Hey Omegon so if Ragnar is for 5 year olds is the rest of the bolterporn for the 13 year olds. But your attitudes toward the Wolves is just fine, keeps things spicy. We have a follower of Tzeench who keeps selling himself down the river, & Tadashi who prefers Marines who will never have fun. Thanx for the feedback though, this has been fun. The wolves will keep growing beards, drinking beer & brawling amongst themselves offending the puritans & always fighting the slaves of Chaos.
Well the fluff that we do have on Khan is pretty sweet in my opinion. However that fluff is almost entirely about the Siege of Terra which of course happened during the Heresy itself. We haven't seen any HH books about him although I am willing to bet they are going to rock. There is just so much potential in that Legion that its ridiculous.
Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:Hey Omegon so if Ragnar is for 5 year olds is the rest of the bolterporn for the 13 year olds. But your attitudes toward the Wolves is just fine, keeps things spicy. We have a follower of Tzeench who keeps selling himself down the river, & Tadashi who prefers Marines who will never have fun. Thanx for the feedback though, this has been fun. The wolves will keep growing beards, drinking beer & brawling amongst themselves offending the puritans & always fighting the slaves of Chaos.
That's not my point. My point is that the Wolves are self-righteous hypocrites. And for your information, my Chapter, so to speak, is the Blood Ravens, not the Black Templars. I just pointed out the latter as a better choice compared to Fenris' dogs. And your forgetting something else as well. The Imperium may have given up the ideals of truth and illumination, but not unity. That's why the Wolves are so distrusted - they're mavericks. All Space Marines are semi-autonomous, but most know better than to compromise the unity of the Imperium. Wolves don't.
Tadashi wrote:That's not my point. My point is that the Wolves are self-righteous hypocrites. And for your information, my Chapter, so to speak, is the Blood Ravens, not the Black Templars. I just pointed out the latter as a better choice compared to Fenris' dogs. And your forgetting something else as well. The Imperium may have given up the ideals of truth and illumination, but not unity. That's why the Wolves are so distrusted - they're mavericks. All Space Marines are semi-autonomous, but most know better than to compromise the unity of the Imperium. Wolves don't.
It's funny. In a thread about Primarchs, you post makes no actual mention of Primarchs.
It's clear that you (and Omegus) don't like the Space Wolves, which is fair enough. However, I fear you may be too dogged (dogged, geddit?! Dogs, Wolves? Classic) in your dislike of them and that its a lot less black and white than you seem to suggest IMHO.
For example, its no secret that the Wolves follow the ideals of the Big E, rather than the high lords, however I think there are multiple ways to promote unity. The Wolves seem to do it through overtly combating the threats to this unity (such as Chaos, Xenos and other gribblies) and promoting loyalty through preserving life, protection and positive reinforcement. In contrast, the Inquisition/Imperium more subvertly combats the threats to this unity (such as combating the traitor within) and promoting loyalty through religion, punishment and a common threat.
Likewise, I disagree with Omegus' opinion on who was in the wrong regarding the outcome of Armageddon. As I said, there's a lot more grey area and room for interpretation, but that's just like, my opinion man.
Ultimately, its off topic and I have no desire to watch another thread devolve into Space Wolf bashing or continue this discussion. Hopefully I've made my point and that's all I wish to say on the topic as it is off-topic and I'm not going to try and convince you of the qualities of the Wolves, nor do I intend to explain why I like them...
On Topic: I'm interested to see the direction they take the White Scars/Khan in. We know they're loyalist and their general style and doctrine, but we don't really know their beliefs or motivations. I wonder if they'll be more humanitarian like Vulkan or Russ, loyal like Sanguinius, or loyal but conflicted like Corax and Dorn. It'll be interesting to see the underlying aspects to Khan and the Scars and I have faith Chris Wraight will do a good job.
I have zero problem at all with discussing how much the Space Wolves suck. Let's just do that, instead. In fact, let's talk about how much Matt Ward sucks.
Who do you guys dislike more, Matt Ward or the Space Wolves?
Just Dave wrote:
It's clear that you (and Omegus) don't like the Space Wolves, which is fair enough. However, I fear you may be too dogged (dogged, geddit?! Dogs, Wolves? Classic) in your dislike of them and that its a lot less black and white than you seem to suggest IMHO.
For example, its no secret that the Wolves follow the ideals of the Big E, rather than the high lords, however I think there are multiple ways to promote unity. The Wolves seem to do it through overtly combating the threats to this unity (such as Chaos, Xenos and other gribblies) and promoting loyalty through preserving life, protection and positive reinforcement. In contrast, the Inquisition/Imperium more subvertly combats the threats to this unity (such as combating the traitor within) and promoting loyalty through religion, punishment and a common threat.
Likewise, I disagree with Omegus' opinion on who was in the wrong regarding the outcome of Armageddon. As I said, there's a lot more grey area and room for interpretation, but that's just like, my opinion man.
I don't like the Space Wolves, true, but I kind of hate most of the Primarchs and Astartes except a few characters here or there (I loathe the Lion the most). The Emperor should have built in kill-switches on all of them, and especially the Primarchs. They are like a worse version of Jedi; who needs these guys around when routinely a huge portion of them turn psycho and start murdering everything?
As for the outcome of Armageddon,
Spoiler:
it's not opinion, it's fact. Read The Emperor's Gift. Because the Wolves harbored and smuggled survivors anywhere they could, countless completely unrelated and innocent outposts and colonies were destroyed, some corrupted survivors slipped through the net to cause devastation on even more completely unrelated planets, and the Imperium almost came to civil war until Bjorn woke up and smacked Logan down and told him to stop acting the fool. In order to save a few hundred thousand, the Wolves caused the death of millions, and kept large portions of the Inquisition and their own chapter occupied for months in a pointless game of cat & mouse when they could have been fighting the enemies of the Imperium. While you have to admire their stance on principle, it was short-sighted and did more harm than good. As usual.
Anyway, that's my last post on the topic (in this thread at least ).
Chris Wraight did a pretty good job on Battle for the Fang, it should be interesting to see if he can inject some life into the Scars.
I've read The Emperor's Gift (which I would wholeheartedly recommend to anyone reading this) and your above point should probably be spoilered man...
Spoiler:
I agreed with Logan's actions and probably would've done the same in his situation.
I know what you're saying; I can FULLY understand you agreeing with the Inquisition and that's the brilliance of that situation, that it's so easy to understand and agree with either side.
Both sides were trying to save people in different ways, ultimately.
The Wolves would risk billions, to save millions, at the risk that 1 person was tainted.
The Inquisition would kill millions, to save billions, at the risk that 1 person was tainted.
Again, I would've probably done the same as Logan in his situation; he gave his word to defend the people and IMHO the people deserved defending, despite the greater risk. The Wolves actions were ultimately aimed to definitely save millions, whereas the Inquisitions actions were aimed to potentially save billions. It's different levels of risk, reward and immediacy really, no?
Additionally, my interpretation of it was that Bjorn agreed with Logan's actions (of the immediate saving of the civilians/soldiers of Armageddon) until the point where he pushed it too far and risked the chapter/civil war.
But yes, I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter.
On topic...
Moving on, I too was impressed with Chris Wraight's work on The Battle for the Fang and his HH short stories, so his White Scars stuff could be interesting.
In regards to your other point (spoilers Aurelian) ...
Spoiler:
Although I've not read it, I've been told Aurelian suggests a potential 'kill switch' for the Legions - rather than the Primarchs it seems - where the Emperor can apparently (according to Chaos, so not exactly reliable) use a specific Primarch's essence to destroy his Legion. Or, arguably the Wolves were meant to somewhat act as a kill-switch.
Just Dave wrote:I've read The Emperor's Gift (which I would wholeheartedly recommend to anyone reading this) and your above point should probably be spoilered man...
Done. One thing that was kind of weird about the whole situation was
Spoiler:
the head Inquisitor who was making all the judgement calls (although that self-promoting douchebag GK helped him along... I thought the whole GK screening process weeded out vulnerabilities such as self-aggrandizement?). The Fenrisian Inquisitor (who seemed really childish and immature for someone holding her post) said that he was young, had absolute authority, and that no one knew when that authority came from, but neither would anyone question it. It just seemed like a classic Tzeenchian mind-screw (maybe more of Magnus getting his petty vengeance on Space Wolves by provoking them into starting a war they couldn't win), but it's never mentioned again or expanded upon, and after he dies everyone suddenly forgets about the Inquisitor Lord that was just murdered by a Chapter Master.
In regards to your other point (spoilers Aurelian) ...
Spoiler:
Although I've not read it, I've been told Aurelian suggests a potential 'kill switch' for the Legions - rather than the Primarchs it seems - where the Emperor can apparently (according to Chaos, so not exactly reliable) use a specific Primarch's essence to destroy his Legion. Or, arguably the Wolves were meant to somewhat act as a kill-switch.
Spoiler:
I've read Aurelian, and I don't remember anything about kill switches. Fateweaver did say that in one alternate timeline, Lorgar told the Emperor to stuff himself, and was executed by Curze and Russ.
Just Dave wrote:Can we not have another thread bashing Guilliman, by certain individuals in general, please?
I fixed it to be what happens more often. As soon as people stop bashing guilliman for no reason other than the fact that they are the poster boys I'll stop hating on space wolves.
Just Dave wrote:In regards to your other point (spoilers Aurelian) ...
Spoiler:
Although I've not read it, I've been told Aurelian suggests a potential 'kill switch' for the Legions - rather than the Primarchs it seems - where the Emperor can apparently (according to Chaos, so not exactly reliable) use a specific Primarch's essence to destroy his Legion. Or, arguably the Wolves were meant to somewhat act as a kill-switch.
Spoiler:
I've read Aurelian, and I don't remember anything about kill switches. Fateweaver did say that in one alternate timeline, Lorgar told the Emperor to stuff himself, and was executed by Curze and Russ.
Spoiler:
Yeah...
Quote courtesy of Pilau Rice:
"Aurelian p64 - In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ. Your heart was cut from your corpse and a great sorcery of alchemical and genetic power was wrought upon all who shared your bloodline. Your legion was poisoned, reduced to madness, and finally annihilated by the fleets if the Ultramar King."
This suggests to me that his heart/essence/blood/genes/whatever could be used [probably by the Emperor and his psychic shenanigans] to cripple that Primarch's Legion.
I don't like this notion however, it seems a bit 'convenient'. Additionally, it's a claim from a Chaos entity (Ingethel) so I don't believe it either. I reckon it's just the author adding additional potential for discussion (like this), whilst showing the brutality of the big E (and Curze and Russ) and the deceptiveness of Chaos...
That said, I can't really think of any Primarchs more suited to fulfilling Assassin-esque roles than Curze and Russ.
Corax and Lorgar are also the two most interesting imo, as they're the only ones presented as something other than 1-dimensional heroes out of Greek myth, as far as I read. Lorgar was especially cool in Aurelian.
).
