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Nem, then you are not allocating as you would any other shooting attack vs chariots

Gravmyr wrote:
Without it you have no permission to continue allocating.

What do you think I'm allocating and what rule do you think I'm breaking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gravmyr wrote:
Nem, then you are not allocating as you would any other shooting attack vs chariots

That's because other shooting attacks cause a defined number of hits and those hits are used to determine damage. That is not true of PS which generates an undefined number of huts which have nothing to do with the PS effect on the unit.

PS specifically says you allocate per any other shooting attack. Why are you doing it different?

Gravmyr wrote:
PS specifically says you allocate per any other shooting attack. Why are you doing it different?

Have you got a quote on that? What do you think I need to allocate? I notice you still can't answer my questions.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your rule, page and graph that allows you to do this. Considering you are required to roll a to hit roll, quote something that says these powers do not need that to hit roll.

Please read the thread this has been explained in detail.

You mean that when Witchfire specifically says that you must roll to hit, you interpret that to mean that you don't and resolve the power anyway? Can I also ignore the dice when I cast blessings/maledictions? After all, the spell descriptions don't say that I must roll. That is your stance.

Naw wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your rule, page and graph that allows you to do this. Considering you are required to roll a to hit roll, quote something that says these powers do not need that to hit roll.

Please read the thread this has been explained in detail.

You mean that when Witchfire specifically says that you must roll to hit, you interpret that to mean that you don't and resolve the power anyway? Can I also ignore the dice when I cast blessings/maledictions? After all, the spell descriptions don't say that I must roll. That is your stance.

It's actually not his stance at all.

Once you pass the required roll to manifest, you have permission to resolve the power. Part of resolving a witchfire requires a to-hit roll; Fling is (factually) saying that this roll is irrelevant as to-hit rolls only make to-wound rolls possible and PS doesn't make to-wound rolls.

rigeld2 wrote:

Naw wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your rule, page and graph that allows you to do this. Considering you are required to roll a to hit roll, quote something that says these powers do not need that to hit roll.

Please read the thread this has been explained in detail.

You mean that when Witchfire specifically says that you must roll to hit, you interpret that to mean that you don't and resolve the power anyway? Can I also ignore the dice when I cast blessings/maledictions? After all, the spell descriptions don't say that I must roll. That is your stance.

It's actually not his stance at all.

Once you pass the required roll to manifest, you have permission to resolve the power. Part of resolving a witchfire requires a to-hit roll; Fling is (factually) saying that this roll is irrelevant as to-hit rolls only make to-wound rolls possible and PS doesn't make to-wound rolls.

You see this is some one who has actually read the thread and therefore knows what's already been covered in detail repeatedly.

I go a little further and point that I can actually resolve the to hit roll but that as it is fortunately irrelevant to the effect PS has that this is not a problem and I simply assume the roll has happened and had whatever result happened I proceed with resolving the power according to its entry.

Edited: Going around in circles again...

My stance:
PS needs to roll 1 dice To Hit, as per page 27.
Until FaQed to be "Assault 1" or "roll 1 Dice", this simply has basis on page 27.

I can understand, even if i disagree, with the "0 Dice" concept.
However doing so would assume Molten Beam, and other Beams, would also "not roll To Hit". But they clearly have a "shooting profile".

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your rule, page and graph that allows you to do this. Considering you are required to roll a to hit roll, quote something that says these powers do not need that to hit roll.

Please read the thread this has been explained in detail. Argue against the points made or don't argue at all but reposting questions that have been answered in detail does not help move the discussion forward it is what creates a circular discussion.

I have read the thread. I also actively argued in previous threads. You have come in making a claim that you cannot support at all. RAW doesnt work here, so you cannot make the claims you are making as RAW.

OK on lunch so I can actually type out my reasoning.

I assume we can skip the psychic test and deny the witch rolls.
1: Roll To Hit. This is relevant for three reasons. A: Witchfire powers require the roll. B: The witchfire power requires you to allocate the hit. C: It is the only place in the shooting process you can choose the profile it applies to. Without that step there is no other time you have the option which profile to allocate to on the model at all. There is no option to allocate to the model only to one profile or the other.
2: Resolve the power, or not. If you didn't hit there is actually no way to proceed as there are no rules in shooting for what happens when we miss with a shooting attack, that is where we stop.
3: Allocate the wounds to the profile selected. Again without the allocation step from earlier there is no chance to allocate to the model at all.
4: Resolve the wounds. In most cases this would be the chariot as subtracting 1 from - resolves to..... -

I keep seeing people refer to Wounds as modifiers. They are never referred to as modifiers nor are they subtracted from the wounds characteristic. We also are not given a duration so how long do they last? All other modifiers last as long as the power is in effect or are listed as permanent.... Nor, as per the modifiers section, are they wargear or special rules.

#2 is not true at all. Unless you are advocating that

Haemorrhage
Purge Soul
Spontaneous Combustion
Crush

all do not work as written as they do not have a profile so we dont know how many dice to roll to hit, yet that all require a roll to hit through the Witchfire rules...

How does those powers being broken make statement #2 untrue?

Your reasoning seems backwards; #2 being true means that those powers are just as broken as Psychic Shriek.

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your rule, page and graph that allows you to do this. Considering you are required to roll a to hit roll, quote something that says these powers do not need that to hit roll.

Please read the thread this has been explained in detail. Argue against the points made or don't argue at all but reposting questions that have been answered in detail does not help move the discussion forward it is what creates a circular discussion.

I have read the thread. I also actively argued in previous threads. You have come in making a claim that you cannot support at all. RAW doesnt work here, so you cannot make the claims you are making as RAW.

Everything I've stated is RaW argue against the points raised if you disagree with them using RaW.


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Gravmyr wrote:
OK on lunch so I can actually type out my reasoning.

I assume we can skip the psychic test and deny the witch rolls.
1: Roll To Hit. This is relevant for three reasons. A: Witchfire powers require the roll. B: The witchfire power requires you to allocate the hit. C: It is the only place in the shooting process you can choose the profile it applies to. Without that step there is no other time you have the option which profile to allocate to on the model at all. There is no option to allocate to the model only to one profile or the other.
2: Resolve the power, or not. If you didn't hit there is actually no way to proceed as there are no rules in shooting for what happens when we miss with a shooting attack, that is where we stop.
3: Allocate the wounds to the profile selected. Again without the allocation step from earlier there is no chance to allocate to the model at all.
4: Resolve the wounds. In most cases this would be the chariot as subtracting 1 from - resolves to..... -

I keep seeing people refer to Wounds as modifiers. They are never referred to as modifiers nor are they subtracted from the wounds characteristic. We also are not given a duration so how long do they last? All other modifiers last as long as the power is in effect or are listed as permanent.... Nor, as per the modifiers section, are they wargear or special rules.

So we know this isn't RaW and we know the various rules mistakes and deliberate factual inaccuracies you have posted as they have been well documented. So I assume this is you conceding?

I note you still haven't answered the questions I raised which just further highlights you know your position is false.

I work. Try it and see how much time you have. Don't attack me cause I spent my lunch time answering some of your questions but not the other ones. I assume your inability to be polite means that you are ignorant of other people's needs.

Gravmyr wrote:
I work. Try it and see how much time you have. Don't attack me cause I spent my lunch time answering some of your questions but not the other ones. I assume your inability to be polite means that you are ignorant of other people's needs.

Calling someone impolite whilst simultaneously accusing them of being unemployed, and having repeatedly put intentional falsehoods in your posts, does not give your argument much credibility.

You find enough time to respond. So please answer the 3 points listed and try to stay away from personal attacks.

Sorry you didn't answer soon enough I have already assumed you have conceded.

Once again with the personal attacks and rude behaviour. I answered all your questions. You didn't answer mine, I never put a time limit on it but you kept posting without answering the questions which again illustrates the strength of your argument. I've answered everything you asked and priven my case RaW. You've repeated statements you know to be untrue, created rules out of thin air, refuse to answer simple questions and resorted to personal attacks on my employment status and ignorance (both of which have as strong a basis as your rules interpretation).


So I'll try again if you refuse again to answer I think everyone will see that you know your interpretation is false. So lets assume you do roll to hit and that the to hit roll determines if there is damage and who is effected. I have 3 questions for you once you assign this to the Chariot: 

1) What strength do you use for the required roll to penetrate the vehicle? 
2) What leadership do you use to resolve the 3d6-ld 
3) How do you apply the wounds to the vehicle 

Remembering of course if your response to any of these is that as they are unresolvable therefore they do nothing your entire argument collapses.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Edited: Going around in circles again...

My stance:
PS needs to roll 1 dice To Hit, as per page 27.
Until FaQed to be "Assault 1" or "roll 1 Dice", this simply has basis on page 27.

I can understand, even if i disagree, with the "0 Dice" concept.
However doing so would assume Molten Beam, and other Beams, would also "not roll To Hit". But they clearly have a "shooting profile".

As my copy of the rulebook does not have page numbers, would I be right in assuming that "page 27" is "ROLL TO HIT"?

If so, I'm not seeing anywhere it says 1 dice roll is needed. Could you please elaborate?

Fling and friends keep going in circles using circular logic and ultimately, we can't convince them because they don't want to listen.

Also, they can play however they want...The thing that really matters to me and to the OP is how a competent TO and event will handle the situation. I'm sure the OP will agree with me that the way the power is resolved at major events like the BAO and so on will be the way I proposed earlier in this thread so what a few outlying and vocal people think really ends up being of no consequence in the big picture.

How BAO FAQ it I don't know. Given this works the same way as it did in 6th and BAO is basically a 6th Ed tournament I'd be inclined to assume they FAQ it to follow the RaW. But whatever they decide is up to them they may decide to make a raft of houserules like they have for army composition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mortetvie
I assume you interpretation is largely (if not wholly) the same Gravmyr's so I'll ask you the same question:

So lets assume you do roll to hit with one dice and that the to hit roll determines if there is damage and who is effected. I have 3 questions for you once you assign this to the Chariot:  

1) What strength do you use for the required roll to penetrate the vehicle?  
2) What leadership do you use to resolve the 3d6-ld  
3) How do you apply the wounds to the vehicle  

Remembering of course if your response to any of these is that as they are unresolvable therefore they do nothing your entire argument collapses.

 BlackTalos wrote:
PS needs to roll 1 dice To Hit, as per page 27.

Quote the rule - my electronic page numbers don't help but I can't imagine what rule you're talking about.

However doing so would assume Molten Beam, and other Beams, would also "not roll To Hit". But they clearly have a "shooting profile".

Correct. And?

If you go by the assumption that Beams must roll to hit, then you're saying that you roll to hit the first unit, and then hit every unit under the line. Which makes no sense.

The beam example does not work because it has specific rules that apply to it.

To answer your question:

1.) no S value so you don't apply the damage result to vehicles (it essentially has no S value). There are some weapons that have no S value and those obviously can't affect vehicles or that reason-haywire has no s value when attacking vehicles and some of the older poisoned weapons have no S value so it really doesn't matter that psychic shriek has no S value..

2.) the vehicle, likewise has no ld value of its own so you would either use the rider's ld if the rules say so or else you would not have a ld value to use and would herefore do 3d6 wounds as 3d6-0=3d6.

3.) the wounds would not be applied to the vehicle because te vehicle doesn't have any wounds.

So ultimately, the power would have no effect on the chariot portion of the chariot model-hence the reason applying the power to the chariot protects the rider much in the same way a lasgun can't hurt the vehicle portion if the chariot so applying and resolving lasgun shots against chariot is attactive.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool the unit takes 3d6-LD test right?

Wrong. It simple is a 3d6 roll that you subtract the target's Ld from.

 mortetvie wrote:
To answer your question:

1.) no S value so you don't apply the damage result to vehicles (it essentially has no S value). There are some weapons that have no S value and those obviously can't affect vehicles or that reason-haywire has no s value when attacking vehicles and some of the older poisoned weapons have no S value so it really doesn't matter that psychic shriek has no S value..

So no strength value means it does no damage but no number of shots value means you make up a number of shots. Why treat it differently?

2.) the vehicle, likewise has no ld value of its own so you would either use the rider's ld if the rules say so or else you would not have a ld value to use and would herefore do 3d6 wounds as 3d6-0=3d6.

So now no value = 0. That seems reasonable so why is this different to the number of to hit dice you roll for PS? Why is that not also treated as 0?

3.) the wounds would not be applied to the vehicle because te vehicle doesn't have any wounds.

So ultimately, the power would have no effect on the chariot portion of the chariot model-hence the reason applying the power to the chariot protects the rider much in the same way a lasgun can't hurt the vehicle portion if the chariot so applying and resolving lasgun shots against chariot is attactive.

So now no value to resolve against means you don't resolve that rule. Why treat that differently to the roll to hit for PS?

So we see your approach is entirely hypocritical and you've just defeated your own case. Thank you for your concession.

1: You don't roll to penetrate as the "weapon" in this case can only create wounds
2: You use - as the chariot does not have a leadership and can only use the rider's leadership in the case of a characteristic test
3: You subtract the number of wounds from (-) giving you (-)
Now look back at my posts. I stated clearly that what I am playing is a Houserule as currently you cannot play this power as written.

Now, you have been asked numerous times to post a rule that allows you to not roll the To Hit. What you keep posting is the wording of the general rules for psychic powers or the wording of the spell which tells you that it follows the rules for witchfire powers. Neither of which tell you that you can skip the To Hit roll. Being a permissive ruleset I know that you know that you need a specific allowance to violate a rule. Like assault vehicle rules do not allow you to assault the turn you come from reserve.

PS tells you it is a witchfire power this indicates which specific rules you have to follow for it's type. Therefor you follow all the rules for that type unless you have a more specific rule that tells you otherwise. Does PS have it's own rules for allocation? You end up with wounds in a pool with no rules for allocation if all we are following is the rules as spelled out explicitly by PS.

I spelled out which rules you are breaking in my post of my houserule.

That's because other shooting attacks cause a defined number of hits and those hits are used to determine damage. That is not true of PS which generates an undefined number of hits which have nothing to do with the PS effect on the unit.

How exactly are you getting the wounds out of the wound pool and onto the Chariot?

@rigeld2: The rule he is referring to is "Most models only get one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later." This is in the To Hit section of the ranged attack section.

Gravmyr wrote:
@rigeld2: The rule he is referring to is "Most models only get one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later." This is in the To Hit section of the ranged attack section.

Sure. And that has exactly zero relevance and doesn't say what he said it does.

If PS is a psychic shooting attack and the model is shooting how does that not become relevant?

Gravmyr wrote:
If PS is a psychic shooting attack and the model is shooting how does that not become relevant?

Because it doesn't actually say how many shots a witchfire (or PS specifically) has. You can make assumptions off of it, sure - but that's all it is.

Why do I need to roll for hit with Smite? How do you know how to resolve PS with the roll having no effect, but then claim it works for Smite?

Maybe I am missing a rule? Under Witchfire:"Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similat to ranged weapons.

Some, but not all. Yet we are told that all Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. So tell me, why do you knoe how to resolve the powers with profiles but not the ones without? Rules do not require weapon profiles.