Tao for me. They just don't...fit... right in the universe. Chaos Demons for most blatant money grab.
It's hard to say though, each iteration of codexes and the associated +1 grimdark/awesome sways my opinion.
Does the Horus Heresy stable of writers count as a faction?
'Crons, by a country mile.
They have everything, can do anything. Why are the other factions even still there?
Plus, their whole schtick is essentially "we're the eldar, only more ancient, more advanced and evil". Oh yeah, and we're robots, or we'd be too obviously the same.
To me, probably Space Marines with Tau a close second, although they're the most popular. They're the generic human warriors in power armor.
In a sci-fi universe, although the Imperium in 40k has its own style that's come to grow on me, dudes in brightly-colored armor with large, blocky guns rate low on the totem pole. They're simply not different and unique enough imo.
I don't dislike any of the races in 40k, fluff or tabletop (okay, maybe Tau), but Space Marines are somewhat lame to me.
Tyranids. Biotech is useful but not for making spaceships or "classic" weapons of war. Why have a ship or weapon that can be hurt by both the environment and war when you could have one that doesn't care about anything except battle damage?
Tyranids. They only serve to be a setting, not a plot device. They almost never win, and hilariously bad showings like a single Eldar solo'ing a splinter fleet. It's just sad. They're good as a setting, but worthless for anything else.
At least the Tau could fit if they simply amped up the grimdark a bit- but Nids? They're cool, but you can't make a character out of them. They're the gigantic shadow bearing down on the galaxy that frequently gets it toe stubbed by someone and has to take five while it yowls.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Almost never win? I hear this a lot, and it's just as ridiculously silly every time.
The Tyranids have eaten a large chunk of the galaxy. The hive fleets have to lose eventually because the alternative is they eat the entire galaxy.
Anybody who thinks the Tyranids are the chumps of 40K haven't paid too much attention to the setting's actual fluff.
Only when they get defeated, it's so sad that it's hilarious. It brings more into question how to Tyranids devoured those other sections of the galaxy or if it simply was from the only forces being the Guard without Catachans.
I don't particularly have it out for any faction. They all have some pretty bad fluff. But in terms of function, I'm most bugged by the Tyranids. I don't mind the fluff, and the idea of Leviathan attacking the galaxy at a perpendicular angle is ingenious, but there models are so goofy looking.
For something that is supposed to be utterly alien to the galaxy, the Tyranids still fight and operate like other armies. They use guns, they have squad commanders (synapse creatures). They use artillery for god's sake.
If they spit acid or hocked up giant globs of explosive bile, that's one thing, but when the models actually have the gribblies holding gun analogues like the spinefists, devourers or barbed stranglers, it just looks silly.
At this point, the Necrons just seem to be set up as a countermeasure to any plot advancement with the 13th black crusade. Oh, is Chaos about to overload the pylon network? Necrons come in and supertech it, halting the crusade. Imperium about to win and push back Chaos? Necrons arrive and take over the planet anyways, ensuring the status quo.
IIRC, one Necron Dynasty has access to time travel tech, but like the guys in charge of the Celestial Orrery- vehemently protect it and are die-hard isolationists.
Space Marines. Any type. They're just boring op characters that have unbreachable plot armor. Everything they do anymore just makes me roll my eyes, doesn't feel like I'm reading about the Marines from the table top game... Can't get attached to the characters either. So I just stick with eldar as best faction.
Fluff-wise, I've never been able to stomach Eldar most of the time; to me they are just pansy elves in space. Although, I will gladly say that Harlequins are pure distilled awesome, and Craftworld Iyanden really intrigues me with it's reliance on Wraithguard/Wraithlords/Wraithwhatever.
Tau. Followed by Tyranids and Oldcrons. Tau because I feel they just don't fit the setting. Tyranids and Oldcrons because their faceless galaxy destroyer thing is bland to me.
The amount of people that really dislike the newcrons is amazing. I thought people had accepted them after these years.
My vote goes for them too. I do not really dislike them, they are kind of meh. But I really miss the oldcrons.
Before the retcon, I would have said Eldars. I mean, come on, they are elves in space. But I must admit I enjoy it a lot when I crush them with any other army. Something that has become really difficult since their new Codex.
Bran Dawri wrote: 'Crons, by a country mile.
They have everything, can do anything. Why are the other factions even still there?
Plus, their whole schtick is essentially "we're the eldar, only more ancient, more advanced and evil". Oh yeah, and we're robots, or we'd be too obviously the same.
I got into 40k thanks to the Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, I totally fell in love with the Necrons. 'Undead Space Zombie Robots? Awesomesauce!'
After a few years of being to the game & reading the fluff from the codex & novels, it hurts me to admit it but Newcrons are the 'lamest' faction. I don't blame Matt Ward of most of the reason why the Crons aren't as engaging, at their start it seems that the faction was poorly forced into the setting.
Oldcrons had the mystery & elements of horror to make them interesting.
The Newcrons backstory is fairly bland & doesn't set the tone of an Ancient Evil ready to awake & visit Doom on the foolish mortals. Instead the Newcrons motives are like a Saturday cartoon villains, 'They want to take over the Galaxy' Yawn... Why Undead Space Zombie Robots need all that real estate is beyond me.
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: I got into 40k thanks to the Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, I totally fell in love with the Necrons. 'Undead Space Zombie Robots? Awesomesauce!'
After a few years of being to the game & reading the fluff from the codex & novels, it hurts me to admit it but Newcrons are the 'lamest' faction. I don't blame Matt Ward of most of the reason why the Crons aren't as engaging, at their start it seems that the faction was poorly forced into the setting.
Oldcrons had the mystery & elements of horror to make them interesting.
The Newcrons backstory is fairly bland & doesn't set the tone of an Ancient Evil ready to awake & visit Doom on the foolish mortals. Instead the Newcrons motives are like a Saturday cartoon villains, 'They want to take over the Galaxy' Yawn... Why Undead Space Zombie Robots need all that real estate is beyond me.
They want their old empire back. They are basically the Wh40k's version of the crotchety old guy with the shotgun.
I do miss their objective of turning everyone into robots. Capturing people so they can find out how to be fleshy again doesn't quite have the same impact. It's tragic in a sort of way, but it's not that terrifying.
Grey Knights are just Space Marines "turned up to 11", in pretty much every way. Space Marines were already the overblown faction, and then they gave them have better versions.
Newcrons I also hate. Necrons used to be the mechanical version of the Tyranids. Noone knew much about them, of they knew of them AT ALL. They were mindless servants of ancient, vastly powerful life-essence star-vampires who consumed suns, but thankfully were nearly all extinct. Once you realized the how and why of the Necrons, you had to be constantly in fear of whether your austere peaceful planet had an ancient evil slumbering deep underground. They even captured psychic blanks to experiment on to make into Pariahs, who are now just "Lychguard", elite troops with staffs.
Now they are Tomb-Kings who were so powerful they killed their own "Gods", with access to time travel and technology that can destroy suns with a flip of the switch. Which isn;t bad, until they gave them personalities. You don't personalize an unknowable Eldtritch evil.
Grey Knights are just Space Marines "turned up to 11", in pretty much every way. Space Marines were already the overblown faction, and then they gave them have better versions.
I didn´t vote them because I am unable to see GK as a separate faction. They are another flavor of Space Marines.
Space Marines are among my favorite factions, but if we are to consider Space Marines chapter by chapter, any separate chapter is more boring than a full faction like the Necrons. They are just the same, repeated over and over and over.
I liked the Necrons best before they had a codex, when they were all mystery, but personally I like them now better than when they were just bitches to the C'Tan.
Necrons have always been bad, but Grey Knights actions after the first war for Armageddon just cemented them as lame as hell. (Made me LOVE Space Wolves though)
They are cowards at heart, that hide in shiny silver armor, and horde the best tech possible.
Chaos Daemons are also lame because they belong in with the CSM, not on their own.
I'm potentially heretical here, but I prefer the new Necrons to the old. I like the idea of Necrons as an entire civilization with their own Byzantine internal politics, with personalities, with crazy ancient supertech hobbled by the fact that they're literally crazy ancient and a wee bit out of touch with what's been happening the last kazillion years they were asleep.....As CuthulsSpy said, they're the galaxy's crotchety old man with a shotgun raving at you damn kids to get off his lawn, except this old guy just clawed his way out of the ground in your front yard, his shotgun has an eerie green glow, and he is hollering at you in a long-dead language that human throats were not meant to utter. So basically Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino crossed with Cthulhu.
Grey Knights, feh. Space Marines turned up to 11, to the point all the super-special Mary Sue snowflake stuff inherent in Astartes overcomes the cool factor.
I agree with the space marines as the lamest faction. I do not dislike the entire imperium, imperial guard have some personality with their more human tendencies. Space marines are just bland and predictable.
Tau is by far the lamest faction. They really do not fit in the universe.
I also dislike Space Marines for the fact that they ALWAYS win. It gets really annoying when one Space Marine chops down 5 10,000 year old traitor counterparts like nothing.
Daemons also really don't deserve to be a separate faction.
Just +1 me for Newcrons as well. I don't think I can add much that hasn't been said already. Undead robots with feelings and personalities is just lame at the highest levels.
herpguy wrote: Tau is by far the lamest faction. They really do not fit in the universe.
I also dislike Space Marines for the fact that they ALWAYS win. It gets really annoying when one Space Marine chops down 5 10,000 year old traitor counterparts like nothing.
Daemons also really don't deserve to be a separate faction.
To be honest daemons should be rolled back into the CSM codex (even if that would make an already bloated book even worse), loyalist marines really only deserve one codex, gk should be a supplement and limited (speaking of which where is a small unit of deathwatch yet seriously gw?), and then all should be united in one book to fight necrons
herpguy wrote: Tau is by far the lamest faction. They really do not fit in the universe.
I also dislike Space Marines for the fact that they ALWAYS win. It gets really annoying when one Space Marine chops down 5 10,000 year old traitor counterparts like nothing.
Daemons also really don't deserve to be a separate faction.
To be honest daemons should be rolled back into the CSM codex (even if that would make an already bloated book even worse), loyalist marines really only deserve one codex, gk should be a supplement and limited (speaking of which where is a small unit of deathwatch yet seriously gw?), and then all should be united in one book to fight necrons
Exactly. Space marines are really only spread out for money grabbing purposes. CSM have way more diversity than loyalists and actually would warrant a few books. I think Daemons should be back in CSM but like you said that would just worsen the CSM problem.
Grey Knights are just Space Marines "turned up to 11", in pretty much every way. Space Marines were already the overblown faction, and then they gave them have better versions.
In defense of the Grey Knights, they were never supposed to be an army. GW is just GW, and saw the potential to make a ton of money, lol.
The idea behind the Grey Knights was a single chapter beholden to the Inquisition made entirely up of hand-picked and rigorously trained Marines who are specially equipped to fight demons. They fit into the setting just fine. In fact they fit into it perfectly. The problem is that when they became the flavor of the month army, they became commonplace on the tabletop. But Grey Knights have been part of the 40K fluff for twenty years at least. It's not like they suddenly made them up.
Basically the Grey Knights are just over-represented in the game, so it flies at odds with the way their fluff was always described. This can obviously create the disconnect you're feeling. But, like I continue to say, the game is not an accurate representation of the universe. It's just a set of rules designed to sell plastic toy soldiers and fight pretend battles between evenly matched troops on neutral terrain.
uk_crow wrote: Another vote for Necrons, as a faction they define the phrase Mary Sue.
Mary Sue is really the most abused term in 40K, lol. A Mary Sue is a character which is a self-insertion of the author, and an idealized character. I don't think anyone at Games Workshop imagines themselves as an evil Egyptian space robot. I mean, it's fairly ridiculous when people refer to the Ultramarines as Mary Sues because it's also typically wrong, but the Necrons are just poorly written Grimdark^10. They're not Mary Sues.
Grey Knights are just Space Marines "turned up to 11", in pretty much every way. Space Marines were already the overblown faction, and then they gave them have better versions.
In defense of the Grey Knights, they were never supposed to be an army. GW is just GW, and saw the potential to make a ton of money, lol.
The idea behind the Grey Knights was a single chapter beholden to the Inquisition made entirely up of hand-picked and rigorously trained Marines who are specially equipped to fight demons. They fit into the setting just fine. In fact they fit into it perfectly. The problem is that when they became the flavor of the month army, they became commonplace on the tabletop. But Grey Knights have been part of the 40K fluff for twenty years at least. It's not like they suddenly made them up.
Basically the Grey Knights are just over-represented in the game, so it flies at odds with the way their fluff was always described. This can obviously create the disconnect you're feeling. But, like I continue to say, the game is not an accurate representation of the universe. It's just a set of rules designed to sell plastic toy soldiers and fight pretend battles between evenly matched troops on neutral terrain.
Believe me, I know they didn't suddenly "make them up". I remember when Grey Knights were much more interesting when they were a single Terminator squad as a choice (I have a squad of the ancient 2nd edition metals). Then GW decided, "we should make them into an army that is comparable to Space Marines, like Space marines are comparable to regular humans. That would be extra-cool!" So we got Draigo and Grey Knights painting their armor with the blood of Adeptus Sororitas. Whuh???
Silverthorne wrote: Necrons. Every species has to have some sort of existential threat to be interesting. Or at least a weakness. They got nothing.
They do have a threat - they are going insane. Or more accurately and in keeping with the "angry old man with a shotgun" theme, senile. Their minds are slowly being whittled away due to their mechanical bodies. Which is why they want to be organic again.
1) Their conscientious was transferred to canoptek units.
2) The C'tan had bacon
3) The necrontyr used some sort of hyper-aging machine, to ensure that someone is always capable of breeding. This offsets the fact that they always had such short life spans due to their crappy environments.
4) No babies. Like, they are born adults. I don't know how, but they are aliens, so there may be weird biology involved.
uk_crow wrote: Another vote for Necrons, as a faction they define the phrase Mary Sue.
Mary Sue is really the most abused term in 40K, lol. A Mary Sue is a character which is a self-insertion of the author, and an idealized character. I don't think anyone at Games Workshop imagines themselves as an evil Egyptian space robot. I mean, it's fairly ridiculous when people refer to the Ultramarines as Mary Sues because it's also typically wrong, but the Necrons are just poorly written Grimdark^10. They're not Mary Sues.
Haha well they are too perfect then, huge numbers, the best tech (by a considerable margin) and a boring back story.
uk_crow wrote: Another vote for Necrons, as a faction they define the phrase Mary Sue.
Mary Sue is really the most abused term in 40K, lol. A Mary Sue is a character which is a self-insertion of the author, and an idealized character. I don't think anyone at Games Workshop imagines themselves as an evil Egyptian space robot. I mean, it's fairly ridiculous when people refer to the Ultramarines as Mary Sues because it's also typically wrong, but the Necrons are just poorly written Grimdark^10. They're not Mary Sues.
Haha well they are too perfect then, huge numbers, the best tech (by a considerable margin) and a boring back story.
Huge numbers? Really? The IoM and Orks outnumber them by a fair margin. Hell, the Eldar probably outnumber them.
Do they? I mean, in theory, if you only count the "awake" Necrons. But the Newcrons have supposedly a million sleeping worlds or some such that are on the verge of waking up.
Being outnumbered by a small margin is fairly irrelevant when you're nearly unkillable.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Do they? I mean, in theory, if you only count the "awake" Necrons. But the Newcrons have supposedly a million sleeping worlds or some such that are on the verge of waking up.
Being outnumbered by a small margin is fairly irrelevant when you're nearly unkillable.
Those million worlds also tend to have imperials and orks on them. Billions of them. The idea behind the necrons is that there aren't that many of them compared to the other races, but they are so hard to kill it balances out in the end. It's not as if a necron regenerates all damage on the spot anyway. Hurt one enough and it goes away, where it has to spend time getting repaired. That's one less necron on the world.
All of the fluff tends points to them being huge in numbers. It doesn't really matter if the worlds have huge amounts of orks and humans on them, normally the necrons just wipe them out. As a faction they are boring with completely unbalanced fluff, hence in my opinion they are the lamest faction.
I realize my opinions will probably open me up to some flaming, but here goes.
Space Marines are admittedly pretty bland most of the time, but if you really dislike them, then I think you're forgetting a lot of what this hobby was built upon AND that they are there to appeal to a broad audience and to be marketable. They are supposed to be more badass than the most badass dude you can think of. That story will get old and bland sure, but to me, it doesn't make them any less awesome. There wouldn't be 40k without SMs. Don't fool yourself. This game would've fallen flat on its face without them. Is that mostly because 12 year old boys love them? Yes and that's okay.
Chaos demons look silly, but are a pretty damn integral part to all of 40k. I also completely disagree with them being in the CSM 'dex. Remember, most traitor CSMs are not necessarily associated with the ruinous powers, they've just been outcast or black listed by the inquisition.
I don't understand the tyranid hate. They have genestealers, who kick ass. And why wouldn't they have a living space ship? They're alien monsters. They're not going to build a metal and electro-fusion, hovering, intergalactic space ship.
I mean, that would just be silly.
Necrons are probably some of the lamest now, but everyone seems to be forgetting Vespids. Vespids are the dumbest thing out there that we see and have GW-allowed access to. Bug men (sort of) with bits and pieces of tau armor, but mostly just on their face and not their stomach or abdomen.
Though in the end, I like them all (not vespids). For some reason part of the fluff for each pulls at some part of me. Maybe I've been at it too long and seen the weird revisions over time, but it is what it is.
I like the theory that the Vespid "communication" helmet is actually a mind-control device. The Tau saw their usefulness to the military (and their natural resources), but after being unable to communicate or reconcile things with them, just decided to dominate their wills "for the Greater Good". You are "communicating" with them, if communicating means "giving irresistible orders to head towards enemy gunfire", or "mine those minerals for our guns".
I'm quite a fan of the expanded Necrons fluff that I've read as it's pretty in depth and interesting but I'm happy to admit that it is a bit over the top. They're the oldest race so it makes sense they have superior technology to the younger ones but I don't really like the idea that they could snuff out stars and systems as easily as you're led to believe, there has to be some balance. Bar that I prefer the newer stuff as it takes them from a faceless and unknowable enemy to something tangible and relatable, if seemingly unconquerable.
SisterSydney wrote: So basically Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino crossed with Cthulhu..
Brilliant!
Tau need a more grimdark back-story, the Greater Good stuff doesn't wash with me.
An earlier poster wrote that he doesn't like the idea of Tyranids having bio-projectile weapons and bio-space ships but I completely disagree. For a race who have evolved for Emperor knows how long from a galaxy far, far away it makes logical sense that they would develop these things given a hostile environment and enough time. Reaping entire galaxies won't be without it's dangers and claws wouldn't quite cut it when trying to harvest a planet whose natives can shoot you from afar; any intelligent species would have weapons that work at range so they would adapt to that. Admittedly I have no explanation for their hive ships that can traverse distances between planets let alone galaxies but it makes for a good story.
My least favourite faction would probably be Space Marines because of the aforementioned blandness. They just seem overpowered and too righteous for my liking and the fluff writers and fan-fiction have taken them a bit too far. Also, why have they turned into eloquent Roman Legionnaires with Bolters?
Arcsquad12 wrote: I admit, I liked the idea of Space Marines being drugged up space cops who were little more than psycho murderers in advanced power suits. Beakies ho!
What I meant by chaos daemons being tossed into the CSM codex is because then they'd finally be forced to find some way to synergize them (hopefully). Daemons are an odd thing... they don't really seem like an army fit for 1300 point battles or less (then again this can be argued for several other factions) the seem far more often like the eye is open and they are spewing forth covering the battlefield in multihued colors as they charge forth, are they even charging? It is as though they exist and do not exist at once.... Then again, I'd prefer not to lump a whole entire army into one that already fails at representing its job. Want to produce a warband based around a single legion? Want a legion force to represent shortly after the fall? Want to represent the Word Bearers (they are heavily organized) or the Iron Warriors (they split into the equivelent of chapters)? Want to represent an army of old hard core vets? Honestly you can't. Heck, the black legion sucks at representing the black legion! Cult troops don't have any other form and the internal balance makes khorne a mediocre pick and Tzeentch an absolutely brain dead decision, tzeentch sorcerers are probably the worst psykers in the game and almost all of Tzeentch's spells are witchfire... So does it represent the old legions? Well obviously not because of all that, grav guns, whirlwinds, and other weapons from pre-heresy (speaking of which wouldn't chaos have some pre-heresy tech heck more than loyalists?). So are they the new ones? Nope! No thunder hammers, storm shields, instantly cowardly units, loss of every weapon of the imperium... Most traitor CSM are not necessarily associated with ruinous powers except the fact that all of them must declare a challenge and get random boons.
I agree with Moltar that chaos daemons look silly but are important. I certainly think they deserve a codex more than certain loyalist factions (cough Space Marine+ and ++ and +++ and ++++). Bah, now you reminded me how much I miss the old pink horror models. Not the ones with the goofy hands. No, the ones that were flesh heaps with maws open that had maws within that ran around some ripping hteir own mouths apart as two blue horrors began to writhe out... ah.... and now we are just majin buu....
I like tyranids but I guess it is just because living space ships sounds silly? Probably broke their suspension of disbelief. Admittedly they do have the entire we are the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 forces coming from space and we have eaten several galaxies. I'll admit, that does make them sound kind of silly and if it weren't for necrons I'd have to admit they were the guys that stole the thunder of everybody (I head canon them to be an equal threat as Chaos and Necrons. I like a triangle of doom )
soooooo can we have a necron recon again to make them back into chaos robots? kiddin. I dunno, I found the old necrons to be kind of crummy. They still had the, we are invinceable and we have GODS that are just as strong as the chaos daemons within the warp except we are in the real world. Chaos can be mighty as hell, they can be so strong they can rip apart a materium but that doesn't really matter as their influence on our realm is far more limited. I just found it silly that C'tan w ere basically what Chaos gods was to the warp. Also, old necrons suffered from we are robonids. I liked the lovecraft hints. And then the new update has made them.... more OTT and I can't imagine how you could do that.
Blah! YYou know I hardly remembered what vespids even looked like xD
I have been playing Necrons since they came out, have every model except the triarch stalker, even have a Necron BFG fleet. I can say with authority that they never contradicted the fluff over the years, but even I don't like the direction the story went. I was hoping just for soulless robots that had turned on their masters. In fact I didn't even want them to be evil, but just emotionless and dangerous like Terminators or Borg. All the stuff with the C'tan bothers me on a deep level.
Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
Loyalist marines are at least badass in their own way, even if they're overdone to the point of me simply being bored at seeing them on the field. But the traitor ones... strike me as anything but.
Techically, they are angry at their "grand pa", because their "dads" got angry at him for...reasons.
So really, the primarchs are a bunch of whiny manly man-children. The Chaos Marines just decided to take after their them, because that's how they were raised / created.
Factor in slaaneshi worship, and you have quite the Freudian cluster-feth
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
She was talking in their sense of their augmentations and the source of their gene-seed, not their exact biological origins.
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
She was talking in their sense of their augmentations and the source of their gene-seed, not their exact biological origins.
Getting their geneseed from a primarch does not make a CSM the emperor's son.
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
She was talking in their sense of their augmentations and the source of their gene-seed, not their exact biological origins.
Getting their geneseed from a primarch does not make a CSM the emperor's son.
Nope. Closure to his grand son, since that primarch got his genetic material from the emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Most people who talk to me about CSMs always talk about the legions, and therfor that is what I was referring to.
Mind you,even the renegades strike me as pathetic, just less so than the legions.
Well, that's kind of the point. They are ordinary people who were seduced by the promise of power and betrayed their own race to further their own ends. History is full of that.
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
She was talking in their sense of their augmentations and the source of their gene-seed, not their exact biological origins.
Getting their geneseed from a primarch does not make a CSM the emperor's son.
Nope. Closure to his grand son, since that primarch got his genetic material from the emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Most people who talk to me about CSMs always talk about the legions, and therfor that is what I was referring to.
Mind you,even the renegades strike me as pathetic, just less so than the legions.
Well, that's kind of the point. They are ordinary people who were seduced by the promise of power and betrayed their own race to further their own ends. History is full of that.
What's your point? Still doesn't make the emperor the chaos marines father.
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
What are you going on about? For any CSM who isn't a Daemon Primarch their "dad" is just their normal human father from before their augmentations [not the emperor as you might think]
She was talking in their sense of their augmentations and the source of their gene-seed, not their exact biological origins.
Getting their geneseed from a primarch does not make a CSM the emperor's son.
Nope. Closure to his grand son, since that primarch got his genetic material from the emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Most people who talk to me about CSMs always talk about the legions, and therfor that is what I was referring to.
Mind you,even the renegades strike me as pathetic, just less so than the legions.
Well, that's kind of the point. They are ordinary people who were seduced by the promise of power and betrayed their own race to further their own ends. History is full of that.
What's your point? Still doesn't make the emperor the chaos marines father.
Symbolically it does. A man gives away his life as a human to be reborn as a Space Marine. He was originally human, and still technically is. But as soon as the gene-seeds are implanted and he gets all of those fancy new organs, you can't really call him human. That's one of the little ironies of the IoM; they hate mutants and non-humans, and yet rely on them.
sing your life wrote: What's your point? Still doesn't make the emperor the chaos marines father.
Literally no. FIguratively, yes, he is the "father" of all Marines. Or perhaps grandfather would be more appropriate, but regardless, the Space Marines treat him as such, both loyalist and traitor, in their own ways. Not always quite maturely, either.
I have been playing Necrons since they came out, have every model except the triarch stalker, even have a Necron BFG fleet. I can say with authority that they never contradicted the fluff over the years, but even I don't like the direction the story went. I was hoping just for soulless robots that had turned on their masters. In fact I didn't even want them to be evil, but just emotionless and dangerous like Terminators or Borg. All the stuff with the C'tan bothers me on a deep level.
I agree. Though I liked the former version of the C'Tan being eldritch star-gods versus the "Shards". It was almost like they were the "Queens" to the Necron's "Borg". And I really liked how the Necrons, originally, were simply the mechanical counterpart to the Tyranids. They were a blight on the civilizations of the galaxy, but like the 'Nids they were motivated by seemingly-unknowable purposes, which made them all the scarier. Now with the updated fluff they are too personalized,other than the single dynasty that is like their original version.
And then GW did wierd things to their tech-level. They nerfed the superiority of their ships, but then gave them machines that can destroy suns with a flip of the switch.
I have been playing Necrons since they came out, have every model except the triarch stalker, even have a Necron BFG fleet. I can say with authority that they never contradicted the fluff over the years, but even I don't like the direction the story went. I was hoping just for soulless robots that had turned on their masters. In fact I didn't even want them to be evil, but just emotionless and dangerous like Terminators or Borg. All the stuff with the C'tan bothers me on a deep level.
I agree. Though I liked the former version of the C'Tan being eldritch star-gods versus the "Shards". It was almost like they were the "Queens" to the Necron's "Borg". And I really liked how the Necrons, originally, were simply the mechanical counterpart to the Tyranids. They were a blight on the civilizations of the galaxy, but like the 'Nids they were motivated by seemingly-unknowable purposes, which made them all the scarier. Now with the updated fluff they are too personalized,other than the single dynasty that is like their original version.
And then GW did wierd things to their tech-level. They nerfed the superiority of their ships, but then gave them machines that can destroy suns with a flip of the switch.
No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.
CSM - I just cannot get into their fluff. I go cross-eyed anytime I read anything about them. The idea of them was great for the Heresy, but once that was done, they should have been consumed by the warp - leaving just demons as the agents of chaos.
GK/SM - I feel like there should be a middle ground of rarity and power between GK and SM that are really where a single faction of elite power armored super humans occupy. GK are just too over the top and SM are just too common and ever present.
Necrons - Again, there are great bits in both the oldcrons and newcrons that would make them really one of the most interesting factions in 40k for me in the right combinations. It just isn't quite there at the moment. A little more mystery, a little less time travel and "we can snuff out any star when we want to" type of plot hammer tech.
Tau - They needed to push these guys a little further down the grimdark path.
No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.
I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?
Intertia-less drives were reintroduced in a new Imperial Armor book.
That said, even when they lacked FTL capabilities, the Necron fleet was still very powerful. Not very fast, sure, but very durable and armed with powerful weaponry.
Okay yeah Necrons for lamest faction :U Sorry just... faster? Time controlling? Better tech? STAR DESTROYING? killing close to god levels? Re-animations from obscene amounts of damage? MILLIONS of planets with them hidden within making them a large number? super damaging tech that blows up because best tech? Shut down warp? have access to the webway (certain parts at least)? have ana astronmer that can outpredict every other guy it seems and unlike Tzeentch whom is arguably equally as capable is more open about it. Tzeentch can have it cause tzeentch will only really ever tell part of the truth but wat? have anti-psyker and realm nonsense that feths with things? Just sorry it is all just... too much
No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.
I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?
Imperial Armor returns them to the status of being WTF?! level of power. Don't worry, your tin men are still more than capable of smacking the Imperium all the way up the galaxy and all the way down again.
That's fine with me! I actually have a BFG fleet, as much as a bear as it is to fight against them.
As an aside with Necrons, surely I am not the only one that thinks GW missed a huge fluff opportunity when they first fleshed out the Necrons. I personaly think it would have been a very interesting trip if they had turned out to be awakening remnants of the Iron Men, back for revenge on the Humans. Literally everything about the Necrons could have been the same, save for the removal of their age and the C'Tan, to be replaced by them being "an eldritch and horrible remnant of the Golden Age of Humanity, now awakening after going into stasis to escape the purge after failing to win their war against their creators".
The "millions of years" old part always kind of irked me. Hundreds of thousands would have been just fine, but it just seems like the age of Necrons fell victim to GW's ever-inflating numbers on everything.
The "millions of years" old part always kind of irked me. Hundreds of thousands would have been just fine, but it just seems like the age of Necrons fell victim to GW's ever-inflating numbers on everything.
Fluff-wise, I think that the Necrons' age helps explain why their tech is so wicked. It's also something of a Lovecraftian theme to make a mysterious and powerful being or entity be millions of years old, a time-span inconceivable to the human mind, rather than hundreds of thousands of years, which is only slightly older than humanity itself. Their age is a testament to their significance I suppose. Sleeping for just a few hundred thousand years wasn't as impressive, I guess?
Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.
Huge numbers? Really? The IoM and Orks outnumber them by a fair margin. Hell, the Eldar probably outnumber them.
There are millions of Tomb Worlds.
They outnumber every other race save the Tyranids and Orks.
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Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
Loyalist marines are at least badass in their own way, even if they're overdone to the point of me simply being bored at seeing them on the field. But the traitor ones... strike me as anything but.
Thousand Sons: Fell to survive.
Emperor's Children: Fell because Slaanesh corrupted their minds and souls.
Death Guard: Fell because they are just sinister. Turned to Nurgle out of desperation to survive.
World Eaters: Fell because their Primarch is insane. Also, it must be said that the Emperor did not help things by antagonizing Angron, and did in fact plan to allow the Butcher's Nails to slowly kill him, not wanting to spend the effort to cure him. The Emperor is stupid.
Night Lords: Read above.
Iron Warriors: Old fluff, largely fell because they were a Legion of sinister sociopaths. Newer fluff is a bit more complex, Perturabo left the Emperor's side because he thought only Horus would condone his recent actions.
Word Bearers: Fell due to a crisis of Faith caused by the Emperor, and admittedly because Lorgar was, by canon, the weakest-willed of the Primarchs. You might have a point with this guy.
Luna Wolves: Yeah, this one is mostly just Horus being a pussy.
Iron Warriors fell because the guys wearing yellow got more recognition, and their panties got in a twist about it. That has always been the backstory behind it.
Void__Dragon wrote: (...)
World Eaters: Fell because their Primarch is insane. Also, it must be said that the Emperor did not help things by antagonizing Angron, and did in fact plan to allow the Butcher's Nails to slowly kill him, not wanting to spend the effort to cure him. The Emperor is stupid.
Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.
Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.
Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.
I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.
Iron Warriors: Old fluff, largely fell because they were a Legion of sinister sociopaths. Newer fluff is a bit more complex, Perturabo left the Emperor's side because he thought only Horus would condone his recent actions.
I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.
Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.
Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.
Word Bearers: Fell due to a crisis of Faith caused by the Emperor, and admittedly because Lorgar was, by canon, the weakest-willed of the Primarchs. You might have a point with this guy.
It was a matter of faith.
And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.
Luna Wolves: Yeah, this one is mostly just Horus being a pussy.
Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.
There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.
Alpha Legion: Fell because Alpharius is stupid.
Agreed.
I blame this on the newest fluff. The Index Astartes was fine.
So which ones fell because they were whiny again?
I have the impression that Marines, and Primarchs by extension, are 12 years old teenagers from an emotional point of view. They lack everything that makes an adult adult. They are not humans after all.
Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.
Technically, the chaos gods have always existed, as the Warp's boundaries are not affected by time. They only became sentient after humanity came along, but they can affect past events.
Which is how there is a Daemon Prince who is said to have existed since the dawn of time.
Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.
Technically, the chaos gods have always existed, as the Warp's boundaries are not affected by time. They only became sentient after humanity came along, but they can affect past events.
Which is how there is a Daemon Prince who is said to have existed since the dawn of time.
In other words, the gods of chaos were being formed, became to be, then Doctor Who became a big thing on earth and somehow influenced them by introducing them to timey whimey shenanigans to be at all points but not cause the warp!
I know it isn't a popular opinion and most will disagree with me, but to me, the lamest faction is Orks. I've never liked them. To me they do not fit the setting at all. They are a joke race, and not a funny one at that. In a sci-fi universe, you have these primitive barbarians with no goals beyond just fighting. And they are actually considered a serious threat! To me, it feels like they only reason they are even in the game world is that they were grandfathered in from original editions, back when the game was less 'serious' in tone. Now, they no longer belong.
Even their physical appearance is out of place. When I look at any artwork, or even a game in progress on the tabletop, it looks like someone has accidentally placed a character from some other setting by mistake.
Cryogen wrote: I know it isn't a popular opinion and most will disagree with me, but to me, the lamest faction is Orks. I've never liked them. To me they do not fit the setting at all. They are a joke race, and not a funny one at that. In a sci-fi universe, you have these primitive barbarians with no goals beyond just fighting. And they are actually considered a serious threat! To me, it feels like they only reason they are even in the game world is that they were grandfathered in from original editions, back when the game was less 'serious' in tone. Now, they no longer belong.
Even their physical appearance is out of place. When I look at any artwork, or even a game in progress on the tabletop, it looks like someone has accidentally placed a character from some other setting by mistake.
Well, they aren't primitive.
Their technology is crude, but functional, and in some cases (Like the Shokk Attack Gun) revolutionary.
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da001 wrote: Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.
I've read After De'Shea, and do not recall this being said in this many words.
Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.
Indeed.
Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.
Specifically, he said that were the Butcher's Nails not making him an "immoral man", he would be obliged to do so himself.
I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.
I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. I like to think that the Emperor's mistakes were a result of simply being so far above humanity that he could not truly understand them. His psychic might was so great that it compensated for a lack of real charisma among mortals, but among his sons, who were not so easily influenced, all it did was turn them against him.
I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.
Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.
Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.
You read Angel Exterminatus?
It was a matter of faith.
And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.
Lorgar is insane. He hears voices, the Chaos Gods have been whispering in his ear and directing his life since he was an infant. He was their toy since the day he was sped into the Warp.
Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.
There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.
True, but ultimately, his tipping point was seeing a future where people don't build statues of him or revere him as their demigodlike sex doll.
No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.
I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?
Their ships were retconned to being very slow for interstellar travel without access to the webway. Their combat speeds were never explicitly changed though.
BlaxicanX wrote: Intertia-less drives were reintroduced in a new Imperial Armor book.
da001 wrote: Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.
I've read After De'Shea, and do not recall this being said in this many words.
Yep. But it is heavily implied.
He kept talking about the Emperor as a tyrant, and at the end he asked to whom did the War Hounds swear to follow him ("we are your instrument and yours to command (...) you are our Primarch. Not just our commander, but our bloodsire, our fountain head"). He specifically asked if that oath was to the Emperor, and accepted to be their leader after Kharn answered "we swore to each other".
Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.
Indeed.
Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.
Specifically, he said that were the Butcher's Nails not making him an "immoral man", he would be obliged to do so himself.
I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.
I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. I like to think that the Emperor's mistakes were a result of simply being so far above humanity that he could not truly understand them. His psychic might was so great that it compensated for a lack of real charisma among mortals, but among his sons, who were not so easily influenced, all it did was turn them against him.
I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.
Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.
Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.
You read Angel Exterminatus?
I have. Sort of meh. Liked the way Perturabo and Fulgrim are described, deeply disliked the "survivors of the drop site massacre" subplot.
No reason is given for the rebellion on Olympia. But there is a flashback with Perturabo climbing to the fortress of Lochos, and the guards calling the Tyrant. The name Dammekos -aka the Tyrant of Lochos- is used. Move forward to Horus Heresy, and Olympia is already destroyed. So the Index Astartes is not retconned, just ignored. The book also describes Perturabo lacking interest in being a general, a leader or a conqueror. He likes to build things, which fits the previous background.
I also found found it extra fluffy that Perturabo willingly swore allegiance to Horus when he decided to side with him, while Fulgrim didn´t.
It was a matter of faith.
And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.
Lorgar is insane. He hears voices, the Chaos Gods have been whispering in his ear and directing his life since he was an infant. He was their toy since the day he was sped into the Warp.
The Chaos Gods have many toys, that they spend and waste power into. But they are useless to them in the long run.
Those who freely give them their loyalty are the most worthy Champion of Chaos. The gods need a decision, "by your own will", to damn your soul. It is not funny, nor useful for them to force people to do things. Lorgar was manipulated and lied, but at the end it was his decision, taken by him and him alone, what kicked off the Horus Heresy.
An interpretation, of course. Kor Phaeron was the most obvious influence on Lorgar since he was a child. It is interesting to compare the relationships between Perturabo/Dammekos, Lorgar/Kor Phaeron and The Lion/Luther.
Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.
There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.
True, but ultimately, his tipping point was seeing a future where people don't build statues of him or revere him as their demigodlike sex doll.
Using your own words: "I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. " Horus clearly behaves like a spoiled brat and an idiot, but there are enough... blind spots in their reasonings to allow me to believe that there is something more interesting inside.
Perhaps his tipping point was thinking that, once the war was won, his only reason to exist will be waiting for his father to die and inherit the throne. And his father had been about 45000 years around at that point.
The only Primarch who was written as a total idiot was Alpharius. Funny enough, it is the only traitor Primarch which original (and awesome) background from Index Astartes was retconned. Not a coincidence.
If I may quote myself from another thread; The fluff of Grey Knights is that they're supposed to be the fearless monster slayers of the 40k. Thanks to a certain someone, they are now girl slaughtering cowardly sociopaths who started worshiping Khorne (poorly and without martial honor) and are too inbred to realize it
Not really a faction, but I hate Ratlings. How the hell do you figure dwarf bikers with machine guns and power armor are silly, but then keep pervy hobbits that steal spoons.
Truth118 wrote: To me, probably Space Marines with Tau a close second, although they're the most popular. They're the generic human warriors in power armor.
In a sci-fi universe, although the Imperium in 40k has its own style that's come to grow on me, dudes in brightly-colored armor with large, blocky guns rate low on the totem pole. They're simply not different and unique enough imo.
I don't dislike any of the races in 40k, fluff or tabletop (okay, maybe Tau), but Space Marines are somewhat lame to me.
You can't really call it unoriginal or cliche when they're the ones that really kicked it off. (as in popular and wide spread) The whole game was started around them and for them. Its like saying I love Star Trek but this whole "go where no man has gone before thing" is soooo done before. What a rip-off!"
Melissia wrote: Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.
Loyalist marines are at least badass in their own way, even if they're overdone to the point of me simply being bored at seeing them on the field. But the traitor ones... strike me as anything but.
I concur, supporting the Chaosguys seems to be like supporting a bunch of emo-teens with Daddy issues.
Cryogen wrote: I know it isn't a popular opinion and most will disagree with me, but to me, the lamest faction is Orks. I've never liked them. To me they do not fit the setting at all. They are a joke race, and not a funny one at that. In a sci-fi universe, you have these primitive barbarians with no goals beyond just fighting. And they are actually considered a serious threat! To me, it feels like they only reason they are even in the game world is that they were grandfathered in from original editions, back when the game was less 'serious' in tone. Now, they no longer belong.
Even their physical appearance is out of place. When I look at any artwork, or even a game in progress on the tabletop, it looks like someone has accidentally placed a character from some other setting by mistake.
I can understand if someone dislikes the Orks, but by no means are they out of place in the setting.
Chaos Daemons as a stand a lone army. I absolutly hate this idea and wish it purged from all existance. I love them when rolled into the Chaos codex, but as a stand a lone they just have no place.
Second would be Newcrons. I hate the direction of their fluff.
And third. IG. In a setting of super men and aliens and this that and the other, just regular disposable joe is just not that interesting. The only time I ever even contemplated an IG army is if I could do an entire army (including tanks) using Valkyria Chronicles tanks and guys as proxies.
Jayden63 wrote: Chaos Daemons as a stand a lone army. I absolutly hate this idea and wish it purged from all existance. I love them when rolled into the Chaos codex, but as a stand a lone they just have no place.
Second would be Newcrons. I hate the direction of their fluff.
And third. IG. In a setting of super men and aliens and this that and the other, just regular disposable joe is just not that interesting. The only time I ever even contemplated an IG army is if I could do an entire army (including tanks) using Valkyria Chronicles tanks and guys as proxies.
Without the normal guys the "super heroes" would be normal. Personally i hate any army that isnt average joes because, well its utter crap really
IG only really annoys me when the hypocrisy train starts.
'What do you mean, my Guardsmen carving apart those Nobz in melee is unfluffy? It's very fluffy! No, Guardsmen should not be removed, they are the weak average joe guys that get stomped by everyone so they have a place in the setting oh wait no they don't get stomped they wreck everyone oh wait yes they are stomped-'
You have a point there. My best take on the IG (whom I love) is "the Guard are the ordinary humans in a setting of superhumans who get stomped and stomped and keep on coming. Sometimes this means they steamroller the superhumans. Sometimes, not so much. But you've got to admire the cojones they have to even try."
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BrotherHaraldus wrote: Or the Sisters, who are, in their basis, a gimmick made into a faction.
As a huge fan of the Sisters, I gotta say you have a point. I think the Sisters have transcended this origin, but the way GW handles the Sisters has had Unfortunate Implications from the start.
As I recall, they first showed up in a single sentence in Rogue Trader -- before the Ecclesiarchy had been invented -- as a kind of genetic purity police, swooping down on people with no notice, testing their DNA, and arbitrarily executing them/dragging them away. So there's your "girls are scary," "girls are tattletales/scolds," and "any powerful woman must be an emasculating bitch" stereotypes right there.
Then they become "the girl army": hello, Smurfette Principle! In fact it's even central to their origin story, with the their very existence being to exploit a loophole in "no men under arms" wording of the Decree Passive demilitarizing the church. And they do this without losing the girls are scary/emasculating stuff. They even add a militarized Madonna/Whore Complex: most of them are virginal warrior-nuns, fully clad (albeit in sexualized armor), but those who "fall" are literally stripped nearly naked. BUT now the Sisters can actually fight -- and fight pretty darn well -- instead of just arrest helpless victims, they have powers derived from sheer force of pious will (whether it's "magic" or not is very much left open), and the Joan of Arc imagery bursts into full fleur-de-lis flower. And by now, they've arguably evolved into the best of humanity (at least in 40K military terms): the paradigm of what ordinary, genetically unmodified, non-cyborg humans can become with the best possible training, indoctrination, and equipment.
GW's still struggling with how to handle them, and it sure as hell needs to give them more units, but the Sisters have gone beyond a gimmick now.
Actually, the SoB doesn't really correspond to the smurfette principle. That refers to there being one female character in a predominately male cast. The SoB are an all female force in a setting where it's not unheard of to have female fighters (Eldar, IG, Tau).
It is true that they are the "girl army", but you can't really say all of the armies are guys, which is necessary for the smurfette principle to work. Unless you limit the scope to the Imperium, and even then that's mainly because GW still hasn't worked out how to model female IG.
I think if I fielded a SOB army I would use quite a few spehse maurine models, my logic being that there is no real reason for form fitting power armor. The actual SOB figures I would use would be elites, becuase they have "master crafted" gear of course. This would also save a good deal of money.
I agree with the earlier poster on Orks, but it is not that they are out of place, its that they are not taken seriously enough. I think GW could make Orks much darker and more intimidating.
And third. IG. In a setting of super men and aliens and this that and the other, just regular disposable joe is just not that interesting. The only time I ever even contemplated an IG army is if I could do an entire army (including tanks) using Valkyria Chronicles tanks and guys as proxies.
Yup, because in WH40K fluff you cant see mere human fighting aliens and...oh wait...
Sorry mate, but read the fluff better next time, those average joes are still important part of IoM military activities. And for some people they are veeeery interesting - mainly because of those super men and aliens - and fact they can die when you stab them thousand times with pointy toothpick
For me is sometimes irritating when gamers try to boost their homemade fluffy guardsmen "they are super-recon-shock-sniper specialist and they are famous for killing this daemon and that Exarch and my company commander wrote his name into Magnus' heart!" (and still, they die as easily as my poor footsloggers)
necrondog99 wrote: I think if I fielded a SOB army I would use quite a few spehse maurine models, my logic being that there is no real reason for form fitting power armor. The actual SOB figures I would use would be elites, becuase they have "master crafted" gear of course. This would also save a good deal of money.
I agree with the earlier poster on Orks, but it is not that they are out of place, its that they are not taken seriously enough. I think GW could make Orks much darker and more intimidating.
- J
The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because that's what GW wants them to be. They've said time and time again that 40k isn't a competitive game (or at least implied as much), and making the Orks into a far more serious race would sort of ruin the image GW tries to put out of a game for kids.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, the SoB doesn't really correspond to the smurfette principle. That refers to there being one female character in a predominately male cast. The SoB are an all female force in a setting where it's not unheard of to have female fighters (Eldar, IG, Tau).
It is true that they are the "girl army", but you can't really say all of the armies are guys, which is necessary for the smurfette principle to work. Unless you limit the scope to the Imperium, and even then that's mainly because GW still hasn't worked out how to model female IG.
It looks like a male IG with a slightly more streamlined face and hands.
Because flak armour makes you a flat chest whoever you are.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, the SoB doesn't really correspond to the smurfette principle. That refers to there being one female character in a predominately male cast. The SoB are an all female force in a setting where it's not unheard of to have female fighters (Eldar, IG, Tau).
It is true that they are the "girl army", but you can't really say all of the armies are guys, which is necessary for the smurfette principle to work. Unless you limit the scope to the Imperium, and even then that's mainly because GW still hasn't worked out how to model female IG.
It looks like a male IG with a slightly more streamlined face and hands.
Because flak armour makes you a flat chest whoever you are.
Yep. Not sure if GW has made any cadians with those features though.
I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models. Sadly, GW decided that no one likes SL, and so has stopped selling them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, the SoB doesn't really correspond to the smurfette principle. That refers to there being one female character in a predominately male cast. The SoB are an all female force in a setting where it's not unheard of to have female fighters (Eldar, IG, Tau).
It is true that they are the "girl army", but you can't really say all of the armies are guys, which is necessary for the smurfette principle to work. Unless you limit the scope to the Imperium, and even then that's mainly because GW still hasn't worked out how to model female IG.
It looks like a male IG with a slightly more streamlined face and hands.
Because flak armour makes you a flat chest whoever you are.
Yep. Not sure if GW has made any cadians with those features though.
I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models. Sadly, GW decided that no one likes SL, and so has stopped selling them.
As a huge fan of the Sisters, I gotta say you have a point. I think the Sisters have transcended this origin, but the way GW handles the Sisters has had Unfortunate Implications from the start.
When will hotlinking to tvtropes become a banable offense? Please stop the madness! I had things to do today, you jerk.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, the SoB doesn't really correspond to the smurfette principle. That refers to there being one female character in a predominately male cast. The SoB are an all female force in a setting where it's not unheard of to have female fighters (Eldar, IG, Tau).
It is true that they are the "girl army", but you can't really say all of the armies are guys, which is necessary for the smurfette principle to work. Unless you limit the scope to the Imperium, and even then that's mainly because GW still hasn't worked out how to model female IG.
It looks like a male IG with a slightly more streamlined face and hands.
Because flak armour makes you a flat chest whoever you are.
Yep. Not sure if GW has made any cadians with those features though.
I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models. Sadly, GW decided that no one likes SL, and so has stopped selling them.
2 main reasons :
- Non coherent plot armor.
I get the emperor. He's always mighty and unkillable. Same for primarchs. But marines have a history of being dragged between supermen in tank armor being able to bring a whole system on their knees by just showing up (5 guys in a space canoe would suffice) and, at other times, Terminators get mauled like IG penal legion.
I'd like coherency, like a middle between canon fodder and super heroes.
- Poor writing
"And he of legendary bearing drew his ancient and mighty sword, inscripted with the deeds of a thousand heroes before him. Only this gesture was enough to fill the room with his aura of heroism and nobility." And that's a marine. When a captain or, Emperor forbid, a chapter master walks in the room, humans for miles just go drooling on their uniforms.
As for the guard liken them to ants in a way. Highly effecient killing machine where they over whelm "big super bugs" with ease and move on to the next task.
And as for women in soldiers gear, they still have different hip shapes and facial features. Let alone the way the stand and run is a lot different. Its hard to find a real picture of a women in the military because from all the accounts i have read women in the army have short hair, cant find many pictures with that so no real photo comparrissons. But boobs arent all that makes a female look like a female. Its incredibly blatant that all the GWIG are male by stance and shape. Not that its a big deal anyways.
Anyways to the guy who was talking about the guard in a negative way , remember the most deadliest creatures are generally the smallest. The smallest often kill you in the most painful ways too. The guard are the same in my opinion.
'What do you mean, my Guardsmen carving apart those Nobz in melee is unfluffy? It's very fluffy! No, Guardsmen should not be removed, they are the weak average joe guys that get stomped by everyone so they have a place in the setting oh wait no they don't get stomped they wreck everyone oh wait yes they are stomped-'
Ad nauseam.
Make up your minds...
Sometimes they get lucky, more often than not, they don't.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models...
Because there's no way to tell gender under the facemask and body armor? Or did GW actually market "female Steel Legionnaires" at some point?
And they are one of my favorite sets of IG models too. If only because GW is kinda meh at modeling human faces (and I can't paint them for gak).
Because you can't tell
Though knowing GW, they would probably try to market female Steel Legionaires. They would be $10 more, limited edition, and their chests would be approximately 0.5mm further out than usual
I too am terrible at painting human faces. The reason why all of my armies are non-human, really.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models...
Because there's no way to tell gender under the facemask and body armor? Or did GW actually market "female Steel Legionnaires" at some point?
And they are one of my favorite sets of IG models too. If only because GW is kinda meh at modeling human faces (and I can't paint them for gak).
Because you can't tell
Though knowing GW, they would probably try to market female Steel Legionaires. They would be $10 more, limited edition, and their chests would be approximately 0.5mm further out than usual
I too am terribly at painting human faces. The reason why all of my armies are non-human, really.
I'm terrible at it, so my IG cadians all worship Be'lakor (who is black in colour), who by my fluff made them more like him. Blackened. So's I can just slap the basecoat on, paint the guns + armour, and then call it a day.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I guess you can say, however, that there are female Steel Legion soldier models...
Because there's no way to tell gender under the facemask and body armor? Or did GW actually market "female Steel Legionnaires" at some point?
And they are one of my favorite sets of IG models too. If only because GW is kinda meh at modeling human faces (and I can't paint them for gak).
Because you can't tell
Though knowing GW, they would probably try to market female Steel Legionaires. They would be $10 more, limited edition, and their chests would be approximately 0.5mm further out than usual
I too am terribly at painting human faces. The reason why all of my armies are non-human, really.
I'm terrible at it, so my IG cadians all worship Be'lakor (who is black in colour), who by my fluff made them more like him. Blackened. So's I can just slap the basecoat on, paint the guns + armour, and then call it a day.
The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago and just now are coming back with a new codex.
I think it would have been a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Also considering they appear pretty much nowhere in the fluff that I've read.
Khorne's Herald wrote: The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago and just now are coming back with a new codex.
I think it would have been a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Also considering they appear pretty much nowhere in the fluff that I've read.
The book "Helsreach" contains some SoB, and one GK book (the first in an omnibus, iirc) sees the GK working with some SoB.
Khorne's Herald wrote: The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago
They never disappeared, they've always had a section on the GW site for their models, under the 40K armies section.
Yeah, as armies go, they're under-represented in the fluff overall. Though not as much as you'd think, it's just that a lot of fluff about them is in older, more obscure sources.
Daemons. They just don't work as an army for me. As a unit within a Chaos army, with all their sorcerers and cultists, fine. But just an army of daemons, I don't see it. All marching around in their little squads and such. Maybe it's the fact that they're not tied to the SPAAAACE theme. Like... Forest Folk. As a 40k faction.
McNinja wrote: The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because
... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.
Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.
McNinja wrote: The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because
... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.
Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.
*Had to Google "internet meme" to figure out you were calling me stupid and unimaginative. Sorry, I have a spouse for that - but then again what did you expect from a soulless robot? No, Orks are still cartoonish and sculpted like thalidomide mutants with overloaded diapers. Nobody takes them seriously.
BlaxicanX wrote: They're fungus with cockney accents who lose in almost every story they feature in.
They lose so often in fluff because they are such a 'common' foe.
For example, there is a reason that in many SM stories they begin fighting Orks, and then go on to foes like Tyranids or Chaos Marines as the story progresses. The Orks are widespread and, while they are threatening, an invasion of Tyranids or Chaos Marines are on a different level of threat entirely. Of course, Orks are just as capable of being massive threats, what with Waaagh!s and the like, but a small 'build-up' enemy of Daemons or the like simply seems to work less well and be less plausible than its Ork counterpart.
This is, of course, in part due to their motivation and modus operandi. When the Daemons invade a world, they [i]mean[i/] it. It is not nice to be on that planet. The Orks, on the other hand, are happy to go on small warbands that a local garrison has a chance of containing, and often stick around even after seemingly being wiped out.
Tyranids, on a model basis are the lamest, they still hold 'guns', the ones with claws and guns implemented into their body better are cool, but I just can't get pass the gaunts holding guns=LAME!
Fluff wise, necrons by and large; if I had to pick between the two, it'll be nids.
And third. IG. In a setting of super men and aliens and this that and the other, just regular disposable joe is just not that interesting. The only time I ever even contemplated an IG army is if I could do an entire army (including tanks) using Valkyria Chronicles tanks and guys as proxies.
Yup, because in WH40K fluff you cant see mere human fighting aliens and...oh wait...
Sorry mate, but read the fluff better next time, those average joes are still important part of IoM military activities. And for some people they are veeeery interesting - mainly because of those super men and aliens - and fact they can die when you stab them thousand times with pointy toothpick
For me is sometimes irritating when gamers try to boost their homemade fluffy guardsmen "they are super-recon-shock-sniper specialist and they are famous for killing this daemon and that Exarch and my company commander wrote his name into Magnus' heart!" (and still, they die as easily as my poor footsloggers)
I never said they were not important. I said they are boring. If I wanted normal guys in normal tanks etc, there are dozens of other war games that I could choose. With just as good or better fluff and better rules. This thread is about opinion anyway, so yeah, I find the IG sorta lame and uninteresting. I wouldn't remove them from the game because I can understand why someone would like them, however, that someone is just not me.
Have to give my vote to SM, its just that their so OTT in fluff. Might be a bit biased, hobbying with my little evil versions. But the way loyalists massacre through their traitor counterparts makes it seem like chapters are defecting left and right just to keep the traitor numbers up. Off course almost every army suffers from OTT marines butchering their most elite without breaking a sweat, but these guys are supposed to be their evil on par counterpart.
For the models I have to give it to CSM, the different kits with the 6th edition make regular marines look silly with their spiky bits (especially the helmets). Also the addition of dinobots, I bought a Heldrake just for the punch in my fluffy list, but I just cant bear to play it anymore.
Dakkamite wrote: I can understand if someone dislikes the Orks, but by no means are they out of place in the setting.
If Tau are "out of place" then Orks definitely are. I mean seriously, the 40k universe is too dark, too gothic, too "serious" for an "anime" race like Tau, but not a joke race like Orks? And they are a joke, they are straight-up comic relief: have been since they were introduced and have remained as such through 40k's life span despite any attempts by GW or others to try and change that (which I'm not convinced ever happened, they've always been goofy and stupid and I don't recall GW making any real attempt to dial that back). You simply can't make Orks scary, not with all the goofy gak they say and do in the fluff, games, etc. (they became memes for a reason), and definitely not when their biggest and most "intimidating" models are walking dick jokes. This tongue-in-cheek humor might have fit in okay in Rogue Trader, but it doesn't work in 40k.
GW has this all set up as if you're supposed to take it all deathly serious: it's the 11th hour and hell and damnation are all that await you. There's no hope left, no salvation, only death and despair. Your god is a corpse and all your prayers fall on deaf ears. When you inevitably die, slowly, horribly, painfully, there are alien gods and daemons both chomping at the bit to claim your pathetic soul for their own. You are a pawn: insignificant, worthless, a play thing for beings you can't even comprehend, and no one's going to miss you.
And then there's the Orks. "OI! Boyz! Stop muckin' about and start krumpin' some 'umies, you zoggin' GITS!", "Right, boss! 'ere we go! WAAAGH!"...and then a bunch of WHF Orcs with guns run across the battlefield with a giant dick robot waddling behind them firing dick bombs at people, flanked by giant walking trashcans and other army's models with random garbage glued to them.
But I can't play my Tau, because they don't "fit in". They're not "dark enough". Feth that.
Tau fit in just fine, especially with all the subtle changes GW have made to their fluff over the years: they have been making them darker, just not in the way that most people would apparently notice, with blood, skulls, and spikes glued to the models. Maybe the models look "out of place" but I think we've already established that doesn't matter, since Orks also look out of place and people like them fine. Eldar especially look out of place, more than Tau even, but just like Orks they were in Rogue Trader and so they've been grandfathered in, even though they don't "deserve" it in my opinoin because from the start they were both just very lazy port-overs from WHF. At least Tau are a little more "original" than that...I say that knowing full well that GW shamelessly copied everything about them from other sources, but in the sense that they aren't just "(Insert Fantasy Race Here) in Spaaace!"? Yeah. And speaking of Eldar, literally the only leg people have to stand on there, other than "You can't get rid of Eldar because they were in RT!", is that they're a "dying race"...really? That's it? I've heard literally nothing else, just "Eldar fit because dying race!" Okay, all I have to say to that is "So what?" Technically most races in 40k are "dying" races, even the fledgling Tau, since as I said before "It's the 11th hour, doom, despair, blah blah blah". They're as fethed as everyone else, they just don't know it yet. So if that's all it takes to fit in then I'll say it again, Tau fit in just fine. So do anthropomorphic space rats and highly intelligent space orangutan artificers. So do Space Dwarves (Come on, every single other "WHF but in Spaaace!" army fits in but Dwarves? People are awful god damn picky about their ideal 40k universes aren't they?)
As for Newcrons...wow, now that's hilarious. I remember when people used to bitch about the old Necrons, even though the fluff fit into 40kperfectly: it was very Lovecraftian, but with robots. How can you go wrong? Well, people didn't like that they were soulless robots with no personality, they apparently wanted characters to lead their armies, characters they could write stories about and give names to. The C'tan annoyed people because the threat they presented rivaled, or maybe even exceeded, the one presented by the Dark Gods themselves...that and people just didn't want to see literal gods on the gaming table (which I can understand, much like how I don't want to see primarchs or titans). Even the models weren't terribly interesting to look at, the old Necron codex was very bare and didn't have much in the way of choice...very few units, no vehicles besides the monolith...every army looked and played almost exactly the same. There was also an argument if I recall that the Necrons were "redundant" because they were basically just like Tyranids but with robots instead (But the 12 different Space Marine armies? Nope, not redundant!). So what did GW do? Very rare for them, but they listened to all the complaints and with the new codex they fixed all of that: the C'tan as you knew them are gone, made practically inconsequential now as they were overthrown by their former slaves. They not only got personality but a large handful of new characters with rich backstories, and some thematic rules to go with them, like the ability to summon a lightning storm during a game. The army's look also changed dramatically, with a revamping of the miniature line rivaling the one that the Dark Eldar saw not long before them: not only did they get a lot of new units, but they got a gak ton of vehicles! Flyers, transports, jetbikes, floating barges that act as either heavy artillery or chariots for a lord to go to battle in, even a giant walker, which in my opinion isn't really a bad-looking model. This once boring, soulless army now looks completely different, has a lot of different builds available to it (some that were actually competitive, the first time in a long time for Necron players and literally one of, if not the only xeno armies during 5th edition that actually stood a chance against the unstoppable IoM armies), lots of things to experiment with, lots more potential for fluff writers and story-tellers...the only downside is that they did basically just turn them into "WHF Tomb Kings in Spaaace!", but this is what everyone wanted, right?
lol, nope! People hate them more now. People want things to go back to how they were, when Necrons were just emotionless robots with no personality, no characters, no flyer or barge spam, etc.
Honestly, with all that in mind, it's no wonder GW is ignoring the fanbase when it comes to Tau, and is choosing to play it a little more safe with them instead of making dramatic changes. Be honest, would it really make a difference? Would you really accept Tau any more than you do now, or would you still hate them? Would you actually buy any of the models to support GW if they did listen to you or would you keep adding to your Space Marines? You don't want change, you just want Tau gone, and I'm sorry to say but that clearly isn't going to happen. It's been TWELVE YEARS since Tau were introduced, they are well and truly a part of the game now, and as long as GW still has two brain cells left they won't ever get rid of them. It's my understanding that Tau have always been decent sellers, despite the plethora of hate and Tau-bashing threads I've seen during my time in this hobby, so much so that they got their first update way earlier than what was typical for a xeno army, lots of FW love when other races that "fit in" better haven't seen much at all, and apparently the demand for Tau was so high earlier this year that stores couldn't keep them in stock for weeks. $85 riptides, an absurd new price point that we hadn't seen before for 40k models, were flying off shelves despite that, followed by YouTube reviews or painting tutorials going on about how amazing the kit was (it really isn't but that's just my opinion I guess). I've heard countless times that "GW is a business and they exist to make money!", and if that's the case then it sounds like if GW wants to stay in business they had best keep on like they have been: ignoring each and everyone of you that doesn't want Tau in "their" 40k and, if anything, making Tau even more prominent than they are. They should be making Tau BB with everyone ,and release more Tau formations, so every army in the game can field 4 riptides and lots of missile-spamming broadsides and they can sell lots and lots of $85 kits and $300 box sets to people.
If you haven't learned to accept the Greater Good yet, then by god you will.
Anyway, I doubt anyone is actually going to read all this gak. I tried several drafts and I simply can't seem to avoid posting a giant text wall so whatever, here you go. For what it's worth, this is usually why I try to avoid stupid, pointless threads like this one. It's just a waste of time trying to engage with these kinds of people.
I should also add, that despite all of that, I still wouldn't get rid of Orks, Eldar, or any other race in the game regardless of whether or not it tickles my personal fancy. Every faction out there is someone's favorite, and as others have said before me, the game needs more variety, not less.
I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.
I've never had a problem with Tau. I think the complaints are by and large fething stupid.
In terms of the Newcrons, I don't necessarily want it to be entirely reversed to the oldcrons. The Newcron codex has some good ideas, but also a lot of bad ones, and even the good ones should have been handled with moderation (Want more pronounced personalities? Make them cartoon characters! Yay!). I also can not get behind their current look. It's fething garish and honestly kind of an eyesore IMHO.
Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.
Wow, that's downright reasonable. I don't even know how to react! I was expecting more rage. I imagine that's yet to come, or I'll just be ignored, either one.
Void__Dragon wrote: Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.
That is exactly how I feel but I just didn't have the balls to say it. Or the wits to state it as clearly as you did without throwing half a dozen "feths" in there. But yeah, considering what an investment 40k is, in both time and money, I'm honestly appalled that anyone out there who has put similar amounts of time and effort into their armies can seriously think that way, and would be totally cool with entire factions just disappearing. I hate Space Marines but I would never want them to be written out of the game entirely...and even though it may not seem like it, I do think what GW did with BT was kinda lame. In my opinion they never should have split them off into their own codex if they weren't prepared to keep it supported, and I'm disappointed that they just rolled them back into the SM book. I still think they're better off in the SM book than they would be on their own, though: better rules, regular updates, etc. (how often do you see DA, BA, etc. players complain because "C:SM can do this, why can't I?!"), but I can understand why BT players are annoyed by the change and kinda wish GW didn't do that. And with Squats I guess it goes without saying, but that was a fethed up thing for GW to do, especially since they basically flat-out lied to people. And for their sake I hope they never do that again, because there's no point in getting into 40k anymore as any other faction but Space Marines if GW is perfectly willing to just drop your army at any point for any reason.
I should also say I'm just as annoyed by the new Tau codex as anyone else. I've always wanted to play a more "aggressive", mobile army that focuses more on mid-range firepower, or as Farsight puts it "shortening your reach"...I don't like the new codex because it promotes a style of play I'm not fond of. I don't want to be pigeon-holed into playing gunlines/castling up, and/or spamming riptides, it's not fun to play and it's apparently not fun for anyone to play against, either. I also think the riptide is an ugly model, so...
Also, I kind of agree with you on Necrons. I think you have a point as far as moderation goes, and as for the models I'm not too fond of some of the Egyptian-style headdresses they gave them. The barge is kind of "meh", I wasn't fond of the exposed pilots with their legs dangling like that, looks ridiculous. Other than that I don't think they're that bad, could have been better maybe but I think "eyesore" is probably harsh.
Anyway, as for my "lamest faction"...I wouldn't want to see any of them written out, like I said, and it's all just my personal opinion, but I think the current state of Chaos is just fething sad. My brother really likes Chaos and it sucks to watch him try and be enthusiastic about his army, but having to constantly struggle with gakky rules and ugly models. I don't get it, there are some cool pieces of art with Chaos Marines and daemons in them, models based on that art would look awesome, but the models GW have delivered are just awful. Even the chosen from DV, as cool as they are, suffer from being overly busy and maybe even confusing to look at because there's so much going on. I don't know why it's so hard to translate these cool ideas into cool miniatures, and why GW is so bad at it, but I really wish they would do better. A little less cartoony wouldn't kill them. And better rules wouldn't be a bad idea, either...not fond of Codex: Heldrake and Cultists, nor is anyone else.
SisterSydney wrote: You have a point there. My best take on the IG (whom I love) is "the Guard are the ordinary humans in a setting of superhumans who get stomped and stomped and keep on coming. Sometimes this means they steamroller the superhumans. Sometimes, not so much. But you've got to admire the cojones they have to even try."
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BrotherHaraldus wrote: Or the Sisters, who are, in their basis, a gimmick made into a faction.
As a huge fan of the Sisters, I gotta say you have a point. I think the Sisters have transcended this origin, but the way GW handles the Sisters has had Unfortunate Implications from the start.
As I recall, they first showed up in a single sentence in Rogue Trader -- before the Ecclesiarchy had been invented -- as a kind of genetic purity police, swooping down on people with no notice, testing their DNA, and arbitrarily executing them/dragging them away. So there's your "girls are scary," "girls are tattletales/scolds," and "any powerful woman must be an emasculating bitch" stereotypes right there.
Then they become "the girl army": hello, Smurfette Principle! In fact it's even central to their origin story, with the their very existence being to exploit a loophole in "no men under arms" wording of the Decree Passive demilitarizing the church. And they do this without losing the girls are scary/emasculating stuff. They even add a militarized Madonna/Whore Complex: most of them are virginal warrior-nuns, fully clad (albeit in sexualized armor), but those who "fall" are literally stripped nearly naked. BUT now the Sisters can actually fight -- and fight pretty darn well -- instead of just arrest helpless victims, they have powers derived from sheer force of pious will (whether it's "magic" or not is very much left open), and the Joan of Arc imagery bursts into full fleur-de-lis flower. And by now, they've arguably evolved into the best of humanity (at least in 40K military terms): the paradigm of what ordinary, genetically unmodified, non-cyborg humans can become with the best possible training, indoctrination, and equipment.
GW's still struggling with how to handle them, and it sure as hell needs to give them more units, but the Sisters have gone beyond a gimmick now.
I'm fine with the Sisters, I just wish they weren't so damn sexualized. Boobplate that would make WOW blush, or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC. They're a great concept that also doesn't fall victim to the annoying weak female trope, to the point that there's Sisters beyond normal Astartes or those that could beat up a mook marine just from skill. But for 's sake, ditch the boobplate, ditch the heels. Just make them look more like this.
Only a little bit more feminine with maybe a smaller bulk. But not only would it be friendly for STC's for their armor to be similar to Astartes', there's just no reason for their ridiculously sexualized armor besides simply trying to milk fans for cash via fanservice. Space Marine armor is massive. There's no reason why Sister's couldn't wear a smaller series nearly identical save some couple differences (while keeping their standard helmets) with the chest carved out for their strangely universally large chests. But there's no reason for it to be visible besides GW being able to point and scream' HEY LOOK, BOOBS, YOU LIKE BOOBS? HERE'S BOOBS!'
(Which as a male, it feels offensive for such marketing principles to pretty much whore out in an attempt to grab my money. My comic books are sexualized, my movies are sexualized, my games are sexualized, could my miniatures please just not be sexualized so there is at least SOMETHING?)
I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.
Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.
I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.
This. I still cant understand people with "not taking orks seriously". Oh, they are funny. Those machines, the language, that simplicity...
...and that simplicity when they bite off heads of you, your wife and your children, because who cares about some rules? Who cares about luring to chaos? Dont need those, bite those, waaagh. They are bigger than human, its like living nightmare that looks funny...and it still doesnt stop it from slaughtering your planet
I will have to say Tau. GM wanted to have their version of a popular(basically anime based) mech civilization. Unfortunately the models and the artwork for the Tau are blocky and their back story is a painful spinoff of the honor based culture of the Japanese. That is my opinion as someone who has lived in that country for nine years of my short life. Tho I am in fact a Irish American with a background in history and anthropology. The Tao are almost desperate, unnecessary and destined for a minimal cult following (especially in lore). They lack a appeal for most countries in general which is why the Tau fiction is barely supported in the story and they have a almost sad chance of ever captivating the audience enough to be a Tau only player in the real life game.
Wyzilla wrote:
I'm fine with the Sisters, I just wish they weren't so damn sexualized. Boobplate that would make WOW blush, or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC. They're a great concept that also doesn't fall victim to the annoying weak female trope, to the point that there's Sisters beyond normal Astartes or those that could beat up a mook marine just from skill. But for 's sake, ditch the boobplate, ditch the heels. Just make them look more like this.
Yes, this. Just the ability to kick ass is sexy enough.
Wyzilla wrote:
That's a great image. What is it, actually? I see the URL is "Chaos Space Marines conversion."
Bobthehero wrote:I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.....Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.
The other elite Schola Progenium graduates are pretty impressive, true -- not just Stormtroopers and Commissars but also the Ministorum Priests, at least as they're depicted on the tabletop. What makes Sororitas unique is (1) power armor, which is just a matter of better access to equipment, and (2) Acts of Faith, which -- whether miraculous or not -- are the product of a fanatical dedication and indoctrination that no other unaugmented humans in the setting can match.
I'd also agree that none of the existing factions should be Squatted. I've found myself defending factions rather than attacking them this whole thread.... I love everybody! Except Grey Knights a la Matt Ward, but even they were pretty cool before.
I have to say that not only for 40K but especially after working with Tau on the scale of Epic 40K, I think they are a cool addition to the 40K universe. It's nice to see a race that isn't just a variation on a theme. Too many of the races just have racially different versions of the same stuff like superheavies and titans, where Tau just use efficiently deadly aircraft.
It just too bad that's not something that can make a difference in the 40K scale apart from the 1% of tables out there where a player can afford such enormous Forgeworld models. Imperial Guard with a Baneblade against Tau Riptides is about as close as you can get, and even those are pretty much just "alien Knights".
Dakkamite wrote: I can understand if someone dislikes the Orks, but by no means are they out of place in the setting.
If Tau are "out of place" then Orks definitely are. I mean seriously, the 40k universe is too dark, too gothic, too "serious" for an "anime" race like Tau, but not a joke race like Orks? And they are a joke, they are straight-up comic relief: have been since they were introduced and have remained as such through 40k's life span despite any attempts by GW or others to try and change that (which I'm not convinced ever happened, they've always been goofy and stupid and I don't recall GW making any real attempt to dial that back). You simply can't make Orks scary, not with all the goofy gak they say and do in the fluff, games, etc. (they became memes for a reason), and definitely not when their biggest and most "intimidating" models are walking dick jokes. This tongue-in-cheek humor might have fit in okay in Rogue Trader, but it doesn't work in 40k.
GW has this all set up as if you're supposed to take it all deathly serious: it's the 11th hour and hell and damnation are all that await you. There's no hope left, no salvation, only death and despair. Your god is a corpse and all your prayers fall on deaf ears. When you inevitably die, slowly, horribly, painfully, there are alien gods and daemons both chomping at the bit to claim your pathetic soul for their own. You are a pawn: insignificant, worthless, a play thing for beings you can't even comprehend, and no one's going to miss you.
And then there's the Orks. "OI! Boyz! Stop muckin' about and start krumpin' some 'umies, you zoggin' GITS!", "Right, boss! 'ere we go! WAAAGH!"...and then a bunch of WHF Orcs with guns run across the battlefield with a giant dick robot waddling behind them firing dick bombs at people, flanked by giant walking trashcans and other army's models with random garbage glued to them.
But I can't play my Tau, because they don't "fit in". They're not "dark enough". Feth that.
Tau fit in just fine, especially with all the subtle changes GW have made to their fluff over the years: they have been making them darker, just not in the way that most people would apparently notice, with blood, skulls, and spikes glued to the models. Maybe the models look "out of place" but I think we've already established that doesn't matter, since Orks also look out of place and people like them fine. Eldar especially look out of place, more than Tau even, but just like Orks they were in Rogue Trader and so they've been grandfathered in, even though they don't "deserve" it in my opinoin because from the start they were both just very lazy port-overs from WHF. At least Tau are a little more "original" than that...I say that knowing full well that GW shamelessly copied everything about them from other sources, but in the sense that they aren't just "(Insert Fantasy Race Here) in Spaaace!"? Yeah. And speaking of Eldar, literally the only leg people have to stand on there, other than "You can't get rid of Eldar because they were in RT!", is that they're a "dying race"...really? That's it? I've heard literally nothing else, just "Eldar fit because dying race!" Okay, all I have to say to that is "So what?" Technically most races in 40k are "dying" races, even the fledgling Tau, since as I said before "It's the 11th hour, doom, despair, blah blah blah". They're as fethed as everyone else, they just don't know it yet. So if that's all it takes to fit in then I'll say it again, Tau fit in just fine. So do anthropomorphic space rats and highly intelligent space orangutan artificers. So do Space Dwarves (Come on, every single other "WHF but in Spaaace!" army fits in but Dwarves? People are awful god damn picky about their ideal 40k universes aren't they?)
As for Newcrons...wow, now that's hilarious. I remember when people used to bitch about the old Necrons, even though the fluff fit into 40kperfectly: it was very Lovecraftian, but with robots. How can you go wrong? Well, people didn't like that they were soulless robots with no personality, they apparently wanted characters to lead their armies, characters they could write stories about and give names to. The C'tan annoyed people because the threat they presented rivaled, or maybe even exceeded, the one presented by the Dark Gods themselves...that and people just didn't want to see literal gods on the gaming table (which I can understand, much like how I don't want to see primarchs or titans). Even the models weren't terribly interesting to look at, the old Necron codex was very bare and didn't have much in the way of choice...very few units, no vehicles besides the monolith...every army looked and played almost exactly the same. There was also an argument if I recall that the Necrons were "redundant" because they were basically just like Tyranids but with robots instead (But the 12 different Space Marine armies? Nope, not redundant!). So what did GW do? Very rare for them, but they listened to all the complaints and with the new codex they fixed all of that: the C'tan as you knew them are gone, made practically inconsequential now as they were overthrown by their former slaves. They not only got personality but a large handful of new characters with rich backstories, and some thematic rules to go with them, like the ability to summon a lightning storm during a game. The army's look also changed dramatically, with a revamping of the miniature line rivaling the one that the Dark Eldar saw not long before them: not only did they get a lot of new units, but they got a gak ton of vehicles! Flyers, transports, jetbikes, floating barges that act as either heavy artillery or chariots for a lord to go to battle in, even a giant walker, which in my opinion isn't really a bad-looking model. This once boring, soulless army now looks completely different, has a lot of different builds available to it (some that were actually competitive, the first time in a long time for Necron players and literally one of, if not the only xeno armies during 5th edition that actually stood a chance against the unstoppable IoM armies), lots of things to experiment with, lots more potential for fluff writers and story-tellers...the only downside is that they did basically just turn them into "WHF Tomb Kings in Spaaace!", but this is what everyone wanted, right?
lol, nope! People hate them more now. People want things to go back to how they were, when Necrons were just emotionless robots with no personality, no characters, no flyer or barge spam, etc.
Honestly, with all that in mind, it's no wonder GW is ignoring the fanbase when it comes to Tau, and is choosing to play it a little more safe with them instead of making dramatic changes. Be honest, would it really make a difference? Would you really accept Tau any more than you do now, or would you still hate them? Would you actually buy any of the models to support GW if they did listen to you or would you keep adding to your Space Marines? You don't want change, you just want Tau gone, and I'm sorry to say but that clearly isn't going to happen. It's been TWELVE YEARS since Tau were introduced, they are well and truly a part of the game now, and as long as GW still has two brain cells left they won't ever get rid of them. It's my understanding that Tau have always been decent sellers, despite the plethora of hate and Tau-bashing threads I've seen during my time in this hobby, so much so that they got their first update way earlier than what was typical for a xeno army, lots of FW love when other races that "fit in" better haven't seen much at all, and apparently the demand for Tau was so high earlier this year that stores couldn't keep them in stock for weeks. $85 riptides, an absurd new price point that we hadn't seen before for 40k models, were flying off shelves despite that, followed by YouTube reviews or painting tutorials going on about how amazing the kit was (it really isn't but that's just my opinion I guess). I've heard countless times that "GW is a business and they exist to make money!", and if that's the case then it sounds like if GW wants to stay in business they had best keep on like they have been: ignoring each and everyone of you that doesn't want Tau in "their" 40k and, if anything, making Tau even more prominent than they are. They should be making Tau BB with everyone ,and release more Tau formations, so every army in the game can field 4 riptides and lots of missile-spamming broadsides and they can sell lots and lots of $85 kits and $300 box sets to people.
If you haven't learned to accept the Greater Good yet, then by god you will.
Anyway, I doubt anyone is actually going to read all this gak. I tried several drafts and I simply can't seem to avoid posting a giant text wall so whatever, here you go. For what it's worth, this is usually why I try to avoid stupid, pointless threads like this one. It's just a waste of time trying to engage with these kinds of people.
I should also add, that despite all of that, I still wouldn't get rid of Orks, Eldar, or any other race in the game regardless of whether or not it tickles my personal fancy. Every faction out there is someone's favorite, and as others have said before me, the game needs more variety, not less.
I read it and agree entirely... As much as I dislike Tau, they fit in with the 40k universe MUCH better than 'space orcs'. I've always found it comical/embarrassing that orks are part of the game. Watch the look on someone's face who is just getting into the 40k universe and is attracted/drawn into the gothic grimdark of it all... Then plonk orks in front of them. It's that dreadful look of comprehending that they're now interested in something toddlers would want to play with.
The boobplate isn't so bad. I think of it as fitting in with the over-exagerrated aesthetic of the Sisters, myself.
Mind you, I wouldn't mourn the loss of boobplate. Either or.
Wyzilla wrote: or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC.
Nah, they don't. None on the models. In official art, it's only ever happened in one 2E Blanche artwork.
Wyzilla wrote: (Which as a male, it feels offensive for such marketing principles to pretty much whore out in an attempt to grab my money,
I'd say that the Sisters are pretty far ahead in this regard, overall. The boobplate is hardly as bad as the hordes of barely clothed female "soldier" minis out there.
Though, yes, the Repentia do sort of go against my point. Though they do have some pretty solid fluff to justify their appearance.
Bobthehero wrote: I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.
Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.
Eh, I'd say that they are the best, in terms of human soldiers. They're as well trained (if not better trained) than Stormtroopers, and better equipped. On top of that, they've got their Acts of Faith and the Shield of Faith. Aren't any other human troops that can do that.
I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.
I've never had a problem with Tau. I think the complaints are by and large fething stupid.
In terms of the Newcrons, I don't necessarily want it to be entirely reversed to the oldcrons. The Newcron codex has some good ideas, but also a lot of bad ones, and even the good ones should have been handled with moderation (Want more pronounced personalities? Make them cartoon characters! Yay!). I also can not get behind their current look. It's fething garish and honestly kind of an eyesore IMHO.
Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.
I agree with all of this, especially with the bolded part. Truth be said, I didn´t read all Sidstyler´s post, just skimmed it. But it sounded reasonable to me
Bobthehero wrote: I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.
Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.
They get a better armor, you could argue that the hellgun is better than a bolter, depending on what's in front of you, but generally, high ammo count+the possibility to punch through most armor is not something to scoff at.
I'm fine with the Sisters, I just wish they weren't so damn sexualized. Boobplate that would make WOW blush, or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC. They're a great concept that also doesn't fall victim to the annoying weak female trope, to the point that there's Sisters beyond normal Astartes or those that could beat up a mook marine just from skill. But for 's sake, ditch the boobplate, ditch the heels. Just make them look more like this.
Only a little bit more feminine with maybe a smaller bulk. But not only would it be friendly for STC's for their armor to be similar to Astartes', there's just no reason for their ridiculously sexualized armor besides simply trying to milk fans for cash via fanservice. Space Marine armor is massive. There's no reason why Sister's couldn't wear a smaller series nearly identical save some couple differences (while keeping their standard helmets) with the chest carved out for their strangely universally large chests. But there's no reason for it to be visible besides GW being able to point and scream' HEY LOOK, BOOBS, YOU LIKE BOOBS? HERE'S BOOBS!'
(Which as a male, it feels offensive for such marketing principles to pretty much whore out in an attempt to grab my money. My comic books are sexualized, my movies are sexualized, my games are sexualized, could my miniatures please just not be sexualized so there is at least SOMETHING?)
They don't have high heels, and the "boobplate" is necessary for symbolism. Think of it this way - it's the Eccleisarchy's way of telling everyone "hey look, we aren't breaking that no Man under Arms decree. See, they are women. So shove it." I suspect it might also have something to do with their inspiration from baroque art as well. Baroque is very showy and exaggerated after all.
That mini doesn't look like a sister to me. Just looks like another space marine. The problem with powered armor (or any armor, really) is that it tends to make everyone look the same. Sure, you have things like waist and whatever, but those are subtle; unless you are looking for it, you won't see it. Especially on a mini.
I'd say that the Sisters are pretty far ahead in this regard, overall. The boobplate is hardly as bad as the hordes of barely clothed female "soldier" minis out there.
Though, yes, the Repentia do sort of go against my point. Though they do have some pretty solid fluff to justify their appearance.
Considering how they have pitiful armor saves in game, I'd say your point still stands.
The problem with barely clothed female soldiers in fiction isn't that they are barely clothed, imo, it's that they are barely clothed and can survive getting shot at. Unless they have bullet proof skin or a healing factor, there's no reason why they should have their midriff exposed.
They don't have high heels, and the "boobplate" is necessary for symbolism.
Think of it this way - it's the Eccleisarchy's way of telling everyone "hey look, we aren't breaking that no Man under Arms decree. See, they are women. So shove it."
I suspect it might also have something to do with their inspiration from baroque art as well. Baroque is very showy and exaggerated after all.
The problem with boobplate is that it is downright negative for your survival. It guides incoming attacks in between the breasts, which is, well, bad.
I'd much rather lose a breast to a stab than lose some of the more valuable squishy bits deeper in.
Honestly, when we are talking the thickness of PA, any visual gender differences should be minimal. There are plenty of ways to distinguish them as a faction rather than having boobplate. They already have a rather unique armour design that could just as easily be applied to more 'flat' armour. Not to mention that the differences would be very visible indeed for the ones without helmets.
For me there are a few options:
Tau: just because the grimdark really doesn't work for them
Newcrons: because why is anyone else alive if this is the case
and SoB: sexy space nuns. Really?! Who the hell came up with that idea
When I think of SoB I think of overzealous women who would burn anyone for the slightest hint of heresy, no matter the age/gender/status, not boob armor.
They don't have high heels, and the "boobplate" is necessary for symbolism. Think of it this way - it's the Eccleisarchy's way of telling everyone "hey look, we aren't breaking that no Man under Arms decree. See, they are women. So shove it." I suspect it might also have something to do with their inspiration from baroque art as well. Baroque is very showy and exaggerated after all.
The problem with boobplate is that it is downright negative for your survival. It guides incoming attacks in between the breasts, which is, well, bad.
I'd much rather lose a breast to a stab than lose some of the more valuable squishy bits deeper in.
Honestly, when we are talking the thickness of PA, any visual gender differences should be minimal. There are plenty of ways to distinguish them as a faction rather than having boobplate. They already have a rather unique armour design that could just as easily be applied to more 'flat' armour. Not to mention that the differences would be very visible indeed for the ones without helmets.
I suspect that the breasts are completely ornamental. They are probably filled with more layers of metal. Is there anything in their background that says that the "boobplate" is filled with their breast?
Besides, the middle part is filled with something already, so I don't see any attacks being directed towards the chest anytime soon.
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Lord Spartacus wrote: When I think of SoB I think of overzealous women who would burn anyone for the slightest hint of heresy, no matter the age/gender/status, not boob armor.
Yep. Same. It is still part of their aesthetic though, and there's a good reason behind it. It would be like suddenly making orks orange in the setting, just because someone doesn't like green.
I like ALL the current factions. They all have a flaw of some kind, however, so I guess what sticks out most to me:
Orks ~ a bit too silly to be plausible, but it's the ridiculous efficiency of their regrowth from spores that gets tiresome for me. They just can't...ever...be...killed.
Necrons ~ so ancient with super god-like high tech yet continue to shuffle automatons into battle and gee they could kill destroy anything if they wanted to and they just can't...ever...be...killed.
Chaos Demons ~ their existence in the setting is a bit off for me, though GW does seem to be pushing the space fantasy aspect even further. Orcs and elves and MORE magic in space and now demons? *sigh* As an off- shoot of Chaos ok but having armies of demons is a stretch. They can be banished but it also seems they can't...ever...be...killed.
amanita wrote: I like ALL the current factions. They all have a flaw of some kind, however, so I guess what sticks out most to me:
Orks ~ a bit too silly to be plausible, but it's the ridiculous efficiency of their regrowth from spores that gets tiresome for me. They just can't...ever...be...killed.
Necrons ~ so ancient with super god-like high tech yet continue to shuffle automatons into battle and gee they could kill destroy anything if they wanted to and they just can't...ever...be...killed.
Chaos Demons ~ their existence in the setting is a bit off for me, though GW does seem to be pushing the space fantasy aspect even further. Orcs and elves and MORE magic in space and now demons? *sigh* As an off- shoot of Chaos ok but having armies of demons is a stretch. They can be banished but it also seems they can't...ever...be...killed.
Hmmm... I sense a theme here.
Ah, but they can be killed.
Orks - Kill it with fire.
Necrons - Nukes
Demons - The bible?
Anyway, I think I may have woefully directed this thread off topic with all this talk of SoB. There's already a couple of threads complaining about the boob plate in Discussions.
Ok now...I never liked the Eldar Fluff. Not sure if I already posted that here, so I'll say it again, Eldar fluff is a bit head scratching. For a race that could see the future, they certainly didn't see the birth of slaanesh coming. Or their race's extinction.
McNinja wrote: The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because
... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.
Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.
*Had to Google "internet meme" to figure out you were calling me stupid and unimaginative. Sorry, I have a spouse for that - but then again what did you expect from a soulless robot? No, Orks are still cartoonish and sculpted like thalidomide mutants with overloaded diapers. Nobody takes them seriously.
That got a chuckle out of me, but wouldn't that mean they have no limbs at all?
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ok now...I never liked the Eldar Fluff. Not sure if I already posted that here, so I'll say it again, Eldar fluff is a bit head scratching.
For a race that could see the future, they certainly didn't see the birth of slaanesh coming. Or their race's extinction.
But they totally did see it coming, hence the craftworlds, they just didn't see it coming soon enough and/or not enough people cared (the most hardcore had created pocket realms for themselves in the shadows of the webway anyway.
And they aren't extinct, Dark Eldar are thriving and each Craftworld houses billions. They are simply no longer the dominant force in the universe.
Not a fan of the Grey Knights. Sure they have a place in the 40k universe but no real need for them to be anything more than an ally or a footnote like the Legion of the Dammed now are.
McNinja wrote: The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because
... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.
Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.
*Had to Google "internet meme" to figure out you were calling me stupid and unimaginative. Sorry, I have a spouse for that - but then again what did you expect from a soulless robot? No, Orks are still cartoonish and sculpted like thalidomide mutants with overloaded diapers. Nobody takes them seriously.
That got a chuckle out of me, but wouldn't that mean they have no limbs at all?
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ok now...I never liked the Eldar Fluff. Not sure if I already posted that here, so I'll say it again, Eldar fluff is a bit head scratching.
For a race that could see the future, they certainly didn't see the birth of slaanesh coming. Or their race's extinction.
But they totally did see it coming, hence the craftworlds, they just didn't see it coming soon enough and/or not enough people cared (the most hardcore had created pocket realms for themselves in the shadows of the webway anyway.
And they aren't extinct, Dark Eldar are thriving and each Craftworld houses billions. They are simply no longer the dominant force in the universe.
Aren't they nearing extinction though? I thought the whole "dying race" thing was their schtick?
That mini doesn't look like a sister to me. Just looks like another space marine. The problem with powered armor (or any armor, really) is that it tends to make everyone look the same. Sure, you have things like waist and whatever, but those are subtle; unless you are looking for it, you won't see it. Especially on a mini
This is another good point, actually. It gives them a very unique look, and keeps them nice and disctinct from the Marines. Though, granted, this could probably be done easily enough with some other design.
Like I said, I wouldn't mourn the boobplate's loss, but it does have its advantages.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Considering how they have pitiful armor saves in game, I'd say your point still stands.
The problem with barely clothed female soldiers in fiction isn't that they are barely clothed, imo, it's that they are barely clothed and can survive getting shot at. Unless they have bullet proof skin or a healing factor, there's no reason why they should have their midriff exposed.
Well, with the Repentia, the survivng bullets thing is explained as them being so zealous that they can ignore the pain, hence their FNP abilities. As for them being somewhat exposed, again, their fluff as insanely zealous penitents gives that a fitting explanation.
Brother Payne wrote: and SoB: sexy space nuns. Really?! Who the hell came up with that idea
Nobody came up with that idea, because they're not characterised that way. Some people on the internet just want them to be.
Their artwork and fluff in studio sources has never really emphasised sex at all. First and foremost, they're pitched as zealot-soldiers, not as sexually appealing.
Lord Spartacus wrote: When I think of SoB I think of overzealous women who would burn anyone for the slightest hint of heresy, no matter the age/gender/status, not boob armor.
Yep! In my view, they're first and foremost defined as zealot-warriors.
Most Sister of Battle artwork doesn't depict them as particularly attractive. Likely because the physical demands of their training regimen and the horrors of war have made them unattractive. There are exceptions of course, but I doubt most Sisters of Battle are sexy by any conventional standards.
the color purple wrote: Grey Knights and Chaos use the same armor and much of the same equipment as marines and manage to not feature prominent sexual characteristics.
Yeah. We're so alike, any CSM can infiltrate the GK ranks
the color purple wrote: Grey Knights and Chaos use the same armor and much of the same equipment as marines and manage to not feature prominent sexual characteristics.
Yeah. We're so alike, any CSM can infiltrate the GK ranks
I don't know about you guys, but I don't find most of the Sisters models particularly sexy.
@CthuluIsSpy: It is now. Their shtick used to be that they're dying, but their tech the most advanced in the galaxy and because of that they could still seriously contest the Imperium's claim to the most powerful force in the galaxy. They merely had no interest in doing so, as the Imperium, for all its faults, is a useful buffer against the various enemies out there.
The oldcrons already took the second part (and I hate them for it). Newcrons, instead of going in a different direction to become their own thing, just upped the ante to stupid-good levels.
Void__Dragon wrote:Most Sister of Battle artwork doesn't depict them as particularly attractive. Likely because the physical demands of their training regimen and the horrors of war have made them unattractive. There are exceptions of course, but I doubt most Sisters of Battle are sexy by any conventional standards.
The one on the cover of the digital codex is improbably pretty.....
And then there's the fanart. GOOGLE WITH CARE!
the color purple wrote:....Chaos use the same armor and much of the same equipment as marines and manage to not feature prominent sexual characteristics.
Riiiiiight, because all those long, pointy spikes aren't compensating for anything.
Void__Dragon wrote:Most Sister of Battle artwork doesn't depict them as particularly attractive. Likely because the physical demands of their training regimen and the horrors of war have made them unattractive. There are exceptions of course, but I doubt most Sisters of Battle are sexy by any conventional standards.
The one on the cover of the digital codex is improbably pretty.....
And then there's the fanart. GOOGLE WITH CARE!
He did say exceptions, and the sister on the cover is also bleeding, with a smoking gun and an expression that says "make my day, punk." That tends to be a bit of a mood killer.
Well, it is the internet. My calculations could be wrong, but I estimate that approximately 80% of it is composed of either Rule 34 or cats. Or both...
the color purple wrote:....Chaos use the same armor and much of the same equipment as marines and manage to not feature prominent sexual characteristics.
Riiiiiight, because all those long, pointy spikes aren't compensating for anything.
Also, slaanesh. Speaking of the internet, I advise you not to google that.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: He did say exceptions, and the sister on the cover is also bleeding, with a smoking gun and an expression that says "make my day, punk." That tends to be a bit of a mood killer.
Indeed. While this Sister is somewhat more attracitve than the ones we've seen before (in the studio art, anyway), she's still on a flaming battlefield, holding her gun up, and a little battle-damaged. Their role as warriors is still very much at the forefront.
Void__Dragon wrote: Most Sister of Battle artwork doesn't depict them as particularly attractive.
Quite right. Back in 2E, there were a few quite old Sisters. Then we've got the Repentia, who never come across as attractive. Other Sisters have mostly been fairly plain looking.
Well, the Sisters are both very dedicated elite soldiers and insanely devoted orthodox zealots on top of that. Not really characterisitcs that go hand-in-hand with sexiness.
Watchersinthedark wrote: Not a fan of the Grey Knights. Sure they have a place in the 40k universe but no real need for them to be anything more than an ally or a footnote like the Legion of the Dammed now are.
I hope that GW might do a BPRD kind of thing with the Ordo Malleus with how the Horus Heresy series is going with the founding the of the Grey Knights by astartes of an inquisitive and devoutly loyal nature.
Watchersinthedark wrote: Not a fan of the Grey Knights. Sure they have a place in the 40k universe but no real need for them to be anything more than an ally or a footnote like the Legion of the Dammed now are.
I hope that GW might do a BPRD kind of thing with the Ordo Malleus with how the Horus Heresy series is going with the founding the of the Grey Knights by astartes of an inquisitive and devoutly loyal nature.
Watchersinthedark wrote: Not a fan of the Grey Knights. Sure they have a place in the 40k universe but no real need for them to be anything more than an ally or a footnote like the Legion of the Dammed now are.
I hope that GW might do a BPRD kind of thing with the Ordo Malleus with how the Horus Heresy series is going with the founding the of the Grey Knights by astartes of an inquisitive and devoutly loyal nature.
Mike Mignola, Hellboy. It has a nice dark feel to it with dark characters in a dark universe, but GW really tends to suffer from indecision in its writing and thus the Ordo Malleus just come off as a bunch of dicks that leaves the reader fairly disillusioned, especially when you compare them to their founders, who were righteous protectors of humanity who actually knew what they were fighting for. But now they just seem to be lost in the narrative and don't know what they want to be.
Watchersinthedark wrote: Not a fan of the Grey Knights. Sure they have a place in the 40k universe but no real need for them to be anything more than an ally or a footnote like the Legion of the Dammed now are.
I hope that GW might do a BPRD kind of thing with the Ordo Malleus with how the Horus Heresy series is going with the founding the of the Grey Knights by astartes of an inquisitive and devoutly loyal nature.
BPRD?
Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense.
It's a comic series that's about a branch of the US government that deals with paranormal activity. Hellboy is part of it, and the Hellboy comics and BPRD comics are intertwined. It's pretty awesome. I'm a bit behind on it, but from where I left off, a bunch of eldritch horrors were invading earth and sending giant monsters everywhere to eat cities.
Brother Payne wrote: Ah cool. Not sure I get how it would tie-in w making the Ordo Malleus any different to what it is now but thanks
Make the Ordo Malleus operate like the 'the bureau' trope while also making them distinct from normal astartes without making them look evil. Right now the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights are kind stuck on the fence unsure which way they want to go. They're labeled the righteous defenders of humanity- yet are complete jerks compared to most other loyalist astartes. They're different from normal Astartes, yet they function similarly to a Chapter. It's just that the Grey Knights seem to just be young and weird compared to the other parts of the fluff that have been smoothed out and need to find something unique to be that radically sets them apart.
The Imperium already has WAAAY too much too much of this and it's suffocating the specialist factions so they all look the same.
Brother Payne wrote: Ah cool. Not sure I get how it would tie-in w making the Ordo Malleus any different to what it is now but thanks
Make the Ordo Malleus operate like the 'the bureau' trope while also making them distinct from normal astartes without making them look evil. Right now the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights are kind stuck on the fence unsure which way they want to go. They're labeled the righteous defenders of humanity- yet are complete jerks compared to most other loyalist astartes. They're different from normal Astartes, yet they function similarly to a Chapter. It's just that the Grey Knights seem to just be young and weird compared to the other parts of the fluff that have been smoothed out and need to find something unique to be that radically sets them apart.
The Imperium already has WAAAY too much too much of this and it's suffocating the specialist factions so they all look the same.
Yeah, I would like to see them become more a law enforcement sort of thing. Have them supplement Arbites and PDF, you know, in case of demons.
In fact, I think Codex: Inquisition was a bit of a missed opportunity in that regard - they could have introduced things like PDF and arbites or even IG as troops, and have GK, AS, or DW be elite choices unlocked by the appropriate inquisitor.
PDF is pretty well represented by low-end Guard -- or high-end Guard in the case of a few lucky planets. Aren't IG often recruited from PDF anyway?
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Troike wrote: ... the Sisters are both very dedicated elite soldiers and insanely devoted orthodox zealots on top of that. Not really characterisitcs that go hand-in-hand with sexiness.
At the risk of repeating myself: Maybe not for you.
Their artwork and fluff in studio sources has never really emphasised sex at all. First and foremost, they're pitched as zealot-soldiers, not as sexually appealing.
Which (I suspect) is why the GW marketing department does not have a fecking clue how to handle them.
As to the topic at hand. While I believe; thoroughly, that each and every faction has a place in the setting, if I had to nominate a faction for 'lamest' it would be the SM. I've never been a particular fan of the distilled male power fantasy that is SM, but the fact that they are at the forefront of the setting, broadly considered the most important faction and receive so much total over-exposure, I am just, really, really, tired of them.
Their artwork and fluff in studio sources has never really emphasised sex at all. First and foremost, they're pitched as zealot-soldiers, not as sexually appealing.
Which (I suspect) is why the GW marketing department does not have a fecking clue how to handle them.
As to the topic at hand. While I believe; thoroughly, that each and every faction has a place in the setting, if I had to nominate a faction for 'lamest' it would be the SM. I've never been a particular fan of the distilled male power fantasy that is SM, but the fact that they are at the forefront of the setting, broadly considered the most important faction and receive so much total over-exposure, I am just, really, really, tired of them.
Depends on how they're handled. For example, I love the the unique chapters, like the Black Dragons, who stand on the edge of a knife and draw fire from both sides, including those supposed to be allies. I also like some of the founding Legions, for example, the Fists are largely well done and excellent, as are the Salamanders. The main chapters I dislike are those of Guilliman, as they're so bloody bland cookie cutter orthodox Chapters that aren't that unique and don't challenge the status quo. Sure they can be somewhat interesting, but they have no unique traits besides the trait of not having anything that really sets them apart. They're the boring majority.
And as for people that complain about it being a power fantasy? Come the on. Like anything humanity makes isn't largely comprised of such stories, which goes back before the bloody Greeks and probably the dawn of human civilization. If there's one thing that humans love to make, it's stories that have elements of power fantasy and HFY!. I just look more for the stories that focus on how the Astartes are actually plagued with problems and the whole ubermensch thing isn't really all that it's cracked up to be.
As much as I hate SMs, my vote is for Orks. They simply have no place in the 40k universe. They're at home in a fantasy setting, being warlike and brutish. In that setting their idiocy is irrelevant. Being big and tough can still work for them.
But in a sci-fi setting, their fluff and plot armor rivals that of SMs in that things just conveniently happen to work out for them. Where other races have spent millennia researching and developing superior technology, Ork tech just happens to work by sheer force of will. No knowledge, no research, no science, no intelligence. They just nail three pieces of metal together and voila! They have a magic black hole gun rivaling Necron tech. Hammer a couple cogs onto that and it's now a suit of cyborg armor that fires lasers and rockets!... So stupid! There's no accounting for this race of axe-brandishing primitives ever aspiring to a space faring race, much less an intergalactic threat... Everything about them is just out of place in 40k. There's never any satisfactory explanation for why they wouldn't be easily defeated or ignored by literally every other race in the game. It's insulting to factions like Tau and the Imperium to have to admit that they've actually struggled to fight such an unintelligent, technologically inferior race... There's really no reason why they would have a hard time wiping out the Orks.
A close second is Space marines. They'd be fine if they weren't constantly and unaccountably overcoming 1000-1 odds. Theirs is the cheesiest fluff and the most hideously blatant plot armor in the game... But at least they have a place in a sci-fi setting.
Off-Topic:
I sort of smirk at those who think Tau fluff is out of place for its lack of grimdark... The way I see it, Tau are even darker and more disturbing than the Imperium. They're just better at hiding it. (Which in itself is another aspect that makes them so dark.) I highly recommend reading the fluff in the new codex as well as the Farsight supplement before saying that Tau are all rainbows and butterflies.
Some examples:
Unhealthy Tau firecaste babies mysteriously disappear.
Tau Firewarriors who don't perform to a certain standard mysteriously disappear.
Tau who question why some Tau mysteriously disappear will also mysteriously disappear.
A Tau trial by fire is often a Matrix-style mind game where you don't realize you're in a simulation, until you either experience your own horrifying death (at which point you wake up, utterly traumatized but having passed the test.) or you act toward self preservation and survive (at which point you wake up, having failed... and mysteriously disappear.)
Why does Aun'va want Farsight's head on a platter, despite Farsight still fighting for and being loyal to the Tau empire? Because Farsight disobeyed an order. (Even though it was for the greater good.)
Why does Farsight stay the hell away from the empire, aside from Aun'va wanting him dead? Because he figured out some of the scary-ass stuff the Ethereals are doing... And that's only because he's a genius who managed to make some frightening correlations over the course of his long life.
Tau who don't deny all sympathy for Farsight mysteriously disappear.
Pretty soon, races who reject assimilation into the Tau empire will mysteriously disappear.
It's a very "Big Brother is watching you" society... Creepy.
Archonate wrote: As much as I hate SMs, my vote is for Orks. They simply have no place in the 40k universe. They're at home in a fantasy setting, being warlike and brutish. In that setting their idiocy is irrelevant. Being big and tough can still work for them.
But in a sci-fi setting, their fluff and plot armor rivals that of SMs in that things just conveniently happen to work out for them. Where other races have spent millennia researching and developing superior technology, Ork tech just happens to work by sheer force of will. No knowledge, no research, no science, no intelligence. They just nail three pieces of metal together and voila! They have a magic black hole gun rivaling Necron tech. Hammer a couple cogs onto that and it's now a suit of cyborg armor that fires lasers and rockets!... So stupid! There's no accounting for this race of axe-brandishing primitives to ever aspire to being a space faring race, much less an intergalactic threat... Everything about them is just out of place in 40k. There's never any satisfactory explanation for why they wouldn't be easily defeated or ignored by literally every other race in the game. It's insulting to factions like Tau and the Imperium to have to admit that they've actually struggled to fight such an unintelligent, technologically inferior race... There's really no reason why they would have a hard time wiping out the Orks.
A close second is Space marines. They'd be fine if they weren't constantly and unaccountably overcoming 1000-1 odds. Theirs is the cheesiest fluff and the most hideously blatant plot armor in the game... But at least they have a place in a sci-fi setting.
Off-Topic:
I sort of smirk at those who think Tau fluff is out of place for its lack of grimdark... The way I see it, Tau are even darker and more disturbing than the Imperium. They're just better at hiding it. (Which in itself is another aspect that makes them so dark.) I highly recommend reading the fluff in the new codex as well as the Farsight supplement before saying that Tau are all rainbows and butterflies.
Some examples:
Unhealthy Tau firecaste babies mysteriously disappear.
Tau Firewarriors who don't perform to a certain standard mysteriously disappear.
Tau who question why some Tau mysteriously disappear will also mysteriously disappear.
A Tau trial by fire is often a Matrix-style mind game where you don't realize you're in a simulation, until you either experience your own horrifying death (at which point you wake up, utterly traumatized but having passed the test.) or you act toward self preservation and survive (at which point you wake up, having failed... and mysteriously disappear.)
Why does Aun'va want Farsight's head on a platter, despite Farsight still fighting for and being loyal to the Tau empire? Because Farsight disobeyed an order. (Even though it was for the greater good.)
Why does Farsight stay the hell away from the empire, aside from Aun'va wanting him dead? Because he figured out some of the scary-ass stuff the Ethereals are doing... And that's only because he's a genius who managed to make some frightening correlations over the course of his long life.
Tau who don't deny all sympathy for Farsight mysteriously disappear.
Pretty soon, races who reject assimilation into the Tau empire will mysteriously disappear.
It's a very "Big Brother is watching you" society... Creepy.
I collected tau in late fourth as my first army and well that codex etc sounds so lame compared to this. Might have to read the new codex... i will still always hold my opinion on how aweful they look though. Except kroot and vespid.
Archonate wrote: As much as I hate SMs, my vote is for Orks. They simply have no place in the 40k universe. They're at home in a fantasy setting, being warlike and brutish. In that setting their idiocy is irrelevant. Being big and tough can still work for them.
But in a sci-fi setting, their fluff and plot armor rivals that of SMs in that things just conveniently happen to work out for them. Where other races have spent millennia researching and developing superior technology, Ork tech just happens to work by sheer force of will. No knowledge, no research, no science, no intelligence. They just nail three pieces of metal together and voila! They have a magic black hole gun rivaling Necron tech. Hammer a couple cogs onto that and it's now a suit of cyborg armor that fires lasers and rockets!... So stupid! There's no accounting for this race of axe-brandishing primitives ever aspiring to a space faring race, much less an intergalactic threat... Everything about them is just out of place in 40k. There's never any satisfactory explanation for why they wouldn't be easily defeated or ignored by literally every other race in the game. It's insulting to factions like Tau and the Imperium to have to admit that they've actually struggled to fight such an unintelligent, technologically inferior race... There's really no reason why they would have a hard time wiping out the Orks.
A close second is Space marines. They'd be fine if they weren't constantly and unaccountably overcoming 1000-1 odds. Theirs is the cheesiest fluff and the most hideously blatant plot armor in the game... But at least they have a place in a sci-fi setting.
Other armies should be able to deny the witch against everything Orks do.
Troike wrote: ... the Sisters are both very dedicated elite soldiers and insanely devoted orthodox zealots on top of that. Not really characterisitcs that go hand-in-hand with sexiness.
At the risk of repeating myself: Maybe not for you.
When I said that, I was thinking of the more conventional view of sexiness. If their current characterisation appeals to you in such a way, then that's fine.
Their artwork and fluff in studio sources has never really emphasised sex at all. First and foremost, they're pitched as zealot-soldiers, not as sexually appealing.
Which (I suspect) is why the GW marketing department does not have a fecking clue how to handle them.
Hmmm? They've pretty much always marketed them the same way, zealous female warriors. And apperently that's sufficient, since their 6E codex sold well.
If you have ever been attracted to a Nun, you can understand how SoB are sexy. I know. Seems taboo and all. Something about a young woman, who is full of self sacrifice, both safe and forbidden all at once.. and ocassionally twists your ear to get you back into line. Wow.
Yeah, it's a thing. Not my thing, but definitely a thing. Probably also has to do with how thoroughly they cover up..... which makes Sororitas power armor actually look immodest given you can still tell there's a woman underneath, if only because of purely decorative flourishes.
the color purple wrote: Grey Knights and Chaos use the same armor and much of the same equipment as marines and manage to not feature prominent sexual characteristics.
Yeah. We're so alike, any CSM can infiltrate the GK ranks
Troike wrote: Hmmm? They've pretty much always marketed them the same way, zealous female warriors.
Ok, at the risk of tangeting, allow me to talk about this. It's true that they haven't (thankfully) changed how they present the SOB, but it is clearly a product that someone (someone who holds the purse strings at GW) does not (or at least did not) have a lot of confidence in. The army existed in limbo for years, going nearly 2 editions without an updated to their rules, and when they did get an update it was a WD, stopgap list. The last new model; the Exorcist, was 10 years ago. Which is to say; they haven't been doing much to 'market' them for a good long time.
Now we have the new Digital Codex, so surely that means there is renewed faith in the faction. Well no. Renewed faith would have lead to a relaunch like the DE got, or the Necrons. The SOB digital codex was the safest, lowest risk, lowest investment thing they could do short of 'squating' the faction. (I can expound if you like.) And it also tied into their new 'digital supplements' thing that they just launched, so I (cynically) expect timing was involved.
So, anyway, they don't have confidence in the faction. My thesis, essentially, is: that this is primarily due to the faction not being predominately male, and the females not being hyper sexualised the GW marketing department says to themselves: "how do we sell that to our target demographic of 14 year old boys? Put that in the 'too hard' basket and lets make more Space Marines."
Troike wrote: And apparently that's sufficient, since their 6E codex sold well.
Now I would dearly love a source for this, because if it is true that may just provide that someone at GW solid reason to have that confidence and actually make an investment in the SOB, hopefully without changing the faction's character.
Pendix wrote: Ok, at the risk of tangeting, allow me to talk about this. It's true that they haven't (thankfully) changed how they present the SOB, but it is clearly a product that someone (someone who holds the purse strings at GW) does not (or at least did not) have a lot of confidence in. The army existed in limbo for years, going nearly 2 editions without an updated to their rules, and when they did get an update it was a WD, stopgap list. The last new model; the Exorcist, was 10 years ago. Which is to say; they haven't been doing much to 'market' them for a good long time.
Now we have the new Digital Codex, so surely that means there is renewed faith in the faction. Well no. Renewed faith would have lead to a relaunch like the DE got, or the Necrons. The SOB digital codex was the safest, lowest risk, lowest investment thing they could do short of 'squating' the faction. (I can expound if you like.) And it also tied into their new 'digital supplements' thing that they just launched, so I (cynically) expect timing was involved.
So, anyway, they don't have confidence in the faction. My thesis, essentially, is: that this is primarily due to the faction not being predominately male, and the females not being hyper sexualised the GW marketing department says to themselves: "how do we sell that to our target demographic of 14 year old boys? Put that in the 'too hard' basket and lets make more Space Marines."
Lots of people assume it's that GW lacks confidence in them, but it's actually mostly just that modelling issues have prevented a transition into plastic, which likely resulted in them being placed on the backburner. Some developer quotes illustrate this:
(Jes Goodwin)
He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
Oh yeah, one last thing about the Sisters of Battle. According to Phil Kelly, the reason why they never got plastic minis was because they couldn't be plastic moulded by the current process. He wasn't really sure what the issue was, but there was something about the sculpt which meant that it could only be cast in metal.
So, they've actually wanted and have attempted to do a big update on them, but were unable to. Though at Enter the Citadel, they apparently also said that they now had the capability to create plastic Sisters. So, assuming that's the case, between that and the good sales of the 6E Digital Codex, hopefully there's a big update in the SoB's future.
Pendix wrote: Now I would dearly love a source for this, because if it is true that may just provide that someone at GW solid reason to have that confidence and actually make an investment in the SOB, hopefully without changing the faction's character.
Some examples:
Unhealthy Tau firecaste babies mysteriously disappear.
Tau Firewarriors who don't perform to a certain standard mysteriously disappear.
Tau who question why some Tau mysteriously disappear will also mysteriously disappear.
A Tau trial by fire is often a Matrix-style mind game where you don't realize you're in a simulation, until you either experience your own horrifying death (at which point you wake up, utterly traumatized but having passed the test.) or you act toward self preservation and survive (at which point you wake up, having failed... and mysteriously disappear.)
Why does Aun'va want Farsight's head on a platter, despite Farsight still fighting for and being loyal to the Tau empire? Because Farsight disobeyed an order. (Even though it was for the greater good.)
Why does Farsight stay the hell away from the empire, aside from Aun'va wanting him dead? Because he figured out some of the scary-ass stuff the Ethereals are doing... And that's only because he's a genius who managed to make some frightening correlations over the course of his long life.
Tau who don't deny all sympathy for Farsight mysteriously disappear.
Pretty soon, races who reject assimilation into the Tau empire will mysteriously disappear.
It's a very "Big Brother is watching you" society... Creepy.
This is why the Tau are so great. A shame they are overlooked because of the ''anime'' looking soldiers.
Troike wrote: Lots of people assume it's that GW lacks confidence in them, but it's actually mostly just that modelling issues have prevented a transition into plastic, which likely resulted in them being placed on the backburner. Some developer quotes illustrate this: ...
Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly believe that there are people within the 'Studio' part of GW that do believe in the SOB, I'd just be very surprised if they were the same people holding the purse strings.
Troike wrote: So, they've actually wanted and have attempted to do a big update on them, but were unable to. Though at Enter the Citadel, they apparently also said that they now had the capability to create plastic Sisters. So, assuming that's the case...
That's always struck me as a weird excuse. Surely, if you were going to do a release in the vein of DE with the Sisters, you'd start by doing completely new, plastic multi-part troop boxes. In which case, the old models being hard to cast in plastic would not be an issue (are there any examples of old metal models receiving a re-release as identical plastic versions?). I'd not call Jes or Phill liars, they're both awesome people, but it still strikes me as weird.
Oh . . . oh my. That's not what I was expecting, I thought it would be a quote from a Digital Distribution talking head giving a vague 'it sold well' statement. That is independent, third party numbers. That's awesome. It actually gives me some measure of hope. Thankyou.
Dark eldar, "pray they don't take you alive". And it amazes me eldar can even ally with them, if you read some of the stuff they do in the codex it gets old quickly. Yes, i get how evil you are already.
Pendix wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly believe that there are people within the 'Studio' part of GW that do believe in the SOB, I'd just be very surprised if they were the same people holding the purse strings.
There's three developers that have Sisters as their main army, and Cruddace and Kelly have expressed interest in them, with Cruddace also having them as an army. Yeah, not the people controlling the finances, but still good to know.
Pendix wrote: That's always struck me as a weird excuse. Surely, if you were going to do a release in the vein of DE with the Sisters, you'd start by doing completely new, plastic multi-part troop boxes. In which case, the old models being hard to cast in plastic would not be an issue (are there any examples of old metal models receiving a re-release as identical plastic versions?). I'd not call Jes or Phill liars, they're both awesome people, but it still strikes me as weird.
Jes Goodwin talks about the problems in detail in that first source I linked. Essentially, it seems to be that they want to do something new with the models, but can't due to the differences betweens metal models and posable plastic models. Take it as you will:
Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
After reading Ward's fluff in the Grey Knights codex, I say they're the lamest faction. One guy killing THOUSANDS of demons by himself? They need to get toned down quite a bit after that. But the idea of eliminating a faction just because you personally don't like them seems infantile.
MWHistorian wrote: After reading Ward's fluff in the Grey Knights codex, I say they're the lamest faction. One guy killing THOUSANDS of demons by himself? They need to get toned down quite a bit after that. But the idea of eliminating a faction just because you personally don't like them seems infantile.
I love how a random band of Orks accomplished more than Draigo has. (See Codex: Orks)
The fact that nuns are supposed to be peaceful and detached from sexual experiences (I didn't really know how to phrase that last bit...)
They don't have to have sex to be sexy.
As for "peaceful". This is the 41st Millennium, son. There is only war.
Troike wrote: Well, the Sisters are both very dedicated elite soldiers and insanely devoted orthodox zealots on top of that. Not really characterisitcs that go hand-in-hand with sexiness.
How does combat proficiency and zealotry prevent someone from being physically attractive? I've seen plenty of very attractive female soldiers in real life.
BlaxicanX wrote: How does combat proficiency and zealotry prevent someone from being physically attractive? I've seen plenty of very attractive female soldiers in real life.
How does combat proficiency and zealotry prevent someone from being physically attractive? I've seen plenty of very attractive female soldiers in real life.
When I said sexy, I was thinking more like going for sex appeal. Revealing clothes and a flirtacious attitude, that sort of stuff. Sure, a Sister could be attractive, but the brutal fighting of 40K would likey dimish that. sooner or later.
Also, the Sisters being, as I said, extremeley orthodox zealots means that they wouldn't really actively go out of their way to look attractive. Modern female soldiers don't have such harsh restrictions on them, nor do they (usually) fight so brutally as in 40K.
MWHistorian wrote: After reading Ward's fluff in the Grey Knights codex, I say they're the lamest faction. One guy killing THOUSANDS of demons by himself? They need to get toned down quite a bit after that. But the idea of eliminating a faction just because you personally don't like them seems infantile.
I love how a random band of Orks accomplished more than Draigo has. (See Codex: Orks)
MWHistorian wrote: After reading Ward's fluff in the Grey Knights codex, I say they're the lamest faction. One guy killing THOUSANDS of demons by himself? They need to get toned down quite a bit after that. But the idea of eliminating a faction just because you personally don't like them seems infantile.
I love how a random band of Orks accomplished more than Draigo has. (See Codex: Orks)
If Tau are "out of place" then Orks definitely are. I mean seriously, the 40k universe is too dark, too gothic, too "serious" for an "anime" race like Tau, but not a joke race like Orks?
[Herp derp all sorts of stupid crap I never said thats being attributed to me]
Woah, cool your jets there.
What I said was that in my opinion, Tau don't fit the setting. My opinion can and should be different to yours, and this is a thread to voice that opinion in - thats something you'll have to just deal with.
I didn't say anything about their aesthetic or the anime aspect as being the issue. I love the look of the Riptide, one of my favourite movies is End of Evangelion, and I play the anime aesthetic Infinity far more than 40k these days. So quite simply, nothing you've said here actually applies to me, the guy your replying to - so why even quote me?
As for the rest of your rant, why the hell is it even directed at me? I dislike Necrons for legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with "tomb kings in space", I don't collect Space Marines, I never mentioned anything about things needing to be "dark" to fit into the game, and never said anything about players who take armies I personally dislike shouldn't be able to use them - all of that is, pure and simply, your own insecurities about your factions and the game and have *nothing* to do with the user your attributing them to.
Frankly everything about your post seems to embody what I dislike most about 40k. The shooty focus, the gak rules, the no movement gunline / no brains spam army lists, and everything that takes the game away from its more lighthearted, casual and narrative roots and "fantasy in space" and toward herp derp grimdark, players who think that "wargaming is srs business", and the more generic science fiction elements of the story.
If you haven't learned to accept the Greater Good yet, then by god you will.
No I won't. I don't have to play against anyones gaktides or Tau allies or anything if I don't want to. I'll play someone's Tau if it fits my requirements, same as any list, and never in any other situation. Get over it.
To b fair, just because you have the right to an opinion doesn't mean that opinion has the right to be unopposed. Everyone has the right to have an opinion on your opinion, and to vocalize those opinions just like you vocalized yours.
I also have the right to have my opinions accurately represented. As I said above, I never mentioned tomb kings in space, I don't play space marines, and I don't believe that people who play armies I don't like should have them squatted.
Dakkamite wrote: I also have the right to have my opinions accurately represented. As I said above, I never mentioned tomb kings in space, I don't play space marines, and I don't believe that people who play armies I don't like should have them squatted.
I thought you where uber reasonable... I think some of the people here didnt read the whole thing and just assumed you said some things...
Well considering only two people have posted in here since that post, and one of them is you, I don't know how clever the "some people" line is.
Never said he wasn't reasonable. What I said, which was in reference to the multiple rather defensive statements he made about "his opinion", is that opinions aren't sacred things that people need to just "get over it" and accept. If you voice an opinion, people have the right to voice an opinion on your opinion. That's simply how it works.
Because opinions being sacred things is such a common misconception, I feel obligated to clarify it whenever it pops up. It's nothing personal.
BlaxicanX wrote: Well considering only two people have posted in here since that post, and one of them is you, I don't know how clever the "some people" line is.
Never said he wasn't reasonable. What I said, which was in reference to the multiple rather defensive statements he made about "his opinion", is that opinions aren't sacred things that people need to just "get over it" and accept. If you voice an opinion, people have the right to voice an opinion on your opinion. That's simply how it works.
True anyways i havent read anything from dakka might that is even close to what the other guy is saying. Oh well enjoy.
Troike wrote: ....Sure, a Sister could be attractive, but the brutal fighting of 40K would likey dimish that. sooner or later....
On the upside, based on some calculations I ran a while back, just 10% KIA per annum keeps the average age in the low 20s, so most of them won't live long enough to become scarred, haggard, old, or otherwise unattractive!
Troike wrote: ....Sure, a Sister could be attractive, but the brutal fighting of 40K would likey dimish that. sooner or later....
On the upside, based on some calculations I ran a while back, just 10% KIA per annum keeps the average age in the low 20s, so most of them won't live long enough to become scarred, haggard, old, or otherwise unattractive!
Hell yes.
Nuns with guns and tight leather outfits is what we want.
Troike wrote: ....Sure, a Sister could be attractive, but the brutal fighting of 40K would likey dimish that. sooner or later....
On the upside, based on some calculations I ran a while back, just 10% KIA per annum keeps the average age in the low 20s, so most of them won't live long enough to become scarred, haggard, old, or otherwise unattractive!
Hell yes.
Nuns with guns and tight leather outfits is what we want.
Full armies of Grey Knights and Daemons, both of which should be in some ally capability but restricted, the Knights for their rarity and the daemons for their limited access to reality.
The Daemon army annoys me for the same reason it does in fantasy, if full armies of daemons were marching across realspace, the game would already be over. They should be mobs in a far more random 'chaos army' imo.
Melissia wrote: Eh, I like chaos daemons as separate, at least I don't have to put Whiney Spikey B... I mean Chaos Space Marines in the army
It'd be better if they'd add the Lost and the Damned army back in though.
Please for the love of the dark gods bring back the Lost and the Damned! Oh my gosh just have a model that is all about mutations, customize them into freakish monstrosities and let them lose mwahahahaha....
Troike wrote: ....Sure, a Sister could be attractive, but the brutal fighting of 40K would likey dimish that. sooner or later....
On the upside, based on some calculations I ran a while back, just 10% KIA per annum keeps the average age in the low 20s, so most of them won't live long enough to become scarred, haggard, old, or otherwise unattractive!
Oh wait that's fething horrific.
I have a sneaking suspicion that all human warriors in the Guard/Sisters would be on a ridiculous amount of steroids and associated PEDs. I've pictured Sisters looking more like middleweight powerlifters.
And yeah, a KIA/WIA rate of 10% is pretty bad. Depending on the unit, IRL that can relegate it combat ineffective.
Wow. I didn't think I could possibly have less respect for spikey whiney marines. But somehow, that video has managed to make me hate the faction even more.
Melissia wrote: Wow. I didn't think I could possibly have less respect for spikey whiney marines. But somehow, that video has managed to make me hate the faction even more.
You're annoying. Also, your statements were the first time I heard about "whiney CSM". Where the hell did you get that idea from?
Melissia wrote: Wow. I didn't think I could possibly have less respect for spikey whiney marines. But somehow, that video has managed to make me hate the faction even more.
Why? You realize that was a nonsensical, fan-made parody video, right? Because you're reacting as if it were officially published canon or something.
Dakkamite wrote: As for the rest of your rant, why the hell is it even directed at me?
It wasn't. Literally the only part of that post that was directed specifically at you was the opening part about Orks. Everything else was a general rant tacked on after that because it was something I wanted to say before I ever saw your post, which is why I go on about Necrons and other races you never really brought up. Honestly I don't know why I quoted you at all since I was more or less ranting at the thread in general and everyone in it, and could have done without that. You were just the last one I saw trying to "defend" Orks I guess and I wanted to pick on them first because in my mind they don't fit in any better than Tau do, but they get none of the hate. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
In case you couldn't tell this is a subject I take personally, probably too personally (though in my defense I've spent a lot of time and money collecting Tau so it should be no surprise I have a vested interest), and this is mainly the result of years worth of pent-up rage, and me getting bored enough one night and deciding to have a good bitch about what I perceive as an injustice instead of ignoring these threads like I usually do for the pointless bullgak they usually are. In fact for a long time I never even looked at this section of the forum because I knew what I'd probably find and wanted to save myself the trouble. I guess I just happened to see "Lamest Faction?" pop up while scrolling down and curiosity got the best of me. And none of the replies surprised me either, though I did see a lot more votes for Necrons than I expected. I guess I never realized their new fluff was that unpopular, I assumed everyone liked it because the C'tan were gone and Necrons had character, the two biggest complaints about the old fluff both dealt with.
As for wishing armies would get Squatted, that may or may not be all that common on Dakka in particular, but as it was pointed out earlier that sentiment isn't exactly uncommon in the community as a whole. I know for a fact I've seen people come out and say it directly many times, or otherwise imply that they wouldn't shed any tears should they happen to get eaten by Tyranids or the Imperium decides to finish it's abandoned crusade. And when it comes to the Squats especially you often see people defend GW's decision because "Dwarves in space were lame anyway!"
Archonate wrote: Some examples:
Unhealthy Tau firecaste babies mysteriously disappear.
Tau Firewarriors who don't perform to a certain standard mysteriously disappear.
Tau who question why some Tau mysteriously disappear will also mysteriously disappear.
A Tau trial by fire is often a Matrix-style mind game where you don't realize you're in a simulation, until you either experience your own horrifying death (at which point you wake up, utterly traumatized but having passed the test.) or you act toward self preservation and survive (at which point you wake up, having failed... and mysteriously disappear.)
Why does Aun'va want Farsight's head on a platter, despite Farsight still fighting for and being loyal to the Tau empire? Because Farsight disobeyed an order. (Even though it was for the greater good.)
Why does Farsight stay the hell away from the empire, aside from Aun'va wanting him dead? Because he figured out some of the scary-ass stuff the Ethereals are doing... And that's only because he's a genius who managed to make some frightening correlations over the course of his long life.
Tau who don't deny all sympathy for Farsight mysteriously disappear.
Pretty soon, races who reject assimilation into the Tau empire will mysteriously disappear.
It's a very "Big Brother is watching you" society... Creepy.
I also wanted to add that it seems like GW is dropping hints that Aun'Va is unnaturally extending his life span way beyond that of a normal Tau, and that other ethereals might be doing it as well since it says they're all longer-lived. But Aun'Va in particular, assuming I read the fluff right, must be very old himself since he was apparently around during the time when Farsight was in Puretide's tutelage, and he also ordered Shadowsun and O'Kais to be put into stasis indefinitely upon Puretide's death so that his vast knowledge could live on in as many forms as possible (they didn't even let him rest in peace, they took his body behind closed doors, dissected his brain and then rebuilt it into an advanced AI). If he doesn't match Farsight in age then he's still at least 100+ years old. It goes without saying that extending one's own lifespan kinda flies in the face of the concept of the Greater Good and making personal sacrifices for the benefit of the race as a whole, which Aun'Va demands of all Tau. The ethereals don't practice what they preach.
Everyone also likes to bring up the Tau's naivete and how they think they're so high-and-mighty while being so hilariously ignorant of the horrors of the universe...but in the Farsight supplement, it seems that the ethereals not only know about the horrors of the universe, but that they're purposely hiding that knowledge from the Tau and keeping the Empire in obedient ignorance. It's one of the revelations Farsight has after the incident on Arthas Moloch, which as you might have guessed, involves daemons and the Warp, and it shakes him so much that he goes into self-imposed exile over it.
There's definitely not something right about the ethereals. They're committing atrocities and war crimes left and right and no one questions them because they've got the Empire convinced it's all cold, hard logic or some other bs. It isn't until Farsight's expedition loses all of its ethereals in the battle on Arthas Moloch and the colonies continue to be prosperous despite their lack of spiritual guidance that Farsight starts looking back on the events of his life and drawing several conclusions.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Full armies of Grey Knights and Daemons, both of which should be in some ally capability but restricted, the Knights for their rarity and the daemons for their limited access to reality.
The Daemon army annoys me for the same reason it does in fantasy, if full armies of daemons were marching across realspace, the game would already be over. They should be mobs in a far more random 'chaos army' imo.
I agree with that somewhat.
The CSM army could bring psykers who are then able to "summon" daemons, who would then DS in as mobs of lesser daemons consisting of 5-30 daemons, and the GD could be elites choices etc.#
And as in the previous CSM codex, they could be able to not take up an FoC slot - which means that our force would be truly chaotic
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Full armies of Grey Knights and Daemons, both of which should be in some ally capability but restricted, the Knights for their rarity and the daemons for their limited access to reality.
The Daemon army annoys me for the same reason it does in fantasy, if full armies of daemons were marching across realspace, the game would already be over. They should be mobs in a far more random 'chaos army' imo.
I agree with that somewhat.
The CSM army could bring psykers who are then able to "summon" daemons, who would then DS in as mobs of lesser daemons consisting of 5-30 daemons, and the GD could be elites choices etc.#
And as in the previous CSM codex, they could be able to not take up an FoC slot - which means that our force would be truly chaotic
I'd be quite happy with them just being units on the table from the get-go, having been summoned prior to the battle.
I just remember that Daemon armies were originally created in Realm of Chaos, StD & LatD, to fight other Daemon armies, they were God specific and not to be used against regular armies because they were too damned powerful.
The whole distinction of Daemon, Marine and Renegade, along with Daemon, Warrior and Beastman in fantasy, is crazy to me, it should be a big mixing bowl of things, a howling horde of all thrown in together. Chaos shouldn't be so clearly defined and ordered...
Melissia wrote: Wow. I didn't think I could possibly have less respect for spikey whiney marines. But somehow, that video has managed to make me hate the faction even more.
CSM is my favourite faction. They are just so best in every concievable way. From Miniwargaming's 40K Rejects series to Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising to the latest wave of models (Particularly DV Chosen and the AC model), all of it is epic.
SarisKhan wrote: Also, your statements were the first time I heard about "whiney CSM". Where the hell did you get that idea from?
The most prominent example? The Horus Heresy, wherein many of the traitor legions and their primarchs were pathetically whiney. Angron for example was mad that his father didn't let him die. WHY ME, I WANTED TO DIIIIIEEEEE!!!! Freaking emo brat. Most of the other traitor primarchs were similarly pathetic. Perhaps two or three were sympathetic, likeable characters.
SarisKhan wrote: Also, your statements were the first time I heard about "whiney CSM". Where the hell did you get that idea from?
The most prominent example? The Horus Heresy, wherein many of the traitor legions and their primarchs were pathetically whiney. Angron for example was mad that his father didn't let him die. WHY ME, I WANTED TO DIIIIIEEEEE!!!! Freaking emo brat. Most of the other traitor primarchs were similarly pathetic.
I still say that in a normal sci-fi setting, the Tau as written would be the grimdark faction that everyone fears. The bogeyman stories would make them fear what "The Tau" would do to them if they don't submit to the Greater Good and it's Utopian vision.
SarisKhan wrote: Also, your statements were the first time I heard about "whiney CSM". Where the hell did you get that idea from?
The most prominent example? The Horus Heresy, wherein many of the traitor legions and their primarchs were pathetically whiney. Angron for example was mad that his father didn't let him die. WHY ME, I WANTED TO DIIIIIEEEEE!!!! Freaking emo brat. Most of the other traitor primarchs were similarly pathetic. Perhaps two or three were sympathetic, likeable characters.
Angron wanted to fight and die with his gladiator friends. They were the only comrades he'd ever known in his entire life. They were the only ones who stood with him against their tyrannical overlords. They were basically family to him. Of course he'd rather not have his skin forcibly saved, only to have to watch the only friends he's ever had die. He gets vengeful as a result.
A Primarch has a somewhat realistic and understandable reaction = he's whiny.
Wow.
Just... Wow.
Imagine that Goge Vandire had been powerful enough to kill Alicia Dominica & co. Would they have been whiny if they had been upset over not being allowed to try and bring him to justice after their little revelation?
Angron wanted to fight and die with his gladiator friends. They were the only comrades he'd ever known in his entire life. They were the only ones who stood with him against their tyrannical overlords. They were basically family to him. Of course he'd rather not have his skin forcibly saved, only to have to watch the only friends he's ever had die. He gets vengeful as a result.
Angron was pretty deluded as well, he very well may have thought he could have lead his army to victory, he very well may have blamed the Emperor for his "families" deaths.
There is a difference between the selfish desires of an eternally angry egomaniac-- IE Angron's pointless, wasteful daethwish-- and a desire to try to change the Imperium for the better. Alicia Dominica was not just trying to die out of some warped sense of family, but because she wanted to save trillions of lives from Vandire's madness.
Even if she had failed, that would still put her as morally superior to Angron. Angron's a villain, that's all he ever will be. He's not even a particularly interesting villain. Neither are most of the other traitor primarchs.
Melissia wrote: There is a difference between the selfish desires of an eternally angry egomaniac-- IE Angron's pointless, wasteful daethwish-- and a desire to try to change the Imperium for the better. Alicia Dominica was not just trying to die out of some warped sense of family, but because she wanted to save trillions of lives from Vandire's madness.
Even if she had failed, that would still put her as morally superior to Angron. Angron's a villain, that's all he ever will be. He's not even a particularly interesting villain. Neither are most of the other traitor primarchs.
what's explicitly wrong with a fictional character being a villain? And it seems you have forgotten that in 40k there are no heroes...
I find the argument that any person in the Imperium, especially those that are defending the Imperium being morally superior to anyone else in the setting quite hilarious.
Lets not forget that Angron, whilst a bezerker, before he was taken by the big E, he was not currently inducted into the xenophobic, racist, genocidal etc etc Imperium, and this was the great crusade era, it didn't even include all the religious dogma reasoning behind it that the later Imperium used to justify it.
Bronzefists42 wrote: what's explicitly wrong with a fictional character being a villain?
Nothing. But it does mean that, unless they're particualrly sympathetic (Angron is not), I don't cheer for them. I don't LIKE them; I want to see them defeated and cast down.
Magnus One-Eye presents a traitor primarch that is much more sympathetic and much better written, for example. I can sympathize iwth why he turned traitor. I don't for Angron.
Bronzefists42 wrote: And it seems you have forgotten that in 40k there are no heroes...
On the contrary, there are heroes everywhere, just as there are also villains everywhere.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I find the argument that any person in the Imperium, especially those that are defending the Imperium being morally superior to anyone else in the setting quite hilarious.
Lets not forget that Angron, whilst a bezerker, before he was taken by the big E, he was not currently inducted into the xenophobic, racist, genocidal etc etc Imperium, and this was the great crusade era, it didn't even include all the religious dogma reasoning behind it that the later Imperium used to justify it.
Morally superior.... What a phrase to use.
The argument on its own is flawed for a 40k one. Moral high ground doesn't even exist in 40k much less does it define how well written a character is. And to be fair the emprah didn't care enough to make Angron anything but a bezerker.
It is appalling that you would suggest that a person, even a fictional one, who wishes to slaughter a billion people in order to sacrifice their blood to selfishly raise his own power so that he might put a reign of terror over billions more, is somehow morally equivalent to a person who would try to stop him explicitly to save those people, with no benefit to themselves.
There is moral ambiguity in 40k. But it isn't so gray that everything blends together and becomes samey.
Bronzefists42 wrote: what's explicitly wrong with a fictional character being a villain?
Nothing. But it does mean that, unless they're particualrly sympathetic (Angron is not), I don't cheer for them. I don't LIKE them; I want to see them defeated and cast down.
Magnus One-Eye presents a traitor primarch that is much more sympathetic and much better written, for example. I can sympathize iwth why he turned traitor. I don't for Angron.
Bronzefists42 wrote: And it seems you have forgotten that in 40k there are no heroes...
On the contrary, there are heroes everywhere, just as there are also villains everywhere.
....
What.
40k does not have any heroes. They have people considered heroes by their factions but in reality are just as bad as everyone else. All of the Primarchs were hideously flawed and honestly some of the loyalists should be traitors the way they acted. And that's the Horus Heresy. Here we have 40k where everyone is insane and/or desperate. It so grimdark there can't be any real heros.
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Melissia wrote: It is appalling that you would suggest that a person, even a fictional one, who wishes to slaughter a billion people in order to sacrifice their blood to selfishly raise his own power so that he might put a reign of terror over billions more, is somehow morally equivalent to a person who would try to stop him explicitly to save those people, with no benefit to themselves.
There is moral ambiguity in 40k. But it isn't so gray that everything blends together and becomes samey.
I'm saying is the Imperium isn't much better. Even if it is for the benefit of mankind, the Imperium is horrible to it's populace it doesn't matter if they save them since their lives are so horrendous. I'm not saying Angron has any moral high ground at all just that no one in the IOM is any better.
Sorry for going off on that. Tau aren't that bad. Not everything in the universe has to be extra grimdark with a side of depression. Even then the Tau are pretty freaky on their own in how they structure their culture and lives.
I do think there are genuine heroes in the setting -- they're just all tragic ones: The genuinely good people who refuse to do horrific things even though they know the result will be their crushing defeat, and the genuinely good people who realize the only way to avoid defeat is to do horrifying things even though they know they'll stop being good people.....
SisterSydney wrote: I do think there are genuine heroes in the setting -- they're just all tragic ones: The genuinely good people who refuse to do horrific things even though they know the result will be their crushing defeat, and the genuinely good people who realize the only way to avoid defeat is to do horrifying things even though they know they'll stop being good people.....
There are people in 40k that honestly try to do good things, both great and small. Therefor there are heroes.
Whether or not they succeed is irrelevant. A fallen hero was once a hero, even if they aret any longer. A flawed hero is still a hero to some extent. An anti-hero is still trying to do good things, even if they're bad at it. And so on and so forth. Not all heroes have to be perfect moral paragons.
Melissia wrote: It is appalling that you would suggest that a person, even a fictional one, who wishes to slaughter a billion people in order to sacrifice their blood to selfishly raise his own power so that he might put a reign of terror over billions more, is somehow morally equivalent to a person who would try to stop him explicitly to save those people, with no benefit to themselves.
There is moral ambiguity in 40k. But it isn't so gray that everything blends together and becomes samey.
Huh? Umm, Angron was not aligned with Khorne at that time, so that statement is irrelevant, there is no argument for morales in the 40k setting.
There are definitely heroes in the fiction for 40K. Colonel Commissar Gaunt, for example. He is a flawed hero, as he is still tied to the Imperial Commissar dogma, but time and time again he tries to do the best to keep the First and Only from being ground into the dirt by commanders who don't dare like other regiments. He actually sees them as people.
I personally think all the Primarchs are, at least to some extent, sociopaths. Doesn't matter if it's Horus or Guilliman. They aren't quite human, and so are portrayed as having lines of thought that are pretty alien. I think the Lion in particular is well-written that way in the books.
Angron's grudge against the Emperor was justified.
Everything else was not. It's easy to forget that he was a total donkey-cave to people that had never wronged him, such as Argel Tal.
The Butcher's Nails can account for some of Angron's psychopathic actions, but not all of them. He isn't a good person, even among the traitor Primarchs. With his ascension to Daemonhood, he's become a monster.
Not sure why that makes him whiny. He hated the Emperor because his family was slaughtered like animals and Emprah forced him to not help them. Someone being upset about his entire family dying = Whiny? Who knew.
Everything else was not. It's easy to forget that he was a total donkey-cave to people that had never wronged him, such as Argel Tal.
The Butcher's Nails can account for some of Angron's psychopathic actions, but not all of them. He isn't a good person, even among the traitor Primarchs. With his ascension to Daemonhood, he's become a monster.
Not sure why that makes him whiny. He hated the Emperor because his family was slaughtered like animals and Emprah forced him to not help them. Someone being upset about his entire family dying = Whiny? Who knew.
Though he can out-debate Leman Russ.
I rather enjoyed watching that stuck up bastard get his ass handed to him in a an argument and the get his ass handed to him gain in a combat where he attacked.
XXXX
I never thought about any of the Black Library novels (other than Horus Heresy. I was thinking more the "heroes" depicted in the rulebooks and background sections.
It should also be noted that IIRC, Primarchs experienced emotions in far greater intensity than mortal humans or Astartes, similar to the Eldar. And Astartes already experience emotions in greater strength than humans. And enraged humans can already succumb to crimes of passion.
Really, the GEOM should have simply attempted to mold the Primarchs into Vulkan's personality. If they're going to experience emotions of crippling strength, at least let them weep for humanity and aspire to protect it.
(Reminds me as well of the Black Legion Chaos Space Marine that cries for every single enemy he kills.)
Jes Goodwin talks about the problems in detail in that first source I linked. Essentially, it seems to be that they want to do something new with the models, but can't due to the differences betweens metal models and posable plastic models. Take it as you will:
...snip...
Ahh, thanks for that. That makes a lot more sense; it being the nature of the design, rather than the original models, posing problems in designing new multi-part plastic kits. I still have my suspicions about the non-studio parts of GW, but there is clearly a lot more going on here than I originally believed.
Wyzilla wrote: It should also be noted that IIRC, Primarchs experienced emotions in far greater intensity than mortal humans or Astartes, similar to the Eldar. And Astartes already experience emotions in greater strength than humans. And enraged humans can already succumb to crimes of passion.
Really, the GEOM should have simply attempted to mold the Primarchs into Vulkan's personality. If they're going to experience emotions of crippling strength, at least let them weep for humanity and aspire to protect it.
(Reminds me as well of the Black Legion Chaos Space Marine that cries for every single enemy he kills.)
I really liked that merry band. A singing heavy weapons guy, a previously happy dude that got considerably less happy when he got some strange mutations, and so on.
Wyzilla wrote: It should also be noted that IIRC, Primarchs experienced emotions in far greater intensity than mortal humans or Astartes, similar to the Eldar. And Astartes already experience emotions in greater strength than humans. And enraged humans can already succumb to crimes of passion.
Really, the GEOM should have simply attempted to mold the Primarchs into Vulkan's personality. If they're going to experience emotions of crippling strength, at least let them weep for humanity and aspire to protect it.
(Reminds me as well of the Black Legion Chaos Space Marine that cries for every single enemy he kills.)
I really liked that merry band. A singing heavy weapons guy, a previously happy dude that got considerably less happy when he got some strange mutations, and so on.
And the sobbing Black Legion CSM that weeps for his enemies that will never know the love of the Chaos Gods.
In my opinion, Orks are the lamest faction. I feel that they're laughably one-dimensional: Orks only care about fighting, which is all they do in this setting; they aren't easy to relate to, like the Imperial Guard; they aren't even exceptionally evil like Chaos Space Marines. The only reason Orks exist is to provide an ubiquitous foe that a given army can fight when there aren't any other enemies.
My favorite factions are the Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines. The former because it represents the unbreakable spirit of humanity, and the latter because they are wicked and unrepentant.
One could say that Chaos Space Marines are themselves one-dimensional in their cartoonish wickedness. However, I think that their fall from grace and their sometimes justified hatred towards the Imperium is much more interesting than a faction that can't be characterized beyond a love of fighting is.
In addition, Chaos Space Marines have some of the best Black Library fluff released; Aaron Demski-Bowden's Night Lords novels are not only good 40k books, but also good sci-fi books in general. Orks, on the other hand, have no such thing.
Orks are far too awesome to need a reason to exist.
Their love of fighting is something that is truly alien, they take it to the logical extreme in every way. That's a good amount of the reason why they're both funny AND frightening, which gives them far more depths than boring factions like CSMs.
Black Knight wrote: In addition, Chaos Space Marines have all of the worst Black Library fluff released
Orks are far too awesome to need a reason to exist.
Their love of fighting is something that is truly alien, they take it to the logical extreme in every way. That's a good amount of the reason why they're both funny AND frightening, which gives them far more depths than boring factions like CSMs.
Black Knight wrote: In addition, Chaos Space Marines have all of the worst Black Library fluff released
Fixed that for you
I think you might want to re-read your loyalist SM books oh and most of SoB appearances. Watch the loyalists be 100x better and sisters gain faith from watching SPEES WULVES!
Also, let us be honest. Orks are lame. Tau are lame. SM are lame. Eldar? Lame. CSM? Lame. Daemons? Lame. Every single faction in this is lame. It's all so blatantly ripped off of other things and tossed together with little regard and so every faction is lame to no end.... which is why they are all glorious (although all of us will find certain factions lame. For example, Necrons for me )
Orks are far too awesome to need a reason to exist.
Their love of fighting is something that is truly alien, they take it to the logical extreme in every way. That's a good amount of the reason why they're both funny AND frightening, which gives them far more depths than boring factions like CSMs.
Black Knight wrote: In addition, Chaos Space Marines have all of the worst Black Library fluff released
Fixed that for you
How the hell is CSM fluff bad? It's certainly better than nearly everything released for Loyalist Astartes or Sisters of Battle. It even manages to create sympathetic characters despite them being utter monsters, which is a bloody literary miracle.
Yep, They are Sue-tastic, case closed, Necrons win (lose?) this contest, good thing the rest of 
I mean, it's fairly ridiculous when people refer to the Ultramarines as Mary Sues because it's also typically wrong, but the Necrons are just poorly written Grimdark^10. They're not Mary Sues.
up by some Necron ships/ 
