Ninja All-Stars™ features fully assembled, high quality miniatures and an exciting community driving, league style of gameplay. Build a team of elite ninja and compete for honor and glory against rival clans.
Build a team of elite ninja and compete for honor and glory against rival clans. Games pit 2 - 4 players against one another in a series of challenges to earn the favor of the Moon Princess. Between challenges, ninja earn experience to gain new abilities and combat aptitudes. As leader of your clan, you guide the growth of your team, including hiring powerful Heroes and Ronin to aid your cause.
John Cadice of ND wrote:Ninja All-Stars is a brand new world and game for Ninja Division and Soda Pop Miniatures. Players take on the roll of one of six ninja clans, all vying for the honor of winning the great Tournament of the Moon. Using all the tricks at your disposal, your ninja team will expand, bring on legendary heroes, and learn new skills as they compete in the various arenas set for each event. Players will face off with their teams against one another in one-off games or in community league style play, with persistent characters, rewards, and upgrades for your most experienced ninja.
There are six primary clans on Kagejima, each has a special connection with the land and the sacred elements of creation.
Clan Ika - These hardy warriors are in touch with the elements of water, flexible, skilled, and swift as their kami, the giant squid.
Clan Tora – Industrious warriors and alchemists, the Tora are most in touch with the elements of fire, ferocious and swift in battle as their kami, the tiger.
Clan Tanchyo – Woodland communities that live high in the trees, watching the hidden paths with cheeks pressed to fletched arrows, Tanchyo ninja are masters of the element of wind, and are wise and swift like their kami, the crane.
Clan Kitsune – Bearing the mark of their revered kami, a precocious little forest spirit, the Kitsune are most in touch with the element of spirit, being magical creatures themselves, and masters of medicines and poisons.
Clan Yamazaru – In the wandering stone paths, the adherents of the mountain clans are deep in touch with the element of earth, and are as tough and smart as their kami, the sage-like mountain monkeys.
Clan Ijin – Sprouting fierce horns and tusks, like their Ogre-like kami, the Ijin are quarrelsome and strong. The Ijin use dark magic, tapping the element of Void that has already caused them to take on their monstrous visage.
John Cadice of ND wrote:All clans have access to several types of ninja to hire for their team
Chunin (Team Leaders) are the rising stars in their clans, masters of the elemental secrets of their elders, and peerless warriors in combat. Maybe someday they will be as vaunted as some of the better known heroes who have made names for themselves.
Kaiken (The Daggers) are your basic ninja, but they are anything but basic. Tough, fast, and fighty, the Kaiken fulfill most of your combat rolls, and as they gain experience they can specialize in skills unique to their clan.
Yajiri (The Arrowheads) specialize in ranged combat, filling the air with whisper silent arrows, darts, and even the smoke and thunder of well aimed musket balls.
Madoushi (Sorcerers) use the elements to support their clansmen and attack their opponents with magic and alchemy.
Kunoichi (Lady Ninja) though being a clan ninja is not exclusive to boys, being a Kunoichi is exclusively for the ladies. These spry ninja train extensively to use their agility and speed to secure objectives, courier important artifacts and messages, and pepper enemies with shuriken and kunai.
There are powerful and more mystical creatures and wandering heroes that help the the various clans, but revelations on these powerful characters and kami will need to remain secret for now.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I was really hoping they didn't go for chibi anime ninjas. Disappointed!
I was super hoping they did. Soda Pop does the best Chibi in the market, and it allows for SDE/Ninja crossover!
BrookM wrote:Is CMoN attached to this?
Nope - they split ways. This is Soda Pop/Ninja Division only. And I think the SDE:FK has been the best-run Kickstarter I've ever backed too. Weekly updates hell or highwater, previews and pictures of everything (absolutely everything, I think) and only a few months behind. (Which is like 6 months early by Kickstarter standards).
CMoN and SPM split last year, and SPM launched SDE Forgotten King immediately afterward. Going forward, there will be no CMoN labeling on any SPM product - that's a lot of why SPM is going to a new edition of SDE, with a new base box and all new printed materials.
For better or worse, these Ninja follow the "Naruto" school of Ninja camouflage! In that cover image, one of them is wearing a golden helmet and blue cloak, one of them is wearing a purple robe and has bright red skin, and another is wearing a bikini top and not much else.
On a related note, I am really, really not a fan of heavily sexualising imagery intended to make characters look more childlike. I can only assume that Sodapop is making a fair amount of money with this tactic, but it seriously rubs me the wrong way.
Bioptic wrote: On a related note, I am really, really not a fan of heavily sexualising imagery intended to make characters look more childlike.
I don't see this at all. They are "chibi" superdeformed, but not "childlike".
There was a big hullaballoo about this on the SDEKS.
Personally I didn't see anything as being "heavily sexualised", but even so, I see Chibi as more of an art style than actually trying to depict children.
Bioptic wrote: For better or worse, these Ninja follow the "Naruto" school of Ninja camouflage! In that cover image, one of them is wearing a golden helmet and blue cloak, one of them is wearing a purple robe and has bright red skin, and another is wearing a bikini top and not much else.
On a related note, I am really, really not a fan of heavily sexualising imagery intended to make characters look more childlike. I can only assume that Sodapop is making a fair amount of money with this tactic, but it seriously rubs me the wrong way.
Agree... One of the major problems with Sodapop is their hyper-sexualization portrayal of women. They are the poster child for 'what is wrong with gamers' in the tabletop arena. Of course, they know their audience, but it does give me pause when playing with kids because some of their models are pointlessly unreasonable.
I am hoping we will see female ninja who are not basically designed to be metal bikini eye candy. Since lower-end rank and file ninja do exist, It would make sense that you can have men and women as rank and file. I can see some kunochi having sexual looks, but there is no need for 100% of the female ninja to be unarmed, poorly clothed boob models for no reason.
I can see why 3rd parties not aware of Japanese animation may assume these are simply models of children... which raises the question 'why does this child have giant breasts and wearing a bikini.'
Chibi (ちび or チビ?) is a Japanese slang word meaning "short person" or "small child".
While it is ok sometimes, to exclusively make female models which are sexualized for no reason to appease to male gamers shows it is part of the problem. I was playing AQ with a bunch of kids, and DIVA was this one girl's favorite hero. I asked her why and her response was "All the other ones don't have armor, Diva looks like she can fight and is strong! I want to be strong!" Of the 13 female AQ heroes, all but 4 are sporting major cleavage. Of the 10 TFK female heroes, all but 2 are sporting major cleavage.
Don't get me started on "where are the non-white heroes?" questions...
Naruto is basically the source material for NAS, and they have a wide array of races and gender bodytypes. I can only hope for some diversity and non-sexist designs from future CHIBI campaigns. I think some female ninjas which are not basically busty sexpots without armor would be a welcome bonus to this campaign. I know discussing this gets you lynched on the sodapop boards because men think you want to take their bewbs away but as someone who plays games with kids, and chibi games seem to have a lot of appeal to kids compared to more grimdark fantasy designs, it would be nice to have more subdued and equal female models for variety for those kids.
They fail 6 out of the 8 things... and 2 things they don't do, can't be done in tabletop games.
*Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")
*"Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)
*Have female characters of various body types
*Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.
*Include more female characters of color.
*Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies
Bioptic wrote: On a related note, I am really, really not a fan of heavily sexualising imagery intended to make characters look more childlike.
A lot of this is lost in translation. Chibi is a Japanese slang word meaning "short person" or "small child". I wouldn't get too hung up on the 'small child' part however, the actual characters for Chibi ちび or チビ translates into "runt" if I recall. It has a broad spectrum of meanings from short person to a small child, as such it being slang.
nkelsch wrote: I am hoping we will see female ninja who are not basically designed to be metal bikini eye candy. Since lower-end rank and file ninja do exist, It would make sense that you can have men and women as rank and file. I can see some kunochi having sexual looks, but there is no need for 100% of the female ninja to be unarmed, poorly clothed boob models for no reason.
Keep in mind that just because artwork or something looks like a metal bikini, doesn't mean it needs to be painted that way especially when it comes to NInja. There is no reason why the blow examples have to be painted as bikinis and couldn't simply be black, gray or some other colored tights or clothing. It is the same thing as Infinity models, especially the Bootleg versions. Some painters will paint parts as flesh, but it doesn't have to be flesh... that is up to the painters and their individual styles.
Personally I tend to have a mix. There are some miniatures that I'll paint that way while others I will usually have it be a mesh, cloth, tights or some other material.
Bioptic wrote: On a related note, I am really, really not a fan of heavily sexualising imagery intended to make characters look more childlike.
A lot of this is lost in translation. Chibi is a Japanese slang word meaning "short person" or "small child". I wouldn't get too hung up on the 'small child' part however, the actual characters for Chibi ちび or チビ translates into "runt" if I recall. It has a broad spectrum of meanings from short person to a small child, as such it being slang.
nkelsch wrote: I am hoping we will see female ninja who are not basically designed to be metal bikini eye candy. Since lower-end rank and file ninja do exist, It would make sense that you can have men and women as rank and file. I can see some kunochi having sexual looks, but there is no need for 100% of the female ninja to be unarmed, poorly clothed boob models for no reason.
Keep in mind that just because artwork or something looks like a metal bikini, doesn't mean it needs to be painted that way especially when it comes to NInja. There is no reason why the blow examples have to be painted as bikinis and couldn't simply be black, gray or some other colored tights or clothing. It is the same thing as Infinity models, especially the Bootleg versions. Some painters will paint parts as flesh, but it doesn't have to be flesh... that is up to the painters and their individual styles.
Personally I tend to have a mix. There are some miniatures that I'll paint that way while others I will usually have it be a mesh, cloth, tights or some other material.
I agree... I paint catsuits on some of the more naked models. You still have the questions of why do children have massive boobs? If they are not children, why are all the boobs large opposed to simply feminine? Why are there only one body type or clothing design for females? When one female finally has armor, why does it have boob armor, and not regular armor?
These are actual questions asked by both kids and adults who are new to tabletop gaming or are observing games played. It would be nice to have some variety in model designs and not simply have to paint every model wearing skin-clothes.
Luckily 3rd parties have made enough reasonable female models along with animal humanoids, mouselings and ponies, that my hero pool is so large, that everyone can pretty much find a hero they identify with and the boobs mcgee, no armor females are a subset of models opposed to virtually 100% of the available female models.
nkelsch wrote: I agree... I paint catsuits on some of the more naked models. You still have the questions of why do children have massive boobs? If they are not children, why are all the boobs large opposed to simply feminine? Why are there only one body type or clothing design for females? When one female finally has armor, why does it have boob armor, and not regular armor?
These are actual questions asked by both kids and adults who are new to tabletop gaming or are observing games played. It would be nice to have some variety in model designs and not simply have to paint every model wearing skin-clothes.
The questions on boob armor vs regular armor doesn't usually come from some bystander, those will come from gamers and people who want to have a discussion typically about over sexualization. All the questions focused on boobs also seem to come from gamers, because it isn't miniatures gamers who would have other scale issues with more questions (since there are more men miniatures than female) like: Why do they have such large heads? Why are their arms so stubby and short? Why are their legs so stubby and short? How come they don't have waists or a mid-body section? None of which even matches if someone was thinking the miniatures were "children". To which the reply is, "They are Super Deformed, it is a different art style." To everyone else that only seems to see boobs and skin, I tend to refer here an article on female portrayals in video games.
I guess in short that I disagree... I just don't see how Chibi or Super Deformed are considered children. I get that there are probably some people who could think that. Just like there is a lot of people who simply relate anime as cartoons, even though to a good portion of people and audiences they are completely different.
I guess in short that I disagree... I just don't see how Chibi or Super Deformed are considered children. I get that there are probably some people who could think that. Just like there is a lot of people who simply relate anime as cartoons, even though to a good portion of people and audiences they are completely different.
Because the term means children, it is cartoony which is universally seen as for children, it is a 'game' which is for children, and they look like smaller versions of adults... which is what children are.
That article you linked is way off base... the body shaming comes into play when no one looks like the heroes they are supposed to be playing as. People don't want to pointlessly cover up all heroes, they want heroes to look like real people... which means 9/10 of them are not giant-breasted amazonians in bikinis. The response of "I like sexy big boobs, you have your token covered up skinny girl, let is get back to our games" is basically her point.
In the Chibi realm, and traditionally in chibi art, males and females usually have similar bodies and only explicit features are exaggerated. Of all the TFK designs, the only character who would make a good chibi with gratutous oversized boobs is maurieClaude. Just like in a Naurto Chibi art, the only female character who would have oversized boobs is tsunade. Doesn't mean they need to go away or it is sex shaming, it is most females, especially chibi ones have no reason to have oversized boobs, both in the artform which is chibi but also in the character design, it adds nothing to the character.
nkelsch wrote: Because the term means children, it is cartoony which is universally seen as for children, it is a 'game' which is for children, and they look like smaller versions of adults... which is what children are.
Except it doesn't at least not in the sense that westernized culture would view it. ち (chi) び (bi) translates as runt, height is low (short stature). For reference ja.wikipedia link for ちび. Cartoons stopped being seen universal for children years ago with Anime... some of the most popular animated, CGI, etc movies of today are popular not because they are cartoony and for children. The Chibi realm is actually pretty vast from Chibi to Super Deformed and becoming a popular style to what is known as Half-Age. It is in reference to the art style, not in reference to "looks like a child".
I'm not sure why Naruto is the end all of Chibi... but since we're using that an example. The majority of the characters in Naruto are children, that is why they would typically not be drawn that way. Once we get to Shippuden that is a different story as they are young adults at that point in terms of age and drawing style. That aside though here are quite a few well endowed female characters other than Tsunade: Naruto sexy-jistu, Temari, Ino, Konan, Pakura, Hotaru, Hinata, Anko, Samui, and Mei to name a few. With Naruto there is a large selection of characters that represent all sizes but that is Naruto and we're talking Chibi/Superdeformed and this
nkelsch wrote: Doesn't mean they need to go away or it is sex shaming, it is most females, especially chibi ones have no reason to have oversized boobs, both in the artform which is chibi but also in the character design, it adds nothing to the character.
It is an art style, that is how it is done and technically being Chibi adds nothing to the character itself. ND have always been overstylized and I don't see that changing. I am not sure if they'll have a broad spectrum but given the examples so far, it seems the actual artwork is fairly representative of the character and even the ones I linked aren't huge, even by Tsunade's standards.
Of course not! For one, unlike his female counterpart, he doesn't have his legs splayed to show his underwear on the box art. He is a Realistic Demon Ninja in a Realistic Demon Ninja pose.
Alright, enough of that - it's just that they're mostly showing off the character designs first, without much else to go on. And has been commented, the female characters are all largely "of a type".
How do people feel about the movement grid - that there isn't one, just a dot matrix to show off a more "natural-looking board"? I think placing models directly over the dots might be a big strange, as there's so much fudging, and a slight knock makes it rather hard to remember the position a model was originally in. The tiny snippets of the boards seen so far do look lush though.
Bioptic wrote: How do people feel about the movement grid - that there isn't one, just a dot matrix to show off a more "natural-looking board"? I think placing models directly over the dots might be a big strange, as there's so much fudging, and a slight knock makes it rather hard to remember the position a model was originally in. The tiny snippets of the boards seen so far do look lush though.
The traditional way to do dots is have dots at all 4 corners of a square, rather than to place the model over the dot. But maybe there's a fudge factor over where the model needs to be for LOS / sub-positioning based on the actual models?
I do like the look of the boards this way - the artwork takes priority over the grid.
Bioptic wrote: How do people feel about the movement grid - that there isn't one, just a dot matrix to show off a more "natural-looking board"? I think placing models directly over the dots might be a big strange, as there's so much fudging, and a slight knock makes it rather hard to remember the position a model was originally in. The tiny snippets of the boards seen so far do look lush though.
I am not sure how I feel about the dot grid yet. I wouldn't be too worried about a slight move, that would happen in squares and the circle is still covering the majority of the dot unless you really bumped the table hard. It is different, so it may take some getting used too. It technically isn't any different than a zone type movement, just placing a miniature on the dot.... but I'm also along the lines, I don't see an issue with square based board (if it isn't broke, why change it?).
Those who have trouble with The SD style, please stay away from Japan and especcially places like Akihabara, Nakano sun plaza and Denden town. It will drive the social Justice warriors nuts.
This is not meant as being sexy but more as being cute, i have never hear any stories about Otaku getting aroused by chibi characters (lollicon on the other hand ).
My god people, this is why we can't have nice things. The KS hasn't even started yet and the thread is full of ridiculous negativity.
Dark Severance wrote:
Bioptic wrote: How do people feel about the movement grid - that there isn't one, just a dot matrix to show off a more "natural-looking board"? I think placing models directly over the dots might be a big strange, as there's so much fudging, and a slight knock makes it rather hard to remember the position a model was originally in. The tiny snippets of the boards seen so far do look lush though.
I am not sure how I feel about the dot grid yet. I wouldn't be too worried about a slight move, that would happen in squares and the circle is still covering the majority of the dot unless you really bumped the table hard. It is different, so it may take some getting used too. It technically isn't any different than a zone type movement, just placing a miniature on the dot.... but I'm also along the lines, I don't see an issue with square based board (if it isn't broke, why change it?).
I wasn't that bothered by lines on the play tiles either. I don't think the dots will be an issue though - the only thing I can think of is that they might make things more difficult for the people who like to create the really neat 3d boards.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that we'll be seeing SDE cards for some of these guys. At least the heroes.
cincydooley wrote: But is there a minis only pledge....I sure darn rootin tootin hope so!!!
That's what I'm pledging for. Though I will have to get the game-components addon to go with my minies. I hope they bundle them together at some point.
Azazelx wrote: I wonder if they will include SDE cards to use these figures are heroes and villains?
This has not been confirmed, but rest assured, you are not the only person asking (and hoping) for SDE crossover cards to play NAS Ninjas as SDE Heroes.
Azazelx wrote: I wonder if they will include SDE cards to use these figures are heroes and villains?
This has not been confirmed, but rest assured, you are not the only person asking (and hoping) for SDE crossover cards to play NAS Ninjas as SDE Heroes.
This is what would sell me on another kickstarter featuring chibis. Someone posted earlier that hey wish they weren't in chibi style and I agree...cause if they are chibi there is only ONE thing I can use them for...and that is this game. I like my miniatures to have some cross use if possible.
I should point out that I really am looking forward to the game, and for more details of that to emerge - it originally sounded like they were gearing this up for competitive play, so I'd be interested to see what that looks like for a miniatures-heavy boardgame that isn't a wargame.
My frustration about some of the character designs is being brought into sharp relief because they are the only things being revealed right now. I'm not trying to just be negative for negativity's sake - it is going to be an element of the game which serves to limit who I can play it with, and that's a shame if it proves to be a great game. Clearly it's not going to be a problem for most of the intended audience!
I plan on backing this, and will only throw more money at it if by chance they cross over to SDE. At the very least I'm sure we'll get some heroes and mini bosses out of it, as was with relic knights. But depending on the scale of the game I wouldn't mind the 6 clans each having a spawn point, and only the named ninja being heroes/minibosses.
Dentry wrote: I think it's a pretty safe bet that we'll be seeing SDE cards for some of these guys. At least the heroes.
cincydooley wrote: But is there a minis only pledge....I sure darn rootin tootin hope so!!!
That's what I'm pledging for. Though I will have to get the game-components addon to go with my minies. I hope they bundle them together at some point.
I'm sure you're asking the same Q that I am: how many crossovers will we get for SDE?
Azazelx wrote: I wonder if they will include SDE cards to use these figures are heroes and villains?.
I would certainly dig some Spawning Ninja Horde for SDE, in the pure 1980 movies style.
"Ninja Rule Number 1: The more Ninja there are, the less skilled they become. One Ninja will always be more powerful when fighting alone a lot of them at once."
I'm quite confident with this Kickstarter. Soda Pop has a very good communication on the Forgotten King one. Will keep an eye for this. More Chibi models never hurt.
Bioptic wrote: My frustration about some of the character designs is being brought into sharp relief because they are the only things being revealed right now. I'm not trying to just be negative for negativity's sake - it is going to be an element of the game which serves to limit who I can play it with, and that's a shame if it proves to be a great game. Clearly it's not going to be a problem for most of the intended audience!
I am father of 4 children, one who is autistic so I have to be careful how things are presented to him initially. It all depends on how they are painted, even then using the original art style I see nothing wrong with presenting these to my children. My youngest are 11 and 13 and I've already showed them the miniatures which matches up with Krosmaster and SDE so they are both excited, especially since it is is Ninjas. I've seen worse in a Carls Jr commercial, which I wouldn't want them watching because of how its presented vs the appearance. I don't understand how these are considered over sexualized because they aren't nor do I see any issues of playing this at game storms or conventions.
Azazelx wrote: I wonder if they will include SDE cards to use these figures are heroes and villains?
This is what would sell me on another kickstarter featuring chibis. Someone posted earlier that hey wish they weren't in chibi style and I agree...cause if they are chibi there is only ONE thing I can use them for...and that is this game. I like my miniatures to have some cross use if possible.
If the game is good enough (like BattleLore 1E & SDE 1E), having game-specific minis isn't a bad thing. I'm not missing that my chibi SDE minis are only for SDE. Not at all. They're cute and the game is great.
That said, I do get the point of crossover use - nothing wrong with that at all, especially with the variety of things in the 28-32mm scale.
____
Bioptic wrote:I should point out that I really am looking forward to the game, and for more details of that to emerge - it originally sounded like they were gearing this up for competitive play, so I'd be interested to see what that looks like for a miniatures-heavy boardgame that isn't a wargame.
My frustration about some of the character designs is being brought into sharp relief because they are the only things being revealed right now.
I think this will be campaign/league play, such as Blood Bowl, Dreadball.
SPM / ND have been trickling out detail very slowly, and it has been a little frustrating for many of us as well. More recently, the information has started to reach a critical mass of what things might look like and how it might play.
____
Spartan-Kun wrote:I plan on backing this, and will only throw more money at it if by chance they cross over to SDE. At the very least I'm sure we'll get some heroes and mini bosses out of it, as was with relic knights. But depending on the scale of the game I wouldn't mind the 6 clans each having a spawn point, and only the named ninja being heroes/minibosses.
We shall see. It would not be to difficult to structure each Clan as a Spawn Point (flag), Hero/Miniboss (special character), and Minions (regular Ninja), but we'll see if they go that route. I hope so.
____
Dark Severance wrote:I am father of 4 children, one who is autistic so I have to be careful how things are presented to him initially. It all depends on how they are painted, even then using the original art style I see nothing wrong with presenting these to my children. My youngest are 11 and 13 and I've already showed them the miniatures which matches up with Krosmaster and SDE so they are both excited, especially since it is is Ninjas. I've seen worse in a Carls Jr commercial, which I wouldn't want them watching because of how its presented vs the appearance. I don't understand how these are considered over sexualized because they aren't nor do I see any issues of playing this at game storms or conventions.
I agree, and don't see anything over-sexualized with these toys - if a 3-year-old can have a Barbie doll, then this is fine. The recent Kate Upton commercial is pretty good, but the burgers are too wet and messy.
cincydooley wrote:I'm sure you're asking the same Q that I am: how many crossovers will we get for SDE?
I'm hoping for 3-6 new heroes/villains.
That seems like a fair estimate. But how many crossovers will we see into Ninja All-Stars?
Marie-Claude will be there since she's in everything Soda Pop does. Other than that we have Relic Knights, Super Dungeon Explore, and Tentacle Bento to draw from. But I don't think SDE or Tentacle Bento have ever made it into the other games, though. So I'm expecting a Kisa or Mamaro To ninja figure as those are the most recognizable from RK. And, personally, I'd like to see a Kingdom Death Twilight Knight promo ninja.
I'm also curious if we'll get a new Candy & Cola figure for this campaign or if they'll just offer rules for the SDE: Forgotten King ninja Candy.
Sarouan wrote:I would certainly dig some Spawning Ninja Horde for SDE, in the pure 1980 movies style.
It hasn't crossed my mind in quite some time but thanks to you I'm having flashbacks to the Dudikoff films.
Azazelx wrote:That Ninja All-Stars is a sports game???
cincydooley wrote:I'm sure you're asking the same Q that I am: how many crossovers will we get for SDE?
I'm hoping for 3-6 new heroes/villains.
That seems like a fair estimate. But how many crossovers will we see into Ninja All-Stars?
Marie-Claude will be there since she's in everything Soda Pop does. Other than that we have Relic Knights, Super Dungeon Explore, and Tentacle Bento to draw from. But I don't think SDE or Tentacle Bento have ever made it into the other games, though. So I'm expecting a Kisa or Mamaro To ninja figure as those are the most recognizable from RK. And, personally, I'd like to see a Kingdom Death Twilight Knight promo ninja.
I'm also curious if we'll get a new Candy & Cola figure for this campaign or if they'll just offer rules for the SDE: Forgotten King ninja Candy.
Given how nicely the minis cross-over they'd only really have to make new cards to add SDE characters into NAS. I can't see them NOT doing that. So I bet we'll have a fair amount both ways.
Piston Honda wrote: Jehan, sending you a PM out of curiosity as it is offtopic.
Hope you do not mind.
Muhhahahaha!!!!!!
Be careful what you ask for, young padowan.... Jehan's dead on...
Please, don't save me from my evil, scanty-clad wommonz!!!! I need a moral minority beacon of light like I need another hole in my head. I'm not a big fan of Soda pop's gak, but I'm full on on their SDE stuff. Its a really tight game.
Let people play what they want, and stop pushing that a little T and A is a bad thing.
Piston Honda wrote: Jehan, sending you a PM out of curiosity as it is offtopic.
Hope you do not mind.
Muhhahahaha!!!!!!
Be careful what you ask for, young padowan.... Jehan's dead on...
Please, don't save me from my evil, scanty-clad wommonz!!!! I need a moral minority beacon of light like I need another hole in my head. I'm not a big fan of Soda pop's gak, but I'm full on on their SDE stuff. Its a really tight game.
Let people play what they want, and stop pushing that a little T and A is a bad thing.
I don't have an issue with Soda pop's style. Not my Brew of beer won't slap others for liking it.
Wanted to ask Jehan's person exp. from living in Japan. Some questions I asked would have more than likely turned this thread into a moral and culture argument.
If by sports it means capturing objectives before the other team, ganging up on other players to stop a run away winner, and making a muck of everyone's well laid plans, I'm all for it.
Sounds like the game of Arcadia Quest we played tonight, in fact.
Hell, if it's just Ninja Arcadia I'd be perfectly content with that.
In the sense that it is intended to be played as a series of linked games as part of a campaign, yes.
The specifics of the league / campaign are not yet revealed, but I would not be surprised if this builds off SDE Arena and whatever SDE Campaign concepts were trialed there.
Well after seeing hammer- wielding monkey warriors, kitsune samurai, and tengu in the mix (I'm guessing larger based figures on top of that) I will be keeping a very close eye on this one.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Well after seeing hammer- wielding monkey warriors, kitsune samurai, and tengu in the mix (I'm guessing larger based figures on top of that) I will be keeping a very close eye on this one.
Why are the beastmen not Chibi? The head of the tengu and kitsune are smaller than the eye of a ninja. This is SDE Kasaro To all over again.
Azazelx wrote: Now we just need to hope that there's a basic level PM-access level pledge. Too much going on right now!
For TFK, they fully integrated it into their online store which seemed to work pretty well. If I remember correctly, they basically turned your pledge into a form of currency on their store and you could see secret items. Then you basically filled out your shopping cart with KS items and that was that.
I can't remember if they allowed real money add ons at that point or not.
The pledge manager window was rather large for SDE:FK and you could keep adding items for its duration. The only issue was that each time you confirmed or "checked out" your order it creates a new delivery package with the new items and charges its own shipping. There was no way to add to an existing shipment at the time so it was best to hold off for as long as possible before finalizing your order.
Azazelx wrote: Now we just need to hope that there's a basic level PM-access level pledge. Too much going on right now!
For TFK, they fully integrated it into their online store which seemed to work pretty well. If I remember correctly, they basically turned your pledge into a form of currency on their store and you could see secret items. Then you basically filled out your shopping cart with KS items and that was that.
I can't remember if they allowed real money add ons at that point or not.
Yeah, I was able to add on quite a lot to my SDE via their PM. OTOH I went in for $100 or so on the KS itself, rather than a $1 "PM" pledge, which is all I'll be able to afford right now.
We don't yet have the details of how SPM will run the NAS KS and PM, but I think it's fair to think that they will do things similar to how they ran SDE:FK, with $1 pledges being accepted, using the store as the PM, and allowing people to order more stuff.
In my case, I planned out at the end of the campaign, and only added a little bit once the details became available. Got a lot of stuff coming!
The Ninja All-Stars Kickstarter starts at 3:00pm EDT (12:00pm PDT)! [19:00 GMT time]
Want to make sure you don’t miss the opening moments? Bookmark the URL http://www.tiny.cc/ninja-all-stars. Right now it takes you to the Ninja All-Stars webpage, where you can brush up on all the clans. When the Kickstarter goes live it will automatically direct you straight to the Kickstarter page. Easy!
While Ninja All-Stars is superficially similar to our popular dungeon adventure game Super Dungeon Explore, Ninja All-Stars is a stand-alone game in a wholly new world. Creating cross-overs of every ninja clan, Hero, and Ronin in Ninja All-Stars would run counter to the very exciting plans we have for the Wandering Monk Mountain region of Super Dungeon. However, just like our fans, we could not resist the idea of brave Heroes battling ninja in beautiful temples and mist-haunted wilderness. So we created the Super Dungeon: Ninja Pack.
Not final art.
The Ninja Pack includes a new Elemental Affinity mechanic. This allows players to choose an Elemental Affinity for their ninja at the beginning of the game, granting them new and interesting abilities. This mechanic allows you to easily represent any (or every) Ninja All-Stars clan in your games of Super Dungeon. The Hero profiles and Elemental Affinity allow you to choose any Ninja All-Stars Hero or Ronin model to represent your Master or Mystic.
Super Dungeon Ninjas includes: Wandering Master and Wandering Mystic Heroes, Elemental Affinity reference card, Oni mini-boss, Elemental Shrine paired spawning point, Classic and Arcade Mode Chunin, Kunoichi, Madoushi, Kaiken, and Yajiri cards.
The Super Dungeon: Ninja Pack is included for free with your All-Star pledge!
Woof, Greedy. Model for Model not even close to TFK value. Thanks for a 4 player game with only 2 teams. (especially since 2 more teams are simply recolors, not even need new sculpts, talk about fake add-ons)
This game is in no way ever going to retail MSRP for 100$, why do companies feel the need to fake stretch goal with an incomplete game. If the core pledge wouldn't MRSP retail for 100$ then there is a problem with the starting pledge math.
So it looks like core game and 4 more colors addons is going to be 220$ and with basically 'more than retail' 10$ heroes, expect a 300$ completionist pledge.
I don't understand the need for the "fire shrine/water shrine" generic ninjas. I don't fancy having to paint the same 9 ninja sculpts several times over. (though the painted ones they show look very lovely - kudos to whoever did them).
Though I guess ~20 ninjas per clan box isn't too big a task if you break them down. (Though I assume by KS end it'll be more like 25)
Alex C wrote: So what do the elemental shrine guys do that the clan guys don't?
What do the Samurai do?
Would be nice to see those things explained.
I keep seeing the term 'blood bowl' kicked around... Makes me think that the 'types' are position and the 'clans' are upgrades. So if your sword guy lives and exp up, he becomes the clan version with better stats. They can't possibly have meant for people to play 4 player with 2 base ninja teams and 2 clan teams so we have to assume a base/clan combo is one team.
If you zoom in, the stats for the clan ninjas are the same, except they seem to have extra skills and a little yellow ball stat. So it is clear they are 'better' than their plain counterparts.
The 100$ pledge for TFK started around 60 models (for a game which was going to MSRP for 80$ and sell for 60 at online discounters) and ended up around 95 Models. And the add-ons for 30$ came with 20ish figure per add-on including big guys. Better see some added value to both the core and paid add-ons.
Edit: Eeeech, December 2015 = April 2016 since they will slip into Chinese new years and be exactly where they are for TFK.
Main page has been updated with the current pledge details and options.
Like the rest of you, I am confused and surprised by the inclusion and addition of generic ninja over Clan Ninja - I'm not sure I want to spend another $120 to "upgrade" my generic ninja to Clan Ninja.
They say the shrine clans are clans in their own right, so apparently the retail box game will only support 2 players out of the box. (I think they may be shooting for a lower MSRP on the core game this time around?) this does seem to fit the "Bloodbowl" model.
I wonder if they'll sell the shrine clans in different colored plastics separately at launch? I don't see many people using them except for as a way to represent "lesser" versions of the classes in the proper clans.
I will say - I like the way they handled the SDE crossover. Very smart to have cards just representing a ranged hero & melee hero + generic ninja spawn point to cover any ninja models you want to use. Saves a lot of fuss and keeps things from getting bogged down with 800 more cards.
Schmapdi wrote: That does seem to be exactly what they meant.
They say the shrine clans are clans in their own right, so apparently the retail box game will only support 2 players out of the box. (I think they may be shooting for a lower MSRP on the core game this time around?) this does seem to fit the "Bloodbowl" model.
Wading through the comments, it looks like the shrine ninjas represent 'quickstart' IE: Humanbowl
Also, they intend the Shrine ninjas to be 'proxies' for other clans. So you can play 4 clans OOTB, but 2 of the clans have cool models and the other 2 clans have generic proxies.
So realistically, all people would need are the 6 clans, but I suspect since the shrines are just generic recolors, it is easy and cheap for them to run more of them with other colors, so they will want completionists to get 6 shrines and 6 clans. Would it have been nice for the core box to have been 4 clans, and then 2 clans at 30$ add-ons for 160? sure... I guess if you are a big fan of HUMANBOWL, someone would want generic ninjas for quickstart. Maybe we will leave the shrine ninjas unpainted for easy transport/play and only paint the clan ninjas.
I can't quite figure out the angle on why people would want or need both shrine and clan ninjas and why we would want 12 teams when you only need 6.
Schmapdi wrote: That does seem to be exactly what they meant.
They say the shrine clans are clans in their own right, so apparently the retail box game will only support 2 players out of the box. (I think they may be shooting for a lower MSRP on the core game this time around?) this does seem to fit the "Bloodbowl" model.
Wading through the comments, it looks like the shrine ninjas represent 'quickstart' IE: Humanbowl
Also, they intend the Shrine ninjas to be 'proxies' for other clans. So you can play 4 clans OOTB, but 2 of the clans have cool models and the other 2 clans have generic proxies.
So realistically, all people would need are the 6 clans, but I suspect since the shrines are just generic recolors, it is easy and cheap for them to run more of them with other colors, so they will want completionists to get 6 shrines and 6 clans. Would it have been nice for the core box to have been 4 clans, and then 2 clans at 30$ add-ons for 160? sure... I guess if you are a big fan of HUMANBOWL, someone would want generic ninjas for quickstart. Maybe we will leave the shrine ninjas unpainted for easy transport/play and only paint the clan ninjas.
I can't quite figure out the angle on why people would want or need both shrine and clan ninjas and why we would want 12 teams when you only need 6.
I do think it would have been better to just dissolve the shrine ninjas and add some of them as lesser ninjas in the other clans. Which is what I think 95% of people will wind up doing with them. (i.e. you have your shrine archer ninjas, then your fancier clan archer ninjas).
How I took it was that all the shrine ninjas have the same stats, regardless of element. But i we're getting the purple ones as a stretch goal. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with all 6 colors of shrine ninjas as stretch goals (since they are practically free to add for SPM). But that just seems like an unnecessary tidal wave of repeat minis to me.
** Edit **
Looking at the first update. It looks like our first few freebie stretch goals will be adding the Heroes to the fire/water clans. And at some point they'll have to add the Oni's to them too. I found the SDE campaign to be a good value - but I am finding this one to be a bit chintzy.
Hm. The fiancee and I are absolutely smitten with SDE and are eagerly awaiting our Forgotten King to arrive. We also absolutely adore ninjas. I'll wait, as I always do (seriously, I followed/knew I'd be backing KD:M since the beginning but only pledged the last week), but I think we'll definitely be backing this one.
This just looks too fun to pass up, so I'm glad Blood Rage didn't quite catch my fancy.
Schmapdi wrote: I found the SDE campaign to be a good value - but I am finding this one to be a bit chintzy.
Dude, we only a few hours into a 30-day campaign. Let the value develop over then next 4 weeks before you make a decision.
Here is why it is different:
*When they had a 100$ TFK pledge, it was the 80$ retail release with a 12$ hero and a 20$ spawn at launch. So if they had funded and never added a darn thing, it would have been slightly better than retail but it was worth 100$ out of the gate. 5 Heroes, 5 Spawns, a few bosses.
This is not worth 100$ at launch and it has people confused due to the cheapness of the shrine ninjas (and rightfully so). Pledging for something that might grow to be worth 100$ is FAKE STRETCH GOALS and KS consumers have become experienced enough to identify them. The comments are full of confusion and 'use them as proxies' is a really awful response. Both the core game and 30$ add-on are lacking retail value. I hope they add at least a hero and big guy to every clan free of cost and they might be worth it. I don't see how they can try to launch the core game without the ONIs when they clearly will be part of the retail. It was like when Mega Man KS tried to convince us Gutzman and Cutzman who were on the front of the box wouldn't be in the retail release.
What they should have done:
*Base set have 4 CLANS. Period. Completionists then need to get the core box and 2 add-ons for a total of 160$
*Make Shrine ninja 'Bag-o-ninja' and highlight 'one-off' play as another way to play like bloodbowl does with humanbowl. By highlighting it, you can sell them en masse like the samurai, and people can opt-in. The confusion of 'what? proxy shrine ninja or play with 2 handicapped bands?' would be gone. Make an add-on for all 6 shrines for 60$
Total 220$
The alternative is the core box will probably have all 6 shrines as add-ons, and people have to purchase 4 more clans, for a total of 220$ but yet, everyone is confused and flooded with minis. Allowing people out the door with 160$ with no confusion will be better than people who just divest themselves totally. People also will feel less 'cheated' when they get stuff they want in the core, opposed to repaints of models which apparently they won't need and won't use in most gameplay. It isn't good when all people are talking about is the 'is this only able to be played with 2 players? proxies? what is a shrine ninja?'
If this was 4 clans with Onis at launch, it would have been a slam dunk and matched TFK model for model.
Edit: Ugh... How do you show a picture of core gameplay with models not in the core box? Shrines and Oni are part of core gameplay and pictured in all of their images, probably even will be on the game box but yet we need unlocked stretches to have a complete game? FAKE stretch goals.
Schmapdi wrote: I found the SDE campaign to be a good value - but I am finding this one to be a bit chintzy.
Dude, we only a few hours into a 30-day campaign. Let the value develop over then next 4 weeks before you make a decision.
I found SDE:FK to be a good deal from the get-go. And I know it will have more value added. But like I said - seeing in my crystal ball SG-wise we have:
Temple Tokens - hit, fake SG (which is fine, and expected)
More (and likely multiple) - Shrine ninja sets in different colored plastic *yawn*
Adding the heroes (and eventually Oni) - to the Clan sets that obviously are meant to be in there already
Several "pay money to unlock more things to buy goals"
We're going to be at 300k and the weekend before we hit any actual, valuable stretch goals.
I'm still super interested in the campaign of course, and I see plenty to like about it. But they've stumbled out of the gate IMO. (and others, apparently).
This means if the Clans in the core box and add-ons do not include a Clan hero and Oni, then that is a problem. If we have to multiple stretch to make an add-on equal to a TFK minion group, that is a problem.
By TFK standards 160$ should have gotten 6 clans with hero and oni. Period. 4 base box, 2 paid add-ons. If it costs over 220$ to get the 6 clans with hero and Oni, Sodapop has gotten greedy.
The real problem is that SPM has any generic ninja in the first place. I just do not understand that decision at all.
We are in agreement there. Ironically, had the game just had the two Clans in it from the get go, and the stretch goals were "add melee training-ninjas" (and the like) to the clan packs I think everyone would be much happier and less confused.
I can kind of understand the generic Shrine ninja thing even though I'd prefer clan specific ninja models. It allows players to more easily(?) switch between the six different clans contained in the game rulebook even though their models aren't included in the box set. It looks like each clan will be getting its own colored Shrine ninja through stretch goals, so it shouldn't be too much a problem to switch factions for KS backers. But as a retail product the generic look will be helpful to people wanting to try out the different clans but not willing or able to buy the matching colored plastics.
Hopefully some of the stretch goals will be geared to alleviate this oversight.
Edit: By oversight I mean giving us clan specific Shrine ninja models.
The real problem is that SPM has any generic ninja in the first place. I just do not understand that decision at all.
We are in agreement there. Ironically, had the game just had the two Clans in it from the get go, and the stretch goals were "add melee training-ninjas" (and the like) to the clan packs I think everyone would be much happier and less confused.
OK, then I wonder how much the retail box would be if it's only 30-ish minis (2 sets generic + samurai). It can't be $80. Maybe $50-60?
Had the retail box just had Ika and Tora Clans with no generics, and Ijin Clan bundled, I would have been much happier.
Or even if the generics were black and grey - that would have supported 4 players from the get-go.
OK, then I wonder how much the retail box would be if it's only 30-ish minis (2 sets generic + samurai). It can't be $80. Maybe $50-60?
Had the retail box just had Ika and Tora Clans with no generics, and Ijin Clan bundled, I would have been much happier.
Or even if the generics were black and grey - that would have supported 4 players from the get-go.
The math which adds up:
50$ Core box: Has 2 Shrines and all associated gameplay
30$ Clans: Clan models, 1 Clan hero, 1 Oni
10$ Heroes
That would put the base pledge at 120$ of retail product for 100$, which would be a 20ish% discount of MSRP.
TFK got close to 40% off MSRP when all was said and done, and is basically what they would sell the product to retailers for... which is quite fair for people funding the product IMHO. Soda still gets basically full profit that way.
So until we have hero and Oni in the two core pledge Clans and 30$ add ons Clans, we are in fake stretch goal land.
Seems like a terrible deal compared to FK, Rum and Bones, Blood rage and other recent campaigns. No big guys from the beginning? Lots "shrine ninjas"? Okay. Not with the €:$ conversion rates.
Ok... After wading through the comments, and other things on the net, this is what I have figured out.
Like blood bowl, you only need a certain number of players to play a match. Buuuuuut In league play, you WILL need a full roster for substitutions, injuries and so on. When they speak about the 2 shrines and 2 clans being 4 teams and you can proxy, that is basically not true. Because we haven't seen real gameplay info, people are confused.
The issue is the core Bloodbowl came with 12 plastic humans and 12 plastic orcs. You need 11 to play. You can have up to 16. So they sold metal 12-man teams as expansions.
So an orc player or a human player to have a full REAL team actually needed the core plastics and the metal expansion.
If you look at the SCROLL graphic, why have like 20 lines for players when you only have like 9 in the box? Because what they are telling us is the core box with shrine ninjas and the 2 clans is enough to make 2 teams period.
Shrine Ninja = One off game
Clans = Can be proxied as shrine ninja for one off game
A real team for league play = Shrine + Clan
The 100$ pledge gives you basically two teams.
SPM's butt must be hurting from straddling the fence by being coy about how the models are for 4-player experiences when players will have similar colored models , because if they explicitly say 'you need a shrine and a clan to play 1 team, and you can't play 4player out of the box' they will take a hit hard, and rightfully so. If they would have been explicitly clear about how it worked, I think people would be glad to have 2 sets of models for complete teams.
I have to say, the official comments are very glib and entitled much how Bunnies vs Zombies was, and is following almost the exact same fake stretch goals model. That game was crushed under ill will due to the general rudeness and lack of honesty in that campaign. I suspect Chibi models will keep this one trudging along, but the fact that every goal to 200k is boldface fake stretch goals and a joke compared to TFK is not doing them any favors. People who would have been all-in due to models are now demanding gameplay demos which it is clear SPM does not have this game completed and ready to show.
Creator comments on this one seem nice enough to me. KS backers are prone to Chicken Little rants because, honestly, they are super excited about the product and want MOAR information and MOAR savings and MOAR stretch goals. It's understandable but hardly presents an accurate picture of the project. I'm backing now and I will see what it looks like in fifteen days. As per usual, Day 2 is too soon to judge.
I'm with Manchu on this, except I would clarify that the KS is still less than 24 hours old.
In this time, it has raised $125k, which is about 2/3 as much as SDE raised on its first day. So this is tracking toward $750k, not $1.15M. Still, not a bad number.
Hopefully, SPM is paying attention and adjust SGs accordingly.
I certainly hope they're taking a look at the stretches. I'm not liking what I see. I'll at least wait and see what things look like when the campaign is nearing completing.
But I still don't get paid stretch goals.
How is it Mercs/ MegaCon have been able to offer free stretch goals for all their games, yet so many others like SodaPop and Mantic continue to make us wait for certain milestones to get the option to even purchase stuff?
Paid SGs help increase the funding level by appealing to existing backers. It's quite common. I was miffed the first time I saw it, too. Now it doesn't phase me at all. If you don't want a paid SG, don't add money to your pledge -- KS is very "vote with your wallet." If paid SGs really drag on the project, SPM will get the idea.
Manchu wrote: Paid SGs help increase the funding level by appealing to existing backers. It's quite common. I was miffed the first time I saw it, too. Now it doesn't phase me at all. If you don't want a paid SG, don't add money to your pledge -- KS is very "vote with your wallet." If paid SGs really drag on the project, SPM will get the idea.
But why was TFK able to provide us a paid add-on with 1 hero, 12 models and a Big guy, and now in this campaign we need to have one goal to unlock the paid add-on and another to expand it?
That is the issue. All the stretches right now shown to 200k are fake. If we didn't need to stretch to add an oni to the clans which should have already have been there, then that would have been available for something else.
Byakko, Shrine tokens and Oni are all fake stretches when compared to their peers on TFK. I think the 225k stretch proves that because no clan can ever exist without the hero and oni, so the idea that the first 3 would have had no heroes and Oni is intellectually dishonest. It would have been like having a bloodbowl team with no passer or catcher. Note how 250k will probably be the Blue hero with the anchor, again, another fake goal. I would rather filler like shrine ninja recolors than fake goals.
nkelsch wrote: But why was TFK able to provide us a paid add-on with 1 hero, 12 models and a Big guy, and now in this campaign we need to have one goal to unlock the paid add-on and another to expand it?
So it appears like all 6 clans will cost 220$
NAS gives 2 "free" adds with 2 heroes, 2x 10 models and 2 big guys.
$220 for all 6 clans looks correct.
The problem is the generic ninja. They don't add value like SPM thought they would.
But let's define that term. What makes a SG fake? I think most people call a SG fake if they believe it should have been included in the sweet spot pledge from the beginning of the project. That is, the component in question is necessary to play the game such that they game is interesting enough to merit its price tag. Logically, a SG is "real" if it is effectively extraneous.
As I understand it, the theory goes that creators use fake SGs to fill out their project. In essence, they expect a project will earn X amount of money in Y amount of time. The fake SGs are already supported by X amount of money. The creator simply "reveals" them one by one to keep backers and potential backers interested in the project. (For example, we are talking about it right now.)
Why do people object to fake SGs? A project's funding will only support so many SGs. Some people believe that fake SGs take up the limited number of slots that should be occupied by real SGs. I think this is misguided. Any creator worth backing has planned almost all SGs (if not exactly which will be revealed when) before the KS opens -- with the possible exception of end-of-KS pledge surges. That means, the number of real SGs has already been decided. Fake SGs are not taking up those slots; they simply push the real SGs farther up in terms of how much it will take to unlock them.
This is why I don't mind fake SGs: real SGs, by definition, are extraneous to the game I am backing. Real SGs cost time above and beyond what it will take me to get the game I want. This is especially frustrating when the real SGs are chintzy crap like commemorative medallions or similar junk. That garbage creates delays that have nothing to do with the product I am (essentially) pre-ordering. Meanwhile, fake SGs are by definition part of the initial plan. They are far less likely to create delays.
I feel like I am about to fall hard for the new SDE.
On-topic, can someone confirm that the "Bag O Samurai" add-on has no bearing on the game? I think SPM said as much in the comments, I just want to make sure I am not misinterpreting that.
@Vincent 6 is enough for the game, but we like Samurai models, and figured other people do too..... @Coralline Offering the general shrine ninja in the core game gives players freedom to experiment with different clans and their various play-styles. Once a player settles on a clan they like they can pick up the clan box, or just keep playing with the shrine ninja.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm with Manchu on this, except I would clarify that the KS is still less than 24 hours old.
In this time, it has raised $125k, which is about 2/3 as much as SDE raised on its first day. So this is tracking toward $750k, not $1.15M. Still, not a bad number.
Hopefully, SPM is paying attention and adjust SGs accordingly.
Looking at the Kicktraqs - SDE raised $187k and change on it's first full day (it launched at like 11p.m. the night before - so it had a little bit before then too). but from 1700 backers.
NAS raised $100k and change but from 900 backers, because NAS launched with $50 worth of optional add-ons from the very get go. SDE didn't even have $50 worth of stuff to add until it was past the $300k mark.
So I think the numbers aren't as close as they appear.
I'm thinking, if it's possible, I might just pledge my favorite Clan + a few Ronin and the SDE cards (once they're all unlocked). But a great thing about Soda Pop is that at least no matter what, I'll be able to get what I want at retail. Still much love for them on eschewing exclusives.
We shouldn't forget that Ninja All Stars is a brand new game for SPM and as such any 'generosity' on their part would have to be held in reserve as the community's reception of the game and subsequent KS backing would be harder to gauge. They might have things waiting in the wings for a threshold where they become viable 'thank yous' for fans.
Manchu wrote: I don't mind "fake stretch goals."
But let's define that term. What makes a SG fake? I think most people call a SG fake if they believe it should have been included in the sweet spot pledge from the beginning of the project. That is, the component in question is necessary to play the game such that they game is interesting enough to merit its price tag. Logically, a SG is "real" if it is effectively extraneous.
For me it's not only inclusion of Fake SGs in the "Sweet spot" but in the base game, which happens a bit too often - perhaps not in CMoN campaigns but certainly in Mantic ones. Take a look at the DZ2 campaign and how it started off. As an incomplete boxed game, with "stretch goals" to add in stuff that we know will be in the retail box. Let alone the initial "sweet spot" not being anywhere near $115 retail value (never mind "KS prices")
I feel like I am about to fall hard for the new SDE.
In SDE, the Heroes earn a Princess Coins when they destroy one of the 3-5 Monster Spawn points. They can be cashed in for various beneficial effects. In the SDE:FK KS, backers got one coin for "free", but we could (in theory) use up to 5.
The new SDE:FK is cleaner than before, with far more variety of Heroes and Monsters. It's a fun game, and I cannot wait for my huge delivery of SDE stuff!
The fact that NAS will have limited ability to cross into the new SDE is nice.
So some art assets, model designs (and maybe moulds), etc will have been able to be re-used
Also we don't know how their books looked after the KS (maybe they were overly generous and need to be less so this time round)
If you like the idea but don't like how much is on offer check back on the last day when you can make a real judgement
Less than 5% of the art was reused - FK created all new artwork, all new models (with new mold tools), etc. SDE:FK is very much a clean 2nd Edition that stands on its own; the only reuse being for 1E stuff carried into 2E.
SDE:FK should have been fine financially - it's clear they didn't really expect to break $1M, so making more stuff likely gave them the extra cash to fund NAS.
I hope that NAS comes into its own over the next 4 weeks, and hope it has an awesomely high value base pledge.
Azazelx wrote: For me it's not only inclusion of Fake SGs in the "Sweet spot" but in the base game
By "sweet spot" I was trying to capture a category wider (but inclusive of) what passes for a complete game given that "basic" does not seem to always mean "complete." I have noticed a trend in big box board game KS projects to distinguish between the "basic game" on the one hand and what I would consider the full game on the other hand; i.e., a game that has enough variety to be interesting for more than a half dozen plays. That is to say, I think more and more board games on KS seem to offer what I would consider an incomplete game at the "basic" level.
I like that SPM has a single pledge level. As far as I can tell (I am happy to be corrected), NAS has everything two players need for league play. I think that feels very complete.
Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!
Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet
Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!
Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet
Yeppers, This is a good thing. I think it makes sense for people who want to play. They can get the core materials and a clan of their choice for reasonable cost. That should capture the attention of people who would potentially be scared off from a 130$+ buy-in.
Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!
Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet
Yeppers, This is a good thing. I think it makes sense for people who want to play. They can get the core materials and a clan of their choice for reasonable cost. That should capture the attention of people who would potentially be scared off from a 130$+ buy-in.
I'm betting it will be something like $60 - base game components, + clan of choice & single set of shrine ninjas. Include some, but not all stretch goals/bonuses. I'd be down with that, I think.
** Though I guess it could be a collector's pledge level too, as Dentry points out. But I dunno - given how many people seem unhappy (or downright ridiculously hostile) about the shrine ninjas, I would hope it'd be something smaller.
Ninja stealth stretch goal update on the front page.
It took me a long time to see it - but they updated the $150k stretch goal to include the hero to BOTH the Ika and Tora clans. So it's only one fake SG instead of two. A small, but nice move.
I'm usually really forgiving...but..what the f**k is going on here. All these new options are just weird
if i don't get the elemental box I don't get any shrine ninjas?...do I want shrine ninjas...cause I don't need four colors of the same miniature so of course I'm gonna get the elemental box.
Yep Elemental master removes all the Shrine Ninja and allows you to pick 4 unlocked clans instead.
The All Star pledge is gone Ninja Master is now the default pledge if you've picked All-Star you don't need to change you will get 4 ninja shrines plus a choice of 2 clans.
Its more work logistically for SPM
I'm happy with the change as I wanted Ijin and Kitsune clans and wasn't really interested in the set ones so saves me $60. I think I'll go for Elemental master better to have 4 unique clans than a load of generics in different colours.
Meh. Easy to skip if it comes to it. For me at least - looking at my own situation, after all, how many boardgames have I (we?) picked up in the last couple of years? How many have we kickstarted in that time? How many are just arriving now or due to arrive shortly? Is it important to pick up every new one?
Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.
They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.
Ninja Master is like "All-Star", but you can choose different starting Clans. If you like Ijin instead of Ika, you pick that instead. If you like Yama zaru instead of Tora, you pick that instead.
Elemental Master trades the 4 generics for 2 more Clans: "quality" (4 Clans) vs "quantity" (4 generic + 2 Clans).
looking all the option over...at this stage...it almost makes more sense to just add on a the pledge you don't get cause that gets you all your basic ninja and all the 6 expansions (that I will assume will be unlocked)
We got 27 days to see how this shapes up or falls apart....
Dentry wrote: . And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.
No - you don't. If you have "proper" clans - the shrine ninjas only serve to add sculpt variety to your team OR can be used to represent "lesser" ninjas. I.e. - use them until your team gets upgraded, then switch to the fancier minis.
Alternately - they can be used to proxy other teams to see if you like them apparently. They have no special use otherwise.
From the FAQ:
Shrine Ninja have unique quick start rules for fast and simple one off games. They also have no clan insignias so you can use them as any clan, which makes them ideal for trying out every clan. Should you then decide you want to buy a specific clan you can use the shrine ninja to add more model variety.
The new pledges are nice, but brace yourselves for waves of confusion for the next week.
rayphoton wrote: You know what Azazelx ...you are a font of wisdom. If this one is a hassle...its easy to skip.
I got SDE FK, Shadows of Brmistone, Cthulhu Wars etc etc to play
Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dentry wrote: Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.
They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.
It's not butthurt or being mean-spirited for me here. I've got no special love for anime or chibi - which isn't to say that I dislike them, they're okay but not a special selling point, if you see what I mean. But I gots so much to play, and this seems like more of an expensive, complicated one.
Perfectly understandable. Might just be my viewing NAS as en extension to SDE and my collector tendencies kicking in as a result that make it so tempting, then.
Schmapdi wrote: Alternately - they can be used to proxy other teams to see if you like them apparently. They have no special use otherwise.
Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I missed it. Certainly makes it a clearer decision.
It is certainly more attractive now, even though the 200k SG still is the Oni that you know would've been with every clan. Shrine Oni (and heros?) were hinted at for future SGs. A big based Samurai would be my favourite unlock, though, they're my favourite minis so far.
I want miniature diversity over sheer quantitity (GW starter sets and Space Hulk are still king, IMO), so I'd go with the Elemental pledge and hope for the other two shrines as SGs, because they're good models and I want some, but I wouldn't want a ton of them.
Eh, since I have to pay rent for two places right now I can only throw in a buck right now and see how it develops until the PM (and how the quality of FK minis compares to my rather bad base game SDE ones with their soft, fuzzy detail and tons.of hard to remove mold lines).
I hope it'll be a good GAME, though, that would get me to buy it now or at retail, no matter how the minis turn out. I might actually sculpt a team of Scottish chibi ninjas with "Kiltsunes" if it is fun to play! Only question os if a huge, drunk brute or a Cameronian (of Infinity fame) would be a better "Oni".
rayphoton wrote: looking all the option over...at this stage...it almost makes more sense to just add on a the pledge you don't get cause that gets you all your basic ninja and all the 6 expansions (that I will assume will be unlocked)
We got 27 days to see how this shapes up or falls apart....
Yes, I'm surprised that this hasn't been commented on more! If you want all 6 'proper' clans, your options are to:
1) Get Elemental Master for $100, and then add on the 2 remaining clans for $60. Total = $160
2) Get Elemental Master for $100, and then also get Ninja Master for $100. Total = $200
For that extra $40, option 2 also gives you:
- a second copy of the game, which is actually genuinely useful if you're playing a 6-player league.
- 36 generic ninjas, which can be used to bulk out existing teams or to form 10 teams in total for league play.
- 6 extra samurai
- 2 copies of every stretch goal between now and the end of the campaign. Some of these will be less useful than others to have, although it does mean that you can keep the duplicates of uniques in with your SDE stuff! Or sell them on at half the eventual Sodapop store price, of course...
I'd probably be doubling up now if the pound wasn't currently so weak against the dollar. Need to gamble on it being lower by the pledge manager...
Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.
This, coupled with the lack of exclusives (which Is that that SPM/ND does this in the long run, but perhaps less so for their KS campaigns) gives me pause.
I'll probably still back it, and honestly, probably in the method Bioptic laid out.
Picking up the 2 pledges seems the best if you're really looking for variety, especially considering there's still clans to unlock.
6 clans and shrine ninjas for 200 isn't too bad.
This is more what I wanted to see in the first place. Hopefully it isn't too bad logistically, since all the elemental clans were going to be add ons anyway (and most likely packaged separately).
There are 30 Heroes and Ronin in the rulebook I hope they don't keep going with the Ronin being $10 a pop!
To date we have 6 heroes 1 per named clan, 3 Ronin in the base pledge (if cola is separate) and 5 paid add on Ronin. It sounds like the shrine ninja might get some heroes and Oni at some point.
At least we get the rules so I can proxy some with the Impact! Chibis I have ( I realised this morning I have a complete shrine ninja clan sitting in a drawer)
rayphoton wrote: You know what Azazelx ...you are a font of wisdom. If this one is a hassle...its easy to skip.
I got SDE FK, Shadows of Brmistone, Cthulhu Wars etc etc to play
Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dentry wrote: Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.
They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.
It's not butthurt or being mean-spirited for me here. I've got no special love for anime or chibi - which isn't to say that I dislike them, they're okay but not a special selling point, if you see what I mean. But I gots so much to play, and this seems like more of an expensive, complicated one.
So many untouched kickstarters :(
Forgot I KS Incursion, also forgot I kickstarted wolsung until I opened the mystery box the other week.
Getting ready to ship out my untouched Hell Dorado minis I sold. Wrath of Kings is next along with Sails and By Fire and Sword. At least I am getting a new dado set out of all this
Think I should have used the money towards games I actively play. :/
Think I should have used the money towards games I actively play. :/
Kingdom Death is around the corner, isn't?
One of the nice things about Forgotten King, Zombicide, and Ninja All Stars is that they deliberately cater to non-builders with pre-assembled minis, so you can play right out of the box.
Kingdom Death has submitted to print, but has yet to go through proofs and approvals. June will be tight. OTOH, Forgotten King is shipping now, and Journey : Wrath of Demons is printing for delivery starting in Q2.
I'm much happier now that they've added the elemental master pledge. I really didn't want the 54 shrine ninjas all that much. Now I feel like I'm paying for what I want, cool chibi ninja clans with individual backgrounds.
Now I'd just like to see what the hell the rules are like
Now that they confirmed that Oni are 0-2 I really want a "second Oni for free" SG. They should've at least put in one per clan in the starter right from the beginning, even if the shrines didn't get them without SGs.
And I want shrine ninja SGs, because there has to be a middle way between a ton of them and none. They ARE cool, after all, but clone armies suck.
Soda Pop at least listens sometimes (board plus creep bundles were ace), but they have to with all the weird decisioons for this KS.
Or any Oni at all I hope it teaches them a lesson for their next campaign, at this rate it would take until day 7 or so to get even a few big guys into the boxes. Bigger isn't always better with miniatures, but people like them and honestly, totally locking out the big bruiser/blocker gameplay option from the core game seems silly. It really does look like they overestimated their own appeal and didn't plan for a slow campaign. They didn't even have rules or a video, but a ton of 10 bucks a pop for tiny PVC heros!
CMON used the new factions as add-ons at slow times instead of SGs for Rum and Bones. Why should Soda Pop/Ninja Division or whoever actually finances it be unable to do the same. I understand paid add-on SGs for really small campaigns and even more oddball characters that would appeal to a tiny segment of the audience in bigger campaigns, but they have zero trouble to finance sculpts and molds for their existing game RK, they can front the costs for (add-on) clans that are NOT sold cheap at all. I know I splurged for all Spawn Points during the Forgotten King Campaign (even though the Stilt Town minis aren't even that good), the chance that a specific clan would totally bomb compared to the others is slim, I think.
You gotta spend teef to earn da teef. Or crump a git ova da snozzwot real gud, ya wimpy git lova.
I think the pledge points right now are barley a 20% discount from MSRP which means 'wait until retail' is very viable right now, especially with other good KS running where my money will work harder for me.
While it may become better value 'later', I don't pledge money NOW for hope for value LATER. Until the ONIs and heroes are part of the clans, we haven't reach TFK value. No pledge. If that means they can't meet all 6 clans because they wasted 100k in fake goals because they assumed they had a runaway campaign going? oh well.
If they legitimately can't afford the discounts or package sizes they did for TFK and they lost money or can't do it again, then they need to say that. There is no shame in telling people 'we can't afford 30$ model packs with 12-15 models, a hero and a big guy'. Right now, I don't buy it. I suspect a lot of people don't buy it either.
Mantic and SPM are both struggling right now, and it is purely because people are directly comparing model count and value to their previous KS and wondering why there is less models or less discount.
I hope I can get 6 full clans and 6 full shrines with 2 pitches for 200$. That is where I think I will accept the value for the effort of getting the game made. But if thier next KS is even less value, they are going to become put on the 'wait until retail' list. (hell, they may be there already)
Obviously, NAS is going very slow, undoubtedly slower than SPM expected, but a lot of the value develops over time, and you often don't see the full value until the very end.
Right now, we are a few days into NAS, with only $170k raised. Comparing against a campaign that raised an additional $1M more is a little bit unfair. Dollar for dollar you might compare NAS against Day 1 of SDE:FK, when it had only raised $170k.
I think SPM needs to revise the campaign concept against a $500k-$700k finish, with a lot of information about what the game is. Right now, it's $170k based on being SDE-related, but the game needs to be clearer to backers.
Manchu wrote: How did you calculate the discount? Could you show your work?
Well, I can compare pledge points to TFK 1:1.
Emerald Valley currently has:
1 Hero
1 Mini-boss (large figure)
15 Other figures (2 large)
Claws of the Wyrm:
1 Hero
1 Mini-boss (large figure)
12 Other figures (2 large)
Heroes are 10$
Current models MSRP are:
12.95 per Hero
14.95 per large monster
30$-35$ per SPAWN point
60$ for 3 heroes, 2 spawns and 2 Bosses
*So if we believed things cost the MAX cost if you assumed peacemeal, that is 12.95+14.95+30=57.9 Retail.
*If you look at roxor pricing, You should be able to get 2 heroes, 2 bosses and 2 spawns for 60$ retail, which makes the 30$ per package.
*During the TFK they said these will probably retail around 40-45$
Which means internet discounters at 20% mean:
Max possible price: 46$
Cheapest price for similar modelcount: 24$ (20% off roxor/2)
eluded to retail with 20$ off: 36$
So yeah, 30$ for 1 hero, 1 big guy and 12-15 models wasn't too bad compared to existing SDE products and possible future pricepoints. If the pricepoints grossly inflate past these levels, then there will be other issues for growth of the game.
Anywho. Now let's compare Emerald/Wyrmclaw to Clans.
We are missing both a mini-boss sized figure, and up to 2 other 'large based, large figures', Which is a solid 15$ in retail difference. (which makes the lack of an Oni at launch even more of a joke)
This shows cost creep. Do we think they are really going to sell a clan for 45$ at retail compared to being able to get basically roxor for that?
Basically, this means we are not even close to TFK until at least 1 ONI is included, and for it to be 'fair' compared to TFK, we need at least 1 more clan hero or a few more other models. The problem is, if this is going to retail for 35$ or something as a clan, then that means either the discount we get here is off, or the retail costs are going up compared to TFK and pre-SDE when you can get roxor/vondrak and all his models for basically half the cost compared to new sets.
Hence why I feel all things are 'equal' and I am getting 'enough' discount from MSRP to beat discounters 20% if I get an oni and at least 1 more hero or 2-3 more models. The fact we have to stretch to meet the equal value of the SDE add-ons is a no-go for me.
But YMMV... value is relative. The TFK 100$ always super pledge was a slam dunk with close to 38% discount from retail. Most of the add-ons were less than 10% discount meaning I can get those 10$ heroes potentially for 9.50$ post-launch (or 6$ like SDE heroes are right now all over the place)
edit: comparing 10$/30$ addon to 10$/30$ addon is more than fair. It is apples to apples. You are basically saying 'apples cost more because of a bad harvest' but the issue is retail doesn't care how bad your harvest is. Putting roxor on the shelf for 60$ next to a clan for 45$ with 1/3rd the models won't work and SPM knows it. Funding changes quantity of products made, not the value or price point of retail releases. You release 4 clans instead of 6, not 4 worse value clans compared to similar products from the same company.
edit1: Also, they need to change the campaign splash image to the box art of shrine ninjas. The 'panty shot' has already come up multiple times on social media as turning people off when they see the campaign shared. It adds nothing to the campaign and is hurting the perception of the product.
The SDE economics are more favorable, being tied to a $1.1M finish, vs $170k in progress. If NAS hits $1.1M (not likely), I'm sure their Clan packs would be just as good as the SDE:FK Warbands.
Right now, NAS has 4/6 Clans unlocked, each still incomplete (1/2 Uniques, no Oni), so we have a ways to go.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The SDE economics are more favorable, being tied to a $1.1M finish, vs $170k in progress. If NAS hits $1.1M (not likely), I'm sure their Clan packs would be just as good as the SDE:FK Warbands.
Right now, NAS has 4/6 Clans unlocked, each still incomplete (1/2 Uniques, no Oni), so we have a ways to go.
And if they try to release the clans at retail for 45$ when they sell TFK products for 45$ and Roxor for 60, then NAS will be a fat turd pegwarmer at retail and be in the clearance 30% off in a month.
So 'not enough funding' doesn't excuse releasing poor-value incomplete products at retail. You can produce less clans, but you cannot produce smaller sets of minis with a higher price point per model than other products you release.
SPM needs to do better than 20% off MSRP to keep my pledge. I think nkelsch makes a strong case that this KS is a long way from doing so. Fortunately, we are a long way from the end, too. I expect SPM damage control will kick in by this coming Wednesday at the latest. If they allow it to coast past then, I'm afraid that counts as a red flag.
Manchu wrote: SPM needs to do better than 20% off MSRP to keep my pledge. I think nkelsch makes a strong case that this KS is a long way from doing so. Fortunately, we are a long way from the end, too. I expect SPM damage control will kick in by this coming Wednesday at the latest. If they allow it to coast past then, I'm afraid that counts as a red flag.
SPM is already doing DC - that's the point of the "Master" pledges allowing backers to choose Clans.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Is it wrong of me to want a baby Kintaro riding on top of a giant bear as a ronin?
Seems they're mining enough Japanese folk tales/ mythology as it is...
Maybe I've just been playing too much Mortal Kombat, but the first thing I envisioned was a chibi tiger-Shokan on a giant bear. Did not disappoint.
...And now I want Sub-Zero, Ermac, Scorpion, Reptile, Smoke, Noob Saibot, Kitana, Mileena, Jade, Tanya, and my favorite, Skarlet, in chibi form for SDE and NAS.
Clan Kombat. Featuring a billion heroes and Shokan for the Oni. Various Lin Kuei (robo and non-robo) and Shira Ryu ninjas for the various "minions". Yes, yes I do like where this is going.
Ah so I did - that's the problem with yellow and orange clans I thought it was Yamazaru - Kitsune would be one of my 4 picks as will Tanchyo whenever they turn up.
There's 30 heroes and Ronin in the rulebook. 9 Ronin revealed so far. It looks like at least 2 Heroes per clan for 12 total, possibly some heroes for the Shrine ninjas it was in a comment a few days ago so 6 more that might leave 9 more Ronin - pure guess work it might be 3 per clan have to wait and see.
Interesting how the economics of unlocking free content can change
But I really dig those characters. Now I just want the two missing clans, the Oni, the missing clans' Oni and some more Oni, maybe shrine Oni and giant stone dogs for the Samurai and a way to get some, but not a TON of shrine ninjas (How cool are the shrine Kaiken and archers? So cool.
Well, that and hands on with the FK stuff, because base SDE minis had such soft details :/
Way ahead of schedule! I am a little surprised to see this heading into a weekend. Might have been better on Monday morning. But maybe other surprises are in store?
cincydooley wrote: Good lord I feel illiterate trying to read some of those names.
I thought that feeling was usually reserved for when trying to read Darklands' unit names!
Yamazaru, Tora, and Ijin are pretty much locks for me now seeing the new heroes. Of course I had pretty much made up my mind on them as soon as I saw most of their designs.
Interesting that there will probably be ronin oni judging by that spider.
I knew from art alone that Kitsune and Tanchyo would be my top choices. Though, quite honestly, I'll likely end up at Elemental plus the last two clan boxes, plus whichever Ronin the fiancee and I decide we need to have right off the bat. They are definitely impressing me with their willingness to change things on this KS.
cincydooley wrote: Good lord I feel illiterate trying to read some of those names.
I thought that feeling was usually reserved for when trying to read Darklands' unit names!
Yamazaru, Tora, and Ijin are pretty much locks for me now seeing the new heroes. Of course I had pretty much made up my mind on them as soon as I saw most of their designs.
Interesting that there will probably be ronin oni judging by that spider.
I thought so to. I'm trying to say some of the words and my uncultured American mouth just doesn't like how the syllables fit together
The SDE cards are just a generic deck - they will let you adapt any hero you want into either a melee hero or a ranged hero and use any clan as a "ninja" spawning point for your SDE game.
Binabik15 wrote: Interesting how the economics of unlocking free content can change
Yup - just like most flailing Kickstarters - they seem to have had a little more wiggle room than they let on.
And my - those are some ... interesting new Ronin. Guessing the spider demon lady is a Ronin Oni. Nice.
And good for them I say! They'd be stupid to not try and stay ahead of their cost increases with the SG spacing. It shows just how much they've seemed to have and how their plan to get people hooked with minimal information and many add-ons failed. I like that. I like Soda Pop as well, their FK communication was great and the shrine plus creep bundle shows that they listen even during successfull campaigns, which I like. I don't even care if they're motivated my money or the goodness of their hearts It helps their campaign. But the campaign needed help because they seemed to be, well, a little greedy. That I don't like.
But they're seemingly doing their best to change their mistakes and that is great. And hopefully a lesson for the SDE Legends KS as well. The increased activity in the comments section alone is remarkable, fonally gameplay informations.
PS: Even the mighty CMON had to drop their ridiculous asking price of "1 guy for ten dollars" for Rum and Bones. I wish SP was forced to do that as well. Not for the campaign, no, I just think it's a ridiculous price for a small PVC mini but that rooster Ronin is pretty cool
FK did $25k SGs up to $500k, and that was the model SPM were hoping for with NAS. NAS is funding about half as fast as FK, so they need SGs to be closer.
In all likelihood, SPM already has the designs for all 6 Clans, etc. ready to go, just pull the trigger, but they have 30 days to fill, and the tooling cost is fairly high. It is baffling that they are going double uniques, when they really need to get all 6 Clans unlocked. They could save a round of uniques for later.
Schmapdi wrote: The SDE cards are just a generic deck - they will let you adapt any hero you want into either a melee hero or a ranged hero and use any clan as a "ninja" spawning point for your SDE game.
It's pretty clever how they did it, really.
Shame though - with so many heroes, etc I'd buy it if it came with individual SDE cards for them. As it is, I'm thinking it's a pass for me.
Schmapdi wrote: The SDE cards are just a generic deck - they will let you adapt any hero you want into either a melee hero or a ranged hero and use any clan as a "ninja" spawning point for your SDE game.
It's pretty clever how they did it, really.
Shame though - with so many heroes, etc I'd buy it if it came with individual SDE cards for them. As it is, I'm thinking it's a pass for me.
I guess. I will point out that there are currently 21 heroes for SDE, and that number is going to more than double in the next few months as SDE:FK stuff comes out. So that'll be nearly 50. There will also soon be 12 spawn points, 15ish mini bosses, 4 bosses and 3 different tile sets. I.E. you could play 5 games of SDE a day for the next 20 years and never play the exact same game twice. Adding another 30 heroes (plus spawns, etc) from NAS would seem to be a bit of overkill IMO. And would probably be pretty hard to do without getting a lot of overlap of existing (or future) SDE stuff.
The official reasoning (aside from it saving them a buttload of work) is that they didn't want to box themselves into a corner when it came to designing the "far east" region of the world SDE inhabits.
Schmapdi wrote: The SDE cards are just a generic deck - they will let you adapt any hero you want into either a melee hero or a ranged hero and use any clan as a "ninja" spawning point for your SDE game.
It's pretty clever how they did it, really.
Shame though - with so many heroes, etc I'd buy it if it came with individual SDE cards for them. As it is, I'm thinking it's a pass for me.
I guess. I will point out that there are currently 21 heroes for SDE, and that number is going to more than double in the next few months as SDE:FK stuff comes out. So that'll be nearly 50. There will also soon be 12 spawn points, 15ish mini bosses, 4 bosses and 3 different tile sets. I.E. you could play 5 games of SDE a day for the next 20 years and never play the exact same game twice. Adding another 30 heroes (plus spawns, etc) from NAS would seem to be a bit of overkill IMO. And would probably be pretty hard to do without getting a lot of overlap of existing (or future) SDE stuff.
The official reasoning (aside from it saving them a buttload of work) is that they didn't want to box themselves into a corner when it came to designing the "far east" region of the world SDE inhabits.
Sure. But then, do you know how many Zombicide heroes there are at this point? Doesn't seem to hurt that game or its sales, and you don't see a lot of upset people about that. But like I said, I'm not butthurt, but I'm not super-interested in this particular game on its own merits.
- But if it came with enough SDE utility I'd buy it anyway, so I do see it as a bit of a shame. As opposed to something that triggers The Red Mist, you understand...
Glad they introduced more intermediate goals since it was dragging a bit. Clever move.
I think the sweet spot for this will be around 160 with all the clans, the individual characters at 10 each has little value per mini.
I was also thinking if there should not be an option to buy just one shrine pack, one could buy say a water shrine and paint it in a way to form the 7th ninja clan? The minis are already there just a small facelift with a paintjob would do the job.
This has got me wanting to convert up some Mini Ninjas (Futo, Hiro, Tora, Shun, Suzume, and Kunoichi). Anyone have any good ideas for parts (other than models from Ninja All-Stars (as there are a few good base models to use in it) or models?
I wouldn't mind taking a coversion stab now to work through the team before the game releases....
My understanding is that all of the characters & Ronin for this will be in the base game's rulebook, correct?
If so, then I genuinely might consider getting two $100 pledges so that I can convert & give alternate paint schemes to the characters/Ronin from the $100 level, turning them into the $10 add-ons.
It would only take adding a greenstuff eye patch, slightly extending the hairline and slicing the baby (unfortunate turn of phrase) off his back, to turn this freebie
into this $10 model
for example! The spider queen might be harder...
I was also considering painting the duplicate trophy either silver (or 2nd prize) or grey with a bit of texturing to make some nice stone statue scenery.
Yes all of the rules for all 12 Heroes and 18 Ronin are in the rulebook so it should be easy enough to proxy/convert them - I already have Kappa, Tengu, ninjas, monks and other suitable miniatures from Impacts! Range so I'm limiting myself to 6 paid add on ronin - Jorogumo is definitely 1
Apparently the gameplay video is finished and should be up today but they are having difficulty uploading it at the moment
Bioptic wrote: My understanding is that all of the characters & Ronin for this will be in the base game's rulebook, correct?
If so, then I genuinely might consider getting two $100 pledges so that I can convert & give alternate paint schemes to the characters/Ronin from the $100 level, turning them into the $10 add-ons
Yeah, it's looking like the "sweet spot" will be $200 for both Master pledges - double SGs will cover a lot of options.
~$15k away from next freebie (and last clan hero) being unlocked. Things have slowed way way down on this one unfortunately, so the campaign has gotten pretty dull. Still inching along though.
OMFG, this month is getting ridiculous. First it's Adeptus Mechanicus now this Kickstarter. This will probably be the first Soda Pop Kickstarter I will back so I'd like to know:
- The previous kickstarters, any problems with them?
- The shipping is an estimate of 20$ for Europe. From past experiences, is this "estimate" true, or will I have a very unpleasant surprise?
Relic Knights their partnership with CMON was late by over a year with terrible communications
but
after they split with CMON their Forgotten King KS was well run with great communications and is delivering (wave 1) at the moment only about 3 months late
they charges actual shipping costs which to the UK came to $26 for Forgotten King (main game box and a couple of add ons)
PsychoticStorm wrote: So whats the difference between the two sets, or whats is the point in getting the ninja master set?
<== click for giant flowchart
Elemental Master - NO (0) generic ninja
+ more (44) Clan ninja (4x 11 per Clan)
+ more (4) Clan uniques
+ more (4) Clan Oni
= fewer (52) total models (4x 13 per Clan)
+ more (28) different sculpts (4x 7 per Clan)
Elemental Master has more "cool" stuff, with far fewer duplicate sculpts
Ninja Master + more (36) generic ninja (4x 9 generic)
- fewer (22) Clan ninja (2x 11 per Clans)
- fewer (2) Clan uniques
- fewer (2) Clan Oni
= more (62) total minis;
- fewer (19) different sculpts (2x 7 Clan ninja + 5 generic ninja).
Ninja Master has more total models, using fewer different sculpts
Cool Mini or Not published Soda Pop Miniatures' Relic Knights. CMoN ended up delivering the models a year late, as they transferred the line over to SPM / Ninja Division. It is interesting to note that, unlike their other KS, CMoN did not do 2 waves of shipping on this product line, but rather held all fulfillment until the end, to minimize their shipping costs. Inside baseball strongly suggests that CMoN deliberately delayed RK fulfillment and used the profits to fund development of their in-house Wrath of Kings game, which they Kickstarted as a direct competitor to RK (and Confrontation).
Palladium Books contracted Ninja Division (SPM's publishing arm) to develop miniatures for Robotech RPG Tactics. Palladium delivered Wave 1 a year late. One reasonably assumes the ongoing delay is due to institutional incompetence by Palladium, rightsholder interference by Harmony Gold, and other Japanese Macross approvals. The Wave 1 models look good when assembled, but there are more parts due to undercuts in the anime designs. SPM/ND has been silent on this project for quite some time, and one assumes some sort of falling out here.
Excuses, excuses... What about when they are running the show?
Soda Pop Miniatures launched and managed their Forgotten King Kickstarter to tremendous success ($1.15M+ vs CMoN's AQ at $770k), and is currently delivering Wave 1 globally; many backers have received their stuff, and the majority should receive them bu the time the NAS KS closes. Forgotten King Wave 1 is roughly 4 months delayed vs the Dec 2014 estimate, and Wave 2 will close perhaps 2 or 3 months from now. Forgotten King initial delivery is later than desired, but final delivery is sooner than expected.
While I have never met them in person, I have been watching them since they first got "big" with the original Super Dungeon Explore preorder through CMoN. In the current and previous KS, SPM has been reactive to Backer concerns and issues, and addresses them clearly and directly. They have made proper and reasonable course corrections, which is very satisfying to see. SPM has been religious about providing KS updates every Friday since the KS close - they are, by far, the most professionally-managed of the dozen-odd KS that I have backed or split.
PsychoticStorm wrote: So whats the difference between the two sets, or whats is the point in getting the ninja master set?
Ninja Master - NO (0) generic ninja
+ more (44) Clan ninja (4x 11 per Clan) + more (4) Clan uniques + more (4) Clan Oni
= fewer (52) total models (4x 13 per Clan)
+ more (28) different sculpts (4x 7 per Clan)
Ninja Master has more "cool" stuff, with far fewer duplicate sculpts
Elemental Master + more (36) generic ninja (4x 9 generic)
- fewer (22) Clan ninja (2x 11 per Clans) - fewer (2) Clan uniques
- fewer (2) Clan Oni
= more (62) total minis;
- fewer (19) different sculpts (2x 7 Clan ninja + 5 generic ninja).
Elemental Master has more total models, using fewer different sculpts
Hum, are you certain about that one? Because I'm looking at the pictures, and the ninja master says "PICK 2 UNLOCKED CLANS" while the elemental master picture says "PICK 4 UNLOCKED CLANS"
They are crazy if they don't turn all the monster designs into an SDE spawnpoint. With the current array of monsters, they could grab 30$ from 6000 TFK backers. Being less than 2000 current backers leaves a good amount of room to sell a monster spawn to SDE people and increase the printing of models which has to help with costs.
Got my wave 1 of Forgotten King today - everything is pretty excellent from what I've gotten to look at (had to work late). Waaay more than I was anticipating. And I still have a few warbands/etc coming in wave 2!
Schmapdi wrote: Got my wave 1 of Forgotten King today - everything is pretty excellent from what I've gotten to look at (had to work late). Waaay more than I was anticipating. And I still have a few warbands/etc coming in wave 2!
TFK are not bad... Still some scale issues in the heroes and a steady size creep upwards still. Virtually all the heroes are larger than the pumpkinheaded Von Drak (when you compare to the shrinkray roxor and inconsistent core set) Many of the heroes are super tall, and the Fae Alchemist is amazonian... Quite possibly the beefiest, largest headed hero to date (move over sister of light)
While scale inconsistency isn't really a huge deal, for a group of rabid fans (like most company-specific fans) who constantly compare to other model lines like AQ, they complain about scale issues when SDE is rife with them and they haven't seem to been resolved, or at least been made consistent.
Also, Bendy weapons is a problem with Board Game Plastic. Unlike other materials, they never can be straightened. I do feel like Sodapop might have learned their lesson because almost all the NAS designs have thick swords and really thick poles (which can lead to kung-fu grip looking sculpts) but I feel it is needed. Many of the models are functionally holding spaghetti and can never be 'fixed' with re-bending. Personally, I drill out hands, put plastirod in and then put a staff topper. Plastirod won't bend or break and fixes the model. The ones which are harder to fix are swords. The wandering minstrel is particularly bad with his thin sword.
Overall, the models are good, and mine were very clean from a mold line POV. The only one which really struck me as 'odd' was the questing Knight who is holding his lance in an overhanded 'stabbing' motion. Maybe he is throwing it? You throw that type of lance? I dunno... It bothers me. I might need to make him hold a lance like a lance.
The clear tokens... When compared to my AQ tokens, I am not impressed. The SDE ones are too small. Period. They become too small to be useful. I have had experience with tokens which are too small for games, especially 3D ones. I will probably load up on AQ heart and Skull tokens and continue to use craft-store bottles for potions. Good news is that those potions might make good use for modeling because they are so small. Not a huge issue, but seems like a loss.
The Fluff book is pretty neat. But raises some questions from a NAS POV from those who are trying to defend the lack of SDE crossovering because the fluff for that area not only directly speaks of everything talked about in NAS, but even looks exactly like the temple board from NAS. It would be like trying to say Mordheim has nothing to do with Warhammer Fantasy Battles. When the Fluff for SDE directly talks about fighting TENGU, and we have the TENGU model in NAS... How are we supposed to somehow think there is not explicit crossover. I understand rabid fans want to pointlessly stick up for Sodapop and they can never do wrong, but you can't blame SDE fans from wanting NAS sculpts for SDE content without wanting to homebrew rules or spend 250$ on a game they may not want. So the fluff book raises more questions than it answers.
As for the new rules... My first reaction was there is a lot of 'deckbuilding' going on... A lot more than I expected. And they look like they straight lifted a bunch of things from Myth, like the boss darkness deck now that every boss has a deck of actions and monster AI. My first reaction was it was like watered down Myth adventuring mode with no quests. I need to play through the Arcade mode but it seemed odd. Worth a shot tho. Pets seem pointless and tacked on for the 'squeeeeeeee look at my pet figure' bonus. It may be that SDE remains the 40k of Dungeoncrawl boardgames... not a particularly good ruleset, no real balance or competitiveness. The consul will always be the game owner and will need to pull punches to facilitate gameplay but in general it is a fun way to push fun models around a table. A 'beer and Pretzels' game... not a competitive game. Boardgamers will probably dislike it compared to AQ but transitional RPGers may like it.
It does call into question Sodapop's ability to write quality rules... especially with the mathhammer not shaking out for the public beta and the dice mechanics being discussed for NAS. Sounds like someone came up with a 'cool' dice mechanic and built a game around it and is now resisting when it is being put through its paces. (IE: more dice = weaker attack) I will need to play some TFK to see of most of the balance and general things which make it 'fun but not competitive' game has been resolved to see if I trust NAS being supposedly the next arena sport game to replace Bloodbowl. It is going to be hard to compete with AQ for a PVP game session with cute chibi models.
I completely agree that SPM is trying to unnecessarily force a new dice mechanic in NAS, along with artificial separation from SDE, and that it was not thought through well. Not to mention the direct use of SDE FK Ninja Candy/Cola for NAS.
It is funny how tiny and petite the Roxor models are compared to everything else. But it's OK for some models to be taller / shorter - it's not like all humans are the same height / build.
Yeah - I noticed the Alchemist was pretty beefy - but I'm not particularly bothered by the scale issues in SDE. I guess the super deformed nature hides it well - since I'm pretty picky about it normally.
I do have a few bendy swords/spears/axes - but I've never had a problem straightening them in the past. Or are you saying they switched to a new material for TFK?
And no - SDE doesn't strike me as particularly competitively balanced. (Or really as the type of game competitive gamers are going to be wanting to play). But when I read the beta rulebook for the 2.0 rules I remember thinking they had cleaned things up quite a bit? Haven't gotten a chance to look at the final version. I spent 2+ hours last night just swapping out all my 1.0 cards for the 2.0 versions. I need to stop and get more card sleeves tonight!
I've not look at NAS' rules closely - but I agree the mechanics seem a little ... off to me.
I do have a few bendy swords/spears/axes - but I've never had a problem straightening them in the past. Or are you saying they switched to a new material for TFK?
The weapon isn't think enough to retain a shape and will bend with minimal pressure (IE: foam in a case). If things are thick enough, once 'bent back' they keep the shape. I just know the centaur's spear, the Minstrel's sword, some of the candy swords, and TFK's staff are all pretty bent and flimsy. I need to sit down and see how recoverable it is. I know many of the monsters have polearms so I need to see those as well. Also, the minstrel seems to be holding the sword flat-side to face, which differs from the art. So it may be I just have a super warped piece.
Polearm/staves can be fixed with plastirod. Swords are the killer :(
As for material... I can't say for sure. It feels different, but may not be. None of the first gen minis seem this flexible to me. May be the sculpt, not the material. I think I might clean and prep them tonight and I can try to show the problem sculpts and possible fixes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Did you try boiling the bent bits back? That usually works for this kind of material.
Boiling is for making material which is normally rigid, become temporarily soft, so it can assume a new position and then lower in tempt to rigid material. These parts are so thin, that they don't keep shape period. If you push it, it moves and keeps the new space. Sure you can 'bend it back' but you constantly have a lifetime of every-time the model is packed, it will get smooshed in the case and need to be re-bent.
Boiling and re-positioning might work for a thicker piece which is pretty firm but bent, but these poles are thin and just wobbly as hell. I have painted literally hundreds of SDE and Myth models in this form of Board Game Plastic and the issue is when they try to make 'poles' or 'swords' which are too thin. Unlike resin which warps, you can unwarp it because it holds its shape. This stuff is forever bendy when the part of the model is too thin.
I have found using brush-on superglue can give a hard shell to a bendy plastic so I usually do that with blades because you don't lose much detail that way.
I will take pictures... but people who work with these models will quickly see what a joke the centaur's spear and the grobbit's axe is.
nkelsch wrote: I have found using brush-on superglue can give a hard shell to a bendy plastic so I usually do that with blades because you don't lose much detail that way.
This is how I fix thin bendy plastic pieces usually. Typically the pieces that require are staffs, swords, poles, arrows, etc that are thin but don't' have a lot of detail on them. You can usually rig it to hold hold the piece how you want it to be, then using brush-on superglue or in some cases superglue gel and then q-tip to apply into a thin coat. Once it hardens it usually is hard enough to maintain the shape and paints just fine. Depending on the piece, I've also found cutting them off and then recasting a piece using oyumaru to create a mold, then greenstuff or putty to cast a replacement piece and then glueing it back.
nkelsch wrote: I have found using brush-on superglue can give a hard shell to a bendy plastic so I usually do that with blades because you don't lose much detail that way.
This is how I fix thin bendy plastic pieces usually. Typically the pieces that require are staffs, swords, poles, arrows, etc that are thin but don't' have a lot of detail on them. You can usually rig it to hold hold the piece how you want it to be, then using brush-on superglue or in some cases superglue gel and then q-tip to apply into a thin coat. Once it hardens it usually is hard enough to maintain the shape and paints just fine. Depending on the piece, I've also found cutting them off and then recasting a piece using oyumaru to create a mold, then greenstuff or putty to cast a replacement piece and then glueing it back.
After inventory, Grobbits and almost all the Chimera guys are close to a total re-do. The polearms pointing up are thinner than the polearms held downward, but they all crazy bendy. Of the heroes, the only two which give concern are the centaur and Minstrel. I will probably do what I did to fix MYTH:
I have to say, some of the TFK models are just fantastic sculpts. The Trolls are really Gems.
Anyways... Here is hoping they have designed all the NAS models to survive the material. Giving models 1/8 inch thick weapons I THINK will make everything work with the material, which from a majority of the designs look like what they have done. I really hope the ONI have thick weapons so they don't end up like Grobbits. There are a lot of ninja designs which could really fall the fate of the chimeras from TFK which would be a bad thing.
I will take pictures... but people who work with these models will quickly see what a joke the centaur's spear and the grobbit's axe is.
Mine aren't bad. They aren't 100% straight - but above 90 I'd say. The only really bad ones I have are the Minstrel's sword. The Forgotten King's staff at the top and Boris' club. Oh and 1-2 of the little Duckmen's axes.
Crap. Missing Ninja Candy. Is there a contact address to get in touch with SodaPop in this case?
Everything else seems to be there. Going to have to check the KS page and do an inventory. Some of these new sculpts are really nice- I really like the plants myself.
I still think it's a pretty elegant solution. And having spent 3+ hours swapping and putting card sleeves on all my SDE cards this week I'm happy to have such a small and tidy, yet comprehensive addition.
The word you are looking for is "Tanuki" - which is a Japanease Raccoon Dog spirit. Oddly, the model does not conform to established Japanese lore of having giant testicles. Not even in a symoblic sense.
I thought it was a dog - but then the art/sculpt looked more cat like. I was going to call it a Tanuki - but then my knowledge of them is limited to the Mario Bros power-up. So I didn't want to risk it.
I like it - whatever it is. Not a big fan of the other non-human ronin so far. But this one works for me.
I have to say that I've read through their gameplay outlines, and watched the first of the (30 min!) videos, and I couldn't really make head nor tail of what the game is actually about.
It actually took diving into the Beta rules to uncover that the game is structured around playing "Challenges", each of which has unique rules, setup, and victory conditions - so all of a sudden, those "Move the loser by 3 spaces/stun them" combat results start making a bit more sense. I'm still not sure the dice mechanic is "good" though, as opposed to "different".
It actually took diving into the Beta rules to uncover that the game is structured around playing "Challenges", each of which has unique rules, setup, and victory conditions - so all of a sudden, those "Move the loser by 3 spaces/stun them" combat results start making a bit more sense. I'm still not sure the dice mechanic is "good" though, as opposed to "different".
Some are saying the dice mechanics are flawed, using probabilities so that they can "prove" they're right.
I would say it's Bloodbowl with Ninja (and without a ball, who cared about it anyway ). You can play a game with no ties with the others, sure, but the true interest lies in "Tournament Leagues" system.
Hattori Hanzō (服部 半蔵?, ~1542[1] – November 4, 1596), also known as Hattori Masanari (服部 正成?), was a famous samurai and ninja of the Sengoku era, credited with saving the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu and then helping him to become the ruler of united Japan.[2][3] Today, he is often a subject of varied portrayal in modern popular culture.
As a famous historic figure, he shows up in plenty of books, movies, games, etc.
Me like! I'm really liking the more traditional Samurai/Ninja sculpts this campaign a lot more than the more out there stuff like the Kappa/Ghosts/etc.
And what a shock, those are exactly the things they're charging $10 a go for, rather than including free! That and the female characters.
I still find it baffling they they're looking to charge $13 for these at retail - they are nice boardgame pieces, mass factory produced at a "surprising for the medium" level of quality. Tannhauser & X-Wing at least have the excuse of prepaints costing more, and actually include a fair wodge of fancy cardboard, rules and even new scenarios with their character packs.
Still, they are being quite consumer-friendly by including all of the rules in the base game, so subbing stuff in won't be hard! And buying 2 100$ pledge levels does give you a lot of surplus characters to convert into the missing ones.
Bioptic wrote: And what a shock, those are exactly the things they're charging $10 a go for, rather than including free! That and the female characters.
I still find it baffling they they're looking to charge $13 for these at retail - they are nice boardgame pieces, mass factory produced at a "surprising for the medium" level of quality. Tannhauser & X-Wing at least have the excuse of prepaints costing more, and actually include a fair wodge of fancy cardboard, rules and even new scenarios with their character packs.
Still, they are being quite consumer-friendly by including all of the rules in the base game, so subbing stuff in won't be hard! And buying 2 100$ pledge levels does give you a lot of surplus characters to convert into the missing ones.
Since Sodapop doesn't make exclusives, and due to us finally seeing the retail costs for TFK, you can basically pass on virtually all blacksmith add-ons in their campaign. You will be able to get every 12.95$ hero at retail for 20% off (more if the game gets a bad launch or reputation) usually at the same time as KS deliveries or even before.
I fully expect to be able to get all of these for 25-30% fairly soon off ebay and other discounters.
I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.
The thing about this campaign is there has been virtually ZERO reason to raise my pledge... The 100$ pledge is barley a deal and is kinda 'ok' so I pledged. All the Blacksmith Heroes are Rip-offs and due to the 'no exclusive' position, there is zero drive for me to back now and not wait until either the PM or retail. When they went to the Double Pledge, there was reason to consider going to 200$, but again, zero reason for me to increase further. That is why this campaign has been stagnate. All of the growth is via getting new backers, not making new items to justify more pledging. When people come in saying 'I set 400$ aside for this!' and can barley find a way to justify spending half of that, it seems like leaving money on the table.
Also, Bioptic is right. The free items are things which won't have mass appeal. Also, no one needs duplicate clan heroes. People see those as zero value even if they claim it is a 12.95$ retail value. (the truth is, at retail, the clan boxes will have 2 heroes, a full clan and 2 ONI for 40$ exactly like the TFK ones are so pretending they are bonuses now is kinda a joke.)
I am in for the 200$, but I still feel like they are ripping us off with fake Blacksmith and stretch goals. This campaign mirrors Bunnies vs Zombies where they felt entitled to backers and spent the first 20 goals providing models via stretches which were needed to play the basic game. As you can see, it wasn't until the second major stall did they actually begin adding real value to the core pledge, the rest was unlocking expensive Blacksmiths which backers SHOULD wait until retail or completing incomplete clan boxes, which if the KS was going to make them incomplete due to lack of funding, backers SHOULD wait until retail to get the complete boxes for 32$
80k Shrines = Fake goal, were going to be int he core box regardless, needed for gameplay
125k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
150K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
175k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
Campaign stalls, people see fake goals and the pace isn't meeting expectations to unlock all the items which had to be created or else retail launch would have been a failure. Clan Oni being fake goal reaches a boiling point so they all become added. 190k Ronin = First Free model which actually adds value.
200K Clan Oni = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
215K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
225k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
235K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
250K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
265k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
280K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
More stalling... People see a spade as a spade... 300k Trophy = Possibly adds value...
310k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
325k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
340k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
350k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
265k Lanterns = Possibly adds value... May or may not be required for core gameplay
380k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
390k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
400K Double Oni = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
420k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
1500 Backers New Clan = Possibly real, as if they were going to launch retail with 4 clans... No value added to the 100$ pledge
1600 Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
1750 Backers New Clan = Possibly real, as if they were going to launch retail with 4 clans... No value added to the 100$ pledge
1900 Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
2100 Ronin = First Free model which actually adds value.
2250 Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
2500 Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
2015 has been the year of more Savvy backers who have figured out that often they can get KS models at retail BEFORE it hits them from the company, often for 30% off but also can identify fake stretch goals and fake funding goals so 'funded in 3 hours' means nothing. And we can see which companies are adjusting and which ones are not.
I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.
Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.
I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.
I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.
Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.
I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.
You can also see in TFK... I had incentive to buy a 30$ warband because it was COMPLETE and by doing so, I was helping guaranteeing myself added-value to the 100$ pledge with almost every other stretch. Virtually no 'fake' goals apart from potentially the pets. Every single stretch either directly added value to the core 100$ pledge, or was (at the time unknown MSRP) at least a somewhat expected discount of a retail item which helped feed into the large numbers of stretches. I would plunk down money for Ronin in a second if I felt It would help me get a 5th clan as part of my core pledge. Not to unlock a hero or oni which has to be part of the box at retail or else look box-poor compared to their TFK counterparts.
TFK Campaign for comparison:
100k Pets = Possibly Real... Probably added a mechanic to the game they already planned to do.
125k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
150k Candy pet = Free model which actually adds value.
175k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
200k Free Spawn = Large group of Free model which actually adds value.
225k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
250k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
275k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, But seemed to be creating something of game value (later merged with tiles)
300k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
325k Tokens = Free model which actually adds value.
350k Miniboss = Blacksmith purchase, But seemed to be creating something of game value (later merged with More Giri)
375k Tokens = Free model which actually adds value.
400k Rules = Extra Rules which actually adds value.
425k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
450k Creeps = Free model which actually adds value.
475k Art = Upgraded game components which actually adds value.
500k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
525k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
550k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
575k Miniboss = Free model which actually adds value.
Reached the end of Pre-designed stuff, Breaks put on with wider stretches, concepts broken out. 610k Warband = Free model which actually adds value.
640k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
675k Rules = Extra Rules which actually adds value.
700k Coloring book = Fun item which actually adds value.
730k Box = Fun item which actually adds value.
800k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
900k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
While i don't disagree...and I certainly am of the opinion that yes KS is now sorta being abused and we as supporters are figuring out how it works. the Blacksmilth shop is not a complete loss. Mostly cause you save in shipping and those littlle extra charges that come along with from buying in a store. Saving of like....15 dollars. but a "saving" nonethe less
Its not huge ....but if your a completionist...it does help.
However i totally think you ought to throw your analysis up on the NAS backer board top see how it received.
I think the biggest issue is that the core product here is more questionable than SDE - some people find it confusing, some people think it looks fiddly, and there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm around the basic retail box (shrine Ninja only).
People are not looking at the Clans as great bonus content on top of a solid existing game, like the SDE warbands, they're considering them to BE the base game - and the amount of non-Clan extras in the base pledges currently looks a little paltry, compared to other $100 board game Kickstarters.
Also, they didn't have to 'sell' or explain the concept of SDE, as it was an existing product that had been on shelves for years. The blacksmith items there were very attractive to existing rabid fans, because they were already used to buying every single bit of available content - why not just add everything at that point, if it comes as early as possible and at a discount?
rayphoton wrote: While i don't disagree...and I certainly am of the opinion that yes KS is now sorta being abused and we as supporters are figuring out how it works. the Blacksmilth shop is not a complete loss. Mostly cause you save in shipping and those littlle extra charges that come along with from buying in a store. Saving of like....15 dollars. but a "saving" nonethe less
You still pay for shipping?
Whatever TFK I didn't get I'll be getting from Miniature Market. And I'll be waiting to purchase until I have enough items I want to break their free shipping threshold.
If you're not in the USA (or elsewhere with 30% discounters who offer free shipping) the blacksmith shop offerings ARE still pretty attractive,
nowhere near as good value as one or other of the game boxes but that's to be expected
I don't think this is (yet) as good a deal as forgotten king, but then it's only hit about 1/3 of the numbers
if you remove the items from forgotten king down to roughly the same funding point
Plastic wound counters
Dark hero cards
6x Giri creeps
Unique equipment art
Nether Shadow miniboss
Salt Mini-Boss
Pumpkin Patch warband
12 extra explore cards
Colouring book
Boo Booty Box
Kunoichi Candy Hero & Miniboss
Ninja Cola Hero & Miniboss
Princess Coin
and remove these items from the blacksmiths
6 dungeon tiles
Emerald valley warband
Claws of the Wyrm warband
Stiltown Zombies warband
I think the 'value' available is petty similar (the actual plastic in the box actually looks a bit better, the shop items a bit worse)
the big problem is the game itself looks fun, but not as re-playable as SDE, and at least in part designed for league play which a lot of people won't have access too
and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: the big problem is the game itself looks fun, but not as re-playable as SDE, and at least in part designed for league play which a lot of people won't have access too
and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout
I think the replayability issue is what's holding me back. This wants an ongoing league of players, which is great, but tough for me right now.
The dice mechanics make sense now, although there is some necessary rebalancing due to insufficient early playtesting. The resulting game will clearly be better. IMO, the big issue is that SPM / ND has never done a strictly competitive game like this before, so they didn't really recognize the amount of playtesting and balancing required, compared to the beer & pretzels games that came out before.
If I was pretty sure I would play in a league, this wouldn't be a bad game to play.
and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout
What's the major complaint about the dice system? It seems kinda fun to me...
and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout
What's the major complaint about the dice system? It seems kinda fun to me...
hitting the original dice system with statistics (http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4089) some people noticed there were a very few (and it was a very few, not many) occasions that models with a lower DEF value were harder to injure than those with a Higher DEF, it was a real issue but not, in my 'game to have fun' mind anything that worried me
but some were really bothered, and some felt it made teaching/selling the game counterintuitive and thus not something they were prepared to do (Edit: I may sound harsher than I mean to be here, I do understand that this would have made the game impossible to 'sell' to some groups/people and they have absolutely every right to want a mechanic they are comfortable with)
so Soda Pop has bowed to the pressure and are tweeking the mechanic, but in doing so it means they now have to re-balance all the mini and ability costs. It's certainly possible but there seemed to be a time window of only a couple of weeks to do so or miss their deadline for layout....so I worry a bit about either it being a bit too rushed, or them missing a 'slot' and thus fulfilment slipping
The issue is that this isn't strictly "a game to have fun". This is a competitive league game with a trophy. The standard of balance for such a game is critical, and the original design was broken. Soda Pop was wrong to release it without solid mathematical analysis, wrong to claim that initial playtesting was adequate (it wasn't) wrong to claim that their numbers were correct (they weren't), and right to select a non-broken revision to the mechanic.
Yes, you can "have fun" either way, but the first version just wasn't suitable for the sort of league play that they desired.
If they miss the initial delivery slot, then they miss it. The state the game was in would have been a disaster, given the clear intent of the designers.
This project is very rushed, and it shows. I would not be surprised to see a major FAQ 6 months from now.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The issue is that this isn't strictly "a game to have fun". This is a competitive league game with a trophy. The standard of balance for such a game is critical, and the original design was broken. Soda Pop was wrong to release it without solid mathematical analysis, wrong to claim that initial playtesting was adequate (it wasn't) wrong to claim that their numbers were correct (they weren't), and right to select a non-broken revision to the mechanic.
I have to admit, I laughed when I read this.
We're talking about a game with these pieces:
I have trouble reconciling that "this is a competitive" yadda yadda yadda. It's a board game, and I'd hardly call a few outliers that MOST NORMAL PEOPLE THAT WOULD PLAY THE GAME wouldn't even be aware of "broken."
But then again, maybe I'm just looking for different things from my games than these people.
TheDraconicLord wrote: OMFG, this month is getting ridiculous. First it's Adeptus Mechanicus now this Kickstarter. This will probably be the first Soda Pop Kickstarter I will back so I'd like to know:
- The previous kickstarters, any problems with them?
- The shipping is an estimate of 20$ for Europe. From past experiences, is this "estimate" true, or will I have a very unpleasant surprise?
For shipping to Europe your problem will be the addition of import duty and VAT on the cost of the game plus shipping, added to which is a "service" fee. This can add a lot to the cost of the game.
The way around this is to get a friend or relative in the USA to accept delivery of your package and send it on to you opened as plastic toys with a low face value. That's what I did with the Super Dungeon Explore set.
at the end of the day Soda Pop shipped a couple of containers to the UK and (Germany?)EU for forgotten King so they covered all that VAT/Duty themselves and will be doing the same for this one
(but it is something you should always confirm for KS originating outside the EU)
Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.
I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.
For their campaigns? No. For their business? I'd say so.
I'm still not sold 100% on NAS. This is mostly because I have sooo many unpainted Rivet Wars and SDE:TFK minis. If I buckle in the last few days I will only pledge for the base game +2-3 favorite Ronin. I wouldn't do that if I knew that 25% (or more - in some cases) of the game would be unavailable to me to get if I wanted it in the future. With Soda Pop I can put in for a small pledge and know I'll be able to get what I want down the line.
Plus I think people are forgetting that getting 4 clans + base game for a $100 is a pretty fantastic deal from the get go. And while I think every clan box will definitely have an Oni in it - I'm not so sure they'll have the second hero, and I'm pretty sure they won't have the second Oni (though a repeat sculpt holds little value for me).
also - another freebie stretch goal added. Even if it isn't "main-stream."
"No exclusives" is a good thing for SPM/ND, as it ensures that the money they spend developing product drives recurring revenue vs a 1-time bump. While you don't save much money pre-ordering things, you do gain the convenience of not having to shop around and wait. If you pay $2 for coffee, vs brewing your own, then paying upfront for convenience isn't terrible.
It is entirely possible that SDE releases 2 boxes per Clan:
- Clan Starter with 1 Special Character, Chunin, 1 Madoushi, and some basic Kaiken, Kunoichi and Yajiri, and 1 Oni.
- Clan Heroes with 1 Special Character, 1 Clan-related Ronin, 1 Oni, and 1 Madoushi, 1 Kaiken, 1 Kunoichi, 1 Yajiri.
The Clan Starter would be more like the Shrine sets, except it adds an Oni; completely playable, but a little limited in options. Then the Clan Heroes add the more exotic options. This would keep the SKU count down, which was a problem for RK..
I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.
Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.
I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.
Sometime after the RK ks delivered someone asked a question about this on their forum, I believe his name is Deke?
In summary, sales are smaller short term but make more long term. And I have it on good authority from 2 major online outlets that post over at TMP have stated that KS with a ton of exclusives don't sell as well as traditionally released games from companies like FFG, plaid hat, etc. Zombicide seemed to be the exception for them.
Lanterns are a go - next stretch goal freebie revealed.
Also only a little over $5k and 20ish backers away from the next two freebies, the dog ronin and the old lady ronin. Likely(?) to hit those tonight I'd say as we're entering the final rush and picking up quite a bit of steam. We should easily hit all the revealed stretch goals and then some. I'm betting we settle somewhere around $550k - $600K.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dog ninja and old lady unlocked - next stretch goal revealed.
Plowing through a few more stretch goals as we're now <24 hours to go. Final three stretch goals revealed - all freebies.
This last one seems to be this guy: Who is something of a running joke in the comments - I can't say I really understand it.
People are calling him "Village Ninja" (as in Village People Ninja I gather). If's he's a reference to something/someone it's well over my head.
I'm a bit sad there's no second playboard. Though the SDE:FK campaign had a "secret surprise" stretch goal of the zombie bunny (a reference to the Bunnies vs. Zombies game that floundered). So there might be another one tomorrow. Perhaps village ninja is a reference to another future game about bikers?
They'll most definitely hit $500k. I could see it falling just short of the $550k goal - but even then they'd probably unlock via pledge manager additions or whatnot.
With clearly the 550k being the end of planned releases, it looks like they expected this campaign to end up around 900k with planned stretches if they had kept to the 25k goals with the current showings. TFK only really had planned stuff up to around 700k so I don't know if they thought they were going to be bigger or what.
With clearly the 550k being the end of planned releases, it looks like they expected this campaign to end up around 900k with planned stretches if they had kept to the 25k goals with the current showings. TFK only really had planned stuff up to around 700k so I don't know if they thought they were going to be bigger or what.
Honestly, I don't think so. It's not the same as Super Dungeon Explore, that was clearly thought with a lot of supplements. Ninja All Stars could have as well, but you really feel it's a "stand alone" board game as it is.
After all, you mostly buy single characters (ronin) as supplements to your ninja team, where just a box is enough to play (including the Oni).
I do believe they were expecting to have less than SDE:FK. That would explain why there were pledges on the number of backers - because each of them could only spend a limited amount of money on this in comparison with SDE:FK.
I decided to back out - it's not a game I'm likely to play (and I'm trying not to back too many new games to add to the ever growing pile ) I was only really getting it for the SDE stuff which makes $100 a bit much as I'm sure the relevant parts will be available cheaper later on in fact all I actually need is the SDE cards as I have all the minis I need to proxy them.
Schmapdi wrote: They'll most definitely hit $500k. I could see it falling just short of the $550k goal - but even then they'd probably unlock via pledge manager additions or whatnot.
They are just over $455k with 9 hours to go. Yesterday saw $40k, so they should hit $465k.
Hitting $500k would $5k per hour - a $120k daily pace, that we didn't even see on Day 1 when hype was at its peak.
I think $500k is a bit of a stretch, but I'm sure SPM would love to see my under proven wrong.
Ha. I was right on the money! Bakusho Mondai? That's totally Razor Ramon HG.
The guy had a segment on the Bakusho Mondai variety show. The quote for the figure even has him doing his "Hoooooo!" quote.
Look him up on youtube. Stupid funny stuff as you can only seem to find in Japan.
I really want that figure, as he would get a lot of mileage in my household. The whole family knows who he is.
I wish there was more to really attract me to this. The rules weren't what I was looking for and I doubt I can drag enough people into this to play it in a league fashion.
Totally going to get a Bakusho Mondai figure when he hits retail. "Super Dungeon ga asobitaiHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
DaveC wrote: I decided to back out - it's not a game I'm likely to play (and I'm trying not to back too many new games to add to the ever growing pile )
I was only really getting it for the SDE stuff which makes $100 a bit much as I'm sure the relevant parts will be available cheaper later on in fact all I actually need is the SDE cards as I have all the minis I need to proxy them.
I'm basically at the same spot, except I'm keeping my $1 in the hat. Like you, I am feeling like I may have already backed more than I can play, and the pile is going to be growing rather quickly as previously-backed KS arrive en masse this year.
I was also only really backing for SDE compatibility, which isn't really a SPM goal at this time. I like the minis, and the game isn't obviously flawed, but I do need to do a better job at keeping my spending under control and clearing my backlog.
Schmapdi wrote: They'll most definitely hit $500k. I could see it falling just short of the $550k goal - but even then they'd probably unlock via pledge manager additions or whatnot.
They are just over $455k with 9 hours to go. Yesterday saw $40k, so they should hit $465k.
Hitting $500k would $5k per hour - a $120k daily pace, that we didn't even see on Day 1 when hype was at its peak.
I think $500k is a bit of a stretch, but I'm sure SPM would love to see my under proven wrong.
It's now $465k with 7.0 hours to go, so pace has increased to $5k per hour. $500k is in sight, but not yet assured.
Schmapdi wrote: They'll most definitely hit $500k. I could see it falling just short of the $550k goal - but even then they'd probably unlock via pledge manager additions or whatnot.
They are just over $455k with 9 hours to go. Yesterday saw $40k, so they should hit $465k.
Hitting $500k would $5k per hour - a $120k daily pace, that we didn't even see on Day 1 when hype was at its peak.
I think $500k is a bit of a stretch, but I'm sure SPM would love to see my under proven wrong.
It's now $465k with 7.0 hours to go, so pace has increased to $5k per hour. $500k is in sight, but not yet assured.
'Successful' Kickstarter remain somewhat difficult to predict!
No Forgotten King Pledge will be offered in the pledge manager.
Heck, at the rate distributors and retailers are preordering it we may not have it for ourselves, our first print run is almost entirely sold out. So if you want it, I suggest you go preorder it from your friendly local game store before the first print run is gone!
probably not a surprise to experienced KS users on Dakka, but worth passing on just in case (it looks like some in the comments were suggesting it would be a possibility)
No Forgotten King Pledge will be offered in the pledge manager.
Heck, at the rate distributors and retailers are preordering it we may not have it for ourselves, our first print run is almost entirely sold out. So if you want it, I suggest you go preorder it from your friendly local game store before the first print run is gone!
probably not a surprise to experienced KS users on Dakka, but worth passing on just in case (it looks like some in the comments were suggesting it would be a possibility)
I think that is reasonable... The reason you get 30% off retail and free figures is because you gave them cash 10 months earlier and waited. Once your product reaches retail, there isn't much incentive to deep discount for people. Also, the way KS starve the market, I could see companies with trailing infinite pledge managers basically being seen by retailers as a 'feth you' and no incentive to carry their product. So that at least tries to show a commitment to the retailer. (one would hope it would possibly show an eventual world where they can just release gak to retail without a KS and just get full price for it.)
It hasn't gotten quite the bump I was expecting overnight - but I still feel pretty good about hitting $500k.
I'm in for a dollar - but like a lot of people apparently - I'm torn. I do really like a lot of the ninjas/ronin. But I tallied up the number of minis in the elemental master pledge (+ 3-4 of my favorite Ronin) and it's upwards of 90 minis. That's a lot more painting obligation than I'm really looking for atm.
So I'm thinking I'll leave my dollar in and see if I can just get a single clan + ronin (+maybe set of shrine ninja?) +SDE stuff during the pledge manager. If not I'll wait till retail I guess.
Schmapdi wrote: It hasn't gotten quite the bump I was expecting overnight - but I still feel pretty good about hitting $500k.
I'm in for a dollar - but like a lot of people apparently - I'm torn. I do really like a lot of the ninjas/ronin. But I tallied up the number of minis in the elemental master pledge (+ 3-4 of my favorite Ronin) and it's upwards of 90 minis. That's a lot more painting obligation than I'm really looking for atm.
So I'm thinking I'll leave my dollar in and see if I can just get a single clan + ronin (+maybe set of shrine ninja?) +SDE stuff during the pledge manager. If not I'll wait till retail I guess.
There is a big difference between:
*Asking someone to buy a self contained board game to use with a group
*Asking a Dungeon master to furnish an entire dungeon of miniatures by himself
*Asking someone to buy a single army in a multi-army wargaming system
*Asking someone to buy a single team in a sports arena system.
It really is not quite reasonable to ask someone to buy 4-6 teams for a sports game, when it is reasonable to ask someone to buy a complete boardgame. Just different perspectives from people.
I really think they missed the boat not having a 'base game + 1 clan' or something as that is all most people will need. I suspect a lot of 'in for a dollar' might be 'in for 60$' if they could do base game and a clan.
Considering 2 shrines is 20$, and a full clan is 30$, It looks pretty clear this will be a 2-shrine box retail for around 50$ish. I think expecting people to basically furnish multiple teams in a league-based sports game is a bad model.
Oh well. Let's hope the gameplay is good. I seen all the mathhammer and I am not convinced, and I will probably only toss in for all the ronin *IF* there is a chance of sparkleburst.
).
)