Hi,

I'm confused about the everliving rule for necrons. If a unit of necrons is shot to death, the everliving rule allows the model to get back up even if his squad is destroyed. Does this also apply to when a unit is swept away in sweeping advance? Or if the unit was in cc, and simply chopped to death, as in was killed by attacked not by combat res, can the EL model get back up?

Thanks

Sweeping advance states that it is only capable of being ignored by rules that specifically mention Sweeping Advance being overruled/ignored.

ZombieJoe wrote:Hi,

I'm confused about the everliving rule for necrons. If a unit of necrons is shot to death, the everliving rule allows the model to get back up even if his squad is destroyed. Does this also apply to when a unit is swept away in sweeping advance? Or if the unit was in cc, and simply chopped to death, as in was killed by attacked not by combat res, can the EL model get back up?

Thanks

Unit shot to death... Everliving allowed.
Unit chopped to death... Everliving allowed. (No combat resolution... no sweeping attack)
Sweeping attack... no Everliving allowed.

What are you talking about?
when a unit is sweeping advanced all the models die, mark down where the ever living tokens go and at the end of the phase roll to see if they come back. Everliving means you always get to roll to see if they come back. you cannot reanimation protocol from a sweeping advance however as that means the whole squad is wiped out.

bagtagger wrote:when a unit is sweeping advanced all the models die, mark down where the ever living tokens go and at the end of the phase roll to see if they come back

The falling back unit is destroyed, and removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save, or special rule can rescue the unit, for them the battle is over.

(I paraphrased, and added some emphasis, full explanation on page 40).

bagtagger wrote:What are you talking about?

The actual rules, how about you?

Happyjew wrote:

bagtagger wrote:when a unit is sweeping advanced all the models die, mark down where the ever living tokens go and at the end of the phase roll to see if they come back

The falling back unit is destroyed, and removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save, or special rule can rescue the unit, for them the battle is over.

(I paraphrased, and added some emphasis, full explanation on page 40).

Guess where it is specified...

... In the the everliving rule where it says you get to roll to come back if you die.

Which never specifies it over-rides sweeping advance.
So it does not.

To be able to benefit from Ever-living, you need to be removed as a casualty. If you are not removed as a casualty, Ever-living as no effect.

Edit: First sentence under Ever-Living on page 29 of Codex: Necrons.

Where in my post did I mention that the Necrons die? I said the unit is destroyed and is [b]removed[/b[. Now show me where RP/EL says if the model is destroyed/removed from play (not[/] removed from play as a casualty) and I'll concede.

sweeping advance kills you, that then procs the placement of an everliving token.

All sweeping advance does is kill you. For normal rp it wipes the unit so they don't place the rp tokens, but for everliving there are no such restrictions and you still place the everliving token as that's what you do when the model dies. At the end of the phase you roll to see if the everliving token gets up


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:Where in my post did I mention that the Necrons die? I said the unit is destroyed and is [b]removed[/b[. Now show me where RP/EL says if the model is destroyed/removed from play (not[/] removed from play as a casualty) and I'll concede.

I don't think anywhere i have ever played has ruled that as different from being removed as a casualty.

Wrong, SA does not kill you, it removes the unit from play, exactly like JotWW removes models from play.

And since EL and RP allow you to come back after being removed from play, EL can allow the character to "survive" a SA that just removed him from play.

That distinction would matter with the old WBB but not for EL

No, EL/RP allows you to come back when removed from play as a casualty.

and how are you not a casualty after you've been swept.

bagtagger wrote:and how are you not a casualty after you've been swept.

This is irrelevant now. The problem is that SA states that it needs to be called out by any rule that preempts it.

EL does not, so it does not.

Editing to add text for those who do not want to check:

Main rules, page 40: "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit"

Codex: Necrons, page 40 under Necron Special Rules the words "Sweeping Advance" are never mentioned, let alone specified.

Like many people pointed out: RP or EL works only when the model is removed as casualty. SA doesn't remove them as casualty, so no tokens. You don't get away from SA unless you have a rule that specifically states that you do.

Marshal_Gus wrote:And since EL and RP allow you to come back after being removed from play, EL can allow the character to "survive" a SA that just removed him from play.

No. Just no.

You cannot EL/RP from a JotWW, you cannot EL/RP from other "remove from play" abilities, you do not pass go, you do not collect $200.

You can EL/RP if you're removed as a casualty. SA does not remove you as a casualty.

kirsanth wrote:

bagtagger wrote:and how are you not a casualty after you've been swept.

This is irrelevant now. The problem is that SA states that it needs to be called out by any rule that preempts it.

EL does not, so it does not.

This is correct.
As an example take Space Marine ATSKNF. That rule (Codex SM page 51) says, "If Space Marines are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally."

@bagtagger - Niether RP nor EL has anything in the rule that specifies they negate, ignore or survice a sweeping advance. Therefore, the main rule takes effect and if the Necron unit is caught in a sweeping advance, the entire unit is destroyed.

Wait, I remember reading recently that GW clarified that "Removed from play" was just another way of saying "Removed as a casualty".

Was that the new FAQ, or the leaked 6th rules?

That's the pancake edition.

The only model (that I know of anyway) who can attempt to come back from RFP type attacks is St Celestine.

Grakmar wrote:Wait, I remember reading recently that GW clarified that "Removed from play" was just another way of saying "Removed as a casualty".

Was that the new FAQ, or the leaked 6th rules?

That's true in the "leaked 6th edition". It's true for St. Celestine. It's not true anywhere else.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Wait, I remember reading recently that GW clarified that "Removed from play" was just another way of saying "Removed as a casualty".

Was that the new FAQ, or the leaked 6th rules?

That's true in the "leaked 6th edition". It's true for St. Celestine. It's not true anywhere else.

Ah, my mistake. Too many new rules lately gets me confused...

Grakmar wrote:Wait, I remember reading recently that GW clarified that "Removed from play" was just another way of saying "Removed as a casualty".

Was that the new FAQ, or the leaked 6th rules?

In the case of sweeping advance, it doesn't matter.

If a unit is caught by a sweeping advance, none of the models are 'removed as casualties', none are 'removed from play'.

SA simply says if a fleeing enemy is caught in a sweeping advance, "The falling back unit is destroyed."

That's it. Just destroyed. and "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage..."

And both Reanimation Protocols and Ever-Living are on page 29 of the Necron Codex, listed under "Necron Special Rules".

So unless otherwise specified, which sweeping advance in not specified or even mentioned in either of these rules, then those special rules "...cannot rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over."

It depends on your interpretation of the new FAQ

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

Specifically, whether you consider destroyed == wiped out or not.

That said, I do not believe you can roll ever living out of sweeping advance. At least not yet, if the leaked 6th ed rules are to be believed, however, destroy will trigger removed as casualty powers, and thus would allow you your EL roll.

Just food for thought.

Nope, no EL from a Sweeping Advance. Sweeping Advance very specifically states that only rules that explicitly say they save the unit from Sweeping Advance work against it. EL doesn't say that, so it doesn't. Very simple, and there's no need to get into 'removed from play' vs. 'removed from play as a casualty' at all.

It DOES NOT MATTER if you are destroyed, removed from play, etc

SA does not let you save the unit via a special rule (so, RP then) UNLESS the rule SPECIFIES it saves you from SA

ATSKNF specifies it saves you from SA
RP does not

RP does not save you from SA

nosferatu1001 wrote:It DOES NOT MATTER if you are destroyed, removed from play, etc

SA does not let you save the unit via a special rule (so, RP then) UNLESS the rule SPECIFIES it saves you from SA

ATSKNF specifies it saves you from SA
RP does not

RP does not save you from SA

I don't really care about the debate, but say SA did trigger RP (because it removed everyone in the unit as a casualty).

Would you get RP then? The unit wasn't saved - everyone was turned into a counter.

AKA - can you sweep St. C?

rigeld2 wrote:

AKA - can you sweep St. C?

Yes, because she has no rule that overrides sweeping advance.

It's really very simple. In order to not be destroyed by a sweeping advance, you would have to have a rule that starts with, "If [the unit] is caught by a sweeping advance, it is not destroyed...".

In the absence of that or similar wording, any unit in any army caught by a sweeping advance is destroyed.

No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.

Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.

That is not being devil's advocate.

SA destroyed the unit.

You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.

Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.

Main rules under sweeping advance 4th sentence, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

You remove the unit. Now SA is satisfied. No special rule can rescue them.

RP and EL are special rules. They cannot rescue the unit.

All the kings models and all the kings counters are removed...immediately.

For them, the battle is over.

kirsanth wrote:That is not being devil's advocate.

SA destroyed the unit.

You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.

Actually, it is. I do think that SA overrides everything. I'm coming up with potential things that someone would use to argue against that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.

End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?

rigeld2 wrote:
SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.

End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?

When a unit is swept, it is destroyed and immediately removed.

Sweeping advance is not an effect, it is an event that takes place when a specific set of conditions are satisfied.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
SA destroys the unit. SA is satisfied. You can even go fight another assault or two.

End of the phase comes - SA is still in effect?

When a unit is swept, it is destroyed and immediately removed.

Sweeping advance is not an effect, it is an event that takes place when a specific set of conditions are satisfied.

Right - congratulations. I've said that. SA removes the unit. Nothing stops this from happening.

When St. C is removed, a counter is placed. Cite the rule that stops this from happening.

kirsanth wrote:That is not being devil's advocate.

SA destroyed the unit.

You cannot use a special rule that never mentions SA to un-destroy said unit.

There's no such thing as "un-destroy" - not even when EL interacts with regular wounding (un-wounding?).

There is such a thing as being destroyed, placing a counter, and rolling for the counter. The question is whether being "destroyed" = "removed as a casualty." GW has never been consistent with verbiage, so that's anyone's guess I believe.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because the unit comes back in some form - an everliving IC, for example, was a unit before and is a unit now.

Devils advocate: The ability doesn't save the unit. The unit is destroyed. SA is satisfied. I now roll to come back.

Main rules under sweeping advance 4th sentence, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

You remove the unit. Now SA is satisfied. No special rule can rescue them.

RP and EL are special rules. They cannot rescue the unit.

All the kings models and all the kings counters are removed...immediately.

For them, the battle is over.

This depends on what a special rule that "rescues" them is exactly. There's no such thing as far as we know.

Is it something that prevents SA only, or something that allows SA to happen and then later, in a completely unrelated event, brings the model back?

My curiousity would like to know how SA's wording compares to that of removing models from play as casualties from wounding.

That rule is over-writing the destruction by SA without mentioning it being allowed to.

That is not allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.

Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.

This feels like it could take a turn toward the philosophical - if something is destroyed and brought back, was it ever really destroyed?

rigeld2 wrote:AKA - can you sweep St. C?

No, since she's Fearless.

Spetulhu wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:AKA - can you sweep St. C?

No, since she's Fearless.

... Good call. I'll drop the argument then because the point is moot. At least until GW change RFP/destroyed to mean the same thing as RFPaaC.

somerandomdude wrote:This feels like it could take a turn toward the philosophical - if something is destroyed and brought back, was it ever really destroyed?

Exalted.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.

Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.

The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.

Well, actually you might Sweep St.C - if she's joined a non-Fearless unit that gets swept. She no longer imparts that Fearless on them. :-(

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.

Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.

The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.

No, the unit still exists in potentia, therefore you HAVE saved the unit

An Overlord is Swept and destroyed. By placing the counter you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - because if you pass the EL roll you will have regained the lost unit.

You cannot do this, because RP / EL do not specify that you can.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Cite the rule that stops this from happening.

Cite the rule that allows it to rescue a unit destroyed by SA, that would answer the issue.

The unit is not rescued - SA does it's thing by destroying the unit.

No, the unit still exists in potentia, therefore you HAVE saved the unit

I think that's reaching a little bit... but I don't disagree philosophically.

kirsanth wrote:Sweeping advance states that it is only capable of being ignored by rules that specifically mention Sweeping Advance being overruled/ignored.

Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.

-Cypher- wrote:Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.

Page 30 of the main rules, first bullet point, last sentence.

-Cypher- wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Sweeping advance states that it is only capable of being ignored by rules that specifically mention Sweeping Advance being overruled/ignored.

Can you cite this please? Page, paragraph, line.

Main Rules, page 40, paragraph 4 (first bullet point), 8th line, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule canrescue the unit at this stage..." {emphasis mine}

Okay?

Page 40 of the AoBR book. Thank you.

Erp.

Mis-typed the page - but not editing it so I can have a simultaneous update with time wizard. ^^

The page numbers are the same in both books though.

-Cypher- wrote:Page 40 of the AoBR book. Thank you.

You're welcome!
And the pages are the same in the hardcover book and the AoBR book for the rules section.

It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!

kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!

Not the first time this has happened kirsanth!

kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!

YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

kirsanth wrote:It seems time wizard and myself are . . . on the same page!

Obligatory "ZING!"

nosferatu1001 wrote:It DOES NOT MATTER if you are destroyed, removed from play, etc

SA does not let you save the unit via a special rule (so, RP then) UNLESS the rule SPECIFIES it saves you from SA

ATSKNF specifies it saves you from SA

RP does not save you from SA

Interesting, I think Fox is suggesting that SA destroys the unit, but that the EL counter is placed and rolled for. Placing the EL counter and rolling for it is not a save or special rule to avoid. The unit is destroyed, but the character might come back. I'll think about it.

Follow up question. A royal court character dies at INIT 3 but the squad is not wiped, the EL counter is placed. The necrons lose combat, fail their morale test, and lose the Initiative test, thus destroyed due to SA. What happens to the EL counter from earlier? I know RP counters are removed if the unit is swept. I know EL counters are rolled for like RP counters. Are they removed like RP counters?

I think, unless their an IC, they die to the sweeping advance. IC aren't technically part of the squad.

Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

I'm not saying they don't die to SA. I'm saying it possible that being destroyed by SA does not necessary preclude also being returned to play by means of Ever Living. I'm not even sure I think that yet, but that's what I'm considering.

I'm still interested in hearing opinions on whether or not an EL counter generated before the SA is removed by the SA. That would be helpful to know.

Oh lord help me... but I’ll throw in...
First off... Where does it say SA Removes from play... my book just says Destroyed.
Now granted it says nothing else can be used at this "stage" but EL is used at the end of the Phase, not at that point in time, it is used at the end of all other assaults, Consolidation moves...

Continuing on… the only difference between St C and EL is when it is rolled and 5+ vrs 4+…
Lukas the Trickster… his special rule REMOVES FROM PLAY, and they FAQ to say anything that allows a “return to play” ability works… in the faq it says it is odd but it works….

I mean those of you that are saying SA kills EL completely without a EL roll … what happens if you kill the whole squad and all that is left is the EL counter?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW I can not find the rules for "Removed from play" any where... can someone tell me where that rule is at? I would like to read where the diffrence is between Removed as a casualty and Removed from play.

arch1angel - no, Lukas does NOT remove from play, it removes rfom play AS A CASUALTY. Read the whole rule next time.

Removed from play is not a defined rule, but works perfectly in English. So it works.

Finally - EL CANNOT save the unit from Sweeping Advance. The Unit (The EL IC, as an example) COULD COME BACK, if you place an EL counter, thus you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - and NOTHING in RP says it works against SA, so it doesnt.

If you wish to claim you can save the unit (as in, the unit is destroyed and then comes back) please find a rule actually allowing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Finally - EL CANNOT save the unit from Sweeping Advance.

You make a good point that no save can stop a sweeping advance from destroying the unit unless specifically noted in the special abilities' rules. EL does not specially note anything of the sort. Thankfully that is not the point I was trying to make. What I am asking people to consider, is what if SA does destroy the unit, but does not forbid an EL roll for it to come back. In your discussion, refer to "save" when I think you mean "rescue." Save has a very specific meaning in 40k.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Unit (The EL IC, as an example) COULD COME BACK, if you place an EL counter, thus you are ATTEMPTING to save the unit - and NOTHING in RP says it works against SA, so it doesnt. If you wish to claim you can save the unit (as in, the unit is destroyed and then comes back) please find a rule actually allowing it.

The rule that might allow it is Ever Living. RP clearly does not (IMO). But EL is debatable. I think it's fairly clear that EL allows for a model to come back from the whole unit being destroyed. I think that while we are talking about rules that are not defined but clear in English we should remember that "removed from play" is not the same thing as "removed from the game"

Finally, I think a better and more productive question is not "does EL allow the character to come back from SA?" but "does SA stop EL from working?" Looking at the language of SA on p40 BRB, I see that "The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special
rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the
battle is over."

For me, the more convincing part is the last clause, "for them the battle is over" It sounds fluffish, but seems like pretty strong language in favor of no coming back.

@nosferatu - I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want to understand it a bit better and be sure.

kirsanth wrote:

bagtagger wrote:What are you talking about?

The actual rules, how about you?

Obvious Troll is Obvious

foolishmortal wrote:
I'm still interested in hearing opinions on whether or not an EL counter generated before the SA is removed by the SA. That would be helpful to know.

I agree, I would love to know what everyone thinks about this.

I believe there was consensus on this issue a few weeks back but I cannot find the thread, I think it was started by Jy2.

In any case the question is basically If a cryptek was destroyed and left an ever living token during combat and then his unit was swept could he make his ever living roll. I believe the Necron Codex only references removing RP Tokens when falling back not EL Tokens but I could be wrong.

Either way if you sweep the rest of the Necrons its pretty easy to stand on one or two EL Tokens to keep them down anyway, so not the most useful thing in any case.

Icemyn wrote:In any case the question is basically If a cryptek was destroyed and left an ever living token during combat and then his unit was swept could he make his ever living roll.

No, he could not, and here is why.

If a model with EL was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty, and passes its EL roll, it must be placed in coherency with that unit when it returns. Why? Because it is still considered a part of the unit. If it were not considered a part of the unit, then it would return within 3" of the counter just like a character that had not joined a unit.

So, a Cryptek joins a unit of 6 warriors. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now 3 warriors are also removed. So 3 RP counters are placed. The remaining 3 warriors get swept. Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Now on the flip side, say you have that same unit, 6 warriors and a Cryptek. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now the remining warriors are also removed. No RP counters are placed because the warriors have been wiped out. But the FAQ says then when the unit is wiped out, which in this case they were, you still get to roll EL for the Cryptek. Because you can't sweeping advance a unit that has been removed.

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

I know GW e-mails are worth less then a ha'penny here, but I did e-mail them this question a couple of days ago. If they ever reply, I'll let you know what was said, if you are curious.

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

time wizard wrote:Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

so nos...
what is the diffrence between
Removes from play
removes from play as casulty
wiped out
dies to failed armor save

?? and rules to define the diffrence? to me they all mean the same thing

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Rules basis for this please.

time wizard wrote:Sweeping advance destroys the unit.

If an IC is joined to a unit, and the unit gets swept, the IC is destroyed along with the rest of the unit.

Since neither RP nor EL specifically says they work against sweeping advance, then they don't.

I have cited the SA rule, and the part that says, "Unless otherwise specified..." four times now.

If anyone still thinks that either RP or EL saves a unit from a sweeping advance, please quote me the part of the rule that specifies that it does.

Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

rigeld2 wrote:Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

That's not the point.

What is specifically telling you that you that if a model with the EL rule is caught in a sweeping advance that the EL counter is not removed and the roll is made anyway?

Nothing in either RP or EL says that the counters are not removed when the unit is swept.

That's what "Unless otherwise specified" means.

rigeld2 wrote:
What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

What is telling you that EL can 'save' a unit that has been removed via sweeping advance?

Edit: TimeWizard beat me to the punch, he is so sneaky!

So, if the Necron unit is completely destroyed via attacks made during the close combat phase, all of them can come back, but if they -aren't- all killed, and fail a leadership test, they can't come back? Doesn't make much sense to me.

We've always played it that all the various "removed from play", "removed as a casualty" etc etc, mean the same thing: kill the model. It simplifies many things, and there are fewer arguments. Obviously you can't apply a house rule in a tournament, but it works for us.

Someone raised a good point before, as well, in that if the character in question got killed -before- everyone else, and an EL counter was placed, does the counter still count as part of the unit for the purposes of Sweeping Advance? In which case, would the counter be removed with the unit?

time wizard wrote:

No, he could not, and here is why.

If a model with EL was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty, and passes its EL roll, it must be placed in coherency with that unit when it returns. Why? Because it is still considered a part of the unit. If it were not considered a part of the unit, then it would return within 3" of the counter just like a character that had not joined a unit.

Whether or not it returns to a unit or not it is still considered part of the unit. It can still return on its own as per the FAQ.

time wizard wrote:
So, a Cryptek joins a unit of 6 warriors. The Cryptek is removed as a casualty and an EL counter is placed. Now 3 warriors are also removed. So 3 RP counters are placed. The remaining 3 warriors get swept. Now the entire unit is destroyed and all the counters, both RP and EL are removed.

Where does it say that you remove the EL Counter? I understand that you remove RP because there are none of those models left so they are obviously removed as well as they are removed for the unit falling back.
I cant find any rules that say you remove the EL Counter.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Sigh...

Nothing is saving the unit from SA. Nothing. Not one rule. The entire unit is destroyed. Congratulations.

What is telling you to remove an EL counter that was placed before the unit had the initiative test?

That's not the point.

What is specifically telling you that you that if a model with the EL rule is caught in a sweeping advance that the EL counter is not removed and the roll is made anyway?

Nothing in either RP or EL says that the counters are not removed when the unit is swept.

That's what "Unless otherwise specified" means.

I've stopped arguing that I can EL from SA - that's not worth my time.
An EL model dies at init 4. It places an EL counter. The necron unit gets swept.
What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

rigeld2 wrote:What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

The best argument I have read without refute is you are not allowed to place one since that gives an attempt to save the unit/model.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:What gives you permission to remove that EL counter?

The best argument I have read without refute is you are not allowed to place one since that gives an attempt to save the unit/model.

Re-read what I wrote. If the EL counter is placed before the assault is resolved (IE - when you do sweeping advance) what gives you permission to remove that counter?

Oh, I did mis-read. Thank you.

Then the fact that the counter is for a special rule to save the unit from SA's destruction.

It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

editing to add:
You do not rescue someone from a fire before the fire happens. You do so after it starts, and even completely after-the-fact.

kirsanth wrote:It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

But nothing did rescue the unit. SA wiped all the models that are on the board, off the board.

Does it change it's an IC EL counter?

I doubt it, but it has a bit of a better case.

Either way, you are rescuing a unit from the destruction by SA. Saying it is ok because it is later in the phase/game is ridiculous to me.

/shrug

i have played this and with the same thing.. cryptek with 7 warriors.. Space Marine assult squad assaults the unit.. chop chop chop... ( as a necron player i know sweeping advances are my biggest weakness and almost a always going to happen. sooooo when i am removing my Casualties during this phase I make sure, and remove my cyptek as a casualty and place a EL token down first.. This Action Triggers the EL rule because I removed him as a Casualty during the Chop chop chop part. Then I end up losing like 4 warriors.. I place the RP markers down for the warriors.. then the phase is over..i’ve lost the combat .. I roll for LD with -4 modif.. Normally failing.. and then loose the remaining 3 models to Sweep Advance once that happen. I then remove the 4 RP markers because the RP rule says that if this happens, I have to remove the RP Markers. but I do not Remove the EL marker because the Cryptek is a IC with the EL rule and was removed as a Casualty during battle not during the SA.

So I feel to answer this question is really based on whether the necron player is smart enough to know what is going to happen and when and what he/she should anticipate happening. Now I will say that if the cryptek is left on the board and gets removed during the SA then that is the necron players fault and does not get the EL token. Be smart and know how to play your units.. everyone removes the IC last in battle because this is the space marine way.. "Remove the guy with the power fist last".. necrons need to think outside the box.. if you get assaulted.. Remove your IC first (crypteks only, i do not recomend this with over lords, named lords, destroyer lords) so you can try for an EL.. because you are probable going to get SA in close combat. So to me it’s a Tactic Necron players should learn.. if they let the IC get removed by SA then that’s their fault on why they don’t get EL.

Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done. also when i talk about this tactic, i'm refering to a unit of warriors with a cryptek. i do not practice this with over lords, named lords and " Assult Units " And that’s my two cents..lol.

Necronmike wrote: Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done.

I just wanted to address this point, because I've stated my position backed up by the rules quite clearly in this thred.

Have a look at page 33 in the main rulebook, at the assault Phase Summary.

Under '3 Resolve Combats'
1st bullet point is pick a combat
2nd bullet point is fight
3rd bullet point is determint results
4th bullet point is check morale
5th bullet point is sweeping advance
6th bullet point pile in
7th bullet point is pick another combat and repeat.

Sweeping advance does not take place when the assault phase is done, it takes place (if it occurs) during each particular combat.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote: Also keep in mind.. that Sweeping Advance happens after the Assault phase is done.

I just wanted to address this point, because I've stated my position backed up by the rules quite clearly in this thred.

Have a look at page 33 in the main rulebook, at the assault Phase Summary.

Under '3 Resolve Combats'
1st bullet point is pick a combat
2nd bullet point is fight
3rd bullet point is determint results
4th bullet point is check morale
5th bullet point is sweeping advance
6th bullet point pile in
7th bullet point is pick another combat and repeat.

Sweeping advance does not take place when the assault phase is done, it takes place (if it occurs) during each particular combat.

Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

arch1angel wrote:so nos...
what is the diffrence between
Removes from play
removes from play as casulty
wiped out
dies to failed armor save

?? and rules to define the diffrence? to me they all mean the same thing

Remove from Play: The model is removed. Except for St. Celestine there is no way to come back from these abilities.
Remove From Play as a Casualty: The model is removed as if it has lost its last Wound. However, special abilities that come into effect off of losing last wound do not apply.
Wiped Out: Your opponent has no models left on the table at the end of a standard mission. If this happens before the final round, you win.
Dies from Wounds: The model is removed from play as a casualty, but anything that happens when you lose your last wound still apply.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It does not change that its token rescues it from said destruction by saying its ok because it was after-the-fact. In fact, it would be awkward to call it 'rescue' if it wasn't afterward.

But nothing did rescue the unit. SA wiped all the models that are on the board, off the board.

Does it change it's an IC EL counter?

So, you have a unit A

It gets sweeping advanced, and is destroyed because the special rule does not state it isnt

You then try to roll to recover unit A, breaking the SA rule becausey ou have tried to save the unit using a special rle that does not specify it works against SA

It doesnt matter WHEN the unit reappears - you have tried to save a unit via a special rule that does not say it works against SA. This is against the rules. So while you dont remove the EL counter then per se, it is irrelevant as if you try to roll for EL you will be breaking a rule

nos, seeing as how I answered the question posed for you, do you mind checking/fixing my answers?

Necronmike wrote:
Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

It does change how you play the example. Your answer to the rules question was 'if you play smart you can save an Everliving model' which presupposes you can save an Everliving model when its unit is subject to Sweeping advance. This is not an argument for taking the Everliving save at all. Generally speaking the idea is to 'break no rule unless given permission,' so when one rule says nothing can save the unit from SA unless specifically stated it can save it from SA and the other says you can save the unit with XYZ with no mention of SA, you are breaking the SA rule without permission to do so.

Happy - dont see a problem with the first couple, although may be worth saying that RfPlay as a Casualty is equivalent to remove as a casualty

On a side note,
Seeing as though this has been resolved many times in the thread (as in, the effects aren't triggered) i'll just say this side note.

I love how the necron folk now have something else to argue about when its gotten a new codex. I cant remember how many threads there has been on this topic before!

calypso2ts wrote:

Necronmike wrote:
Point taken.. didn't pay close enough attention to this.. but i don't think this effects on how i play the example above.

It does change how you play the example. Your answer to the rules question was 'if you play smart you can save an Everliving model' which presupposes you can save an Everliving model when its unit is subject to Sweeping advance. This is not an argument for taking the Everliving save at all. Generally speaking the idea is to 'break no rule unless given permission,' so when one rule says nothing can save the unit from SA unless specifically stated it can save it from SA and the other says you can save the unit with XYZ with no mention of SA, you are breaking the SA rule without permission to do so.

sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now i will say this much.. what difference is one cryptek going to do against a unit of " what ever " that just destroyed them... not much chances are he will get killed agian.. unless you got VOD to get out of there

The effectiveness of the unit you have tried to save is entirely irrelevant.

You have attempted to save the unit using a special rule. You cannot do this against SA, because your special rule does not specify it works against SA.

end of.

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is against the rules. So while you dont remove the EL counter then per se, it is irrelevant as if you try to roll for EL you will be breaking a rule

I do not disagree with you, in general.

I do not see that EL/RP/Thrawn/Whatever getting back up is an attempt to save the unit. The unit was wiped out.

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

And anything that puts it on the table after being wiped out has rescued it from that fate.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

And anything that puts it on the table after being wiped out has rescued it from that fate.

erm, no. The unit was wiped out. The winning unit was able to consolidate. The assault is over.

Or do you not get to consolidate if the unit you just slaughtered (ignoring SA for now) has EL counters on the ground?

I'd play it as SA > *, but I could absolutely see GW ruling the other way.

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

You keep saying that. Then saying it is ok to rescue said unit with a special rule because you do it later in the game.

I do not think that second bit is true.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: The unit was wiped out.

You keep saying that. Then saying it is ok to rescue said unit with a special rule because you do it later in the game.

I do not think that second bit is true.

You keep using the word rescue. I don't consider it a rescue if SA had it's effect. Rescue would be a save, a dodge, something to stop SA from working. SA worked. Nothing stopped it.

rigeld2 wrote: Rescue would be a save . . .

Then they would not have said save or rescue.
Rescuing someone from a situation requires that situation to occur.
Otherwise you are helping them avoid it or saving them from going through it.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: Rescue would be a save . . .

Then they would not have said save or rescue.
Rescuing someone from a situation requires that situation to occur.
Otherwise you are helping them avoid it or saving them from going through it.

Right. The situation occurs. SA happens. It is not stopped from happening. All models on the board are destroyed, and nothing can stop it.
Nothing stops it.
There's an EL counter to resolve.

rigeld2 wrote:There's an EL counter to resolve.

Putting a destroyed unit on the table is a very literal definition of rescuing them from that situation. Regardless of when it occurs.

Editing to add:
Just to be clear, I understand your point.
You do not need to repeat it, because you are wrong.

Feel free to agree/quote/reply with those last two lines without agreeing to the rest.

And assuming, you pass the EL roll, was the unit destroyed and immediately removed with the battle being over for them?

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:There's an EL counter to resolve.

Putting a destroyed unit on the table is a very literal definition of rescuing them from that situation. Regardless of when it occurs.

Editing to add:
Just to be clear, I understand your point.
You do not need to repeat it, because you are wrong.

Feel free to agree/quote/reply with those last two lines without agreeing to the rest.

a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

If the Cryptek/Lord is a part of the unit, and that unit was destroyed by a Sweeping Advance, then the Cryptek/Lord must also be destroyed.
If he comes back, then that unit wasn't destroyed.

rigeld2 wrote:a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.

To be fair, me too - which is kind of what I meant with the edit.

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

I have a bit of an odd opinion about some of that - which is why I said earlier that it has a better case.

If he was not joined at all, I can see no reason it even relates - if it was the issue gets into ICs counting as their own separate unit for CC and how you read that.
Most would say the IC is swept too.

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

Main rules, page 49 under 'Independent Characters & Assaults', 2nd paragraph, last sentence, "Once all attacks have been made, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining asssault results onwards)."

When morale check is made, the IC is a normal member of the unit. If the unit gets swept and destroyed, then the IC as part of the unit is also destroyed.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:a) I don't think it's clear that that argument is "wrong" but I'm willing to concede it.

To be fair, me too - which is kind of what I meant with the edit.

At least I'm not alone

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

I have a bit of an odd opinion about some of that - which is why I said earlier that it has a better case.

If he was not joined at all, I can see no reason it even relates - if it was the issue gets into ICs counting as their own separate unit for CC and how you read that.
Most would say the IC is swept too.

Right - if he wasn't joined, it doesn't matter.

If he was standing when the SA is rolled, yes he's gone. 100%.
The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.
His unit did not get swept. The unit he was joined to before he was killed was swept.
Him standing back up doesn't "rescue" that unit. It has absolutely nothing to do with that (the swept) unit.
edit: I suck at the quotez.

rigeld2 wrote:The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.

This is most of why I disagree. Your special rule cannot save/rescue you regardless of when it occurs.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
b) what happens if it's an IC that is downed in combat (not from the SA). Since he's not part of the unit that was SA'd, can he EL back up?

Main rules, page 49 under 'Independent Characters & Assaults', 2nd paragraph, last sentence, "Once all attacks have been made, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining asssault results onwards)."

When morale check is made, the IC is a normal member of the unit. If the unit gets swept and destroyed, then the IC as part of the unit is also destroyed.

Yes - if he's still standing, you're right.

If he's down before the SA is he still a member of the unit? Even if so, does him standing violate SA (since he's not rescuing the unit)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The issue is if he's only an EL counter when the SA is rolled.

This is most of why I disagree. Your special rule cannot save/rescue you regardless of when it occurs.

You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Necronmike wrote:
sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

Edit: Changed save to rescue to be consistent with the SA terminology.

Edit: I agree it is a more complex argument for an attached IC to the unit, although I think the same theory applies it definitely becomes muddier.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

Yes. The EL rule, second paragraph says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed and passes its roll, it must be returned to play incoherency with that unit.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You didn't sweep the IC. You swept the unit the IC used to be a member of. You stabbed the IC in the face. The IC was never involved in the SA.

The IC is again a member of the unit, by most accounts, by the time you get to SA.


Check the rules for IC interaction with Morale checks for casualties.

Ignoring SA - since I don't have the Necron codex...

Is an EL IC required to stand back up with the unit it was in before it was stabbed in the face?

Yes. The EL rule, second paragraph says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed and passes its roll, it must be returned to play incoherency with that unit.

Very well. Thanks.

Unless the unit is wiped, then its within 3" of the marker. Per the FAQ.

calypso2ts wrote:

Necronmike wrote:
sorry i don't see how it changes any thing.. if i remove my cryptek as a "casualty" and place an EL token down and then the unit gets SA.. then the EL Token is still left because it does not go by the same rule as RP.. so yes after its said and done.. i get to attempt an EL roll. my cryptek was not removed off the board from the SA it was removed as a Casualty.. according to this thread, that alone is the Difference on how or what Removed the model.

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

Edit: Changed save to rescue to be consistent with the SA terminology.

Edit: I agree it is a more complex argument for an attached IC to the unit, although I think the same theory applies it definitely becomes muddier.

As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

what gets me is all this is over can we use EL marker if a SA takes place.. but the real question is.. when did you Put the EL down? because if the model was still standing when the SA took place then no you don't get to put a EL marker down. but if he was killed before the SA took place then yes the EL marker is applyed and you get a chance at it after the enemy unit consolidates after the SA. all this to try and keep necrons down when they are designed to "get back up" this rest at the hands of the Necron player.. if the player has his lord or cryptek still standing when a SA happens.. then too bad for them you get no EL marker. on the other hand.. Removing your lord or cryptek before the SA is also a gamble.. because what happens if the SA never happens..and you are stuck in combat.. good luck rolling 5+ to get him back up . .you just lost your cryptek or lord.

Why is it a unit of its own?

the closest analogy we have is WG: you need to kill the WG+attached to unit to get the KP, as they are one unit.

It isnt a retinue.

Also: IT DOESNT MATTER WHEN THE EL MODEL DIES. If their unit is swept, they are DEAD. DESTROYED. GONE

Attempting to bring the unit back by rolling EL BREAKS A RULE

Necronmike wrote: but the real question is.. when did you Put the EL down?

Actually, the real question is, was the Cryptek part of the unit when the sweeping advance occurred?
If so, then when the unit was swept, the unit was destroyed, and that means every model in the unit!

Necronmike wrote:good luck rolling 5+ to get him back up . .you just lost your cryptek or lord.

Which really has nothing to do with sweeping advance.

Crypteks and lords come from the Royal court and that is under the HQ section, so there for it is its own unit, even if it is attached to a unit of warriors.. Can a Cryptek leave its unit of warriors and join a unit of Immortals.. better yet can a Cryptek.. VOD a unit of warriors to a location ,, then next round leave the unit VOD to join a unit of Imortals or what ever? the answer is????? if yes then Crypteks and lords are thier own units you should count it as so.

There is no way you get two kill points for killing a unit of warriors who had a cryptec in it. They are not IC they are characters, they are sergent upgrades. If the Cryptek is alive then the unit confers no KP.

Wether or not you get back up from a SA, you definetly don't confer the additional point. (Honestly the simple answer is, kill your cryptek first when assaulted. Then it gets a EL roll either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if a unit is falling back, do you get EL rolls?

Necronmike wrote:As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

Wrong. It's all one unit - the Crypteks aren't part of the royal court anymore, they're part of the warrior unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:As a mater of Fact you do get a kill point for the unit even if i do bring back the Cryptek.. because that is a unit of its own.. so you should keep inmind.. that when you are battling Necrons and you kill a unit of warriors with a lord or cryptek attached.. you get two kill points for that not just one.

Wrong. It's all one unit - the Crypteks aren't part of the royal court anymore, they're part of the warrior unit.

so what your saying is if i have a lord or cryptek join a unit of warriors, then he no longer belongs to the Royal Court? can you give me the section of the Codex that states this? i don't see where it says that if they join a unit they are not members of the Royal Court any more... maybe we should start a thread on this alone before we get off the current subject. lol

Well, they certainly arent members of the Royal Court UNIT any longer, are they?

well the Royal Court "Unit" no.. but does that mean he don't belong to the Royal Court? he becomes a basic warrior with special powers? i don't know guys i'm asking for help on this one.. would like to know how we get they are not part of the royal court any more.. i mean thats fine if it is so.. just mean i can stop giving two kill points to my one unit of warriors / crypteks.... and i think we getting away from subject on this thread maybe we should start a new thread about this?

So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

Necronmike wrote:well the Royal Court "Unit" no.. but does that mean he don't belong to the Royal Court? he becomes a basic warrior with special powers? i don't know guys i'm asking for help on this one.. would like to know how we get they are not part of the royal court any more.. i mean thats fine if it is so.. just mean i can stop giving two kill points to my one unit of warriors / crypteks.... and i think we getting away from subject on this thread maybe we should start a new thread about this?

Go read the Space Wolf Pack Leader FAQ. Since that's the closest we have to a Royal Court as far as how to handle KP, you should follow that.

Also, no Crypteks and Lords can't leave a unit after joining it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

ok how do we come up with this? and is it a rule in the big rule book? because i'm not seeing where the codex says that crypteks and lords that join a unit no longer belong to the Royal Court. need page number and spoon please lol

Necronmike wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a wolf guard assigned to a unit is still a member of the wg unit?

No. The entire thing is ONE unit and ONE unit only.

ok how do we come up with this? and is it a rule in the big rule book? because i'm not seeing where the codex says that crypteks and lords that join a unit no longer belong to the Royal Court. need page number and spoon please lol

Necron Codex, page 90, says that a member of the royal court can split off and be assigned to lead a different unit. That only one member can join each unit. Then it ends with "Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court."

So a Cryptek or a Lord that splits off and joins a different unit is no longer part of the Royal Court.

think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ time wizard.. we posted the same thing at the same time.. lol.. too funny.. yep it took me a double take and then it clicked .. thanks though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Necronmike wrote:think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit

but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Not really. In fact it re-affirms that the Cryptek or Lord is in fact a part of the joined unit. And if the unit they join is caught in a sweeping advance, then the unit is destroyed. Every member of the unit. And this naturally includes the Cryptek and/or the Lord. Even if they are 'down' awaiting a roll to return to life.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote:think i found it.. pg 90 in codex.. under HQ and rolyal court. right above the Lord stats the last sentce states.. " only one member of the royal court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the royal court. ".. sooo no i only have to give one kill point with my warrior / cryptek unit

but i think this is off the current thread subject lol

Not really. In fact it re-affirms that the Cryptek or Lord is in fact a part of the joined unit. And if the unit they join is caught in a sweeping advance, then the unit is destroyed. Every member of the unit. And this naturally includes the Cryptek and/or the Lord. Even if they are 'down' awaiting a roll to return to life.

hmmm strange that makes total since. not really sure i can argue that now known what i know about the Royal Court, reguardless if it has the EL special rule or not. strange enough that is logical..i'll have to wrap my head around this. good point Time Wizard.

I'm interested in the line " no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage . SA being the stage we are talking about , the last action in the assault phase .
The attempt to return an EL model is made at the end of the phase - after the SA is made , an argument could be made that this is a different stage , after all a save is not being attempted at the SA 'stage' .

I cant see a mention that an SA would remove a counter in the event of a sweeping advance .

Im not particularly arguing one way or the other - I can see the leaning of the majority consensus in this thread .

Dynamix wrote: I'm interested in the line " no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage . SA being the stage we are talking about , the last action in the assault phase .
The attempt to return an EL model is made at the end of the phase - after the SA is made , an argument could be made that this is a different stage , after all a save is not being attempted at the SA 'stage' .

Good point. So at the SA stage, the unit is destroyed. Removed from the table. All the remaining models and all the counters. This is before the end of the assault phase which is when any applicable RP or EL rolls would be made.
Makes no difference at all in the case of sweeping advance.

Dynamix wrote: I cant see a mention that an SA would remove a counter in the event of a sweeping advance .

Because it is not up to the SA rule had to mention each and every special rule. It is up to the special rule to specifically state that the sweeping attack rule does not apply to a particular army, model or unit.

Quick question. How far back did those EL counters fall back? Or more specifically, what was the result of the initiative test to see if they got swept? I know the RP counters are removed because the rules tell me to do so, but EL counters are not, as far as I can tell, a part of a unit. If they aren't subject to the start of the SA rule, why would they be affected by the end of it?

Some have refered to SA having special properties that I was unaware of. Other than the entry in the BRB is there something else you are referring to? FAQs? INAT? cite your source or post it here please.

The only special property that SA has is that the unit is destroyed. Not killed. Not removed from play. Not removed from play as a casualty. Destroyed. As in no longer a playable unit for the game. Unless the unit has a special rule that specifically tells you that it cannot be swept, or that something else happens if it is swept. Page 40.

calypso2ts wrote:

Do I get a Kill Point for the unit if you bring back the Cryptek/Lord attached? If the answer is no, then you 'rescued' the unit. The unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance, it cannot be rescued. Rescuing an individual model in a swept unit so that the unit can still exists is still rescuing the unit.

+1

Also, if the IC was attached to the unit at the beginning of the assault phase, then it is swept right along with the unit regardless of when it actually 'died'. I'm not entirely sure if this is correct, but IMO it just makes sense to apply it this way.

Happyjew wrote: Destroyed. As in no longer a playable unit for the game.

I agree that that is often the case for the context of "destroyed" in the BRB, "weapon destroyed" being the only major exception, and this probably falls under the category of "Unless otherwise specified [by a] special rule" as the rules that repair destroyed weapons are fairly specific and special.

I just don't see it defined that way in the BRB.
Lots of fluff support...
"for them the battle is over"
"We assume that the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing"
"scatters and deserts the battle"
That's why I was asking if there was some other ruling people were thinking of that I had missed.

If I had to define "destroyed" based on BRB context, I would say something like...
"Removed from the game as a result of an unspecified combination of death, crippling injury, equipment damage, demoralization, and general no-longer-usefulness. No ability may bring something destroyed back to game unless it is explicit stated that it works on destroyed things" That would clarify a lot.

I did come across an interesting point in trying to confirm / clarify all this. p95 BRB Deep strike Mishap table 1-2
"Terrible accident! Teleporting troops are
lost in the Warp, deep striking jump infantry
are shot down with their transport, or some
other suitably dramatic event occurs. The
entire unit is destroyed!"

I would not try to claim EL rolls from a deep strike mishap. i would see it as against RAW and RAI, but I'm willing to bet somewhere, someone already has tried it.

how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

I am leaning strongly towards NO. EL does not specify that it brings a model back from destroyed. The whole unit is destroyed in a SA. The dead model with EL is still part of the unit (not on the table, but still part of the unit) Dying doesn't remove you from a unit, otherwise Ghost Ark's Repair Barge ability would never work.

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

not entirely, IF the EL token is made during the attacks ie gets killed before combat resolution then where does it say you remove the token during SA?

Hukoseft wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:how bout we put it this way....if a model with EL (people stop saying IC because this would count for lords and crypteks too which aren't IC's) dies in the shooting phase, the unit flees do they still get their EL roll? because if im not mistaken, which i could be, if the unit flees you dont get RP

You do get EL, because you only remove RP counters. Unless you are one of the creative few who think you remove all counters of any kind.

Fleeing from a panic check is not the same as being destroyed by SA, either. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges here

not entirely, IF the EL token is made during the attacks ie gets killed before combat resolution then where does it say you remove the token during SA?

You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

time wizard wrote:You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

Not true.
Permissive rule set. I had permission to place the counter. Where is the permission to clear the counter?

I've already had this argument, I'm just addressing this mis-statement.

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:You have it backwards. Where in the EL rule does it say if the unit is destroyed by SA that the counter is not removed?

Not true.
Permissive rule set. I had permission to place the counter. Where is the permission to clear the counter?

I've already had this argument, I'm just addressing this mis-statement.

Yes, permissive ruleset.

"Unless otherwise specified, nosave or other special rule can rescue the unit..."

Where is the permission in EL to not remove the counter when the unit is destroyed by a sweeping advance?

but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

time wizard wrote:Where is the permission in EL to not remove the counter when the unit is destroyed by a sweeping advance?

EL counters can be rolled for when the unit is destroyed.
SA destroys units.
Does SA have any permission to remove counters?
RP counters are removed because RP says to remove them.
EL counters aren't removed when the rest of the unit is destroyed.

Hukoseft wrote:but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

Because it would 'save' the unit. If the unit is on the board any time after it is swept, it has been 'saved', which is disallowed by the SA rule.

Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

Lordhat wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:but the counter is placed before SA comes into place, RP states that you remove it when a unit flees (aka triggering SA), EL does not therefore why would you remove it?

Because it would 'save' the unit. If the unit is on the board any time after it is swept, it has been 'saved', which is disallowed by the SA rule.

that is a bit of a reach, SA does not say that, it says that the unit is destroyed....yes well that model doesn't exist atm but a counter saying it can resurrect does, nowhere does it say this counter is removed (counters dont get destroyed see)

RP says to remove when unit flees, EL does not therefore you dont, the SA doesn't actually come into play here

model with EL dies....generates EL token

some models with RP die, the generate RP tokens

that unit loses combat and flees, all RP tokens are removed

the rest of the unit gets caught in sweeping advance

EL states it can still be tested for if the unit has been destroyed...test for EL (and most likely fail because you needed one more higher )





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rigeld2 wrote:Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

if the model was alive when the unit flees and gets SA then its removed, if it dies before fleeing (causing the EL token to be generated) then it can test to come back

rigeld2 wrote:
EL counters aren't removed when the rest of the unit is destroyed.

If a character with EL is joined to a unit and makes its EL roll, it must be placed back in coherency with the unit. Clearly it is still part of the unit.

The Necron FAQ does indeed say if the entire unit gets wiped out, the character can make an EL roll.

But there are many ways to get wiped out. By riding in a flat out skimmer that gets wrecked in its movement phase, by being shot to death, but being crushed in an assault.

But SA says 2 important things. First is that the entire unit is destroyed and second that to avoid this fate, the special rule has to specifically state that it negates or overrides SA.
As was previously stated, all variants of space marine ATSKNF specifically say they are not destroyed if caught by a sweeping advance.

Neither RP, not EL nor even the latest FAQ specifically state that any of these roll may be taken if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

Hukoseft wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously - if you're going to continue to try and argue that you can come back after SA you need to read the entire thread. As far as I know every possibility has been covered.

if the model was alive when the unit flees and gets SA then its removed, if it dies before fleeing (causing the EL token to be generated) then it can test to come back

Covered that. You must have missed it.

but its not being subjugated to SA, the rest of the unit which is being destroyed is, its not saving itself from a SA, its saving itself from being killed but the preceding attack

if there is no unit left it gets placed within 3" of the token it generated

time wizard wrote:If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

Agreed. Spelling it out the way you did in this post helps. Simply stating it the way you did when I commented did not.

based on the EL rule and how the Royal Court is.. if your unit gets sweep away.. you then remove RP counters as well because there is no more warriors left.. but then you can't EL either because, EL rule says that if your model is attached to the unit then it must return to that unit.. and if the unit is not there because of SA .. then you can't place your EL charcter back in the unit so there for you remove from play... look at first sentence of EL rule.. that says if the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty and the roll was passed it must return to play with a single wound in coherency with that unit as explained in RP rules... then look at second to last sentence .. . if the returning model cannot be placed, for what ever reason , it is lost and does not return.. this is because when the SA happen and you lost your RP markers there is no more unit to join there for it can't be placed. .. as much as i would like to come back from a EL roll.. the codex isn't going to let me.. (sucks) maybe it will get FAQ next time.. but look at PG2 of BRB .. "the most important rule" is what i like..lol

GW uses the word "Destroyed"is used in a in a limited set of contexts in the 5th ed BRB

Sweeping advance
Vehicle damage
Fleeing and trapped
Deep strike mishap

It's not used in reference to shooting casualties or normal assault casualties. There seems to be a need for a specific rule to allow a destroyed BLANK to be returned to the game from being destroyed.

hey every one.. hmmm this has been FAQ... Necron Official Update version 2.0 page number 1.. second row.. last Q and A.. it states..

Q: if an entire unit , including an attached character from a royal court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation protocol rolls? (p29)

A: you would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out...

so yes to the EL after SA.

Necronmike wrote:hey every one.. hmmm this has been FAQ... Necron Official Update version 2.0 page number 1.. second row.. last Q and A.. it states..

Q: if an entire unit , including an attached character from a royal court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation protocol rolls? (p29)

A: you would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out...

so yes to the EL after SA.

Except that question has nothing to do with SA. Keep trying.

why wouldn't it? SA wipes out a unit


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i think SA wipes out a unit.. that is it in the RAW. FAQ doesnt say how the unit has to be wiped out just says that wiped out.


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or is this going to be one of those things were we start digging into the BRB to see how the word " wiped out " is used and if since SA don't say wiped out then you can't .. hmmm i'll refer back to BRB page 2 " The Most Important Rule "

so this FAQ cleared it up .. thanks GW !!

there is a forum rule here that trumps p2

Tenants of You Make the Call
#7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

p2 is contextually specific to keeping the game going and not getting bogged down by lengthy rule analysis. Dakka YMTC is all about those things

Necronmike wrote:why wouldn't it? SA wipes out a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i think SA wipes out a unit.. that is it in the RAW. FAQ doesnt say how the unit has to be wiped out just says that wiped out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or is this going to be one of those things were we start digging into the BRB to see how the word " wiped out " is used and if since SA don't say wiped out then you can't .. hmmm i'll refer back to BRB page 2 " The Most Important Rule "

so this FAQ cleared it up .. thanks GW !!

In case you mised this.

time wizard wrote:
If a character with EL is joined to a unit and makes its EL roll, it must be placed back in coherency with the unit. Clearly it is still part of the unit.

The Necron FAQ does indeed say if the entire unit gets wiped out, the character can make an EL roll.

But there are many ways to get wiped out. By riding in a flat out skimmer that gets wrecked in its movement phase, by being shot to death, but being crushed in an assault.

But SA says 2 important things. First is that the entire unit is destroyed and second that to avoid this fate, the special rule has to specifically state that it negates or overrides SA.
As was previously stated, all variants of space marine ATSKNF specifically say they are not destroyed if caught by a sweeping advance.

Neither RP, not EL nor even the latest FAQ specifically state that any of these roll may be taken if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

If a future addendum or FAQ comes out saying so, I'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. But for now, none of the items I mentioned say anything at all about SA, so they do not negate being destroyed by SA.

hmmm ok Time.. yeah i didn't get that second post. dang it..lol

The unit is destroyed

The counter coudl restore the unit, therefore the counter must also go

Seriously, this isnt difficult. Does you special rule say you can survive SA? No? Well guess what - you dont.

As for the fluff - the unit isn't necessarily dead, just so shook up or shattered that they can't rejoin the battle. The EL guy might well get up again, just not in any shape or frame of mind to go back to the battle.

The only hole in your argument time wizard (and for the record I agree with you) is that you've not proven that a model with EL is in fact avoiding anything.

SA is successfully resolved against the model from start to finish. It just gets a chance to get back up AFTER. It's not avoiding the effect, it goes all the way to fruition. There is no rule in EL that states that it 'avoids' SA. It dies outright to it just like any model.

What you really should be focusing on is that it did not die 'as a casualty' which is really what prevents it from getting up from SA.

KP/VP issues are avoided as a result of the unit not being rescued.

In addition to the rest.

The kp/vp issue can occur outside of sweep so that doesn't really add anything

Not entirely outside, because of FAQs and such.


The if/then of those conflate parts of denying them.

Barring all of that, saying that it is ok to rescue a unit because you waited 10seconds is still ridiculous since you cannot rescue a unit without mentioning SA.

Editing to add:
And I do equate putting a destroyed unit back onto the table with it being rescued from whatever said it was destroyed.

Again, it depends on your definition of rescue.

In my mind at least, rescue means 'to prevent from coming to harm'

Nothing in the Necron codex is stopping SA from completing. In fact, the EL roll doesn't even happen inside the combat, but rather at the end of the phase.

Like I've said, I agree with the wording that SA prevents EL, but only in the sense that SA does not 'remove as a casualty' and therefore no EL counter is generated.

Just to point it out, again, EL only functions on models that have already been removed from the game, and by that definition it implies that SA has already successfully completed its entire effect at that point. The unit was not saved, it was removed from play. In the case of the EL model, the model is gone, there just happens to be a counter placed on the table (assuming that SA allows the counter to be placed, which it does not).

From there, at the end of the phase, you roll for the counter since it was not removed with the unit in the SA, and the model that counter represents gets back up.

Again, I agree with the wording that SA does not currently allow for EL to function, but only in the sense that it does not permit the counter to be placed initially.

Until then, this is just yet another item that needs to be added to the Necron FAQ.

WanderingFox wrote:From there, at the end of the phase, you roll for the counter since it was not removed with the unit in the SA, and the model that counter represents gets back up.

Again, I agree with the wording that SA does not currently allow for EL to function, but only in the sense that it does not permit the counter to be placed initially.

Until then, this is just yet another item that needs to be added to the Necron FAQ.

Ahah! Here we diverge. EL allows the counter to be placed. So, in fact does SA. That is not the issue.

Follow if you will an example.

A Cryptek is joined to a unit of 8 warriors.

In the shooting phase another unit, really doesn't matter who, but a unit with assault weapons, shoots the Cryptek/warrior unit and after the smoke clears 3 warriors are down. So 3 warrior models are removed and 3 RP counters are placed next to the unit.

Now in the Assault phase that same unit assaults the Cryptek/warrior unit. And in the assault, the Cryptek and 2 warriors go down. Now 2 more RP counters are placed next to the unit, and an EL counter is placed where the Cryptek was removed, since it has the EL rule.

The Cryptek/warrior unit failed inflict any wounds in return, so the other unit won the combat by 3 wounds. The Cryptek/warrior unit takes a morale test and rolls a 9, more than the 7 needed to pass. The 2 units will now roll a D6 and add their I value. The Cryptek/warrior unit does not roll high enough and is caught in a sweeping advance.

This unit is now destroyed. All of the models in the unit are removed. All of the counters, which reresent models that may be returned to the unit, will also have to be removed because the unit has been destroyed.

Unless RP or EL specifically said that the counters that were placed on the table after the model had suffered its last wound could or would remain there even in the event of a sweeping advance, then there is nothing that says that either the models or the counters remain. They are all picked up and removed.

Don't get me wrong here. I am of the opinion that EL at least, should still work for the character even if its unit is caught in a sweeping advance. Particularly in light of the last GW FAQ.
However, having said that, the rules are clear that "unless otherwise specified..." nothing can save a unit from a sweeping advance. ATSKNF specifically mentions that if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, it is not destroyed. Unfortunately, those words are missing from both the RP and EL Necron Special Rules. So until FAQ 2.1 says that either EL or RP counters are not removed due to sweeping advance, then at this point, they are.

I see it this way. Sweeping Advance says that the unit is destroyed and removed immediately. It also says that for the unit the battle is over. If a Crptek were to stand back up after the SA, the unit is in fact not destroyed, nor is the battle over for the unit.

Agreed Happyjew.

May not seem right, but it is.

WanderingFox wrote:Just to point it out, again, EL only functions on models that have already been removed from the game, and by that definition it implies that SA has already successfully completed its entire effect at that point. The unit was not saved, it was removed from play. In the case of the EL model, the model is gone, there just happens to be a counter placed on the table (assuming that SA allows the counter to be placed, which it does not).

I believe EL functions on models that have been removed from the table or play but not removed from the game. SA destroys the unit. In 5th BRB, destroyed has a strong context of "goodbye, don't come back without a doctor's note," the doctor's note might take the form of a faq entry, clarificaion or a nifty special rule. I would even settle for something that said "comes back from being destroyed" with no mention whatsoever of SA in the special rule/ruling. I haven't seen that yet, so I won't even try it and I will challenge anyone who tries it on me.

The issue there is that "for them the battle is over" is not relevant in game terms. It's fluff. Informational fluff, but fluff nonetheless.

@ time wizard:

EL requires "as a casualty" because it's placement is exactly like that of reanimation protocols (it just lacks the same removal conditions).

Let me get you the exact wordings:

Reanimation Protocols:
"If a model with reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty... Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it.

...

... return one of the slain models to play ...

... [u]Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit [u]has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters. Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Ever Living:
"... is removed as a casualty, do not add a reanimation protocols counter, but instead place an ever-lving counter..."

The rules go on to specify how EL is different, namely in the lack of a counter-remove stage for fall-back etc.

Important things to note:
1. They both only function when it's removed as a casualty.
2. Only RP counters are lost on a fallback
3. Characters are NOT the same unit as the unit that they are in for purposes of RP/EL

Sweeping advance states the following:
"The unit is destroyed. ... The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

SA 'destroys' which negates RP/EL. Rescue implies prevention, if EL were to still place a counter, it would not be 'preventing' SA from completing as the counter is placed after the model is removed. The unit (ie immortal squad w/ cryptek) would still die to SA. However, RP specifically states that the character is not part of the unit for purposes of RP. Specifically, this means it is not susceptible to RPs remove counter stage (see red text).

Finally, since SA has completely resolved at this stage, and the hypothetical EL counter has not been removed, you roll for it at the end of the phase and follow RP as normal.

Again, as I've stated, EL counters are not placed as SA does not remove 'as a casualty' However, current leaked 6th ed rules change this (by equating destroy, wiped out, and remove as a casualty to the same thing).

edit:
before anyone freaks about the red text, it is only in regards to RP/EL so it doesn't modify anything outside of that (KP/VP etc.)

WanderingFox wrote:......."Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Note how the characters do not count as part of the unit only for the purposes of RP.... SA is not RP. The unit is destroyed, nothing in EL or RP specifically grants immunity, therefor EL cannot be applied. As I said earlier, IC's MAY be different, but upgrade characters are definitely wiped with the squad and may not return to the field.


6th edition is still a rumour, there is really no point in bringing it up at this time.

Since most probably my english will fail me one more time if things get too complicated, I will give an example on my point of view in this.
An Overlord and a Royal Court of 5 lords gets in cc. The overlord and 2 lords die of wounds. At that point they are removed from play as a casualty and each leaves an EL counter behind.
Then the rest of the lords get caught in sweeping advance. At this stage the only unit that is affected by SA is the Royal Court. The Overlord is not part of the RC anymore as he has been removed from play. The lords get destroyed and each leaves a EL counter behind.
At the end of the cc phase you have 6 EL rolls to make. The 5 EL rolls from the lords are forfeit because if they were to be successful they would reconstitute the Royal Court which was affected by SA. The EL roll for the overlord can be attempted because if it is successful then the overlord can return to play as a single model unit that was never affected by SA.

That isnt correct.

The Lord is a normal member of the unit (page 48 and 49, as already mentioned) and so, if the unit is swept SO IS THE IC- whether he is living or not

Also: SA does not finish resolving, it is a permanent ending for that unit. NOTHING can save the unit - and this is not limited in time. If you attempt to recover the unit at a later point (rescuing them from harm, another way to define rescue) you have still broken the rules for SA - because you are trying to use a special rule to recover the unit

No matter what you try to do the unit is dead. In this the rule works EZXACTLY the same as WBB (token == downed necron) and WBB was the "poster child" example of a psecial rule that doesnt work against SA. 4th edition gave it as the canon example, in 5th the SA rule is *word for word* the same - with the exception that WBB was removed as an *example*

Lordhat wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:......."Characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols..."

Note how the characters do not count as part of the unit only for the purposes of RP.... SA is not RP. The unit is destroyed, nothing in EL or RP specifically grants immunity, therefor EL cannot be applied. As I said earlier, IC's MAY be different, but upgrade characters are definitely wiped with the squad and may not return to the field.


6th edition is still a rumour, there is really no point in bringing it up at this time.

I say exactly this in my post if you had read the whole thing.

What I was countering was the 'rescue' wording not being enough to deny el, sa denies el solely because it does not remove as a casualty...

However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.

WanderingFox wrote:However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.

And no one has brought up this argument yet.

Oh wait - I did. It's still saving the unit. And you can do it in 5th ed - kill off an EL model during the assault. SA doesn't remove the counter, and if you want to you can even roll to bring the model back - but you can't bring him back because that'd be saving the unit.

Please read the thread and try and put forth new points to discuss, or state why you feel a certain point wasn't discussed enough.

WanderingFox wrote:
What I was countering was the 'rescue' wording not being enough to deny el, sa denies el solely because it does not remove as a casualty...

However, were a counter to be placed (ie say if the proposed 6th ed change to what destroy means) then there is nothing in SA stopping EL from happening since SA would still fully resolve and thus EL is not saving anything, but rather the effect happens, the model dies, and then there is a chance for it to come back at the end of the phase.

First point wrong, SA denies it because it says it denies saving but we will get back to this.

Second point, how can EL not save a unit that has been destroyed by a SA? By definition if the unit comes back after being a victim of SA, it is being saved. What kind of novel definition of 'saved' are you using for this. Which brings me back to my first point.

This is not a one time transaction, SA triggers and nothing can stop it unless otherwise specified and this statement remains true until the end of the game...

Edit: Ninja by Rigeld, well played

...except that still doesnt work

You are not allowed to rescue / save the unit. If, after you resolve SA the unit still exists, then you haev BROKEN the rules

You are hung up on a timing issue that is entirely made up

the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Well look at it this way, if you have a character with EL and;

He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit fails morale in the shooting phase and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit fails their morale check and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit is caught in a sweeping advance, you still place a counter when he is 'killed' but due to the SA rule, he and his unit are destroyed and all the counters, RP and EL removed.

In 6 out of 7 scenarios, the model with the EL rule gets to roll to try to return to play.

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

time wizard wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Well look at it this way, if you have a character with EL and;

He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same shooting phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the shooting phase and his unit fails morale in the shooting phase and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit gets wiped out in the same assault phase, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit fails their morale check and falls back, you place a counter and roll for him to return.
He gets removed as a casualty in the assault phase and his unit is caught in a sweeping advance, you still place a counter when he is 'killed' but due to the SA rule, he and his unit are destroyed and all the counters, RP and EL removed.

In 6 out of 7 scenarios, the model with the EL rule gets to roll to try to return to play.

yeah thats fine not bad odds there. like i said either way don't matter to me.. last time i had played and had a cryptek with a unit and it got wiped out via SA. i talked to my opponet and he agreed to let me place a EL for the crptek.. after he consolidated i rolled for EL he got up then it was my turn i took a pop shot with the lance.. but then when it was his turn he just got killed again via shooting and i didn't make the second EL roll.. so really getting that one model back up didn't change the tide of the game. we still had fun though.. but if some one says no that SA won't allow it then thats fine too. as long as it didn't end up in some big huge debate and make the game less enjoyable.


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rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

Realy rigeld2? and is this not what this form is all about ppls Bias? what ever dude, i guess you run this form and web site so every thing you say is the right way and every one else is wrong. wow i'm guessing you have alot of friends that enjoy battling you? dude its a debate and my opions matter just as much as yours. so i'll keep posting what i think and feel and you can shove it dude.


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@ Rigeld2,, really dude don't know what your prob is with me, but you need to consider not ever one is an expert at 40k like you. some people are on here to learn and also give their point of view so you need to stop attacking people when you think they are wrong. lighten up man. its only a game.

Necronmike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

Realy rigeld2? and is this not what this form is all about ppls Bias? what ever dude, i guess you run this form and web site so every thing you say is the right way and every one else is wrong. wow i'm guessing you have alot of friends that enjoy battling you? dude its a debate and my opions matter just as much as yours. so i'll keep posting what i think and feel and you can shove it dude.

This forum should be about objective, non-heated rules debates. Sometimes the non-heated line gets crossed, but the objective line shouldn't.
And, actually - if you'd read the thread I've argued both sides of this rule. Not because I'm wishy washy, but because I wanted to make sure everything was looked at.
It's not an opinion that the FAQ you posted does nothing for the SA debate - it's a fact.
That FAQ doesn't mention SA anywhere. It clarifies that EL characters can stand up after all the RP tokens are removed - that's it.
It's not just the fact that being destroyed isn't the same as RFPaaC. It's that nothing can save an SAed unit without explicitly mentioning it.
Reading it any other way shows a bias that I've seen in some of your other posts as well.
I'm not trying to insult you - I'm simply pointing out that debates need to be objective and it doesn't seem like you are.

If you disagree, instead of posting how you would play it - try and debate using the rules. How you would play it rarely matters (except obviously to you and your group).


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Necronmike wrote:@ Rigeld2,, really dude don't know what your prob is with me, but you need to consider not ever one is an expert at 40k like you. some people are on here to learn and also give their point of view so you need to stop attacking people when you think they are wrong. lighten up man. its only a game.

If you took it as an attack then you read intent where there wasn't any.
I won't ever claim to be an expert, though I appreciate the compliment. I only pointed out what I see as a bias so that you (or anyone else) can get past that and objectively read the rules.
In this case, there's no differing interpretations, no different ways of reading a rule, no need to use context... this one is pretty black and white.

Rigeld2 .. incase you didn't notice i said i'd play how ever was fine it didn't mater to me, because i don't feel getting one model up is going to change the tide of the over all game so fine.. people don't want to let the EL get back up from a SA then thats great no problem. but for real.. you got to stop attacking people when you feel they are wrong. i joined this site to "learn" more and find people that enjoy the same hobby as i do and get others point of view but i will tell you this.. you are making it very hard to enjoy this site because you are right all the time and every one else don't know squat right.? well i'm sorry i'm not the expert like you man. maybe one day i will be.

Necronmike wrote:Rigeld2 .. incase you didn't notice i said i'd play how ever was fine it didn't mater to me, because i don't feel getting one model up is going to change the tide of the over all game so fine.. people don't want to let the EL get back up from a SA then thats great no problem. but for real.. you got to stop attacking people when you feel they are wrong. i joined this site to "learn" more and find people that enjoy the same hobby as i do and get others point of view but i will tell you this.. you are making it very hard to enjoy this site because you are right all the time and every one else don't know squat right.? well i'm sorry i'm not the expert like you man. maybe one day i will be.

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:the only thing i'm going to add here is a EL is not saving a unit.. its bringing a character model back from the dead. but untill this gets cleared up by another FAQ or 6th ed rule book i'll play it as the curent Necron FAQ will allow, if some one disagrees with it then thats fine too, no big deal to me either way

Did SA nuke the unit?
Did bringing a character model back re-create the unit (ie - save it)?
There's nothing in the new FAQ question you posted that would allow it. You need to leave your bias at home.

1) I never intended an attack. If you read one, you misread the intent. That's the danger of a text-based interaction.
2) I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong. You've obviously not read the placing a blast marker thread, or even a few times in this one. I also don't say that other people don't know squat.

All I did was say that it appears you have a bias. Your name, your other posts, and the 2nd one I quoted where you attempt to use the current Necron FAQ to say that EL can stand back up after SA - when it says nothing of the sort - lead me to believe that a bias towards Necrons may be clouding your judgement. That's all I pointed out. I never mentioned your grasp of the rules (good or bad), I never insulted you, I never attacked you.
All I did was address the rules at issue, and mention that it appears you're allowing your Necron bias to cloud how you are reading rules. I pointed that out in an attempt to get you to read rules objectively instead of subjectively.
If you read some other intent into that, I can't help it.

foolishmortal wrote:I am leaning strongly towards NO. EL does not specify that it brings a model back from destroyed. The whole unit is destroyed in a SA. The dead model with EL is still part of the unit (not on the table, but still part of the unit) Dying doesn't remove you from a unit, otherwise Ghost Ark's Repair Barge ability would never work.

Ghost Arks do not, technically, bring back dead models. They add entirely new necron models, with the restriction that they can't increase a unit's size to more than it started the game. I'm not necessarily sure which side of the argument I actually am on, but either way, I don't think Ghost Ark's ability is directly relevant.

rigeld2 wrote: I pointed that out in an attempt to get you to read rules objectively instead of subjectively.
If you read some other intent into that, I can't help it.

if this is what you where getting at then this is what you should of said instead of " leave your bias at home" , that comment to me was taken as you were dismissing anything i had to say about this thread. and your right Text base interaction is dangerous. i don't have a problem with looking up rules and learning how things can be taken in a different point of view. infact this site has helped me out alot with fine tuning my crons. Because I do want to play the "right" way and i don't want to "cheat" my friends while we battle. because i do more casual battling then tournaments. and its only natrual that people show favior to thier Armys. but i don't feel like i'm bias on this because i also point out that EL can come back from a SA because the EL rule says that if that model was joined to a unit, and if the EL roll was made it has to return to "That" unit and if the SA took that unit away then he can't be place back, but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

yes i agree, the comment this morning was just saying that EL "in genral" is not saving a unit.. it was bring back a dead Charcter model.. a unit of warriors don't have EL it has RP, any ways. guess i should have also stated in my comment that i'm not really talking about SA at all just the EL and RP part. thats all i was saying.


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oh yeah i said i was done in this thread lol,, its like a train wreck you can't help but keep looking.

It is bringing back a member of the unit, therefore it IS saving the unit.

Necronmike wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Necronmike wrote:but then the FAQ said that yes you Can make a EL if a unit was wiped out.. so as a person that has only been playing 40k for about 10 months.. do you see how this can be confusing? any ways i'm done with this thread so i was just trying to put my two cents in.

Yes - An EL model can come back if a unit is wiped out. They FAQed that because if you read the RP/EL interaction literally, they can't. This is because EL references RP with some differences, RP cannot come back from a wipeout, and EL doesn't override that.

This has nothing to do with SA. If all SA did was auto-kill everyone in the unit, then it would work. Unfortunately, however, SA destroys the unit (so RFPaaC tricks don't work) and specifies that nothing can save the unit unless it's explicitly stated.

Is there any rule or FAQ that explicitly says EL can come back from SA?

yes i agree, the comment this morning was just saying that EL "in genral" is not saving a unit.. it was bring back a dead Charcter model.. a unit of warriors don't have EL it has RP, any ways. guess i should have also stated in my comment that i'm not really talking about SA at all just the EL and RP part. thats all i was saying.

The Character model is part of the unit.
The unit was destroyed.
Bringing back the character model means the unit is no longer destroyed.

Yes - a unit of warriors doesn't have EL. A Cryptek joined to the unit does. Reading the rules literally, there's no way for the Cryptek to stand back up if the unit (all the warriors and the cryptek) are killed to a man by lasguns.
The FAQ clarifies the intent that the Cryptek would stand back up.
This has nothing to do with SA as the FAQ nor the EL rules say anything about sweeping advance.

Rigeld .. we get it ok

You didnt appear to, as you seem to think that a mdoel attached to the unit is part of the unit, and that by saving that model you are in fact saving the unit

If unit A is Swept, unit A CANNOT EXIST ANY LONGER. It is gone, entirely

If you try to bring back a member of unit A, then unit A would now exist again - and you have just broken a rule telling you that this is not allowed

NOS ... I get it thanks for the help though.

I think this horse is dead and can't be beaten any more it don't have a RP or EL .. hmmm must have gotten SA then.

the difference here is effect resolution...

Firstly, "cannot exist any longer" is no where in the rules, by quote or by implication. The only thing that implies this is fluff, and therefore not important.

EL is not a save or special rule that prevents SA. Therefore, it has absolutely no interaction with SA at all (go read the wording of the rule you're tossing around again).

EL is not 'saving' anything. Saving implies prevention, EL does not prevent anything.

For lack of a better anology, it's like putting an apple on the table. SA tells you to take the apple off the table and nothing can stop that, so you do it. EL is saying "okay, now place another apple EXACTLY like that old apple on the table."

The unit was already slain. SA has no further input on this. It's done and resolved. EL then comes back and says "okay, now roll for these counters" There is NOTHING in SA that states that the model may never be returned to the table (except for fluff, which as far as I know isn't considered rules).

The only rules listed in the SA wording are: 1. unit is destroyed. 2. no save or special rule can stop it unless specifically mentioned.

EL does not stop SA, SA completes from start to end with no interaction from EL at all.

Also, EL does not place a counter from sweeping advance. Yes you get to place them if you are still wiped out, but wiped out =/= destroyed (at least not in 5th edition). EL specifically has wording in its rules that say you do NOT place a counter if a character is 'destroyed' Ergo, this whole debate is moot to begin with.

The only time when this argument will actually be of any worth is when/if the rules change and destroyed is made equivalent to wiped out/removed as a casualty.

And on that note, I'm tired of repeating myself. I've given my argument, you've ignored it completely, there's nothing else I could possibly say in addition to what I have been saying for the last 3 pages. As I find myself saying at the end of more and more of these threads, have fun going in circles...

Also, for all the toting of being unbiased, you sure refuse to see anyone else's point of view

So it gives points each time that way.

Still does not make sense since you are not putting "another [unit] EXACTLY like that old [unit] on the table."

You are re-placing the same unit back into the battle - rescuing it many would say, from the fate SA dealt it.

WanderingFox wrote:Also, EL does not place a counter from sweeping advance. Yes you get to place them if you are still wiped out, but wiped out =/= destroyed (at least not in 5th edition). EL specifically has wording in its rules that say you do NOT place a counter if a character is 'destroyed' Ergo, this whole debate is moot to begin with.

Not really - since you can place an EL counter before you get sweeped (in that assault you just lost) and then nothing removes the counter.

And on that note, I'm tired of repeating myself. I've given my argument, you've ignored it completely, there's nothing else I could possibly say in addition to what I have been saying for the last 3 pages. As I find myself saying at the end of more and more of these threads, have fun going in circles...

I haven't ignored it. If you read the thread I brought up the exact same arguement. You haven't brought up anything new.

Also, for all the toting of being unbiased, you sure refuse to see anyone else's point of view

That's an amusing statement. Perhaps you should read all the posts I've made in this thread?

EL is not a save or special rule that prevents SA. Therefore, it has absolutely no interaction with SA at all (go read the wording of the rule you're tossing around again).

BRB on Sweeping Advance wrote:The destroyed unit is removed immediately.
Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special
rule can rescue the unit at this stage

It's not about preventing SA. It's about rescuing the unit.
The unit was destroyed and no special rule can rescue it.
If the unit comes back to the table, has it been rescued?

By your argument, I get a KP every time that lone EL model hits the ground... because it's not *that* unit that comes back, it's another identical one.

kirsanth wrote:So it gives points each time that way.

Still does not make sense since you are not putting "another [unit] EXACTLY like that old [unit] on the table."

You are re-placing the same unit back into the battle - rescuing it many would say, from the fate SA dealt it.

hence the preface of "for lack of a better analogy"

The issue is that SA only deals with abilities that prevent SA. To me at least, this means things that say "sweeping advance does not work against this unit" or "instead of being swept..." There is no prevention in the EL rules, SA continues completely through all of it's motions, and makes no mention of the unit being gone for good (rules wise).

If, for example, SA had the phrasing "and cannot be returned to play unless a special rule explicitly states that it ignores sweeping advance" then I would not be arguing this hypothetical point.

Anyway, as I've said before, you don't get to place an EL counter from a sweep to begin with so this whole argument is moot

side note: thanks for taking the time to actually read and make an intelligent response instead of just telling me i'm wrong


@rigeld2:
First read the above, the analogy was not perfect. Sorry

Second, that is exactly my point. If an IC dies in an assault before the unit gets swept it DOES get to make its EL roll because a counter was placed (dieing in an assault is a 'remove as casualty'). What I was getting at is that the actual act of destruction sweep does is not 'remove as casualty' and therefore no marker is placed.

In the event that an EL model dies, and then the unit gets swept, there is nothing preventing you from getting up within 3inches of the marker.

This is of course, dependent on the definition of 'rescue the unit at this stage'

In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

WanderingFox wrote: If, for example, SA had the phrasing "and cannot be returned to play unless a special rule explicitly states that it ignores sweeping advance" then I would not be arguing this hypothetical point.

It has that wording. It's been quoted many times. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

WanderingFox wrote: In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

Here you have me confused. First you agree that for a special rule to keep a unit from being destroyed by a SA, it must explicitly say so. Then you say that nowhere in the SA rule does it state that a unit cannot get up at a later time.

If the unit gets up at a later time, it has not then been destroyed. SA says when a unit gets swept "The falling bach unit is destroyed." It further says "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

The rule for SA does not have to state that a unit cannot get up at a later time. Quite the opposite. For that to happen, the unit must have a special rule that allows it to come up at a later time.

And neither RP nor EL have that rule.

WanderingFox wrote:In my opinion (for that is all any of really have here right now), that means that any ability that could potentially stop sweeping advance as it happens (ie. at this stage) must explicitly state that it does so. Nowhere in the SA rules does it state that the unit cannot get up at a later time.

I want the rule to work that way, I really do - and I don't play Necrons And I see that point of contention, I just don't feel it's valid (as I stated earlier in the thread).

The SA rule states that the unit is destroyed. The EL model is a member of the unit (even an IC at the point that SA resolves). If the unit is destroyed with no special rule being allowed to save it, you can't bring the unit back later on.

@time wizard:

You missread what I wrote. What I mean is that SA only provides context for abilities that explicitly stop SA from functioning (rescue at this stage). It does not stop something from doing it later.

Perhaps a hypothetical example.

I have a unit of models. These models have a rule that states "The turn after these models are removed from play. Return them to the battle in your movement phase using the deep strike rules."

By the way SA is worded, if that unit gets swept there is nothing stopping that unit from being destroyed. It is removed from play.

However, it's special rule (which does not satisfy the condition of 'rescue at this stage' since the models are dead) kicks in a full turn later and deep strikes the originally dead unit back onto the board.

In contrast, if this hypothetical unit's power was phrased "Instead of being destroyed, the unit may deep strike back onto the board in your next movement phase." Then sweeping advance would prevent it. Why? Because this version of the power happens 'at that stage' in other words, if it were to go off, it would prevent SA from resolving (ie. destroying the unit). Since it does not give explicit permission to deny SA, it doesn't and SA continues.

The point I've been trying to make is that EL does not function like the second one, but rather like the first. SA completes fully, and since SA has no rules that state that the unit may not come back, EL would still function (again assuming that a counter was placed, which we've established is currently impossible).

Destroyed = removed from play.
Destroyed =/= removed from play forever.

Destroyed is not equivalent to removed from play. You have absolutely no rules anywhere to back up that assertion.

I did not mean the status 'removed from play'

I meant the action of removing the model from play. Destroyed isn't actually defined ANYWHERE, which is why this argument is possible.

WanderingFox wrote:I did not mean the status 'removed from play'

I meant the action of removing the model from play. Destroyed isn't actually defined ANYWHERE, which is why this argument is possible.

Normally, the model would be destroyed, RFP, RFPaaC, etc...

SA destroys the unit. Therefore the unit cannot be in play anymore.

No where does it say that. It says to remove it from play, but does not denote that it can never return to play.

WanderingFox wrote:No where does it say that. It says to remove it from play, but does not denote that it can never return to play.

"...for them the battle is over."

which is fluff. Considering that the phrase "destroy" shows up several times in the codex and no where else does it follow with "for them the battle is over"

The only relevant rule is "remove them immediately"

So heres an idea how they come back right after the sa. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

Can they get up after sa yes.

Does it matter no

If you don't want to stand on him then so be it maybe he will fail his el.

But if you do then why are we even arguing.

time wizard wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:No where does it say that. It says to remove it from play, but does not denote that it can never return to play.

"...for them the battle is over."

Fluff.

WanderingFox -

If the unit is destroyed, what rules allow you to bring back the unit? Remember that the EL model was part of the destroyed unit.

So heres an idea how they come back right after the sa. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

Can they get up after sa yes.

Does it matter no

If you don't want to stand on him then so be it maybe he will fail his el.

But if you do then why are we even arguing.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So heres an idea how they come back right after the sa. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

Can they get up after sa yes.

Does it matter no

If you don't want to stand on him then so be it maybe he will fail his el.

But if you do then why are we even arguing.

... And you have to roll for consolidation. Good luck filling a 3" circle centered on my EL token if you roll 1" for consolidation.

IT doesn't... that's what I'm talking about... I thought i went over this... RP/EL can't place counters if the unit is removed via "destroyed" only "removed as casualty"

Like I've said, EL does not function on SA, but ONLY because SA 'destroys' and not 'removes as a casualty'

edit:
Perhaps I ought to clarify my entire point.

1. An EL model that dies in an assault that is later swept may make his RP roll because a counter was placed and is not removed.
2. An EL model that is swept may NOT make it's RP roll because sweep prevents you from placing a counter ("destroyed" vs "removed as a casualty")

In regards to SA:
In the event that EL is allowed to place counters off of "destroyed" models (as in the leaked 6th ed rules for example) then the "rescue at this stage" phrase of SA is irelevent since EL does not save the model. The model still dies, and all of SA's conditions are fulfilled. However, at the end of that phase, since a counter was placed the model may be rolled for and potentially return since no where does it stat that "destroy" = gone for the entire game.

No, it doesnt function because it doesnt say it works agfainst SA

You do realise that the conditions for WBB and RP are the same? BOTH functioned on "remove as a casualty", BOTH do not work with SA because BOTH do not say they do.

This is really, really, REALLY simple.

WanderingFox wrote:IT doesn't... that's what I'm talking about... I thought i went over this... RP/EL can't place counters if the unit is removed via "destroyed" only "removed as casualty"

Like I've said, EL does not function on SA, but ONLY because SA 'destroys' and not 'removes as a casualty'

edit:
Perhaps I ought to clarify my entire point.

1. An EL model that dies in an assault that is later swept may make his RP roll because a counter was placed and is not removed.
2. An EL model that is swept may NOT make it's RP roll because sweep prevents you from placing a counter ("destroyed" vs "removed as a casualty")

In regards to SA:
In the event that EL is allowed to place counters off of "destroyed" models (as in the leaked 6th ed rules for example) then the "rescue at this stage" phrase of SA is irelevent since EL does not save the model. The model still dies, and all of SA's conditions are fulfilled. However, at the end of that phase, since a counter was placed the model may be rolled for and potentially return since no where does it stat that "destroy" = gone for the entire game.

With regards to 1:

SA destroyed the unit and it cannot be rescued. Your assertion is that placing a model from the unit back on the board is not rescuing it?


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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it doesnt function because it doesnt say it works agfainst SA

You do realise that the conditions for WBB and RP are the same? BOTH functioned on "remove as a casualty", BOTH do not work with SA because BOTH do not say they do.

This is really, really, REALLY simple.

And you're missing his point.

WBB and RP both said you cannot come back if every model in the unit is gone. EL breaks that rule. That leaves this issue to resolve. It's new.

you omitted "at this stage"

"cannot rescue at this stage" is different than "never be rescued".

The first implies that there is a certain time frame that this restriction exists. The second implies that it may never occur.

SA uses the first version, in conjunction with phrasing that implies that it is in reference to powers/abilities that would prevent SA from resolving.

To this end, I take that to mean "until SA fully resolves, nothing can rescue this unit"

Specifically, this denies anything that prevents the models from dieing (i can't think of anything off the top of my head as an example), but it would not prevent the model returning later in the game.

edit:
Tyrizan's power may actually fit that, don't have codex on hand, but I believe it states instead of being removed it has a chance to replace a model. In this case, Tyrizan's power would not function if he got swept because he'd be effectively "dodging" the SA resolution (he never dies). Thus, (again if el worked against SA, which it does not) Tyrizan would be forced to place an el counter since at that point he would have actually been removed from play.

I suppose that's the easiest way to state my point:

SA requires all models in the unit to be removed from play in order to resolve. Anything that prevents this from occuring must explicitly state that it bypasses SA, or SA resolves anyway. EL, were it to work vs SA, would not violate the above statement since every model in the unit would, indeed, be removed from play.

WanderingFox wrote:

1. An EL model that dies in an assault that is later swept may make his RP roll because a counter was placed and is not removed.
2. An EL model that is swept may NOT make it's RP roll because sweep prevents you from placing a counter ("destroyed" vs "removed as a casualty")

And Nos, Rigeld. and Wizard are all disagreeing with you on Point 1)
No one is arguing point 2) as everyone seems to agree that you cant place a token if you are actually standing for the sweep.

For the record I am on your side regarding point 1) as SA is allowed to fully resolve and EL is in no way keeping SA from fully resolving. injecting rules that don't exist about rescuing the unit seems to be a stretch. Especially given that destroyed and "rescued/saved" are never defined in the BRB.

Icemyn wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:

1. An EL model that dies in an assault that is later swept may make his RP roll because a counter was placed and is not removed.
2. An EL model that is swept may NOT make it's RP roll because sweep prevents you from placing a counter ("destroyed" vs "removed as a casualty")

And Nos, Rigeld. and Wizard are all disagreeing with you on Point 1)
No one is arguing point 2) as everyone seems to agree that you cant place a token if you are actually standing for the sweep.

For the record I am on your side regarding point 1) as SA is allowed to fully resolve and EL is in no way keeping SA from fully resolving. injecting rules that don't exist about rescuing the unit seems to be a stretch. Especially given that destroyed and "rescued/saved" are never defined in the BRB.

And neither is the word "removed" and yet we can fall on the english language definition for that.

Bringing a unit back to the table rescues it from being destroyed, using an English language definition.

It looks like the argument has boiled down to different interpretations of two different words; "destroyed" and "rescue". Neither of those actually have in-game definitions, so we need to go with the normal English ones.

dictionary.com wrote:res·cue
   /ˈrɛskyu/ Show Spelled [res-kyoo] Show IPA verb, -cued, -cu·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to free or deliver from confinement, violence, danger, or evil.
2.
Law . to liberate or take by forcible or illegal means from lawful custody.

@WanderingFox; I don't see anything about prevention. To rescue someone from something isn't necessarily to prevent that thing from happening; if a firefighter rescues someone from a burning house, the house is still burning. If a kidnap victim is rescued by a SWAT team, they were still kidnapped. The original 'bad thing' still happened. The act of rescuing is taking the victim AWAY from whatever that bad thing is. Based on that, the way I would interpret "cannot be rescued at this stage" as "at this point (once the Initiative roll is failed) nothing can prevent the SA from occurring and nothing can negate the effect of it later".

Note; I am interpreting "at this stage" as equivalent to the common phrase "at this point", which is universally used to mean "after this point (in time)". Arguably, interpreting "at this stage" literally would not prevent an EL roll later on, since it is no longer "this stage". But. . .

dictionary.com wrote:de·stroy
   /dɪˈstrɔɪ/ Show Spelled[dih-stroi] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2.
to put an end to; extinguish.
3.
to kill; slay.
4.
to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5.
to defeat completely.

Bold added for emphasis. The word 'destroy' itself contains the idea that the destruction cannot be reversed; you cannot ever get something that has been destroyed back. You can REPLACE it, by building something else that is functionally identical, but it isn't the old thing.

That being so, the use of the word 'destroy' must mean that the unit can NEVER come back. They've been destroyed; they're gone, "beyond repair or renewal", with the only exception being if the effect is stopped before it occurs by a rule that specifically mentions it. An attached IC is a part of the unit until he leaves it (and he hasn't left it, if he was killed as part of it); that being so, returning him to play would mean that the unit once again exists, and since being destroyed means that "repair or renewal" is impossible, that would mean that it was never actually destroyed.

Well said.

So heres an idea how bout they come back at the end of the phase. After all combats have been resolved. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

Can they get up after sa yes.

Does it matter no

If you don't want to stand on him then so be it maybe he will fail his el.

But if you do then why are we even arguing.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:

1. An EL model that dies in an assault that is later swept may make his RP roll because a counter was placed and is not removed.
2. An EL model that is swept may NOT make it's RP roll because sweep prevents you from placing a counter ("destroyed" vs "removed as a casualty")

And Nos, Rigeld. and Wizard are all disagreeing with you on Point 1)
No one is arguing point 2) as everyone seems to agree that you cant place a token if you are actually standing for the sweep.

For the record I am on your side regarding point 1) as SA is allowed to fully resolve and EL is in no way keeping SA from fully resolving. injecting rules that don't exist about rescuing the unit seems to be a stretch. Especially given that destroyed and "rescued/saved" are never defined in the BRB.

And neither is the word "removed" and yet we can fall on the english language definition for that.

Bringing a unit back to the table rescues it from being destroyed, using an English language definition.

It immediately precedes it "the unit is removed immediately."


@Berzerker

That is a completely valid point, the problem is that the model that dies prior to the sweep was not "destroyed" it was "removed as a casualty. It is no long in play, so when that unit gets swept it does not contain any models that were previously killed. In the case of an EL model, this means that it can get back up since SA states nothing about removing counters (which are not models), nor does EL state that if a unit gets swept EL counters are removed. Ergo, the EL counter exists until the end of the phase where it is subsequently removed via the RP rules and a roll is made.

In terms of rescue i can agree, however "at this stage" in a phase based game, at least to me, means "this current point" and not "this current point and all points after it" but like I said a few posts ago, that is a matter of opinion.

Also, I'm in total agreement that a unit swept cannot make EL rolls. However, if the current leaked 6th ed change of destroy=wiped out=removed as casualty=removed from play does in fact come to pass, then EL would still trigger and as such would bypass the restriction just as it would in point 1 since it would then satisfy SA's condition of 'destroying' all of the models immediately.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So heres an idea how bout they come back at the end of the phase. After all combats have been resolved. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

Can they get up after sa yes.

Does it matter no

If you don't want to stand on him then so be it maybe he will fail his el.

But if you do then why are we even arguing.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The word 'destroy' itself contains the idea that the destruction cannot be reversed; you cannot ever get something that has been destroyed back. You can REPLACE it, by building something else that is functionally identical, but it isn't the old thing.

That being so, the use of the word 'destroy' must mean that the unit can NEVER come back. They've been destroyed; they're gone, "beyond repair or renewal", with the only exception being if the effect is stopped before it occurs by a rule that specifically mentions it. An attached IC is a part of the unit until he leaves it (and he hasn't left it, if he was killed as part of it); that being so, returning him to play would mean that the unit once again exists, and since being destroyed means that "repair or renewal" is impossible, that would mean that it was never actually destroyed.

No need to double-post; your argument is answered quite handily, just above your post. They can't get back up after SA.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So heres an idea how bout they come back at the end of the phase. After all combats have been resolved. But heck since I sa'd I can consoladate on your el token. Now you don't get up. Cause you would be within 1" of me. Sure you have 3" to get up. But if I sa'd you pretty sure I can cover that 3" gap.

You can only do that if your unit is large enough, and if you roll well enough on your consolidation.

Also, posting the same thing 3 times is spam, not an argument.

WanderingFox wrote:

@Berzerker

That is a completely valid point, the problem is that the model that dies prior to the sweep was not "destroyed" it was "removed as a casualty. It is no long in play, so when that unit gets swept it does not contain any models that were previously killed. In the case of an EL model, this means that it can get back up since SA states nothing about removing counters (which are not models), nor does EL state that if a unit gets swept EL counters are removed. Ergo, the EL counter exists until the end of the phase where it is subsequently removed via the RP rules and a roll is made.

In terms of rescue i can agree, however "at this stage" in a phase based game, at least to me, means "this current point" and not "this current point and all points after it" but like I said a few posts ago, that is a matter of opinion.

But it isn't the models that are destroyed, it is the unit. And the IC is a member of the unit. That being so, if he's brought back then the unit has also been brought back.

So you can keep the counter. You can even roll for it, if you like; but you can't bring the IC back, because the unit (including him) was destroyed, and you can't come back after being destroyed.

EDIT: That is, unless you're arguing that as soon as a model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer part of the unit. That is something I'd have to think about, and in general I might agree, but I believe it's made clear that RP tokens are still attached to the unit, and EL tokens are resolved "exactly like RP tokens", are they not?

reread my post... you missed an edit.

For the record, I entirely agree, and have been doing so for this entire thread. The issue is that EL has special consideration if it's getting back up into a 'destroyed' unit. Specifically it may instead get up within 3in of it's marker.

edit:
They are resolved exactly like RP counters in the sense that you roll and on a 5/6 you get up. EL has extra provissions, such that the model must get up into the combat it died in. If the combat is over then it must get up in coherency of its unit. If the unit no longer exists, it must then get up within 3" of its marker, and in all other cases the model is lost.

The underlined is one of the few differences between RP and EL. The other being that EL markers are not lost during a fallback.