Makumba wrote: Our play group is made out of people from the same 2 schools, out of the 4 people I play against 2 are my family and 1 my aunts husbands son and one is my boyfriend. Aside for getting married it is impossible to get more socialized with the 20+people here . And chating will get me nothing. When 7th started I already felt that it is going to suck for me, so I ask If I can use the special characters from the old IG codex . The anwser in every time was "no". Then I tried to play non mealstorm missions, because my army is impossible to win them. The anwser was always "no" too.
And leaving the group is impossible.
It seems to me that you need to save your pennies and buy a twin turbo-laser Warhound Titan, with the expectation that you will be allowed to field it in every game henceforth.
4 S(D) large blasts per turn will do wonders for your IG competitiveness. And at 750 pts, it'll greatly improve the speed with which your IG army plays.
It is always fascinating to read threads like these. They are always populated by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
I myself try to fall in the first camp because it seems all the bitchers and whiners don't actually play the game, just spend their time bitching and whining.
My group has fun with the current rule set. The other day i played watchhammer when my buddy beat a guy at our flgs, blastra militarum beating eldar. It was a blast for all involved (pun intended).
Having looked back at some posts it is clear that several of you admit to not playing warhammer 40k which then brings up a question. Why are you so obsessed with bitching and whining about a game you don't even play? Its like a cult of complaining with you heretics.
There is also the rather funny ramification of you being tfg in that your bitching ends up leading people, such as myself before i really got into the hobby, to ignore negativity. When you realize that many, if not most, of the comments that hate on all things GW are coming from tfg who doesn't even play, suddenly all negative comments lose credibility, true or not. Add in the ridiculousness of your "sky-is-falling" narrative and it becomes apparent that many if not most negative comments are exaggerated if not false.
In the end im going to go and enjoy the game, and avoid playing with tfg like you.
Tankman131 wrote: The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
You're forgetting the part where the people that are completely happy with 40K also agree with Hitler and they eat puppies.
Or we could, you know... actually listen to what the other side is saying and not have to COMPLETELY FABRICATE WHAT THEY ARE SAYING
Did you forget the part where many are long time players, recently losing interest in 6th and 7th time frames? Or that they actually have detailed reasons on why the current meta is something they have a distaste for. Where most talk about 5th as a decently balanced set.
Tankman131 wrote: It is always fascinating to read threads like these. They are always populated by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
I myself try to fall in the first camp because it seems all the bitchers and whiners don't actually play the game, just spend their time bitching and whining.
My group has fun with the current rule set. The other day i played watchhammer when my buddy beat a guy at our flgs, blastra militarum beating eldar. It was a blast for all involved (pun intended).
Having looked back at some posts it is clear that several of you admit to not playing warhammer 40k which then brings up a question. Why are you so obsessed with bitching and whining about a game you don't even play? Its like a cult of complaining with you heretics.
There is also the rather funny ramification of you being tfg in that your bitching ends up leading people, such as myself before i really got into the hobby, to ignore negativity. When you realize that many, if not most, of the comments that hate on all things GW are coming from tfg who doesn't even play, suddenly all negative comments lose credibility, true or not. Add in the ridiculousness of your "sky-is-falling" narrative and it becomes apparent that many if not most negative comments are exaggerated if not false.
In the end im going to go and enjoy the game, and avoid playing with tfg like you.
It must be a nice dimension you live in where anyone who disagrees with you is just a "bitcher and whiner who isn't actually a part of my hobby."
I'd imagine thinking that way makes it easy to dismiss anything anyone says without having to make an argument or give a reason beyond "I'm happy so it's not my problem."
Back here in the real world, we have a more nuanced view of subjects, such as the possibility of enjoying something in the past but not finding it satisfactory now, or seeing the potential in something and feeling frustrated that development seems incapable or unwilling to tap into it. Here, I'll give you an example:
I've always been a big fan of the creative side of tabletop gaming, and the aesthetic of 40k appeals to me in a way that pretty much no other game does. So when I started, I was very excited about learning the rules and playing whenever I could. My group was small, and we all learned around the same time so for the most part things were relatively cool. However, as the game developed over the next few years, we suddenly found that many match-ups we played were horribly one-sided. We tried our best to make it work, but my group didn't feel confident enough to write house-rules on our own (since we were all new enough that we couldn't do impartial testing of whether rules were actually balanced or just reactionary to our highly-specific 5 person meta). Moreover, the increase in rules bloat going from 5th to 7th meant that prep time for games took much longer - and since we only had 1 table, it often resulted in playing bizarro 2v2s (which dragged on horribly) or just watching 2 people play while everyone else went off to do MTG. This combination of problems, on top of the high cost to play, drove everyone away from the game. We all enjoyed the concept, but the execution was so flawed none of us wanted to keep investing in the hobby; we got more value from other forms of entertainment.
If you want a happy ending... I ended up finding BFG which I am enjoying immensely. You can really tell that Andy, Gavin, and Jervis really put their heart and soul into making the system work so elegantly, even with a huge amount of complexity.
So, TL;DR: Nothing is black and white, no matter how much you want it to be.
Tankman131 wrote: One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
That's an odd generalisation.
Seeing flaws in something doesn't always preclude having fun with it. Nor does 'realising that it's a game' preclude seeing any flaws and wanting them to be fixed.
What you have done is demonstrated just why so many people have issues with these sorts of discussions - they try to paint everyone into these black-and-white categories that simply don't hold up to actual scrutiny.
Tankman131 wrote: The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.
Makumba wrote: Our play group is made out of people from the same 2 schools, out of the 4 people I play against 2 are my family and 1 my aunts husbands son and one is my boyfriend. Aside for getting married it is impossible to get more socialized with the 20+people here . And chating will get me nothing. When 7th started I already felt that it is going to suck for me, so I ask If I can use the special characters from the old IG codex . The anwser in every time was "no". Then I tried to play non mealstorm missions, because my army is impossible to win them. The anwser was always "no" too.
And leaving the group is impossible.
It seems to me that you need to save your pennies and buy a twin turbo-laser Warhound Titan, with the expectation that you will be allowed to field it in every game henceforth.
4 S(D) large blasts per turn will do wonders for your IG competitiveness. And at 750 pts, it'll greatly improve the speed with which your IG army plays.
Good luck.
No FW here. So saving for a titan won't help me, as I won't be able to play with it.
You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.
This is so true. I also play some infinity and some warmahordes. I play cygnar without the uber jack, for like a year I couldn't get my hands on some realy must have models, and yet I never felt that I have 0% chance to win. Even games where I lost, I learned new stuff and the games were fun. Infinity is great, we don't have enough terrain for it, but the games are never boring and realy dynamic. And there is always some actual narrative to the games, because of the missions. In warmahordes it is even better, because scenario packs represent different fronts and you feel like your actualy taking part in a war.
With w40k, the only thing one learns is that math does not lie, nor is magic.
I just wanted to say the people who complain the most about 40k don't necessarily hate it, and the people who want to applaud it often don't actually play many games.
I really hated 6th edition rules and don't actually play 7th edition (maybe 4 games since it came out.) I do play other editions at my FLGS b/c I am fortunate enough to have friends with the same sense of nostalgia.
But this gets to the state of the game. We all have things we like, we all have things we don't like, and the difference seems to be more around the way players communicate than anything else. People make too much out of other people's opinions.
It's often the way that people complain because they care.
People like me who played 4th and 5th, then gave up during 6th because of price/rules issues, are not suffering from a personality disorder developed suddenly about three years ago.
We just don't like the way things have been developed by GW, and we are suggesting ways they could be done better to suit everyone.
I just wanted to say the people who complain the most about 40k don't necessarily hate it, and the people who want to applaud it often don't actually play many games.
There is a third camp here however, those of us that dont hate 40k, do applaud (certain aspects of) it and still play regularly.
As someone else said, its not all black and white with two directly opposed camps.
Tankman131 wrote: It is always fascinating to read threads like these. They are always populated by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
I myself try to fall in the first camp because it seems all the bitchers and whiners don't actually play the game, just spend their time bitching and whining.
My group has fun with the current rule set. The other day i played watchhammer when my buddy beat a guy at our flgs, blastra militarum beating eldar. It was a blast for all involved (pun intended).
Having looked back at some posts it is clear that several of you admit to not playing warhammer 40k which then brings up a question. Why are you so obsessed with bitching and whining about a game you don't even play? Its like a cult of complaining with you heretics.
There is also the rather funny ramification of you being tfg in that your bitching ends up leading people, such as myself before i really got into the hobby, to ignore negativity. When you realize that many, if not most, of the comments that hate on all things GW are coming from tfg who doesn't even play, suddenly all negative comments lose credibility, true or not. Add in the ridiculousness of your "sky-is-falling" narrative and it becomes apparent that many if not most negative comments are exaggerated if not false.
In the end im going to go and enjoy the game, and avoid playing with tfg like you.
Others have addressed the main points, but you keep using TFG, I don't think it means what you think it means.
But using your definition of TFG, I must be because I don't actively play the game, I mean it's not like 6th and 7th killed 40k in my area and there's nobody left for me to have a game against, but how dare I keep track of a hobby that I have spent money on, sliced up my thumb when I was younger and still buy Horus Heresy stuff in the hope that I can attract someone into playing that instead. How dare I.
You're right I should just stop caring about something that was ruined in my area because of the mistakes of the owning company and the ramshackle direction they have taken it in.
Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.
Tankman131 wrote: Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.
I see that you're done adding anything worthwhile to this thread then.
Tankman131 wrote: Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.
I see that you're done adding anything worthwhile to this thread then.
It's always refreshing having new posters join the forum and just start insulting everyone for not seeing things exactly the way they believe they are. It's a Dakka tradition!
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If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.
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Tankman131 wrote: The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.
You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.
Holy freaking goodness a Peregrine in the wild!
When did you get back?
Not that a thread like this would not attract. Other than that statement, yep, funny how with X-wing, Battletech, SW Armada... among many others seem to play so much more nicely than 40k.
I love my models, used to love the game, not so much but you know, we just "forge the new rules" to something usable in our group and keep on trucking.
We should not have to do that however, it is not an endorsement for bad rules.
Tankman131 wrote: Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.
Well haven't used the ignore file in a while and look 2 people added to it in one thread suddenly. Amazing...
As a 28 year 40k veteran. I think I've got plenty of time and money invested into this hobby to say whatever I want about it. Laughable when 2 newbs come in and start insulting everyone and acting like only they know anything about the game and playing it. Over 38 years I've played a lot of games in a lot of different scales and genres and 40k is the only one in all that time that I am forced to hide away in my home with a specially selected group of other players who approach the game the same way I do in order to keep having fun with it. I can even take a long out of print game like Blood bowl to the local store and have a better experience playing than I can 40k these days. 40k has never been a perfect game, because they kept changing it too much instead of improving and streamlining it through the years, but the current turn to make expensive new models cheaper in a codex or free to encourage people to buy more of them is killing it. Plain and simple. Sure the power gamers like Tankman and Solous are happy with things because that is how they play and what the game works for now, but it is quite amusing to be told to learn how to play better by someone using a Decurion or scatter bikes/wraithknight army that requires no exceptional thought to make effective other than just putting it on the table because its power is so skewed over others.
Kind of confused while all you other folks who are long timers here and have had many useful things to say through the years are bothering trying to talk sense into these two here? They clearly have zero perspective, and more than that have zero interest in listening. So put them on ignore and move on with the discussion in a useful direction.
Filch wrote: I am wondering how many people have pressed the ignore button on me. I pressed it on myself by accident n dont know how to un ignore my own posts.
Holy gak, I didn't think that was possible. That's too funny. It actually works too. You just don't see your own posts. Pretty comical.
Oh, to fix it, go to your profile. There should be a list of people under 'Ignored Users'. Hit remove next to your name.
Ha! Nothing like the "bitchers and whiners" label to be the battle-cry for those who really do not want a meaningful discussion.
I could throw all kinds of things out there to show my ironclad credentials on commenting on the 40k game but it really is meaningless in the scheme of things.
Due to differing power-levels I can easily "pay to win", it really takes little talent to maximize some of the "top tier" armies.
The whining is where those who took the time to do a proper job painting their armies, taking the time to do a good job get robbed when the next codex nerfs their army.
I have Chaos Space Marines for each chaos god, they were pretty good in their day, pretty much last now.
I have Imperial Guard, they were pretty good in their day, pretty much a support group and little else.
But I have Black Templar, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Imperial Knights... I have to think a little harder to put up a good fight and win but I always enjoyed a challenge.
It is really hard to get a close game in 40k lately, the nail biters are few and far between if I was to "whine".
Those who like to judge I feel have confused 40k for a "competitive" game... oh, please.
Just take the most advantageous rules in the game and push it to the max and ensure others do the same and you might see a little fun for a bit.
If you just like to cave face with the newbies or those who like their fluffy armies really should go play with "like minded" individuals.
Others play 40k for what it is: an RPG sandbox for your favorite armies to clash, even better some crafted scenarios based on "famous' battles from codex or black library stories.
The game has an insane depth of lore, models and materials in general, the problem is that the rules are creaky and are patches on top of patches.
40k may very well be up for an AOS reboot, I am almost desperate enough to welcome it.
master of ordinance wrote: I used to love 40K. I still want too but my army ( IG ) just lack the firepower and manoeuvrability to be able to compete at all with my opponents.
I still love TT games and I enjoy Mordheim, Bolt Action and other such games when I can. But 40K? Its currently in a terrible state.
Worry not, comrade. They managed to make Dark Angels good from the pit they were in not too long ago. Our cardboard armored walking flash lights will have their 15 minutes in the spotlight again.
I think 40k works if you just don't play in the 41st millennium. I would highly recommend Horus heresy to someone who dislikes the codex creep and horrid balance of 40k but still loved the setting. Forge World has done a good job of diversifying the game from beyond Space Marines v Space Marines without breaking the game.
I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.
Talizvar wrote: Others play 40k for what it is: an RPG sandbox for your favorite armies to clash, even better some crafted scenarios based on "famous' battles from codex or black library stories.
Just how is 40k a "Roleplaing Game"?
Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Only War are all very good RPGs but they are VERY different from 40k.
I can see how adding those RP elements would make 40k better in a casual environment but the rules have not encouraged that since 2nd ed. As someone who entered the game at the launch of 5th I have only ever seen the game as a wargame, ie played between two people with clear victory conditions. In it's current state it is still very clearly not a co op experience with a referee and you are not taking on the role of the commander of your force and giving orders as you are just pushing models around. Having said that rules for giving a unit orders then having them get through, be misinterpreted, or the like could be cool. And I can't be the only one who's been waiting far too long to have an XP system in place for your HQs.
MWHistorian wrote: I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.
Out of curiosity, what army did you play before you gave up the ghost?
MWHistorian wrote: I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.
Out of curiosity, what army did you play before you gave up the ghost?
SOB and Vanilla Marines. (Imperial Fists)
Not pictured is my techmarine with Conversion Beamer. And technically, the guys on the right are "Marines Malevolent" "allies."
Below are the Repentia and Penitent Engines. On right is Inquisitor, henchmen and hand made weapon servitors.
Great post, but the people in this thread have the minds made up. They're either unable or unwilling to take matters into their own hands and have fun. If its not done for them they're lost. I imagine this is how they got things done as a child... cry, bitch, and moan till their parents fixed every problem and did everything for them.
People might be inclined to take you seriously if you didn't act like an ass. Straight up man, your post above adds nothing of any value to the conversation. None. Nothing. Zip. Zilch.
This discussion is about the state of 40k. That state is one of unbalanced mess that is only getting more complicated and more expensive while also not being particularly good for competitive games, casual games, and any shade in between. Yes, players can invest tons of effort and compromises to make something work in 40k. But, if that's the case, wouldn't it be incredibly obvious that the state of 40k is flat out bad? If you need to put in that much effort to make the game work when nearly every other game currently on the market works out of the box the way its intended to, it means 40k is not in a good position.
You can like it all you want, and that's fine, but again, seeing as this thread is about the state of 40k, most people agree its not good or at least could be dramatically improved. Your own arguments support that statement too. If the game needs tons of compromising and only playing with close friends and ensuring you're all on the same power level and developing your own sets of FAQs and other houserules, that pretty much makes the game, well, bad.
Oh, posting politely might help your case. Right now, its been a lot of personal attacks and snide remarks with no backing.
First off, it does not make much effort to set up a balanced game of 40k. Second, I question how you can judge the state of 40k off this thread. Just because the loud minority rants and raves on these forums does not mean the game is bad.
Lastly, I'm sorry that you gain nothing from my posts. Possibly you're unable to see someone else's point of view if it conflicts with your own?
If it doesn't take much effort, why do most tournaments have a 15 page FAQ and change core rules of the game? Oh BTW, even with those changes, it's still the same 3-5 armies all over the top tables at every event.
Martel732 wrote: " it does not make much effort to set up a balanced game of 40k. "
Patently untrue, as many different people have different definitions of "balanced".
It is true that people have different definitions of balanced. However, a little communication and social skills will solve 90% of those situations. At the end of the day, social skills is the key. There is no help for people unable or unwilling to do it.
90% is an extremely overoptimistic number. Just look at the disagreement on the boards about which armies are the weakest/strongest. Also, what's the negotiation for BA vs Eldar look like? Do BA get double pts? Triple pts? 1.5 X pts? How bad is bad?
The Eldar player can't bring Scatbikers, Wraithknights, and anything with a D-weapon. The Blood Angel player can bring whatever they want.
OK, I'm an Eldar player. I own about 2600 points of Eldar, with about 2000 points being scatter bikes, Wraithknights and wraithguard. I don't want to play a 600 point game and I'm guessing you don't either. Now what?
TheCustomLime wrote: What should we call this kind of attitude? l2talk? L2negotation?L2Beg? L2Social? Talkmoar?
Most people call it "normal behaviour". Every time you play social drinking games with people, you discuss rules first because they tend to vary by geography and social group. King's cup, beer pong, spoons, whatever.
Online gamer-types are notorious for poor social adjustment, and that's not exactly a news flash
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Savageconvoy wrote: For example, you can't have a table top RPG tournament. It's just impossible. You can set up 40K tournaments. The game is supposed to be set so you can literally bring what ever you want to the field and play a nice friendly game. But it's not like that at all.
I've seen battle reports that focus on custom missions and multi-game narrative, and honestly it looks a lot more fun (to me at least) than typical ITC Maelstrom type games.
I didn't pay a company $130 for the rules to play beer pong. If I did, I would expect them to work as written without a 20 minute discussion with each opponent prior to the game... These comparisons are asinine.
You can't ask this question in a forum. The people happy with the game are, for the most part, not here, and are not vocal. People love to bitch, and they will continue to bitch until everyone dislikes what they dislike as much as they do. dakka has a ton of these people, and they are quite devoted. ready for the backlash
Brennonjw wrote: You can't ask this question in a forum. The people happy with the game are, for the most part, not here, and are not vocal. People love to bitch, and they will continue to bitch until everyone dislikes what they dislike as much as they do. dakka has a ton of these people, and they are quite devoted. ready for the backlash
Did you not read Alpharius' Rule #1 warnings, or do you just think you're exempt because you're on the "right" side of this argument?
/Ready for attacking response (since this is apparently how we justify our arguments)
Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
Labeling other people's opinions as "bitching" isn't the truth at any point. If you feel like you disagree with another poster's points, go after their arguments, not the poster.
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
Got to admit you are right. The way some of the Space Marine and Eldar players whine around here is atrocious.
Yoyoyo wrote: Man I wish evidence changed minds Accolade.
The real issue is people invest ego and emotion in their opinons, at that point they meet light with more heat if you know what I'm saying.
Fair enough. I do understand the core of what you're saying- most of what goes on in the 40k General Discussions ends up going in circles for the most part. I just try to not let stuff "rustle my jimmies" as much anymore.
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
There would be less drama if one side stopped derailing these threads with insults.
Filch wrote: I am wondering how many people have pressed the ignore button on me. I pressed it on myself by accident n dont know how to un ignore my own posts.
Wow. That has to be the funniest thing I've read in a while.
Looks like someone has already posted the solution, so I won't do so again.
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
Well "chronic windbags" tends to infer those people have nothing useful to say... an opinion not a fact.
Remember these forums are discussions of people's hobbies, time we have to fight for out of the busy day that can easily claim priority over the "man dollies".
It is a completely emotional thing motivating people to play and participate, not so much logic so emotions can run high especially when their fun is attacked or made light of.
To do with the General State of 40k: many of older fogies like myself signed-on to 40k around 5th edition or lower (me 2nd edition) which some other poster I would agree were more war-games then than the RPG/wargame mix of "forging the narrative".
There is a wee bit too much random than choice in the current state of affairs than what we had in the past which raises some dissatisfaction.
What is not too helpful either is that the game management have been proving readily that their main focus is on the models not the rules: they have not lied in that regard.
That same focus on "premium" product has begun to alienate players due to their financial situation, some can simply not justify the cost.
We have enough discussions of elitism and the dreaded neckbeard label but GW product in general is becoming more exclusive (which is their intent!) when we all want it inclusive and have more players to play against and support the game.
Passing judgment on those who are obviously excited about a topic seems unfair when we are judged enough by others on this alternative type of hobby.
The real death to any game is indifference, the downward trend in rules will easily change the "immature whining" to silence as we have moved on to other games.
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's be honest.... there's a lot of needless drama and immature whining from certain chronic windbags around here, and it's not hard to tell who's who
Calling a spade a spade isn't an insult. That's truth, son
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.
The game has a lot of problems; bloat, bad rules, allies, power creep, unbalanced, bad tournament game, bad pick up game, random this and that, to much like rock,paper scissors.
I stopped playing the game during 6th, the December to remember was the last straw for me. I relied on pick up games most of the time and the store I went to was about spamming the most broken stuff from your codex. I played orks (since 2nd ed) at that time and just didn't want to keep up with the arms race, it was just to much pay to win for my likings. Had high hopes of getting back into the game when the new ork codex was released but after I bought it, read it,my dreams where quickly crushed. Also the prices on the new models was just to much money to spend for the value. There are certain things I miss about the game but the bad out weighted the good in recent times.
Squidmanlolz wrote: The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.
Some people certainly find the game fun, or it would have disappeared by now. There are other people who don't find the game fun, because for various reasons they find that fun has gone out of it in the past few years and editions.
Without any figures it is only speculation, but I think a fair proportion of the people who find current 40K fun have come to it in the past two editions. In other words it is now the kind of game they like.
There are two key questions:
1. Is it possible to structure the game in a way that would satisfy both groups of players? My answer is yes. Most of what is wrong (IMO) with 6th and 7th edition 40K could be solved by my five point plan. To summarise my view, things like Flyers and Formations should be optional extras, not part of the core rules. This would allow me to ignore them and also allow people who like them to play with them.
2. If GW don't adopt my five point plan, can 40K survive on the audience of people who like its current state? The answer to this is not clear, but given the continuing loss of sales since 6th edition came in, I suspect it may not.
Squidmanlolz wrote: The game's fun. It's clearly not a competitively balanced game at this point, but that contributes to some of the enjoyment. I've recently been playing a lot of Killteam as per the Heralds of Ruin rules and speculating that 40k Endtimes are just around the corner.
Some people certainly find the game fun, or it would have disappeared by now. There are other people who don't find the game fun, because for various reasons they find that fun has gone out of it in the past few years and editions.
Without any figures it is only speculation, but I think a fair proportion of the people who find current 40K fun have come to it in the past two editions. In other words it is now the kind of game they like.
There are two key questions:
1. Is it possible to structure the game in a way that would satisfy both groups of players? My answer is yes. Most of what is wrong (IMO) with 6th and 7th edition 40K could be solved by my five point plan. To summarise my view, things like Flyers and Formations should be optional extras, not part of the core rules. This would allow me to ignore them and also allow people who like them to play with them.
2. If GW don't adopt my five point plan, can 40K survive on the audience of people who like its current state? The answer to this is not clear, but given the continuing loss of sales since 6th edition came in, I suspect it may not.
Anecdotally, 40K seems to be loosing a sub-set of players - tournament players, and club/store pickup gamers. Nova Open 40K attendance was down 30%-ish, whilst overall attendance was up. Blogs and podcasts have closed (I miss the 11th Company) and locally my nearest club which was mostly 40K has seen X-Wing and Bolt Action overtake it
GW seem to be dealing with this by cutting costs and increasing profits on units sold to the remaining player base. How long they can continue down this road is debatable.
They really need to bring fresh blood in to replace the players they're alienating, something that they don't appear to do very well
I think things will be looking up for 40k in the near future, if the Tau stuff is any indication so far. What I really like about it is that it's not raised in power level, but rather just different, in that you gain power in one area, but lose it in another, so you get more choices based on what you want your army to do.
That being said, I'd really like to see GW do some more FAQ style of things for the game as a whole to make it more tournament friendly for a wider audience. They could even call in the ITC guys, and the Nova guys, and have a sort of meeting with them in order to create formats for the game. After all, the thing that saved MTG in the early days was literally creating formats, and they also allow for balance later down the line when you have more data points, without making parts of a codex completely useless, since you can have a "Power Overwhelming" format that allows unrestricted (or very minimally restricted) things to be done within the base rule set (Aka Vintage, which is a format I love), while also having an ITC format that's more restricted for better balance (Aka Standard) and as such they can have official FAQ tournament and play modes that people can reference easily. They can even have things like "Purist" formats where people can't use allies and have to build base codex lists.
Honestly, that's all they really have to do, is tighten up the game, and then use what the community created in order to help their game. Two of the most popular MTG formats is currently Commander and Cube, both were created by the community and eventually adopted by Wizards, and both are predominantly casual experiences.
I wished WotC bought out GW n regulated the business. Then also launch a miniature with cards format.
Fit like 5x25cm bases on the back of a card with tiny portaits and then play Epic WH40k on the go mode. All the stats and rules are on the front of the card so you can pict it up and re read the rules if you forget.
The models would just act like active wound counters in a squad. If you dont have the models then you can use a bean or pebble.
Bonuses for having the models would be the ability to screen and provide cover to units behind it. And also just playing classic wh40k. Also, having models allow you to put them on the very edge of the card to get that half inch range advantage or that difficult angle of fire compared to the permanent clustered X formation on the card. heck lets make it so your models spill off the card as long as they have 2" coherency to spead out of blast templates.
combining 4 cards will give the top down out line of a rhino tank or any large vehicle. the player would need to use tape for 3 edges and leave one so it can be folded up like one of those Risk/monopoly game boards. Again the disadvantages would be the inability for this card tank to not confer cover bonus or line of sight blocking. also the guns do not swivel aside from their limited firing arcs things 3" tall completely blocks line of sight for it to shoot out. Essentially the card vehicles need to be out in the open. Having a model eliminates these intangible limitations.
I started with Dark Angels back in 3rd edition. I played through good times and bad times. 6th edition was a blast and the scene around here was very healthy. 7th edition is slowly killing the game.
The FLGS tournament scene has completely died off. There used to be 10-20 people playing every weekend and now there is only an occasional casual game going on between two people.
As for the casual scene. I used to play a lot. I was excited to use my new dark angel codex but haven't found a game since (not because of the codex but because everyone is either playing age of sigmar or other lcg's, cmg's, or board games).
Filch wrote: I wished WotC bought out GW n regulated the business. Then also launch a miniature with cards format.
Fit like 5x25cm bases on the back of a card with tiny portaits and then play Epic WH40k on the go mode. All the stats and rules are on the front of the card so you can pict it up and re read the rules if you forget.
The models would just act like active wound counters in a squad. If you dont have the models then you can use a bean or pebble.
Bonuses for having the models would be the ability to screen and provide cover to units behind it. And also just playing classic wh40k. Also, having models allow you to put them on the very edge of the card to get that half inch range advantage or that difficult angle of fire compared to the permanent clustered X formation on the card. heck lets make it so your models spill off the card as long as they have 2" coherency to spead out of blast templates.
I think the one big thing GW seems to not do, that most other companies do, is promote an active tournament scene aimed at casual players. Just having a system to track wins/losses at a local gaming store is a huge boon most of the time, as even very casual RNG based games like Hearthstone still display some stats, while having a "tournament" mode that anyone can participate in while gaining minor prizes.
