Durza wrote:Do leopards purr when they're wet?

I guess.

It makes him and the Space Wolves impossible to take seriously.

"They voiced their assent with a wet-leopard growl"

The legendary line that started it all.

Leman has been trolled hard by whoever that was.

Dan Abnett?

I guess so.

Dan Abnett said it, it must be canon.

Cannon, but silly

Fiah the mortars! Let no gun remain silent, for Dan Abnett has this day called for the silly cannon barrage!


caNon. Unless you're planning to fire those books at people.

Lol, sorry. Studying medieval england does that to you

Durza wrote:Dan Abnett said it, it must be canon.

I'm going with it because it's the funniest fething thing I've ever read in Black Library.

+1 to that, except for maybe Jurgen and the marshmellows

Magnus the super psyker. Plus the thousand sons pre hersy paint scheme is awesome

Red and gold right?

TheAngrySquig wrote:Red and gold right?

Red and AWESOME XD

I kid

I liked Angron and the world eaters pre-heresy. I found it funny that their armour colours were white

Void__Dragon wrote:The man's voice is described as a "wet-leoprard pur".

I gak you not.

Please tell me that the wording is 'liquid' and not 'wet'. One works, with bonus points for alliteration, the other is just derp.

Angron, all the way. Forget righteous, keep the anger! And as an added bonus, bloodstains really stand out on that white-blue livery.

Their armour is actually still white and blue under all that blood.

Ran wrote:Angron, all the way. Forget righteous, keep the anger! And as an added bonus, bloodstains really stand out on that white-blue livery.

Welcome to Dakka, now as you were saying BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES

daveNYC wrote:Please tell me that the wording is 'liquid' and not 'wet'. One works, with bonus points for alliteration, the other is just derp.

The word is "wet".

In fact, every Space Wolf makes a "wet-leopard" sound in Prospero Burns, usually a "wet-leopard growl".

Durza wrote:Their armour is actually still white and blue under all that blood.

Which makes it even more awesome!!!

Durza wrote:Their armour is actually still white and blue under all that blood.

TO ANGRY FOR PAINT, LETS JUST HIT IT WITH AN AXE UNTIL IT CHANGES COLOR!

With this thread being pretty much dead, I'm going to call it with Sanguinius winning, followed by Alpharius, then Kurze. If I had it my way it would have been Sanguinius, Kurze, Russ

Why do loads of people like Sanguinius?

Because he's a really noble, nice, charismatic guy. And he's one of like four Primarchs that isn't a total dick

BLOODCLAWallday wrote:LEMAN RUSS! SPACE VIKINGS! Oh, seriously though, how do you pronounce Roboute Guillman?

If the Space Marine game is anything to go by:
Row-boot - Gwill-iman

I'm actually a bit surprised by how few people like Khan. I get that he's not mentioned a whole lot, but neither is Vulkan, and he got almost 4x the votes

Man everyone digs on Russ.
Leave Leman ALONE!!! HES JUST TRYING TO LIVE HIS LIFE!!!

Ok but seriously, what was abnett thinking with the wet leapord growl thing? Thats fething poor for a kickass werewolf. And also he got persuaded to attack Magnus by THE WARMASTER. Who didn't listen to the warmaster at the time? I mean come on, horus is known for his charisma as a primarch and leader, so i do not believe it to be Russ fault. I mean look at all the followers Horus managed to persuade to his cause willingly or unwillingly...
And Russ fight with Magnus? So what. Considering he was fighting the second greatest Psyker in the galaxy, im not surprised he took a beating. Anyone would. If Magnus was fighting one on one no Psychic powers alowed, im pretty sure Russ would rip him to shreds. Again. Over his knee.

The wet leopard thing is bad. And I agree that Russ would wreck almost every other Primarch in a fair fight. No psychic eldar trickery

RAVEN 97 wrote:Why do loads of people like Sanguinius?

Because everything that mentions him says he's nice and noble, and he hasn't yet had any books revealing he's a jerkass, like what happened to the Emperor, Russ, the Lion...

TheAngrySquig wrote:The wet leopard thing is bad. And I agree that Russ would wreck almost every other Primarch in a fair fight. No psychic eldar trickery

You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? I think ADB had it right when he said that the Primarchs are all equal to each other in battle. Not equal in every given situation, but there is no one primarch that is head and shoulders above the rest. The fight in Savage Weapons is a good example.

The Primarchs with the most votes are the ones that are the most loyal to the Emperor and Humanity...

Awesome how that worked out!

daveNYC wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:The wet leopard thing is bad. And I agree that Russ would wreck almost every other Primarch in a fair fight. No psychic eldar trickery

You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? I think ADB had it right when he said that the Primarchs are all equal to each other in battle. Not equal in every given situation, but there is no one primarch that is head and shoulders above the rest. The fight in Savage Weapons is a good example.

How is Savage Weapons a good example? KK is about to choke Lion to death, but that guy stabs him in the back

TheAngrySquig wrote:
How is Savage Weapons a good example? KK is about to choke Lion to death, but that guy stabs him in the back

First because the Lion is a better tactician.

Secondly because the Lion was winning until Curze started the brawling aspect of the fight (i.e. the Lion is better in the 'duel' style the fight started with, Curze in a brawl).

Thirdly because the Lion's death was still not assured by that point.

Wow Alpharius/Omegon is more popular then I thought.

At least Sanguinius is top!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:
How is Savage Weapons a good example? KK is about to choke Lion to death, but that guy stabs him in the back

First because the Lion is a better tactician.

Secondly because the Lion was winning until Curze started the brawling aspect of the fight (i.e. the Lion is better in the 'duel' style the fight started with, Curze in a brawl).

Thirdly because the Lion's death was still not assured by that point.

Ok, fair points. In barfight style combat, I would say Kurze, Russ, or Angron would win


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Remulus wrote: Wow Alpharius/Omegon is more popular then I thought.

At least Sanguinius is top!

I was just as surprised by that as you, and made happy by Sanguinius at the top

I've always had a lotta love for Perturabo. I think I can relate to him the most - cold/logical, tends to shy away from social contact, grasp of technology, works harder than everyone else but gets utterly overlooked. Perts and his Iron Warriors are hardcore. I certainly wouldn't say he was the strongest or best in a one-on-one fight, but he's a tactical genius, and I just like the fella.

Perturabo is pretty handy in a fight iirc. But anyways, yeah hes another favorite of mine

Fulgrim, because he rapidly goes from a noble, beloved hero to a decadent wastrel, a truly tragic loss for the Imperium. A good reminder as to why chaos is evil and a textbook example of why religious intolerance and xenophobia exsists in the imperium now.

Perturabo is up there for mainly the same reason, he is a hero who had to much gak and gave up his faith in the emporer

Almost no one voted for lorgor. Our magnificent and omnipotent primarch, blatantly ignored.

Because he wore a dress

TheAngrySquig wrote:Because he wore a dress

Where?

First Heretic, it doesn't portray him well

Trolol he glows gold

Hes whiny in it though

And keeping in time with my milestone posts, I'll spend 1500 making fun of Lorgar. He was the second in everything, and gets completely overlooked because of it. Second best tactics, second shinyest, second biggest legion. The glowing gold primarch takes the silver

Pretty much all of the Primarchs are either boring and stupidly serious (Dorn), or tools (Fulgrim).

So Sanguinus get's my vote. Though, Angron is so damn entertaining. He's like a parody of a character.

Also lol @ Rowboat Girlyman in the poll. No love for the man in blue.

Leman Russ's attitude of ' No-one's gonna tell me what to do with my legion is quite funny'

He's also very loyal and very nails, so this makes him appealling to I suppose.

I think Ahriman sums him up when he meets him for the first time.
He compares his presence to that of Magnus and where Magnus is Calm and Soothing, Leman Russ is Powerful, Hard and Aggresive, but Controlled.

I also think the story of how the Emperor first meets him is quite funny too.


I also like the fact that other than the Lion and No-one else has knocked him out.

I am completly biased in this poll, however I also like Vulcan, Ferrus Mannus, Corax and Angron




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BlaxicanX wrote:Also lol @ Rowboat Girlyman in the poll. No love for the man in blue.

Rowboat Girlyman...lolololol, stop, it's hurting now, tickles me everytime someone writes it

The person who started this poll is unfortunately the most biased I am a Sanguinius fanboy, so I am so happy that hes been in the lead for almost the entire poll

Mortarion until he got pissy at the Emperor about his murderous unrepentant uncaring necromancer "daddy" being killed over his disgusting behaviors, and never grew to accept that it was necessary to save the planet and all its denizens... constantly brooding and whining over it.

Had so much potential, but then like most of the CSM primarchs failed utterly-- a great concept, but poor execution, making his later turn to chaos far less tragic than it should have been.

I thought Mortarion got pissy when he saw that the emperor did something he couldnt

Mortarion got pissy when mere humans were put in charge instead of primarchs.

Mine used to be the Lion, but after reading Fulgrim where he and Ferrus Manus have that faight and he breaks the Fireblade, I think it's Manus.
Vulkan is cool too.


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TheAngrySquig wrote:Because he wore a dress

Fulgrim makes Fulgrim seem a little... well.. gay.

I've always like Konrad Curze alot. Really brutal but not necessarily a bad guy. Kinda reminded me off the Punisher, plus he dealt with his death well, and that gets props.

While Mortarion and Russ are awesome, I would have to say Dorn would be my favorite pre-heresy. I love the Fists and Templars, so what I would do is run Dorn as a terminator captain or Lysander, and use a captain with relic blade and some sort of shield as Sigismund, or use the EC model for him.

I do like Magnus the most but that might because I enjoyed the book, A Thousands Sons. Sure he was arrogant, had a ego the size of the planet and then let his sons die while he was being emo but he created a very impressive army, a legion of Warrior Scholars which could of lead the IoM out the dark ages.

Speaking of books, when is sanguinius getting his?

TheAngrySquig wrote:Speaking of books, when is sanguinius getting his?

YEAAAAHHHHH when's he getting his??? I still waiting to see a preheresy Curze, Mortarion, well basically i'm waiting for a lot of pre-heresy primarch novels

Yeah, every primarch gets one right?

Most of them seem to have detailed the fall of traitor primarchs or made the loyalists seem like jerks. There's not going to be a novel about pre Heresy Angron, for example, even if it could be interesting if handled right.

So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Sanguinius will be there at least once. I'd imagine that if the Siege of Terra is told from the Imperial POV, a lot of it will be through his eyes before switching to Horus for the final battle.

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Who cares about Sanguinius? When are we getting the Roboute Guilliman trilogy and prequel novels?!

DoctorZombie wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Who cares about Sanguinius? When are we getting the Roboute Guilliman trilogy and prequel novels?!

Are you trolling for smurfs?

I think i need my primarch fix be it Roboute fighting off Word Bearers or Sanguinius on Terra, or even Mortarion when he went all pussy (pronounced PUS - y)

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Sanguinius is indeed getting a Horus Heresy book. Observe:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Where-angels-fear.html

Fear not, my Angelically Bloody friends, the Winged One shall be here before the year is out

el_groovatore wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Sanguinius is indeed getting a Horus Heresy book. Observe:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Where-angels-fear.html

Fear not, my Angelically Bloody friends, the Winged One shall be here before the year is out

Lucky us.. we can watch him glisten in the sun and run off to be a martyr.. sweet deal. lol

Now we just need everyone else

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Who cares about Sanguinius? When are we getting the Roboute Guilliman trilogy and prequel novels?!

Are you trolling for smurfs?

I think i need my primarch fix be it Roboute fighting off Word Bearers or Sanguinius on Terra, or even Mortarion when he went all pussy (pronounced PUS - y)

Its my duty to my Chapter
They are the posterboys, so it's only natural they get the most books!

el_groovatore wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So they are only making traitor books? No Sanguinius?

Sanguinius is indeed getting a Horus Heresy book. Observe:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Where-angels-fear.html

Fear not, my Angelically Bloody friends, the Winged One shall be here before the year is out

You don't even know how happy this made me, thank you so much

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-primarchs.html

Apparently there's more!!! 2 traitors and 2 loyalists!

Does Fulgrim really need another book? He already had Fulgrim, which was wierd as all hell, and a bit in some of the other books, so I think he's been done enough

its probably debatable if he actually counts as a primarch or not but im gonna go with secret answer #19. Arik Taranis. +1 internets to anyone who knws who he is without looking at the wiki. one of the main reasons i consider him the best is that he's the only space marine "primarch" to escape the emperors wrath and is the only living primarch that is still CONFIRMED alive to this day. if i had to pick a definate primarch then i would have to go with horus or russ. horus, as anyone who has read the first 3 HH books will agree, is just, awsome..., as for russ, well, he's the demigod version of wolverine, and i dont care what anyone says, thats cool.

Alpharius and Dorn need a spot light hell even Vulkan or Corax need it more. Those four we have 0 clue of what the hell they did or who they are.

Nazgren wrote:its probably debatable if he actually counts as a primarch or not but im gonna go with secret answer #19. Arik Taranis. +1 internets to anyone who knws who he is without looking at the wiki. one of the main reasons i consider him the best is that he's the only space marine "primarch" to escape the emperors wrath and is the only living primarch that is still CONFIRMED alive to this day. if i had to pick a definate primarch then i would have to go with horus or russ. horus, as anyone who has read the first 3 HH books will agree, is just, awsome..., as for russ, well, he's the demigod version of wolverine, and i dont care what anyone says, thats cool.

#19 was found, 2 and 11 are the missing ones

TheAngrySquig wrote:Does Fulgrim really need another book? He already had Fulgrim, which was wierd as all hell, and a bit in some of the other books, so I think he's been done enough

Agreed. Fulgrim was enough Slaneesh-y shenanigans to last me a while.

Sanguinius is part of what drew me to the Blood Angels, so I vote for him. The awesome picture of Sanguinius in armor from his 1d4chan page is currently my desktop background. There's something really compelling about him as the most human, most humble, and most purely dedicated of the Primarchs. In a way, he was the most heroic, the most willing to sacrifice himself for his duty.

I also voted for Magnus, but for reasons that have already been outlined. I like his tragic fall, doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons, and failing in the end through no fault of his own.

Magnus the Red is the most lovable derp in the entire Imperium

Kurze.
He never really changed during the HH. His Legion was just killers then, and now.

I like Kurze because he isn't a Chaos Primarch, hes the only one that was a traitor for the sake of being a traitor

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-primarchs.html

Apparently there's more!!! 2 traitors and 2 loyalists!

I thought that was Pertuabo and Fulgrim on the cover for a second there. That would be a strange conversation...

That would get really awkward really fast

Horus before he went all darth vader like...

so difficult.. Although I would have to go with Mortarion or Dorn I think. But Vulkan, Russ and the Lion are also some favourites. Having said that I havnt read through any of the HH series yet due to lazyness so Im sure my opinions will change.

Manus. He fought people with a giant spanner.

Alpharius for me. He is like a total mysterious badass. Plus he has a twin so I guess they are technically 2 Primarchs?

From a gaming, and I guess more specifically modelling perspective, Alpha Legion would be cool. Especially if you play Apoc, then you could mix em with IG.

I'm a bit tempted to do pre heresy AL and make them all the exact same. Helmets, bodies, bolters, nothing different about any one of them. But quick question, if all the alpha legionnaires looked the same as their primarchs, were they all freakishly tall, or were Alpharius and Omegon really short?

TheAngrySquig wrote:I'm a bit tempted to do pre heresy AL and make them all the exact same. Helmets, bodies, bolters, nothing different about any one of them. But quick question, if all the alpha legionnaires looked the same as their primarchs, were they all freakishly tall, or were Alpharius and Omegon really short?

Yes, actually. The Primarchs were on the short side, which makes sense since they were both squished into a one person tube for a portion of their growth, and the members of the legion were on the tall side.

The Primarchs book looks good, Glad to see Manus get some screen time. Not interested at all in more about the Lion. I mean a central facet of his character is that he can't relate to people, between that and his brilliant beige personality there's not much driving my interest.

So I'm between Luna Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists for the ph army I'm starting after the dark eldar, I'm mainly deciding based off of the primarch because I like big flashy HQ's to lead my army. But i really can't make a decision, they're all so nice

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Nazgren wrote:its probably debatable if he actually counts as a primarch or not but im gonna go with secret answer #19. Arik Taranis. +1 internets to anyone who knws who he is without looking at the wiki. one of the main reasons i consider him the best is that he's the only space marine "primarch" to escape the emperors wrath and is the only living primarch that is still CONFIRMED alive to this day. if i had to pick a definate primarch then i would have to go with horus or russ. horus, as anyone who has read the first 3 HH books will agree, is just, awsome..., as for russ, well, he's the demigod version of wolverine, and i dont care what anyone says, thats cool.

#19 was found, 2 and 11 are the missing ones

i never said number 19 was missing, i dont even think there is a 19th primarch. if its me saying secret answer #19 your refering to then i mean the vote has 18 possible choices, so i took secret choice number 19, as a i like a primarch that was not on the list.

Nazgren wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Nazgren wrote:its probably debatable if he actually counts as a primarch or not but im gonna go with secret answer #19. Arik Taranis. +1 internets to anyone who knws who he is without looking at the wiki. one of the main reasons i consider him the best is that he's the only space marine "primarch" to escape the emperors wrath and is the only living primarch that is still CONFIRMED alive to this day. if i had to pick a definate primarch then i would have to go with horus or russ. horus, as anyone who has read the first 3 HH books will agree, is just, awsome..., as for russ, well, he's the demigod version of wolverine, and i dont care what anyone says, thats cool.

#19 was found, 2 and 11 are the missing ones

i never said number 19 was missing, i dont even think there is a 19th primarch. if its me saying secret answer #19 your refering to then i mean the vote has 18 possible choices, so i took secret choice number 19, as a i like a primarch that was not on the list.

Oh, I thought you were reffering to how there were 20 primarchs, but 2 are missing and saying that the 19th was one of the AWOL ones. I see what you mean now though

TheAngrySquig wrote:I'm a bit tempted to do pre heresy AL and make them all the exact same. Helmets, bodies, bolters, nothing different about any one of them. But quick question, if all the alpha legionnaires looked the same as their primarchs, were they all freakishly tall, or were Alpharius and Omegon really short?

Most of the legion was slightly smaller than them, but a few were tall enough to pass as them even under close scrutiny, like Ranko. On the battlefield, the few inches in height between them wasn't really noticed, and to normal humans it made very little difference when the primarchs weren't there- all Marines were on the 'ohh, big' side.

So they had like an honor guard of people that were identical?

Rowboat Girlyman, where do you come up with that stuff? It's like comedic fething gold! You should be on Letterman. Let me call HBO so you can do a standup special. The world must know of your genius.

ewww sanguinius

Surtur wrote:Rowboat Girlyman, where do you come up with that stuff? It's like comedic fething gold! You should be on Letterman. Let me call HBO so you can do a standup special. The world must know of your genius.

Haha, take 1d4chan to Letterman, it's their gold


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Redaxe13 wrote:ewww sanguinius

Whats wrong with Sanguinius? Hes the only primarch that isn't a tool, a douche, or an idiot

You just think that now. Wait till Matt Ward's HH book on him comes out.


...


They wouldn't actually let him, though, would they? Heh...

Sanguinius is just kind of boring, and it doesn't help EVERYONE plays Blood Angels. I also hate the BA's colors, probably just cuz so many people are like hurdur scab red + blood red = done.

Durza wrote:You just think that now. Wait till Matt Ward's HH book on him comes out.


...


They wouldn't actually let him, though, would they? Heh...

You don't think they would... Nah they like us too much... They wouldn't... Well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redaxe13 wrote:Sanguinius is just kind of boring, and it doesn't help EVERYONE plays Blood Angels. I also hate the BA's colors, probably just cuz so many people are like hurdur scab red + blood red = done.

I see what you mean, I don't like Blood Angels that much, but I like Sanguinius a lot. With the Blood Angels they just tried too much, they tried tragic heroes, vampires, and pretty boys at the same time and it didn't come out too well

Vulkan. I just finished the Tome of Fire Trilogy and i loved it. And because Vulkan He'stan is my favorite SM model

I'm going to start pre-heresy Salamanders soon, it will be legendary

Any chance I can get some sources on Vulkan? All I got from here was that he and Ferrus were totally buff and he flipped tanks with out even thinking about it.

Also in before bumping a dead thread :S
Thanks guys.

Sanguinos

Langston128 wrote:Sanguinos

Good call


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A-Hivemind wrote:Any chance I can get some sources on Vulkan? All I got from here was that he and Ferrus were totally buff and he flipped tanks with out even thinking about it.

Also in before bumping a dead thread :S
Thanks guys.

The only thing I can think of is the Age of Darkness short story where he goes Hulk mode and tosses tanks around with his teeth and other such shenannigans

TheAngrySquig wrote:

The only thing I can think of is the Age of Darkness short story where he goes Hulk mode and tosses tanks around with his teeth and other such shenannigans

Thanks Squig. Also, your Pre-Heresy Sallies army idea, should be pretty cool. I've just decided to start a Sallies army up too. Post-heresy though.

Anyway back to the topic, what is the general opinion on the Horus Heresy book series?

Sanguinius=twilight sparkle
Girlyman= fail
Dorn= wishes he was Perturbo
Most the loyalist primarchs were fails..

Either Vulkan or Leman Russ. Either space blacksmith or space viking.

A-Hivemind wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

The only thing I can think of is the Age of Darkness short story where he goes Hulk mode and tosses tanks around with his teeth and other such shenannigans

Thanks Squig. Also, your Pre-Heresy Sallies army idea, should be pretty cool. I've just decided to start a Sallies army up too. Post-heresy though.

Anyway back to the topic, what is the general opinion on the Horus Heresy book series?

Thank you, i hope you like them when I do start. And almost all of the ones I have read have been fantastic, there are a few short stories in a few of the collections, but other than that I liked them. Except Fulgrim, that one was just weird as all hell. If your looking for a good one to start with I would say Nemesis. It shows the overall plot very well and has an excellent sub plot of its own. Unless you're a fan of a particular legion, then you should start with that legions book/books if they have any yet

Aye. Fulgrim was a rather...odd novel.
Anyone reading will know the scene I'm referring to.
Yes, it's THAT one.
With the ambassador.
And the painting.

Out of context, that sounds horrifically disturbing.
The frightening thing is that it's much worse IN context.

Gotta be my man Mortarion!

Crystal Geyser wrote:Aye. Fulgrim was a rather...odd novel.
Anyone reading will know the scene I'm referring to.
Yes, it's THAT one.
With the ambassador.
And the painting.

Out of context, that sounds horrifically disturbing.
The frightening thing is that it's much worse IN context.

Only with Fulgrim

Perturabo: He is my favourite, as anybody who turns planets and star systems into fotresses and makes citadels that hangs of of the ceiling of a fething massive cave can truly only be a real boss. I also like the idea that he built his daemon world to look like his home planet, but in steel. Hows that for nostalgia.... But pre-heresy wise, I feel sorry for him, as the unloved child is a role I play frequently....

Ferrus Manus: Man man man, manly man man man etc etc. I liked it that he led his legion on a hell-for-leather charge into the ranks of the traitors at Isstvaan to help the other loyalists out. But, I think his incredible manliness was his downfall, as somebody that powerful always gets smacked down as the script demands.

Vulkan: DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS aside, I think that VUlkan making sure every member of his legion had the technological aptitude of a techmarine truly awesome.

Dorn: "Liking the Palace gate?"
"'Naw, but wouldn't it look cooler if it was covered in adamantium and guns?"

Kurze: Kurze. Need I say more?

Bahahahahahahahah, dorn with the adamantium and guns, hahahahaha

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Thank you, i hope you like them when I do start. And almost all of the ones I have read have been fantastic, there are a few short stories in a few of the collections, but other than that I liked them. Except Fulgrim, that one was just weird as all hell. If your looking for a good one to start with I would say Nemesis. It shows the overall plot very well and has an excellent sub plot of its own. Unless you're a fan of a particular legion, then you should start with that legions book/books if they have any yet

I went ahead and read Age of Darkness.
I really enjoyed that book. Thanks for the heads up on that one. I particularly enjoyed the story about the Ultramarine and the Salamander with the artificer. I hadn't read much about the history of the Sallies, past the little tid bits in the SM codex and the Armageddon codex, about how they value human live equally as their own. The salamander's sacrifice (I can't remember his name, nor have the book nearby) to save the questioner dude, really struck chords in me.

Was truly a noble sacrifice.

That was one of my favorites too, I didn't like the Alpha Legion one, but I think that was the only one in that book

Luna Wolves, Sons of Horus, call them what you want but they were awesome. Russ is the greatest though

Crystal Geyser wrote:Aye. Fulgrim was a rather...odd novel.
Anyone reading will know the scene I'm referring to.
Yes, it's THAT one.
With the ambassador.
And the painting.

Out of context, that sounds horrifically disturbing.
The frightening thing is that it's much worse IN context.

It was certainly a good depiction of his fall.

And excessively creepy to boot

I love tradition. I did it at 1000, I did it at 1500, and I'm doing it at 2000. This post is to commemorate me and my not liking Lorgar. He is a gigantic daemonic bitch, who spends all his time locked up in a tower, wearing a dress

Draigo wrote:Sanguinius=twilight sparkle

So you like Sanguinius the most?

Who doesn't like Sanguinius the most?

TheAngrySquig wrote:I love tradition. I did it at 1000, I did it at 1500, and I'm doing it at 2000. This post is to commemorate me and my not liking Lorgar. He is a gigantic daemonic bitch, who spends all his time locked up in a tower, wearing a dress

Quoted into my signature for posterity.

Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain? Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character. Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

I agree on the Lorgar thing. He was the instigator of the entire Heresy, if he had been treated better by the Emperor, maybe the universe would be a happier place. Though Russ can't be a psyker. He uses the life of Fenris, which is a completely different thing la la la not listening.

I will have to dispute Fulgrim on a technicality though. He only killed one primarch, the daemon in his body killed the other. Or the daemon killed both depending on how you look at it.

Redaxe13 wrote:Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain?
He wouldn't thats why I don't like him, he caused the heresy that is responsible for killing Sanguinius.
Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character.
Sanguinius is flawless but he isn't boring. He fought Horus, knowing he would die, but needed to to make sure The Emperor would see Horus was all the way gone.
Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!
Russ is a Space Viking, hes a badass plain and simple

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain?
He wouldn't thats why I don't like him, he caused the heresy that is responsible for killing Sanguinius.
Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character.
Sanguinius is flawless but he isn't boring. He fought Horus, knowing he would die, but needed to to make sure The Emperor would see Horus was all the way gone.
Except that his death just launched the Emperor towards his own, battling with a subconscious handicap against a being blessed by the four gods.
Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!
Russ is a Space Viking, hes a badass plain and simple
Though kind of a jerk wherever psykers and Rune Priests are involved.

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

Durza wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain?
He wouldn't thats why I don't like him, he caused the heresy that is responsible for killing Sanguinius.
Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character.
Sanguinius is flawless but he isn't boring. He fought Horus, knowing he would die, but needed to to make sure The Emperor would see Horus was all the way gone.
Except that his death just launched the Emperor towards his own, battling with a subconscious handicap against a being blessed by the four gods.
No Sanguinius didn't give him the handicap, he had the handicap until he saw Sanguinius die and realized that Horus couldn't be saved
Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!
Russ is a Space Viking, hes a badass plain and simple
Though kind of a jerk wherever psykers and Rune Priests are involved.
That I'll agree with you on that

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

He had the handicap until he saw Horus flay a man alive. Seeing Sanguinius just made the Emperor fight.

Fair enough, I still don't think that Sanguinius gave him the disadvantage though

No, he didn't. I must have phrased it badly. I meant that Sanguinius' death made the Emperor fight even though he had a weakness because of his love for Horus.

No, the Emperor would have fought no matter what, he basically had to. He knew horus was bad, he just couldn't bring himself to realize he was hopelessly lost

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Durza wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain?
He wouldn't thats why I don't like him, he caused the heresy that is responsible for killing Sanguinius.
Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character.
Sanguinius is flawless but he isn't boring. He fought Horus, knowing he would die, but needed to to make sure The Emperor would see Horus was all the way gone.
Except that his death just launched the Emperor towards his own, battling with a subconscious handicap against a being blessed by the four gods.
No Sanguinius didn't give him the handicap, he had the handicap until he saw Sanguinius die and realized that Horus couldn't be saved
Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!
Russ is a Space Viking, hes a badass plain and simple
Though kind of a jerk wherever psykers and Rune Priests are involved.
That I'll agree with you on that
Even though it doesn't mean he is not badass. Prosaic or ignorant concerning phsychic abilities, but stll a big badass, oh yeah...

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

Raulmichile wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Durza wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:Lorgars a boss... :/ Without Lorgar how would my beloved Tzeentch get into Horus's brain?
He wouldn't thats why I don't like him, he caused the heresy that is responsible for killing Sanguinius.
Sanguinius is flawless, aka the epitome of a boring and static character.
Sanguinius is flawless but he isn't boring. He fought Horus, knowing he would die, but needed to to make sure The Emperor would see Horus was all the way gone.
Except that his death just launched the Emperor towards his own, battling with a subconscious handicap against a being blessed by the four gods.
No Sanguinius didn't give him the handicap, he had the handicap until he saw Sanguinius die and realized that Horus couldn't be saved
Russ is also pretty lame, due to the famous I'm not the best at anything but I'm strategic and stuff so I'm apparently better than everyone at everything deal. People even think Russ would beat Angron in a close quarters fight. Just no... Soon I'm expecting Russ to be a more powerful psyker than Magnus. Russ will then surpass Fulgrim in prettiness. Oh yes, I'm sick of space wolves by the way!
Russ is a Space Viking, hes a badass plain and simple
Though kind of a jerk wherever psykers and Rune Priests are involved.
That I'll agree with you on that
Even though it doesn't mean he is not badass. Prosaic or ignorant concerning phsychic abilities, but stll a big badass, oh yeah...
Thanks a lot, now I have the image of Russ pulling a kool aid man and busting through a wall screaming OH YEAH!

The chaos primarchs are generally more interesting due to the flaws in their personalities.

My top three after thinking about it are, Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar. Fulgrim is just fabulous, and kills more primarchs than anyone else. Haters gonna hate

Spartacus, er Angron, fighting to be free.

Enough said.

Mickey Mouse in Fantasia, Er Magnus, fighting for [sparkles]maaaagic[\sparkles]



Enough said

Just read the Initial HH Novels and found Pre-Heresy Horus extremely likeable compared to the other primarchs

Horus is pretty cool in everything I've read. Bit OT, but does anyone know any books with pre heresy World Eaters?

Magnus: He foresaw everything happening through his psychic abilities, and that is just plain intriguing. because if he is reflective of the emperors capabilities, did the emperor not know then that this heresy was possibly a threat? and if so, is it not also feasible that the emperor planned for events to happen as they did, in the least to a lesser degree?

DrexMartell wrote:Magnus: He foresaw everything happening through his psychic abilities, and that is just plain intriguing. because if he is reflective of the emperors capabilities, did the emperor not know then that this heresy was possibly a threat? and if so, is it not also feasible that the emperor planned for events to happen as they did, in the least to a lesser degree?

I think the Emperor Figured that if they didn't know about chaos, they couldnt fall to it. I think the emperor could see the heresy as a possible future, along with other simmilar choices. Maybe that's why he wanted to keep them all in the dark

TheAngrySquig wrote:Horus is pretty cool in everything I've read. Bit OT, but does anyone know any books with pre heresy World Eaters?

Tales of Heresy has a World Eaters short (After De...... something something)

You can always check the Black Library site. I don't think there are many pre-heresy world eater stories

After De'Shea or something right? I thought that was when they were all khornate and rabblerabble?

TheAngrySquig wrote:After De'Shea or something right? I thought that was when they were all khornate and rabblerabble?

Nope not yet!

It's when they find Angron.

Oh okay then I'll check it out, thanks for the tip

Durza wrote:
It was certainly a good depiction of his fall.

The imagery used in the novel was certainly a great presentation of the horrors of Chaos (and Slaanesh in particular), but IMO his fall made him look like a tool. He comes across as pompous and insecure.

What a douche.

I have not read a whole lot about them but , I put Ferrus Manus as my fav. Horus would come in second. Then Mortarion and Fulgrim. Not sure why those last two, just something about them I found intresting.

What about Manus makes him your favorite? He always seemed a bit bland to me.

Gotta go with Russ. He's often labeled a brute and a bully, but for pete's sake this is the 31st Millennium we're talkin bout here. And yeah, Vikings are always awesome. Not to mention Russ fought with his heart, AND his brains. Most of these guys didn't really have a heart, and Russ' heart was so strong that it carries on in the rest of the Space Wolves even 10,000 years later. You'd be hard pressed to find a chapter more willing to stand up to the Inquisition, or any one, they do whats right, and that's not always the "Imperial" thing to do.

He's the anti Fulgrim, he thinks with his upstairs head

TheAngrySquig wrote:What about Manus makes him your favorite? He always seemed a bit bland to me.

I can not put my finger on it really. He just interests me. Everything I read I just want to learn more. I do not see him as bland in the lest, many of the others I find very bland. It is simply a matter of taste I would guess.

I do kinda see where your coming from, but in general I find him to be overdone in the manly man of mantopia catergory

Rorik The Red wrote:Gotta go with Russ. He's often labeled a brute and a bully, but for pete's sake this is the 31st Millennium we're talkin bout here. And yeah, Vikings are always awesome. Not to mention Russ fought with his heart, AND his brains. Most of these guys didn't really have a heart, and Russ' heart was so strong that it carries on in the rest of the Space Wolves even 10,000 years later. You'd be hard pressed to find a chapter more willing to stand up to the Inquisition, or any one, they do whats right, and that's not always the "Imperial" thing to do.

Try reading sone of the pre-heresy stuff about them, back when Russ was actually in command about them.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I do kinda see where your coming from, but in general I find him to be overdone in the manly man of mantopia catergory

I have only been exposed to him in one book and the little research online. I agree the manly man thing gets over the top(but so does 40k).

Hunterindarkness wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I do kinda see where your coming from, but in general I find him to be overdone in the manly man of mantopia catergory

I have only been exposed to him in one book and the little research online. I agree the manly man thing gets over the top(but so does 40k).

Yeah, I like the OTTness of it all, adds character somehow

Ferrus Manus if fething amazing, he's manly as all hell.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I love tradition. I did it at 1000, I did it at 1500, and I'm doing it at 2000. This post is to commemorate me and my not liking Lorgar. He is a gigantic daemonic bitch, who spends all his time locked up in a tower, wearing a dress

List of Lorgar's Accomplishments as of Aurelian:
1. Physically dominating Daemon Fulgrim.
2. Psychically toying with a daemon (Daemon Fulgrim) that could telepathically control and dominate an entire planet's species, and corrupt an entire Legion.
3. Psychically commanding Horus, who was unable to resist his mental commands.
4. Being hands-down the most powerful Primarch in terms of psychic potential who is not a big red cyclops (Magnus recognises his psychic growth, though the moment he gets tired of Lorgar's internet tough guy act, he dominates him mentally despite the fact that Magnus's power was strained from projecting an avatar from the other side of the galaxy).
5. Beating An'ggrath one on one.
6. According to prophecy, if he chooses to attack the Ultramarines with his Legion, he is destined to kill Guilliman in single combat.
7. And, of course, effectively starting the Horus Heresy.

Lorgar used to be sort of a bitch. Not anymore.

Rorik The Red wrote:Gotta go with Russ. He's often labeled a brute and a bully, but for pete's sake this is the 31st Millennium we're talkin bout here. And yeah, Vikings are always awesome. Not to mention Russ fought with his heart, AND his brains. Most of these guys didn't really have a heart, and Russ' heart was so strong that it carries on in the rest of the Space Wolves even 10,000 years later. You'd be hard pressed to find a chapter more willing to stand up to the Inquisition, or any one, they do whats right, and that's not always the "Imperial" thing to do.

Russ and the Space Wolves were definitely not nice guys during the time of the Heresy. In fact, they enforced an image of "Not nice guys". It was their thing.

Also, the Salamanders are far more "good" so to speak than the Space Wolves, who really only give a damn about fellow human warriors, they don't care about civilians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:The imagery used in the novel was certainly a great presentation of the horrors of Chaos (and Slaanesh in particular), but IMO his fall made him look like a tool. He comes across as pompous and insecure.

Spoiler:

When he suddenly hears a voice in his head telling him stuff that's completely contrary to anything he'd thought before, he just assumes that this must be some genius insight that has manifested as part of his perfection (Huh, I guess I've actually hated my closest brother and best friend all along), and two weeks later he's like,"Yeah! Poop paintings rule!"

Then when he finally stops for a moment and thinks about what he's doing, his reaction is one of "Oh noes! I kill myself now!"

What a douche.

I think that was sort of the point, Fulgrim could not even conceive that a "perfect" being like him might be being influenced by something outside of himself.

So, yeah, he's a total douche.

Void__Dragon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I love tradition. I did it at 1000, I did it at 1500, and I'm doing it at 2000. This post is to commemorate me and my not liking Lorgar. He is a gigantic daemonic bitch, who spends all his time locked up in a tower, wearing a dress

7. And, of course, effectively starting the Horus Heresy.

That right there is the worst part about him. Everyone says that he started the whole damn thing, and he had a part, but real credit to Erebus. Anyway, the Emperor had a good thing going with the Great Crusade if Lorgar had of nutted up and took his whoopin like a man, then humanity would rule the stars and maybe even be pushed into new galaxies. He stemmed the flow of human domination, which IMO makes him a douche. I'll admit he isn't that much of a bitch after Monarchia, but he's still a douche

TheAngrySquig wrote:That right there is the worst part about him. Everyone says that he started the whole damn thing, and he had a part, but real credit to Erebus. Anyway, the Emperor had a good thing going with the Great Crusade if Lorgar had of nutted up and took his whoopin like a man, then humanity would rule the stars and maybe even be pushed into new galaxies. He stemmed the flow of human domination, which IMO makes him a douche. I'll admit he isn't that much of a bitch after Monarchia, but he's still a douche

He sent Erebus to go manipulate Horus.

You could argue however that Kor Phaeron started the Heresy. Lorgar however was necessary to do this because nobody likes Kor Phaeron.

The Emperor's handling of Monarchia was so hamfisted it is no surprised Lorgar rebelled.

Actually, feth Kor Phaeron. The Emperor started the Horus Heresy, it was as if he was begging some of the Primarchs to betray him. '

"Welp I need to arrest Magnus... Who to choose who to choose... Oh, I think I'll send Leman Russ, who openly hates Magnus and leads a Legion of superstitious Marines with a vendetta against psykers. This could not possibly go wrong."

"Well Angron doesn't want to leave his fellow gladiators to die... Well let me see, I could fight alongside them and easily crush their enemy with my own psychic abilities, but nah, I am gonna teleport him to my ship and make him watch his siblings die. This could not possibly have serious repercussions in the future."

Along with other gak I could mention, but I digress.

Lorgar is flawed, yeah, but what I am pointing out is that, as of Aurelian, Lorgar is certainly no "sissy". Hell, even in First Heretic, he went out to fight a battle he knew he would probably die in, just to save his sons. That is not the behavior of a sissy.

Yeah I'm not gonna argue that the Big E had a peanut brain when it came to dealing with problems, but if we're going with that it was the Old Ones that started the heresy.

The Old Ones didn't give the Necrontyr immortality which led to the Eldar fighting the Necrons, which led to the Eldar partying like hard bastards, which led to the creation of Slaanesh, which led Slaaneshi daemons, a Slaaneshi daemon corrupted Argel Tal and them, who cut the Gellar Fields in the Gene-labs, which led to the primarchs being scattered, which led to them developing different beliefs, which led to gak getting bad.

fething. Lizards.

It is true that the Old Ones and C'tan/Necrontyr did effectively create Chaos.

IIRC that bit of fluff has not been retconned.

Yeah the point I was making is that you can link almost any major pre human race or faction to the heresy

Corax, Kurze, Dorn - they're just awesome
Fulgrim - interesting story
Guiliman - like Calgar, but even bigger

I'm going to abstain from voting on this. I am only on the 5th book of the Horus Heresy. My opinion might have changed by the end of the series.

Favorites (in descending order)
1) Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
- out of all the Primarchs he inherited the most of his father's godlike psychic might
- apparently he was also very respectful of both Astartes and non-Astartes alike

2) Sanguinius
- what's there not to like?
- Horus may be Warmaster, but Sanguinius was the heir to the Imperial Throne - it's pretty much implied the Emperor wanted Sanguinius to remain in the Imperial Palace to become the new Emperor after His return from the Vengeful Spirit (since He already knew that upon His return, He'd only be good for keeping the Golden Throne under control, focusing the Astronomican, and soul-binding Astropaths)

3) Lion El'Jonson
- Knight
- he didn't care whether or not future generations questioned his loyalty in light of his failure to return to Terra during the Siege
- a noble and merciless warrior

4) Roboutte Guilliman
- not as ambitious or as talented a tactician/strategist as Horus, or as likable as Sanguinius, but he was probably the best leader/organizer/politician among the Primarchs
- say what you want, but this guy pulled the Imperium back together after the Horus Heresy - with the Emperor comatose, the Warmaster-turned-traitor dead, and the heir to the throne also dead, that's a lot of pressure

5) Vulkan
- down-to-earth guy
- good with his hands, none of the other Primarchs held ordinary Humans in such high regard as he did, a trait inherited by his genetic sons
- apart from Ferrus Manus, he was probably the strongest of the Primarchs

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Why is nobody on Dakka able to make a poll with just one choice per voter?

Tadashi wrote:Favorites (in descending order)
1) Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
Then why didn't he have as many friends? Magnus was deffinitely the smartest, but he wasn't incredibly charismatic.
- out of all the Primarchs he inherited the most of his father's godlike psychic might
Direct power yes, but they almost all got a piece
- apparently he was also very respectful of both Astartes and non-Astartes alike

2) Sanguinius
- what's there not to like?
- Horus may be Warmaster, but Sanguinius was the heir to the Imperial Throne - it's pretty much implied the Emperor wanted Sanguinius to remain in the Imperial Palace to become the new Emperor after His return from the Vengeful Spirit (since He already knew that upon His return, He'd only be good for keeping the Golden Throne under control, focusing the Astronomican, and soul-binding Astropaths)

3) Lion El'Jonson
- Knight
- he didn't care whether or not future generations questioned his loyalty in light of his failure to return to Terra during the Siege
I'm confused, you like him because he abandoned The Emperor when he was most needed to deal with his legions own problems?
- a noble and merciless warrior

4) Roboutte Guilliman
- not as ambitious or as talented a tactician/strategist as Horus, or as likable as Sanguinius, but he was probably the best leader/organizer/politician among the Primarchs
- say what you want, but this guy pulled the Imperium back together after the Horus Heresy - with the Emperor comatose, the Warmaster-turned-traitor dead, and the heir to the throne also dead, that's a lot of pressure

5) Vulkan
- down-to-earth guy
- good with his hands, none of the other Primarchs held ordinary Humans in such high regard as he did, a trait inherited by his genetic sons
- apart from Ferrus Manus, he was probably the strongest of the Primarchs

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.
Russ is a space werewolf viking. Where do you find a problem with this?

TheAngrySquig wrote:
I'm confused, you like him because he abandoned The Emperor when he was most needed to deal with his legions own problems?

That's not what happened. The Lion rushed towards Terra with Russ, but Russ made them secure Imperial planets under assault from the Traitors along the way. It was actually Russ who slowed them down to save loyal planets (with the Lion being more of a pragmatist). The Lion only found out about the split (or at least only acted on it) in his Legion after the Seige of Terra and he returned to Caliban (which isn't that strange when he'd need to resupply to continue the Scouring)
.

Sorry, the way he phrased it sounded like the Lion left Terra to deal, I got it mixed up, thats okay then

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Favorites (in descending order)
Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
Then why didn't he have as many friends? Magnus was deffinitely the smartest, but he wasn't incredibly charismatic.

Magnus was close to Lorgar...and on cordial terms with most of the Primarchs, even Sanguinius. The only ones who hated him were Dorn, Mortarion, and that dog, Russ. Magnus didn't like Horus though. And none of them were diplomatic...all of them could sway people, but they all tended to tell others what to do without saying why...none could sway people as much as the Emperor, Horus, and Magnus could.

Lion El'Jonson

- he didn't care whether or not future generations questioned his loyalty in light of his failure to return to Terra during the Siege
I'm confused, you like him because he abandoned The Emperor when he was most needed to deal with his legions own problems?

"Defending Terra means nothing of the rest of the Empire is ash."
- Primarch Lion El'Jonson to the Ninth Order, Savage Weapons

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.
Russ is a space werewolf viking. Where do you find a problem with this?

Simple. For someone living under the Imperial Truth, and tasked to embody it's ideals, Russ was anti-intellectual and superstitious. Since when did 'rune magic' not become warp based, like what Librarians do? It's like he's a foreshadowing of Imperial attitudes after the Horus Heresy.

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Favorites (in descending order)
Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
Then why didn't he have as many friends? Magnus was deffinitely the smartest, but he wasn't incredibly charismatic.

Magnus was close to Lorgar...and on cordial terms with most of the Primarchs, even Sanguinius. The only ones who hated him were Dorn, Mortarion, and that dog, Russ. Magnus didn't like Horus though. And none of them were diplomatic...all of them could sway people, but they all tended to tell others what to do without saying why...none could sway people as much as the Emperor, Horus, and Magnus could.

He had some friends yes, but not nearly as many as Horus. And everyone liked Sanguinius that isn't special

Lion El'Jonson

- he didn't care whether or not future generations questioned his loyalty in light of his failure to return to Terra during the Siege
I'm confused, you like him because he abandoned The Emperor when he was most needed to deal with his legions own problems?

"Defending Terra means nothing of the rest of the Empire is ash."
- Primarch Lion El'Jonson to the Ninth Order, Savage Weapons
Cleared elsewhere

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.
Russ is a space werewolf viking. Where do you find a problem with this?

Simple. For someone living under the Imperial Truth, and tasked to embody it's ideals, Russ was anti-intellectual and superstitious. Since when did 'rune magic' not become warp based, like what Librarians do? It's like he's a foreshadowing of Imperial attitudes after the Horus Heresy.

Well he wasn't anti-intellectual, his intellect was just not as bookish as Lorgar or Magnus. He knew more relevant things to his position, and he was shaped by his childhood on Fenris, where 'rune magic' is different from the Warp. If someone came up to you and told you one of your most base belief was wrong and proved themselves correct, wouldn't you retain some of your beliefs?

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Favorites (in descending order)
Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
Then why didn't he have as many friends? Magnus was deffinitely the smartest, but he wasn't incredibly charismatic.

Magnus was close to Lorgar...and on cordial terms with most of the Primarchs, even Sanguinius. The only ones who hated him were Dorn, Mortarion, and that dog, Russ. Magnus didn't like Horus though. And none of them were diplomatic...all of them could sway people, but they all tended to tell others what to do without saying why...none could sway people as much as the Emperor, Horus, and Magnus could.

He had some friends yes, but not nearly as many as Horus. And everyone liked Sanguinius that isn't special

A fair point...but I would also point out that none of the Primarchs on Nikaea could match Magnus arguments...at that least Magnus was on par (in terms of charisma) with most of them, and at most with Horus. But yes, not as many friends as the Lupercal.

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.
Russ is a space werewolf viking. Where do you find a problem with this?

Simple. For someone living under the Imperial Truth, and tasked to embody it's ideals, Russ was anti-intellectual and superstitious. Since when did 'rune magic' not become warp based, like what Librarians do? It's like he's a foreshadowing of Imperial attitudes after the Horus Heresy.
Well he wasn't anti-intellectual, his intellect was just not as bookish as Lorgar or Magnus. He knew more relevant things to his position, and he was shaped by his childhood on Fenris, where 'rune magic' is different from the Warp. If someone came up to you and told you one of your most base belief was wrong and proved themselves correct, wouldn't you retain some of your beliefs?

A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

Tadashi wrote:
A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

In other words.... they were exactly what the emperor wanted? Warriors?

Which was why he shut down Lorgar and demolished his city

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

In other words.... they were exactly what the emperor wanted? Warriors?

Which was why he shut down Lorgar and demolished his city

Which was also one of the few times Russ and Magnus agreed on anything; both believed it was 'too much'.

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

In other words.... they were exactly what the emperor wanted? Warriors?

Which was why he shut down Lorgar and demolished his city

Which was also one of the few times Russ and Magnus agreed on anything; both believed it was 'too much'.

I feel like this has been said way too many times but...... the emp was a douche

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

In other words.... they were exactly what the emperor wanted? Warriors?

Which was why he shut down Lorgar and demolished his city

Which was also one of the few times Russ and Magnus agreed on anything; both believed it was 'too much'.

I feel like this has been said way too many times but...... the emp was a douche

Not really...more undiplomatic. A cross between messiah and warrior, the Emperor was very charismatic such that He could sway the minds and wills of an entire species - and when you consider how fickle we Humans are that's saying something - but He had a tendency to tell people what to do and did things without telling anyone why. That was was His biggest mistake - if He told Lorgar the reason behind the Imperial Truth, things could have been different. If He told Magnus completely about the dangers of the Great Enemy, things could have also been different. If Horus had been told about the Emperor's long-term plan, things could also have been different. The list goes on. Thing is, charisma and diplomacy are different...none of the Primarchs were very diplomatic either, although they were all very charismatic, especially Lorgar, Magnus, and Horus, a trait they all inherited from their father.

Konrad Curze. He is called the Night Haunter. No come backs and no arguments. he.is.a.bro.

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Favorites (in descending order)
Magnus the Red
- he was the most intelligent of the Primarchs
- he was just as charismatic as Horus and his father, the Emperor
Then why didn't he have as many friends? Magnus was deffinitely the smartest, but he wasn't incredibly charismatic.

Magnus was close to Lorgar...and on cordial terms with most of the Primarchs, even Sanguinius. The only ones who hated him were Dorn, Mortarion, and that dog, Russ. Magnus didn't like Horus though. And none of them were diplomatic...all of them could sway people, but they all tended to tell others what to do without saying why...none could sway people as much as the Emperor, Horus, and Magnus could.

He had some friends yes, but not nearly as many as Horus. And everyone liked Sanguinius that isn't special

A fair point...but I would also point out that none of the Primarchs on Nikaea could match Magnus arguments...at that least Magnus was on par (in terms of charisma) with most of them, and at most with Horus. But yes, not as many friends as the Lupercal.
I don't deny he was a genius, I openly stated he was the smartest, but argumentative skill and Charisma are different

Hated (only one)
Leman Russ
- Russ was a rabid and ignorant dog...even Lorgar and Angron were better than him...Lion should have finished the off when he had the chance...I'm hoping Magnus has him rotting in a cell at the base of the Obsidian Tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers.
Russ is a space werewolf viking. Where do you find a problem with this?

Simple. For someone living under the Imperial Truth, and tasked to embody it's ideals, Russ was anti-intellectual and superstitious. Since when did 'rune magic' not become warp based, like what Librarians do? It's like he's a foreshadowing of Imperial attitudes after the Horus Heresy.
Well he wasn't anti-intellectual, his intellect was just not as bookish as Lorgar or Magnus. He knew more relevant things to his position, and he was shaped by his childhood on Fenris, where 'rune magic' is different from the Warp. If someone came up to you and told you one of your most base belief was wrong and proved themselves correct, wouldn't you retain some of your beliefs?

A fair point...but the Wolves were being hypocritical by claiming that their Librarians drew power not from the warp, but the spirit of their home world. Especially when you consider that their Chief Librarian pretended to be friends with Ahriman only to back stab him at Nikaea. And Russ was anti-intellectual; out of all the Primarchs, none equalled Russ' dislike of Remembrancers, and apparently considered scholarly pursuits (even non-heretical ones) as 'weak', a trait shared by his genetic sons to this day.

You have a point, but I still think that Fenrisian culture has more to do with their rune magic beliefs than actual ignorance. And Russ did dislike book learning for him and his warriors, but he recognized the importance of it

To sum it up:
1) Magnus is a genius compared to the other Primarchs, though his charisma wasn't as great as Horus (though greater than most)
2) Russ is superstitious and anti-intellectual, even by 40k standards, which is unusual considering he was supposed to be living up to the ideals of the Imperial Truth, which valued reason, logic, and scientific progress over faith and superstition.

By the end of Magnus's trial, through words alone, Magnus had swayed a very signifigant portion, IIRC most actually, of the spectators at Nikaea to seeing his point of view and joining his side. That takes charisma. Magnus was a very eloquent speaker, and very capable of convincing others to see his point of view. Magnus did not have as many friends due to his own relatively isolationist nature, as well as the fact that he was an open psyker and seeker of Warpcraft.

I would disagree with the Emperor being genuinely charismatic as well. The Emperor could "sway the minds and wills of an entire species" because he was the most powerful psychic in the history of the galaxy, and every human who was so much as in his presence suffered a massive heart attack and boner. Personally, the Emperor has never managed to convince me he is genuinely charismatic, in The Last Church while posing as a human, he could not convince or enthrall the old man with his words as all. In fact, he found him a total condescending ponce and on at least one occasion was tempted to strike him.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I would disagree with the Emperor being genuinely charismatic as well. The Emperor could "sway the minds and wills of an entire species" because he was the most powerful psychic in the history of the galaxy, and every human who was so much as in his presence suffered a massive heart attack and boner. Personally, the Emperor has never managed to convince me he is genuinely charismatic, in The Last Church while posing as a human, he could not convince or enthrall the old man with his words as all. In fact, he found him a total condescending ponce and on at least one occasion was tempted to strike him.

The Emperor was charismatic, but being charismatic only means you can sway people, not always get them on your side. In The Last Church on Terra, the old man had his faith shaken several times by the Emperor, and at the end believed the Emperor was right, but did not want to live in a world with no religion.

"I think you are right, but I want no part in it."
- The Last Church on Terra

He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

Still charisma in another form...

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

Still charisma in another form...

If I'm right, and I could well not be, I think that what Tadashi is trying to say is that, while the Emperor lacked common charisma and sympathy, he had a way with people. That may have been due to the fact that he was a godlike being of immense power, but still he was capable of convincing people

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

Still charisma in another form...

If I'm right, and I could well not be, I think that what Tadashi is trying to say is that, while the Emperor lacked common charisma and sympathy, he had a way with people. That may have been due to the fact that he was a godlike being of immense power, but still he was capable of convincing people

No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

pshhhhhh who needs charisma if you are....KONRAD CURZE!

It's more motivation that charisma really. Motivation is getting other people to do things you want. Perfect fit really.

It's like, if Denzel Washington* came into the room and told you to do something, by god you're going to do it.

*Insert man crush here

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

The thing with the Lion though was that he was basically raised in the wilds of caliban for most of his life, much like how konrad was on the streets by himself and learned his own form of justice. Likewise, the lion learned how to hide in the shadows and basically trust no one.

But I agree that the emperor had no real charisma. Charisma is like charms or oratory skills. The big E just radiated power, and people were affected by that. I'm hesitant to agree with you Tadashi when you say it's charisma in another form, as charisma IS defined as "a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people." One could argue that the emperor's psychic energy and power could be charisma, as it is literally a spiritual power....

The emperor had a presence, of that there is no doubt, but after that first meeting with people, and his sons, the fact that he could not hold onto them and have them follow his goals, seems more like someone who does not have charisma.....

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

The thing with the Lion though was that he was basically raised in the wilds of caliban for most of his life, much like how konrad was on the streets by himself and learned his own form of justice. Likewise, the lion learned how to hide in the shadows and basically trust no one.

But I agree that the emperor had no real charisma. Charisma is like charms or oratory skills. The big E just radiated power, and people were affected by that. I'm hesitant to agree with you Tadashi when you say it's charisma in another form, as charisma IS defined as "a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people." One could argue that the emperor's psychic energy and power could be charisma, as it is literally a spiritual power....

The emperor had a presence, of that there is no doubt, but after that first meeting with people, and his sons, the fact that he could not hold onto them and have them follow his goals, seems more like someone who does not have charisma.....

The thing with the Lion is that he, more than any other Primarch, cared about his homeworld. So he kept Calabanite culture throughout the years and as a result, doesnt mesh well with regular people

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Something not really relevant to what I'm replying to.

The thing with the Lion is that he, more than any other Primarch, cared about his homeworld. So he kept Calabanite culture throughout the years and as a result, doesnt mesh well with regular people

I completely disagree with that. The Lion abandoned his homeworld and everyone on it apart from the new recruits to his legion during the Crusade. He left almost everyone who knew him back when he was a great knight, not a the primarch of their legion to rot. If any primarch kept the culture of their homeworld, it was Russ, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus or Lorgar. And Magnus definitely cared the most about his homeworld.

The lion figured that he had liberated his homeworld after he killed the last of the great beasts and so figured that they would handle themselves

There were a lot of videos sent to him by Zahariel begging him to come back for morale, or at least take Luther back into the legion. They were ignored.

Abandoned? He had to go as a part of the crusade.

Other primarchs returned to their homeworlds, most kept in contact. The Lion did neither.

The lion was a firm believer that he had made his world perfect, he had to ignore them because of his pride/arrogance

I voted for Vulkan, but its a tossup to me between him and the Khan. I'm really hoping both of them (especially the former, since the Istvaan *poof* act is maddening) get some love in the Horus Hersey books.

Someone who likes the Khan? You should be framed and given a medal sir

Favorite: Guilliman (ADB's portayal of him is spot on how I imagine him, Abnett's is a tad too familiar, but otherwise good).

Least favorite: Lorgar, what a whiny little tool

Lion is wierd for me, completely dislike the arrogant little schemer, but totally love the Dark Angels (In fact, after UM I have more invested in DA and Tau than anything else).

Quick opinion, should I add in other famous people from that era, or make a separate thread with all them in it?

Seperate

I assume you mean Grammaticus, Valdor, Malcador etc

Yeah Malcador and the humies that made the Great Crusade possible

Okay I'm recasting my vote. I like good old Sangy, but I've realized that they try to do too much with him and his legion. I'm going dark side and saying Horus is my new favorite

Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

Yori wrote:Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

This deserves a siging

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Yori wrote:Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

This deserves a siging

Also he haves 69 votes right now, that ties in with the hole Slaaneshy thing he haves going on.

That is great

Fulgrim.

A stream of Fulgrim fans coming through, weird

Love Guilliman because i play smurfs. He is the best at strategy and made every world he conquered a place of paradise befroe moving on.
Do like vulkan just because of the ifre thing.
Mangnus is my favourite traitor primarch due to huge psykic abillity and he wants to expand everyones knowledge, plus it is very sad that he is made a traitor for trying to help.
Lorgat is a stupid pansey but in auralian he is completly beast, going mental on deamon Fulgrim and also going ape-s**t on a avitar.

I like Guilliman much more than I let on, but I still think he seems a little douchey

The Lion because he handed Perturabo the siege engines to break the walls of the Imperial Palace.

But seriously,Magnus the Red was the greatest.

Gotta love the Lion [sarcasm]

The only proper choice is Roboute Guilliman of course!
Go Ultramarines!!!! The only real good guys!

My vote goes to Ferrus Manus though- his fight with Fulgrim in Fulgrim was just badass up to eleven.
"If I built it I can break it too." then melts Fulgrim's sword with his hands.

Thats badass, but aren't Salamanders the only good guys?

Magnus is my favourite primarch just plainly.because even though he was deluded in his attempt to warn the emperor he took his punishment and even though he is trapped with his legion in the immaterium he remains loyal even if the imperium has him listed tratoris extremis. Also because he is also the wisest out of the primarchs and with it quite down to earth

Mortarion
so awsome
so so awsome

how does magnus remain loyal the last thing anyone knows about him is that he ascended the toer of sorcery swearing as horus did to see the imperium burn

On page 465 of the thousand sons novel magnus says 'despite everything I've donen my fate is my ownn' magnus said. I am a loyal son of the emperor, and I would never betray him, for I have already broken his heart and his greatest creation. I will accept my fate aand though history may judge us traitors, we will know the truth. We will know we were loyal unto the end because we accepted our fate'.

He was loyal, but for the most lore/knowledge-obsessed primarch, he was a bit of an idiot

Gulliman, more professional than the whole lot of them.

I dislike emotion, I like to think Robutte displayed less of it than his goth brother, his tragic brother, his brother on steroids or his brother with Daddy issues.

On that note, why is my favourite primarch the only one with a mis-spelt, unfunny name in the poll!? This will not stand!

mattyrm wrote:Gulliman, more professional than the whole lot of them.

I dislike emotion, I like to think Robutte displayed less of it than his goth brother, his tragic brother, his brother on steroids or his brother with Daddy issues.

On that note, why is my favourite primarch the only one with a mis-spelt, funny name in the poll!? This will not stand!

Fix'd so that you answer your own question

@ the angrysquig. While he may have been a bit of an idiot and naïve I still think he was right in what he sone and also the fact that even after he had his legion obliterated he still remains loyal.he is still fighting daemonhood even in the present 40k universe

Guilliman?

Magnus


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Guilliman however I feel he's a bit too mundane and also he finds it hard to find friends even his own legion hard to like him

I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

But his betrayal wasn't by the space wolves they just did what they thought they were ordered to do they people behind the scenes were the adeptus custodes and horus so surely if he knew that he'd be even more pissed at horus and the custodes

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

the dark king wrote:But his betrayal wasn't by the space wolves they just did what they thought they were ordered to do they people behind the scenes were the adeptus custodes and horus so surely if he knew that he'd be even more pissed at horus and the custodes

Valdor was a radical - in Nemesis he actually told Dorn when the latter broke into the Assassinnorum Meeting Room with several Terminators and held everyone (including Malcador and the Master Assassins) at gunpoint that underhanded methods were perfectly tolerable when it came to fighting Horus. Dorn bluntly told Valdor to mind his own business and protect the Emperor, and leave the defense of the Imperium to the Astartes; Dorn also said that fighting Horus without a moral code is meaningless, as they'd be no different from Horus if they didn't have one - kinda like an argument between a puritan and a radical Inquisitor. The Emperor basically agreed with Dorn - while He accepted the Assassinorum's existence, He also decided to place under the Council's authority rather than keep them in Malcador's shadow to ensure they'd follow the Imperium's rules.

Everybody loves a happy ending lol

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

I think he would have wanted that, but to much resistance to changing the storyline

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

I think he would have wanted that, but to much resistance to changing the storyline

I know...shame about that.

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

I think he would have wanted that, but to much resistance to changing the storyline

I know...shame about that.

Yeah. Ah well, that might mean that in the future if GW goes under they will read a thread like this and actually do stuff

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

I think he would have wanted that, but to much resistance to changing the storyline

I know...shame about that.

Yeah. Ah well, that might mean that in the future if GW goes under they will read a thread like this and actually do stuff

Posted these in another thread:


What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOU'RE ALL FIRED!".


Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'

Sanguinius. You know why? Because hes the primarch of the race I play. lol

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't think he's doing to well fighting the daemonic possession. I think he may have a similar situation as Fulgrim where he didn't fully understand what he was getting himself into when he agreed to the demon

Magnus isn't possessed - he's a Daemon Prince. But Magnus probably regrets it; Ahriman mentions him gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval that will never come, and it's implied that his presence on Terra during the Siege were done with reluctance. And seeing the Imperium burn could be seen differently - the destruction of the current Imperium where the Emperor is a god and where the ideals he fought for are dead.

Fair point, I know what I meant. And I think that it was only because Horus had so much power and the gods were on his side that Magnus participated in the seige at all. He was probably also still a little bitter at his perceived betrayal

He's conflicted - on one hand the Emperor 'betrayed' him by not telling him the truth about Chaos, but on the other hand, he probably realizes the old man was trying to protect him when he was told not to practice sorcery. And Ahriman and Magnus could well be working together - if Ahriman succeeds in getting to the Black Library and summons Magnus, they can break Tzeentch in revenge for their manipulation and go back in time through special tunnels in the Webway. The horrific Imperium we know never existed, as Magnus and Ahriman were able to warn the Emperor and everyone else of what happened - even if they cease to exist in that event, they'll be vindicated in the process.

I think he would have wanted that, but to much resistance to changing the storyline

I know...shame about that.

Yeah. Ah well, that might mean that in the future if GW goes under they will read a thread like this and actually do stuff

Posted these in another thread:


What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOU'RE ALL FIRED!".


Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'

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Damn my picture didn't work, but FULL OF WIN

@The AngrySquig
Picture's broken

Yeah I couldn't get it to work, it was just the full of win Luc Picard thing

Well here it is, post 3000. As much as I could I have made my milestone posts in this thread and I don't want this one to be the exception. I have also had a tradition of giving Lorgar and the Word Bearers gak, but reading Battle for the Abyss has really changed my mind on them. So today I direct my bottled up rage at the Dark Angels. They too wear dresses and they are really gigantic tools. And the Lion is the one Primarch with no redeeming qualities at all, not even one

The favorite has to be Guilliman. Say what you want about being boring, or being a prick, etc. but he is exactly how a primarch is supposed to be. I think he is a cool guy, and a tactical genius. Just finished reading know no fear and my love for him and his fantastic legion has only grown.

There's. No reason not to like him. "Oh but he has no real flaws! He's not a sociopath, a psychotic killing machine, or any other rediculous thing." Really? That's your argument. Please. That's Exactly how it should be.

Lastly. Rowboat girlyman hurhur I'm hilarious.

Anyways. Yeah. Guilliman... Yeah.

Dorn. Always Dorn, always has been. Johnson a close second, or maybe Russ. I swear I have some White Dwarf or first edition something book around here that lists the primarchs and back then it was just Lionel Johnson. Can't find it though so I can't be sure.

Although Sanguinius' self sacrifice and purity of heart can never be overlooked.

A) Guilliman's alright, but he's a giant tool. Even if you like him you can't deny it.

B) I am hilarious. I'm Rick James bitch

Roboute Guiliman for me.

I want him as my personal banking adviser.

Rogal dorn
Magnus
Fulgrim
Sanguinus

Coolest chapter with the collest primarchs

Ignatius wrote:The favorite has to be Guilliman. Say what you want about being boring, or being a prick, etc. but he is exactly how a primarch is supposed to be. I think he is a cool guy, and a tactical genius. Just finished reading know no fear and my love for him and his fantastic legion has only grown.

There's. No reason not to like him. "Oh but he has no real flaws! He's not a sociopath, a psychotic killing machine, or any other rediculous thing." Really? That's your argument. Please. That's Exactly how it should be.

Lastly. Rowboat girlyman hurhur I'm hilarious.

Anyways. Yeah. Guilliman... Yeah.

QFT.

I think the haters are just the anti-social dorks with issues personally.

Seriously, who would you rather go for a fething pint with? Pleasant, polite Gulliman or any number of his fethed in the head siblings?

Ignatius wrote:The favorite has to be Guilliman. Say what you want about being boring, or being a prick, etc. but he is exactly how a primarch is supposed to be. I think he is a cool guy, and a tactical genius. Just finished reading know no fear and my love for him and his fantastic legion has only grown.

There's. No reason not to like him. "Oh but he has no real flaws! He's not a sociopath, a psychotic killing machine, or any other rediculous thing." Really? That's your argument. Please. That's Exactly how it should be.

Lastly. Rowboat girlyman hurhur I'm hilarious.

Anyways. Yeah. Guilliman... Yeah.

Bingo. People hate him because he's exactly what he was created to be. The best Soldier/Administrator/Politician there could be. People rag on him all the time, but you've got primarchs with daddy issues, bath-salt issues, etc... and those guys are the coolest there is. No thanks. I'll take the guy who gets stabbed in the back by his brother and doesn't crumple like a bitch for $1000, Alex.

I've never seen any accounts of him being accorded the greatest tactical primarch, his legion even though numerically superior to that of Horus were still second best


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Oh and for the record I'm not a smurf hater, I just enjoy winding up their fanatical devotees

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:I've never seen any accounts of him being accorded the greatest tactical primarch, his legion even though numerically superior to that of Horus were still second best


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and for the record I'm not a smurf hater, I just enjoy winding up their fanatical devotees

Never said he was the greatest strategist, though maybe he was. Horus' legion conquered more worlds, true, but there are many unexplained variables for that. The Ultramarines operated primarily at the edge of the galaxy, where it's conceivable there were fewer human planets to reintegrate, as well as fewer planets as a whole to conquer. We don't know what galactic territory the crusades of the Luna Wolves covered, if it was closer to Earth and the Galactic Core which could be a reasonable assumption, then of course there was more worlds for them to reclaim/conquer.

mattyrm wrote:

Ignatius wrote:The favorite has to be Guilliman. Say what you want about being boring, or being a prick, etc. but he is exactly how a primarch is supposed to be. I think he is a cool guy, and a tactical genius. Just finished reading know no fear and my love for him and his fantastic legion has only grown.

There's. No reason not to like him. "Oh but he has no real flaws! He's not a sociopath, a psychotic killing machine, or any other rediculous thing." Really? That's your argument. Please. That's Exactly how it should be.

Lastly. Rowboat girlyman hurhur I'm hilarious.

Anyways. Yeah. Guilliman... Yeah.

QFT.

I think the haters are just the anti-social dorks with issues personally.

Seriously, who would you rather go for a fething pint with? Pleasant, polite Gulliman or any number of his fethed in the head siblings?

I would like to point out that I don't hate Guilliman, I just find all the joke names and riling up his fangirls hilarious. And really? You would want to get bombed with anyone but Russ?

People hate Guilliman because his personality is very bland. He's a fictional character. There is no thing he's "supposed" to be. Fictional characters have no such limitations. Thus, the "haters gonna hate" argument doesn't really apply here.

I liked his character, to an extent, in Know No Fear, but that has a lot to do with the fact that Dan Abnett is a good writer. Ultimately, many people just like flawed characters, something Guilliman is sorely lacking in. Like, for Christ's sake, it's stated in KNF that the only reason he wasn't warmaster was because he was too busy building his own kingdom to care for the job. Come on.

BlaxicanX wrote:People hate Guilliman because he his personality is very bland. He's a fictional character. There is no thing he's "supposed" to be. Fictional characters have no such limitations. Thus, the "haters gonna hate" argument doesn't really apply here.

I liked his character, to an extent, in Know No Fear, but that has a lot to do with the fact that Dan Abnett is a writer. Ultimately, many people just like flawed characters, something Guilliman is sorely lacking. Like, for Christ's sake, it's stated that the only reason he wasn't warmaster was because he was too busy raising building his own kingdom to care for the job..

1st things first, you are epic for having me in your signature. Secondly, I completely agree with you. KNF was good, but most stuff with him is rather bland. That being said I don't hate his character, its just not the best

Rowboat Girlyman , well because who doesn't love the greatest space bureaucrat ever.


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Rowboat Girlyman , well because who doesn't love the greatest space bureaucrat ever.

Rawr Leman Russ BA rebel without a cause. Gotta love him even if you hate the SW.

Leman Russ is badass, but he's the least rebellious. He follows his orders to a T

I'd have to say Vulkan. even though his background is lacking in areas you still have a guy who's principle in life (and you will see it mirrored onto the legion) was to protect others. and then their

is the whole fact that when the emporer came for him and they had a contest that vulkan (despite winning the competition) pledged servitude to the emporer because he threw away his chance to

win in order to save him! and also you have to love the whole carrying two thunder hammers thing plus i personally like the whole fire motif

BlaxicanX wrote:People hate Guilliman because his personality is very bland. He's a fictional character. There is no thing he's "supposed" to be. Fictional characters have no such limitations. Thus, the "haters gonna hate" argument doesn't really apply here.

I liked his character, to an extent, in Know No Fear, but that has a lot to do with the fact that Dan Abnett is a good writer. Ultimately, many people just like flawed characters, something Guilliman is sorely lacking in. Like, for Christ's sake, it's stated in KNF that the only reason he wasn't warmaster was because he was too busy building his own kingdom to care for the job. Come on.

Simply because they are fictional characters doesn't mean there isn't something they were designed by fluff writers to be. Everything in the warhammer universe has something it is supposed to be.

Anyways, it's your opinion that you think he is bland. I don't find him to be that way, but it doesn't seem that I will be able to convince you to feel the same so I'm just going to accept that you have a different opinion.

The characters are supposed to be whatever the writers want them to be. There is nothing else beyond that.

I didn't say that you think he's bland, I said that a lot of people think he's bland, which is true, a lot of people do, myself included. That some people also think he's interesting is ultimately irrelevant. I'm addressing this weird elitist attitude of "if people dislike Gurlyman it must be because they're just haters". What? That's a moronic belief.

BlaxicanX wrote:The characters are supposed to be whatever the writers want them to be. There is nothing else beyond that.

I didn't say that you think he's bland, I said that a lot of people think he's bland, which is true, a lot of people do, myself included. That some people also think he's interesting is ultimately irrelevant. I'm addressing this weird elitist attitude of "if people dislike Gurlyman it must be because they're just haters". What? That's a moronic belief.

I never Implied that you said I thought he was bland. And While it doesn't seem that you hate him simply because he was the ultramarine primarch, there are a LARGE amount of people that do think that way. Consider it the few ruining it for the many. And for the record, using "Gurlyman" in a reply Doesn't help your arguement. If people don't like him fine. But show a little respect to those who do guys. C'mon.

Magnus first and foremost, the last vestige of knowledge seekers and willing to advance the cause of man.

I don't know about Magnus, he seems like he would make a great High Lord/Second Emperor, but he doesn't seem like a good primarch

Dorn and Fulgrim (Pre-Heresy of him is very important).

I always thought Dorn was epic and his Imperial Fist were vital to the defense of the Imperium.

Fulgrim's loyalty to the Emperor I really enjoyed and respect.

Galdos wrote:Fulgrim's loyalty to the Emperor I really enjoyed and respect.

Funny how gak works out aint it

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't know about Magnus, he seems like he would make a great High Lord/Second Emperor, but he doesn't seem like a good primarch

Actually he was. No other legion was as devoted to their Primarch as the Thousand Sons. They actually considered Magnus as their real father, as opposed to their genetic primogenitor.

SANGUINIUS!

Tadashi wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I don't know about Magnus, he seems like he would make a great High Lord/Second Emperor, but he doesn't seem like a good primarch

Actually he was. No other legion was as devoted to their Primarch as the Thousand Sons. They actually considered Magnus as their real father, as opposed to their genetic primogenitor.

He was good to his sons, but I think that he was better at the statesman aspect than the general/fighting aspect


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BrotherGnaeus wrote:SANGUINIUS!

MAH BOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Was I the only one to catch "Girlyman" here?

Its been the subject of about half the pages

Nurgle wrote:Was I the only one to catch "Girlyman" here?

No, you are not. I've been complaining a lot more than my maturity level would normally allow about it

But still...

Mortarion for me. Not sure why, but I just think he's awesome.

Mortarion is actually really cool.

I like how Sanguinius gets his kudos here.

Who doesn't love dat shine?

Im kind of surprised to see Sanguinius take first place

I didnt know he was so well liked

Why wouldn't he be?

Coolyo294 wrote:Alpharius, Guilliman, and Pertuarbo.

Guilliman

Lorgar. Because he saw the truth.

For me its got to be corax but i do like kurze.

Why doesn't Khan ever get any love from the people? I want HH books on White Scars and Khan so that more will vote for him being cool.

1) Fulgrim. He's a interesting character because he's arrogant, but essentially still wants to do what's best, rather than Lorgar's "LETZ TURN TO KAOS LOLZ"

Also, his obsession with perfection is a pretty cool flaw.

2) Corax. Again with the tragic hero thing. I was looking forward to Deliverance Lost, the HH book, but it really surprised me in quality, even if some parts were lifted wwhole from Raven's Flight

3) Magnus. Hmm. Never noticed how tragic all my favourites are :L

Essentially, I'm surprised a traitor isn't higher than Sanguinius, the Traitors are just much less boring!

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:1) Fulgrim. He's a interesting character because he's arrogant, but essentially still wants to do what's best, rather than Lorgar's "LETZ TURN TO KAOS LOLZ"

He was a pretty boy with an inferiority complex who now spends the day wasting on sex, drugs, pain, and alcohol. At least Lorgar does something productive. Well, the Word Bearers do, at any rate.

Perturabo and Kurze cuz they are men of hate. And the world just doesn't have enough hate in it.

NSFW:

After reading Prospero Burns Leman Russ became my favorite Primarch. I love the fact that he cultivates that :we are dumb stupid beserkers who have no idea about any tactics or strategy.
If any of you played against a halfway experienced Space Wolf Lord, thinking what Lemann wanted you to think, you would most probably lose.
I must admit that The Wolves are very lucky to still be around, because if Magnus had reacted differently in the 1000 Sons there would be no Space Wolves to admire today. I like the whole Horus Heresy but I just hope Gavin Thorp does not get to write too many books. He makes me yawn

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:After reading Prospero Burns Leman Russ became my favorite Primarch. I love the fact that he cultivates that :we are dumb stupid beserkers who have no idea about any tactics or strategy.

He may have, but that doesn't change the fact that he was blind and arrogant.

I voted Guilliman, because to me he is pretty much the only one who lives up to the promise of a Primarch. A well-rounded superhuman being without any debilitating character flaws. Not just a great fighter or a great general, but a great leader of men.

Can we stop with the Guilliman bashing in EVERY, SINGLE thread on primarchs?

tgjensen wrote:I voted Guilliman, because to me he is pretty much the only one who lives up to the promise of a Primarch. A well-rounded superhuman being without any debilitating character flaws. Not just a great fighter or a great general, but a great leader of men.

Horus had that as well, but Guilliman was cut off from the rest of the galaxy, so was on his own. Another reason I voted for him.

How was Leman Russ blinder than Magnus. They both got done in by the Primordial Anihilator. I'll type it again THE Primordial Anihilator. The forces of Chaos knew that if Russ and Magnus were to stand against them at full Legion strength they would have been toast. Even Robutte Guilliman reckoned that Russ, Manus, Dorn & himself could take down any enemy.
Besides its a cool thing that Russ did not submit to the codex. Thats why they are one the biggest Legions 10000 years later

calgar 2.5 wrote:Can we stop with the Guilliman bashing in EVERY, SINGLE thread on primarchs?

No, no we can not

Chaos Lady wrote:

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:1) Fulgrim. He's a interesting character because he's arrogant, but essentially still wants to do what's best, rather than Lorgar's "LETZ TURN TO KAOS LOLZ"

He was a pretty boy with an inferiority complex who now spends the day wasting on sex, drugs, pain, and alcohol. At least Lorgar does something productive. Well, the Word Bearers do, at any rate.

Actually, he's not doing any of those things, considering he's a prisoner in the daemon's mind.

Maybe later books will show us Lorgar tutoring him to achieve true apotheosis/symbiosis with the daemon, but from what we know now, there really is no Fulgrim. And yes, he was a ponce who basically turned to Chaos because some guy didn't like one of his sculptures.

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:After reading Prospero Burns Leman Russ became my favorite Primarch. I love the fact that he cultivates that :we are dumb stupid beserkers who have no idea about any tactics or strategy.

Indeed! Space Wolves are dumb stupid berserkers that are actually quite adept at tactics and strategy.

I'm not being sarcastic, Space Wolves are dead-hard badasses and one of the most lethal fighting forces in the Imperium. They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted.

Fulgrim was such a pretty lady before he turned into that snake monster.

The Vanity and the sheer "WTF WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!?" of the Emperor's Children is great.

The WTF WERE YOU THINKING factor in the legions is funny regardless of which one

"They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted." Omegus

OK So lets Break this down:
Magnus never realized with whome he had made a deal: ignorant & short sighted
All form of Ritual is can be seen as superstitious. The socalled superstitious view of the SW that the Warp is not your friend turned out to be right.
And Magnus`s conversation is only arrogant, never did I see anything humble come from Magnus. And if Magnus was so smart howcome he could not forsee what the consequences so one could call him short sighted, he dispayed all these traits. Furthermore if you read the Tales of Ragnar or even the codex of the Space Wolves they are nothing like what you describe them to be. But since you are a clear proponent of Tzeench its clear why you label the Wolves this way, Pity you live so far away I would bring Ozerik Sleipnirs Company and teach you the Space Wolves are actually experts at taking down sorcerous Traitors. The Thousand Sons had been sold out by their Primarch pretty much from the start. I guess you could call me an unashamed fan of the Space wolves: I mean they have kept beards & drinking beer fashionable since 30 k whats not to like about them.

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:"They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted." Omegus

OK So lets Break this down:
Magnus never realized with whome he had made a deal: ignorant & short sighted
All form of Ritual is can be seen as superstitious. The socalled superstitious view of the SW that the Warp is not your friend turned out to be right.
And Magnus`s conversation is only arrogant, never did I see anything humble come from Magnus. And if Magnus was so smart howcome he could not forsee what the consequences so one could call him short sighted, he dispayed all these traits. Furthermore if you read the Tales of Ragnar or even the codex of the Space Wolves they are nothing like what you describe them to be. But since you are a clear proponent of Tzeench its clear why you label the Wolves this way, Pity you live so far away I would bring Ozerik Sleipnirs Company and teach you the Space Wolves are actually experts at taking down sorcerous Traitors. The Thousand Sons had been sold out by their Primarch pretty much from the start. I guess you could call me an unashamed fan of the Space wolves: I mean they have kept beards & drinking beer fashionable since 30 k whats not to like about them.

Two words: rabid dogs. A complete disgrace to the ideals of the Imperial Truth and the old Imperium, and dangerous mavericks in the current one.

You have something against Guilliman don't you...

timthehierodule wrote:You have something against Guilliman don't you...

No nothing against him, it's just funny

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:"They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted." Omegus

OK So lets Break this down:
Magnus never realized with whome he had made a deal: ignorant & short sighted
All form of Ritual is can be seen as superstitious. The socalled superstitious view of the SW that the Warp is not your friend turned out to be right.
And Magnus`s conversation is only arrogant, never did I see anything humble come from Magnus. And if Magnus was so smart howcome he could not forsee what the consequences so one could call him short sighted, he dispayed all these traits. Furthermore if you read the Tales of Ragnar or even the codex of the Space Wolves they are nothing like what you describe them to be. But since you are a clear proponent of Tzeench its clear why you label the Wolves this way, Pity you live so far away I would bring Ozerik Sleipnirs Company and teach you the Space Wolves are actually experts at taking down sorcerous Traitors. The Thousand Sons had been sold out by their Primarch pretty much from the start. I guess you could call me an unashamed fan of the Space wolves: I mean they have kept beards & drinking beer fashionable since 30 k whats not to like about them.

Blah blah blah. The Ragnar tales are like books for 5-year-olds, with them fightin' and fartin' rounda woyld!



Codex: Space Wolves? The only example out of that book that anyone ever brings up is Logan's refusal to go along with the Inquisition's plans for Armageddon. Of course, there's been a whole book written about that event, and all his blustering did was result in the death of countless of innocents, spread Chaos corruption throughout the Imperium, and almost brought things to a civil war where the Imperium would bleed themselves dry to exterminate the Wolves. Or how about Battle for the Fang, where the Space Wolves are shown as a Chapter who will mock a leader who advises caution and forethought before taking an action?

The superstition comes not from the rituals that summon Warp powers, but rather from the culture of Fenris, where people will put up red sails and go slaughter every living being of a particular village because some frothing shaman told them they are tainted by sky magic (irony much?). It also comes into the picture when the Wolves like to pretend their powers come from anything other than the Warp. Things from the Warp are obviously not bad if you know what you're doing (see: Grey Knights)

Magnus' lack of perspective (get it? he only has one eye? why do you think Tzeench asked for it? it's symbolic as much as physical) is undeniable, but he made that deal in desperation in order to save his children. Russ just keeps the mutants chained in his basement to unleash when he needs them, while talking smack about mutants in other Legions. Magnus was also undeniably arrogant, and near the end, defeatist and treacherous to his own children. Magnus did a lot of things wrong. The fact that he is ALSO a failure (like most of the Primarchs), doesn't excuse or suddenly make the Wolves saints. Magnus fell due to ignorance and pride, but he meant the best and felt genuine remorse for what he did. Russ is motivated by willful ignorance and pride, condemns others for doing the exact same thing he's doing. "Damn those Thousand Sons, a bunch of filthy witches and mutants. Let's get them! Unleash our witches and mutants!"

Even with faced with reality, he remains haughty and lives in his own little world. "Oh, the brother and planet I just gleefully murdered were actually loyalist all along? Oh well, let's cover this up so no one knows about it, while we continue to hunt down the remnants and pretend we're still heroes."

Omegus wrote:

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:"They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted." Omegus

OK So lets Break this down:
Magnus never realized with whome he had made a deal: ignorant & short sighted
All form of Ritual is can be seen as superstitious. The socalled superstitious view of the SW that the Warp is not your friend turned out to be right.
And Magnus`s conversation is only arrogant, never did I see anything humble come from Magnus. And if Magnus was so smart howcome he could not forsee what the consequences so one could call him short sighted, he dispayed all these traits. Furthermore if you read the Tales of Ragnar or even the codex of the Space Wolves they are nothing like what you describe them to be. But since you are a clear proponent of Tzeench its clear why you label the Wolves this way, Pity you live so far away I would bring Ozerik Sleipnirs Company and teach you the Space Wolves are actually experts at taking down sorcerous Traitors. The Thousand Sons had been sold out by their Primarch pretty much from the start. I guess you could call me an unashamed fan of the Space wolves: I mean they have kept beards & drinking beer fashionable since 30 k whats not to like about them.

Blah blah blah. The Ragnar tales are like books for 5-year-olds, with them fightin' and fartin' rounda woyld!



Codex: Space Wolves? The only example out of that book that anyone ever brings up is Logan's refusal to go along with the Inquisition's plans for Armageddon. Of course, there's been a whole book written about that event, and all his blustering did was result in the death of countless of innocents, spread Chaos corruption throughout the Imperium, and almost brought things to a civil war where the Imperium would bleed themselves dry to exterminate the Wolves. Or how about Battle for the Fang, where the Space Wolves are shown as a Chapter who will mock a leader who advises caution and forethought before taking an action?

The superstition comes not from the rituals that summon Warp powers, but rather from the culture of Fenris, where people will put up red sails and go slaughter every living being of a particular village because some frothing shaman told them they are tainted by sky magic (irony much?). It also comes into the picture when the Wolves like to pretend their powers come from anything other than the Warp. Things from the Warp are obviously not bad if you know what you're doing (see: Grey Knights)

Magnus' lack of perspective (get it? he only has one eye? why do you think Tzeench asked for it? it's symbolic as much as physical) is undeniable, but he made that deal in desperation in order to save his children. Russ just keeps the mutants chained in his basement to unleash when he needs them, while talking smack about mutants in other Legions. Magnus was also undeniably arrogant, and near the end, defeatist and treacherous to his own children. Magnus did a lot of things wrong. The fact that he is ALSO a failure (like most of the Primarchs), doesn't excuse or suddenly make the Wolves saints. Magnus fell due to ignorance and pride, but he meant the best and felt genuine remorse for what he did. Russ is motivated by willful ignorance and pride, condemns others for doing the exact same thing he's doing. "Damn those Thousand Sons, a bunch of filthy witches and mutants. Let's get them! Unleash our witches and mutants!"

Even with faced with reality, he remains haughty and lives in his own little world. "Oh, the brother and planet I just gleefully murdered were actually loyalist all along? Oh well, let's cover this up so no one knows about it, while we continue to hunt down the remnants and pretend we're still heroes."

+111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

Ilove40k wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:"They just also happen to be ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted." Omegus

OK So lets Break this down:
Magnus never realized with whome he had made a deal: ignorant & short sighted
All form of Ritual is can be seen as superstitious. The socalled superstitious view of the SW that the Warp is not your friend turned out to be right.
And Magnus`s conversation is only arrogant, never did I see anything humble come from Magnus. And if Magnus was so smart howcome he could not forsee what the consequences so one could call him short sighted, he dispayed all these traits. Furthermore if you read the Tales of Ragnar or even the codex of the Space Wolves they are nothing like what you describe them to be. But since you are a clear proponent of Tzeench its clear why you label the Wolves this way, Pity you live so far away I would bring Ozerik Sleipnirs Company and teach you the Space Wolves are actually experts at taking down sorcerous Traitors. The Thousand Sons had been sold out by their Primarch pretty much from the start. I guess you could call me an unashamed fan of the Space wolves: I mean they have kept beards & drinking beer fashionable since 30 k whats not to like about them.

Blah blah blah. The Ragnar tales are like books for 5-year-olds, with them fightin' and fartin' rounda woyld!



Codex: Space Wolves? The only example out of that book that anyone ever brings up is Logan's refusal to go along with the Inquisition's plans for Armageddon. Of course, there's been a whole book written about that event, and all his blustering did was result in the death of countless of innocents, spread Chaos corruption throughout the Imperium, and almost brought things to a civil war where the Imperium would bleed themselves dry to exterminate the Wolves. Or how about Battle for the Fang, where the Space Wolves are shown as a Chapter who will mock a leader who advises caution and forethought before taking an action?

The superstition comes not from the rituals that summon Warp powers, but rather from the culture of Fenris, where people will put up red sails and go slaughter every living being of a particular village because some frothing shaman told them they are tainted by sky magic (irony much?). It also comes into the picture when the Wolves like to pretend their powers come from anything other than the Warp. Things from the Warp are obviously not bad if you know what you're doing (see: Grey Knights)

Magnus' lack of perspective (get it? he only has one eye? why do you think Tzeench asked for it? it's symbolic as much as physical) is undeniable, but he made that deal in desperation in order to save his children. Russ just keeps the mutants chained in his basement to unleash when he needs them, while talking smack about mutants in other Legions. Magnus was also undeniably arrogant, and near the end, defeatist and treacherous to his own children. Magnus did a lot of things wrong. The fact that he is ALSO a failure (like most of the Primarchs), doesn't excuse or suddenly make the Wolves saints. Magnus fell due to ignorance and pride, but he meant the best and felt genuine remorse for what he did. Russ is motivated by willful ignorance and pride, condemns others for doing the exact same thing he's doing. "Damn those Thousand Sons, a bunch of filthy witches and mutants. Let's get them! Unleash our witches and mutants!"

Even with faced with reality, he remains haughty and lives in his own little world. "Oh, the brother and planet I just gleefully murdered were actually loyalist all along? Oh well, let's cover this up so no one knows about it, while we continue to hunt down the remnants and pretend we're still heroes."

+111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

-111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

The Wolves were no saints, but they out-did the Sons at least. With the Wolves you have a group of brilliant tacticians playing at being brain-dead psychopathic killers, with the sons you have a group of people who take every possible opportunity to spurn the Emperor's teachings and direct commands playing at being the Galaxy's foremost scholars

No, they aren't brilliant tacticians playing at being brain-dead psychopathic killers. They aren't brain-dead, and they aren't psychopaths. They are savage and ignorant (willfully so... they love to not know) barbarians, who also happen to be brilliant tacticians. Why? Because tactics help you be a better killer. Honestly, now that I think about it, I may even question the "brilliant" part. There was nothing brilliant about Russ' tactics when he and the Lion assaulted that keep, there was nothing brilliant about how the Chapter Master during Battle for the Fang handled his forces, and there was nothing brilliant about how Logan handled the Inquisition (which is why Bjorn told him off). No one has ever denied that the Space Wolves are really, really, really good at killing stuff, but people seriously need to stop pretending they are some kind of enlightened and benevolent philosopher-kings.

As for the Thousand Sons, they were the galaxy's foremost scholars. The Librarium is their creation, and Magnus' vision of mastering the Warp to serve mankind lives on in the Grey Knights. Spurning the Emperor's teachings? That was the problem, the Emperor didn't teach anyone anything. He kept everything top secret and mysterious, until it blew up in his face. The Thousand Sons are guilty of spurning the Emperor's order at the Council of Nikea. You know, just like the Space Wolves who pretended it didn't apply to them in the first place, or the treacherous Lion who ignored it, or Guilliman who acquiesced but later included them in his Codex Astartes, or Malcador who overturned the decree to form the GK, or even the Emperor himself who gave his blessing to Guilliman and Malcador.

Omegus wrote:


Actually, he's not doing any of those things, considering he's a prisoner in the daemon's mind.

He kicks the demon out in the "Shattered Mirror" story in the Primarchs collection.

The Emperor: Hey son just so you know my crusade is about enlightenment and acquiring knowledge. Now let's go play a game of celestial baseball in the Warp together
Magnus the Red: Well that sounds good to me dad! =D

Later...

Emperor: Well now, this is quite an impressive collection of Warpcraft tomes son.
Magnus: Gee, thanks dad, I'm glad you li-
Emperor: Get rid of it. Stop using Warpcraft.
Magnus: Wait, what? What the feth are you talking about?
Emperor: Warpcraft is dangerous, and I should have kept you ignorant about all of this.
Magnus: ... Dude, what the hell, you taught me about the Warp, and said your crusade is all about acquiring knowledge, not keeping humanity in the dar-
Emperor: Obey me or I'll have your brother kill you.
Magnus: =\


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathholydeath wrote:

Omegus wrote:


Actually, he's not doing any of those things, considering he's a prisoner in the daemon's mind.

He kicks the demon out in the "Shattered Mirror" story in the Primarchs collection.

Also, that's stupid.