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The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago and just now are coming back with a new codex.

I think it would have been a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Also considering they appear pretty much nowhere in the fluff that I've read.

 Khorne's Herald wrote:
The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago and just now are coming back with a new codex.

I think it would have been a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Also considering they appear pretty much nowhere in the fluff that I've read.

The book "Helsreach" contains some SoB, and one GK book (the first in an omnibus, iirc) sees the GK working with some SoB.

 Khorne's Herald wrote:
The only army I ever had a problem with are the SOB. I mean let's be honest there's a reason they disappeared from the GW site a few years ago

They never disappeared, they've always had a section on the GW site for their models, under the 40K armies section.

 Khorne's Herald wrote:
they appear pretty much nowhere in the fluff that I've read.

Yeah, as armies go, they're under-represented in the fluff overall. Though not as much as you'd think, it's just that a lot of fluff about them is in older, more obscure sources.

Daemons. They just don't work as an army for me. As a unit within a Chaos army, with all their sorcerers and cultists, fine. But just an army of daemons, I don't see it. All marching around in their little squads and such. Maybe it's the fact that they're not tied to the SPAAAACE theme. Like... Forest Folk. As a 40k faction.

 McNinja wrote:
The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because

... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.

Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.

 Melissia wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The Orks technically could be a very intimidating race, but they aren't "serious" because

... internet memes are stupid but a lot of people buy in to them.

Orks are quite grimdark right now, but a lot of people can't see past the stupid memes to actually get to the good stuff, and this time it isn't actually GW's fault. It's the fault of the fanbase being stupid and unimaginative.

*Had to Google "internet meme" to figure out you were calling me stupid and unimaginative. Sorry, I have a spouse for that - but then again what did you expect from a soulless robot? No, Orks are still cartoonish and sculpted like thalidomide mutants with overloaded diapers. Nobody takes them seriously.

Orks aren't cartoonish, they're frightening, unstoppable hordes of technobarbarians who are care for nothing but war.

They're fungus with cockney accents who lose in almost every story they feature in.

Orks will kill you, your family, your dog and burn your house while laughing their asses off. If that's not scary I don't know what it is.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They're fungus with cockney accents who lose in almost every story they feature in.

They lose so often in fluff because they are such a 'common' foe.

For example, there is a reason that in many SM stories they begin fighting Orks, and then go on to foes like Tyranids or Chaos Marines as the story progresses. The Orks are widespread and, while they are threatening, an invasion of Tyranids or Chaos Marines are on a different level of threat entirely. Of course, Orks are just as capable of being massive threats, what with Waaagh!s and the like, but a small 'build-up' enemy of Daemons or the like simply seems to work less well and be less plausible than its Ork counterpart.

This is, of course, in part due to their motivation and modus operandi. When the Daemons invade a world, they [i]mean[i/] it. It is not nice to be on that planet. The Orks, on the other hand, are happy to go on small warbands that a local garrison has a chance of containing, and often stick around even after seemingly being wiped out.

Tyranids, on a model basis are the lamest, they still hold 'guns', the ones with claws and guns implemented into their body better are cool, but I just can't get pass the gaunts holding guns=LAME!

Fluff wise, necrons by and large; if I had to pick between the two, it'll be nids.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

And third. IG. In a setting of super men and aliens and this that and the other, just regular disposable joe is just not that interesting. The only time I ever even contemplated an IG army is if I could do an entire army (including tanks) using Valkyria Chronicles tanks and guys as proxies.

Yup, because in WH40K fluff you cant see mere human fighting aliens and...oh wait...

Sorry mate, but read the fluff better next time, those average joes are still important part of IoM military activities. And for some people they are veeeery interesting - mainly because of those super men and aliens - and fact they can die when you stab them thousand times with pointy toothpick

For me is sometimes irritating when gamers try to boost their homemade fluffy guardsmen "they are super-recon-shock-sniper specialist and they are famous for killing this daemon and that Exarch and my company commander wrote his name into Magnus' heart!" (and still, they die as easily as my poor footsloggers)

I never said they were not important. I said they are boring. If I wanted normal guys in normal tanks etc, there are dozens of other war games that I could choose. With just as good or better fluff and better rules. This thread is about opinion anyway, so yeah, I find the IG sorta lame and uninteresting. I wouldn't remove them from the game because I can understand why someone would like them, however, that someone is just not me.

Have to give my vote to SM, its just that their so OTT in fluff. Might be a bit biased, hobbying with my little evil versions. But the way loyalists massacre through their traitor counterparts makes it seem like chapters are defecting left and right just to keep the traitor numbers up. Off course almost every army suffers from OTT marines butchering their most elite without breaking a sweat, but these guys are supposed to be their evil on par counterpart.

For the models I have to give it to CSM, the different kits with the 6th edition make regular marines look silly with their spiky bits (especially the helmets). Also the addition of dinobots, I bought a Heldrake just for the punch in my fluffy list, but I just cant bear to play it anymore.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I can understand if someone dislikes the Orks, but by no means are they out of place in the setting.

If Tau are "out of place" then Orks definitely are. I mean seriously, the 40k universe is too dark, too gothic, too "serious" for an "anime" race like Tau, but not a joke race like Orks? And they are a joke, they are straight-up comic relief: have been since they were introduced and have remained as such through 40k's life span despite any attempts by GW or others to try and change that (which I'm not convinced ever happened, they've always been goofy and stupid and I don't recall GW making any real attempt to dial that back). You simply can't make Orks scary, not with all the goofy gak they say and do in the fluff, games, etc. (they became memes for a reason), and definitely not when their biggest and most "intimidating" models are walking dick jokes. This tongue-in-cheek humor might have fit in okay in Rogue Trader, but it doesn't work in 40k.

GW has this all set up as if you're supposed to take it all deathly serious: it's the 11th hour and hell and damnation are all that await you. There's no hope left, no salvation, only death and despair. Your god is a corpse and all your prayers fall on deaf ears. When you inevitably die, slowly, horribly, painfully, there are alien gods and daemons both chomping at the bit to claim your pathetic soul for their own. You are a pawn: insignificant, worthless, a play thing for beings you can't even comprehend, and no one's going to miss you.

And then there's the Orks. "OI! Boyz! Stop muckin' about and start krumpin' some 'umies, you zoggin' GITS!", "Right, boss! 'ere we go! WAAAGH!"...and then a bunch of WHF Orcs with guns run across the battlefield with a giant dick robot waddling behind them firing dick bombs at people, flanked by giant walking trashcans and other army's models with random garbage glued to them.

But I can't play my Tau, because they don't "fit in". They're not "dark enough". Feth that.

Tau fit in just fine, especially with all the subtle changes GW have made to their fluff over the years: they have been making them darker, just not in the way that most people would apparently notice, with blood, skulls, and spikes glued to the models. Maybe the models look "out of place" but I think we've already established that doesn't matter, since Orks also look out of place and people like them fine. Eldar especially look out of place, more than Tau even, but just like Orks they were in Rogue Trader and so they've been grandfathered in, even though they don't "deserve" it in my opinoin because from the start they were both just very lazy port-overs from WHF. At least Tau are a little more "original" than that...I say that knowing full well that GW shamelessly copied everything about them from other sources, but in the sense that they aren't just "(Insert Fantasy Race Here) in Spaaace!"? Yeah. And speaking of Eldar, literally the only leg people have to stand on there, other than "You can't get rid of Eldar because they were in RT!", is that they're a "dying race"...really? That's it? I've heard literally nothing else, just "Eldar fit because dying race!" Okay, all I have to say to that is "So what?" Technically most races in 40k are "dying" races, even the fledgling Tau, since as I said before "It's the 11th hour, doom, despair, blah blah blah". They're as fethed as everyone else, they just don't know it yet. So if that's all it takes to fit in then I'll say it again, Tau fit in just fine. So do anthropomorphic space rats and highly intelligent space orangutan artificers. So do Space Dwarves (Come on, every single other "WHF but in Spaaace!" army fits in but Dwarves? People are awful god damn picky about their ideal 40k universes aren't they?)

As for Newcrons...wow, now that's hilarious. I remember when people used to bitch about the old Necrons, even though the fluff fit into 40k perfectly: it was very Lovecraftian, but with robots. How can you go wrong? Well, people didn't like that they were soulless robots with no personality, they apparently wanted characters to lead their armies, characters they could write stories about and give names to. The C'tan annoyed people because the threat they presented rivaled, or maybe even exceeded, the one presented by the Dark Gods themselves...that and people just didn't want to see literal gods on the gaming table (which I can understand, much like how I don't want to see primarchs or titans). Even the models weren't terribly interesting to look at, the old Necron codex was very bare and didn't have much in the way of choice...very few units, no vehicles besides the monolith...every army looked and played almost exactly the same. There was also an argument if I recall that the Necrons were "redundant" because they were basically just like Tyranids but with robots instead (But the 12 different Space Marine armies? Nope, not redundant!). So what did GW do? Very rare for them, but they listened to all the complaints and with the new codex they fixed all of that: the C'tan as you knew them are gone, made practically inconsequential now as they were overthrown by their former slaves. They not only got personality but a large handful of new characters with rich backstories, and some thematic rules to go with them, like the ability to summon a lightning storm during a game. The army's look also changed dramatically, with a revamping of the miniature line rivaling the one that the Dark Eldar saw not long before them: not only did they get a lot of new units, but they got a gak ton of vehicles! Flyers, transports, jetbikes, floating barges that act as either heavy artillery or chariots for a lord to go to battle in, even a giant walker, which in my opinion isn't really a bad-looking model. This once boring, soulless army now looks completely different, has a lot of different builds available to it (some that were actually competitive, the first time in a long time for Necron players and literally one of, if not the only xeno armies during 5th edition that actually stood a chance against the unstoppable IoM armies), lots of things to experiment with, lots more potential for fluff writers and story-tellers...the only downside is that they did basically just turn them into "WHF Tomb Kings in Spaaace!", but this is what everyone wanted, right?

lol, nope! People hate them more now. People want things to go back to how they were, when Necrons were just emotionless robots with no personality, no characters, no flyer or barge spam, etc.

Honestly, with all that in mind, it's no wonder GW is ignoring the fanbase when it comes to Tau, and is choosing to play it a little more safe with them instead of making dramatic changes. Be honest, would it really make a difference? Would you really accept Tau any more than you do now, or would you still hate them? Would you actually buy any of the models to support GW if they did listen to you or would you keep adding to your Space Marines? You don't want change, you just want Tau gone, and I'm sorry to say but that clearly isn't going to happen. It's been TWELVE YEARS since Tau were introduced, they are well and truly a part of the game now, and as long as GW still has two brain cells left they won't ever get rid of them. It's my understanding that Tau have always been decent sellers, despite the plethora of hate and Tau-bashing threads I've seen during my time in this hobby, so much so that they got their first update way earlier than what was typical for a xeno army, lots of FW love when other races that "fit in" better haven't seen much at all, and apparently the demand for Tau was so high earlier this year that stores couldn't keep them in stock for weeks. $85 riptides, an absurd new price point that we hadn't seen before for 40k models, were flying off shelves despite that, followed by YouTube reviews or painting tutorials going on about how amazing the kit was (it really isn't but that's just my opinion I guess). I've heard countless times that "GW is a business and they exist to make money!", and if that's the case then it sounds like if GW wants to stay in business they had best keep on like they have been: ignoring each and everyone of you that doesn't want Tau in "their" 40k and, if anything, making Tau even more prominent than they are. They should be making Tau BB with everyone ,and release more Tau formations, so every army in the game can field 4 riptides and lots of missile-spamming broadsides and they can sell lots and lots of $85 kits and $300 box sets to people.

If you haven't learned to accept the Greater Good yet, then by god you will.

Anyway, I doubt anyone is actually going to read all this gak. I tried several drafts and I simply can't seem to avoid posting a giant text wall so whatever, here you go. For what it's worth, this is usually why I try to avoid stupid, pointless threads like this one. It's just a waste of time trying to engage with these kinds of people.

I should also add, that despite all of that, I still wouldn't get rid of Orks, Eldar, or any other race in the game regardless of whether or not it tickles my personal fancy. Every faction out there is someone's favorite, and as others have said before me, the game needs more variety, not less.

I read all of it.

I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.

I've never had a problem with Tau. I think the complaints are by and large fething stupid.

In terms of the Newcrons, I don't necessarily want it to be entirely reversed to the oldcrons. The Newcron codex has some good ideas, but also a lot of bad ones, and even the good ones should have been handled with moderation (Want more pronounced personalities? Make them cartoon characters! Yay!). I also can not get behind their current look. It's fething garish and honestly kind of an eyesore IMHO.

Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.

Wow, that's downright reasonable. I don't even know how to react! I was expecting more rage. I imagine that's yet to come, or I'll just be ignored, either one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.

That is exactly how I feel but I just didn't have the balls to say it. Or the wits to state it as clearly as you did without throwing half a dozen "feths" in there. But yeah, considering what an investment 40k is, in both time and money, I'm honestly appalled that anyone out there who has put similar amounts of time and effort into their armies can seriously think that way, and would be totally cool with entire factions just disappearing. I hate Space Marines but I would never want them to be written out of the game entirely...and even though it may not seem like it, I do think what GW did with BT was kinda lame. In my opinion they never should have split them off into their own codex if they weren't prepared to keep it supported, and I'm disappointed that they just rolled them back into the SM book. I still think they're better off in the SM book than they would be on their own, though: better rules, regular updates, etc. (how often do you see DA, BA, etc. players complain because "C:SM can do this, why can't I?!"), but I can understand why BT players are annoyed by the change and kinda wish GW didn't do that. And with Squats I guess it goes without saying, but that was a fethed up thing for GW to do, especially since they basically flat-out lied to people. And for their sake I hope they never do that again, because there's no point in getting into 40k anymore as any other faction but Space Marines if GW is perfectly willing to just drop your army at any point for any reason.

I should also say I'm just as annoyed by the new Tau codex as anyone else. I've always wanted to play a more "aggressive", mobile army that focuses more on mid-range firepower, or as Farsight puts it "shortening your reach"...I don't like the new codex because it promotes a style of play I'm not fond of. I don't want to be pigeon-holed into playing gunlines/castling up, and/or spamming riptides, it's not fun to play and it's apparently not fun for anyone to play against, either. I also think the riptide is an ugly model, so...

Also, I kind of agree with you on Necrons. I think you have a point as far as moderation goes, and as for the models I'm not too fond of some of the Egyptian-style headdresses they gave them. The barge is kind of "meh", I wasn't fond of the exposed pilots with their legs dangling like that, looks ridiculous. Other than that I don't think they're that bad, could have been better maybe but I think "eyesore" is probably harsh.

Anyway, as for my "lamest faction"...I wouldn't want to see any of them written out, like I said, and it's all just my personal opinion, but I think the current state of Chaos is just fething sad. My brother really likes Chaos and it sucks to watch him try and be enthusiastic about his army, but having to constantly struggle with gakky rules and ugly models. I don't get it, there are some cool pieces of art with Chaos Marines and daemons in them, models based on that art would look awesome, but the models GW have delivered are just awful. Even the chosen from DV, as cool as they are, suffer from being overly busy and maybe even confusing to look at because there's so much going on. I don't know why it's so hard to translate these cool ideas into cool miniatures, and why GW is so bad at it, but I really wish they would do better. A little less cartoony wouldn't kill them. And better rules wouldn't be a bad idea, either...not fond of Codex: Heldrake and Cultists, nor is anyone else.

Read it all, I agree with most of it, except the part where I buy 4 riptides.

 SisterSydney wrote:
You have a point there. My best take on the IG (whom I love) is "the Guard are the ordinary humans in a setting of superhumans who get stomped and stomped and keep on coming. Sometimes this means they steamroller the superhumans. Sometimes, not so much. But you've got to admire the cojones they have to even try."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Or the Sisters, who are, in their basis, a gimmick made into a faction.

As a huge fan of the Sisters, I gotta say you have a point. I think the Sisters have transcended this origin, but the way GW handles the Sisters has had Unfortunate Implications from the start.

As I recall, they first showed up in a single sentence in Rogue Trader -- before the Ecclesiarchy had been invented -- as a kind of genetic purity police, swooping down on people with no notice, testing their DNA, and arbitrarily executing them/dragging them away. So there's your "girls are scary," "girls are tattletales/scolds," and "any powerful woman must be an emasculating bitch" stereotypes right there.

Then they become "the girl army": hello, Smurfette Principle! In fact it's even central to their origin story, with the their very existence being to exploit a loophole in "no men under arms" wording of the Decree Passive demilitarizing the church. And they do this without losing the girls are scary/emasculating stuff. They even add a militarized Madonna/Whore Complex: most of them are virginal warrior-nuns, fully clad (albeit in sexualized armor), but those who "fall" are literally stripped nearly naked. BUT now the Sisters can actually fight -- and fight pretty darn well -- instead of just arrest helpless victims, they have powers derived from sheer force of pious will (whether it's "magic" or not is very much left open), and the Joan of Arc imagery bursts into full fleur-de-lis flower. And by now, they've arguably evolved into the best of humanity (at least in 40K military terms): the paradigm of what ordinary, genetically unmodified, non-cyborg humans can become with the best possible training, indoctrination, and equipment.

GW's still struggling with how to handle them, and it sure as hell needs to give them more units, but the Sisters have gone beyond a gimmick now.

I'm fine with the Sisters, I just wish they weren't so damn sexualized. Boobplate that would make WOW blush, or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC. They're a great concept that also doesn't fall victim to the annoying weak female trope, to the point that there's Sisters beyond normal Astartes or those that could beat up a mook marine just from skill. But for 's sake, ditch the boobplate, ditch the heels. Just make them look more like this.



Only a little bit more feminine with maybe a smaller bulk. But not only would it be friendly for STC's for their armor to be similar to Astartes', there's just no reason for their ridiculously sexualized armor besides simply trying to milk fans for cash via fanservice. Space Marine armor is massive. There's no reason why Sister's couldn't wear a smaller series nearly identical save some couple differences (while keeping their standard helmets) with the chest carved out for their strangely universally large chests. But there's no reason for it to be visible besides GW being able to point and scream' HEY LOOK, BOOBS, YOU LIKE BOOBS? HERE'S BOOBS!'

(Which as a male, it feels offensive for such marketing principles to pretty much whore out in an attempt to grab my money. My comic books are sexualized, my movies are sexualized, my games are sexualized, could my miniatures please just not be sexualized so there is at least SOMETHING?)

I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.

Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.

This. I still cant understand people with "not taking orks seriously". Oh, they are funny. Those machines, the language, that simplicity...
...and that simplicity when they bite off heads of you, your wife and your children, because who cares about some rules? Who cares about luring to chaos? Dont need those, bite those, waaagh. They are bigger than human, its like living nightmare that looks funny...and it still doesnt stop it from slaughtering your planet

I will have to say Tau. GM wanted to have their version of a popular(basically anime based) mech civilization. Unfortunately the models and the artwork for the Tau are blocky and their back story is a painful spinoff of the honor based culture of the Japanese. That is my opinion as someone who has lived in that country for nine years of my short life. Tho I am in fact a Irish American with a background in history and anthropology. The Tao are almost desperate, unnecessary and destined for a minimal cult following (especially in lore). They lack a appeal for most countries in general which is why the Tau fiction is barely supported in the story and they have a almost sad chance of ever captivating the audience enough to be a Tau only player in the real life game.

I'd say Tau, because they are a silly as the other factions, they just don't really fit the setting all that much.

Wyzilla wrote:
I'm fine with the Sisters, I just wish they weren't so damn sexualized. Boobplate that would make WOW blush, or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC. They're a great concept that also doesn't fall victim to the annoying weak female trope, to the point that there's Sisters beyond normal Astartes or those that could beat up a mook marine just from skill. But for 's sake, ditch the boobplate, ditch the heels. Just make them look more like this.

Yes, this. Just the ability to kick ass is sexy enough.

Wyzilla wrote:

That's a great image. What is it, actually? I see the URL is "Chaos Space Marines conversion."

Bobthehero wrote:I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.....Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.

The other elite Schola Progenium graduates are pretty impressive, true -- not just Stormtroopers and Commissars but also the Ministorum Priests, at least as they're depicted on the tabletop. What makes Sororitas unique is (1) power armor, which is just a matter of better access to equipment, and (2) Acts of Faith, which -- whether miraculous or not -- are the product of a fanatical dedication and indoctrination that no other unaugmented humans in the setting can match.


I'd also agree that none of the existing factions should be Squatted. I've found myself defending factions rather than attacking them this whole thread.... I love everybody! Except Grey Knights a la Matt Ward, but even they were pretty cool before.

Who here is arguing for anything to be squatted?

Some people have come close, but I don't anyone has said so outright, no.

I have to say that not only for 40K but especially after working with Tau on the scale of Epic 40K, I think they are a cool addition to the 40K universe. It's nice to see a race that isn't just a variation on a theme. Too many of the races just have racially different versions of the same stuff like superheavies and titans, where Tau just use efficiently deadly aircraft.

It just too bad that's not something that can make a difference in the 40K scale apart from the 1% of tables out there where a player can afford such enormous Forgeworld models. Imperial Guard with a Baneblade against Tau Riptides is about as close as you can get, and even those are pretty much just "alien Knights".

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I can understand if someone dislikes the Orks, but by no means are they out of place in the setting.

If Tau are "out of place" then Orks definitely are. I mean seriously, the 40k universe is too dark, too gothic, too "serious" for an "anime" race like Tau, but not a joke race like Orks? And they are a joke, they are straight-up comic relief: have been since they were introduced and have remained as such through 40k's life span despite any attempts by GW or others to try and change that (which I'm not convinced ever happened, they've always been goofy and stupid and I don't recall GW making any real attempt to dial that back). You simply can't make Orks scary, not with all the goofy gak they say and do in the fluff, games, etc. (they became memes for a reason), and definitely not when their biggest and most "intimidating" models are walking dick jokes. This tongue-in-cheek humor might have fit in okay in Rogue Trader, but it doesn't work in 40k.

GW has this all set up as if you're supposed to take it all deathly serious: it's the 11th hour and hell and damnation are all that await you. There's no hope left, no salvation, only death and despair. Your god is a corpse and all your prayers fall on deaf ears. When you inevitably die, slowly, horribly, painfully, there are alien gods and daemons both chomping at the bit to claim your pathetic soul for their own. You are a pawn: insignificant, worthless, a play thing for beings you can't even comprehend, and no one's going to miss you.

And then there's the Orks. "OI! Boyz! Stop muckin' about and start krumpin' some 'umies, you zoggin' GITS!", "Right, boss! 'ere we go! WAAAGH!"...and then a bunch of WHF Orcs with guns run across the battlefield with a giant dick robot waddling behind them firing dick bombs at people, flanked by giant walking trashcans and other army's models with random garbage glued to them.

But I can't play my Tau, because they don't "fit in". They're not "dark enough". Feth that.

Tau fit in just fine, especially with all the subtle changes GW have made to their fluff over the years: they have been making them darker, just not in the way that most people would apparently notice, with blood, skulls, and spikes glued to the models. Maybe the models look "out of place" but I think we've already established that doesn't matter, since Orks also look out of place and people like them fine. Eldar especially look out of place, more than Tau even, but just like Orks they were in Rogue Trader and so they've been grandfathered in, even though they don't "deserve" it in my opinoin because from the start they were both just very lazy port-overs from WHF. At least Tau are a little more "original" than that...I say that knowing full well that GW shamelessly copied everything about them from other sources, but in the sense that they aren't just "(Insert Fantasy Race Here) in Spaaace!"? Yeah. And speaking of Eldar, literally the only leg people have to stand on there, other than "You can't get rid of Eldar because they were in RT!", is that they're a "dying race"...really? That's it? I've heard literally nothing else, just "Eldar fit because dying race!" Okay, all I have to say to that is "So what?" Technically most races in 40k are "dying" races, even the fledgling Tau, since as I said before "It's the 11th hour, doom, despair, blah blah blah". They're as fethed as everyone else, they just don't know it yet. So if that's all it takes to fit in then I'll say it again, Tau fit in just fine. So do anthropomorphic space rats and highly intelligent space orangutan artificers. So do Space Dwarves (Come on, every single other "WHF but in Spaaace!" army fits in but Dwarves? People are awful god damn picky about their ideal 40k universes aren't they?)

As for Newcrons...wow, now that's hilarious. I remember when people used to bitch about the old Necrons, even though the fluff fit into 40k perfectly: it was very Lovecraftian, but with robots. How can you go wrong? Well, people didn't like that they were soulless robots with no personality, they apparently wanted characters to lead their armies, characters they could write stories about and give names to. The C'tan annoyed people because the threat they presented rivaled, or maybe even exceeded, the one presented by the Dark Gods themselves...that and people just didn't want to see literal gods on the gaming table (which I can understand, much like how I don't want to see primarchs or titans). Even the models weren't terribly interesting to look at, the old Necron codex was very bare and didn't have much in the way of choice...very few units, no vehicles besides the monolith...every army looked and played almost exactly the same. There was also an argument if I recall that the Necrons were "redundant" because they were basically just like Tyranids but with robots instead (But the 12 different Space Marine armies? Nope, not redundant!). So what did GW do? Very rare for them, but they listened to all the complaints and with the new codex they fixed all of that: the C'tan as you knew them are gone, made practically inconsequential now as they were overthrown by their former slaves. They not only got personality but a large handful of new characters with rich backstories, and some thematic rules to go with them, like the ability to summon a lightning storm during a game. The army's look also changed dramatically, with a revamping of the miniature line rivaling the one that the Dark Eldar saw not long before them: not only did they get a lot of new units, but they got a gak ton of vehicles! Flyers, transports, jetbikes, floating barges that act as either heavy artillery or chariots for a lord to go to battle in, even a giant walker, which in my opinion isn't really a bad-looking model. This once boring, soulless army now looks completely different, has a lot of different builds available to it (some that were actually competitive, the first time in a long time for Necron players and literally one of, if not the only xeno armies during 5th edition that actually stood a chance against the unstoppable IoM armies), lots of things to experiment with, lots more potential for fluff writers and story-tellers...the only downside is that they did basically just turn them into "WHF Tomb Kings in Spaaace!", but this is what everyone wanted, right?

lol, nope! People hate them more now. People want things to go back to how they were, when Necrons were just emotionless robots with no personality, no characters, no flyer or barge spam, etc.

Honestly, with all that in mind, it's no wonder GW is ignoring the fanbase when it comes to Tau, and is choosing to play it a little more safe with them instead of making dramatic changes. Be honest, would it really make a difference? Would you really accept Tau any more than you do now, or would you still hate them? Would you actually buy any of the models to support GW if they did listen to you or would you keep adding to your Space Marines? You don't want change, you just want Tau gone, and I'm sorry to say but that clearly isn't going to happen. It's been TWELVE YEARS since Tau were introduced, they are well and truly a part of the game now, and as long as GW still has two brain cells left they won't ever get rid of them. It's my understanding that Tau have always been decent sellers, despite the plethora of hate and Tau-bashing threads I've seen during my time in this hobby, so much so that they got their first update way earlier than what was typical for a xeno army, lots of FW love when other races that "fit in" better haven't seen much at all, and apparently the demand for Tau was so high earlier this year that stores couldn't keep them in stock for weeks. $85 riptides, an absurd new price point that we hadn't seen before for 40k models, were flying off shelves despite that, followed by YouTube reviews or painting tutorials going on about how amazing the kit was (it really isn't but that's just my opinion I guess). I've heard countless times that "GW is a business and they exist to make money!", and if that's the case then it sounds like if GW wants to stay in business they had best keep on like they have been: ignoring each and everyone of you that doesn't want Tau in "their" 40k and, if anything, making Tau even more prominent than they are. They should be making Tau BB with everyone ,and release more Tau formations, so every army in the game can field 4 riptides and lots of missile-spamming broadsides and they can sell lots and lots of $85 kits and $300 box sets to people.

If you haven't learned to accept the Greater Good yet, then by god you will.

Anyway, I doubt anyone is actually going to read all this gak. I tried several drafts and I simply can't seem to avoid posting a giant text wall so whatever, here you go. For what it's worth, this is usually why I try to avoid stupid, pointless threads like this one. It's just a waste of time trying to engage with these kinds of people.

I should also add, that despite all of that, I still wouldn't get rid of Orks, Eldar, or any other race in the game regardless of whether or not it tickles my personal fancy. Every faction out there is someone's favorite, and as others have said before me, the game needs more variety, not less.

I read it and agree entirely... As much as I dislike Tau, they fit in with the 40k universe MUCH better than 'space orcs'. I've always found it comical/embarrassing that orks are part of the game. Watch the look on someone's face who is just getting into the 40k universe and is attracted/drawn into the gothic grimdark of it all... Then plonk orks in front of them. It's that dreadful look of comprehending that they're now interested in something toddlers would want to play with.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Boobplate that would make WOW blush

The boobplate isn't so bad. I think of it as fitting in with the over-exagerrated aesthetic of the Sisters, myself.

Mind you, I wouldn't mourn the loss of boobplate. Either or.

 Wyzilla wrote:
or even worse how some of them have high heels built into their armor IIRC.

Nah, they don't. None on the models. In official art, it's only ever happened in one 2E Blanche artwork.

 Wyzilla wrote:
(Which as a male, it feels offensive for such marketing principles to pretty much whore out in an attempt to grab my money,

I'd say that the Sisters are pretty far ahead in this regard, overall. The boobplate is hardly as bad as the hordes of barely clothed female "soldier" minis out there.

Though, yes, the Repentia do sort of go against my point. Though they do have some pretty solid fluff to justify their appearance.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.

Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.

Eh, I'd say that they are the best, in terms of human soldiers. They're as well trained (if not better trained) than Stormtroopers, and better equipped. On top of that, they've got their Acts of Faith and the Shield of Faith. Aren't any other human troops that can do that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I read all of it.

I think the Orks would benefit a lot from having excerpts of fluff in their codex written from Imperial point of view, demonstrating that while from their point of view they are immensely silly and comical, from the POV of humanity they are anything but.

I've never had a problem with Tau. I think the complaints are by and large fething stupid.

In terms of the Newcrons, I don't necessarily want it to be entirely reversed to the oldcrons. The Newcron codex has some good ideas, but also a lot of bad ones, and even the good ones should have been handled with moderation (Want more pronounced personalities? Make them cartoon characters! Yay!). I also can not get behind their current look. It's fething garish and honestly kind of an eyesore IMHO.

Also, anyone who legitimately wants GW to just officially disown an army ala Squats because they don't like them is a morally repugnant pile of gak.

I agree with all of this, especially with the bolded part. Truth be said, I didn´t read all Sidstyler´s post, just skimmed it. But it sounded reasonable to me

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd argue that Sisters are not the ''best'' standard humans.

Merely one of, Stormtroopers are pretty high up there, and while they don't have PA, they have guns that make PA laughable. And Commissars are far from slouches, too.

All of them are Progena.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Schola_Progenium#.Ur8PL_TuIuc

People from the Schola Progenium are "the best standard humans". But then again we are not counting superior gear or faith.

They get a better armor, you could argue that the hellgun is better than a bolter, depending on what's in front of you, but generally, high ammo count+the possibility to punch through most armor is not something to scoff at.