time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
SA removes a model from play.

SA does not remove a model from play.

Please read or re-read the rule on page 40.

"The falling back unit is destroyed."

No models are removed, no casualties are caused, no saves are taken, no special rules are invoked, "Unless otherwise specified..."

The unit is destroyed. Nowhere does the term sweeping advance appear in either the Reanimation Protocol or Ever-Living Necron Special Rules.

Please already.

Unless you read this as meaning you smash your model, "destroyed" means "removed from play". I get the whole "removed as a casualty" vs "removed from play" debate, but if you're going to say a "destroyed unit" is not "removed from play" then that only leaves a literal interpretation and you'll be needing some glue.

When, oh when, will Matt Ward learn. I don't care if he wrote the codex or not, as far as I'm concerned he is everything wrong with WH40K.

Actually no, he's not. Phil "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly is.

RP has exactly the same trigger as WBB

WBB has NEVER EVER allowed you to return from SA. Ever. Neither does RP.

The main reason? EL deosnt say it works against Sweeping Advance. ANd guess what Nemesor Dave (going to guess slight bias here)? That means it does work

You have no rules anywhere that allow you to return from Sweeping Advance, because RP / EL do not *****SPECIFY***** that they work against SA

So, before you post again: find a rule saying RP / EL work against SA, because otherwise they do not.

Given this is a literal impossibility, just dont try posting a counter argument - there isnt one

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you read this as meaning you smash your model, "destroyed" means "removed from play". I get the whole "removed as a casualty" vs "removed from play" debate, but if you're going to say a "destroyed unit" is not "removed from play" then that only leaves a literal interpretation and you'll be needing some glue.

RFP != RFPaaC != Destroyed != vanished into the Warp, etc.

Based on page 91, the Annihilation section that awards 1 KP for every destroyed unit, we know that destroyed means that the unit is no longer part of the game. This has nothing to do with physically destroying the models. Please try another strawman.

I agree that SA destroys the swept unit.
I agree that the RP/EL rules do not contain sufficient language to come back from being destroyed.

I would like the issue of ICs joined to a unit addressed. Is a dead IC still part of the unit they had joined? Please re-read EL on p29 before you answer.

It has already been addressed. They are a normal member of the unit, as per page 48 / 49, and nothing says they are NOT a member of the unit

For example if you start claiming an IC isnt part of a unit if he dies, the corrolary - that he is no longer part of a unit that died - is also claimed as true. Which is false.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has already been addressed. They are a normal member of the unit, as per page 48 / 49, and nothing says they are NOT a member of the unit

As I asked, please re-read the Everliving Rule on page 29 of the new necron codex.

edit for clarity and those without the codex:
It talks about the procedure for placing a returning model with EL, giving several, but sadly not all contingent possibilities. One of which is "if the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendl units that it is able to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)."

to me, this implies that a dead IC might not still be part of the unit they had joined, especially if the unit they had join is no longer on the table. That was the precedent with Lord Commissars and returning Conscripts squads, yes?

foolishmortal wrote:As I asked, please re-read the Everliving Rule on page 29 of the new necron codex.

edit for clarity and those without the codex:
It talks about the procedure for placing a returning model with EL, giving several, but sadly not all contingent possibilities. One of which is "if the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendl units that it is able to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)."

to me, this implies that a dead IC might not still be part of the unit they had joined, especially if the unit they had join is no longer on the table. That was the precedent with Lord Commissars and returning Conscripts squads, yes?

Re-read the first half of that same paragraph.

It must be placed in coherency with the unit it was a part of when removed as a casualty.

Yes, and if that unit is no longer on the table?

edit : more importantly, does that 1st part mean "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined, because it is still a part of it" or "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined and re-joins it"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually no, he's not. Phil "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly is.

RP has exactly the same trigger as WBB

WBB has NEVER EVER allowed you to return from SA. Ever. Neither does RP.

WBB didn't use tokens and does not have anything to do with EL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The main reason? EL deosnt say it works against Sweeping Advance. ANd guess what Nemesor Dave (going to guess slight bias here)? That means it does work

You have no rules anywhere that allow you to return from Sweeping Advance, because RP / EL do not *****SPECIFY***** that they work against SA

This is not an issue. SA destroys the unit. EL does not "save" the unit or prevent its destruction at all. Read carefully, that is not what I am saying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, before you post again: find a rule saying RP / EL work against SA, because otherwise they do not.

Given this is a literal impossibility, just dont try posting a counter argument - there isnt one

Show me the rule that says SA removes EL counters.
Show me the rule that says SA prevents a EL counter from being placed.
You cannot find it because it doesn't exist.

SA destroys the model. An EL counter is placed. The effect of SA is resolved and done! At the end of the phase the EL counter that remains brings the model back.

The FAQ supports this but uses the phrase "wiped out". If every model of a unit is destroyed by SA then the unit has been "wiped out". Place an EL counter. SA is done now, it did it's job. At the end of the phase roll for EL.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:Yes, and if that unit is no longer on the table?

edit : more importantly, does that 1st part mean "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined, because it is still a part of it" or "placed back in coherency with the unit it had joined and re-joins it"?

This has been cleared up by the FAQ and is a separate issue from the sweeping advance issue. The wording implies (to me and others) that if the unit is destroyed, then the IC must be placed in coherency, which it can't be so the IC should be destroyed too. Now the FAQ clarifies that you still place an EL counter (and get a roll to come back) if the unit is no longer on the board.

Nemesor Dave wrote:This has been cleared up by the FAQ and is a separate issue from the sweeping advance issue. The wording implies (to me and others) that if the unit is destroyed, then the IC must be placed in coherency, which it can't be so the IC should be destroyed too. Now the FAQ clarifies that you still place an EL counter (and get a roll to come back) if the unit is no longer on the board.

I agree that it is a separate issue. I think we disagree about the distinction between a unit being wiped out and a unit being destroyed. I have cited context and precedents for 5th ed BRB destroyed only being reversible by abilities that specifically state they reverse or counteract destruction. Some disagree with me on this, but I have not yet seen a persuasive argument or new information on the topic. That portion of the discussion seems to have reached an impasse. You can tell it's an impasse because people are not bringing up new information or arguments, but instead are insulting each other or using punctuation in new and creative ways.

I believe my question raises a new and appropriate point on the topic. I would be interested in hearing new and appropriate thoughts.

If the ever living counter is down before the sweeping advance is made, you get the roll.

To suggest otherwise is some creative rules reading, especially since:

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I can't say whether or not they get the roll if they go down to a SA. I'll need to think about that a bit more.

And if you were to pass the roll, then the unit has not been removed immediately with no special rule or save stopping it (unless specified).

But the EL roll happens after the fact. Add to that counters are not part of a unit and it is perfectly acceptable to have unit/model come back due to EL.

Yeah, the model with EL would come back within 3" of the marker just like it says to do in the EL rules.

I genuinely don't understand the confusion.

Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

Seriously. Read the entire thread. Every time someone new comes in we spend 2-3 pages covers literally the exact same points.

Lukus83 wrote:But the EL roll happens after the fact. Add to that counters are not part of a unit and it is perfectly acceptable to have unit/model come back due to EL.

The counter, I believe, has to be apart of the unit. Otherwise, some wargear (the Resurrection Orb in particular) wouldn't work for the unit after the model carrying it has been replaced by a counter. The FAQ tells us that it does, so it must still be a part of the unit.

If it is still a part of the unit, and the unit is destroyed, it too must be destroyed. Otherwise, a special rule, which Ever-Living is, would save or rescue the unit. Which, according to Sweeping Advance, can't happen.

Same situation happens to the unit if when falling back it makes contact with the table edge. Would you say Ever-Living stops that as well?

As far as I understand it, the impasse is due to a disagreement about Q1) the relative permanence of unit destruction, and Q2) whether or not removing a model from play, then returning the model to play at a later time constitutes "saving" or "rescuing" it.

I am leaning towards A1) pretty darn permanent, unless specifically overridden by a rule that specifically overrides it, and A2) Yes

There hasn't been much progress or constructive input on these issues recently, hence my desire to address the IC / EL model joined to a another unit issue. I'm going to start a more specific thread, but I'll keep checking back.

As to destroyed being the same thing as wiped out

Falling back and reaching your table edge means the unit is destroyed. EL won't rescue you here

Falling back and being trapped means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

A 1-2 on the mishap table means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

Seriously, EL is not a never-die power. Get over it.

Happyjew wrote:Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

No you haven't. You've followed the rules for EL as they are written, is all.

Monster Rain wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Because, if the model with EL comes back then you have saved the unit, which you cannot do unless specifically allowed by a special rule.

No you haven't. You've followed the rules for EL as they are written, is all.

So EL can bring you back off the board edge, back from being trapped, back from a mishap...

Methinks you might be reading more into EL than it actually does.

It would seem that way, since you're inventing positions that I've taken to argue against.

We are talking about an EL token being on the table already and whether or not you get the the roll after the rest of the unit has gone away. The FAQ says that you do.

Monster Rain wrote:It would seem that way, since you're inventing positions that I've taken to argue against.

We are talking about an EL token being on the table already and whether or not you get the the roll after the rest of the unit has gone away. The FAQ says that you do.

And literally every situation I mentioned could happen with a el token on the table from the unit.
The FAQ does not say you can come back from destroyed. It says you can come back from being wiped out. There's a difference.
That, or you're asserting you can EL in scenarios I've outlined. You pick.

You don't get to frame the debate, buddy.

I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get to frame the debate, buddy.

I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

I was mistaken - I was thinking something with a veiltek but that wouldnt work.
And you asserted that destroyed is the same thing as wiped out. I'm debating that statement.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

foolishmortal wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

I think he was asking about rolling a 1 or 2 on the DS mishap table. Not mishap in general. Though it could have been worded better to avoid confusion.

rigeld2 wrote:As to destroyed being the same thing as wiped out

Falling back and reaching your table edge means the unit is destroyed. EL won't rescue you here

Falling back and being trapped means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

A 1-2 on the mishap table means the unit is destroyed. EL won't save you from that.

To add to this discussion I just looked up the following to see where the effect is called "destroyed":
Falling back to table edge - unit is destroyed
Falling back and Trapped - unit is destroyed
Deepstrike mishap (roll 1 or 2) - unit is destroyed
And finally...Sweeping advance - unit is destroyed


RP from the necron codex:
"Reanimation Protocol rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters."

EL rolls are not prevented by the unit being destroyed. EL counters are not removed if the unit has been destroyed. That limitation is only on RP.

EL from the necron codex:
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play."

So yes, a EL counter is placed in all of the above cases when a model with EL is in a unit that is destroyed.

Nemesor dave - literally nothing you have said is new. Every single point has been debated over the last 11 pages

To correct you: wbb used the downed necrons as representations. AKA counters. Which is irrelevant as I was talking about the TRIGGER being the same.

Sweeping Advance says you destroy the UNIT, not the model. Do you know what destroy means? Do you?

Find where EL SPECIFIES it works against SA, and you would have an argument. Oh wait, it doesnt, so you don't

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nemesor dave - literally nothing you have said is new. Every single point has been debated over the last 11 pages

To correct you: wbb used the downed necrons as representations. AKA counters. Which is irrelevant as I was talking about the TRIGGER being the same.

WBB has no place in this discussion. These are different rules and are played differently.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sweeping Advance says you destroy the UNIT, not the model. Do you know what destroy means? Do you?

Find where EL SPECIFIES it works against SA, and you would have an argument. Oh wait, it doesnt, so you don't

This has come up before.

Point one: Sweeping Advance does not allow a model or unit to be saved and continue fighting unless the rule making the exception specifically states it stops Sweeping Advance.

Counterpoint: EL does not save the model against SA therefore it does not need to mention SA in the rule. The model is destroyed (and removed) immediately, SA is satisfied, and a EL counter is placed. Later in the game the counter allows the player to roll and bring back the model. SA is in no way prevented or contradicted by EL and the model may still come back.

Do you have anything to add to this?

WRong. Destroyed is not the same as Removed as a Casualty is not the same as Removed from Play.

It has come up before and proven wrong. Read all 11 pages since before you started posting - you are not posting a new argument. Not at all.

Happyjew wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm only asking out of sheer morbid curiosity how an EL token could be on the table from a unit suffering a deep strike mishap.

Maybe this is conclusive proof that I'm sheerly morbid, but this is the sort of question I love. How about...

Deathmarks with 2 crypteks veil, scatter onto impassable terrain, the mishap roll comes up opponent's choice, he puts them on difficult area terrain (which is automatically dangerous for DS) the crypteks roll two one's on their dangerous terrain test. No armor or cover saves, hence you get 2 EL tokens from DS mishap

I think he was asking about rolling a 1 or 2 on the DS mishap table. Not mishap in general. Though it could have been worded better to avoid confusion.

Correct on both points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:For example if you start claiming an IC isnt part of a unit if he dies, the corrolary - that he is no longer part of a unit that died - is also claimed as true. Which is false.

Except for the EL rules, and the FAQ that make that quite true.

No, they don't. You're saying that a destroyed unit is the same as a wiped out unit.

Cite rules to back that statement up.

Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling to back up yours.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

Monster Rain wrote:Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling that says it isn't.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

That's correct. The roll is made.

But you aren't allowed to bring the model back if you pass, because as far as can be determined from the rules, he's still part of the unit; and you aren't allowed to bring a unit back after SA destroys it. So make the roll, then ignore the result and remove the counter no matter what.

That's completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about, since there can't be EL tokens on the table from a unit that is being destroyed by a DS mishap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Cite something other than sophistic, semantic quibbling that says it isn't.

That said, I don't have a strong opinion on if the EL model is removed by a SA. If the token is already down when the unit goes away, though, the FAQ should be sufficient t to say that the EL roll is made.

That's correct. The roll is made.

But you aren't allowed to bring the model back if you pass, because as far as can be determined from the rules, he's still part of the unit; and you aren't allowed to bring a unit back after SA destroys it. So make the roll, then ignore the result and remove the counter no matter what.

In which you completely ignore both the rules for EL, as well as the FAQ.

You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

If there's no unit for it to join, the model comes back within 3" of the token. Like it says in the EL rules. And the FAQ.

Monster Rain wrote:

In which you completely ignore both the rules for EL, as well as the FAQ.

You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

If there's no unit for it to join, the model comes back within 3" of the token. Like it says in the EL rules. And the FAQ.

I'm not ignoring either. The issue isn't that there isn't a unit to join; the issue is that the IC has been destroyed. Not removed from play, as a casualty or otherwise; not wiped out. Destroyed. He was part of the unit. The unit was swept. That means he was swept too, and that means he can't come back, ever, period. He's done.

If the unit was wiped out before Combat Resolution, he could come back. If the unit was shot to death, he could come back. If the unit was transformed entirely into Chaos Spawn by Gift of Chaos (somehow) he could come back. But if the unit is swept, he can't.

If you're saying he can't come back from an EL token after the rest of his unit is destroyed, I'm afraid the is by definition ignoring the FAQ.

Monster Rain wrote:If you're saying he can't come back from an EL token after the rest of his unit is destroyed, I'm afraid the is by definition ignoring the FAQ.

Except that SA is a highly specific rule, which destroys the unit in a highly specific way, and requires any rule that counteracts it to have highly specific wording which EL does not have.

The FAQ does NOT say that EL reverses SA. It simply doesn't, and there's no way to read it as saying that. The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

The FAQ specifically says that the model with EL can come back after his unit is destroyed.

Also, the destroyed/wiped out distinction that has been taken as gospel in this thread isn't as ironclad as it has been made out to be.

Page 40 of the BRB, under consolidation:

At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate.

Either "destroyed" can mean the same thing as "wiped out" or you can't consolidate after you kill off an entire enemy unit in an assault.

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:The one and only thing that's allowed to return a model after it's unit has been swept is a rule which specifically says that it works even against Sweeping Advance. EL does not say so; it doesn't work. That's all.

The FAQ specifically says that the model with EL can come back after his unit is destroyed.

But it does not say he can come back after his unit is destroyed by a Sweeping Advance, and that is what would be required. Sweeping Advance is different from literally every other rule in the game, because it very clearly states that NOTHING that does not explicitly reference it works.

Okay, that's fine, but the EL model wasn't destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. He was beaten to death by Space Marines or what have you.

Happyjew wrote:Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

If the model with EL is the one placed on the table and then you roll for DS mishap and roll a 1 or 2 yes you get to make an EL roll. Otherwise, the model was never on the table so you have no place to put the counter.

An example would be a Cryptek with a VoD. From the DS rules, you place a model then make your DS rolls. If you roll a 1 or 2 on the mishap, the Cryptek is the only model on the table when the unit is "destroyed". Remove it, place an EL counter in its place and at the end of the phase roll for EL.

Monster Rain wrote:Okay, that's fine, but the EL model wasn't destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. He was beaten to death by Space Marines or what have you.

Yes, he was.

MODELS are not destroyed by Sweeping Advance. UNITS are. If he was attached to the unit, he counts for all purposes as a normal member of the unit.

The only time ICs are allowed to leave a unit is in the Movement Phase. We don't have a rule that tells us they stop being a member of the unit when they're dead, so they still are. Yes, that sentence sounded very silly, but I honestly do think this is how the rules work. That being so, when the unit got swept, the IC ALSO got swept (despite already being dead).

The EL would let him come back from his earlier death; but he ALSO got swept, and it won't let him come back from that. He got killed twice, in different ways, and he's only allowed to use EL against one of them.

If you want a fluff justification, think of it this way; the Warriors broke and ran while the Overlord was still in the middle of putting himself back together, and the Space Marines just stomped all over his half-reassembled body in the pursuit.

BeRzErKeR wrote:MODELS are not destroyed by Sweeping Advance. UNITS are. If he was attached to the unit, he counts for all purposes as a normal member of the unit.

Units are made up of models. This model has a special rule, and he's already down from something other than a sweeping advance.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The only time ICs are allowed to leave a unit is in the Movement Phase.

This is not relevant.

BeRzErKeR wrote:We don't have a rule that tells us they stop being a member of the unit when they're dead, so they still are.

You mean aside from the Ever Living rule and the subsequent FAQ.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The EL would let him come back from his earlier death; but he ALSO got swept, and it won't let him come back from that.

He didn't get swept. He was down. His unit got swept. I refer you to the FAQ.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you want a fluff justification,

No thank you.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That being so, when the unit got swept, the IC ALSO got swept (despite already being dead).

You're going to have to do better than just making stuff up. Where does it say in the rules dead members of a unit are swept? Where does it say dead models are still part of the unit?

Nowhere is that said which is why EL specifies that the returning model must re-join the unit if it had been attached to one and (from the FAQ and Codex) does not neccessarily have to rejoin the unit if they were destroyed.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Where does it say dead models are still part of the unit?

Codex: Necron FAQ:
"Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

Necron Codex says:

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purpose of Reanimation Protocols..."

Emphasis mine.

Necron FAQ says:

"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Emphasis also mine.

An attached IC does not have Reanimation Protocols; he has Ever-living. Since these are two separate and distinct rules, and the only thing he is singled out as (counting as) not belonging to the unit for is Reanimation Protocols, he is, in fact, still part of the unit.

As ToBeWilly has pointed out, that very same FAQ quite clearly indicates that dead members of a Necron unit are still members of that unit. There is one and exactly one exception drawn; if an IC can legally return through Ever-living, AND the rest of his unit has been wiped out, he can return to play as a separate unit. But that still depends on his being able to return in the first place!

So: a unit gets swept. That means ALL MEMBERS of the unit got swept; and that includes the dead ones. And Ever-living cannot bring you back after you've been swept.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

As ToBeWilly has pointed out, that very same FAQ quite clearly indicates that dead members of a Necron unit are still members of that unit. There is one and exactly one exception drawn; if an IC can legally return through Ever-living, AND the rest of his unit has been wiped out, he can return to play as a separate unit. But that still depends on his being able to return in the first place!

So: a unit gets swept. That means ALL MEMBERS of the unit got swept; and that includes the dead ones. And Ever-living cannot bring you back after you've been swept.

Good point ToBeWilly. This does help blur the distinction between a character that dies before SA and a character that dies from SA.

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

You seem to be saying that SA destroys a character that is swept, the counter is placed and and then if EL is successful SA destroys the character again. Interesting but I don't think SA is a lasting effect. It's an immediate effect and does not destroy a model more than once. Look at it like this: the attacker destroys the model hacking everything in the general vicinity to pieces with sweeping advance. If the attackers unit then consolidates away, at the end of the phase if nobody is around to prevent it, the model reassembles. (which is when the 3" rule comes into effect).

Nemesor Dave wrote:

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

Models do not get swept, units get destroyed by a sweeping advance. The entire unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Good point ToBeWilly. This does help blur the distinction between a character that dies before SA and a character that dies from SA.

The point still remains when the character with EL does get swept. The model is swept, destroyed and a counteris placed. The model then is not saved, but destroyed (not prevented) and later brought back by the counter.

You seem to be saying that SA destroys a character that is swept, the counter is placed and and then if EL is successful SA destroys the character again. Interesting but I don't think SA is a lasting effect. It's an immediate effect and does not destroy a model more than once. Look at it like this: the attacker destroys the model hacking everything in the general vicinity to pieces with sweeping advance. If the attackers unit then consolidates away, at the end of the phase if nobody is around to prevent it, the model reassembles. (which is when the 3" rule comes into effect).

Fair enough; and in order to argue about this point, you once again have to get down into the nitty-gritty semantics of "rescued" and "destroyed". That's been done already in this thread, and I'm not interested in doing it again; look back around pages 7 and 8, I think, for the grammatical arguments I made earlier on the subject. To paraphrase my point briefly, SA disallows "rescuing" the model, and includes some other very definitive language; in my opinion, the wording of the rule is sufficient to make the point that someone destroyed by SA is never allowed to return. In other words, once swept, always swept; it's a singular event, yes, but the effect of the event (IMO) is "this unit can no longer affect the game, period".

However, as I said, having an argument about that requires both sides to dice grammar very, very finely, which I think I've done too much of on this subject already; so take this opinion as an interpretation, not the word of God.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Wiped Out is mentioned twice (that I could find):
1. Necron FAQ asking about EL with a unit that is wiped out (taken to mean all models killed by shooting, cc, DT, etc or suffered RFPAAC/RFP effects).
2. Page 90 of the rulebook, which deals with completely annihilating your opponent.

Wiped out and destroy must have 2 different meanings, otherwise, if you suffer a DS mishap roll of 1 or 2, you would still get to make an EL roll.

If the model with EL is the one placed on the table and then you roll for DS mishap an d roll a 1 or 2 yes you get to make an EL roll. Otherwise, the model was never on the table so you have no place to put the counter.

An example would be a Cryptek with a VoD. From the DS rules, you place a model then make your DS rolls. If you roll a 1 or 2 on the mishap, the Cryptek is the only model on the table when the unit is "destroyed". Remove it, place an EL counter in its place and at the end of the phase roll for EL.

LOL as much as I want this to be true its not. My saint celestine can't deepstrike down into a unit and thrn randomly get back up. No model is placed when you mishap due to the restrictions of mishapping in the first place.

BeRzErKeR wrote:However, as I said, having an argument about that requires both sides to dice grammar very, very finely, which I think I've done too much of on this subject already; so take this opinion as an interpretation, not the word of God.

Yeah, this is definitely a case for house rules. Once the debate turns entirely on semantics it has ceased to be useful.

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:SA does not remove EL tokens.

10 pages and we are still right where we started from.

Okay, you assert that SA does not remove EL tokens.

Fine.

Quote me the part of the EL rule that says the EL counter is not removed when the unit is caught by a sweeping advance.

Do that, and I'll be quiet.

It doesn't have to. Permissive ruleset. You only do things when told to.

With that in mind:

Reanimation protocols:
"If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it..."
"Reanimation protocols cannot be attempted if the unit has bee ndestroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters."

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols."


What prevents the counter from being placed is that the models were not removed 'as a casualty' it has nothing to do with not removing the counter; it's never placed originally.

That said, if the EL model dies in the assault, and THEN that unit is swept, he still gets to make his roll.

EL model dies - EL token placed
Unit is swept - All counters in the unit (in terms of RP) are removed (both due to the fallback and the unit being wiped out). This, as explicitly stated in the wording of RP, does not include the EL counter.
Enemy unit consolidates
Remaining assaults finish
EL token is still on the board, that model gets to get up within 3inches of its counter.

No where does it say to remove an EL counter when a unit is destroyed (and in fact this is exactly the point of EL).

That said, if the EL model is alive when swept it does NOT get to make a roll because no counter is ever placed (was not destroyed 'as a casualty').

It's pretty simple.


Also, once again, destroyed =/= gone for good in game terms (at least no one has been able to quote as such yet), and since SA is fully resolved before the EL roll is made...

AAAAAAAnd we're back again

We now have people "mistaking" the FAQ entry to mean something entirely different, ignoring the requirement for any special rule to SPECIFY that it works against Sweeping Advance otherwise it doesnt.

ATSKNF shows you what specify means. Hint: it actually has to mention "Sweeping Advance" somewhere in it.

EL does not save you from SA. The clue is in the wording for SA.

Not that the doubters will take the blindest bit of notice - someone new will come along, rehash a debunked argument from 8 pages ago having not read the thread, misconstrue a FAQ again, start dropping "for the purposes of RP" from the rule to come up with a novel idea that an EL model doesnt count as part of the unit - which is a TRULY wonderful mangling of rules, btw - and we'll be back to page 1 again

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

I haven't bothered to read the first 11 pages, but according to the Necron FAQ:
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

and, I'm joking. I really should delete this post before I get in toruble for trolling...

Happyjew wrote:I haven't bothered to read the first 11 pages, but according to the Necron FAQ:
"Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

and, I'm joking. I really should delete this post before I get in toruble for trolling...

lmao I take another 13 hour nap and yet again receive such a welcome wake up. I need to back up and fully read the last 2 pages, but briefly...

1) I was interested in the language in the last paragraph of the RP rules. I'm surprised I missed that. Still, I don't think it is conclusive. Saying A cannot X, and B is not like A, does not imply that B can X.
2) Good find on the juxtaposition of wiped out and destroyed in the fall back language. It does call the distinction into question, but given the large body of contrary precedent, I would call it a mistake, not a revelation. Worth thinking about though.
3) I believe that a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA. That would be a How -I-Would-Play-It interpretation. Still, I do not believe the new faq or the RP/EL rules have yet been shown to provide even that exception.

"3) I believe that a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA. That would be a How -I-Would-Play-It interpretation. Still, I do not believe the new faq or the RP/EL rules have yet been shown to provide even that exception. "

Except that would be breaking the SA rule, which requires your rule to SPECIFY that it works against SA, otherwise it doesnt.

FOr the 99th time. Are people struggling with what "Specify" means?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

Unless the model with EL died in the assault and wasn't destroyed by the SA itself.

@nos - As I very clearly stated, that would be a how-I-would-play-it interpretation.

The SA rule is very strongly worded, and I think most people would agree with your RAW interpretation, not all, but most. That being said, IMO a rule or ruling that allows a model with EL to come back after being destroyed would be sufficient to overcome SA, at least if well phrased and presented to me in a casual game. Honestly, I'd give it to them in a tournament and not even call a TO, but I am an odd duck.

Edit: I am now going to do some fortunetelling....
In my near future I will be seeing "@fool"

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

EL. DOES. NOT. SAVE. YOU. FROM. SA. Understand yet?

Unless the model with EL died in the assault and wasn't destroyed by the SA itself.

So, found that specific wording in the EL rule yet? No?

Guess you're still wrong then.

Yeah, it's in the FAQ.

The EL model wasn't killed in an SA. His unit was.

The unit was destroyed. Destroyed can mean the same thing as wiped out, as per the consolidation rules. Or did you not read the whole thread before responding?

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, it's in the FAQ.

The EL model wasn't killed in an SA. His unit was.

The unit was destroyed. Destroyed can mean the same thing as wiped out, as per the consolidation rules. Or did you not read the whole thread before responding?

What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance? Oh wait, no, it doesnt! Who'd have thought! Oh - and the model WAS destroyed by SA, because the whole unit (including the EL model, who is part of the unit - or didnt you read that bit of the FAQ?) was destroyed.

You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Wrong. See the FAQ I referenced, covering the res orb. The EL model is STILL part of the unit. Of course this is all covered in the basic rules - you still have a presence so are still a member of the unit - but this is the simplest way to show you.

Please dont drop into another thread without having read it, it becomes ... tiresome explaining it all again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

Also consider the possibility that a large unit that gets a good consolidation roll will many times be able to move in such a way that the ever-living model cannot even be placed on the board, due to the 3" restriction on placement. Also what is the current accepted Ever Living token size? I've been using 1" circular tokens, personally.

The EL model is still part of the unit (ref. the Res Orb FAQ).
The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.
Attempts to bring the unit back to the board violates SA.
If you are knocked down before combat resolution, you can't get back up if the unit was swept.

And no - you can't get back up after being run off the table or if the unit was trapped. And you don't get to place an EL counter if you are destroyed due to a deep strike mishap.

rigeld2 wrote:The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.

Either it can be, or you can't consolidate after wiping out a unit according to the consolidation rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:I've been using 1" circular tokens, personally.

Honestly, I've just been doing what I've always done: laying stuff on its side where it went down. I have poker chips in my bag in case this is a problem for an opponent.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, the FAQ says this works against Sweeping Advance?

It doesn't need to, because the EL token was down before the Sweeping Advance happened.

Irrelevant, as SA works against the whole unit. Read the res orb FAQ yet? Or is this a horse to water moment with you again?

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still dont understand the word "specifies", do you?

Sure I do.

If the EL model was destroyed by a SA it might even be relevant to the discussion. Also, I can see you're starting to get cranky again. There's no need for that.

No, you clearly dont. SA specifies you cannot save the unit, unless the special rule specifies it works against SA. SA destroyed the EL model because it destroyed the unit the EL model is a part of (again, see the FAQ which confirms what is already in the rules) EL does not specify that it works against SA, so it doesnt.

The EL model WAS destroyed by SA, you just dont seem to understand what SA actually does.

Not cranky, just shocked at how poor your argument is - a simple rehash of the already debunked arguments with added obtuseness.

Monster Rain wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:There is no "EL model". That model was removed from play. There is only a token. That token exists individually of the unit.

Yes. This is a better way to look at it, I think.

And entirely incorrect by the actual rules of the game.

You can play houserules if you wish, but if you wish to play actual 40k rules then EL doesnt protect you from SA, because it doesnt say it does. It really is as simple as that.

I'll restate what I stated on the first page...

If a unit with a Necron character or independant character is wiped out due to shooting, the character or IC gets Everliving (according to the Necron FAQ).

If a unit with a Necron character or independant character is wiped out due to cc, the character or IC gets Everliving unless the model can't stand up within 3" of the marker and outside of 1" of an enemy model (according to the Necron FAQ and codex).

Those should be clear... no arguments on that? Good.

I've read just about everything in this thread. I've weighed various arguments. Here is how I'm going to play this one with my local group until I hear different from INAT or GW.

If a character or IC dies prior to the sweeping advance, their token is picked up just like any other RP token. If they are still alive at the time of the sweeping advance, they are removed and don't get to place an EL token.

It's not a rules thing for me, but more of a RAI. To me, when RAW isn't clear, the fluff determines RAI. Sweeping advance is about units getting run down, but it's also about units scattering off the battlefield. If that IC or character turns metal-kilt and runs... well, he didn't die so he wouldn't get a token, now did he?

rigeld2 wrote:The EL model is still part of the unit (ref. the Res Orb FAQ).
The Unit was swept and destroyed. Destroyed is not the same thing as wiped out - and the FAQ only addresses wiped out.
Attempts to bring the unit back to the board violates SA.
If you are knocked down before combat resolution, you can't get back up if the unit was swept.

And no - you can't get back up after being run off the table or if the unit was trapped. And you don't get to place an EL counter if you are destroyed due to a deep strike mishap.

It seems to me that you and Nos are incorrectly conflating SA with EL. There really is no rules conflict or interaction between the two. EL does not prevent SA from happening and SA does not remove EL tokens.

1.) EL token is placed.
2.) SA happens. Unit is swept
3.) EL rule is resolved.

You seem to be inferring that SA must remove an EL token when there is nothing in the rules to support that. Yes, the SA rule explicitly states that there is nothing that can prevent or rescue a unit from SA. I'm in full agreement with that. EL does not stop a SA from happening. To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

-Yad.

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Read the res orb FAQ yet? Or is this a horse to water moment with you again?

I think I'll continue debating this with people who aren't so rude. Feel free to read along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the point is that the argument for why Yad is incorrect is insufficient for many. It hinges on ignoring the order in which everything happens, as well as the FAQ regarding EL and the unit being destroyed.

Let me ask this:
Once a unit is swept "the battle is over for them" (yes that is fluff, i understand that). The unit is destroyed and immediately removed from the game. Correct?

If you pass the EL roll, and place the model back into play, is the unit destroyed?
Has the unit been immediately removed from play?
Is the battle over for the unit?

At the time the SA happens, yes. Yes it is.

Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase.

Monster Rain wrote:At the time the SA happens, yes. Yes it is.

Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase.

Nice strawman.

EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says. Find anything that mentions Pain Tokens are part of the unit. Also, find any rule allowing you to shoot at a Pain Token.

That plus the fact that there is no such thing as an EL token. They are counters. Both for RP and EL.

time wizard wrote:That plus the fact that there is no such thing as an EL token. They are counters. Both for RP and EL.

Yes, however EL game mechanic uses the tokens differently than RP.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

And as I said - that's been argued and failed. There is an inherent contradiction - SA destroyed the unit. The EL character is still a part of the unit. How is the EL character coming back again?
If you disagree, please explain why instead of saying "they don't contradict" and not supporting with rules.

The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone. How can a token get run down in a sweeping advance?

And that wasn't a straw man. I'm not sure, based on what you said, that you know what one is.

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone. How can a token get run down in a sweeping advance?

Because the unit was destroyed, and attempts to rescue the unit are forbidden without explicitly saying they override SA.
It's like you didn't read the thread at all.

And that wasn't a straw man. I'm not sure, based on what you said, that you know what one is.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
You tried to liken the EL token to a Pain Token, and said "Unless tokens are part of a unit now, which will be a surprise to my next Dark Eldar opponent when he leaves a pain token in my LOS during the shooting phase."
That implies that you can shoot at tokens (you can't) and that all tokens are the same (they aren't).

You misrepresented the argument (stating that all tokens are the same, so if EL tokens are part of a unit, so are Pain tokens) and then argued against it by implying you were going to shoot at your opponents pain tokens.
EL characters are part of the unit that they were when they became tokenized, as the Res Orb FAQ states.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:To say that rolling for the EL token subsequent to executing a SA somehow goes back and invalidates the SA seems to be a bit of a stretch.

It would be great if you could go back and cite rules to disagree with what has been posted. Your post offered nothing new and essentially mirrored what I argued already. Thanks.

I think the rules for EL and SA (and associated FAQ entries) has been posted more then enough times. Why add to that? I was pointing out that there is no inherent contradiction in iterating through both rule mechanics.

And as I said - that's been argued and failed.

Which is exactly the same opinion I hold of your position.

rigeld2 wrote: There is an inherent contradiction

Disagree. You can iterate through the entire sequence of an Assault and not cause a conflict in the rules between EL and SA. EL doesn't care that SA has happened and likewise. I'll expand upon that in my next blurb.

rigeld2 wrote: - SA destroyed the unit. The EL character is still a part of the unit.

Agreed. However, the model generating a 'EL Token' has already been destroyed. The important bit here is that in my scenario it was not destroyed as a result of a successful SA. I would agree with you that if such a model was caught in a SA while it was still 'alive' then you would remove it without generating a token. I'd treat it exactly like I would any effect that removes such a model from play (and not as a casualty).

rigeld2 wrote:How is the EL character coming back again?
If you disagree, please explain why instead of saying "they don't contradict" and not supporting with rules.

It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

Scenario:

During the course of an assault I have a Lord with 10 Warriors. I suffer enough wounds such that only 4 warriors survive. This means I have 1 EL token and 6 RP tokens as well as 4 Warrior models left on the board. I fail my Morale check and break. My opponent's SA check successful and my unit, specifically the 4 Warrior models, are swept. I am no longer allowed to make my rolls for RP as all of the Warriors were removed. My Lord though can still make his EL roll as it was not SA that generated the token. In fact, SA will never generate a EL or RP token.

-Yad

Yad wrote:It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

rigeld2 wrote:So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

Yes.

Then getting mad that you used that word.

So - MR can be ignored as an irrelevancy, as they are ignoring the FAQ that states the EL token is a member of the unit, as this entirely discounts their argument.

MR - you clearly havent read the thread, as you have yet to post anything which indicates you have. You are not worth debating with until you do so, and demonstrate that you have done so by posting something actually new or valid.

Yad - you are conflating Destroyed and Removed as a Casualty. The two terms are not the same.

By keeping the token there you are trying to use a special rule (RP) to save a unit (the EL token(s)) with no specific allowance in the EL rules to do so, which breaks SA.

For the 99th time this thread alone. Again, its like you havent read the thread....

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

and

"Q: Is the roll for an Ever-living counter the same as a
Reanimation Protocol roll; does it benefit from the
resurrection orb? (p29)
A: Yes to both questions"

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

"his, and his unit’s,"
the token MUST be part of the unit still, otherwise "his unit" couldnt occur, making the FAQ pointless

foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

Bolded it for you. Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:It's coming back because the result of it's destruction was not from SA. If the model was removed from play prior to SA activating then it would be allowed a chance to come back. SA doesn't remove tokens.

So you're rescuing the unit from destruction then?

Nope. SA has done what it was supposed to do. Ever-living triggers at the end of the Assault Phase. We've now moved past SA. We've successfully iterated through every step in the Assault Phase and now have a chance to roll for EL. Because SA doesn't remove tokens. When SA occurs it will take out any 'living' models. Those models removed in such a way cannot be saved. SA did not remove the Lord. That happened earlier in the assault when he was removed as a casualty.

At no point do I believe I have a broken a rule. I've followed the mechanics for EL (as far as generating and placing a token), and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

-Yad

nosferatu1001 wrote:"his, and his unit’s,"
the token MUST be part of the unit still, otherwise "his unit" couldnt occur, making the FAQ pointless

I disagree sir. I do not believe that the EL counter is part of the unit. It represents a reminder to take an action related to that unit and as a position marker for carrying out that future action.

"Was that unit swept?"

"Yea. They were destroyed."

"So what rescued it?"

"Nothing."

"Then why is it on the table affecting this battle?"

"Because this special rule allows it to."

"To come back from Sweeping Advance?"

"No."

". . ."

rigeld2 wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
EL tokens are explicitly part of the unit - as the Res Orb FAQ says.

I may have missed something. I see...

"If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."

Where is the explicit part? I know its hard to tell in text, but I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I am honestly confused.

Bolded it for you. Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

He's inferring that that's what it means. While the FAQ certainly does not specifically state that tokens are a part of the unit. I.e., there is no statement in the FAQ answer that says, "all EL/RP tokens are considered to be part of the unit...". What this FAQ is saying is that a Res Orb can still be used on an EL/RP token even if the the bearer of the Res Orb is removed from play.

While I anticipate some less than congenial response to that, let me just say first that you did say 'explicitly'.

-Yad

Yad wrote:Because SA doesn't remove tokens.

I agree.

SA destroys the unit, and says that the unit cannot be rescued.
The EL token is still there.
You can roll for the EL token.
Bringing the model back, however, would rescue the unit. That is forbidden by SA.

Yad wrote:
At no point do I believe I have a broken a rule. I've followed the mechanics for EL (as far as generating and placing a token), and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

I disagree sir. The context of destroyed in general and SA in particular call for a rule to specifically counteract it in order to be allow the unit to not be affected. The dead model with El is still part of the swept unit. The swept unit is destroyed. EL does not specify rescues from destruction.

Yad wrote:and I've followed the mechanics for SA ('killing' and removing models caught). At the end of the Assault Phase, after all that's been done, I now roll for EL.

-Yad

Sweeping advance does not 'kill' and remove models, it destroys units. The entire unit is destroyed and immediately removed.

Yad wrote:He's inferring that that's what it means. While the FAQ certainly does not specifically state that tokens are a part of the unit. I.e., there is no statement in the FAQ answer that says, "all EL/RP tokens are considered to be part of the unit...". What this FAQ is saying is that a Res Orb can still be used on an EL/RP token even if the the bearer of the Res Orb is removed from play.

While I anticipate some less than congenial response to that, let me just say first that you did say 'explicitly'.

explicit - Adj. - "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
There isn't room for confusion or doubt.

You may not find the discussion congenial, but a) that goes both ways and b) it's likely just because our personalities clash.
I'm not intending to come off as a jerk - I'm just trying not to either rage or introduce a bias into what I'm saying.

Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

kirsanth wrote:"Was that unit swept?"

"Yea. They were destroyed."

"So what rescued it?"

"Nothing."

"Then why is it on the table affecting this battle?"

"Because this special rule allows it to."

"To come back from Sweeping Advance?"

"No."

". . ."

And this is how I see it.

Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove all models (not tokens) from the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll.

Did you come back from a Sweeping Advance? No, as Sweeping Advance did not remove the model that generated the Ever-living token.

It still holds true that Sweeping Advance did what it was supposed to do. What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote: Since he's been removed as a casualty, the only thing representing him in the game is an EL token. Since his unit can benefit from the Res Orb, he's still a member of the unit, and is represented by the EL token.

I disagree with that as a necessary implication. The wargear (Res orb) has provided the unit with a modification to one of its rules (RP or EL) The nature of the modification does not require the wargear on the table to work, merely that it was on the table when the RP or EL counters were placed.

It does bring up an interesting side question. If a lord with orb dies at Init 5, does a warrior that dies at Init 1 come back on a 4+ or a 5+?

Yad wrote:
Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Not that anything can come back from the roll.

FTFY. SA doesn't remove models.

What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

There isn't a timing issue - SA doesn't say that it's limited to a phase or turn... it just is.

Yad wrote: What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

Correct. I see nothing that says it is ok to rescue the unit later; and something that says the unit cannot be rescued.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:Because SA doesn't remove tokens.

I agree.

SA destroys the unit, and says that the unit cannot be rescued.
The EL token is still there.
You can roll for the EL token.
Bringing the model back, however, would rescue the unit. That is forbidden by SA.

And that I think is the fundamental difference between our two viewpoints. I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

Correct. I see nothing that says it is ok to rescue the unit later; and something that says the unit cannot be rescued.

First, Ever-living is not a 'rescue'. Second, I'm not convinced that you can extend SA to things that happen after you execute and resolve the SA mechanic. SA prevents any saves, or special rules from being used when the unit is Swept. As I just said earlier, after you resolve SA you now deal with any tokens left behind.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:
Was the character removed as a casualty? Yes, remove the model and place an ever-living token.

Was the unit subsequently affected by a Sweeping Advance? Yes, remove the unit.

Is it now the end of the Assault Phase? Yes, roll for Ever-Living. Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Not that anything can come back from the roll.

FTFY. SA doesn't remove models.

What I think you're not seeing is the timing.

There isn't a timing issue - SA doesn't say that it's limited to a phase or turn... it just is.

Please note that on the second line I said, "Yes, remove the unit."

SA is one of many steps one may or may not be forced to follow during the course of an assault. It's not a nebulous 'thing'. It has very explicit entrance and exit criteria. EL also has very explicit entrance and exit criteria.

-Yad

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

So an attempt to rescue the unit isnt an attempt to rescue the unit?

The UNIT is removed by SA. Gone. Destroyed. Entirely ceases to exist.

You then attempt to un-destroy the unit, against the explicit requirement of the SA rule, and that somehow isnt saving the unit?

Did you miss what "rescue" means? Seriously?

kirsanth wrote:Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Well (barring mechanical malfunction) they don't - someone had to pull the trigger... or do I get to mount my bolters on a base?
(not a serious post, I'm not wanting to bring politics into YMDC)

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Analogy, though crystal clear, is not intensely similar. See my post about how I describe an Assault Phase as a series of discreet actions.

-Yad

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

I agree with you up to a point. I even argued a similar position earlier in this thread. The problem lies in the fact that the dead model with EL is still part of the unit that got swept. This seems to be one of those unusual cases where a dead model is still counted as part of its unit. Ghost Arc counting and 4+ res orb rolls are benefits from this being the case. This is a drawback. I cannot in good consciousness (or conscious, or whatever the correct term is) accept the benefits but shirk the drawbacks.

Yad wrote:See my post about how I describe an Assault Phase as a series of discreet actions.

Which would matter if the rules did the same.

editing to add:
In most places, that is a safe assumption.
In specific instances you need to remember it is an assumption.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So an attempt to rescue the unit isnt an attempt to rescue the unit?

The UNIT is removed by SA. Gone. Destroyed. Entirely ceases to exist.

You then attempt to un-destroy the unit, against the explicit requirement of the SA rule, and that somehow isnt saving the unit?

Did you miss what "rescue" means? Seriously?

So you're saying that the model that generated an EL token, when it was removed as a casualty, is now killed again when the unit is removed by SA? Hmm, double destroyed? SA doesn't remove tokens.

I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place. I take it that you haven't read my previous posts as your assertion about my missing 'rescue' is entirely without merit.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:explicit - Adj. - "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
There isn't room for confusion or doubt.

I disagree sir. I would not call this explicit, merely an assumption on your part that creates as many or more problems as it solves.

rigeld2 wrote:
Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

I agree sir

foolishmortal wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring. Hence it cannot be construed as a save, special rule, or attempt to rescue the unit. A unit caught by a SA cannot do anything to preserve itself from it. However, once the SA has been resolved and the affected unit has been removed, we still have the tokens to deal with (at the end of the Assault Phase). Models with just the RP property cannot roll. Models with the EL get a roll.

I agree with you up to a point. I even argued a similar position earlier in this thread. The problem lies in the fact that the dead model with EL is still part of the unit that got swept. This seems to be one of those unusual cases where a dead model is still counted as part of its unit. Ghost Arc counting and 4+ res orb rolls are benefits from this being the case. This is a drawback. I cannot in good consciousness (or conscious, or whatever the correct term is) accept the benefits but shirk the drawbacks.

Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote: I maintain that an EL roll is in no way a response to a SA occurring.

This is what I see as a fundamental disconnect.

Along the lines of "Guns do not kill people!" perhaps.

Yad wrote:I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place.

Then SA was not done properly. It affects the entire unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Also, I find the debating side of this forum really fun, but I've found that if I accidentally convey some of the fun I'm having into text, it gets misconstrued very easily...
So I tend to edit things down to being blunt.

I understand. It's a bit of an art-form to be able to inject humor into a forum debate. The sheer number of personalities involved can make things snowball pretty quickly.

-Yad

Yad wrote:So you're saying that the model that generated an EL token, when it was removed as a casualty, is now killed again when the unit is removed by SA? Hmm, double destroyed?

I don't believe that is what was said. The model with EL might have been a casualty, but the unit was destroyed by SA. IMO, until shown otherwise, the unit includes all parts of the unit.

Yad wrote:SA doesn't remove tokens.

Actually, it does remove counters. The NO proponents on this thread seems to have given up the argument to remove the EL counters in the event of a SA. I see specific rules removing the RP counters, but I don't see an exemption in the case of SA.

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:I haven't 'un-destroyed' anything as SA never destroyed it in the first place.

Then SA was not done properly. It affects the entire unit.

I think that by now you'll know my response to this.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

I apologize. I was not terribly clear and you were not here earlier in the thread to get the context. The Ghost Arc repair barge ability is relevant because it references a unit's starting size, this along with a res orb still helping it's dead bearer and unit mates was meant to illustrate that a dead model is still part of a unit for some, but not all, situations.

edit: never mind the earlier side question about res orbs and Init steps in assault. new faq clarifies nicely (for once)
"Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I retract part of my earlier statement "Actually, it [SA] does remove counters. The NO proponents on this thread seems to have given up the argument to remove the EL counters in the event of a SA. I see specific rules removing the RP counters, but I don't see an exemption in the case of SA. "

It's the fall back move that removes RP counters, not SA

If it helps, SA rules do not specify that it is SA 'casualties' that makes a unit unable to be rescued. Simply that a unit that has been swept is no longer part of the game (battle).

foolishmortal wrote:

Yad wrote:
Ghost Ark cares only about 'living units' not dead ones. That is to say, that there must be at least 1 'living' model in the unit for the Ghost Ark to work. So I don't think that quite applies in this instance. Because I think that SA removes only the unit and not the tokens, you still need to resolve those at the end of the phase.

I apologize. I was not terribly clear and you were not here earlier in the thread to get the context. The Ghost Arc repair barge ability is relevant because it references a unit's starting size, this along with a res orb still helping it's dead bearer and unit mates was meant to illustrate that a dead model is still part of a unit for some, but not all, situations.

I think I see what you're getting at here. However, I think that what matters there is the unit composition. Specifically the number of models in the unit when the unit was instantiated. That is to say, if we were describe a unit as a set of properties, number being one of them, then the Ghost Ark doesn't care about the state of the models that are in the unit, but rather the number of models that were there when the unit was created. At least that's how I read the Ghost Ark rule.

-Yad

I agree, which is why I cited a second supporting case, the res orb on a dead model working until the end of the phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
where did we leave things with wiped out =/= destroyed? I know the majority of the context was clear. Did we find more exceptions or just the falling back one?

if wiped out = destroyed, this becomes a different discussion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and back to work. Good luck all

foolishmortal wrote:I agree, which is why I cited a second supporting case, the res orb on a dead model working until the end of the phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
where did we leave things with wiped out =/= destroyed? I know the majority of the context was clear. Did we find more exceptions or just the falling back one?

if wiped out = destroyed, this becomes a different discussion

Right, thanks for the reminder I forgot about that. That FAQ entry though was a very narrow question with a very specific answer. It may be a bit of a stretch to infer it applying in a broader sense.

What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

-Yad

Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Yad wrote:What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

Falling back doesn't clear EL tokens.

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:What's interesting to me is that RP counters get removed after Fall Back moves are made. So if I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and don't get swept then I loose the counters. If I fail my Morale Check (Fall Back) and get swept I loose my RP counters/tokens, but not my EL counter/token (no Fall Back move can be made).

Falling back doesn't clear EL tokens.

That was going to be my next question.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

Unit A contains an EL model
You sweeping advance unit A, destroying it
You then try to roll for EL, which would rescue Unit A from destruction.

This is against the rules for SA. Done.

I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

The idea being, there are ways the situation can occur where the token is placed then the unit is swept.

It just does not matter.

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

It doesnt place a counter. But then again no one here is arguing that you do.

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not yet convinced that when swept, a model with EL places an EL counter. "removed as casualty" vs "destroyed"

Model is killed by a chainsword at init 4. EL counter placed.
Necrons lose assault (surprised?) and are swept.

That's the premise of the discussion right now.

Yes, I agree. I agreed and seconded it back on page 10 when Icemyn suggested we re-focus. I was responding too quickly to nos without thinking about the implications of accidentally sidetracking the conversation

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unit A contains an EL model
You sweeping advance unit A, destroying it
You then try to roll for EL, which would rescue Unit A from destruction.

This is against the rules for SA. Done.

I think you have posted this exact thing several times.
"At this stage" I think it literally amounts to nothing more than spamming.

On a serious Note what is being argued is the timing and either you don't
understand that or you believe being angrier wins the argument.

I don't think that this thread is ever going to reach a consensus personally.

On Topic: The "at this stage" line introduces doubt of how long the SA rule applies,
several people believe SA is permanent, but the wording allows for a different read.
Ignoring that doesn't mean it isn't there.

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

Am I missing the order of operation here? That you:

1.) Determine the loser of the Assault.
2.) Make a Morale Check (with the appropriate modifiers)
3.) If you fail, check to see if the opposing unit is allowed to make a Sweeping Advance.
4.) If the opposing unit fails to Sweep, make your fall back move (roll dice and move distance indicated).
5.) End of Assault Phase, roll of RP/EL (whichever is appropriate)


-Yad

They made a fall back move, and were destroyed.

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Swept units are swept while falling back - "The falling back unit is destroyed" on page 40.

Agreed, but the RP rules specifically state that tokens are removed after Fall Back moves are made. If you can't complete the entire mechanic then anything that triggers off of that can't happen.

Wait a second. You are actually given a time reference in this case and you are not using it?

The fall back moves are completed when the unit is destroyed.
After that, remove the tokens.

??

The actual rules are, "If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.".

And in the next paragraph, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a D6..." Fall back moves are certainly not considered 'made' when a unit is destroyed. If I'm swept, then the only thing I've done is fail my Morale check. I have not rolled the dice to see how far I fall back. I have not picked up my models and made the fall back move.

-Yad


Am I missing the order of operation here? That you:

1.) Determine the loser of the Assault.
2.) Make a Morale Check (with the appropriate modifiers)
3.) If you fail, check to see if the opposing unit is allowed to make a Sweeping Advance.
4.) If the opposing unit fails to Sweep, make your fall back move (roll dice and move distance indicated).
5.) End of Assault Phase, roll of RP/EL (whichever is appropriate)


-Yad

You make the morale check and immediately move if you fail. After morale checks, you check to sweep.

So RAW you should move the models, then roll to sweep - but it's far easier to resolve the sweep first.

rigeld2 wrote:You make the morale check and immediately move if you fail. After morale checks, you check to sweep.

So RAW you should move the models, then roll to sweep - but it's far easier to resolve the sweep first.

So my group has been doing this bit wrong then (as a matter of convenience I guess). It strikes me as a waste of time to move the models only to have to pull them when a successful Sweep occurs. In the last tourney I played in it wasn't even played that way. Thanks for the clarification, time for me to give another read to the Fall Back section.

-Yad

No, THAT is spamming. Hideous, hideous spamming

Icemyn - I understand that you are attempting to bring timing into it. I, unlike you, have been here since page 1. However timing is entirely irrelevant here - you are either rescuing the unit or you are not. Clearly, as in there is no ambiguity here, (if you have ANY understanding of English) turning a unit from a destroyed state into a non-destroyed state IS rescuing the unit

When something new turns up, and it hasnt, then rpeeating the correct answer is entirely appropriate. As is pointing people to the first 15 pages, where EVERY. SINGLE. ARGUMENT has been tried and discounted.

look at BRB p 39 Check Morale

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale
check to hold their ground, with a penalty depending
on how severe the defeat was (see page 44). If they
pass, the unit fights on - the combat is effectively
drawn and no further account is made of the unit's
defeat (apart from some good-natured taunting by the
winer ). If they fail, they must abandon the fight and
will fall back."

and p 40

"Both the unit falling back and the winnmg unit roll a
D6 and add their Initiative value to the result ."

the unit that failed its morale test is falling back long before it moves 2d6 inches

foolishmortal wrote:look at BRB p 39 Check Morale

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale
check to hold their ground, with a penalty depending
on how severe the defeat was (see page 44). If they
pass, the unit fights on - the combat is effectively
drawn and no further account is made of the unit's
defeat (apart from some good-natured taunting by the
winer ). If they fail, they must abandon the fight and
will fall back."

and p 40

"Both the unit falling back and the winnmg unit roll a
D6 and add their Initiative value to the result ."

the unit that failed its morale test is falling back long before it moves 2d6 inches

So one should not take a literal meaning to the part in the RP rules that, "At the end of the phase, after any Morale checks have been taken and fall back moves* have been made, roll a D6..." Rather, a fall back encompasses both the Sweeping Advance and the actual roll to determine how far the unit moves.

*Bold for emphasis

-Yad

It still works, and is important in multiple combats.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, THAT is spamming. Hideous, hideous spamming

Icemyn - I understand that you are attempting to bring timing into it. I, unlike you, have been here since page 1. However timing is entirely irrelevant here - you are either rescuing the unit or you are not. Clearly, as in there is no ambiguity here, (if you have ANY understanding of English) turning a unit from a destroyed state into a non-destroyed state IS rescuing the unit

When something new turns up, and it hasnt, then rpeeating the correct answer is entirely appropriate. As is pointing people to the first 15 pages, where EVERY. SINGLE. ARGUMENT has been tried and discounted.

Again the rule reads Rescued at this stage .
That says nothing about rescuing it later stages, but I guess my english isn't as good as yours. Apparently.

So yes Nos I am rescuing the unit, just not during SA which RAW is the only time it applies.
However, that is just one way of reading it, as mentioned 5 or so pages ago.

Additionally, having a post on every page since page 1, doesn't mean I haven't been here or have not read it, it just means I didnt have the same opinion to regurgitate every page along the way.

Icemyn wrote:That says nothing about rescuing it later stages

The idiom works better as an idiom. The game is broken into phases and the stage is a table.

kirsanth wrote:

Icemyn wrote:That says nothing about rescuing it later stages

The idiom works better as an idiom. The game is broken into phases and the stage is a table.

No arguments, I have come to agree that EL will not work, I disagree with Nos's reasons for declaring finality.
I believe they cant come back due to the word destroyed and its lack of BRB definition.

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

So I think at this point we've basically come to the consensus that EL does not work against SA, even if some disagree with others about exactly WHY.

Is that about right?

I think we are at the point, where we've all agreed that if the model is removed at the SA step, it does not get EL. I believe the argument is now if you still get the EL if the model was "killed" earlier in the phase.

Lordhat wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

If the model dies to a SA, you're right.

If he dies before the SA happens, and he isn't destroyed by the SA, you follow the rules for EL in accordance with the FAQ.

Monster Rain wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The FAQ says it, where it makes it clear that you can use EL after the unit was gone.

I guess it's not clear because I don't see anything in the FAQ that specifies that EL can override SA. Until there's a ruling that specifically tells us that RP or EL work after a SA, then they don't.

If the model dies to a SA, you're right.

If he dies before the SA happens, and he isn't destroyed by the SA, you follow the rules for EL in accordance with the FAQ.

I disagree, for all the reasons pointed out earlier in the thread, like a thousand times already. Here's to hoping GW puts out an FAQ fairly soon.

Lordhat wrote:I disagree, for all the reasons pointed out earlier in the thread, like a thousand times already. Here's to hoping GW puts out an FAQ fairly soon.

Yeah, but repeating things doesn't make them correct, regardless of excessive capitalization and increasing rudeness. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, since we'll never play each other most likely, but I still think I have a reasonable argument.

Especially since, in re-reading the EL rules, the models with EL has been removed as a casualty and a token has been placed.. Models that have been removed as casualties aren't still part of a unit, are they?

Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

Monster Rain wrote:Models that have been removed as casualties aren't still part of a unit, are they?

Generally I agree with this statement, and in the case of IC's with EL it gets a little foggy (though I believe the rules still apply equally), but as it stands I tend to think that WG are indeed a precedent for the RC, and the Court members become part of the units they are assigned to in all aspects of the rules. If the EL marker resolves, then you don't get a KP for the unit that was swept, therefor the model RaaC still 'belongs' to the unit, yes?

In general this is all GW's fault for not specifying whether RC members function in the same way as WG. The FAQ clears up what happens in general when the unit an EL model is a part of is completely removed from the board. SA is a specific case with a very strict requirement set forth to negate it. As always Specific > General.

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

You say again, somehow thinking repeating it makes it true.

Lordhat wrote:In general this is all GW's fault for not specifying whether RC members function in the same way as WG. The FAQ clears up what happens in general when the unit an EL model is a part of is completely removed from the board. SA is a specific case with a very strict requirement set forth to negate it. As always Specific > General.

I guess the fundamental impasse here is that I don't consider the EL model having been destroyed by an SA, since it had been removed as a casualty before it happened. You see where I'm coming from?

Monster Rain wrote:

I guess the fundamental impasse here is that I don't consider the EL model having been destroyed by an SA, since it had been removed as a casualty before it happened. You see where I'm coming from?

I do. Your stance does make sense, and I would agree with you if SA ever mentioned models instead of the unit. This is the fundamental reason why I'm iffy about IC's with EL, as their coming back (after having been struck down in assault before SA) wouldn't deny the KP of the unit. In much the same way that a sponson on a tank can't be repaired simply because it was destroyed before the tank was, I don't believe that EL should be able to resurrect a (non-independent) character after it's unit is swept. An RC member joined to warriors or immortals could still claim objectives, deny the KP and other various things that troops can do. SA is supposed to be final and decisive, hence the very tight restrictions on reversing it. IMO EL does not meet these restrictions.

Monster Rain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, and the unit was destroyed.

You say again, somehow thinking repeating it makes it true.

So, yet again, you are ignoring the Res Orb FAQ which states that yes, a downed model is STILL part of their unit. Which is why you are wrong. Again.

We may have reached a point where we can at least agree on what we disagree about. Correct me if I mess this up.

The NO position says that the model with EL may not come back as it was part of a unit that was swept and EL makes no specific provision to counter SA.

The PRO position says that the model with EL may come back since the instructions for SA have been completed, but no provision is made in SA to remove an EL counter and the effects of SA are finished resolving before the rules attached to the EL counter.

I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

copper.talos wrote:I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

we did consider this, but it seemed to be shot down. The dead IC is still part of the unit it had joined. It uses the 4+ res orb roll till the end of the phase even if it did not itself carry the res orb. If returned, it must be returned in coherency with the previously joined unit. etc, etc. Thus the distinction between dead IC with EL and dead Character with EL seemed to be moot for this discussion.

Also, to clarify, IMO at no time does a model become a counter.

copper.talos wrote:I think there should be a 3rd option. That only ICs can roll for EL if they were an EL token at the time of the SA, as they can be a unit on their own.

Irrelevant to the question, as the IC was NOT a unit by itself when it got swept - it was part of the unit that got swept. 100% incontestably so.

I agree that it is not necessarily relevant to the question at hand, but I disagree that it is 100% incontestable. I believe it is part of the unit, but only because I have weighed the arguments and precedents brought forth by each side. I find the "IC is it's own unit" position lacking, not non-existent.

You cannot contest it. Firstly you have permissive ruleset - you were a member of the unit, nothing says you are not a member of the unit any longer, so you ARE. Secondly there is the FAQ which AGAIN states you are a member of the unit.

There is not a single shred of evidence *against*

@foolishmortal
My point of view is that at the time of SA the unit thats get caught is composed only by the models at the time. Counters/tokens/markers etc have specific rules on how they interract with the game. They don't inherit any rules.

The only reason that EL cannot return a cryptek back after the unit he was joined to died in SA, is that although he should be able to roll for EL, that would mean the same unit that was caught in a SA will reform. The EL token of an IC won't reform the unit caught in SA, it will form a different unit.

The FAQ:
Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

What is the "model" that the faq is talking about? A Lord or an Overlord? Did some members survive from the unit or was it part of Royal Court and everyone died? In the end this faq is a specific answer to a specific question, it can't be used to make a ruling that an EL counter is part of the unit.

I can contest it. Not very well, which is why we agree on our final decisions. A six year old cannot effectively or conclusively contest a tug of war contest with an average healthy adult. None the less, there is someone on the other end of the rope.

If you look back in the thread, you will see me raise questions and cite examples in favor the dead IC not being part of the unit it had been joined to. You will also see others, yourself included, present strong, logical reasons for the IC to be still part of the unit for these purposes. You will then see me agree with the presented logic and arguments and concede the point. While I conceded the point, I am not (nor would I want to be) any sort of tyrannical spokesperson. Others are free to decide for themselves, then concede or continue arguing. You can tell they are contesting it, because they are contesting it.

In reponse to above some use of the word save and rescued and whether a model can come back after SA.

I am saying the order is like this:

Model A has EL.
Unit is in close combat.
Unit is swept and wiped out.
SA: unit and all models have been destroyed! SA is done!
FAQ: Wiped out? Place an EL token.
All other combats are fought,
consolidation moves, fall back moves etc.
Now roll for EL and see if Model A comes back.

The language here is "saved". What if I drop a vase and it is smashed on the floor. If I catch it and rescue it before it hits the ground I have saved it. If it falls to the floor and is destroyed, and later I glue it back together, have I have not saved from being smashed.

If SA destroys a unit and all models are dead, then at the end of the phase there's a token so I make the roll and I bring one back. EL did not save it. EL brought it back. Saving is preventing destruction.

No special rule prevent the destruction or saved the model, instead EL brings a model back which is not saving it.

Copper - it doesnt matter if it were a lord or overlord: THEY are still part of the unit, because it is HIS UNIT still

And it isnt *just* being used to rule it - the basic premise of the ruleset also does so. Its just the FAQ is the easiest way to point this fact out.

Your point of view is demonstrably wrong and against the rules

@foolishmortal
I am not trying to convince you that this is the correct way to play it, I am only proposing a 3rd option in your earlier post.

copper.talos wrote:@foolishmortal
I am not trying to convince you that this is the correct way to play it, I am only proposing a 3rd option in your earlier post.

That is fair enough. I did welcome differing oppinions in my NO/PRO summery.

How would you phrase this 3rd option in terms of a NO or PRO position? Do you think it merits equal weight as the other two? I do not, but would be willing to take a third look.

Naming is difficult. Maybe No/Pro/Exception

I think how each case weights depends on who looks at it. We all have our own opinions and gaming experiences. They are certainly not the same for everyone.

And since I can see that atleast someone is willing to have a civilised argumental dialogue, lets take this case:
A unit of immortals with a Lord carrying an orb and an attached overlord get shot and only one immortal stays alive, then it get hit by a lash of submision and the immortal is forced to move 12" away, what happens to the EL/RP counters?

They don't move, but if they stand up they do so in coherency with the one model.

Actually the RP counters "move" along with the unit, while the EL do not. Check the difference in the wording:
RP:"... place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit..."
EL:" ... Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play...."

But the point is that EL counters don't move with the unit. Is there something that can argue against that?

Placing them next to the unit doesn't mean they move with the unit.

Why does it matter - do you want to stand the EL models up out of coherency? Thatd break the EL rules.

copper.talos wrote:Actually the RP counters "move" along with the unit, while the EL do not. Check the difference in the wording:
RP:"... place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit..."
EL:" ... Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play...."

But the point is that EL counters don't move with the unit. Is there something that can argue against that?

I agree that the EL counter is not moved, but the model is still place in coherency with the one immortal per the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the EL rules on p29

Since RP is irrelevant to this I won't go further on that matter. And, no I don't want to place models out of coherency.

Please bear with me and let me take it one step further, Lets say that the last immortal gets shot again and dies. Where will the Overlord be placed if he succeeds his EL roll?

copper.talos wrote:
Let me take it one step further, Lets say that the last immortal gets shot again and dies. Where will the Overlord be placed if he succeeds his EL roll?

Then, per the EL rules, it is placed within 3" of the EL counter, about 12" away from where the last immortal died.

edit: I think you see a contradiction where none exists. There are plenty of contradictions in the 40k rules. We don't need to unnecessarily make extra ones.

Yeah, I'm not seein any unclear rules with that.

Ok, back to the summery. We seem to be at

The NO position says that the model with EL may not come back as it was part of a unit that was swept and EL makes no specific provision to counter SA.

The PRO position says that the model with EL may come back since the instructions for SA have been completed, but no provision is made in SA to remove an EL counter and the effects of SA are finished resolving before the rules attached to the EL counter.

There are possible EXCEPTIONS to the above general cases, but they accurately describe the current difference of opinion.

How is that?

I agree completely. But if you consider it is part of the unit, then his unit did move 12" away. What is the overlord doing back there? There are no rules on how the counter acts in such an occasion, so making it part of the unit, it should follow all the rules as any other part of that unit. It's either part of the unit all the way or not. To further my point, If that last immortal got pinned and then died, would the Overlod get up as pinned 12" away? I don't think so, the overlord would return in a normal condition, independent of the status/condition of the unit he was joined to earlier.

So to summarize, my opinion is that the EL counter is not part of the unit. It just stands there waiting for the EL. So for the SA argument, If the Overlord dies and afterwards his unit is caught in SA, then the EL counter placed in a location on the table is not a sufficient reason for him not to form his own unit later.

edit: it took me a while to write the answer and I didn't see that last post. Anyway, I am happy with the 3 options. It covers all the different arguable angles.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment, foolishmortal.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
Unit is swept and wiped out.
SA: unit and all models have been destroyed! SA is done!
FAQ: Wiped out? Place an EL token.
All other combats are fought,
consolidation moves, fall back moves etc.
Now roll for EL and see if Model A comes back.

Except, SA doesn't "wipe out" the unit. SA destroys the unit, which is subsequently immediately removed. If SA said the unit is wiped out, I would agree, that EL would get the roll.

We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

Monster Rain wrote:We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

No, you have found that "wiped out" can mean the same thing as destroy. You havent found the converse.

Additionally - found the FAQ yet, that says they are members of the same unit?

I like it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:We've established that "destroy" can mean he same thing as "wiped out". You need to let that line of reasoning go.

No, you have found that "wiped out" can mean the same thing as destroy. You havent found the converse.

Additionally - found the FAQ yet, that says they are members of the same unit?

This would mean you agree with the FAQ. A unit that is destroyed gets to place a EL token and roll to come back. I really believe the FAQ was intended to simplify this entire argument and if you take it at the value of how broadly it is stated, it does.

Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Exactly.

The EL model has already been removed as a casualty, and stays that way until everything is resolved and the EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. The manner of the destruction of the rest of the squad is irrelevant.

Potentially random question:

If dead models are not part of a unit, why would they trigger morale checks?
That only happens when its models are lost, and folk are saying they are not part once dead.

It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

kirsanth wrote:Potentially random question:

If dead models are not part of a unit, why would they trigger morale checks?
That only happens when its models are lost, and folk are saying they are not part once dead.

The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

If the unit is destroyed, it gives a KP.
If you are saying that the destruction is enough for SA, it is enough for VP.
The condition is the same.

Nemesor Dave wrote:This would mean you agree with the FAQ. A unit that is destroyed gets to place a EL token and roll to come back. I really believe the FAQ was intended to simplify this entire argument and if you take it at the value of how broadly it is stated, it does.

Oh for...

No, it means you still dont understand what "wiped out" means. Again. Or that I was referring to the res orb faq. Again.

Destroyed is not the same as wiped out, but wiped out can be encompassed by destroyed. You are commiting yet another logical fallacy, A-> B does not mean that B-> A

Again: Sweeping Advance requires you to specify that you work against it, otherwise you do not.

EL does not specify that you can save an EL model from Sweeping Advance, meaning you cannot. Thats it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Brilliant! Now that means exactly jack all when it comes to a unit destroyed by sweeping advance, because (shock! horror! this must come as such a surprise!=) the FAQ deosnt say that a) this applies to "destroyed" and b) it still doesnt specify that it works against sweeping advance, as REQUIRED in the sweeping advance rules

Nemesor Dave wrote:Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

So what youre saying is that the EL rule doesnt specify it works against SA. Yet apparently it SHOULD work against SA, despite the fact it cannot because, as you have said - it doesnt specify it does.

Doublethink is great, isnt it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

And you know this how? Or are you just, like MR, making anything up that could possibly be used to justify your position, actual rules be damned?

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It also solves the KP issue, since it seems everyone agrees the character was completely destroyed.

The KP issue is solved when the model reanimates, or doesn't.

If the unit is destroyed, it gives a KP.
If you are saying that the destruction is enough for SA, it is enough for VP.
The condition is the same.

No, because the EL model still has an opportunity to come back. It has been "removed as a casualty" but is waiting for the chance to reanimate which it can do even after its unit has been destroyed. You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Monster Rain wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is important to the workings of the EL rule that the model is destroyed and combat with its unit is over, consolidation moves are made and all combat is finished then EL brings the model back. Any other wording would allow models to keep fighting which is not what EL is supposed to do.

Exactly.

The EL model has already been removed as a casualty, and stays that way until everything is resolved and the EL roll is made at the end of the assault phase. The manner of the destruction of the rest of the squad is irrelevant.

Except that the EL model is a member of the unit (BRB definition of a unit AND the FAQ, which you consistently ignore as it destroys your argument) and the unit is destroyed (Sweeping Advance) and EL does not *specify* it works to SAVE or RESCUE the EL model (a member of the unit, saving a member of the unit saves the unit) therefore it doesnt.

This works exactly how it has worked since WBB as well. They have the same trigger (RaaC) use a similar book keeping mechanic (laid models / counters) and both lack any permission to work against SA. And guess what? WBB has never worked against SA. Ever. As in, the canonical example of a special rule that did not work was WBB.

Given you cannot find a single difference between WBB and EL *in relation to SA, before you spout irrelevancies again* it should give you SOME clue how the rule works.

Yes, I'm clutching at straws by drawing your attention to a similar rule, but given as everything else has been ignored by you I thought I would give you something else you can ignore

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The morale check is triggered by the act of those models dying, not whether or not they are still part of the unit after the fact.

Not sure it reads that way. If the dead models are not "its" (the unit's) models then they do not trigger anything.

They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

Again though, that is not what it actually states.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

I just realized something that I've been overlooking, and haven't been explicit enough about. From here on out, when I say "model with EL" I'm talking about Independent Characters, not attached Crypteks. They are very clearly part of the squad at all times.

kirsanth wrote:They were part of the unit at the time that they died. That's why they trigger the morale check.

Again though, that is not what it actually states.

So are ICs. Page 48 and 49. Youve been shown this a dozen times now.

An IC only has permission to leave a unit in the movement phase. For your argument to have any benefit whatsoever you MUST find permission to leave a unit in the assault phase.

Oh, and before you say - but the units dead! Irrelevant. Remember page 49. Normal member of the unit. Otherwise presumably you dont roll for losing combat if just the IC is left?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh for...

No, it means you still dont understand what "wiped out" means. Again. Or that I was referring to the res orb faq. Again.

Destroyed is not the same as wiped out, but wiped out can be encompassed by destroyed. You are commiting yet another logical fallacy, A-> B does not mean that B-> A

Are you talking about english? A destroyed unit is not wiped out? Yes it is. A wiped out unit is not destroyed? Yes it is. They mean the same thing!

Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used. The FAQ uses "wiped out" so they won't be mistaken for some other "all removed as a casualty", "removed from play", "destroyed" or other description used for a specific condition. They use wiped out for what it means in English. All of the above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
EL does not specify that you can save an EL model from Sweeping Advance, meaning you cannot. Thats it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unless you think somehow you can roll for EL and not get to come back - which has no precedent anywhere. Models in a wiped out unit get to roll for EL.

Brilliant! Now that means exactly jack all when it comes to a unit destroyed by sweeping advance, because (shock! horror! this must come as such a surprise!=) the FAQ deosnt say that a) this applies to "destroyed" and b) it still doesnt specify that it works against sweeping advance, as REQUIRED in the sweeping advance rules

Nemesor Dave wrote:Why don't they just say "EL can prevent SA" or in the EL rules "SA does not prevent EL"? Because if the EL rule specifically stated it SA doesn't effect it, that would mean the model doesn't "die", doesn't get "destroyed" and remains in combat which is not the intention of EL at all.

So what youre saying is that the EL rule doesnt specify it works against SA. Yet apparently it SHOULD work against SA, despite the fact it cannot because, as you have said - it doesnt specify it does.

Doublethink is great, isnt it.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me or did you not read any of my other posts? EL doesn't have to work against SA. SA destroys the unit, its wiped out and SA is done! EL doesn't prevent or save the model from SA. Its the distinction between saving something and bringing it back. SA works just fine. Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

See above, re: Rescue.

kirsanth wrote: The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.

I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

kirsanth wrote:ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

Not really, but I don't want to go back over this again.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used.

Page 41, last sentence under 'Assault Results', "Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight."

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:ICs that are members of a unit, or this is basically irrelevant.

Not really, but I don't want to go back over this again.

True enough. I was thinking that the SA would not happen if the IC died, but it would if it just lost.
Oops.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

Are you talking about ICs that are joined to a unit at the start of the assault phase or ICs that were not a part of any unit?
Just want to be clear.

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:You don't get the KP until after the EL roll has been failed.

Then it [the unit] was not destroyed immediately.

But it was.

Everything happened as it should. The only difference is that the EL model has the chance to come back.

The only difference is that you are not allowed to rescue that unit. Which is what "undestroying" something is. Rescuing it from destruction. Unless you are again going to say it is destroyed. Which gives VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Then EL brings the model back, no conflict there at all.

See above, re: Rescue.

This is circular logic. You place a counter when the model is killed. If you bring it back, the model was never killed. Oh noooos, that means I could not have placed a counter in the first place. Logic implodes.

If you're saying you should get a KP or VP for a IC that dies but then is brought back with EL... start a new thread.

The point is up that way.

You missed it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

This is circular logic. You place a counter when the model is killed. If you bring it back, the model was never killed. Oh noooos, that means I could not have placed a counter in the first place. Logic implodes.

If you're saying you should get a KP or VP for a IC that dies but then is brought back with EL... start a new thread.

I don't think he's saying that.

What he's saying, if I understand it right, is that you get VP for any unit that's destroyed.

SA destroys the unit.

But if an attached IC uses EL to come back from a sweeping advance. . . the unit isn't destroyed. Which means you don't get VP, right?

But you destroyed the unit. Which gives you VP. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:What he's saying, if I understand it right

Pretty much.

I am mostly trying to point out logical issues, and some illogical ones.

I really, really understand what the folks disagreeing with me say, and I think I get a fair amount of why they say it.

It's just that they are wrong.

time wizard wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote: Show me in the rule book where "wiped out" is even used.

Page 41, last sentence under 'Assault Results', "Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight."

Thanks for this, but one use is hardly proof that "wiped out" has a special meaning in game terms. It still means the same thing as destroyed.

Wiped out is destroyed, but Destroyed is not wiped out.
Think of it this way, all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

time wizard wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I don't think you read the whole post to which you are responding. There was some important information there. I'm talking about IC's, not attached Royal Court members.

Are you talking about ICs that are joined to a unit at the start of the assault phase or ICs that were not a part of any unit?
Just want to be clear.

ICs that are joined to a unit, killed in the assault, and their unit is destroyed by a SA.

MR - meaning they are members of the unit. Page 49. Necron Res Orb FAQ. Meaning you have to destroy them with SA. Meaning that trying to rescue them by rolling EL is indeed rescuing them

Nemesor Dave - you apparently dont get the use of sets or the logical fallacy you are making. You are not making a new argument, your argument was debunked 8+ pages ago

Happyjew wrote:Wiped out is destroyed, but Destroyed is not wiped out.
Think of it this way, all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

Can you tell me where this is clearly described in the rulebook?

Morale Checks - covers destroyed which is the superset, wiped out are members of the set "destroyed"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Morale Checks - covers destroyed which is the superset, wiped out are members of the set "destroyed"

What page of the rulebook is this distinction explained on or is this something you're making up? I don't believe I saw the word "superset" in any of the rules.

It's called reading comprehension.

Do you ask for them to explain "the" as well?

Removed isn't defined in the rules. Man, it's like sometimes the rules don't define every word.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's called reading comprehension.

Do you ask for them to explain "the" as well?

A unit that is considered in the game to have been "wiped out" can be called "destroyed". A unit that is referred to as "destroyed" can be said to have been "wiped out". This is because in modern English these phrases would share the same meaning. There is no difference unless its defined differently in the rule book.

Now, show me in the rule book where your made up distinction exists or stop saying that.

That's incorrect. Wiped out doesnt mean removed from existence. Destroyed does. It means in repairable. Wiped out doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:That's incorrect. Wiped out doesnt mean removed from existence. Destroyed does. It means in repairable. Wiped out doesn't.

You are completely wrong. I hate to be TFG but here you go from dictionary.com:

Verb phrases
18.
wipe out,
a.
to destroy completely; demolish: The entire city was wiped out.

Can we establish that "wiped out" is interchangeable with "destroyed"?

Apparently you can neither read the tenets of this forum nor use the language the book was written in.

EVEN IF the two are synonymous in the rules (they arent, just to remind you of this inconvenient fact) this still does not alter that the FAQ does NOT specify that you can make EL rules having been Sweeping Advanced, which is a REQUIREMENT of the Sweeping Advance rules.

Unless you can find the words "Sweeping Advance' in either the Necron FAQ or the codex, you STILL LACK any form of rules support for your position.

We're also back to page 1. Shock

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apparently you can neither read the tenets of this forum nor use the language the book was written in.

EVEN IF the two are synonymous in the rules (they arent, just to remind you of this inconvenient fact) this still does not alter that the FAQ does NOT specify that you can make EL rules having been Sweeping Advanced, which is a REQUIREMENT of the Sweeping Advance rules.

Unless you can find the words "Sweeping Advance' in either the Necron FAQ or the codex, you STILL LACK any form of rules support for your position.

We're also back to page 1. Shock

Now you're trying to brush it away, but before we move on, can you prove that they are not synonymous in the rules? Can we establish that you are WRONG and that "wiped out" means the same thing as "destroyed" in both the rules and in modern english?

Can we at least agree that the FAQ could be read as "destroyed" or "wiped out"? I have proven my point unless you can produce something specific in the rule book that says otherwise.

No, I am not. I am pointing out where you are going wrong in your argument, and apparently that is "brushing it away"?

Whatever. You are posting in contravention of the tenets of the forum

No, that FAQ cannot be read as "wiped out" / "destroyed", because :

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/destroy

"to damage something so badly that it does not exist or cannot be used
- Most of the old part of the city was destroyed by bombs during the war.
- The accident seemed to have completely/totally destroyed his confidence.
•
to kill an animal because it is ill, in pain or dangerous"

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/wipe-out

"wipe out phrasal verb
US informal
Definition
to lose control, especially in a vehicle, and have an accident
I was going too fast and I wiped out on the bend."

So, this is another dictionary, a British English one at least (although only Cambridge ED, not OED, as that is paywalled) that does NOT have the same synonyms or internal definition.

DAMN! that could be why you dont use dictionary quotes in YMDC!

You are still wrong.

Oh, and just for completeness:

http://www.visualthesaurus.com/landing/?ad=cdo&utm_medium=default&utm_campaign=VT&utm_source=cdo&word=wipe+out

Doesnt list "destroy" as a synonym. When you look at "destroy" "wipe out" does not appear either.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DAMN! that could be why you dont use dictionary quotes in YMDC!

You are still wrong.

Ah my bad. I won't do that again. So then, here we go:

1. FAQ overrides rulebook as FAQ's do.

2. FAQ says models with EL can come back after their unit is "wiped out".

3. "Wiped out" is synonymous with "destroyed".

4. But SA? See #1.

Nemesor Dave wrote:can you prove that they are not synonymous in the rules?

Yes we can prove they are different with a little thing called context.

Page 41, Assault Results: Remember that winning units can only sweeping advance if all the units they were locked with fall back or are wiped out in the fight.

Since this is talking about making a SA, we already know that the unit must fall back. In order to make a SA, the winning unit cannot be locked in combat which means their enemies all must either fall back or have been killed in combat.

Page 40: The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Page 95: DS Mishap, 1-2: Terrible accident!: The entire unit is destroyed.

This tells us that the unit is completely gone with no way to come back.

Wiped out means killed by shooting/cc attacks.
Destroyed means gone. Never gonna come back.

Can we at least agree that the FAQ could be read as "destroyed" or "wiped out"?

If GW meant for a destroyed unit to be able to come back, they would have said destroyed, not wiped out.

I have proven my point unless you can produce something specific in the rule book that says otherwise

We have produced something specific. The fact that SA says that nothing can save them [the unit], unless the special rule specifies that they can be saved from SA.