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That's cool but the attitude expressed in "it's way more preferable than having an 11 page Talmudic discussion about the rules interpretations K.I.S.S." implies that people playing by the clear intent and RaW are some how wrong.

In my group (probably around 30-40 people) we play it by the clear intent and that makes for a fun enjoyable game that is also easy for any new comer to join as we don't have to explain that we don't like the rules so have changed them. However your group chooses to play is up to you. If you all enjoy it then you're doing it right for your group. But to imply that anyone who either wants to know the RaW and RaI or plays by those is wrong for doing so is an attitude that is likely to create a response.

That's the thing though, I'm not sure the intent is so clear, and I think the length for which this discussion has gone on is at least some kind of testament to that.

I never implied (or i guess intended to imply) that the way you play it is wrong. I was simply offering how my group handled the rules situation (and poking a bit of fun at the length of this thread). The Keep It Simple Stupid method works really well when trying to figure out where the rules meet reality. We tend to edge the game towards making more real-world sense. i.e. it seems to us that the chariot is often simply too fast for a rider that takes up such a small portion of a vehicle to be hit by the mind-bullet-ray that is psychic scream, of course there's all kinds of real-ish scenarios one could dream up that imply the inverse, however this explanation works for us. Rather than following the strict RAW. I'm not super worried about alienating newcomers, I live in a small town so generally when someone new joins up it happens infrequently enough that they usually have no problem adopting house rules and typically the game makes more sense.

Rules discussions in our group tend to be really short and often are quickly resolved after we ask the question "what would happen?"

Neither of us are "wrong" at least until GW secret police break into our basements and confiscate our models for not playing the game right.

Or you could just play by the rules?

Good plan, but then why..

No rolls to hit and the unit is effected regardless of hits.

... do you ignore Witchfire rules?

Let's just kill this thread and wait for FAQ?

Have you read the thread? The to hit roll is impossible to resolve and in that situation as everyone does in similar situations you say nothing happens. Or if you prefer you are told to make a to hit roll to not given permission to use any dice for that roll. Hence you roll zero dice generate zero hits and resolve the 3d6-ld effect on the target as the rules tell you to.

This does not need an FAQ and is not unclear people just want it to be. I've never come across anyone that thought Enfeeble on a vehicle caused a problem and that you needed to invent a S&T for you to resolve the -1 against. Or that we need to invent an Ld or wounds for the Chariot to resolve the 3d6-ld and resultant wounds at best someone has claimed you count them as zero (which of course insta kills the chariot). This is not unclear. RaW and intent are very obvious if you read all the rules and don't make assumptions about how you want it to work first.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you read the thread? The to hit roll is impossible to resolve and in that situation as everyone does in similar situations you say nothing happens.

Yes, I have. And no, it is not impossible. This also has been pointed out so many times that I'm not going to anymore.

Not with any rules support it hasn't. How do you think it works then Naw? It obviously can't be the same self defeating argument Gravmyr or Mortetvie used.

I am quite positive that there is more rules support for throwing a single d6 than none at all:

- every shooting attack defaults at 1 unless otherwise specified
- the requirement for a witchfire to roll to hit
- besides PS there are other similarly behaving (no profile given) witchfire powers

What is your rule based excuse for not rolling dice at all? "It is not needed" is a bad excuse for ignoring a rule to roll.

How about spending time to figure out how many to throw?

Naw wrote:
I am quite positive that there is more rules support for throwing a single d6 than none at all:

1. every shooting attack defaults at 1 unless otherwise specified
2. the requirement for a witchfire to roll to hit
3. besides PS there are other similarly behaving (no profile given) witchfire powers

What is your rule based excuse for not rolling dice at all? "It is not needed" is a bad excuse for ignoring a rule to roll.

How about spending time to figure out how many to throw?

I've added numbers for ease of reference.

1. As you know this statement not true. Please don't put intentional falsehoods in your argument it doesn't help anything.
2. Which is fulfilled by rolling the 0 dice to hit that PS tells you to roll. Or roll a random number of dice and ignore the result if you wish.
3. Which of course work like PS look at most focussed Witchfires if you exceed the casting value you pick who the power is resolved against. I can even begin to imagine how you think this works with a roll to hit?

I also see no way to resolve including a roll to hit. Which I assume means you know there is no way for that to work as you refuse to state the process you take. I've shown my process and it has been proven categorically correct RaW. Yoy can't even state yours as you know it has no basis in the rules.

Thank you for the invite back in. I would like to point out that no one should be claiming that someone is intentionally lying as that is the same as calling them a liar which is directly forbidden by the tenets of Dakka/YMTC.

This is also off topic and there should be another thread about witchfires and the need to roll. Pretty sure a link to it was posted already.

This is too easy guys. There is no to hit roll therefore there is no way to change where the wounds are allocated. This is strictly to the rider and not the chariot itself.

Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.

Eihnlazer wrote:
shingen thats not a problem.

We are given a clear str value and vehicles have no ldr.

The defending player allocates to either his warlord which will be wounded on a 4+ because he has ldr 10, or will be up againgst armor 13 and so will need a 3 to glance and a 4+ to pen.

Hits from blast weapons are resolved against the Chariot. Since the Chariot does not have a LD value, Vect's blast does nothing.

Hollismason wrote:
Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.

So there's several things wrong with this. You assume the range is 1 to infinity with no rules support particularly as the value zero for shots is the only number with actual rules support.

You assume it can't cause more than 1 hit again with no support. Just because the effect only ever occurs once has no baring on hits as the effect and hits have literally no connection.

You say we know when it does hit the effect occurs, we also know when it doesn't hit the effect occurs. Which basically destroys your line of thought.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Actually we do know it's range which satisfies the requirement, it's range is going to be 1 to Infinity. One hit would satisfy that requirement as we know it does not produce 2 hits as the psychic power cannot hit "twice". Just pointing that out. I have no desire to write out the math , Sorry.

I'm sure someone else could write it out better than me.

Basically you don't need to know how many "shots" it does as the effect is only applied once. Since it has no range given it can be stated to be 1 through Infinity.

We know that when it does hit the effect occurs. We know that multiple hits do not incur multiple effects. The only option left is to say it automatically hits as you cannot roll infinite dice and any choice in that range is as valid as another. If I were to say it has 10,000 rof and roll 10,000 dice it'd be just as valid as if you said it has a rate of fire of 1.

Or you could both agree that it has a rate of fire of 1 since that's a perfectly valid number in that range as well.

So there's several things wrong with this. You assume the range is 1 to infinity with no rules support particularly as the value zero for shots is the only number with actual rules support.

You assume it can't cause more than 1 hit again with no support. Just because the effect only ever occurs once has no baring on hits as the effect and hits have literally no connection.

You say we know when it does hit the effect occurs, we also know when it doesn't hit the effect occurs. Which basically destroys your line of thought.

You are literally not figuratively arguing with math and logic.

1. It must have a minimum rate of 1 as that is the least number a shot can have , it cannot be Zero as a ROF of zero would not be a valid number as then it would be unable to fire. This is literally basic level logic. It's also not a valid number as Zero is actually not a positive real number. That's why it's Zero.
2. We do not know it's range , it can be expressed as (–∞, 0) U (0, ∞) , which is all real numbers except Zero
3. We know that it cannot be a negative number as the rules do not support negative ROF.
4. If all positive real numbers are valid choices, then we can express it's ROF as (0, +∞)
5. It's affect applies when it hits, as there is no rule support stating "For each hit, resolve" instead. It is in the rule itself of how to resolve the psychic power, that regardless of the numbers of hits you resolve the Psychic Power. I don't need rule support whatsoever or some weird "show your work" as it is stated clearly what happens when the power hits and there is no way to infer multiple hits to give indication or a rule that states otherwise that multiple hits cause the power to resolve multiple times. In fact you yourself would need to "show your work".
6. Since it's ROF is (0, +∞) , then any real number in that selection is valid.
7. This would mean all numbers are valid , so you can either state it hits automatically as statistically if I want to roll 100,000 dice it will succeed regardless of what the Ballistic Skill of the unit is. The rules themselves do not though state it hits automatically we should make the reasonable assumption then that if it does not in fact hit automatically that statistically it needs a way to "fail" but just stating it hits automatically is also valid.
8. The only real valid reasonable solution is to set it's ROF at 1 which would be decided by you and your opponent. The reason it is the only viable choice is that while it is not stated what it's ROF is it's only definitive number is 1 as that is the start of the range. (0, +∞). It cannot be 0 as Zero literally means nothing. It's not a number positive or negative and the power must have a rate of fire or a number of dice to roll in order to hit. We know this because it does not state it hits automatically.

Please keep arguing with me though about math and rudimentary logic.

I'm not arguing against the maths. One of us has a degree in maths the other thinks that this is a solvable problem:

The number of apples a man has depends on his age.
Bod is 20 how many apples does he have?

1. Not actually true it could be a ranged weapon with zero rate of fire. Just saying it must be 1 doesn't make it true. How many shots are we permitted to take with it?

2. Again using a false premise repeating it doesn't make it more true.

3. Wow something correct.

4. All non-negative integers are valid. Not real numbers unless you'd like to tell me how to resolve pi shots?

5. This again why mention that the effect occurs if you hit? The effect also occurs if you don't hit. That is your issue you're tying the number of hits to the effect there is no relationship between the two.

6. Again no I can't resolve 0.1356742 hits.

7. Rolling 100,000 dice does not mean you hit automatically just means you're unlikely to ever miss.

8. No 1 is an assumption unsupported by any rules, zero is yhr number of shots the rules give you permission to take. Even if we do roll 1 dice then what? The effect resolves against the unit regardless of the result of that dice roll so why bother rolling it? Rolling it just then gives you a hit which you then have to resolve forcing you to create other houserules.

The problem with arguing basic logic and maths with someone that understands neither is that when you repeatedly show the flaw in their argument they don't understand and keep repeating the argument for what 12 pages now?

2. PS actually has a range listed in the power itself.

5. has no basis in the rules. Psychic Shriek's effect applies when you successfully manifest the power, hit or miss, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry. (Because of this your roll 1 dice argument falls apart).

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not arguing against the maths. One of us has a degree in maths the other thinks that this is a solvable problem:

The number of apples a man has depends on his age.
Bod is 20 how many apples does he have?

1. Not actually true it could be a ranged weapon with zero rate of fire. Just saying it must be 1 doesn't make it true. How many shots are we permitted to take with it?

2. Again using a false premise repeating it doesn't make it more true.

3. Wow something correct.

4. All non-negative integers are valid. Not real numbers unless you'd like to tell me how to resolve pi shots?

5. This again why mention that the effect occurs if you hit? The effect also occurs if you don't hit. That is your issue you're tying the number of hits to the effect there is no relationship between the two.

6. Again no I can't resolve 0.1356742 hits.

7. Rolling 100,000 dice does not mean you hit automatically just means you're unlikely to ever miss.

8. No 1 is an assumption unsupported by any rules, zero is yhr number of shots the rules give you permission to take. Even if we do roll 1 dice then what? The effect resolves against the unit regardless of the result of that dice roll so why bother rolling it? Rolling it just then gives you a hit which you then have to resolve forcing you to create other houserules.

The problem with arguing basic logic and maths with someone that understands neither is that when you repeatedly show the flaw in their argument they don't understand and keep repeating the argument for what 12 pages now?

Please show me how to roll zero dice to hit, thanks. Also please show me how to roll Negative dice to hit. Zero is not a valid number for it's range. Please show me one weapon in the entire game that has a zero rate of fire. Thanks. If you have a degree in math then you'll know that it has to have a range of real numbers that are positive as we cannot choose to roll zero dice to hit and we cannot choose to roll - dice.

It's only valid number choices are all positive real numbers.

As for the other points, I don't even want to calculate the real number of a percentage chance to hit with 100,000 dice.

I mean both answers are valid answers, you can state it hits automatically or you can state the beginning of the range but don't argue with me that this thing has a zero ROF or a Negative Rate of fire.

 DeathReaper wrote:
2. PS actually has a range listed in the power itself.

5. has no basis in the rules. Psychic Shriek's effect applies when you successfully manifest the power, hit or miss, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry. (Because of this your roll 1 dice argument falls apart).

O_o on the first one, you realize we are arguing about a range of numbers , right?

If you miss with a shooting attack what happens?

Rolling zero dice to hit is physically the same as not tolling to hit. The argument that no weapon has zero shots means that PS can't is entirely illogical as usual your inability to understand basic logic causes problems.

You keep saying all positive real numbers are possible. So show me how to roll 0.12466 dice. Please.

It appears the only answer supported by the rules is a zero rate of fire. Just because you don't want it to be zero has no bearing.

A shooting attack that does not hit has no permission to make a to wound or armour penetration roll. The PS effect is neither an only requires you to target then successfully manifest the power.

Hollismason wrote:

O_o on the first one, you realize we are arguing about a range of numbers , right?

If you miss with a shooting attack what happens?

Right, I read #2 solo out of context, please ignore my 2 in my previous post.

If you miss with a shooting attack you do not get to roll To Wound.

Fortunately PS does not have a To Wound roll, so I am not sure what you are getting at here.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rolling zero dice to hit is physically the same as not tolling to hit. The argument that no weapon has zero shots means that PS can't is entirely illogical as usual your inability to understand basic logic causes problems.

You keep saying all positive real numbers are possible. So show me how to roll 0.12466 dice. Please.

It appears the only answer supported by the rules is a zero rate of fire. Just because you don't want it to be zero has no bearing.A shooting attack that does not hit has no permission to make a to wound or armour penetration roll. The PS effect is neither an only requires you to target then successfully manifest the power.

That's easy , there are no fractions in 40k , it's clearly stated.

Here's not quiet the same example but pretty easy to tell that fractions are always rounded up.

Actually rolling Zero, and not having to roll are completely two different things. One is a exemption, one is a impossibility as you can not determine a result from a zero dice roll. That's a false analogy.


Here's not quiet the same example but pretty easy to tell that fractions are always rounded up.

Dividing to Conquer
On occasion, you’ll be called upon to divide the result of a dice roll, a characteristic or some other value. Where this happens, any fractions should always be rounded up. So a D6 roll of 3, halved, would be a result of 2 (1.5 rounded up). Similarly, 10% of a unit of twenty-one models, rounded up, would be 3 models.


Warhammer 40k only uses whole numbers , that's just a strawman argument to say you can pick a fraction when the game doesn't allow it in any circumstance at all anywhere in the rules. Stop using a strawman argument and false analogies.

It has to have a rate of fire that is above zero as there is no way to actually resolve Zero Dice or Negative Dice or Fractionally dice ( which are actually rounded up).

You're the one using real numbers and those rules talk about dice results not numbers of dice rolled. Do you even know what the set of real numbers is?

Rolling zero dice is synonymous with not rolling any dice and therefore not rolling at all.

Which is against the rules

@ Hollismason: QED...

But also following the rules.

Please point me to one single piece of wargear or any other weapon that does not roll dice to hit that is not a beam weapon and even that still "hits" it's target as it's automatic. Something is either automatic, triggers, or rolls to hit.

There's no weapon in the game or any other notation for 0 rate of fire. Even a beam weapon fires once.

You have no rule basis, or any example that you can in fact roll zero dice for something . It's also a terrible analogy.



Its a strawman argument to say I can declare a fraction as one of my real numbers, want me to go back and do set whole number intervals for it because I can. It's a bs strawman argument that's ignoring basic fundamentals of logic , reasoning and math.

We know we have to pick a whole number

It's not the same at all. It's a false analogy by the way and no synomous as one is a aversion of not doing something and one is doing something with no result.

I roll zero dice and not rolling are not the same at all. It's just bad logic.

If I I roll zero dice , I've committed an action that has no result

If I've not rolled any dice I've averted an action and it cannot have a result because it's been averted.

Haemmorage, Combustion etc

So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

You keep using the term strawman, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fractions are part of the set of real numbers. So are irrational numbers. The point being made that you've missed is that you don't understand the maths you're trying to use. Hence the inaccuracies.

Ok so there's no result from rolling zero dice to hit. Why do you need a result? Not having a result allows you to continue resolving the power without creating house rules. Having a result in a number of hits forces you to create houserules to resolve those hits.

Really, either way you cut it, house rules come into play. Having an argument over who's house rule is better is not really relevant here. Recomending we close this thread as it now reads the same as every other Psychic Shriek thread.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Really, either way you cut it, house rules come into play. Having an argument over who's house rule is better is not really relevant here. Recomending we close this thread as it now reads the same as every other Psychic Shriek thread.

Do you believe it takes a houserule to resolve the -1 S&T of enfeeble against a Rhino?

Do you believe it takes a houserule to resolve the 3d6-ld wounds against the Chariot Vehicle profile?

How about resolving Haemorrhage against a Rhino?

If not how do you resolve each of those?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Haemmorage, Combustion etc

So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

You keep using the term strawman, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fractions are part of the set of real numbers. So are irrational numbers. The point being made that you've missed is that you don't understand the maths you're trying to use. Hence the inaccuracies.

Ok so there's no result from rolling zero dice to hit. Why do you need a result? Not having a result allows you to continue resolving the power without creating house rules. Having a result in a number of hits forces you to create houserules to resolve those hits.

I think you maybe need to learn what a false analogy is and what deductive reasoning is that you seem to not be able to understand the basic concept of what I laid out.

For someone with a math degree you seem to have hard problem with the latter as we know specifically you cannot pick a negative number , nor can you pick a fraction as there are no way to resolve that, there is no way to resolve something that has a 0 rate of fire. We know the range of what it should be and our logic tells us that it cannot be X, Y, Z, so A is the only possible answer.

As far as intent, wasn't there a FAQ in 6th ed which stipulated part of a power was resolved regardless of the outcome of the precluding process?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So are you arguing that a Punisher isn't Heavy 20 as no other weapon in the game is RoF 20?

Yes, that is what we have been arguing all the time.

Now we can wait for a FAQ if they ever get to do that.