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Japanese lady sitting next to me says it looks like a Shiba Inu to her.

If this gets high enough I wonder if we'll see an entire Inu clan thrown in as freebies. That'd be cool.

What'd be even cooler is if the sculpts are all based off of Japanese dog breeds.

Of course, my knowledge of Japanese dogs is limited Ginga Densetsu Weed, which is one the manliest comic/ anime ever made.



...about dogs.

I'm interested in this one - but anyone have a short overview of what the gameplay is going to be like?

Does it look like it will be any fun?

there is a host of video about how to play. it looks like the chibi ninja version of bloodbowl actually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fREz0BOQHis

SPM/ND provided updated Beta rules for review and testing:

Download the Beta Rules
Download the Beta Moon Deck

feedback on SPM's forum

Next stretch goal



Sumo Ronin (aka E. Honda).

I have to say that I've read through their gameplay outlines, and watched the first of the (30 min!) videos, and I couldn't really make head nor tail of what the game is actually about.

It actually took diving into the Beta rules to uncover that the game is structured around playing "Challenges", each of which has unique rules, setup, and victory conditions - so all of a sudden, those "Move the loser by 3 spaces/stun them" combat results start making a bit more sense. I'm still not sure the dice mechanic is "good" though, as opposed to "different".

Bioptic wrote:

It actually took diving into the Beta rules to uncover that the game is structured around playing "Challenges", each of which has unique rules, setup, and victory conditions - so all of a sudden, those "Move the loser by 3 spaces/stun them" combat results start making a bit more sense. I'm still not sure the dice mechanic is "good" though, as opposed to "different".

Some are saying the dice mechanics are flawed, using probabilities so that they can "prove" they're right.

I would say it's Bloodbowl with Ninja (and without a ball, who cared about it anyway ). You can play a game with no ties with the others, sure, but the true interest lies in "Tournament Leagues" system.

The dice mechanic is aggressively different for the sake of being different. I think it sort of works, but not nearly as well as it should.

Not announced yet but its up on the campaign homepage

The scarf conjures up memories of PS2 Shinboi.

I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

Figure is probably more in reference to Samurai Showdown Hanzo, but the scarf just brings back Shinobi memories...

I was thinking Ninja Gaiden?

Say Hi to "Samurai Showdown"'s Hattori Hanzo:

Hattori Hanzō (服部 半蔵?, ~1542[1] – November 4, 1596), also known as Hattori Masanari (服部 正成?), was a famous samurai and ninja of the Sengoku era, credited with saving the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu and then helping him to become the ruler of united Japan.[2][3] Today, he is often a subject of varied portrayal in modern popular culture.

As a famous historic figure, he shows up in plenty of books, movies, games, etc.

I don't know what "Samurai Showdown" is but he looks an awful lot like the guy from SNK's "Samurai Spirits."



How sad is it that we're not getting a Ninja Scroll / Samurai Sprits game?

Has there been any word of the final two shrines?

They could add 1 more shrine to both pledges and that would result in a total of 6 shrines and 6 clans. (5Shrine+2Clan+1Shrine+4Clan)= 200$

next backer goal



That leaves the following Ronin left to be revealed

Benkei
Miyamoto Musashi
Moon Princess
Ondori Clan Kaiken
Sun Empire Wandering Samurai

Although I noticed that Onryo, Yokozuna and Hanzo aren't in the Beta rules.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
and extra Oni

Next stretch goal revealed -




Me like! I'm really liking the more traditional Samurai/Ninja sculpts this campaign a lot more than the more out there stuff like the Kappa/Ghosts/etc.

And what a shock, those are exactly the things they're charging $10 a go for, rather than including free! That and the female characters.

I still find it baffling they they're looking to charge $13 for these at retail - they are nice boardgame pieces, mass factory produced at a "surprising for the medium" level of quality. Tannhauser & X-Wing at least have the excuse of prepaints costing more, and actually include a fair wodge of fancy cardboard, rules and even new scenarios with their character packs.

Still, they are being quite consumer-friendly by including all of the rules in the base game, so subbing stuff in won't be hard! And buying 2 100$ pledge levels does give you a lot of surplus characters to convert into the missing ones.

Bioptic wrote:
And what a shock, those are exactly the things they're charging $10 a go for, rather than including free! That and the female characters.

I still find it baffling they they're looking to charge $13 for these at retail - they are nice boardgame pieces, mass factory produced at a "surprising for the medium" level of quality. Tannhauser & X-Wing at least have the excuse of prepaints costing more, and actually include a fair wodge of fancy cardboard, rules and even new scenarios with their character packs.

Still, they are being quite consumer-friendly by including all of the rules in the base game, so subbing stuff in won't be hard! And buying 2 100$ pledge levels does give you a lot of surplus characters to convert into the missing ones.

Since Sodapop doesn't make exclusives, and due to us finally seeing the retail costs for TFK, you can basically pass on virtually all blacksmith add-ons in their campaign. You will be able to get every 12.95$ hero at retail for 20% off (more if the game gets a bad launch or reputation) usually at the same time as KS deliveries or even before.

Heroes going for 10.36$
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/spm210014.html
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43085/s/spm210012/
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43095/s/spm210504/

Warbands going for 31.96$
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43098/s/spm210507/

I fully expect to be able to get all of these for 25-30% fairly soon off ebay and other discounters.

I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.

The thing about this campaign is there has been virtually ZERO reason to raise my pledge... The 100$ pledge is barley a deal and is kinda 'ok' so I pledged. All the Blacksmith Heroes are Rip-offs and due to the 'no exclusive' position, there is zero drive for me to back now and not wait until either the PM or retail. When they went to the Double Pledge, there was reason to consider going to 200$, but again, zero reason for me to increase further. That is why this campaign has been stagnate. All of the growth is via getting new backers, not making new items to justify more pledging. When people come in saying 'I set 400$ aside for this!' and can barley find a way to justify spending half of that, it seems like leaving money on the table.

Also, Bioptic is right. The free items are things which won't have mass appeal. Also, no one needs duplicate clan heroes. People see those as zero value even if they claim it is a 12.95$ retail value. (the truth is, at retail, the clan boxes will have 2 heroes, a full clan and 2 ONI for 40$ exactly like the TFK ones are so pretending they are bonuses now is kinda a joke.)

I am in for the 200$, but I still feel like they are ripping us off with fake Blacksmith and stretch goals. This campaign mirrors Bunnies vs Zombies where they felt entitled to backers and spent the first 20 goals providing models via stretches which were needed to play the basic game. As you can see, it wasn't until the second major stall did they actually begin adding real value to the core pledge, the rest was unlocking expensive Blacksmiths which backers SHOULD wait until retail or completing incomplete clan boxes, which if the KS was going to make them incomplete due to lack of funding, backers SHOULD wait until retail to get the complete boxes for 32$

80k Shrines = Fake goal, were going to be int he core box regardless, needed for gameplay
125k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
150K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
175k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
Campaign stalls, people see fake goals and the pace isn't meeting expectations to unlock all the items which had to be created or else retail launch would have been a failure. Clan Oni being fake goal reaches a boiling point so they all become added.
190k Ronin = First Free model which actually adds value.
200K Clan Oni = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
215K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
225k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
235K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
250K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
265k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
280K Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
More stalling... People see a spade as a spade...
300k Trophy = Possibly adds value...
310k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
325k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
340k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
350k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
265k Lanterns = Possibly adds value... May or may not be required for core gameplay
380k Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
390k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
400K Double Oni = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
420k Ronin = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP

1500 Backers New Clan = Possibly real, as if they were going to launch retail with 4 clans... No value added to the 100$ pledge
1600 Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
1750 Backers New Clan = Possibly real, as if they were going to launch retail with 4 clans... No value added to the 100$ pledge
1900 Clan Hero = Fake Goal, Based upon Warbands from TFK, would have had to have been in clan box regardless or been incomplete.
2100 Ronin = First Free model which actually adds value.
2250 Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.
2500 Ronin = Free model which actually adds value.

2015 has been the year of more Savvy backers who have figured out that often they can get KS models at retail BEFORE it hits them from the company, often for 30% off but also can identify fake stretch goals and fake funding goals so 'funded in 3 hours' means nothing. And we can see which companies are adjusting and which ones are not.

nkelsch wrote:


I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.

Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.

I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.

 cincydooley wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


I have learned my lesson with Sodapop... I know they don't want to hear it, but exclusives sell models and add backers. And people expect 30-40% off MSRP for the 'joy' of giving a company an interest-free loan and a 9+month wait.

Great post overall, but this is the line that really resonates.

I respect they're not making anything KS exclusive. I don't think it's the best business move for their campaigns.

You can also see in TFK... I had incentive to buy a 30$ warband because it was COMPLETE and by doing so, I was helping guaranteeing myself added-value to the 100$ pledge with almost every other stretch. Virtually no 'fake' goals apart from potentially the pets. Every single stretch either directly added value to the core 100$ pledge, or was (at the time unknown MSRP) at least a somewhat expected discount of a retail item which helped feed into the large numbers of stretches. I would plunk down money for Ronin in a second if I felt It would help me get a 5th clan as part of my core pledge. Not to unlock a hero or oni which has to be part of the box at retail or else look box-poor compared to their TFK counterparts.

TFK Campaign for comparison:
100k Pets = Possibly Real... Probably added a mechanic to the game they already planned to do.
125k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
150k Candy pet = Free model which actually adds value.
175k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
200k Free Spawn = Large group of Free model which actually adds value.
225k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
250k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
275k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, But seemed to be creating something of game value (later merged with tiles)
300k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
325k Tokens = Free model which actually adds value.
350k Miniboss = Blacksmith purchase, But seemed to be creating something of game value (later merged with More Giri)
375k Tokens = Free model which actually adds value.
400k Rules = Extra Rules which actually adds value.
425k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
450k Creeps = Free model which actually adds value.
475k Art = Upgraded game components which actually adds value.
500k Hero = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
525k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
550k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
575k Miniboss = Free model which actually adds value.
Reached the end of Pre-designed stuff, Breaks put on with wider stretches, concepts broken out.
610k Warband = Free model which actually adds value.
640k Warband = Blacksmith purchase, No reason to pledge due to lack of discount from inflated MSRP
675k Rules = Extra Rules which actually adds value.
700k Coloring book = Fun item which actually adds value.
730k Box = Fun item which actually adds value.
800k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.
900k Hero = Free model which actually adds value.

While i don't disagree...and I certainly am of the opinion that yes KS is now sorta being abused and we as supporters are figuring out how it works. the Blacksmilth shop is not a complete loss. Mostly cause you save in shipping and those littlle extra charges that come along with from buying in a store. Saving of like....15 dollars. but a "saving" nonethe less

Its not huge ....but if your a completionist...it does help.

However i totally think you ought to throw your analysis up on the NAS backer board top see how it received.

I think the biggest issue is that the core product here is more questionable than SDE - some people find it confusing, some people think it looks fiddly, and there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm around the basic retail box (shrine Ninja only).

People are not looking at the Clans as great bonus content on top of a solid existing game, like the SDE warbands, they're considering them to BE the base game - and the amount of non-Clan extras in the base pledges currently looks a little paltry, compared to other $100 board game Kickstarters.

Also, they didn't have to 'sell' or explain the concept of SDE, as it was an existing product that had been on shelves for years. The blacksmith items there were very attractive to existing rabid fans, because they were already used to buying every single bit of available content - why not just add everything at that point, if it comes as early as possible and at a discount?

NAS is a much harder sell than SDE, because it's not SDE. But it looks like the game itself is OK.

The question is whether the bundle is worth $100 to me.

 rayphoton wrote:
While i don't disagree...and I certainly am of the opinion that yes KS is now sorta being abused and we as supporters are figuring out how it works. the Blacksmilth shop is not a complete loss. Mostly cause you save in shipping and those littlle extra charges that come along with from buying in a store. Saving of like....15 dollars. but a "saving" nonethe less

You still pay for shipping?

Whatever TFK I didn't get I'll be getting from Miniature Market. And I'll be waiting to purchase until I have enough items I want to break their free shipping threshold.

If you're not in the USA (or elsewhere with 30% discounters who offer free shipping) the blacksmith shop offerings ARE still pretty attractive,

nowhere near as good value as one or other of the game boxes but that's to be expected

I don't think this is (yet) as good a deal as forgotten king, but then it's only hit about 1/3 of the numbers

if you remove the items from forgotten king down to roughly the same funding point

Plastic wound counters
Dark hero cards
6x Giri creeps
Unique equipment art
Nether Shadow miniboss
Salt Mini-Boss
Pumpkin Patch warband
12 extra explore cards
Colouring book
Boo Booty Box
Kunoichi Candy Hero & Miniboss
Ninja Cola Hero & Miniboss
Princess Coin

and remove these items from the blacksmiths
6 dungeon tiles
Emerald valley warband
Claws of the Wyrm warband
Stiltown Zombies warband

I think the 'value' available is petty similar (the actual plastic in the box actually looks a bit better, the shop items a bit worse)

the big problem is the game itself looks fun, but not as re-playable as SDE, and at least in part designed for league play which a lot of people won't have access too

and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the big problem is the game itself looks fun, but not as re-playable as SDE, and at least in part designed for league play which a lot of people won't have access too

and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout

I think the replayability issue is what's holding me back. This wants an ongoing league of players, which is great, but tough for me right now.

The dice mechanics make sense now, although there is some necessary rebalancing due to insufficient early playtesting. The resulting game will clearly be better. IMO, the big issue is that SPM / ND has never done a strictly competitive game like this before, so they didn't really recognize the amount of playtesting and balancing required, compared to the beer & pretzels games that came out before.

If I was pretty sure I would play in a league, this wouldn't be a bad game to play.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout

What's the major complaint about the dice system? It seems kinda fun to me...

 cincydooley wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


and was either hampered by a non-intuitive dice system originally OR will be hampered by a lack of play testing now they've been pressured into changing the dice system with only a couple of weeks before everything has to hit layout

What's the major complaint about the dice system? It seems kinda fun to me...

hitting the original dice system with statistics (http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4089) some people noticed there were a very few (and it was a very few, not many) occasions that models with a lower DEF value were harder to injure than those with a Higher DEF, it was a real issue but not, in my 'game to have fun' mind anything that worried me

but some were really bothered, and some felt it made teaching/selling the game counterintuitive and thus not something they were prepared to do (Edit: I may sound harsher than I mean to be here, I do understand that this would have made the game impossible to 'sell' to some groups/people and they have absolutely every right to want a mechanic they are comfortable with)

so Soda Pop has bowed to the pressure and are tweeking the mechanic, but in doing so it means they now have to re-balance all the mini and ability costs. It's certainly possible but there seemed to be a time window of only a couple of weeks to do so or miss their deadline for layout....so I worry a bit about either it being a bit too rushed, or them missing a 'slot' and thus fulfilment slipping

we shall see

The issue is that this isn't strictly "a game to have fun". This is a competitive league game with a trophy. The standard of balance for such a game is critical, and the original design was broken. Soda Pop was wrong to release it without solid mathematical analysis, wrong to claim that initial playtesting was adequate (it wasn't) wrong to claim that their numbers were correct (they weren't), and right to select a non-broken revision to the mechanic.

Yes, you can "have fun" either way, but the first version just wasn't suitable for the sort of league play that they desired.

If they miss the initial delivery slot, then they miss it. The state the game was in would have been a disaster, given the clear intent of the designers.

This project is very rushed, and it shows. I would not be surprised to see a major FAQ 6 months from now.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The issue is that this isn't strictly "a game to have fun". This is a competitive league game with a trophy. The standard of balance for such a game is critical, and the original design was broken. Soda Pop was wrong to release it without solid mathematical analysis, wrong to claim that initial playtesting was adequate (it wasn't) wrong to claim that their numbers were correct (they weren't), and right to select a non-broken revision to the mechanic.

I have to admit, I laughed when I read this.

We're talking about a game with these pieces:





I have trouble reconciling that "this is a competitive" yadda yadda yadda. It's a board game, and I'd hardly call a few outliers that MOST NORMAL PEOPLE THAT WOULD PLAY THE GAME wouldn't even be aware of "broken."

But then again, maybe I'm just looking for different things from my games than these people.