Spot on.
After the Heresy, the Custodes ditched their armour, changed from red to black and stayed within the Palace/Terra AFAIK.

So yeah, Custode models would probably need to be Heresy-era...

Just Dave wrote:Spot on.
After the Heresy, the Custodes ditched their armour, changed from red to black and stayed within the Palace/Terra AFAIK.

Out of interest, what's the source for this assertion?

Several, but lexicanum should be able to provide the jist of it I think...

Alpharius wrote:I pretty sure current fluff has them never leaving earth/the Emperor's side since his installation into the Golden Throne, hence my Pre-Heresy/Heresy era guess.

Of course, they could just be cool models for cool models sake, but where's the fun in that?

Said fluff is ancient, it would scarcely be earth-shattering were Forge World to revise it. Moreover, who's to say they couldn't, for the sake of including the Custodes, write a campaign set on Terra?

The language of the fluff saying "they never leave his side" could easily be interpreted as a collective "they" referring to the organization and not the absolute "every last one of them."

I'm just saying if FW is set to do something theyll find a way to do so, even if it means rewriting fluff or interpreting it in the most favorable way. That said at this same event in which they mentioned Custodes the also emphasized NOTdoing a heresy era book. So I think if you're interpreting them that way, you've set your hopes too high.

I never liked the fluff that the best individual fighters in the galaxy have been chilling in the basement playing x-box for 10000 years. They have to get up to something sometime for crissakes lol.

Well they did do a bit during the Reign of Blood, effectively bringing it to a close and putting the Brides of the Emperor on-side and against Vandire.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well they did do a bit during the Reign of Blood, effectively bringing it to a close and putting the Brides of the Emperor on-side and against Vandire.

A Reign of Blood FW sourcebook(or series!) would be so boss.


That would also fit with their want to do a War of Faith style book for Sisters.

The War of Faith style book could always include the High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy going to war, and a Custodes accompanying him...

Platuan4th wrote:A Reign of Blood FW sourcebook(or series!) would be so boss.

I hadn't thought of that. That would be awesome.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:A Reign of Blood FW sourcebook(or series!) would be so boss.

I hadn't thought of that. That would be awesome.

Reign of blood? They could do it like they did Badab war. Plenty of cool things that could be included, the Frateris Militia, Daughters of the Emperor, Custodes, and in the late stages, Marines and Mechanicus on Earth.

Just to throw this into the mix...

If I recall from earlier in this thread, FW have said the Minotaurs will be focussed on in the near term. Their history is cloudy and they have a special tie to the High Lords of Terra. Now looking at the recent FW Minotaurs release and the Tac Dreadnought armour worn by Asterion Moloc:



It looks to me like they could have used this...



...as an inspiration for the design. Maybe the Minotaurs are a Custodes battle group used by the High Lords? (Tenuous on this basis alone, I know!)

Anyway, it wouldn't take too much to convert these chaps to look similar to Custodes terminators if you wanted them:



Just my thoughts. Have a happy Easter everyone!

MajorWesJanson wrote: Reign of blood? They could do it like they did Badab war. Plenty of cool things that could be included, the Frateris Militia, Daughters of the Emperor, Custodes, and in the late stages, Marines and Mechanicus on Earth.

Curse you, Wes. Now, when it doesn't happen, I'm going to be sooo disappointed.

There is NO way the Minotaurs are a "custodes battlegroup". That makes zero sense and there is no reason to think it.

I think of anything it'll be a special character, not unit.

Probably would be in a book with a major engagement against a tratior legion.

While I agree that there is no way the Minotaurs are a custodes battlegroup, the armor does look very similar.

ph34r wrote:There is NO way the Minotaurs are a "custodes battlegroup". That makes zero sense and there is no reason to think it.

Exactly. At worse they are loyalist World Eaters, but even that's in dispute. They are certainly not Custodes.

ph34r wrote:There is NO way the Minotaurs are a "custodes battlegroup". That makes zero sense and there is no reason to think it.

Firstly, thank you for your response and for passing comment on my suggestion, I'm all for debating and discussion. However, I would suggest that in the spirit of the forum you take some time to learn how to post polite, constructive responses to other users ideas. I have no problem with you blowing this or other ideas out if the water if you do so in a constructive way with reasoned argument, but to be so dismissive with no supporting line of evidence is simply rude. While I agree it is highly unlikely, if not impossible that they are Custodes, I thought the uncertainty of the Minotaurs history coupled with the similarities in armour design was worthy of note for some open discussion. Other users have made fair comments offering alternative suggestions which is good - it opens up debate and allows some back and forth - I just don't particularly enjoy people dictating their ideas or conceptions with no flexibility of thought.

I'm happy to be wrong so long as those with more knowledge on the subject can give feedback that expands my, and others', understanding of the area, not just give sweeping statements in a dismissive manner. I would honestly like to hear more from you about why my idea is impossible, just please do it in a more open spirit of learning in keeping with our collective interest in the 40k universe.

Cheers.

thesoupdragon wrote:Just to throw this into the mix...

If I recall from earlier in this thread, FW have said the Minotaurs will be focussed on in the near term. Their history is cloudy and they have a special tie to the High Lords of Terra. Now looking at the recent FW Minotaurs release and the Tac Dreadnought armour worn by Asterion Moloc:

It looks to me like they could have used this...

...as an inspiration for the design. Maybe the Minotaurs are a Custodes battle group used by the High Lords? (Tenuous on this basis alone, I know!)

Just my thoughts. Have a happy Easter everyone!

Nope. Custodes are made differently from Astartes. Astartes geneseed is produced en mass and Astartes are developed en mass. Custodes were individually developed and were superior to Astartes.

The Minotaurs publicly insulted Calgar and the Ultramarines---which hey, they have that going for them. Specifically, they insulted chapters that 'fawned on Calgar'. When I read that, I wondered if it was a FW writer gently ribbing Ward...

AgeOfEgos wrote:The Minotaurs publicly insulted Calgar and the Ultramarines---which hey, they have that going for them. Specifically, they insulted chapters that 'fawned on Calgar'. When I read that, I wondered if it was a FW writer gently ribbing Ward...

I thought so too, but I've been rereading the Badab War books lately...and realized that Alan thanked Ward in the opening part of the book.

Minotaurs are pretty much the space marine police force, ensuring that the chapters don't take their liberites to far.

Some things don't add up though; the High Lords are the currently highest authority in the imperium and it has been suggested that the Minotaurs do their bidding. Why however, does this have to happen in secret? The High Lords with all their might, will hardly be question by anyone if they championed one chapter to be their right hand. Simmilar to chapters close to the Eccilarchy and AdMech; and afaik noone gives a damn about them.

Because if they did that the other marines would go in a huff.

thesoupdragon wrote:Firstly, thank you for your response and for passing comment on my suggestion, I'm all for debating and discussion. However, I would suggest that in the spirit of the forum you take some time to learn how to post polite, constructive responses to other users ideas. I have no problem with you blowing this or other ideas out if the water if you do so in a constructive way with reasoned argument, but to be so dismissive with no supporting line of evidence is simply rude. While I agree it is highly unlikely, if not impossible that they are Custodes, I thought the uncertainty of the Minotaurs history coupled with the similarities in armour design was worthy of note for some open discussion. Other users have made fair comments offering alternative suggestions which is good - it opens up debate and allows some back and forth - I just don't particularly enjoy people dictating their ideas or conceptions with no flexibility of thought.

I'm happy to be wrong so long as those with more knowledge on the subject can give feedback that expands my, and others', understanding of the area, not just give sweeping statements in a dismissive manner. I would honestly like to hear more from you about why my idea is impossible, just please do it in a more open spirit of learning in keeping with our collective interest in the 40k universe.

Cheers.

Sorry if my post came off as rude, but those are the simple facts. Armor aesthetics do not bridge impossible lore gaps. Nothing against you personally, but what you say is a giant unjustified leap of faith. Perhaps it would be more conducive to argument if you provided the reasons why you consider it a possibility, armor aesthetics aside? If you have some information about that I would definitely be interested in hearing it.

ph34r wrote:

thesoupdragon wrote:Firstly, thank you for your response and for passing comment on my suggestion, I'm all for debating and discussion. However, I would suggest that in the spirit of the forum you take some time to learn how to post polite, constructive responses to other users ideas. I have no problem with you blowing this or other ideas out if the water if you do so in a constructive way with reasoned argument, but to be so dismissive with no supporting line of evidence is simply rude. While I agree it is highly unlikely, if not impossible that they are Custodes, I thought the uncertainty of the Minotaurs history coupled with the similarities in armour design was worthy of note for some open discussion. Other users have made fair comments offering alternative suggestions which is good - it opens up debate and allows some back and forth - I just don't particularly enjoy people dictating their ideas or conceptions with no flexibility of thought.

I'm happy to be wrong so long as those with more knowledge on the subject can give feedback that expands my, and others', understanding of the area, not just give sweeping statements in a dismissive manner. I would honestly like to hear more from you about why my idea is impossible, just please do it in a more open spirit of learning in keeping with our collective interest in the 40k universe.

Cheers.

Sorry if my post came off as rude, but those are the simple facts. Armor aesthetics do not bridge impossible lore gaps. Nothing against you personally, but what you say is a giant unjustified leap of faith. Perhaps it would be more conducive to argument if you provided the reasons why you consider it a possibility, armor aesthetics aside? If you have some information about that I would definitely be interested in hearing it.

First and foremost, thanks for the apology, that's very gracious of you and I do realise now that you weren't being rude. I should say sorry too really as I suppose I wasn't clear in any line of argument for my idea and by my own rationale, that does open things up for criticism so apologies to you.

In terms of my line of thinking, I was really working on the premise that the history of the Minotaurs is vague and that they have strong ties to the Lords of Terra. I fully admit that this is by no means the strongest line of argument but it was just a possibility I was thinking of after reading back through the thread and then looking on Lexicanum. You're quite right that the aesthetics do not bridge gaps, and that was really me pointing toward the discussion that FW have talked about doing some Custodes models and that their focus will be on the Minotaurs in the coming months. I'm just wondering why it would be impossible for the lore to allow them to have been created as a group to do the Lords' bidding as it were? Having said that, the stuff about them being pretty heavy handed and excelling in close quarter fighting doesn't really sound like Custodes-like behaviour.

There are a couple of passages on Lexicanum that got me thinking though:

"The organization's leader carries the title of Captain-General, and due to the importance of the Adeptus Custodes he often holds a position in the Senate of the High Lords of Terra." - The Minotaurs only really answer to the High Lords so there's a possible linkage there.

"The Custodes are renowned for carrying guardian spears, which have been carried by the Adeptus Custodes long before the Emperor's confinement. This weapon is closely associated with the Custodes, and is depicted on their banners and badges." - Again a link based on the models but Asterion carries a spear which is described thus:

"Moloc wears an ornate suit of Terminator Armor into battle. He wields The Black Spear, an ancient artefact said to have once been used by the Adeptus Custodes."

Finally, the Custodes were last active in putting down Vandire during the Age of Apostasy, M36 which is roughly coincident with the founding of the original Minotaurs.

Hope this rounds up my thinking a bit better for you!


All the best.

thesoupdragon wrote:

ph34r wrote:

thesoupdragon wrote:Firstly, thank you for your response and for passing comment on my suggestion, I'm all for debating and discussion. However, I would suggest that in the spirit of the forum you take some time to learn how to post polite, constructive responses to other users ideas. I have no problem with you blowing this or other ideas out if the water if you do so in a constructive way with reasoned argument, but to be so dismissive with no supporting line of evidence is simply rude. While I agree it is highly unlikely, if not impossible that they are Custodes, I thought the uncertainty of the Minotaurs history coupled with the similarities in armour design was worthy of note for some open discussion. Other users have made fair comments offering alternative suggestions which is good - it opens up debate and allows some back and forth - I just don't particularly enjoy people dictating their ideas or conceptions with no flexibility of thought.

I'm happy to be wrong so long as those with more knowledge on the subject can give feedback that expands my, and others', understanding of the area, not just give sweeping statements in a dismissive manner. I would honestly like to hear more from you about why my idea is impossible, just please do it in a more open spirit of learning in keeping with our collective interest in the 40k universe.

Cheers.

Sorry if my post came off as rude, but those are the simple facts. Armor aesthetics do not bridge impossible lore gaps. Nothing against you personally, but what you say is a giant unjustified leap of faith. Perhaps it would be more conducive to argument if you provided the reasons why you consider it a possibility, armor aesthetics aside? If you have some information about that I would definitely be interested in hearing it.

First and foremost, thanks for the apology, that's very gracious of you and I do realise now that you weren't being rude. I should say sorry too really as I suppose I wasn't clear in any line of argument for my idea and by my own rationale, that does open things up for criticism so apologies to you.

In terms of my line of thinking, I was really working on the premise that the history of the Minotaurs is vague and that they have strong ties to the Lords of Terra. I fully admit that this is by no means a strong line of argument but it was just a possibility I was thinking of after eading back through the thread and then looking on Lexicanum. You're quite right that the aesthetics do not bridge gaps, and that was really me pointing toward the discussion that FW have talked about doing some Custodes models and that their focus will be on the Minotaurs in the coming months. I'm just wondering why it would be impossible for the lore to allow them to have been created as a group to do the Lords' bidding as it were. Having said that, the stuff about them being pretty heavy handed and excelling in close quarter fighting doesn't really sound like Custodes like behaviour.

All the best.

There are other considerations as well, the biggest one I can think of is that the Custodes only answer to the Emperor, not the High Lords of Terra.

I think you replied while I was editing my last post but to summarise my edit:


There are a couple of passages on Lexicanum that got me thinking though:


"The organization's leader carries the title of Captain-General, and due to the importance of the Adeptus Custodes he often holds a position in the Senate of the High Lords of Terra." - The Minotaurs only really answer to the High Lords so there's a possible linkage there.


"The Custodes are renowned for carrying guardian spears, which have been carried by the Adeptus Custodes long before the Emperor's confinement. This weapon is closely associated with the Custodes, and is depicted on their banners and badges." - Again a link based on the models but Asterion carries a spear which is described thus:


"Moloc wears an ornate suit of Terminator Armor into battle. He wields The Black Spear, an ancient artefact said to have once been used by the Adeptus Custodes."


Finally, the Custodes were last active in putting down Vandire during the Age of Apostasy, M36 which is roughly coincident with the founding of the original Minotaurs.

Totally agree with you that the Custodes are only answerable to the Emperor but maybe that would be why the Minotaurs are so zealous in prosecuting their attacks on heretical Astartes? Also, if the Custodes have a member in the High Lords, maybe their goals and allegiance to the Emperor are inextricably linked?

Darkseid wrote:Minotaurs are pretty much the space marine police force, ensuring that the chapters don't take their liberites to far.

Some things don't add up though; the High Lords are the currently highest authority in the imperium and it has been suggested that the Minotaurs do their bidding. Why however, does this have to happen in secret? The High Lords with all their might, will hardly be question by anyone if they championed one chapter to be their right hand. Simmilar to chapters close to the Eccilarchy and AdMech; and afaik noone gives a damn about them.

Because the Adeptus Astartes answer to the Emperor, they do not answer to mere Lords of Terra, the High Lords may petition the Chapters, but they do not command them. If it was openly stated that the Minotaurs were backed by the High Lords to police and punish the other chapters, then the Minotaurs would be wiped out of existence by a combination of several pissed off chapters and the rest wouldn't raise a hand to prevent it.

Astartes serve the God Emperor, not the upstart and bickering council.

thesoupdragon wrote:

Finally, the Custodes were last active in putting down Vandire during the Age of Apostasy, M36 which is roughly coincident with the founding of the original Minotaurs.

In the IA: Badab War articles on Minotaurs it has been emphasized that from M36 to M38 the chapter was a different one in everything but the name compared to the Minotaurs of M41. Whatever happened to tie the Minotaurs so close to the High Lords most liely happend post M38, as previously they have not shown to be anything outside the norm, a standard savage SM chapter.

This question comes from not reading any of the black library novels, but is the emperor even still sentient?
From what fluff I have picked up from codices and rule books he seems to be a vegeable in the golden throne used to maintain the astromonican, is this correct? Is there any 40th millenium or contemporary occurences of him commanding anyone that is not using a dream or prohecy or such.
I just ask this as I see the emperor as a figure head and the high council as the real power base.

spiraleddie wrote:This question comes from not reading any of the black library novels, but is the emperor even still sentient?
From what fluff I have picked up from codices and rule books he seems to be a vegeable in the golden throne used to maintain the astromonican, is this correct? Is there any 40th millenium or contemporary occurences of him commanding anyone that is not using a dream or prohecy or such.
I just ask this as I see the emperor as a figure head and the high council as the real power base.

According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

Or he is just a rotting corpse on a throne, who knows

It doesn't really matter if he's in a vegetative state or not: no astartes chapter is *ever* going to swallow the idea of subservience to the high lords of Terra. Meangreenstompa is right: the Minotaurs would not exist much longer if the high lords tried to use them to exert such power over the many, many proudly sovereign chapters of Astartes.

Yes I get your point about the astartes not being subservient to the high lords, but as mentioned above the emporer wields his power through portents such as the tarot and psychic visions, would these "commands" all not be open to interpretation and manipulation by a skilled prophet or high lord?
Whole crusade armies from various nations (read chapters) went to war againts the infidels in the 12-15th centuries in command of the church, I woudnt call them subservient but they were all beholden to the church in the name of god.
I just make the point as i think a force of Astartes that are under command of the high lords doing the work of the emporer could be seen as an internal policing force and this is not a great leap to the custodes especially considering the slight simlarities in armour styles and weapons and also the loose canon in the 40K world.

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

Platuan4th wrote:

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

One of the most horridly written series of books I ever had the misfortune of reading. My God, it was like reading about someone's D&D game gone wrong.

Are you talking about the Ian Watson books?

Yes. The same Ian Watson who wrote the screenplay for A.I.: Artificial Intelligence. That's the movie with two beginnings, three endings, and a boring as paint drying story between them.

On this there is agreement: A.I. was quite possibly the worst movie I've ever seen.

Breotan wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

One of the most horridly written series of books I ever had the misfortune of reading. My God, it was like reading about someone's D&D game gone wrong.

To be fair those books were like the first 40k novels there ever were so they were a bit dated. At that time the Emperor actually gave orders to subordinates and would deem certain people worthy of execution.

The books are still terrible though and I'm gonna go read something intelligent,
Vladsimpaler

ThomasPolder wrote:It doesn't really matter if he's in a vegetative state or not: no astartes chapter is *ever* going to swallow the idea of subservience to the high lords of Terra. Meangreenstompa is right: the Minotaurs would not exist much longer if the high lords tried to use them to exert such power over the many, many proudly sovereign chapters of Astartes.

I take your and Meangreenstompas point and it is unusual and unlikely that a chapter would be potentially controlled by the High Lords. However, it does mention this on Lexicanum:

"Some observers have noted that the Minotaurs respond immediately and slavishly to directives issued by the High Lords of Terra themselves, and have linked this apparent unquestioning behaviour with their large amounts of high quality war materiel. However, this speculation cannot be proved."

Not only that but they have actively antagonised other chapters, including the Ultramarines:

"The Minotaurs of M41, whilst appearing more at home within the bonds of the Imperium and seemingly enjoying the patronage of the High Lords, have still managed to acquire an unsavoury reputation amongst some of their fellow Adeptus Astartes, The Ultramarines and their allied Successor Chapters in particuar have refused to fight alongside the Minotaurs as a result of both the Minotaurs almost total eradication of the Inceptors chapter in what some saw as an over-reaction, their public insulting of Marneus Calgar and the provocation given to the Genesis Chapter during the fourteenth siege of Antigonis."

To me, their near destruction of the Inceptors is possible evidence of their acting as the High Lords enforcers and their actions show that they are willing to incur the wrath of even powerful first founding chapters.

It's certainly only more circumstantial evidence I grant you, but then so is much of the evidence for origins of chapters such as the Blood Ravens for example.

What do people think?

Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

There is the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar but I don't know if that position is filled by an Astartes. Maybe someone with more info can help out?

In one of my earlier posts I noted that the Captain-General of the Custodes is one of the High Lords and that was one if the reasons I had for making a potential link between the Custodes and the Minotaurs.

ThirdUltra wrote:Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

No, the Astartes do not have a particular representative on the Council of Terra, and have not since Roboute Guilliman founded the 'modern' Council. The Astartes claim to sovereignty works both ways after all.

Now, while I have enjoyed reading this discussion, I can't help but think it's veering away from the themes discussed at the Forge World Open Day. Should we all perhaps close this line of discussion or take it elsewhere before one of the moderators gives us a telling off?

automatonsleuth wrote:

ThirdUltra wrote:Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

No, the Astartes do not have a particular representative on the Council of Terra, and have not since Roboute Guilliman founded the 'modern' Council. The Astartes claim to sovereignty works both ways after all.

Now, while I have enjoyed reading this discussion, I can't help but think it's veering away from the themes discussed at the Forge World Open Day. Should we all perhaps close this line of discussion or take it elsewhere before one of the moderators gives us a telling off?

Good points and you're right about straying off topic. I have started a thread here to continue the discussion:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/441997.page#4130644

I am disappointed by the lack of Necron stuffs (here I was thinking they might actually show something from IA12 to whet my appetite...)

skoffs wrote:I am disappointed by the lack of Necron stuffs (here I was thinking they might actually show something from IA12 to whet my appetite...)

They generally release one book a year. We just found out about the alteration of IA12 from Chaos to Necrons...so it's going to be awhile yet.