

wonder what race 8 will be, must be the big bad race that can end the galaxy.

I dont think Race 8 is for Warpath, more likely for KoW since only 7 of their 8 races are known (even though its quite obvious the only fantasy niche they're missing is humans, how they'll look though...)

kenshin620 wrote:I dont think Race 8 is for Warpath, more likely for KoW since only 7 of their 8 races are known (even though its quite obvious the only fantasy niche they're missing is humans, how they'll look though...)

Race 8 is listed as an ally option in one of the army lists in the Alpha, so in this instance it is for Warpath.

Ahh I see, I havent see that yet

Mantic videos really need to be abit more professional looking -_-
its hard to take them seriously otherwise.

LunaHound wrote:Mantic videos really need to be abit more professional looking -_-
its hard to take them seriously otherwise.

I think that's the point!

Baragash wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:I dont think Race 8 is for Warpath, more likely for KoW since only 7 of their 8 races are known (even though its quite obvious the only fantasy niche they're missing is humans, how they'll look though...)

Race 8 is listed as an ally option in one of the army lists in the Alpha, so in this instance it is for Warpath.

They also mention that they don't talk about race 8 in the announcement video on BOW.

Also the alpha has me impressed so far im loving it.

Hm, just some comments: You can call then space dwarfs, but please dont call then squats or demiurgs. If you want to be "less generic" go for Forgefathers.

I posted this is the Mantic forum, and there is other "primordial races" to use in sci-fi, whyle elves can be kept in a very orginal "wood elves" style (living ships, less barbaric elements, green and white with gems).
Some primordial races are the Greys, the short big eyed, super techie X-files aliens.
The others are the neves explored Space Dragons. I hope to see some more originality, as until now nothing except rules looks 40k copy...

Sorry dude, they'll always be Squats to me. I'm even considering painting an "S" on thier armor.

[/img]lol

I understando you... S of Stubborn, and Strong...

I could not help myself, when you say Squat i remember this:

+=

Call them as you want, but squats will always remember that...

Does anyone know when the beta will be out?

This week Choco'Gork iirc
Check on BoW or the Mantic website for news

Grot 6 wrote:After reading the vomit that 6th edition is rumored to become?


!@#$ it, I'm sold, mantic.


THANK YOU for doing the right thing here and running a better system by far. I am not easily impressed by models, but I am completely sold in this case.

So, on the basis of a bunch of rumours from an anonymous source and an unreleased game system, you're already 'completely sold' on the latter. And you wonder why GW doesn't seem to take the internet seriously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scarletsquig wrote:Orks are one of the most popular armies that they can easily do without treading on GW's IP, and Forgefathers are a bold attempt to make some headlines and come out with a new and massively better take on a potentially very cool concept that GW haven't attempted to do anything with for 15 years.

Forgefathers effectively are a new race, and something totally new from mantic. Their background and miniatures will look absolutely nothing like the silly attempt at harley davidson riding fantasy dwarfs that GW made 20 years ago and then had eaten by tyranids instead of bothering to come up with something more creative for them.

Sorry, but the artwork appears to contradict you. These designs are still obviously based on the Squats. The padded uniforms, big gloves, oversized guns and pseudo-Celtic theme to the armour are 'copied from' rather than 'inspired by' the GW models. They're still essentially, as a couple of other posters have pointed out, space dwarves, and there's no doubt that Mantic are looking to pick up on the apparent demand for Squat models. If they'd dropped the beards and the Celtic theme, then it would be something new.

They as though they could be very nice models. But don't pretend there's anything particularly revolutionary going on here.

From the Mantic newsletter:

Finally, this is the last newsletter before we send out the free Warpath Beta rules and army lists. You guys will get them first – so please, pretty please (with laz-guns) get your mates, friends, wives, servants or your pets (we don’t recommend Orcs) to sign-up! so they get a first look at the beta too!

I do quite like how the Orx look, no matter how, um, similar they are. Still, it would be fun to have a game with orcs are some kind of green skinned technologically advanced super race!

I don't recall seeing anything Celtic about the design either GW or Mantic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed on the BoW site that there is a subscription for the Beta rules - top right corner
hth

Beta release delay makes me a SAAAAAD PANDA :(

Just checked the mantic blog, 4 days remaining till beta is released Cant wait, but I am really wanting to see some pics of models. The concept art looks amazing, I just really hope that the models capture a lot of the detail thats on the sketches are are not to bland.

Less than six hours remaining until the Beta rules release. If ye haven't already, be sure to sign up to the Mantic newsletter!

Just got the beta rules and the Marauders and Forgefather's army lists. Looking through them now.

So culling the 'named' races in Warpath based of the Allies section of the army lists, we have:

Marauders (Orcs)
Forgefathers (Dwarves)
Corporation
Rebs
Asterians
'the eighth race'

Leaves 2 at large if there really are eight. Discuss as to the lineage of the other named and at large races. I'd have to say Corporation/Humans, Rebs/Pirate Humans, Asterians/Elfy-things. So that would leave some type of Robot, Bug and possibly (gasp) some new race?

Reading thru the beta and the game feels like how 40k would have ended up ruleswise if it went with just Fantasy in space. I"m not even sure why you need a lot of models besides determining a foot print since you don't remove models.

Hmm, really not digging this. Not removing models isn't a mechanic I can get behind.

Fetterkey wrote:Hmm, really not digging this. Not removing models isn't a mechanic I can get behind.

Yeah, I'm not too up on that, either. Why even have individual models instead of a multi-model base if the individual models don't matter(reading through the rest of the rules, it doesn't really matter, either other than to determine where the footprint is)?

I guess its to appeal to the 40k crowd more since most likely they'll use the same base system. That means you can easily swap from game systems without too much hassle

After reading the marauders, I wonder what their Stunt Bots and Battle Bots are going to look like

I am not a fan of the non-removed models either but I think the point of individual- over mult- model bases is so they can interact with terraini more.

You have more options to hug buildings etc.

Platuan4th wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Hmm, really not digging this. Not removing models isn't a mechanic I can get behind.

Yeah, I'm not too up on that, either. Why even have individual models instead of a multi-model base if the individual models don't matter(reading through the rest of the rules, it doesn't really matter, either other than to determine where the footprint is)?

Yeah I'm not feeling this system either. It -kind of- made sense in Kings of War, but again, the models are just like markers. Not a huge fan of that in the very least and unless it's changed in the actual version of the rules, I'm going to give it a pass.

That being said, I'm looking forward to the models, especially any kind of humans.

Not removing models? Nah. I like my models to mean something.

Pass.

Tailgunner wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:Orks are one of the most popular armies that they can easily do without treading on GW's IP, and Forgefathers are a bold attempt to make some headlines and come out with a new and massively better take on a potentially very cool concept that GW haven't attempted to do anything with for 15 years.

Forgefathers effectively are a new race, and something totally new from mantic. Their background and miniatures will look absolutely nothing like the silly attempt at harley davidson riding fantasy dwarfs that GW made 20 years ago and then had eaten by tyranids instead of bothering to come up with something more creative for them.

Sorry, but the artwork appears to contradict you. These designs are still obviously based on the Squats. The padded uniforms, big gloves, oversized guns and pseudo-Celtic theme to the armour are 'copied from' rather than 'inspired by' the GW models. They're still essentially, as a couple of other posters have pointed out, space dwarves, and there's no doubt that Mantic are looking to pick up on the apparent demand for Squat models. If they'd dropped the beards and the Celtic theme, then it would be something new.

They as though they could be very nice models. But don't pretend there's anything particularly revolutionary going on here.

You are trolling right? Squats dont have any celtic theme in them, Fantasy dwarfs from GW have some nordic theme, but Mantic dont have it at all (much more steam punk). The concepts show power armored dwarves, not padded ones, and those guns are supposed to be BFGs, the ones equivalent to plasma cannons and multi-meltas. But goying beyond that, if you look at the silhouete of the ranges (GW vs Mantic) you will see two higly different styles. And looking at the fluff, Mantic dont have much of it ready, but we can see at first glance that Forgefathers are an entirely new concept of dwarfs in space, at least, very different from Squats.

About the rules (the reason i got here at first): well just have looked at the Beta, and it look incredible, well, it is exactly what i wanted. Less chance, more movement and tactics. I liked the "you must choose assault or shoot" thing, and damaging armor dont need an entirely new rule set, rules for flyers (ok, 40k had that, but droped it some editions ago, and it worked in pretty the same way), and "reserves rules" looks nice too. What i dont liked: top armor is the same as rear armor, no "deep strike", to much shoot.

The "casualties" thing is pretty strange. In KoW it worked well, but in warpath it looks misplaced. Anyway, no rule say you could not use trays for your units, and no rule in the game bring advantage/disvantage for that (except cover ones). If you really like casualties so much, speak with your oponent, and agree to use "models removal" as wounds counter. That will bring some advantage for you (easyer hidding and cover), but can do the work.

Some cents o mine...

Eh, I'm not that put-off by not removing models. I'll still give it a try.

Ouroborus wrote:Eh, I'm not that put-off by not removing models. I'll still give it a try.

Exactly. For all those who like removing models, give it a try. Everything is worth one chance at the table right?

lord marcus wrote:

Ouroborus wrote:Eh, I'm not that put-off by not removing models. I'll still give it a try.

Exactly. For all those who like removing models, give it a try. Everything is worth one chance at the table right?

I didn't say that the game wasn't worth trying, only that the models are irrelevant to actually playing the game outside of determining what the unit's footprint is and LoS. Individually based models aren't needed for that.

Part of the reasoning for not removing models is to make the game quick and also to support the "one player does everything in their turn" idea.. so you're not physically removing your opponents models.

Other reasons include the spectacle of the game... lets face it, 40k armies do *not* look like armies these days, most of the time it's just a few transports and tanks on the table and the odd unit that has hopped out of it's transport.

With Mantic the thing you have to realise is, that despite the incessant droning of the internet, they really do actually take a different approach to things than GW does. Their rules are different. Their models look different, their background is different. It's a little bit closer to warmachine in terms of adding markers to things and having characters providing buffs and combos to units. Anyone who plays that game will probably get the hang of it really quickly, along with the "torunament" structure of the gameplay, with lots of very short player turns one after the other.

Their releases of models that are very similar to GW models is simply a crutch they need to get good sales and expand the company. As soon as that is done they want to ditch that approach and do their own thing. Fact of the matter is, there simply is no market that currently exists for sci-fi or fantasy plastic models that can't also be used in GW games. There just aren't enough customers to make back the £30k-£40k cost of cutting a mould to make the plastic sprues. There is no alternative.

All of you might sit here on the internet and say, "fishmen plastics would be awesome, mantic would be so cool and original and doing their own thing if they made those and not copying GW like dumb mindless sheep who steal other people's hard work"

.. but then, come the day that mantic releases their range of fishmen plastics, not a single one of you would buy them because you can't use them for your GW games that are played exclusively by 90% of the people you play with.


Look at VOID, AT-43, Warzone, Metropolis.

Those are mass-battle sci-fi games that have existed at some point in the last decade. The first 3 released plastics and went out of business. Metropolis only continues to exist due to being based on the more popular skirmish game Urban War. I'm not aware of many people who have heard of it and don't know anyone who plays it.

Mass-battle Sci-fi games are a dead market. It's 40k or nothing, the monopoly is totally complete and there is zero competition. You absolutely cannot succeed without cloning GW to some extent. Rackham had massive resources behind the production of AT-43.. the models, game, artwork and background were all really rather good. You could get a 2000-point army in a box for £60, entry point was cheap. It still completely and utterly failed, and Rackham now no longer exists.

I came into it not expecting to like it (I'm uninterested in any mass battle game) but it looks ok to play if I had nothing else to play or got burnt out on my normal games. The core rules are pretty good -except los, that feels like a copy/paste from 40k and it kind of sucks.
It sort of feels like fast food wargaming, the substance and flavor are acceptable, but never outstanding and undoubtedly cheap. Mantic actually gives off the vibe of wanting to be the burger king to gw's mcdonalds in general so I suppose that's a fitting analogy. As for me, I think I'll continue dining at privateer press' steakhouse or that anima tactics pancake house on the corner.
I'm not really sure why they make you use markers to show damage when irrelevant models are there just waiting to be scooped up. You would lose minimal los blocking ability but the unit would at least get a bit less unwieldy.

Mass war games aren't dead. 28mm mass war games are dead. There are plenty of lower scale games like Flames of War. Also all those games died for reasons out side just 'the market'.

WOW if 2000 points is average then they are BIG army's.

I like nearly all the rules. Especially the rules for hitting and the rules for vehicles. The rules for reinforcements are cool.

Although the models staying on is weird.

scarletsquig wrote:Part of the reasoning for not removing models is to make the game quick and also to support the "one player does everything in their turn" idea.. so you're not physically removing your opponents models.

Other reasons include the spectacle of the game... lets face it, 40k armies do *not* look like armies these days, most of the time it's just a few transports and tanks on the table and the odd unit that has hopped out of it's transport.

With Mantic the thing you have to realise is, that despite the incessant droning of the internet, they really do actually take a different approach to things than GW does. Their rules are different. Their models look different, their background is different. It's a little bit closer to warmachine in terms of adding markers to things and having characters providing buffs and combos to units. Anyone who plays that game will probably get the hang of it really quickly, along with the "torunament" structure of the gameplay, with lots of very short player turns one after the other.

Their releases of models that are very similar to GW models is simply a crutch they need to get good sales and expand the company. As soon as that is done they want to ditch that approach and do their own thing. Fact of the matter is, there simply is no market that currently exists for sci-fi or fantasy plastic models that can't also be used in GW games. There just aren't enough customers to make back the £30k-£40k cost of cutting a mould to make the plastic sprues. There is no alternative.

All of you might sit here on the internet and say, "fishmen plastics would be awesome, mantic would be so cool and original and doing their own thing if they made those and not copying GW like dumb mindless sheep who steal other people's hard work"

.. but then, come the day that mantic releases their range of fishmen plastics, not a single one of you would buy them because you can't use them for your GW games that are played exclusively by 90% of the people you play with.


Look at VOID, AT-43, Warzone, Metropolis.

Those are mass-battle sci-fi games that have existed at some point in the last decade. The first 3 released plastics and went out of business. Metropolis only continues to exist due to being based on the more popular skirmish game Urban War. I'm not aware of many people who have heard of it and don't know anyone who plays it.

Mass-battle Sci-fi games are a dead market. It's 40k or nothing, the monopoly is totally complete and there is zero competition. You absolutely cannot succeed without cloning GW to some extent. Rackham had massive resources behind the production of AT-43.. the models, game, artwork and background were all really rather good. You could get a 2000-point army in a box for £60, entry point was cheap. It still completely and utterly failed, and Rackham now no longer exists.

Ok, while I agree with some of your arguments, others are a little too simplistic. Regarding removing troops, ok, well it's a minor mechanic, and you either like it or you don't, it shouldn't be a deal breaker, IMHO. I remember playing with my Ultramarine army back in the day.....I'd just finished doing, what I thought, was a great paintjob.....so I deployed my forces, and in the first turn, this guy raped me hard......I was literally pulling units off the table that had been there for like 10mins.......I felt like I'd painted those guys for nothing.....this is a feeling you wouldn't necessarily get with Warpath.

Regarding their business model, and comparrisons to Urban War et al. First of all, Urban War is more like a skrimish game than a mass war game, in which case, you need to be comparing that to Infinity, Warmachine etc....which of course blows your argument out, as those games seem to have a decent and growing following. AT-43 went dead because of the company running the show, and some of the less market savvy decisions the corporate made.....I don't think it had anything to do with the game, or at the most, very little to do with the game.

Syaing that Mass-battle Sci Fi games are dead are a dead market is soo far off the mark it hurts. Have you taken a look at the associated products markets? Like computer games, books, films etc......Sci Fi is as big now as it ever was, perhaps even bigger, and that means most derivative products based on that genre are going to be successful if managed correctly. Now, I'm not saying that just because you slap a Sci Fi sticker on your product, you will find yourself amoung the Fortune 500, but, if you get the right mix, and apply the right feel, I think you can almost guarantee a degree of success.

Are Mantic doing this right? Well, ok, I get the economics / market trend analysis.....and again, while simplistic, I agree with you. However, it's a short term gain that will damage any potential for long term sustainability. So , what the hel am I talking about? Mantic wants to run 8 races, and from what we can see, most of them are derivative from GW I.P. Mantic will most likely milk these guys dry, pumping any investment capital they have into making them as attractive as they can.....this puts them into a dangerous position.

1. They are really tied to what GW does, if GW suddenly decides that all their Orks get eaten by Nids, suddenly Mantic have a ton of derivative figures that are only applicable to their own game, and they will lose their "secondary" market...i.e the GW players.

2. Now they have invested so much into their derivative products, can or will they be able to afford to invest the same levels of resource into designing new races? If so, will it be at the expense of current races? and won't they have the same problem as point one, the potential to lose thier "secondary" market...the GW players?

In short, this hope that they will somehow start to develop their own way is optimistic at best.....it's clearly not a business objective for them to do so. Some of you will jump up now and shout "Well GW doesn't make Sci Fi dwarves".....at the moment, that's true, but when these guys sit on shelves after the initial "rush", I can't help wondering if they will be pushed by Mantic to the same extent as other products.

Looking at it, just looks to me like you might spend quite a bit of time moving models. There again, at least you don't have to move them more than once per turn, but in early game 40k (when you have the most models) this is often true as well.
Model removal makes sense in that it makes the game faster as you go along. Since everything counts on the unit leader anyway, and it's only footprint that is being changed, I am dubious about not removing models but willing to give it a go.
Looking at the list though, one thing that occurs to me is that competing with GW for my Ork love, GW offers me a much bigger selection of units...

I am so happy that Alessio isn't writing 40k 6th edition.

I like his vehicle rules more, but the rest I can take or leave to be honest.

Delephont wrote:Regarding their business model, and comparrisons to Urban War et al. First of all, Urban War is more like a skrimish game than a mass war game, in which case, you need to be comparing that to Infinity, Warmachine etc....which of course blows your argument out, as those games seem to have a decent and growing following. AT-43 went dead because of the company running the show, and some of the less market savvy decisions the corporate made.....I don't think it had anything to do with the game, or at the most, very little to do with the game..

I did not mention sci-fi skirmish games in my post for a reason - they are indeed very popular.

I did not compare to Urban War. At no point in my entire post did I compare to Urban War. The entire comment was about mass-battle sci-fi games.

I listed 4 mass-battle sci-fi games on a seperate and you completely ignored all of those and went straight to stating that my comment was "comparing to Urban War etc.". This is very irritating.

I compared to Metropolis, the mass-battle version of urban war. Sales for this game were not as good as sales for urban war, because sci-fi mass-battle games are not as popular as skirmish sci-fi games, which do indeed have a big following. Again, at no point did I state that this was not the case.

In short, this hope that they will somehow start to develop their own way is optimistic at best.....it's clearly not a business objective for them to do so.

Yes it is, Ronnie himself has stated that they will be adding 2 completely new and unique races to Kings of War as the 9th and 10th armies. Warpath could easily go in the same direction.


Also, sorry for this comment being terse, I'm still grumpy at having to deal with some of the more annoying posters elsewhere on the internet.

I basically agree with the rest of your post including the stuff about rackham and the individual model removal and I accept that "dead market" was probably a bit too much of a hyperbolic statement from me.

With the exception of model removal (which would change the nerve mechanic fundamental to both Warpath and KoW) there seems very little that is contentious about the rules.

Vehicles being able to independently target all their weapons? Given that a Mk I could do that its a bit odd that in WH40K they can't 40,000 years into the future.

Having the guy with the missile launcher shoot at the tank while the rest of his squad fire their gat's at the infantry? Its a piece of common sense that is not allowed in 40k (outwith Long Fangs)

Having generic special rules with multiple levels of effectiveness instead of a sprawling morass of USR's and codex-specific rules that do nothing but overlap into one rules argument after another? Is this not exactly what a lot of 40k players in general and tournament players in particular have been crying out for for years?


As for the races/background etc - given that we have no information at all beyond the concept sketches for the first two races and the names of four others, isn't it a bit premature to be saying how things will turn out?

Ronnie and Alessio on turn 8 when Warpath was announced said their would be more than 8 races (not sure where only having 8 races has come from) and I am expecting to see some GW-clones to start with then some new stuff later - KoW is doing the same thing. They have already announced there will be 10 races of which the first 8 are generic fantasy armies (Men, Undead, Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Evil Elves, Dwarfs, Evil Dwarfs) to be followed by 2 races unique to KoW.

I'll wait to see how the background and models pan out before making a final decision but I like what I've seen so far


Damn!, partial Ninja by scarletsquig

I've looked over the Beta and figured out it's pretty much not for me. The game size is just too large. I'm partially interested in trying it out at the 500-1000 point level though.

I think theres an important aspect though that can easily make mantic sci fi more survivable than other "mass combat games"

Mantic does entire armies in somewhat more affordable plastic (with the exception of metal hybrids which are almost as expensive as GW kits). Very few other games had plastic (warzone only had two types, and that was way back then)

Yes some designs are hit or miss but unless they do royally screw up a lot of the designs (and hey, even companies like WGF can sell their fugly models), I doubt mantic wont get profitable with warpath. Gaming wise will be interesting to see though

lord_blackfang wrote:I am so happy that Alessio isn't writing 40k 6th edition.

Same here!

And I still don't see the point of speeding things up so much that the game becomes some sort of bizarre abstraction. Well, even more than Wargaming is already.

This pretty much made AT-43 stillborn for me.

What's the rush?

I'm OK with setting aside some time to have some fun!

I dont see model removal as a problem for the regular nerve tests. Just use the fallowing "home made rule":

When a unit suffer wounds, instead of placing wound counters, remove models from it, we know the starting number of models, so we know how much wounds it have. Sart removing "regular guys", removing Special weapons and BFGs after it (controling player choose), the last model removed is the Leader. If all models are removed the unit is routed. We consider that you dont loose special weapons or BFGs, as the remaining soldiers just keep using them.

Well, if you have a unit with 10 guys, and it is working at 9 wounds, them that leader is epic resisting in the most Rambo way, one bfg in each hand and ccw ready for rumble. Normally the units will not survive with 50% of their initial strengh... So its cool (and generate some heroic situations).

And really, i loved the ideia of charge! or shoot!, that make assault an option (not a rule). And i really dont understand the "true LoS" hate...

I'm all for bigger battles. At clubs I've played at 40k games are usually 1000pts due to time constrictions. Now take into account the many units in 40k that are points heavy and then figure in that if those units are obliterated early on in a game, you are going to struggle. Now from what I've read Warpath is encouraging faster play, surely that is a good thing? To me that means bigger battles in the same amount of time and if you lose a unit it's not the end of the world?

Looking at the lists, I'm not seeing much that means I can't play at smaller scales. The rules have a large degree of abstraction, but I'm not seeing it as massively different to 40K in that regard.

The game is differnt, alright.

It isn't starting out like a corperate D bag mentality, and it looks like some things will be changing as the time goes on. BETA means not written in stone yet.


If you don't like something, send them a line and let them know.- Enough of the same dislike, and it will change.

I stand by my statements, regardless of some asshat wanting to be clever in response.

GW not listening to the internet is only part if thier problem. They also did that by being greedy and irrelevent.

I think they have a great start. Need a little work on a rough work, but other thenthat- the game looks interesting, different, and has more substance then I've seen in awhile.

I like the dwarfs, the mechanics are going to take a little work, but other then that- good start to a great game.

I agree with Grot and urge people to let mantic know if you see any problems. Mantic have shown an interest in their market and are letting us influence the end product. We make the most of this oppurtunity and give mantic the info they need to make the best game they can.

I'd prefer to remove the models but the rules are not bad apart from that, I'll give them a try.

In a game with a high model count and no movement trays, removing models is a good way to keep the time involved down without sacrificing realism.

The Warpath system seems slightly more geared towards a smaller scale of miniature.

Marauder Beta Army List
Forgefathers Beta Army List
Warpath Beta Rules

It's good to see that some feedback has been taken into account with these rules. It still has issues for me. I have no problem not removing models as anything I spend time painting will stay on the board longer - I understand why people don't like it or don't like the sound of it and for many of us it would just seem odd, but I don't see it as that big a deal. You could just use leader models and have card counters if you wanted but we all like minis - which are just counters at the end of the day (artistic arguments aside). Remember when GW had card cut outs for 40k and Warhammer? (Well they weren't really cut outs - just blocks with an image on )

I don't think Mantic are purely one-dimensional either - Dwarf Kings Hold was an unexpected release and they're still really young and are putting out a lot of models fairly rapidly. It'll be interesting to see what they produce later and how much emphasis they put into their games.

Here's an excellent initial review of the warpath rules:

http://sigur.tabletopgeeks.com/warpath-first-impressions-of-mantics-upcoming-sci-fi-tabletop-wargame/

Worth reading because it highlights a few things that Warpath does better than 40k. Don't write these rules off right away people, there is some really good stuff in there.

The biggest one to me is, if you have a heavy weapon in a unit of models then it can fire at a different target to the unit.

How awesome is that? In 40k if a unit of space marines with a lascannon is facing a unit of orks and a dreadnought they have to either shoot their lascannon at the orks or shoot their bolters at the dreadnought, they are not allowed to be smart and split their fire, they have to act like idiots with no combat training and not use their weapons efficiently.

In Warpath they would get to shoot their bolters at the orks and their lascannon at the dreadnought. Makes much more sense.

I'm just going to say it right now: I will not play any game that involves large units and does not involve removing models from those units or any mechanic that lets you whittle down the enemy. It's both unimmersive and, as currently implemented, heavily luck-based. I can "damage" a unit more times than it has models and it'll stick around at almost 100% effectiveness until I roll high? Morale is a more important defensive stat than actual armor? Not feeling it. The shooting system is also quite poor-- if you're going to be this abstracted, you might as well go to one roll like in Starship Troopers rather than having both to-hit and to-damage results.

It's a shame, because I'd like to see more viable competitors to 40k out there, but I really think this isn't one as currently implemented. Removing whole units works a lot better in a fantasy setting (even though I'm not 100% okay with it even then), and is IMO a dealbreaker in a sci-fi game.

thesilverback wrote:Looks interesting. Really want to see the actual spruces.

Can't see the miniatures for the trees?


I would agree with the sentiment, though... Concept art is all well and good, but I'm not going to get interested until there are actual miniatures to ogle.

Not really feeling the space orcs, though. The bodies and weapon designs are nice enough, if somewhat familiar... but I'm not liking the heads at all.

scarletsquig wrote:
The biggest one to me is, if you have a heavy weapon in a unit of models then it can fire at a different target to the unit.

How awesome is that?

A negligible bonus compared to the downsides.

Let's add 5" coherency to the list. A horde of Orx that all have to be within 5" of the leader will be giant blob of plastic. Too bad there are no blast templates, eh? PP kinda has the same system, but their coherency is equal to the unit's morale, usually around 8, and with a maximum of 12 models per unit.

This is a beta, yes? So why are people getting so militantly upset about a mutable subject? Things can change. That's why they did a beta....They used to call it "playtesting", and it used to be a lot more exclusive. Now we all get a go first.

If the point of the beta is to gather feedback on what people think of it, why would you be surprised that people are pointing out what they don't like about it?

Insaniak, its not that they are pointing it out. Its the WAY they are doing it. "OMG I will DIE of DEATH before I ever play a sci-fi mass battle-system that doesn't support figure removal." Drama-Llama rampaging across the street much? "There's no way this could ever work, the coherency rules are EVIL and make my children CRY BLOOD."

While I don't recall anyone being anywhere near that hyperbolic about it, again, if the point is to influence the game's ongoing design, people pointing out that they actively dislike certain mechanics is going to be more likely to garner a change than people saying 'Meh, it's not the greatest idea, but whatever...'

Just saying. There are constructive ways to give feedback, and there is panicky rhetoric and toy-throwing...

I'm not entirely sure that we're actually reading the same thread... because I'm not seeing anything like that in this one.

People dislike certain game mechanics. In some cases, the existence of those game mechanics in the rules may well be enough to stop people from wanting to play the game.

Pointing that out isn't 'toy throwing'... it's pointing out that you won't play a game that has certain rules you don't like.

I think you're reading emotion into posts that just isn't there.

Whilst I dont think it's the next 40k I can see this "potentially" taking some market share.

The fact that you can buy a complete army from £70 and it includes a carry case is quite frankly amazing - and if we can buy the sci-fi armies for similar money it might just be worth a whirl.

I like the way they are beta testing, and the rules are free lol. I am going to be keeping my eye on this one. i wanna see the models though.

Anyone got a link to the models all painted up?

Still waiting for the models before I'll now if it's any good for me or not. Rules are rules, I learn em if I like the models. In the end, all that really matters is how cool the army men look... and I really hope they do a better job than their mostly-blah fantasy range.

Let's not, and just say we did. Keep it civil. - insaniak

Lovepug13 wrote:Anyone got a link to the models all painted up?

Nobody has a link to any models at all yet. All they've shown so far is concept art.

ah....thanks.

Will keep my eyes peeled for them

Just a couple of thoughts:

Is there any reason why one could not remove models if they so wished and both players agreed?

Not had a good look at the rules yet, but would there not be a possible issue with LoS and the amount of models on the table?
A depleted unit may be easier to hide in terrain

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Insaniak, its not that they are pointing it out. Its the WAY they are doing it. "OMG I will DIE of DEATH before I ever play a sci-fi mass battle-system that doesn't support figure removal." Drama-Llama rampaging across the street much? "There's no way this could ever work, the coherency rules are EVIL and make my children CRY BLOOD."

I will literally not play a sci-fi system at this scale that does not have casualty removal or some other means of reducing the performance of a unit as it suffers damage (and no, the -1 to hit penalty doesn't count). I'm not trying to be hyperbolic here-- I would be happy to play this system if each damage point removed a model and the unit's stats were reduced accordingly-- indeed, I think it would be quite fun as a quick and dirty version of 40k, though (just like 40k) it's not without its faults. However, the casualty removal (or lack thereof) is a dealbreaker for me, and I think that's important feedback for Mantic.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Just a couple of thoughts:

Is there any reason why one could not remove models if they so wished and both players agreed?

Not really, in fact you can already do it with KoW if you really want to, without any modification to the core rules needed.

Not had a good look at the rules yet, but would there not be a possible issue with LoS and the amount of models on the table?
A depleted unit may be easier to hide in terrain

Yeah, that would be an issue, but you could always houserule around it.

That said, I really don't think it's as much of a big deal as everyone is making out. I personally had exactly the same reaction a year ago when KoW was released... I thought that removing models would be better. Now I don't mind damage markers at all, it really is just a case of getting used to them and having counters on the table.

It's just a mental hurdle that takes a little bit of getting used to but it's not a new concept or anything, in fact Epic Armageddon uses a similar system of adding blast markers to units and that game is fantastic to play. As long as you can accept the idea that things need to be abstracted to speed up the game and reduce complexity, then it's fine. 40k is the polar opposite of this approach, with tons of complex special rules everywhere, so I can definitely see why 40k fans will not take to warpath very easily. I think warmachine players might find it easy to pick up though, since that game uses a lot of abstraction for the sake of quality gameplay.

Worth mentioning that mantic always includes corpses on their sprues for you to use as damage markers, which is pretty neat... you can litter the battlefield with the corpses of your enemies instead of boring old counters.

I quite enjoy 40k, but I do have to say it's nice to see a ruleset that can be incorporated in what is essentially a booklet. The rules, in their current state, fit on 8 double sided pages. The 40k rules fit on what, hundreds? Add 1 double sided page for the army list of your choice - 8 double sided pages for all 8 potential armies. There is something to be said for the simplicity of the ruleset.

Concept for the trike looks like the just retrofitted a drarf... but still looks AWESOME!!

Haven't given the rules a good read yet but the non-removal of models makes me raise my eyebrows.


I think there is a certain psychological reward to seeing your enemy remove models from the table---it gives you a sense of accomplishment for a good decision.

On the flip side, I also enjoy having the fear of losing my model from the table---knowing if I make a mistake I might have to remove a a nicely painted figure from the table.


I think I would miss both the reward and feeling of risk if the only visual cue I received from an action was a counter.

This might be old news but I noticed this bit about the Space Dwarf allies

AllIEs: Corporation, Rebs, Marauders,
Asterians.

I guess we know what the Chaos, Eldar and IG counterparts will be called.

And for the Marauders/Space Orks:

ALLIes: Corporation, Rebs, Forgefathers, the
eigth race, Asterians.

I assume that's 'eighth race'. The marine equivlents?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:This might be old news but I noticed this bit about the Space Dwarf allies

AllIEs: Corporation, Rebs, Marauders,
Asterians.

I guess we know what the Chaos, Eldar and IG counterparts will be called.

And for the Marauders/Space Orks:

ALLIes: Corporation, Rebs, Forgefathers, the
eigth race, Asterians.

I assume that's 'eighth race'. The marine equivlents?

marauders seem to be orks (orx?) actually.

Marauders are orks, Asterains are Eldar.

Corporation and rebs are 2 different human factions, open to speculation.

Odds are corporation will be power armour, rebs will be more IG in style.

Even if you can't stand the rules, there will be some very nice and cheap figures coming out over the course of the next year.

Im very curious how Mantic is using this information. Is there a place to give feedback directly to them?

^Yes, on the beasts of war feedback forum.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/warpath-testing-group/forum/

I'm not a fan of the BoW forums (signal-to-noise ratio is horribly low), but that's the only place they'll be looking.

scarletsquig wrote:
Odds are corporation will be power armour, rebs will be more IG in style.

Sounds like a reasonable assumption, Corporation sounds like a big bad evil faction with shiny high tech equipment and "no individual" soldiers vs the ill equipped, ragged, yet tenacious, romanticized, and crafty rebs

Thats not to say though that the rebs cant easily be space terrorists and the corps arent utopian peace keeping forces

scarletsquig wrote:^Yes, on the beasts of war feedback forum.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/warpath-testing-group/forum/

I'm not a fan of the BoW forums (signal-to-noise ratio is horribly low), but that's the only place they'll be looking.

I hope people are making good use of this, and I hope Mantic uses the info well.

http://www.manticgames.com/Forum.html?Topic=904&Page=1

Also this is the mantic forums.

So if you have something constructive to say say it there. And help make it an awesome game.

Remember people, everything, including the race names, are mutable.

Men I still can't believe they went with a system that has one play doing all the rolling on his turn and his opponent is basically doing nothing.

Theduke07 wrote:Men I still can't believe they went with a system that has one play doing all the rolling on his turn and his opponent is basically doing nothing.

IT makes sense in the context of a timed game. Your opponent should be planning while you are rolling all the dice.

Fetterkey wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Insaniak, its not that they are pointing it out. Its the WAY they are doing it. "OMG I will DIE of DEATH before I ever play a sci-fi mass battle-system that doesn't support figure removal." Drama-Llama rampaging across the street much? "There's no way this could ever work, the coherency rules are EVIL and make my children CRY BLOOD."

I will literally not play a sci-fi system at this scale that does not have casualty removal or some other means of reducing the performance of a unit as it suffers damage (and no, the -1 to hit penalty doesn't count). I'm not trying to be hyperbolic here-- I would be happy to play this system if each damage point removed a model and the unit's stats were reduced accordingly-- indeed, I think it would be quite fun as a quick and dirty version of 40k, though (just like 40k) it's not without its faults. However, the casualty removal (or lack thereof) is a dealbreaker for me, and I think that's important feedback for Mantic.

So, have you made you feelings known over at BoW? or are you just repeating it here (again and again)?

For all my negative thoughts about Mantic and their "new" game, I have to give them some credit, they have been very open about the the games development and consumer involvement.....I think this is somthing we should all remember. There are rumours of a WH40K 6th Edition, just rumours.....we won't see the final product until those greedy blighters attempt to reach into our pockets and rape us for it..... I think when we use such emotive terms as above, just think of how lucky we are to be able to make that kind of decision so early in a games development....and lets also not forget, if we follow the right channels we can maybe change someting.

I have been a member of "Backstage" at BoW since it was created, and I have made my feelings about the rules known, as well as the direction the game seems to be taking. It might make a difference it might not. I have resigned myself to the fact, that no matter what I will give this game a chance.

For all those who have already decided they won't give this a go (lets remember its at a beta-test stage and before any models or background is released) can I suggest two things?

1: Get off your high horse already! The rules are free, why don't you grab some models to proxy and try the game first? If you try it and then don't like it that's fair enough, but a lot of what's being said reminds me of trying to get my 3-year-old to eat something new... "I don't like that, Daddy", "but you've not even tasted it, son"

2: Try playing KoW - just as early 40k borrowed heavily from early WFB and WFRP, its no surprise to find Warpath doing the same with KoW. Once you play KoW you understand the design philosophy - its supposed to be fast, clear, have zero rules arguments and be played in a time-limited environment. The philosophy will be same for Warpath. I can see it appealing to tournament players perhaps more than the 'casual' 40k crowd because it is in many ways what they have been looking for for years.

To sum up - don't knock it 'til you've tried it

Delephont wrote:So, have you made you feelings known over at BoW? or are you just repeating it here (again and again)?

I actually did one better and emailed Mantic directly-- not a big fan of Beasts of War.