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Exalted!

I have been playing Necrons since they came out, have every model except the triarch stalker, even have a Necron BFG fleet. I can say with authority that they never contradicted the fluff over the years, but even I don't like the direction the story went. I was hoping just for soulless robots that had turned on their masters. In fact I didn't even want them to be evil, but just emotionless and dangerous like Terminators or Borg. All the stuff with the C'tan bothers me on a deep level.

I agree. Though I liked the former version of the C'Tan being eldritch star-gods versus the "Shards". It was almost like they were the "Queens" to the Necron's "Borg". And I really liked how the Necrons, originally, were simply the mechanical counterpart to the Tyranids. They were a blight on the civilizations of the galaxy, but like the 'Nids they were motivated by seemingly-unknowable purposes, which made them all the scarier. Now with the updated fluff they are too personalized,other than the single dynasty that is like their original version.

And then GW did wierd things to their tech-level. They nerfed the superiority of their ships, but then gave them machines that can destroy suns with a flip of the switch.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

I have been playing Necrons since they came out, have every model except the triarch stalker, even have a Necron BFG fleet. I can say with authority that they never contradicted the fluff over the years, but even I don't like the direction the story went. I was hoping just for soulless robots that had turned on their masters. In fact I didn't even want them to be evil, but just emotionless and dangerous like Terminators or Borg. All the stuff with the C'tan bothers me on a deep level.

I agree. Though I liked the former version of the C'Tan being eldritch star-gods versus the "Shards". It was almost like they were the "Queens" to the Necron's "Borg". And I really liked how the Necrons, originally, were simply the mechanical counterpart to the Tyranids. They were a blight on the civilizations of the galaxy, but like the 'Nids they were motivated by seemingly-unknowable purposes, which made them all the scarier. Now with the updated fluff they are too personalized,other than the single dynasty that is like their original version.

And then GW did wierd things to their tech-level. They nerfed the superiority of their ships, but then gave them machines that can destroy suns with a flip of the switch.

No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.

Exalted.

In no particular order:

CSM - I just cannot get into their fluff. I go cross-eyed anytime I read anything about them. The idea of them was great for the Heresy, but once that was done, they should have been consumed by the warp - leaving just demons as the agents of chaos.

GK/SM - I feel like there should be a middle ground of rarity and power between GK and SM that are really where a single faction of elite power armored super humans occupy. GK are just too over the top and SM are just too common and ever present.

Necrons - Again, there are great bits in both the oldcrons and newcrons that would make them really one of the most interesting factions in 40k for me in the right combinations. It just isn't quite there at the moment. A little more mystery, a little less time travel and "we can snuff out any star when we want to" type of plot hammer tech.

Tau - They needed to push these guys a little further down the grimdark path.

No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.

I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?

If memory serves me they lost inertia less and had to go slow but have access to a SUPER fast web way with less exits but faaaster ones.

Intertia-less drives were reintroduced in a new Imperial Armor book.

That said, even when they lacked FTL capabilities, the Necron fleet was still very powerful. Not very fast, sure, but very durable and armed with powerful weaponry.

Okay yeah Necrons for lamest faction :U Sorry just... faster? Time controlling? Better tech? STAR DESTROYING? killing close to god levels? Re-animations from obscene amounts of damage? MILLIONS of planets with them hidden within making them a large number? super damaging tech that blows up because best tech? Shut down warp? have access to the webway (certain parts at least)? have ana astronmer that can outpredict every other guy it seems and unlike Tzeentch whom is arguably equally as capable is more open about it. Tzeentch can have it cause tzeentch will only really ever tell part of the truth but wat? have anti-psyker and realm nonsense that feths with things? Just sorry it is all just... too much

 AegisGrimm wrote:

No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.

I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?

Imperial Armor returns them to the status of being WTF?! level of power. Don't worry, your tin men are still more than capable of smacking the Imperium all the way up the galaxy and all the way down again.

That's fine with me! I actually have a BFG fleet, as much as a bear as it is to fight against them.

As an aside with Necrons, surely I am not the only one that thinks GW missed a huge fluff opportunity when they first fleshed out the Necrons. I personaly think it would have been a very interesting trip if they had turned out to be awakening remnants of the Iron Men, back for revenge on the Humans. Literally everything about the Necrons could have been the same, save for the removal of their age and the C'Tan, to be replaced by them being "an eldritch and horrible remnant of the Golden Age of Humanity, now awakening after going into stasis to escape the purge after failing to win their war against their creators".

The "millions of years" old part always kind of irked me. Hundreds of thousands would have been just fine, but it just seems like the age of Necrons fell victim to GW's ever-inflating numbers on everything.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

The "millions of years" old part always kind of irked me. Hundreds of thousands would have been just fine, but it just seems like the age of Necrons fell victim to GW's ever-inflating numbers on everything.

Fluff-wise, I think that the Necrons' age helps explain why their tech is so wicked. It's also something of a Lovecraftian theme to make a mysterious and powerful being or entity be millions of years old, a time-span inconceivable to the human mind, rather than hundreds of thousands of years, which is only slightly older than humanity itself. Their age is a testament to their significance I suppose. Sleeping for just a few hundred thousand years wasn't as impressive, I guess?

Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Newcrons and it isn't even close.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Huge numbers? Really? The IoM and Orks outnumber them by a fair margin. Hell, the Eldar probably outnumber them.

There are millions of Tomb Worlds.

They outnumber every other race save the Tyranids and Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.

Loyalist marines are at least badass in their own way, even if they're overdone to the point of me simply being bored at seeing them on the field. But the traitor ones... strike me as anything but.

Thousand Sons: Fell to survive.

Emperor's Children: Fell because Slaanesh corrupted their minds and souls.

Death Guard: Fell because they are just sinister. Turned to Nurgle out of desperation to survive.

World Eaters: Fell because their Primarch is insane. Also, it must be said that the Emperor did not help things by antagonizing Angron, and did in fact plan to allow the Butcher's Nails to slowly kill him, not wanting to spend the effort to cure him. The Emperor is stupid.

Night Lords: Read above.

Iron Warriors: Old fluff, largely fell because they were a Legion of sinister sociopaths. Newer fluff is a bit more complex, Perturabo left the Emperor's side because he thought only Horus would condone his recent actions.

Word Bearers: Fell due to a crisis of Faith caused by the Emperor, and admittedly because Lorgar was, by canon, the weakest-willed of the Primarchs. You might have a point with this guy.

Luna Wolves: Yeah, this one is mostly just Horus being a pussy.

Alpha Legion: Fell because Alpharius is stupid.

So which ones fell because they were whiny again?

Iron Warriors fell because the guys wearing yellow got more recognition, and their panties got in a twist about it. That has always been the backstory behind it.

Not true anymore.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
(...)
World Eaters: Fell because their Primarch is insane. Also, it must be said that the Emperor did not help things by antagonizing Angron, and did in fact plan to allow the Butcher's Nails to slowly kill him, not wanting to spend the effort to cure him. The Emperor is stupid.

Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.
Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.
Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.

I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.

Iron Warriors: Old fluff, largely fell because they were a Legion of sinister sociopaths. Newer fluff is a bit more complex, Perturabo left the Emperor's side because he thought only Horus would condone his recent actions.

I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.

Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.

Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.

Word Bearers: Fell due to a crisis of Faith caused by the Emperor, and admittedly because Lorgar was, by canon, the weakest-willed of the Primarchs. You might have a point with this guy.

It was a matter of faith.

And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.

Luna Wolves: Yeah, this one is mostly just Horus being a pussy.

Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.

There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.

Alpha Legion: Fell because Alpharius is stupid.

Agreed.

I blame this on the newest fluff. The Index Astartes was fine.

So which ones fell because they were whiny again?

I have the impression that Marines, and Primarchs by extension, are 12 years old teenagers from an emotional point of view. They lack everything that makes an adult adult. They are not humans after all.

 Truth118 wrote:

Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.

Technically, the chaos gods have always existed, as the Warp's boundaries are not affected by time. They only became sentient after humanity came along, but they can affect past events.

Which is how there is a Daemon Prince who is said to have existed since the dawn of time.

 Selym wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:

Maybe we just don't view things the same way, but I was "underwhelmed" by the age of most of the Chaos Gods, thinking them ancient beings that've been around for likewise millions of years, before realizing most of them are younger than mankind. After learning more about how Daemons are a manifestation of the emotions of warp-sensitive species, it made more sense to me.

Technically, the chaos gods have always existed, as the Warp's boundaries are not affected by time. They only became sentient after humanity came along, but they can affect past events.

Which is how there is a Daemon Prince who is said to have existed since the dawn of time.

In other words, the gods of chaos were being formed, became to be, then Doctor Who became a big thing on earth and somehow influenced them by introducing them to timey whimey shenanigans to be at all points but not cause the warp!

I know it isn't a popular opinion and most will disagree with me, but to me, the lamest faction is Orks. I've never liked them. To me they do not fit the setting at all. They are a joke race, and not a funny one at that. In a sci-fi universe, you have these primitive barbarians with no goals beyond just fighting. And they are actually considered a serious threat! To me, it feels like they only reason they are even in the game world is that they were grandfathered in from original editions, back when the game was less 'serious' in tone. Now, they no longer belong.

Even their physical appearance is out of place. When I look at any artwork, or even a game in progress on the tabletop, it looks like someone has accidentally placed a character from some other setting by mistake.

 Cryogen wrote:
I know it isn't a popular opinion and most will disagree with me, but to me, the lamest faction is Orks. I've never liked them. To me they do not fit the setting at all. They are a joke race, and not a funny one at that. In a sci-fi universe, you have these primitive barbarians with no goals beyond just fighting. And they are actually considered a serious threat! To me, it feels like they only reason they are even in the game world is that they were grandfathered in from original editions, back when the game was less 'serious' in tone. Now, they no longer belong.

Even their physical appearance is out of place. When I look at any artwork, or even a game in progress on the tabletop, it looks like someone has accidentally placed a character from some other setting by mistake.

Well, they aren't primitive.

Their technology is crude, but functional, and in some cases (Like the Shokk Attack Gun) revolutionary.


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 da001 wrote:
Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.

I've read After De'Shea, and do not recall this being said in this many words.

Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.

Indeed.

Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.

Specifically, he said that were the Butcher's Nails not making him an "immoral man", he would be obliged to do so himself.

I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.

I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. I like to think that the Emperor's mistakes were a result of simply being so far above humanity that he could not truly understand them. His psychic might was so great that it compensated for a lack of real charisma among mortals, but among his sons, who were not so easily influenced, all it did was turn them against him.

I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.

Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.

Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.

You read Angel Exterminatus?

It was a matter of faith.

And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.

Lorgar is insane. He hears voices, the Chaos Gods have been whispering in his ear and directing his life since he was an infant. He was their toy since the day he was sped into the Warp.

Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.

There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.

True, but ultimately, his tipping point was seeing a future where people don't build statues of him or revere him as their demigodlike sex doll.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

No, their ships are still fiendishly powerful and can solo fleets. Imperial Armor has an Imperial Fleet being majorly up by some Necron ships/ IIRC, kicked completely out of the system.

I do not have the current Necron Codex, I thought there was a huge muttering about GW downgrading their ships to big, slow old fashioned torch-ships, rather than the old inertia-less drives that they had in BFG?

Their ships were retconned to being very slow for interstellar travel without access to the webway. Their combat speeds were never explicitly changed though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Intertia-less drives were reintroduced in a new Imperial Armor book.

Where?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Angron only accepted command after being assured by Kharn that the Legion will follow him against his father.

I've read After De'Shea, and do not recall this being said in this many words.

Yep. But it is heavily implied.

He kept talking about the Emperor as a tyrant, and at the end he asked to whom did the War Hounds swear to follow him ("we are your instrument and yours to command (...) you are our Primarch. Not just our commander, but our bloodsire, our fountain head"). He specifically asked if that oath was to the Emperor, and accepted to be their leader after Kharn answered "we swore to each other".

Angron tried to kill his father before the Heresy. Killed some Custodes and was stopped.

Indeed.

Angron said everyone that he saw his father as a tyrant who has to be killed.

Specifically, he said that were the Butcher's Nails not making him an "immoral man", he would be obliged to do so himself.

I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. It is the most logical explanation for the way he treated some of his sons, with Angron being perhaps the most obvious example.

I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. I like to think that the Emperor's mistakes were a result of simply being so far above humanity that he could not truly understand them. His psychic might was so great that it compensated for a lack of real charisma among mortals, but among his sons, who were not so easily influenced, all it did was turn them against him.

I think you are wrong. Since Index Astartes there is more stuff about Perturabo.

Some Primarchs tried to conquer their world and failed, like Angron or Mortarion. But Perturabo didn´t even try. It was enough for him to serve as an advisor to his foster father, Dammekos. When the Emperor arrived to Olympia, he was not happy to see his son obeying an old man. He deposed Dammekos and forced his son to become a military leader. A man that spent the rest of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia, with Perturabo refusing to make something about it.

Eventually Dammekos got killed. Imperial assassins? Word Bearers? Olympia broke into open rebellion and the Iron Warriors found themselves being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world. At this point both Horus and the Word Bearers carefully manipulated the events.

You read Angel Exterminatus?

I have. Sort of meh. Liked the way Perturabo and Fulgrim are described, deeply disliked the "survivors of the drop site massacre" subplot.

No reason is given for the rebellion on Olympia. But there is a flashback with Perturabo climbing to the fortress of Lochos, and the guards calling the Tyrant. The name Dammekos -aka the Tyrant of Lochos- is used. Move forward to Horus Heresy, and Olympia is already destroyed. So the Index Astartes is not retconned, just ignored. The book also describes Perturabo lacking interest in being a general, a leader or a conqueror. He likes to build things, which fits the previous background.

I also found found it extra fluffy that Perturabo willingly swore allegiance to Horus when he decided to side with him, while Fulgrim didn´t.

It was a matter of faith.

And he was the strongest-willed by far of all the Primarchs. He was the only one to question what he was doing, and why, and acted accordingly. The rest just obeyed orders or let their doubts turn them traitors. Lorgar searched the truth and did what he felt had to be done. That´s having your own will.

Lorgar is insane. He hears voices, the Chaos Gods have been whispering in his ear and directing his life since he was an infant. He was their toy since the day he was sped into the Warp.

The Chaos Gods have many toys, that they spend and waste power into. But they are useless to them in the long run.

Those who freely give them their loyalty are the most worthy Champion of Chaos. The gods need a decision, "by your own will", to damn your soul. It is not funny, nor useful for them to force people to do things. Lorgar was manipulated and lied, but at the end it was his decision, taken by him and him alone, what kicked off the Horus Heresy.

An interpretation, of course. Kor Phaeron was the most obvious influence on Lorgar since he was a child. It is interesting to compare the relationships between Perturabo/Dammekos, Lorgar/Kor Phaeron and The Lion/Luther.

Perhaps. Sometimes I get this impression too.

There are a lot of things we don´t know though. In his vision, he hits the pod of a missing Primarch in anger. What happened to them? He also knew well enough what happened to the Thunder Warriors, killed as soon as they were no longer needed, betrayed by their father. And the High Lords of Terra, mere humans, were giving orders and acting in the name of his father.

True, but ultimately, his tipping point was seeing a future where people don't build statues of him or revere him as their demigodlike sex doll.

Using your own words: "I admit that this interpretation is valid, but I just personally do not like it. " Horus clearly behaves like a spoiled brat and an idiot, but there are enough... blind spots in their reasonings to allow me to believe that there is something more interesting inside.

Perhaps his tipping point was thinking that, once the war was won, his only reason to exist will be waiting for his father to die and inherit the throne. And his father had been about 45000 years around at that point.

The only Primarch who was written as a total idiot was Alpharius. Funny enough, it is the only traitor Primarch which original (and awesome) background from Index Astartes was retconned. Not a coincidence.

Necrons and because they are metal zombie skeleton robots with lasers. Mhmm, sureeeeeeeee

That's the silliest thing you can think of in this game? Seriously?

If I may quote myself from another thread; The fluff of Grey Knights is that they're supposed to be the fearless monster slayers of the 40k. Thanks to a certain someone, they are now girl slaughtering cowardly sociopaths who started worshiping Khorne (poorly and without martial honor) and are too inbred to realize it

Not really a faction, but I hate Ratlings. How the hell do you figure dwarf bikers with machine guns and power armor are silly, but then keep pervy hobbits that steal spoons.

 Truth118 wrote:
To me, probably Space Marines with Tau a close second, although they're the most popular. They're the generic human warriors in power armor.

In a sci-fi universe, although the Imperium in 40k has its own style that's come to grow on me, dudes in brightly-colored armor with large, blocky guns rate low on the totem pole. They're simply not different and unique enough imo.

I don't dislike any of the races in 40k, fluff or tabletop (okay, maybe Tau), but Space Marines are somewhat lame to me.

You can't really call it unoriginal or cliche when they're the ones that really kicked it off. (as in popular and wide spread) The whole game was started around them and for them. Its like saying I love Star Trek but this whole "go where no man has gone before thing" is soooo done before. What a rip-off!"

 Melissia wrote:
Chaos Marines. Bunch of whiny "manly men" who are angry at their dad and thus embrace stupidity and insanity.

Loyalist marines are at least badass in their own way, even if they're overdone to the point of me simply being bored at seeing them on the field. But the traitor ones... strike me as anything but.

I concur, supporting the Chaosguys seems to be like supporting a bunch of emo-teens with Daddy issues.

 StarTrotter wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Wait... Necrons can time travel?

At this point it'd be easier to list the things they can't do.

Eat.

"They're also the best at eating, besting even the Tyranids at the species-eating contest having devoured 5x the galaxies"

Codex: Necrons 6th Ed (2014)

They are also the best pokemon trainers!

What if all of these grimdark wars are going on and the Necrons just want to be pokemon masters.

Or the Sisters, who are, in their basis, a gimmick made into a faction.



No really, won't poke the bees' nest. I have said my opinion already.

I really hate whoever was the last faction to beat me on tabletop. Total cheesemongers, and their fluff sucks.