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Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 21:51:56


Post by: rigeld2


Naw wrote:
Why do I need to roll for hit with Smite? How do you know how to resolve PS with the roll having no effect, but then claim it works for Smite?

Because Smite has a profile, which includes a Type, which includes the number of dice to roll.
Which you'd know if you'd follow the arguments throughout the thread instead of trying to nit pick.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 21:53:18


Post by: Gravmyr


OK fair. I think we can all agree though at this point we are well beyond RAW. How would you deal with the need to roll to hit but not having the number of shots spelled out?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 21:57:55


Post by: Naw


Gravmyr wrote:
OK fair. I think we can all agree though at this point we are well beyond RAW. How would you deal with the need to roll to hit but not having the number of shots spelled out?


I'd follow the rule from shooting attacks and roll 1 die. We aren't told otherwise.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:08:03


Post by: FlingitNow


1. Why don't you roll to penetrate. What rule is allowing you to skip that step? Nothing in PS tells you to skip or replace that step. So again you see something unresolvable and are skipping the step. Why treat it differently for the to hit roll?

2. So when there is no value you are assuming 0 is the value. Why treat the PS to hit roll differently? Why not assume it does 0 shots as you are not told it does any?

3. Again you see no value so assume 0 rather than the 1 assumed for to hit? Why are you treating them inconsistently? Also you are aware that by page 9 your interpretation means the Chariot is removed as a casualty right?

Much like Mortetvie you just destroyed your own stance with those replies.

Once again you then make claims about my argument you know to be false.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:17:46


Post by: Gravmyr


Flingitnow: How are you getting the wounds from the wound pool onto the model?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:22:30


Post by: BlackTalos


 DeathReaper wrote:
#2 is not true at all. Unless you are advocating that

Haemorrhage
Purge Soul
Spontaneous Combustion
Crush

all do not work as written as they do not have a profile so we dont know how many dice to roll to hit, yet that all require a roll to hit through the Witchfire rules...


I agree with Shandara et Al. you simply roll 1 dice To Hit, (as that is a To Hit roll - required) comparing your Balistic Skill. Fail that, and the effect of the spell miss.

Haemorrhage
Purge Soul
Spontaneous Combustion
Crush

Will not affect the Tree next to your target


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:33:55


Post by: FlingitNow


Gravmyr wrote:
Flingitnow: How are you getting the wounds from the wound pool onto the model?


Cool I take a wound and apply it to the nearest model in the target unit. In this case the Chariot which has a wounds Characteristic so then I apply any saves that are available assuming they fail I reduce that by 1 see if that kills the model or not then go back to the wound pool. Wound pool rules are spelt out on pages 35-36 of the rulebook.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:35:36


Post by: Gravmyr


Why are you not using the rules that are more specific for chariots?

Edit: Also those are the rules for infantry if I am correct. How are you using them to inflict wounds on a vehicle?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:40:30


Post by: BlackTalos


rigeld2 wrote:
 BlackTalos wrote:
PS needs to roll 1 dice To Hit, as per page 27.

Quote the rule - my electronic page numbers don't help but I can't imagine what rule you're talking about.


And to HappyJew:
Apologies that pages no longer work, but P27:
Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless (...)Blast(...)Template
If it is not a Blast or a Template, it MUST roll To Hit.
p32: Paraphrased to "no Automatic Hit when rolling To Hit".

ALL witchfires can fail to hit.

p27 then moves on to say how Beam and Nova types "all units under the line are hit" and "hits all enemy units" which exempts them from this.

rigeld2 wrote:
However doing so would assume Molten Beam, and other Beams, would also "not roll To Hit". But they clearly have a "shooting profile".

Correct. And?

If you go by the assumption that Beams must roll to hit, then you're saying that you roll to hit the first unit, and then hit every unit under the line. Which makes no sense.


No i was under the impression that you roll To Hit before "tracing the line". Corrected by further reading above.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:51:40


Post by: FlingitNow


Gravmyr wrote:
Why are you not using the rules that are more specific for chariots?

Edit: Also those are the rules for infantry if I am correct. How are you using them to inflict wounds on a vehicle?


What rules for Chariots? There are no rules for wound pools specific to chariots. And those are the wound pool rules for all models. Generally Vehicles intercept the shooting rules before you get to a wound pool, at the roll to wound stage a stage that does not occur for PS.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:52:17


Post by: BlackTalos



The 6th Edition Rulebook was quite clear with the wording:
Witchfire powers are often reffered to as psychic shooting attacks. Manifesting witchfire [color=red]counts as firing an Assault weapon (unless otherwise noted). A witchfire power must roll To Hit,...[/color]

Which has now become:
Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. (...LoS...) . Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit,...

Just as Naw pointed out, and the intent is clear in the lines above:
the RaW "many have profiles" just points out that this is the method to resolve it, Assault 1 or not.



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 22:55:18


Post by: Gravmyr


The rules for chariots state there is a profile choice to be made. Since that was never made how are you as the firer choosing to put the wound on the rider's profile?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:04:55


Post by: FlingitNow


Where does it say that. Nothing about that in the Chariot rules in my book.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:07:05


Post by: JinxDragon


There is a Rule stating that any Characteristic Modifiers are to both Profiles.
Resolving Wounds requires us to reduce the Wound Characteristic, after seeing if the Model Saves against the Wound, which is clearly a Modifier.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:09:30


Post by: Gravmyr


The section you skipped via not doing a hit roll was where they are located. As the owner of the chariot gets to choose where the shooting attack it allocated to.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:12:49


Post by: FlingitNow


Gravmyr wrote:
The section you skipped via not doing a hit roll was where they are located. As the owner of the chariot gets to choose where the shooting attack it allocated to.


So back to deliberately posting falsehoods. As has been explained to you those rules ONLY allow you to allocate hits from a shooting attack and then explains how you resolve those HITS. The 3d6-ld wounds have nothing to do with hits so why on earth would that rule be relevant?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:13:54


Post by: Gravmyr


The fact that there is two profiles and as the owner get to choose where the attacks are allocated to.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:21:28


Post by: FlingitNow


Gravmyr wrote:
The fact that there is two profiles and as the owner get to choose where the attacks are allocated to.


No rules state this. Please refrain from using made up rules in your argument it doesn't help the discussion.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:45:26


Post by: Gravmyr


Holy robo zombies! I could have sworn that the hit section stated that the results were applied to the profile you chose... I can't argue with the wound application then. I have no idea where I got that from.

I stand by my belief that the RAI are to have a To Hit roll made with the misses to not be processed but that is a different discussion.

I have a few issues with this power otherwise but this is not the thread for that either.

I bow out sir.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/08 23:48:30


Post by: FlingitNow


Very gracious


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/09 03:17:40


Post by: Hollismason


Has anyone brought up the whole "Multiple Characteristics" issue? I can't seem to find it. If your wondering, I'm referring to the beginning of the rulebook where it specifically talks about models having multiple characteristics and your suppose to use the higher value.

I thought this already came up in a previous thread.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/09 04:11:08


Post by: rigeld2


Hollismason wrote:
Has anyone brought up the whole "Multiple Characteristics" issue? I can't seem to find it. If your wondering, I'm referring to the beginning of the rulebook where it specifically talks about models having multiple characteristics and your suppose to use the higher value.

I thought this already came up in a previous thread.

How does this apply here? Were you deliberately vague in your question or are we supposed to assume most beneficial, least harm?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/11 07:41:14


Post by: Shingen


Here's another one for you. Vects s10 blast rolls against leadership to wound.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/11 07:56:42


Post by: Eihnlazer


shingen thats not a problem.

We are given a clear str value and vehicles have no ldr.

The defending player allocates to either his warlord which will be wounded on a 4+ because he has ldr 10, or will be up againgst armor 13 and so will need a 3 to glance and a 4+ to pen.



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/11 08:03:29


Post by: FlingitNow


As Eihnlazer states you have a hit therefore the Chariot rules kick in and the Chariot player gets to assign to rider of vehicle. You then resolve as normal vs whichever target is selected.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/11 12:15:43


Post by: PapaSoul


 FlingitNow wrote:
As Eihnlazer states you have a hit therefore the Chariot rules kick in and the Chariot player gets to assign to rider of vehicle. You then resolve as normal vs whichever target is selected.


Exept there are no hits, only wounds. Can you allocate wounds to a vehicle? No? Then they go on the rider.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/11 15:29:12


Post by: FlingitNow


PapaSoul wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
As Eihnlazer states you have a hit therefore the Chariot rules kick in and the Chariot player gets to assign to rider of vehicle. You then resolve as normal vs whichever target is selected.


Exept there are no hits, only wounds. Can you allocate wounds to a vehicle? No? Then they go on the rider.



It is a blast weapon it generates hits in the usual way. You only use the Ld instead of rolling to wound if the hit is allocated to the chariot there is no roll to wound.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 16:51:32


Post by: lordwellingstone


The way we handle it here is that we treat Witchfires that don't have a profile as an assault 1 weapon (I know making up rules blah blah, all that). Therefore if it hits the chariot the chariot player can choose where to put the "hit". I know prehaps we're not playing RAW but, it's way more preferable than having an 11 page Talmudic discussion about the rules interpretations K.I.S.S.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 17:16:12


Post by: FlingitNow


Or you could just play by the rules? No rolls to hit and the unit is effected regardless of hits. If they assign the hit to the chariot do you resolve against the unit as per the Psychic Shriek rules or do you make up further rules and break the PS rules? If the roll to hit misses do you still resolve against the unit as per the Psychic Shriek rules or do you make up further rules and break the PS rules?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 18:01:25


Post by: lordwellingstone


Wow, you are being pretty aggro for no real good reason. That being said, if psychic shriek is assigned to the chariot, the chariot itself has no LD so it does nothing like it would to any other vehicle. If the shot misses then the power does nothing, regardless of target. So in essence most maledictions and effects like psychic shriek have limited (if any) effect on chariots. It works with no disagreement in my gaming group of 12ish (which is large or small depending on your perspective) people.

I'm not saying it's following the rules. But we're pretty keen on knowing when the rules are inadequate to cover the situation and have no problems filling in or modifying the rules to make the game the most enjoyable for all involved. We look at it like a good ol' fashioned PnP RPG, instead of a legal document. Where occasionally rules need to be adjusted to suit the group. This has led to minimal but positive changes to the rules for us. While I perfectly understand that we no longer fully inhabit the land of RAW(all the better for it), the 41st millennium somehow manages to be a fun place to be.

So slow your roll, it's okay that other people play differently than you.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 18:42:21


Post by: FlingitNow


That's cool but the attitude expressed in "it's way more preferable than having an 11 page Talmudic discussion about the rules interpretations K.I.S.S." implies that people playing by the clear intent and RaW are some how wrong.

In my group (probably around 30-40 people) we play it by the clear intent and that makes for a fun enjoyable game that is also easy for any new comer to join as we don't have to explain that we don't like the rules so have changed them. However your group chooses to play is up to you. If you all enjoy it then you're doing it right for your group. But to imply that anyone who either wants to know the RaW and RaI or plays by those is wrong for doing so is an attitude that is likely to create a response.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 19:10:58


Post by: lordwellingstone


That's the thing though, I'm not sure the intent is so clear, and I think the length for which this discussion has gone on is at least some kind of testament to that.

I never implied (or i guess intended to imply) that the way you play it is wrong. I was simply offering how my group handled the rules situation (and poking a bit of fun at the length of this thread). The Keep It Simple Stupid method works really well when trying to figure out where the rules meet reality. We tend to edge the game towards making more real-world sense. i.e. it seems to us that the chariot is often simply too fast for a rider that takes up such a small portion of a vehicle to be hit by the mind-bullet-ray that is psychic scream, of course there's all kinds of real-ish scenarios one could dream up that imply the inverse, however this explanation works for us. Rather than following the strict RAW. I'm not super worried about alienating newcomers, I live in a small town so generally when someone new joins up it happens infrequently enough that they usually have no problem adopting house rules and typically the game makes more sense.

Rules discussions in our group tend to be really short and often are quickly resolved after we ask the question "what would happen?"

Neither of us are "wrong" at least until GW secret police break into our basements and confiscate our models for not playing the game right.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 20:56:05


Post by: Naw


Or you could just play by the rules?


Good plan, but then why..

No rolls to hit and the unit is effected regardless of hits.


... do you ignore Witchfire rules?

Let's just kill this thread and wait for FAQ?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/12 21:46:27


Post by: FlingitNow


Have you read the thread? The to hit roll is impossible to resolve and in that situation as everyone does in similar situations you say nothing happens. Or if you prefer you are told to make a to hit roll to not given permission to use any dice for that roll. Hence you roll zero dice generate zero hits and resolve the 3d6-ld effect on the target as the rules tell you to.

This does not need an FAQ and is not unclear people just want it to be. I've never come across anyone that thought Enfeeble on a vehicle caused a problem and that you needed to invent a S&T for you to resolve the -1 against. Or that we need to invent an Ld or wounds for the Chariot to resolve the 3d6-ld and resultant wounds at best someone has claimed you count them as zero (which of course insta kills the chariot). This is not unclear. RaW and intent are very obvious if you read all the rules and don't make assumptions about how you want it to work first.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 04:32:08


Post by: Naw


 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you read the thread? The to hit roll is impossible to resolve and in that situation as everyone does in similar situations you say nothing happens.


Yes, I have. And no, it is not impossible. This also has been pointed out so many times that I'm not going to anymore.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 08:39:46


Post by: FlingitNow


Not with any rules support it hasn't. How do you think it works then Naw? It obviously can't be the same self defeating argument Gravmyr or Mortetvie used.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 09:29:16


Post by: Naw


I am quite positive that there is more rules support for throwing a single d6 than none at all:

- every shooting attack defaults at 1 unless otherwise specified
- the requirement for a witchfire to roll to hit
- besides PS there are other similarly behaving (no profile given) witchfire powers

What is your rule based excuse for not rolling dice at all? "It is not needed" is a bad excuse for ignoring a rule to roll.

How about spending time to figure out how many to throw?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 09:54:08


Post by: FlingitNow


Naw wrote:
I am quite positive that there is more rules support for throwing a single d6 than none at all:

1. every shooting attack defaults at 1 unless otherwise specified
2. the requirement for a witchfire to roll to hit
3. besides PS there are other similarly behaving (no profile given) witchfire powers

What is your rule based excuse for not rolling dice at all? "It is not needed" is a bad excuse for ignoring a rule to roll.

How about spending time to figure out how many to throw?


I've added numbers for ease of reference.

1. As you know this statement not true. Please don't put intentional falsehoods in your argument it doesn't help anything.
2. Which is fulfilled by rolling the 0 dice to hit that PS tells you to roll. Or roll a random number of dice and ignore the result if you wish.
3. Which of course work like PS look at most focussed Witchfires if you exceed the casting value you pick who the power is resolved against. I can even begin to imagine how you think this works with a roll to hit?

I also see no way to resolve including a roll to hit. Which I assume means you know there is no way for that to work as you refuse to state the process you take. I've shown my process and it has been proven categorically correct RaW. Yoy can't even state yours as you know it has no basis in the rules.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 13:18:41


Post by: Gravmyr


Thank you for the invite back in. I would like to point out that no one should be claiming that someone is intentionally lying as that is the same as calling them a liar which is directly forbidden by the tenets of Dakka/YMTC.

This is also off topic and there should be another thread about witchfires and the need to roll. Pretty sure a link to it was posted already.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 14:34:27


Post by: Gray1378


This is too easy guys. There is no to hit roll therefore there is no way to change where the wounds are allocated. This is strictly to the rider and not the chariot itself.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 15:36:23


Post by: Hollismason


Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 15:42:42


Post by: Fragile


Eihnlazer wrote:
shingen thats not a problem.

We are given a clear str value and vehicles have no ldr.

The defending player allocates to either his warlord which will be wounded on a 4+ because he has ldr 10, or will be up againgst armor 13 and so will need a 3 to glance and a 4+ to pen.



Hits from blast weapons are resolved against the Chariot. Since the Chariot does not have a LD value, Vect's blast does nothing.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 16:20:21


Post by: FlingitNow


Hollismason wrote:
Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.


So there's several things wrong with this. You assume the range is 1 to infinity with no rules support particularly as the value zero for shots is the only number with actual rules support.

You assume it can't cause more than 1 hit again with no support. Just because the effect only ever occurs once has no baring on hits as the effect and hits have literally no connection.

You say we know when it does hit the effect occurs, we also know when it doesn't hit the effect occurs. Which basically destroys your line of thought.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 16:43:34


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
Hollismason wrote:
Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.


So there's several things wrong with this. You assume the range is 1 to infinity with no rules support particularly as the value zero for shots is the only number with actual rules support.

You assume it can't cause more than 1 hit again with no support. Just because the effect only ever occurs once has no baring on hits as the effect and hits have literally no connection.

You say we know when it does hit the effect occurs, we also know when it doesn't hit the effect occurs. Which basically destroys your line of thought.


You are literally not figuratively arguing with math and logic.

1. It must have a minimum rate of 1 as that is the least number a shot can have , it cannot be Zero as a ROF of zero would not be a valid number as then it would be unable to fire. This is literally basic level logic. It's also not a valid number as Zero is actually not a positive real number. That's why it's Zero.
2. We do not know it's range , it can be expressed as (–∞, 0) U (0, ∞) , which is all real numbers except Zero
3. We know that it cannot be a negative number as the rules do not support negative ROF.
4. If all positive real numbers are valid choices, then we can express it's ROF as (0, +∞)
5. It's affect applies when it hits, as there is no rule support stating "For each hit, resolve" instead. It is in the rule itself of how to resolve the psychic power, that regardless of the numbers of hits you resolve the Psychic Power. I don't need rule support whatsoever or some weird "show your work" as it is stated clearly what happens when the power hits and there is no way to infer multiple hits to give indication or a rule that states otherwise that multiple hits cause the power to resolve multiple times. In fact you yourself would need to "show your work".
6. Since it's ROF is (0, +∞) , then any real number in that selection is valid.
7. This would mean all numbers are valid , so you can either state it hits automatically as statistically if I want to roll 100,000 dice it will succeed regardless of what the Ballistic Skill of the unit is. The rules themselves do not though state it hits automatically we should make the reasonable assumption then that if it does not in fact hit automatically that statistically it needs a way to "fail" but just stating it hits automatically is also valid.
8. The only real valid reasonable solution is to set it's ROF at 1 which would be decided by you and your opponent. The reason it is the only viable choice is that while it is not stated what it's ROF is it's only definitive number is 1 as that is the start of the range. (0, +∞). It cannot be 0 as Zero literally means nothing. It's not a number positive or negative and the power must have a rate of fire or a number of dice to roll in order to hit. We know this because it does not state it hits automatically.

Please keep arguing with me though about math and rudimentary logic.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 17:13:45


Post by: FlingitNow


I'm not arguing against the maths. One of us has a degree in maths the other thinks that this is a solvable problem:

The number of apples a man has depends on his age.
Bod is 20 how many apples does he have?

1. Not actually true it could be a ranged weapon with zero rate of fire. Just saying it must be 1 doesn't make it true. How many shots are we permitted to take with it?

2. Again using a false premise repeating it doesn't make it more true.

3. Wow something correct.

4. All non-negative integers are valid. Not real numbers unless you'd like to tell me how to resolve pi shots?

5. This again why mention that the effect occurs if you hit? The effect also occurs if you don't hit. That is your issue you're tying the number of hits to the effect there is no relationship between the two.

6. Again no I can't resolve 0.1356742 hits.

7. Rolling 100,000 dice does not mean you hit automatically just means you're unlikely to ever miss.

8. No 1 is an assumption unsupported by any rules, zero is yhr number of shots the rules give you permission to take. Even if we do roll 1 dice then what? The effect resolves against the unit regardless of the result of that dice roll so why bother rolling it? Rolling it just then gives you a hit which you then have to resolve forcing you to create other houserules.

The problem with arguing basic logic and maths with someone that understands neither is that when you repeatedly show the flaw in their argument they don't understand and keep repeating the argument for what 12 pages now?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 17:17:52


Post by: DeathReaper


2. PS actually has a range listed in the power itself.

5. has no basis in the rules. Psychic Shriek's effect applies when you successfully manifest the power, hit or miss, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry. (Because of this your roll 1 dice argument falls apart).


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 17:18:36


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not arguing against the maths. One of us has a degree in maths the other thinks that this is a solvable problem:

The number of apples a man has depends on his age.
Bod is 20 how many apples does he have?

1. Not actually true it could be a ranged weapon with zero rate of fire. Just saying it must be 1 doesn't make it true. How many shots are we permitted to take with it?

2. Again using a false premise repeating it doesn't make it more true.

3. Wow something correct.

4. All non-negative integers are valid. Not real numbers unless you'd like to tell me how to resolve pi shots?

5. This again why mention that the effect occurs if you hit? The effect also occurs if you don't hit. That is your issue you're tying the number of hits to the effect there is no relationship between the two.

6. Again no I can't resolve 0.1356742 hits.

7. Rolling 100,000 dice does not mean you hit automatically just means you're unlikely to ever miss.

8. No 1 is an assumption unsupported by any rules, zero is yhr number of shots the rules give you permission to take. Even if we do roll 1 dice then what? The effect resolves against the unit regardless of the result of that dice roll so why bother rolling it? Rolling it just then gives you a hit which you then have to resolve forcing you to create other houserules.

The problem with arguing basic logic and maths with someone that understands neither is that when you repeatedly show the flaw in their argument they don't understand and keep repeating the argument for what 12 pages now?


Please show me how to roll zero dice to hit, thanks. Also please show me how to roll Negative dice to hit. Zero is not a valid number for it's range. Please show me one weapon in the entire game that has a zero rate of fire. Thanks. If you have a degree in math then you'll know that it has to have a range of real numbers that are positive as we cannot choose to roll zero dice to hit and we cannot choose to roll - dice.

It's only valid number choices are all positive real numbers.

As for the other points, I don't even want to calculate the real number of a percentage chance to hit with 100,000 dice.

I mean both answers are valid answers, you can state it hits automatically or you can state the beginning of the range but don't argue with me that this thing has a zero ROF or a Negative Rate of fire.


 DeathReaper wrote:
2. PS actually has a range listed in the power itself.

5. has no basis in the rules. Psychic Shriek's effect applies when you successfully manifest the power, hit or miss, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry. (Because of this your roll 1 dice argument falls apart).


O_o on the first one, you realize we are arguing about a range of numbers , right?

If you miss with a shooting attack what happens?





Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 17:57:15


Post by: FlingitNow


Rolling zero dice to hit is physically the same as not tolling to hit. The argument that no weapon has zero shots means that PS can't is entirely illogical as usual your inability to understand basic logic causes problems.

You keep saying all positive real numbers are possible. So show me how to roll 0.12466 dice. Please.

It appears the only answer supported by the rules is a zero rate of fire. Just because you don't want it to be zero has no bearing.

A shooting attack that does not hit has no permission to make a to wound or armour penetration roll. The PS effect is neither an only requires you to target then successfully manifest the power.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 18:09:56


Post by: DeathReaper


Hollismason wrote:

O_o on the first one, you realize we are arguing about a range of numbers , right?

If you miss with a shooting attack what happens?


Right, I read #2 solo out of context, please ignore my 2 in my previous post.

If you miss with a shooting attack you do not get to roll To Wound.

Fortunately PS does not have a To Wound roll, so I am not sure what you are getting at here.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 18:14:47


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
Rolling zero dice to hit is physically the same as not tolling to hit. The argument that no weapon has zero shots means that PS can't is entirely illogical as usual your inability to understand basic logic causes problems.

You keep saying all positive real numbers are possible. So show me how to roll 0.12466 dice. Please.

It appears the only answer supported by the rules is a zero rate of fire. Just because you don't want it to be zero has no bearing.A shooting attack that does not hit has no permission to make a to wound or armour penetration roll. The PS effect is neither an only requires you to target then successfully manifest the power.



That's easy , there are no fractions in 40k , it's clearly stated.

Here's not quiet the same example but pretty easy to tell that fractions are always rounded up.

Actually rolling Zero, and not having to roll are completely two different things. One is a exemption, one is a impossibility as you can not determine a result from a zero dice roll. That's a false analogy.


Here's not quiet the same example but pretty easy to tell that fractions are always rounded up.

Dividing to Conquer
On occasion, you’ll be called upon to divide the result of a dice roll, a characteristic or some other value. Where this happens, any fractions should always be rounded up. So a D6 roll of 3, halved, would be a result of 2 (1.5 rounded up). Similarly, 10% of a unit of twenty-one models, rounded up, would be 3 models.


Warhammer 40k only uses whole numbers , that's just a strawman argument to say you can pick a fraction when the game doesn't allow it in any circumstance at all anywhere in the rules. Stop using a strawman argument and false analogies.

It has to have a rate of fire that is above zero as there is no way to actually resolve Zero Dice or Negative Dice or Fractionally dice ( which are actually rounded up).


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 18:47:28


Post by: FlingitNow


You're the one using real numbers and those rules talk about dice results not numbers of dice rolled. Do you even know what the set of real numbers is?

Rolling zero dice is synonymous with not rolling any dice and therefore not rolling at all.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 19:11:33


Post by: Dracos


Which is against the rules

@ Hollismason: QED...


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 19:23:41


Post by: FlingitNow


But also following the rules.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 19:57:34


Post by: Hollismason


Please point me to one single piece of wargear or any other weapon that does not roll dice to hit that is not a beam weapon and even that still "hits" it's target as it's automatic. Something is either automatic, triggers, or rolls to hit.

There's no weapon in the game or any other notation for 0 rate of fire. Even a beam weapon fires once.

You have no rule basis, or any example that you can in fact roll zero dice for something . It's also a terrible analogy.



Its a strawman argument to say I can declare a fraction as one of my real numbers, want me to go back and do set whole number intervals for it because I can. It's a bs strawman argument that's ignoring basic fundamentals of logic , reasoning and math.

We know we have to pick a whole number

It's not the same at all. It's a false analogy by the way and no synomous as one is a aversion of not doing something and one is doing something with no result.

I roll zero dice and not rolling are not the same at all. It's just bad logic.

If I I roll zero dice , I've committed an action that has no result

If I've not rolled any dice I've averted an action and it cannot have a result because it's been averted.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 22:28:47


Post by: FlingitNow


Haemmorage, Combustion etc

So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

You keep using the term strawman, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fractions are part of the set of real numbers. So are irrational numbers. The point being made that you've missed is that you don't understand the maths you're trying to use. Hence the inaccuracies.

Ok so there's no result from rolling zero dice to hit. Why do you need a result? Not having a result allows you to continue resolving the power without creating house rules. Having a result in a number of hits forces you to create houserules to resolve those hits.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 23:04:04


Post by: extremefreak17


Really, either way you cut it, house rules come into play. Having an argument over who's house rule is better is not really relevant here. Recomending we close this thread as it now reads the same as every other Psychic Shriek thread.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/13 23:26:50


Post by: FlingitNow


 extremefreak17 wrote:
Really, either way you cut it, house rules come into play. Having an argument over who's house rule is better is not really relevant here. Recomending we close this thread as it now reads the same as every other Psychic Shriek thread.


Do you believe it takes a houserule to resolve the -1 S&T of enfeeble against a Rhino?

Do you believe it takes a houserule to resolve the 3d6-ld wounds against the Chariot Vehicle profile?

How about resolving Haemorrhage against a Rhino?

If not how do you resolve each of those?



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 03:23:30


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
Haemmorage, Combustion etc

So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

You keep using the term strawman, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fractions are part of the set of real numbers. So are irrational numbers. The point being made that you've missed is that you don't understand the maths you're trying to use. Hence the inaccuracies.

Ok so there's no result from rolling zero dice to hit. Why do you need a result? Not having a result allows you to continue resolving the power without creating house rules. Having a result in a number of hits forces you to create houserules to resolve those hits.


I think you maybe need to learn what a false analogy is and what deductive reasoning is that you seem to not be able to understand the basic concept of what I laid out.

For someone with a math degree you seem to have hard problem with the latter as we know specifically you cannot pick a negative number , nor can you pick a fraction as there are no way to resolve that, there is no way to resolve something that has a 0 rate of fire. We know the range of what it should be and our logic tells us that it cannot be X, Y, Z, so A is the only possible answer.



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 09:44:52


Post by: Nem


As far as intent, wasn't there a FAQ in 6th ed which stipulated part of a power was resolved regardless of the outcome of the precluding process?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 10:28:38


Post by: Naw


 FlingitNow wrote:
So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?


Yes, that is what we have been arguing all the time.

Now we can wait for a FAQ if they ever get to do that.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 12:31:02


Post by: FlingitNow


Hollismason wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Haemmorage, Combustion etc

So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

You keep using the term strawman, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fractions are part of the set of real numbers. So are irrational numbers. The point being made that you've missed is that you don't understand the maths you're trying to use. Hence the inaccuracies.

Ok so there's no result from rolling zero dice to hit. Why do you need a result? Not having a result allows you to continue resolving the power without creating house rules. Having a result in a number of hits forces you to create houserules to resolve those hits.


I think you maybe need to learn what a false analogy is and what deductive reasoning is that you seem to not be able to understand the basic concept of what I laid out.

For someone with a math degree you seem to have hard problem with the latter as we know specifically you cannot pick a negative number , nor can you pick a fraction as there are no way to resolve that, there is no way to resolve something that has a 0 rate of fire. We know the range of what it should be and our logic tells us that it cannot be X, Y, Z, so A is the only possible answer.



The problem is you're not using deductive reasoning. You're stating incorrect premises and then drawing incorrect conclusions that aren't even based on those premises.

For instance we know the resolution of rolling zero dice to hit. You get zero hits (and zero misses). So to say it is unresolvable is false. There is just no action for us to take.

Also even it is was unresolvable that doesn't mean it is not an option. For instance applying say 3 wounds to a vehicle is unresolvable if the vehicle has no wounds profile. By your logic we must therefore conclude all vehicles have wounds.

What you need for deductive reasoning is a pair of premises which are correct and which when taken together give another piece of information.

My advice is to not try to use deductive reasoning or maths until you understand it.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 12:43:16


Post by: Hollismason


Maybe you should actually take your own advice? Cause you seem to like to use false analogies and False Dichotomies a lot.

Cause you are getting something from nothing, first you are saying you can take an action that has no action, then claim its the same as averting an action which is false.

2nd your making a false analogy between something that we know the result of " What happens if you cast a psychic power on a rhino that gives it wounds" , " Nothing" is my answer not " Rhinos have wounds".

Which I don't even know where you got that from? Like maybe if you rearranged the letters in the words I used in my post you could make that statement. I don't know maybe you print screen and William Burroughs style the page then assume the result as the post someone made.


1. We know that it cannot have a 0 rate of fire as it must roll something as rolling nothing would mean you didn't roll to hit with a witchfire which works just like a shooting attack that requires you to roll something to hit not nothing.
2. We know it doesn't automatically hit because its makes no such statement.
3. We know it does not have a negative rate of fire
4. We know you can not choose a Fraction as it is impossible to hit.
5. We know the least dice would be 1.


That's all logic, I don't know where your getting all your other bs from, but it's funny because you do this in every thread you get backed into a corner with, like your gonna pull some sort of magic trick and then TA DA the rules of Logic and Reason no longer apply.



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 12:56:37


Post by: FlingitNow


2nd your making a false analogy between something that we know the result of " What happens if you cast a psychic power on a rhino that gives it wounds" , " Nothing" is my answer not " Rhinos have wounds". 


So why does nothing happen? You must apply the wounds and have no value to resolve that against.

Are you saying when you must do something but don't have the value required to resolve that then nothing happens. This is correct yes?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 13:26:44


Post by: FlingitNow


We know the PS doesn't have a profile stating how many shots it has. We know a Rhino doesn't have a profile stating how many wounds it has.

We know we must roll to hit with PS. We know we must apply the wounds to the Rhino.

Please argue against any of those 4 premises with rules.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 13:31:44


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
We know the PS doesn't have a profile stating how many shots it has. We know a Rhino doesn't have a profile stating how many wounds it has.

We know we must roll to hit with PS. We know we must apply the wounds to the Rhino.

Please argue why I can't eat your children because of this.



You absolutely cannot eat children because of Psychic Scream, I don't even know where you are getting this from? I mean seriously not only is it monstrous, but literal murder to kill and eat a child because of a rules dispute. Look it's like if I had a tank right that was purple, and you have a bird that was an orange, then we threw them at each other and they exploded into glitter dust. I mean does that answer your question?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 13:48:40


Post by: FlingitNow


Your concession is accepted.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 13:52:55


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
Your concession is accepted.


Oh my bad, I thought this was the part where were were making strawman arguments and illogical analogies. Please accept this video of Mr Rogers singing as an apology.






Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 14:03:17


Post by: FlingitNow


Thank you for conceding glad I was able to help you understand the rules.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 14:07:29


Post by: Hollismason


 FlingitNow wrote:
Thank you for conceding glad I was able to help you understand the rules.


I don't understand what you mean, would you please cite 4 sources on how you did so and submit it to my office by 9am on Friday along with a blood sample? Please use MLA standard.



Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 14:49:29


Post by: FlingitNow


Removed.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 14:52:31


Post by: Gravmyr


You mean like making statements that you are accepting concessions instead of just letting it?


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 15:06:08


Post by: FlingitNow


Gravmyr wrote:
You mean like making statements that you are accepting concessions instead of just letting it?


Good point well made. Apologies.


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 15:28:02


Post by: Hollismason


Yes, please explain to me again how rolling nothing is the exact same as rolling something. I mean that's some serious mental gymnastics. Then you go on with this insane, please sort 4 rules sources like we're in some sort of Phoenix Wright run courtroom drama. It's peculiar in a way that I can not describe.

Please though keep explaining how nothing is something though.

I've already explained exactly my point and why it's true. You've come up with false analogies, strawman arguments, and illogical fallacies. I don't have to point to a source in the rules that states " You must be logical when you read these rules".


Psychic Scream vs Chariots @ 2014/07/14 16:06:16


Post by: reds8n


Same old same old.