blood reaper wrote:Indeed, human nature has changed allot in the last hundred years.
Human nature hasn't changed a bit. Human culture has changed. That's one of the things that 40k writers don't grasp, other than maybe Sandy Mitchell and Dan Abnett.
blood reaper wrote:Indeed, human nature has changed allot in the last hundred years.
Human nature hasn't changed a bit. Human culture has changed. That's one of the things that 40k writers don't grasp, other than maybe Sandy Mitchell and Dan Abnett.
blood reaper wrote:Indeed, human nature has changed allot in the last hundred years.
Human nature hasn't changed a bit. Human culture has changed. That's one of the things that 40k writers don't grasp.
It kinda has...
Currently we are open to new things.
In 40k anything new and different is usually also bad.
That is to some extent culture but it has become ingrained in human nature in 40k...
No, some aspects of our society are open to new things. Others are not. Human nature, itself, has changed at all in thousands of years.
In 40K, what is "new and different" is probably an aspect of a soul-eating monstrosity from another dimension, so people (rightly) don't go for the "new and different". If today's model didn't get you pulled screaming into Hell, why would you risk the chance with tomorrow's model?
Am I wrong or don't humans present a threat to the warp. It is implied several times that the age of strife was caused by a cataclysm by people over using warp powers. That cataclysm took place in the warp meaning that a lot of its instabilities could have been caused by people. The warp entities might have been benevolent at one point but at this point the IoM is just a threat to them and they are defending themselves so they wouldn't be benevolent to people i could be entirely wrong but it seems plausible to me.
marrlfox wrote:Am I wrong or don't humans present a threat to the warp. It is implied several times that the age of strife was caused by a cataclysm by people over using warp powers. That cataclysm took place in the warp meaning that a lot of its instabilities could have been caused by people. The warp entities might have been benevolent at one point but at this point the IoM is just a threat to them and they are defending themselves so they wouldn't be benevolent to people i could be entirely wrong but it seems plausible to me.
Wrong.
Without humanity, the power of the Chaos gods would be tiny, your entire post is wrong.
Right but the IoM is a threat to chaos and they can take any sentient race not just humans, also a catastrophe on the scale to cause the age of strife i doubt only affected one side. Why would they be benevolent towards humanity when a decent portion of humanity is trying to wage basically genocide against them...
marrlfox wrote:Right but the IoM is a threat to chaos and they can take any sentient race not just humans, also a catastrophe on the scale to cause the age of strife i doubt only affected one side. Why would they be benevolent towards humanity when a decent portion of humanity is trying to wage basically genocide against them...
Please, just re-read everything, everything you've posted is wrong.
marrlfox wrote:Right but the IoM is a threat to chaos and they can take any sentient race not just humans, also a catastrophe on the scale to cause the age of strife i doubt only affected one side. Why would they be benevolent towards humanity when a decent portion of humanity is trying to wage basically genocide against them...
Are you sure you've got the right fluff? 'cuz, Humans haven't been a complete threat to everyone/everything else in the galaxy since the Great Crusade.
marrlfox wrote:Right but the IoM is a threat to chaos and they can take any sentient race not just humans, also a catastrophe on the scale to cause the age of strife i doubt only affected one side. Why would they be benevolent towards humanity when a decent portion of humanity is trying to wage basically genocide against them...
Are you sure you've got the right fluff? 'cuz, Humans haven't been a complete threat to everyone/everything else in the galaxy since the Great Crusade.
Right - and waging war with chaos worshiping human's only charges batteries of certain Chaos God
marrlfox wrote:Right but the IoM is a threat to chaos and they can take any sentient race not just humans, also a catastrophe on the scale to cause the age of strife i doubt only affected one side. Why would they be benevolent towards humanity when a decent portion of humanity is trying to wage basically genocide against them...
Are you sure you've got the right fluff? 'cuz, Humans haven't been a complete threat to everyone/everything else in the galaxy since the Great Crusade.
Right - and waging war with chaos worshiping human's only charges batteries of certain Chaos God
Indeed. A better way to fight Chaos is to 'disbelieve' it into non-existence.
Oh alright I'm still reading my way through the black library books and codex so that was just a guess based on what i've read so far but that's why i asked.
Like in life - To be ignored - hurts the most (especially Chaos Gods for obvious reasons:-) Do you think that Emp had that in mind when he preeched IT or just pointing stupidity in human religion?
marrlfox wrote:Oh alright I'm still reading my way through the black library books and codex so that was just a guess based on what i've read so far but that's why i asked.
Black library twists fluff like no other, it's not a good source.
While Lexicanum and 40K wiki are in no way complete sources, provide free information, and is vastly superior to the BL.
Tadashi wrote:Indeed. A better way to fight Chaos is to 'disbelieve' it into non-existence.
Unfortunately, that's not quite how Chaos works at all.
blood reaper wrote:Black library twists fluff like no other, it's not a good source.
While Lexicanum and 40K wiki are in no way complete sources, provide free information, and is vastly superior to the BL.
The problems with Lexicanum and 40wiki are that they incorporate the very same fluff from Black Library. At times, this may end up in contradictory articles, as wiki editors try to "merge" different sources into a single article and have to sort out contradictions, obviously ending in a lot of individual interpretation fueled by personal preferences.
The wikis are best used for a general overview and as a repository for looking up the actual sources, then preferrably make up your own mind.
DarthMarko wrote:Like in life - To be ignored - hurts the most (especially Chaos Gods for obvious reasons:-) Do you think that Emp had that in mind when he preeched IT or just pointing stupidity in human religion?
Both. The former would reduce the Powers to impotence - there are instances IRL where people who live in haunted houses/places don't get affected by paranormal events because they refuse to accept its existence even when everything and everyone around them is being tormented, the old man was trying to replicate this effect across the whole Human race - and simultaneously free the Humans from the shackles of superstition and organized religion. Even the Wolves of Fenris would agree with the Sons of Prospero on this.
It is possible, but not mentioned in canon because it's not relevant to the grimdark theme. You might want to write a few stories about it to help expand it in that case.
And the Wikia Warhammer 40,000 Wiki is a fanfiction wiki. Their lists of sources are a joke, and their articles lack any citations and take a way too liberal interpretation of canon. They take anything that is speculated or implied and pass it off as canon, when they don't blatantly insert fanfiction into the articles.
Wikia is also the Third Reich of the internet, and Montonius is a complete idiot for a variety of reasons, including defending the use of fanfiction in articles.
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:It is possible, but not mentioned in canon because it's not relevant to the grimdark theme. You might want to write a few stories about it to help expand it in that case.
And the Wikia Warhammer 40,000 Wiki is a fanfiction wiki. Their lists of sources are a joke, and their articles lack any citations and take a way too liberal interpretation of canon. They take anything that is speculated or implied and pass it off as canon, when they don't blatantly insert fanfiction into the articles.
Wikia is also the Third Reich of the internet, and Montonius is a complete idiot for a variety of reasons, including defending the use of fanfiction in articles.
Yeah, they are constantly changing fluff (even for first founding legions) and not in a good way...like they are forming their own picture and losing objectivity...
But the sadest part is that lot of forum fanboys are sticking to it like a blind man to a stick...
The Chaos Gods themselves are personifications of the anxiety that your average nerd feels towards his own emotions. They can't be good.
Hell, nurgle even has acne.
The Chaos Gods themselves are personifications of the anxiety that your average nerd feels towards his own emotions. They can't be good.
Hell, nurgle even has acne.
Isn't Chaos (not the gods, the realm) like a flowing river of raw energy (emotions) which, when pooled together, form and new entity? So what if some posivitve mojo pooled? Would it create a "good" entity? I'd like to think that (and of course its just my personal opinion) that it does but it soon gets "eaten" or overpowered by some form of the 4 big gods.
However there are some that survive through guile and cunning and every so often escape to the material word to help (and therefore increase their own powers) mortals.
Someone has to be annoying the big gods apart from the Emporer.
What about the eldar gods before Slannessh, they were in the warp as evidenced by the creation of Avatars (slaanesh fought Khaine and defeated him but couldnt kill him so sent him from the warp in pieces)
Reading the eldar codex and from memory there were quite a few other eldar gods where did these come from? could these not have been created by the eldar in the countless years before the fall?
Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, not gone through all 11 pages
MarkyMark wrote:What about the eldar gods before Slannessh, they were in the warp as evidenced by the creation of Avatars (slaanesh fought Khaine and defeated him but couldnt kill him so sent him from the warp in pieces)
Reading the eldar codex and from memory there were quite a few other eldar gods where did these come from? could these not have been created by the eldar in the countless years before the fall?
Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, not gone through all 11 pages
Yeah, Isha has been brought up and dismissed as 'not a daemon'.
She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.
Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.
Only to Eldar...she wouldn't give a damn about Humans, anymore than those pointy-eared limp-wrists do.
Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.
Only to Eldar...she wouldn't give a damn about Humans, anymore than those pointy-eared limp-wrists do.
While the plaguefather is busy at his cauldron, isha whispers to mortals, seeking to tell them the cures for the poxes she has tasted - Codex Daemons p39
To me that means that Isha does care about humans as much as any other mortal, Nurgles plagues damage the Eldar as much as the Humans, Tau, Orks etc etc.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Yeah, Isha has been brought up and dismissed as 'not a daemon'.
But perhaps they share some aspects of a Chaos God? This is an old piece of fluff
WD 127: When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him
They are warp gods, the same as the Chaos Gods as they are tied to the warp, perhaps their is a relation?
Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.
Only to Eldar...she wouldn't give a damn about Humans, anymore than those pointy-eared limp-wrists do.
While the plaguefather is busy at his cauldron, isha whispers to mortals, seeking to tell them the cures for the poxes she has tasted - Codex Daemons p39
To me that means that Isha does care about humans as much as any other mortal, Nurgles plagues damage the Eldar as much as the Humans, Tau, Orks etc etc.
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
"I had thought surprise lost to me. What a wonderful lesson to be learned from such primitives. I wonder if...the Bloody-handed God will teach you anything in your turn."
The witch Idranel's last comment is quite troubling.
Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.
Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?
Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.
Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?
If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.
1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives.
2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar.
3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.
Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.
Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?
If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.
1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives.
2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar.
3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.
Who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?
Tadashi wrote: Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different. .
Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?
If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.
1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives. 2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar. 3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession. 4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.
Who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?
A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again): 1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible). 2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy. 3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.
Mynameisalie wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Mynameisalie wrote:Granted.
The only entity benevolent to us is the old man.
The semi dead one? I'm loyal to the Chaos Gods, though... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!
You're a daemon of Tzeentch...the Blood God will laugh you out of his realm.
Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.
Thought the title was benign warp entities, guess I should read the other pages.
A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again):
1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible).
2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy.
3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.
And I repeat, who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?
Mortals help themselves with guidance, a glance of an unremembered note on a page, an unintentional mixing of concoctions, a revelation of a similarity between previous poxes. All could be regarded as Ishas whispers. Who needs to tap into divine powers for those instances?
A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again):
1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible).
2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy.
3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.
And I repeat, who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?
Mortals help themselves with guidance, a glance of an unremembered note on a page, an unintentional mixing of concoctions, a revelation of a similarity between previous poxes. All could be regarded as Ishas whispers. Who needs to tap into divine powers for those instances?
Eldar certainly do...the so-called 'Trees of Isha' from Path of the Warrior.
Maybe the negative daemon gods are suppressing the positive, because they have a greater source of power (it being the grim, dark future of course, not the happy happy googley eyes happy-ending-where-everyone-finds-a-true-love-and-the-bad-guys-go-to-jail-and-they-all-live-happily-ever-after future Disney movie)
Sandpriest1 wrote:Maybe the negative daemon gods are suppressing the positive, because they have a greater source of power (it being the grim, dark future of course, not the happy happy googley eyes happy-ending-where-everyone-finds-a-true-love-and-the-bad-guys-go-to-jail-and-they-all-live-happily-ever-after future Disney movie)
Yes, in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millineum there is only war! And that's just fine with the Chaos gods.
Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mynameisalie wrote:
On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:
I'm not done reading through the thread, and I'm sure it is said elsewhere, but 40K wiki is not a reliable source and at times is more fan-fiction than legitimate lore fact.
Additionally, I do not think a friendly/kind warp entity is very likely. I think back when the Eldar gods were made, back when the Warp was still and not chaotic there would be a chance of this. This is why the Eldar Gods aren't like the current Chaos gods, the Warp itself wasn't torn apart by humans yet. As such, it was able to make entities that had order and reason to them. At this time yes, "good" warp entities could come about as we've seen from the Eldar gods.
However, I believe those times are gone. The Warp is now a raging ocean of emotions, mostly extremely negative. Due to it's current nature and knowing what it use to be, and now what it is, I think the opportunity for this has passed and it has essentially been "ruined" by humans. Most likely because the internal drive for humans is never naturally nice or kind. It is always selfish and unthinking of others. Exactly like the chaos gods are.
Also I have to say this just because....I think you need a bit more work on the Lynx-Crystal thing. The Daemon cannot be linked to anything, the Lynx need a reason why the Imperium doesn't just wipe them out, and the whole thing screams of FURRY and doesn't fit into the realm of 40K all that well.
Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.
I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.
Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.
Tadashi wrote:I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.
Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.
These are documentaries about people who did go through the War, and more of them than just two. Additionally two relatives cannot represent the whole of the country, not by a long shot. Fighting to the bitter end is much different than "The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...". Nazi Germany fought to the bitter end, but not to every last man, woman, and child. If you state it that way than you are right. You were previously wrong, and your original statement was wrong due to prisoners at minimum.
Also no side of the war can talk about war crimes. Both were horrible when it came to that, and no side can claim to be better than the other. From the A-bombs to the Nanking Massacre.
Tadashi wrote:I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.
Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.
These are documentaries about people who did go through the War, and more of them than just two. Fighting to the bitter end is different than "The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...". Nazi Germany fought to the bitter end, but not to every last man, woman, and child. If you state it that way than you are right. You were previously wrong, and your original statement was wrong due to prisoners at minimum.
My mistake...Japan would have fought to the bitter end, though, and that is not something I'm backing down on. My grandmother was only twelve at the time, but she made it clear only because the Showa Emperor ordered a surrender and cooperated with MacArthur that things went the way they went. The Allies hadn't exactly endeared themselves, burning half of Tokyo and many other cities to ashes, and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki - necessary, she (and I) conceded, but unforgivable. But the Emperor commanded, and they obeyed. Nothing else needs to be said.
Also no side of the war can talk about war crimes. Both were horrible when it came to that, and no side can claim to bet better than the other. From the A-bombs to the Nanking Massacre.
True enough...my grandmother and many other relatives curse the Imperial Army, saying that they shamed themselves compared to the Imperial Navy (which opposed the very idea of war and only did so because it was their duty to obey) and it was they who had to bear most of the blame for the fall of our empire.
Tadashi wrote:My mistake...Japan would have fought to the bitter end, though, and that is not something I'm backing down on. My grandmother was only twelve at the time, but she made it clear only because the Showa Emperor ordered a surrender and cooperated with MacArthur that things went the way they went. The Allies hadn't exactly endeared themselves, burning half of Tokyo and many other cities to ashes, and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki - necessary, she (and I) conceded, but unforgivable. But the Emperor commanded, and they obeyed. Nothing else needs to be said.
I fully believe that. That was the culture at the time, and you are entirely right. I would give you are "large percentage" would have fought until the end, and only when it was obviously hopeless would any of them have given up. Just trying to straighten out an exaggeration which is ultimately what was attempting to be done before. And really as said before, nothing was done worse to Japan by the USA than Japan did to China. Nobody is clean of it, nobody can say they were better than others. All participated.
Tadashi wrote:
True enough...my grandmother and many other relatives curse the Imperial Army, saying that they shamed themselves compared to the Imperial Navy (which opposed the very idea of war and only did so because it was their duty to obey) and it was they who had to bear most of the blame for the fall of our empire.
According to Konoe's Feb 1945 report, the possibility of a revolution against the Emperor was serious.
Yamamoto had a better grasp of the forces involved than the army did, having actually studied at Harvard and served as the Naval Attache in Washington. However, their real shame was the attempt, even in the light of the Emperor's final decision on the matter following the nuclear attacks, to defy the Emperor's will. The Kyūjō Incident will forever be a stain on the honor of the Japanese military.
There are already Benign Warp Entities in the fluff:
* Celestine.
* The Sanguinor
These are only two examples. The Legion of the Damned are also in a sense benign warp entities bound to serve the Imperium of Man and the Will of the Emperor.
Some might argue, the Emperor also qualifies as a warp entity.
IdentifyZero wrote:There are already Benign Warp Entities in the fluff:
* Celestine.
* The Sanguinor
These are only two examples. The Legion of the Damned are also in a sense benign warp entities bound to serve the Imperium of Man and the Will of the Emperor.
Some might argue, the Emperor also qualifies as a warp entity.
They aren't benign, they go around slaughtering other beings without hesitation.
Nor is the Emperor, he's also quite guilty as well.
Benign is a relative term in 40K. I would suggest, though, that Celestine doesn't count.... she's a Living Saint, not a Warp Entity. The Sanguinor? OK, that one I will give you.
What the Sanguinor is or is not is still a mystery, but fluff seems to lean towards him being the psychic remnants of Sanguinius (Sanguinius was a very powerful psyker).
It is the Grim Darkness, their is no hope for anyone, morality isn't cared for and most current day human being couldn't stand it.
Don't try to add morals or hope to it, because you will ruin it.
I would disagree.
What you described isn't grimdark, but shitdark.
"Not the soaring, operatic darkness of the 41st millenium, but a setting so relentlessly gakky and horrible that it is impossible to care about it."
- Holden Shearer (Paraphrased), I think this quote describes the difference well.
Without something to hope for, loss and death isn't tragic, it's just an immutable fact of the universe.
The mere glimmer of hope for salvation, no matter how insignifigant, makes the ensuing, crushing loss all the more horrible. That is grimdark.
Lynata wrote: Unfortunately, that's not quite how Chaos works at all.
Indeed, it is as if people believe that a bunch of people suddenly though "Welp, I think I'm gonna start believing in some horrible and evil gods to make me suffer".
It wasn't religion which created Chaos, but conflict, the War in Heaven.
As for the topic... I'd say Daemons with positive traits are certainly possible, like a Bloodthirster valuing martial honor that only kills combatants, and is disinterested in the slaughter of the defenseless, and in some cases they are canon (Albeit, in a twisted fashion as is common with Nurgle daemons). Hell, Beasts of Nurgle per the fluff don't want to harm you, the death they cause is entirely unintentional, they just want to hug and play with you. But considering the sheer fact of what daemons are created to do, wage wars on the other Chaos Gods and mortals, them being wholly "benign" seems impossible.
Now, just straight up Warp Entities is of course possible. Look at Isha. She's a Warp Entity, and is shown to be benign, there is exactly no fluff describing her as otherwise.
*Leaves the forum for another month or two before making another post*
"Not the soaring, operatic darkness of the 41st millenium, but a setting so relentlessly gakky and horrible that it is impossible to care about it."
- Holden Shearer (Paraphrased), I think this quote describes the difference well.
Without something to hope for, loss and death isn't tragic, it's just an immutable fact of the universe.
The mere glimmer of hope for salvation, no matter how insignifigant, makes the ensuing, crushing loss all the more horrible. That is grimdark.
It's one of the reasons that people bitch and moan about BL. To make a decent novel, that characters have to have at least some hope and have to at least resemble to what people would recognize as human, so the reader can at least relate a little. If you bring up characters from BL novels as an example of something (pretty much no matter what it is) the first words out of the grimderp crowd is that 'those are exceptions!'. This recently came up in the ongoing playtest of OW, with what exactly a commisar's role should be. The debate quickly became polarized between the 'Yarrick/Gaunt/Cain/Forres' view and the 'Be more afraid of me then them' view. The problem is that the majority of people who would want to actually play a commisar are the ones who are most likely to go with the former rather then the latter.
Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.
I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.
Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.
Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow
Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow
Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.
Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.
Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow
Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.
Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.
Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow
Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.
Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.
My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.
Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow
Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.
Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.
My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.
I can tell you from my personal exp -there's nothing worse then waiting in basment untill siren goes again to signal an end of airstrike so you can go play again, meanwhile beging that bomb won't strike directly in your house (one fell near my garden - it was hole big as olimpic swiming pool ),trust me that stays for life...sorry for grandmother - but I belive Japan had big balls and moral principles until the end.....
Technically speaking, I believe that the Eldar gods are, er... were warp beings much like the four gods of Chaos, and they could be argued to be "good". But moving beyond that, it is theoretically possible for positive emotions to manifest themselves in the warp. However, given that the 40k universe is so dark, the positive emotions are greatly outweighed by the negative ones. It is even implied that the Chaos Gods are just "mostly" evil opposed to completely evil because of the small amount of positive emotion that feeds them (Nurgle and Tzeentch being the most so, with Nurgle caring about the well-being of his worshipers for reasons beyond the fact that they empower him, and the fact that Tzeentch may well decide to manipulate things to change for the better).
My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.
All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?
BTW: While I have not seen a bombing campaign (by the US) I have seen the dark side of an on-going US occupation outside the middle east quite well, thank you.
All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
And post war bombing of Germany???
Spoiler:
The Bombing of Dresden was a strategic military attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place in the final months of the Second World War. In four raids between 13 February and 15 February 1945, 1,300 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed 15 square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre and caused thousands of civilian casualties.
I know for a fact that Allies were no saints - post war killings ( just for retaliation ) is in every psihology text book
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
AS far as burning cities... yeah, Dresden comes to mind immediately. A man once told me how they hunkered down in shelters, and burning fluid came pouring in under the shelter door and how they desperately tried to smother it. They did it. Other shelters weren't as lucky. My own family predominantly Irish and Native American. We know something about being on the receiving end of genocide. (And in fighting guerrilla wars against occupying forces practicing said genocide).
I should point out, however, that Japan did have some rather staggering war crimes of it's own. Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
AS far as burning cities... yeah, Dresden comes to mind immediately. A man once told me how they hunkered down in shelters, and burning fluid came pouring in under the shelter door and how they desperately tried to smother it. They did it. Other shelters weren't as lucky. My own family predominantly Irish and Native American. We know something about being on the receiving end of genocide. (And in fighting guerrilla wars against occupying forces practicing said genocide).
I should point out, however, that Japan did have some rather staggering war crimes of it's own. Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
Yep, I've read that what they did to Chinese was Josef Mengele x 10......
All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
And post war bombing of Germany???
Spoiler:
The Bombing of Dresden was a strategic military attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place in the final months of the Second World War. In four raids between 13 February and 15 February 1945, 1,300 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed 15 square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre and caused thousands of civilian casualties.
It's feasible, but I don't think any of the "good feelings" conglomerations have attained sentience. However, the original Chaos books hinted that a huge variety of Chaotic entity was possible, so there certainly could be some benign ones.
All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?
I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...
And post war bombing of Germany???
Spoiler:
The Bombing of Dresden was a strategic military attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place in the final months of the Second World War. In four raids between 13 February and 15 February 1945, 1,300 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed 15 square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre and caused thousands of civilian casualties.
That's not post-war...
Ok it was in the final months of WW2 timeline but objective was pure retaliation and didn't had any meaning...
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.
Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.
Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.
Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.
No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.
Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.
Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.
Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.
You are scientist ?Which department my I ask?
Third year material science student, to be exact.
Ha,I knew there is some factor behind your strong affection in the IT :-)
Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.
Yes, the cities were bombed, in much the way every city in Germany was bombed (Actually the Germans were bombed far longer and more extensively), and my, Werwolf got so much support that they... did almost nothing despite a year of planning by the Nazi's before the end.
Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.
Well, one: WHO'S fething government?
Right here.
I might point out that our punishments for war criminals are 'cruel and unusual' (being burned alive over a period of several days, with parts of them being cooked and force fed to them). If you want a punishment that discourages something, hanging and gas chambers don't even come close.
Secondly... yes, and that was exactly the argument that supported the concentration camp at Dachau! Or operations at Peenemünde, a site who's war crimes are quietly brushed under the rug so Wernher von Braun could work at Nasa, despite also helping the slave overseers on site create a device to execute more slaves faster, as an incentive to get them to work harder. Yes, that's good science for you right there. [/sarcasm]
Secondly... yes, and that was exactly the argument that supported the concentration camp at Dachau! Or operations at Peenemünde, a site who's war crimes are quietly brushed under the rug so Wernher von Braun could work at Nasa, despite also helping the slave overseers on site create a device to execute more slaves faster, as an incentive to get them to work harder. Yes, that's good science for you right there. [/sarcasm]
Yes, thank you for your patronage...seeing as it was the US government who gave amnesty in exchange for the bio-weapons tech (Japan) and rocket tech (Germany). And I seem to recall a few 'abuses' conducted by the US government...
1) Tuskagee Syphilis Study (1932) - 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are denied treatment and used as Human guinea pigs and all die in the course of the study.
2) 1965 - Prisoners at Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to Dioxin and later studied for the development of cancer.
3) 1990 - more the 1500 six-month-old black and Hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an experimental vaccine with the parents never being told of the vaccine's nature.
Yes, thank you for your patronage...seeing as it was the US government who gave amnesty in exchange for the bio-weapons tech (Japan) and rocket tech (Germany). And I seem to recall a few 'abuses' conducted by the US government...
1) Tuskagee Syphilis Study (1932) - 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are denied treatment and used as Human guinea pigs and all die in the course of the study.
2) 1965 - Prisoners at Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to Dioxin and later studied for the development of cancer.
3) 1990 - more the 1500 six-month-old black and Hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an experimental vaccine with the parents never being told of the vaccine's nature.
0.5 - Small pox used in premeditated ethnic cleansings of natives in North America under the auspices of General Amherst. The US has been doing this gak since before it was the US.
Yes, and we're not the US (thank God). I'm still waiting for a mod to fix that, as it's IP based, and the VPN is in Buffalo.
Oh, sorry about that. So...which country are you really?
Seneca Nation of Indians, part of the Iroquois Confederacy. (see above flag, that big purple one)
Sadly, our only recent claim to fame was forcing the US to pay rent for Salamanca, NY. And, don't worry, we've had to put up with this gak ever since they forced duel citizenship on us.
Oh, sorry about that. So...which country are you really?
Seneca Nation of Indians, part of the Iroquois Confederacy. (see above flag, that big purple one)
Ah, I see. My apologies again...your ancestors and their fellows undoubtedly got the shortest stick out of everyone that came into contact with the USA.
Ah, I see. My apologies again...your ancestors and their fellows undoubtedly got the shortest stick out of everyone that came into contact with the USA.
Yeah, I count as a class 2 citizen (Unregistered Native) in my own country for two reasons: my mother was Irish. and 2) The USA forced some really gakky treaties on us that dictate who is and is not allowed to be a citizen of both, and to what degrees we are citizens to each one. (The idea is to get us to give up, join the US, and finish dying the feth off.) On the up side, our treaty is marginally better then most, the US recognizes the Seneca as a sovereign nation that they just happen to be occupying and have been for quite some time, as we're far more dangerous then Al Queda. Who knows when those red savages will come howling out of the forest and burn their cities to the ground, stealing away their women folk with our good looks and the fact that we practice the heathen belief that women are the ones in charge, not the other way around.
Ah, I see. My apologies again...your ancestors and their fellows undoubtedly got the shortest stick out of everyone that came into contact with the USA.
Yeah, I count as a class 2 citizen (Unregistered Native) in my own country for two reasons: my mother was Irish. and 2) The USA forced some really gakky treaties on us that dictate who is and is not allowed to be a citizen of both, and to what degrees we are citizens to each one. (The idea is to get us to give up, join the US, and finish dying the feth off.) On the up side, our treaty is marginally better then most, the US recognizes the Seneca as a sovereign nation that they just happen to be occupying and have been for quite some time, as we're far more dangerous then Al Queda. Who knows when those red savages will come howling out of the forest and burn their cities to the ground, stealing away their women folk with our good looks and the fact that we practice the heathen belief that women are the ones in charge, not the other way around.
That's harsh...technically speaking, the whole North American continent is your land...I'm pretty sure even Okinawans are treated better by the Tokyo government than what you guys have to go through.
That's harsh...technically speaking, the whole North American continent is your land...I'm pretty sure even Okinawans are treated better by the Tokyo government than what you guys have to go through.
Things have been improving. Now that we have lawyers and large amounts of money to fight back. The nice thing is that the very greed that caused them to steal our territory also drives them into our casinos by the busload. We finally ejected the New York state police and have been arresting and deporting Federal agents who illegally raid our homes. The real problem is that Salamanca is rented by the US, and therefor natives tend to get the short end in our own capital. Beatings by police are not unknown if the SMs are not present, and most natives save the very richest and most influential live in the surrounding towns and villages. To paraphrase a mob movie, there are many holes in the forest.
And, technically, we only held from what is now Western New York to what is now Sandusky, Ohio to be ours, and shared it with several other smaller groups aligned with us.
That's harsh...technically speaking, the whole North American continent is your land...I'm pretty sure even Okinawans are treated better by the Tokyo government than what you guys have to go through.
Things have been improving. Now that we have lawyers and large amounts of money to fight back. The nice thing is that the very greed that caused them to steal our territory also drives them into our casinos by the busload. We finally ejected the New York state police and have been arresting and deporting Federal agents who illegally raid our homes. The real problem is that Salamanca is rented by the US, and therefor natives tend to get the short end in our own capital. Beatings by police are not unknown if the SMs are not present, and most natives save the very richest and most influential live in the surrounding towns and villages. To paraphrase a mob movie, there are many holes in the forest.
Good for you...
And, technically, we only held from what is now Western New York to what is now Sandusky, Ohio to be ours, and shared it with several other smaller groups aligned with us.
I meant the Native American ethnic groups as a whole.
The bad part is, while the US has granted us hte right to repurchase our territory, one little bit at a time, we're not allowed to invite back the portion of the Seneca they deported to Oklahoma, or about 9/10ths of the still living Seneca. WE're still working on how to get around that so they can come home after about 200 years. (New York set up a marvelous divide and conquer plan by inviting them back without first getting around the treaties, in an effort to annul them and blame us at the same time. It didn't fly)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coolyo294 wrote: What does any of this have to do with benign Warp entities?
Ah, sorry, He wanted to know, if the little flag was wrong, what nationality I was. Which, if you've ever talked to one of us, is a good way to get a very long story, though one worth the hearing. We're still here, the though US has used plagues, guns, and even tried to drown us.
I'll let the man in black tell an interesting tale about why we're still pissed off at the US.
The bad part is, while the US has granted us hte right to repurchase our territory, one little bit at a time, we're not allowed to invite back the portion of the Seneca they deported to Oklahoma, or about 9/10ths of the still living Seneca. WE're still working on how to get around that so they can come home after about 200 years. (New York set up a marvelous divide and conquer plan by inviting them back without first getting around the treaties, in an effort to annul them and blame us at the same time. It didn't fly)
And how exactly do they justify that 'inviting' your people back home is illegal? That doesn't make sense at all.
Ah, sorry, He wanted to know, if the little flag was wrong, what nationality I was. Which, if you've ever talked to one of us, is a good way to get a very long story, though one worth the hearing. We're still here, the though US has used plagues, guns, and even tried to drown us.
And how exactly do they justify that 'inviting' your people back home is illegal? That doesn't make sense at all.
Terms of the treaty. The treaty stipulated that they had to leave. Mind you, it was written in the early 1800's, so getting Indians off the land white people wanted was the point. If the people who left returned, it would have broken the treaty and, in this case, probably cost us our sovereignty, which, I think, was New York's idea all along.
And how exactly do they justify that 'inviting' your people back home is illegal? That doesn't make sense at all.
Terms of the treaty. The treaty stipulated that they had to leave. Mind you, it was written in the early 1800's, so getting Indians off the land white people wanted was the point. If the people who left returned, it would have broken the treaty and, in this case, probably cost us our sovereignty, which, I think, was New York's idea all along.
Freedom, equality, and self-determination my ass...more like freedom to profit off of other people's misfortunes.
EDIT: Before someone spouts pro-American Empire sentiments, ask yourselves why South and Latin America and the Middle East simmer with anti-American hatred, or why China and Russia don't trust America - even allies like Japan and South Korea view America with caution.
Wait. We're back onto this international dispute again? When are you guys going to focus on what this thread is meant to be about...
Anyway, just a question for those who know what I'm talking about. Should I restart the fluff thread? I'll be more mature this time, ad I'll keep updating the OP as the fluff develops.
I might point out that our punishments for war criminals are 'cruel and unusual' (being burned alive over a period of several days, with parts of them being cooked and force fed to them). If you want a punishment that discourages something, hanging and gas chambers don't even come close.
That kind of petty vengeance makes you as savage as the people you are punishing.
Regardless of the severity of the punishment, it would not have deterred any of these men from doing what they did. Their experiments were fully sanctioned by their respective governments, so the thought of punishment never arose, and it takes a certain kind of inner conviction to be able to dehumanize your subjects to such an extent.
That kind of petty vengeance makes you as savage as the people you are punishing.
The law says the victims families determine the punishment (though it must be something of equal value, though what is equal value to 100 people's lives?). Last time we caught and tried someone for what are now crimes against humanity, that was the sentence the victims families passed. The newspapers largely left out what he did, or that he was tried first for the murdering of over 100 civilians (and the looting of their possessions afterwards, 80 horse loads), and found guilty due to what is now called command responsibility.
It seems that negative emotions are almost always more powerful than positive ones. This is why world leaders often use fear over just being a good person. (Dictators usually) it is easier to betray someone that seems soft, than someone that will have your whole family killed for looking at them the wrong way. Hate, fear, dread, sorrow are all extremely powerful things.
xXSir MontyXx wrote: It seems that negative emotions are almost always more powerful than positive ones. This is why world leaders often use fear over just being a good person. (Dictators usually) it is easier to betray someone that seems soft, than someone that will have your whole family killed for looking at them the wrong way. Hate, fear, dread, sorrow are all extremely powerful things.
Conversely, artists can influence the world without those things.
It's not so much that they're more powerful, it's that they're easy to invoke. It takes skill and ability to invoke positive emotions to instill loyalty. Any moron can scare someone. A six year old at a haunted house can do it. The real reason is that the average dictator doesn't have anything else.
I will say that some dictators do catch on and figure out how to instill loyalty in the populace without being overtly ruthless. Fidel Castro seems to be one of these rare leaders to pick up on this, though rather late in the game.
