Between this and Kings of War, Mantic can prove to be a stiff competition for GW. Of course this is banking on all of us gamers supporting their systems. I have been hinting to my local game shop to get some mantic. I guess will go ahead and buy some. I will probably have to proxy them as a warhammer army until I get someone else to play Mantic's systems.
One of the things that intrigued me the most, and this is not limited to the Sci-Fi range, but is something they want to institute with their fantasy range as well, is that they are floating the idea of tournament play using a chess clock. As they discuss this in the video, this is only possible with a very tight set of rules.
I remain skeptical of the idea of them being "stiff competition" to GW.
Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
But if the models are to the quality of their Elves--I will pass.
They only have what.. one year existence? Just look at what they have accomplished so far, if thats not a very respectable starting up I dont know what is.
Kanluwen wrote:Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
Kanluwen wrote:Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
Infinity?
Infinity is small scale games. Nowhere near 40k, which is seemingly what many people want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By that I mean: 40k's scale and the big size of armies.
Kanluwen wrote:I remain skeptical of the idea of them being "stiff competition" to GW.
Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
But if the models are to the quality of their Elves--I will pass.
The elves were their first attempt, they learned from them, undeads, dwarfts, orcs, this are nothing like the elves, not in quality or design. They also bank heavyly on being a compatible range for other games. GW main asset, specially so in 40k is that there is no other full size army battle game in the 28mm range, that includes full sized armies and vehicles. Mantic is about to blow GWs safety net out of the watter.
Kanluwen wrote:Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
Infinity?
Infinity is small scale games. Nowhere near 40k, which is seemingly what many people want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By that I mean: 40k's scale and the big size of armies.
Heh, given that Mantic's motto is "Building Big Armies", I think it's safe to say they are going large scale on this.
H.B.M.C. wrote:*refrains from making 'your precious GW' comment*
You need new material. You're about as played out as Lewis Black.
At least he had shock value at one point.
But really. I can't get hardly anyone interested in Infinity around here.
Why? I'm quoting here: The size of the "armies" is too small for many people.
They don't want another little skirmish game that is being shown off, where a single box is pretty much a force.
I've had better luck introducing games like Heavy Gear Blitz, wherein folks can have a bigger cadre of models to work from.
The bases moulded into the model idea is not one I like, but everything else sounds fine. Now we just need some pictures!
It depends on how the bases and model are moulded. It can't be any worse than Dust: Tactics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buzzsaw wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Laughing Man wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
Infinity?
Infinity is small scale games. Nowhere near 40k, which is seemingly what many people want.
By that I mean: 40k's scale and the big size of armies.
Heh, given that Mantic's motto is "Building Big Armies", I think it's safe to say they are going large scale on this.
Oh, I'm not worried about Mantic going small scale. I was simply replying to Laughing Man's point.
Warpath???
Warpath is one of the biggest US-distributors of Mantic and other miniature ranges:
http://www.warpathgames.com/wholesale/warpath.php Guess I can preorder the Warpath game from Warpath Games soon
Kanluwen wrote:Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
Infinity?
Infinity is small scale games. Nowhere near 40k, which is seemingly what many people want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By that I mean: 40k's scale and the big size of armies.
Kroothawk wrote:Warpath???
Warpath is one of the biggest US-distributors of Mantic and other miniature ranges:
http://www.warpathgames.com/wholesale/warpath.php Guess I can preorder the Warpath game from Warpath Games soon
Kanluwen wrote:You need new material. You're about as played out as Lewis Black.
At least he had shock value at one point.
"Pot to kettle! Come in kettle! You're not reflecting any light! Over!"
Someone mentions that this might be competition against 40K, and the first person to say "Not it won't!" is you. Yeah. And you say my material's old...
Kroothawk wrote:Warpath???
Warpath is one of the biggest US-distributors of Mantic and other miniature ranges:
http://www.warpathgames.com/wholesale/warpath.php Guess I can preorder the Warpath game from Warpath Games soon
We can hope to see the Xzibit photos any moment now... Bonus points if they include Warpath.
Kroothawk wrote:Warpath???
Warpath is one of the biggest US-distributors of Mantic and other miniature ranges:
http://www.warpathgames.com/wholesale/warpath.php Guess I can preorder the Warpath game from Warpath Games soon
Hah. Now that would be good.
That's not good.
It's more like Brits trying to sell a softdrink called McDonald to US fastfood chains.
1. A humvee.
2. The love-child of a half-track and one of the lions from Voltron.
3. A walker that looks like a Snow Fox from BattleTech, and a two-legged walker that is really chubby.
4. A Space Dwarf tricycle.
5. A Space Dwarf halftrack that looks too small even for the people riding it. A Chibi-Track, if you will.
I assume the models will be better (the general Mantic stuff is very nice after all).
Kanluwen wrote:You need new material. You're about as played out as Lewis Black.
At least he had shock value at one point.
"Pot to kettle! Come in kettle! You're not reflecting any light! Over!"
Someone mentions that this might be competition against 40K, and the first person to say "Not it won't!" is you. Yeah. And you say my material's old...
The statement was that they will be "stiff competition to GW". Not 40k singly.
"Stiff competition" implies that they're going to bend GW over and stomp them. Mantic is doing well, but they're not doing that well yet.
I have to wonder exactly how many people are playing Mantic's "competition" to WHFB, Kings of War. That would be a good way to get a measure of how well this can do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Anyway, I look at the pictures and I see:
1. A humvee.
2. The love-child of a half-track and one of the lions from Voltron.
3. A walker that looks like a Snow Fox from BattleTech, and a two-legged walker that is really chubby.
4. A Space Dwarf tricycle.
5. A Space Dwarf halftrack that looks too small even for the people riding it. A Chibi-Track, if you will.
The humvee and the Snow Fox-esque walker are fantastic. The 'Space Dwarf' stuff is kind of eh.
I assume the models will be better (the general Mantic stuff is very nice after all).
That is by far my single hope. No more elf proportions.
Interesting news. I hope mantic don’t drop the ball on this one. I’ve done some initial reading and they have some good ideas. Hopefully their Chaos Dwarves will have a Sci Fi incarnation. Hopefully I’ll be able to look at the leaked pictures when I am able to get onto a non work blocked PC.
I hated the elves until I saw them in person. Then they all made sense and I got the appeal. They certainly don't photograph well though. I totally get why people dislike them based on the pictures. And anyone who doesn't like slight/small miniatures. They definitely are thin and elfin.
And the elves, while people keep bringing them up again and again, are Mantic's first offering and they've improved since then. The undead range has been awesome and the orcs are definitely cool. The orc flagger/standard bearer is a pretty amazing sculpt.
I'm looking forward to Warpath. And more importantly, to reasonable 28mm sci-fi troops for a good price.
I hope mantic doesnt go overload with metal conversion bitz if they are indeed making "Kings of War IN SPAAAAACE". I would prefer to see a lot of original sets.
kenshin620 wrote:I hope mantic doesnt go overload with metal conversion bitz if they are indeed making "Kings of War IN SPAAAAACE". I would prefer to see a lot of original sets.
Agreed. If anything needs to be in metal, it should just be characters.
Kroothawk wrote:Warpath???
Warpath is one of the biggest US-distributors of Mantic and other miniature ranges:
http://www.warpathgames.com/wholesale/warpath.php Guess I can preorder the Warpath game from Warpath Games soon
We can hope to see the Xzibit photos any moment now... Bonus points if they include Warpath.
Necros wrote:So, a bunch of sketches? where's the models? or did I miss em somehow?
It's all still under wraps: if they are actually going to make an October release, I'm sure they are a lot farther along then just those sketches, but it sounds like they are still holding things close to the chest.
They confirmed that the sketches really were a legitimate leak, they didn't mean to send them along to BoW, but they are going to roll with it...
A wise choice, I would say, given the excitement the leak created.
Imagine that, rumors and speculation creating buzz for a product...
There's going to be a Warpath Week on Beasts of War so then we're going to get to see a helluva lot more. People who sign up for BoW's Backstage thing will have access to the rules about 2-3 weeks before they're released for Beta testing.
@Kan - KoW is still in Beta, they explained their 3 year model for polishing up the rules and this has only been year 1. I'm sure when the final book comes out with the full lists that there will be many who will play. True, there aren't a bunch of players now, but soon will be.
I'll be watching. I almost bought the Dwarf army because it was a steal, but I don't like dwarfs, but I like theirs better than others. I'm an dark elf guy, and while I liked how they tried to make their elves look different, they were not dark elves and I'll be honest they didn't pull it off all that well.
The undead that mantic do are great! Everything else just falls a but short, but just a bit. I also was not terribly impressed with the rules for kings of war. I participated in the beta testing and look forward to seeing the sci fi rules.
I do have high hopes though for a sci fi game. I've actually been waiting for someone to restart warzone properly, but I think mantic might really do a good job.
This stuff looks cool, especially the humvee! Maybe GW will stop increasing their prices and putting in some quality control to stop the oncoming competition. I just went on the mantic website and a set of elves cost only 7 dollars! 7! cant wait.
If they do:
Space Robots (With big gun floating space robots, big bug floating space robots, long spined floating space robots, space robot bugs, spce robots with claws and covered in skin)
Space Army (With Lazor guns!!!, Heavy weapons, command groups)
Space Orcs (With guns, with close combat weapons, with big guns)
They will sell like hotcakes and GW gets a nice kick in the crotch.
Space dwarfs and space Humvees is not where they will make bucketloads of cash, models that are significantly cheaper than GW and can be used to directly replace GW is where they will make the vast majority of their sale. It worked for their fantasy range, do it for 40K/sci fi.
I couldn't get on to BoW last night (I was trying from 8.30 to 10.30 before giving up) and now I'm back at work I can't get on to BoW or justin.tv...
bearing these facts in mind, please don't moan when I ask the following questions
Did they announce any new KoW stuff, and if so, what?
Are KoW tournaments definately happening or is this just something they'd like to see?
Were any details/hints/cryptic clues given for anything about Warpath or 'Its a sci-fi game with 8 factions coming October' all they said?
I am really stoked for Mantic. I think they're on the right track with their ideas, and they're producing minis with value in mind. GW would be wise to take notice.
SilverMK2 wrote:I just hope that the aesthetic is pleasing. I want more "realistic" future warfare, not stuff that looks like the old RT era stuff.
I want my armies to look mean, not comical. Which is one of the reasons I am really hoping that Space Dwarves do not ever come to be...
Something completely new would be great, but if your going to have fantasy in space (which is the path that I suspect Mantic will follow GW down) it may as well be like the old RT stuff where at least the GRIMDARK was not quite as grim.
One thing I really admire about Mantic, is their courage and acumen reflected in the fact that they're unafraid to show up on a show like Beasts of War, and talk about their product at length and tell people about *gasp* what's in the pipeline.
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Did they announce any new KoW stuff, and if so, what?
They're releasing a revised ruleset and a bunch of "fat" army lists. They also confirmed the Goblins and Dark Elves ("Twilight Kin", IIRC) and gave some strong hints about doing Humans.
Are KoW tournaments definately happening or is this just something they'd like to see?
It's definitely happening. It's at the stage where they're talking about what file format the "How to run a tournament" pack will be released in (Word, so that TOs can easily edit it for their own use).
Were any details/hints/cryptic clues given for anything about Warpath or 'Its a sci-fi game with 8 factions coming October' all they said?
They did the *cough*Space Orcs*cough*Space Dwarves*cough* thing. No mention of the Space Elves or Space Humans from the Warpath leak.
Mantic is set for massive year, looks like. The fact that they have multi-plans and are sharing them with the fans/gamers is great!
Gonna have to get Dwarf kings hold 1&2 when they restock em. Should have bought the original when I had the chance.
Mantic switched to resin from metal and doubled the product, good move as well.
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Something completely new would be great, but if your going to have fantasy in space (which is the path that I suspect Mantic will follow GW down) it may as well be like the old RT stuff where at least the GRIMDARK was not quite as grim.
Or Dark
Don't get me wrong, I am open to something new - I just want something that looks like it will actually be used in battle, rather than some 60's retro sci-fi ragun toting, jumpsuit clad, flared trouser, space goggle wearing army.
Don't really like the zoid with tracks, but I'm still interested.
Kanluwen wrote:Why? I'm quoting here: The size of the "armies" is too small for many people.
They don't want another little skirmish game that is being shown off, where a single box is pretty much a force.
"I can not, and will not, spend less than $600 on any game! Never!"
All jokes aside, I'm not sure why people hate the idea of skirmish games so much. I like big games with tanks and everything but I love the idea of being able to play a game with just one box.
LunaHound wrote:If that humvee is for space dwarfs, i want to slap Mantic -_-
Both their range seem to be lacking normal human faction, i'll be dissappointed if they push dwarf again, into sci fi....
Any particular reason, Luna? People seem to accept most other Fantasy archetypes in Spaaace, yet balk at Dwarves in Spaaaaace?
Ahh because so far we dont have any generic human faction by Mantic, Elves are the closest i guess , which is still abit off ( so no Empire , Britonian , IG type of humans )
before we get a 2nd dwarf army ( even if its in space ) , i rather we get a human of some sort first!
We don't really need Empire or Bretonnia with the work the Perry twins have done on their 15th century War of the Roses and Mercenaries kits. I agree that we should get some humans, they just shouldn't be anything made redundant by existing plastic kits.
lasgunpacker wrote:Mantic scifi should be exciting... but I keep thinking about the scrawny elves.
And this is hardly the first "challenge" to 40k. Remember Void? Remember VOR? Remember Warzone?
All "challenges" that did not make it.
I do. GW (and it's attached fanbase) was not in the position it was in right now, with a massive easy way to communicate globally and being pissed off at them in masses.
Thing is, at one point in GW's history, Warzone WAS a genuine concern. During the Pokemon craze of the late 90's GW was is serious danger, with weekly targets and the company being somewhat more or less douchy than it is now.
Void IMO WAS going to be a legit concern for GW if one of their higher ups within the company wasn't embezzling money.... Urban Mammoth (or I-kore as they were known then) were lucky to survive.
VOR, like Warzone came out at the wrong time. Not enough UK precense. I heard it had a LOT bigger following in the US. Again, if the Internet was like it was then today it would be a different story.
Don't write Mantic off just yet, they're run by a lot of the old GW alumni and more and more disaffected gamers (and staff) will be flocking to their banner with each passing month.
Good call on that, Alex - I'm seriously looking at getting some of those Perry kits and just adapting the KoW ruleset for some historical games.
What I'd like to see is Mantic doing humans with a totally different vibe to the typical late Mediaeval/early Renaissance feel of most fantasy armies (the primary reason for which seems to be to so they can throw in plate armour and guns).
Maybe early mediaeval (no later than 13th century) or possibly even dark age or classical? Leave the guns and plate to the Dwarfs for a change... Hell, I'd be happy if they just used clean and shiny new versions of the undead armour/weapons - it would make a logical tie-in between the two forces for a change!
P.S. thanks for the info from BoW - looking forward to watching the whole thing when I get chance.
@Grimtuff - am I the only one who'd love Mantic to persuade Andy Chambers to come and work for them?
If mantic hopefully keep their tie in with hasslefree that have been selling their figures too to design in tandem with I can see mantics futuristic product lines doing well.
I cannot see hasslefree's grymm being cast in hard plastic however awesome that would be. Admitedly I do think mantics dwarves with the right paint job still would make convincing squats and I have seen them done on my own site sIte space dwarves online.
But a big thumbs up to mantic for trying. If you look mantic are covering many of the generic fantasy lines at the momment because of who else does humans? The perry twins and warlord games both do some great models. 90% of the time their trade stands are next to each other come shows and events at a reasonable price. At the end of the day isn't that mantics own ethos?
If mantic can pull this off and pull it off well then GW may have to think about some price reductions or flounder in the face of competition that feels no need to charge for rules too.
Andrew1975 wrote:Those sketches do not look good. DO NOT WANT. Lets pray that they come up with something better. I have faith that they will.
It is too early to say that tbh Andrew. The design process is more drawn out (pun intended) than coming up with a polished drawing. These really are concept drawings rather than more fully developed degins that people call concepts.
What was leaked look to me like someone noting basic ideas to develop further and at a very preliminary stage.
It isn't GW's pond. They are just the big grumpy carp that bullies the other fish.
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Good call on that, Alex - I'm seriously looking at getting some of those Perry kits and just adapting the KoW ruleset for some historical games.
Neldoreth over at Warseer already has some historical rules in development - if nothing else, they might serve as a useful starting point. Otherwise, there are a few fantasyarmy lists people are working on that might be of interest.
What I'd like to see is Mantic doing humans with a totally different vibe to the typical late Mediaeval/early Renaissance feel of most fantasy armies (the primary reason for which seems to be to so they can throw in plate armour and guns).
Maybe early mediaeval (no later than 13th century) or possibly even dark age or classical? Leave the guns and plate to the Dwarfs for a change... Hell, I'd be happy if they just used clean and shiny new versions of the undead armour/weapons - it would make a logical tie-in between the two forces for a change!
I agree with leaving the handguns to the Dwarfs, but would prefer they get away from Humans being a misplaced historical army altogether. As I said on Warseer:
I wrote:It's not like there's a shortage of concepts Mantic could put into plastic. The humans could have regiments of warmages instead of archers. They could have skirmishing monks with meteor hammers. They could have grenadiers. They could have mixed units of summoners and elementals. They could have infantry in superheavy plate and tower shields. They could have plastic cavalry. They could have female soldiers.
Kanluwen wrote:I remain skeptical of the idea of them being "stiff competition" to GW.
Will they be competition? Yeah. And with them being the first 'real' integrated system for scifi with both models and rules it'll be another point in their corner.
But if the models are to the quality of their Elves--I will pass.
I like the Elves, have over 50 myself.....I like the fact that they look more 'Elfin' than GW's.
The rest of the KoW range is pretty good too, but they are a young company, relatively speaking. Give them time, the Warpath mini's are bound to better quality. And if that's the case I really can't wait for them to be released!
Hell, I'd be happy if they just used clean and shiny new versions of the undead armour/weapons - it would make a logical tie-in between the two forces for a change!
This makes a lot of sense.
Ronnie talking about the release of the, then new, Undead said that the idea was not the raising of the dead from a cemetery.
Instead, the Necromancer raised the dead from a battlefield, so rather than Aunties and grannies being raised, it was an entire army of dead.
Only thing is if the fluff says it is the slain from an ancient battle that gets raised, but a living equivalent would be good imho.
Kanluwen wrote: "Stiff competition" implies that they're going to bend GW over and stomp them. Mantic is doing well, but they're not doing that well yet.
I have to wonder exactly how many people are playing Mantic's "competition" to WHFB, Kings of War. That would be a good way to get a measure of how well this can do.
I agree, I want for nothing more than a company like Mantic to redress the competition within the hobby, especially in terms of Sci Fi!. Infinity is great, but it can not be compared to WH40K in terms of size, and let's face it, people like large armies, tanks, flyers monsters...etc etc.
Mantic need to get three things right before this can deliver a blow to WH40K:
1) The miniatures need to be MUCH better than the Kings of War line.....yes, people will except a slightly lower "quality" of sculpt if they're paying £50 for 110 miniatures in a box, sure...but all Mantic will succeed in doing is creating a kind of "class distinction" between the companies, with Mantic being seen as the "poor mans" GW....not a good plan for the long term.
2) Their fluff and races need to be engaging and compelling. People like WH40K because of it's fluff etc....it Mantic release a game which is a "pale" carbon copy of WH40K, people will probably jump on board, but they won't create enough of a separation that people would be forced to chose Mantic over GW, at best it would be like a cheap companion game....again read: poor mans GW. On the flip side, if it's too "out there" it may be too much of a shock to the system that people are reluctant to jump in.....
3) The game rules need to be tight......no codex creep, balanced armies.....
I think if they do these things correct, WH40K and GW will be in trouble.
I am hoping and praying that they push Space Dwarves. Damn you all for saying otherwise. There are rumoured to be 8 races, i think its is perfectly fair for at least one to be a dwarven race (maybe a chaos dwarf type one too but not too fussed about that). 7 other races for all you boring people out there.
It does make a lot of sense for them to mirror GW in some way to make they money on people using them as proxy, in all fairness I am pretty sure that is all their models are used for from Kings of War.
Has anyone actually played Kings of War, i never see it discussed apart from the model range. Are the Mantic rules any good??
I know Silver.
Am thinking that the Matt Ward comments tend to be the silly ones, whereas sensible people with sensible posts posts about him use the prefered spelling.
As indeed I was just saying the other day to Mat himself at the Annual Pickled Gurkhin Fest in Bruge.
So if Mr Legoburner could filter Matt Ward it would cut out a lot of nonsense about the poor fellow.
lukewild1982 wrote: Are the Mantic rules any good??
Well that's part of the beauty of the enterprise....why not download them (they're free) and see for yourself......all you would have "wasted" is a few minutes of your day....
lukewild1982 wrote: Are the Mantic rules any good??
Well that's part of the beauty of the enterprise....why not download them (they're free) and see for yourself......all you would have "wasted" is a few minutes of your day....
I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.
I guess since I don't buy stuff that often, I expect a higher quality product and I don't mind paying more for getting exactly what I want. I'd rather do that than get what looks like a cheap knock off. So, hopefully Mantic can put together something really good & original with awesome fluff and models.. there's a first time for everything. I'll still be watching and hoping, but not holding my breath.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
1. A humvee.
2. The love-child of a half-track and one of the lions from Voltron.
3. A walker that looks like a Snow Fox from BattleTech, and a two-legged walker that is really chubby.
4. A Space Dwarf tricycle.
5. A Space Dwarf halftrack that looks too small even for the people riding it. A Chibi-Track, if you will.
I assume the models will be better (the general Mantic stuff is very nice after all).
1. Yes please.
2. No, just no, for the love of god, NO!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, if they do cyber-dogs, I won't be buying.
3. Eh, ok.
4. ick.
5. ick again.
Well of course they are initial concepts. I too hope they nix the dog-track thing. Thats just weird no matter WTF you do with it. I think the Squats are a funny to GW in all honesty. I still dont like Squats but its funny none the less
Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.
I guess since I don't buy stuff that often, I expect a higher quality product and I don't mind paying more for getting exactly what I want. I'd rather do that than get what looks like a cheap knock off. So, hopefully Mantic can put together something really good & original with awesome fluff and models.. there's a first time for everything. I'll still be watching and hoping, but not holding my breath.
I'm no GW fan boy, and yet I can see where you're coming from with your assessment of their Fantasy range. Sure, it's a harsh assessment, and I would imagine the Mantic guys would argue that their mission statement was/is to provide the same level of "emjoyment" that you'd get from GW products but at a reduced price....however, I doubt that argument could stretch to their Sci Fi game.
At the same time, if GW wasn't so hell bent on alienating it's customer base, then companies like Mantic either wouldn't exist or there would be nothing for them to cash in on.....so really, no matter how you spin it, what ever happens to GW from here on out was down to GW's own actions.
Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.
I guess since I don't buy stuff that often, I expect a higher quality product and I don't mind paying more for getting exactly what I want. I'd rather do that than get what looks like a cheap knock off. So, hopefully Mantic can put together something really good & original with awesome fluff and models.. there's a first time for everything. I'll still be watching and hoping, but not holding my breath.
Not sure that calling Mantic a cheap knock off does them or yourself any real favours.
It is perfectly okay if you wish to pay more for GW. But doing so in a way that could be seen as condescending towards others is not.
Mantic have seen a gap in the market and are doing a grand job of filling it imho.
As mentioned on Turn 8 last night:
5 Mantic metal Revenant = 20 Mantic plastic resin Revenant Cavalry.
ie they switched to plastic resin and doubled the amount in a box for half the price.
apologies if I misheard that/misunderstood, as I was in shock at the implications.
So GW can shove their Finecast where the sun won't melt them! Personally I don't see that Vampire Counts cav are so much superior, but personal tastes etc.
I applaud Mantic for being brave enough to jump into GW territory. They deinately as Delephont points out decided on a clear direction to allow affordable gaming in the view that games of the size of GW games is getting to stupid heights of expense. I am not sure I agree that the models are not as nice, obviously they are produced with a much tighter budget in mind, also the slight change in style actually makes them look a bit cheaper (not sure how to explain that better but I know what I mean)
The large scale wargame needs more companies to spread out the market share and it will only be better for it, this will promote better prices, better products and more innovative gaming systems. All businesses need healthy competition to really bring out the best in themselves
There's some Bat Reps, though I think they are on pages 2 and 3 now. Good discussions as well in some places.
Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.
I guess since I don't buy stuff that often, I expect a higher quality product and I don't mind paying more for getting exactly what I want. I'd rather do that than get what looks like a cheap knock off. So, hopefully Mantic can put together something really good & original with awesome fluff and models.. there's a first time for everything. I'll still be watching and hoping, but not holding my breath.
*shrugs* Not everything is about prices. I much prefer the KoW rules to WHF because I don't need a small library to play KoW and I get little satisfaction out of unnecessary special rules (Blood Claw Berserk Charge or the War Sphinx's Thundercrush to name one from each system).
TBH the second paragraph does sound a bit fanboyish because GW produce bad rules and bad fluff (don't get me wrong, I like both 40k and WHF and I think they produce good stuff too), but they've had over 25 years. There's also a limit on how much you can "innovate" a fantasy background. (IMO Mantic's Elf & Undead fluff = very stereotypical, Dwarf & Abyssal fluff = not so stereotypical, not up on the Orc stuff yet).
I'll settle for getting involved in something that has a lot of potential IMO
I think some people are missing the point here. Mantic were producing mini's before all the furore about the GW pricing (I think!).
Certainly before GW introduced ANOTHER price hike just a few weeks ago. The Mantic mini's themselves are nice, perfectly acceptable IMO. They are not a 'poor mans GW' at all, in fact they have come along at just the right time. The fact that there is an alternative to WHFB, and it's a viable one, just goes to show that in the pantheon of wargaming GW are not going to have it all thier own way.
And the fact that two of the greatest games designers and rules writers that GW had (Jake Thornton and Alessio Cavatore) are behind the company does not surprise me in the least. Seems like they knew where GW were heading, and jumped ship at the right time. Mantic produce rules and mini's of the sort that GW were producing 5 years ago, back when GW were still a company that didn't treat it's customers like simpletons.....
Haven't played for a while, but like Baragash I thought it refreshing not to have head stuck in rulebooks/people hanging around etc.
The other thing is it is not necessarily either WHFB or KoW.
One is allowed to play both, and have a change of pace.
The Advantage of Mantics is they have realised that to have bigger battles it needs to be affordable. Whereas GW take the opposite view of making games bigger with cheaper points per model as a means of increasing revenue
Didn't mean to sound so harsh, I'm just hoping they can put together something good.. I do like what they're doing, maybe since all fantasy is all pretty much the same all around I haven't seen anything different or compelling enough in their fantasy range. So hopefully their sci fi stuff will be a lot better. I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc... I wouldn't mind seeing a Predator ripoff army though
One of the things I really liked about Warmahordes was they're a great GW alternative, but with their own different theme with the steampunk thing and all.
Right now though I think if I were to get into a new sci fi game I'd be going with Infinity just based on their models so far.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That seems to be the Mantic ethos, as with KoW you can easily use your GW minis.
I assume the same will hold true for Warpath
Well, we do know for sure that the scale will be the same (28mm), as for interchangeability, there will be a point where they can't be too similar in look and feel (for legal reasons), and they shouldn't be too similar.
I think the worst thing that could happen is if Mantic were to specifically ape 40k's styling: that really would make it seem like a knock-off game. I would much rather they attempt to develop their own style (possibly going away from GW by making humanoid figures that don't look like they were sculpted by someone totally unfamiliar with human anatomy).
Necros wrote:I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc...
I admit the "Thundercats vs Spacedwarves" concepts we've seen so far are a bit off-putting. Still, the Humvee has me hoping for a moderately believeable sci-fi army that strays away from the spacefaring-WWI-nazi-communists-in-trenchcoats stereotype.
Not to mention that any competition that manages to remind GW that their turf is in no way a natural monopoly is fine in my books.
Downloaded and read all the Kings of War rules within 2 hours of finding out (be aware this is all while at work and being distracted) they were available. The rules maybe simple but hey thats not such a bad thing. The foundations for a great game are there, its simple and I could walk up to a game and no exactly what I had to do after one quick read through, not the case with GW but they have been at it a little longer (have GW actually ever got the rules right?)
Necros wrote:I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc... I wouldn't mind seeing a Predator ripoff army though
Well for KoW they are apparently going with 8 "staple"/"work with WHF" races and 2 "original" ones, hopefully they will do something similar with Warpath.
I think you are correct regarding style/aesthetics Buzzsaw
Was referring more to the attitude coming from Ronnie that is more relaxed about using other ranges of models. If I wished to have an Orc vs Dwarves KoW game I don't have Mantics figures, but there is diddly squat to stop me having that game. It remains to be seen what the policy will be towards using GW models at KoW tournies for example.
Mantic could of course go with their own completely new games and figures with races no one has invented. But would that be a popular decision? The path they have taken has led to criticism. On the other hand there are a lot of chaps that are asking for the races that they are bringing out.
TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection
If you want Fantasy with a whole new flavour go for Relics by Tor Games. Wholly original and very atmospheric imho. Love the vibe the game has. I am going to buy into it at some point but hope the specificity of characters is not going to hold the game back.
Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.
I think that misrepresents GW's position. I think a lot of what they are doing is borne from the need to expand their market position, not arrogance. Their decision to focus on plastic miniatures/kits represents a huge investment, and requires significant sales - as does their policy of maintaining a string of stores across the world. They are the biggest wargaming miniatures company, but they are still a relatively small operation, and they need growth to survive. Their actions (including tackling alleged IP infringements) suggest that they are struggling to make a success of that business model. The fact that Mantic seems to be providing compeition is obviously a good thing for wargamers though. It's hard to tell how good these new models will be when we only have some preliminary sketches. A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.
Tailgunner wrote:A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.
There are loads of skirmish games out there, what I want to see is a battle game, then it might provide competition for 40k.
The issue I have is that 28mm is too large for large scale battles, but 15mm or less is too small to have much in the way of detailing on the figures (which is one of the things that I love about 28mm), yet is ideal for the kind of scale battles that 40K is trying to push.
Well I don't personally consider 40k a skirmish game, and sure beyond a certain point you need to play an Epic-equivalent game, but I that's a whole other "problem"
EDIT: one of the main problems with 40k is that the movement mechanic doesn't scale up well at all, but if there were equivalent rules with bases like WotR then it works a bit differently.
I'm really hoping to see rules/stats that are squad-based, like in KoW, not model-based like in WHF and 40k
Tailgunner wrote:
I think that misrepresents GW's position. I think a lot of what they are doing is borne from the need to expand their market position, not arrogance. Their decision to focus on plastic miniatures/kits represents a huge investment, and requires significant sales - as does their policy of maintaining a string of stores across the world. They are the biggest wargaming miniatures company, but they are still a relatively small operation, and they need growth to survive. Their actions (including tackling alleged IP infringements) suggest that they are struggling to make a success of that business model. The fact that Mantic seems to be providing compeition is obviously a good thing for wargamers though. It's hard to tell how good these new models will be when we only have some preliminary sketches. A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.
Firstly the stores is a debatable issue. GW could do worse than to get rid and concentrate on production and let someone else worry about distribution of sales.
Relative is a relative term
GW are small compared to Coca-Cola. Maybe the desire to expand is a bad move. It is possible to expand beyond the market capacity.
GW's business policy is a mess as far as I can see. Partly because they (at least to me) give the impression that they consider themselves the be all and end all of gaming.
Of course that may not necessarily be the case, but they seem to make some odd decisions.
Kanluwen wrote:I hate to say it, but GW doesn't have an entire range of 'razorgors', while Mantic does have an entire range of those Elves.
It's sad too, because it's not like Mantic can't do better. The concept art for the Elves was pretty good.
I don't like elves but Mantic's representation of the "elf" template is the right amount of weedy and willowy, just what you would expect from a fantasy race that falls over when there's a strong breeze.
The dwarves are great for rank and file and the orcs are shaping up quite nicely. They keep getting better and better with each release. Who knows, they might be awesome by the time they get to a race/faction that I care to collect.
Kanluwen wrote:I hate to say it, but GW doesn't have an entire range of 'razorgors', while Mantic does have an entire range of those Elves.
It's sad too, because it's not like Mantic can't do better. The concept art for the Elves was pretty good.
I don't like elves but Mantic's representation of the "elf" template is the right amount of weedy and willowy, just what you would expect from a fantasy race that falls over when there's a strong breeze.
Weedy and willowy is not the same as being the same proportions as a Family Guy skit about Kate Moss.
GW proprtions of their flagship Space Marines conform to the Golden Mean
They cost more than their weight in gold which means I can't afford them
Automatically Appended Next Post: Totally agree Chocolate
Much prefer the LoTR fantasy range to WHtbh But then I just don't like heroic scale very much.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I think you are correct regarding style/aesthetics Buzzsaw
Was referring more to the attitude coming from Ronnie that is more relaxed about using other ranges of models.
If I wished to have an Orc vs Dwarves KoW game I don't have Mantics figures, but there is diddly squat to stop me having that game.
It remains to be seen what the policy will be towards using GW models at KoW tournies for example.
Mantic could of course go with their own completely new games and figures with races no one has invented. But would that be a popular decision? The path they have taken has led to criticism. On the other hand there are a lot of chaps that are asking for the races that they are bringing out.
TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection
If you want Fantasy with a whole new flavour go for Relics by Tor Games.
Wholly original and very atmospheric imho. Love the vibe the game has. I am going to buy into it at some point but hope the specificity of characters is not going to hold the game back.
Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.
ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.
I think this is an excellent point: Mantic walks a fine line, between being original (in interpretation) and alienating the core of gamers that want precisely that familiar core.
A big part of them finding success will be moving far enough away from GW's look so that you can pick up an Orc, or a Dwarf or Elf and know in a moment that it's Mantic or GW (or Reaper, so on), but at the same time it fits in with the mental perception that "yes, this is an Elf, an Orc etc." I think that they have achieved this with their Orc and Undead ranges (I'm not as familiar with their dwarf and abyssal dwarf ranges, but they seem like they might be equally impressive), I think that the concept of the elves is very good, I just wish they were a little less thin. More true-scale then wire-frame, as it were. But we have to give them some slack.
Those that are comparing them to GW must recall, Mantic is an 18 month old company, GW is 30 years old. Moreover, many criticisms of Mantic's look are rooted in the notion that their sculpts don't look really look like GW sculpts... which no one really wants them to look like.
It would be hilarious to have mutant screaming zoid tank baby things dragging themselves around filled with dudes.
As for the practical application of such thing. The front legs and the tracks combined could make it maneuverable over harsh terrain. The front provides close combat power and the ability to gain footholds in terrain and gives it an element of fear.
The half track part carry's troops.
But its really weird regardless. Although ORIGINAL
Necros wrote:
One of the things I really liked about Warmahordes was they're a great GW alternative, but with their own different theme with the steampunk thing and all.
I really agree with this. High Fantasy is all well and good, but it has been done to death. Seriously, it is in a dumpster behind an abandoned warehouse with it's briefs jammed halfway down its throat. Any new models in the genre are just working on the margins. While I don't care too much for Warmachine's over the top level of steam punk (my sword has exhaust ports on the blade!) it is a nice change of pace, and Hordes is similarly a nice variation on the normal fantasy look.
What I would really like to see (and if I decided to go model production I would aim for) is a late classical/early dark ages setting. You can get away with so much more diversity there than you can with GW's model of "Bretonians and the Empire are right next door, but don't trade armor ever" mishmash. You can easily have higher technology factions nearby lower tech factions by dint of xenophobia and distances, and even have very divergent weapons and tactics due to local preferences that have not been overcome by superior military doctrine yet. Not to mention the classical mythological beasts that still roam.
I dunno, that would get me excited. Crocodile games sort of went in that direction, but their quality and price isn't where I want it to be. A full line of affordable plastics like Mantic though, and you would really have something!
ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.
I'd rather have the Elven warriors that have proportions that make them not look like anorexic supermodels who can fall through a crack in the floor but trained warriors.
It's kind of the same issue that I have with the people who constantly say that Conan the Barbarian is the same proportions and a perfect match for Arnold. It's stated time and time again in the novels that Conan had the look of a "panther" to him. All sinewy muscle, not bodybuilder bulk.
ChocolateGork wrote:I want a ZOID HALFTRACK MUTANT BABY!
It would be hilarious to have mutant screaming zoid tank baby things dragging themselves around filled with dudes.
As for the practical application of such thing. The front legs and the tracks combined could make it maneuverable over harsh terrain. The front provides close combat power and the ability to gain footholds in terrain and gives it an element of fear.
The half track part carry's troops.
But its really weird regardless. Although ORIGINAL
I'm at work, so I can't see the pic, but from what I've heard about thundercats, zoids, and half-tracks, I can't help but think of this:
I'm interested in the idea of a Thundercats-style army, maybe with air support from the Silverhawks and marine/SEAL teams loaned out from Tigersharks. Pure awesome.
The human factions can be based on the Centurions property. Run with it Mantic, run!!
So its impossible to believe that a very magical race couldn't posses any strength without heavy muscle mass?
Their stature has nothing to do with them being trained warriors or not.
Its quite possible that they just build muscle...You know..cause they aren't just pointy humans.
ChocolateGork wrote:So its impossible to believe that a very magical race couldn't posses any strength without heavy muscle mass?
Their stature has nothing to do with them being trained warriors or not.
It's impossible to believe that a very magical race, which depicted in their own artwork, looks very similar to humans is when expressed in model form looking like a silly skit.
Its quite possible that they just build muscle...You know..cause they aren't just pointy humans.
I don't see why you keep harping on this "pointy humans" bit.
Look at the art for GW's elves when they're out of their armor. They are clearly not "just pointy humans". Look at the art for D&D and the majority of the more 'accepted' elf artwork. They have a human shape, but are not simply "pointy humans". They have longer limbs, they're generally taller, they're generally lithe rather than overtly muscled, etc.
There's nothing wrong with wanting elves looking like that. What the issue is that the Elves Mantic produces are wearing full armor and still have a waistline that anorexic supermodels would kill for.
I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pompoms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.
The thing that Mantic is missing is Legion of the Damned, by William Dietz. When I first saw those pictures from Mantic, that was one of the things I thought of.
Thing I REALLY HATE about this new game is that Alessio Calvatore has ANYTHING to do with gaming, after the bang up job that he did with his reverse Midas Touch on any army he's had anything to do with. Get rid of him, and I'll give them the time of day, otherwise, we're going to see a game along par with Starship Troopers, or Vor. The little game that should have, but was too regulated and hamstrung with B.S. for its own good. Hasn't he done enough damage to 40K? What makes him so special, anyway?
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Nice to see such a wizbang turnout for .... uh. nothing, yet though. Would like to see some, you know... figures and some substance, before we start going up and down the firepole on these guys. Only thing we've seen so far is some basic black dress Fantasy stuff that was pretty much a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy clones. Really nothing to write home about, especially since not sending me my figure.
Necros wrote:I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pompoms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.
Kanners
Of course GW also brilliantly adhere to the long limned svelte beings of the artwork with their bigheaded gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes, dressed in cloaks knicked from the guards in the Wizard of Oz. Awwwweee ho! Awwweeee ho!
Necros wrote:I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pompoms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.
Kanners
Of course GW also brilliantly adhere to the long limned svelte beings of the artwork with their bigheaded gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes, dressed in cloaks knicked from the guards in the Wizard of Oz. Awwwweee ho! Awwweeee ho!
The majority of the "gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes" you're referring to are terrible sculpts though. The High Elf and Dark Elf Warrior kits desperately need to be replaced. Especially when you compare them to say, the Dragon Princes, Corsairs, Phoenix Guard, White Lions, Repeater Bolt Thrower Crew, Island of Blood monopose plastics, etc.
It's not just Mantic's ultraskinny elves I have an issue with. The subpar GW line troops that we have for most of those elves aren't too great.
Yes new High Elves are good, and cannot complain about the quality of the IoB figures. Excellent for a starter set imho.
and on the whole I like the Wood Elves with some exceptions like Treemen.
I just watched the interview with Ronnie, they have some nice new sculpts. I think it helps that the point jobs are also very nice on the new pieces. It will be very interesting to see what they release for their sci-fi range.
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.
As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this
MDizzle wrote:
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.
He's also responsible for a large amount of the attempt to 'homogenize' the 40k codices that resulted in C: Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.
He's also responsible for the WHFB Armies: Skaven that was widely considered one of the most easily open abuse books at the time.
As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this
Nothing's wrong with that. Except it's cherry picking the 'best and most recent' model while ignoring the currently in production Elves and some of the Undead line which is less than stellar.
It's like if I were to post up a RT era Space Marine as the 'quality' of GW models today.
The Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines are not his fault. I heard an Interview with Gav Thorpe and he said that GW wanted to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and the Chaos SM. Then GW changed there minds. So to hate on him for that is a very foolish considering how great 5th ed is.
The minis look fine to me there are a lot of models in the GW range that suck balls so it all balances out in the end. Mantic makes quality minis from what I can tell.
MDizzle wrote:The Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines are not his fault. I heard an Interview with Gav Thorpe and he said that GW wanted to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and the Chaos SM. Then GW changed their minds. So to hate on him for that is a very foolish considering how great 5th ed is.
Yes, and Alessio was the biggest member "wanting to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and Chaos Space Marines".
So, to say they're 'not his fault' is ridiculous.
The minis look fine to me there are a lot of models in the GW range that suck balls so it all balances out in the end. Mantic makes quality minis from what I can tell.
And that's the rub. There's a huge range of GW models. The stinkers are, as of this moment, fairly few and far between.
Mantic has an entire range that is stinkers. Not only that, but it's a 'flagship' range in that Elves are going to be a situation where not much leeway will be given for weirdness.
The Undead look great, the only duff models they've released for that line have been the recent vampire knights. Everything else looks great.
Wish they wouldn't hire Gary Morley to make some of their metals, most of the stuff he's made for mantic has been terrible (Elven cavalry, drakon riders).
Whereas everything by Kev White (Dwarf characters, Elf Palace guard) looks fantastic. I'm not sure who sculpted the awesome new orc characters, but judging by the style it's someone from Europe, the sculpts look very Rackham-like.
Bob Naismith sculpts all the plastics, and while his initial set of elves weren't very good (the sculpts are excellent, but he had a poor set of concept art to work from) I'd say overall he has improved a whole lot over the 2 years that mantic has been around for.
scarletsquig wrote:
Bob Naismith sculpts all the plastics, and while his initial set of elves weren't very good (the sculpts are excellent, but he had a poor set of concept art to work from) I'd say overall he has improved a whole lot over the 2 years that mantic has been around for.
Naismith was also responsible for the naff Starship Troopers plastic MI, Skinnies, and many of the naff Arachnid models.
Honestly, the concept art that we've seen for Mantic's Elves is pretty damn good. I'm not sure why you're saying it's the concept art when Naismith had a not-so-great track record for the time.
Do you seriously want to sit there and say that Dark Angels and Chaos Space marines is... Good?
They were his fault. AND he was the one that brought about the unraveling of the game WITH 5th Edition. "True Line of site" is easily one of the weakest things to write home about and try to spin as something.... worth the discussion. Vehicle combat is still broken, we see the game still losing its steam on every front. Fantasy? Dude, seriously do you really want me to pull fantasy apart? For starters; How about What happened to fantasy? No one plays it anymore.
Those.. uh... Miniatures that you are spouting on about... Do you really stand by that same cookie cutter range of guys? The only thing they bring to the table is cheaper cost. in all, they are the same figures, with a little variation on a theme. Generic in almost the same way as black and white boxed with stenciled letters on them. "Elf" , "Ghoul", In as much as, "What about something to distinguish it from the countless other games that are out there?"
How exactly is that guy you have pictured there any different then-
I know GW made better warriors for their VC line, but the TK line still looks like the crappy old skele design GW has had for the better part of the past 15 years.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is clearly an improvement. Mantic is working in a far, far tighter budget than GW, and their skeletons are already on par or far better than GW's. Give them time to release later sculpts and there will be even better looking minis for less cash.
Grot 6 wrote:Do you seriously want to sit there and say that Dark Angels and Chaos Space marines is... Good?
They were his fault. AND he was the one that brought about the unraveling of the game WITH 5th Edition. "True Line of site" is easily one of the weakest things to write home about and try to spin as something.... worth the discussion. Vehicle combat is still broken, we see the game still losing its steam on every front. Fantasy? Dude, seriously do you really want me to pull fantasy apart? For starters; How about What happened to fantasy? No one plays it anymore.
While that may be true....have you read the rules for BoW? What do you think about them? Doesn't the fact that they are free and require no investment from your side (including the need to buy Mantic miniatures to play them) distinguish them positively from GW's rulesets?
Why not Judge the guy based on his latest "song".......after all, that song is costing you nothing to listen to it...
IIRC Mike McVey was involved with some of the Orcs possibly the command group.
Not sure how helpful tit tatting is between the two companies. They both do good bad and indifferent sculpts. Personally I thought the Mantic Revenant Knights were okay. Not in the same leaugue as Gamezones Mournful Knights http://gamezoneminiatures.de/sidebar/ritter-der-verdammten-i.html but for the price Mantics are good enough for me.
We all have individual needs, aspirations and wallets, before even mentioning taste. It is just good to have the options as far as I am concerned.
I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.
Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?
THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.
Id love a large scale wargame other than 40k. I mean I love the fluff of 40k and narrative games are fun too, but I can't say I love the lack of respect GW shows.
5th ed is also totally geared towards buying vehicles to make them the most profit per point they can. Competition breeds innovation.. monopolies grow stale (and raise prices!). Also whats the purpose of showcasing Mantics horrible elves? Yes they're bad we know that.. their models SINCE them are great or at least on par with GW. I mean come on, might as well start linking some of the awful GW models.. like all HUGE hand skaven models of 5th ed (Either way, price per value is much higher)
Thats like saying "Dont buy new DE because look at the horrible catachans!" .. Everyone has bad models
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection
More people need to think like this. There is no reason not use figures in multiple games. This is especially easy in fantasy where most fantasy armies revolve around fairly standard motifs. Historical players switch rulesets all the time, why don't fantasy players.
With a standard Mantic or GW army, you could play
Warhammer
Kings of War
HoTT
Dark Storme
Warlord
Rally Round the King
Fantasy Rules
Chronopia
Crucible
Mantic's stuff is hit or miss for the most part. I hate their dwarves and their elves, but I love their undead, especially their Ghouls and Zombies, which while lacking in variety per sprue, are great kits for quickly and cheapishy cranking out hordes of plastic undead.
(this post is sponsored by a zombie lover who won 120 zombies from Mantic )
All I can say is: At this point, Mantic's customer appreciation is already better than GW's. They listen to their players, are willing to listen to their players to the extent that they are forging the rules based on real player feedback, and they regularly do largish giveaways and answer questions. GW USED to be like that...used to be. Isn't now.
Grot 6 wrote:I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.
Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?
THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.
Yes, but that assumes that rules and products at GW are produced in a vacuum.....my point being, Alessio (spelling?) may have written the rules, but it would have been down to the GW team of play-testers and editors to give the final product the go ahead.....basically, it would have been a team decision to move forward (and yes, I reserve the same arguments in defence of Mat(t) Ward!)
Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.
To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.
Grot 6 you are think the DA codex and the chaos suck but if you listen to people like Gave Thorpe the co writer of the Chaos book he says GW asked them to scale these books the way the did as an over all arch of how they wanted codices to be balanced. Then GW changed there minds so it make those books look really bad.
Go ahead and Poo Poo True line of sight it's a lot better than infinitely tall forests and crap like that. The fact is people like 5th ed it's a great rule set and the most popular rule set in the world.
At the moment i am too exhausted to write a full fledged explanaition. But let it suffice to say that you are extremly way off regarding what really happend. A designer these days is nearly in the same way at the mercy of the top-phoobas as the normal gamers are.
And Andy, Alessio, etc. tried their best when working for GW and only after they left we really saw how good they were and how much the managment fragged up their work.
MDizzle wrote:
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.
He's also responsible for a large amount of the attempt to 'homogenize' the 40k codices that resulted in C: Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.
He's also responsible for the WHFB Armies: Skaven that was widely considered one of the most easily open abuse books at the time.
As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this
Nothing's wrong with that. Except it's cherry picking the 'best and most recent' model while ignoring the currently in production Elves and some of the Undead line which is less than stellar.
It's like if I were to post up a RT era Space Marine as the 'quality' of GW models today.
Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.
xxvaderxx wrote:Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.
How about the Drakkon riders, or the faces on the vampire cavalry, gore riders or Ax regiment, all of which were released this year or haven't even been released yet?
Grot 6 wrote:I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.
Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?
THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.
Yes, but that assumes that rules and products at GW are produced in a vacuum.....my point being, Alessio (spelling?) may have written the rules, but it would have been down to the GW team of play-testers and editors to give the final product the go ahead.....basically, it would have been a team decision to move forward (and yes, I reserve the same arguments in defence of Mat(t) Ward!)
Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.
To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Kirasu wrote: I mean I love the fluff of 40k and narrative games are fun too, but I can't say I love the lack of respect GW shows.5th ed is also totally geared towards buying vehicles to make them the most profit per point they can. Competition breeds innovation.. monopolies grow stale (and raise prices!). Also whats the purpose of showcasing Mantics horrible elves? Yes they're bad we know that.. their models SINCE them are great or at least on par with GW. I mean come on, might as well start linking some of the awful GW models.. like all HUGE hand skaven models of 5th ed (Either way, price per value is much higher)
Thats like saying "Dont buy new DE because look at the horrible catachans!" .. Everyone has bad models
Very very good points!!!
I mean, judging a company on their first release, when they have since improved?
Does anyone out there hate the entire Marine range of models... based on Captain Cortez? (the fugliest model ever!)
Bring on the competition, I say!!!
GW has, IMHO, shown their overall opinion of their customer base in the last 2 weeks to be pretty damned low.
loki old fart wrote:
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Eh? that's what I said!
Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.
To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.
No you said gw didn't control how 5ed went , and mantic may be keeping more control.
Where as I think gw maintained full control, and mantic are giving him free reign to do as he likes.
Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?
Only one I know of is Warzone, a sci fi game around the same time of 40k. Very RT like models. They even have their own set of plastic sci fi soldiers for a bargain compared to gw but only in monoposed style.
loki old fart wrote:
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Eh? that's what I said!
Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.
To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.
No you said gw didn't control how 5ed went , and mantic may be keeping more control.
Where as I think gw maintained full control, and mantic are giving him free reign to do as he likes.
I see, well I was trying to kill two birds with one stone. I was suggesting (or trying to) that GW is responsible for it's products, not one designer, and if GW doesn't have the resources to ensure that designers output meets their needs, then they are still responsible
Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?
Only one I know of is Warzone, a sci fi game around the same time of 40k. Very RT like models. They even have their own set of plastic sci fi soldiers for a bargain compared to gw but only in monoposed style.
And this is hardly the first "challenge" to 40k. Remember Void? Remember VOR? Remember Warzone?
All "challenges" that did not make it.
I do...
I do also. In fact I owned all of those games and still have a number of Void and Warzone figs.
I don't think KoW and Warpath and their accompanying figures are going to kill WFB and 40k. However, there are a few factos that set them apart and may help them to achieve a bit of longevity over those previously mentioned games/figure lines.
1) They are based around truely affordable figures. The games mentioned above weren't much (if any) cheaper than 40k when it came to the cost per figure. Mantic figures average between a half and a third the cost of Games Workshop with some even cheaper.
2) Mantic has a few year track record of sucess with the particular line of figures that this game is based on. Unlike the previously mentioned games whose figures were very connected to the game itself, Mantic figures sold before KoW and continue to sell in great quantity to people who aren't interested in the games. As long as the figures sell well, Mantic doesn't need anyone to play KoW.
3) Ever since GW went mostly plastic, Mantic is the only company that has been able to suceeding strongly in the plastic Fantasy market. Their are lots of companies making minatures that are cheaper than GW, but for people wanting mass fantasy armies cheaply, Mantic is really the only game in town.
Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?
Warzone has already been shown.
VOID:
VOR the Maelstrom
Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.
Grimtuff wrote:
Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.
I've got some Void and some Urban War/Metropolis (the games that followed Void in the same universe) figures. Though the Void figs are a touch smaller and less ornate, they look good on the tabletop together.
ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.
I'd rather have the Elven warriors that have proportions that make them not look like anorexic supermodels who can fall through a crack in the floor but trained warriors.
It's kind of the same issue that I have with the people who constantly say that Conan the Barbarian is the same proportions and a perfect match for Arnold. It's stated time and time again in the novels that Conan had the look of a "panther" to him. All sinewy muscle, not bodybuilder bulk.
You realize these are aesthetic choices and that our opinions on them really don't matter, people are buying them despite your hate. I for one love the Mantic Elves. Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are both "correct".... But it's getting old we all know you love GW and you will bash any competition that encroaches on their domain. What really gets me though is how you say GWs range is gold and Mantics isn't worth the plastic it's made out of, and please don't make me actually quote you because that is along the lines of what you said, in the words of many GW apologists, "If you don't like it/can't afford it, don't buy it". Why come on here and accuse Mantic who make wonderful miniatures and a great game of making a poor product? Why not go outside? Why not write a poem? Why not channel this frustration into something productive? Alot of us love what Mantic are doing, they are making the hobby we love affordable again, and I for one say hell yes, bring on the models. The most wonderful part is that they will improve, even as your outlook on GW competition becomes more sour.
Maybe that is a little harsh but seriously, we get it, you don't like their elves, some of us do. I like the fact that they are thin to the extreme. In most fantasy that is exactly how they are described: thin to the extreme and graceful. Mantic does tend to take this to the edge but they are models no one is asking you to love them but there is no point to completely bash a product just on an aesthetic choice. I could do the same and say all space marines are because of the ridiculous proportions.
Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.
.
Why should that matter to you?
If you want to pay premium prices for GW's highly original, super quality models, just buy them and be happy.
BlotterOfPapers wrote: You realize these are aesthetic choices and that our opinions on them really don't matter, people are buying them despite your hate. I for one love the Mantic Elves. Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are both "correct".... But it's getting old we all know you love GW and you will bash any competition that encroaches on their domain. What really gets me though is how you say GWs range is gold and Mantics isn't worth the plastic it's made out of, and please don't make me actually quote you because that is along the lines of what you said, in the words of many GW apologists, "If you don't like it/can't afford it, don't buy it". Why come on here and accuse Mantic who make wonderful miniatures and a great game of making a poor product? Why not go outside? Why not write a poem? Why not channel this frustration into something productive? Alot of us love what Mantic are doing, they are making the hobby we love affordable again, and I for one say hell yes, bring on the models. The most wonderful part is that they will improve, even as your outlook on GW competition becomes more sour.
Maybe that is a little harsh but seriously, we get it, you don't like their elves, some of us do. I like the fact that they are thin to the extreme. In most fantasy that is exactly how they are described: thin to the extreme and graceful. Mantic does tend to take this to the edge but they are models no one is asking you to love them but there is no point to completely bash a product just on an aesthetic choice. I could do the same and say all space marines are because of the ridiculous proportions.
(editted for poor grammar)
Well, welcome to the forums.....I agree with your points, unfortunately your target "audience" will not. No matter how misguided we may feel his attitude is, he has a right, like anyone else to repeat that point..again, and again, and again.
Mantic will do well, even without the backing of a Sci Fi game, in the current economic climate, and I'll come out and say this....only IDIOTS would opt to spend more on their hobby for less. If GW wishes to aim it's product at idiots, then more power to both parties.
The drakkon riders are uglier than crap but I thought the rest of the Mantic elves looked okay. I got a free sprue with the elf scouts on it from the Warstore with an order I made a long time ago and they looked pretty good, even if they are "anorexic" that fact personally never bothered me because elves are kinda supposed to be tall and lithe like that (well, "supposed" to...everyone has their own interpretation of elves and GW's happens to be "humans but with pointy ears"). It may look "ugly" or even inhuman but that's kinda the point, elves aren't human, and a healthy elf physique would not necessarily be the same as a human's.
That's just my opinion though, I don't even like all of the Mantic elves myself, though I think comparing them to Gary Morley's Dark Eldar is harsh.
Beasts of War will be acting as a forum for the Alpha playtesting of Warpath (as well as other games by other companies), so that you may playtest the game and give constructive feedback on it (perhaps even the aesthetics? Who knows? ) to the designer's themselves (Alessio et al). They have set up a monthly subcriber section 'Backstage' so that they can afford to move to better servers and act as a hub for the gaming community outside of GW's sphere of silence...
Remember guys that Mantic is only a year old & GW has been around for 36 years & has developed its fluff off the backs of some very talented, now neglected, people - who in turn used a great many historical, mythological, philosophical & other forms of cultural archetype to form the worlds we all know and love. Mantic are primarily a manufacturer of Toy Soldiers, who have a three year plan for Kings of War and probably a similar one for Warpath as well. For me it is nice to be given the opportunity to become involved in a game's design for a change which GW hasn't done since Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic.
In all I'm looking forward to getting involved with Warpath, as well as playing Kings of War. I have nothing against Mantic's models although I fully understand why others don't like them. For me they serve their purpose as detailed tokens to use within a game & with enough painting effort, even the 'worst' mini can look a little better, although I think even Mantic's Elves (which are by far their 'worst' line) look good once assembled and massed together in units of 20+ and the detail given the slight nature of their bodies and lack of general surface area is as good as can be expected. I can only expect their sculpts to get better. They are just a baby compared to GW's level of design and background/artistic aesthetics and obviously don't take themselves as seriously...after all even the nicest GW mini is still just a Toy Soldier - they can be works of art in the hands of the right people but I think it's fair to say most of us fall short of such aspirations
Grimtuff wrote:
Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.
Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?
Only one I know of is Warzone, a sci fi game around the same time of 40k. Very RT like models. They even have their own set of plastic sci fi soldiers for a bargain compared to gw but only in monoposed style.
OMG LOOK AT THE SPACE MARINES!!
Heh.
Don't laugh.
THOSE particular marines your looking at there had an empire almost as large as GW did in the beginning. I also remember, and have a few squads still kicking around that once augmented one of my space marine companies, AND was used as a stand in for a commander, that I still have around somewhere. Armorcast had thier resin tanks, that they sold along side GW's resin cast models, ( Oh yeah WITH the titan included.) that were comparable to the 100.00 shlock that GW sees fit to throw down on a monthly basis, and the sets that were comparable to Space Hulk, and Tyrannid Attack were more varied and had 3x the selection in one box that GW's other out of the box games had at the time. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure those are also the same ones that nailed to coffin for WARZONE. Of course there were other things, but I remember distinctlythat Warzone, and the Fantasy game of the time, Chronopia. As compared to material? Warzone had more. As compared to quality and some.. shall we say "asthetic"? They were clearly lacking, but there were other things from that particular game that made of for the corndog looking tanks, and some of the wackjob sculpts.
My point is getting lost in the shuffle of the dancehall here, I can see. BUT I can agree with Delphont that if you throw more hard earned coin at GW with the current state of affairs and the way that you as a customer are treated, then I won't go so far as to call you a fool, but I'll leave it at your going to get what you pay for. Doesn't leave me here drinking the kill-aid, but I'll sit back and say that compaired to not having ANY CHOICE, and being told to suck it, that people can go out there and there are plenty of alternatives to the great and powerful Games Workshop that are just out there, waiting for you to find them. My point on Mantic is that bottom line up front, I just want something DIFFERENT then a Fantasy or Sci Fi clone. I want something with a little more variety, and , even though I'm not going to be sending Alessio Cavatore any holiday cards, I hope that Mantic isn't just riding the anti-GW sentiment that is pushed to the forefront, and that they honestly do listen to players and continue with a solid performance.
Being a crochety old geezer, and with many scars to prove it, your going to have to do better then bringing on the dancing bear and the stripper pole to change my mind on this new Mantic hype. I don't have to like them, by the way. After his subpar "accomplishments" at GW, I can only hope that he redeems himslef with the new Mantic way of doing business and gives us something other the GW "Big Brother" BS. Thats one guys opinion, by the way.
You don't like it, do something to knock my socks off and change it.
Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.
Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.
Mantic has full ranges of Bad models and GW doesnt? SURE the spacemarine design is great isnt it ? and if you consider it no more than a 80's styled scifi old ugly design then yeah you can pretty much dislike the biggest part of 40k just there.
Mantic is a copycat and should be original? Original is relative but if they have to gain some fat in order to take to the next level so be it.
Im happy they are releasing individual blisters with the painters in mind and also that they will SUPPORT the dungeon crawler with another tome and a upgrade on the rules...
For a new born baby company they surely gave a hell of a kick on GW testicles.
NAVARRO wrote:Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.
Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.
Mantic has full ranges of Bad models and GW doesnt? SURE the spacemarine design is great isnt it ? and if you consider it no more than a 80's styled scifi old ugly design then yeah you can pretty much dislike the biggest part of 40k just there.
Mantic is a copycat and should be original? Original is relative but if they have to gain some fat in order to take to the next level so be it.
Im happy they are releasing individual blisters with the painters in mind and also that they will SUPPORT the dungeon crawler with another tome and a upgrade on the rules...
For a new born baby company they surely gave a hell of a kick on GW testicles.
I agree.
Mantic may seems to be copying what GW has, but its necessary. Doing so, it assures the company to have a safe and steady ( well not steady, AMAZING ) rate of growth.
I believe, when Mantic is popular enough, they'll start diverting away with new unique creations of their own. But so far, they have been doing everything right, and certainly deserves my patronage.
Considering Mantic have been going for 12/18 months to get where they are now is remarkable.
Put that in the context of 2009/2010 and the period when the financial world went belly up.
Starting any venture is risky, but to start at a time of recession and come through like this is pretty impressive.
xxvaderxx wrote: Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.
NAVARRO wrote: Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.
Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.
Thank God somebody said it. I can't believe people are comparing Mantic to GW in terms of sculpts and quality. You cannot make that comparison without taking it into context that Mantic is a fledgling company and GW is a 30 year old juggernaut. If you wan't to compare models then compare Mantic's elfs to this:
THAT'S fair. At one time in history Citidel and GW were small just like Mantic and their sculpts certainly weren't as good as they are today with some of the best designers and 30+ years of experience behind them. But guess what? People still gave that company with ugly ass models a shot and look what GW became. I think the Mantic Elves look just okay, but that was their first race, before they even had a game! Every other race they've done has gotten better and better. To go from those Elves to the new Orcs in just two years is amazing. So I hope people can move beyond this silliness and realize that no game company comes out of the gate with fluff like GW and sculpts like McVey. Unless you're an unapologetic GW fanboy then more wargames are a good thing. Let's let Mantic take us on this ride and see where it goes!
You know, while I have every support for Mantic, and I really want these guys to do well. I don't mean so that they can deal a death blow to GW, I could give a crap for GW, no, I want them to do well so that we, the wargaming community, can enjoy more choice.
Right, so, having explained my stance, I feel I need to comment on this whole "GW is 30 and Mantic is 1" thing.
When GW started off, the whole concept of fantasy and sci fi miniatures was an absolute dream....there were no pioneers. Sure you had your historicals, but looking at those guys, even they weren't brilliant, and certainly not at such small scale.
Fast forward to today, we've got miniatures in 28mm scale that rival 1/4 scale statues, what some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....
So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.
So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.
To draw a comparison. How would you, as a customer, deal with a start up Motor company? Would you walk into this new motor companies showroom and expect them to have designed a car using modern techniques, built in modern manufacturing facilities and conforming to the latest safety regulations, or would you walk in and expect that car company to have produced something equivalent to the original Ford Model-T?
Mantic have taken on a massive task, and I commend them for it, and will do my bit to support their efforts (well, until they dump on me, like someone else has ) but at the same time, if they are going to play in this field, they need to know that things have moved on since the days when GW started. Designs can now be done on computer, 3D printing, etc etc etc....theres no excuse to produce something that is behind the times....well, they can, but they can't expect to be in a top spot if they do.
If it's a question of asthetics and style, that's something else....but conformity to proportion, ability to caprture detail in design, understanding of dynamics and movement...all of these things are a basic requirement of a successful company operating in this industry today.
And Delephont takes the cake with the best explanation as to why I bring up the Elves.
Mantic, if they're going to play "with the Big Boys" of GW and Privateer Press need to step up their game. Otherwise, they'll just be another option that is kind of looked at as a "eh" option.
They're a young company "just starting out". That's fine, but it's really a copout to justify sculpts that if they were put out by GW or Privateer Press(who is also a relatively young comapny) we'd be howling for blood about.
Look at Corvus Belli's "Infinity" line. There is yet to be any real "dud" of the same level as the Mantic Elves/Dwarfs. That's the kind of quality people are looking for in their models, not the quality of GW in the 90s.
and Mantic Elves are fine, there are absolutely nothing wrong with the sculpt.
If kan have a problem with them been skinny, then thats just personal preference.
I think anyone posting about how they think the elves look should also include a disclaimer as to whether or not they have seen them in person and whether or not they have seen them in person, painted.
The pictures on Mantic's site are probably not helping.
As to whether or not it's alright to give them a pass because they are new, I say yeah. People do this in all industries all the time. In electronics if some company comes out with a new gadget for the first time, you'll often see reviewers say things like "but since this was HP's first foray into the Netbook market, it's understandable that they got a few things wrong." or "Hyndai's initial offerings for the North American market seem cheap and don't exude a feeling of quality. Hopefully they'll improve with future year's models."
That aside, the elves are actually better than what most people who have never seen them in person think they are. Am I going out and building an army of them? Nope. But enough people did for Mantic to have the cash and encouragement to make their whole line. The elves were pretty much the test bed for their product approach and it worked for Mantic. If someone pointed a gun at me and said "make an elf army-- or else!" I'd choose Mantic over GW's High Elf and Dark Elf warrior boxes. Those are chunky poo.
I really love Mantic's Undead and Orcs, and I'm undecided about their Dwarfs and Elves. I do however think they are all good quality - there's nothing wrong with the Elf or Dwarf sculpts, it's just a matter of aesthetic taste. I see why they went for a different look for their elves, I've always been kind of frustrated by the GW Elves and Eldar having human physiques, contrary to the fluff. Also, it seems like they are sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't, in some eyes - they get criticised when they try a different aesthetic but also criticsed for not being original enough.
The only things I still like about GW are the 40k fluff and their plastic minis (especially Dark Eldar). I'm eager to see if Mantic can trump GW in these areas too. They already have some fantastic lookign minis and theonly reason I haven't bought off them yet is because I don't have much interest in fantasy. I like Mantic as a company, I like their attitude to their customers and I like their prices - which I believe have nothing to do with the quality of their products and everything to do with them recognising that if you are good to your customers and provide a good product for a good price you'll attract custom (which is a breath of fresh air compared to GW's sales approach, which more and more these days seems to revolve around conning and manipulation). Reasonable prices aren't just easier on the wallet, they make you feel like you're being treated with respect.
I will be picking up some Mantic zombies very soon, and can't wait to see what their sci fi game has to offer. Looks like Space Dwarfs are a dead cert, so I'll probably be starting an army of those later this year I don't care if it's a bit generic. Tbh I like generic sci fi/space fantasy, if I didn't i wouldn't play 40k, and i welcome the prospect of low priced generic sci fi minis. I just hope GW don't try to slap them with a c&d, they really seem to think they have sole rights to the 'fantasy races in space' concept.
Samus666 wrote:I really love Mantic's Undead and Orcs, and I'm undecided about their Dwarfs and Elves. I do however think they are all good quality - there's nothing wrong with the Elf or Dwarf sculpts, it's just a matter of aesthetic taste. I see why they went for a different look for their elves, I've always been kind of frustrated by the GW Elves and Eldar having human physiques, contrary to the fluff. Also, it seems like they are sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't, in some eyes - they get criticised when they try a different aesthetic but also criticsed for not being original enough.
The only things I still like about GW are the 40k fluff and their plastic minis (especially Dark Eldar). I'm eager to see if Mantic can trump GW in these areas too. They already have some fantastic lookign minis and theonly reason I haven't bought off them yet is because I don't have much interest in fantasy. I like Mantic as a company, I like their attitude to their customers and I like their prices - which I believe have nothing to do with the quality of their products and everything to do with them recognising that if you are good to your customers and provide a good product for a good price you'll attract custom (which is a breath of fresh air compared to GW's sales approach, which more and more these days seems to revolve around conning and manipulation). Reasonable prices aren't just easier on the wallet, they make you feel like you're being treated with respect.
I will be picking up some Mantic zombies very soon, and can't wait to see what their sci fi game has to offer. Looks like Space Dwarfs are a dead cert, so I'll probably be starting an army of those later this year I don't care if it's a bit generic. Tbh I like generic sci fi/space fantasy, if I didn't i wouldn't play 40k, and i welcome the prospect of low priced generic sci fi minis. I just hope GW don't try to slap them with a c&d, they really seem to think they have sole rights to the 'fantasy races in space' concept.
This guy has hit the nail on the head and has said everything i was thinking.I too am anxious to see what they can come up with in terms of sci fi.
I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.
xxvaderxx wrote:I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.
:'/ but as Delephont mentioned ( and i agree with )
miniature have evolved and improved during the long years. Mantic ( even though new ) should have the advantage or atleast seen the mistakes of mini sculpts of the past
thus improving on it.
Though i also do agree with you , that the whole complaints about the Elves are only the aesthetic issues ( some find them too thin, i find them perfect as what elves should be )
only time will tell if they need to "improve" the style due to the majority's demands / taste.
frozenwastes wrote:I think anyone posting about how they think the elves look should also include a disclaimer as to whether or not they have seen them in person and whether or not they have seen them in person, painted.
The pictures on Mantic's site are probably not helping.
As to whether or not it's alright to give them a pass because they are new, I say yeah. People do this in all industries all the time. In electronics if some company comes out with a new gadget for the first time, you'll often see reviewers say things like "but since this was HP's first foray into the Netbook market, it's understandable that they got a few things wrong." or "Hyndai's initial offerings for the North American market seem cheap and don't exude a feeling of quality. Hopefully they'll improve with future year's models."
That aside, the elves are actually better than what most people who have never seen them in person think they are. Am I going out and building an army of them? Nope. But enough people did for Mantic to have the cash and encouragement to make their whole line. The elves were pretty much the test bed for their product approach and it worked for Mantic. If someone pointed a gun at me and said "make an elf army-- or else!" I'd choose Mantic over GW's High Elf and Dark Elf warrior boxes. Those are chunky poo.
I have an entire army of them, courtesy of Mantic themselves from the "Name this Unit" contest and them selecting my idea for the Dwarf "Ironwatch".
I actually chose the Elves, thinking they might be "better in person". They just aren't that good overall. The proportions are all wrong, and people keep putting forward the idea that they're wearing "skintight armor" yet have chainmail layered underneath means they would literally have to be stick figures inside of their armor and layered mail.
Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?
But honestly, I'd rather do my own amalgation of GW's plastic kits and GS/brass rod work if I were to be "making an Elf army" for either High Elves or Dark Elves. The Warrior boxes may not be the greatest, but the Corsairs and some elbow grease can make something nice and thematic for Dark Elves and High Elves have the Lothern Sea Guard from the IoB boxed set(which are also sold by themselves) to work from.
The fact that you left out the one Elf range that entirely was revamped and is overall a "Good Example", the Wood Elves, is likely an oversight but to do that is kind of silly. It is the quintessential "Elf" range. GW has been redoing their Dark/High Elf ranges gradually to match that range. Look at the more recent LSG, the Cold One Knights, et al. The only dud still left is still the standard warrior box(why? I have no clue).
Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....
So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.
So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.
I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.
Exactly the lack of maturity influences directly the quality and that is something to be considered in a comparison.
I'm not saying they should do miniatures like GW 1974 I'm saying the learning curve and maturation just started and as such it should be included in any fair comparison.
Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....
So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.
So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.
I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.
By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".
They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.
Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?
Who told you they were elf skeletons to begin with?.
Want to talk proportion issues? then why not mention GWs proportion issues WITH IN THE SAME RACE?.
I could take it even further and state Quality only gets you that far. In the cars industry, the best cars in the world (and most expensive) are probably either Ferrari or Rolls Rois, they are very healthy companies with healthy profit margins and development, hell one of them is even on the best and most competitive race league in the world (F1).
That being said, their global market shares is minimum, which in Cars in not all that big of a deal, as long as you can buy the vehicle and the manufacturer supports it, you are ok. How ever in the games industry, that is not enough, you need OTHER people to play the game with, and as GW past 5 years has shown in their own annual reports, that customer base is shrinking, quite steeply if i may add (20% from 2005 to present). So is Mantic quality as good as GW, probably not yet, but the bigger point is that IT DOES NOT MATTER, they dont need to be the best or even as good, they need to be good enough to look good on formations, which they more than are at the moment.
Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?
Who told you they were elf skeletons to begin with?
Mantic's own fluff, provided in the boxes you get with their Elves.
Want to talk proportion issues? then why not mention GWs proportion issues WITH IN THE SAME RACE?.
Probably because those proportion issues are in kits with ten years difference between them, maybe?
It's like asking why the Power Armored Marneus Calgar is so much worse than the Terminator armored version.
Kanluwen wrote:By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".
They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.
Okay, very true. I just think that Mantic has their own style and it may not be to everyone's tastes. At the end of the day, I think Mantic has comes leaps and bounds from those initial Elves sculpts. So, hopefully we'll see their stuff get better and better in the future. Aside from the Elves I think most people would be hard pressed to say their other races don't look good. They have their own style without copying GW too much, and they're released a good price point. That's more than enough for me to give some of my money, beta test rules and try to help them get a good footing in the miniatures market so they can continue to improve.
Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....
So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.
So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.
I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.
By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".
They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.
The final product presented to the costumer is not a exclusive consequence of a particular sculptor alone and rather a agglomeration of efforts and biz decisions from several biz people of different areas of expertise, it would be naive to think the sculptor alone defines a product... want one example? Finecast... good sculpts, good experienced sculptors ruined by bad cast.
This is a team work and if the team in general lacks the oil of experience some mistakes are more prone to happens... HOW they handle their shortcommings and mistakes WILL determine their success.
Probably because those proportion issues are in kits with ten years difference between them, maybe?
Ten year difference? where the hell did you pop that number from?. Wolf troops V wolf terminators, Fantasy empire comander box v regular troopers, mages v troopers, goldenswordmen v troopers.
Mantic's own fluff, provided in the boxes you get with their Elves.
What you mean that 2 sheet of paper you received with the box?, now we know that is written in stone and GW has never pulled a 180 on their fluff.
xxvaderxx wrote:
What you mean that 2 sheet of paper you received with the box?, now we know that is written in stone and GW has never pulled a 180 on their fluff.
Be careful, that's one of the things people hate about GW. If we, as wargamers, are now using this as a defence for one company over another....then don't we negate that very same gripe we have with GW?!?
Kan, we get that you don't like the Mantic elves but does it really need 7 pages of back and forth? So you don't like them - fine; now let's move on...
I got a couple of the "free elves" that mantic gave out when they started their line. The sculpts are nice, but they are too small next to my reaper and other fantasy miniatures.
They make rather tall gnomes, I suppose. I don't like them.
I love their undead line, though. Perfect scale for my D&D campaign.
I'm assuming they will do a human army. I'm hoping it could have a not-DKOK look. THAT would be cool...
I'm not really seeing where the age of the company comes into how good its sculpts are?
The only advantage GW has is that it has a set style to work to and everyone working for them know what it is.
Mantic are entirely capable of hiring or commissioning (as they have) very good sculptors to make models for them. Hell, they could even hire someone who has been sculpting longer than GW has been around if they really wanted to.
Delephont wrote:You know, while I have every support for Mantic, and I really want these guys to do well. I don't mean so that they can deal a death blow to GW, I could give a crap for GW, no, I want them to do well so that we, the wargaming community, can enjoy more choice.
Right, so, having explained my stance, I feel I need to comment on this whole "GW is 30 and Mantic is 1" thing.
When GW started off, the whole concept of fantasy and sci fi miniatures was an absolute dream....there were no pioneers. Sure you had your historicals, but looking at those guys, even they weren't brilliant, and certainly not at such small scale.
Fast forward to today, we've got miniatures in 28mm scale that rival 1/4 scale statues, what some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....
So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.
...
...
.
I must take exception to that. Citadel/GW did not invent F/SF miniatures. I was buying SF and Fantasy miniatures from MiniFigs in the mid-70s. They were pretty crappy by modern standards, to be sure, but they pre-dated Citadel by several years. I'm pretty sure Ral Partha too were in production before Citadel.
You're right about the information and techniques available these days. It shouldn't be hard to commission a set of masters from some really good sculptors.
Same goes for fluff. You just put down some basic concepts, brainstorm things a bit, and write a good brief based on that. Then commission a fantasy or SF author to write a timeline, background material and some representative fiction pieces. Artwork, blah blah, etc.
You won't get 30 Black Library novels in a year, but you can get the basic of an internally consistent future background done in a few months.
SilverMK2 wrote:I'm not really seeing where the age of the company comes into how good its sculpts are?
The only advantage GW has is that it has a set style to work to and everyone working for them know what it is.
Mantic are entirely capable of hiring or commissioning (as they have) very good sculptors to make models for them. Hell, they could even hire someone who has been sculpting longer than GW has been around if they really wanted to.
If only things were so simplistic... Design, material/ cast limitations, tight schedules etc and a never ending list of things DO influence the final result! But Im repeating myself here... I can even tell you that you can gather a team of the best pros ever born and the final result can still be not positive.
SilverMK2 wrote:I'm not really seeing where the age of the company comes into how good its sculpts are?
The only advantage GW has is that it has a set style to work to and everyone working for them know what it is.
Mantic are entirely capable of hiring or commissioning (as they have) very good sculptors to make models for them. Hell, they could even hire someone who has been sculpting longer than GW has been around if they really wanted to.
If only things were so simplistic... Design, material/ cast limitations, tight schedules etc and a never ending list of things DO influence the final result! But Im repeating myself here... I can even tell you that you can gather a team of the best pros ever born and the final result can still be not positive.
John Romero failed at making us his bitch, one of the best examples out there.
NAVARRO wrote:If only things were so simplistic... Design, material/ cast limitations, tight schedules etc and a never ending list of things DO influence the final result! But Im repeating myself here... I can even tell you that you can gather a team of the best pros ever born and the final result can still be not positive.
Really? I find this logic very hard to follow.
There's only a few things that would lead to a bad product (under those circumstances) and they all stem from the company CEO/directors/Leadership.....one factor would be unclear direction, the other would be lack of investment....but that's it. If you hired experienced sculptors, and operations team, and gave them clear direction as to what you wanted, and based on their assessment, invested the required funds...the prodcut would come pretty much, as close as damn it, to what you wanted....ok, the products success will ultimately be seen in the market place....that's another discussion maybe, but as far as getting "positive" results in the form of getting what the company wants.....why not?
SilverMK2 wrote:But again, the age of the company doesn't have a massive influence in any of that...
That, as you say can make the difference between a project that doesnt kick start well and never passes the first level and closes down... to a biz that can built up the next steps with some latitude due to acquired stability... the more time you tried a formula the more you can change it to your preferences... If you tried it out for the first time in your 1 year life, all is a bit of a surprise and really not knowing how things will be accepted by the clients. These projects evolve and the more time you are at it the more defenses you have ( its not black and white thing though many successful formulas done over and over again sometimes dry up and unless you find a new one you die)
Delephont wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:If only things were so simplistic... Design, material/ cast limitations, tight schedules etc and a never ending list of things DO influence the final result! But Im repeating myself here... I can even tell you that you can gather a team of the best pros ever born and the final result can still be not positive.
Really? I find this logic very hard to follow.
There's only a few things that would lead to a bad product (under those circumstances) and they all stem from the company CEO/directors/Leadership.....one factor would be unclear direction, the other would be lack of investment....but that's it. If you hired experienced sculptors, and operations team, and gave them clear direction as to what you wanted, and based on their assessment, invested the required funds...the prodcut would come pretty much, as close as damn it, to what you wanted....ok, the products success will ultimately be seen in the market place....that's another discussion maybe, but as far as getting "positive" results in the form of getting what the company wants.....why not?
Few things? Sorry Delephont mate but in creative industry you never ever have a safe bet and the tiniest thing can destroy a rather well executed package... for example Heldorado... great minis, superb stuff art package but didnt pass the french tiny barriers and also had some "problems" with some fluff things...
These projects are far from that simple.
How many miniatures games and projects had a very professional creative face and crumbled to other factors?
Also reading you seems that a very good leadership is enough for a company to have success... It helps a lot but its not the ONLY factor to have in consideration... how many great companies with competent leadership didnt manage to "sell" their creative high quality universes?
NAVARRO wrote: Few things? Sorry Delephont mate but in creative industry you never ever have a safe bet and the tiniest thing can destroy a rather well executed package... for example Heldorado... great minis, superb stuff art package but didnt pass the french tiny barriers and also had some "problems" with some fluff things...
These projects are far from that simple.
How many miniatures games and projects had a very professional creative face and crumbled to other factors?
Also reading you seems that a very good leadership is enough for a company to have success... It helps a lot but its not the ONLY factor to have in consideration... how many great companies with competent leadership didnt manage to "sell" their creative high quality universes?
Creative industries are not that linear IMO.
I think we are talking around each other I don't disagree with you. I think, to make things simple, you can break a project down into two phases, pre production and post production. Pre production, a company has an idea, a concept, and works towards making that concept a working "reality"....this is the area I was mostly discussing. This is where the company gathers the right people (in terms of experience and ability). Once the whole team believes the product to be ready, they hit the button, and KAPOW....it appears on the shelf at the shops....now this, for example, is post production, and this is where we'll see if the initial concept and the way that concept was executed will actually be successful in its target market.
The examples you give above of failures, in my opinion, all happen in the post production stage, and it turns out that the concepts strategies that the company wanted to express, for whatever reason, was not well recieved by the market.
However, like most people have been saying, this has nothing what-so-ever to do with the age of the company.....granted, the age of the individuals who make up the company may well paly a big role, if the guys are fresh out of University, arrogant and feel that what-ever they do will be gold, then yes, that will definately play a role in the products success. But look at Mantic, these guys have been in the industry for years....so they don't have that excuse.
All in all, it seems like a waste of time arguing over whether the Elves are good or bad it's clearly a question of taste, by all means, a person can state clearly that they either like or dislike them, but to drag the debate on and on like this is pointless.....unless you are trying to convince others to change their mind....I shall mention no names here.
xxvaderxx wrote:I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.
I am not a Mantic hater. If I was, I wouldn't have written rules for sieges, Kislev armies and other things for use with their Kings of War game. But that doesn't mean I like what they've done with the miniature line. They've only made plastics for units that already have plastic kits from GW, and some of them have really obvious flaws. The Ghouls and Zombies are great, but if the heads at Mantic can look at their top-hat-wearing, gak-eating-grinning doofus of a mascot for their Ax regiment and claim that they're intimidating or less comedic than GW's, they're crazy.
AlexHolker wrote:The Ghouls and Zombies are great, but if the heads at Mantic can look at their top-hat-wearing, gak-eating-grinning doofus of a mascot for their Ax regiment and claim that they're intimidating or less comedic than GW's, they're crazy
This, for me, is SO true. I watched the BoW Turn 8, and I almost fell off my chair when the head guy from Mantic explained that their Orks were "not comical, and looked agressive and menacing!".....WTF! Those guys are as comical as anything.....I mean, they're not bad, but they ain't that different to the GW offerings.
The Orks from LotR, now those guys were serious....but what most game companies consider to be orks, are (IMHO) just GW derivative work.
xxvaderxx wrote:I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.
I am not a Mantic hater. If I was, I wouldn't have written rules for sieges, Kislev armies and other things for use with their Kings of War game. But that doesn't mean I like what they've done with the miniature line. They've only made plastics for units that already have plastic kits from GW, and some of them have really obvious flaws. The Ghouls and Zombies are great, but if the heads at Mantic can look at their top-hat-wearing, gak-eating-grinning doofus of a mascot for their Ax regiment and claim that they're intimidating or less comedic than GW's, they're crazy.
Both dwarft races are grate.
All undead are grate
Orcs are grate.
GW already had plastics for them? i guess you dont really have a clue what mantic is about...
xxvaderxx wrote:GW already had plastics for them? i guess you dont really have a clue what mantic is about...
Again, people need to comprehend that there's a difference between not understanding how a company does things and not agreeing with how a company does things. I know what Mantic is about, but the lack of innovation in their miniatures range is the reason I expect to be buying AoW's next plastic kit and none of Mantic's.
xxvaderxx wrote:GW already had plastics for them? i guess you dont really have a clue what mantic is about...
Again, people need to comprehend that there's a difference between not understanding how a company does things and not agreeing with how a company does things. I know what Mantic is about, but the lack of innovation in their miniatures range is the reason I expect to be buying AoW's next plastic kit and none of Mantic's.
I think you should seriously look up the word "Innovation" in a dictionary.
In fact, does anybody actually know how is it that AoW has not been sued out of existence by now?. I know its off topic, but i cant figure that one out.
You can not trademark dwarf, elf, undead, as they are part of popular culture.
I could produce a dwarf model tomorrow, and GW would just ignore me.
The ONLY way they can sue is if the model is so similar as to produce confusion, and even then its iffy.
If GW continue to ignore their specialists games, then eventually you could challenge them for the copyright in court, as you have to actively use/defend your copyrights in order to maintain them.
People need to get out of the mindset that GW own fantasy and sci-fi - they do not. They stole most of their universes from other places as well. In fact GW owes quite a bit to J.R.R. Tolkien as that is where most of their "ideas" came from in the first place.
You can not trademark dwarf, elf, undead, as they are part of popular culture.
I could produce a dwarf model tomorrow, and GW would just ignore me.
The ONLY way they can sue is if the model is so similar as to produce confusion, and even then its iffy.
If GW continue to ignore their specialists games, then eventually you could challenge them for the copyright in court, as you have to actively use/defend your copyrights in order to maintain them.
People need to get out of the mindset that GW own fantasy and sci-fi - they do not. They stole most of their universes from other places as well. In fact GW owes quite a bit to J.R.R. Tolkien as that is where most of their "ideas" came from in the first place.
Cmon be honest, they are carbon copy of GW`s IP, as i said before other companies have been sued for much less.
You can not trademark dwarf, elf, undead, as they are part of popular culture.
I could produce a dwarf model tomorrow, and GW would just ignore me.
The ONLY way they can sue is if the model is so similar as to produce confusion, and even then its iffy.
If GW continue to ignore their specialists games, then eventually you could challenge them for the copyright in court, as you have to actively use/defend your copyrights in order to maintain them.
People need to get out of the mindset that GW own fantasy and sci-fi - they do not. They stole most of their universes from other places as well. In fact GW owes quite a bit to J.R.R. Tolkien as that is where most of their "ideas" came from in the first place.
Cmon be honest, they are carbon copy of GW`s IP, as i said before other companies have been sued for much less.
Why of course it is. One look at GW's fantasy range reveals a wealth of protectable ideas, from the fanciful dwarven flying machines, steam tanks, riflemen... I mean, the list just goes on and on...
*N.B. Before anyone begins ranting about who copied who, my point isn't who first popularized a unit, it's noting that almost nothing aside from a few of the proper names in WHFB (or WoW, for that matter) are protectable in any meaningful way.
As people are discussing in the CHS threads, it seems like it would be very difficult to actually infringe upon GW's IP without physically making a cast of a GW item. AoW make very generic fantasy models; the only one of theirs I think is even vaguely approaching real GW IP is the ogre, and even then the idea of a mongoloid ogre is hardly protectable.
GW have not completely abandoned their Specialist Games - they do still sell the models. Unlike say, their Lamassu model which they recently caused a small stir. Even then , copyright expires only after 30 years of misuse iirc.
I'm looking forward to seeing some humans or xenos from mantic - some great-coated guardsmen types would be cool
Indeed, vonsirius. Dragging the thread back on topic...
Despite the various accusations, Mantic does have a business strategy distinctly different to that of GW, and this inevitably influences design of both their models and their games.
Whether you personally like or dislike particular sculpts is entirely subjective. Having painted a goodly number of Mantic minis, now, I think some sculpts are a bit rubbish whilst some are brilliant. I would say exactly the same thing about GW.
But Mantic has always been about "building big armies". And KoW is about playing games with big armies. You can play with smaller forces, but the degree of abstraction can be a bit distracting. But when you play with a really huge force of dozens or hundreds of models the game comes into its own and is a really epic experience.
As far as Warpath goes, I would expect something similar: big armies with big tanks and rules stripped down to enable epic conflicts. Imagine an Apocalypse game that doesn't take a whole weekend to play four turns! I would also, therefore expect the forces in Warpath to be priced accordingly. As was recently pointed out elsewhere, one can buy a whole Mantic army for less than the price of some GW 5-model regiments. At the size of game KoW is designed to support, the occasional weak sculpt is absorbed into the impact of an entire army.
Having said all that, I'm not too thrilled with the concept artwork for Warpath. The half-track dog-tank thing is unspeakably silly, and the space dwarves barely less-so. Making Abyssal Dwarves for KoW was an act that seemed more inspired by antipathy (albeit relatively good-natured) towards GW than by good business sense, and making space dwarves would seem to be a similar act of corporate nose-thumbing.
I'm hoping to be impressed by Warpath. So far I'm yet to be convinced, but it's very early days for what's been released for fans to see. For now, Ronnie and crew, I remain cautiously optimistic.
You can not trademark dwarf, elf, undead, as they are part of popular culture.
I could produce a dwarf model tomorrow, and GW would just ignore me.
The ONLY way they can sue is if the model is so similar as to produce confusion, and even then its iffy.
If GW continue to ignore their specialists games, then eventually you could challenge them for the copyright in court, as you have to actively use/defend your copyrights in order to maintain them.
People need to get out of the mindset that GW own fantasy and sci-fi - they do not. They stole most of their universes from other places as well. In fact GW owes quite a bit to J.R.R. Tolkien as that is where most of their "ideas" came from in the first place.
Cmon be honest, they are carbon copy of GW`s IP, as i said before other companies have been sued for much less.
Why of course it is. One look at GW's fantasy range reveals a wealth of protectable ideas, from the fanciful dwarven flying machines, steam tanks, riflemen... I mean, the list just goes on and on...
*N.B. Before anyone begins ranting about who copied who, my point isn't who first popularized a unit, it's noting that almost nothing aside from a few of the proper names in WHFB (or WoW, for that matter) are protectable in any meaningful way.
Uh dwarves have been portrayed as technically advanced in a number of books/rpgs etc.
I could make a dwarven helicopter tomorrow, and as long as I do not call it "Dwarven Gyrocopter" or make it an exact copy - I am golden. I could make it look very similar, but its my ip, and they can not sue me for it.
In fact I'm more than willing to bet GW has already asked their lawyers about Mantic, and have been shot down hard. GW is very legal happy, which is detrimental to the hobby, but good for GW.
Personally, I can not wait to see WARPATH rules and miniatures, and I'm hopeful its easily scaleable from small to large battles. If they do a human empire army, I am hopeful that if they have walking tanks, they are a lot better than the "I'm an american footballer in armour" that space marines have going on.
Hold up... isn't there a Dwarven Gyrocoptor in Warcraft II and Warcraft III? I wasn't aware that GW had invented the concept of a medieval helicopter that happens to be piloted by Dwarves?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Hold up... isn't there a Dwarven Gyrocoptor in Warcraft II and Warcraft III? I wasn't aware that GW had invented the concept of a medieval helicopter that happens to be piloted by Dwarves?
Didn't you know? GW invented everything under Heaven, including Heaven. Or at least their IP lawyers would like you to think.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Hold up... isn't there a Dwarven Gyrocoptor in Warcraft II and Warcraft III? I wasn't aware that GW had invented the concept of a medieval helicopter that happens to be piloted by Dwarves?
My point exactly.
According to google, I could call it a Dwarven Gyrocopter, as a gyrocopter is a thing, and not something made up by GW.
Also I like the distinct elven look quite a bit, and would consider collecting a sci-fi elf army if the sci-fi undead do not capture my imagination.
Maybe I'm just completely anti-GW now, but blocking off Euro retailers, and then claiming they "support the hobby" in Australia just annoys me to no end.
Swordwind wrote:Didn't you know? GW invented everything under Heaven, including Heaven. Or at least their IP lawyers AND APOLOGISTS would like you to think.
AoW = Avatars of War, loki - they've done a selection of heroes (and now a couple of plastic units, I believe), who some would have you believe is a direct take on GW's IP.
Why of course it is. One look at GW's fantasy range reveals a wealth of protectable ideas, from the fanciful dwarven flying machines, steam tanks, riflemen... I mean, the list just goes on and on...
*N.B. Before anyone begins ranting about who copied who, my point isn't who first popularized a unit, it's noting that almost nothing aside from a few of the proper names in WHFB (or WoW, for that matter) are protectable in any meaningful way.
Uh dwarves have been portrayed as technically advanced in a number of books/rpgs etc.
I could make a dwarven helicopter tomorrow, and as long as I do not call it "Dwarven Gyrocopter" or make it an exact copy - I am golden. I could make it look very similar, but its my ip, and they can not sue me for it.
In fact I'm more than willing to bet GW has already asked their lawyers about Mantic, and have been shot down hard. GW is very legal happy, which is detrimental to the hobby, but good for GW.
Personally, I can not wait to see WARPATH rules and miniatures, and I'm hopeful its easily scaleable from small to large battles. If they do a human empire army, I am hopeful that if they have walking tanks, they are a lot better than the "I'm an american footballer in armour" that space marines have going on.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Hold up... isn't there a Dwarven Gyrocoptor in Warcraft II and Warcraft III? I wasn't aware that GW had invented the concept of a medieval helicopter that happens to be piloted by Dwarves?
My only point in objecting to people judging the entirety of mantics range by their elves is that it's stupid to judge other miniatures lines by look at miniatures not in those lines. And that a company's first offerings may have issues as they figure things out.
I think th elves look better in person than in the pictures, but the proportions and sizes make them incompatible with my other elf miniatures from a variety of companies that are not GW. And they're especially incompatible with GW.
I just don't get how their elves being bad influences anything about their fantastic zombies and ghouls. Is this a result of the GW only mindset where you think you have to use miniatures from one manufacturer and one manufacturer only, so if you don't like *everything* they do, then they all become bad?
Is it just me? When I was watching the BOW turn 8 vid on the announcement of Warpath when Ronnie seemed serious when he said he was not releasing anymore details about it unit Warpath week on BOW.
After that he jokingly said Space dwarfs and Space Orcs. I took this as a Joke so I would not assume that they are going to do fantasy in space just yet they seemed to be taking the piss out of that concept on the show.
Grot 6, nothing you're saying is disagreeing with anything I've been saying. I've been gaming since 1984 and have seen many companies come and go. I've seen the top dogs disappear into obscurity and up and comers fizzle so quickly.
But none of that has anything to do with a company's earliest miniatures being their poorest. I'm glad they've gotten better and agree that they need to get better still.
I don't see what is "drinking the koolaid" about saying "Yeah, their first stuff is not as good as their later stuff." Or "It's a shame their elves are incompatible with all the other elves on the market, especially lose made by the biggest player in miniatures (GW)."
Perhaps you're reading some other posts into my posts?
What I am saying is that judging miniatures from the undead line by the elf line is totally illogical regardless if the company making them is GW, Manitc, Privateer, Reaper or another other miniature company.
Buy the miniatures you like from whatever companies make them and play with whatever rules you like. In what way is that asking you to drink the koolaid?
As an aside, I never really understood why people get such a hard on for continued company support of a game.
I mean, once you've bought the game, have your miniatures etc, and have a group to play with, what does it matter if the company that made the game goes out of business?
In my opinion, this is one of the contributing factors in the whole GW saga....in some ways, it could be said that they are responding to the communities "needs" with their continous updates and rules changes....we the consumer have created an unwritten rule in terms of "the need for continous support" which in turn has created a marketing and business strategy that most wargames companies use as a bench-mark.
kronk wrote:Clearly WARPATH has stolen from Dune's IP.
Quick, someone find that one guy that has actually watched that movie...
Dune is a novel, a famous one at that, which started a series of novels.
And there are two Dune movies now (plus an alternative design for the first one by Giger that was rejected).
kronk wrote:Clearly WARPATH has stolen from Dune's IP.
Quick, someone find that one guy that has actually watched that movie...
Dune is a novel, a famous one at that, which started a series of novels.
And there are two Dune movies now (plus an alternative design for the first one by Giger that was rejected).
Actually there's only one Dune movie. Produced in the 1980s by David Lynch.
The other was a miniseries done by SciFi Channel/Hallmark Entertainment.
Although I should also add that it's worth noting that while Lynch was fairly close to the source material, he also took absurd liberties with parts of it (like the "Weirding Module" and the Navigator looking like a giant wrinkled stingray).
Delephont wrote:As an aside, I never really understood why people get such a hard on for continued company support of a game.
I mean, once you've bought the game, have your miniatures etc, and have a group to play with, what does it matter if the company that made the game goes out of business?
In my opinion, this is one of the contributing factors in the whole GW saga....in some ways, it could be said that they are responding to the communities "needs" with their continous updates and rules changes....we the consumer have created an unwritten rule in terms of "the need for continous support" which in turn has created a marketing and business strategy that most wargames companies use as a bench-mark.
People need the buzz to keep themselves entertained... even if I personally dont care much about the company itself but rather the products they do its safe to assume that a company that keeps a steady job entertaining me by new minis new rules updates etc is a company that will get more of my money.
There are lots of miniatures companies on the market and if people only imagined the time frame to sculpt a miniature and cast and finally put it on the market they would not be surprised if some miniatures take more than a couple months to be released... yet if a company doesnt release some minis every month its considered "dead"... you know man and their toys... they always want more and faster.
kronk wrote:Clearly WARPATH has stolen from Dune's IP.
Quick, someone find that one guy that has actually watched that movie...
Dune is a novel, a famous one at that, which started a series of novels.
And there are two Dune movies now (plus an alternative design for the first one by Giger that was rejected).
Actually there's only one Dune movie. Produced in the 1980s by David Lynch.
The other was a miniseries done by SciFi Channel/Hallmark Entertainment.
Although I should also add that it's worth noting that while Lynch was fairly close to the source material, he also took absurd liberties with parts of it (like the "Weirding Module" and the Navigator looking like a giant wrinkled stingray).
Not true, about there being only one movie....the second one is in production apparently.....and yes: I'm a MASSIVE Dune fan.....the best Sci Fi ever written in my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NAVARRO wrote:
Delephont wrote:As an aside, I never really understood why people get such a hard on for continued company support of a game.
I mean, once you've bought the game, have your miniatures etc, and have a group to play with, what does it matter if the company that made the game goes out of business?
In my opinion, this is one of the contributing factors in the whole GW saga....in some ways, it could be said that they are responding to the communities "needs" with their continous updates and rules changes....we the consumer have created an unwritten rule in terms of "the need for continous support" which in turn has created a marketing and business strategy that most wargames companies use as a bench-mark.
People need the buzz to keep themselves entertained... even if I personally dont care much about the company itself but rather the products they do its safe to assume that a company that keeps a steady job entertaining me by new minis new rules updates etc is a company that will get more of my money.
There are lots of miniatures companies on the market and if people only imagined the time frame to sculpt a miniature and cast and finally put it on the market they would not be surprised if some miniatures take more than a couple months to be released... yet if a company doesnt release some minis every month its considered "dead"... you know man and their toys... they always want more and faster.
You must be talking about one of my miniature producing heros Corvus Belli yes, they seem to be able to maintain the buzz with beautiful sculpts almost every month....amazing company.
kronk wrote:Clearly WARPATH has stolen from Dune's IP.
Quick, someone find that one guy that has actually watched that movie...
Dune is a novel, a famous one at that, which started a series of novels.
And there are two Dune movies now (plus an alternative design for the first one by Giger that was rejected).
Actually there's only one Dune movie. Produced in the 1980s by David Lynch.
The other was a miniseries done by SciFi Channel/Hallmark Entertainment.
Although I should also add that it's worth noting that while Lynch was fairly close to the source material, he also took absurd liberties with parts of it (like the "Weirding Module" and the Navigator looking like a giant wrinkled stingray).
Not true, about there being only one movie....the second one is in production apparently.....and yes: I'm a MASSIVE Dune fan.....the best Sci Fi ever written in my opinion.
I didn't believe you at first, but then I looked and there it was. Dune(2014) and no other details out there.
frozenwastes wrote:Grot 6, nothing you're saying is disagreeing with anything I've been saying. I've been gaming since 1984 and have seen many companies come and go. I've seen the top dogs disappear into obscurity and up and comers fizzle so quickly.
But none of that has anything to do with a company's earliest miniatures being their poorest. I'm glad they've gotten better and agree that they need to get better still.
I don't see what is "drinking the koolaid" about saying "Yeah, their first stuff is not as good as their later stuff." Or "It's a shame their elves are incompatible with all the other elves on the market, especially lose made by the biggest player in miniatures (GW)."
Perhaps you're reading some other posts into my posts?
What I am saying is that judging miniatures from the undead line by the elf line is totally illogical regardless if the company making them is GW, Manitc, Privateer, Reaper or another other miniature company.
Buy the miniatures you like from whatever companies make them and play with whatever rules you like. In what way is that asking you to drink the koolaid?
nah, bro. My ... uh post was a add to the general discussion, not that you'd know it now.
Aside from whatever ~!@# keeps nicking my posts, I'm saying the same thing you are.
Long story short is that at the end of the day we're talking about gaming, and all fo the sideshow antics that GW brought to the table were outright unnessesary. I mean by "Drinking the kool-aid" by the impression that people are giving that Mantic is walking on water here and can do no wrong. Honestly? If you like them, hey thats great, buy them and play. I just don't see throwing up a bunch of airs that quite frankly it is too early to tell that they are going to stick around. Elfs smelfs, milfs, I don't care about them, honestly. My thing is that we've seen time and again, the be all end all company that was supposed to give GW competition, and where are they all now? Either C and D'd into oblivion, or they have taken the preverbial crap on themselves and did themselves the solid.
At the end of the day, we're talking about decent figures, and a decent price, with a staff that actually is discussing whats going on and coming to us with something other then, "Yeah, we did it, what are you going to do about it?", mentality.
MDizzle wrote:Is it just me? When I was watching the BOW turn 8 vid on the announcement of Warpath when Ronnie seemed serious when he said he was not releasing anymore details about it unit Warpath week on BOW.
After that he jokingly said Space dwarfs and Space Orcs. I took this as a Joke so I would not assume that they are going to do fantasy in space just yet they seemed to be taking the piss out of that concept on the show.
He could have been misleading us, but I doubt it. The leaked concept art clearly shows a vehicle driven by a dwarf.
I thought I heard him say "Space Elves" but I don't have great computer audio.
MDizzle wrote:Is it just me? When I was watching the BOW turn 8 vid on the announcement of Warpath when Ronnie seemed serious when he said he was not releasing anymore details about it unit Warpath week on BOW.
After that he jokingly said Space dwarfs and Space Orcs. I took this as a Joke so I would not assume that they are going to do fantasy in space just yet they seemed to be taking the piss out of that concept on the show.
He could have been misleading us, but I doubt it. The leaked concept art clearly shows a vehicle driven by a dwarf.
I thought I heard him say "Space Elves" but I don't have great computer audio.
In all honesty all it was was a chicken-scratch concept sketch on a napkin or something.
We know that Warpath is coming out, other then that, we have some hope that there is going to be some drunkin spacedwarfs, and something like a thundercat tank. Until we have more, like I said, Mantics a nice new company coming out of the box with the new shoe smell. Lets see how they do with some prepainted crap that "80% of the gamers out there can play with out of the box", or ... "You can use any sci-fi figures andmake up your own races, and...." or the ever populer, "Hey it's cheapers to play, AND... you don't need that munch of a investment to play a game!" or any number of false flag claims that companies that have come and gone have given us over the years.
I'm sure I missed a few, but I hope they do well, regardless. I, for one, welcome our new mass production space dwarf army overlords.
It simply says that Paramount has dropped out, it doesn't say the director has decided to drop the project.
Sorry if this is off topic (even though the actual topic is dead!?!?) but I'd love to see a modern remake, using the latest technology.....still, nothing will ever compare to the books
Swordwind wrote:Didn't you know? GW invented everything under Heaven, including Heaven. Or at least their IP lawyers AND APOLOGISTS would like you to think.
Added to your line..
Vlad, love your work!!!
Padre^.
Thank you good sir! I'm glad that the truly intelligent people on this forum have been appreciating my work.
While trawling the Mantic site a few weeks ago, I've seen something that may hint a bit towards this game Warpath.....try to follow my logic.
"Recently" Mantic has gone into a trade partnership with Hasslefree miniatures, selling their "Sci Fi" girls....when I first saw this, I coudn't quite understand why Mantic, who up until that point were predominantly a fantasy miniatures company, would strike such a contrast in their offered ranges.....
Fast forward to the announcement, and things are starting to make sense....I think we can safely assume there will be Space Dwarves....and guess who has been running a range of Space Dwarves (auite successfully I might add) for a while now....ever heard of Grymn? These are lovely miniatures (I own some) from Kev White!
Whether they Mantic would use those as a basis for the Warpath dwarves seems like a logical step.....
Now for my next leap of "logic"....Kev White is also behind some of the sculpting for another Sci Fi range, that strangely has no game attached to it, and yet, they seem to be ramping up....but for what? Yes, I'm talking about Studio McVey and it's Sedition Wars.....now, could it be that Warpath is simply a working name for the real project? and could it be that Sedition Wars with the exquisite fluff that has been generated for it is really the game that Mantic will release....?
The second part may seem far fetched, but, if Mantic really did use the dwarves from Hasslefree and the Sedition Wars miniatures and fluff as a basis for their new game....I would pretty much stake my house on it being a hit....
If by some long shot, I'm right....WH40K is in for a world of hurt.
Space Dwarves with a slightly Grymm look to them would be okay, but I'd be happier if they made them into aliens rather than straight human analogues. Those little suit wearing guys from Mass Effect, Sontarans, Demiurg, Yoda- plenty of pint sized sci fi goodness out there, it doesn't have to be beards and noseguards in SPAAAAAAACE.
Hatin' on dat dogtank, do not want. Wants something new and interesting and definitely more interested in a range that takes itself seriously. If they just do 40K mk 2 I'll be quite disappointed. I'd rather see Human Faction, Other Human Faction, High Tech Alien Faction, Low Tech Alien Faction, Alien Faction with a Weird Social Structure and Bestial Alien faction. Mebbe Killer AI faction too. (Pretty sure we're getting space elves, space undead, space Dwarves, space orcs and space whatever elses though).
The other thing I really really want to see is dynamic and affordable plastic vehicle kits. GW do some great kits but as always price is the issue. I'd love to see some new and interesting stuff coming out that isn't just Not Leman Russ, Not Falcon Grav tank.
Unfortunately, if new and interesting equals completely stupid looking and pointlessly gimmicky design, will not want and will not buy.
How many of the people that whined about Elves actually had interest in Elves to start with?
I liked the undead , which i also loved the model. They are better and cheaper than GW's and you know there is one common thing about mantic units that are surperior than GW's?
They look absolutely beautiful when they are together in their large units, not just mass rolls of inanimate statues , but rather alive and animated .
That is something I have noticed with the Mantics, Luna. When together in the movement tray they look really good. I wholly agree with your assesment.
Also I am convinced that the painting style of the individual models is less conducive to looking good on camera. It somehow is not as photogenic as the 'eavy metal style.
I have seen several comments about how Mantics look better in the flesh, and have seen the Abyssal Dwarves on a turntable on video and they looked so much better than the static pics.
The way GW's heavy metal paint style has changed. Lots of their current style have one high priority. Which is to high light to emphasize a sculpt's detail and shape.
Which is safe to say, GW use their painting as a way to enhance the shape and form of the sculpts ( not to mention they have better paintings )
With those 2 things factored in, Mantic cannot possibly compete like that for the pics of their painted products.
The Eavy Metal style probably becomes a "standard" for people entering the hobby, and a lot do via GW. So when they see Mantics painted figures they will not look as impressive.
TBH seeing various other styles of painting on Dakka was a revelation for me as I was used to the GW housestyle. For me it was refreshing as I am not keen on the artificiality of the emphasis on the highlighting of details and edges.
That is not to take away from the skill of the painters nor slight those that prefer the Eavy Metal style.
The stuff is now out there only to just to sell lickies and chewies, not so much to emphisis new army construction and paint variation. As to the Elves, like I said, I hate pointies on a good day. More Elvis in Vegas? Yeah, thats always a good thing, but the elves were only one of the points of just throwing false hopes and dreams on Mantic when all they have done so far is to bring out another fantasy game and some new sculpts. That issue of the elves wasn't even a main one. THAT part of the conversations come and gone.
The point of that conversation was that the only thing different in those elves was a matter of perspective. All of the miniatures to date are just variations on a theme, and one to the other, you really can't say ones any better then the other, it is a sense of proportions, the style, the prespective. Nothing there is anything different, or stands out and says "WOW".
The allure of them is that they are reasonable, and not coming from a company that as of late is being run by a team of flying monkeys. That Mantic has a proportionate investment in not !@#$ing off the customer, and having er... Mr. Cavatore on board, a name that people can relate to.
At the end of the day, don't get wrapped around the elves, we were discussing prospective of the collective works, not really pointing at one or two sculpts.
Luna. GW's "Eavy Metal" painters... ARE Mantics. There seems to be more then a fair shair of unemployed model painters, and watching GW self destruct and see them try to hold onto past glory, all the while flushing it down the toilet, is not really competition. I can confidently predict that Mantic could crap in a hat, and it would come across to the general public 100% better then GW has with thier shenanigans of the past couple of weeks.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Thanks Luna
Confirms what I was thinking.
The Eavy Metal style probably becomes a "standard" for people entering the hobby, and a lot do via GW. So when they see Mantics painted figures they will not look as impressive.
TBH seeing various other styles of painting on Dakka was a revelation for me as I was used to the GW housestyle. For me it was refreshing as I am not keen on the artificiality of the emphasis on the highlighting of details and edges.
That is not to take away from the skill of the painters nor slight those that prefer the Eavy Metal style.
Agreed.. Never been a big fan of highlighting every edge either
For those wanting to know more about Mantic's new game, be sure to go to the Open Day on the 9th of July (not too sure if this date has changed since the last announcement). More details can be found here.
To quote the main article:
We’ve been inundated with requests for more information about the Open Day and Warpath and, well, today we can satisfy one of those requests… the Open Day of course!
First up, the location… The Open Day will be held at the location of our new warehouse and offices, which is bigger than the venue of our last event.
The address you’ll need is: Mantic Games (Camtex House), Greasley Street, Bulwell, Nottingham, NG6 8NG
You can press Ronnie and Alessio on
what’s happening with Warpath at the Open Day
Next up, we’re proud to announce that once again, Golem Painting Studio will be attending the event!
Tommie and five-times Golden Demon Winning Dave will be on hand to answer your questions and whether you bring a mantic mini from home or pick one up on the day and take it over to them, they’ll be able offer some pro-tips in getting the best finish on your figures!
Not only this but they will also be judging the inaugural Mantic Painting Competition. There will be three categories for the show, and we’re working on an online category (which we’ve got a few plans for which we’re just finialising!) for any of you who cannot attend. For full details on the painting competition, click here.
And if promises of the linked Kings of War and Dwarf King’s Hold game, painting competition and Alessio, Jake and Golem’s attendance isn’t enough, we’re still got even more to announce, so make sure you are signed up to the newsletter. Of course, you could just attend to find out what all the fuss is over Warpath… but make sure you’ve booked your tickets!
It sounds like it's going to be a great day! It's at a different location than before. Can't wait for the painting competition!
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:BoW have announced the Alpha testing will be starting soon.
It will be in the "Backstage Pass" which is available for a monthly subscription. (£3.79)
ChocolateGork wrote:BALLS! I don't wanna and wont pay to beta test.
I hope the proposed rules get released somewhere.
It's actually just an Alpha test. The Beta will be open to the public come fall, at least according to Ronnie during last weeks Turn 8. This Alpha test is just a little reward to people who signed up for the BoW Backstage thing.
ChocolateGork wrote:BALLS! I don't wanna and wont pay to beta test.
I hope the proposed rules get released somewhere.
As I understand it, and stand to be corrected if not, this initial stage of testing will be done "Backstage"
However, the Beta Rules wiill be free like the KoW rules were.
ChocolateGork wrote:BALLS! I don't wanna and wont pay to beta test.
I hope the proposed rules get released somewhere.
As I understand it, and stand to be corrected if not, this initial stage of testing will be done "Backstage"
However, the Beta Rules wiill be free like the KoW rules were.
So fret ye not young Chocky!
Aye indeed; the Alpha rules are in the possession of Backstage members right now. They are remarkably thorough, but I need to digest them for a bit before I can say anything meaningful.
Stanley Rubric wrote:This Alpha test is just a little reward to people who signed up for the BoW Backstage thing.
Which raises the question: why? If the Turn 8 video is at all indicative of how Beasts of War operate, I know I wouldn't be giving them exclusive rights to make money off a ruleset I'm releasing for free.
well , there not a ruleset, these are alpha rules , and its 3.79 , as BoW said for a month less than a pint!
and from what I read on Matic and watching Turn8 they have a close working realtionship , the costs are for running the website and providing backstage.7
Mantic need the feedback, the publicity for as good as the product is they suffer from GW size , and they need to publicise there product.
Ineveitably BoW will not make money from a ruleset , thats Mantics purview, BoW have been chosen by Matic to be the channel for there Alpha testing , and from even what BoW have said Beta will be open.
The charge for a "Backstage Pass" is to help pay for new and better servers so that the archive of videos can be uploaded for everyone to access, after Youtube went on a wobble.
The Alpha testing is a very juicy carrot to induce people to sign up and get some funding.
Not liking what I'm hearing so far. Looks like it'll be a high model count game where you roll a ton of dice while your opponent stands there and waits for your turn to be over.
frozenwastes wrote:Not liking what I'm hearing so far. Looks like it'll be a high model count game where you roll a ton of dice while your opponent stands there and waits for your turn to be over.
Le sigh.
But thats like implying GW wouldnt want us to have high model count armies (*cough horde units ) cough.
only thing is its stupidly expensive.
I'm looking forward to warpath. Hopefully it will be good a true competitor to 40k might make Gamesworkshop come to their senses.
@Lunahound
I love elves and I have 5 elf armies counting the Space variety and even my chosen nickname is because I like elves and I really don't like the Mantic elves they like anorexic and don't look good next to GW elves at all. I bought a few to add spear elves for 8th edition but well they don't fit well next to GW elves and I don't like the look.
I do like their undead though. I might be picking up more of those for my Vampires to replace the cheese zombies that are simply hands coming out of the ground I cast because I didn't feel like buying tons of gw.
to 
)
) to the designer's themselves (Alessio et al). They have set up a monthly subcriber section 'Backstage' so that they can afford to move to better servers and act as a hub for the gaming community outside of 
it's clearly a question of taste, by all means, a person can state clearly that they either like or dislike them, but to drag the debate on and on like this is pointless.....unless you are trying to convince others to change their mind....I shall mention no names here. 
