If malevolent daemons are created and driven by negative emotion, then what about positive emotion? Love, courage, happiness etc could all form into a manifestation of purity, ie a benign daemon. The Chaos Gods, as well, are not biased Gods. The IoM just thinks they are evil, totally and utterly. Well, not actually as much as they believe. Slaanesh, the prince of pleasure. Bliss and happiness could be considered as positive emotion. Nurgle. Plague marines call him Father Nurgle as he loves his followers, and (in a rather perverted way) the Eldar God Isha. He saved her from being devoured by Slaanesh! That's got to count for something right?
The positive emotion of Loyalty in the entire of the IoM will amount to something. It's just that it hasn't revealed itself yet or is not quite conscious; it needs more of that emotion. The base line of this is that benign daemons are very likely to exist, but are hidden behind the torrent of negative emotion that is the Chaos Daemons.
Sources: Threads from other forums, 40k wiki.
Your thoughts?
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.
There already is a Chaos God of Hope. Tzeentch's raw primal emotion is hope. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.
I'm just stating what I think. And asking what you guys think. I'm not really going to get involved with this. Also, it says on the 40k wiki:
A Daemon is an intelligent and usually malevolent entity of the Warp that is a living embodiment of Chaos.
This hints that there are some non-malevolent daemons. I'm just saying. If that helps.
On the 40k wiki it doesn't say that only negative emotions translate from the material plane to the Immaterium, so you may take this in your own view.
I, personally, believe this means all emotions translate through. So, theoretically, beings made of positive emotion should exist.
It doesn't say anywhere in the 40k fluff this isn't true. So you can assume; this is why I see the 40k fluff as being so flexible. It trails off in places, allowing you to decide exactly how that path ends.
I'm not entirely sure my mind could handle seeing a Greater Daemon of Happiness. I imagine it would be covered in cupcakes and fluffy kittens.
DemetriDominov wrote:Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.
There already is a Chaos God of Hope. Tzeentch's raw primal emotion is hope. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.
Mynameisalie wrote:I'm just stating what I think. And asking what you guys think. I'm not really going to get involved with this. Also, it says on the 40k wiki:
A Daemon is an intelligent and usually malevolent entity of the Warp that is a living embodiment of Chaos.
This hints that there are some non-malevolent daemons. I'm just saying. If that helps.
Clapping your hands on your ears and going "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is not a good argument tactic, dude. You asked for opinions, and now you got em. Just because they don't match what you want shouldn't mean you pitch a fit.
That said, the issue I have is there, frankly, when you compare how much negative emotion is going on in the 40k universe, the amount of positive is so small that you aren't gonna be getting any amount of 'good ' deaemons, apart from the aforementioned Sanguinor and perhaps living saints. There's no Greater Demons of Decent First Dates or anything like that simply because there's a hell of a lot more rage/war, excess, ambition and decay going on.
Also, Loyalty can easily be made into a negative emotion. Hell, there's an example in the 40k universe itself, the Imperium. Blind, unquestioning loyalty has completely hamstrung the Imperium.
No, I meant it's just for other people to discuss it as well. All I was saying is that benign daemons, whilst unlikely, could still be possible. I'm not saying "Yes there are daemons that are nice" I'm saying "There could be daemons in the Warp that are nice. You guys discuss that while I go have coffee." I'm actually noting all this down. On paper. For future reference. So I am listening, just trying to distance myself. That way a lot of things will stay nice. I've got involved in quite a few things on these forums, and they often don't turn out well...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fervor wrote:I'm not entirely sure my mind could handle seeing a Greater Daemon of Happiness. I imagine it would be covered in cupcakes and fluffy kittens.
DemetriDominov wrote:Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
This sounds plausible to me.
Really? I thought it might just take an embodiment of a pleasing form, not something that terrifies the gak out of someone when they look at it. Like an angel, I guess. Like the sanguinor. Not implying anything here.
Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels. 'Lawful', of course, doesn't mean the same as 'good'...
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Love then becomes, jelousy, then hatred,
I see where you're going with that, but may I just point out, Nurgle embodies love (in a weird, perverted way), as he fathers over those who dedicate themselves to him. So, love is actually positive in this case. I really think it depends to what end you wish or want the emotion to eventually become. If it's love, if you continually love someone, and don't let anything corrupt that love, then that would be a positive emotion. But anyway, carry on guys, love the way this is going! *Slurps coffee*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels. 'Lawful', of course, doesn't mean the same as 'good'...
Well, ones that don't want to obliterate anything and everything they see. And (quite unlikely) maybe even want to support particular beings they like in a good way. Like endowing them with chaotic gifts, but not actually forcing them to turn to chaos. Like: "Here you go, you can be a psyker now, cause I lieks you " or "You really deserve something special... I know! You can have better strength and speed!" Damn, I really shouldn't have made that second post...
Depends on what you'd see as "good", but in the context of 40k I'm guessing this means "Imperial daemons". So I've voted for "depends on the circumstances".
Emotions and thoughts can birth daemons. I kind of regard the Warp like that purple slime from Ghostbusters II, if anyone remembers. But since the setting is dominated by negative emotions such as hatred and bloodlust, the most common daemons are unsurprisingly evil ones, those leaning towards the side of Chaos. Yet there may be times when mass congregations of people end up in an emotional turmoil of feelings like hope and faith that this would result in the appearance of a different kind of daemon - a Living Saint. At least that's my theory.
In fact ...
English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels.
Lynata wrote:Depends on what you'd see as "good", but in the context of 40k I'm guessing this means "Imperial daemons". So I've voted for "depends on the circumstances".
Emotions and thoughts can birth daemons. I kind of regard the Warp like that purple slime from Ghostbusters II, if anyone remembers. But since the setting is dominated by negative emotions such as hatred and bloodlust, the most common daemons are unsurprisingly evil ones, those leaning towards the side of Chaos. Yet there may be times when mass congregations of people end up in an emotional turmoil of feelings like hope and faith that this would result in the appearance of a different kind of daemon - a Living Saint. At least that's my theory.
In fact ...
English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels.
So kinda like this?
So, you mean like, a daemon manifesting itself as a physical being? I don't really mean leaning to wards the Imperium's favour, it could be any race! Depends on who the Angel/Daemon favours. I just looked at that picture again and my eyes fell out of my head. That's actually quite beautiful. That is definitely how I pictured them.
Yes, unfortunantly the 4 Chaos gods also embody good emotions as well as bad. But because the universe has so much bad stuff the Chaos Gods are mostly bad.
Khorne represents martial pride and honor as much as senseless violence.
Slannesh represents the desire for perfection in all things.
Nurgle represents caring and paternal love.
Tzeentch represents knowledge and the desire for truth.
Of the 4, only Tzeentch has decently good undertones that are strong enough to appear.
So is that depends on the Chaos God?
And how is it unfortunate? It proves that there is at least a shred of goodness in nearly all things (malevolent daemons excluded). I know that isn't GRIMDARK, but it's the pure truth. And Tzeentch also demonstrates Hope, I believe.
Mynameisalie wrote:So, you mean like, a daemon manifesting itself as a physical being?
Yup - although in the case of the Living Saint it would be a daemon possessing one of the living!
Here's a more detailed explanation I wrote for another thread:
The emotions of a large mass of people, all united in both terror and faith, praying to the Emperor for deliverance - this immense outburst, this vortex of hope, despair and hate would grow until it is strong enough to be given form within the twisting nethers of the warp, especially in crisis zones where the veil has already been weakened. This newborn entity, driven by the need to protect and avenge, would descend upon the battlefield, a shapeless existence summoned to the focal point of this wreathing mass of pained human bodies, where it would seek out and possess one of the most faithful, someone most suited to act as a conduit to draw this thought-being into realspace. Upon that moment, this individual will be filled by holy hatred and a purpose magnified by the local masses, tapping an invisible connection to the warp to exert their newfound power.
Yet even as this avenging angel begins her terrible harvest upon the enemies of Mankind, the despair and terror of the masses slowly give way to satisfaction, then indifference. Finally, separated from its home plane and sapped of power, the Living Saint will slowly burn out until, leaving the host body a wrecked shell unable to persist on its own.
Mynameisalie wrote:I don't really mean leaning to wards the Imperium's favour, it could be any race!
I'd think any race that has a connection to the warp can "summon" daemons - good or bad. The prevailing culture would determine the more likely outcome, of course. Didn't somebody have a theory about how Eldar Avatars are daemons, too?
Mynameisalie wrote:I just looked at that picture again and my eyes fell out of my head. That's actually quite beautiful. That is definitely how I pictured them.
"Celestine rose from the tomb, borne aloft on a column of divine radiance and attended by cherubs and doves. She was now clad in a suit of shining golden armour, wielding a blade wreathed in sweet-scented petals, its blade so bright none could bear look upon it. She gazed around, and all who dared meet her eyes were struck down by equal parts heavenly adoration and infernal terror."
daemons don't make people in to psykers -- though, if any of them could, they would probably be servants of Tzeentch. in the CSM codex, you'll notice that marks of chaos, which are a kind of 'support' offered by daemonkind, only give psychic powers to units that were already psykers in the first place.
and think about this for a moment: if daemons could churn out psykers, wouldn't they be doing it ALL THE TIME? like, they wouldn't even have to manifest in the Materium, they could flit by in the Warp and go "and YOU get psychic powers! and YOU get psychic powers!" and cause invasions on demand when the plebs brains explode under the weight of power that they weren't meant to have.
otherwise they are chaotic gifts that affect them positively and negatively in some way. the Rubric of Ahriman is a good example of an attempt to circumvent this, and it worked, at the cost of every non-psyker in the Thousand Sons.
All the Avatars are pieces of the Eldar god Khaine. They are Daemons for rules purposes. Fluffwise, they are pieces of one of the last surviving Eldar Gods.
daemons don't make people in to psykers -- though, if any of them could, they would probably be servants of Tzeentch. in the CSM codex, you'll notice that marks of chaos, which are a kind of 'support' offered by daemonkind, only give psychic powers to units that were already psykers in the first place.
and think about this for a moment: if daemons could churn out psykers, wouldn't they be doing it ALL THE TIME? like, they wouldn't even have to manifest in the Materium, they could flit by in the Warp and go "and YOU get psychic powers! and YOU get psychic powers!" and cause invasions on demand when the plebs brains explode under the weight of power that they weren't meant to have.
otherwise they are chaotic gifts that affect them positively and negatively in some way. the Rubric of Ahriman is a good example of an attempt to circumvent this, and it worked, at the cost of every non-psyker in the Thousand Sons.
Yep. Being turned into dust, mind warped into a brainless automaton and stuck inside your armour for all eternity seems quite negative. On the other hand, being made into awesomepsykers is quite good.
*Finishes off coffee*
BRING ME ANOTHER!
Good is a point a view. To the terrified heathen tribe being massacred by the Imperial Guard the daemonettes they summon would be good, or at least less bad. So yes good daemons exist.
good as in:
"deigns to help an individual(s) achieve a positive goal"
That's what I'm going for.
In a way.
But yeah, that's pretty much banging the nail on the head.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just had another thought. If a daemon appeared to a populace in an hour of great need, wishing to help them selflessly and without reward, but then became worshipped, wouldn't it then become a God in it's own right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Example of a benign Daemon:
Daemon of Hope, therefore its origin is Tzeentch. Can exercise psychic powers, but only uses them if they will benefit a chosen individual or a chosen populace (Greater daemon, very rare).
Just a thought...
Grey Templar wrote:All the Avatars are pieces of the Eldar god Khaine. They are Daemons for rules purposes. Fluffwise, they are pieces of one of the last surviving Eldar Gods.
Said gods being gods like the Chaos Gods?
Actually, "Khaine" is suspiciously close to "Khorne", phonetically speaking. And look what effect the Avatars supposedly have on nearby Eldar when they appear.
I would not be surprised if there is a direct connection between Khaine and Khorne - essentially being two sides of the same coin, or possibly Khorne having evolved out of Khaine. If emotions are capable of creating gods, perhaps they are also capable of influencing them, which would see Khaine being corrupted into Khorne.
Such duality is a popular concept in various settings; in the German P&P RPG "The Dark Eye", there are rumours that the so-called arch-daemons are basically "mirrors" of the gods of the lawful pantheon, or that they are even one and the same. Of course, the affiliated churches condemn such theories as heresy most vile.
Please, you above all others should know that Khaine(in 40k at least) is not related to Khorne.
He's been around far longer then the Chaos Gods have.
In Fantesy its a different story. Khaine is hinted at being mearly a facet of Khorne. Hence why the HEs don't openly worship Khaine. He is mearly aknowledged.
Grey Templar wrote:He's been around far longer then the Chaos Gods have.
Hence my theory that Khaine could have evolved into Khorne, since the thoughs and emotions of the people have a direct influence on the warp, thusly "tainting" it. And as new races popped up all over the galaxy, all with their own violent cultures ...
Actually, how long has Khorne been around? I only know of Slaanesh being "fairly new".
It seems odd then that Khaine would have fought against Slannesh, lost, and then get broken into lots of pieces. Seems that Khorne would be strangely absent from the pantheon.
I think, of all the chaos Gods, only Tzeentch really has the potential to create a benign or pure daemon. Simply because humanity at this time is hanging on secretly to hope, which is Tzeentch's raw emotion. Change, ambition, secrecy are all really secondary elements. But hope in itself, if given enough force, could create a Living Saint, Sanguinor copy or just a Daemon of Hope fro another race. How long it lasts, of course... That's what I'm literally clinging on to. That this is possible. Plz let it be true...
Chaos Gods don't create "good daemons". They create daemons associated with the range of influences that the given god controls. Though such daemons may appear to be good, or pure, or innocent, or whatever, this is a ruse. One does not treat with the Ruinous Powers without suffering corruption, eventually being either destroyed utterly or counted amongst the lost and the damned, a slave to Darkness.
This is not, however, how all Warp Entities are created. Sometimes, enough warp-stuff coalesces around an emotion or concept and, through the vagaries of the Warp, gains sentience. These are daemons who are unaligned with any Chaos Power and may, in their own way, be quite powerful. Their goals and desires, though, can be quite mysterious, but are often predatory.
It is this latter example that will be the most likely cause of a "good daemon", though given the sheer chaos of the Warp, and the overwhelming amount of negative emotions it contains, such creatures are likely to be quite weak, comparatively, and probably preyed upon by other intelligences in the Warp.
The Living Saint, it should be noted, is thoroughly tested by both the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, and is found to be not a daemon or, truly, of the Warp at all. The investiture of a Living Saint is truly a miraculous event.
So, not as much of a Benign Daemon, more a Benign Warp Entity? That makes sense. But it does say on the 40k wiki that they are usually malevolent. This does imply some genuinely want to help. Or the God wants to, anyway. Or the God may be benign in its own right, but has been overshadowed by the 4 ruinous powers? A daemon would be classed as malevolent even if they seemed innocent and disarming, but in fact wanted to tempt the individual it is preying on to chaos. That's malevolent. A being who just wants to help? No, that's benign. And the wiki doesn't say all daemons are evil, ranting horrors that want to kill all the gak within 500 light years from where they emerge into realspace. So that is a trailing off end GW has seemingly failed to fill. I see a gap opening for creative fluff writers here...
Actually, benign *is* good, at least in comparison to the typical daemon.
There are plenty of tales of "benign" warp-entities, whether these are "ghosts" or "phantasms" of fallen warriors, lost void-farers, psykers, saints (not Living), and other such types, though they are an extremely rare occurrence (though how often will even the average Space Marine find himself on a haunted space-ship, haunted planet, haunted anything-at-all-really? Not very often.)
Lynata wrote:Depends on what you'd see as "good", but in the context of 40k I'm guessing this means "Imperial daemons". So I've voted for "depends on the circumstances".
Emotions and thoughts can birth daemons. I kind of regard the Warp like that purple slime from Ghostbusters II, if anyone remembers. But since the setting is dominated by negative emotions such as hatred and bloodlust, the most common daemons are unsurprisingly evil ones, those leaning towards the side of Chaos. Yet there may be times when mass congregations of people end up in an emotional turmoil of feelings like hope and faith that this would result in the appearance of a different kind of daemon - a Living Saint. At least that's my theory.
In fact ...
English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels.
So kinda like this?
Regrettably, they looked like this; a similar idea, but crummily executed.
But yes, that's how I'd be inclined to explain living saints and The Sanguinor.
... those wings made it a *complete* PITA to mount it to a base that was not the size of a silver half-dollar (and similarly weighted) to keep it from falling over backwards.
There was another in the series, with a downward-pointing sword, that I had to trim the tip off of, because the sword extended beyond the bottom of the base /headdesk
Id say no Daemon is ever "good" or "bad". They contain a good amount of both sides, however due to 40k being such a negative place on the whole, most of the emotions forming the daemon will be negative and therefore interpreted as bad. It is impossible to get an entirely "good" or "bad" daemon, eg a nurgle plaugebearer is spreading love and compassion to its knowledge but is unable to see that its "gifts" are causing great suffering. A living saint could embody just as much hatred and bloodlust as a bloodthirster.
Id like tio think that if there where deamons apart from the chaos ones we know of they would be like light daemons or such.
Makes me think of Raymond E Fiests books where there are different planes above and below the normal universe, the very bottom of the planes belong to dark daemons and the very high planes belong to light daemons, if one of each of these daemons fight they essentially cancel each other out.
Being dark or light doesnt neccessarily mean they are good or evil however.
I think for thr 40k universe the closest thing you would get to good daemons would be saints.
Grey Templar wrote:It seems odd then that Khaine would have fought against Slannesh, lost, and then get broken into lots of pieces. Seems that Khorne would be strangely absent from the pantheon.
Or maybe Khorne is one such piece. Or maybe the "breaking" should not be taken literal but rather in a figurative meaning.
There's a lot of ways to make it work. Of course there's nothing I can provide as "proof", I'm just pointing out some very suspicious similarities concerning these gods' name as well as their domains. Apparently, Khaine used to be revered as the god of "murder, violence, destruction and war", whereas Khorne is revered as the god of "hate, violence, rage and bloodshed". So ... duh.
Psienesis wrote:Chaos Gods don't create "good daemons". They create daemons associated with the range of influences that the given god controls.
Do Chaos Gods really create daemons of their own? I was under the impression that daemons basically just "pop" into existence (thanks to people's thoughts summoning them from the raw energy of the warp) and are then claimed by (or forced into servitude of) some greater daemon, basically creating a hierarchy built upon the principle of "might makes right". Perhaps I just got this from some other setting, though... I honestly cannot remember where I may have read this now.
Also, those are some pretty cool "Daemons of Law" there, even though the minis obviously suffer a little in terms of quality. Still, you could totally use those for Living Saints other than Celestine.
Do Chaos Gods really create daemons of their own? I was under the impression that daemons basically just "pop" into existence (thanks to people's thoughts summoning them from the raw energy of the warp) and are then claimed by (or forced into servitude of) some greater daemon, basically creating a hierarchy built upon the principle of "might makes right". Perhaps I just got this from some other setting, though... I honestly cannot remember where I may have read this now.
Going all the way back to SoD and tL&tD, Greater Daemons are a microscopic piece of their patron god's essence broken off and shaped into whatever form the god finds pleasing, and given self-sentience. The god can, at its whim, re-absorb this bit of itself and that Greater Daemon will simply cease to be. This is why Greater Daemons don't "go rogue" from the Ruinous Powers. Others, those who are bound to Chaos Undivided or otherwise "unaligned" usually start out as lesser daemons, or simply Warp Entities, and then gain power either through machinations within the Warp or attracting/gaining the worship of mortal creatures somehow.
Lesser Daemons are formed from the raw stuff of Chaos, colored, if you will, by the energies of the Chaos God doing the shaping, in accordance with the plan for that "model" of daemon, as well as the god's usual portfolio.
As much a deal that people like to make about Nurgle's "niceness", I don't really buy it. I think it's simply a literary dichotomy, that he is the Father of Plagues and Disease, and truly hideous to behold, and yet maintains a cheery disposition. Nurgle, himself, doesn't really care, nor do the Great Unclean Ones, as evidenced by their casual destruction of scores of Nurglings as the whim strikes them, and the death of millions with plague and disease. After all, one of Nurgle's base emotional resonances is despair, and the determination (one might even say nihilism) that comes from abject despair.
Psienesis wrote:Going all the way back to SoD and tL&tD, Greater Daemons are a microscopic piece of their patron god's essence broken off and shaped into whatever form the god finds pleasing, and given self-sentience. The god can, at its whim, re-absorb this bit of itself and that Greater Daemon will simply cease to be. This is why Greater Daemons don't "go rogue" from the Ruinous Powers. Others, those who are bound to Chaos Undivided or otherwise "unaligned" usually start out as lesser daemons, or simply Warp Entities, and then gain power either through machinations within the Warp or attracting/gaining the worship of mortal creatures somehow.
This is really the only image I could find of it. I honestly lack the knowledge to tell you what that is but I know it could fight a bloodthirster in the dawn of war games...if it's a "daemon" it's gotta be a positive one...came from the sisters of battle btw
No, because the concept of Daemons are based on the Western-Christian centric idea of demons from hell. The type that were formulated to make sure peasants behaved themselves and paid their taxes on time in days of yore.
Had the 40k universe followed a more Eastern-influenced idea of a non-corporeal realm, then while that afterlife does indeed have its fair share or fire-breathing, animal-headed nasty demons, they also have their fair share of more benign entities as well. In fact, their characters are variously described as being as varied as those of humans themselves.
I've always thought it was kind of a shame that GW went for the more Western-Centric route when describing daemons, not least because it is contradictory and paradoxical, but also because it is rather boring. It's also compounded by the fact that originally 'chaos' didn't even mean 'evil' per-se, but rather an infinite array of possibility. The straight line of the Imperium, representing control, oppression and certainty, and the 8-pointed star (originally concocted by Michael Moorcock, Alistair Crowley and possibly ancient Egyptian mysticists) was meant to show the potential for complete freedom and uncertainty.
So.. the answer is 'no', considering the strict limitations the 40k background writers have loaded onto the concept.
Pacific wrote:No, because the concept of Daemons are based on the Western-Christian centric idea of demons from hell. The type that were formulated to make sure peasants behaved themselves and paid their taxes on time in days of yore.
40k's daemons are very, VERY far removed from any form of traditional Judeo-Christian mythological demons. They aren't evil, so much as they simply ARE.
Papa Nurgle's daemons, for ecxample are actually rather pleasant and happy-- if it weren't for the hideous diseases they spread, they could even be good company to keep. They could even be classified as inherently good creatures, but misguided and mentally deranged. They only want to help you, and they think that spreading disease is a gift, not hurting their victims.
Plaguebearers aren't particularly good, or pleasant, they just stand there, counting in a low, dull monotone, which tallies up the number of people killed by Nurgle's diseases.
Though, correct, the daemons of 40K are not really based on anything Judaeo-Christian, which is why the word "daemon" is used. By using this term, it remains open to interpretation, as a "Daemon" is any kind of extra-planar being (demons are daemons. Angels are daemons, too, but not demons).
Mynameisalie wrote:
I just had another thought. If a daemon appeared to a populace in an hour of great need, wishing to help them selflessly and without reward, but then became worshipped, wouldn't it then become a God in it's own right.
No this implies their is actually some kind of goody greater daemon running around helping people because it makes him feel "happy" or whatever. Also specific daemons have been known to rule worlds or receive individual praise, though it doesn't make them gods just maybe more powerful.
EVEN if a good daemon was created in the warp Chaos daemons would just kill it straight out. Chaos daemons are battling each other all the time. If their really were good deamons they would be so under powered they wouldn't be able to survive in the warp, thus leading to the argument that their really is not enough positive emotion in the beginning to even manifest an actual daemon.
There's plenty of fluff sources that indicate that beneficial Warp Entities do exist, and continue to exist for long periods of time, without being eaten by Daemons. The Warp is a violent place, to be sure, but daemons don't cover every non-Euclidean inch of it.
Daemons do gain power from the worship of mortals. Given enough mortals, it would be possible for a Daemon to become a (very minor) Chaos God in this way. However, these people are likely to attract the attention of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, and be tortured and interrogated before being burned alive at the stake for being Heretics and Daemon-worshipers. The Daemon, if it is lucky, will be destroyed outright by the Grey Knights or other Ordo Malleus forces. If it is not so lucky, it may find itself bound by Inquisitors or members of the Ecclesiarchy, and then sealed away in a void-safe for all time.
I'm just going to quote from the 40k wiki, and see if this helps: A Daemon is an intelligent and usually malevolent entity of the Warp that is a living embodiment of Chaos. Daemons are collectively the greatest servants of the Chaos Gods and of Chaos itself as a universal force. They are created at the whim of one of the four major Chaos Gods from a fraction of the God's own power within the Immaterium and act as an extension of its will. A daemon's appearance and intrinsic character reflect the God's own nature. These daemons may be reabsorbed into the God's own psychic signature in the Warp at its whim. Chaos... That's not necessarily evil. It's more like "it can pull one way or the other". Daemons don't have to always be evil, but they will most likely contain undesirable traits. This can lead back to the possibility of a benign daemon forming, but having traits such as jealousy, or bloodlust. So yes, benign daemons are capable of forming, but they aren't always made of 100% positive emotion. The ones that are benign will be made of a higher percentage of positive emotions/traits, which causes the daemon to become more of a "good" one. That's how I see it anyway.
Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!
Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons', isn't that kinda grounds for the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights to be sent in?
Living Saints having anything to do with the warp at all - and even more them being daemons - is just one theory of many. It's the one I'm holding to, but I feel this should be pointed out. Much like with most of 40k fluff from GW, there are precious few "hard facts" on this subject.
As to the question - I'm sure the Ordo Malleus would be rather interested in this, but of course they'd have to be suspicious at first. The concept of a "good" daemon is so very alien to the Imperium as a whole, I'd reckon the thought simply would not even come up. Also, the Living Saints appear not as "foreign" creatures, but actual people. Possessing (if you'd follow the same theory as I do) the bodies of actual humans known to be examplars of loyalty and faith. Plus, every "candidate" for the title of Living Saint is put through an intensive conclave of Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition officials whose task it is to determine if the individual put forth is truly a Saint, or whether it is an attempt by the Great Enemy to subvert the Imperial faith. So the Inquisition already is involved ... but since we are talking about an Imperial citizen here, thus making it an internal matter rather than having to do with the enemies from beyond the veil, the Inquisitors involved come from the Ordo Hereticus, not the Ordo Malleus. This could also explain a lack of expertise for identifying a Living Saint's true nature, if you will, for I am certain that Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors would look for different signs and employ different methods than Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus when interviewing a subject.
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
Whilst the Chaos Gods themselves may resort solely to attacking those who attack them, the same cannot be said of their subjects. In the pursuit of earning their God's favour and living by whatever twisted dogma the various Gods' servants propagate, they slaughter and sacrifice countless innocent lives every day using methods most vile. Even the Imperium's oppression pales to the atrocities committed by Chaos cults and warbands.
Khorne does not care where the blood comes from as long as it flows, Slaanesh does not care if all participants subjected to an orgy actually gain any pleasure of it as long as some do, etc ...
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!
Haha so they are exactly like the imperium because if imperial citizens go against the emperor then they are burned and slaughtered for being a heritic so i think of it as
Emperor= chaos god
Imperium= his daemons
And if you go against him the inquisition burns you alive because all humans must live and worship the emporer or die!
Automatically Appended Next Post: what about what the grey knights have done they kill inocents just to keep themselves more secretitive!
Well we know the Eldar goods are quite real. And since Nurgal is the good of Life and nothing more and nothing less I would say that all of his stuff are good. The issues are that just touching one will kill you. They dont mean anything by it. It just happens. Not our fault there is a whole lot more viral and bacterial life then humans. But as for good in the normal sense. No. Any emotion taken to the extreme is bad. And as for the whole saints and such are deamons Im not sure about that. Not in the normal scene for the setting Im betting since the Empra is likely the primary fuel source for those rather then the straight up warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the grey knights kill people to keep warp hole from spreading. Anyone who is at a place they show up to and isnt a marine has a fair chance of being possessed and not even knowing about it yet. And given the size of planets fair could mean 1 in a billion and that would still be a problem.
Yep. Exactly. Except the Emperor didn't want people to worship him in the first place. Unfortunately, the cult that revered him as a god have now become the High Lords Of Terra. Odd how things work out, isn't it? Chaos Gods are more assertive in the way they operate. They try to bring people over to their side not by brute force, but by whispers and promises of fame, fortune, the ability to escape from death... See how that goes? Khorne less so. If there was a sudden huge influx of positive emotion, the Chaos Gods would feed off that and consequently may become more benign in the ways they get their followers to worship them. This is how I view the Chaos Gods currently: <Pure Evil>----K-----------------------S----------------------------------------------------------------N--T<Unbiased>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<Pure Good> No I don't favourite Nurgle and Tzeentch but this is honestly where I'd put them on the morality scale.
Draigo's not a daemon though, is he? I thought he got sucked into the Warp by accident... And yes that would be hilariously ironic. The God controlling Draigo (assuming he is a Daemon Lord) must be laughing his off.
Yeah it completely base off nothing ijust think it be funny cuz
we could assume that maybe hes a daemon lord of khorne
and goinh around inside the warp murduring everything that moves
just feeds khorne power and the rest of the grey knights
just misinterpret it as him helping them!
Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...
Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...
If Draigo is a daemon, then that is the best troll in the history of the 40k universe!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote:Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...
Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...
That's his daemon, not Tzeentch himself. What the daemons do is up to then. Tzeentch just sits there and makes long, intricate plots which he finds extremely humorous...
It's just where I'd put them, and I based them on emotion. That should have been a scale of emotion, really...
Kovnik Obama wrote:Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...
Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...
Because kids play this game and he/she is the god of sex? i dunno i think all the chaos gods are good yet evil and same as every other faction good to there own followers blow up anything else that moves..
Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons', isn't that kinda grounds for the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights to be sent in?
Living Saints having anything to do with the warp at all - and even more them being daemons - is just one theory of many. It's the one I'm holding to, but I feel this should be pointed out. Much like with most of 40k fluff from GW, there are precious few "hard facts" on this subject.
As to the question - I'm sure the Ordo Malleus would be rather interested in this, but of course they'd have to be suspicious at first. The concept of a "good" daemon is so very alien to the Imperium as a whole, I'd reckon the thought simply would not even come up. Also, the Living Saints appear not as "foreign" creatures, but actual people. Possessing (if you'd follow the same theory as I do) the bodies of actual humans known to be examplars of loyalty and faith. Plus, every "candidate" for the title of Living Saint is put through an intensive conclave of Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition officials whose task it is to determine if the individual put forth is truly a Saint, or whether it is an attempt by the Great Enemy to subvert the Imperial faith. So the Inquisition already is involved ... but since we are talking about an Imperial citizen here, thus making it an internal matter rather than having to do with the enemies from beyond the veil, the Inquisitors involved come from the Ordo Hereticus, not the Ordo Malleus. This could also explain a lack of expertise for identifying a Living Saint's true nature, if you will, for I am certain that Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors would look for different signs and employ different methods than Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus when interviewing a subject.
So...if the Malleus does get involved, it could get ugly? Assuming, of course, they realize that Living Saints are 'possessed' in a similar manner to the dregs of Chaos.
Mynameisalie wrote:I think it would be flames. Really, the Ordo Malleus just want to kill daemons. That's all they do.
But that's my opinion.
So the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights will be marching on Ophelia VII and other Shrine Worlds? That should be entertaining. I wonder if they'd invite other Chapters into the party. I for one, will relish burning Ophelia VII down.
Let's face it, we all like fire.
Anyway, back on topic...
There is a chance, however slight, that a benign daemon of great power could manifest itself and be a great benefactor to whoever it favours.
I would like to have a benign daemon benefactor.
Mynameisalie wrote:Let's face it, we all like fire.
Anyway, back on topic...
There is a chance, however slight, that a benign daemon of great power could manifest itself and be a great benefactor to whoever it favours.
I would like to have a benign daemon benefactor.
While I believe benign warp entities could exist, I do not think they would survive for long against the other malign entities of the Warp.
If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.
Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.
Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.
Which would be pretty freaking epic. This can also be the classic GRIMDARK thing, as it stands beside a race it has chosen to bestow it's blessings on. It could even help them on the material plane, if need be.
I don't think it's as simple as anger=bloodletters, lust=daemonettes, or anything like that. I don't think a specific type of emotion actually creates an analogous type of daemon.
I think instead certain daemons find different emotions more palatable
Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.
Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.
Yes, it is. And the malleus would probably want to kill it, but others would say no. It depends.
Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.
Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.
Yes, it is. And the malleus would probably want to kill it, but others would say no. It depends.
Unfortunately for those against it, the Malleus would never give it up. Wasn't there something called the Malleus Remit that allows them to act on anyone they consider touched by the Warp apart from the Emperor himself.
I'm not focusing entirely on the Imperium. This could be for any race.
But yes, the Malleus would hound the point until they got their way: Execution or exterminatus, which is how they nromally get things done.
Mynameisalie wrote:I'm not focusing entirely on the Imperium. This could be for any race.
The Eldar may have accepted it with the old Eldar Gods, or the nascent Ynnead.
But yes, the Malleus would hound the point until they got their way: Execution or exterminatus, which is how they nromally get things done.
Which makes all the more exciting if they found out...the Ecclesiarchy would be reduced to simply another Chaos Cult, and the Astartes and the Mechanicum will finally have the chance to take out their grievances on the Ecclesiarchy with the blessing of the Ordo Malleus. Fist-bump with the Space Wolves, and a thousand light-year rampage to Ophelia VII.
Don't the Ecclesiarchy worship the Emperor? Or the God-Emperor, as they call him? Actually, the Emperor may just become a God if he truly dies. He has a strong enough psychic essence, that and the adoration and faith of trillions of souls. Actually that brought a really odd thought into my head. The Emperor dies, then he ends up in the Warp. It turns out Khorne just wants to have a swordfight and Tzeentch has been waiting 42,000 years to play a chess match with him, like they've been pals since he was born. That would be quite funny.
Mynameisalie wrote:Don't the Ecclesiarchy worship the Emperor? Or the God-Emperor, as they call him? Actually, the Emperor may just become a God if he truly dies. He has a strong enough psychic essence, that and the adoration and faith of trillions of souls.
Except that the revered Living Saints are daemons...which would send the Ordo Malleus up in flames.
Actually that brought a really odd thought into my head. The Emperor dies, then he ends up in the Warp. It turns out Khorne just wants to have a swordfight and Tzeentch has been waiting 42,000 years to play a chess match with him, like they've been pals since he was born. That would be quite funny.
LOL...Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle welcome their long-separated younger brother with pats on the back, and his younger sister Slaanesh embraces him and kisses him on the cheek. LMAO.
IKR?
Truth is, the Chaos Gods aren't evil as such. I think that they're really governed by the balance of emotion that makes them. So say (I know this isn't GRIMDARK) the galaxy finally came to some sort of agreement, and everything was all right again (stupid, I know), the positive emotion would dominate negative and the chaos gods would become more benign deities.
I'm just saying.
And isn't Slaanesh older than the Emperor?
That makes my head hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That sounds really strange.
Mynameisalie wrote:IKR? Truth is, the Chaos Gods aren't evil as such. I think that they're really governed by the balance of emotion that makes them. So say (I know this isn't GRIMDARK) the galaxy finally came to some sort of agreement, and everything was all right again (stupid, I know), the positive emotion would dominate negative and the chaos gods would become more benign deities.
I'm just saying.
And isn't Slaanesh older than the Emperor? That makes my head hurt.
Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle 'awakened' around the middle of the Dark Ages, but they came into existence (if not sentience) during the War in Heaven. Since the Emperor was born around 3000 BC, that would make the older than the Emperor. Slaanesh came into existence (but not sentience) as the Eldar Empire fell into decadence during the M20s. She would achieve full sentience only at the moment of the Fall of the Eldar itself.
Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.
Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.
I certainly prefer female.
I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?
And where did you find your sig? I need to read whatever it came from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tadashi wrote:
Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh. Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those. Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.
I certainly prefer female.
I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?
Probs yes. And the female thing made me giggle. But yes, the Kaos Gods need a female.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can just imagine the Emperor just striding in to each of the 4 Gods Realms and saying
"No, no, no! You're doing this all wrong! Try being like me for a change! You know, actually helping people and not just killing them! May myself damn it, you guys have had the wrong idea for 45,000 years. It's time for a change!"
Mynameisalie wrote:And where did you find your sig? I need to read whatever it came from.
Rogue Trader: Into the Maw
Tadashi wrote:
Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.
I certainly prefer female.
I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?
Probs yes.
And the female thing made me giggle. But yes, the Kaos Gods need a female.
I can just imagine the Emperor just striding in to each of the 4 Gods Realms and saying
"No, no, no! You're doing this all wrong! Try being like me for a change! You know, actually helping people and not just killing them! May myself damn it, you guys have had the wrong idea for 45,000 years. It's time for a change!"
I will try and make analogies with the Eldar Gods (and one of them might become an 'adopted' Human God)...
1) Khorne - becomes what Kaela Mensha Khaine was to the Eldar (and since Khorne is MUCH stronger than Khaine cue curbstomping)
2) Tzeentch - less on dickery and more on hope and beneficial change
3) Nurgle - a death god? Paired with Isha (the Emperor needs to teach Nurgle how to treat women properly) makes a perfect death and healing pair.
4) Slaanesh - sticks to female form once and for all. We need a goddess of love, art, and beauty.
5) The Emperor - takes the place of the dead Asuryan as 'Arbiter of Heaven', in other words, Lord of the Warp.
I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.
Mynameisalie wrote:I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.
Yup...so long as I get to kill priests and every member of the Ecclesiarchy I can find.
And what do you think would be a good theme tune for a 40k film. One that's something like a sequel, from the beginning of the 40k universe to the current day, and maybe even concluding it. That would be fething epic.
I have a whole playlist of songs for that role
Mynameisalie wrote:I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.
Yup...so long as I get to kill priests and every member of the Ecclesiarchy I can find.
U no like Ecclesiarchy, don't you?
I hate the b****** as well. They've perverted everything the Emperor was. They worship him when he clearly explained not to worship him as a god. How? He levelled an entire city to get people to agree. That's how you resolve a religious issue in 40k.
Mynameisalie wrote:They've perverted everything the Emperor was.
A cute little burst of misdirected rage, but the Emperor has in fact endorsed the Ecclesiarchy to some extent, through His direct and consistent support of the Sisters of Battle.
If you need an explanation, it's quite simple-- He would rather that the Imperium worship Him than risk them worshiping the Dark Powers.
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!
Haha so they are exactly like the imperium because if imperial citizens go against the emperor then they are burned and slaughtered for being a heritic so i think of it as
Emperor= chaos god
Imperium= his daemons
And if you go against him the inquisition burns you alive because all humans must live and worship the emporer or die!
The truimph of the Chaos Gods would be pretty much inimical to the continuation of sapient life, since, given the opportunity, they would end all physical constants, plunging the universe into seething, formless, uh, chaos. They are not necessarily motivated by malice in doing so, it's just their nature. The Imperium (as embodied in the Emperor himself) represents something antithetical to that: order, rules and regulations, cold, constant and unchanging. It would be a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the background to see the Emperor as an incipient god of Law, and the living saints as his daemons/avatars - in fact it provides a very sensible explanation for the (otherwise somewhat logically questionable) spreading of the Imperial Truth as the intended means of his ascension as a 'God of Rationality'.
Indeed long ago there were 'Gods of Law' in the Warhammer Fantasy setting, who represented the embodiments of abstract concepts (Alluminas was the god of knowledge, Solkan the god of justice, etc.), who weren't so much friendly to humanity as anti-Chaos; they have largely been forgotten about by the studio, though Solkan is still occasionally mentioned as being followed by witch-hunters. (Like the gods of Chaos, the idea had been pinched by GW from Michael Moorcock; read the later Elric stories and the Second Aether trilogy both for good illustrations of this and to see just how blatant GW's thievery was.) Following Moorcock's cosmology, the triumph of Law would equally bad for sapient life, since it would sweep away all that messy random stuff like free will.
Mynameisalie wrote:They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.
The Chaos Gods represent and subsist upon emotion, purity isn't an emotion but a concept - back to daemon of Law territory with that.
Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons'
They aren't.
There is no warp taint in the Living Saints.
Just a hypothesis based from the earlier posts. Besides, the existence of Saints and Acts of Faith have never been confirmed as being unconnected to the Warp. Even the Emperor himself was a mighty psyker.
That makes sense. Thx for clarifying. I'm sort of getting carried away. It's just Tadashi is on my wavelength. Something that I value quite a bit, considering I just moved country. To the UAE.
You learn something new about someone all the time...
Mynameisalie wrote:They've perverted everything the Emperor was.
A cute little burst of misdirected rage, but the Emperor has in fact endorsed the Ecclesiarchy to some extent, through His direct and consistent support of the Sisters of Battle.
If you need an explanation, it's quite simple-- He would rather that the Imperium worship Him than risk them worshiping the Dark Powers.
I don't care. The Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum are mewling maggots as far as I'm concerned. The latter I can tolerate along with the Inquisition, but if any of the former's ships appear in the sky over my custom Chapter's homeworld, I'm blowing them out of the sky for 'trespassing'. On the other hand, a Mechanicum ship/s would be welcomed as honored guests.
Really, you give this nonsensical vomit about disliking them going against hte Emperor's wishes, except they aren't, and then you say you'll blow them out of the sky or some other stupidity. What a crock. At least be consistent.
Really, you give this nonsensical vomit about disliking them going against hte Emperor's wishes, except they aren't, and then you say you'll blow them out of the sky or some other stupidity. What a crock. At least be consistent.
Monarchia was reduced to ashes, every last one of its inhabitants slaughtered to make an example that the worship of the Emperor would not be tolerated. The Emperor couldn't really intervene as the Ecclesiarchy grew in power seeing as he was confined to the Golden Throne by that time. To make matters worse, when Alicia and the others were brought before him, they received visions that could be interpreted multiple ways. They could simply have interpreted them in a manner that conformed to what they believed in.
Sorry, but Space Marines disdain the Ecclesiarchy. The Space Wolves have already blown them out of the sky once, considering the size of the Imperium, its probable its happened multiple times elsewhere.
And regarding the Acts of Faith, if they're so certain its not connected to the Warp, instead of letting the Ordo Hereticus doing the confirmation, let the Ordo Malleus do it. They're more qualified to judge whether or not something is touched by the Warp or not.
The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and humility for the sake of the Imperium. Unity against the forces that would move to destroy them. They promote cleanliness and hygiene in worlds where such things are almost unheard of, and try to prevent the Imperium from civil war. They unify the Imperium, bringing a bewildering variety of people together under a common belief system.
Their chamber militant operates hospitals renowned throughout the Imperium as the best of the best in quality of care, they defend the weak and helpless from the predations of the dark powers and xenos, and attempt to keep bickering nobles from open war against eachother. They study language, trying to keep the Imperium unified and help ensure that the widely disparate worlds and cultures can work together for the good of the Imperium.
There is a lot of criticism to be leveled at the Ecclesiarchy-- this is 40k after all, and nothing is ever perfectly good. But neither are most things ever perfectly evil, either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tadashi wrote:Monarchia was reduced to ashes, every last one of its inhabitants slaughtered to make an example that the worship of the Emperor would not be tolerated.
Because he wanted to discourage the man from open worship of 'Chaos. Not everything the Emperor did really made sense, because Games Workshop had a story to tell and they couldn't let logic and sanity get in the way of it.
Tadashi wrote:The Emperor couldn't really intervene as the Ecclesiarchy grew in power
Sure he could.
Tadashi wrote:Sorry, but Space Marines disdain the Ecclesiarchy.
And why should I give a damn? Space Marines are mostly irrelevant in the post-Horus Heresy era. Only one of the loyalists was actually alive back then anyway, and he's not talking. Marines spout a bunch of nonsense but in the end, they aren't even human anyway, so there's no reason to listen to them when talking about the fate of humanity.
Tadashi wrote:And regarding the Acts of Faith, if they're so certain its not connected to the Warp
Games Workshop specifically says that they are not. Consistently, every single time.
Melissia wrote:The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and humility for the sake of the Imperium. Unity against the forces that would move to destroy them. They promote cleanliness and hygiene in worlds where such things are almost unheard of, and try to prevent the Imperium from civil war. They unify the Imperium, bringing a bewildering variety of people together under a common belief system.
So did the Imperial Truth, which featured reason and technological certainty. With proper guidance, which I'm sure Guilliman or another of the loyalists could have provided if they hadn't been so eager to give power to the prima donna bureaucrats of the Administratum, the Imperial Truth could have done everything the Ecclesiarchy does. And at the same time, ensured a real future for the Imperium.
Their chamber militant operates hospitals renowned throughout the Imperium as the best of the best in quality of care, they defend the weak and helpless from the predations of the dark powers and xenos, and attempt to keep bickering nobles from open war against eachother. They study language, trying to keep the Imperium unified and help ensure that the widely disparate worlds and cultures can work together for the good of the Imperium.
Charitable organizations would have appeared sooner or later to fill in the Hospitallers' role...Iterators and Remembrancers would do the job of the Dialogous and the Famulous.
The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and working together for the good of the Imperium. There is a lot of criticism to be leveled at the Ecclesiarchy-- this is 40k after all, and nothing is ever perfectly good. But neither are most things ever perfectly evil, either.
So would have the Imperial Truth as enforced by the Legio Astartes, Imperial Iterator Corps, and Order of Remembrancers.
Melissia wrote:... they aren't even human anyway, so there's no reason to listen to them when talking about the fate of humanity.
They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.
Tadashi wrote:They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.
They are nothing more than self-glorifying mutants, debased inhuman things that are many generations removed from anything the Emperor created. They are not loyal to the Imperium, like the Ecclesiarchy, but instead only care about their own base self-interest.
Which is why the Imperium could not be trusted in the hands of the Astartes, and all your hopeless rantings about how the Astartes could make everything better is just a load of nonsensical marinewankery. Marines are just as flawed as the Ecclesiarchy, probably even more so; their arrogance matches Vandires at times. They are too inhuman, too disconnected from humanity to ever be competent in ruling.
Tadashi wrote:They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.
They are nothing more than self-glorifying mutants, debased inhuman things that are many generations removed from anything the Emperor created. They are not loyal to the Imperium, like the Ecclesiarchy, but instead only care about their own base self-interest.
Which is why the Imperium could not be trusted in the hands of the Astartes, and all your hopeless rantings about how the Astartes could make everything better is just a load of nonsensical marinewankery. Marines are just as flawed as the Ecclesiarchy, probably even more so; their arrogance matches Vandires at times. They are too inhuman, too disconnected from humanity to ever be competent in ruling.
The beauty of the Realm of Ultramar stands in stark contrast to the hellish conditions surrounding the grand cathedrals and convents of Ophelia VII.
Beauty? Please, it's no better than any other segmentums, and in many ways worse, because of bad strategic and tactical decisions made by the Astartes.
Beauty? Please, it's no better than any other segmentums, and in many ways worse, because of bad strategic and tactical decisions made by the Astartes.
(laughs) please. I can use fluff too...Ultramar is the greatest of the Space Marine realms, and the best place in the galaxy to live. Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition's entry on Chapter Masters even make it clear that Space Marine realms are better off than other Imperial fiefdoms.
...most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems, or sub-sectors in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war...
Tadashi wrote:So the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights will be marching on Ophelia VII and other Shrine Worlds? That should be entertaining. I wonder if they'd invite other Chapters into the party. I for one, will relish burning Ophelia VII down.
Sheesh, you are obsessed with this.
Why should the Ordo Malleus intend to purge the entire Ministorum just because a single individual has been taken over by a daemon? Might as well terminate all Space Marines, considering that a whopping 50% sided with Chaos during the Horus Heresy. Or hey, let's purge the Inquisition itself, considering that certain Radical Inquisitors use Daemonhosts.
As the Ecclesiarchy attempted to have the preacher Icarael sainted, Inquisitor Karamazov arrested, tortured and executed the guy for being a "false prophet", even as the Ecclesiarch himself intervened and petitioned to have the preacher freed, and other Inquisitors prepared to attack Karamazov's fortress as their requests to see this potential Living Saint were ignored. Still, Karamazov's claims were vindicated as the taint of Chaos was later uncovered amongst Icarael's followers. There was no aftermath for the Ecclesiarchy whatsoever, other than Karamazov is still disliked by both the Ministorum as well as the Thorian faction of the Inquisition.
You allow your judgment to be clouded by personal bias against the Adeptus Ministorum. Let go of it.
Melissia wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Besides, the existence of Saints and Acts of Faith have never been confirmed as being unconnected to the Warp.
Yes they have. Specifically stated not to be, in fact.
Correction - Acts of Faith have been stated as such. We know exactly nothing about the Living Saint.
In fact, the 3E Codex specifically throws a bone to this theory when, in the textbox about Living Saints, it states that "[...] the most earnest advocates of the beatification are to be found amongst the Thorians. This faction of the Inquisition believe that the great saint Sebastian Thor was in fact a vessel through which the Emperor took a direct hand in the course of history, and that other examples of such 'avatars' are to be found amongst the teeming billions of mankind. Others, notably members of the Ordo Malleus, oppose such theories, seeing in them the threat of domination from the denizens of the Warp."
I'd wish that people would label personal opinions as such instead of making it sound so convinced as if the books themselves would clearly state it somewhere - I think that would make many discussions on dakka a whole lot easier.
I think the point has been made that Tadashi hates the Ministorum and the Ecclesiarchy. If that's his view, let him have it. Different opinions make us individual.
If you don't think that, then that's fine. Everyone has something to say about one thing or another.
Mynameisalie wrote:If that's his view, let him have it. Different opinions make us individual.
Oh, absolutely. I just think there's a difference between having an opinion and letting it dominate a discussion.
For instance, I really cannot stand the Space Wolves and think the fluff would be better off without them - yet I do not make some sort of campaign of it and gloat over how wonderful it'd be to have them purged. Asking about possible repercussions is one thing, but this here went one step further, so I thought it necessary to advice taking a step back and re-evaluate one's stance towards the setting. We're not roleplaying in this thread, after all.
... or are we?
For the record, I'd be more than happy to slaughter a few Ministorum priests together with one of Tadashi's characters in a game of the Black Crusade RPG!
LoneLictor wrote:Tzeentch is hope.
Nurgle is caring.
Slaanesh is happiness.
Khorne is justice.
I suppose there are some cults who would want their members to believe this, yeah.
LoneLictor wrote:justice system is based around revenge which is based around anger)
I would say this depends greatly on the country. A lot of industrial nations actually have a justice system centered around deterrence and rehabilitation. The time we actually employed the "eye for an eye" thing is a few centuries over.
Also, a justice system by Khornates would have the death penalty for jaywalking.
LoneLictor wrote:Tzeentch is hope.
Nurgle is caring.
Slaanesh is happiness.
Khorne is justice.
I suppose there are some cults who would want their members to believe this, yeah.
Dude, it's true. The Chaos Gods are powered by emotion, and though in the grim darkness of the far future most emotion is negative in some way, some is good. Thus, the Chaos Gods aren't completely evil, just mostly evil. Like a guy who tortures small animals but loves his ma.
LoneLictor wrote:Dude, it's true. The Chaos Gods are powered by emotion, and though in the grim darkness of the far future most emotion is negative in some way, some is good. Thus, the Chaos Gods aren't completely evil, just mostly evil. Like a guy who tortures small animals but loves his ma.
I'm fairly sure this is not how it works. An individuum cannot be good and evil at the same time, especially since we are not discerning between "small animals" and "ma" here but these four entities' stance towards humanity. And from everything I've seen, this stance is fairly consistent.
Of course positive emotions exist somewhere amongst this torrent of hatred and violence, but whether these actually have an effect on the Chaos Gods is completely unknown (do you think a serial killer would change his mind if somebody hugged him?). It is also just as possible they simple get directed somewhere else (see the Living Saint theory) - after all, there once was a time when Slaanesh wasn't around, he/she/it only came into being as the emotion of pleasure surpassed a certain threshold; it doesn't seem as if it was "soaked up" by the other three Chaos Gods.
LoneLictor wrote:Tzeentch is hope. Nurgle is caring. Slaanesh is happiness. Khorne is justice.
(To clarify on the Khorne one; the justice system is based around revenge which is based around anger)
I think Khorne also represents courage. His warriors are either bat-**** crazy, insanely brave or both.
Lynata wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:Dude, it's true. The Chaos Gods are powered by emotion, and though in the grim darkness of the far future most emotion is negative in some way, some is good. Thus, the Chaos Gods aren't completely evil, just mostly evil. Like a guy who tortures small animals but loves his ma.
I'm fairly sure this is not how it works. An individuum cannot be good and evil at the same time, especially since we are not discerning between "small animals" and "ma" here but these four entities' stance towards humanity. And from everything I've seen, this stance is fairly consistent.
Of course positive emotions exist somewhere amongst this torrent of hatred and violence, but whether these actually have an effect on the Chaos Gods is completely unknown (do you think a serial killer would change his mind if somebody hugged him?). It is also just as possible they simple get directed somewhere else (see the Living Saint theory) - after all, there once was a time when Slaanesh wasn't around, he/she/it only came into being as the emotion of pleasure surpassed a certain threshold; it doesn't seem as if it was "soaked up" by the other three Chaos Gods.
On the other hand, I don't think the Chaos Gods would just die if everything was resolved and the Galaxy got along (that sounds really cheesy). You know, the pos/neg emotion balance tips towards positive? I think the Chaos Gods would be inverted in some way. That's my theory, anyway. It is theoretically possible. I also have a challenge for you guys, if you're interested.
I would imagine that angelic like beings could exist in the warp, and saints and other "good" beings being poed, at least in part of, by the positive emotions.
Mynameisalie wrote:On the other hand, I don't think the Chaos Gods would just die if everything was resolved and the Galaxy got along (that sounds really cheesy). You know, the pos/neg emotion balance tips towards positive? I think the Chaos Gods would be inverted in some way.
See, this is something I'd find far more plausible. Also ties in with the whole Khaine -> Khorne deal I was rambling about earlier.
Gentleorks, I present to you - The Warp:
Mynameisalie wrote:I also have a challenge for you guys, if you're interested.
For the record, I'd be more than happy to slaughter a few Ministorum priests together with one of Tadashi's characters in a game of the Black Crusade RPG!
I have no idea if you're trolling me or not...just to clarify, I prefer to keep my RP characters as 'Chaotic Good'. They break the letter of Imperial Law all the time, but the Inquisition can't really convict them since the spirit of the law is kept. Of course, the Ecclesiarchy hates them for this, but seeing as in one game of RP at my college's 40k group ended with an purgation force of sisters gunned down for 'interference' my characters are avoided by the Ecclesiarchy and their drones alike.
However, they would be quite weak, wouldn't they? The lack of emotion that actually formed them in the first place would leave them weak. They'd be hunted down, and destroyed. Unless they were contained in something ordinary Warp entities cannot get to...
Like a crystal, perhaps? Not Eldar Wraithbone specifically, but if they were contained inside a crystal where no daemon or god can get to them, then that might keep them alive long enough to evolve and grow.
Mynameisalie wrote:However, they would be quite weak, wouldn't they? The lack of emotion that actually formed them in the first place would leave them weak. They'd be hunted down, and destroyed. Unless they were contained in something ordinary Warp entities cannot get to...
Like a crystal, perhaps? Not Eldar Wraithbone specifically, but if they were contained inside a crystal where no daemon or god can get to them, then that might keep them alive long enough to evolve and grow.
you could just say that this is for your Lynx race.
Tadashi wrote:I have no idea if you're trolling me or not...just to clarify, I prefer to keep my RP characters as 'Chaotic Good'. They break the letter of Imperial Law all the time, but the Inquisition can't really convict them since the spirit of the law is kept. Of course, the Ecclesiarchy hates them for this, but seeing as in one game of RP at my college's 40k group ended with an purgation force of sisters gunned down for 'interference' my characters are avoided by the Ecclesiarchy and their drones alike.
Huh, no trolling - just expressing my ability to go beyond faction bias and enjoy a game "from the other side of the fence", so to say. Every setting needs its antagonists, and often they are awesome enough to be enjoyable playing. I usually don't do this in 40k, but I play "the bad guys" in a whole lot of other settings (Sith in Star Wars, Drow in D&D) and am quite capable in getting into their mindset and temporarily adopting their perspective of things to better portray whatever character I portray. I have also purchased the Black Crusade RPG rulebook, so the interest is there for 40k as well, even if I don't have a CSM/Daemon army in the TT.
That said, the game you mention sounds less like something I'd have much fun with - I consider consequences and the maxim that every action begets a reaction to be extremely important for consistency; it's part of why I dislike the Space Wolves, which I mentioned earlier, then without providing a reason.
Mynameisalie wrote:However, they would be quite weak, wouldn't they? The lack of emotion that actually formed them in the first place would leave them weak. They'd be hunted down, and destroyed. Unless they were contained in something ordinary Warp entities cannot get to...
Like a crystal, perhaps? Not Eldar Wraithbone specifically, but if they were contained inside a crystal where no daemon or god can get to them, then that might keep them alive long enough to evolve and grow.
I think that legend about Khaine and Khorne could be used to extrapolate from. Lots of hypothesising and theorising, but if there's an inkling of truth about the Eldar accounts of Khaine being "claimed" by Khorne that could already say a lot about how things work in the warp. The nature of daemons is so unclear that we could probably churn out a hundred ideas on how this works, including that Khaine and Khorne are just two aspects of the same entity, like two minds battling each other for possession of the body.
Mynameisalie wrote:However, they would be quite weak, wouldn't they? The lack of emotion that actually formed them in the first place would leave them weak. They'd be hunted down, and destroyed. Unless they were contained in something ordinary Warp entities cannot get to... Like a crystal, perhaps? Not Eldar Wraithbone specifically, but if they were contained inside a crystal where no daemon or god can get to them, then that might keep them alive long enough to evolve and grow.
you could just say that this is for your Lynx race.
did this really need its own thread?
Argh, damn it! How did you know?! Wait, forget that. You replied to the race thing. (headbang against a brick wall repeatedly) This thread is now going to go downhill. Forget the race, people!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, it did. Damn it. Still, it is something I was thinking about. It wasn't actually connected to my race at first...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:
Mynameisalie wrote:On the other hand, I don't think the Chaos Gods would just die if everything was resolved and the Galaxy got along (that sounds really cheesy). You know, the pos/neg emotion balance tips towards positive? I think the Chaos Gods would be inverted in some way.
See, this is something I'd find far more plausible. Also ties in with the whole Khaine -> Khorne deal I was rambling about earlier.
Gentleorks, I present to you - The Warp:
Mynameisalie wrote:I also have a challenge for you guys, if you're interested.
Does it involve a Daemonette?
I am actually LMAO. That is hilarious! But if that's a good description of the Warp, then I'm happy. No, it doesn't involve a Daemonette. Can you turn each of the Greater Daemons of each Chaos God into a benign daemon? I dare you to try it. The only one I can do is Tzeentch. So, you have to create a Greater Daemon of each Ruinous Power using only the positive aspects of that god. I'd like to see someone try that. It'll be insanely hard. It took me 48 hours to come up with Tzeentch.
Lynata wrote:
That said, the game you mention sounds less like something I'd have much fun with - I consider consequences and the maxim that every action begets a reaction to be extremely important for consistency; it's part of why I dislike the Space Wolves, which I mentioned earlier, then without providing a reason.
Funny story, actually. I had to pick between escorting several thousand civilian evacuees or an Ecclesiarchy convoy including a Cardinal - I chose the former, and the latter was butchered by Orks with the Cardinal barely escaping with his life. So, the guy sends a purgation force of sisters as retaliation, but thing is, my group was busy reclaiming a manufactorum when the sisters charge with their guns blazing. You can imagine how the Skitarii and Space Marines took that. The game ended with the Inquisition dismissing all allegations of treason and heresy - can't really fault the Astartes for saving several thousand civilians and the Mechanicum for gunning down sisters who were blowing holes in precious machinery.
Mynameisalie wrote:No, it doesn't involve a Daemonette. Can you turn each of the Greater Daemons of each Chaos God into a benign daemon? I dare you to try it. The only one I can do is Tzeentch. So, you have to create a Greater Daemon of each Ruinous Power using only the positive aspects of that god.
I'd like to see someone try that. It'll be insanely hard. It took me 48 hours to come up with Tzeentch.
Huh - well, personally I don't agree with all the connections LoneLictor made, but he was off to a good start.
Tzeentch really is hope, for change can be positive when your current situation sucks or you simply intend to somehow better it. Tzeentch can also be the God of Knowledge and Science, and generally a patron of advancement and exploration.
Nurgle ... huh, I suppose he could become a God of Health and Rejuvenation. In my opinion, the proliferation of its plagues is way more important to Nurgle than "care", but nobody actually says that plagues have to be bad, right? They could instead immunize people against local malaries, or help their bodies adapt better to averse conditions on the world people are living on. Kind of like a symbiotic relationship?
Slaanesh ... well, nobody says that pleasure and perfection are bad - the difficult thing is that there needs to be a line drawn. If Slaanesh would simply tone down his or her exploits a little, everything would be alright. But is this possible?
Same for Khorne, really. He could become a God of contests, the patron of fighters pitting their might against one another in honourable combat. I would not be surprised if many native cultures across the galaxy erroneously revere him as such already.
Tadashi wrote:Funny story, actually. I had to pick between escorting several thousand civilian evacuees or an Ecclesiarchy convoy including a Cardinal - I chose the former, and the latter was butchered by Orks with the Cardinal barely escaping with his life. So, the guy sends a purgation force of sisters as retaliation, but thing is, my group was busy reclaiming a manufactorum when the sisters charge with their guns blazing.
Why would a cardinal send a "purgation force" if you were given a choice? Sounds like that guy was abusing his authority and the Sororitas (strange that he had access to them later on but not for his convoy) did not even know. In this case, the consequences should probably include an internal affairs investigation within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy, imho.
Tadashi wrote:Funny story, actually. I had to pick between escorting several thousand civilian evacuees or an Ecclesiarchy convoy including a Cardinal - I chose the former, and the latter was butchered by Orks with the Cardinal barely escaping with his life. So, the guy sends a purgation force of sisters as retaliation, but thing is, my group was busy reclaiming a manufactorum when the sisters charge with their guns blazing.
Why would a cardinal send a "purgation force" if you were given a choice? Sounds like that guy was abusing his authority and the Sororitas (strange that he had access to them later on but not for his convoy) did not even know. In this case, the consequences should probably include an internal affairs investigation within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy, imho.
That character was actually sent into early retirement by the Ordo Hereticus for sparking an incident between the Ecclesiarchy on one side, and the Space Marines and the Mechanicum on the other side. The Mechanicum was very angry, seeing a precious manufactorum recovered almost intact from the Orks get damaged by sisters sent in by a Cardinal who apparently told them that the Space Marines had fled the field instead of standing and fight. The surviving sisters went on a pilgrimage to Dimmamar as penance for their ignorance, so we won't be seeing those group of characters for...a month, I think.
Come to think of it, I wonder why the GM gave his (I'm not giving names) character access to sisters...but aren't sisters technically part of the Ecclesiarchy, just seconded to the Ordo Hereticus whenever necessary?
Mynameisalie wrote:Just proves the extent of mankind's ignorance and stupidity. And reflects it in real life as well. Ah, well, we're human. It's what we are.
Darwinian/Nitzschean Trans-Humans...join us. We are the future...
LOL!
For some reason I feel a real need to spam, but I'll refrain from it.
Wait a second...
This is my 301st post!
I feel like I should include something of worth in it.
Ok, well, someone mentioned earlier about my race? Yes, It's true. I have been trying to see whether this could support a theory I have formulated for my race for the last 8 odd posts I have made. Hate me if you will. But hey! I'm an idealist!
That's actually all I can currently think of... God I need to lay off the coke and coffee.
Mynameisalie wrote:LOL!
For some reason I feel a real need to spam, but I'll refrain from it.
Wait a second...
This is my 301st post!
I feel like I should include something of worth in it.
Ok, well, someone mentioned earlier about my race? Yes, It's true. I have been trying to see whether this could support a theory I have formulated for my race for the last 8 odd posts I have made. Hate me if you will. But hey! I'm an idealist!
That's actually all I can currently think of... God I need to lay off the coke and coffee.
She's not the goddess... She's a priestess of the Artaich. Stupid name for a goddess, I know. I was going to make the Artaich a benign Tzeentch greater daemon, if you see where I'm going... And thanks, btw. I appreciate your support . I'll PM you the current fluff so far, if you like. You don't have to say yes. And the name of the Lynx on my avatar is Amber. She's a special character in my race.
Ok, will do. I haven't changed the goddess notion yet, so it's not up-to-date with the info I'm getting. In truth, most of the fluffs I'll be making with polls is to secretly see whether I could fit something into my race. However, I only started doing that on this thread on the 4th page.
LoneLictor wrote:Dude, it's true. The Chaos Gods are powered by emotion, and though in the grim darkness of the far future most emotion is negative in some way, some is good. Thus, the Chaos Gods aren't completely evil, just mostly evil. Like a guy who tortures small animals but loves his ma.
I'm fairly sure this is not how it works. An individuum cannot be good and evil at the same time, especially since we are not discerning between "small animals" and "ma" here but these four entities' stance towards humanity. And from everything I've seen, this stance is fairly consistent.
The chaos gods aren't presented as 'evil' in an abstract sense, they're not moustache-twirling villains (even if badly-written traitors are), it's just that as embodiments of primordial, unfettered emotions they are inimical to little things like physical laws and the continued existence of sapient life. It's just not within their nature to moderate what they represent to conform to what we would define as 'good'.
Mynameisalie wrote:Can you turn each of the Greater Daemons of each Chaos God into a benign daemon? I dare you to try it. The only one I can do is Tzeentch. So, you have to create a Greater Daemon of each Ruinous Power using only the positive aspects of that god.
Not without going against how the setting presents chaos and the warp, and (more importantly) not without flying in the face of the setting's long-established tone and style, no you can't. If you want to write material to expand an established fictional universe, there are concepts you need to learn to understand.
*shrugs* Sure. However, a new God could step around that problem. My idea was that a crystal, not native to the Milky Way, trapped a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch within its deepest confines. When my race began to worship it, it eventually became a benign daemon, through influx of positive emotion attributed to Tzeentch.
[sarcasm]Yes, because a benevolent chaos god and his race of friendly, magic crystal-wielding, universe-saving cat people perfectly fit Warhammer 40,000, a setting in which mankind's only hope is an unimaginable brutal and totalitarian society ruled over by a rotting psychic cadaver kept clinging to an agonising life by the sacrifice of thousands every day.[/sarcasm]
'Theme' and 'atmosphere' are not just empty words.
Grey Templar wrote:He's been around far longer then the Chaos Gods have.
Hence my theory that Khaine could have evolved into Khorne, since the thoughs and emotions of the people have a direct influence on the warp, thusly "tainting" it. And as new races popped up all over the galaxy, all with their own violent cultures ...
Actually, how long has Khorne been around? I only know of Slaanesh being "fairly new".
There is no sense of time in the Warp, from the material realm we see things linear, but in the warp the Gods have always and never existed.
Codex Chaos Daemons: That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect. In essence Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.
Khorne is the first to come in being, then Tzeentch and then Nurgle.
Lost and the Damned: Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the Globe ... By the End of the Middle Ages all three of there Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness.
Lynata wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:It seems odd then that Khaine would have fought against Slannesh, lost, and then get broken into lots of pieces. Seems that Khorne would be strangely absent from the pantheon.
Or maybe Khorne is one such piece. Or maybe the "breaking" should not be taken literal but rather in a figurative meaning.
There's a lot of ways to make it work. Of course there's nothing I can provide as "proof", I'm just pointing out some very suspicious similarities concerning these gods' name as well as their domains. Apparently, Khaine used to be revered as the god of "murder, violence, destruction and war", whereas Khorne is revered as the god of "hate, violence, rage and bloodshed". So ... duh.
Previous fluff does seem to suggest this, and you know what that means Lynata
WD 127When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him
Lynata wrote:
Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
Whilst the Chaos Gods themselves may resort solely to attacking those who attack them, the same cannot be said of their subjects. In the pursuit of earning their God's favour and living by whatever twisted dogma the various Gods' servants propagate, they slaughter and sacrifice countless innocent lives every day using methods most vile. Even the Imperium's oppression pales to the atrocities committed by Chaos cults and warbands.
Khorne does not care where the blood comes from as long as it flows, Slaanesh does not care if all participants subjected to an orgy actually gain any pleasure of it as long as some do, etc ...
But not all Chaos cultures are um, unstable. The Nurthene mentioned in Legion were Chaos worshipers yet they seemed to have an established way of life, the same could even be said about the Laer, Davinites or the folks of the fake Terra. The last stand at the Whisperheads clearly shows that they worshiped some of entity, whether or not it was Samus.
Good daemons, on topic finally, I guess are possible, but there doesn't seem to be a God of Good, even if there were a God of Order it would take it to the extreme and extremities are usually not good things. Like has been mentioned, the Living Saints are the closest thing I would guess, but that's more along the lines of being imbued with power than an actual possession I think, nor is it an actual Daemon. More along the lines of Sorcery
English Assassin wrote:[sarcasm]Yes, because a benevolent chaos god and his race of friendly, magic crystal-wielding, universe-saving cat people perfectly fit Warhammer 40,000, a setting in which mankind's only hope is an unimaginable brutal and totalitarian society ruled over by a rotting psychic cadaver kept clinging to an agonising life by the sacrifice of thousands every day.[/sarcasm]
'Theme' and 'atmosphere' are not just empty words.
And I have edited the fluff a lot since you last read it. Trust me. Not universe saving at all.
While we've posited that a "good daemon" is a possibility, even if not well-documented in the fluff, daemons that are already existing do not change with additional emotions invested in them. A Lord of Change is always going to be a Lord of Change, and is an aspect of Tzeentch's ever-plotting, ever-twisting mind of schemes, plans, double-crosses, triple-crosses, contradictory plots and accumulation of knowledge. It was created for this purpose, and will forever exist for this purpose. This is what it does, and is, and no amount of worship by humans (or anyone else for that matter) is going to change that.
What it would do, if it were being worshiped by sentients, is to force upon these people the desire for change, revolution and societal upheaval, whether that is through rebellion, revolution, changes in culture and social mores, or all of these things as often as possible at the same time forever. As soon as the society changes to whatever it told them it wanted them to change it to, it would tell them to change it to something else... because that is what Tzeentch does.
Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..
Because they are, and they don't. What is "nice" to their followers is a matter of perspective. Sure, they might grant you a Gift that allows you to see in the dark, or strike fear into the hearts of lesser mortals with a word... but they might also just make you grotesquely fat, or make your head shrink so much that it crushes your brain and leaves you a gibbering idiot, or turn your legs into a giant slug-body, or give you the head of a frog. The gifts of Chaos are granted and given without regard to how you might feel about them.
Further, once your pact with them is struck, they often arrange it so that you must make greater and greater sacrifices to them. Maybe the first time it was just a simple murder of someone you didn't particularly like, because they were a big jerk. The second time it was the murder of someone you didn't personally know, but you heard was a big jerk. Now the Arbites are after you, and you need some divine intervention to get you away safely... so now they demand the lives of your family. Next, well, you ran afoul of the Inquisition, but your Patron Power can get you out of it... if you ritually torture and murder everyone in that orphanage over there. Next they'll want you to torch an old folks home. Or raze a village and leave none alive, all to be ritualistically violated, tortured, and then killed. Now it's causing the death of entire worlds....
The Gods of Chaos are madness and unhealthy obsessions taken to extremes beyond mortal comprehension. Simply invoking their names, or the true names of their daemonic servants is often enough to cause Warp Corruption, which erodes the purity of the human soul, and chips away at the very humanity of an individual.
I think basically the Eldar Gods were "good daemons" (though warp being would be more acccurate) or at least gods of order. But they all got killed. Basically there was a war in the warp and evil won. The Emperor is the last hold out of good warp-beings.
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.
There already is a Chaos God of Hope. Tzeentch's raw primal emotion is hope. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.
I disagree on love and compassion
Spoiler:
Image contains a real photo of a combat casualty evacuation and may be considered graphic by some (no guts hanging out or anything)
Greater love have no man then this, to lay down his life for his friends.
That's the extremes of love and compassion, the willingness to sacrifice yourself for them. Smothering, jealousy and possessiveness are the negative extremes of love and compassion.
For another, non military example:
This woman lived her entire life by love and compassion for the poor and suffering. There's nothing unextreme about it when it comes to doing what she did... but none of it smothering or obsessive
First dude gave power to Khorne, the God of Bloodlust, Slaughter and Violence. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Blood for the Blood God and so forth.
Mother Teresa may actually have been an atheist. There's rather a lot of controversy surrounding some of her personal writings released after her death.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:That's the extremes of love and compassion, the willingness to sacrifice yourself for them. Smothering, jealousy and possessiveness are the negative extremes of love and compassion.
I think that's what he was aiming at with "extremes", as extremes are generally regarded to be the negative side of something.
Else I'm sure we could find positive examples for just about any extreme claimed by one of the Chaos Gods.
Regarding Mother Teresa:
She has also been criticized for her view on suffering. She felt that suffering would bring people closer to Jesus. Sanal Edamaruku, President of Rationalist International, criticised the failure to give painkillers, writing that in her Homes for the Dying, one could "hear the screams of people having maggots tweezered from their open wounds without pain relief. On principle, strong painkillers are even in hard cases not given. According to Mother Teresa's philosophy, it is 'the most beautiful gift for a person that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ'." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa#Criticism
I'd say that would definitively count as a negative effect of "extreme compassion" - notably coming from a person you named as a positive example.
and we actually already have the positive examples somewhere in the thread. Khorne represents warrior honor just as much as he represents bloodshed and slaughter, etc If anything Teresa's actions prove my second point that I was going to try to make. Nothing's really that black and white. Especially with the chaos gods everything is grey.
Edit: Also and that's what I get for going with the first "Good" example I could think of without doing a background check XD
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Khorne represents warrior honor just as much as he represents bloodshed and slaughter, etc
Hmm, I don't think Khorne cares anything about honour - that would be something his followers could make up, though.
There's definitively something to the black/white thing, though. Which is why I like this setting so much. I have a slight aversion against settings that are clearly black vs white as it takes a good deal of complexity out of the background ... complexity and potential.
Still, from our perspective and moral model, I'm sure the Chaos Gods are Evil - simply because they do not care about their followers, but their worship promotes horrible abuse and slaughter, and over time even moderate cults are corrupted to increasingly promote their Patron God's agenda (which just tends to be somewhat unhealthy for the majority).
The Imperium isn't much better, but since it stands for Order, people's chance to live a relatively normal life is slightly higher ... largely depending on the world you're born on, though.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Khorne represents warrior honor just as much as he represents bloodshed and slaughter, etc
Hmm, I don't think Khorne cares anything about honour - that would be something his followers could make up, though.
There's definitively something to the black/white thing, though. Which is why I like this setting so much. I have a slight aversion against settings that are clearly black vs white as it takes a good deal of complexity out of the background ... complexity and potential.
Still, from our perspective and moral model, I'm sure the Chaos Gods are Evil - simply because they do not care about their followers, but their worship promotes horrible abuse and slaughter, and over time even moderate cults are corrupted to increasingly promote their Patron God's agenda (which just tends to be somewhat unhealthy for the majority).
The Imperium isn't much better, but since it stands for Order, people's chance to live a relatively normal life is slightly higher ... largely depending on the world you're born on, though.
I agree. The battle between Chaos and The Imperium isn't a battle between good and evil but chaos (obviously) and order. It just so happens Chaos is totally evil though...
DeffDred wrote:Chaos is neutral. All things, both good and evil, empower them.
And extremes empower them more, which is why they will always want more, and will make you want more as well. Your cigarette example works pretty okay to exemplify this, actually, for smoking remains unhealthy regardless of whether you enjoy it or not, and it is addictive.
DeffDred wrote:Nurgle loves his followers.
Nurgle loves spreading plagues. His followers are a means to an end.
I would agree that this makes him the least self-destructive Chaos God, though, compared to Khorne ("I SAID MORE SACRIFICES!"), Tzeentch ("just trolling lol") or Slaanesh ("So ... you said you can make drugs from human bodies?").
I've always been fond of this dynamic: The imperium, and humanity seek to impose order on an inherently chaotic system (life, the universe, etc...) and by doing so clearly define the boundaries of what is order, and what is chaos.
In this case, creating the structure of sentient society and what should be done, reason defined what shouldn't be done.
The realms of chaos can only exist in contrast to individuals struggling against it.
I suppose "chaos" would have existed before that though, just naming it concentrated it.
I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.
matsa13 wrote:I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.
Daemon is a name used to describe most warp entities, it's really just a description used due to the fact the nature of the entities and where they come from.
Tadashi wrote:The proper term is 'void-denizen/void-predator of the Warp'...'angel', 'daemon', 'god', they all smack of superstitious lies.
Agreed, I imagine though Angel would only be a human term.
In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.
Calling it an angel would not only be cliche, but again unoriginal, and I'd imagine some daemons can take whatever form suits them best, so simply assuming daemons of a more neutral nature would be angelic isn't really right.
matsa13 wrote:I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.
This is, of course what the Greek word 'daemon' literally means. Its negative connotations come solely from its usage in early Greek translations of the old testament as a term for various evil spirits/naughty angels/generic supernatural bad things.
blood reaper wrote:In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.
Just as the eldar say "She who thirsts" rather than "Slaanesh". But surely it has nothing to do with what they're called: Simply whether they exist or not.
blood reaper wrote:In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.
Just as the eldar say "She who thirsts" rather than "Slaanesh". But surely it has nothing to do with what they're called: Simply whether they exist or not.
The Eldar do that cause theyre afraid of the name.
In the WHFbWoC armybook they give some different names for the gods, but they are rather the same (Tzeentch-Tzchar)
Oh, and Khorne is maybe Khaine too.
Heh.
As daemons are the manifestation of mortal emotions, it is perfectly reasonable to say that they might represent "good" emotions.
On the other hand though, they might not be as strong as regular evil daemons, and get devoured.
Yes, so they'd need to be protected. I.e. the crystal I mentioned earlier. It's a containment system. It also allows daemons to stay in a physical form near them, if they aren't imprisoned. You know how daemons can't exist for a long time outside the Warp, correct? This crystal allows a daemon to stabilise a material form, and therefore remain in realspace, away from other daemons, safely. However, it does cut off a daemon's power to the Warp quite substantially.
If you think about it, that's pretty much what the Emperor is now. Think about it, he resides in the warp, battling gods and casting blessing down on his people. Where do you think the Sisters get their lucky charms? It's not as direct as anger leads to hate, hate leads to Khorne, Khorne leads to "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD". But, the spirit is similiar.
Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.
Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?
Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.
Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.
Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.
FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.
Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.
Hope is a 'state of mind' according to some people as well, but it still powers Tzeench.
FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.
Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.
Hope is a 'state of mind' according to some people as well, but it still powers Tzeench.
Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.
Mynameisalie wrote:
Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.
Yes, but it's still an extreme state. Remember that virtues can be taken to extremes as well as vices.
Honor, for example, is a virtue. But it still feeds Khorne.
Yes. There are many benevolent beings which I consider Daemons. For example:
-The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host
-Saint Celestine (and living saints in general)
-Other individuals or objects in the lore who/which have been known to appear in order to warn or protect the Imperium and its citizens. For example the space hulk The Blade of Eternity, which seems to herald the coming of Chaos Space Marines in the systems it materializes into.
I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.
Psienesis wrote:
That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.
As someone considered 'mentally abnormal' I resent the implication that I lack restraint. I'll have you know that it takes a tremendous amount of it to manage my condition in what people consider 'modern society'. I horrify psychologists. In the words of one researcher at YSU I am 'more intelligent than anyone giving him (me) tests' but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.
The fear of nuclear conflict is the only thing that keeps mankind from indulging in total war in this day and age. OMG we lost 6280 men (approx) since 9/11! The Horror! We should all give up now (according to the media, though which media depends on who's in the White House) I hate to see what modern America would say if faced with a real war. We lost that many in SIX MINUTES at Cold Harbor.
I'm not saying that mass casualty events are good, far from it. But in a real conflict they happen, gak blows up, people die. If the American people think that the war on terror has had terrible casualties, wait till China (or pick your foreign power) decides to invade.
Psienesis wrote:
That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.
As someone considered 'mentally abnormal' I resent the implication that I lack restraint. I'll have you know that it takes a tremendous amount of it to manage my condition in what people consider 'modern society'. I horrify psychologists. In the words of one researcher at YSU I am 'more intelligent than anyone giving him (me) tests' but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.
The fear of nuclear conflict is the only thing that keeps mankind from indulging in total war in this day and age. OMG we lost 6280 men (approx) since 9/11! The Horror! We should all give up now (according to the media, though which media depends on who's in the White House) I hate to see what modern America would say if faced with a real war. We lost that many in SIX MINUTES at Cold Harbor.
I'm not saying that mass casualty events are good, far from it. But in a real conflict they happen, gak blows up, people die. If the American people think that the war on terror has had terrible casualties, wait till China (or pick your foreign power) decides to invade.
So we've changed this to WW3 and terrorists?
Me thinks someone has been watching a bit too much Red Dawn.
One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.
BaronIveagh wrote:[...] but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.
Stop going to shrinks - you Americans do that way too often anyways. You sound like a perfectly normal human being that has just received a huge dose of cynism and pragmatism from watching/reading too much news. If that is considered "abnormal" in your country, that is only the case because the majority is living in happy-go-lucky-land, for some reason having managed to preserve their optimism as the world slowly goes to gak.
Don't make me feel like I should go to a shrink, too.
DeffDred wrote: One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.
Really? Why are there still so many white men around if every invasion failed?
Japan used to think the same thing. "Genghis Khan failed, what can these Americans possibly hope to do?"
They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.
English Assassin wrote:...and it's back to magic crystals. This thread now firmly belongs in the ghetto of 'Dakka Fiction'.
There are 'magic crystals' in 40k...Coteaz smashed one in a Conclave once.
Tadashi wrote:
They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.
So what happened to those hundred thousand men on Okinawa, then?
And the United States should be no better then the Nazis in the eyes of the world. After all, what Hitler did was a speck on the ass of what first Spain, then England, then the United States did. He just did it faster.
But then, no one in the world has the balls to suggest that the US be divided up like Palestine was and handed back over to the natives.
Psienesis wrote:
Brush up on your literacy, hoss. I didn't imply that you lack restraint, I flat out stated that you were in possession of them.
You flat out stated that I was in possession of restraints? Well, technically they belong to the state of Pennsylvania, but I am in possession of them...
Tadashi wrote:
They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.
Yep, Fiction.
And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...
And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...
Technically he's right, if you only consider the main islands of Japan. And as a fan of anime and crystals (and many other minerals, but most particularly fossils) but not a fan of cats, I'm vaguely offended.
And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...
Technically he's right, if you only consider the main islands of Japan. And as a fan of anime and crystals (and many other minerals, but most particularly fossils) but not a fan of cats, I'm vaguely offended.
Technically, Tadashi cannot be right. It's a universal constant. When there's a Tadashi post that contains something which is accurate, then it's to be assumed that he did not author it, but instead left his Dakka account open for someone else.
And no, the U.S would not have had to kill them all. That's just false. And crazy. When was the last time a nation state was wiped, however devoted they were to their figure-head? Never, that's when.
Oh and no offense to anyone liking cats, anime, crystals, or dude for that matter, but all offense to those who like bad 40k fiction. I mean, bad fiction is bad, how bad is it when it's also bad 40k fiction? (wow I think I've just invented a new koan)
The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.
Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.
Yeah, Khwarezmian Empire was always a freaking hard Medieval TW Stainless Steel campaign...
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Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.
Yeah, Khwarezmian Empire was always a freaking hard Medieval TW Stainless Steel campaign...
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Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.
And you are proud of that.
Do I need to say more?
Yes. I'm not proud of what we did in the war (my great-grandfathers were both soldiers - the paternal one refused to tell anything that happened in Manchuria and the maternal one spent most of the occupation in a hellish prison camp) but my point is that Asia would be better off (if not independent) under an Asian power at the least as opposed to Western powers. At the very least, even in defeat, we helped exhaust the West to the point they couldn't restore their control over their FORMER colonies.
FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.
Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.
What? It seems you completely misunderstood me somehow. I never said compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment', not sure where you got my "weird idea"???
I was saying that what the poster was describing was "clingy attachment" AS OPPOSED to compassion. There is a big difference, as there is a BIG difference between love and universal compassion and desire, lust and attachment. I feel genuinely bad for people who cannot see the difference, but that's the way the world is unfortunately.
But anyway, the way I see it is that it's totally possible to have a Daemon based on lust, or obsessiveness, or any other emotion that is based on desire (because extreme forms of desire are always negative), but not universal compassion or love (the non-clingy kind).
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.
Destruction of the Erie (really their name, and for whom the city is named) nation in Western New York in the 17th Century. The city sits on the location of their last stand, according to accounts, the blood was ankle deep in places. An interesting note, the Erie were possessed of a genetic quirk that the majority of them were in excess of six feet tall, and Erie ancestry is considered the source for the occasional Seneca (who killed or enslaved the Erie) who exceed six or seven feet in height.
The Romans were quite fond of that sort of campaign. Quite few peoples were wiped out or enslaved.
The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.
Mynameisalie wrote:
Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.
Yes, but it's still an extreme state. Remember that virtues can be taken to extremes as well as vices.
Honor, for example, is a virtue. But it still feeds Khorne.
'Extreme state', perhaps. But it isn't a desire. You aren't attaching yourself to any object of desire and chasing it endlessly when you are truly selfless. You don't want want anything in return, because you have no sense of 'I' and no ego, you see yourself as a part of the universe and everyone and every thing in the universe is connected and one. So any sense of self has been eliminated.
Honor is a desire as it is an extension of pride, or a desire to be recognised in some way. So for me it's easy to see why it feeds Khorne. Though, not to say honor cannot be positive. Just in it's extreme form it is negative and harmful, as is any desire.
Okay, so I admit that due to my Buddhist upbringing (I would still class my beliefs as predominantly Buddhist, though I don't follow any religion now I am older) my views on this are probably a bit pre-determined.
This actually highlights the limitations of this subject: We don't know what views the writers of this fluff have or originally had. And more importantly, it is totally open to individual interpretation, depending on the individual's beliefs. So as this is a fictional universe where we have a different set of physics (the warp, psychic powers), it's probably not useful to try and apply our sets of beliefs based on what we know about THIS universe to the 40k universe.
The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.
India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.
The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.
India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.
I bow in respect...and I will when I get the chance to visit Yasukuni Shrine.
Shame he was a crazy, conspiracy nut who was willfully ignorant...
He claimed that all defendants were innocent because the tribunal itself was illegitimate and claimed the US had provoked the war and expected Japan to act...
Tadashi wrote:
India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.
Ok, now that's a blatant misrepresentation of Pals findings. Pal's dissenting opinion was not based in the actions of Japan, (he stated the evidence against them was overwhelming) but in the idea that the trial was not actually justice, but rather retribution (a valid point). While he was (in all honesty) correct in questioning the legitimacy of the tribunal, he at no point denied that Japan had really committed all those atrocities, something that many Japanese nationalists leave out when they select excerpts from his dissension. He felt that the Class B and C war crimes trials covered Japans crimes, and that a class A was unneeded other then as a spectacle.
*Bangs head on desk*
We actually manage to get back on topic for 3 posts. It's a start. Can we try not to include countries obliterating others and whatnot in this thread? If you really want to discuss that, please do it in the OT forum. No disrespect, but it's where debates like that belong, ok?
FifteenHours, you are correct. We can't involve what we believe in in this discussion and yes, it is very open to individual opinions. However, if this thread does actually manage to tie up a loose end(s) in 40k, then I'm happy.
These benign daemons have to be thought about very carefully. I think we have already determined that a single emotion or concept can be both negative and positive, but most obsessions/desires are primarily negative. Some, such as selflessness, can be regarded as positive.
Anyone else got anything against this? Or anything to add?
Mynameisalie wrote:*Bangs head on desk*
We actually manage to get back on topic for 3 posts. It's a start. Can we try not to include countries obliterating others and whatnot in this thread? If you really want to discuss that, please do it in the OT forum. No disrespect, but it's where debates like that belong, ok?
FifteenHours, you are correct. We can't involve what we believe in in this discussion and yes, it is very open to individual opinions. However, if this thread does actually manage to tie up a loose end(s) in 40k, then I'm happy.
These benign daemons have to be thought about very carefully. I think we have already determined that a single emotion or concept can be both negative and positive, but most obsessions/desires are primarily negative. Some, such as selflessness, can be regarded as positive.
Anyone else got anything against this? Or anything to add?
Selflessness can easily be for a bad reason, sacrificing ones self for another is quite common in 40k by Chaos Cultists to summon daemons and such, it's not always am heroic action.
blood reaper wrote:
Selflessness can easily be for a bad reason, sacrificing ones self for another is quite common in 40k by Chaos Cultists to summon daemons and such, it's not always am heroic action.
From the perspective of the cultists it is. The real problem is that 40k has parodies of human beings, not human beings. The only thing I can think of to date that really touches on this would be Pawns of Chaos, which does have a Lord of Change sacrifice itself to save a planet from exterminatus (though the ending does have a lot of clear executive meddling, including Tzeench's big speech to the main character at the end about how his big plan being highjacked just made things more fun).
Nothing positive comes from the warp...
It's managed to be even more inimical to humankind than regular space. It's so inimical it attacks humans every now and again to make sure they're paying attention...
It's like space Australia...
purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...
On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:
Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.
Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion?
Where?
Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.
purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...
On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:
Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.
Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion?
Where?
Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.
It says it is a dark reflection of the material universe...
That implies that it is purely negative otherwise it would simply say reflection...
There have been other warp entities mentioned bar daemons and they have been somewhat horrific as well...
purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...
On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:
Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.
Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion? Where? Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.
Right there. Dark implies malign and unnatural. Malign and unnatural is the opposite of positive. Ergo, there are not positive or good warp entities.
blood reaper wrote:Can anyone name a positive warp entity that isn't utterly evil?
wasn't there something called the hydra? It was supposedly a warp entity that didn't mean to harm people, it was just passing by.
However, iirc, its presence drove some astropath mad, who then sent an order (under the pretence that it came from an inquisitor) to declare an exterminatus on that world.
Implies. There is a heck of a lot of difference between implying something and something being something.
I have checked, and it does not say on Lexicanum, on the 40k wiki, not in the 6th ed rulebook or in the BL that the Warp that contains purely negative emotion. Daemons and the suchalike are created by a God's essence, or form themselves out of emotion. There is nothing against the theory that there is sufficient positive energy to form a benign Warp entity, however, it would be hunted and ultimately devoured by a stronger daemon or a chaos God. If there was a way to protect said benign entities from the stronger, malicious daemons then benign daemons are a real and entirely acceptable possibility.
And yet you are taking the absence of it saying there is definitely not a positive warp entity to mean there could be which is a much further jump than ours which is simply a logical inference.
Dark is used to describe it. If they didn't want to describe it was negative they wouldn't use dark...
Mynameisalie wrote:*Bangs head on desk*
We actually manage to get back on topic for 3 posts. It's a start. Can we try not to include countries obliterating others and whatnot in this thread? If you really want to discuss that, please do it in the OT forum. No disrespect, but it's where debates like that belong, ok?
FifteenHours, you are correct. We can't involve what we believe in in this discussion and yes, it is very open to individual opinions. However, if this thread does actually manage to tie up a loose end(s) in 40k, then I'm happy.
These benign daemons have to be thought about very carefully. I think we have already determined that a single emotion or concept can be both negative and positive, but most obsessions/desires are primarily negative. Some, such as selflessness, can be regarded as positive.
Anyone else got anything against this? Or anything to add?
Selflessness can easily be for a bad reason, sacrificing ones self for another is quite common in 40k by Chaos Cultists to summon daemons and such, it's not always am heroic action.
The Hydra? I remember that from the OLD SCHOOL Inquisitor series back when the squats still existed and the fluff consisted of literally whatever that guy was writing. The Hydra was definitely not a good thing, it was human created and resulted in the death of a world or two. It was not an intelligent independent daemon persay. Least as far as I can recall.
blood reaper wrote:Can anyone name a positive warp entity that isn't utterly evil?
One could make an argument for Saint Sabbat. The Eldar Goddess Isha is a being of compassion, supposedly.
I'm never entirely sure what the Eldar Gods are... same for saints as well...
Some saints appear to be super charged mortals courtesy of the Big E...
The Eldar Gods seem to be an odd mix of psychic manifestations and mortal entities...
Mynameisalie wrote:Implies. There is a heck of a lot of difference between implying something and something being something.
I have checked, and it does not say on Lexicanum, on the 40k wiki, not in the 6th ed rulebook or in the BL that the Warp that contains purely negative emotion. Daemons and the suchalike are created by a God's essence, or form themselves out of emotion. There is nothing against the theory that there is sufficient positive energy to form a benign Warp entity, however, it would be hunted and ultimately devoured by a stronger daemon or a chaos God. If there was a way to protect said benign entities from the stronger, malicious daemons then benign daemons are a real and entirely acceptable possibility.
No offence but people who constantly quote Wiki, Lex and the like anger me.
I've spent years and a fortune actually buying and reading the resorce material.
The only things in the warp that aren't "evil" are species native to the warp...
And they are all completely hostile to anything from the materium.
At best there are neutral entities.
An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Where in all of 40k fiction does it say there are possitive entities? Oh that's right, there isn't. That's why this thread has the title it does.
purplefood wrote:And yet you are taking the absence of it saying there is definitely not a positive warp entity to mean there could be which is a much further jump than ours which is simply a logical inference.
Dark is used to describe it. If they didn't want to describe it was negative they wouldn't use dark...
You have 4 sources that are in favour of my point. Granted, they do not support totally my theory of benign Warp entities, but they still do uphold it.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Hydra? I remember that from the OLD SCHOOL Inquisitor series back when the squats still existed and the fluff consisted of literally whatever that guy was writing. The Hydra was definitely not a good thing, it was human created and resulted in the death of a world or two. It was not an intelligent independent daemon persay. Least as far as I can recall.
Not all warp entities are daemons which is fairly well known...
Mynameisalie wrote:Implies. There is a heck of a lot of difference between implying something and something being something.
I have checked, and it does not say on Lexicanum, on the 40k wiki, not in the 6th ed rulebook or in the BL that the Warp that contains purely negative emotion. Daemons and the suchalike are created by a God's essence, or form themselves out of emotion. There is nothing against the theory that there is sufficient positive energy to form a benign Warp entity, however, it would be hunted and ultimately devoured by a stronger daemon or a chaos God. If there was a way to protect said benign entities from the stronger, malicious daemons then benign daemons are a real and entirely acceptable possibility.
No offence but people who constantly quote Wiki, Lex and the like anger me.
I've spent years and a fortune actually buying and reading the resorce material.
The only things in the warp that aren't "evil" are species native to the warp...
And they are all completely hostile to anything from the materium.
At best there are neutral entities.
An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Where in all of 40k fiction does it say there are possitive entities? Oh that's right, there isn't. That's why this thread has the title it does.
Edited for stupid keyboard...
I am arguing for the point in the title. These sources are what I use to hold my theories together. I do not have the monney to buy rulebooks or such, but a friend of mine did lend me the 6th ed rulebook. It didn't say there was no positive Warp entities. The Eldar Gods are also proof of my point as well. They are benign. Except maybe Khaine, he was quite bloodthirsty.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Hydra? I remember that from the OLD SCHOOL Inquisitor series back when the squats still existed and the fluff consisted of literally whatever that guy was writing. The Hydra was definitely not a good thing, it was human created and resulted in the death of a world or two. It was not an intelligent independent daemon persay. Least as far as I can recall.
Not all warp entities are daemons which is fairly well known...
Exactly. This still means there could be positive Warp entities.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Hydra? I remember that from the OLD SCHOOL Inquisitor series back when the squats still existed and the fluff consisted of literally whatever that guy was writing. The Hydra was definitely not a good thing, it was human created and resulted in the death of a world or two. It was not an intelligent independent daemon persay. Least as far as I can recall.
Not all warp entities are daemons which is fairly well known...
Exactly. This still means there could be positive Warp entities.
And yet none have ever been seen or talked about or even slightly mentioned...
purplefood wrote:The Eldar Gods don't have daemons...
AoK
They are Khaine shards, not his daemons.
Minor detail, you do know that daemons are shards of their respective chaos powers, right?
Yeah but the God in question is still alive and the shards are fully individual with their own thoughts.
The shards are actual parts of the god divided rather than a fully separate being...
I should probably include England and most of Western Europe under that, as well.
Because their reaction is 'Oh my God, people died!" "Oh my god, a nutjob shot up a theater in Colorado! Quick, ban guns!" While everyone else has to deal with 'Oh God, a nutjob has seized power becasue we didn't have guns and is butchering the whole city block by block. Quick, we need guns!"
God, they need a tyrant to seize power just so they can get their heads out of their asses.
I should probably include England and most of Western Europe under that, as well.
Because their reaction is 'Oh my God, people died!" "Oh my god, a nutjob shot up a theater in Colorado! Quick, ban guns!" While everyone else has to deal with 'Oh God, a nutjob has seized power and is butchering the whole city block by block. Quick, we need guns!"
God, they need a tyrant to seize power just so they can get their heads out of their asses.
I should probably include England and most of Western Europe under that, as well.
Because their reaction is 'Oh my God, people died!" "Oh my god, a nutjob shot up a theater in Colorado! Quick, ban guns!" While everyone else has to deal with 'Oh God, a nutjob has seized power becasue we didn't have guns and is butchering the whole city block by block. Quick, we need guns!"
God, they need a tyrant to seize power just so they can get their heads out of their asses.
I don't think you have a great cultural understanding of Britain...
I should probably include England and most of Western Europe under that, as well.
Because their reaction is 'Oh my God, people died!" "Oh my god, a nutjob shot up a theater in Colorado! Quick, ban guns!" While everyone else has to deal with 'Oh God, a nutjob has seized power becasue we didn't have guns and is butchering the whole city block by block. Quick, we need guns!"
God, they need a tyrant to seize power just so they can get their heads out of their asses.
I'm confused here...
What does shootings in America in Tyrants in Africa have to do with the daemons of the warp?
Are you just one of those people that lives in America and hates it? If so... move away and see how fun other countries are. Maybe one of those ones with a Tyrant.
And to answer the new title of the thread.... Yes. There are plenty of non-chaos entities in the warp.
Shall we try to bring this quickly to a close then?
Purp, you have a. 4 sources that support my argument b. people who agree with me for a change and c. proof already there are (or were) benign Warp entities (Eldar Gods).
Mynameisalie wrote:Shall we try to bring this quickly to a close then?
Purp, you have a. 4 sources that support my argument b. people who agree with me for a change and c. proof already there are (or were) benign Warp entities (Eldar Gods).
The Eldar Gods are somewhat different to warp entities, it isn't even really said that they are warp entities.
Mynameisalie wrote:Shall we try to bring this quickly to a close then?
Purp, you have a. 4 sources that support my argument b. people who agree with me for a change and c. proof already there are (or were) benign Warp entities (Eldar Gods).
There are more than just the Eldar gods for reference. There are several species that exist in the warp that are not demons or gods. They simply evolved in that dimention.
What 4 sources? Also the Eldar gods were created by a massive galactic spanning empire of highly potent psychics... That kind of psychic pool isn't applicable to your race given their population... and as BR said they aren't quite warp entities... Incidentally though there are non-daemons in the warp all the ones we have seen are hostile. The enslavers for instance.
I guess I have actually managed to win my point this time. 4 sources. Lexicanum 40k wiki 6th ed rulebook BL Umad, bro? Make that 3, sorry. BL was a mistake, it was somewhere else.
purplefood wrote:What 4 sources?
Also the Eldar gods were created by a massive galactic spanning empire of highly potent psychics...
That kind of psychic pool isn't applicable to your race given their population...
And they weren't even benign.
Khaine was a raging warrior god, who tortured two of the others.
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Mynameisalie wrote:I guess I have actually managed to win my point this time.
4 sources.
Lexicanum
40k wiki
6th ed rulebook
BL Umad, bro?
Your first two are made up of other sources, some of which cancel each other out.
How the six edition?
Blacklibary has twisted fluff on a hundred occasions, never use it as a main source.
Mynameisalie wrote:I guess I have actually managed to win my point this time.
4 sources.
Lexicanum
40k wiki
6th ed rulebook
BL Umad, bro?
BL agrees with you?
In what way?
40k wiki isn't a source and neither is lexicanum.
Where in the 6th ed rulebook does it say that there are benign warp entities apart from saying that there aren't? Much in the same way it doesn't say that the Imperium is secretly ruled by a kabal of spiderlegged green elephants from the 5th dimension...
blood reaper wrote:
So you believe that anyone beyond the west would be mostly fine with 40K's form of morality?
There's a difference between agreeing with their morality and being able to deal with the situation. There's this delusion on 40k boards that modern humans would not be able to survive in the realm of 40k (to a degree they're right, since basic biology, physics, and chemistry do not work the same there, but that's not the point) because it's too hard.
Sadly, I've been to places under the control of the US where 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment'.
Children taken and brainwashed, check. Traditional religion persecuted and people stripped of property for following them, check. Police able to murder you without cause, check. People starving to death because of bureaucratic decisions, check. Rape, hatred, torture, violence? all check.
Unfortunately, we don't have oil anymore, and no one can score political points on one another as they're all equally guilty, so what you do here does not make the news.
blood reaper wrote:
So you believe that anyone beyond the west would be mostly fine with 40K's form of morality?
There's a difference between agreeing with their morality and being able to deal with the situation. There's this delusion on 40k boards that modern humans would not be able to survive in the realm of 40k (to a degree they're right, since basic biology, physics, and chemistry do not work the same there, but that's not the point) because it's too hard.
Sadly, I've been to places under the control of the US where 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment'.
Children taken and brainwashed, check. Traditional religion persecuted and people stripped of property for following them, check. Police able to murder you without cause, check. People starving to death because of bureaucratic decisions, check. Rape, hatred, torture, violence? all check.
Unfortunately, we don't have oil anymore, and no one can score political points on one another as they're all equally guilty, so what you do here does not make the news.
I don't believe many would be able to stand the situation at hand, it's my opinion, and you may have your own.
DeffDred wrote:
If so... move away and see how fun other countries are. Maybe one of those ones with a Tyrant.
No, my home is in the Seneca Nation of Indians. and we have an occupying tyrant. They're called the United States of America.
While I agree that the United States has a nature that at times could be placed in the semi-Tyranny box, the Imperium of Man is described as being a hell hole beyond comparison.
DeffDred wrote:
If so... move away and see how fun other countries are. Maybe one of those ones with a Tyrant.
No, my home is in the Seneca Nation of Indians. and we have an occupying tyrant. They're called the United States of America.
While I agree that the United States has a nature that at times could be placed in the semi-Tyranny box, the Imperium of Man is described as being a hell hole beyond comparison.
I agree to that last part.
No arguments.
The IoM is probably the worst race to be in 40k. They're on the losing end of everything.
blood reaper wrote:
While I agree that the United States has a nature that at times could be placed in the semi-Tyranny box, the Imperium of Man is described as being a hell hole beyond comparison.
Visit some of the nations out west. If you over want to see people without hope, visit someplace like Rosebud, and help them bury the children that die there in government mandated poverty, and tell me about the US governments tyranny or beneficence.
Baron, stop. I know this seems important to you, but stop. This is not the time, nor the place, to be typing that sort of stuff. If you really want to get it out and/or discuss it, please do it in the OT forums, like I have suggested.
blood reaper wrote:
While I agree that the United States has a nature that at times could be placed in the semi-Tyranny box, the Imperium of Man is described as being a hell hole beyond comparison.
Visit some of the nations out west. If you over want to see people without hope, visit someplace like Rosebud, and help them bury the children that die there in government mandated poverty, and tell me about the US governments tyranny.
This isn't for here.
Honestly, I'm here to discuss the topic at hand, not the problems of the world.
Honestly, I'm here to discuss the topic at hand, not the problems of the world.
True enough, I suppose. My point is, however, that in many places modern human beings survive in conditions not that dissimilar to the IoM (minus the rule of cool and magitek stuff).
Honestly, I'm here to discuss the topic at hand, not the problems of the world.
True enough, I suppose. My point is, however, that in many places modern human beings survive in conditions not that dissimilar to the IoM (minus the rule of cool and magitek stuff).
Well obviously...
That's part of how dystopian it is.
Things have been bad for so long they have changed human nature to the point it's nearly unrecognisable...
" or "You really deserve something special... I know! You can have better strength and speed!"
off.
