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Post by: TheDraconicLord
One more unlock! 4 hours to go and currenty at $482,636
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 9 minutes ago
Okay couple things:
1) I have confirmation that should we not unlock everything here – Boo! – we will continue to unlock through the pledge manager – Yay!
so Moon Princess looks a dead certainty (if we don't get her in the next few hours),
and Goemon and Mr YMCA himself BAKUSHO MONDAI are still within reach
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
Oh hell yes, thank you for the wonderful news Orlando! 
I'm gonna drown in chibi ninjas by the end of the year
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I'm keeping my buck in - I want to split a pledge with my pals, but no takers so far.
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Post by: Schmapdi
nkelsch wrote:Schmapdi wrote:It hasn't gotten quite the bump I was expecting overnight - but I still feel pretty good about hitting $500k.
I'm in for a dollar - but like a lot of people apparently - I'm torn. I do really like a lot of the ninjas/ronin. But I tallied up the number of minis in the elemental master pledge (+ 3-4 of my favorite Ronin) and it's upwards of 90 minis. That's a lot more painting obligation than I'm really looking for atm.
So I'm thinking I'll leave my dollar in and see if I can just get a single clan + ronin (+maybe set of shrine ninja?) + SDE stuff during the pledge manager. If not I'll wait till retail I guess.
I really think they missed the boat not having a 'base game + 1 clan' or something as that is all most people will need. I suspect a lot of 'in for a dollar' might be 'in for 60$' if they could do base game and a clan.
Considering 2 shrines is 20$, and a full clan is 30$, It looks pretty clear this will be a 2-shrine box retail for around 50$ish. I think expecting people to basically furnish multiple teams in a league-based sports game is a bad model.
This is very true. I wrote SPM via Kickstarter and suggested as much. Told them that base game + 1 clan + 1 shrine ninja set + SDE stuff would basically: Allow 2 people to play the game, give them one "full" clan for league play, and be a perfect SDE crossover pledge. I'd be all over that pledge for $60ish - even with no freebie stretch goals added (beyond what gets added to the clan box).
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 JohnHwangDD wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:Schmapdi wrote:They'll most definitely hit $500k. I could see it falling just short of the $550k goal - but even then they'd probably unlock via pledge manager additions or whatnot.
They are just over $455k with 9 hours to go.
I think $500k is a bit of a stretch, but I'm sure SPM would love to see my under proven wrong.
It's now $465k with 7.0 hours to go, so pace has increased to $5k per hour. $500k is in sight, but not yet assured.
Not quite $490k with 4.0 hours to go, so pace has increased further, running $7.5k per hour.
At this rate, $500k is assured and $525k is possible - I'm impressed with how much pledging picked up in the last hours.
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
$502k! It REALLY picked up some speed! Come to daddy, Moon Princess!
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Post by: durecellrabbit
I'm in for the elemental option. I can always pick up more stuff at retail if I want it.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Just over half an hour to go and Goemon seems to be a pretty sure thing now. Looks like we'll fall short of the last goal - but I'm pretty sure it will be unlocked via the pledge manager contributions.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
Schmapdi wrote:Just over half an hour to go and Goemon seems to be a pretty sure thing now. Looks like we'll fall short of the last goal - but I'm pretty sure it will be unlocked via the pledge manager contributions.
If only you could change models out... I could do without village guy knock off
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Post by: Alpharius
SO, have they confirmed in for a $1 and you can upgrade later?
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Post by: Schmapdi
I believe so? I don't have a link handy or anything - But I seem to recall that you could. They allowed it during the SDE:TFK campaign so I can't see them not allowing it here.
** Final total 531,829. Not bad - a little short of what I thought it would hit yesterday. But close. Had they not stumbled out of the gate the first few days they could have cleared $600k easy.
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Post by: Alpharius
A fair bit more than $465K then! 
Glad to hear about the "In for A Buck Now, Upgrade Later" confirmation - gives me time to think, decide, save, etc.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Here you go Alph, you don't even need to have put in a buck:
http://sodapopminiatures.com/ninja-all-stars-late-pledge
From that link:
If you have already pledged for the Ninja All-Stars Kickstarter you DO NOT need to get a Late Pledge, even if you only pledged $1. We will send you a link to the pledge manager when it becomes available.
So good either way!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Funded for $531k!
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:From all of us at Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division–
THANK YOU!
Launching a new IP can be a daunting proposition, even a little scary. We have spent a great deal of time and passion into bringing Ninja All-Stars to you. Your response has been overwhelming. To have the Kickstarter perform as well as it has is immensely rewarding, and we are truly fortunate to have such amazing fans, both old and new.
Thanks to you Ninja All-Stars will leap from concept to reality with an incredibly diverse array of models. We can’t wait to launch into production and bring Ninja All-Stars to your game night.
What’s Next?
1) Kickstarter Comes For Your Wallet!
First Kickstarter through Swipe is going to charge you based on your pledge amount. It's best this part happen like removing a bandaid. Nice and quick! If for some reason it gets stuck and there is a problem with your payment–Don't Panic.
If your card is declined, for whatever reason, you will have 7 days to resolve the issue. Kickstarter will send you an email with instructions on how to resolve the problem and periodic email reminders for the week. In addition, you will have a Fix Payment button available when you log into your account.
If you still have issues resolving your payment please contact Kickstarter support. We don’t have any control over the payment collection, so unfortunately will be unable to help if you PM us.
If for some reason you are unable to resolve any payment issues within the 7 days then you can PM us and we can arrange to have you back through alternate methods.
2) Soda Pop takes the rest the night off and drinks a bottle of sake!
Yup! One night of sake induced relaxation here we come.
3) Kickstarter Survey & Pledge Manager
After the sake. We have a game to finish and you're going to be along for the ride!
In a few weeks, we will send you the Kickstarter survey to collect information that we need to fulfill your pledge rewards. A little while after that we will have the Pledge Manager up and running through the Soda Pop Store. We will also provide a full tutorial for how to finalize your pledge at that time.
You will use the pledge manager to confirm what rewards you want to receive for pledging, additionally fund, and to provide your shipping address. We anticipate the pledge manager will be open for several weeks, but we'll make sure to keep you updated so you can plan your finances accordingly.
Additional funds earned in the pledge manager will go towards unlocking Bakusho Mondai!
4) Communication Plan
We will be posting weekly updates, every Friday, even if the update is only to let you know that everything is progressing as normal.
However, we will not be as active in the comments sections. We will still drop in from time to time, but time spent chatting in comments is time we can be spending finishing the game, and we all know which we prefer.
We will keep you informed about the processes that are going on to make Ninja All-Stars. This means you’ll know as layout starts, tooling and mold making commences, when manufacturing begins, and ultimately when shipping and fulfillment happen.
Let's Ninja Dance!
That's the basic road map. We'll be giving you gobs of detail as we enter each phase of development and production. In the meantime, we encourage you to join our community and chat with your fellow dungeon explorers. If you want to spread your love for Ninja All-Stars to the masses we suggest you check out our Ninja Corps volunteer program.
Until then enjoy the rest of your evening and party like Ninja!
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Post by: Binabik15
We don't need 1 dollar pledges? I hoped that would be the case, because KS didn't play ball. I had to log in again and again and was still told to log in AGAIN during every step, then I gave up. Was it updated again? Now half of every page is translated to German, making it a total mess.
I love Hard Gay. Many shall be pelvic thrusted TO DEATH.
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
 Maniac_nmt wrote:Schmapdi wrote:Just over half an hour to go and Goemon seems to be a pretty sure thing now. Looks like we'll fall short of the last goal - but I'm pretty sure it will be unlocked via the pledge manager contributions.
If only you could change models out... I could do without village guy knock off
It's a freebie. You just need to give it away to someone who might find it a fun miniature
I don't know much about Hard Gay (the Village guy knock off) but the mini looks cute and fun as hell, I'll be hopefully we'll get it too
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Post by: nkelsch
I am sure many of the 'unwanted' ronin will be able to be sold to others. I will gladly scoop up anyone's unwanted monsters.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
I couldn't wait and worked up a quick and dirty mod of a GI Joe Micro Force.
They are rubber, so I don't know how the paint will hold up. However they do have some ninja, Zartan, and Snakeeyes for Arishikage to throw down with.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Today, the NAS Pledge Manager went live:
Today is pledge management day. Hooray! So this entire update is devoted to a tutorial on how to use it. Lets begin!
1. The Pledge Manager is run through the Soda Pop Store.
You can get to it by using this awesome link: Soda Pop Store!
2. If you already had a Soda Pop Store account.
Your account has been credited with Ninja Star Reward Points equal to the amount you pledged. (1 Point = $0.01 USD)
3. If you did not have a Soda Pop Store account.
We have created an account for you, using the e-mail address you provided in the survey. If you did not provide an address in the survey, we created one using your Kickstarter address.
You will (or already have received) an e-mail that has the login information for your account.
Your account has been credited with Ninja Star Reward Points equal to the amount you pledged. (1 Point = $0.01 USD)
 The $180 "Easy Pledge" is new, collecting all 6 Clans and all 6 Shrines. This is a -$60 discount from $100 Ninja Master + $20 extra Shrines + 4x $30 Clans - an excellent value compared to a la carte, assuming you want the Shrines. If you don't want the Shrines, then spending the extra +$20 for double Elemental Master is better, because it gives a 2nd set of game components and a 2nd set of bonuses. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/ninja-all-stars/posts/1254734
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Post by: Schmapdi
Sadly - still can't a la carte what I want - no way to get the SDE cards separate from the main pledges it seems.
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Post by: Dentry
So looking at the Pledge Manager and wondering if Skill Rings and Base Rings are the same thing. Anyone know?
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
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Post by: durecellrabbit
My copy has just arrived. Looks like nothing got broken and I got lots of stuff.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Wow is that in the UK as per your flag?
(I presume you didn't get any tracking email)
I need to start door watching
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Post by: durecellrabbit
Yup, I'm in the UK. I did get a we're out on delivery email from the delivery company (DX Delivery) in the morning.
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Post by: Bioptic
Ah, that's who they are! So many Kickstarters ship without giving a tracking email, and those that do don't actually say who they're from.
I ordered 2 base boxes of this one, since it actually worked out to be much more cost effective than buying the remainder of what I wanted, and added nothing to shipping. I'm...not proud, especially because these big American boxes are annihilating my shelf space.
Still, nice boxes though:
...even if they found a way to work absurd cleavage into the tastefulness.
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Post by: durecellrabbit
Now I got an email from Ninja Division with the tracking number. A bit late for me but hopefully it'll be in time for other.
Yeah, the boxes are big, unfortunately there are no organisers inside the box.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
And mine have arrived too,
closely followed by the tracking emails
A huge pile of Chibi goodness, and I'll be interested to try the game as it finally turned out too
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Post by: Smacks
Mine arrived yesterday too. First impressions are: "wow that's a big box!", the box is twice as deep as some of my Fantasy Flight boxes (took me a while to get it open actually). I certainly like the big box. The understatedness and spot gloss printing is more tasteful than the commercial box IMO. It has a kind of a "special edition" vibe to it. It's also fething fantastic to be able to fit all the stuff in a single box for once! However, all the $10 extras just came loose in a bag, as did the clans, and the extra clan I picked up. I'm not sure how I feel about the omission of the other packaging, I usually like to keep that stuff in case I ever decide to sell bits. Part of me knows that it's just useless crap that would clutter up my house, and not affect the resale value at all (so I'm happy not to have to worry about it), but then part of me also feels like maybe I paid for it, and didn't get it. *grumble grumble*
I was impressed by the quality of the rulebook. It has a proper spine rather than just being a pamphlet, which makes it feel a bit nicer. The cards are flimsy crap again, no doubt to maintain consistency with SDE; I'm happy that they are all one size though, which should make organising and sleeving them easier (no stupid mini ones). The clan sheets are especially flimsy, but I should probably try and laminate those anyway. OTOH the folding player area mats are the same cardstock as the boards, so those are exceptionally good quality. So altogether I think I'm really happy with what I got. I'm definitely a fan of the bigger box. Ultimately, it's probably a more effective use of space (I wish I could fit all my Zombicide crap in one box). My only gripe is that there is no printing on the side, I'm still ruminating over whether I should stick something on there to identify it better.
Also, the trophy guy is huge and awesome! Though getting two has completely destroyed any notion I might have had that plastic has any value at all, or that bigger miniatures should be more expensive.
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Post by: Bioptic
You think two's bad? Try four, especially because getting "an extra one to use for terrain" was part of my reasoning for getting two box sets!
I now have two options - paint 1 each of gold, silver, copper and stone to use as awards ("everyone gets a trophy!"), paint all 4 stone to use as awesome yet distracting and obstructive corner terrain.
The quality looks universally high in all of the components, I just hope the resultant game is worth all of this polish. 4-player Bloodbowl (which I understand that Kaosball was very much not!) would be amazing.
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Post by: Smacks
I think I will spray one gold, and mount him on a plinth for use as a trophy; the other one I might paint properly as a massive ninja, and either use him as an ornament or as a special scenario piece. If I had a third one, then I'd probably go with the statue/terrain idea, and use it as a centrepiece. I dunno what I'd do with a fourth one. Maybe paint him properly again in an opposing team colour to the other painted one (like one blue and one red), or just keep him as a spare/sell him. Having four stone statues might look cool on the table, but as you say, they would probably be annoying to play around, and you would also miss out on the fun of having a trophy, and getting to paint a massive ninja!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I think a giant ninja is almost as important as a trophy
can the enemies combine to bring him down before it's too lake for Kagajema
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Post by: Bioptic
One thing's for sure: if, for some reason, anyone is:
1) Not a backer of this Kickstarter.
2) Likes chibi ninjas.
3) Likes miniatures.
4) But wishes miniatures were closer to the size of a large glass tumbler.
...they can probably pick up one of those trophies quite cheaply on eBay! I'd say that there have been about 3500 more of them delivered than were ordered, and a subset of the backers are going to have the bright idea of selling theirs.
In case people missed this from the update, the (80-page!) rulebook has been officially provided by Sodapop in full PDF form:
http://goo.gl/1IuQs4
It's really quite lush, and possibly worth a flick through even if you're undecided on the game itself.
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Post by: Smacks
 Bioptic wrote:I just hope the resultant game is worth all of this polish.
Unfortunately, I'm a little worried that this might be another poorly tested "build your own game" kit, from Soda Pop. It looks like they've changed the combat system since the demo videos, probably because people on the SPM boards noticed that rolling more defence dice actually made you more likely to die ( see 30 page discussion that got locked). So now you can only choose results from your own dice, and all the cards and abilities seemed to be geared towards cancellations being important. Except, cancellations aren't important, because cancellations are always 1:1, so a person rolling two additional dice will always (ALWAYS) win the combat by at least 2 dice, and be able to choose the outcome. For all the difference it makes, you might as well skip the cancellations and just have that person roll two dice and choose the outcome. I don't know if that in itself makes it a bad game, as there is still a positional element, but it certainly makes the dice mechanic a bit pointless (or at least a lot of effort for very little effect). I think it also makes heroes that roll a lot of defence dice a little overpowered, because attacking a DEF 5 hero with an ATK 4 hero isn't just a slight disadvantage, it's suicide. I think I might house rule it so the attacker always chooses (unless all his dice are cancelled). That way attacks can still backfire if you are mismatched, but it isn't guaranteed.
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Post by: Bioptic
I'd need to test this out to be certain, but while it's true that a model rolling more dice is always going to 'win' the combat (since the other model can only cancel as many dice as they roll), by no means 100% of the results on the remaining dice are going to be desirable.
In a scenario where a Chunin with ATK3 is attacking a Kunoichi with DEF2, for example, the Chunin might win the combat and have one of their dice cancelled. Assuming that the Chunin wants the Kunoichi just to be out of the way so that they can move towards an objective, of the 6 possible dice results:
- 3 of them are desirable (Void, Air, Earth).
- 1 is not very desirable (Water - would enable them to move closer to the objective, but also fails to remove the opponent and puts them close to the objective as well).
- 2 are very undesirable (Spirit, Fire).
There are good odds of the attacker not getting any of the 3 they want on 2 dice. And imagine if the defender had cancelled two dice instead, and the attacker was forced to pick one of the 2 undesirable ones.
Whether the level of tactical thinking actually warrants all this dice rolling is another matter, of course!
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Post by: Smacks
In that scenario the attacker has more dice though, so it makes sense. The scenario that bothers me is when a Chunin with ATK3 is attacking another Chunin with DEF4. The attacker rolls 3 Voids, and the defender rolls 3 Voids and and a Water. Then for some reason the result is Water and the defender survives, even though none of the Voids were cancelled. Yet if you flip it around and have the Defender roll 3 Spirits, the attacker would need to cancel all of them to survive. That seems ass-backwards to me.
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Post by: cincydooley
Ya'll should check out the dice tower review. Sounds like great components, questionable game.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The NAS dice analysis was covered pretty well on the SPM forums, also BGG, I believe. You might do better to look at the analyses there. Suffice to say that the mechanics as revised and printed are much more consistent with designer intent and player expectation.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
 cincydooley wrote:Ya'll should check out the dice tower review. Sounds like great components, questionable game.
I am not familiar with the Dice Tower, but it seems their reviews are highly questionable in and of themselves. At least, I've seen many comments to this effect.
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Post by: nkelsch
Maniac_nmt wrote: cincydooley wrote:Ya'll should check out the dice tower review. Sounds like great components, questionable game.
I am not familiar with the Dice Tower, but it seems their reviews are highly questionable in and of themselves. At least, I've seen many comments to this effect.
He is one of the more prolific reviewers on the net, and has a reputation for being fair, experienced and articulating his problems.
He also has been known to be able to make the distinction between 'this game isn't for me, but is ok' and 'the mechanics are flawed'.
You can see many of his bad reviews on this BGG list and they are pretty spot on.
http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/150574/tom-vasels-negative-game-reviews/page/2?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I was pretty hot on this game when it was annouced, but that cooled rapidly once I started digging into the game mechanics. Tom touches on all of the relevant points pretty cleanly in his review. I did not back the KS, and do not intend to buy the game. This just isn't the tactical magical ninja skirmish game that I want to play. I might just buy the Clan-specific minis in the indeterminate future, because they are gorgeous. No regrets at this time.
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Post by: cincydooley
I'd love to hear from some of y'all once you get a chance to play. I don't always agree with vassel, but he seems pretty adamant about the problems with this one.
Hope there's another side.
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Post by: Smacks
cincydooley wrote:I'd love to hear from some of y'all once you get a chance to play. I don't always agree with vassel, but he seems pretty adamant about the problems with this one. Hope there's another side.
Yeah, what he said was 100% how I felt about the game when I played it. The combat system is terrible. I'm glad he drew a parallel with Arcadia Quest, because I love that game, and the combat system there is incredibly fun. He hits the nail on the head by saying that the attacker needs to have more dice than the defender, or there is just no point attacking. You can influence the outcomes with The Moon Deck, which could theoretically allow you to turn a combat in your favour (if you were lucky). But you need to have exactly the right cards, and there are only two "reroll a spirit" cards in the whole deck, so it's not even remotely the kind of thing you can depend on, especially when the defender can also play Moon Cards. In fact, giving the player with more dice an extra chance to get the result they want, is probably what Moon Cards will be best for. If there is another side, it might be that the pointless combat system means more emphasis positional play. I can't say I've played enough games to be able to fully appreciate the positional aspect of the game, but my initial thoughts are that the ninja are too fast for position to me meaningful, and there aren't enough obstacles. Some of them can run 16 spaces which gives them ~250 possible spaces they could move to in one turn. I think it's going to be a bit pointless trying to "checkmate" something (or avoid it) positionally, when it can zip anywhere on the board in one turn. Another problem is that you can only move one ninja at a time, which makes it a bit awkward to set up positional combos, as the other player could just try to move away or attack you first. Unless, you're leading with a more powerful ninja, but then you don't need to combo, you can just attack and win. I think "assists" will probably be more opportunistic after an attack fails, so you can swoop in for an assisted backstab. Otherwise there is just no reason to hang out next to a weak enemy and let them assist attacks against you. There is also stealth, and some combat-results that reposition ninja, so there might be a strategy game there yet, but I don't have very high hopes, if there is it's well hidden. At the moment it feels more like a game where combat doesn't matter, cards don't matter, position doesn't really matter, you just run your guys out and go "pew pew", and then the biggest guy wins... /game.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
JohnHwangDD wrote:I was pretty hot on this game when it was annouced, but that cooled rapidly once I started digging into the game mechanics. Tom touches on all of the relevant points pretty cleanly in his review. I did not back the KS, and do not intend to buy the game. This just isn't the tactical magical ninja skirmish game that I want to play. I might just buy the Clan-specific minis in the indeterminate future, because they are gorgeous. No regrets at this time.
Try Ronin from Osprey. It is a fantastic Samurai game. It is meant to be more realistic, but there are rules for monsters and the like if you so desire.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Thanks for the pointer, assuming I get the models. Or maybe I'll get the models if I like the rules? 
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Post by: Alpharius
Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:I was pretty hot on this game when it was annouced, but that cooled rapidly once I started digging into the game mechanics. Tom touches on all of the relevant points pretty cleanly in his review. I did not back the KS, and do not intend to buy the game. This just isn't the tactical magical ninja skirmish game that I want to play. I might just buy the Clan-specific minis in the indeterminate future, because they are gorgeous. No regrets at this time.
Try Ronin from Osprey. It is a fantastic Samurai game. It is meant to be more realistic, but there are rules for monsters and the like if you so desire.
Are the rules for monsters and such included in the RONIN book?
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
 Alpharius wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:I was pretty hot on this game when it was annouced, but that cooled rapidly once I started digging into the game mechanics. Tom touches on all of the relevant points pretty cleanly in his review. I did not back the KS, and do not intend to buy the game. This just isn't the tactical magical ninja skirmish game that I want to play. I might just buy the Clan-specific minis in the indeterminate future, because they are gorgeous. No regrets at this time.
Try Ronin from Osprey. It is a fantastic Samurai game. It is meant to be more realistic, but there are rules for monsters and the like if you so desire.
Are the rules for monsters and such included in the RONIN book?
No, but you can download them here (for free) as well as points calculators to help you create what you want.
https://ospreypublishing.com/gaming-resources/#OWG4
The book has the rules and various buntai/army lists: Samurai/Bushi (elite army/classical Samurai), Bandit (horde army of sorts), Ikko-Ikki (fanatical horde army), Monk (fearless, and generally armed with a Naginata, but weaker armor than the top Bushi), Schools (katana, naginata, other) who are awesome in combat but have no armor, Ming Chinese, Korean. It also has swords for hire: Ninja (there is also a ninja attack scenario in the book which is fun), Wandering Monks, ronin (of course), wandering sword saints, etc.
Each model has an initiative stat, fighting skill, armor, and combat pool. You pool the combat pools of involved models, roll off for initiate in combat, and then duke it out. The combat pool is different as you can use it to try and gain initiative by rolling extra dice, you must use one to attack, you can enhance an attack, or enhance defense. As the choices are all made at the start and revealed at the same time, it can really vary the fighting. It also means a couple of ashigaru can gang up on a Samurai and win or have a Samurai carve through them depending on tactical choices and how the dice roll.
I haven't tried it yet, but En Garde! is the successor to Ronin, set in Europe from the 16th to 18th centuries. It has a few new concepts in it that may further flesh out aspects you want to capture.
You can see some game images and read up on some of our games playing it here:
http://www.wfhgs.com/samurai.html
Try warning order #38 and #41 for short bat reps.
Also, while I haven't tried it, Daisho is supposed to be a more mystical version of Ronin.
https://daishogame.wordpress.com/
Oh, and Ronin is only 5-14 models a side, roughly, depending on your Buntai. It would easily play with anything you already have or with a clan/shrine from NAS.
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Post by: Sining
I've tried NAS 3x by now and it's okay as a game. I had some fun with it although you're right that more dice generally = much better. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not since I imagine the reasoning behind it is that both parties would strike together so it stands to reason that the defender can injured the attacker.
Usually so far, my games have started with every single character going into stealth and then manuevering to try and maximise attack dice. This doesn't always work though as sometimes you end up rolling the symbol that just injures your own character and all other symbols are cancelled (a lot more common if you only have 1 dice more than the opponent)
The only real dumb thing in the rules imo is the fact that if attk dice and defense dice are equal, the attacker gets to choose from BOTH pools. Like wth. That just makes it way too good to be an attacker.
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Post by: Bioptic
That is not correct - the rules state, in bolded text, "The player may only choose a due from the dice they rolled". When both players have an equal number of dice left, the attacker chooses the result from THEIR dice.
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Post by: ArtIsGreat
I was aware of the typical Soda Pop rules issues during the KS, why the hell did I back this?! Even odds for caught up in unlocking excitement / forgot to cancel :(
Thanks for the suggestion on Ronin, reading your br now. Think I'll buy a copy of the rules and pretend it was my intention all along.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Even if the rules are bad (and I think Tom Vassal has read things wrong in some cases, and is plain missing things in others) the minis are great
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Post by: Smacks
I spent some time yesterday discussing this with people on the SPM board, and decided to give it another shot. A lot of people who like it seem to be people who enjoyed Blood Bowl, and I guess I can see that it is very heavily inspired by Blood Bowl. Obviously, Blood Bowl without a ball is going to be a bit of a weird game, and they've made the combat rules more contrived than Blood Bowl's (blocking). In Blood Bowl unless you are twice as strong, you only roll 2 dice and the stronger player picks the result (only one dice if you're equal). In NAS you both roll dice, and then the dice cancel each other out, and then the stronger player picks from what is left of their dice. I think the problem with the NAS system is that it doesn't scale evenly because the dice only have a 1/6 chance of cancelling. If two ninjas are both strength 4, then the attacker has a huge advantage because it is fantastically unlikely that 3 dice will be cancelled. So having 1 defence or 5 defence makes little difference if the attacker is stronger (or as strong). That might not be such a bad thing though as it means stronger attacks are more consistent.
I think the game is growing on me. It's pretty lousy as a skirmish game, but when you add in the medals (The NAS equivalent of the Blood Bowl ball), and the Shrines, and accept that combat is more akin to manipulating a random results table than rolling attack dice. I think there is enough of a game for it to be kinda fun.
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Post by: nkelsch
The issue with the comparisons with blood bowl is that blood bowl has a lot more tactics with movement and turnovers which an IgoUgo every figure instead of TeamGoTeamGo does.
You can have your players move sequentially to set up those assists against that black orc blocker. You can choose to have your ball handler go last to minimize risk of a turn over. The dice mechanics really lend itself to explicitly knowing odds before you roll and choosing to do actions from 'best chance' to 'worst chance'.
So much of that tactical play is lost due to the dice mechanics, extreme movement and the way you can't set much up due to the back and forth. Makes it hard to consciously set up that assist with 3 of your guys when it slowly unfolds and can be simply 'walked away' from.
If they want to be blood bowl, just be blood bowl. Compare stats, make one roll with the number of dice based upon differences and accept the results.
Attacker Double: 3 Dice, attacker pick
Attacker +1: 2 Dice, attacker pick
Equal: 1 dice
Attacker -1: 2 dice, defender pick
Attacker half: 3 Dice, defender pick
Bam, now you are blood bowl, and stuff is quicker. Maybe then assists and tactical movement might have purpose.
The real problem is... whenever something 'tries' to be like another game, and fails at it and brings nothing unique or redeeming, the response always is: lets just go play other game?
Except to have an excuse to push pretty Ninjas around a board, why play this and not simply play Blood bowl instead? Hell, We could even play Blood bowl WITH these figures with minimal work.
Kaiken=Linemen
Chunin=Blitzers
Yajiri=Throwers
Kunochis=Catchers
Oni = Ogre big guys
It is a shame to see such cool minis pretty much be part of a game which is going to be a non-starter due to universally bad reviews and SPMs bad reputation for rules.
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Post by: rayphoton
Universally bad reviews is bit of a misnomer. Ive seen quite a few people that like it and have said so. One Forum is not the whole internet and one dice tower review is not the end all be all of reviews. Also...almost no one in the states has actually received thiers yet do to it being locked in customs. Lets let it simmer a bit before declaring it a total loss or success.
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Post by: nkelsch
 rayphoton wrote:Universally bad reviews is bit of a misnomer. Ive seen quite a few people that like it and have said so. One Forum is not the whole internet and one dice tower review is not the end all be all of reviews. Also...almost no one in the states has actually received thiers yet do to it being locked in customs. Lets let it simmer a bit before declaring it a total loss or success.
Then I am glad it is not just one forum and one review. It is about 8-9 forumns, including SPMs forum itself, and at least 6 youtube reviews.
Even the ones that 'like' it admit there are flaws in the mechanics and the game is unclear and confusing but they accept it because 'beer and pretzels'.
40k is a fundamentally flawed game which is fun to play and gives you an excuse to push awesome models around a board. It is seen universially as flawed but people still 'like' it.
So 'game is flawed but I like it' is still 'game is flawed' and for people who want good rules, that is a bad review.
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Post by: rayphoton
Can I get those youtube links?
thanks
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Post by: Smacks
nkelsch wrote:an IgoUgo every figure instead of TeamGoTeamGo does ... extreme movement and the way you can't set much up due to the back and forth. Makes it hard to consciously set up that assist with 3 of your guys when it slowly unfolds and can be simply 'walked away' from.
After playing around with it a bit more, I've noticed that the order you move is quite important. If you focus on ninja who have already activated, then they can't respond. You can use air and water results to throw them back into your own team where you can gang up on them, and their buddies are too far away to help.
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Post by: rayphoton
Glad to see that the games growing on you smacks...I look forward to giving it a shot here soon
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Post by: Sarouan
I should have my own box today. Will see what shinies are inside.
About the reviews, it's the same than critics for cinema; it can vary a lot, depending from the point of view. I still believe there are a lot of people who didn't agree with the original game design of NAS and try to come back now so that everyone can see they were right.
Games are all about what we feel when playing. If you start with an already negative opinion, it's harder to have fun with something you don't agree in the beginning.
Il will try on my own with players who never heard of this before, be it on forum or youtube. We'll see if our feelings are the same of that Dice Tower guy.
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Post by: rayphoton
I like how you think sarouan. Also it'll be inter sting to see what it looks like when America gets all their copies since that just now starting to ship.
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Post by: nkelsch
 Sarouan wrote:
Il will try on my own with players who never heard of this before, be it on forum or youtube. We'll see if our feelings are the same of that Dice Tower guy.
I play a lot of my games at meetups with strangers. So I often see real time the opinion of a solid 20-30 people with a new game. Usually the quality of a game is if people want to replay it. Sadly, right now no one ever wants to play SDE which makes me sad as I have hundreds of painted SDE minis itching to be played with. I get regular requests for AQ and people seem to come out of the woodwork for many of the CMoN games.
Regardless if I like or dislike, if other people dislike it, it doesn't get played.
I plan to make the rounds with NAS, and see if it sticks.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Wow, I had no idea the SDE 2.0 ruleset was that bad.
Have you tried playing SDE with one of the Lootmeter variants, like Retro?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I actually have kind of gotten use to 2.0.
I was not a fan at first, but after really, really, REALLY, letting the rules sink in, I can run it pretty smoothly these days- at least in arcade mode. I've run the Forgotten King models enough at this point I know the abilities pretty well, and most hangups come from throwing new heroes in the mix that I haven't tried out before.
Nobody in my family wants to play against me as Consul since they know I'll go after them with no mercy whatsoever.
If they can smooth things out for Legends release, it'll be for the better I'm sure.
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Post by: nkelsch
JohnHwangDD wrote:Wow, I had no idea the SDE 2.0 ruleset was that bad.
Have you tried playing SDE with one of the Lootmeter variants, like Retro?
Here is the rub. Boardgamers don't like to homebrew or fix games. RPGers would rather just play D&D or something else using the minis. I do agree many of the variants help a lot, especially Lootmeter, but 'so what?'
SDE straddles a fence between 2 communities and fails at both.
I can hand AQ to 4 people at a boardgame meetup and walk away and they can play it and most times overwhelmingly like it.
I can hand SDE2.0 to 4 people at a boardgame meetup and walk away and either they get bored, have too many problems getting the rules right or quickly see the imbalance, game the crap out of it and say 'let's not play that again.'
I personally am a mini collector, so I like excuses to push specific minis around a board. I played 40k for 20 years. I personally can rehab games when I like the models. Others will not.
NAS has the potential of possibly straddling a 3rd area, the annual bloodbowl/dreadball people, but I suspect if they hit the same problems as they are very 'mathhaammer' oriented, they will say 'lets just play bloodbowl instead?'
Time will tell. I am totally willing to give NAS the test by handing it to 4 random people and watching their experience. Otherwise I will write a ninja D&D module.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Ahh... got it. I wasn't aware that you weren't always personally reffing the game.
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Post by: Sarouan
Got my box yesterday. Took an Elemental Master and a Ninja Master pledges, with extra ronins and samurai.
Sadly, I hurt my back when taking it back home from the post office. Shouldn't have done this by foot. 
Miniatures are really nice and the plastic used as material is good. The packaging was a bit meh - just plastic bags, nothing to really protect the miniatures. I got a few bending here and there and two miniatures were broken at the feet. Nothing that some superglue or warm water can't manage, fortunately.
About the rules, I just read the book. They are fairly simple, actually - not really a lot of pages and, unlike Super Dungeon Explore, there aren't that many cards to play. It's easy to get started with the generic ninja teams, since everything you need to know is on their game sheets.
You just have to accept the way combats are handled. There is an internal balance that can only work if you let the rolls as they are. I don't really care about that math wars, but I believe someone who never played a board game before can easily start with NAS.
Of course, the real fun is with League plays, which allow the players to really customize their own teams. Challenges (scenarios, if you want) are quite different and there are only three that are focused on injuring the enemy team - the other 5 are more played on objectives, placement and movement.
So far, I don't really agree with the negative feelings. They look a bit exaggerated to me - and I believe it's more because the people at their source just don't agree with the game design of NAS more than the game system being really bad. But then, I will need to play a few games to be totally sure.
About the target public...I'm not really sure NAS is intended for casual boardgamers. It's quite similar to Blood Bowl or Advanced Heroquest - it sures uses a board to play, but the intent is more about making a ninja team and see its evolution through the challenges. It's intended for campaigns - and everyone knows that those playing them aren't really the same who play Monopoly from time to time (please be aware I mentioned "Monopoly" as just an example; whatever the game, it is fine - I just mean that not all "boardgames" are meant for the same people).
Those saying that people will just play Blood Bowl instead of NAS because BB has "better rules", well...I will just say you don't play Ninjas trying to get a messenger out of the field or searching for crates in BB games. BB rules are designed for a Fantasy American Footbal game. NAS rules are designed for Ninja teams fighting each other in a Ninja tournament. That's totally not the same thing, and you will have troubles to adapt the rules of another game to get the same feeling.
Only the hardcore fans will really go through all the work and trouble to adapt their favorite rules for another game. Because, yes, it takes a lot of time and preparation. Most of the players will just use the original rules of the game they want to play, instead. You can see that as well for 40k, a game said to be full of flaws but still have a lot of players around the world.
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Post by: rayphoton
I agree with you that the concept that "its just like blood bowl lets go play blood bowl instead" is flawed
NAS has all kinds of different missions and different teams while blood bowl has one mission with different teams.
I also thing that alot of people are put off cause someone told everyone its a brawler. And its not. Brawling just happens to be one part of it.
I hope the community is able to spread the word about the perceived intent vs the actual intent of the game over time.
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Post by: Smacks
So I played again at the weekend. We started a little league, made proper teams, gave everyone silly names... That in itself was quite entertaining, and I think really helped to enrich the game. We played a game of capture the medal. I managed to capture one medal, my opponent didn't manage to get mine. The game was quite fun, and I think I would like to play it again. The only thing that might put me off is that it took a really long time to play. Hopefully, games will get faster when we're a bit slicker with the rules, but I don't think it's ever going to be the game that you can play three of in an evening.
I'd be happy to eat my words, with what I said about the combat system, but sadly I think it's still bit meh. Fortunately, I didn't notice it as much this game, as I was busy trying to steal medals, so it wasn't such a big deal. I think I may have gotten used to the idea of combats being deterministic now, so it doesn't annoy me as much (though I still think it's a bit of a design flaw). There are a few things still that I might need to houserule: I'd like for moon cards to play a bigger role in the game, and I'd like to for KOed ninja to spend at least one turn recovering, rather than moving straight back onto the board, but those things might just be personal preference.
It wasn't super strategic, but it was an okay little game of running around trying to bash each other, and the tackle zones Influence zones, add a bit of strategy (though Kunoichi can ignore them quite easily). It's an okay game. I would say a lot better than SDE 2.0 arcade mode, at least.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
Just got my copy today. Pieces and board look spectacular. I am, however, missing a piece. Byakko was missing from my Tora clan which is a real shame. I was really looking forward to modding Wolverine and or Tora from Mini Ninjas
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Post by: Bioptic
 Smacks wrote: There are a few things still that I might need to houserule: I'd like for moon cards to play a bigger role in the game, and I'd like to for KOed ninja to spend at least one turn recovering, rather than moving straight back onto the board, but those things might just be personal preference.
Well, they will spend a round (or more) out of the game if more than one Ninja is being injured a turn. You can only cycle injured models into your Training Ground at a rate of one a turn, unless you sacrifice your Moon Card Draw/Remove Stun action to move 2 in instead. If the Moon Cards aren't that helpful in practice, it's true that everyone might just move 2 every turn when possible.
Perhaps this rewards concerted aggression? As in, rather than picking off the odd straggler, trying to wipe out half the opposing team to clear the way to objectives?
I'd be interested to hear how 4-player games go vs. 2-player ones. They might just be too slow.
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Post by: Smacks
Bioptic wrote:Well, they will spend a round (or more) out of the game if more than one Ninja is being injured a turn. You can only cycle injured models into your Training Ground at a rate of one a turn, unless you sacrifice your Moon Card Draw/Remove Stun action to move 2 in instead. If the Moon Cards aren't that helpful in practice, it's true that everyone might just move 2 every turn when possible.
Perhaps this rewards concerted aggression? As in, rather than picking off the odd straggler, trying to wipe out half the opposing team to clear the way to objectives?
The problem I found in my games is that it isn't "first in first out", no matter how many ninja are in recovery you can always cycle the teams biggest hitters like your Chunin or your Hero, straight back in first. So there is no "clearing the way", because the biggest roadblocks pop straight back up. I think it's generally better to get ninja back than to draw a card. This is contrary to how I want the game to play, because I like the card mechanic. So I don't really like having something in the game that actively dissuades players from using cards.
Weak ninja like Kunoichi might get left in recovery for longer, but that's not such a big deal.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
So, I'm not clear what the fuss is on the dice mechanic? Granted I only read through the rules last night briefly, but I don't see the huge issues.
The dice effects don't reverse depending on who picks the die used in combat resolution. The defender may get to pick from his pool or the attacker from theirs depending on number of dice not canceled.
The odds don't change per say, just who gets to pick from the options, which is pretty 'normal'. Unless you are saying all advantage should lie with the attacker?
I don't think Defense is meant to be viewed as armor, but a mix of defensive fighting styles, skill, dodging, armor, et al. In which case I don't see to much of an issue with it.
Plus, Stealth seems really easy to pick up, for a bonus attack, and if you backstab that is a bonus, and using cheap fast kunoichi to start your plan can net the assist attack so that you can smack down on foes depending on how you play.
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Post by: nkelsch
Maniac_nmt wrote:So, I'm not clear what the fuss is on the dice mechanic? Granted I only read through the rules last night briefly, but I don't see the huge issues.
The dice effects don't reverse depending on who picks the die used in combat resolution. The defender may get to pick from his pool or the attacker from theirs depending on number of dice not canceled.
The odds don't change per say, just who gets to pick from the options, which is pretty 'normal'. Unless you are saying all advantage should lie with the attacker?
I don't think Defense is meant to be viewed as armor, but a mix of defensive fighting styles, skill, dodging, armor, et al. In which case I don't see to much of an issue with it.
Plus, Stealth seems really easy to pick up, for a bonus attack, and if you backstab that is a bonus, and using cheap fast kunoichi to start your plan can net the assist attack so that you can smack down on foes depending on how you play.
The main issue is that the 'winner' is decided before a dice is rolled.
And that the previous system which was scrapped 10 days before they went to print (and all the games cards and mechanics are still written for the previous mechanic) are based off a system where the 'winner' is not decided before the dice are rolled.
So the current system was not at all playtested and has created a mostly worthless exercise because 'I win' if I attack with more dice no matter what which is seen as a flaw in most game design circles. Not saying the old 'cancel your own dice' mechanic was better, but at least the game's rules seem to be written for it and there is at least not a 100% guarantee of 'winning' every single roll. I suspect with real playtesting, this mechanic would have undergone yet another change.
Personally, I think an exploding mechanic would help. Make 'doubles' of a symbol add +1 to the victory count or something so it isn't a guarantee of win/loss. It accomplishes what the old 'match your own dice' did without making your personal odds worse. When people see a timewasting mechanic when the outcome is basically pre-decided, and it slows down the game and doesn't add much, they know it.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
nkelsch wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote:So, I'm not clear what the fuss is on the dice mechanic? Granted I only read through the rules last night briefly, but I don't see the huge issues.
The dice effects don't reverse depending on who picks the die used in combat resolution. The defender may get to pick from his pool or the attacker from theirs depending on number of dice not canceled.
The odds don't change per say, just who gets to pick from the options, which is pretty 'normal'. Unless you are saying all advantage should lie with the attacker?
I don't think Defense is meant to be viewed as armor, but a mix of defensive fighting styles, skill, dodging, armor, et al. In which case I don't see to much of an issue with it.
Plus, Stealth seems really easy to pick up, for a bonus attack, and if you backstab that is a bonus, and using cheap fast kunoichi to start your plan can net the assist attack so that you can smack down on foes depending on how you play.
The main issue is that the 'winner' is decided before a dice is rolled.
And that the previous system which was scrapped 10 days before they went to print (and all the games cards and mechanics are still written for the previous mechanic) are based off a system where the 'winner' is not decided before the dice are rolled.
So the current system was not at all playtested and has created a mostly worthless exercise because 'I win' if I attack with more dice no matter what which is seen as a flaw in most game design circles. Not saying the old 'cancel your own dice' mechanic was better, but at least the game's rules seem to be written for it and there is at least not a 100% guarantee of 'winning' every single roll. I suspect with real playtesting, this mechanic would have undergone yet another change.
Personally, I think an exploding mechanic would help. Make 'doubles' of a symbol add +1 to the victory count or something so it isn't a guarantee of win/loss. It accomplishes what the old 'match your own dice' did without making your personal odds worse. When people see a timewasting mechanic when the outcome is basically pre-decided, and it slows down the game and doesn't add much, they know it.
You don't win though. You get to choose, and your choice could still be made for you. You may be able to choose between 'kill me' or 'kill him', but it doesn't reverse dice effects. Void does the same thing, regardless of who picks it, the effects aren't determined by the attacker picking it or the defender picking it.
I could see having dice of your element counting double, otherwise how often do you need to worry about 'your element'.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Getting to choose is a "win", better than letting your opponent choose.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
Yes, but it isn't as bleak as it sounds.
Earth - defender stunned
Fire - All models in attackers zone are stunned
Spirit - Attacker Injured
Void - Defender Injured
Water - move attacker up to three spaces then put defender in it's influence zone
So, really only Spirit is really bad for the attacker. Water could be, but isn't outright terrible. The affects don't change depending on who picks. If you are only 1 die difference, it may not even come into play. Unless you are down by two, what is the major beef?
It also means attacking isn't an insta win? Charging doesn't insta win in 40k, Fantasy, Warmaster, Ronin, Saga, or any other game I've played.
With +1 for stealth, +1 for back stab, even a 4 defense model is within reach of a 2 attack character. Throw in an assist and even 5 def is in reach. You can use a fast model and lock up with a defender, then move a backstab model in for another +1.
The crying seems more on 'man, I should just win if I go first or it should always be in my favor' when that isn't the case in a lot of games or the inspiration material. It does also mean you do need a little tactical positioning and movement to tackle the beefy defense guy (and there are not that many beefy defense guys in the game, most being a 2 or 3 defense).
I would agree that element affiliation is not really used to its full potential, but when even my meager 2 attack model can get a +2 and slam into your expensive 4 defense model at even odds, come on... Mountain out of a mole hill.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Consider d20 combat, roughly:
1 = Crit Fail (GM's discretion...)
2-X = miss
X-19 = hit!
20 = Crit Hit (double damage)
Spirit is just a Crit Fail, same as "Gets Hot!". WIth NAS using 6 faced-dice, a natural conversion looks like this:
1 = Crit Fail
2-5 = push / stun / effects
6 = Crit Hit
No biggie.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
JohnHwangDD wrote:Consider d20 combat, roughly:
1 = Crit Fail ( GM's discretion...)
2-X = miss
X-19 = hit!
20 = Crit Hit (double damage)
Spirit is just a Crit Fail, same as "Gets Hot!". WIth NAS using 6 faced-dice, a natural conversion looks like this:
1 = Crit Fail
2-5 = push / stun / effects
6 = Crit Hit
No biggie.
Yes, but that is a bad analogy. It isn't crit fail, it is the other guy hit you and you missed, vs you hit him and he missed, vs some other result. Defenders don't sit passively while you hit them waiting for their turn to hit back. Combat is a fluid/dynamic thing. The dice rolling is an attempt to represent this.
There are only 10 models in the rule book with a defense of 4 or higher and only, with only 2 or 3 with a 5 defense. There are only 5 models with a 1 attack, of which 3 are ranged shooters who get a bonus at range that takes them to at least 2 if not 3 attack.
Meaning there are only 2 models who are at a disadvantage vs these model 4 def figures. Both are runners, not meant to be front line fighters. They would, however, be good ways to also net the assist attack...
So, providing you don't run in with no thought or planning, odds are still with the attacker in the game, which seems to be what folks want and are upset about.
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Post by: nkelsch
But when you are rolling 4 dice, the chances of getting 4 'crit fails' is virtually zero. Even with the cancelling mechanic, being able to choose means 'you have won'.
Unlike Bloodbowl where there is only one roll for both players results, the person defending is rolling for no real reason. Sure you can maybe cancel a few dice out, but the impact to the odds by doing so is negligible to the point that it is simply a waste of effort.
If the defender rolling serves virtually no purpose, why not simply make a comparison of stats like risk, and have a single roll?
Attacker half of defender = Roll 3 dice, Defender chooses
Attacker less than defender = Roll 2 dice, defender chooses
Equal stat = Roll 1 die, accept result
Attacker greater than defender = Roll 2 Dice, Attack chooses
Attacker Double defender = Roll 3 Dice, Attacker chooses
Then the chances of attacking and getting double void or a single dice void is actually possible to a statistical level where it needs to be considered. The large number of dice being rolled and the weakness of the cancellation mechanic makes an attacker being forced to pick void so remote it is not even a consideration outside that one time you saw someone maybe once roll trip-void.
It is a timewaster mechanic which doesn't really enhance the game and barley impacts the outcome.
I would rather have a super simple mechanic like Risk, or have an exploding mechanic that allows 'double symbols' to do something to offset the guaranteed finality of combat. Like Double Affinity as a defender allows you to remove an attackers dice of your choice or something. Anything to actually make rolling 7-9 dice and matching the symbols not a giant waste of time.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Spirit is just a Crit Fail, same as "Gets Hot!". WIth NAS using 6 faced-dice, a natural conversion looks like this: 1 = Crit Fail 2-5 = push / stun / effects 6 = Crit Hit
Yes, but that is a bad analogy. It isn't crit fail,
No, the analogy holds. In NAS, a crit fail == "take a wound with fluff that the defender hit you". If it were combat, then *both* players would be rolling Attack dice for damage / effect.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
JohnHwangDD wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:
Spirit is just a Crit Fail, same as "Gets Hot!". WIth NAS using 6 faced-dice, a natural conversion looks like this:
1 = Crit Fail
2-5 = push / stun / effects
6 = Crit Hit
Yes, but that is a bad analogy. It isn't crit fail,
No, the analogy holds. In NAS, a crit fail == "take a wound with fluff that the defender hit you".
If it were combat, then *both* players would be rolling Attack dice for damage / effect.
It is combat. It is just simplified into a single result. It isn't a crit fail or crit hit, it's not meant to replicate a Nintendo rpg (or doesn't seem like it to me) which has one guy go while the other guy stands there and takes the hit, then waits to hit back. It's both guys fighting. Otherwise, why bother rolling to cancel or changing out who moves pieces. Both players are rolling dice to determine effect. The guy who has less canceled chooses which effect to come into play, and it could be 'argh you got me' because that is the only option left.
It's a step up from Heroclix, and more like a standard table top where both guys fight. Remember, it's defense not Armor Class you are rolling against. That is, their ability to defend themselves vs attack, which implies fighting back, or does to me anyways.
Plus, as I said, pretty much everyone has better or equal attack values to vs defenders. It may take a little positional play, but why shouldn't it? Why should the guy with a knife not need to work to take on a tank?
At any rate, I'm just trying to provide an alternative perspective to it. I'll be playing it this week, but the rules don't make me go 'yeah, that is wrong'.
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Post by: nkelsch
Maniac_nmt wrote:
At any rate, I'm just trying to provide an alternative perspective to it. I'll be playing it this week, but the rules don't make me go 'yeah, that is wrong'.
But it is all just odds... Why pointlessly add steps or mechanics which have minimal impact on the results when you can grossly simply the rolling and have statistically similar results? There is virtually zero chance anyone will 'void Yahtzee' themselves, and the dice cancel mechanic has virtually no meaningful chance at increasing those odds to a point where it actually matters. So why not simply remove the dice matching mechanic and have the attacker do a single roll and adjust the number of dice accordingly to offset the dice mechanic?
And people who are trying to wave the jedi hand and say everything is ok misses out on the major reason the dice matching mechanic even existed...
*ORIGINALLY YOU COULD MATCH AND ELIMINATE YOUR OWN DICE*. That means your 4 Dice attack could attack someone with 3 Dice, and you eliminate 2 of your own dice via a match and suddenly your attacking with 2 dice vs his 3. Seee? Now you have a valid reason why the defender even has a reason to roll dice because the game expected a mechanic where the defender could walk away with a win. The issue became, more attack dice = worse odds and a poorly thought out mechanic was scrapped, for a statistically pointless version of the mechanic. It isn't like this new mechanic was actually playtested or had the game written to make it deep and tactical. It is a half-baked reaction to the grossly negative reviews of the playtest rules and someone being like 'but I like my symbols and matching is fun... we have to find a way to keep it!'
The whole exercise for matching dice only made sense during the old version of the rules because there was mechanics to make the defender's rolls relevant and meaningful. Now they are like a 1% adjustment to an almost guaranteed success which slows down and complicates the game.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:Spirit is just a Crit Fail, same as "Gets Hot!". WIth NAS using 6 faced-dice, a natural conversion looks like this:
1 = Crit Fail
Yes, but that is a bad analogy. It isn't crit fail,
No, the analogy holds. In NAS, a crit fail == "take a wound with fluff that the defender hit you".
If it were combat, then *both* players would be rolling Attack dice for damage / effect.
It is combat. It is just simplified into a single result.
Sure, in NAS; however, a more natural, simpler, clearer way of getting a single result is by rolling a single d6. That is all that I'm saying. There is a better and more obvious way of doing this that doesn't require this whole Rube Goldberg mechanic of rolling lots of dice to throw a chunk of them away. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood Bowl is coming!
This is kinda squeezing the window that NAS had as a Dreadball-like replacement for Blood Bowl.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
nkelsch wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote:
At any rate, I'm just trying to provide an alternative perspective to it. I'll be playing it this week, but the rules don't make me go 'yeah, that is wrong'.
But it is all just odds... Why pointlessly add steps or mechanics which have minimal impact on the results when you can grossly simply the rolling and have statistically similar results? There is virtually zero chance anyone will 'void Yahtzee' themselves, and the dice cancel mechanic has virtually no meaningful chance at increasing those odds to a point where it actually matters. So why not simply remove the dice matching mechanic and have the attacker do a single roll and adjust the number of dice accordingly to offset the dice mechanic?
And people who are trying to wave the jedi hand and say everything is ok misses out on the major reason the dice matching mechanic even existed...
*ORIGINALLY YOU COULD MATCH AND ELIMINATE YOUR OWN DICE*. That means your 4 Dice attack could attack someone with 3 Dice, and you eliminate 2 of your own dice via a match and suddenly your attacking with 2 dice vs his 3. Seee? Now you have a valid reason why the defender even has a reason to roll dice because the game expected a mechanic where the defender could walk away with a win. The issue became, more attack dice = worse odds and a poorly thought out mechanic was scrapped, for a statistically pointless version of the mechanic. It isn't like this new mechanic was actually playtested or had the game written to make it deep and tactical. It is a half-baked reaction to the grossly negative reviews of the playtest rules and someone being like 'but I like my symbols and matching is fun... we have to find a way to keep it!'
The whole exercise for matching dice only made sense during the old version of the rules because there was mechanics to make the defender's rolls relevant and meaningful. Now they are like a 1% adjustment to an almost guaranteed success which slows down and complicates the game.
The odds a given symbol will come up are 1-(5/6)^n for a given player. It could be argued that defenders have no 'direct' way to influence that, which is somewhat true (positioning, as an example, could mess up the attacker's ability to generate extra dice, but the physical model itself often has no way to directly bump defense ala stealth or backstab), but the odds can be influenced by an attacker due to their ability to generate more dice depending on their actions. The odds you get two of the same in your own roll are of course worse. The odds of rolling 'yatzee' are abysmal to begin with, so being able to cancel that is semi irrelevant (i.e. you roll a slew of one or the other ko's someone, is low, and the does it matter what the cancelation odds are to beat that rarity?).
As to why symbols vs a D6, that has nothing to do with odds and everything to do with marketing. Why does X-wing use custom dice, why does Saga, why does any other game? You could easily use the generic dice and do the same (Saga even tells you the conversions for D6s), but making a custom sweet of dice means you lock up your market.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Re: symbols, they symbols aren't obvious (i.e. Chinese characters), and the opposite matching adds more memorization. It's messy..
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Post by: nkelsch
Maniac_nmt wrote:nkelsch wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote:
At any rate, I'm just trying to provide an alternative perspective to it. I'll be playing it this week, but the rules don't make me go 'yeah, that is wrong'.
But it is all just odds... Why pointlessly add steps or mechanics which have minimal impact on the results when you can grossly simply the rolling and have statistically similar results? There is virtually zero chance anyone will 'void Yahtzee' themselves, and the dice cancel mechanic has virtually no meaningful chance at increasing those odds to a point where it actually matters. So why not simply remove the dice matching mechanic and have the attacker do a single roll and adjust the number of dice accordingly to offset the dice mechanic?
And people who are trying to wave the jedi hand and say everything is ok misses out on the major reason the dice matching mechanic even existed...
*ORIGINALLY YOU COULD MATCH AND ELIMINATE YOUR OWN DICE*. That means your 4 Dice attack could attack someone with 3 Dice, and you eliminate 2 of your own dice via a match and suddenly your attacking with 2 dice vs his 3. Seee? Now you have a valid reason why the defender even has a reason to roll dice because the game expected a mechanic where the defender could walk away with a win. The issue became, more attack dice = worse odds and a poorly thought out mechanic was scrapped, for a statistically pointless version of the mechanic. It isn't like this new mechanic was actually playtested or had the game written to make it deep and tactical. It is a half-baked reaction to the grossly negative reviews of the playtest rules and someone being like 'but I like my symbols and matching is fun... we have to find a way to keep it!'
The whole exercise for matching dice only made sense during the old version of the rules because there was mechanics to make the defender's rolls relevant and meaningful. Now they are like a 1% adjustment to an almost guaranteed success which slows down and complicates the game.
The odds a given symbol will come up are 1-(5/6)^n for a given player. It could be argued that defenders have no 'direct' way to influence that, which is somewhat true (positioning, as an example, could mess up the attacker's ability to generate extra dice, but the physical model itself often has no way to directly bump defense ala stealth or backstab), but the odds can be influenced by an attacker due to their ability to generate more dice depending on their actions. The odds you get two of the same in your own roll are of course worse. The odds of rolling 'yatzee' are abysmal to begin with, so being able to cancel that is semi irrelevant (i.e. you roll a slew of one or the other ko's someone, is low, and the does it matter what the cancelation odds are to beat that rarity?).
As to why symbols vs a D6, that has nothing to do with odds and everything to do with marketing. Why does X-wing use custom dice, why does Saga, why does any other game? You could easily use the generic dice and do the same (Saga even tells you the conversions for D6s), but making a custom sweet of dice means you lock up your market.
You totally are missing the point. The original game and the odds were based around cancelling your own dice, which drastically changes the dyanmic and the odds. Rolling doubles when attacking with 5 dice is much easier, and removing those 2 dice have drastically changed the chance of you succeeding and can possibly make you lose the ability to choose. Without such a mechanic, the eliminating opponents dice has a zero chance to change the outcome of who chooses and has minimal chance to force multiple voids.
Again... Since the eliminate your own dice makes the outcome pre-decided before dice are rolled, and the cancelling mechanic barley impacts the ability to force a bad result on the attacker, why bother with it?
You are defending a system which is pointless in its execution, wastes time, not playtested at all by the creator and a majority of the rules are written for a mechanic which was removed days before printing. All we are saying is since every little dance a game makes you do is just to provide an outcome based upon odds. If I want your success to be 50%/50% I could make you flip a coin. I could make you roll a 4+ on a D6. I can make you roll a 2,6,7,8, or 12 on 2d6. All have the same odds of 50% success but the last one is pointlessly complicated for no real reason. That is what is happening with NAS now that the match your own dice mechanic was removed. With out matching your own dice potentially impacting the 'who chooses' outcome, the matching opponents dice has no real purpose and due to the attacker always choosing in most situations, eliminating dice to force voids is statistically insignificant to a point of not even needing to exist.
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Post by: Mezmaron
Anybody else get two of the large golden-colored statues? I was expecting just one. Mez
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
 Mezmaron wrote:Anybody else get two of the large golden-colored statues? I was expecting just one. Mez
One of the stretch goals unlocked a second.
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Post by: Ctaylor
Maniac_nmt wrote: Mezmaron wrote:Anybody else get two of the large golden-colored statues? I was expecting just one. Mez
One of the stretch goals unlocked a second.
There was one stretch goal at $300k to unlock one statue. It did say that ninja master and elemental master would each get one, but the second statue for both pledges was a surprise. SPM hasn't said anything about it, afaik.
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Post by: Sarouan
Got two boxes, thus 4 big golden ninja trophies. Well, they're free, after all. I guess I will paint them in gold, silver, bronze and copper so that I can give rewards to four players in my leagues.
But yeah, it's not really that useful.
About the dice mechanic, it's mainly making a mountain out of a mouse. When you actually learn the game, roll the dice and do that a few times, it comes naturally. If you were playing Blood Bowl and had to remember the three rolls to see if you managed to block then manage to pass the armor then determine the result of the injury, all with different and/or tables...well, you can handle a single opposed roll with countering symbols.
You just use the reference sheet for your first games, and then you will quickly grasp it.
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