Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is CSM fluff bad?

Bunch of boring, bland, one-dimensional villains that have zero depth outside of ridiculously childish behavior and lame excuses for their villainy.

I've seen Pokemon villains that had more depth than Chaos Space Marines. As for your criticism of Sisters of Battle, I take it you haven't actually READ any of their novels?

MarsNZ wrote:
You claimed CSM have good fluff and criticised SoB in the same post?

Now you've really done it...

Let us be honest, there are a lot of books out there that have SoB slaughtered in the dozens all the while a small unit of SPEES MUHRINEZ does the job in a unit of 5 . Also I'd argue CSM do have some good fluff books. HH tends to be hit or miss (probably leaning more miss and by more I mean quite so but this is true for both sides) but bar that there are some gems (and honestly this goes for all. Hurrah for Sturgeon's Law coupled with fans writing books as well as people that hardly know the world! And a realm of contradictory fluff)

It was never possible for me to particularly care about the overwhelming majority of the Horus Heresy, but meh; the only books I have particularly liked thus far are A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, which are excellently written alongside one another, but sort of just okay on their own.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is CSM fluff bad?

Bunch of boring, bland, one-dimensional villains that have zero depth outside of ridiculously childish behavior and lame excuses for their villainy.

I've seen Pokemon villains that had more depth than Chaos Space Marines. As for your criticism of Sisters of Battle, I take it you haven't actually READ any of their novels?

To be honest I can argue that for loyalist marines, IG, and pretty much every other faction. Especially loyalist marines though. Although I haven't really found an Eldar book I have really enjoyed yet. Also wait so how is a one dimensional villain bad but a one dimensional army of green fungi that just want war and act childish good? Also really the excuse for villainy varies from one to another.

Onto SoB books (when they are the focus), I personally enjoyed the James Swallow books but nothing beats a small article on a WD- The bones of Saint Emiline!


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 Melissia wrote:
It was never possible for me to particularly care about the overwhelming majority of the Horus Heresy, but meh; the only books I have particularly liked thus far are A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, which are excellently written alongside one another, but sort of just okay on their own.

To be honest my list of HH books aren't much better. Some of the first books, the two you mentioned, and one or two other novels that I have since forgotten (if I remember I will edit them in) are really the only ones I found "good". Some were entertaining but more like a guilty pleasure in the this is so bad it is good.

 StarTrotter wrote:
To be honest I can argue that [...] Especially loyalist marines though.

You aren't going to find me disagreeing too hard. "Bolter Porn" isn't very interesting to me.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Also wait so how is a one dimensional villain bad but a one dimensional army of green fungi that just want war and act childish good?

Orks have a huge amount of subtle differences that show exactly how alien they are; but nothing they do is inherently illogical from the standpoint of a race that cares for nothing but war.

It's probably wrong to call them one-dimensional, really. Orks are a careful balance of seriousness and comedy; they take everything they do quite seriously, and they love every second of it... but to us, it is a strange, silly, alien worldview that we find hard to understand, and often find quite amusing. Yet in-universe they are frightening, an unbeatable horde that will NEVER stop waging war because waging war is their greatest love, their raison d'etre-- you can try to deal with them, but they'll just figure out how to make those deals in to something that helps them wage war. Yet sometimes this results in something that is meta-funny, like the warboss who went back in time to steal a second copy of his own gun. Makes perfect sense that he'd do that. But its' still hilarious!

It's this balance that elevates Orks from "meh, they're just a boring horde" to something better.

They're the race that exists to be knocked over by the good guys.

It's sad, the Orks were my first love in 40k, even before the Necrons, but it's true.

Chaos Marine fluff varies depending on where exactly you are looking. The only thing we can say for certain is that it is infinitely more exciting than Sisters of Battle fluff.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They're the race that exists to be knocked over by the good guys.

We're talking about Orks, not Chaos Space Marines

Orks are interesting in their own right, even without any "good guys"; see Deff Skwadron

Chaos Space Marines require Loyal Space Marines in order to exist, to work as lore. Orks work by themselves, even with no other faction to play them off of, because they can play off of our own culture and expectations, our own base assumptions on how people act.

I think chaos Marines have some of the most interesting fluff out there. Their 'heroes' are usually far more multi-demensional than most loyalist characters.

But I also love the HH books, which are popular to criticize at the moment. I think they're fantastic and some of the best stuff GW has put out. So, what do I know?

Having different opinions/tastes in books is not bad, and me disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm saying you're a bad person.

Though I was working under the assumption that this was the assumed state of things in this forum, given that we are talking about the lore of a setting that explicitly states "believe what you want to about our lore" as its standard for what is and isn't canon.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is CSM fluff bad?

Bunch of boring, bland, one-dimensional villains that have zero depth outside of ridiculously childish behavior and lame excuses for their villainy.

I've seen Pokemon villains that had more depth than Chaos Space Marines. As for your criticism of Sisters of Battle, I take it you haven't actually READ any of their novels?

That same criticism can be levied against Orks; they're ridiculously childish, bland, and have lame excuses for wanting to fight people. At least Aaron Dembski-Bowden manages to create compelling characters in his novels about the Night Lords. I don't know of any fluff that makes Orks seem the least bit compelling.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is CSM fluff bad?

Bunch of boring, bland, one-dimensional villains that have zero depth outside of ridiculously childish behavior and lame excuses for their villainy.

I've seen Pokemon villains that had more depth than Chaos Space Marines. As for your criticism of Sisters of Battle, I take it you haven't actually READ any of their novels?

You're clearly reading the wrong novels. The right ones have them as the protagonists.

And as for their motivations, it's likely simply you not understanding them. Astartes bear much similarity to the Bushido code with pledges of unwavering loyalty, hence why the majority of Legions stayed loyal to the traitor Primarchs and followed them into the maw of hell itself. Plus motivations of CSM's is a gigantic pool to draw from, ranging from renegade to devout worshiper of Chaos, whereas with most loyalist and Astartes it will boil down to love of the emperor, defending the imperium, fighting heretics, etc. Whereas CSM's typically are a rowdy bunch of pirate warmongers having much more in common with the original characterization of Astartes, which works well with them. There's a whole rainbow of flavors whereas with the Imperium you're stuck with a small collection of character choices.

 Melissia wrote:
We're talking about Orks, not Chaos Space Marines

I don't think you quite understand what I mean.

Chaos Marines are in any given story generally the big bads, or at least a very elite dragon. In some older Abnett work, like First and Only, this is not the case, but for the most part if Chaos Marines are involved then gak is going down.

Orks are usually just a speedbump, a horde of nameless barbarians who only exist to provide something to be mowed down in droves by the protagonist, and are rarely the main threat. You get a few exceptions. Helsreach was a particularly notable novel where the Orks were both the only threat the Black Templars fought, but were also very dangerous. At one point, through their own low cunning, they manage to incapacitate an Emperor Titan that until then was entirely unopposed in its onslaught. But these instances are rare.

Orks are interesting in their own right, even without any "good guys"; see Deff Skwadron

Other than Deff Skwadron though, what notable Ork books are there? Blood and Thunder? Most disappointing 40k work I've ever read. I really expected so much more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Other than Deff Skwadron though, what notable Ork books are there?

That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Or more accurately, its focus on Space Marines, and to a lesser extent, the Imperial Guard and Inquisition.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You're clearly reading the wrong novels. The right ones have them as the protagonists.

I struggle to finish ANY Space Marine book most of the time, never mind a CSM-focused one.

 Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:
The only reason Orks exist

Orks are far too awesome to need a reason to exist.

Their love of fighting is something that is truly alien, they take it to the logical extreme in every way. That's a good amount of the reason why they're both funny AND frightening, which gives them far more depths than boring factions like CSMs.

Except that CSM's are the logical extremes of humanity when it is set free of all restrictions.

But, y'know, that can't ever be interesting.

Hey, Melissia, I've got a message for ya.

Kisses,
Children of Torment

 SarisKhan wrote:
Hey, Melissia, I've got a message for ya.

Kisses,
Children of Torment

Said the *Noise* Marine

Exalted

Here's my favorite Chaos book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Darkness

 MWHistorian wrote:
Here's my favorite chaos book.

Spoiler:

Fix'd

Ah...

Rule #1, everyone.

Seriously.

2014!

Melissia, ever heard of the Night Lords books?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Melissia, ever heard of the Night Lords books?

Yes, what of them?

I wasn't impressed.

 StarTrotter wrote:
oh and most of SoB appearances. Watch the loyalists be 100x better and sisters gain faith from watching SPEES WULVES!

As I've said before, I don't think that the majority of fluff involving the SoB is bad, just the most prominent of it. Remember, lots of fluff portraying the SoB well is back in older times, and often in more obscure sources. On top of that, the bad portrayals often get way more hype. Just look at the hubbub that the Bloodtide kicked off next to most other pieces of fluff, and you can understand why people may have become more concious of fluff that portrays the Sisters badly.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Let us be honest, there are a lot of books out there that have SoB slaughtered in the dozens all the while a small unit of SPEES MUHRINEZ does the job in a unit of 5

Already addressed that above, but I'd also point out that BL books isn't so bad to the SoB. After all, we still have James Swallow's three SoB works, Daemonblood, Ben Counter's first Grey Knights novel and Daemonifuge all giving a very good portrayal of the Sisters too. Also, a lot of books might be overstating it a little.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Melissia, ever heard of the Night Lords books?

Yes, what of them?

I wasn't impressed.

Quite the irony, since I found them better than pretty much any loyalist, IG or SoB book.

And I found them tedious and boring. Everyone has different tastes.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Melissia, ever heard of the Night Lords books?

Yes, what of them?

I wasn't impressed.

Quite the irony, since I found them better than pretty much any loyalist, IG or SoB book.

Not sure that's really irony, just two people liking different things.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Melissia, ever heard of the Night Lords books?

Yes, what of them?

I wasn't impressed.

Quite the irony, since I found them better than pretty much any loyalist, IG or SoB book.

Not sure that's really irony, just two people liking different things.

I think the irony is that each side thinks that the other is bland, whiney and boring.

I agree.

Kill the loyalists!

 Troike wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
oh and most of SoB appearances. Watch the loyalists be 100x better and sisters gain faith from watching SPEES WULVES!

As I've said before, I don't think that the majority of fluff involving the SoB is bad, just the most prominent of it. Remember, lots of fluff portraying the SoB well is back in older times, and often in more obscure sources. On top of that, the bad portrayals often get way more hype. Just look at the hubbub that the Bloodtide kicked off next to most other pieces of fluff, and you can understand why people may have become more concious of fluff that portrays the Sisters badly.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Let us be honest, there are a lot of books out there that have SoB slaughtered in the dozens all the while a small unit of SPEES MUHRINEZ does the job in a unit of 5

Already addressed that above, but I'd also point out that BL books isn't so bad to the SoB. After all, we still have James Swallow's three SoB works, Daemonblood, Ben Counter's first Grey Knights novel and Daemonifuge al giving a very good portrayal of the Sisters too. Also, a lot of books might be overstating it a little.

Ah my apologies then. I'll admit I really don't buy that many BL books. I bought a few HH (and all involving TS because they are my favorite legion followed by Salamanders), James Swallow's three works after your recommendation of them, some eisenstein, and then quite a couple guardsman books. Well then, I'm glad to hear I was wrong! Just haven't had the best of luck with what I have read I guess.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ah my apologies then. I'll admit I really don't buy that many BL books. I bought a few HH (and all involving TS because they are my favorite legion followed by Salamanders), James Swallow's three works after your recommendation of them, some eisenstein, and then quite a couple guardsman books. Well then, I'm glad to hear I was wrong! Just haven't had the best of luck with what I have read I guess.

Nah, no apology needed. It's a common misconception.

Did you enjoy the James Swallow SoB stuff, by the way?

 Melissia wrote:
That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Not really. Orks get dragged through the mud in the BL worse than any other xenos. Yeah, Tau, Daemons and Eldar lose to the Imperium, but they also have a ton of wins, too. (There is an entire trilogy centered around Eldar spanking Imperium for example, which includes a Space Marine chapter being all but extinguished.)

There also plenty of Chaos centered books that are all about CSM handing it to the Imperium (Night Lords trilogy, Iron Warriors omnibus to name a few).

So you can't really hide behind any perceived GW bias for the Imperium here.

Orks are necks to be stepped on in most novels because they're a goofy race of cockney accented fodder and they have the numbers to not go extinct because of it.

 Troike wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ah my apologies then. I'll admit I really don't buy that many BL books. I bought a few HH (and all involving TS because they are my favorite legion followed by Salamanders), James Swallow's three works after your recommendation of them, some eisenstein, and then quite a couple guardsman books. Well then, I'm glad to hear I was wrong! Just haven't had the best of luck with what I have read I guess.

Nah, no apology needed. It's a common misconception.

Did you enjoy the James Swallow SoB stuff, by the way?

Yes! I quite enjoyed it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not really.

The fact that there are so few Ork-centric pieces of lore is, in fact, due to this

I dunno why people say loyalist marines are bland and one dimensional. Perhaps many of the books on them are, and certainly they have a rather simple base concept, but once you branch out from there you get like, a ridiculously HUGE variety of personalities.

Really, you have the Salamanders who love forging stuff and actually care about people. Within this chapter you have some who are ambitious and want to lead their company and others who are just trying to do their job (from the novels)

You have the Blood Angels who are cursed to go beserk into death throes sometimes, yet try their hardest and are generally optimistic. Within this chapter you have a chapter master who's so OLD that he kinda wishes he could just die but hangs on because he believes he'll be needed to save the emperor some day, a stern stoic executioner who has to bear the burden of executing said marines who went beserk, and many other characters each with their own individual personalities. Then you branch off into their successors and you get chapters like the Lamenters who managed to stave off the worse effects of the Black Rage but are hated by everyone due to their bad luck despite how they're just trying to do their best to help humanity, or the Flesh Tearers who are completely in the other direction and hated by everyone for it yet are STILL trying to do their best to help humanity (or at least, their chapter master is) despite it all.

Then you have the Iron Hands, who are grumpy old guys who hate everything but machines. You have the Space Wolves, who are rebellious and rambunctious but have some guys who are a bit wisened by the years and others like Lukas who are just nuts. Then you have the Dark Angels, who are insanely loyal yet insanely paranoid, and you can dip into their successor chapters like the Angels of Absolution who believe they're forgiven for that sin by their actions.

Then you go into all of the more out-there chapters and you get the Black Dragons who are shunned for their mutations but don't care, the Silver Skulls who are crazy hooked on prognostications, the Carcharodons who are professional off battle but crazy beserk on it, the minotaurs who are just crazy in general, and the Marines Malevelent who are just jack asses (not even "ZOMG EVIL EVIL EVIL!!! jack asses like Chaos is, but relatively more of that "man, that internet poster is such a jerk" jack ass you see in every day life")

You have space marines who might have been made from traitor gene seed and are trying to cover it up, space marines that were illegally founded by the Adeptus Mechanicus, space marines that want to use Chaos' weapons against them, space marines that work closely with the inquisition and that don't and that hate everyone or love everyone or just don't care about anything anymore and there are even some space marine chapters that do worship the emperor as a god...

Seriously, how the feth can that be bland and one-dimensional? The amount of personalities for Space Marines that exist in the fluff and the potential for you yourself to create your own personality for them is nearly endless. If anything, of all the factions, they offer the 2nd most in-canon and potential-fanon personality customization there is in terms of personality! (the first would be the Imperial Guard. You can have a cowardly or greedy guardsman but you won't find a cowardly marine, etc. Space Marine indoctrination makes it hard to have certain personality aspects in them)

Compare this to say, the Adeptus Sororitas, where if they aren't crazy zealous religious fanatics, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to say, the Tau where if you make your Tau overly emotional when they're supposed to not have a big warp signature, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the Tyranids where ALL the bugs are controlled by the same hive mind and if they have separate personalities from each other besides the Swarm Lord, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the necrons, where the only personality customization you can have at all is with the top brass (old crons had it even worse. There's a reason why some people say they were basically a 2nd tyranid faction). Compare it to the Dark Eldar, where if you aren't a psychotic selfish evil ass, you're doing it wrong. Compare this to the Orks where if you have an Ork that actually cares about the little guy, you're prooooobably doing it wrong but maybe not.

...as an aside, orks aren't one-dimensional, either. They have access to almost all the emotions humans have access to that has turned up in the fluff on multiple occasions, with the exception of sexual lust and possibly sadness . While it's true they ALL love fighting, from there orks do have various idiosynacrasis like how some like bling more than others, some like speed more than others, some actually care about "little guys" (runt-herders and orks that keep squigs for pets), etc etc. Sure, they aren't capable of sexual feelings like the Guard and (far as I know) don't experience sadness like the Guard and some Space Marines, but they can have all the other emotions as well as free will and you can branch off of that to end up with speed freaks, mercenary orks who will work with humies, orks who hate other alien races and see those who work with them as un-orky, free booter orks that have an adventurous spirit or were just rejected from ork society for a wide variety of non-one-dimensional reasons, orks that sincerely hate their foe, orks that sincerely see their foe as the ork-ish equivalent of best friend (best enemy), etc etc.

I think people who call certain factions "one-dimensional" don't know what the term means.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Orks are necks to be stepped on in most novels because they're a goofy race of cockney accented fodder and they have the numbers to not go extinct because of it.

Have an exalt.

XXXX

It's not that orks are never the main villain. Sometimes they are, such as Armegeddon and the Raid for Kastorum Novum (I know the spelling is wrong)

It's that there's usually no other race available to really be stepped on if you're trying to write a novel that has two villain factions within it. Well, in terms of whether the authors can be bothered to expend the energy fleshing out TWO villain factions. It's much easier to flesh out one villain faction and then just toss orks in as the other one because they're orks.

I guess asking them to flesh out a Dark Eldar Cabal and a Chaos Marine legion within the same book would be too much or something?

....although it'd be funny if there were a book where the orks ended up being the main villains and the other villain faction got stepped on in the process.

That said, the final boss of one of the videogames (the Kill Team one, I think? it was the Death Watch one) had the orks as the initial faction to be stepped on with the Tyranids as the main villain, but the final boss was the Ork leader in the end (in a stompa!) so they did get to be the "final villain" at least once in a multi-villain set up, even if that game followed the typical "orks first, other villain later" formula until the end.

I am pretty sure that the only correct answer is that you all are wrong and I am right.

Orks, were I to write them, would not be the fodder they are in almost all other pieces of 40k fluff, but they are. There is some depth to their fluff, but it is often quietly brushed aside either for the sake of comedy or for the sake of needing something to die in droves to the protagonists.

Angron was not whining when he railed against the Emperor for forcing him to watch his family die, that's idiotic.

For me, recently, it's been SoB. They've started to feel boring and gimmicky, which is a shame 'cause I used to think they were pretty cool.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's much easier to flesh out one villain faction and then just toss orks in as the other one because they're orks.

And because in 40k, it actually makes logical sense for any faction to encounter at least a smattering of Orks at every step.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
I am pretty sure that the only correct answer is that you all are wrong and I am right.

Orks, were I to write them, would not be the fodder they are in almost all other pieces of 40k fluff, but they are. There is some depth to their fluff, but it is often quietly brushed aside either for the sake of comedy or for the sake of needing something to die in droves to the protagonists.

Angron was not whining when he railed against the Emperor for forcing him to watch his family die, that's idiotic.

I agree on the second and third points, but not the first, because I shall not accept failure so easily

I echo Selym's post.

Just because the BL writers are incompetent doesn't mean the lore that exists is bad

At least that's what CSM players keep telling me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That is less the fault of the faction and more the fault of GW's intense focus on the Imperium.

Not really. Orks get dragged through the mud in the BL worse than any other xenos. Yeah, Tau, Daemons and Eldar lose to the Imperium, but they also have a ton of wins, too. (There is an entire trilogy centered around Eldar spanking Imperium for example, which includes a Space Marine chapter being all but extinguished.)

There also plenty of Chaos centered books that are all about CSM handing it to the Imperium (Night Lords trilogy, Iron Warriors omnibus to name a few).

So you can't really hide behind any perceived GW bias for the Imperium here.

Orks are necks to be stepped on in most novels because they're a goofy race of cockney accented fodder and they have the numbers to not go extinct because of it.

Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that and why has that never made an appearance in my bookstore?
Although I guess it'll unfortunately be filled with less than stellar stories about Honsou.

 Melissia wrote:
Just because the BL writers are incompetent doesn't mean the lore that exists is bad

At least that's what CSM players keep telling me.

What are you referencing?

I still wish they would write an Ork centered book that has them as the masters of dark comedy that they are. Hoorah for Hyperbole

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that

Found it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Warriors-Omnibus-Warhammer-000/dp/1849701393

A hefty pricetag though.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, there's an Iron Warriors Omnibus? Where the hell can I buy that

Found it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Warriors-Omnibus-Warhammer-000/dp/1849701393

A hefty pricetag though.

That is the number one thing I utterly DESPISE about the Black Library and GW, attempting to manipulate the prices by printing books for limited amounts of time and discontinuing them, causing people to rush to buy them and inflating the price. It's terrible marketing in the long run and you'll notice that no other intelligent publisher does it. Why? Because it's moronic.. It's the same reason why I've never been able to read Blood Reaver of the Talos Trilogy, because for some stupid reason a book published in 2011 is OUT OF PRINT?

Yeah, hopefully someday the Black Library develops a better marketing scheme that wasn't devised by a hack marketer.

And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

Amen.

Heck yes.

 Selym wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And people wonder why i pirate the gak out of BL novels.

Amen.

Amen.

Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Try Faith and Fire and Hammer and Anvil for SOB novels where they don't just show up to get killed.

In Titanicus the Chaos forces were presented as a very creepy and threatening way. The Mechanicum were shown to not be one hive mind of robot people.

As a writer I believe that any faction's story can be interesting and awesome, it just depends on the quality of story being told. If the story isn't good or the characters aren't interesting, then it won't matter if you like that faction or not, it'll still suck. (Well, I'm a little more forgiving towards factions I do like, so my theory isn't perfect.)

The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

This is part of the reason why I love Chaos and the Chaos Space Marines so much. They're the most widely varied faction in W40K and are best described as a roaming band of pirate lords that come in every possible flavor imaginable- with the personal customization being near limitless. Their motivations can nearly be anything, even those of the loyalists, who are a bit more constricted.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders.

Indeed. In fact, this is stated to be a regular thing in their 6E codex, with it being common for detatchments of Sisters to develop their own identities and eventually "split off" into Minor Orders (I put spit off into quotation marks since, nominally, they're still under the command of the Major Order they're descended from). So it seems that the writers are keen to emphasise that there's plenty of customisability in an army that can appear rather rigid in terms of what you can do with it.

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

 Wyzilla wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The fluff actually explicitly states that the mechanicum, marines, and orks are not one hive mind for their respective factions. If all marines, orks, or in most cases whatever else seems lame and one-dimensional, that's the fault of the writers handling them, when the fluff has always been very clear that each marine chapter has its own idiosynacracies, orks disperse into klans based on their own personal preferences, and there are various idealogies nearly at war with each other within the inquisition, ecclesiarchy, and mechanicus, and has provided examples for all of them.

There are many things I don't like about various factions, but for most of them, "one-dimensional" isn't one of them. The warhammer 40k writers (be they studio, FFG, or Forge World) generally go out of their way to leave a huge large variety of options for you, the player, and for the writers to create their own personalized chapter/klan/whatever within most factions.

Even the SoB, who IMHO give you relatively little leeway to personalize them, get disclaimers that state each order developed its own traditions apart from the main orders. Hell, it looks like they might even be trying to give the tyranids of all things (the faction that's one-dimensional ON PURPOSE) some more personalization options if rumours of the latest codex are true.

That said, some have more options than others. It's just bizarre that some of the factions with the MOST options are being touted as one-dimensional.

This is part of the reason why I love Chaos and the Chaos Space Marines so much. They're the most widely varied faction in W40K and are best described as a roaming band of pirate lords that come in every possible flavor imaginable- with the personal customization being near limitless. Their motivations can nearly be anything, even those of the loyalists, who are a bit more constricted.

Meh save for the Word Bearers omnibus I typically find chaos presented as less evil and more space marines who no longer follow the Emperor. I personal,y just imagine them as more detached, soulless and evil beings than how they are portrayed currently.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

I love the current C:SM. It's actually nearly worth the money it's sold for!

For example in Flesh and Iron they are depicted more as freedom fighters on roids.

XXXX

TiamatRoar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wait, the Mechanicum illegally made a Space marine chapter?

Steel Confessors, assuming I remember the name right. It's studio fluff too, to the point where GW made a life-sized replica statue of one, if I recall correctly (or was it another chapter they made a statue of? Pretty sure it was a steel confessor, though). The amount of flexibility one has with designing a space marine chapter, its personality (and bear in mind the fluff is very explicit that even WITHIN a space marine chapter, each marine has his own individual personality), and origins is huge. The same goes for most other factions but marines especially seem to get a lot of love in this regard (or, at the very least, the largest number of official examples of what one can do with them).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Though I have noticed that the SW and GK are very limited, in this regard. Those armies are literally just single factions with their fluff very fleshed out, so there's not so much room to do your own thing with them within the given canon. Most notably, neither of them can really have successor Chapters. Though I guess you could have renegade Space Wolves, that's happened before IIRC.

Honestly I kinda see SW and GK more as sub-factions than factions. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Blood Angels fall under that wierd area where they were juuust different enough from other marine chapters that they could have their own codex to represent their unique rule sets but they're still generally marines, for the most part (well, in the Dark Angel's case, they were MADE "juuuuust different enough" since their base concept IMHO doesn't really require a separate codex at all). I figure with the advent of Chapter Tactics which allowed for more differentiation within Codex: Space Marines, BT could now be represented by that codex instead, although I can't help but think most of the others just barely scraped by to varying degrees with remaining independent (or the codex writers figured the book was big enough already).

....well, that and $$$$$$$$$$$, obviously.

......honestly if GW felt like it, they could probably put them all into Codex Space Marines, besides the Space Wolves, and only then because some silly joker decided to switch around the points costs of the units to try to differentiate the wolves a bit more (now the devastator and scout marines are vets and the assault marines the neophytes with the tactical marines as the in-betweens, and point-costed accordingly!!!!). Blood Angels are kinda already there since they've yet to get a new codex and have "gone digital". But C:SM is big enough already, I suppose.

Not big enough. If CSM deserves a single codex to represent ancient legions, newly fallen, and everything else, then I think all SM can be tossed together as well Joking aside, it's probably just because they keep DA as the experiment chapter whilst BA are mainly here because of Angel's Descent and you can't have wolves without vampries . But yeah I'd concur to SW and GK being sub-factions.

C:CSM really needs to be made just as big as C:SM. Well, maybe they'll get it right with the next edition. If only C:CSM 6th Edition came out AFTER C:SM 6th Edition did (and by then, GW presumably have realized they could make things more awesome as well as make more money by having C:CSM be a super huge codex, too), things might have been different for Chaos Space Marines. As it is, right now C:CSM feels more like 5.5th Edition, or C:SM feels more like 6.5th edition. One or the other (but probably not both)

Chaos Space Marines as they are right now are portrayed pretty badly a lot of the time. Again, this is more the fault of tcertain story writers... well, usually. The codex/background fluff sometimes states and shows there really is more to them than one dimensional or childish villainy. It just doesn't do it as much as it should, in my opinion. I know the Chaos gods in general are supposed to be the bad guys (relatively, and far as I know) but things are even more grim dark IMHO if the bad guys actually have a point, and while some writers realize that, others... don't.

I agree that in some aspects it does seem lame and childish how they turned, but it can vary by writer. Some writers give them a good (in my opinion) or at least, believable reason/background why certain legions or chapters turned, and others... don't.

Eldars...dying race, lots of ancient knowledge..certain they can somehow cut a deal with the Ordo Xeno for some protection (there is notes of the Navy/Inquisition/Imperium going out of their way to ignore worlds or certain sectors of space where Eldars go to) and help to make a solid front against Chaos and/or the Necrons, similar to Warhammer Fantasy; the Elves are dying, and while they know Mankind is flawed and weak, they also know their salvation rest with them.

Buuuutt instead of being logical and open, they got to feel us their cryptic BS which goes a little like this (dramatized) bit;

Eldar: "Be warned Astartes/General/Inquisitor, for while we appear as a torn in your side, we are merely shielding you from a greater thread!"
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "Really now.of what 'thread' you speak of, Eldar?"
Eldar "Such a calamity will bring untold suffering and countless death upon your polluted, primitive world, and even your mightiest of weapons could not bring this catastrophe to an end!"
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "Yes, you said it was something big, so, who or what, is it?..Sorta loosing my patience here..."
Eldar "We have once faced this darkness and were almost reduced to extinction! but now, we are prepared to face it and perhaps now, life will go on in the Galaxy."
Astartes/General/Inquisitor "That does it...OUT WITH THE NAME XENO 'LEAST YOU WISH TO FEEL MY WRATH!"
Eldar "foolish Mon'keigh! Your blindness will doom this world and everyone on it! We offered you our help but you have refused us! So be it!" *Disappear in the webway to eat ice cream and be grumpy.*

Seriously, if you were so smart and intelligent, you would still have an Empire and not have lost it all and brought forth the birth of Slaanesh.

TiamatRoar wrote:
C:CSM really needs to be made just as big as C:SM. Well, maybe they'll get it right with the next edition. If only C:CSM 6th Edition came out AFTER C:SM 6th Edition did (and by then, GW presumably have realized they could make things more awesome as well as make more money by having C:CSM be a super huge codex, too), things might have been different for Chaos Space Marines. As it is, right now C:CSM feels more like 5.5th Edition, or C:SM feels more like 6.5th edition. One or the other (but probably not both)

Chaos Space Marines as they are right now are portrayed pretty badly a lot of the time. Again, this is more the fault of tcertain story writers... well, usually. The codex/background fluff sometimes states and shows there really is more to them than one dimensional or childish villainy. It just doesn't do it as much as it should, in my opinion. I know the Chaos gods in general are supposed to be the bad guys (relatively, and far as I know) but things are even more grim dark IMHO if the bad guys actually have a point, and while some writers realize that, others... don't.

I agree that in some aspects it does seem lame and childish how they turned, but it can vary by writer. Some writers give them a good (in my opinion) or at least, believable reason/background why certain legions or chapters turned, and others... don't.

Yeah, C:CSM sucks pretty badly. I took a look at it and I sure am never buying a physical copy of it. While it's fairly decent, it's not near the good quality of C:SM is and while I can live without faction rules, I don't understand why they removed. Right now Forge World's Horus Heresy books are a better source of information, fluff, and rules than C:CSM, which is silly in a sad way.

EDIT-

With the Eldar you also have to remember that the Eldar are Craftworld Eldar and are like a nutty and super-conservative cult religion in real life. Sure, they saved their species from being OMNOM'D or turning into the Dark Eldar, but they remain a nutty super conservative cult predicting the apocalypse, only unlike the ones in real life, they were right.

It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

Had a look at the Hobbit II yet? Legolas' old daddy somehow manages to be portrayed as the ultimate bastard though he's just one isolationist high elf ruler when it comes down to it. Aye... a hundred years really is a blink of the eyes to an old enough elf - but using that as the first method of interrogation with proud dwarves?

 McNinja wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

Your idea is dumb. You'd basically create an even worse version of the Salem Witch Hunts than the Imperium practices already. People ARE dumb in 40k, liberal educations such as the ones we enjoy are extremely limited, if not entirely unavailable. Faced with such information, there would be panics and riots and pogroms (that one kid was born with an extra finger! Demon! Let's burn the whole family in their home just in case!

People are dumber in real life.

"liberal education?" Sounds awful.

Yeah, a liberal education. One that teaches you a broad range of subjects beyond the core basics (remember that most people in the Imperium are illiterate, there is absolutely nothing that they need to read) and that covers subjects such as art, drama, music, etc.

Most people in 40K aren't stupid, per se, but they are very, very under-educated. Most people (99.99% of the Imperial populace) do not have access to a Schola Progenium. All the people on a Feral World are illiterate. No one on Krieg is educated in anything other than religious matters... reading is not a religious devotion. The teeming millions of people slaving away in mines and such probably don't read, either. There's no need for them to, the Overseers will tell them what they need to know.

 McNinja wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

But wait there is more! Well what about the person that has an odd quirk, maybe some form of PTSD, etc etc etc. CHAOS! IT MUST BE CHAOS KILL THEM BURN THEM! Also keep in mind that chaos is dangerous in ways that many cannot comprehend. Heck, Nurgle made a plague that spread by way of making you doubt (Plague of Doubt yes quite the creative name).

 necrondog99 wrote:
"liberal education?" Sounds awful.

If you graduated from a United States high school or college, you had one.

A liberal education is described as "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterized by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study". The idea being that if you are uneducated, you can't be free ("liberal" taking cue from the latin root "liber", or "free", as in freedom; IE, liberty).

Whether or not it was successful in all of this is another question.