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It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

Had a look at the Hobbit II yet? Legolas' old daddy somehow manages to be portrayed as the ultimate bastard though he's just one isolationist high elf ruler when it comes down to it. Aye... a hundred years really is a blink of the eyes to an old enough elf - but using that as the first method of interrogation with proud dwarves?

 McNinja wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

Your idea is dumb. You'd basically create an even worse version of the Salem Witch Hunts than the Imperium practices already. People ARE dumb in 40k, liberal educations such as the ones we enjoy are extremely limited, if not entirely unavailable. Faced with such information, there would be panics and riots and pogroms (that one kid was born with an extra finger! Demon! Let's burn the whole family in their home just in case!

People are dumber in real life.

"liberal education?" Sounds awful.

Yeah, a liberal education. One that teaches you a broad range of subjects beyond the core basics (remember that most people in the Imperium are illiterate, there is absolutely nothing that they need to read) and that covers subjects such as art, drama, music, etc.

Most people in 40K aren't stupid, per se, but they are very, very under-educated. Most people (99.99% of the Imperial populace) do not have access to a Schola Progenium. All the people on a Feral World are illiterate. No one on Krieg is educated in anything other than religious matters... reading is not a religious devotion. The teeming millions of people slaving away in mines and such probably don't read, either. There's no need for them to, the Overseers will tell them what they need to know.

 McNinja wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's possibly due to the flanderization that results from the Eldar not getting as many perspective stories and novels as the imperium, but they really do kinda come off as jerks overall. For the Imperium, a lot of the Imperium are jerks, a lot aren't, a lot are actual nice guys, etc, but for the Eldar, it just gets hard to sympathize with them these days when they're ALWAYS portrayed as jerk asses nowadays.

It wasn't that bad in the past (the Eldar that helped Tallam actually exchanged "Vows of friendship" with them, but these days, Eldars do such jerk-off things that it's just really hard to care about them. Admittingly I'm not sure how old some of the following fluff examples are, but we have things like Eldar helping the Crimson Fists eliminate some Orks, then when the Crimson Fist Commander proceeded to thank them, the Eldar told him "The next time we meet, we will be enemies." (seriously, even if your prognistication future-seeing abilities told you that you'd be enemies with them the next time you met, why would you inform and warn them of that fact?), an Ultramarines commander who stayed away from attacking the Eldar during the 13th Black Crusade only to be attacked by them first (I imagine they had a reason for it but it was never stated, and it's hard to imagine what bizarre reason it could be when Chaos is rampaging around everywhere. Though I believe it's stated they didn't initially realize their blackstone fortresses were going to be taken by Chaos, but that just makes them even more unsympathizable. Idiots.), and the Eldar just jumping onto Myneara and slapping the Imperium around before grabbing their artfact there and buggering off, leaving most of the Imperial forces wondering what the feth that was about (although for that last one, I do have to admit the Imperium probably wouldn't have coughed up the artifact if the Eldar asked nicely, I suppose)

Even in the Tallam incident, the Eldar started attacking the Tallamites first without telling them WHY whereas in that case if the Eldar had just simply told them that strange chunk of rock they unearthed was a big Chaos portal, I imagine they would have been happy to re-seal it. At least when dealing with Chaos, you don't ALWAYS have to be cryptic.

....unless fluff cases start sprouting up where Eldar start lying to the Imperium saying something is a chaos artifact in an attempt to manipulate them to do something. But then they'd become even more unsympathetic IMHO since "crying wolf" scenarios start sprouting up and that'd be the Eldar's fault for not treating Chaos more seriously.

Well, at least the Harlequins were stated to perform for other races to warn them to stay away from Slaanesh. I dunno if tha'ts been retconned yet or not, though.

......I'm pretty sure a lot of people at GW just have it out for the Eldar in general. Their constant losing and their jerkification over time makes it seem like people over there really hate them or something Maybe an overboard reaction to when they were initially too nice or something. Tau were handled better in that regards.

The cryptic nature of both the Eldar and the Inquisition when regarding Chaos is perhaps the reason they can't get a grip on it. Assuming that everyone else is as dumb as a rock and only you and a select few can do the job and handle the knowledge correctly is a surefire way to straight up kill any plan you have.

I mean, if you hadn't heard of Chaos before. You're living on a peaceful world, the planetary governor is a a huge tool (but aren't they all?), and your planet sends their tithes in every whenever. Then, all of a sudden you get to your Imperial School of the Emperor and Stuff, and you are told via video that Chaos is a great evil and will turn you into a gibbering mass of tentacles and claws and you will slaughter everyone you know and love if you succumb to Chaos. At first, you're like WTF? Then, when you realize the dude speaking is a legit Inquisitor, you sort of freak out and you run through every single person you know and try to figure out if they've started exhibiting the signs of being a new tool for Chaos. You get up, put some names on a tablet, and sit down. Later, those people are rounded up and interrogated. Some are executed, some lose their fudge and try to summon a bloodthirster on the spot, some kind of fall over and cry because having your mind scoured hurts a bunch.

Suddenly, you don't have to mind wipe everyone and their grandmother because they might have heard a story once from a dude who was friends with a guy who shot a daemon ten years ago. You now have a populace that knows the enemy and can seek it out (especially if there are rewards). Of course, there will be false positives, but its a far better solution than willfully diminishing your own species just to save your own species.

But wait there is more! Well what about the person that has an odd quirk, maybe some form of PTSD, etc etc etc. CHAOS! IT MUST BE CHAOS KILL THEM BURN THEM! Also keep in mind that chaos is dangerous in ways that many cannot comprehend. Heck, Nurgle made a plague that spread by way of making you doubt (Plague of Doubt yes quite the creative name).

 necrondog99 wrote:
"liberal education?" Sounds awful.

If you graduated from a United States high school or college, you had one.

A liberal education is described as "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterized by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study". The idea being that if you are uneducated, you can't be free ("liberal" taking cue from the latin root "liber", or "free", as in freedom; IE, liberty).

Whether or not it was successful in all of this is another question.