I want to start a pre-heresy army, but I'm at a loss for which. Just want to see what public opinions are, please include a reason in the comments. No II or XI please

Alpharius, Guilliman, and Pertuarbo.

Kurze. No question.

Space Batman always wins.

Personally, I'm a fan of Goldilocks. No doubt Space Batman, Space Achilles, Space Construction Worker, and Space Tee-hee are all cool, but there's just something about Sanguinius that makes him so frakkin awesome


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@ Coolyo, Why Perturabo because he is one of the ones I'm really considering

I like Angron. I think that his hyper-aggressive stance conceals a surprising intellect. As a pre-Heresy group, he'd be one of the first I would consider.

Alpharius/Omegon is another great option, really. I like their style. The only way to do an Alpha Legion and do it justice, though, is to make all of the Marines as identical as possible.

I have always wanted to do an Alpha Legion army after reading the book Legion. I just love how nobody ever seems to know what they are up to or what their end game is. Hell nobody even knows where their homeworld is or if their primarchs are really dead or not. They are the super spies of the 40k universe.

Magnus the Red is my absolute favorite, but I also like Angron, Perturabo, Sanguinius, and Ferrus Manus.

Magnus the Red because, well first of all I am always attracted to magic-wielders. But A Thousand Sons cemented him as my favorite, he was one of the most charismatic and friendliest of Primarchs, even to mortals, yet had a fatal flaw, his arrogance. Plus he's a giant cyclops with a stare that can kill a Space Marine and gak.

Perturabo is brilliant, his technical knowledge beyond compare, yet bitter. He works hard to ensure the success of the Great Crusade, yet is under-appreciated and never reaps an equal share of the glory. Obviously he is not happy about this, and this of course leads to his betrayal.

Angron is not as one-dimensional as people think. While certainly a raging berserker in combat, he demonstrates a surprising amount of intellect when out of it, as Jimsolo mentioned, he held a justified grudge against the Emperor, and is one of the more tragic Primarchs. He's actually also shown to have a strong code of honor, and is thus moved by Kharn when he refuses to fight back against Angron, despite his warrior nature, simply because he was honour-bound not to.

Ferrus Manus is just manly. All the time. ALL THE TIME. Drowns Necron constructs under magma and now has hands made of Living Metal. Fought the Emperor when he found him, and unlike Leman Russ, wasn't knocked unconscious.

I don't think I need to expand on why Sanguinius is awesome. Badass and utterly pure, possibly the most undeniably decent of the Primarchs, possessing both valour, courage, loyalty, and above all, humility.

The Lion, The Wolf, Dorn and Magnus.

I love the relationship between the Lion and the Wolf, bitter rivalry that grew into genuine brotherhood and respect before the HH.

Dorn is a siege master, just plain awesome!

Magnus the Red is just too tragic not to feel piety for, did all the wrong things for all the right reasons.

Id say Angel-boy...dunno maybe the wings or the facts that he is plain awesome? Also Perturabo cause he is the unwanted child and not appreciated...

LEMAN RUSS! SPACE VIKINGS! Oh, seriously though, how do you pronounce Roboute Guillman?

Horus is good, I have always liked the idea of a loyalist Luna Wolves army.

BLOODCLAWallday wrote:LEMAN RUSS! SPACE VIKINGS! Oh, seriously though, how do you pronounce Roboute Guillman?

Row-Bute Gi-a-man

My personal favorites would be Sanguinius and Fulgrum. I think I have a soft spot for tragic heroes.

Fulgrim's a tragic villain, not a tragic hero. But, yeah, he or Alpharius would be my choices. Precise tactics and such.

Gotta be Kurze.
A.D.B. has fleshed out such an intense and complex character, he seriously deserves a ton of credit for taking "space batman" and making him interesting.
But seriously, Kurze.

Kurze, Sangy, Mortarion or Magnus. Thousand sons could be played with GK, Blood Angels with their own dex, Chaos or vanilla for mortarion, and probably blood angels for night lords as well.

No preference, they all taste good

My current favorite, Lorgar, didn't become interesting until the Heresy, and the Word Bearers were just boring before turning traitor.

The five that really seemed like they had character were Manus, Magnus, Kurze, Angron and Perturabo.
Manus was just too manly and awesome not to like. He was a hammer in the shape of an eagles head, can craft solid steel weapons using his fists, which are made out of living metal after he drowned what can only be described as a huge Necron construct in lava. Not too keen on the whole replacing body-parts with augments, but I'd gladly make a successor chapter that held the opposite view.

Magnus is cool simply because he was so powerful. And red. He could duel with Warlord sized Titan machines thanks to his power. The Thousand Sons too, their colour scheme and Egyptian themes really appeal to me personally.

Kurze and the Night Lords are just ace after reading their book series. Kurze was changed from Space Batman into a quite complex character. Verging from motivated clarity to absolute madness.

Dunno why Angron is cool. Maybe it's because he's so angry even his name reflects it? The World Eaters are just a band of enraged killers, led by a raging, angry lunatic. With an axe that probably stand taller than a fully grown man.

The Iron Warriors for their colour scheme, their specialty in sieges, and because Iron is a strong word that sounds cool.

But really, what makes some Legions stand out IS the Heresy. The Word Bearers went from boring the top of the pile thanks to turning traitor. All traitor Legions appeal more because of it, whether it's the blood-soaked lunacy of the World Eaters finally being unleashed fully, or the tragic fall of the Thousand Sons and Night Lords.

Magnus, fulgrim in close second.

Mortarion, 12 feet tall and can sneak up on anyone.

Kurze.
He's the goddamned night haunter.

I voted for Alpharius, though I was tempted to go with Magnus, Kurze, Mortarion, Kahn or Russ.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Kurze.
He's the goddamned night haunter.

I do so love to the point explanations

Ex: Ferrus Manus because he was so manly, he was 2 different species

iproxtaco wrote:Magnus is cool simply because he was so powerful. And red. He could duel with larger than Warlord sized Titan machines thanks to his power. The Thousand Sons too, their colour scheme and Egyptian themes really appeal to me personally.

Fixed.

Yeah, no Primarch was more convincingly godlike than Magnus the Red.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Magnus is cool simply because he was so powerful. And red. He could duel with larger than Warlord sized Titan machines thanks to his power. The Thousand Sons too, their colour scheme and Egyptian themes really appeal to me personally.

Fixed.

Yeah, no Primarch was more convincingly godlike than Magnus the Red.

Not to mention he raised an ocean to hold off the space wolves, that's pretty biblical as well.

IIRC he turned it to acid, actually.

He could also halt time, or at least all activity, on a planet with a thought.

Had to go with the Wolf, because Space Viking Werewolves are pretty much Awesome on Toast.

Rowboat Girlyman because. well, Ultras. They're the best for a reason.

Is that reason that they ate the II or IX (cant recall which)?

My next pick would be Corax.
He's possibly the most intelligent strategy wise of the lot (you know, because he avoids unnecessary combat and if engaged in combat will try to end it quickly and decisively).
And I'm a sucker for Poe.

Lemun Russ is also pretty cool I guess. Sure he might be a bit of a jerk, but he is a Viking. And I friggen love Vikings.

Was Corax a good fighter though. I know he had a brilliant tactical mind, but I'm not sure how he would do in a fight.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Was Corax a good fighter though. I know he had a brilliant tactical mind, but I'm not sure how he would do in a fight.

He beat Lorgar's ass right and proper.

Always nice to see Lorgar getting his ass beaten. Now was this regular or daemon Lorgar?

Void__Dragon wrote:IIRC he turned it to acid, actually.

He could also halt time, or at least all activity, on a planet with a thought.

I'd assume it was a pretty big thought though.

Alpharius and Omegon This is no contest for me lol.

Lot of support for the dynamic duo, anyone care to explain further?

They're an unusual pair in that they're both well-written and mysterious. None of the other traitor primarchs (save possibly Kurze, I haven't read his stuff yet) have managed to pull it off. They also are among the vaunted few that have retained the godly air associated with primarchs, instead of a spoiled rich kid bitching about how daddy doesn't love him.

Thanks, I haven't really looked into them past "Tee-hee look at how sneaky we are, is there one two red blue nobody knows muahhahahahahaha"

That does seem to be how they were originally portrayed... Hopefully there'll be some new fluff giving the current Alphas some hint of their good/evil intentions.

What I don't get is why everyone likes Dorn. What did he do that's so special?

Thats not alpharius that is Magnus.

Asherian Command wrote:Thats not alpharius that is Magnus.

Yeah, just saw the accidental horrors reference there, woops


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:What I don't get is why everyone likes Dorn. What did he do that's so special?

And I was just about to ask that myself. Never got why so many people like bumblebees

TheAngrySquig wrote:Always nice to see Lorgar getting his ass beaten. Now was this regular or daemon Lorgar?

Regular. Then Corax tried to run away from the Night Hanuter.

iproxtaco wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Always nice to see Lorgar getting his ass beaten. Now was this regular or daemon Lorgar?

Regular. Then Corax tried to run away from the Night Hanuter.

Who wouldn't? Kurze could beat down Lion, so I think he could handle Corax

Did ol' Konrad only sit on Dorn chest after ripping some bits out? Don't remember him fighting the Lion....

Initially I would say Dorn cause he is a beast,

but lately I've been thinking that Corax is a badass like how he never spoke unless it was necessary and he went into the eye of terror by himself to go redeem the souls of the mutant marines he made by accedent.
"Nevermore", Corax (bad...wait for it... ass)


Sanguinius had wings so he has that going for him, who wouldn't want friggin angel wings and fly into battle.

Ferrus Manus has metal hands, why because he drowned a metal serpent thing in lava, how tank do you have to be.

The lion, what can you say that is bad about him

Leman Russ, The Wolf of Fenris, he is an animal, whats not to like.

Horus was pretty cool before you know he had to go all evil and such.

DornFist wrote:The lion, what can you say that is bad about him

He's a treacherous sociopath with no sense of empathy or loyalty to anyone?

Leman Russ, The Wolf of Fenris, he is an animal, whats not to like.

He's a hypocritical savage with an intense hatred for reading or thinking in general?

You did ask.

Kurze. His story is the deepest of all the primarchs, and ADB has portrayed him perfectly.

I am a bit more curious about the love or Dorn. From what I read he was an extremely stuck up daddies boy. Hell he basically butchered his chapter against a killing ground created by Perturabo just because he thought that the emperor dying was his fault. Not to mention he was so stuck up he got miffed about the whole codex astartes (look I would be too, I mean who does rober guilman think he is to go ordering everyone else about) but being all weepy and getting around it with the black templars is just childish.

I am also curious why people like Horus. He was war-master, but his personality just seemed so plain. If anything he really only became interesting when he turned to chaos.

I'll probably be hung drawn and quatered for this, but I love Guilliman. Yes, he's made to be the perfect child that everybody hates, but I think that he did what the Primarch's were made for. He wasn't afraid to take control after daddy died and he was undeniably a great general. He just seems to be a mini Emprah.

But other than that, I've always liked Magnus, he only wanted to help, and he was amazingly powerful, he just never got a chance to shine. And as for the way he got bullied by Russ, you can't blame him for wanting to do things his own way for once.

The only point I'll make against Guilliman is that he alienated one of the best tacticians the Imperium has ever known because he wouldn't follow the Codex unquestioningly.

DornFist wrote: I've been thinking that Corax is a badass like how he never spoke unless it was necessary and he went into the eye of terror by himself to go redeem the souls of the mutant marines he made by accident.
"Nevermore", Corax (bad...wait for it... ass)

Yeah, nothing says badass like quoting Poe.

The lion, what can you say that is bad about him

He had no understanding of people and banished his adopted father for having a moment of jealousy?

Leman Russ, The Wolf of Fenris, he is an animal, whats not to like.

He's a savage who was all too willing to be manipulated into attempting to destroy a loyal legion?

Horus was pretty cool before you know he had to go all evil and such.

Apart from being arrogant.

Ok when people state the option: "Rowboat Girlyman" I am getting sick. So what if Ultramrines are poster boys? the fact isa that their chapter is legendary and heroic and that their Primarch saved the Imperium after the heresy.

Brother Coa wrote:Ok when people state the option: "Rowboat Girlyman" I am getting sick. So what if Ultramrines are poster boys? the fact isa that their chapter is legendary and heroic and that their Primarch saved the Imperium after the heresy.

I dont like Ultramarines, but Im getting sick of it too.

i voted for the lion because the DA were what attracted me to playing SM way back when, but now that i'm a servant of chaos, I have to go with fulgrim or angron.

probably fulgrim.

I voted Sanguinius, he got me in 40k.

BrainDeleted wrote:Did ol' Konrad only sit on Dorn chest after ripping some bits out? Don't remember him fighting the Lion....

In the last story from AoD, Savage Weapons, Kurze basically kicks the crap out of him

I like a lot of the primarchs, but i have to say, Sanguinius is my favorite.

vulkan, because he burns stuff, and has the right balance of tech (iron hands primarch too much tech)

Mortarion is my fav!!!!!!

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I am a bit more curious about the love or Dorn. From what I read he was an extremely stuck up daddies boy. Hell he basically butchered his chapter against a killing ground created by Perturabo just because he thought that the emperor dying was his fault. Not to mention he was so stuck up he got miffed about the whole codex astartes (look I would be too, I mean who does rober guilman think he is to go ordering everyone else about) but being all weepy and getting around it with the black templars is just childish.

Dorn's own chapter is the second-most codex adherent of the founding chapters, and Sigismund and the most zealous Black Templars probably shaped the chapter into what it is today: The marines who still go on crusades for the Emperor. They're like Dorn, too attached to the past yet unwilling to yield.

Dorn's flaws are what make me like him. He's brave, but to the point of foolishness. He's incredibly intelligent, yet he's stubborn as an ox. He's the relic of an age past, and he knows it. But unlike characters such as the Lion, Guilliman, or Russ, his flaws are presented just as much as his strengths.

Brother Coa wrote:Ok when people state the option: "Rowboat Girlyman" I am getting sick. So what if Ultramrines are poster boys? the fact isa that their chapter is legendary and heroic and that their Primarch saved the Imperium after the heresy.

It's a nickname that sticks.

I have nothing against Guilliman (Even though I'm a Dorn fan), but it's fun to write Rowboat Girlyman.

I think the Lion's flaws are presented pretty well.

Remulus wrote: I like a lot of the primarchs, but i have to say, Sanguinius is my favorite.

Good sir!

Brother Coa wrote:Ok when people state the option: "Rowboat Girlyman" I am getting sick. So what if Ultramrines are poster boys? the fact isa that their chapter is legendary and heroic and that their Primarch saved the Imperium after the heresy.

Molten Butter wrote:I have nothing against Guilliman (Even though I'm a Dorn fan), but it's fun to write Rowboat Girlyman.

I don't mind that the Ultramarines are poster boys or anything about them, I just dont know how to spell it the legit way, and I spend to much time on 1d4chan

Void__Dragon wrote:

DornFist wrote:The lion, what can you say that is bad about him

He's a treacherous sociopath with no sense of empathy or loyalty to anyone?

Leman Russ, The Wolf of Fenris, he is an animal, whats not to like.

He's a hypocritical savage with an intense hatred for reading or thinking in general?

You did ask.

I did indeed ask and I thank you for your opinion, I still think there beast


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Durza wrote:The only point I'll make against Guilliman is that he alienated one of the best tacticians the Imperium has ever known because he wouldn't follow the Codex unquestioningly.

DornFist wrote: I've been thinking that Corax is a badass like how he never spoke unless it was necessary and he went into the eye of terror by himself to go redeem the souls of the mutant marines he made by accident.
"Nevermore", Corax (bad...wait for it... ass)

Yeah, nothing says badass like quoting Poe.

You know I hadn't read The Raven when i posted this but after I saw you comment I read it, magnificent.

I'm a little surprised that not many votes have been put in for Khan, hes kind of a boss.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I'm a little surprised that not many votes have been put in for Khan, hes kind of a boss.

It's because I can recall precisely nothing Khan has done.

He effectively halved the amount of Chaos Space Marines on Terra.

Lion El'Jonson, Ferrus Manus and Magnus the Red are probably my 3 favorite primarchs.

TheAngrySquig wrote:He effectively halved the amount of Chaos Space Marines on Terra.

He slowed down the influx of reinforcements when he led an attack on the Lions Gate Spaceport during the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. It's a bit different from halving the number of Chaos Astartes on the planet.

Vulkan, Corax, Kurze and Perturabo.

Vulkan, cause Salamanders are badass, and the dude dual wields thunder hammers.

Corax, he killed iron warriors by throwing small rocks at them, what more do I need to say?

Kurza, Space Batman and all that.

Perturabo, grumpy siege master, I bet his daemon world has a giant GET OFF MY LAWN sign.

I like the Night Haunter.

"The forces of Khan were present on Terra during the siege of the Emperor's palace. They recaptured one of the major space ports from Chaos to halve the reinforcements they could land on the planet. It is said that the Khan was leading his warriors from the top of a Razorback, a sight which became a tale that has been told in awe ever since." Direct quote from Lexicanum.

Mortarion all the way! Nobody ever makes a legion based of this guy as well, so its bound to be epic!

TheAngrySquig wrote:"The forces of Khan were present on Terra during the siege of the Emperor's palace. They recaptured one of the major space ports from Chaos to halve the reinforcements they could land on the planet. It is said that the Khan was leading his warriors from the top of a Razorback, a sight which became a tale that has been told in awe ever since." Direct quote from Lexicanum.

Only a true badass surfs on the back of a Razorback.

TheAngrySquig wrote:"The forces of Khan were present on Terra during the siege of the Emperor's palace. They recaptured one of the major space ports from Chaos to halve the reinforcements they could land on the planet. It is said that the Khan was leading his warriors from the top of a Razorback, a sight which became a tale that has been told in awe ever since." Direct quote from Lexicanum.

Yes, he halved the flow of reinforcements and supplies. He did not half the number of Traitor Astartes on the planet - a large number were already down on the ground.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Mortarion all the way! Nobody ever makes a legion based of this guy as well, so its bound to be epic!

What about the Death Guard?

Mortarion and the Death Guards main issue is their color scheme isn't great. Any opinions on Fulgrim and the EC

If Fulgrim hadn't been from Fulgrim's point of view, they would probably seem a lot more like tragically corrupted heroes.

Ignoring the whole 'there's nothing wrong with hearing voices and talking to paintings' episode, I like their ideals and their drive to perfection.

Dorn all the way

I do like the EC perfectionist complex. But the Iron Warriors are also pretty cool.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I do like the EC perfectionist complex. But the Iron Warriors are also pretty cool.

The only thing that stopped me using them was their colours. BEWARE THE CONSTRUCTION MARKS OF DOOM!

I kinda like it, its like there saying, "CAUTION! WE'RE ABOUT TO KICK YOUR ASS!"

Much more subtle than the World Eaters about it then...

Lion he was raised in the woods of (can't remember the name of his planet dang it ill go execute myself now i failed my primarch) he beat down warp spaned godness on that planet (death world) then he ko'd lemen russ in one punch durring a fight that lasted several days.

Soladrin wrote:Vulkan, Corax, Kurze and Perturabo.

Vulkan, cause Salamanders are badass, and the dude dual wields thunder hammers.

Corax, he killed iron warriors by throwing small rocks at them, what more do I need to say?

Kurza, Space Batman and all that.

Perturabo, grumpy siege master, I bet his daemon world has a giant GET OFF MY LAWN sign.

Dude, how could you mention Vulkan and not bring up him using tanks as projectile weapons!?

Dude THROWS TANKS!

Did he actually full blown throw a tank, or was it more like cow tipping?

Hulk style, baby.

Magnus, Mortarion and Perturabo.

Sanguinius, though Lion El'Johnson is a close second.

Soladrin wrote:Vulkan, Corax, Kurze and Perturabo.

Vulkan, cause Salamanders are badass, and the dude dual wields thunder hammers.

Corax, he killed iron warriors by throwing small rocks at them, what more do I need to say?

Kurza, Space Batman and all that.

Perturabo, grumpy siege master, I bet his daemon world has a giant GET OFF MY LAWN sign.

\

Where does it say Corax killed people with small rocks? Would really like to read this!


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Seems to me the primarchs with the fewest votes are the one that not many have heard about, and the preacher.

Other than that it's a pretty close race.

Personally, I only have ones I don't like, probably the Lion and perturabo or fulgrim... I keep getting those two mixed up

Sanguinius! He was pretty awesome.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Vulkan, Corax, Kurze and Perturabo.

Vulkan, cause Salamanders are badass, and the dude dual wields thunder hammers.

Corax, he killed iron warriors by throwing small rocks at them, what more do I need to say?

Kurza, Space Batman and all that.

Perturabo, grumpy siege master, I bet his daemon world has a giant GET OFF MY LAWN sign.

\

Where does it say Corax killed people with small rocks? Would really like to read this!


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Seems to me the primarchs with the fewest votes are the one that not many have heard about, and the preacher.

Other than that it's a pretty close race.

Personally, I only have ones I don't like, probably the Lion and perturabo or fulgrim... I keep getting those two mixed up

You can't read it, cause it's from an Audio drama Raven's Flight. Half of the Primarchs are more mystery then anything else atm.

Favorite would have to be Magnus, always, his Legion's story is the best and their fall the most tragic

Runners up would have to be: Guilliman, for being so damn capable, despite coming across as a prick. Sanguinius, for being the most noble and heroic of them all.

Alpharius probably comes next, sitting so low because we just don't know that much about what his Legion is up to or their real motivation.

The Night Haunter is interesting in his own way. His split personality and prophetic visions make him more complex than the average Primarch.

Angron and Perturabo get the sympathy card. Both were royally screwed over.

Not a big fan of Lorgar or Fulgrim, both being easily-manipulated, weak-willed pussies.

Strongly dislike Russ and his Wolves for being ignorant savages/bad caricatures of Vikings (who themselves are caricatures).

Absolutely loathe the Lion, betrayer of his own Legion and his closest friends. He deserved everything he got and more, and Luther should not feel sorry at all for what he did. Seriously, feth Lion'el.

Omegus wrote: Absolutely loathe the Lion, betrayer of his own Legion and his closest friends. He deserved everything he got and more, and Luther should not feel sorry at all for what he did. Seriously, feth Lion'el.

You have no idea how many times this statement has been said amongst my friends. One guy likes him and everyone else is like, "feth the Lion, [insert personal favorite here] is the way to go."

Omegus wrote:Absolutely loathe the Lion, betrayer of his own Legion and his closest friends. He deserved everything he got and more, and Luther should not feel sorry at all for what he did. Seriously, feth Lion'el.

IMO that's what makes the Lion interesting. The story doesn't try to gloss the fact that he's, for lack of better phrase to use, a treacherous sociopath. Though yeah, damning half his Legion and his best friend? Dude's rightly a dick.

He's no doubt interesting, but hes a huge dill weed

Soladrin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Vulkan, Corax, Kurze and Perturabo.

Vulkan, cause Salamanders are badass, and the dude dual wields thunder hammers.

Corax, he killed iron warriors by throwing small rocks at them, what more do I need to say?

Kurza, Space Batman and all that.

Perturabo, grumpy siege master, I bet his daemon world has a giant GET OFF MY LAWN sign.

\

Where does it say Corax killed people with small rocks? Would really like to read this!


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Seems to me the primarchs with the fewest votes are the one that not many have heard about, and the preacher.

Other than that it's a pretty close race.

Personally, I only have ones I don't like, probably the Lion and perturabo or fulgrim... I keep getting those two mixed up

You can't read it, cause it's from an Audio drama Raven's Flight. Half of the Primarchs are more mystery then anything else atm.

Curses!!! Oh well, bumps Corax up a little higher on my list

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did he actually full blown throw a tank, or was it more like cow tipping?

He basically pushed a Demolisher over and punched it open, but it was described later that he was batting and smacking tanks around as if they were children's toys.

Being the physically strongest primarch, along with Ferrus, I would say it's perfectly reasonable that he could hurl tanks around.

I've never heard that. Where is Vulkan and Ferrus being the strongest Primarchs stated?

iproxtaco wrote:I've never heard that. Where is Vulkan and Ferrus being the strongest Primarchs stated?

In the short story, "Forgotten Sons" in Age of Darkness.

"Vulkan was enraged, batting tanks aside like children's toys. He was not the most gifted swordsman, nor was he a master strategist or a psyker of any note, but his strength and fortitude...in that, the Eighteenth Primarch was unrivalled.

Had Ferrus Manus lived there might be cause for debate, but with the Iron Hands primarch's head lying seperate from his body in the shrinking snow, that point was now moot."

I dunno, I'd have thought Russ, the Lion and definitely Angron would be contendors for the most physcially strong Primarchs. Then there's Magnus, who was the biggest of them all.

iproxtaco wrote:I dunno, I'd have thought Russ, the Lion and definitely Angron would be contendors for the most physcially strong Primarchs. Then there's Magnus, who was the biggest of them all.

Well, Ferrus Manus was described at several times in Fulgrim as capable of demolishing mountains with his blows, his fight with the Emperor when they first met wrecked mountain ranges apparently, and he took a blow to the head from Fulgrim's hammer like a boss.

While I don't know about as much Vulkan, he did apparently survive a Nova cannon.

I don't really recall the other primarchs doing that kind of stuff, except for when in A Thousand Sons it was stated a mountain was wrecked by Magnus training with his brothers or something.

iproxtaco wrote:I dunno, I'd have thought Russ, the Lion and definitely Angron would be contendors for the most physcially strong Primarchs. Then there's Magnus, who was the biggest of them all.

Russ was strong, but Vulkan and Ferrus were still stronger. Angron and Lion were both better fighters, but in base strength, Vulkan and Ferrus were better. Magnus was big, but not notedly strong.

Vulkan and Ferrus are supposed to be the most physically strong just in terms of brutal, unadulterated force. Angron, Russ, and the Lion are more skilled fighters (Probably) and also insanely strong but those two are supposed to be the strongest in terms of raw muscle. Now, Angron in full rage mode...Probably got enough raw force to really rival them but Vulkan and Ferrus don't need to tap into their inner reservoirs of molten hulk-like rage lakes to be super strong, they just are. Ferrus spent his free time basically finding stuff to bench press (And he's got metal hands!) before the Emp got to Medusa and Vulkan...He's just Vulkan. It's hammer time! I'm sure Magnus could have been strong enough to be as good or better, being a freak giant and all but he didn't spend his free time hammering beastly amounts of insane metal on an anvil or benching mountains. Instead, he was reading.......

I:Thank you Mr.Vulkan for coming to your performance review.
V:No problem
I:Is it fair to say your in charge around here?
V:Absolutely, I'm the Primarch.
I:Well take us through a day in the life of "The Primarch"
V:Well the first thing is DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS!
I:LIKE A BOSS
V:FLIP A TANK!
I:LIKE A BOSS

FinalAnswer wrote:
"Vulkan was enraged, batting tanks aside like children's toys. He was not the most gifted swordsman, nor was he a master strategist or a psyker of any note, but his strength and fortitude...in that, the Eighteenth Primarch was unrivalled."

I remember reading that too, and it just made me facepalm all the more over the Emperor's decision. I mean, sure, he's great and strong and can wreck stuff. But if someone is not a "master strategist", they should probably not be leading thousands of killing machines in battle.

I chose Guilliman, Dorn and Russ

Omegus wrote:

FinalAnswer wrote:
"Vulkan was enraged, batting tanks aside like children's toys. He was not the most gifted swordsman, nor was he a master strategist or a psyker of any note, but his strength and fortitude...in that, the Eighteenth Primarch was unrivalled."

I remember reading that too, and it just made me facepalm all the more over the Emperor's decision. I mean, sure, he's great and strong and can wreck stuff. But if someone is not a "master strategist", they should probably not be leading thousands of killing machines in battle.

I took it that it meant that Vulkan was not a master strategist like, say, Roboute or Lion, or Alpharius. Being a Primarch, I would assume that Vulkan would still be a competent leader and tactician.

His legions track record speaks for his tactical win

iproxtaco wrote:I dunno, I'd have thought Russ, the Lion and definitely Angron would be contendors for the most physcially strong Primarchs. Then there's Magnus, who was the biggest of them all.

The Lion is actually explicitly noted to be physically weaker but quicker than Leman Russ IIRC, but I'd have to get back to you on the source for that. Magnus in turn was actually noted as possessing strength rivaling Russ, in Index Astartes, exclusive of his psychic power. And remember, Ferrus Manus in particular was possibly the largest Primarch short of Magnus himself.

Angron gets enough hype for us to say he is one of the strongest in martial combat, but nothing points to him being especially physically strong, though I guess it would be logical to assume he was stronger than average.

Sanguinius. I always like how his personality is portrayed.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I dunno, I'd have thought Russ, the Lion and definitely Angron would be contendors for the most physcially strong Primarchs. Then there's Magnus, who was the biggest of them all.

The Lion is actually explicitly noted to be physically weaker but quicker than Leman Russ IIRC, but I'd have to get back to you on the source for that. Magnus in turn was actually noted as possessing strength rivaling Russ, in Index Astartes, exclusive of his psychic power. And remember, Ferrus Manus in particular was possibly the largest Primarch short of Magnus himself.

Angron gets enough hype for us to say he is one of the strongest in martial combat, but nothing points to him being especially physically strong, though I guess it would be logical to assume he was stronger than average.

He had to have been pretty strong to kill marines in power armour with his bare hands, even if they weren't all that eager to kill him. And he broke Kharn up pretty badly without much effort.

Ok...so Vulkan can throw tanks around...and he wears Green armor.

Holy , he's the incredible hulk 40k style.

Does the Hulk like fire?

And Angron is Red Hulk

Durza wrote:He had to have been pretty strong to kill marines in power armour with his bare hands, even if they weren't all that eager to kill him. And he broke Kharn up pretty badly without much effort.

Not necessarily. Dorn messed up Garro pretty good without even intent to kill, and Curze pretty much broke a Dark Angel with a swat. Killing marines in their power armor with their bare hands seems pretty standard to most Primarchs, at least to me.

Durza wrote:He had to have been pretty strong to kill marines in power armour with his bare hands, even if they weren't all that eager to kill him. And he broke Kharn up pretty badly without much effort.

I was speaking relative to other Primarchs.

Ferrus Manus could punch through Terminator armour as though it were paper, and Fulgrim even outright states that, after Manus punched Fulgrim in the face,"Manus through a punch that could shatter Tactical Dreadnought Armour, but could only bruise the skin of a Primarch."

Though remember, Kharn and friends weren't actually wearing power armour, at least IIRC.

Though Angron could have killed him at any time, that much is clear.

Sanguinius, wisest of the primarchs (though they were all wise in their own way) i also like Magnus, and respected Horus before he turned traitor, my least favourite was Lorgar because of his.. decisions when looking for a new deity to follow (plus i don't like that he punched Malcador the Sigillite)

So where does one find this data on the Lion being the betrayer and not Luther?

The Lion the Wolf the Wizard and the Wardrobe? (pretty boy Fulgrim had outfits for all occasions.)

Also I think Fulgrim isn't getting to much love, anyone care to explain

TheAngrySquig wrote:Also I think Fulgrim isn't getting to much love, anyone care to explain

He's a massive douche?

Not a massive douche... just a regular one that was put in control of an army of superhumans. And his only representation in the Heresy series is the book where he decided that hearing voices coming from a sword and a painting is totally ok.

Durza wrote:Not a massive douche... just a regular one that was put in control of an army of superhumans. And his only representation in the Heresy series is the book where he decided that hearing voices coming from a sword and a painting is totally ok.

Only he was a douche before he ever picked up the Laer sword, honestly.

Ferrus, he rejected the whole Heresy outright, no consideration, not sparing a seconds thought and had no compunction telling the man in the universe he most admired to GTFO. A true believer in Loyalty, Loyalty to the bitter end. He was utterly fearless, smashing into 3 Legions on his own and when Betrayed rather than surrender or retreat like the other 2 Legions committed fully to Assaulting the Heretics. He was killed, but he embodied everything of "Hector" from the Illiyad.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:Not a massive douche... just a regular one that was put in control of an army of superhumans. And his only representation in the Heresy series is the book where he decided that hearing voices coming from a sword and a painting is totally ok.

Only he was a douche before he ever picked up the Laer sword, honestly.

Yeah, but at least then he was a likeable douche. 'Oh, you're crafting a weapon and have been training as a blacksmith for years? Well then, I'd better make a better one!'

mwnciboo wrote:Ferrus, he rejected the whole Heresy outright, no consideration, not sparing a seconds thought and had no compunction telling the man in the universe he most admired to GTFO. A true believer in Loyalty, Loyalty to the bitter end. He was utterly fearless, smashing into 3 Legions on his own and when Betrayed rather than surrender or retreat like the other 2 Legions committed fully to Assaulting the Heretics. He was killed, but he embodied everything of "Hector" from the Illiyad.

Belied strongly by stubbornness. Ferrus is a manly man, his fists are made of metal and can make metal explode just by touching it. He's the possibly the strongest Priamrch physically, but he's stubborn. He's not a thinker, or philosopher, the very question of betrayal was ludicrous. It's his greatest strength, and his greatest weakness. Like a boulder rolling down a hill, you can think your way past and move, or stay and try to stop it.

Horus as he had the greatest legion and was closest to the Emperor ^.^ also he can kick two feths of crap out of the other primarchs, apart from Sanguinius and Angron and maybe Leman Russ or Magnus, they would have had a close fight. HOOOOOORUS!

The inclusion of Russ being a case of personal opinion, of course.

iproxtaco wrote:The inclusion of Russ being a case of personal opinion, of course.

Maybe... Did my name give it away?
No its just because Magnus was kickass and Russ beat him, must be on par

Id vote for Count Prettyboy (Fulgrim)

Wait Iproxtaco I just read your post on General Discussion, I now understand about the whole Prospero thing
Horus still my favourite, he would not have struggled to kill russ

Although Russ may or may not have killed two Primarches. Which may or may not tie him for most all time Primarch kills with Fulgrim. The Primarches are mostly all equal with their own specialties. They all get beat by extenuating circumstances pretty much.

The Son Of Russ wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The inclusion of Russ being a case of personal opinion, of course.

Maybe... Did my name give it away?
No its just because Magnus was kickass and Russ beat him, must be on par

Hur, that tongue in my cheek. In all seriousness, there's gap between how good the Primarchs are. We have a statement from Corax saying only Horus and perhaps Sanguinus could best Angron, we know the Lion is equal to Russ, that Ferrus and Fulgrim are also equal, that Curze could beat the Lion and Dorn and that Vulkan and Ferrus are the most physically strong Primarchs. And we know Lorgar is a powerful psyker that at hadn't really harnessed his potential at any point that could rate him next to the others. If you were to put them all in a big battle royale, the top five left at the end would likely be Horus, Angron, Sanguinus, Magnus and porbably either Curze or the two physically strongest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:Although Russ may or may not have killed two Primarches. Which may or may not tie him for most all time Primarch kills with Fulgrim. The Primarches are mostly all equal with their own specialties. They all get beat by extenuating circumstances pretty much.

He bested one that wasn't paying full attention due to luck, and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest he killed another.

I think that in general battles between Primarchs can't be thought of in A>B>C terms, and context should be considered.

For instance, Curze did beat the Lion, when the fight became a brawl. Using his sword against Curze's lightning claws though, the Lion wasn't just beating Curze, he was completely dominating him.

Also consider that when Curze took out Dorn, not only was Dorn taken down by a sneak attack IIRC, but Dorn wasn't armed or armoured, wearing robes and gak.

Similarly, Russ and the Lion were shown to basically be equals, when fighting bare-handed. So we can confidently say that Curze would be better than both in a brawl. But with weapons? As we saw with the Lion, no, and with Russ we can't really say.

Though, we can roughly rank them. For instance, Angron, Sanguinius, and Horus seem to be considered the best in martial combat, if Corax's word means anything. Whereas Magnus the Red, while also being physically strong and a capable fighter, bolsters that with immense psychic power and finesse.

But Ive gone off-topic. Yeah, Ferrus Manus is a manly man who is a man, not exactly stupid, but stubborn and completely headstrong. He also shared another trait with Fulgrim, perfectionism. But while Fulgrim was a sissy girl and couldn't handle criticism, Ferrus Manus viewed criticism as vital, if you point out the flaws, then you can work to improve upon them.

Just another note on why Ferrus is a boss.

That's kind of what I meant, but didn't put it across very well. Rough rankings can be given if there was some huge hypothetical battle between them all, but generalized against one another they all appear roughly equal aside from Horus, who was just good at everything. Some people say he was average at everything, but he's the best Primarch, not the average Primarch. He was extremely good in a fight, a highly capable commander, an unparalleled politician. Each Primarch had that one thing they were excellent at, and average at most other things, Horus was good at them all, he is the best Primarch hands down. But I digress, this is about personal preference more than anything else.

iproxtaco wrote:That's kind of what I meant, but didn't put it across very well. Rough rankings can be given if there was some huge hypothetical battle between them all, but generalized against one another they all appear roughly equal aside from Horus, who was just good at everything. Some people say he was average at everything, but he's the best Primarch, not the average Primarch. He was extremely good in a fight, a highly capable commander, an unparalleled politician. Each Primarch had that one thing they were excellent at, and average at most other things, Horus was good at them all, he is the best Primarch hands down. But I digress, this is about personal preference more than anything else.

Horus didn't appear to be much of an active psyker. Or an active psyker at all, really.

Though yes, overall Horus was the most capable Primarch.

Dorn all the way

iproxtaco wrote:He bested one that wasn't paying full attention due to luck, and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest he killed another.

Ignoring the suggestions that Russ and the Wolves were the ones responsible for disposing of the two missing Primarches, yes, there's no evidence to suggest that at all. Besides, I didn't say he did do it or that he's the best Primarch. I was just putting it out there as food for thought.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Ferrus Manus is a manly man who is a man, not exactly stupid, but stubborn and completely headstrong. He also shared another trait with Fulgrim, perfectionism. But while Fulgrim was a sissy girl and couldn't handle criticism, Ferrus Manus viewed criticism as vital, if you point out the flaws, then you can work to improve upon them.

Really good way to put it, also a good insight into why the two of them were best buds pre-heresy...In a sort of weird way. He's totally one of my favorite out of them! It's one of the reasons I hate Fulgrim so much other than him killing Ferrus, they're like two sides of a coin.

Void__Dragon wrote:Horus didn't appear to be much of an active psyker. Or an active psyker at all, really.

Though yes, overall Horus was the most capable Primarch.

Until he was infused with the powers of Chaos. He was then an extremely capable psyker almost on par with the Emp himself. Didn't he kill a Custode/Space Marine/Ollanius Pius in the most painful way possible with but a glance during their fight and that's when the Big E realized he was beyond redemption?

Horus had pretty low loyalty and will power qualities. Also, there's nothing suggesting that he was a great creator like some of the other Primarches. I think he was the most capable Primarch in terms of Strategy and Tactics while we have nothing to go on other than Corax's word when it comes to raw power in a fight. It's probably safe to assume his great mind for tactics would have made him a formidable duelist when combined with the standard Primarch awesomeness so Corax's word can probably be trusted...But he wasn't better than every Primarch in everyway. I think Horus represents what the Emperor wanted from his Primarches the most though since he spent the most time with the Emp and was molded mostly by the Emp himself and not by the population of the planet he was scattered to like the others.

BrainDeleted wrote:Ignoring the suggestions that Russ and the Wolves were the ones responsible for disposing of the two missing Primarches, yes, there's no evidence to suggest that at all. Besides, I didn't say he did do it or that he's the best Primarch. I was just putting it out there as food for thought.

We need context. We have no idea how the two missing Primarchs died, if they did die, and we need to know about the specifics concerning them as well. For all we know both of these Primarchs were like pre-Chaos Lorgar. Which is to say a massive pussy.

Really good way to put it, also a good insight into why the two of them were best buds pre-heresy...In a sort of weird way.

Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Until he was infused with the powers of Chaos. He was then an extremely capable psyker almost on par with the Emp himself. Didn't he kill a Custode/Space Marine/Ollanius Pius in the most painful way possible with but a glance during their fight and that's when the Big E realized he was beyond redemption?

Well yes but Horus by then was infused with the massed powers of the Chaos Gods. Of course he was strongest.

Horus had pretty low loyalty and will power qualities. Also, there's nothing suggesting that he was a great creator like some of the other Primarches. I think he was the most capable Primarch in terms of Strategy and Tactics while we have nothing to go on other than Corax's word when it comes to raw power in a fight. It's probably safe to assume his great mind for tactics would have made him a formidable duelist when combined with the standard Primarch awesomeness so Corax's word can probably be trusted...But he wasn't better than every Primarch in every single way at all.

I'm not sure I'd immediately say Horus had particularly low willpower. Real loyalty? Maybe, but honestly I don't think the Emperor really earned true loyalty. Sure he created them, but he didn't seem to trust them either.

Yeah, I'd say he's not as capable a smithy as Manus, Fulgrim, or Vulkan. Nor does he have the incredible technical knowledge of Perturabo, whose knowledge rivaled any Tech Priest apparently.

To an extent I agree. Oh sure, Corax tells us that Angron and Horus are the gak in martial combat, but really, show don't tell. Angron and Horus have only hype in that regard, as far as I can tell. He's probably strong, but we have yet to see actual evidence for it.

But you are right, Horus wasn't better than every Primarch in everything, just overall the most capable, in making war at least.

He isn't better in every single way, he's simply good in every single way, whilst the other excel at only a few fields and are average at the others. Angron will have fantastic martial capability and will be extremely physically strong, but will be a bad tactical thinker. Horus wont necessarily be better with weapons or physically stronger than Angron, but he will br good in both those fields, and will be a superior commander.

Void__Dragon wrote:We need context. We have no idea how the two missing Primarchs died, if they did die, and we need to know about the specifics concerning them as well. For all we know both of these Primarchs were like pre-Chaos Lorgar. Which is to say a massive pussy.

Yeah...Too bad we'll probably never get it. But I still think the mere suggestion buff Russ a few points. He's the crazy space viking the Emp basically uses as follows: Point in a direction, unleash, hope collateral damage isn't too bad...Or that he doesn't get completely side tracked and end up on a fool's errand.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of creeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not sure I'd immediately say Horus had particularly low willpower. Real loyalty? Maybe, but honestly I don't think the Emperor really earned true loyalty. Sure he created them, but he didn't seem to trust them either.

Yeah, I'd say he's not as capable a smithy as Manus, Fulgrim, or Vulkan. Nor does he have the incredible technical knowledge of Perturabo, whose knowledge rivaled any Tech Priest apparently.

To an extent I agree. Oh sure, Corax tells us that Angron and Horus are the gak in martial combat, but really, show don't tell. Angron and Horus have only hype in that regard, as far as I can tell. He's probably strong, but we have yet to see actual evidence for it.

But you are right, Horus wasn't better than every Primarch in everything, just overall the most capable, in making war at least.

Can't wait for the World Eaters' novel......

And I don't know, it's tough to see how they didn't owe the Emp loyalty. He gave them the most awesome toys in the Galaxy to play with as well as the coolest jobs ever. It's too easy to assume the worst about His mysterious ways. Personally, I think a lot of his secrecy was out of genuine concern for his little boys.

Russ > anything/body


/thread

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Void__Dragon wrote:I think that in general battles between Primarchs can't be thought of in A>B>C terms, and context should be considered.

For instance, Curze did beat the Lion, when the fight became a brawl. Using his sword against Curze's lightning claws though, the Lion wasn't just beating Curze, he was completely dominating him.

Also consider that when Curze took out Dorn, not only was Dorn taken down by a sneak attack IIRC, but Dorn wasn't armed or armoured, wearing robes and gak.

Similarly, Russ and the Lion were shown to basically be equals, when fighting bare-handed. So we can confidently say that Curze would be better than both in a brawl. But with weapons? As we saw with the Lion, no, and with Russ we can't really say.

Though, we can roughly rank them. For instance, Angron, Sanguinius, and Horus seem to be considered the best in martial combat, if Corax's word means anything. Whereas Magnus the Red, while also being physically strong and a capable fighter, bolsters that with immense psychic power and finesse.

But Ive gone off-topic. Yeah, Ferrus Manus is a manly man who is a man, not exactly stupid, but stubborn and completely headstrong. He also shared another trait with Fulgrim, perfectionism. But while Fulgrim was a sissy girl and couldn't handle criticism, Ferrus Manus viewed criticism as vital, if you point out the flaws, then you can work to improve upon them.

Just another note on why Ferrus is a boss.

Probably one of the best ways to describe above primarchs.
I can relate to Fulgrim, so after that, I think I actually have a better outlook on him. Sissy whiney bugger, who tried but couldn't stand the pressure. Sounds a lot better than sissy whiney bugger, who's also whiney.

Obviously whatever corax says is truth he's a raven right? They're some smart cookies.

Corax whooped Lorgar's arse, He was about to kill him, before Konrad intervened and Konrad didn't even have the stones to finish Corax. Corax is pretty mean.

Lorgar is a complete bum ferret.

Kurze, Sangy or Magnus

It could only be Magnus.

And reading 'a thousand sons' only reinforced it, stupid wolves......

Is Dorn the only one to die to run of the mill circumstances or were there more?

I got the feeling Dorn more or less committed suicide.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Is Dorn the only one to die to run of the mill circumstances or were there more?

The second Primarch tripped on a rock upon getting out of his pod and broke his neck. The eleventh drowned in a river.

iproxtaco wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Is Dorn the only one to die to run of the mill circumstances or were there more?

The second Primarch tripped on a rock upon getting out of his pod and broke his neck. The eleventh drowned in a river.

I have this mental image of two whole legions standing there and the Senior Officer saying

"Well, I have some good news and some Bad news. Good news is we won't be changing the Legion's name, and the Bad news, well we won't be taking part in the Heresy. Sorry, it's very disappointing, but if we don't have a team captain we cannot take part. Their are only 20 places available, 18 are taken but you need a Primarch to be tournament Legal. I'm sorry I don't make the rules. Oh almost forgot we are due to be disbanded...."

TheAngrySquig wrote:I:Thank you Mr.Vulkan for coming to your performance review.
V:No problem
I:Is it fair to say your in charge around here?
V:Absolutely, I'm the Primarch.
I:Well take us through a day in the life of "The Primarch"
V:Well the first thing is DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS!
I:LIKE A BOSS
V:FLIP A TANK!
I:LIKE A BOSS

Should I feel ashamed that I want a full version of that... for each primarch? NOW?!

Soladrin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I:Thank you Mr.Vulkan for coming to your performance review.
V:No problem
I:Is it fair to say your in charge around here?
V:Absolutely, I'm the Primarch.
I:Well take us through a day in the life of "The Primarch"
V:Well the first thing is DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS!
I:LIKE A BOSS
V:FLIP A TANK!
I:LIKE A BOSS

Should I feel ashamed that I want a full version of that... for each primarch? NOW?!

No, you should feel LIKE A BOSS

BrainDeleted wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:We need context. We have no idea how the two missing Primarchs died, if they did die, and we need to know about the specifics concerning them as well. For all we know both of these Primarchs were like pre-Chaos Lorgar. Which is to say a massive pussy.

Yeah...Too bad we'll probably never get it. But I still think the mere suggestion buff Russ a few points. He's the crazy space viking the Emp basically uses as follows: Point in a direction, unleash, hope collateral damage isn't too bad...Or that he doesn't get completely side tracked and end up on a fool's errand.

I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not sure I'd immediately say Horus had particularly low willpower. Real loyalty? Maybe, but honestly I don't think the Emperor really earned true loyalty. Sure he created them, but he didn't seem to trust them either.

Yeah, I'd say he's not as capable a smithy as Manus, Fulgrim, or Vulkan. Nor does he have the incredible technical knowledge of Perturabo, whose knowledge rivaled any Tech Priest apparently.

To an extent I agree. Oh sure, Corax tells us that Angron and Horus are the gak in martial combat, but really, show don't tell. Angron and Horus have only hype in that regard, as far as I can tell. He's probably strong, but we have yet to see actual evidence for it.

But you are right, Horus wasn't better than every Primarch in everything, just overall the most capable, in making war at least.

Can't wait for the World Eaters' novel......

And I don't know, it's tough to see how they didn't owe the Emp loyalty. He gave them the most awesome toys in the Galaxy to play with as well as the coolest jobs ever. It's too easy to assume the worst about His mysterious ways. Personally, I think a lot of his secrecy was out of genuine concern for his little boys.

I don't see why they would feel they owed the Emperor the loyalty he expected of them.
Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

BrainDeleted wrote:And I don't know, it's tough to see how they didn't owe the Emp loyalty. He gave them the most awesome toys in the Galaxy to play with as well as the coolest jobs ever. It's too easy to assume the worst about His mysterious ways. Personally, I think a lot of his secrecy was out of genuine concern for his little boys.

Except you're really assuming that running an army and taking over the galaxy (and stacking up enough corpses to make Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler all look like a bunch of slackers) is really what the various Primarchs all wanted. It sure as heck isin't what Lorgar wanted to do when he grew up, and I'm rather iffy that all the other Primarchs were totally into the idea either. None of the Primarchs were originally created to just be mindless killing machines, yet when the Emperor showed up on their planets, it was like that joke t-shirt "Join the army: Travel to exotic distant lands; meet exciting, unusual people and kill them."

Even in the grimdark 40k setting, people get into trouble all the time because they start thinking, and end up going heretic because they decide that their might be a better way. In the far less grimdark 30k setting, with hyperintelligent beings like the Primarchs, I think the Emperor is lucky that he didn't end up with all twenty of them running off in different directions because they did some thinking and decided that xeno and genocide of anything non-Imperium wasn't the best plan ever. Remember how Horus was all interested in the setup that the Interex had going, especially since they seemed to have things all squared away regarding chaos and xenos.

Hey, its the Chaos Gods fault they all grew up without Daddy. They are like the ultimate in Social Services, confiscate your kids, scatter them all over the place and then forget about them and you have to pick up the pieces. The Emperor didn't want sons, he wanted super Generals. He used his own DNA to make them, they are not really sons so much as his DNA with facets removed.

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Durza wrote:I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Yeah, that's why I want it from the Iron Hands' perspective. I agree with some of your criticisms of Fulgrim but I enjoyed the book overall.

Durza wrote:I don't see why they would feel they owed the Emperor the loyalty he expected of them.
Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

You forgot the most important one: Horus.

Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

iproxtaco wrote:

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

You sniped exactly what I was going to say.

Most of the book is told from the perspective of people who are not Fulgrim, like Julius, Solomon Demeter, Saul Tarvitz, the remembrancers, and I think that's it. The story is really only told from Fulgrim's point of view sparingly, like when he's talking to a gak painting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

And you forgot: "Hey, he didn't trust me enough to tell him what he was doing when he left the Great Crusade, poured a massive amount of responsibility onto my shoulders, causing most of my brothers to resent me."

Horus was not justified in betraying the Emperor, but I certainly can see why he allowed the moment of weakness for Chaos to ensnare him.

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

This is true, at least, based on Index Astartes it is.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Mortarion I can't blame the Emperor on. Mortarions' reason for treachery seems simple: He's completely sinister.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

It was the Emperor's fault. Very much. Angron only killed the Custodian after the Emperor teleported him away so his homies would get slaughtered, and his anger was very much justified. Angron was prone to rages, but his fury and ferocity masked an immense intelligence, and an admittedly fairly warped code of ethics. Want to know how the Emperor could of handled that situation? Rather than trying to get Angron to abandon those he considered family, he could of entered battle alongside his son. That would of earned Angron's eternal respect. It's not like it would be difficult for the Emperor to crush the enemy army either.

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

The underlying character trait of the Emperor's that caused the Horus Heresy is his habit of ordering the men directly under him around without giving them an inkling of what his plans were. That's not how you run an Empire.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Yeah true, Fulgrim was one of the Emperor's favorites honestly. Fulgrim fell because he was completely ignorant about the nature of Chaos. That however is the Emperor's fault, the Emperor's idea to protect humanity against Chaos by making everyone ignorant of it was completely idiotic. Compare this to the Interex, who know what Chaos is, and fight it, successfully and without issue.

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

To be fair, and Lorgar even makes this point, he didn't seem to have much of a problem with it for decades, only for the Emperor to chastise Lorgar in the most heavy-handed way. The Emperor should of chastised Lorgar, yes, but his methods were too extreme.

BrainDeleted wrote:

You forgot the most important one: Horus.

Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

" And yet, he couldn't even tell why he left. After all this time he just got up and left one day, leaving the entire Crusade to me. Now he's handing over control to these mortals that had no hand in the empire's creation without even aknowledging it was me and my brothers who forged it with our blood. Dick."

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

Horus was only in command for a few years really, ten at the most. Perturabo was frustrated long before that, considering the pattern of siege warfare and garrisoning had been happening through the entire Crusade.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

Oh yes, it was the Emperor's fault. Angron had just spent his only time of freedom he had ever known fighting with a band of warriors that he grew to respect and care for as brothers and fellow soldiers fighting against tyranny. It's just Spartacus, in every way. They wouldn't give up Spartacus himself, so all died as brothers. The Emperor, instead of actually helping him, decided to almost teach Angron a lesson, that he had no one but himself. Angron was already a lobotomized gladiator slave at this point. All that he cared for was being destroyed before his eyes by some random stranger that then expected Angron just to obey. Dick.

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

It wasn't inherently the Emperor's fault, although he could have explained why the Warp was dangerous, even for Magnus. Wrong move, but his eventual betrayal was due to Horus's meddling and Magnus's massive ego. He was a pawn of Tzeentch from the beginning, so we can't really blame Magnus either, he was loyal to the very end after all.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Fulgrim was vain, loyal, but vain. Like Magnus, he was a pawn of a higher power. The Daemon within the Laer sword persuaded him of many things he would not have believed when clear of thought.

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

The Emperor is wholly and completely to blame for this. Lorgar thought he was god, the Emperor didn't disagree or tell Lorgar he was wrong, for at around 100 years of Crusading. He even sat through huge processions and ceremonies dedicated to His godhood. If he had told him on the spot then, there likely wouldn't have been much of a problem. Like with Angron, the Emperor made the completely wrong move. Burning down your greatest achievement and then making you kneel in front of a brother whilst you're told everything you had accomplished was worth nothing, is humiliating, Lorgar was right to feel as he did.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Just my idle speculation. If you manage to find a source for it, I'll be surprised.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Sorry, I need to read it again. I thought a lot more was from his point of view than was really necessary.

Russ.

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Just my idle speculation. If you manage to find a source for it, I'll be surprised.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Sorry, I need to read it again. I thought a lot more was from his point of view than was really necessary.

The only parts that were from Fulgrim's POV was in the Laer temple, the meetings with Ferrus, meeting with Eldrad, the fight with the Avatar, the meeting with Horus, and the final battle with Ferrus. There were one or two other bits that served the purpose of showing how the Daemon was influencing him. The rest, the majority of the book, was from the POV's of the Captains and the Remembracer. Even the latter features more than Fulgrim does. I agree that there shouldn't ever be a book dedicated solely to the POV of a Primarch, but Fulgrim was perfect in how it was handled.

I need to review some sources. For some reason, I thought Angron attacked the Emp's crew on their first meeting, having found the idea of abandoning his men completely outrageous. Then he attack War Hounds wantonly once he was abducted.

This kind of makes all the difference for me...The specific sequence of events. Obviously, the Emp didn't handle it perfectly. He's only human, after all...Or was he?

iproxtaco wrote:Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

This does not follow. The 'strong' on Barbarus were the necromantic overlords whom Mortarion originally served. But Mortarion chose to be a Champion of the 'weak', normal humans below instead, didn't he? He chose to fight against the oppressors.


As for Lorgar, he should have known better. No excuses. Why didn't the Emperor punish him sooner? It's a pretty big galaxy. The only time he sat through the pomp and ceremony of Lorgar was when he was first reunited with him as far as I know, the sources I've seen say he didn't approve but tolerated it. Yeah, he was pretty heavy handed but Lorgar's deviation from the path the Emperor put before him was also pretty massive.

Mortarion felt that the strong should champion the weak, not that the weak should command the strong. There's a difference. On his planet, the humans saw him as a hero. The ruling humans had no such opinion.

The Emperor destroyed Lorgar's greatest creation. No warning, no 'Stop worshipping me or else.' Just blew up the city and forced the entire legion to kneel before him in the ashes before sending them out to fight for him again. That's more than heavy handed, it's sadistic.

There is not much love for the Khan is there? He did a pretty good job on Terra retaking the Lion's Gate Space Port and cutting the traitors supply of reinforcements.

He hasn't really had much written about him really, it would be nice if he had HH title to himself.

Seriously. The Khan is a champ. The shreds and scraps of fluff we have about him are pretty awesome. Surfing a rhino through the traitors to retake the Lion's Gate? Riding straight into the webway after the DE for his people? Unfortunately Vulkan, Perturabo, and Khan seem to get the least coverage far and away...Of course, that's excluding the two who got a Damnatio Memoriae slapped on them.

I really want Perturabo to get some love.

He is one of the most interesting Primarchs in concept, IMHO.

BrainDeleted wrote:I need to review some sources. For some reason, I thought Angron attacked the Emp's crew on their first meeting, having found the idea of abandoning his men completely outrageous. Then he attack War Hounds wantonly once he was abducted.

This kind of makes all the difference for me...The specific sequence of events. Obviously, the Emp didn't handle it perfectly. He's only human, after all...Or was he?

iproxtaco wrote:Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

This does not follow. The 'strong' on Barbarus were the necromantic overlords whom Mortarion originally served. But Mortarion chose to be a Champion of the 'weak', normal humans below instead, didn't he? He chose to fight against the oppressors.

It follows. He was sinister, always had been since his time under the tutelage one of the Overlords. What did he do after the Heresy? He found a planet and recreated Barbarus, where the strong rule the weak. He helped the people of his homeworld because he was one of the weak at that point. He believed people should rule themselves, but that the weak should not be supported by the strong. Unfaltering endurance was his strength. When he found himself among the farmers of the valleys, he saw a civilization of weak people, and decided to make them strong.

As for Lorgar, he should have known better. No excuses. Why didn't the Emperor punish him sooner? It's a pretty big galaxy. The only time he sat through the pomp and ceremony of Lorgar was when he was first reunited with him as far as I know, the sources I've seen say he didn't approve but tolerated it. Yeah, he was pretty heavy handed but Lorgar's deviation from the path the Emperor put before him was also pretty massive.

Why should he have known better? All his life he was taught the concept of faith, it's not something easily let go of, especially when your faith is not denied. Plagued by visions of a God's arrival on Colchis, he purged the entire planet of those who practiced the old faith in the Chaos Gods (or so he thought). The Emperor arrived, and did not deny he was this God, or that Lorgar was wrong. From then Lorgar thought he was right, that the Emperor was a God.

So ya think Lorgar was never exposed to the concept of the Imperial Truth...?

BrainDeleted wrote:So ya think Lorgar was never exposed to the concept of the Imperial Truth...?

Maybe, but not that much. Everyone around him believed the same thing, or didn't tell him different. The Emperor tried to impose the Imperial Truth, but never denied his divinity to Lorgar, that's the point.

Lemon Russ is just a tank...

ParatrooperSimon wrote:Lemon Russ is just a tank...

I larfed.

Durza wrote: Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

Fulgrim: was more like a breaking of bad news than a chasteisment. It was like 'Turns out most of your kids died due to a gene seed goof, your still totaly cool though'
Mortarion: He only stepped in after Morty had almost died, not really humiliating
Lorgar: The destruction of Monarchia was perfectly warranted. The city WORSHIPPED the Emperor, worship like that is dangerous and needs to be taken care of
Perturabo: was the one he treated more like a general than a son, Perturabo is right to be po'ed
Magnus: the Emperor was afraid that he would get to immersed in it and fall to chaos if he was made aware of the situation. I agree with BrainDeleted, it was an unfortunate turn of events

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Durza wrote: Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

Fulgrim: was more like a breaking of bad news than a chasteisment. It was like 'Turns out most of your kids died due to a gene seed goof, your still totaly cool though'
Mortarion: He only stepped in after Morty had almost died, not really humiliating
Lorgar: The destruction of Monarchia was perfectly warranted. The city WORSHIPPED the Emperor, worship like that is dangerous and needs to be taken care of
Perturabo: was the one he treated more like a general than a son, Perturabo is right to be po'ed
Magnus: the Emperor was afraid that he would get to immersed in it and fall to chaos if he was made aware of the situation. I agree with BrainDeleted, it was an unfortunate turn of events

Fulgrim he indulged, but he also didn't tell him what the problem with his gene seed was, leaving him searching for a way to fix what mightn't even have been broken. If he had thought there was no problem with the legion's gene seed, he would have been far less easily manipulated by the daemon and Fabius Bile.
Mortarion: The Emperor told him he had to beat his adopted father alone, and if he lost he would become his servant. He didn't then waited until he was about to be killed before showing he was better than Mortarion. It was humiliation.
Lorgar: The city worshipped the Emperor, like many others throughout the Imperium. The Emperor could have given Lorgar a warning to stop worshipping him beforehand, but instead he brutally crushed his son's faith in him. Not exactly the best way to ensure loyalty.
Magnus: So instead of warning him about the gods and telling him not to communicate with him on Terra for a while, he told him nothing and tried to arrest him for warning him about treachery.

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

No, it makes him a smarter fighter.

Durza wrote:Fulgrim he indulged, but he also didn't tell him what the problem with his gene seed was, leaving him searching for a way to fix what mightn't even have been broken. If he had thought there was no problem with the legion's gene seed, he would have been far less easily manipulated by the daemon and Fabius Bile.
Mortarion: The Emperor told him he had to beat his adopted father alone, and if he lost he would become his servant. He didn't then waited until he was about to be killed before showing he was better than Mortarion. It was humiliation.
Lorgar: The city worshipped the Emperor, like many others throughout the Imperium. The Emperor could have given Lorgar a warning to stop worshipping him beforehand, but instead he brutally crushed his son's faith in him. Not exactly the best way to ensure loyalty.
Magnus: So instead of warning him about the gods and telling him not to communicate with him on Terra for a while, he told him nothing and tried to arrest him for warning him about treachery.

Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

Mortarion - You forgot the part when Mortarion proclaims, "I don't want or need your help." Mortarion's pride brought that humiliation on, the Empo challanged him to do alone since he said he didn't need help...And they rest is...

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

At what point in that post did I say the Lion was better? Oh that's right, I didn't. They fought for a whole day, and neither could win, they were effectively equal. Therefore, Russ is not greater than anything. He started the fight with a sucker punch, and the Lion ended with a sucker punch, which actually knocked Russ out.

They were brothers, they would never have killed eachother anyway. Russ simply, if you will, showed compassion to his brother by stopping their petty squabble. K, fair do's, ill back down :s I don't like arguing on the internet lol

BrainDeleted wrote:Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

Mortarion - You forgot the part when Mortarion proclaims, "I don't want or need your help." Mortarion's pride brought that humiliation on, the Empo challanged him to do alone since he said he didn't need help...And they rest is...

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

Fulgrim's desire for perfection led to his fall, caused by his insecurities over his legion's near-destruction and it not being able to operate alone for a large part of the Crusade.

Mortarion said he didn't need the Emperor's help. The Emperor then denied him his allies' help as well and told him if he failed to defeat his father, he would be the Emperor's servant. To return unsuccessful would have been to fail, so he continued on even though he knew his equipment was failing and he was being poisoned.

I'm not saying that Lorgar hadn't heard of the Imperial Truth. The Emperor never forced him to follow it until they blew up Lorgar's city though, and he didn't stop them worshipping him as a god the first time he appeared before Lorgar.

Magnus sent a message to his father warning him of Horus. He wanted to save his father first and foremost, and if the Emperor had told him what was going on, perhaps he wouldn't have sent the message. Yes, there is a theme. It's that the Emperor is a douche.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

What problem with the geneseed? There was no problem. The destruction of the supply was an accident, not a flaw. Other than that, yes, it was Fulgrim's pride and vanity coupled with the manipulation of a Daemon caused his downfall.

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him. For 100 years they preached that the Emperor was a God, He knew about it, but did not tell Lorgar to stop. It was the Emperor's fault, completely.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

It wasn't vanity, or pride, it was arrogance. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp, and payed the price for his ego. Still doesn't excuse the Emperor's mistakes, giving the most inquisitive and psychically powerful Legion pretty much fee reign to dabble in things they couldn't understand. The Emperor never explained a thing to Magnus, and then punished him when he went to far.

Could somebody tell me where I can read about the Lion vs Russ? I've heard about it countless times but don't know where to find it

Guilliman, because he's got a really big ego and the imagery of a Roman Emperor like Ceasar is really cool.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Could somebody tell me where I can read about the Lion vs Russ? I've heard about it countless times but don't know where to find it

Differernt accounts of the event exist in the codices of each respective Legion's codex. Each is obviously slightly biased. The Dark Angels one says Russ was a savage that was going to ruin the Lion's perfect plan, the Space Wolves one says the Lion stole the glory out of spite.

Oh ok thanks, thought it was like the Kurze v Lion story. Which BTW was epic

Magnus, then Sangy followed by Alpharius.

Magnus is the perfect tragic character and too me the Thousand Sons armor was the coolest of all the pre-heresy. Having an army of psykers isn't a bad thing either.

What was the TS pre-heresy armor?

Red with white trim. Symbol was a ring with four flares at the compass points. They used Marks II to V of power armour, suitably decorated with scarab motifs and various jewels. Helmets often had headcrests coloured gold and with alternating bands of purple or other colours. A lot of stereotypical Egyptian stuff.

in the old index astartes IIRC when the emperor meets magnus for the first time he shows him the warp as it reallly is and magnus agree that is dangerous just to calm his father after he leaves he continue as if nothing had happened

thast my memories

Thats pretty awesome. Anyone have any other favorite pre-heresy color schemes, I personally like the World Eaters, the Emporers Chillun, and the Word Bearers

World Eaters and Thousand Sons over here. That nice matte white looks all the more awesome splashed with blood

I like the EC until it gets hit, then it gets ruined

iproxtaco wrote:They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him.

Actually, in False Gods, according to Euphrati Keeler, the Lecititio Divinitatus or whatever it is called, written by Lorgar, preaches that only a true god denies their divinity, and uses the Emperor's denial as evidence he is a god.

Granted, it seems obvious that the Emperor never really made it clear to Lorgar that he really wasn't a god nearly as well as he should of.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Oh ok thanks, thought it was like the Kurze v Lion story. Which BTW was epic

where can you find that?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
where can you find that?

The story is 'Savage Weapons' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden in the Age of Darkness anthology.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him.

Actually, in False Gods, according to Euphrati Keeler, the Lecititio Divinitatus or whatever it is called, written by Lorgar, preaches that only a true god denies their divinity, and uses the Emperor's denial as evidence he is a god.

Granted, it seems obvious that the Emperor never really made it clear to Lorgar that he really wasn't a god nearly as well as he should of.

Yes, but he never made it clear to Lorgar. The Imperial Truth was just there, it's obvious he was never told to follow it.

The Imperial Truth was a pillar of the Emperor's policy for the Imperium...?

Lorgar was foolish to ignore it.

Yes, the Emperor shares blame for what happened, obviously, but Lorgar was not innocent at all. Personally, I think he bears more of the blame.
How do you convince one you are not a god?

'Hey, dude, seriously stop that, I'm not a god. It's not cool man.'
-Chill Emperor

'WOW! He's so humble! Even more worthy of worship! Truly divinity personified!'
-Lorgar

Imperial Facepalm.

Someone as zealous as Lorgar? I'm pretty sure some extreme measures would have to be taken to convince him otherwise...and they were taken.

Actually, it was more like:
'I'm not a god *wink* my halo and golden aura are just coincidence.'-The Emperor.

'Ok, *wink* I get you'-Lorgar.

Hah sorry if it's unclear, I meant that as a hypothetical conversation if the Emp tried to be all nice to Lorgar.

BrainDeleted wrote:The Imperial Truth was a pillar of the Emperor's policy for the Imperium...?

Lorgar was foolish to ignore it.

Yes, the Emperor shares blame for what happened, obviously, but Lorgar was not innocent at all. Personally, I think he bears more of the blame.
How do you convince one you are not a good?

By taking Lorgar aside and telling him he isn't one. The Emperor is completely to blame for Lorgar's state of mind.

'Hey, dude, seriously stop that, I'm not a god. It's not cool man.'
-Chill Emperor

'WOW! He's so humble! Even more worthy of worship! Truly divinity personified!'
-Lorgar

Imperial Facepalm.

Shame that conversation or anything like it never happened.

Someone as zealous as Lorgar? I'm pretty sure some extreme measures would have to be taken to convince him otherwise...and they were taken.

And look how that turned out? The Emperor is a corpse suffering for a race of beings that don't remember the time when he walked among them. There were so many things he could have handled better I dare not list them. Even if you excuse everything else, this is his one monumental mistake.

I think what is being missed is that Lorgar was already being manipulated by Chaos (his advisors).

Lorgar needed someone/something to worship. It was in his makeup/metal state/psychie whatever you want to call it. When the Emperor said it wasn't him, Lorgar simply started looking elsewhere.


The Primarchs may have all been brothers, but they are the very definition of a dysfunctional family.

I put more of the blame on Lorgar. I think the Emperor's true mistake was in not realizing how much Lorgar craved something to worship.

Never explicitly telling Lorgar that he was not a god does not let Lorgar off the hook considering that the Emperor DID explicitly tell Lorgar not to worship him as a god. That mandate included forbidding Lorgar to preach to humanity that the Emperor was a god, so I do not see where the gray area is for Lorgar.

Regardless, your argument assumes that Lorgar would not still have craved other gods to worship had the Emperor actually flat out told him that he was not one. Personally, I think it would have ended the same way.

I think that the emperor could have handled alot of things better, such as not sending a force of savage executioners to give the most scholarly legion a small request or not leaving the crusade to muck about with ancient science back on earth, but he still did the best he could.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the emperor could have handled alot of things better, such as not sending a force of savage executioners to give the most scholarly legion a small request or not leaving the crusade to muck about with ancient science back on earth, but he still did the best he could.

Only if he had about as much understanding of people as the Lion. He made these beings to represent him, but told them nothing of the real dangers they would face. Unless this was the cost of his possible deal with Chaos, a lot of how he treated his sons made no sense for someone who supposedly guided humanity for much of their history.

Durza wrote:Only if he had about as much understanding of people as the Lion.

This is exactly what I think the Emperor's deal is. He is so far-removed from others that he could not read them at all.

As for how he could of guided humanity with his total lack of real charisma, he compensated for this with massive psychic abilities enabling him to easily influence others, and outright read their minds. Primarchs however are not as susceptible to this.

I think he was to far past humanity at that point, and was becoming a god already. He just couldn't connect with the Primarchs emotionally because he had forgotten emotions.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think he was to far past humanity at that point, and was becoming a god already.

Talk like that gets your city blown up son! You better cut it out!

It's ok, we have a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSUALT TRANSPORT, we can hide

For Allfather, for Russ, for Fenris!

I also always kinda liked Perturabo, he was pretty cool

Kuze - this guy is BATMAN! He should have those greaves that shoot out spikes, like in The Dark Knight, when he shoot the Joker in the face He should also have shruikens and the Batmobile, so he can catch up with Corax and kill him
Sqallum

The idea of Kurze on the Batbike from Dark Knight is so awesome it hurts

The Lion, because I like the Dark Angels.
Guilliman takes second beacause of his tactical style.

Personally I say top five are:
Sanguinius
Lion
Corax
Kurze
Russ.

Listed in descending order of mad flow

Magnus the Red definitely. Powerful both physically and mentally. He and his legion could defeat enemies both on and off the battlefield. Shame about the Heresy though. If he hadn't used sorcery to warn the Emperor, he would be sitting on the Throne by now.

Kurze and Corax are my favorite for similar reasons.

Kurze is a bastard, there's no question about it, but he's a tragic bastard. He brought order and justice single handed to a world rife with justice through fear and singular hatred. He styled the Night Lords after this to quickly and bloodlessly take in new planets. He sacrificed him humanity to become the monster in the dark, something for humanity to hate and fear and unite in that mutual fear. He let himself die to prove that he was right. He is the textbook example of a tragic figure.

Corax is much the same; he is a father who's sons were slaughtered before his eyes by those of his brothers. He conducted horrid experiments and created monsters to ensure his son's survival. That, and the fact that he has spiky, razor edged wings on his jump pack, make him my favorite primarch.

Kurze had a split personality or was possessed by a daemon, or so I heard

Kurze wasn't possessed nor did he have a split personality, he was cursed to be the opposite of Sanguinius. He had prophetic visions of the worst possible outcome of everything and it made him a wee bit snappy.

So instead of Sanguinius' general visions, Kurze had only negative visions? That's sad.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Kurze wasn't possessed nor did he have a split personality, he was cursed to be the opposite of Sanguinius. He had prophetic visions of the worst possible outcome of everything and it made him a wee bit snappy.

He did have a slit personality. One minute he was concerned only with teaching some grand lesson about vindication to the Emperor, the next he was running around eating the hearts of his servants because he could, utterly oblivious to what was happening outside his own personal enjoyment.

iproxtaco wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Kurze wasn't possessed nor did he have a split personality, he was cursed to be the opposite of Sanguinius. He had prophetic visions of the worst possible outcome of everything and it made him a wee bit snappy.

He did have a slit personality. One minute he was concerned only with teaching some grand lesson about vindication to the Emperor, the next he was running around eating the hearts of his servants because he could, utterly oblivious to what was happening outside his own personal enjoyment.

Ok. I know Kurze went on periodic bouts of random slaughter, but was it because he had a split personality, or did he just overreact to his negative visions?

Tadashi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Kurze wasn't possessed nor did he have a split personality, he was cursed to be the opposite of Sanguinius. He had prophetic visions of the worst possible outcome of everything and it made him a wee bit snappy.

He did have a slit personality. One minute he was concerned only with teaching some grand lesson about vindication to the Emperor, the next he was running around eating the hearts of his servants because he could, utterly oblivious to what was happening outside his own personal enjoyment.

Ok. I know Kurze went on periodic bouts of random slaughter, but was it because he had a split personality, or did he just overreact to his negative visions?

Split personality, at least from my interpretation. Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver feature some scenes with Curze, he constantly shifts his attentions, one minute he's talking about the last lesson he wants to teach, the next he can barely remember what he did the previous day. Xarl says as much to Talos, that whatever grand objective was often blotted out in favour of eating the hearts of servitors.

iproxtaco wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Kurze wasn't possessed nor did he have a split personality, he was cursed to be the opposite of Sanguinius. He had prophetic visions of the worst possible outcome of everything and it made him a wee bit snappy.

He did have a slit personality. One minute he was concerned only with teaching some grand lesson about vindication to the Emperor, the next he was running around eating the hearts of his servants because he could, utterly oblivious to what was happening outside his own personal enjoyment.

Ok. I know Kurze went on periodic bouts of random slaughter, but was it because he had a split personality, or did he just overreact to his negative visions?

Split personality, at least from my interpretation. Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver feature some scenes with Curze, he constantly shifts his attentions, one minute he's talking about the last lesson he wants to teach, the next he can barely remember what he did the previous day. Xarl says as much to Talos, that whatever grand objective was often blotted out in favour of eating the hearts of servitors.

Its possible that Kurze's 'evil' personality was an outcome of his visions; humans often creat alternate personalities to protect oneself from traumatic experiences.

That's certainly possible. Even the Primarchs were still human after all.

Kurze was driven insane by his visions because he literally saw things the galaxy burning while huge figures laughed at his inability to do a damn thing about it. In conclusion, he was right fethed up.

So sad...probably why he allowed himself to killed by an assassin...he saw himself as what he hated the most...

Yeah, he saw that he had become the crime he sought to destroy and couldn't take the greif. He's the epitome of a tragic hero

Magnus is also another tragedy...for all his power and knowledge he couldn't see he was being manipulated by Tzeentch until it was too late. Thanks to him, the Imperial Webway was destroyed...saddest part of all, before the heresy, Magnus didn't like Horus that much...

Magnus, Kurze, and Corax are the three tragic hero primarchs. They all have great stuff, and I would love to see Corax get flushed out

I voted Sanguinus, something about a guy who even Horus, the largest ego in the galaxy, admitted would have been a better warmaster leads me to like him.

Second is Russ, I think it's fairly clear the Wolves are smarter than they look, and he personifies this, with the patience to run decades long espionage plots and rarely letting anyone see past the unreasoning berserker facade. My personal opinion of him is that he is also a psyker just as powerful as Magnus, he just never trained his abilities and they manifest by simply overwhelming the powers of other psykers nearby.

The 2nd primarch. Waldo. Sadly his background is shrouded in mystery and he has not be found in 2,000 years.

I said Sanguinius, because he's my chapter's primarch. Apart from that...he's a little bland like the Ultramarines. Pure, brilliant and awesome. My other choice was Horus because I felt he has an awesome character, mainly due to the Horus Heresy novels.

Tadashi wrote:So sad...probably why he allowed himself to killed by an assassin...he saw himself as what he hated the most...

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, he saw that he had become the crime he sought to destroy and couldn't take the greif. He's the epitome of a tragic hero

I thought the whole vindication thing was because he proved that the Emperor used the same tactics as he did.

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

Tadashi wrote:Magnus is also another tragedy...for all his power and knowledge he couldn't see he was being manipulated by Tzeentch until it was too late. Thanks to him, the Imperial Webway was destroyed...saddest part of all, before the heresy, Magnus didn't like Horus that much...

It was his arrogance and self importance that were his downfall. He always thought he knew best when quite clearly, he didn't.

Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

Jaghati Khan is plain bad-ass.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus, Kurze, and Corax are the three tragic hero primarchs. They all have great stuff, and I would love to see Corax get flushed out

If you were so inclined, a lot of other primarchs could be included in the tragic bracket. Fulgrim would have been a good example if he'd been written properly. The Lion is in some ways. Angron is actually an excellent example if you think about it. He was found, sold into slavery and forced to fight for years. Then, when it seemed like he had found an ally, it turned out the Emperor only wanted him and left his friends to die, giving him the view that he was simply a slave under a different name. Small wonder he followed Horus.
Alternate interpretation:

And of course, Horus himself, manipulated and betrayed.

Alpharius dedicated his legion to wiping out humanity for the good of the galaxy. You can't say he's not tragic.

rockerbikie wrote:Jaghati Khan is plain bad-ass.

It takes a truly manly man to surf into battle on the back of a Razorback.

Which may or may not have even been invented yet. He's the manliest bastard alive.

I am Alpharius.

(Incidentally, though, the short story in the omnibus that featured Angron left me wanting more. I agree with all previous statements that Angron, in his depiction in the series so far, comes across as much more interesting than your standard "Killmaimburn" guy)

What I've seen of him has been "DERP, KILL!" in Galaxy in Flames, so I can't say I want much more of that

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

He was arrogant, but it didn't really directly bring his fall. He was arrogant enough to send a psychic message to the Emperor even though it was illegal, but he was also just being helpful.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

TheAngrySquig wrote:He was arrogant, but it didn't really directly bring his fall. He was arrogant enough to send a psychic message to the Emperor even though it was illegal, but he was also just being helpful.

He made a deal with something that he thought he was superior too, without knowing really that much about it, thinking that he had got one over on the entity. That's arrogance, to think that you're the biggest fish in the pond when you have only skimmed the surface. I don't know what else was the cause of his fall. If he would've sucked it up like a good loyal son and taken the edict for what it was then he might still be kicking ass with the Emperors seal of approval. At least until Tzeentch cashed in his chips.

Magnus thought that because he was the most learned of all of his brothers he was the greatest of them, knowledge is power and all that. But it made him prideful and we all know what that comes before.

He's a great character with a great story. I think the Heresy series hasn't portrayed him in such a good light. But he has always being a magik tainted warlock

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Not to mention Dorn...

Durza wrote:
Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Ah I see, would be handy sometimes if their was a font wouldn't it? Or the colour of sarcasm could be violet

I agree with you totally, each of the Primarchs had their issues. But I was talking about Magnus, not the other Primarchs. You've expressed the same sort of opinions I have, especially on Russ. Russ is a hypocrite, by pleading ignorance he's allowed to get away with the use of psykers, he's the worst of the bunch.

The difference between Magnus is he made a deal, the others might have been over their heads in lots of regards, but they didn't make deals because they thought they knew best. Well Actually, Alpharius did thinking about it. But the difference is it wasn't so much for personal gain rather than the survival of mankind. By personal gain I mean saving his legion, what use is a Primarch without a legion?

Hey here's a thought, what if the Emperor had intended for the geneseed of the Thousand Sons to be unstable so that eventually the Thousand Sons just ceased to be or mutated so badly that they had to be purged? What purpose would Magnus have if he had no Legion to lead other than to serve his father as best he could? New thread maybe?

The Codex is made up of rules of engagement taken from all fields of war, not just Guillimans. The Index Astartes article on the Iron Warriors goes on to state that the codex includes tactics that Perturabo created. But I get your point.

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Not to mention Dorn...

As the Heresy series progresses I feel that we're getting less and less of arrogance. He's scared more than any thing else and quite possibly the one that suffers from his emotions more than the others.

Magnus, angron or fulgrim.

Magnus and fulgrim cos of the tragic villian aspect.

Angron cos he seems stupid but is far from it and had a genuine reason to hate the emperor unlike 'boohoo, daddy went work' horus.

Nom

Pilau Rice wrote:

Hey here's a thought, what if the Emperor had intended for the geneseed of the Thousand Sons to be unstable so that eventually the Thousand Sons just ceased to be or mutated so badly that they had to be purged? What purpose would Magnus have if he had no Legion to lead other than to serve his father as best he could? New thread maybe?

Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Taking away the legion with some Russ-in-a-can, Magnus would be devastated and look to the Emporer for guidance. Well played, but I feel like it would almost work better with Lorgar, if he was a better psyker

TheAngrySquig wrote:Taking away the legion with some Russ-in-a-can, Magnus would be devastated and look to the Emporer for guidance. Well played, but I feel like it would almost work better with Lorgar, if he was a better psyker

Lorgar was the the body double for when the Emperor went to the pub

Rofl

I like Alpharius. I read the book legion and it blew me away. It is awesome. I love the whole spy/secrecy they hold. pretty cool.

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

If the Emperor planned it for Magnus though, it would make me a bit suspicious about the Fulgrim gene-seed loss as well. Though the only role I could see him in is supplies. And of course, the reason he never made Alpharius reveal his home planet.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

If the Emperor planned it for Magnus though, it would make me a bit suspicious about the Fulgrim gene-seed loss as well. Though the only role I could see him in is supplies. And of course, the reason he never made Alpharius reveal his home planet.

Did Alpharius choose to not reveal his home planet? Or did the emporer not ask?

I thinkk it's the same as Dorn, noone really knows

Pilau Rice wrote:Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

The notion that the Emperor created a Legion purposefully flawed for it to die so he can better manipulate his son portrays the Emperor as even more of a jerkass than usual. It is possible though.

However, it is unnecessary. Magnus himself believed that the Great Crusade would eventually end, as shown by him urging his sons to acquire talents beyond warfare to fall back on when it ended (Ahriman for instance brews wine). Furthermore, when he accidently destroyed the Webway, he was mortified partially because sitting on the throne and leading humanity to a new Golden Age through his psychic talents would be considered a great honor for him.

So stuff.

The big E may have just done it for the lulz though, he's kind of a dick

Durza wrote:
Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

Void__Dragon wrote:The notion that the Emperor created a Legion purposefully flawed for it to die so he can better manipulate his son portrays the Emperor as even more of a jerkass than usual. It is possible though.

However, it is unnecessary. Magnus himself believed that the Great Crusade would eventually end, as shown by him urging his sons to acquire talents beyond warfare to fall back on when it ended (Ahriman for instance brews wine). Furthermore, when he accidently destroyed the Webway, he was mortified partially because sitting on the throne and leading humanity to a new Golden Age through his psychic talents would be considered a great honor for him.

True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

Pilau Rice wrote:

True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

I can't see the emperor being that calculatedly cruel since his main drive was to unite humanity. He'd of just waited til the crusade was over and magnus had no purpose anyway and ask him to do it then.


nom

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

That's a nice dramatic moment in the book, but it's kind of full of derp when you think about it.

Of course it could all have been a grand illusion cooked up by the Ruinous Powers.

That's true, maybe he just wasn't paying attention and let the little thing slip by?

TheAngrySquig wrote:

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies, given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more.
Inquisitor Covenant

It's all Chaos smoke and mirrors Squiggy.

Were they really there? Was Horus there? Was that the real palace, did they even leave their ship?

Maybe if it was an actual event, the Chaos Gods needed the Word Bearers to cut the power to the Geller Fields so that they could open the portal to the warp to scatter the Primarchs. Makes the Gods even more wimpy if they had to rely on mortals to do their dirty work

I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

Durza wrote:I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

I was saying them being wimpy in jest, hence the laughing face, as they are clearly powerful beings but why couldn't they stop the Emperor without the Word Bearers? Why couldn't Ingethel pull the plug?

So far what visions we have seen that have been shown to the traitors have been truths, but they have been truths for what happens if they rebel against the Emperor and they lose, as if they were the visions of the future where they let the Emperors goals come to fruition. The statues of the Primarchs, less Horus, the Emperor worshipped as a God, all caused by their actions. Like I said smoke and mirrors with lies and half truths.

Same with the whole cabal and the Acuity dealio.

That's how I see it anyway.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

I was saying them being wimpy in jest, hence the laughing face, as they are clearly powerful beings but why couldn't they stop the Emperor without the Word Bearers? Why couldn't Ingethel pull the plug?

So far what visions we have seen that have been shown to the traitors have been truths, but they have been truths for what happens if they rebel against the Emperor and they lose, as if they were the visions of the future where they let the Emperors goals come to fruition. The statues of the Primarchs, less Horus, the Emperor worshipped as a God, all caused by their actions. Like I said smoke and mirrors with lies and half truths.

Same with the whole cabal and the Acuity dealio.

That's how I see it anyway.

Acuity? Who did they feth over?

Pilau Rice wrote:True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

Damn man, I'm all for claiming that the Emperor was a dick, but even by my standards that sounds sinister for him.

But as I said, it is possible.

I'm pretty sure that he's enough of a dick

TheAngrySquig wrote:Acuity? Who did they feth over?

In my opinion, everyone, especially the Cabal.

The Acuity shows the Cabal two different outcomes. One if Chaos wins and one if Chaos loses. But neither of these options seems to be that good a choice. Now, what realm does the Acuity stare into? The Realm of Chaos. What if the Acuity has been shown only these two paths because it's what the Chaos Gods wanted?

The Cabal are so absolutely sure that their actions are the right ones, but what if they aren't? What if they have been mislead? Everything they have acted on could be for the benefit of Chaos rather than to hamper it. Each option they had been shown involved bloodshed on an unprecedented scale.

Maybe if the Alpha's had killed the Xenos and reported back to the Emperor what had happened things might have gone different?

Just another idea I have

I think if the Alpha Legion had remained 'loyal' the Imperium probably would have survived in a much better state. The Emperor wouldn't necessarily have lived, but they'd be the perfect foil for the Night Lords IMO.

I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

I always thought it was weird the Alpha Legion didn't follow Tzeentch until the Heresy series came out.

Though maybe Chaos having the two sneaky legions is because the Imperium has the Lawful Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, while Chaos gets the... chaotic... AL and NL

Ronin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

They use a more direct form of stealth than the Alpha Legion or Raven Guard. The former will manipulate to get an enemy into the exact position they want, whilst the latter will use stealth to move themselves into a position that best support their goals. The Night Lords are all about fear. Their book series shows how they use stealth to wreak as much havoc as possible. Unfortunate guardsmen or civilians have no idea what is hunting them, but they make their presence known in the form of gruesome presents left scattered around for their quarry to discover.

Ronin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

The Loyalists aren't direct mirrors of the Traitors though. When was the last time a loyalist marine used a blastmaster? If anything, some are inversions and others are twists. AL-UM (Inversion- Unexpected vs Established Tactics). IW-IF (Inversion- Siege breaking vs Defence). NL vs WS (Twist- Jump vs Bike).

Not a direct mirror, but good parralels. UM-BL (tactical genius) WE-SW (Killy) RG-AL (Stealth kills)

#1 Sanguinius - He has a rare quality that most of the other primarchs seem to lack, humility. He also fought Horus knowing he was going to die. Now if he could have kept that fight out of his geneseed the BA would be in a much better place. His loyalty, more than any other primarch's is beyond questions. He presents a more reasonable vision of the close combat expert than Agron.

#2 Magnus - Arrogant or not, he really got raw dogged. He was loyal to the Emprah even if he wasn't obedient. Using Sorcery instead of an astropath was as horrible call, but Horus's treachery was a big enough deal that I can understand why he would want to get it out as fast as possible. 2ndly Why was the construction of the webway so frail that any random sorcery sent the emperor's way could break it? That is just poor planning. Any random cultist in the galaxy could be given the emperor's phone number by Tzeentch and broken it.

#3 Agron - There is something to be said for acting decisively, and Agron does nothing but. He has all sorts of neat anger and awesome violence. Just given his personallity, it was obvious from the start that for his temperament Khorne worship was an inevitability. Also as the primarch for the Angry Marines, he gets even more credit. You can't tell me that the Angry Marines are not Loyalist world eaters.

Ok everyone, lets see some top 5's, mine are

1 Sanguinius
2 Russ
3 Corax
4 Magnus
5 Vulkan

1. Magnus the Red.
2. Angron
3. Perturabo
4. Ferrus Manus
5. Sanguinius

Roughly, anyway. The only definite constant is that Magnus the Red is my favorite, the ones on that list could easily alternate, and depending on my mood others, like Konrad Curze, Dorn, or Lorgar could of easily made it there.

Lessee...

1: Alpharius.
2: Magnus.
3: Corax.
4: Fulgrim-daemon. He's smarter than the original at least. Not likely to believe talking swords.
5: Omegon. Or is this one Alpharius?

Durza wrote:He's smarter than the original at least.

Because that is saying a lot.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:He's smarter than the original at least.

Because that is saying a lot.

Well he did fix an entire planet's economy...

I think the insecurity is what appeals to me about Fulgrim though. If only they'd handled it better I could like him as a character rather than a concept...

Durza wrote:Well he did fix an entire planet's economy...

I think the insecurity is what appeals to me about Fulgrim though. If only they'd handled it better I could like him as a character rather than a concept...

I'm not entirely sure that Fulgrim was meant to be likeable. He honestly came off as a massive douchebag from the get-go, IMO.

It's not like McNeil can't write a likeable, tragic traitor Primarch. He succeeded incredibly with Magnus, IMO.

They all have something wrong with them, except for Sanguinius and some of the less developed ones. And don't mention the wings, they're a blessing not a curse

TheAngrySquig wrote:They all have something wrong with them, except for Sanguinius and some of the less developed ones. And don't mention the wings, they're a blessing not a curse

While they all tend to have personality flaws, that doesn't mean that each one is unlikeable.

True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

Void__Dragon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

It has to. He wouldn't have been so damn creepy in After Desh'ea if he wasn't smart. Kharn couldn't have convinced him to stop killing things.

Durza wrote:It has to. He wouldn't have been so damn creepy in After Desh'ea if he wasn't smart. Kharn couldn't have convinced him to stop killing things.

Agreed.

Even though the writing felt stilted at times (Particularly some of Angron's dialogue), I can't help but love After De'Shea for cementing what I've always thought about Angron.

Hopefully the World Eaters novel will be good and showcase this even more. Being written by ADB, I have high hopes for it.

Angron. He never hid what he, or his legion, were around for. The pure destruction and utter subjugation of their enemies. Not the Emperor's enemies, or the enemies of Mankind, but those very stupid few who stood against the World Eaters.

He and his were about violence, martial prowess, and war. The only thing that Space Marines need to be about.

Void__Dragon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

I agree, but I also think the mask is stuck

My favourite is the super-loud, ultra-snuggly Leman Russ

The man's voice is described as a "wet-leoprard pur".

I gak you not.

Do leopards purr when they're wet?

Mortarian has a sycthe, he auto wins.

Void__Dragon wrote:The man's voice is described as a "wet-leoprard pur".

I gak you not.

Lemans is? That..That...That....Thats AMAZING

We still doing the top five? Whatever, here goes mine.

1. Rogal Dorn
2. Alpharius
3. Leman Russ
4. Alpharius
5. Corax (who is Alpharius)

Dorn has a ballin moustache, just had to put that out there