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Yep Elemental master removes all the Shrine Ninja and allows you to pick 4 unlocked clans instead.

The All Star pledge is gone Ninja Master is now the default pledge if you've picked All-Star you don't need to change you will get 4 ninja shrines plus a choice of 2 clans.

Its more work logistically for SPM

I'm happy with the change as I wanted Ijin and Kitsune clans and wasn't really interested in the set ones so saves me $60. I think I'll go for Elemental master better to have 4 unique clans than a load of generics in different colours.

Meh. Easy to skip if it comes to it. For me at least - looking at my own situation, after all, how many boardgames have I (we?) picked up in the last couple of years? How many have we kickstarted in that time? How many are just arriving now or due to arrive shortly? Is it important to pick up every new one?

You know what Azazelx ...you are a font of wisdom. If this one is a hassle...its easy to skip.


I got SDE FK, Shadows of Brmistone, Cthulhu Wars etc etc to play

The elemental master pledge lets you get 4 clans of your choice instead of the two shrine teams and the pre-chosen starter clans.

So basically, if you had a problem with the shrine ninjas, like a lot of people. You can now choose 2 different clans in place of them.

Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.

They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.

Ninja Master is like "All-Star", but you can choose different starting Clans. If you like Ijin instead of Ika, you pick that instead. If you like Yama zaru instead of Tora, you pick that instead.

Elemental Master trades the 4 generics for 2 more Clans: "quality" (4 Clans) vs "quantity" (4 generic + 2 Clans).

looking all the option over...at this stage...it almost makes more sense to just add on a the pledge you don't get cause that gets you all your basic ninja and all the 6 expansions (that I will assume will be unlocked)

We got 27 days to see how this shapes up or falls apart....

 Dentry wrote:
. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.

No - you don't. If you have "proper" clans - the shrine ninjas only serve to add sculpt variety to your team OR can be used to represent "lesser" ninjas. I.e. - use them until your team gets upgraded, then switch to the fancier minis.

Alternately - they can be used to proxy other teams to see if you like them apparently. They have no special use otherwise.

From the FAQ:

Shrine Ninja have unique quick start rules for fast and simple one off games. They also have no clan insignias so you can use them as any clan, which makes them ideal for trying out every clan. Should you then decide you want to buy a specific clan you can use the shrine ninja to add more model variety.

The new pledges are nice, but brace yourselves for waves of confusion for the next week.

 rayphoton wrote:
You know what Azazelx ...you are a font of wisdom. If this one is a hassle...its easy to skip.
I got SDE FK, Shadows of Brmistone, Cthulhu Wars etc etc to play

Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dentry wrote:
Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.
They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.

It's not butthurt or being mean-spirited for me here. I've got no special love for anime or chibi - which isn't to say that I dislike them, they're okay but not a special selling point, if you see what I mean. But I gots so much to play, and this seems like more of an expensive, complicated one.

Perfectly understandable. Might just be my viewing NAS as en extension to SDE and my collector tendencies kicking in as a result that make it so tempting, then.

Schmapdi wrote:
Alternately - they can be used to proxy other teams to see if you like them apparently. They have no special use otherwise.

Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I missed it. Certainly makes it a clearer decision.

It is certainly more attractive now, even though the 200k SG still is the Oni that you know would've been with every clan. Shrine Oni (and heros?) were hinted at for future SGs. A big based Samurai would be my favourite unlock, though, they're my favourite minis so far.

I want miniature diversity over sheer quantitity (GW starter sets and Space Hulk are still king, IMO), so I'd go with the Elemental pledge and hope for the other two shrines as SGs, because they're good models and I want some, but I wouldn't want a ton of them.

Eh, since I have to pay rent for two places right now I can only throw in a buck right now and see how it develops until the PM (and how the quality of FK minis compares to my rather bad base game SDE ones with their soft, fuzzy detail and tons.of hard to remove mold lines).

I hope it'll be a good GAME, though, that would get me to buy it now or at retail, no matter how the minis turn out. I might actually sculpt a team of Scottish chibi ninjas with "Kiltsunes" if it is fun to play! Only question os if a huge, drunk brute or a Cameronian (of Infinity fame) would be a better "Oni".

 rayphoton wrote:
looking all the option over...at this stage...it almost makes more sense to just add on a the pledge you don't get cause that gets you all your basic ninja and all the 6 expansions (that I will assume will be unlocked)

We got 27 days to see how this shapes up or falls apart....

Yes, I'm surprised that this hasn't been commented on more! If you want all 6 'proper' clans, your options are to:

1) Get Elemental Master for $100, and then add on the 2 remaining clans for $60. Total = $160
2) Get Elemental Master for $100, and then also get Ninja Master for $100. Total = $200

For that extra $40, option 2 also gives you:
- a second copy of the game, which is actually genuinely useful if you're playing a 6-player league.
- 36 generic ninjas, which can be used to bulk out existing teams or to form 10 teams in total for league play.
- 6 extra samurai
- 2 copies of every stretch goal between now and the end of the campaign. Some of these will be less useful than others to have, although it does mean that you can keep the duplicates of uniques in with your SDE stuff! Or sell them on at half the eventual Sodapop store price, of course...

I'd probably be doubling up now if the pound wasn't currently so weak against the dollar. Need to gamble on it being lower by the pledge manager...

 Azazelx wrote:


Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.

This, coupled with the lack of exclusives (which Is that that SPM/ND does this in the long run, but perhaps less so for their KS campaigns) gives me pause.

I'll probably still back it, and honestly, probably in the method Bioptic laid out.

Picking up the 2 pledges seems the best if you're really looking for variety, especially considering there's still clans to unlock.

6 clans and shrine ninjas for 200 isn't too bad.

This is more what I wanted to see in the first place. Hopefully it isn't too bad logistically, since all the elemental clans were going to be add ons anyway (and most likely packaged separately).

Between the two pledges, I think SPM has all the bases covered:

$ 100 Ninja Master for those who are just getting their toes wet and want to experiment with different Clans

$ 100 Elemental Master for those who have specific Clans in mind.

$ 200 double Master for those who want all 6 Clans and lots of SGs.

$200 seems good -- not excited about duplicate ronin however. Would be nice to swap them out for those other ronin.

There are 30 Heroes and Ronin in the rulebook I hope they don't keep going with the Ronin being $10 a pop!

To date we have 6 heroes 1 per named clan, 3 Ronin in the base pledge (if cola is separate) and 5 paid add on Ronin. It sounds like the shrine ninja might get some heroes and Oni at some point.

At least we get the rules so I can proxy some with the Impact! Chibis I have ( I realised this morning I have a complete shrine ninja clan sitting in a drawer)

 Manchu wrote:
$200 seems good -- not excited about duplicate ronin however. Would be nice to swap them out for those other ronin.

This isn't a big deal. It's not like there aren't palette swap characters in video games.

Or "count as".

 Azazelx wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
You know what Azazelx ...you are a font of wisdom. If this one is a hassle...its easy to skip.
I got SDE FK, Shadows of Brmistone, Cthulhu Wars etc etc to play

Exactly my own reasoning. All three (four, actually due to SoB) are sitting in the same stack in a room right now, shrink wrap still unbroken. Incursion is due shortly, with Journey to follow (hopefully) not too long afterwards. I still haven't opened Arcadia Quest. On top of all that, I think Zombicide S3 may have arrived today at my mailing address as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dentry wrote:
Easy to skip, you say? Come now. Let's not be dishonest with ourselves.
They've complicated the pledges a bit and I hope that doesn't translate into longer fulfillment times, but the choice it gives us is nice. And yes, do we need shrine ninjas? We need more gameplay info to make a well informed decision, I think.

It's not butthurt or being mean-spirited for me here. I've got no special love for anime or chibi - which isn't to say that I dislike them, they're okay but not a special selling point, if you see what I mean. But I gots so much to play, and this seems like more of an expensive, complicated one.

So many untouched kickstarters :(

Forgot I KS Incursion, also forgot I kickstarted wolsung until I opened the mystery box the other week.

Getting ready to ship out my untouched Hell Dorado minis I sold. Wrath of Kings is next along with Sails and By Fire and Sword. At least I am getting a new dado set out of all this

Think I should have used the money towards games I actively play. :/

Kingdom Death is around the corner, isn't?

 Piston Honda wrote:
So many untouched kickstarters :(

Think I should have used the money towards games I actively play. :/

Kingdom Death is around the corner, isn't?

One of the nice things about Forgotten King, Zombicide, and Ninja All Stars is that they deliberately cater to non-builders with pre-assembled minis, so you can play right out of the box.

Kingdom Death has submitted to print, but has yet to go through proofs and approvals. June will be tight. OTOH, Forgotten King is shipping now, and Journey : Wrath of Demons is printing for delivery starting in Q2.

I'm much happier now that they've added the elemental master pledge. I really didn't want the 54 shrine ninjas all that much. Now I feel like I'm paying for what I want, cool chibi ninja clans with individual backgrounds.

Now I'd just like to see what the hell the rules are like

Now that they confirmed that Oni are 0-2 I really want a "second Oni for free" SG. They should've at least put in one per clan in the starter right from the beginning, even if the shrines didn't get them without SGs.

And I want shrine ninja SGs, because there has to be a middle way between a ton of them and none. They ARE cool, after all, but clone armies suck.

Soda Pop at least listens sometimes (board plus creep bundles were ace), but they have to with all the weird decisioons for this KS.

Second Oni would be nice. But not as critical as being able to unlock all 6 Clans!

Or any Oni at all I hope it teaches them a lesson for their next campaign, at this rate it would take until day 7 or so to get even a few big guys into the boxes. Bigger isn't always better with miniatures, but people like them and honestly, totally locking out the big bruiser/blocker gameplay option from the core game seems silly. It really does look like they overestimated their own appeal and didn't plan for a slow campaign. They didn't even have rules or a video, but a ton of 10 bucks a pop for tiny PVC heros!

CMON used the new factions as add-ons at slow times instead of SGs for Rum and Bones. Why should Soda Pop/Ninja Division or whoever actually finances it be unable to do the same. I understand paid add-on SGs for really small campaigns and even more oddball characters that would appeal to a tiny segment of the audience in bigger campaigns, but they have zero trouble to finance sculpts and molds for their existing game RK, they can front the costs for (add-on) clans that are NOT sold cheap at all. I know I splurged for all Spawn Points during the Forgotten King Campaign (even though the Stilt Town minis aren't even that good), the chance that a specific clan would totally bomb compared to the others is slim, I think.


You gotta spend teef to earn da teef. Or crump a git ova da snozzwot real gud, ya wimpy git lova.


I

I think the pledge points right now are barley a 20% discount from MSRP which means 'wait until retail' is very viable right now, especially with other good KS running where my money will work harder for me.

While it may become better value 'later', I don't pledge money NOW for hope for value LATER. Until the ONIs and heroes are part of the clans, we haven't reach TFK value. No pledge. If that means they can't meet all 6 clans because they wasted 100k in fake goals because they assumed they had a runaway campaign going? oh well.

If they legitimately can't afford the discounts or package sizes they did for TFK and they lost money or can't do it again, then they need to say that. There is no shame in telling people 'we can't afford 30$ model packs with 12-15 models, a hero and a big guy'. Right now, I don't buy it. I suspect a lot of people don't buy it either.

Mantic and SPM are both struggling right now, and it is purely because people are directly comparing model count and value to their previous KS and wondering why there is less models or less discount.

I hope I can get 6 full clans and 6 full shrines with 2 pitches for 200$. That is where I think I will accept the value for the effort of getting the game made. But if thier next KS is even less value, they are going to become put on the 'wait until retail' list. (hell, they may be there already)

How did you calculate the discount? Could you show your work?

Obviously, NAS is going very slow, undoubtedly slower than SPM expected, but a lot of the value develops over time, and you often don't see the full value until the very end.

Right now, we are a few days into NAS, with only $170k raised. Comparing against a campaign that raised an additional $1M more is a little bit unfair. Dollar for dollar you might compare NAS against Day 1 of SDE:FK, when it had only raised $170k.

I think SPM needs to revise the campaign concept against a $500k-$700k finish, with a lot of information about what the game is. Right now, it's $170k based on being SDE-related, but the game needs to be clearer to backers.

 Manchu wrote:
How did you calculate the discount? Could you show your work?

Well, I can compare pledge points to TFK 1:1.

Emerald Valley currently has:
1 Hero
1 Mini-boss (large figure)
15 Other figures (2 large)

Claws of the Wyrm:
1 Hero
1 Mini-boss (large figure)
12 Other figures (2 large)

Heroes are 10$

Current models MSRP are:
12.95 per Hero
14.95 per large monster
30$-35$ per SPAWN point
60$ for 3 heroes, 2 spawns and 2 Bosses

*So if we believed things cost the MAX cost if you assumed peacemeal, that is 12.95+14.95+30=57.9 Retail.
*If you look at roxor pricing, You should be able to get 2 heroes, 2 bosses and 2 spawns for 60$ retail, which makes the 30$ per package.
*During the TFK they said these will probably retail around 40-45$

Which means internet discounters at 20% mean:
Max possible price: 46$
Cheapest price for similar modelcount: 24$ (20% off roxor/2)
eluded to retail with 20$ off: 36$

So yeah, 30$ for 1 hero, 1 big guy and 12-15 models wasn't too bad compared to existing SDE products and possible future pricepoints. If the pricepoints grossly inflate past these levels, then there will be other issues for growth of the game.

Anywho. Now let's compare Emerald/Wyrmclaw to Clans.

1 Hero
1 Mini-boss (large figure)
15 Other figures (2 large)

VS
1 Hero
11 other Figures (no large)

We are missing both a mini-boss sized figure, and up to 2 other 'large based, large figures', Which is a solid 15$ in retail difference. (which makes the lack of an Oni at launch even more of a joke)

This shows cost creep. Do we think they are really going to sell a clan for 45$ at retail compared to being able to get basically roxor for that?

Basically, this means we are not even close to TFK until at least 1 ONI is included, and for it to be 'fair' compared to TFK, we need at least 1 more clan hero or a few more other models. The problem is, if this is going to retail for 35$ or something as a clan, then that means either the discount we get here is off, or the retail costs are going up compared to TFK and pre-SDE when you can get roxor/vondrak and all his models for basically half the cost compared to new sets.

Hence why I feel all things are 'equal' and I am getting 'enough' discount from MSRP to beat discounters 20% if I get an oni and at least 1 more hero or 2-3 more models. The fact we have to stretch to meet the equal value of the SDE add-ons is a no-go for me.

But YMMV... value is relative. The TFK 100$ always super pledge was a slam dunk with close to 38% discount from retail. Most of the add-ons were less than 10% discount meaning I can get those 10$ heroes potentially for 9.50$ post-launch (or 6$ like SDE heroes are right now all over the place)


edit: comparing 10$/30$ addon to 10$/30$ addon is more than fair. It is apples to apples. You are basically saying 'apples cost more because of a bad harvest' but the issue is retail doesn't care how bad your harvest is. Putting roxor on the shelf for 60$ next to a clan for 45$ with 1/3rd the models won't work and SPM knows it. Funding changes quantity of products made, not the value or price point of retail releases. You release 4 clans instead of 6, not 4 worse value clans compared to similar products from the same company.

edit1: Also, they need to change the campaign splash image to the box art of shrine ninjas. The 'panty shot' has already come up multiple times on social media as turning people off when they see the campaign shared. It adds nothing to the campaign and is hurting the perception of the product.

The SDE economics are more favorable, being tied to a $1.1M finish, vs $170k in progress. If NAS hits $1.1M (not likely), I'm sure their Clan packs would be just as good as the SDE:FK Warbands.

Right now, NAS has 4/6 Clans unlocked, each still incomplete (1/2 Uniques, no Oni), so we have a ways to go.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The SDE economics are more favorable, being tied to a $1.1M finish, vs $170k in progress. If NAS hits $1.1M (not likely), I'm sure their Clan packs would be just as good as the SDE:FK Warbands.

Right now, NAS has 4/6 Clans unlocked, each still incomplete (1/2 Uniques, no Oni), so we have a ways to go.

And if they try to release the clans at retail for 45$ when they sell TFK products for 45$ and Roxor for 60, then NAS will be a fat turd pegwarmer at retail and be in the clearance 30% off in a month.

So 'not enough funding' doesn't excuse releasing poor-value incomplete products at retail. You can produce less clans, but you cannot produce smaller sets of minis with a higher price point per model than other products you release.