mattyrm wrote:

Following the thread, it seems like your comments were far more rude than his.

Oh really? Are you serious? People can call others 'child' 'wee man' and 'rude little prick' and that is ok? But saying 'reading comprehension fail' is worse? LOL you can't be serious.

Easily done, you seemed to be bouncing around a alittle, and perhaps that is what caused the issue, because I still cant actually tell if you play with unpainted models or not!

I haven't played in months. If I played now, and I wanted to use my newer army (b/c who wouldn't) half the army is currently primed, the other half is basecoated and a quarter is fully painted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:

Then again Super - I don't play against players with unpainted armies. If you want to use a FLGS/GW store's tables outside of your den, paint your army

I believe that "a" should be a "my" or a "certain" in this sentence, as I've never played at any FLGS that required players to have painted armies to use their tables. If I had been told that, I'd simply stop going to that store and go to one which let me play the game I was spending money on as I wished.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 infinite_array wrote:
So, do I get extra points if I prefer playing against painted miniatures, and so took my friends miniatures and painted them for him, knowing he'd never get around to doing it himself?

Can I be your friend? LOL.

I won't say they'll never be painted, because they will, but it takes me forever...

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:

Then again Super - I don't play against players with unpainted armies. If you want to use a FLGS/GW store's tables outside of your den, paint your army

I believe that "a" should be a "my" or a "certain" in this sentence, as I've never played at any FLGS that required players to have painted armies to use their tables. If I had been told that, I'd simply stop going to that store and go to one which let me play the game I was spending money on as I wished.

I've basically only been to stores with that rule (fairly unspoken) - which is a rule I enjoy.

IMHO - thats another full thread discussion that I've seen numerous times. Stop going to the nearby FLGS? Enjoy your drive/travel/trip somewhere else. Support your local FLGS and follow their rules when playing with toys on their playmats. Fairly basic.

 Auxellion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:

Then again Super - I don't play against players with unpainted armies. If you want to use a FLGS/GW store's tables outside of your den, paint your army

I believe that "a" should be a "my" or a "certain" in this sentence, as I've never played at any FLGS that required players to have painted armies to use their tables. If I had been told that, I'd simply stop going to that store and go to one which let me play the game I was spending money on as I wished.

I've basically only been to stores with that rule (fairly unspoken) - which is a rule I enjoy.

IMHO - thats another full thread discussion that I've seen numerous times. Stop going to the nearby FLGS? Enjoy your drive/travel/trip somewhere else. Support your local FLGS and follow their rules when playing with toys on their playmats. Fairly basic.

Or support one of the stores that allows you to play the game the way you want to. I'm certainly not entitled to playing the game I want in a store that doesn't want me to, but they're also not entitled to my business if they aren't meeting my needs as a customer.

lucasbuffalo
[DCM]
"He Who Spends All His Money on Plastic"



Then I agree - most stores should have "Events only fully painted" (Which is the norm around here). The local GW near me always had this policy so I was used to it. If you spend a fair amount of money at a store - spend it at the store that allows unpainted models/whatever rules you enjoy.

It's an odd thing to arrive at a store and check out the local scene - to find hordes of unpainted Grey/white/black models. It dampens your opinion on the local crowd a fair bit.

Introducing new players to the game with primed black armies/selling the product? I can list stores that cannot boast a single painted army or a showcase to show off painted models as a selling point. I only view painted armies/painting required as a positive rule for a store.

In OP's post - it states they would have a buff on painted units. I actually agree/like this idea quite a bit instead of store-wide banning unpainted models.

 Auxellion wrote:
lucasbuffalo
[DCM]
"He Who Spends All His Money on Plastic"



Then I agree - most stores should have "Events only fully painted" (Which is the norm around here). The local GW near me always had this policy so I was used to it. If you spend a fair amount of money at a store - spend it at the store that allows unpainted models/whatever rules you enjoy.

It's an odd thing to arrive at a store and check out the local scene - to find hordes of unpainted Grey/white/black models. It dampens your opinion on the local crowd a fair bit.

Introducing new players to the game with primed black armies/selling the product? I can list stores that cannot boast a single painted army or a showcase to show off painted models as a selling point. I only view painted armies/painting required as a positive rule for a store.

In OP's post - it states they would have a buff on painted units. I actually agree/like this idea quite a bit instead of store-wide banning unpainted models.

But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

It dampens your opinion on the local crowd a fair bit.

Who's opinion? I tend to think "hey they like to play more than paint" not "they are bad at my hobby and should feel bad."

What will they do If I play LOTR?Ain't no hatred in that game.

Da krimson barun wrote:
What will they do If I play LOTR?Ain't no hatred in that game.

Come on, be realistic

 infinite_array wrote:
So, do I get extra points if I prefer playing against painted miniatures, and so took my friends miniatures and painted them for him, knowing he'd never get around to doing it himself?

Massively, I salute your stoic determination!

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

But that's going to happen anyways; "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to put the miniatures together before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

Is gluing models together unfriendly to new players? Or do you feel players should just use the bases as markers?

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

But that's going to happen anyways; "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to put the miniatures together before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

Is gluing models together unfriendly to new players? Or do you feel players should just use the bases as markers?

A. Plenty of miniatures come in almost-completed forms (HQs, most of the snap-fit starter boxes stuff, etc.)
B. Even non-one piece or non-easy assemble pieces still require a massively smaller time dedication than painting before playing does.

fishy bob wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
What will they do If I play LOTR?Ain't no hatred in that game.

Come on, be realistic

?

Da krimson barun wrote:

fishy bob wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
What will they do If I play LOTR?Ain't no hatred in that game.

Come on, be realistic

?

He's implying that no one plays LOTR.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

But that's going to happen anyways; "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to put the miniatures together before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

Is gluing models together unfriendly to new players? Or do you feel players should just use the bases as markers?

A. Plenty of miniatures come in almost-completed forms (HQs, most of the snap-fit starter boxes stuff, etc.)
B. Even non-one piece or non-easy assemble pieces still require a massively smaller time dedication than painting before playing does.

In your previous post, you said that the only thing preventing a new player from playing with his newly-purchased army was the store owner saying they needed to paint first. It's not true. "Almost-completed" still means they're taking their toys home before they use them in a first game.

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

But that's going to happen anyways; "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to put the miniatures together before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

Is gluing models together unfriendly to new players? Or do you feel players should just use the bases as markers?

A. Plenty of miniatures come in almost-completed forms (HQs, most of the snap-fit starter boxes stuff, etc.)
B. Even non-one piece or non-easy assemble pieces still require a massively smaller time dedication than painting before playing does.

In your previous post, you said that the only thing preventing a new player from playing with his newly-purchased army was the store owner saying they needed to paint first. It's not true. "Almost-completed" still means they're taking their toys home before they use them in a first game.

You know the point he was trying to make. You can buy half a dozen boxes of stuff and easily have it all assembled before coming in again next week, the same usually can't be said of having it all painted.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
But isn't new players it's own issue? "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to also buy these paints and go spend a good chunk of time at home before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

But that's going to happen anyways; "Oh hi, we're glad you just bought a bunch of stuff here after going through our demo! Oh no, sorry, you can't play here yet. You actually need to put the miniatures together before you actually get to play the game you bought. Sorry."

Is gluing models together unfriendly to new players? Or do you feel players should just use the bases as markers?

A. Plenty of miniatures come in almost-completed forms (HQs, most of the snap-fit starter boxes stuff, etc.)
B. Even non-one piece or non-easy assemble pieces still require a massively smaller time dedication than painting before playing does.

In your previous post, you said that the only thing preventing a new player from playing with his newly-purchased army was the store owner saying they needed to paint first. It's not true. "Almost-completed" still means they're taking their toys home before they use them in a first game.

You know the point he was trying to make. You can buy half a dozen boxes of stuff and easily have it all assembled before coming in again next week, the same usually can't be said of having it all painted.

I didn't actually play a game of 40k until I painted my "1500 Ultramarines" back when I started in 4th edition. I spent a month building and painting it first because that was the local GW's rules.

Still have not seen any proof that requiring paint minimums increases a store's sales. We actually have anecdotal evidence that the majority of LGS do not subscribe to that theory in this polling thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420990.page

Currently it shows that 78% of the stores have 75% or less armies that are painted/finished. If fielding only painted armies actually increased business we would not be seeing only 8% of the stores with 75%-100% fully painted models....the numbers should be reversed if truly is the case that demanding fully painted models increases business in a store.

There is nothing wrong in taking pride in how you have painted your army. However, it does not make you a better player or an authority on what it takes for someone else to enjoy the hobby. Each person has a right to determine what level of participation is right for themselves. Store owners also have the right to set whatever policies they want, and their customers will choose to continue/discontinue shopping/playing there based upon those policies.

The only way I can relate it is thru my experiences of playing D&D at GenCon and CWA Con in the early 80's. The majority of people showed up in street clothes, yet there were some who would wear suits of armor, carry weapons, and dress the roles they were playing as it enhanced their RP experience. Those who did not dress up still had a great time and had no trouble suspending disbelief. The amount of people showing up to the tournaments would have been miniscule in comparison if there had been a requirement that all of the participants had to dress up in order to RP and play thru the modules.

I see those who demand paint requirements in the same light as a RP who demands that everyone has to dress up so they can have better immersion and enjoyment. It is more about themselves, and what they think the hobby is about, than the actual gameplay itself. When you deem someone as an unworthy opponent on the basis of their army not being painted, you are well within your rights...yet you are also acting as elitist who thinks they know what is best for hobby.

No one is "demanding" paint requirements.

The OP does not even "demand" painted requirements, it just has a bonus for having painted a unit v. not painting a unit. The rule is not even army wide from what it looks like it just applies to unpainted units.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No one is "demanding" paint requirements.

The OP does not even "demand" painted requirements, it just has a bonus for having painted a unit v. not painting a unit. The rule is not even army wide from what it looks like it just applies to unpainted units.

Yeah exactly, it's merely a slight advantage anyway, and it's only for individual units. As I said on the first page, it's hardly a game breaker.

I don't see anything on that white board presenting itself to be in a GW store. Honestly to me that rule is a "funny" rule and not ment to be takin seriously...anyways who can dictate if you even used that rule?

 Sidstyler wrote:
I'm more enraged that they force you to yell Waaagh! for the roll.

I'm sorry, but you have no soul.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No one is "demanding" paint requirements.

This has been mentioned as the policy at a number of GW and other stores within this thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The OP does not even "demand" painted requirements, it just has a bonus for having painted a unit v. not painting a unit. The rule is not even army wide from what it looks like it just applies to unpainted units.

So then it is demanded assuming you want to play a fair game.

If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

 Redbeard wrote:

No reanimation protocols unless you robot dance (or sing Mr Roboto)

And if you know at least 3 other Styx songs all your attacks get rending and are AP1

Dolgan wrote:
Still have not seen any proof that requiring paint minimums increases a store's sales. We actually have anecdotal evidence that the majority of LGS do not subscribe to that theory in this polling thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420990.page

Currently it shows that 78% of the stores have 75% or less armies that are painted/finished. If fielding only painted armies actually increased business we would not be seeing only 8% of the stores with 75%-100% fully painted models....the numbers should be reversed if truly is the case that demanding fully painted models increases business in a store.

Out of a sampling of 1400 Dakka posters who saw the poll and bothered to respond. You're right, that's very anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

Anecdotal evidence, while not perfect, is better than baseless claims with no supporting evidence. There has been absolutely zero evidence posted to support the claim that having only painted armies playing in a store increases sales and/or foot traffic...only biased opinions by those who think everyone should conform to what their vision of 40k is.

My bias, if you can call accepting games against unpainted armies when yours are painted a bias, is that I only play the game. Don't care about the lore, how long it has existed, or the non-essential fluff that does not pertain to the actual gameplay/rules. It is not necessary to play the game. It is great if you want to have a 500pg background on your army and paint it to the same specs as described in the lore. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to have that level of dedication, or expect them to enjoy the entire "hobby" around the 40K game, just because you do.

Dolgan wrote:
Anecdotal evidence, while not perfect, is better than baseless claims with no supporting evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is baseless claims with no supporting evidence. It's purely based on someones claims with nothing to back it up. Using a lot of anecdotal evidence doesn't change this, especially when the sample size is so small and there's no data, in this case, of concentration per store.

The survey is not anectodal evicence then, since there are actual answers to the survey to back it up.

My personal experiences are also not anectodal evidence then, since I can personally back them up.

Unless we have different definitions of anectodal evidence.

Anectodal evidence may be more biased because of the small sample size, but it is better than no evidence and not as good as a larger sample size with better support.

Hold up, they want it family friendly in there and maintains a positive attitude? That is some major BS. They can't stop me if I want to make it rain up in that shop. So I can play with plastic toy models but can't play with real models? The humanity.

Just kidding, my wife would not allow me to participate in that hobby. I think the rule is you can window shop but you can't try it on.

From a marketing standpoint there is 100% scientifically proven and universally accepted PROOF that colourfull imagery is more effective in advertising. In the grey versus painted argument its pretty clear that a painted army IS better advertising.

Here is a good article on how colours affect people moods and perceptions:

The Science of Colours in Marketing.

Note how women HATE GREY. I am looking at all you guys with unpainted armies. Its your fault they don't come in and talk to us. Or play warhammer with us. >:/

NickOnwezen wrote:

Note how women HATE GREY. I am looking at all you guys with unpainted armies. Its your fault they don't come in and talk to us. Or play warhammer with us. >:/

Wow! It just occurred to me now!

No wonder why all these women have been approaching me after I finished painting my British for FoW.

 -Loki- wrote:

Dolgan wrote:
Still have not seen any proof that requiring paint minimums increases a store's sales. We actually have anecdotal evidence that the majority of LGS do not subscribe to that theory in this polling thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420990.page

Currently it shows that 78% of the stores have 75% or less armies that are painted/finished. If fielding only painted armies actually increased business we would not be seeing only 8% of the stores with 75%-100% fully painted models....the numbers should be reversed if truly is the case that demanding fully painted models increases business in a store.

Out of a sampling of 1400 Dakka posters who saw the poll and bothered to respond. You're right, that's very anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

What's the margin of error on said poll? Did you also state it's not a scientific poll? Sheesh!

Personally, I got into 40k because of the painted minis I saw. That drew me to the game. It wasn't game mechanics or anything else. I was big into Magic: The Gathering and the painted models, especially the Eldar striking scorpions and swooping hawks. Those models sold me on the game to begin with. The shop let me play a couple of games with their Dark Angels and I read up on who they were and was hooked. Sold my cards to play Dark Angels. Then I started playing Hordes because the shop had a bunch of painted up titans. That sold me on that game too. You can say what you want about painted versus non painted but there are a lot of people who get into the game because of the painted models. I did. I know the shops I frequent don't have a painted army rule but they frown on you for not trying. You have 1 month from when you buy a model to when they bust your chops about priming and base coating your models. You also get to participate in their events for a couple bucks less ($1 or a free drink or something small like that) because they said it helps them attract more players. More players means more diversity, more diversity means more fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:

Then again Super - I don't play against players with unpainted armies. If you want to use a FLGS/GW store's tables outside of your den, paint your army

I believe that "a" should be a "my" or a "certain" in this sentence, as I've never played at any FLGS that required players to have painted armies to use their tables. If I had been told that, I'd simply stop going to that store and go to one which let me play the game I was spending money on as I wished.

I've basically only been to stores with that rule (fairly unspoken) - which is a rule I enjoy.

IMHO - thats another full thread discussion that I've seen numerous times. Stop going to the nearby FLGS? Enjoy your drive/travel/trip somewhere else. Support your local FLGS and follow their rules when playing with toys on their playmats. Fairly basic.

Or support one of the stores that allows you to play the game the way you want to. I'm certainly not entitled to playing the game I want in a store that doesn't want me to, but they're also not entitled to my business if they aren't meeting my needs as a customer.

Oh I hear you. As a customer, I have high standards. If they don't treat me the way I expect to be treated, I will never shop there again. I'm lucky in that we have 5 or 6 shops within a thirty minute drive. I can't believe this one shop let some jerk play an unprinted marine army in one of our local tournaments. I mean they had bolsters and chainswords and when they got to my line I found out they weren't assault squads but in fact grey knights. Heck, I found the army was a crimson fist army with grey knights as allies. Nothing was painted and most didn't have arms either. Heck some were just legs on a base. I was pissed because the shop didn't want to tell the guy to pound sand. This wasn't a new player, he wasn't using a new army and has in fact owned the army for more than a year. He was just too lazy to build it all. He admitted it and stood by the shops policy that the models don't have to be painted and complained loudly. My policy is that I only play with minis that are painted or at worst, base coated with a wash and some initial high lighting... Then again the hobby aspect is just as important to me. I won't play at shops that don't push the hobby aspect too. I will help you paint your models, show you how to get decent results quickly, how to dip models, base them, etc. if you can't buy a can of army builder primer, put some basic colors on the model, and then dip it - you're just lazy. I'm married, work full time (about 45 hours a week), am studying 20 hours a week for licensure exams, volunteer time at habitat for humanity on my Saturday mornings, church on Sundays, and can still manage to get a couple of games in every month and paint 4-6 units a quarter (an army every 6 - 12 months). You just have to prioritize, decide what you want to do, and set goals. Everyone can paint an army, it takes time and dedication.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

The rule gives a motivation for people to quit with the excuses and make some time to actually paint some models.

You'll notice how it does not say "Army must be painted to a Golden Daemon standard". If you cannot pull off a 3 color minimum with the prevalence of colored primers and other things which make a 3 color minimum a joke--I do not know what to tell you.

It is worth noting as well that commonly when you see rules like this, it is targeted at a single player who is a toolbag to others and continually brings in unpainted FOTM armies without ever spending a dime in the shop.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

The point is to make the game unfair, to encourage people to paint their models. Would you prefer a straight ban on unpainted models?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

The rule gives a motivation for people to quit with the excuses and make some time to actually paint some models.

You'll notice how it does not say "Army must be painted to a Golden Daemon standard". If you cannot pull off a 3 color minimum with the prevalence of colored primers and other things which make a 3 color minimum a joke--I do not know what to tell you.

It is worth noting as well that commonly when you see rules like this, it is targeted at a single player who is a toolbag to others and continually brings in unpainted FOTM armies without ever spending a dime in the shop.

There is a difference between "can" and "want to".

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

The point is to make the game unfair, to encourage people to paint their models. Would you prefer a straight ban on unpainted models?

I'd prefer that once a person spends their money to play a game, they get to play the game.
I play a lot of different games and I never see this sort of "play my way or you're wrong attitude" and it's just crazy to me. I've never see a store tell magic players to ship out for not using sleeves, or playing the wrong formats with older cards in casual games, etc. I've never seen board gamers asked to leave or be somehow penalized for not painting the unpainted pieces in their board game or asked to leave for a house rule. I don't understand why, in this specific Hobby/Game/Religion to some, that if a person buys the game they're wrong/bad/to blame/should be penalized for wanting to play that game in the way that they see fit.
I mean, it's pretty simple, if you hate unpainted armies then don't play against people who have them. Why is that difficult? Either you're A. Ok with unpainted, or B. Aren't. Why is there a C. "I'm not ok with it, but this gives me an unfair advantage so now it's cool."

It probably has something to do with the rampant obnoxious entitlement attitude that many of the "unpainted player" crowd has when it comes to organized play.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It probably has something to do with the rampant obnoxious entitlement attitude that many of the "unpainted player" crowd has when it comes to organized play.

Entitlements like what? I'm curious.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It probably has something to do with the rampant obnoxious entitlement attitude that many of the "unpainted player" crowd has when it comes to organized play.

Entitlements like what? I'm curious.

One of the common arguments is that there should be no painting score as part of a tournament because it is "unfair"

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models

Grey rights!

lucasbuffalo wrote:
I'd prefer that once a person spends their money to play a game, they get to play the game.
I play a lot of different games and I never see this sort of "play my way or you're wrong attitude" and it's just crazy to me. I've never see a store tell magic players to ship out for not using sleeves, or playing the wrong formats with older cards in casual games, etc. I've never seen board gamers asked to leave or be somehow penalized for not painting the unpainted pieces in their board game or asked to leave for a house rule. I don't understand why, in this specific Hobby/Game/Religion to some, that if a person buys the game they're wrong/bad/to blame/should be penalized for wanting to play that game in the way that they see fit.
I mean, it's pretty simple, if you hate unpainted armies then don't play against people who have them. Why is that difficult? Either you're A. Ok with unpainted, or B. Aren't. Why is there a C. "I'm not ok with it, but this gives me an unfair advantage so now it's cool."

Let us also remember, that a Games Workshop Store is just that...a store. Their ultimate goal is to sell stuff to people. They feel that the best way to do that is to encourage painted armies to be used in their store. The reason GW allows people to play in their stores is to get people interested enough to come in and find out what is going on around these tables with these brightly colored toy soldiers.

Ultimately, if you don't like the policy, you have three choices; 1. Suck it up and play at the disadvantage, 2. Get off your tail and paint your models or find someone to do it for you, 3. Play at home.

 d-usa wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
No reason the players at the store can't just quietly ignore that rule...

~Tim?

I don't know if the GW guy will be breathing over your shoulder and "reminding" you about that rule everytime you play. I figured if I'm the guy with the painted army I would remind the unpainted guy about it since it benefits me .

What about the kids who cant paint ... we were all there at some point.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

I'd prefer that once a person spends their money to play a game, they get to play the game.

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

I play a lot of different games and I never see this sort of "play my way or you're wrong attitude" and it's just crazy to me. I've never see a store tell magic players to ship out for not using sleeves, or playing the wrong formats with older cards in casual games, etc. I've never seen board gamers asked to leave or be somehow penalized for not painting the unpainted pieces in their board game or asked to leave for a house rule. I don't understand why, in this specific Hobby/Game/Religion to some, that if a person buys the game they're wrong/bad/to blame/should be penalized for wanting to play that game in the way that they see fit.

Those are completely non equivalent and not part of the relevant games. No one is going to stop someone playing 40k using old minis, but you can't use a non current dex. Painting pieces is not part of board games. I have never seen someone turn up to an MTG tournament and get upset because some cards are banned. Older cards are still MTG cars. Protective sleeves are not in any way equivalent to painting.

There are plenty of places you will get this treatment. Turn up to an archery club on a record day without whites/greens and you will be told you can't shoot. Historical war gaming? You had better make sure not only are your minis painted, but that they are painted the correct colours. Want to play golf? You had better dress appropriately for that club. There are many many more rules of etiquette, both written and unwritten, across many games and sports.

I mean, it's pretty simple, if you hate unpainted armies then don't play against people who have them. Why is that difficult? Either you're A. Ok with unpainted, or B. Aren't. Why is there a C. "I'm not ok with it, but this gives me an unfair advantage so now it's cool."

It's pretty simple here too. Painted minis are part of the game. If you don't like the rules one place has brought in because they are in camp A then you don't have to play there. Play somewhere else. Don't want to play people who have painted armys and enforce this rule? don't play against them. Play against other people without unpainted armys. It's not about being ok because you have an advantage. Its a little thing to encourage people to bring painted forces. I think everyone who is pro painted forces would rather play against a fully painted force than have a little advantage. You (and the others with the same attitude) are expecting the same as you are accusing others of. To play your way. To accept unpainted minis. People who are against them are just trying to encourage painting without an outright ban, trying to meet in the middle.

 infinite_array wrote:

NickOnwezen wrote:

Note how women HATE GREY. I am looking at all you guys with unpainted armies. Its your fault they don't come in and talk to us. Or play warhammer with us. >:/

Wow! It just occurred to me now!

No wonder why all these women have been approaching me after I finished painting my British for FoW.

AND choosing Gandalf the GREY as your profile picture. You obviously like to hobble yourself.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

...the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models.... You can not deny that fact.

Untrue.

Firstly, simply acknowledge that painted models are better. All the models we're discussing are designed to be painted.

That sense of entitlement, "my unpainted army is as good as your painted one" is inappropriate, because your unpainted army is simply not as good as a painted one.

It's not as good, because you haven't put in the effort. It's nothing to do with discrimination, as you imply, because discrimination is preference based on criteria humans can't control, ie their race or colour. In this context, we're talking about preferring people who make an effort, over those who don't make an effort.

The GW store manager is doing this, not to penalise those who don't make an effort, but to encourage them - because this makes for a more immersive experience, which will be more fun for everybody. It's a pretty good example of a nudging, which is seen as an effective way of encouraging behavour which benefits individuals, and groups.

 Miss Dee wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
No reason the players at the store can't just quietly ignore that rule...

~Tim?

I don't know if the GW guy will be breathing over your shoulder and "reminding" you about that rule everytime you play. I figured if I'm the guy with the painted army I would remind the unpainted guy about it since it benefits me .

What about the kids who cant paint ... we were all there at some point.

The kids should be learning how to paint, they won't get better giving up.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

...the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models.... You can not deny that fact.

Untrue.

Firstly, simply acknowledge that painted models are better. All the models we're discussing are designed to be painted.

That sense of entitlement, "my unpainted army is as good as your painted one" is inappropriate, because your unpainted army is simply not as good as a painted one.

It's not as good, because you haven't put in the effort. It's nothing to do with discrimination, as you imply, because discrimination is preference based on criteria humans can't control, ie their race or colour. In this context, we're talking about preferring people who make an effort, over those who don't make an effort.

The GW store manager is doing this, not to penalise those who don't make an effort, but to encourage them - because this makes for a more immersive experience, which will be more fun for everybody. It's a pretty good example of a nudging, which is seen as an effective way of encouraging behavour which benefits individuals, and groups.

people should really stop using entitlement it doesn't help the discussion at all and shows a lot of belittlement.

But by what yo have said it is discrimination as it simply assumes that the reason is
Lack of effort, when there can be many reasons, and even in some cases be the opposite.
For a store to take this rule it shows little thought or a joke at some custermers expense in my eyes, and it's not at all a good example of nudging.
Not a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of people it seems.

Apple fox wrote:
people should really stop using entitlement it doesn't help the discussion at all and shows a lot of belittlement.

People should stop feeling entitled as it doesn't help the discussion and shows a lot of beligerance

But by what yo have said it is discrimination as it simply assumes that the reason is Lack of effort, when there can be many reasons, and even in some cases be the opposite.

Erm... no. How can it ever be more effort not to paint than to paint (unless you have some kind of painting addiction but terrorists have taken your family hostage and will kill them if you pick up a paint brush, obviously )?

For a store to take this rule it shows little thought or a joke at some custermers expense in my eyes, and it's not at all a good example of nudging.

It is an excellent example of nudging. Nowhere does it say that you will be forced to play this rule. Most people who have commented on it here would probably let it slide unless you have demonstrated some kind of "I'm never going to paint these models so screw you" kind of attitude.

Not a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of people it seems.

And again we come back to a sense of entitlement, ignoring what is a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of other people.

Apple fox wrote:
............ people should really stop using entitlement it doesn't help the discussion at all and shows a lot of belittlement.

But by what yo have said it is discrimination as it simply assumes that the reason is
Lack of effort, when there can be many reasons, and even in some cases be the opposite.
For a store to take this rule it shows little thought or a joke at some custermers expense in my eyes, and it's not at all a good example of nudging.
Not a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of people it seems.

The flip side of that is the Elitism tag which people will use to excuse their own behaviours while denigrating others.

Of course its discrimination, we discriminate when we choose red jelly over yellow jelly (why you would is beyond be, yellow jelly rocks my world!). That's not to say we should get upset about it just because there are types of discrimination that society sees as unacceptable.

The simple fact is that if you choose to enter an environment where painting is preferred, we shouldn't be surprised (much less insulted) when it is encouraged.

Anecdotally I've seen people complain that clubs are cliquey because no one talked to them, ignoring that they have to bring something to the table and make themselves known to get acknowledged and not be the proverbial wall flower.

I prefer painted armies and it makes for wargaming small talk topic #1 - nice army dood, is that Yellow? Yellow is impossible to paint, how did you do that?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miss Dee wrote:
what gw put is bulling

If you mean bullying then no it isn't, don't be silly.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
people should really stop using entitlement it doesn't help the discussion at all and shows a lot of belittlement.

People should stop feeling entitled as it doesn't help the discussion and shows a lot of beligerance

But by what yo have said it is discrimination as it simply assumes that the reason is Lack of effort, when there can be many reasons, and even in some cases be the opposite.

Erm... no. How can it ever be more effort not to paint than to paint (unless you have some kind of painting addiction but terrorists have taken your family hostage and will kill them if you pick up a paint brush, obviously )?

For a store to take this rule it shows little thought or a joke at some custermers expense in my eyes, and it's not at all a good example of nudging.

It is an excellent example of nudging. Nowhere does it say that you will be forced to play this rule. Most people who have commented on it here would probably let it slide unless you have demonstrated some kind of "I'm never going to paint these models so screw you" kind of attitude.

Not a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of people it seems.

And again we come back to a sense of entitlement, ignoring what is a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of other people.

I think you missed my point from my first line, but that's ok.
Secondly I put a lot of effort into painting, as others do around me. Not having stuff done is not from lack of effort from anyone at my club or store as far as I could tell.
It isn't a excellent example of nudging, it's borderline insulting for a store to put this up.
Also again entailment is used, People can feel free to play who they please, but a store should be far more thoughtful in how it handles this situation.

Of corse what allways happens is that as the thread gets longer it gets harder to keep up discussion:(

Apple fox wrote:
I think you missed my point from my first line, but that's ok.

No, I got your point, I was being facetious.

Secondly I put a lot of effort into painting, as others do around me. Not having stuff done is not from lack of effort from anyone at my club or store as far as I could tell.

I don't dispute that, however that is not what you said in the post that I was responding to. I don't think anyone has any problem with someone slowly getting stuff painted up. I'm a slow painter myself so I know that it can take a long time to get something painted.

However, the attitude of "well, I'd rather game than paint" doesn't always cut it - it is always easier to find 10, 20, 30, etc minutes to get a bit of paint on some models than it is to find 2, 3, 4, etc hours to play a game or two.

It isn't a excellent example of nudging, it's borderline insulting for a store to put this up.

Sure, in the same way that it is "insulting" if the council put up a "clean up after your dog" sign in the park rather than banning dogs entirely. How very dare they say that I should have to clean up after my dog if I want to use their land to walk him?!?! Are they saying that people do do clean up after their dogs are somehow better than me?!?! Well, I'm never going to go to that park again! I'm going to go to one where you can't even see the grass due to the dog crap!

Seriously, get some perspective and stop looking for ways to be insulted.

Also again entailment is used, People can feel free to play who they please, but a store should be far more thoughtful in how it handles this situation.

Yeah, they should just ban them... oh, wait! That would hurt their fragile little feelings too! Perhaps if the store provides paints, painting space, brushes, classes, dedicated painting time, people to help paint for free... oh, wait, how insulting saying you are too poor to afford paints! And how can you possibly find time to get into the store and paint? Why have they covered over some of the gaming tables so people can paint? Don't they know you want to play a game?

 notprop wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
............ people should really stop using entitlement it doesn't help the discussion at all and shows a lot of belittlement.

But by what yo have said it is discrimination as it simply assumes that the reason is
Lack of effort, when there can be many reasons, and even in some cases be the opposite.
For a store to take this rule it shows little thought or a joke at some custermers expense in my eyes, and it's not at all a good example of nudging.
Not a fun and encouraging environment for a lot of people it seems.

The flip side of that is the Elitism tag which people will use to excuse their own behaviours while denigrating others.

Of course its discrimination, we discriminate when we choose red jelly over yellow jelly (why you would is beyond be, yellow jelly rocks my world!). That's not to say we should get upset about it just because there are types of discrimination that society sees as unacceptable.

The simple fact is that if you choose to enter an environment where painting is preferred, we shouldn't be surprised (much less insulted) when it is encouraged.

Anecdotally I've seen people complain that clubs are cliquey because no one talked to them, ignoring that they have to bring something to the table and make themselves known to get acknowledged and not be the proverbial wall flower.

I prefer painted armies and it makes for wargaming small talk topic #1 - nice army dood, is that Yellow? Yellow is impossible to paint, how did you do that?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miss Dee wrote:
what gw put is bulling

If you mean bullying then no it isn't, don't be silly.

sadly both tags get said a lot :( and it realy makes it tough I find to discuss some topics.
I find a lot of people in the community are painted preferred, I would love to if possible. It's just not possible and I have experience people first hand being rather nasty in some environments within the community for the painting issue.(I think some people in this thread show that)
The rule as it is written I just can't see as positive in the end, it maybe push painting more. But I will always wonder at what cost.

I do realy want to have my army done, and I love seeing all the painted miniatures but shouldn't that not be the reward, not a rule advantage in a game. Joke or not, there is more than one little issue I take with it.

 Steve steveson wrote:
[qu
. No one is going to stop someone playing 40k using old minis, but you can't use a non current dex...
... I have never seen someone turn up to an MTG tournament and get upset because some cards are banned...

...There are plenty of places you will get this treatment. Turn up to an archery club on a record day without whites/greens and you will be told you can't shoot. Historical war gaming? You had better make sure not only are your minis painted, but that they are painted the correct colours. Want to play golf? You had better dress appropriately for that club. There are many many more rules of etiquette, both written and unwritten, across many games and sports.

Excellent examples. Nearly every hobby has it's standards by which the majority of the community abides. What we have here in 40k is a case of shifting demographics representing groups of players who don't agree with previously established standards. It is true that standards to change over time, but only if the community agrees and allows it to happen.

Maybe it's a loosing battle (a melodramatic term, but there it is) and maybe the standards have already changed. However, I will still stand on the side of folks who would prefer to keep painting as a part of wargaming.

Arguments like "I'm a busy guy", "I don't have time", "I bought them and should be allowed to play" and the ever popular "I enjoy the hobby in my own way" or "Don't tell me how to play" will get you exactly zero sympathy in the examples above, so why should it be any different in this particular subset of popular level sci-fi and fantasy wargames?

 Miss Dee wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
No reason the players at the store can't just quietly ignore that rule...

~Tim?

I don't know if the GW guy will be breathing over your shoulder and "reminding" you about that rule everytime you play. I figured if I'm the guy with the painted army I would remind the unpainted guy about it since it benefits me .

What about the kids who cant paint ... we were all there at some point.

Then their models are painted, but don't look particularly good. Yes, we were all there at one point.

Personally, I just did a little painting on my Tervigon. It's the biggest model I've ever tackled, and I'm nowhere near finished. I also paint to tabletop standard - my Tyranids are red, with a wash, then layering to bring the red back up. No highlighting. The carapace is black, with a 2-3 colour feathered highlight. It's not going to win awards, but as an army on the table looks a far sight more interesting than if it was grey plastic, and I know my opponents appreciate not facing a sea of grey. In fact, my friends and I's armies tend to be the least finished armies in the store on average. There's the odd only primed army, which tends to be because it's a new army, or there's fully painted armies. We have a tendency to paint slowly, and game with the army as it gets painted.

Personally I dont know why anyone would play with unpainted figures.

May as well use lumps of grey plastic... Oh wait...

Thankfully, playing Historicals (apart from those dubious FOW types) you dont have to deal with it as playing with unpainted models never seems to happen. Its an unwritten rule you dont bring it if it aint painted.

So, if its Elitist to only play with painted models on good looking terrain and have a great time, then Im proud to be Elitist.

Of course the flip side with our club is we have so many armies done, from so many members, that new players can play with other stuff till their stuff is completed or add in units as they are ready.

Not having stuff by no means excludes them from gaming at all.

Thats the point of a good, close-knit club. We all help and support each other.

 Eilif wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
[qu
. No one is going to stop someone playing 40k using old minis, but you can't use a non current dex...
... I have never seen someone turn up to an MTG tournament and get upset because some cards are banned...

...There are plenty of places you will get this treatment. Turn up to an archery club on a record day without whites/greens and you will be told you can't shoot. Historical war gaming? You had better make sure not only are your minis painted, but that they are painted the correct colours. Want to play golf? You had better dress appropriately for that club. There are many many more rules of etiquette, both written and unwritten, across many games and sports.

Excellent examples. Nearly every hobby has it's standards by which the majority of the community abides. What we have here in 40k is a case of shifting demographics representing groups of players who don't agree with previously established standards. It is true that standards to change over time, but only if the community agrees and allows it to happen.

Maybe it's a loosing battle (a melodramatic term, but there it is) and maybe the standards have already changed. However, I will still stand on the side of folks who would prefer to keep painting as a part of wargaming.

Arguments like "I'm a busy guy", "I don't have time", "I bought them and should be allowed to play" and the ever popular "I enjoy the hobby in my own way" or "Don't tell me how to play" will get you exactly zero sympathy in the examples above, so why should it be any different in this particular subset of popular level sci-fi and fantasy wargames?

Both good posts.

I appreciate this is not what was meant by Eilif but reading his post and ruminating on the issue (and thanks to apple fox for a differing PoV in PM) there is some need to alter terminology I think. The use of 'standards' here is perhaps misleading or divisive (I've done this also in this thread I think). I don't think I or anyone has an issue with any particular standard of painting, just that the effort is made (and therefore the convention is followed).

True there are kids/TFGs that are want to mock peoples efforts so you might not feel you want to open yourself to that ridicule, however the vast majority of gamers are appreciative of a painted army whether is Golden Demon quality, tabletop quality or my own rushed efforts and encouraging other to follow this is to be encourage I think.

As I say I think this sign is an attempt that this through gameplay, one that I welcome.

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

There are people straight up in this thread that is telling people they should not play at all if they don't paint, and that stores should outright ban them otherwise.

 Miss Dee wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
No reason the players at the store can't just quietly ignore that rule...

~Tim?

I don't know if the GW guy will be breathing over your shoulder and "reminding" you about that rule everytime you play. I figured if I'm the guy with the painted army I would remind the unpainted guy about it since it benefits me .

What about the kids who cant paint ... we were all there at some point.

Yes, that's true - but isn't it all the more reason to start painting? It may be a platitude, but practice does make perfect - and the kids who can't paint can't expect to level up to Master Painter if they only wait long enough.


It might be tricky for FLGS pickup games, but when my friends and I started we didn't simply buy an entire army in one go - even in the early nineties a full 1500+ point army meant dropping quite a lot of cash on... well, not much material.
In our first couple of games we used little more than one squad and a character model (which admittedly worked better in RT oder 2nd ed), and it was pretty satisfactory to be able to slowly add another unit to your army.

OTOH, it is *really* unsatisfactory to have that pretty newly-painted unit you were waiting to put on the table shot to pieces in turn 1, but them's the breaks.

It is completely fine if you don't like it paint your army. like my friend threatened to do his Prime black,1 red stripe 1 blue stripe. on each and every model.

As to people who can't paint you only learn through trying.

Does anyone think it funny that people are glossing over the fact that this sign its a RELAXATION of the rules according to quite a few people. As I understand it, It used to be no paint no game at GW. So they ALREADY turned down the paint rules. So to the people saying you would stop going to stores that implement these rules, Wouldn't you already not BE at this store to begin with?

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

 Todosi wrote:

Ultimately, if you don't like the policy, you have three choices; 1. Suck it up and play at the disadvantage, 2. Get off your tail and paint your models or find someone to do it for you, 3. Play at home.[/color]

4. Play at a store where I can actually play the game as a I choose.
I've already stated that A. I have a number of painted armies, and B. That I play at a variety of FLGS where there is no "paint or leave" motto. But hey, thanks for restating my own statements "at" me with an attempt to lecture.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

But you haven't really eaten yet have you? It's more of them preparing a nice meal then telling you that you have to take it to go really.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

But you haven't really eaten yet have you? It's more of them preparing a nice meal then telling you that you have to take it to go really.

I think its more - as soon as we're not getting any more money off you, please leave. You never ask someone to leave with money in their hand, only when its all in yours
So you'd get to eat the meal first

But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

The store near me shuts later on Thursday nights, why? Because people work a lot and don't have much time. It's kind of bad to be biased to those who have a lot of time on their hands and allow a 7 year old to re-roll wounds in CC. Though the Waaaaghhh rules seem like some fun it should be optional imho.

 notprop wrote:
But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

Never been asked to leave a restaurant before. I've heard of this but never seen it. Probably because when I do eat out it's usually mom and pop places

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

I would say its more like paying for a meal and then being asked to leave because you are eating it with your hands. Fine in McD's, fine in the middle east, fine with a pizza. Not so fine in a French restaurant. They would not accept "its my food, i can eat how i want" Context and etiquette are vital and unwritten rules.

I don't get the equivalence anyway. You claim that you have the right to use your minis as you wish then claim the store can have whatever rules they like. I don't think anyone is saying you can't have to paint your minis. People are saying that if you are gong to play in a public space don't be surprised when people expect them to be painted. The point about entitlement is the expectation that you are entitled to play with I painted minis in a store just because you have paid for them. That is the sense of entitlement we are talking about.

Paint. Don't paint. I don't think anyone gives a dam. What the pro painted people are saying is they want to see painting encouraged in public gaming and in stores. For paint before play to become the norm in public gaming again. This is nothing like what you are saying.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

"You paid for that food, now you want to eat it? God, you're soooo entitled."
If you pay with your money for something, you should get to use that something as you choose. This store has the right to post this rule, as do I and any other player who doesn't take their hobby too seriously too play somewhere else.

'You've finished your meal don't moan if they want you to leave when the cheque is settled' would probably be a more apt food based simile.

I would say its more like paying for a meal and then being asked to leave because you are eating it with your hands. Fine in McD's, fine in the middle east, fine with a pizza. Not so fine in a French restaurant. They would not accept "its my food, i can eat how i want" Context and etiquette are vital and unwritten rules.

I don't get the equivalence anyway. You claim that you have the right to use your minis as you wish then claim the store can have whatever rules they like. I don't think anyone is saying you can't have to paint your minis. People are saying that if you are gong to play in a public space don't be surprised when people expect them to be painted. The point about entitlement is the expectation that you are entitled to play with I painted minis in a store just because you have paid for them. That is the sense of entitlement we are talking about.

Paint. Don't paint. I don't think anyone gives a dam. What the pro painted people are saying is they want to see painting encouraged in public gaming and in stores. For paint before play to become the norm in public gaming again. This is nothing like what you are saying.

Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 notprop wrote:
But a restaurant will shoo you out as soon as they want the table.

Never been asked to leave a restaurant before. I've heard of this but never seen it. Probably because when I do eat out it's usually mom and pop places

It is universally rude to 'occupy' a table for longer than your meal. Many restaurants have posted 'sitting times' which are only enforced when needed. Also ones with heavy resurvations. A sitting time is usually '2 hours' so that is very generous for reservations as well as allowing people time to enjoy.

Besides being rude to the restaurant, it is rude to your server. If you occupy a table for 6 hours, they missed 3-4 'turnovers' on your table, and unless you are racking up a bill, your TIP on one bill for 5-6 hours is a slap in the face to your wait staff. This is when a server will have a manager ask you to leave.

I usually ask permission if I know it might be an issue then multiply the TIP for every 2 hours I stay there. So if I am there for 6 hours with back to back football games, they may get a 50-60% tip, and they appreciate it as a table which doesn't need attention but doesn't screw them is a welcome site to a server.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That. That right there is the sense of entitlement. "I paid for my minis so I am entitled to play." The thing is, noone is saying you should not play, just that it would be preferable that you paint your minis. It's always the unpainted Croydon who get there knickers in a twist over being told they should paint. The painted crowd almost always say "we would rather you paint".

There are people straight up in this thread that is telling people they should not play at all if they don't paint, and that stores should outright ban them otherwise.

No. No one is saying that. They are talking in context of the thread... About gaming in a public space. I don't think anyone is saying "don't play anywhere ever with Unpainted minis. I know what you do in your bedroom!!! "

Context is vital here.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Yeah its a ridiculous argument, frankly I'm stunned that the thread has dragged on this long.

The vast majority of people clearly don't have an issue with the whole thing, its a playful rule to give a minor incentive to crack on with an integral part of the wider hobby (painting) and would probably make the game a little more interesting if you both took a couple of unpainted units.

And I'm not an avid painter, I just can't believe how many proper whinging fethers frequent the boards. A small rule meant to be taken in good spirit, and you would think that the manager had been sniffing solvents and frottering himself against the back of a child's skull when he was browsing a codex.

As always, just stick with my rule. Namely, the people that drip endlessly and boo-hoo about everyone and everything, and like throwing the word "entitled" around, are likely the entitled whiny fethers in the first place.

Paint your models, don't paint your models, but please, don't bore the tits off me whinging about such a miniscule issue. I mean, feth me, theres a war on, everyone is in the poor-house, Africa is fethed and Egypts on fire, and we have this level of outrage over such a tiny fething issue?

I'm amazed that people think that those that persue their hobby in the manner that it is suppossed to be done, are elitist. Miniatures are made to be painted.

They must get very angsty against golfers who use proper golf balls.

When I was a GW Manager no unpainted figures were allowed in games. As it should be. No one had a problem with it back then and it encouraged painting.

I think the problem is people want everything now and can't wait.

Wargaming is not, and never has been a hobby of instant gratification. You want that, buy a computer game or pre-painted games. Its a hobby to be savoured and enjoyed. One that rewards what you put in.

Either that or those that don't paint are just lazy. That should set the cat among the pigeons...

To argue that those who undertake the hobby in its stated 'correct' form are elitist is a bit daft really. Makes it all sound like excuses... If you want to play with stuff that is all the same bland colour, go for it. Just don't expect a venue marketing the game to like it, as they showcase the entire hobby, and don't expect those who do invest the time to want to play you.

Big P wrote:
I'm amazed that people think that those that persue their hobby in the manner that it is suppossed to be done, are elitist. Miniatures are made to be painted.

They must get very angsty against golfers who use proper golf balls.

When I was a GW Manager no unpainted figures were allowed in games. As it should be. No one had a problem with it back then and it encouraged painting.

I think the problem is people want everything now and can't wait.

Wargaming is not, and never has been a hobby of instant gratification. You want that, buy a computer game or pre-painted games. Its a hobby to be savoured and enjoyed. One that rewards what you put in.

Either that or those that don't paint are just lazy. That should set the cat among the pigeons...

To argue that those who undertake the hobby in its stated 'correct' form are elitist is a bit daft really. Makes it all sound like excuses... If you want to play with stuff that is all the same bland colour, go for it. Just don't expect a venue marketing the game to like it, as they showcase the entire hobby, and don't expect those who do invest the time to want to play you.

That was a way better way of putting things than I used.

Again as stated alot earlier in the threads,

Old rule: no grey mini's allowed at a gw table.

New rule: You can play with unpainted mini's but you have a slight disadvantage in CC

As far as i'm concerned, the unpainted posters on here should love that rule and be quiet , as it means they can play on an awesome GW terrain board, with unpainted mini's. As opposed to the old days, where you wouldn't be allowed to play at all.

I just see it as a fun rule to encourage painters and nothing to get into a fuss over.

And I'm behind the WAAAGH! rule 100%.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

 mattyrm wrote:

Paint your models, don't paint your models, but please, don't bore the tits off me whinging about such a miniscule issue. I mean, feth me, theres a war on, everyone is in the poor-house, Africa is fethed and Egypts on fire, and we have this level of outrage over such a tiny fething issue?

So bored that you can't stand to step away from the the thread. Makes sense.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

Oh so its an imagined slight then.

Always the best ones to get upset about.

No one has been told they can not play with anything, but at a store somewhere far from you they would like (but not require) players to paint their minis. The barstards!

Yep....I can totally see your point.

 notprop wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

Oh so its an imagined slight then.

Always the best ones to get upset about.

No one has been told they can not play with anything, but at a store somewhere far from you they would like (but not require) players to paint their minis. The barstards!

Yep....I can totally see your point.

I'd say that stating people with unpainted miniatures are an undesirable crowd which one can derive pleasure from avoiding is more than an "imagined slight".
And no, they aren't bastards, they're just a store that I would never play at.

Well for me, anyone that plays 40k is worth avoiding...

Thats no imagined slight. That game is generally one long arguement from what I have seen lately! This thread kinda backs that up...

And yes I am having a joke... Mostly.

Though I still avoid 40k!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

No, not at all. I'm saying that I don't want to play against people who do not paint there minis. I don't see that as "entitled". I have every right to chose to play or not play who I want. As do you. What is "entitled" is saying other people must play against my untainted minis (or even painted minis. If someone had a fully pained force and demanded people play against them that would be the same).

And elitist? Saying "I'm only playing against GD level painting is elitist." Same as saying " I'm not playing against forces that don't follow the FOC" is not elitist but saying "I'm only playing against competative army's" is. People have every right to play a force just made up of HS if they want, but don't be shocked when someone says thats not aloud here. To take the phrase "elitist" back to its earlyer meaning, in FPS's, being elitist is to say "I only play on a team with players with a high ranking" saying "I'm not playing with you because your idea of fun is to get killed as many times as you can" is not. And being entitled in that context would be the guy who likes to rack up the most deaths saying "you have to play with me. I paid for my game and my XBL account".

Oh, and BTW, I have no problem with people being elitist sometimes as long as they are not a jerk about it. I am not a brilliant player and sometimes people say to me "sorry Steve, I'm testing out a tournament list. I'd rather not play someone I will roflstomp".

When 40k was a skirmish game, with few models. Asking for a fully painted army was not unreasonable.
When an army can be as many as 200+ models, you need to give an take a little.
You can't expect someone to paint all their army straight away.
I would never refuse to play a game of 40k, because an army was not painted.
Why miss out on what could be a good game.


Restaurant I was once asked to leave because the guy thought I wouldn't be able to afford the prices. (leather motorcycle jacket tassels, badges, jeans etc)
So I put all my cards on the table. No problem

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

You can play with gray models whenever you want to. You just will be at a disadvantage if you do it at that store. I don't recall ever saying people with unpainted models are "satan incarnate", but I stand by my statement that I prefer playing against painted armies instead of unpainted. Anything that potentially skews the ratio of painted to unpainted in favor of my preferred gaming environment is always going to be a positive thing in my own humble opinion.

 loki old fart wrote:
When 40k was a skirmish game, with few models. Asking for a fully painted army was not unreasonable.
When an army can be as many as 200+ models, you need to give an take a little.
You can't expect someone to paint all their army straight away.
I would never refuse to play a game of 40k, because an army was not painted.
Why miss out on what could be a good game.

TBH I think most people feel the same For me it's not really about part painted army's that are being worked on, but about grey plastic that is never going to be painted. It's just that it started with some unpainted to use new minis and has creeped to never going to be painted.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet that seems the opposite as well, you are feeling entitled that you have painted your mini's and thus everyone else has to be up to your standards to play you. Both Elitist and Entitled.

Does anyone else simply read this as "No YOU!"?

See, at least for me, it's just more enjoyable to play against painted armies. This rule in the OP encourages more armies to be painted, and simultaneously (I hope, and so this thread indicates from the unpainted crowd) drives away the type of people that don't want to paint their armies.

To me, it's win-win.

Again with the "type of people". I really don't understand how having a painted army makes you a more likeable opponent. From the insinuations thrown around this thread my dislike of this rule makes me Satan incarnate, yet I tend to play with painted miniatures. I just don't like some one telling me that I can't play with grey fairly when I want.

You can play with gray models whenever you want to. You just will be at a disadvantage if you do it at that store. I don't recall ever saying people with unpainted models are "satan incarnate", but I stand by my statement that I prefer playing against painted armies instead of unpainted. Anything that potentially skews the ratio of painted to unpainted in favor of my preferred gaming environment is always going to be a positive thing in my own humble opinion.

I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

That sign is specific to your store.

Other stores don't have that issue, they have the issue of lost gaming and hobby space, and not really wanting people in the store painting up armies. A unit or squad, maybe, but you are expected at this point to suck it, and if you paint them, you paint them at your house. As playing your army- people are playing a game with an unwritten rule that your playing YOUR army. that honestly deems painting them up.

I've been to a couple of GW stores in my travels past couple of weeks, and they have been pretty good to let you paint at that little table, but you are expected to give new players a spot so they can learn to paint the sample figure, and learn the "GW way to paint your lickies and chewies." Table for painting is around a 4X4 table, or a 4X3 and a half with 2 to 4 stools. Paint and gak is there for the use, but the new player walking in off the street is the one that gets priority, and they use the paints and such to paint the sample guy.

The stores are honestly pretty dry, but you can have a little leeway if you don't go all postal on there. Mind your manners, and you can BS with the gamers and store workers, but when sales time comes you are expected to STFU and keep your opinions to yourself- as well as common courtesy to let the workers do their expected shilling.

Honestly?
The stores are too darned small, and they lack gaming space on the whole. Past couple of weekends in two different states I've seen guys showed up and they played games on two tables. these were usually multiplayer games, and the demo table in the doorway has all of the boxed games on it and the demos are on a small 2X2 board per game system.

The hours and limited time gives issue to painting armies in one go.

There is no entitlement in the stores, by the way.

You get to play, maybe. No one cares if its fully painted, though.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

Nah, I get it. It's all good! I'm not going to act like I've never played with an unpainted model, so I think we really agree about this more than we disagree. When I say "this type of person" I'm simply referring the status of their models as regards painting, and not making any kind of character judgments.

To give you a little insight on why I feel the way I do about this, I'm the kind of guy that likes to take a lot of pictures when I play and do battle reports or just post them up on Facebook or Instagram so I try to maximize the amount of time I spend playing games with painted armies on badass looking terrain. Luckily X-Wing is pre-painted so lately this is a much, much easier proposition.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I agree with this entirely, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you enjoy and where you enjoy doing it. I'm sorry if you misconstrued your comments as hostile, it's rather easy to do when many of the other voices in the room are.

Nah, I get it. It's all good! I'm not going to act like I've never played with an unpainted model, so I think we really agree about this more than we disagree. When I say "this type of person" I'm simply referring the status of their models as regards painting, and not making any kind of character judgments.

To give you a little insight on why I feel the way I do about this, I'm the kind of guy that likes to take a lot of pictures when I play and do battle reports or just post them up on Facebook or Instagram so I try to maximize the amount of time I spend playing games with painted armies on badass looking terrain. Luckily X-Wing is pre-painted so lately this is a much, much easier proposition.

Nice! Do you have somewhere that you post battle reps, like here on Dakka? I'd like to check em out sometime. I definitely agree that battle reps are more enjoyable painted.

I'm similar - take a look at the Necromunda stuff in my Sig.

Curiously having just taken up X-Wing in the last fortnight I felt weirdly uncomfortable about using pre-paints for the first time. A good game so i'll get over it.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

Nice! Do you have somewhere that you post battle reps, like here on Dakka? I'd like to check em out sometime. I definitely agree that battle reps are more enjoyable painted.

I just realized as I reviewed these that I really, really miss playing 40k all of a sudden! These are kind of old, they span the transition of the old 'cron codex to the new for example, since I haven't had a lot of time to play lately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/0/23223/17.page

 Monster Rain wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

Nice! Do you have somewhere that you post battle reps, like here on Dakka? I'd like to check em out sometime. I definitely agree that battle reps are more enjoyable painted.

I just realized as I reviewed these that I really, really miss playing 40k all of a sudden! These are kind of old, they span the transition of the old 'cron codex to the new for example, since I haven't had a lot of time to play lately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/0/23223/17.page

Wow!! I didn't put 2 and 2 together, but I've read your bat. reps before! They're great stuff. Really enjoy them.

So I guess this thread is done btw. In the end we all realized we like different things, realized we have to find places where we can do our different things, but in the end we all love plastic crack.

 loki old fart wrote:
Restaurant I was once asked to leave because the guy thought I wouldn't be able to afford the prices. (leather motorcycle jacket tassels, badges, jeans etc)
So I put all my cards on the table. No problem

I was asked to leave a restaurant once, it was because I didn't meet the dress code. I was wearing jean shorts (yes laugh it up, I was wearing jorts 10 years ago ). It didn't make a difference if I could afford to pay, it would just disrupt and detract from the rest of the patrons experience. I would still go back to the restaurant too but its not every day I want to drop $200-250 on dinner for 2. I decided to go with my wife (then new fiance) and swung by on our way home from the beach. When I walked in they promptly escorted me out and told me the dress code rules.

 notprop wrote:
I'm similar - take a look at the Necromunda stuff in my Sig.

Curiously having just taken up X-Wing in the last fortnight I felt weirdly uncomfortable about using pre-paints for the first time. A good game so i'll get over it.

I used to feel the same about buying painted models and painting services. But I realised I would never manage to paint all my figures myself. Why beat yourself up?

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

1/3 of the main rulebook is dedicated to painted minis. Asking to paint your minis for a minor buff is like asking an extra glass of water in a restaurant.

 illuknisaa wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you have so many unpainted units that a rule which by its wording applies to single units that this becomes "unfair", I'd suggest you stop pretending that it is the shop at fault.

I like the word "fault" and how well it is used to show that your opinion of fun is better than mine, rather than just being different.

Again, army of unpainted minis. The rule makes the game unfair. You can chock up "fault" or blame anywhere you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that the rule gives an advantage to one person over another based on the color of their models, which is all I said and stated that I wouldn't play there. But again, the point is: Painted vs Unpainted = an unfair game at this store. You can not deny that fact.

1/3 of the main rulebook is dedicated to painted minis. Asking to paint your minis for a minor buff is like asking an extra glass of water in a restaurant.

We've closed the debate. I think everyone's satisfied with letting it die now.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
Wow!! I didn't put 2 and 2 together, but I've read your bat. reps before! They're great stuff. Really enjoy them..

Hey thanks man! They take a fair amount of time to write out long-form like that, so the positive feedback is nice.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
So I guess this thread is done btw. In the end we all realized we like different things, realized we have to find places where we can do our different things, but in the end we all love plastic crack.

Yeah, I think this is pretty much the abridged version of the debate for the sane people. The extremists will always be mad, but there's nothing to be done about that.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
We've closed the debate. I think everyone's satisfied with letting it die now.

WRONG, I AM NOT SATISFED

At least we settled that this is not an attempt by the store to force you to buy more paints.

 d-usa wrote:
At least we settled that this is not an attempt by the store to force you to buy more paints.

Disagree.

 d-usa wrote:
At least we settled that this is not an attempt by the store to force you to buy more paints.

I too disagree.

But that's only because I refuse to agree with anyone who uses the term "YOLO".

 notprop wrote:
I'm similar - take a look at the Necromunda stuff in my Sig.

Curiously having just taken up X-Wing in the last fortnight I felt weirdly uncomfortable about using pre-paints for the first time. A good game so i'll get over it.

I love to paint my minis, but I got over my aversion with preapaints via Mechwarrior clix figures. Not for the mechwarrior game itself, but I wanted to try small scale gaming so rebasing units that were already painted saved me a ton of painting time.

 Mastiff wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
At least we settled that this is not an attempt by the store to force you to buy more paints.

I too disagree.

But that's only because I refuse to agree with anyone who uses the term "YOLO".

You're just totes jelly that your #SWAG can't handle his #YOLO #SWAG up in your grillz...

Also wait until September, he'll change it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

You're just totes jelly that your #SWAG can't handle his #YOLO #SWAG up in your grillz...

Also wait until September, he'll change it.

I think I just pulled something while surpressing the urge to facepalm so hard that it would change the features of my face

+1 internets to you Alf

What happens in September? Self-awareness?

Super Newb wrote:
What happens in September? Self-awareness?

D-usa changes his avatar and title about once a month.

Did the poor guy miss July's Summer of Mat Ward love?

 d-usa wrote:
Did the poor guy miss July's Summer of Mat Ward love?

Indeed

I can dig the rule. I got into the hobby because of the models and painting/putting together models. The fact that I started the actual game later and periodically play it was incidental. I have played at GW as well as in FLGS and in friend's houses, and few things are as enjoyable as a fully terrained, fully painted set of armies going head to head (or whatever alien organ serves as a head, 40K wise). For the purposes of advertising, it lets the parents (and the other people with money) to see what "could" be, and gives a "hobby that incidentally is a game" nod that would otherwise be "my eleven year old can play expensive toy soldiers with a twenty-five year old basement dweller with scant regard for physical hygiene."

At a 'Ardboyz I attended, they gave an extra "point" towards players who's armies were at least 3 color painted, and rightly so. The guy who won the thing overall had a non-painted army of ork nob bikers and Kanz. While he may have won, the FLGS that hosted the event at least gave some points to players who went through the trouble of painting and basing an army.

The hatred rule is funny, as I think my painted models would look down upon the plastic colored 'tardmen of the opposition, I would be more inclined to give the army that is fully painted anywhere from 1-3 rerolls to use on any particular dice roll in the game, more than a flat "hatred" rule.